Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - Behind the product: Duolingo streaks | Jackson Shuttleworth (Group PM, Retention Team)

Episode Date: December 15, 2024

Jackson Shuttleworth is a Group PM at Duolingo, where he leads the retention team and the powerful streak feature. The streak feature, which gamifies consecutive days of learning, has been Duolingo’s most important and innovative growth lever and a key driver of their growth to a $14 billion business with almost 600 million users. In our conversation, we dive deep into the history and lessons of this feature:• The evolution of the streak feature• Biggest insights from over 600 streak-related experiments• Biggest specific wins and misses along the way• Key principles for building effective streak mechanics• How to operate a high-velocity product team• Tips for building engaging notification systems• Much more—Brought to you by:• Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-product-duolingo-streaks—Where to find Jackson Shuttleworth:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackson-shuttleworth/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Jackson’s background and an overview of Duolingo’s streak feature(06:00) The impact of streaks on Duolingo’s success(09:58) The origin and evolution of streaks(14:50) Key experiments and insights(24:38) User psychology and engagement strategies(28:36) Duolingo’s product review structure(33:07) Designing for clarity and adaptability(46:59) Developing the Streak Freeze feature(50:47) Balancing monetization and retention(54:08) Notification strategies(58:15) The Perfect Streak feature(01:00:40) Enhancing the user experience (01:04:47) Team operations and experimentation(01:18:57) Who can benefit from streaks(01:21:00) Lightning round—Referenced:• Duolingo streaks: https://duolingo.fandom.com/wiki/Streak• How to make learning as addictive as social media: https://www.ted.com/talks/luis_von_ahn_how_to_make_learning_as_addictive_as_social_media?subtitle=en• Luis von Ahn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luis-von-ahn-duolingo/• FarmVille: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FarmVille• Royal Match: https://www.dreamgames.com/games/royal-match• How Duolingo reignited user growth: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-duolingo-reignited-user-growth• You’re on fire! Or, how we brought the streak milestone to life: https://blog.duolingo.com/streak-milestone-design-animation/• Duolingo Doubles Down on Design and Animation with Acquisition of Hobbes: https://investors.duolingo.com/news-releases/news-release-details/duolingo-doubles-down-design-and-animation-acquisition-hobbes• Hobbes: https://www.hobbes.work/• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Bing Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/binggordon/• Peloton: https://www.onepeloton.com/• Bluey on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/series/bluey/1xy9TAOQ0M3r• Emily in Paris on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81037371• Multi-position ladders at Home Depot: https://www.homedepot.com/b/Building-Materials-Ladders-Multi-Position-Ladders/N-5yc1vZasew—Recommended books:• A Guide to Midwestern Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Midwestern-Conversation-Taylor-Phillips/dp/1984861336• Fate Is the Hunter: A Pilot’s Memoir: https://www.amazon.com/Fate-Hunter-Ernest-K-Gann/dp/0671636030—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Doolingo is a $14 billion company. It's hitting all-time highs, too. It just keeps going up. I think it doubled in value in the past six months. Streaks is the most impactful feature. We have right now over 9 million users with a year plus streak. If you look at the numbers, I think, has been our biggest growth lover. What Doolinga really focuses on is, you know, how do we help users build habits around language learning?

Getting user come back the next day is the biggest problem to solve. Let's get into the motherload of learnings from the journey of streaks. Talk about the key lessons, insights, and also wrong. turns along the way. I'd say like, test everything. We've run in the last four years over 600 experiments on the street. So every other day, we've actually set up really good infrastructure for copy testing. We used to say continue, our like standard CTAs continue. And we changed that to commit to my goal. And it was like a massive win. There's so much human psychology that you all learn through all these experiments of just like how to motivate people, what motivates, what demotivate?

Say that you played a mobile game, that you've done it for 3,000 days in a row. I don't know, maybe that hits a little bit different than you've learned Spanish for 3,000 days in a row. Today, my guest is Jackson Shettleworth. Jackson is a group product manager at Duolingo leading the retention team. This is a different kind of episode that I'm experimenting with, where we spent the entire conversation focused on the journey and lessons of a single feature, in this case, Duolingo Streaks. Duolingo is a $14 billion business. Just over the past six months, they doubled in value. they're hitting all-time highs in usage and market cap.

