Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - Announcing a brand-new podcast: “How I AI” with Claire Vo 🔥

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

AI is rapidly changing how we live and work. It’s exciting, but also overwhelming. If you’re struggling to keep up, and wondering how to actually use these magical new tools to improve the quality and efficiency of your work, I’m thrilled to introduce How I AI with Claire Vo—the first ever new podcast under the Lenny’s Podcast network. Claire is an engineer, three-time CPO, and AI builder. In each episode, her guest shows you a specific, practical, and impactful way they’ve learned to use AI. Forget theoretical debates—this podcast is about real, valuable use cases. Expect 30-minute episodes, live demos, and tips/tricks/workflows you can implement immediately. Whether you’re building products, leading teams, or just looking to level up your AI skills, How I AI is for you.—SUBSCRIBE TO THE SHOW→ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRYY7IEbkHLH_ScJCu9eWDQ⁠→ Spotify: ⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/4aRP2XSavdtrLG5FZoonOK→ Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-ai/id1809663079 This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Today I've got something really special for you. You may not realize this, but we're living through one of the most extraordinary moments in history. How we live, how we work, and how we build is all changing with the rise of AI. It's both exciting, but it's also often overwhelming. Many of us are wondering if we're falling behind, what we should be paying attention to and what we can safely ignore, and also just how to best use some of these new tools and technologies in our lives and in our work. That is why I am so unbelievably excited to announce the launch of the launch of our technology. a new podcast called How I AI with Claire Vow. The mission of Claire's new podcast is to show you

how people from all walks of life have figured out how to use AI tools in their day-to-day life to improve both the quality and efficiency of their work. What makes this podcast unique is that it's designed to give you highly practical and actionable tips and tricks and workflows that you can copy and start using immediately. No philosophical debates about the future of humanity or or punification on what might be possible someday. Each episode is going to be about 30 minutes, often shorter. The guest will share one or two specific use cases that they found useful in their work, and they'll be live screen sharing to show you exactly how they do everything that they

describe. I couldn't imagine a more perfect host for this podcast than Claire Vaux. Claire is an engineer, a three-time chief product officer, a founder, and on the side has been building her own AI product that's now making six figures. What I love about Claire is that unlike a lot of people online, she doesn't just talk about using AI. She lives and breathes it and builds with it and is constantly sharing everything she's learning online.

I can't wait for you to learn from her and from her amazing guests. This is the first ever new podcast under the Lenny's Podcast Network. Depending on how this goes, we may add more podcasts down the road. And just to be clear, nothing changes with Lenny's podcast. This is just more free content coming your way every Monday morning. If you're building products, leading teams, starting a company, or just want to learn how to actually use AI in your life, this podcast is for you. What follows is the first episode of the podcast.

If you like what you hear, head on over to howaiaiiipod.com to find future episodes. And a pro tip for the richest experience, since there's going to be a lot of screen sharing and live demos, you're going to want to watch the video version. So definitely check things out on YouTube or on Spotify, which includes video. Now, here is the first episode of How I AI with Claire Boe. Can you do something that used to take two weeks in two hours, and that's like a 40 times speed increase? So that's kind of like the number that I have in my head generally. Like what's the most optimistic case?

If you kind of remove all the bottlenecks, something that would take 40 hours would take one hour. If you're suggesting to us that AI is going to raise the bar on what's possible to do, you are certainly setting the standard. The majority of human engineering will be removing tech deaths. such that AI engineers can actually ship features. It's also scary, I think, which is why I think so many people shy away from this stuff. It's like there is this part of why change is uncomfortable is that Zange can kill you. There's like a fear of change. It's like job security, right? But at the end of the day, I think it's sort of also job insecurity. Hey, everyone. Welcome to How I AI, a podcast

on how AI is transforming how we get things done. I'm Claire, product leader and AI obsessive here on a mission to help you build better with these new tools. Today, I have an absolutely absolute powerhouse guest, Sahil Lavinia, CEO and founder of Gumroon. If you don't know Gumroad, it's the platform that has helped creators sell over a billion dollars of products directly to their audiences. Sehill's been at the bleeding edge using AI to transform how companies build products and write code, doing everything from open sourcing the entire Gumroad repo to paying his employees thousands of dollars if they can write more AI powered code than he does.

Today, he's going to show us exactly how he does it. dive in. This episode is brought to you by Enterpre. Enterpret is a customer intelligence platform used by leading CX and product orgs like Canva, Notion, Strava, Hinge, and Linear, to leverage the voice of the customer and build best-in-class products. Enterpret unifies all customer conversations in real time, from gong recordings to Zendes tickets to Twitter threads, and makes it available for your team for analysis. What makes Enterpret unique is its ability to build and update a customer-specific knowledge graph that provides the most granular and accurate categorization of all customer feedback and connects that feedback to critical metrics like revenue and CSAT.

