Legal AF by MeidasTouch - Trump STUNNED as Federal Judge MOVES AHEAD

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Michael Popok and Karen Friedman Agnifilo are back for the midweek edition of the top-rated Legal AF podcast and debate and react to this week’s most important stories at the intersection of law and politics, including a new criminal referral of and articles of impeachment against a MAGA Supreme Court justice; a Trump federal judge caught in a sex scandal forcing his resignation; and how Judge Chutkan in early August will get the Trump DC election interference criminal case back on track for trial before the Inauguration. Join the Legal AF Patreon: https://Patreon.com/LegalAF Thanks to our sponsors: Lumen: Head to https://Lumen.me/legalaf and use code: LEGALAF to get 15% off your lumen today! Armra: Head to https://tryarmra.com/legalaf or enter promo code: LEGALAF to receive 15% off your first order! Green Chef: Head to https://GreenChef.com/legalaf250 and use code legalaf250 to get $250 off! OneSkin: Get started today at https://OneSkin.co and receive 15% Off using code: LEGALAF Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af MissTrial: https://meidasnews.com/tag/miss-trial The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/lights-on-with-jessica-denson On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Coalition of the Sane: https://meidasnews.com/tag/coalition-of-the-sane Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Welcome to the midweek edition of Legal AF Only on the Midas Touch Network. These are the stories of the intersection of law and politics we have to talk about at the midweek. We're gonna talk about, along with my colleague, Karen Friedman-Ignifilo, we have to talk about at the midweek. We're going to talk about, along with my colleague Karen Friedman-Iknifilo, we're going to talk about debate, explain, discuss how Judge Chutkin in early August gets the Trump election interference case back on track, especially given the direction and mandates of the United States Supreme

Court. Does she conduct a mini trial, allowing the Department of Justice to put on all of its evidence? We know that Donald Trump is going to oppose that. He only wants it on briefing because he doesn't want the American people to get a preview of the evidence against him

before they have to make their decision on November the 5th. So there's going to be that battle. There's at least four or five separate substantive motions related to discovery, related to jury instructions, related to other types of motion practice, including motions in Liminay to stop Donald Trump from making certain arguments to the jury. That all has to be decided by Judge Chutkin. And then she's got to make her ultimate ruling about which of the overt acts that are listed in the 50 page indictment or so, supporting the four counts of the indictment, and we'll talk about the four counts of the indictment as well,

which of those fall into the category of prosecutable, unofficial, slash private conduct. Because if it falls into the category of official conduct, even the outer boundaries of it, or it falls into the bucket of core presidential functions as outlined in Article II of the Constitution, then none of that is gonna be able to be prosecuted as a crime and the evidence of things that are official conduct Or core presidential conduct can also not be used to support the unofficial conduct

That's at the heart of the matter She's got to do all that and she's got to with a little footnote reference in the July 1st decision by the Supreme Court Oh as long as you're there, Judge Chutkin, why don't you also figure out whether half of the case should be dismissed because it doesn't fit the crime. It was overcharged, this is Trump's theory and the Supreme Court's theory, the obstruction of an official proceeding,

except they threw a life preserver to her. And if Judge Chutkin follows closely some of the guidance by Amy Coney Barrett in her concurrence, she should be able to come out the other side along with Judge Justice Sotomayor and find that the creation of the false electoral certificates is the equivalent of false evidence to interfere with a congressional investigation or a, in this case, an official proceeding and keep those two counts against Donald Trump. It's a lot. It's a lot for to do. Former prosecutor Karen Freemann-Nifilo and I will talk about the restart in early

August and the chances of this trial after another round of appeals getting back on track in time for at least before the inauguration. And then when you have a president, a former president that constantly transactionally trades in vitriol and violent rhetoric, it activates sleeper cell of crazy in their own party. And what happens is he puts the crosshairs on the back of FBI agents and judges and their families and prosecutors and their families and their staff and attorney generals and their families and then he sits and and elected officials and their families and then he sits back and acts like he doesn't know what anybody's talking about that he is he is a participant and a leader of stochastic terrorism against all these groups.

And when other people rise up and say, I'll be the secretary of retribution in the Trump administration, I'll create a list of enemies of the people and try to round them up and arrest them. And somebody goes and tries to carjack in broad daylight a United States Supreme Court justice and all the things that the FBI have

noted that Donald Trump is responsible for, or sorry, the Department of Justice, in their attempts to gag him. We got to talk about all of that with the new reporting that Justice Sotomayor's security detail had to take down and almost take out a carjacker who tried to carjacker. You got Nancy Pelosi's husband who gets hammered. You got a federal judge in Pennsylvania whose husband answered the door and was blown away by a Trumper. You got a Trumper who made threats against Joe Biden and Alvin Bragg.