They're also one of the very few successful and also the single biggest consumer app business in the world. And as you'll hear from Jackson, the Streaks feature is the single most impactful feature that most contributed to this growth and success. In other words, you could argue this one feature created billions of dollars of value, which to me means it is worth studying in depth. In our conversation, Jackson shares the history of the Streaks feature, all the biggest wins and wrong turns they've taken along the way, what he and his team have learned about what works and doesn't work with a streaks mechanic, and also how they set up their teams to operate in a way that allows them to run over 600 experiments on this product and continue to find big wins.

I hope to do more episodes like this on features and products that you'd love to hear more about. So leave a comment either on YouTube or on Substack and tell me which product or feature you'd love to see me cover. And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcast. podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Jackson Shettleworth. Jackson, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Yeah, thank you. Longtime listener, first time caller. I appreciate it. So this is going to be a really interesting conversation. I've never done an episode like this before where we basically spent like an hour, an hour and a half going into one feature of one product.

but this is a very special feature. It's a very special product. Have you ever spent like an hour and a half just talking about this one feature with anyone? Well, internally, so when we onboard new folks to the team, I actually just did this with somebody that joined the team recently where we spent, and I was like, hey, let's spend an hour just talking about the streak.

We got through an hour and I got through about 30% of what I wanted to share. There's just so much. We'll talk about this, but there's so much that we've learned over the years. But never anything external. like this. I think we've shared bits and pieces of learnings, but this will be like the mother load of learnings, hopefully. Here we go. How Duolingo's built the street. We should title this, the mother load of learnings of

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vanta.com slash plenty. That's VANTA. dot com slash Lenny. Okay, so for people that don't know anything about what Duolingo streaks, can you just first give a brief explanation of what is dualingo streaks? What is this feature all about? Well, presumably people know, uh, dualingo is a language learning app. The dualingo streak tracks currently anyway, how many days in a row you've done a lesson. So you come to do a lingo, you do a lesson, your first lesson, you know, you'll start a streak

and then every consecutive day that you come, use the app, you'll extend your streak. And I should actually put an asterisk around how many days in a row because we also have built flexibility into the feature. So we have these things called streak freezes. It's like insurance for your streak. So it's a pretty simple feature, you know, in theory. But over time, we've layered on challenges and goal setting and rewards and, you know, social features. You know, a lot of our notifications are tied to the streak. So pretty simple feature to understand, but it's been a really rich feature for us to build on top of. Some people might be hearing this be like,

Duolingo Streaks are like, what's the big deal? There's other people that are like, holy shit, I want to learn everything. I can possibly learn about Duolingo Streaks. So many companies are trying to copy what you've learned from this. Give people a sense of the impact that this one feature has had on Duolingo's success and growth. This is, and this is not just the, you know, subjective retention PM talking. I think this is our biggest feature. With the exception of the lessons, and I think it's actually where to start that.

Like, streaks are a great engagement hack. I'm kind of the opinion that any team, any app out there can introduce a streak. And if you figure it out, it probably works to retain users. But at the core, you have to have an app that people want to use. And people really like using duolingo.

It's fun. It's delightful you learn something. And so it allows us to layer an engagement mechanic on top of that. Like the streak is really powerful. So it ships a disgusting amount of DAUs. Again, it is just, it is our one of our golden geese. And again,

what's cool is that like, you know, you look at notifications. Notifications for Duolingo is massive. I mean, you know, us sending better, you know, whether it's copy or timing. So many of our notifications work because they reference the street because users care about the streak. And so not only is it itself, us iterating on the streak, a huge driver of DAUs, but it's also something that enables other really high, you know, valuable features. I was looking up some stats before I came on. And it's pretty crazy. So we have, right, right now over 9 million users with a year plus streak. So 9 million of our users have had used Duolingo every or almost every day for, you know, well over a year, which, which is pretty, which is just, it's, I don't know, it's, I like to imagine things in terms of like, you know, okay, well, like if you put all these people in a city or, you know, in a place where it would it be? And like, it's like a very large city, nine million people.