If modernizing your voice of the customer program to a generational upgrade is a 2025 priority, like customer-centric industry leaders Canva, Notion, and Linear, reach out to the team at interpret.com slash how I-A-A-A-F. That's E-N-T-E-R-P-R-P-R-E-T-E-E-T, dot com slash how I AI. Hey, so I'm super excited to have you here. And before we dive into the demos, I wanted to call out something that you said a couple days ago, which is Devin, the AI engineering agent, who I also love, is writing 41% of your PRs right now.

And you expect it to go to 80% by the end of the year. So do you think that's the baseline that we should all be shooting for? do you think you're way ahead of the curve? Where should we all be compared to that benchmark that you just said? I feel like I tell the team constantly, like we have a lead, you know, but the lead is getting shorter and shorter every day, every week. There's a new model coming out. So I would say like by the end of next year, I would suspect that like every engineering team in any company is, you know, using cursor and Devon and V0 and all these tools to ship, you know, a multiple times faster. And The question is mostly like how the organization adapt such that those people can do so, right?

Like the model necks are show up in other places. Like Togi just tweeted about, you know, his Shopify AI stuff today. And I think that becomes the question is like, how fast can you actually change your organization, your culture, especially when you're remote. It's harder to make these big changes across the org to get people to learn your stuff, to try and fail and cross-share learnings, you know, all that, all that kind of stuff. Okay, so we're going to do it one at a time, which is you're going to show us how you actually redesign or build something using these tools. So we'll get your screen up and you can walk us through how you think about things. Awesome. Yeah, I mean, so I think the coolest thing about all this AI stuff is that you get to spend more time doing what you really enjoy, which to me, and I think

you as well, like solving customer problems. And with this product that we build is called Flexile. and it's, you know, you can think of it like a, like a store deal, but built specifically for the way that we run the business, which is like hiring a bunch of people, a lot of project based, a lot of hourly based, monthly retainers, all sorts of different types of people, remote in person, full time, let them choose their equity split, manage your cap table, all of that stuff, and like the same product. And one of the reasons I love AI is that I can basically just use the product. And instead of running into some issue and being like, hey, and or can you go solve this and then spending all this time, like, writing up a spec, you know, then putting that into, you know, sending that to a designer. That designer will then do like tomorrow or the next day, we'll then do a mock. There'll be some back and forth. And then it will go to like next week on Monday. It'll go to an engineer.

They may have some questions that goes back to the designer. By the time it shifts, you know, it makes it to production, even for something like relatively trivial, you know, it's been two weeks or something, right? And so like, can you do something that used to take two weeks in two hours? And that's like a 40 times speed increase. So that's kind of like the number that I have in my head generally. Like what's like the most optimistic case? If you kind of remove all the bottlenecks,

something that would take 40 hours would take one hour. And that's pretty awesome. So even in this form like pretty simple. And I built the software. I'm like, you know, I'm not like a saying, oh, it's so terrible. But there's always room to improve. And even on this one screen, which is the contractor invitation age, there's like already a couple things that I noticed that aren't big enough to like really ask someone to do everyone's busy to have their own stuff that they're working on but there are like a few things that I noticed like for example the day picker is kind of terrible yeah like it just uses like the you know the native date picker it's not humanized you know you can't type in like next Monday or this Monday or have like a nice date picker you know if you go to like chat CN and this is the beauty of open sources you know and the why AI is so good is there's a lot of open source you get like a nice day picker you know

date picker like this right it's like nicely humanized and you can do all sorts of cool stuff so that's like one thing i noticed that i think is like a really good candidate for this i would go straight to deb and i would you know it's it doesn't really really need that much scoping it's kind of just like replaced date widget you know date picker in contractor invitation screen with uh chat cn day picker we might as well i mean the cool thing with devon is you can like that do that while you do other stuff so there's there's no risk really so i can select the flexile repo and say for this specific page, update the date thicker from the browser native input to Shads.

Import, it's required. I've never actually used this button. But again, this is a good example. Even somebody using this stuff, you have to constantly up your game to learn more. Basically, I think this should be really a rich text like this. You can just type into it and you could type in, like, next Monday, I think resend at a cool demo like this where they have more like a natural language, something like this. And you could type in in one hour tomorrow at 9 a.m. these sorts of things.

Or Slack actually has something similar where if you go into a canvas, you know, this is our roadmap. If you type in like Thursday, right, this is kind of like what I think would be really cool. So I think this is also like I'm going to have Dev and do multiple versions. and then we can take a look at how far gone on them. But this is kind of how I would generally work, is I would just take these forms and say, like, you know, build this form. So you're putting into V0, you know, use this form, using the very descriptive great requirements, magical.

