Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - A framework for PM skill development | Vikrama Dhiman (Gojek)

Episode Date: May 12, 2024

Vikrama Dhiman heads all things product at Gojek, including product management, design, program management, and research, across Indonesia, Singapore and India. He has over 16 years of experience building internet products, consults with Fortune 500 companies, and is among the most well-known and respected product leaders in all of Asia. In our conversation, we discuss:• The most common traits among successful product managers• The 3 W’s framework for PM career growth• The Four A’s of leveling up in product management• The right way to push back as a PM• Common pitfalls that stall PM careers• Vikrama’s advice for transitioning into product management• Why intent alone is not enough—Brought to you by:• Uizard—AI-powered prototyping for visionary product leaders• Webflow—The web experience platform• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-framework-for-pm-skill-development—Where to find Vikrama Dhiman:• X: https://twitter.com/vikramadhiman• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vikrama/• Website: https://www.vikramadhiman.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Vikrama’s background(03:56) Three common traits among great PMs(07:09) The first W: What you produce(15:40) The second W: What you bring to the table(18:58) The third W: What’s your operating model?(20:36) Three traits that make you a great PM to work with(21:49) How to improve the quality and quantity of your outputs(23:26) The art of the pushback(26:55) Common factors that impede career growth(33:39) Vikrama’s personal reflections(39:33) Choosing which skill(s) to focus on developing(46:28) The ambiguity of the PM role(51:47) The 8 axis for PM growth(56:57) Contrarian corner: Why intent alone is not enough(59:30) Lightning round—Referenced:• Taxi mafias, cash vaults, and 100% MoM growth: The story behind Southeast Asia’s biggest startup | Kevin Aluwi (Gojek): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/taxi-mafias-cash-vaults-and-100-mom• How to scrappily hire for, measure, and unlock growth | Crystal Widjaja, Gojek and Kumu: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-hire-for-measure-and-unlock• Gojek: https://www.gojek.com/en-id• SQL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL• Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/• Crystal Widjaja on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystalwidjaja• Raditya Wibowo: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raditya-wibowo-a0845436/?originalSubdomain=id• Sidu Ponnappa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sidup• Leveraging mentors to uplevel your career | Jules Walter (YouTube, Slack): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/leveraging-mentors-to-uplevel-your• Kevin Aluwi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kaluwi/• Workday: https://www.workday.com/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Small Data: The Tiny Clues That Uncover Huge Trends: https://www.amazon.com/Small-Data-Clues-Uncover-Trends/dp/1250080681• Originals: How Non-Conformists Move the World: https://www.amazon.com/Originals-How-Non-Conformists-Move-World/dp/014312885X• Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555• Miss Congeniality on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Miss-Congeniality-Sandra-Bullock/dp/B002R5HQDK• Schitt’s Creek on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Schitts-Creek/dp/B083LDRW9F• DramaBox: https://www.dramaboxapp.com/• Am I Overthinking This?: Over-Answering Life’s Questions in 101 Charts: https://www.amazon.com/Am-Overthinking-This-Over-answering-questions/dp/1452175861/• Crazy Rich Asians on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Crazy-Rich-Asians-Constance-Wu/dp/B07JGJFXBF• 9 Best Hawker Centers in Singapore—and What to Eat There: https://www.afar.com/magazine/best-hawker-centers-in-singapore-and-what-to-eat-there—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Your name has come up more times than almost any other product person when I ask people for their favorite product leaders in Asia. I created a career growth framework for product managers, which comprises of three things. What you produce, what you bring to the table, and what's your operating model? Your advice is earlier in your career focus on just getting stuff out and done. Can you show me your last PRD? Can you show me the last product note that you sent? Can you show me the product strategy, doc? You must have that impact through the artifacts that you work on.

I'm curious what you found most impedes people's career growth. How you view change, whether you are focusing on things you control. And third is how you see yourself. The moment you are able to correct those stories, you may be back on the growthback. Today, my guest is Vikrama Demon. Vikrama heads all things product that Gojek, including product management, design, program management, research, and insights, with teams across India, Singapore, and Indonesia. He has previously worked at companies like Direc-Eartel, Make My Trip, and WizIQ, and is among the most well-known

product leaders in Asia. When I ask people who their favorite product leader is in Asia, Vickrama's name has come up almost more than anyone else's, which had about how to move into product management, how to be a great product manager, how product managers often shoot themselves in the foot, and so much more. With that, I bring you Vikrama, Dima, Dima, after a short word from our sponsors. And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. This episode is brought to you by Wizard, empowering product leaders to ideate and iterate faster than ever before with the

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Thank you for inviting me, Lenny. I'm very excited to be here. So as you know, and hopefully as listeners know, I'm kind of on this quest to meet the most insightful product leaders from all over the world. And your name has come up more times than almost any other product person when I ask people for their favorite product leaders in Asia. And you're also the third guest from Gojek. So there's definitely something in the water over there.

And I want to talk about that. To kind of just dive right in, you have a very strong reputation for building incredibly strong product talent and also design talent and also helping people transition from other roles into product management, which a lot of people listening to this podcast dream to do. So I'm going to ask a bunch of questions around this area. How does that sound? Sounds good. Okay. First question is just when you think back to the people that have done best in the product management role and have had a kind of a career. a rapid career rise, what are some of the most common traits or behaviors or habits that you find in these people? Over the last decade and a half, I've had the opportunity to work with some really strong product managers, learn from strong product managers. And some of them have

had rapid career growth. When I was younger and I was starting off, I used to think it's all about the product. If you got a really cool product to work on, your growth's guaranteed. And if you got really a product which no one cares about or a stream which no one cares about, then your growth is going to be slightly slower. But as I started seeing more and more product managers at their craft, I saw that working on a cool product area is not the only thing. In fact, sometimes some product managers would come back and complain that despite their product doing really well, they've not really grown. And while some other product managers whose product didn't have the impact really grew. And as I started looking at it and as I started making notes, as I started talking to

other product leaders, what I discovered was that the really strong product managers who were also growing in their careers did some things differently. And based on that, I created a career growth framework for product managers, which comprises of three things. And I call it three Ws. So what you produce, what you bring to the table, and what's your operating model. The really strong product managers are good at usually two or three, two of the three things. The ones who rise, and when they are rising, they are performing well on all the three axes. So if you would like, let's talk a little bit more about each one of these Ws. Yeah, I would love to. I love that you put the word what at the top, and that makes it the three Ws, which is clever.