So for a year have been, have a year long streak. that's incredible. I was just looking at the stock of Duelingo. So Dillingo is a $14 billion company at the time of recording this. It's hitting all-time highs too. It's like just keeps going up. I think it doubled in value in the past six months, something like that. And what I'm hearing from you is streaks is this other than just like the core learning feature, which is just like the product of Dillingo, this is the most impactful feature in terms of growth and in that retention specifically. I mean, if you look at the numbers, I think pretty objective. has been our biggest growth lover for driving DAUs.

And I also say a lot of it's just related to how we think about growth at Duolingo. And a lot of what we try to do is organic growth. You know, we think about growth, you know, just as much as bringing new users onto the platform is not losing them. If you're just bringing people onto the platform, then they churn, that's not going to be sustainable. And so as much as we can do to keep our users coming back and actually retaining as users, it's going to make it, it's going to give us a much easier base to continue growing idea I use off of. Perfect.

Okay. Talk about how this feature originally came to be. What was the original version of it? It was the original insight that led to be one. Yeah. So the oldest streaks are as old as Duolingo itself. We, when we launched Duolingo, we launched with the street. And I say we, I was like just graduating undergrad when Duolingo launched.

So this is well before my time. But we launched with a streak feature. The, you know, the initially how the, how the feature worked was you'd come to doolingo. you'd set a goal for yourself. And it was an XP-based goal. So duolingo, a little bit of, like, you know, nomenclature. We have an experience points-based system that drives a lot of our features in the app.

And the way you'd set it is you'd say, you know, based on what your language learning goal was, you know, maybe you have a 10 experience point goal versus a 50 experience point goal. And so extending your streak would be, hey, can you hit 50 experience points if that's what you set your goal to be. And this worked well. I think this also speaks to like how duolingo initially grew. You know, we were, Luis launched it with a TED Talk. You know, we probably had a more tech forward user base, you know, initially. And so this whole idea of like an experience point space streak system made sense.

But what that also meant is that you could have a user come and use the app do multiple lessons a day. And maybe they just set too hard of a goal for themselves and then lose their streak, which I don't, you know, you don't need to be an expert in streaks to understand that's, that's probably not good. You know, the nice thing with how we initially set it up, though, is it really did connect with what your goal was. So if you were serious, let's track how good you are at being a serious language learner. But I'd say one of the most impactful experiments we ran was about, this was actually as I was joining.

We had, or just after I joined, we had run this experiment, was to move it from a XP-based streak to just do one lesson a day and you'd extend your streak. And, you know, the risk that you can sort of imagine is, well, then users kind of care less about it because it's not connected with their goal. And we saw none of that. I mean, this was huge driver of DAUs, just making it easier to extend your streak, but I think really importantly, is still meaningful, right? Like, the unit of use,

and as you're thinking about building a streak, I think it's really important to think about what the unit of use of your app is. The unit of use for Duolingo is like doing a lesson. And so if what we care about is users coming back every day and doing a lesson because it shows that they're actually engaging with the app, then it doesn't hurt us to make our streak focus on just do one unit versus multiple.

And so that was like probably the big C change experiment that we ran, you know, at the time was moving from an XP base streak to a one lesson streak. It's also simple. And I think that's like one of the things to think about with streaks. It's always easy as a PM to like, you know, have a million goals or objectives for what you want your feature to be.

And potentially build a more complex feature. You know, one lesson streak. It's just easy for more users to understand. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. And just for folks that aren't super familiar with XP, it's basically experience points and you get them from like doing things. Yeah, you do stuff on Duolingo and then based on what you did and how well you did it, we give you experience points.

This actually drives a number of our features in our app. So leaderboards is the big one. You know, we have a leaderboard system where you try over the course of the week. You battle with 29 other people and you want to win. That's all driven by XP. So we do have other features in the app that really benefit from this XP system. The streak is just no longer one of them. Awesome.