So, and then you're going to use V0 to get a prototype? Yeah. So generally my flow is V0, Devon, Cursor is probably how I would say it. Generally, V0 is my prototyping tool of choice. And once I have a really good prototype that I'm happy with, then I go to Devin, and if Devin sort of fails to completely finish, then I open it up in cursor.

Though I think last week, Devin launched this pairing mode where you can actually, like, jump in. And so I haven't really experimented with them yet. but that's presumably I would use something like that going forward where I could actually just jump in and fix the changes. The nice thing is Devon actually runs, you know, one of the most annoying things about being a developer is just getting set up, you know, just getting your developer environment set up, your end variables, local host. One of the tips I have for engineering organizations that are large, which is if you can make your environment easy to set up for AI, it's probably a lot easier to set up for new hires. So it pays off to sort of use that as a testing ground for how easy it is for any new engineer to get started, whether or not AI. So you have V0 in theory going, there it goes.

Yeah. Okay. So you have V0 going on building you a prototype. I have a question here, which is, you know, you mentioned Shad Sien as your component library. Was that driven by, you know, using these AI tools and, you know, those component libraries being out? of the box or was that something you were looking at before? Yeah, it was a huge reason to switch and try to adopt a lot of these tools, both. And I think it's one reason that I think many people haven't really, it hasn't clicked,

I guess, the AI stuff. They're like, oh, I tried it. It didn't really work. It's not that good. It makes a lot of mistakes. It's, you know, basically it's faster for me to do it than to have AI do it. And I find that that's like a lot of it is just like AI is good at certain things. It's really good at front end.

It's really good at React. It's really good at J-O-N-Shatsy and stuff. So if you're not using those sorts of tools, tools, you're not going to get the value. Like trying to ship something like this with like rails in the back end and like hot wire or whatnot in the front end. Like it just doesn't exist. Like you would have to spend all your time just getting this to work.

You know, some jQuery calendar thing you think, you know, that's how Gummer it was for a long time. One of the things I wonder is if, you know, engineering leaders will decide on particular transitions or migrations to make just to power this stuff so that their teams can move a little bit faster because they're just seeing themselves be left so far behind compared to those who are maybe using some of these libraries and technologies natively.

I actually think that the majority of human engineering will be removing tech debt such that AI engineers can actually shift features. Basically, like, designers will be shipping features. Because if you think about it, what are they doing, right? they are thinking about what the feature should do. And then engineers are just basically setting up the groundwork, the framework,

the defaults, the standards, the LinkedIn, the CI pipeline, the infrastructure, the dev setup, such that designers actually are more and more capable over time, like basically taking their idea. Like, if you were a designer, you know, you would like just design this part. You know, you'd design this, but you wouldn't design like all the little interactions in here, right? Like you would just design like that, because it would just take too, too long, or you wouldn't even consider it because you didn't play, you know, you didn't, for example, like often you'll have a designer and they, like, didn't consider it mobile. Okay, so you got this design.

Let's take a look at it. It looks pretty good. It has the magical date creation, which is type, there you go, type a magical date and it works. So it's not just the design, it's the functionality. And you said the next step for you from V0 was into Devon. So how does that transition work? What are you doing? Normally I would have a few back and forths here. You know, you could spend like three or four prompts, like 10, 20 minutes, like really nailing like the interaction, right?

You may say like, you know, I added at a clear button or, you know, when you had delete, it should actually delete. And this stuff will get only faster and faster and faster. But once, you know, once you're happy with what you have, normally I would take like the final prompt and I would just paste that into Devon, you know. And I would basically do similar to what I was doing before. And I can see Devin doing its thing, having lots of fun. And I can start a new Devin and basically do that. So like on here, on this page. And you reuse the exact same prompt.

Build this form. Yeah, it's often. I mean, sometimes if I'm going back and forth and I learn stuff, like, I'm like, for example, this, I may just add here. You know, like, all the, these are kind of like learning where I could, basically I'm like, oh, my spec could have been better. Like, these are things that human engineer also would have maybe not done. You know, like, I basically just kind of go back and forth and like build.

Basically, I'm like, the V0 is kind of clarifying my spec in a way. Do you use any of the code from V0? Sometimes I do. Like, sometimes I'll take this and just use this command. and if I put this and I went into cursor, if I had cursor open on something, if I'd say I had it open on this, for example,

I would just go to terminal and I would just paste this right in, and it would put in this component. This is for a different repo, so it doesn't have shots yet, but it would basically, like, slot that file in, and then I could reference the file, and you can also, I believe,

just like, you know, you could share it, and you could literally, like, just give the URL effectively, right? Like this. And you could just say like, you know, mimic, mimic this, right? You know, and you could say more things, you know. For example, I noticed that like in this thing, like, I probably don't want the date to change in line.