Because I find even if the acronym is not like necessary, it's really helpful to help people remember. So I totally respect what you did there. So the three is what you produce, what you bring to the table, and what your operating model is. Is that right? Absolutely. Okay, cool.

Yeah. Let's talk about these. So what you produce, a lot of people index on the impact while. And they start thinking about goals. they start thinking about direction and they start thinking about strategy, while it is important to know at what stage of the career you are and what kind of a product that you are working on. The very first thing that anyone, when you're starting off, produces is outputs.

The output can be launching a product, it can be analyzing and running an experiment, and it could even be just being a part of the team and contributing to a go-to-market strategy. focus on that output significantly. As you get comfortable with output and you start getting comfortable with working with different stakeholders, you start controlling what outputs are necessary, which is when you move to the outcomes. Outcomes are product areas, goals that you can own and or collaborate with other stakeholders on. And when you start figuring out which outcomes are necessary, that is when you move to the leadership and directional, areas. The mistake that I see a lot of product managers make is they start operating in either

output or outcomes. And when you are transitioning to outcomes, it's very important that you continue to still hone your craft on outputs. For instance, do you just give up on the go-to-market strategy or do you start making product notes which are then picked up by marketing people and are able to be used to create that go-to-market strategy? You always, always have to have to have the output and outcome, even when you're moving up the so-called career management ladder. So that is very, very critical that as you are producing, even when you are at the senior most levels, don't forget your IC routes, don't forget the IC component. And sometimes it is necessary to just pull up your sleeves and go back and keep working

on those things. That also gives you a lot of grids with others in the team as well. So highlighting one insight here is that a lot of advice you hear about how to do on your career, which you pointed out at the beginning here is it's not just, it's not immediately drive impact. That's not necessarily what you need to obsess over, which is actually what I recommend to people is just like find ways to have impact. So this is really interesting. Your advice is earlier in your career, focus on just getting stuff out and done. Don't so obsess with the impact. Can you talk more about just what, when you say output, what is that actually, what are you describing there? Is it just ship products and be helpful? And, produce something? Absolutely. So Outbooks is shipping products, but it also comes in smaller things. For instance, if you are sourcing content for your home page, what are the different avenues that you can source content from? What is the easiest to source? What is the most difficult to source? Just ranking it all in that order goes a long way. And one of the product managers actually did that yesterday and I went, wow, it just made my life so much simpler. And we were also able to, not just my life, but so many other people's life so much simpler. And we were able to take that

specific output and use it as part of our overall strategy. If that PM would have obsessed about the overall content strategy, overall how we are going to do it versus just how we are going to be sourcing it, they would have indexed on something bigger and maybe would have not even been able to make that impact, but now they were able to show something which was a small part, which was an output, but it fell into the overall outcome. The way I would, I think about what you're describing, which I actually 100% agree with is when you're starting out in your careers, execution is where you need to deliver. People just want you to get stuff done when you're just starting out. It's not like help us define our strategy and vision for the next three years. It's, we just have

stuff when you've done. Can you help us get it done well? Yes. And then essentially, the advice is as you get more senior, you'll have more opportunity to think about strategy and what to build versus just how to build it and actually execute on it. Absolutely. So focus on outputs at the start of your careers and don't forget outputs even when you grow in your career. So long those lines, just to close the thread on this idea, it's still helpful if you work on something that does have impact that matters, right?

Like how important is that? You said that you've seen successful product managers work on things that aren't as impactful and still do really well. But I guess would your advice be tried in a place that is going to drive more impact versus it's not actually that important in the early career? So I'll give you my example. In one of my previous roles, there were two product areas that were important for the organization. My product area ended up being the center and focus of the organization.

yet the product manager who was chosen to lead the area when it became big wasn't me. It was someone else. At that time, I really felt very bad that, okay, why did that happen? But now when I look back, I can see why that happened because that product manager was so much better at the overall craft of output. Yet when they were focusing on outcome, we're not forgetting the output as well. So they were just better at me on launching products. they were better at me on working with design in producing design artwork, and they were definitely better than me in running the experiments as well.

I love that. Like, yeah, basically, when you're just turning out, just like execute, well, execute smoothly, ship things on time. I'm going to say a few things, but I'm curious what else comes to mind here, just like what does good output look like? Is it do things that are helpful to your team and manager, ship things on time, bug free, have a clean roadmap, everyone's a line behind, and set nice deadlines, things like that.

I guess what else along those lines should people be like, okay, here's what I should be doing to have good outputs? Some of the things that I think are useful. So first, what's output? Output is something which is very tangibly defined, which doesn't take too much of your time, effort and energy, to visualize and think and strategize over, and you are able to quickly get moving on.

Go and ask your product leader, go and ask other leaders on what are the areas they are blocked on. Sometimes they will be blocked on, hey, I need to prepare this brief for this particular summit. I need to prepare this particular slide for a leadership review. I need to prepare a review, I need to prepare a review, which has to be done with the legal. You can volunteer and definitely own and deliver the first drafts of those, even if the final draft is not something that you won't.

That's a simple example of an output, which I feel a lot of people miss because they want to be focusing on the bigger strategic pieces. It's basically be useful. That's the way I always like to talk about this. Just like your job as a PMs, be useful, make your team more effective, help your company be more successful,

just find ways to be useful to everyone around you. Absolutely. And be useful in doing the small things which make an impact and also contributes to your learning versus being useful in areas which you think the mini CEO should be working on. Right. There's all this talk about being an empowered product manager, building empowered product teams.