Okay. So I want to talk about the journey from that point to what it is today, but a quick tangent. I saw Louise tweet just this week. Someone asked them, how do you decide whether to optimize for learning or engagement? And he's like, no question. Everything we do is focused on engagement because you won't learn anything if you're not coming back to the app. As an engagement PM, that was like the coolest thing he could have ever said. It's, well, again, very much as a, you know, subjectively, I guess, as an engagement PM.

I mean, that's how I've, you know, I'm sure my learning, the learning folks at Duolingo will cringe when they hear it. Like, I see myself as a learning PM as much as an engagement PM because the easiest way not to learn on Duolingo is not to come back the next day. And so if we don't make the app retentive, you will have no opportunity to engage with our learning features. Now, I do think that there is a long tale of learning where if you start to dumb down, and honestly, this is something we wrestle with the streak as well. You start to dumb down the experience and your users aren't actually learning. they're not going to care. I mean, streaks work best when they're sitting on top of an app, you know, that that users care about. But yeah, I mean, if you can't come, you know, if you don't come learn on Duolingo, you know, if you don't come back to Duolingo, then you're not learning. So now we, I mean, we track a lot of this with, you know, the work that we do, we make sure that as we're making changes to the streak, we're not hurting the learning experience. And we don't have a ton of interaction with it. So we're constantly thinking about this. But thank you, Louise, for saying that. It makes sense to me. Okay, so let's get into the motherload of learnings from the journey of streaks.

So the first version went from XP to one lesson. Talk about the key lessons, insights, and also wrong turns along the way to what we see today. Duolingo has very much, you know, has a strong, like, test it philosophy. You know, we're willing to test a lot of different, honestly, we'd much rather test it than, like, debated for, you know, days and days. So we actually followed up this experiment with, and this is a little bit later with, hey, what if we make it even easier to extend your streak? And so we actually tested, hey, if you do one exercise, just one exercise in a lesson, we'll extend your streak. And a lot of, like, the insight was good. Like you look at the funnel. Hey, there's a lot of users who are starting, but not finishing lessons. They're not extending your streak. The loss of version doesn't kick in. They don't, you know, come back. So this kind of followed that train of thought. Well, we realized when we ran this, experiment is, you know, DAU's moved not one bit. And, and what we were doing by, and this, if we go back to like unit of measure, you know, we had, we had dumbed down the unit of, and nobody thinks about, I just want to come, you do one question on duolingo. Nobody thinks

about that. So we had more, like a less clear unit of measure that we were basing our streak around. And the users that we are capturing with our streak, you know, you come, you do one or two questions on do a longer than you leave, we're like the least engaged users imaginable. And so, you know, I think that's something also to think about as you're building your streak is like, what is the user that you're solving for? So not only what is the kind of habit that you're building for, but like what is the level of commitment? And that was an example where we over-indexed on a type of user who we honestly just weren't going to keep. That was a very easy shutdown, shutdown decision. That's an awesome story. Just to comment on that real quick, just like you went, like, let's

just go to the extreme and make it just like streaks. Yeah. Get everyone. going streaks forever. And then I love that it turned out. It's not bringing the users that you want. And it's dumbing down experience. It makes me think of Farmville where you have to go and like harvest your crops every whatever hour and just like that lasts for a bit. And then eventually people are like, what what the hell am I doing with my life? Exactly. No, we, I mean, and we test every, so we, I was looking at the numbers as well, we, we've run in the last four years over 600 experiments on the street. So every other day, effective. We're running in. We're running an experiment. And they range from big like this, like changing how the mechanic works to like,

let's swap a string with another string and see if that copy is better, you know, for, for users. So we're constantly testing on, on everything. I do think that like, I'd be more careful running that experiment now. Like at some point, your streak gets big enough that, again, I got nine million users on the streak. I got to be really careful. Those are our best retaining users. You know, you've got to be careful. But in the early days of the streak, I'd say, like, test everything. I mean, see what, don't get, don't get super caught up and it has to be like this, just test a bunch of stuff and see what speaks most to users. Because I think, you know, again, you will constantly be surprised by the insights that you get from whether you, we shut down about half of our