And while they were executing the search warrant, the FBI had to kill him because he pulled a gun on them. And Donald Trump says, I don't know anything about it. I don't know about the Proud Boys. I don't know about Secretary's retribution. I don't know about Project 2025. I don't know about any of it. And he knows about it all. And we're going to break it down here on the midweek edition. Then we're going to talk about, remember that old show, Carradine Television, Northern Exposure, about this doctor that ended up in Alaska? We got another Northern Exposure. We got a, we got a now former federal judge or a federal judge appointed by

Donald Trump, caught up in a sex scandal of his own making, running apparently based on new reporting and a report out by the ninth judicial council that investigated him, basically finding that he ran, I mean, to say he ran a frat house in his chambers would be an insult to frat houses. It was worse than that. He ran his version of the Playboy Mansion, and he went after vulnerable female clerks of his and forced them to have sex with him. And then only because he went through an entire round of investigation

and lied during the investigation to the judges investigating him, and they told him if you don't get off the bench we're going to impeach you, only then did this Trumper decide maybe I should exit stage left. We'll talk more about that, the new opening for Joe Biden to appoint a new federal judge in Alaska, and then we just got to end tonight's podcast on Clarence Thomas, who's now got the twin barrels against him. He's got the Senate leadership, Sheldon Whitehouse and others who have sent a letter demanding the department of justice, open up a criminal investigation,

a criminal referral of Thomas, because of everything outlined in the ProPublica Pulitzer Prize winning reporting about him being on the take on the doll along with his wife by the Federalist Society, Leonard Leo orchestrated donations, Harlan Crow, luxury yachts that ended up docking near Putin's hometown, million dollar lodges, buying of his mobile home, his RV, paying off of real estate loans, buying his grand nephew tuition, all in order to make sure that he followed to the letter the Federalist Society Playbook, which he has,

right up through the last ruling on July 1st related to immunity. And AOC has had enough and she's decided through her leadership, it just came out today, right before we went on the air, she is going to, she's filed articles of impeachment against both Sam Alito and Clarence Thomas because enough is enough.

We're watching a kleptocracy and public corruption in broad daylight, and nobody's doing a darn thing about it on the Republican side and on the MAGA side, and certainly not Chief Justice Roberts. Whew, we got a lot to talk about. I'm all fired up. It's not a hot take. It's a midweek edition of Legal AF with Michael Bopak

and Karen Freeman-Ignipolo. Karen, it's the summer. It's hot midweek edition of legal AF with Michael popok and Karen Freeman ignit below Karen It's the summer. It's hot out there I'm pissed off already and it just starts. We're only we're only eight minutes in I'm already pissed off Wow popok Lot of fire here tonight. Yeah, let's train it on the right places Why don't we why don't why don't you why don't we kick it right off with Chutkin? And why don't you give it from your perspective about there's a certain, the reason it's going to be early August is that there's a certain amount of days between the Supreme Court ruling

on July 1st. They answered the question that came up in the chat and in other places that I've seen. Like, is it immediately enforceable? Is it immediately the law of the land? Not exactly. There's 32 days plus seven days. Once you're done with that, before that mandate becomes the mandate and gets direction back to Judge Chutkin, you're looking at Friday, August 2nd, Monday, August 5th as the times you could pull the lawyers in and talk about how to move this case forward. We know what the two sides are going to say. How do you think Judge Chutkin, who we've always admired in terms of her ability to deftly handle procedure and law and the administration of justice in her courtroom, what do you think she does day one once she gets everybody back in early August. I think the first thing she does is just really remind everyone where we are, because the case

wasn't quite ready to go to trial at the time that they pressed pause, at the time that the, that Donald Trump appealed midstream and appealed and made a presidential immunity claim to the DC Circuit. And what happens is that forces her to press pause because there's case law that suggests that a criminal defendant can't be made to work on a case when it's on appeal. And so it kind of divests you of jurisdiction at the trial court level, because the appellate court has jurisdiction over the case at that point. And so there were several motions that she still had to rule on. So I think that's the first thing she's going to talk about is just tell everyone, okay, just so that we're all on the same page, let's talk about all the things that still need to be decided, right?

And I think there were all sorts of motions. There were motions in Limini, which were sort of pre-trial motions about things that, that, that, if you remember, this was what Jack Smith filed after the stay, and basically was like, well, we can still keep working. And so they filed it, and then Donald Trump objected to that. And she kind of admonished the prosecution and said, a stay is a stay. Don't file any more motions. But there's those motions in limine that she has to talk about. She has to make sure that there's all sorts of discovery motions that Trump filed that she hasn't ruled on, and some

allegations in the indictment, I think, also were still outstanding, if I remember correctly. And I think there was also a SIPA issue in this case, which I always forget about because it is, in this case, which I always forget about because it is, this isn't a SIPA case, the Classified Information Procedures Act. That I always think of the Mar-a-Lago case, which dictates when you wanna use classified information, what has to be done, the procedures that have to be put in place in order to determine whether that can be used

at a trial. I was looking back over my notes in preparation for this evening and my understanding, if I remember correctly, the SEPA, the SEPA ruling had not happened yet either. So, so I'm probably missing some, but those were the ones that stuck out to me that, that the pre-trial motions that she still has to rule on. So I think she's going to make sure that everyone's on the same page about that. I wonder whether she has decided, the ones that were fully brief,

whether she has those decisions, and if so, I anticipate she'll hand those down as well. And then of course, there is the, what she has to do with respect to the Supreme Court ruling on presidential immunity. She's going to determine exactly how that's going to be handled because certain things in the indictment are clearly out and other things, I think she's going to have to make a determination whether they are official acts and then therefore they would be out

of the indictment and out of the case. They can't even be used as evidence or unofficial acts. So that's something else. She's gonna have to tell the parties or hear from the parties. How should she do that? I think it will be through a hearing and I think it'll be a hearing where where the special counsel puts on evidence and then she will make a determination. But I think what they'll talk about is more of a procedural how it will happen and when it will happen. I think she'll do it quickly. And finally, I think she also has to apply the Fisher versus United States case that was, that also came down by the United States Supreme Court, which agreed with Judge Carl Nickell, by the United States Supreme Court, which agreed with Judge Carl Nicol,

when Judge Nicol, who is in the DC trial court level, ruled that the January 6 cases, could not, you could not use 18 USC 1512, which is obstruction of official proceeding, in many of those cases because they require some sort of documentary or document obstruction. You can't just obstruct by barging into Congress and threatening to kill the person who's trying to hold the official proceeding.