I think there's an important nuance when you're just starting out. You haven't earned the right to inform strategy and vision. People, like, why would people follow you at this point? Yeah. We just need to get stuff done. So that comes over time. Absolutely. And it's not just when you are starting off or when you're young.

even if you are senior and you're starting off with a new team, even if you're starting with a new company, you need to have that mindset. And sometimes you will not know the best. And we'll talk more about how to, what is your operating model, which is how you work with others. It's a very, very important thing for you to know

that you are one part of the bog wheel. You're not the entire wheel yourself. And a lot of the folklore around product, managers can make you confused, especially when you're starting off in your career. I love it. Okay. Let's keep going. Number two. Number two is what you bring to the table. Now, I think how I describe that is what is your impact on impact? So the first axis is impact, but you also need to have an impact on impact. And this is what I had missed a lot in my early career, that you put the coolest product areas. Your product area is successful and that

automatically guarantees your growth. It doesn't. You have to also show that, yes, you were a useful contributor to having that particular impact. The simplest thing on this is that is your PRD quality good enough? Are you writing the draft notes that go and circulates to the care teams, to the marketing teams, and so on? Are you making sure that you are deriving from the strategy that has being shaped or you're constantly just pushing back on the strategy. Similarly, you also, how you are drafting the North Stars, how you are working on the experiments, how you're working on the data, how you're working on the metrics. All these things take time effort and energy. And I know there is some literature and there are some operating models where people are working only at

strategy levels while all of these execution of these artifacts is being done by some other people. I don't think, especially when you are starting off, that's a very, very good thing. Even when you are mid-senior, I don't think that's a very, very good thing. You have to have to be able to produce these artifacts, which are product artifacts. Even if there are people in strategy creating their artifacts, even if design is coming up with a design brief, you need to have a cohesive product strategy. or product PRD and work backwards from PRD and product knows yourself. These things are important to show you are progressing on four pillars,

which is data and metrics, design and research, technology skills, and strategy. Product managers constantly are evaluated on this when you interview, but you also have to demonstrate these on the jobs. And the best way to demonstrate these is through the artifacts, through the notes that you are sending. So you must have that impact to impact through the artifacts that you work on. For a lot of product managers,

when I asked, hey, I was working on this very impactful area, I'm not able to have the impact on my career. What is missing? And when I go on and ask, can you show me your last PRD? Can you show me the last product note that you sent? Can you show me the product strategy, doc, that you have a collaborator,

on, can you show me the brief that you sent to the design team on the problems and the ranking of those problems? Usually you'll find something or the other missing. In cases that those are there, you will find that the pre-iteration planning, pre-sprint plannings are not running properly. You will find that the G-DRA story bowls are very empty and there's just a title in the subject and nothing gets described and so on. So you'll miss all these pieces.

So these are the things which you bring to the table, and it's very, very important that you work on these aspects as well. Finally, we have what's your operating model, which I feel is the most important thing, which you have to have to focus if you are going from mid-senior to senior level. This is essentially about communication, collaboration, organizational skills, and community skills. And across the product management,

again, because of the folklore of Sweeney CEO and others, I see that a lot of people get carried away in the way they operate as product managers with other stakeholders. There are three tenets that I define in working well as a product manager with others. Number one is raise difficult issues without being difficult to work with.

Bring out important topics without drawing importance to yourself. and finally, you are in charge of getting the decisions made and not making all the decisions yourself. I think as long as you follow these three tenants, you will have a successful relationship with across stakeholders. These three tenants are easy to say, but they become very, very hard to embody and display on a day-to-day basis. but this is essentially going to be your struggle, no matter at what level of product management you are operating at in your career or within your company.

First of all, can you just repeat them? Because I think this is really, essentially it's kind of like a mantra that PMs can kind of think back to, am I doing these things? So the three things which are very important for product managers to work with others and other stakeholders are raise difficult issues without being difficult to work with. bring out important topics without drawing importance to yourself and be able to get decisions made

without having to make all the decisions yourself. I like this list a lot. It reminds me there's a product leader I worked with who there's team kind of got pushed to do a bunch of stupid stuff. And he realized later that like, hey, it's actually my job to have been to have pushed back on doing this stuff. Like he was the head of product for this business unit and he realized like, oh, I see, I've been, that's actually what I should be doing now that I'm in this role. And you kind of sometimes forget that when you have that influence and two, that that's something you should be doing. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's always within your control and it's always with the things that are within your control that you should be controlling rather than focusing on the things that are not within your control and obsessing about those. I'm so aligned with the way you think about all these things.

Coming back to the second, actually, just to give people something they can do with this trait. So the way I think about what you described and correct me if I'm misinterpreting it is there's like a detail-orientedness, high-qualityness to the way that you should be crafting all the documents slash artifacts that you're creating your one-pager slash PRDs, your roadmaps, your strategy docs. Just like, this should be really high quality. So along those lines, what? If you're an ICPM trying to get better at this stuff, how have you found is the best way to level up in these things? Is it working with your manager and getting feedback?

Is it peers? What helps somebody get better at the quality and yeah, the quality of these sorts of documents? What you bring to the table is one of the most misunderstood attributes and aspects of product management. On one end, you could get around and say, here is my PRD, here is my PRD, here is. my Gira board, here are my stories, here is my pre-sprint planning or re-itration planning document and go. It's not just about the spread and the width of the things that you're doing, but it's also about the depth of those things as well. Some product managers, what they bring to the table is arguments, what they bring to the table are debates, what they bring to the table are pushbacks, while others

are able to channelize the questions, channelize the inputs, channelize the direction, and convert that into strategic choices, which can then shape discussions, which can then shape direction. Be the latter and you will rise faster in your career. So you kind of have these three buckets of what you produce, what you bring to the table and what your operating model is, the three Ws. So let me try to summarize and see what I missed and then and move on. So one is just like focus on executing, putting, getting things done that are helpful to your team, your company, your manager, and focus on just getting stuff out, not so much necessarily in strategy.