experiments. So half of our experiments lose. We still learn a ton by virtue of running them. So super, super valuable. That's actually a good success rate. A lot of companies have only 20% experiments to be positive. What's your policy on is if it If it's neutral, do you ship it or do you kill it? It really depends. If we're adding something and it's neutral, we tend to shut it down because it's just more cognitive load. It's something that we're going to have to start building around, a new UI element that

we have to figure out how it fits indoor a system. I'd say when we do ship a neutral experiment is something that we have real conviction around, okay, yeah, maybe this was neutral, but it's going to give us a new platform to then build on top of. So that experience might be neutral, but now we can build these DAU positive experiments. My general take there is though, in that case, build that in as part of your V1 so that you make sure that like at least your hypothesis around this roadmap, you know, has play, you know, should probably be the case. But in general, shutting down a neutral experiments so you don't introduce more complexity of the app is is the way we tend to go.

Makes sense. All right. What else? What else have you learned along the journey? Well, I mean, maybe I can talk about a few different ways that we structure, you know, a few different themes that I think we lean on. So the first is focusing on the zero to seven day user experience. And I would say this is, if you look at the kind of, you know, whatever breakdown of experiments are, we run definitely more than average number of experiments on getting users to go from a zero to seven day streak. And a lot of this is because we've looked at the data for, you know, our retention curves. And what we found is that once you get to seven days, loss aversion kicks in and you retain. So going from a one to a two-day streak, huge jump in retention. Two to three-day streak, slightly less, but still huge. And it's up until day seven. Once you hit day seven, it flanns out. And it's not to say that like, you know, if you have a 30-day streak, you're way more retentive than day seven.

But not in the order of magnitude that it is from day one through seven. So we do a ton of work to get users to that point where loss aversion kicks in. and then they don't want to, they don't want to lead the app. One of the fun ones that we did, and it's honestly as much about process as it is about the feature itself was we have a feature called streak goal.

And it is, again, so much of the stuff seems so obvious in retrospect, but, you know, it was really novel at the time. You know, we had this idea of like, hey, maybe we'll just goal users to hitting a certain streak length. As you can imagine,

this is pretty powerful, you know, user psychology. And we started, with the simplest version of this. And this is how dueling out does a lot of our testing. You know, rather than design the big complex feature for V1, just do like the simplest encapsulation of what that feature can be, see if it has legs, and then just add to it iteratively over time. This is partially how we get to, you know, 600 plus experiments on streaks. They're not all big ones. But we started, and it was funny, we actually took a learning from our modernization

teams. And one of the strings that they had, the pieces of copy that they had worked really, really well was, I think it was your like 5.6 times more likely to finish the course if you subscribe to plus. So, you know, now it's super our subscription. And it was, it was a really good hook that if you, if you really cared, you'd sign up. And so we ran a similar, we had a similar thought where it's like, oh, let's just tell you how much more likely you are to finish the course if you get a 30 day streak. And so we started with that. And I think it was like, you're seven times more likely to finish the course if you have a 30-day streak. And just that message when you started your streak, us telling you that was awesome, huge win, you know, indicating an outcome.

And like, dualingo doesn't have, we don't, we have a gem economy, but we don't actually have, like, you know, it's just, it's all you learning. But being able to actually talk about it in terms of the outcomes that a user would think about, in this case, trying to finish the course was a huge win. So this is where we started and we're like, ah, goal setting. All right, we should go much harder on found some thing and now let's just beat back out of it. So we followed that up with another experiment where we tested different lengths. So we test 14 days and in 50 days. We found that they were all good, but they appealed to different users.

And so we started to realize, all right, well, we probably need to be more thoughtful about who we give, you know, these different options to. And so then we followed that experiment up with, all right, let's start with 30 days. And then we're going to let you opt out. We'll say, no, I don't think I can hit it. And our thinking was, and then if you say, no, we'll hit you with an easier goal. Because we just wanted to get you to commit to a goal. And this was a fascinating one because it was a good win to give users that easier goal

to try to capture them before they said no. But it was almost just as big a win to add that opt-out button. So we tested separately. And I'm a huge fan of testing way too many arms for an experiment, just to be able to isolate your hypotheses. But we captured, you know, just what happens if we add an opt-out button? And adding an opt-out button, and you would think, like, as a PM, oh, I'm like, you know, now users might not engage with my feature. That's a bad thing.