That's not enough. It has to be through some sort of paper document or, or evidence like that. And so she's going to have to apply that new, that interpretation, I should say, of the law to the two counts, two of the four counts that Donald Trump is charged with here of obstruction of an official proceeding. So, so she has a lot of work to do. I think she'll do it quickly. And a lot of these motions have already been briefed, but some like the presidential immunity, they have some work to do there.

So I think she'll set a motion schedule for what needs to still be briefed, and she'll set a hearing schedule for what there need to be hearings. And I think she will move this along quickly. That's how I see it happening. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that it's not gonna be a Judge Cannon special

down at Mar-a-Lago where things that should take, I mean, what Judge Chutkin has demonstrated that she will do in weeks has taken Judge Cannon years, and she hasn't even done it yet. And so I think you're right. The things that were fully briefed at the time the pin was put in the case in December, it's hard to believe, December 2023, she's going to pull the pin and she's going to issue her rulings. The ones that were half briefed, she's going to set a briefing schedule and give people time to do it. She had originally said when she put the pin in that whenever she got the case back she was gonna add 89 days. That was

about the time that was left on the clock in the prep, that seven-month prep that she had originally established for the parties, mainly Donald Trump. I think she's gonna stick to that. She's gonna say we got 90 days to put this case on for trial, which would mean September, October, November. What else is happening in November of 2024 that may make Trump's lawyers apoplectic? Oh, right, the general election. So there's going to be that fight. And she'll say, all right, we'll do it in December then, or we'll do it in October then. You want less time? I mean, we're going to see how much, you know, how chaste, how chaste and she may be or singed a bit

now that Supreme Court has come down so strongly against her original position and that of the DC Court of Appeals. There's no other way to put it. They threw out the entire president with the bathwater in the way that they ruled and they didn't admonish the judge, but they did say, well, these were issues that you really should have done

with a better record and development at the top of the case. And since you didn't do it, Judge Chudkin, and the DC Court of Appeals couldn't do it, we're left with you having to do it now. I mean, that was a little bit of a smarmy knuckle wrapping by the Supreme Court. And now she's gonna, well, we'll see. I don't think she's going to come in we'll see, I don't think she's

going to come in beleaguered, I don't think she's gonna come in with her tail between her black robe, I think she's gonna do her job. And now having been given instructions by the Supreme Court, and I agree with you, I don't think she has a choice but to hold an evidentiary hearing and allow the evidence to be put on to help her sort this waterfall of overt acts into the three buckets. I know that the Trumpers, it's already leaked out, you know, you know, Chris Kise and Blanche and whoever else gonna show up is are gonna argue that no, no, no evidentiary hearing. No, no, you do it on the briefing. We just brief and she's gonna gonna say, yeah, I don't think so. I think that I gotta make a proper record. You asked for a proper record, you're gonna get a

proper record. Be careful what you ask for. I think it's gonna be a little bit of that. And on a very short, expedited basis. And then the Department of Justice has got some thinking to do too, and Jack Smith, about whether he's gonna take a red pen or a blue pencil to his own indictment and Say alright. I'm not I'm not gonna die on this hill. I am going to make In terms of my own credibility. I'm gonna make the decision and I'm gonna strike a Handful of the overt acts because I think based on the ruling and the things that they said I'm dead on arrival on some of them, some of them, not all of them, of course not all of them, and then argue it's still what's

left of the indictment still supports all of the four crimes and I think he'll do that. I don't think he's going to say no, let's just roll the dice and see what the judge is going to say. I think he'll want to maintain his credibility. Now he still has just one thing to lay out here. If this goes kind of arrive for him, the statute of limitations on these crimes have not run. I'm not saying he's going to rush back to open up a new grand jury and get a new indictment now consistent with the guidance or the rule of the Supreme Court. But he could. Of course that would delay everything because now we're basically etch a sketching this and shaking it to blank and now have to start all over again.

Could do it. I mean that's another tool in the prosecutor's tool bag. I don't think he's gonna do that. I think he's gonna blue pencil this and say this is what should survive. This is what we're arguing for, and it supports the all four of the counts. And then they're going to make the argument that right there on page eight of the July 1st decision, Your Honor, is exact. And if you read that in conjunction with Sotomayor and even Amy Coney Barrett, it gives you the guidance you need to thread this needle.

False evidence. They took the time to write false evidence citing a such and my our case when she was in the Second Circuit is enough to support a claim of interference with an official proceeding and what are the false electoral certificates other than false evidence to try to interfere with an official proceeding which in this case is the count. It's a very good argument and I think it's one that should prevail in her courtroom, and with the D.C. Court of Appeals. If it ever gets back to the Supreme Court, that's the delay problem.