Even when you're a manager and a leader and VP, just like you're still responsible for producing things, not just telling people and being wise. Two, what you bring to the table, kind of my takeaway here is produce high quality artifacts that raise the bar. The way I think about this is as a PM, you kind of want to have this aura of,

I got this. People put something on your plate. You want to feel like Lenny's got this. I'm not going to have to worry. It's going to be forgotten. and I know it's going to be done well. And then the third piece is this idea of an operating model, basically just make sure decisions are being made.

It's not about you that you're pushing back on bad ideas. Is there anything else I missed before we move on? No, I think the art of pushback is another important factor because you can, if you're pushing back a lot, and the way you're pushing back matters a lot as well. You know, just don't be someone who's seen as an obstacle and the hindrance and as someone who's just very difficult to work with, but rather see as someone who's able to actually add value to whatever your leader, your stakeholders, your product area demands and you are able to advance the product and the direction and execution forward. Once you do that, I think keeping that as the intent and ensuring that your team is getting unblocked and not getting to do work on anything which is stupid or is likely to be changed, then you've really got it.

Do you have any advice for how to push back in a way, the way you describe it is not to be difficult to work with, or that's seeking importance? I guess is there like words or phrases or approaches you found are effective for pushing back against ideas that you disagree with? What I've seen that people who do push back very successfully and are still considered not difficult to work with, they are also able to bring the tempo of the conversation to a more logical space from an emotional space. I think that's such a useful skill. And I sometimes am guilty of operating on a slightly emotional.

note, which is useful sometimes. You need a war cry, you need high page, you need execution on war footing. All that is fine, but it's only fine in some cases. In other cases, it's always very important that you're able to bring it down to the logical space so that a logical and a little more equal footing of the discussion can happen. And a lot of this is something that leaders need to ensure is happening. But product managers and product leaders who are working with executives who are able to bring this tempo down and bring it to a little more logical space will also do far better in their careers and they'll also have a lot more rapid career growth. So let's talk about the flip side of rapid career growth, which is career growth that kind of

stalls. And I'm curious what you've found most impedes people's career growth. What kind of, what What do PMS do that shoot themselves in the foot and kind of slow their career? Any pitfalls do you find are important to try to watch out for it? I think part of it is on a lot of us in product leadership space. We've not done a very good job in defining rubrics, growth frameworks, and so on. But even in places where growth frameworks exist, like 3Ws, what I've seen is that three mindset shifts and changes can enable faster growth, but if those mindset and changes also can hinder your growth. So the first thing is

whether you are focusing on things you control or whether you're focusing on things that are beyond your control. Second, what's your relationship with change? And third is how you see yourself. The third is very, very powerful and we'll talk about that as well. The first is what you control. If you drew an axis of what you control and what you cannot control, as you're starting your career, most of the work that you're doing is in what you control. You're very obsessed with feedback. You're very obsessed with, okay, can I do this? Can I do this?

Okay, I'll probably not do this. I'll probably do this and so on. You're not worrying about the overall corporate strategy. You're not looking at what the competitors are doing, what is there. market cap and all those things. You're focused a lot on your craft. You're focused on a lot on your output and you're focused on how you are going. As you start becoming mid-senior, I see the conversation shifts from what can I do, how am I learning, how am I growing to why is the organization not doing this for me? Why can that stakeholder not change this thing about themselves? Why do I not get to work on

projects like this, things which start going outside your control. And it is very, very important that you keep your focus, no matter what stage of career you get into what you can control. And again, it's easy to say that everything in universe should be in your control. It doesn't happen like that. But a large number of things that impact your career are within your control. And go back to the W, three Ws that we spoke about, what you work on, what you produce, what do you bring to the table, and what's your operating model. And there is tons to do on data, tons to do on technology, tons to do on communication, collaboration, design and research, strategy, and community.

And you can spend years and years and years crafting those things. Focus on those things, growth will happen at every single stage. The second aspect of it is your relationship with change. Again, when you are younger, when you're starting off, rate of change is crazy. You are growing almost every six months. You are picking up skills in experimentation. You're picking up skills in how to analyze. You're picking up skills in how to work with different kind of stakeholders.

And since the rate of change of your skills is high, your rate of growth is also high. Again, as you start becoming mid-senior, I start seeing conversations. on, okay, maybe I should not do that. Maybe I should not take on this product. I don't know what it means for my career. I don't know what it means for my growth and so on. So your rate of change slows down. It's very important that as you get to mid-senior level,

you are constantly checking on what you can do to keep increasing your rate of change. And one of the simplest things that you can do is if you think you are four on data, figure out who, and you may be four on data out of five in data within your organization, start benchmarking yourself with the best in the industry. You'll automatically see that your scale drops. And as your scale drops, you start seeing what you need to improve and do. If you start seeing that on communication and collaboration, you're reaching four out of five

within the PMR, start mapping yourself. to other stakeholders in other functions. Again, your score will fall in your eyes and you will start figuring out what are the things that you can do as well. So keep your focus on rate of change and rate of growth will automatically take care of itself. Sometimes it also involves changing your team

or even changing your company, but those should be the last results. There are significant things that you can do within that as well. One of the final things that I see which limits you, especially as you start growing in your career and you reach mid-senior levels is how you see yourself. I see a lot of product management, and I've been guilty of that. Like, when I see that, you know, a lot of product managers, that's included me at some stage doing these things, people will come back and say, oh, I am a very high agency PM, or I'm a very

collaborative PM. Earlier on, I used to think that, okay, I need to give this kind of work to these product managers. I need to fit them with these kind of team, these kind of work areas, these kind of opportunity. But then I started understanding these things are not just signaling. They are also anti-signaling.

They are like, oh, I'm high agency. So it's sometimes okay if I am a little brash. If I cut corners somewhere. If I sometimes come across as a little rude to some people and so on. Similarly, if I'm seen as a hyper-collaborative person, so it's okay if sometimes I'm not very decisive, if I'm not moving fast, and so on, because I'm this kind of a PM. So it's very important that you check for what are the stories that you're telling yourself.

