Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Trump NO SHOW for Don Jr. Testimony, DEVASTATING Developments

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

Ben Meiselas and Michael Popok are back with a new episode of the midweek edition of LegalAF. On this episode, they discuss: the NY Civil Fraud case including testimony about hundreds of millions of dollars of improper profit being earned by trump subject to disgorgment, and Don jr takes the stand; Updates in the Mar a Lago case with the judge considering postponing the trial; updates on the DC election case with the Court re imposing her gag order, and considering televising the case; death threats against Fani Willis the Fulton DA and the DOJ investigating the case; updates in the Michigan and Colorado cases attempting to disqualify Trump from the ballot and more from the intersection of law politics and justice. DEALS FROM OUR SPONSOR! CO-PILOT: Head to https://go.mycopilot.com/LEGALAF to get a 14 day FREE trial with your own personal trainer. BEAM: Get up to 50% off for a limited time when you go to https://shopbeam.com/LEGALAF and use code CYBER at checkout! SUPPORT THE SHOW: Shop NEW LEGAL AF Merch at: https://store.meidastouch.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/meidastouch Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://pod.link/1510240831 Legal AF: https://pod.link/1580828595 The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://pod.link/1595408601 The Influence Continuum: https://pod.link/1603773245 Kremlin File: https://pod.link/1575837599 Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://pod.link/1530639447 The Weekend Show: https://pod.link/1612691018 American Psyop: https://pod.link/1652143101 Burn the Boats: https://pod.link/1485464343 Majority 54: https://pod.link/1309354521 Political Beatdown: https://pod.link/1669634407 Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://pod.link/1676844320 Uncovered: https://pod.link/1690214260 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Weak five of the New York attorney general civil fraud trial, but it was day one of Don Jr.'s testimony. Donald Trump was not in attendance like he was when it came to Michael Cohen's testimony. Don Jr. during his testimony, just couldn't remember a lot of things. He couldn't recognize the document that he signed that made him in charge of the Trump organization. I don't know, you think that would be a pretty important document. Don junior claimed he didn't recognize

the 2017 statement of financial condition that he was responsible for as a fiduciary. You think that would be something important as well? Don Jr also said he was unaware of generally accepted accounting principles, and that's why he pays people millions and millions of dollars. Okay, Don Jr. And he didn't even know how it came about that Alan Weiselberg, the CFO, no longer was the co-trustee. He knew what happened, but how it did it really go

down. There you go. That was day one of Don Jr.'s testimony. Also, it's been a week one of the Colorado State Constitutional Disqualification case against Donald Trump, the judge presiding over the matter denied Donald Trump's motion to dismiss. It's called a motion for directed verdict after the petitioners rested their case. And then guess who Trump called cash Patel and guess who cash Patel blamed Bill Barr and the FBI said they were responsible for the insurrection. Look folks, it's complete bogus, it's completely wild and outrageous, but what else would we expect? These constitutional disqualification cases are heating up across the country, for example,

in Michigan, where this week Donald Trump filed a lawsuit to try and block the Secretary of State, their Jocelyn Benson, from removing him from the ballot, a preemptive move by Donald Trump seeking injunctive relief. We'll talk about that. Also, two federal judges, two entirely different rulings in the same day. Today, on handling classified information in the federal criminal prosecutions of Donald Trump. Judge Kenan came up with her own interpretation of SEPA, the Classified Information Procedures Act, and Judge Tanya Chutkin, on the other hand, in Washington, D.C. federal court, follow, I don't know, the well-established law about SEPA, Classified Information Procedures

Act. One question that I have following that hearing is, will special counsel Jack Smith, though, now bring an appeal when it comes to what Judge Cannon's been doing. There was a hearing that was held today as well before Judge Cannon and the Fort Pierce Division, where Judge Cannon says, I don't know. I think we're going to have to delay this things. But in typical Judge Cannon fashion didn't actually make an order doing that. All of her dates and deadlines have been blown. She stayed her own deadlines.

As I've said, her corruption is matched by her incompetence. And then let's talk about what went down earlier this week, although I don't know how you feel about it, Popeyes. It feels like a year ago, I had to look. I was like, so this happened a few days ago. It did when federal judge Tonya Chukkin reimposed her gag order on Donald Trump, removing the temporary stay of the gag order. And one of the things she cited in her order were Donald Trump's threats of witnesses,

like his former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, who Trump referred to as a coward and a weakling. How embarrassing can you get? But folks, great to know that the wheels of justice are turning and turn in the right direction. This is the midweek edition of legal AF. I'm filling in for Karen Friedman, Agnifalo joined by Michael Popak, Karen Friedman, Agnifalo. We'll be back.

Don't you worry, but I'm gonna do my best to hold down the fort. We miss Karen Friedman, Agnifalo. She's the best. And by the way, her hot take, her duet, as we call them, with Donia Perry, former federal prosecutor, Michael Cohen's lawyer was fantastic. I'm looking forward to many, many more of those duets

together of Donia Perry, Karen Friedman and Nifalo, two of the top former prosecutors, not just in the country, in the world right here on the Midas Touch network. I love it. I'm glad you're filling in. And for those out there, I'm a little under the weather. So I've asked Ben, as you can see, he's pepped up today.

I've asked Ben to do the intro, but I'm here. I'm going to pull my weight. As always, I will rally. I've coughed my way through a number of the intro, but I'm here. I'm going to pull my weight. As always, I will rally. I've coughed my way through a number of hot takes, but I will survive. You know who's not going to survive? Ben is the Trump organization in this civil fraud case. I'm going to give one comment as a practitioner of law in New York, worked for major corporations. That's me.