Right, Karen? She makes her ruling. They don't like it. The loser, which will be Trump, will take another appeal, ask for a stay. If he doesn't get the stay, he's going to go to Roberts again, who just wrote the opinion. They know this. They know that what they wrote is an automatic return back to them, which then extends this runway out beyond what the mind's eye could see in terms of timing for the trial and that's the problem if she was left alone Just to do her job She would get this trial up and running by by like September October, but it's this appellate process, right? So what do you think the odds are of we get through an appellate process with the Supreme Court dragging its feet?

Of having this case up and running anytime forget forget the election, between the election and the inauguration? I think very low. I mean, a couple of questions I have, which is number one, I know she said she'll give them 89 days. Will she stick to that? Will she feel that they need that? Does she have to stick to that?

Will she even set a trial date knowing that most of these things we talked about will not be appealed, right? The motions in limiting and all that. But the presidential immunity, as you just pointed out, absolutely they will appeal before any trial. So she might not actually set a trial date given the fact that what you just said about the Supreme Court and delaying she might not. So we'll see. We'll see. But if she gives them the 89 days and of course they have the right to appeal all of this,

I think the chances are very low if at all. Or I think you're right about that, but we gotta continue to plug forward. Democracy demands it and our justice system demands it. And as Judge Ludic said in an interview with me, you gotta throw the political calendar out the window. You gotta do the right thing, even if it straddles the election day

and the inauguration day. But we've got a uncooperative, is putting it mildly, Supreme Court in this area who doesn't care about anything other than supporting candidate Trump in his bid to get reelected. We're going to talk about Justice Sotomayor being the victim of a carjacking and what that means in the broader context of when you have the tone at the top of a party that supports calling people and branding them the enemy of the people.

And that puts the crosshairs on the back of everybody that's involved in the criminal justice system. And Donald Trump doesn't care, even if he gets blood on his hands. As a result, we'll talk about one of Trump's appointees, you know, already having committed sexual misconduct and has resigned in Alaska. And we'll talk about what's going on, speaking of judges who should resign. Clarence Thomas, now the subject of both a criminal referral and a, in new articles of impeachment being filed against him and Sam Alito, will do all that in the podcast. And then, and we're about to, we're about to we're about to go to our sponsors two other ways to support the network three other

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contributors that do things. I do lots of hot takes. Karen has a new podcast called Mistrial with Donya Perry and Kathleen Rice, three former prosecutors and friends and colleagues all getting together talking about things. It's not another version of Legal AF. They have their own take on things. It comes from their life experience and work experience and I think it's an exciting show called Mistrial. And then if you love the intersection of law and politics and want to know more about the law side, Ben and I are doing a Patreon that's devoted to Legal AF. It's called patreon.com slash Legal AF where

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And I want to talk to you about it through your prosecutor lens. I'm sure as the often acting number one, acting Manhattan DA, and as the regular number two, you dealt with Department of Public Safety issues and issues related to threats against, fill in the blank, in public life, including, I'm sure, judges. And now we've got an environment manufactured by Donald Trump in which he's constantly talking about Second Amendment rights and retribution. If you come after me, I'll come after you. Here's a picture of me with a baseball bat next to Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan DA's head. And then he wonders why one of his Trumpers shows

up in the middle of the night and hammers Nancy Pelosi's husband's head. Why somebody knocks on the front door of a federal judge and a husband answers and is blown away literally and is killed. And this is not the only examples. As I said at the opening, the FBI executed a arrest warrant on someone who made death threats to Alvin Bragg and to Joe Biden.

And during the arrest, he pulled a gun on the FBI. This is serious times and they're not by serendipity or by happenstance. They're created on purpose. This environment of fear, this environment to suppress the vote, to make people afraid, to wait in line to vote, to make people afraid, to serve in public life, is being done on purpose by Donald Trump. And so was I shocked when there was a carjacking of a sitting United States Supreme Court member in front of her house? No, I wasn't. What I was surprised by is the, what's the word I'm looking for, the restraint

that the US Marshals used in their security detail and that they only winged him in the face and he ended up surviving and now subject to arrest. Oh, by the way, he had a high capacity magazine in his automatic weapon. I'm sorry, in his handgun. Who's in favor of that? On which side of the aisle? So I went, Karen, why don't you pick it up from you know what Donald Trump's consistently putting the crosshairs on the back of public servants

like what you were for many, many years and people that are just doing their job and it lowly paid at that in civil service for our criminal justice system. Yeah. What I look, one of the most perplexing things to me is how the military and law enforcement can support Donald Trump. And many of them do because he is constantly criticizing them. He criticizes the intelligence community. He makes fun of people who serve in the military, people who

are injured or who die at war. He calls them losers. And same thing with law enforcement. He's just so distrustful and mistrustful of people in law enforcement, including prosecutors. And he really goes after them, and yet they all support him. And, you know, in the in the Mar-a-Lago case, it's a perfect example of the things that he said in the search warrant. He said that there was a target on his back and a hit, you know, he was going to be assassinated and And they were going to use deadly physical force against him. And that the FBI was literally going to assassinate him,

which is the opposite of what the search warrant said. The search warrant basically spelled out the only time that the officers are permitted to use deadly physical force. And it's all about showing restraint so that they do not use deadly physical force. And he twists those words and he turned them around. And as a result, the FBI, there was an affidavit that was submitted to Judge Cannon asking for a gag order, asking for conditions on his release to be that he can no longer say these things. And of course, it's not an emergency.