Because those stories are defining you at a basic level, which is then very hard to correct through frameworks and structures. So figure out what is the story that you are telling yourself. If you are not able to figure that out, talk to the people you trust so that they can tell you that as well. And then correct those stories. And the moment you are able to correct those stories, you may be back on the growth path again. Wow. There's so much meat and wisdom in what you just shared. I want to go in so many different directions. Maybe just to follow on this last thread. did you go through something like that yourself where you have this sense of yourself

that kind of hindered you? Okay, awesome. You're not in your head if you're not on YouTube. Can you share that? Yeah, so I'll give an example of when I joined Gojek. The very first thing that I learned in my career was SQL and Oracle. And I was very proud of the fact

that my data skills are awesome and I know several frameworks and I know several tools and so on. And when I joined Gojerk, and I saw one of your guests, Crystal, and I saw the work that she was doing and her team was doing. And I just immediately was like, yeah, no, this is not, I'm nowhere near. And similarly, I also thought that my communication skills are really good

and my product strategy skills are very good. But then I worked with people like Dito and people like SIDU, who was so good at their craft that it challenged me to see that, okay, what is it that I am missing? What is it that I am doing wrong? And it auto-calibrated me in my eyes on where it was. But that also created a hunger in me that this is what I need to fix. And I immediately corrected my assessment of myself that I'm not the strongest product manager on data. I'm not the one who knows all the strategy pieces or even strategy frameworks or how to bring everything to a strategy point of view,

or communicate it from an effective perspective. And then I started framing, I'm still in a learning phase. When I see that I'm not in that phase now, I try and make myself humble by interacting with people who are far smarter than me on different scale or reading different books, watching podcasts like yourselves, and that keeps you grounded on the fact that, okay,

you are always learning. And I also found that, you know, seeing yourself as someone who's a learner is an enabling story to tell yourself. It may not be the most exciting story. It may not be the most memorable story about yourself, but it is definitely one of the enabling stories as well. Similarly, I think one other thing that I used to say

about myself was more that I'm very high agency PM. But as I started working more in Southeast Asia, I learned that mindfulness is also very, very important. That you can, not every team, not every culture will work with you in a very hyper-aggressive style. So you, but you still need to get the work done. And I'm still learning on it. and therefore I've started using a word.

I don't want to be a high agency person. I want to be a mindful agency person. So, and you know, so these terms are very important because these are the stories that you keep telling yourself. And these also then start shaping your behavior. I do feel that I have a lot to do. I have a lot to learn on these skills.

But these things definitely keep you grounded and you keep coming back to the learning phase again. It's interesting that when you, you saw Crystal being incredibly good at working with data, you just kind of realized, maybe I'm actually not very good at this. And your reaction wasn't, God damn it, I'm really screwed and this is really depressing me. It's, no, instead I'm going to try to get better at this. And that reminds me, some of the feedback I get with this podcast is people are like, man, these people are so good. I'm never going to be this good. It kind of discourages me from

thinking I will ever be super successful in this career. Clearly, you have a different approach. Do you have kind of advice or guidance to folks that are sometimes discouraged seeing people being so incredible and helping them actually continue to level up in this rate of change you talked about versus just like, nope, never going to be that good? I think as product managers, it becomes difficult because a lot of your growth is being determined because of feedback of others. and because product management is so ambiguous and still not defined, the stakeholders can also give feedback on variety of dimensions.

Some of them may not even be important enough to give feedback on, but they are important enough for them. And so therefore they give you feedback. And therefore you have to shape that feedback in, but you also have to consider that there are these eight axes that we spoke about, the data axis, the design and research actions, access, the technology access, the strategy access, communication access, collaboration access, organizational skills access, and the community access.

You need to channelize feedback into, okay, is this an area that you're targeting for growth or not? And one of the most important things that I learned was that when I joined Gojek or even earlier, there would be so many different areas that I needed to improve on and still need to improve on. You can't improve on every single area. what overcomes you. You need to pick which is the area, which is the maximum leverage for you and improve on that particular aspect and then move on to the next area, then move on to the next

area and so on. Obviously, if you are floundering in something, if you're really negative in something, then you fix that first because that will give you the highest leverage. But if you are picking up data and design and strategy and technology all at the same time, that's when you've overcome you. So to kind of summarize the advice there is one, be actually very open to feedback you're getting. It's easy to say that. It's hard to actually listen to people criticizing you and act on it. So I think that's an important takeaway here is just actually.

Actually, feedback is a gift and actually understand that and try to act on it. I have a great interview with Jules Walter, who's at Google now, and he has this awesome quote about how whenever people give him hard feedback, it's like internally he's just like melting. but that externally is like, thank you so much for that feedback. I really appreciate it. It's very valuable.

And so that's a good way to get people to keep giving feedback. Okay. And then the other piece of advice you just share there is pick a focus area. Like I say, you're getting all this feedback. Your strategy is amazing. Your PRDs aren't great. Just like find one thing to focus on. And is there like, I don't know,

do you try to do like something a quarter, some a year? Do you have kind of a heuristic of like how long to spend on one thing? So different skills take different time. and how you are progressing also depends a lot as well. For skills which are softer in nature, like communication and collaboration and community, those are skills that you will work on all your life.

You'll never achieve anywhere near to a five-on-five on those ever. There will always be something that you will miss. There will always be a new context. There will always be a new set of stakeholders, new company cultures that you have to adapt to. For others, you have to see that what gives you the maximum leverage in your career. When you're starting off, my recommendation is that you pick between data and tech one, and definitely one on design and research and strategy.