Like this parentheses is kind of weird. I'd probably add like a little note, you know? So I'd be like the putting the date in parentheses is kind of weird. put it below the input as a note. Yeah. I love putting it. I don't know what this does, but for some reason,

if I feel like I'm viving with this person, like they know what I mean when I say note. I mean like slightly smaller font size, like gray, you know, like note. Like I feel like a desire would get it. So, you know, this is kind of like what I would give to Devin. And then it would,

it would, you know, run off and do its thing. It'll wake up and it'll do all these things. all the stuff that I would basically do, right? Open cursor, get the thing, find the files that need to get changes. But I personally, one of the things I think is really, really important is spending more time in V0. Like I think many people just like, they do a first pass. And basically I think MVP's are no longer enough.

Like you can actually spend like 10, 20, 30, 40 minutes here. If you know that Devin is going to be able to execute, like sometimes you don't want to spend too much time here because it just creates work for the engineer, right? You're like, oh, now I have to think about this. that and this and all these little bits that would make the customer feel really good. The user experience would go up, but the developer experience would go down, right? But if you know an AI is going to be implementing all of that stuff and they're going to do it at like a very high level of conscientiousness, you might say, oh, by the way, redesign it to like have this or like, you know, different roles, for example, right?

Like different roles have different amounts. Go a preview in the drop down. You know, so one may be like 200 an hour, one may be like two pay per project, et cetera. you know, one may be 250K a year. Just for fun, I might say like one may even have multiple pay rates because I've been exploring this idea venerally. And I think part of the beauty of not doing it yourself is like happy accidents. Like, AI may just take your spec and actually do a better with it than you would have.

And so, yeah, that's kind of how I use it. And then I generally, if you're hosted, you know, depending on the projects, our newer projects are all next jazz post on Versel so they'll even give you like a preview branch right where I mostly love doing front end stuff with Dev

and actually now they have this pairing thing I could actually go in and like run Rails console and like check the back end stuff too but you know with preview branches like I love making changes to antiwork.com

because I can test them almost immediately right I can be like you know let's say a new person joined the company you know I can just say hey, add this person who joined the company. This is their motto.

By the way, pick a fun icon that matches for them. Like, I didn't pick any of these icons. I would not have made myself a king, for example. I just said, like, I basically just asked everyone in Slack, like, tell me if you want it to link anywhere and what you want your, you know, your slogan to be. And then I asked Devin to actually do it and pick an icon for each person. That brings me to something I was thinking about,

which is when you were in V0 and you were asking it to add on features, I was playing the product manager in my brain and I was thinking, oh, in past lives, people would say, no, that's scope creep. We're just focused on the date picker or we're just focused on updating this component. We can't kind of scope creep and add more and more features. And what I think is interesting, I'm curious your point of view, is you can really start to go to the edges of some great user experience. And it's less about how much time will this take or is it too complicated.

It's more about what's actually going to work and be useful. Yeah, totally. And like, I often like, I mean, maybe this annoys some people at the company. But like as I'm doing V-Zero stuff, like on other things, I'll be, I'll like go into the issue and be like, let's see if I have one here. And like, I wanted to improve the multiple pay rates per role, as I mentioned, right? Like this is and I'll, you know, be like, I'll just go in. here and be like, you know, like this one I had, I was like doing something with Gusto and I kind of

liked it, you know, and I was like, I turned on this. And it's just free. People can ignore it if they want, but it's like free design research, you know. So all of a sudden they have an example of this. This episode is brought to you by Vanta. Building a business. Achieving ISO 42001 compliance shows your customers that you're taking the necessary steps to ensure responsible usage and development of AI. But the process can be time-consuming, tedious, and very expensive. With Vanta, achieving compliance can be done in a fraction of the time and at a fraction of the cost. 95% of the required document templates are pre-built for you, accelerating the process, helping you demonstrate trustworthy AI practices and scale your business. Start with Vantas-free

ISO-4201 checklist, which gives you a breakdown of the compliance process and the road ahead. download it at vanta.com slash how I-A-I-I-I-I for the free compliance for AI checklist. You know, I see you as an individual being able to add this and fix that and update, you know, the home page and all those things and use Devon sort of asynchronously. I'm curious how you've made this work at the team level. Like, what are the actual operational pieces that have to be in place for this to not degrade into chaos? And then what about just culture makes this work for you all? Yeah, I mean, first off, it's not easy. Change is uncomfortable, right? It requires work and energy, and biologically, I feel like we're starting to save our energy all the time.

So you have to, you know, you have to motivate people. You have to make it exciting. You know, there's a reason, like, colleges and classes are in person, right? Like, there's a, it's, like, fun to train together. You know, it's easier to go to the gym in a gym than, like, at home in your bedroom, right? Part of it is doing it myself, too, you know, like, if you're manager, your annoying boss is telling you to do something. It's different than like leading from the front a little bit.