And she admonished the prosecution for not meeting and conferring before making this motion. before making this motion, although in the motion, they specifically tried to meet and confer, but what they did was the prosecutor called Donald Trump's lawyers and what did they say? Oh, it's a holiday weekend, we're busy, we can't talk because they wanted to go to a barbecue or something.

And so they tried to meet and confer, it was an emergency. And because they blocked it, and they couldn't meet and confer. It was an emergency. And because they blocked it, and they couldn't meet and confer, Judge Cannon finger wagged at the special counsel's office and refused to even rule on this. So it's shocking to me how reckless and dangerous he is towards law enforcement. The FBI has, the special counsel submitted an affidavit saying how many different threats and attacks and other just horrific things that have happened. There's a target on their back because of Donald Trump's reckless words.

And Judge Cannon doesn't care, doesn't have anything to do with it you've got donald trump as you know threatening the prosecutors in his case putting posting a Baseball bat next to alvin bragg's head during the pendency of that case with no consequence I mean, this is how they all talk yet their supporters are the people who are Typically law enforcement first responders in military. So I don't understand that at all. And so there's this general lawlessness out there and unfortunately there's not much law enforcement can do about it because a lot of this rhetoric. And, and so the it's unclear to me whether the car jacking that happened near Sonia Sotomayor's home actually

was random or if it was targeted against her. This was every every Supreme Court justice has security detail. And that's common. It was always the case. And I don't know if it's more heightened now because of all the the threats going on and And what and and the rhetoric around Donald Trump and and and the Supreme Court So I am not sure about that but I do know that the judges Supreme Court just justices have US Marshals who protect them 24-7 sit outside their house and and

one of them it was an attempted carjacking the some somebody came along who from another cart they came in a van that they had already carjacked from somebody else and then they drove up to this particular car that had the the US Marshal sitting in it and they tried to carjack the US marshal. And he took out his gun and fired at the guy, shot him in the face. And of course, he lived, which is so odd to me how I don't even know how that could happen, but it did, which I guess is a good thing. And and it's just it's you know, they acted quickly, they acted swiftly. But how terrifying for for Justice Sotomayor.

And she has to be wondering if this was targeted toward her. I mean, it was her home, right? And these are the people who were there to protect her. So I think that the dangerous rhetoric is having real life consequences. These are public servants who don't make a lot of money. They're not like Clarence Thomas who, despite being a quote, unquote, public servant, is getting bankrolled by rich donors and billionaires.

There's actually rules around it. Law enforcement, these are men and women who, as we've always said, when the shots ring out and the rest of us are running away, they run towards the danger, not away from the danger. And they put their lives on the line. And to be just mocked and criticized and treated the way, and lied about, frankly, the way Donald Trump and his people do is dangerous for all of us. And if we don't have public servants and good men and women who are out to protect us, because

who in their right mind, when I went into law enforcement, Popak, it was an honor. It was you walk into a room, you wore the white hat, people were relieved and felt secure and safe that you were there to help them. They would thank you. You'd execute a search warrant on a, I'll never forget the time we executed a search warrant at a bunch of search warrants at a housing development where this violent gang had really had a chokehold on that community and was creating just havoc and violence. And we did an investigation and we ended up doing a big, what they call takedown with search warrants. And I'll just never forget the feeling of arriving there

and putting them in handcuffs. And the entire community was applauding and thanking us because we had finally extricated the violence from their community and there were children that now could walk to school safely, et cetera. And I just remember those days. Now it's not like that anymore. And a lot of it's coming from the Donald Trumps of the world

who are really sowing mistrust in our institutions and in our law enforcement and they have conspiracy theories and really just lying about it. And I know a lot of people who would have loved to serve and who now are saying, why? What's the point? Why would I do that? Why would I make less money, put my life on the line only to be chastised, criticized and to have my life be in danger and nothing can be done about it. So I think it's atrocious what's happening. And I think, I think we're seeing the effects of it

now. Used to be the best and brightest were attracted to go into civil service and work for the president instead now we've got I just did a hot take on it we got a guy who's out there former purported Green Beret and lawyer constitutional lawyer of some sort who's out there saying that he's the secretary or minister of retribution for Donald Trump self-proclaimed Donald Trump doesn't renounce him Donald Trump wants the chilling effect of having somebody running around saying that he's going to open up internment camps and he's going to arrest

people, suspend habeas corpus, impose martial law, Donald Trump being that, and go after an enemy list which includes the members of the Department of Justice, the FBI, Metro and Capitol Police, elected officials, senators, and congresspeople, members of the press, and the media. I thought I was, when I saw this guy, the reporting about his 8, his 850 person list that he says is in the hands of all the right-wing MAGA leadership, including the Speaker of the House and others, and that he's just ready to execute on it. He's gonna deputize 70,000 former members of the military and veterans, he said, were forced out because of COVID policy that are ready to get behind,

and along with constitutional sheriffs. Those are the ones that don't recognize the federal government is legitimate or that it exists, or the Internal Revenue Service For that matter and and Donald Trump does nothing. It's all stand back and stand by seems like a good guy I don't really know much about him because he wants that chilling effect that in terrarium effect To sit over the American people as they think about should I wait in line to vote? Should I have my son or daughter or myself or somebody else

go into public service, go into the military, go to the FBI, go to the secret service or anything like that? This is the plot against America. Philip Roth talked about it years ago. When I heard about this guy that I just described, I thought I was watching a long lost episode of the boys on Amazon Prime or whatever. I was like, are you kidding me is and when I see when I see Donald Trump riding around on a golf cart and Praising his son Baron six foot seven Baron. I think I'm watching a homelander in Ryan For those that little insider there for those that watch the show. That's that's what it's about man So let's switch gears here and move to the northern exposure