So usually that's the combo that I recommend. My advice is if you're coming from design and research background, then you pick data or tech. If you're coming from a data or tech background, then you pick design and research. and that gives you the maximum leverage because that's a skill that you will necessarily not have developed over the years. Once you've demonstrated on two of these three between data tech and design and research, then you start focusing on strategy. We've had great success at Gojek in transitioning a lot of product managers, especially in Indonesia using this framework, and it's produced a lot of good product managers for us.

let's actually follow that thread. That's really interesting. And so the approach is you have this access of skill sets and you pick for this person moving from say customer service to product. Here's the two things you need to focus on. Can you yeah talk more about that? Yeah. For instance, we recently had two PMs, one who came from a growth background. There's actually Chris Goldstein and one from a research background. And with both of them, we use very different tactics. So we gave one of finding driver redesign, so which was very much a very design focused product. But we still have them leverage their data skills because we were able to create a PRD with incredible amount of data on exactly what different segments of customers were doing. And that then we worked with designers on what the designs and the framework for that will be. And even now, Lenny, if you will come and see our finding driver redesign next time you're in Asia, it's a piece of art. And if you would see that that was worked on by a product manager who actually came from a growth and data background, that makes it even more special.

Similarly, the PM who transitioned from research, I kept giving feedback on technology and data skills are the ones that we need to check. And I need to hear from engineers that, yes, they are able to work with her very strongly. Once she was able to do that, she's recently turned a very heated question on one of the features that we were doing into a full-blown solution with designs, with tradeoffs and everything, and able to now convert it into a question

or leadership on how we should be approaching this particular product and direction. So I think that's proven successful as well. Similarly, there's another person took who was originally from research and again worked a lot on our products, including our enterprise product, and she's doing an amazing job as well. Again, going through that path, okay, these are the things that you need to leverage. The only watch out is that it doesn't work out always.

In some cases, some PMs will pick these things up fast. And it also makes a big difference if you are transitioning when you are slightly younger in your career. If you are already senior in a function and then you're transitioning, sometimes it can take a lot of time in transitioning and picking up those skills. But it's definitely doable if you get a very strong product leader working with you who's able to shape those skills for you. And so it's sometimes okay to go a little slow when you're transitioning so that you're able to go faster later rather than getting faster somewhere and then being stuck there for a while.

This episode is brought to you by Koda, and I mean that literally. I use Koda every day to help me plan each episode of this very podcast. It's where I keep my content calendar, my guest research, and also the questions that I plan to ask each guest. Also, during the recording itself, I have a Kota page up to remind myself what I want to talk about. Koda is an all-in-one platform that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help you and your team get more done.

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Figma and Qualtrix run on Cota, take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups. Head over to coda.io-lis-lunee to sign up and get $1,000 in credit. That's C-O-D-D-A-Lenie to sign up and get $1,000 in credit. Cota.io slash Lenny. Something that you mentioned earlier that I wanted to come back to is this kind of confusion

about what the PM role is and how that trips people up in being successful in the role and continuing to thrive in the role. You mentioned this to me offline too, that's just something you deal with a lot. This frustration of like, what the hell is his job? What am I actually responsible for?

What am I not? What do you find is helpful in helping people work through that, get past that, not make that a big blocker in their career, not knowing exactly what the PM role is. I think we've been in technology product for several decades now, but we're still figuring out what an exact definition of product management is. And even the strongest definitions are slightly principled and philosophical in nature.

They're not very concrete. And that also means that every and different technology companies have gone through different journeys. they've defined the roles very, very differently. And even within a very large company, you will see that different teams, different divisions are approaching the roles very, very differently as well. And on top of that, what that does is that not only internally, the product managers are figuring this out, their managers, their leaders are figuring these things out for them, but the other stakeholders who have to work with these product managers are also confused

and they don't know what to expect. And the number one question I get from stakeholders is, is a product manager expected to do this? Because they also don't know, okay, is this expected from a product manager or not? And my general answer to that is if this is something which is blocking the progress on the product, then yes, the product manager should work on that. But that works if the product managers have had some training and they have had some training in working with different stakeholders. and they've had something on the job. What I've figured out is that there are certain functions and there are certain disciplines which you can't define,

but you can only become better at with practice. For instance, what is an actor or what is a dancer? So these are things that you will get better at as you become skilled at it. And earlier, these things used to be looked at as something which is very artistic, only the people who are talented, or only specific kind of people can do it. But now each one of those has become method and frameworks as well.

So there are courses on filmmaking, there are courses on acting, there are courses on dancing and so on. And similarly, product management is kind of that space as well. So you have to understand there's an art to it and there's a science to it, but you can use the science to figure out the art. So that's the philosophical side of it. The second side of it is what we spoke about earlier, that instead of figuring out what is product management, figure out what's your contribution, what's your output, and figure out are you contributing on these axes on data, on design, on technology, and on strategy. And one of my favorite things is that if you created this core circles of strategy, of technology, of design, and of data,

and you created a product management circle which encircles each one of these. So you are the only discipline which is the co-collaborator for all of these disciplines and tying all these things out. So it's not about you standing alone. It's you always collaborating and pairing with someone else.

But you are the only one who's pairing with everyone else and therefore you have that unique insight which no one else in the team will have. That role can be, played by someone else. It doesn't necessarily need to be called a product manager, but if you are being called that product manager, you figure out that that's the time piece that you are, and you are, when you are added to the team, you must bring the team's overall contribution, overall energy, and overall output up and not down. I love that. Something I always tell people

is like the PM doesn't necessarily have the magical skills, other team members, don't have, it's that they don't also have another job. Like, engineers may do a great job at being the PM. They just have a, also have to build and code. And they don't have time to do all the things that a PM has to do and a designers in the same way, a researcher or a data person. And so oftentimes that's just like, there's this person

that has the time to do all these glue work things between teams. And, you know, the great PMs also are very good at these skills that help you do these things, but it doesn't mean other people can't do them. You see yourself as playing a role and not your title and not your function, and that just clarifies a lot of things for people. And different people will play different roles.

And depending on the kind of a PMUR, are you in a specific domain or you are slightly generalist? The role that you will be playing in different teams can be different, and the variety of roles that you can play makes you a better product manager. I love that. You've mentioned these kind of like four axis attributes of great product managers of all product managers. Let's just spend a little time here.