There is a, the problem that they have, the kids, is that they took jobs, not just make work jobs, but control officer jobs, jobs that make them responsible for the financial controls of the company, for the, to be the control officers meeting for compliance purposes and for everything related to how that business is supposed to operate consistent with the laws of the state of New York.

And all we're seeing, whether it's Don Jr. today, the start of Don Jr. today, Eric eventually of Anka after Donald or Donald is a Donald Trump at at best. Put lackeys, inflatable dolls, children with no experience or no interest in key control positions that which they were either ill-suited for, had no qualifications for fell asleep at the switch or busy pointing the finger out. Who me? I was responsible for that.

I thought he was responsible for that. That does not fly in the business capital of the world New York and how you operate a business. And all it's doing, they think what they're saying is, I wasn't responsible. I'm not an accountant. I'm not of this. I'm, we know what you are. We know you won the Lucky Spurm Club. But the point is, in order to operate a business that's public facing in the state of New York, and that transact, transact business, you have to have proper qualified people in control positions. And all we're seeing is that ain't what happened at the Trump organization.

And when we talk about the revocation of these licenses, almost think about it like a revocation of like a driver's license, right? If you are someone who has a DUI or someone who's impaired or if you're trying to be a truck driver and you don't pass those types of tests, right? Your license gets revoked or you don't get the license in the first place. So where you are driving a truck

and you don't have your truck license, you're not allowed to do that. In essence, if you wanna simplify what this New York attorney general's similar fraud case is about, one major element is that it's basically being showcased here, right? Where the Trump kids show up to testify and they didn't know how to drive the truck. That's part of what essentially the claim is, that you were fiduciaries, these statement of financial conditions were made

where you were responsible for it. The buck stops with you, and you don't know anything about the statement of financial condition, in which case you are either lying, or you are so willfully negligent and reckless showing a callous disregard for the financial markets and for everything that you should recap your life sensory vote.

And that was so clearly on display for Don Jr.'s testimony. Now, today's testimony of Don Junior only lasted about an hour. It's going to continue on tomorrow. Lisa Rubin, a lawyer and reporter was there in attendance. And she's been doing a great job live tweeting this and relive Xingit, whatever the heck you call it today. And here's how she basically described what went down that early on Don Jr described what his role was during the 2011 to 2017 time period as a quote all

encompassing developmental role he said involving international deals, financing, leasing, licensing, but after deals, financing, leasing, licensing, but after 2017 things changed. And there was no one above him when he began to function as a trustee of the Trump revocable trust which oversees all of the Trump entities, all of those LLCs. The ultimate authority post Trump inauguration was held by Eric Alan Weisselberg who's now a convicted felon and Trump Jr. And then Weisselberg is no longer a Co trustee He was removed when he was indicted although Don Jr. said he didn't know who specifically although Don Jr. said he didn't know who specifically removed Weisselberg. Now just think about that in and of itself. That Don Jr. one of the co-trustees claims to not know how the other co-trustee was removed.

I would went down how that decision was made. That's something pretty basic. Or how about the fact that when Don Jr. was provided the document that made him a co-trustee, that gave him the power of attorney. How about when Don Jr. got that document? He claimed he didn't recognize what that document even was. And the New York Attorney General lawyer had to say, but that is your signature, right? There are how about the fact that Don Jr. claims that he had no role or involvement and didn't even recognize the statement of financial condition for 2017. That was the first one he was given. So tomorrow, we could expect that he's going to be shown 2018, 2019, so on and so forth,

and he's going to respond the same way that he doesn't know what the statement of financial conditions say. He's going to say, I just relied on the outside accounting firms. I relied on measures. I relied on Donald Bender and I relied on Alan Weisper. I don't look at the statement of financial conditions.

Well, you know, Popok, how the Magas planers out there like to say all of these things, like, let me tell you how business really is, Ben, because you see, Ben, the property appraisal is always so much lower than the fair market value. You don't know anything about real estate, Ben in a to which I go, you do realize that the valuation of Mar-a-Lago was set by Donald Trump. Like, you do realize that Trump's vice president Raymond Flores, who's testified, was the one who said on behalf of the Trump organization

that their valuation, because they checked the box, that it was a commercial property, not a residential property, and had all of these incumbenances placed on it based on a mid-1990s deed that was executed to lower all of their property taxes, that the valuation was less than $27 million and no mega-splainers. I've never heard a fair market value being 3,000 percent more to 5,000% more than the property appraisal that was done by the tax assessors, for example, from Palm Beach County.

So to all of the Magas Plainers also, I've also never heard someone who's supposed to be the head of a corporation who doesn't even know the contract that they signed that made them the head of the corporation or who hasn't looked at their statement of financial conditions. So Magus Plainers know, and this is the thing, Popok. It's this incongruity of what the Magus Plainers say when they go on their podcasts and their right wing shows versus what goes down in court. And that's what we saw just during that sliver of Don Jr's testimony today. What did you take out of it, Popo?

First of all, there's a admission by Donald Trump that he lost the election. That hasn't been overly reported. On January the 15th, 2021, Donald Trump put himself back in as trustee of his trusts. You only do that if you know that you've lost the election. If you think you've won the election, which he keeps claiming, that's not the behavior and conduct of somebody who thinks that he's lost. That's the behavior and conduct of somebody who knows that he's lost and that he's going back to take control of the company from his three-neared-to-well children, who fortunately for Donald Trump didn't completely, based on the brain power that I've been seeing

during the trial, didn't completely grind this company into the ground. They are not their father's equal. Say what you want about Donald Trump, but he knew how to take his father's existing business, and at least maybe double it over time. These kids, you know, with their lack of business approach and acumen, Donald Trump couldn't wait to get back into the saddle. So that's one. Secondly, all the things you just said about, I thought we developed a new drinking game, Magasplating. Everything that you just said about property value is so true. What the New York Attorney General has said time and time again in her daily, daily press reports that she, I love the fact that she posts on the Office of Attorney

General website a daily explanation of what just happened in court. That just shows you how confident she is. I've done trials for 32 years. I've tried over 40 cases. I don't get the luxury of every day having a press conference. Here's how I did in court today. Here's the three witnesses that really went well for me. I mean, it's really it's really great. But what she said and outlined it is that Donald Trump in valuing his property, he manipulated it in different ways. But the consistent theme is disregard for law, government regulation, zoning regulation, easements, and economic reality.