But it was a huge win to let them do that. And the learning here was that this intentionality of saying, no, I want it. Previously, it was just a continue button. But now it's like, no, I want to hit 30 days. And having that be an intentional decision for them, yes or no, even though, again, this had no impact. or no impact past this screen. Everything that I'm talking about now was, you know, just that screen that day and then was all thrown out. So that optionality was, was, was, you know, a huge insight.

And so because of that, we built a goal setting feature where you could choose between different goals, giving users that optionality was, was likewise a huge win. I'll say one final learning on this. Again, you talk about like friction and good and bad friction. We thought once we built a goal picker screen where you could pick between different streak lengths, we were like, oh, well, let's like recommend that users do a hard, you know, a harder goal. Thinking that, okay, well, a harder goal is going to be better retention. And we'll pre-select the harder goal for them. And this, based on all the learnings that I just shared with you, you probably imagine lost pretty significantly. We realized that like, yes, we could speed users through the screen more by virtue of picking a goal for them. But like that act of selecting, I think it's 30 days, I think it's 14 days, was where we were getting so much of the engagement from this feature.

There's so much human psychology that you all learn through all these experiments of just like how to motivate people, what motivates, what demotivates. It was like you guys should write a book on human psychology and motivation. I feel very much like an amateur, armchair psychologist with everything that, at least as far as people who want to learn languages on their, phone go. I really understand those folks. So one kind of theme I'm hearing here so far is you guys are basically just like mining for gold, just like looking for like a vein in some mine. And once you hit it, you're like, oh, this worked. You just go crazy on just testing all kinds of things to see how far you can take that one little like thread. Yeah. And I think, you know, I shared that how this idea came

partially from, you know, a monetization win that they had. I think there's a lot of, you know, because Duolingo runs, you know, I don't know what percentile we're in, but it's got to be a very high percentile of, you know, per capita experiments run for a company, you know, based on company size. We're just constantly learning so many things. And there's a really great cross sharing of monetization say, hey, this thing worked for us. Is that something you can use? So I'd say it's rare that we go into something where it's just like, let's just try something. Typically, we have some insight because of all of these experiments that we've run, that, hey, if we do this, I don't know, it's one here or it's worked here, it's driven this user engagement. If we, you know, sort of massage that

and make it, you know, try it in this, you know, scenario or like a different screen, you know, we come in at least with a strong hypothesis of this will work. A lot of times we do look and we're like, you know, a lot of the apps that we look at actually are games themselves. So it's like, all right, you're playing Royal Match or, you know, there's a new Pokemon, uh, trading card game that I'm spending way too much time on. You know, you look at these games and see what they're doing, and it's really good fodder for what we can do. But a lot of times you're at least going with a strong hypothesis based on what you've seen

work elsewhere. Got it. So just to double down on that point, it's not like just random experiments. It's here's a hypothesis. We're fairly confident or has a chance to be true. Let's try it. It's not just try everything. And I think that like how strongly you feel about the hypothesis directly ties to how hard

that experiment is. Like with copy, for instance, we, we've actually set up really good infrastructure for copy testing. I'm of the opinion that companies should run as long as you have the user base to do it. Like, copy test constantly. Like the amount of copy tests that we've had that is just like, that have won and you, I don't know, you just try things and you figure out what wins is definitely lead you in it. And if ship like massive wins from little copy changes. Is there an example of that of just like the impact? Going back to that goal screen, we used to say continue, our like standard CTA is continue.

And we changed that to commit to my goal. And it was like a massive win. Even just, you know, and again, it was like, okay, users tapping on that. What are we asking them to do? Commit to the goal. What is that going to lead them to do, commit? Not, you know, churn. Just that little copy change.

That one time right there led to huge wins. And copy changes are so cheap. Like it's just, you translate us, you know, for us, you know, we have a lot of, you know, users all over the world. the UI languages. So, but like just come up with a bunch of ideas, translate some strings. This is one where, you know, the feedback that you'll typically get from Luis, so all of our changes at Duolingo go through product review that, you know, are reviewed by Luis.