So you say basically the things you need to be doing and good at data, design slash research technology strategy. And then you also mentioned collaboration and communication. Maybe your. Yeah, organizational skills and community. I think those are very, very important because one of the things, and one of the things which one of the product managers works with me continues to say, and I really plus on that a lot, is that product manager is your community enabler in the team, in the organization,

and that community is the softer aspect, which ties everyone together towards a common mission of delivering an output. And that, I think, is a very, very important goal in today's context, especially for teams which are becoming more remote or teams where people are not co-located or they're distributed, that community aspect becomes a very, very important part that product managers need to focus on and bring and channelize as well. So let's just quickly describe each of these attributes. I imagine people might be thinking, okay, what should I get better at as a PM?

And this is an awesome list. You know, each company has their own career ladders and attributes and things like that, but a lot of companies don't. So I think for people that are trying to figure out where should I, where do I need to get better? I think this is a really cool list. You just maybe give just like a sentence explanation of each of these attributes and skills that a PM needs. So each one of those skills, like the most growth ladders, what they will do is they will

have, say, for data, they will have level one, exhibits these traits, level two exhibits this rate, level three exhibits this rate, level four, and level five, and so on. Like, that's how they'll describe it. But five is absolute ninja level data quality, like, you know, you could probably do a data startup of your own. Like a crystal, basically. Crystal. And level zero is someone who, you know, it cannot even basically define the basic metrics for this particular product and won't be able to figure out, like, what is this particular thing impacting orders or users or revenue? And so you'll really not be able to figure even that piece out.

Similarly, on design and research, it's for product managers, we focus a lot more on problems. And are you able to identify problems from a user's perspective? That's at level zero. And level five will be somebody who's able to define the user problems, but is also able to tie them to business roles as well. So that makes it the holistic. Similarly, on technology, it's one of the skills which is relatively easier to define

where you don't have any tech understanding. Like if somebody asked you what is HTTP or API or Internet, and you'll be like, okay, I don't know what it is. And while on the other end, you are able to have deep debates and could probably write technology design documents yourself as well. I think sometimes people get confused between data science and in different organizations, I see data science bucketed either in data or in technology. Either is fine as long as you are clear on what your organization's framework is.

Similarly, then there is strategy. Strategy is, I think, another area in product management which gets very confusing because there is obviously corporate strategy, there is business strategy, where's pricing strategy, there's strategy everywhere. Product strategy for me is where you are. able to define that while somebody defines that this is the mountain that you're going to climb, but, okay, how are you going to climb that mountain is basically the product strategy piece? So you are not in charge of, okay, are you focused on growth?

Are you focused on revenue? Are you focused on profitability? That's someone's choice. Are you going to pick this country? Are you going to pick that country? But once that is picked, what are the user segments that you're going to focus on? what are the needs of those user segments? How are we going to figure out what the right product for them will be,

what is the order in which we are going to work on that? That whole piece of product strategy is with the product managers. And again, in the first case, you are basically going to rely on everyone to tell you, do this, do this, do this. In second and in the level five cases, you are able to articulate a very coherent product strategy at a broad level as well. Amazing. Thanks for sharing that. I think for people that are trying to craft career ladder for product managers, this could help inform the way they think about this. By the way, when we mentioned Crystal, for folks that have no idea we're talking about, she was a head of early head of growth at GoJegh, back in the day. She was a previous guest on the podcast. I always forget how to pronounce her last name exactly, but I think it's Wajia, Crystal Wajia. Vigia. Okay, okay, great. Going in a different direction, we're going to move to Contrarian Corner. I'm curious if there's anything that you believe that other people wouldn't agree with or generally just don't believe.

I used to think intent is the most important thing, right? And when I was starting off, that used to be the advice, that, you know, as long as your intent is right, even if some of your words are not landing, even if some of the comms are not landing, that will work out. what I've seen is that it's not enough. Your actions, your behavior, and the way you communicate, the way you collaborate, that also has to communicate and show who you are as well. So intent is not enough. And that's a thing which I think a lot of people in my age group just don't get,

but people who are slightly starting off their career, it resonates well with them. Second thing, I think, where I feel that it's become, I don't know, is it contrarian or it's become politically incorrect, is that you still need to put in the effort and a number of hours is effort. And I think that's one thing which has become very politically incorrect to say. over the years when I was younger, it was the norm that, yes, you will have to put in the effort. You will have to put in the hours to grow and improve your skills. And it's not even about your growth in the company.

It's just your own growth. You have to spend the time, effort, and energy into growing. I think a lot of that is getting lost in the debates between complete workaholism and just being not very serious about your growth at all. So I think those are the two that I find myself having to explain myself again and again and why I feel this way. I completely agree with that. I find a hugely strong correlation between hours you put into the work you do and success.

And I think there's been kind of a return to, okay, working hard is really, important and you shouldn't be afraid of promoting working really hard. So we've actually gone through everything that I wanted to ask you before we get to our very exciting lightning round. Is there anything else you wanted to share or is there anything you want to leave listeners with? No, I think it has been great talking to. I hope it was useful to people. I've tried to keep it real and but also in takeaway format. And, uh, and, uh, and, uh, it was a great, uh, and, uh, If there are any questions that you have that I feel I have not answered, I'm happy to answer them. Okay, amazing.

We'll have people post in the comments. If there's anything else, they would love to ask you. With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? Yes. First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people? The first book is a book which I feel is not quoted enough in product management community. is a book called Small Data by Martin Lindstrom.

This is a person who was an advertiser, a marketeer, who would go and make campaigns for big brands in different countries. And so would have usually very short time to get the pulse of that space and design a campaign around it. And how he got insights very quickly from, and what are some of the takeaways that are there for people working in product space, not just product managers,

but designers, researchers, strategy people, anyone really, I can't recommend that book more. And I've cited that book a lot internally. The second book that I recommend is Adam Grant's original. Originals.