And then he values his property. For instance, Mar-a-Lago, he acts like it's a single family home on 15 acres that's not burdened by a conservation easement that he placed on it in order to agree never to develop it in order to get lower taxes. In Scotland, he acts like he can develop thousands and thousands of homes on his Scottish golf course property when the most anybody has ever, ever on the government there has ever thought to approve is 500. So he just says, let's act like I can do 5,000. But you can't. What's act like? There's no conservation easement in Mar-a-Lago, but there isn't.

What's act like a Trump building in New York doesn't have rent control apartments in it and value it as if it does or doesn't. But you can't. So, you know, without, that's why he can stand in front of a bank of microphones where a bunch of people really don't know the facts and say, look, it's more like, that's worth, that's got to be worth $500 million, right? Look at it. No, not given the reality of it. And all I'm seeing with people like Don Jr., and I'm sure it's not going to improve with Eric Trump,

are people who are out of their depths who either because they have rich person syndrome, rich, rich boy syndrome, rich playboy syndrome where they were born to paraphrase the great, and oh, it'll come to me in a minute, the great Texas governor who said that George Bush was born with a silver, a footness mouth, they were born with a silver foot in their mouth. And that's the only reason they get to sit there there But they're not qualified for the position. They have no interest in the job It's there. They're just rubber stamping and signing things. They don't know what's going on but the which is bad you can as I started the the the segment with you cannot operate a New York business with a bunch of inflatable dummies Crash dummies sitting there as your control officers who have no interest or acumen or ability or capacity or bandwidth to handle the

job title that they are given. Doesn't matter if their last name is Trump. That doesn't qualify them for the job. And Donald Trump didn't care because he didn't want people to be control officers to push back against his grandiose ego and how he ran his business. Because he ran his business like an out of control mom and pop organization without regard to third parties like lenders, insurers, investors, buyers, government regulators or anybody else. Which is fine if you just want to not go if you never wanted to go for a bank loan.

Just had his own money. Some family offices never take out loans. They have so much wealth that they're able to fund everything They wanted to. If you don't have to go to the bank, if you don't have to go to insurance companies, if you don't have to go to Investors, if you don't have to, if you don't have to do these things and be public-facing and have counter parties If you don't have to do these things and be public facing and have counter parties that are not you, that are not relatives of you, then you got to play by the rules. And the rules in New York are very strict when it comes to business operation. That's why many companies don't incorporate in New York. Not the Delaware's any better, but he wanted that. He inherited his dad's business.

He wanted the cashier of being a New York company. And with that, then you must know, Donald. I did a hot take on this a long time ago, that in 1956, the New York legislation, the legislature's led by, at the time, a attorney general of the state passed the 63-12 persistent fraud laws since 1956 they have been on the books. And they've had the power to if the remedy is appropriate as fashioned by the judge to discourage, meaning take back, claw back, ill, gotten gains regardless of whether there is a quote unquote victim.

Chris Kice, the lawyer for Donald Trump, when he's not busy trying to figure out how to also appear in the Mar-a-Lago case, we'll talk about that next. He doesn't understand New York law. He doesn't understand that a Trump case from 2016 involving the then attorney general Eric Schneiderman shutting down Trump University as a bogus whatever, approve the use of discouragement.

That has been on the books as a power forever. And it doesn't require materiality. It doesn't require reliance. It doesn't require victims. All it requires is that you did underhanded business conduct for which you got a benefit. Even if the other person doesn't care, didn't mind, wants to be in business with you, I'm okay with being ripped off, it doesn't matter. So, parading a bunch of witnesses like Deutsche Bank to say, well, I relied on the statement of financial condition,

but I like Donald Trump and I would have lent him money because I think he's a good credit risk. It doesn't matter. And he's been told this by, and this is where Angora is getting frustrated and acting out, which is fine with me. He's been telling this team of Haba and Kaiz and Clifford, whatever his name is for the last six weeks, since they've been raising it in motion practice. Do you understand that I can find persistent fraud without intent? You could accidentally commit this kind of fraud in New York. Do you get that? And that's how some rejudgment got granted on the rest different story. Do you get that I can take? And he's already said, this is the scary parts. If you're listening to the judge on Trump side, think

of the things Ben that he's already said aloud that indicate that he's made up his mind. One, there is enough evidence in this room, right, to on the persistent fraud to fill this courtroom. So I don't really care. I like what Michael Cohen said. I'll listen to it, but he's not the only witness. That's one, two, he told them when they started to attack the ability to take away all their buildings and property and companies, he said,

I've already found Elgotton gains. That's terrible for them. Then he's just listening to the experts from the Office of Attorney General's side to figure out how much of the Elgotton gains, how you calculate the amount that Donald Trump benefited because of his fraudulent business practices. That's all they were doing before Donald Trump took the stand. So you have that, the comment about that. And then the comment where he said to Mr. Kies, you don't understand, I have this power. I have found Ilgotton gains already.