And talk about judge Joshua Kindred who decided that he was gonna operate his rural federal chambers like some sort of you know sex shop where he'd be chasing after female law clerks and making them upset and ridicule them if they tried to stop his hostile work environment in his chambers and only waited to the very last minute, only when he knew the report was coming out to resign. Here's my question for you when you take it, Karen. Does a guy like that, is that now a badge of honor

in MAGA world that he was a misogynist and a sex abuser and a sex harasser just like the former the former president is running for office does he does this guy get somehow elevated in that world are we completely upside down or is he just a disgusting depraved individual that should climb back under the rock that he apparently got out from under. You know, this is discussed like, this is horrendous and disgusting, but I know exactly what you mean, because there is this world of MAGA Trump or people who view sexual prowess as virility. I mean, they view this as somehow a good thing.

And so I think you are onto something, Popak. I do think that this is potentially a badge of honor in that world. I mean, apparently he talked about his sex life with clerks. He asked about their relationships. He had unwanted sexual conduct or contact, I should say. He brought drugs to parties, or at least he said he was going to. He was a tough guy. He was going to punch Supreme Court justices, et cetera.

And meanwhile, all these poor, unsuspecting clerks feel like they can't do anything about it. These are young lawyers in the beginning of their career Mostly women who the and and they're working for judges who have lifetime appointments There's little you can do that anyone can do about it. I mean they thankfully someone got him to resign Voluntarily or You know, whatever you want to call it, you know force resignation voluntarily or whatever you want to call it, forced resignation.

But typically you have to suffer in silence when something like this happens, when there's such a difference in power, kind of a power imbalance, right? You've got a lifetime appointment. You've got a man who's obviously has a presidential appointment and he can get away with it. So I think it's really something that is atrocious, but I agree with you. This could be a badge of honor in that world. Yeah, I mean, and the fact that this judge, now former judge, under threat of being impeached after this 30-page report came out publicly, it was generated May 23, but we didn't learn about it

until now. It was just made public. And he knew it was going to be made public, so he issued a two line, I resign to the president of the United States, giving him an opportunity to fill it. But I was also struck by yet another example of a MAGA Republican lawyer lying under oath and getting caught in

a tribunal. I mean one of the many reasons and you've outlined some of them that Kindred is no longer a federal judge at the ripe old age of I don't know 40 something is because he lied during his own opening statements about the sexual conduct that he had unwanted attack on the former federal clerk that was now an AUSA, an assistant US attorney. He lied under oath to the panel in the Ninth Circuit investigating him. And this lack of respect for the institution of the court, of the judges, to try to destabilize them, undermine them. I mean, we just had an example, we won't cover it tonight.

We'll do hot takes on it instead. Rudy Giuliani is about to get his bankruptcy filing dismissed by the bankruptcy judge as basically a bad faith bankruptcy filing, meaning he'll have no more bankruptcy protection and all the creditors, including the $148 million judgment held by Ruby Freeman and Shae Moss, is fair game against anything they can find. Go get his assets, sell his assets. He will no longer have bankruptcy

protection. One of the reasons is, as he did in the federal courthouse in front of Judge Barrel Howell leading to the defamation judgments for Ruby Freeman and Jay Moss is because he couldn't control himself. He kept yelling and screaming and acting out and continuing to defame them during the court proceeding. He did the same thing during the bankruptcy proceeding. Sean Lane is not somebody to be trifled with, the bankruptcy judge here in New York. And the fact that during the hearing just today, he kept interrupting the judge and interrupting the lawyers that were arguing that the judge was being had by Rudy Giuliani,

who was hiding his assets from the court. And he kept saying, he kept interrupting during the hearing. Something you never do in federal court or state court in front of any judge or arbitrator. You never interrupt them. It's not your podcast. You know, it's a it's a court proceeding. And he knows better. And he kept saying, that's defamatory. That's a lie. That's defamatory. And one boy, the judge had to cut him off, cut off his microphone. And he's about to hit the button and get rid of that bankruptcy. And it's all because they've learned from their fearless leader, their cult leader, the way he treats judges and prosecutors and the court system and their families. And so this is the thing that's scary, not scary to me, the thing that's disappointing

to me, but we'll have to keep our eye on is that we get in the two party system that we have, one party respects the rule of law and the system of justice and criminal justice and court systems that go around it. And one does not. And that will filter down through the water supply at all the little mini-Trumps and all the little other people like Bannon and even lower. And you're just going to see, and we're back to our violent retribution again, where we're going gonna see the social, if the social contract even exists any longer, it has completely been ripped up by one party in this country who show a complete disdain and lack of respect for institutions. And the only thing judges have in their power is the power of contempt and the power to do things like dismiss lawsuits and or default judgments. And they're gonna have to continue to do that under this pressure campaign of an out-of-control half of this country.