I often do like screen shares. Actually like I recorded these videos and I recorded this one with Josh Pigford on YouTube, which is like three hours long. And I basically did it because I wanted to, I was like, this isn't, you know, got a lot of views actually. Like I, that's how important I felt it was not just for me, but for everybody. But I was like basically recorded it for the team. I had my team in mind as I was doing it. Like check out how cool it is.

Like imagine once we switched to take it. and how fast we can do this kind of thing. And like how, you know, it sort of is part of that, bringing the energy. We also financially motivated people. So there's a couple times here. I'll find you an example of a Devin competition we did. So we did this competition where we did $33,000 split amongst whomever opens and merges more Devin PRs than me over the course of May. So, you know, it's kind of a fun way to like motivate people to learn.

It's time bound. And I actually did pretty well. Let's see the results. So I got fourth. I opened 27 PRs with Devon and then three people beat me. So it's, and I do a lot of easy wins, you know, so like it props to all the engineers who did it. But yeah, this is all my, all my Devon PRs. A lot of people, like, there's no way you use Devon.

Like you're making it up. You're just trying to like go viral or whatever. I'm like, not really. Like I'm just trying to like help people be. more productive. I didn't know that was so controversial. But, you know, there's like a lot of small things, like, remove this part of the home page. There was this, like, recap that we do in Slack that's generated by AI that recaps, like, everything that shipped last week. And so I said, hey, Devin, could you, you know, like,

for example, these two things don't really need to be here because there's nothing under them, right? So I just said, hey, at Devin, like, could you, like, you know, only show the products that actually have shipments and, like, hide the other ones. And also, like, some of these aren't really shipments. Like, this one is only the back end. The front end hasn't shipped yet. So, like, make sure, you know, update the AI prompt that we're using for this,

which, by the way, I've never seen. Like, I just, I just know that there's an AI prompt that's, you know, involved. And, you know, it'll, and that's actually what this, what this one is, right? So it found the Slack weekly, you know, recap. And it, you know, it made these changes. And they created this PR.

So we can actually go in and see this PR. And we can, uh, confirm. my suspicion or not, which is, oh, turns out there is a prompt. Focus primarily on shipments, feature improvements, and bug fixes, right? Prioritize these categories. And then it also did something here, which is, if we looked, it did this. It added a filter. So, you know, basically only the projects that have more than one.

The thing that I would critique about myself is that ideally we would have a test. And maybe there is a test that I don't know about. So this is when the human would come in. I don't normally just hit merge on these things. I would normally send this to somebody else and be like, hey, I did my best shot at this. And you could see here for the Slack Refap, don't include product names. And then I pasted this, the link to the update.

You know, I would normally say, hey, and you make sure this looks good to you. And if there are any tests that made updating. And personally, I think this is way better. like someone has done most of the work for you. And basically, I think humans will start the process. I think of it, like, flying a plane. Like, humans will take off, decide where to go and land, typically, you know, do QA in this context.

But, you know, not actually build, write all this code, right? Like, look up, like, for example, you know, like dot filter versus dot trim or dot clean or, you know, like, every language is different, right? But overall, I know rough amount of software architecture that like this is, you know, this is the right solution, right, to this problem. You're just adding a simple filter that removes the things. And ideally there would be a test. So I would have even higher confidence that this, that this has done what it should, you know. One thing I was going to call out on the code you just showed was I find that these AI engineering tools are pretty good engineering citizens and that their code is well commented. They call out.

There's a little bit document doc strings and things like that that make it easier to parse some of those changes. Okay, so this is what we kicked off with. It's the native date picker replaced with the Shad-CN one. Yeah, so the core problem I have here, which I guess is I need to make sure it works. Okay, so you're showing the time lapse of Devin here, which is basically a screen recording of every. single step along the way. Right now you're in the terminal and the IDE.

So you can actually replay step by step how Devin got all this code done. It looks like it has in here reasoning and thought and planning. Exactly. And then the part that I'm looking for and hopefully it did it is that it would run

the app locally. And it often does this, but sometimes if you have a complex app and we just open source this so that it may have like broken but it would actually run the browser in its little local box and then it would test it so let me ask it to do that run the browser and it's awake so it should pretty quickly start doing doing that and it's this is devon right here devon box mr devon and also we can watch it on this one right it's it's it's doing its little thing so because i had used magical in quotes it presumed that i wanted to call it

magical. And you can see, we actually open source here recently. So it's always working on an old repo, which is my guess of why it's not working exactly. Right. So now there are two things I decided. So replace this input, the standard input with the type date, with this new component. That's definitely correct. And then it created this component where it goes through and it it replaces it. So the thing that looks wrong here is it doesn't