And it sounds like you were whistling past the graveyard, which is an old New York phrase that my grandfather used, which means you're really nervous about bad things happening. So you whistle so that you make yourself feel better. And it sounds like Mr. Kaiss, you are whistling past the great graveyard. My view and go on is waiting for everybody to stop talking. Get all the evidence in. It looks like it will probably be before Thanksgiving, probably a month early. And I think I said this on a hot tick. He's got this order substantially written

and just sitting in his computer to be finished with additional evidence and footnotes, yes, and references to exhibits and testimony, yes. But he's got it half written and he's just waiting to print and send as soon as the lawyers stop talking. You know, normally in a situation like this, if your clients were confident in their case, we would expect to see what are called disputed facts, right, from people like Don Jr. and Eric and Donald Trump. So they can cite to hear the disputed facts here. They're saying, this is what the statement of financial conditions

is that here's why it was structured this way. And yes, there may be a vice president of the Trump organization who's saying this. And yes, the outside of praisers are saying this and yes, the accountants are saying this, but we dispute that. That is wrong because look at what Don Jr. is saying. That's not what we have here. We have Don Jr. being presented with a statement of financial conditions. I don't know what that is. Ask Eric.

Eric looks at it and goes, I don't know what this statement that wasn't my job. I was just pouring concrete. You go to Donald Trump and he goes, yeah, that was Alan Weisselberg's job. You go to Alan Weisselberg, he goes, yeah, you know, I'm not a CPA, I'm just a bookkeeper. I don't really know any of this. So you have all of that on the one hand

and then you have setting aside the state's evidence. You have the Trump insiders, all of the other ones who are saying, yeah, that's fraudulent. Yeah, we inflated that. Yeah, I was told this. So when Judge Engoron granted summary judgment for New York attorney general, Latisha James, it was based on undisputed facts. And Judge Engoron doesn't hate Donald Trump. Judge Engoron is not a democratic operative. Judge Engoron is someone who looks at the facts, who looks at the evidence, who looks at the law. And for me, Popoq, what angers me the most is just the gaslighting, is just knowing

how Trump and the Magas planers do one thing in court. And then they just go out there with impunity and act and play a part and pray on the fact that some of this stuff could be a little bit complicated if you obfuscate and confuse. That's why we've made it our mission here at LegalA of to cut through it. Just give me the facts. Give me the evidence. Okay, that's what Don Jr said. And you're going to mag this plane to me that that's supposed to be the brilliant head of a corporation who doesn't review their statement of financial conditions and doesn't even know the contract that empower them to lead. Uh-uh. You ain't going to convince.

You ain't going to convince. No, it's it's it's it's purposeful. It is persistent fraud. You mentioned risk ice though, Pope, because he's kind of two cases or three cases or five cases all at the same time. He, you know, and by the way, one of the things is he may be wishing he didn't take that $3 million from Donald Trump, Trump paid him that lump sum through the political action committee. Now Trump basically has now Trump, he should have charged 10. I bet you that's what Kice would say privately, Because now Trump has Kice doing everything.

I bet you just that that lump sum fee. So while you had the case going on, the civil case in New York, you had Kice appearing telephonically or through Zoom before Judge Eileen Cannon at a hearing today to try to, where she wanted to determine whether or not she was gonna delay all of the dates that she set. She's already stayed her own dates.

Like she basically ruled against herself. She stayed her own dates and deadlines indefinitely. And then about 10 days ago said she was gonna to whole day hearing on whether to then further delay everything and to alter the existing trial schedule. And where she's kind of trapped, Popoq. And we've done some hot takes on this. And I'm going to do another one is she's trying to help Trump. But what she realizes is that if she moves that May trial date, you're going to have the Fulton County District Attorney Fawni Willis swoop in and try to ask Judge McAfee in the state court

Georgia criminal Rico case to set that trial in May of 2024. Now that Ken Chesbrook and Sid and Powell pled guilty. So now you have Judge Cannon. She just kind of created this Rubik's cube of confusion and disorganization. And she doesn't even know what to do. So she left this hearing just basically saying, all right, I'm gonna figure out what I'm gonna do in a little bit, but I'm inclined to delay the dates,

but I'm not gonna tell you if I'm gonna do that and Kice appeared on that one. Tell us. Nobody, well first let me comment on the draw things. We've talked about this before. No one has respected canon among the other judges. Let's just put that out there. We have our own criticisms, some harsher than others about judge canon. A first time judge handling, you know, what is one of the most historic trials of a former president ever. And other judges just don't respect her.

We had Judge Chuckkin, in her big, huge DC election interference case, look at the calendar and go, I'll take March. Without saying, well, what about the May case in Mar-a-Logue? Yeah, I'll take, do I stutter? I take March. And her case is going to go longer than two months. So we'll leave that for a minute. But also, as we said, and you said, when we're analyzing the way the clearing out of the calendar in Georgia would go, that Fawli Willis is chomping at the bit to get a Georgia and Dite prosecution trial of Donald Trump in 2024 well before

the election. And the dance card just opened up and they're just ignoring her. And if they, if Fawni can't go, then you're going to see Stormi Daniels, Hush Money Cover-Up case, business record fraud case against Donald Trump by the Manhattan district attorney who's still technically scheduled for March. The same time as Judge Chutkin, slide in as they're like, okay, Ken, and you're out. We're in. There's two backups. I mean, you and I who practice trial law, judges often set what we call backup cases. They got the trial set for one trial setting,

but they take backups because cases settle. I've been a backup, I've been the number one backup, I've been the number five backup, and you're like, oh great, five backup, I'll never go to trial this month. Then you get a call from the clerk. Okay, the four cases ahead of you just settled, you're in. Okay, so that happened.