It's just, it's just sad and mind-boggling. You and I are gonna pick up with all that. We're gonna talk about Clarence Thomas speaking, speaking about things generating disrespect for, for our criminal justice system and our justice system. We'll talk about Clarence Thomas next, but another word from our pro democracy sponsors. Green Chef is the number one meal kit for clean eating, delivering pre-portioned and prepped quality whole foods with limited processed ingredients.

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He claims when he's caught about the millions of dollars of junkets and vacations and recreational vehicles and refinancing of his real estate and the buying of his grandnephew's tuition and this, you know, exclusive hunting lodges and yachts to Putin's hometown paid for by the Federalist Society and the MAGA right-wing donors like Harlan Crow of Trammell Crow Real Estate Empire. He just says things like, well, I never had a report that before or I misread the form or I didn't understand the law. This is a Supreme Court justice that takes special delight in chastising people who he feels is beneath him intellectually have missed the point in an argument or don't understand

the law. And now we're to believe he doesn't know he doesn't understand how to read forms or how the ethics laws apply to him. He's violated the let's just call it out. He has violated the ethics laws regarding gifts that he and his wife have obtained and that he did not properly disclose, nor should he have taken them, even if he had disclosed them. I don't want to hear, there's no two sides on this. The question is, what is Chief Justice Roberts going to do about it? The answer is nothing. He's been called on the carpet to come to the Senate to talk to the Senate Judiciary

Committee and the Senate Finance Chair. Same people he goes to whenever he needs a budget approved for his gleaming marble mausoleums of justice. All the federal courthouses are all brand spanking new or look that way. He has no problem coming on bended knee and coming to Congress when he needs the money, but it's beneath him to talk about ethics. We are ethical because we are the United States Supreme Court. That's the tautology that he's created. Or as Richard Nixon used to say, it can't be illegal because I did it. A word to that effect. And so he refuses to come. He says it's an improper impingement interference with the three co-equal branches of government. I thought no person was

above the law until they are. That's a trite phrase to drop into your immunity decision, Chief Justice Roberts, but how about applying it to real world things? So he's not going to do it. how about applying it to real world things? So he's not gonna do it. Thomas isn't gonna do it. He took special delight in not recusing himself from the immunity decision when he should have given his wife's role in actively campaigning and lobbying for the overthrow of democracy

and lobbying about cases in front of the Supreme Court. Instead, he wrote a concurrence when he said, I don't even think the special counsel is legitimate. Well, the Senate Democrats led by Sheldon Whitehouse are asking for a special counsel. How sweet irony and justice. To investigate Clarence Thomas with a criminal referral to Department of Justice. So first question for you Karen Karen, is what does Attorney General Merrick Garland do with this referral by the Senate about this issue during this period leading into an election? That's one. And two, why did AOC bring the articles of impeachment knowing that there's no chance

in heck, at least right now, those articles could even be, even in the House, could actually lead to an impeachment of Clarence Thomas and Sam Alito. What is the broader principle that's important, even if you don't have the numbers at a particular moment, to get something passed? Yeah, so look, I'll answer that first. Sometimes you just have to be on the right side of history. You have to make a record, right? And you have to make a record of the right thing. And the right thing is that he, that Clarence Thomas be impeached and he can't, you just can't let him get away with it. It's so egregious. I mean, but let's talk about what's, what's really happening here. Okay. What's really happening here is he is receiving not when you, when you hear the word gifts, it's not like someone's bringing him a box of chocolates, right? And he forgot to report that these are lavish vacations. This is thousands of dollars tuition for family members. This is supporting, essentially supporting his lifestyle, private

jets, yacht trips. And it was weird. These are all they take some to Russia of all places. Like, you know, it's just something is fishy here and something just is not right. This is a Hitler worshipping right wing MAGA extremist, who happens to be coincidentally the BFFs with Clarence Thomas. and they take these lavish vacations to Russia, and he somehow forgot to, or didn't interpret the law, didn't know that you have to disclose this. This is the man whose only job, his only job in the whole world is to interpret the law. It is so clear, and guess what? I had to do it I was an idiot who had to fill out every last thing that every

person had ever done for me or given me every single year for the conflict of interest board and You know I had to sit there took hours hours to fill this out because you have to think okay Did anyone ever do this? I had a blanket rule because I hated this form so much I had a blanket rule no gifts hated this form so much. I had a blanket rule. No gifts. If you're not related to me, I get no gifts. My husband gets no gifts. That's just the way it is.

Not like anyone was trying to give us gifts, but it was too complicated otherwise. I would go out to lunch with friends, especially friends who I worked with for years and years and years, and some of them worked, and now they're fancy criminal defense attorneys or whatever they are. And so they work for a firm. They make a lot more money than me. They'd always try to put their credit card down for lunch or for dinner.