I think it's a very important book. It changed a lot of things. when I spoke about that I was going through this crisis of behind so many things after joining Goje. Originals was one book that I read, which really, really helped me think about my growth and how I see myself. And anyone who is stuck or anyone who feels they are superstars,

they are the innovators of the century kind of a thing. It's a book that gives you a very good reality check. And the third book that I'll recommend is definitely Daniel Kahneman's thinking fast and slow. I think especially the thinking slow part becomes very, very important piece as well. It's not, and the reason why change is hard, the reason why feedback is hard is because we are used to thinking fast. And we are not used to thinking slow. while if you'll actually think slow, you'll actually welcome change and growth. Amazing. That book's come up a bunch actually recently on the podcast. And it's always sitting

under my laptop, holding up my laptop for these interviews. So I fully agree. Next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoy? I haven't seen a lot of movies recently, I think. But while I was on the flight, back from Dubai, I saw a miscongeniality again, and I really, really enjoyed it. I thought it's a very fun movie, but also had a pretty good message. I know it's probably not the movie which anyone would want to cite it, but I think it's sometimes good to just watch good entertainment. That's quite the Cruturian pick.

Yeah, nobody has cited this movie, miscongeniality. This is the first way I love it. Way out there, I would never would have expected this. In terms of TV shows, I think the show that I really go back to all the time is Schitt's Creek. I think it's a show which operates at so many different levels without taking itself that seriously. And it just lands. And especially as a product manager and as a leader who obsesses a lot about diversity, I think it did a fantastic job in showing different sides of motherhood, of the LGBTIQI communities,

and also teenage goals figuring themselves out as well. I think it did a fantastic job. Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates when you're hiring product manager especially? So it's not really one question, but what I like to do with them, is to brainstorm choices on an actual product. And I typically pick up a product that they use most often. And then I will be like, okay, what if this product were to do this? Then what do you think it makes sense?

Don't think it makes sense. What about this? Okay, how would it evolve in six months? What would happen in 12 months and so on? I think it gives you a far better insight into how would it be on working with them. on a real case. And you also keep, and what I like about it is that you can keep going back,

uh, and deeper into it, uh, and develop it together. So I typically try and pick product that I, um, I will also not have very strong opinions on so that it can become a two way, um,

a conversation. What do you actually look for in an answer that tells you, okay, this candidate is amazing versus flags that are like, Maybe not. There are some obvious checkmarks that are they able to first abstract out and figure out what the overall goals for the product are, who they users for that product are. What would they be focusing on right now, whether this will align with that or not? And then reason backwards that, okay, maybe this may not work, but something on these lines, are you obsessed about this feature?

are you obsessed about what this enables you to do? So this is what it enables you to do, then are you okay with considering some other options and so on? So I think that's the direction, which usually goes in the right way. Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love? So the reason why I've not watched a lot of drama or TV recently is because I've discovered these short video apps,

through Instagram and all of these apps, they dub Chinese TV serials into English, or there will be subtitles in English, and they are delivered in TikTok style two-minute videos. And it's a masterstroke in how the series are constructed. The first few episodes, which is like 10 episodes, which is about 10 to 15 minutes, sets up the story in such a way that you have to unlock the next 10. and these videos are quite expensive. They end up, one series takes more than the entire cost of monthly cost of Netflix to a view. But it's just amazing how the whole product has been put,

how all these products have been put together on unlocking the lamification aspects of it, the storytelling aspects of it, the content cutting part of it, and even the selection of the stories part of it. And what I'm told is that since once I've learned about it, I've also been reading about it. There are actually companies which are able to give you tools where you can construct this app yourself. And multiple people are two people, three people,

companies are churning these out and earning a lot of profit from it as well. What is this called for people that want to check this out. So you can start with drama box. You can start with meals and so on and there are multiple of these and those of you who are very familiar with TikTok, you would have seen that some of these show you the first 10 episodes on TikTok and then they take you to their app to view the rest. Wow. I love so many unusual contrarian pieces of advice here. I love it. Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to

share with friends or family, either in work or in life? For me, the most important thing has been that I started my career very late in tech. I was already 25. For the first several years, I worked in a small tier to town in India. I came to Delhi only in 2013, and I joined Gojerk in 2018. I think I've done reasonably well for myself. So I, and it's never late to do or what you want to do and what do you want to be. I think that's the thing that I really, really believe in and I also advise in,

especially as the world is aging and a lot of people are thinking about it. I would say that, you know, it's not too late. ever. You can be and do what you want right now. So good. It's not too late. I really, really like that advice. My wife is an illustrator designer. She has a book that she put out called Am I Ever Thinking This? It's in my background somewhere there and she has a chart that communicates that exact message in a really cute way and we'll try to link to it in the show notes. Final question. You live in Singapore. I know you travel a lot. But if someone were to come to Singapore, Is there a food that you think they need to try that's unique to Singapore?

There are multiple, so Singapore is a melting part of different cultures. There are four official languages. And so, and the only thing I will advise is depending on your taste buds, whatever you want to do, you should go and visit a hawker center. And it's very, it's an amazing experience in itself. and those of you who've seen crazy rich Asians, the first thing they do when they land in Singapore

is go to the hawker center. So it's an experience of its kind. And if you are looking for a specific recommendation, go to La Pasa. If you are a fan of Indian, you'll get that. If you're a fan of Malay cuisine, you'll get that. If you're a fan of Singaporean Chinese, you'll get that. And you'll pick what works for you.

I love that. Vikrama, I feel like we've produced both a lot of output and we're going to have really great outcomes from our conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and follow up on any of the stuff we talked about? And how can listeners be useful to you?

Thank you, Lenny. It's been great talking to you as well. Hopefully this turns out well. You can reach out to me either on LinkedIn, Vikramad Heman, or you can reach out on Twitter. Twitter works better and the listeners can be useful to me by just sharing whatever they feel. And I continuously follow a lot of people, a lot of people who are not yet famous. Just tell me what your story is.

Just tell me what you are working on. And as long as you are passionate about it, I will try and sign time. Maybe I cannot talk to everyone, but I'll definitely try. and find to chat with you and listen out and support or connect you to someone who can help you, who can help support you. That's a very generous offer. I think a lot of people are going to take you up on that. Vikrama, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much, Lenny. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating. or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenniespodcast.com. See you in the next episode.