The backups here, we're not done intentionally by one judge, these are multiple judges, but they so that happened. So the backups here, we're not done intentionally by one judge. These are multiple judges, but they're all hovering. This is like, you know, they're all out there with the flight plan hovering around. And as soon as she pulls out, Karen and goes, because you can already see the writing, the writing's not only in the wall,

it's in her order where she's going to reset the trial date. Well, she's gonna reset the trial date. Two more are gonna jump on top of it. So if Donald Trump thinks he's going to reset the trial date. Well, she's going to reset the trial date. Two more are going to jump on top of it. So if Donald Trump thinks he's going to lose, he's going to win by not having this trial. I say, Jack Smith is one because for the longest time, he's been able to use Mar-a-Lago to exhaust the resources of Donald Trump to spread his counsel so thin, you could see through them. I mean, that's how thin this staffing is. There's times when Chris Keiss can't run down to a pellet court and argue in a pellet

court, so he's got to get a delay in the New York case. And now he's got to ask the phone into Florida. And Jack Smith's just sitting there going with his 250 lawyers and staff and investigators and an unlimited budget for the United States of America against what I said in a hot take is literally a total of six lawyers, not law firms, six lawyers for Donald Trump up against all of this in seven or nine in seven cases in nine months. That's why in Colorado, we don't even know who this lawyer is.

That's we'll talk about the Colorado, a 14th amendment case. We don't even know who this lawyer is for Donald Trump. It's not one of his usual suspects because they're all pinned down under heavy artillery in these other cases and they can't move. I mean, Donald Trump could lose. I don't want to keep repeating this, but let's beat the dead or it's one more time. He's gonna lose his buildings, his money, and his business, and his business operations in New York, if Alina Habba and Chris Keiss aren't successful, who's a betting person out there? Who's gonna put the office of the attorney general,

which I've been against, including recently, against these two on these issues with this judge who's already made his rulings Basically out loud So on the You're better at the seepest stuff than I am. I go over the seepest stuff too. Yeah Alina Habba was overheard though in the elevator Speaking to Donald Trump saying don't you worry sir?

Because Donald Trump likes to be cool. Don't you worry, sir. I'm going to go give him hell today. I mean, it was never heard from again. She didn't talk today. She definitely didn't talk today. So just a quick refresher on the classified information, Procedure's Act. This was a law that was passed by Congress back in 1980. There's not a lot of things that are controversial about SEPA. The cases

themselves may be because they involve situations where a criminal defendant usually has stolen classified documents or that classified documents are involved in the case and they have to be handled differently than even confidential records. So, SEPA is this regulatory regime well-established. How do we handle classified documents and information? It would be easy to even teach a class on this. That's how well-established this is. So, when Donald Trump's lawyers say, under SEPA section four,

we as the defense lawyer should get access to the briefing and all of the classified information. Maybe not our client, but the lawyer should get access to it. It's not like a difficult question, Popo. The answer is no. You don't get it because the procedure is supposed to be something called X-part A and in camera. Meaning you don't get to be there, defense lawyer,

because Congress, not Jack Smith, not President Biden. Congress in 1980 said that when we deal with classified information, we wanna protect against situations where criminal defendants will blackmail or graymail the government and basically say, hey, we're gonna to take these documents, you know, these national security documents under the Sixth Amendment.

We're just going to broadcast them publicly. So screw you, United States of America's national security, or maybe you just want to drop the charges against this. So SEPA tries to protect against that. That's why the lawyers for the defendant don't get access to certain documents that are deemed so highly classified that they go through this section for procedure. So Donald Trump's lawyers in both cases, one to judge canon, one to judge, Chutkin basically said, we want to be involved in the process. What do you think judge can and said, maybe,

okay, that's that intrigues me. Maybe you could be involved. Maybe Cepa Section 4 doesn't say what Cepa Section 4 actually says. I'm just going to have the Cepa Section 3 protective order be the thing that governs here. And I don't really think I'm even going to follow Cepa Section 4 in this situation. It's like, what do you mean? You don't really have a choice. It exists. See for Section 4's eighth thing. And then you had Judge Chutkin, basically in five pages, whereas Judge Cannon took 15 pages.

Judge Cannon's like, I mean, Judge Chutkin's like, what are you even talking about here? This couldn't be clearer. This is what Judge Chutkin says. At the outset, it bears emphasis that the defense identifies no case in which any court has ordered the relief they seek here. That should be changed now because Judge Cannon just did that. And this court is aware of none. There is good reason for that lack of precedent.

As SEPA's House report explains, since the government is seeking to withhold classified information from the defendant and adversary hearing with the defense knowledge would defeat the very purpose of the discovery plan. Rather than undertake that unprecedented and likely futile course, the court will instead follow the well-established procedure of holding an X-part day hearing with defense council to better understand whether the withheld information is relevant and helpful. That process, not adversarial litigation is the appropriate course for resolving CEPA funnel, if we're able to kind of pull that up here, because if I were just to teach a course to second-year law students on CEPA, I would show them this CEPA funnel that just security.org published about how the process works. This is how well-established it is. So if I can just make it clear what Judge Cannon did,

she basically put an X through the Section 4 of Cepa part of this funnel. And she acted like she so self-important, like she conducted her own statutory analysis and said, well, Section 3 mentions both the defendant and defense counsel. But Section 4 only mentions the defendant, not defense counsel. Therefore, I think that the congressional intent in 1980s, that's not your role as District Court, just follow what the freaking precedent is.