I always say, no, no, I pay for myself 100% of the time. I pay for myself. I don't want to have to worry about disclosing this. Right. This is a United States Supreme Court justice who literally is the guy who is one of nine people who's the final word, okay, the final word on what the law is of the land. And he doesn't know that you have to do this. First of all, that's bullshit. I call bullshit times 100. Number one. Number two, it is no coincidence who this guy is, right? Who he is attaching himself to and what Clarence Thomas's opinions are. This is a guy who didn't say a word, okay,

for decades on the Supreme Court until they had the majority, and now he suddenly talks during oral arguments and asks questions. No one had ever heard him speak. He just sat there. And now he's suddenly been emboldened. It's like since January 6th,

his wife is out there texting with Mark Meadows and he doesn't recuse, basically trying to, basically calling for the overthrow of our democracy essentially, and trying to stop the peaceful transfer of power, but he doesn't recuse himself from that, gee. It's just outrageous. And it's also not a coincidence

that one of the Supreme Court decisions that came out this term, Popok, basically, one of the things that this United States Supreme Court keeps doing is making it harder and harder and harder to prosecute public corruption. And so one of the cases that, and this is a historic, this has been going on for years now, they just don't want public corruption prosecuted. I don't know, maybe it hits too close to home

with them and their friends. But also what they essentially did was they made it so that bribery cases doesn't apply to gifts. If you pay them after, if you tip them, you know, afterwards, if it's a gift after the fact, doesn't count. It be before never heard of such a thing ever. And why is that? I think you know, they're wondering oh shit, you know, I I take gifts So it's just absolutely outrageous that he does this that this is happening And I applaud the senator sheldon white house Uh referring this to merrick Garland to launch a criminal investigation and calling for a special counsel to do it.

It'll never be done. I mean, Merrick Garland wouldn't probably, you know, it took him what, a year and a half to start an invest, two and a half years to start an investigation into Donald Trump. Merrick Garland is not going to do this, but he should. He should, why? It's just, what's the unfairness of it all is the lowly people like me.

The rules obviously apply to the me's of the world and everybody else, or the cops, or the people who are out there trying to do the right thing. But you've got these individuals who are above the law. You've got Donald Trump. You've got Supreme Court justices. And they're corrupt. It's not right. It's absolutely not right. And there is no doubt in my mind that this is utterly inappropriate of Clarence Thomas to not only accept all these gifts, but to also not

disclose it. That was intentional. He knows what he's doing. His job is to interpret the law. He's not a doctor, you know, who's like, oh, sorry I I only know about like cancer research. This is his job So I it's bullshit Excuse my French. Yeah, I took French. That's actually not French But I do understand how how upsetting it is Whenever I get KFA to curse on this show, it is a highlight of our podcast. We're fired up on this particular episode. You know, the stog days of summer, Karen texted us recently, like I forgot how slow the summer can be. And I think what we're watching with our audience,

and it's a good thing, is that a little bit of the fatigue and a little bit of the disappointment over about two weeks ago during the July 1st and the debate and all of that, the fog is sort of lifted. People understand that we're on a timer here to save democracy till November 5, and there's a renewed interest in what we're doing here on Legal AF at the intersection of law and politics. And so there's lots of ways to support Karen, me, the show, Ben, and me on Saturdays. One of them, maybe I should have said at the beginning, is I can't tell you how much watching or listening

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And listen to us, download us there, that helps. The comments, the chats, all goes into that mix. And then we've got all the other ways to support us. We got, you can fly the flag of merchandise. We've got t-shirts that you can buy. There it is right there. Store.mitustouch.com. Lots of Legal AF wear sitting there.

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overview over the summer of what just happened on the Supreme Court term. It seems like we're just catching our breath trying to just keep up and build the plane as we were flying it, and now we can just kind of settle down and look at the 60 or 70 decisions and the lineup and the the the sort of the rise of Amy Coney Barrett as an attempt as a potential swing vote with heaven help us Kavanaugh we're gonna have to aim for Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett for the foreseeable future unless the election turns to the Democrats favor and then a lot of things

happen that are good like a more balanced Supreme Court five to four in the other direction. So we'll cover all of that. We do it in two. This train makes two stops during the week. Wednesdays, midweek edition of Legal AF, Karen Freeman McNiflo and me. Saturdays, the weekend wrap-up show with Ben, my cellist and me. And then we do hot takes and podcasts and content on the Midas Touch Network. As we joke, it's lawyers talking about things they know what they're talking about.

That's refreshing. You're on YouTube. Karen, come on back. What do you, I always like when we end, you always have a good way to sort of frame where we were in this podcast and be hopeful for the kind of the The future in the next podcast i'll turn it over to you for the last word Yeah, look, I mean there's this constant drumbeat that we can't ignore of uh people

asking for joe biden to resign And it's just really upsetting because they're not doing this equal telling Donald Trump to step aside. If there's anyone not qualified to be president of the United States, it's Donald Trump. He is an adjudicated rapist. He is a convicted felon, 34 counts. He's been held in contempt multiple times, including by Judge Angoran and Judge Mershawn. He's been proven liar. I mean, the guy is unfit 10 ways to Sunday, yet all we hear about is that Joe Biden should step aside.

And at a certain point, if Joe Biden chooses to stay, we have to circle the wagons, we have to support our candidate. And so we are at a moment in time where it's more important than ever, than ever to get the truth out and to really try to save our democracy because that is what is at stake here.

And so I am just absolutely honored to do this with you every week. And the fact that you I wish I had more hours in the day like you, Popak. I don't know how you do it with all your hot takes, but we have to get the word out. And I'm just so honored that I can do this with you often. And we've been doing it for years because it's more important now than it ever has been. And we have to support our candidate. That just has to be the way it is. Great way to end the podcast. But it's not the end, it's the beginning, which I like the sound of that. So until our next Legal AF, our next mistrial,

our next hot take and the weekend edition of Legal AF with Ben Mysales and me, it's Michael Popock and Karen Freeman-Iknifolo signing off and a shout out to the Midas Mighty and the Legal AFers.