It doesn't look like there's any AI magic. So it's sort of making, which maybe it doesn't need to. Maybe it's smart enough to know if I just type in today, tomorrow, or yesterday. But, you know, this probably wouldn't work if I said like three Sundays from now. But maybe that's fine. Maybe that's not actually what anyone would really do. This maybe even is a good example of something that to your point, like I think AI has really good hygiene, engineer hygiene, where it is on a micro level, like it's a better engineer than here.

human engineer would be. So you have to spend more time on like the architecture and like the planning aspect of it, making sure your execution is correct. Like calling it magical date picker, maybe it's not the correct approach. I would probably call it natural language date picker or something like that because magical doesn't really give you any insight into what's magical about it. But besides that, my guess is like this code, this parsed natural language is actually like probably really, really robust, really good. even this magical look like check out the math on this guy you know like whoa pretty simple but like how long would it you know how many times would you have to tweak it to like oh i you know like i got it wrong this like fancy ad days function like it's pretty uh pretty clever how it's doing how it's doing that find index it's getting all you know it's basically figuring out like when you type next monday it's like three days and you're adding the days to get to the right right day in the calendar and it's parsing the day base and it's like that's like this would be like a you know two years ago this would be like so impressive for like this would be almost like an engineering

challenge you know like I would hire an engineer based on this which is now they would just go to chat GPT and be like and yeah it would it would it would work so what you could do is to go back to the V0 if you really wanted to enhance this you know you could just sort of take this component and they're actually working on a way to like embed it you know bring a component back into V0 and then you could like iterate on it and the ux like a designer could even do that with V0 and then you could then pull it back in to the code base so you could kind of like do a lot of this like customer focus iteration you know on the in a wizzywig way basically like dream waiver you know versus like in code i mean like this you have to think so hard to understand

like what how do you improve the user experience looking at this right? The amount of like brain power and it just hurts my head. What I think about is imagine that an engineer took this and went a week away and came back and said, here, I built your magical natural language, you know, day picker. And you said, no, that's not really what I want. It feels like such an expensive iteration to throw out that code

and do something new, whereas you can iterate that on that, you know, in a couple of minutes or a couple hours over and over and not feel like you're wasting, you know, time and expense. And honestly, people's, like, motivation and energy, I think about that a lot as well. Yeah, if you, if you spend two weeks on something and you're, you know, your annoying CEO is like, no, that's not what I meant. It's like, you know, and then you got to spend, you got to go for a long walk in a coffee bag before you're back to work, right? So it's so much better to, like, really spend time, you know, here before. Yeah, I just leaned in.

So we got a redesign from V0 on this new employee onboarding. And not only did it get new features, but you got a beautiful update on the date picker with some suggested common timeframes in there. Yeah, this is super smart. And all I did, by the way, I just said build a really dope natural language day picker for an HR product onboarding form. So probably the critical piece is like HR, right? So it's like building it in the context of the problem you're trying to solve, which is, you know, if you're, if you're building like a, like a party planning tool, you'd probably have like Christmas or, you know, like whatever, whatever, you know, but in this case, yeah, next Monday in two weeks, you know, probably it's going to be next Monday. That's my guess is that is the most common, you know. But you could say actually we're, you know, we're based in a, you know, a country in which like we work, we start on Sundays. or Tuesdays and you can do all sorts of interesting things or we're in a you know a place in which our date you know we put the day before the month or whatever and so yeah just uh it just

yeah just a great opportunity to like really push the envelope and just like really spend more time even i love this i put the first name and last name next to each other so you can read it out nicely so we just watch you ship in a new component build a magical and now dope date picker for your employee onboarding tool. You've shown us how to get this done across your org, and you prove that you're at least in the top five people shipping PRs with Devin, or with Devon at the company. Oh, by the way, this is merged.

We got emerged. So it looks like it made no mistakes. So yeah, next week it'll be better. Like, think about that, would have been like, you know, at least $20,000. four hours. So that's like a nice 10x speed increase. This is a lot about engineering at Gumroad. And you said, you know, 41% of your peers are being written by Devon. Your writing code. What org is AI coming for next? Where the 80% of the work you think is going to be started by agents. I mean, I think you could see, you know, if you think about what are the orgs that exists,

you know, it's like design, product, engineering, customer support, sales, marketing. And I really, I don't I actually was probably more optimistic on like full automation. I don't think we're going to really get there for a long time. There's just always like a higher level abstraction that you get to operate at. So, you know, there will be, for example, like I think there's a lot more marketing automation that could happen in terms of like suggested tweets. Like, you know, it could just watch what's happening in GitHub. It could like suggest, hey, this thing, we, you know, we have a content framework. We should host about this feature right.