And if the judge is supposed to look at things in camera and X part day by its very nature, that means that the defense lawyer is not there. So anyway that's what Judge Kennedy. But the good news here, I think that this is actually the first opportunity that special counsel Jack Smith has to appeal something that Judge Kennedy, because all of our other orders were really not appealable orders until this one. So I'm going to be taking a look at what special counsel

Jack Smith is doing there. By the way, we've got a lot to discuss on this episode, including Popeye, the disqualification trial in Colorado, a lawsuit by Donald Trump in Michigan to try to block disqualification cases there. Also, let's go back to Judge Chutkin, re-imposing the gag order that she had temporarily stayed as Donald Trump started to threaten witnesses again. The moment that the gag order was stayed. Also, want to tell everybody, remind everybody, we've got a full house here. We are again, one of the most watched shows, not

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Judge Chutkin reimposing the gag order. She temporarily stayed it. Why do you think she did that number one? And then number two, she removed the temporary stay after taking some briefing by special counsel Jack Smith and by Donald Trump and one of the things that She cited and that she said as she goes look I've made it very clear You want to go after the DOJ? You want to go you know you want to go after president Biden? You want to attack the government? You want to do things like you all good?

But you can't attack the special council. You can't attack witnesses in this case. You're not above the law. And while there are important First Amendment considerations that exist, criminal defendants can't engage in witness tampering. And as further evidence, though, that just the conditions of release are not enough. One of the things Judge Chuck inside it is look what happened when we in and as you almost was able to prove by granting this day how effective that the actual gag order

is, you go look the con look when the conduct stopped. I issue to stay and then boom, you start attacking Mark Meadows, one of the key witnesses here and call him a weakling and a coward. No criminal defendant would be able to engage in that conduct Popeye. There's two thanks, Ben. There's two traps that Judd Chukkin set for Donald Trump that he stepped into. The first was rather than have him run off to the appellate court, the DC Court of Appeals, and try to argue for a stay there on a fresh record where they would, he'd be able to litigate over the issues with briefing and delay things. She said, oh, okay, why don't we do this whole

litigation right here? In fact, you want a temporary administrative stay for a short period of time, I'll give it to you because I have a feeling this is her inner inner thoughts here that I'm expressing because I have a feeling you're going to violate it during it. And I'll be able to use it in my in my order when I reimpose it. No, I'm not I'm not making this up. That's one. Two, let's litigate it here. And why is that important?

That's important because the standard of review that the appellate court is going to use for the decision to reimpose the gag order after full briefing and a hearing at the trial court level is a very liberal abuse of discretion standard which gives a lot of difference to the trial judge. If they didn't have the proceedings below as we call them in the trial court level and it just went up at the appellate level. They would either send it back down, let the trial judge do it. Or if they did it, they would do it on, they would do it on their own, which they don't like to do.

They don't like to have a record that's not yet fully developed. So by having it fully developed, now when he takes the inevitable appeal to the appellate court and says, oh, I got the gag order reimposed. Now they apply a very liberal standard that gives great deference to the trial judge and say, yeah, she didn't abuse her discretion. There was a full hearing. There was briefing.

She cites the right law in the right way for the right propositions, how novel, because Donald Trump often cites no facts, law that doesn't support his position and ignores entire bodies of law that he should be citing. Let me just say this for those that are only learning about the legal profession through I was going to say through legal a half law school, but through the Trump lawyers, we have an obligation as officers of the court, all of us, that are that have taken an oath to represent the bar, members of the bar and that honorable profession, that if you know there are cases that are against you, or the cases that support, you're supposed to

cite the cases properly. And if they don't stand for the proposition that you say, it's a problem in terms of being an ethical advocate. And if you know there's a case contrary to your position out there, you need to bring it to the attention of the judge, not wait around to see if the other side catches it, or the judge's law-clerc catches it, or the judge herself. And so we don't see any of that with the Trump lawyers.

There's a reason that they never, when they're addressing the gag orders in any court, they never want a list or put on a spreadsheet or an Excel or a schedule, a list of all the things that Donald Trump said. And compare it to the case law about that type of First Amendment speech when it runs up against the Sixth Amendment right to, to a fair trial. And the friction that happens when 1st Amendment speech outside the courtroom interferes with the proper administration of justice inside the courtroom. And that's the friction that this judge is living at.

And she has made clear headed decisions, bright line about the application of precedent and law in the circuit at the Supreme Court level about these issues. There's a reason Donald Trump, just like we talked about it in the case in New York, doesn't want to come right out and say, look at these 19 things that I did and said about prosecutors and their family and judges and their family and staff and their family and all of it. And Jack Smith's a thug and his wife's a thug and his daughters of thug. There's a reason they don't want to put that all in one compilated place. It's because it's terrible for them.

It's easier for them to try to dispatch it. Like John Loro said in the hearing when the judge says, are you denying that there are statements that your client makes that leads to that violent rhetoric that exhorts his supporters to do really bad things like pick up guns and try to hunt for Obama in his neighborhood, or she was nice. She didn't mention the person that called to assassinate Judge Chutkin on and left a message or what we just heard about Fawney Willis in which Fawney Willis and the feds have indicted

the person now guy from Alabama who left on the customer service line, because that's where you leave death threats at the Fulton County Government Center, a death threat against the sheriff and Fawni Willis, who wears a bulletproof vest to work because she indicted Donald Trump. And he said, you're not going to acknowledge that those real world consequences have happened, and Laura said, they're irrelevant. Right, he just waves it away with an irrelevant to his what you're hearing, this constant bleeding, BLEAT, bleeding by Alina Haba

and all the lawyers about first amendment. But he threatened to kill somebody, first amendment, but he threatened to hang somebody. Well, first amendment. Well, he threatened, he threatened to kill somebody, first amendment, but he threatened to hang somebody. Well, first amendment, well, he threatened to, you know, hang the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff with first amendment, and then it just shows a complete, it's a juvenile Tourette syndrome that they've gotten where they just think by saying the magic words, like Beetlejuice, first amendment three times, something positive is going to happen. And all it shows is a complete lack of the jurisprudence around the intersection.

We talk a lot about intersection on this podcast, the intersection of the first amendment and the, and the other branch of government, which is the judicial branch, which deals with the court system. And you can't say anything. And that is what the Judge, Judge Chutkin has been saying since the hearings two weeks ago to John Loro, you're not taking the position that your guy can say just anything, right? And he said, no, you're on, I'm not saying that, right? So he already established that.

And the second trap that she laid is the one that you outlined Ben and I touched on, which is she, as you said, she ever so slightly lifted the stay for two weeks to see what was gonna happen. And what happened was a perfect example that she could use to prove her point, that his first amendment rights are not gagged,

that he can continue to campaign for the highest office in the land. God help us without being gagged. He can attack Joe Biden. You gave the list already. I won't repeat it. You can attack all the things that you want to attack. You can say you're an innocent man. You can sing it like Billy Joel.

However, you can't go after by name, individuals, and threaten them to try to change their testimony because there's a statute on the books about that that makes that a crime. And so the judge at the end said, let me give you two examples in my order that will show you what is right and what is wrong. Here, this one you said in early October, this one doesn't violate the gag order. You want to attack everybody here? That's fine. Now, let me show you one that you did during the two weeks when I lifted the gag order, and I love the one she picked.

It just shows such confidence of her. She picked one that has tremendous racist dog whistle overtones in it because Donald Trump is using that new term he just developed, which is short for another term that I won't say called rigors with an R. The rigors have rigged the election. The rigor we should go after the rigors and then he throws dogs in there, dogs and rigors in the same paragraph. And she says, you know, that one, and the one where you go after Mark Meadows to try to influence his testimony,

that one you can't do. Actually, actually, I'm sorry, the rigors one she was okay with, that showed her confidence. The one you can't do is the one where you call out by name, a witness in this case that you know is gonna testify and call him a coward and signal to him that he should change his testimony. And there's a perfect example from your own, which would have violated my gag order if

it had been in place at the moment. So she gave him, she reimposed the gag order. You did a hot takeer. It's been on the Midas Touch Network with Alina Haba going on some newsmax or right wing thing saying, first amendment, she'll never be able to put him in jail. What? Try it. Try it with Judge Chutkin. And she said, I'm going to evaluate on my own the next time something happens. It's brought to my attention. Either either one of my staff or I catch it or the prosecutors catch

it because they're watching everything and I'll evaluate on a case-by-case basis whether that does or does not violate and then the appropriate remedy. And why is the remedy important then? Because she is trying to accomplish something with the gag order. It's not a gag order, quack gag order, just to have a gag order. Hey, it's a novelty story. Here's a gag order. No, it is supposed to accomplish something, which is to protect in a prophylactic way, the justice system from being interfered with, right? By Donald Trump in all of its components. And if she can't accomplish that with the threat of a gag, which is obvious that she can't, and she can't do it with a fine

because we can see from Judge Engor and Goron in New York finds don't matter. This guy has unlimited fine money that he's walking around with in his pocket from his donors. Then she has to come up with something else. And I'm sorry, Alina Hama, that something else is going to be a couple of days in the federal penitentiary in the federal detention center. And if she, if they think he's not, and they want to challenge that, I guess, and bring it to the US Supreme Court's attention that the leading candidate is being jailed for his own conduct, then

so be it. Then we need that debate then. We need that discussion then and we need a judge who's going to set him up for that. There is no way and I'll leave it on this then. There's no way between now and November or the March trial, leave it at the March trial, that he's not Donald Trump gonna violate this order and she's now gonna have to sit there

and think of an appropriate sanction in her toolbox to get that to never happen again. Yeah, the gag order didn't come out of nowhere. It wasn't like the judge was like, we don't like Trump. Therefore, gag order, Donald Trump can't control himself. And there are tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of litigants who all are supposed to follow the same rules. No one behaves like this. Nobody. I mean, he shows up in New York for two and a half days and can't control

himself where he has to attack not just the judge because the judge is okay with that. He has to attack the judge's law clerk and make up some lie that the judge's law clerk is having an affair with Chuck Schumer and post information about her online. Like, who does that? It's not a liberal, progressive, democratic thing for me to look at that and go, what in the world is that? I don't know if you saw this and I'm not making this a political show per se, but you

know, just like 10 bucks from the Freedom Caucus said that he's not running again from Colorado. He's like, I don't recognize this party from the Freedom Caucus. He goes, they don't believe that the 2020 election results are what they really are that President Biden won. It's like, I can't be a part of this. That's why it's not really a partisan thing at all.

It's just the behavior that he's engaging in is so disgraceful. It's embarrassing. We should want to be a dignified nation and act like adults and behave ourselves like normal human beings. He's acting like just a, he is so buzz. It's just there's no other way to describe it. It is so uniquely Trumpian, this out of control behavior. That to me, it's not like, oh, that's conservative.