Right now I noticed myself having to like, you know, say, hey, this thing shipped in GitHub. By the way, only half of it shipped, only the back end. There's still all this nuance that I think, you know, marketing could get like a lot more efficient sales too, I think. Like, for example, there are all these people who sign up, you know, they show up in our database basically, right? And they're just emails, right? You go to Flexile, you sign up.

But there's, I think, a lot more automation. You know, if someone signs up to Flexile with like Sawhal and Youritimes.com, you know, you could sort of queue up an email to them. There's so much focus on customer support. We even built our own customer support product. with AI, which is great. You know, you can talk to AI and it'll help you out. But this is all, like, reactive, you know?

Well, what if I'm just browsing the page? And, you know, it knows that I'm in New York for my IP, you know, and you can wave at me and, you know, it could be like, hey, what's up? I was in New York. It's kind of cold out there. It's kind of raining, you know? And you'd be like, oh, yeah, it is.

It is rainy in New York. Why do you care? And you can have a conversation. And, you know, you're like, well, you know, it's kind of nice to be able to, like, talk about the problems customers are facing. So, yeah, I mean, there's, I think sales, like, making it more, making support more about sales, making it more proactive. I think making design more about product, making engineering more about architecture, you know, I think there's always going to be more and more stuff to do. Maybe even, like, like, like prioritization. I think I spend a lot of my time, like, you know, for example, like going through GitHub and saying, okay,

We have all these tasks. We have like 27 things. Like, what do we build first? And right now it's like in my head. Basically, I've seen all these things go live or maybe even a better example. More people would relate to would be Gumroad. You know, we have this big roadmap. And, you know, I basically, I think I'm pretty good at this.

But the reason I'm good at this is because I've seen every single thing ship. And so I kind of can very quickly sort of be like, okay, this is, this is, you know, going to generate like, you know, maybe 100 to 200,000. dollars in value for creators, creator earnings. This will probably generate like 300, 400k. But then I have to also put on my engineering hat and say, okay, this is going to take 40 hours of an engineer's time. This is going to take 300 hours of an,

and do all this math, which you can go to business school, learn about byte and all these things. And I could totally imagine a button here that's like a magical rank, right? And then it just like sort of goes through. And maybe you should actually know that because you missed out this fact, it's actually much harder to or we don't yet use Shatsy Ann until actually you're underestimating this and it could like reprioritize it right and you could do all sorts of interesting things that's like a huge i mean think about how many people at these large companies especially like they're spending so much of their time on strategy quote and code which is really just prioritization right and what we do is we just email all creators and we just put together a list of things and i just we just sent this google doc to like our top 200

creators in 2024. And we kind of like ranked this based on what they wanted from us. Because it turns out like they're the ones paying our bills, right? And we started shipping it. And imagine AI could take all it in all that data. I mean, all their sales volume we have access to right in our database. And you could somehow kind of like get a good, good sense of like, okay, what feedback should we be listening to?

And, you know, you can imagine like you just hit a button that says like, you know, assigned to Devon, you know. And then boom, it's done. I mean, that's another weird thing, though, right? It's like, well, if AI gets so good, why do you need to, we just do everything? What's the point in prioritization? Priorization is a function of, like, limited resources. So that's a whole thing.

It's like, I really, I mean, I would love to be in place where I come to the office and I have no idea what's going to happen. Like, I have no idea what we should even be building. And we spend time as a team, like, thinking about, like, what should we build? Like, we go, like, there's no issues in get in, in, in gear. Yep. Because every issue is solved. So, you know, it's cleared. We're an inbox zero.

And so it's like, okay, well, what do we do? And then we sit around and talk and pontificade and eat lunch. And, you know, we really have to think hard about like, oh, we should do something totally radical. Like open source, the whole thing, you know? Like things that, like, in, hey, I probably wouldn't suggest that. It wouldn't be in the next token prediction or even in the reasoning models. are like, okay, we should do really advanced content customization options. Okay, like, what is that?

Okay, let's go design and v0 watch of that and do a lot of research. You know, I think research is obviously going to get a lot better with AI, but still humans have to go talk to people, ask them questions, user research, design research, market research. I think sales will always be important. I think marketing will be one of those things where like the average marketing, like AI will get so good at marketing that like the level, of what's interesting to a human.

You know that meme of the Saratoga Springs guy, drinking the water and whatever, obviously, like putting banana on his face? To me, that's like a sign of how good AI is, that like that level of content production is now necessary to go viral. Like, it's insane. I can't imagine, like, how the video took to make. It's just, it's so funny.

Like, it's so thoughtful and so many funny different little, like, Easter eggs, you know? And I think that, like, that's kind of what will need to happen. It's just like you have to like up the game more and more and more. Like you know, right now artists can post like a painting on Instagram and people will be like, oh, amazing painting. But like in five years it's going to be like you need to like post the freaking movie. It's like that's just what people will expect. Like, hey, we just want to see your like 30 minute sci-fi movie that you did.