No, that just despicable. It's just pathetic. So let's just go to Colorado. Let's talk about what's going on there. We're now past a day three of the disqualification case in Colorado. Let's talk about what's going on there. We're now past a day three of the disqualification case in Colorado. That's going to trial. That case was filed early September. Also a case was brought in Michigan, Donald Trump filed a lawsuit in Michigan to try to block the cases that are being filed in that state, requesting injunctive relief in

Michigan. Meanwhile, he's in trial. He's not showing up for the trial, just like he didn't show up for non-Juniors testimonies, not showing up for the disqualification case in Colorado. But the petitioners rested their case. Donald Trump's lawyers moved for a directed verdict, a motion to dismiss, kind of like what they tried to do in the New York Attorney General case after Cohen testified, your honor, we move to dismiss the case. And the judge in Colorado, just like Judge and Goran said, D9. So then Trump had to put on their case, odd, they called cash Patel who continued to perpetuate

that lie that Donald Trump wanted 10,000 National Guardsmen there, which we know as false. How do we know it's false? Ben because Donald Trump's Secretary of Defense, Chris Miller testified under penalty of perjury that it was false, that there was never a request made for 10,000 National Guardsmen. There was some suggestion in the January 6th committee report that Donald Trump was envisioning a procession where he would basically storm the Capitol with the insurrectionists surrounded by military like Mussolini and and seize power. That's where this idea, I suppose, was

potentially floated to protect him as he seized power. And then there's a AIDS of his who said that they talked him out of that. But it never was a request for 10,000 National Guards men or people to protect the capital that is false. I don't know what the benefit of having cash Patel there is to testify at all. We may have a verdict though.

This week on the issue of disqualification in Colorado. And then I think all of these cases will wind their way up, I think to the United States Supreme Court ultimately. And what'll be interesting about the timing is when the disqualification cases intersect with I think a guilty verdict that's going to be taken in the Washington, D.C. federal case, because I think then on appeal, you know, with the disqualification case, he would say, look, it was just convicted in Washington, D.C. of federal crimes relating to the 2020 election.

Popok, I'll leave you with the last word on disqualification. Yeah, I like the judge in Colorado very much. I think she's running a tight ship. She understands the weight of history that's on her shoulders. She's taking it very seriously, unlike Donald Trump's team, who are literally almost phoning it in with these witnesses. I don't know where they learn this directed verdict trick. All they get is the judge. I mean, I get when you do it. I'm not saying it's not an appropriate thing to do in a courtroom. But the judge said, which is similar, as you said, a judge and go on in New York, no, there's issues left to be decided. I can't decide them based on the evidence. It's only been presented so far on the on the plaintiff's side. I need to hear the rest. If I'm reading Teeleaves, this judge is going to rule because she's

already decided that a judge has to make this decision. It's not something for Congress. It's not something for the Senate. It's not something for anybody, but a judge looking at the 14th amendment, looking at the facts is developed in a trial for due process purposes who makes the ultimate decision whether the person ends up on the ballot or not or the Colorado Secretary of State gets to exercise her power. There's case law that we've talked about at length on hot takes. There's case law at the 10th Circuit, which covers Colorado, which including the leading case written by then judge now

justice, Neil Gorsuch of the US Supreme Court, who said point blank that the Colorado Secretary of State who at the time is Trump's current lawyer. I love Trump doesn't do any due diligence or research about who he has as his front person in court. That guy was the secretary of state in 2012 when he won his case to take a person off the ballot on a presidential ballot because he was not qualified. And of course, that case stands for the proposition that that's something appropriate for the Colorado's a secretary of state. This judge has taken it seriously.

She didn't ask for this case. She's taunted Donald Trump a little bit by saying, if you want to get rid of this disability under the 14th Amendment Article 3, all you got to do is get two thirds of the House and the Senate to take it away from you. I could do it any time before the trial after the trial, but whenever it was almost like she's like, we know you'll never get two thirds of either house. So let's move on with the trial.

I think she's going to ultimately rule that he can't be on the ballot. He's going to have to take something up to the Colorado Supreme Court or try to take it to the 10th Circuit, fast track to the US Supreme Court. I think the Michigan thing will fail his attempt to kind of preemptively sue their countersuit there. These are important issues. When you and I a year ago talked about what about the 14th Amendment disability clause? Why doesn't that apply? Yes, it came from the olden times, old timey days of the Civil War and

and the, you know, the reconstruction of the United States about Civil War people. But why does it? It applies. It's still on the books. And we were right. And then we said then and now it's not self-actuating. It is self-actuating, but you need a judge to kind of do the due process part. We saw a version of this. You and I talked about it a long time ago when they try to take Marjorie Taylor Green off the ballot, but that was some lower level administrative law judge that when he's not doing that, he tells you whether you're allowed to have your driver's license suspended back or not. So he was not the guy, the handle this kind of case. And he was like, nope, I don't think so.

I don't think that's all the 14th Amendment works. And she got to be on the ballot in Georgia. This is a real judge wearing a real black robe, not an administrative law judge making these decisions. So we don't talk a lot about it, but it is, just as the New York Attorney General case, takes away if successful like a madcap game of monopoly, Donald Trump's buildings, houses, money, I mean, like, you

know, this is like Mr. Monopoly, that case can do that. This case could be the glass ceiling breaker for other states to consider doing this, if she rules that way. And by all indications of I'm just being a court watcher here, she's going to ultimately rule that he is off the ballot and that he engaged in insurrection or rebellion, not convicted, engaged. That's what the term was. If the framers wanted to say convicted after due process, they would have said convicted after due process. Store.mitusTouch.com, we've got a new merch, Popok. New merch, not just the legal AF merch,

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be back on the next episode. Keep doing those hot takes with Donia Perry, the duets, we love those pop-ok and I. We'll be back this weekend on Legal AF. I'll be here with my brothers on the Thursday night, Midas Touch podcast. We also got Mayacolpa, the Mayacolpa podcast officially now on our RSS feed as well. There's a new Mayacolpa, the Mayacolpa podcast, officially now on our RSS feed as well. There's a new Mayacolpa RSS feed. So make sure you subscribe to that. I'll do a political beat down with Michael Cohen in the morning or afternoon,

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