And that's like for free, sorry. That's like that's what our dope. You know, that's what's happened to our dopamine system. Or we can spend like a whole day talking about like how do we get better at recommending products on Gumroad? is there a totally different kind of, you know, recommendation experience that's like much more AI-driven and much more natural language than just like a marketplace of, you know, feed of products.

Or you can remember things about your tastes, your preferences. You know, it can learn from you or launching a community feature. I'm pretty excited about this next later this week, which is pretty big. But we, you know, there's just tons of, yeah. I mean, who knows? I mean, it's exciting. It's also scary, I think, which is why I think so many people shy away from this stuff. is like there is this like part of part of why change is uncomfortable is that like,

change can kill you, you know? Like there's like a fear of change. Like, you know, it's like job security, right? But at the end of the day, I think it's sort of also job insecurity. Like we don't know if like what we do will continue to be valuable. I can say for sure if you're, if you're suggesting to us that AI is going to raise the bar on what's possible to do, you are certainly setting the standard. I think you're showing an entirely new way for teams to build.

you're showing an entire way for a leader to show up and actually contribute to the work product of the company, which I think is really inspirational. And then I think you're also showing, look, you just have to go learn these things and try things. And you know, you're going to get in a loop. But over time, you can actually become one of these leaders that's on the leading edge as opposed to the lagging edge. So I think it's great. And I think you're setting the standard for how EPD orgs are going to operate in the future, if not companies.

So we're going to wrap up with a quick lightning round. Two questions. If you could encourage people to learn just one of all your toys here you just showed, just one that you think is the highest impact, which one would it be? V-0, honestly. I mean, it's a bias, I think, because I spend so much time in product. I think of our more of an engineer. I think Cursors agent mode is pretty crazy.

I think if you're like a CEO of a company, I think Devin is like the most impressive, like the fact that you can just be in Slack and just talk to it and it will do this. is crazy. So I think a lot of it depends on your role in what you value and what you think is the most important. But if you zero, I think it's just like the lowest hanging fruit,

I think everyone is kind of familiar with Figma. And I think a lot of people think that like, you know, okay, now people, no one questions that AI can code even though a year ago people were like, say, oh, he can't code or whatever. But now people are like,

oh, he can't design. It doesn't have taste, you know? And so it's just like really, you know, like design a really nice onboarding wizard or a bank, you know, and like watch it do

a better UI for a bank than any bank has, you know? So I think that this is like something anyone can do. Like a kid could like have fun with this. So I would say, yeah, I'd probably nominate V0. And then, you know, the cool thing about V0 is it shows you what's possible.

And so then if you want to execute on it, then you have to like learn all the other all the other tools. The other nice thing about V0 is that it comes with a URL. So you could build like a tic-tac-toe and send it to your friend and play tic-tac-tow. which is a kind of a nice, you know, a rep later bolt on you or lovable.

Like, they, there's just so many. We've talked a lot about how you are setting up incentives like bounties to get people to use AI or learn AI. But how do you get AI to do what you want? So I found that everybody has their own tactic. Like they're mean. They offer money. What is your strategy for getting AI to listen to you when it's in a little bit of a loop? I mean, honestly, capital letters, not in like a mean way, hopefully.

Hopefully it doesn't take it the wrong way. But I just think it's like, it is, you know, kind of like, it's kind of old school, I guess. You know, you have like literally like lowercase and uppercase. And like, it's just a really easy way of saying like, this part is really important. Like, please do not ignore this specific part. There's another hack that I love called Et cetera. So if you want a list of things, you, you, you, you. You can name like two of them and then just say, et cetera, and it will often, like, riff.

It's really fun to just, like, be like, it's kind of like a test, you know, it's like you've come up with two or three, but you need 10. It's kind of a nice way of letting it, like, be more, more creative. Well, this has been incredible and we have to wrap by showing you have not only redesigned your own product, but you've taken on the baking industry by generating a onboarding for a NeoBank apparently here. in V0. I really appreciate you giving us a real look at how you're building with AI, both as an individual and as a team. I think you're definitely going to inspire tons of people to rethink how they show up at work. And I think a few folks are going to be looking over their shoulder thinking that you're about to lap them once or twice on some of, on some of this building. So thank you so much for

the time. Where can people find you and how can they be helpful to you? Yeah, you can find me on, on Twitter slash X. My handle is at S-H-L. And helpful, I don't know. Just anytime you see something I've said that you disagree with or think of my thoughts could be improved upon, just reply, let me know, DM me. I'm always looking to get feedback and improve my thinking.

So I just appreciate everyone tuning in and I'm excited to see what everyone builds. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this show, please like and subscribe here on YouTube or even better, leave us a comment with your thoughts. You can also find this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Please consider leaving us a rating and review, which will help others find the show.

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