So Luis reviews every single change that, you know, we propose or every experiment that we run. To believe with copy, he's just like, I don't know, test it. Like, there's nothing better than be told by Luis. I don't think this is going to win, but sure, if you want to. And a lot of times, you know, to his credit, he's right. A lot of times, you know, our intuition was right. But it's just so cheap to do it. I think when the lift is smaller, it's great to have a hypothesis, but, you know, you

don't need to beat it up too much. So on this threat, I didn't realize Luis reviews everything you're planning to change. And this may be the answer to the question I was going to ask, which is one of the criticisms of running a product and company this way of just experimenting constantly with all these micro improvements and changes as it can lead to something like a monstrosity of a product and experience that isn't consistent and cohesive and just like that often happens, is the solution to that having the founder basically review all the changes? Is there anything else you all do to avoid it moving in a becoming Farm Bill or whatever?

It's a good example. Yeah, our product review structure where we've got our head of product design, one of the lead, you know, the product management leaders, and then Luis NPR. And because they see everything, it, you know, they have a really high product bar. And so that helps. I think over time, we just as PMs have to look at, okay, where is our feature headed? And so, you know, we do this with the streak, at least on a quarterly basis, to look at, okay, well, what have we learned? You know, how is our streak developed?

And how do we imagine this going in their future? I don't think, you know, it's easy to do, you know, and end in some sort of awful local maxima. If you're not constantly looking at your roadmap and think, and, you know, you don't have a clear strategy. For me, it's like, if you have a clear strategy for where your feature is going, hopefully all of those A-B tests are not just done, you know, to get some cheap gain. They're done with a long-term goal in mind. I do think, though, and we do this every now and then with the streak, eventually you just hit a local maxima and you say, like you talked about lunch and neutral experiments. This is a great example where it's like, all right, cool, now we need to throw a bunch of this stuff out based on all of learnings. Can we reset this real estate? Can we reset this UI, reset this feature in such a way that. is just as good as what we have now, but is way more plain or simple, that we can, again, start to layer on it.

Those are really hard experiments to get win, you know, to win, obviously because they are so optimized, but they're really important to do. Otherwise, yeah, you just end up with a kitchen sink of a feature. One other tidbit I just want to mention.

Something that the advantage you all have that other companies don't have is people want to learn, like they want to learn the language. And so getting pushed to come back to an app for something that they want to do is not an advantage. A lot of products have. So anything you want to add there of just like, this is why Deolingo might be a little different from what you're working on. I mean, that is definitely a benefit. If I had an app that, this is actually why I think a lot of mobile games do streaks differently.

Because, you know, to say that you played a mobile game and as somebody who plays a lot of mobile games, you know, that you've done it for 3,000 days in a row. So, like, I don't know, maybe that hits a little bit different than you've learned Spanish for three thousand days in a row. I think the comparison set is much larger, though, than a lot of companies give them credit for, you know, themselves credit for. And I think that there's, I mean, there's a lot of ways that companies think about their, there are very few companies I imagine out there in the world saying, oh, we don't do some degree of good for our users. Even if it's like a game, it's like, I don't know, you're like making your giving somebody a moment away from the craziness of their lives. And so I do think, though, that is contingent on companies who are going to figure out if a streak works for them to figure out how can you frame the streak in such a way that a user does feel good about it. And it's easier for, you know, a duolingo, but, you know, I think there's creative ways to phrase this for users. You know, the other thing maybe just on that that I'll say is the streak works really well for duolingo because with language learning, it's really hard to see day-to-day progress and becoming more fluent.

And fluency is not even the right word. It's like becoming better at Spanish or whatever. It is a years-long process for someone to get better at a language. I mean, Duolingo makes it easier, but you still got to put in thousands of hours if you're going to reach C1 or C2 fluency. And that is really hard to track on a day-to-day. And so the streak works really well for us because we might not be able to tell you, hey, you now know 0.0, you know 1% more Spanish.

but we can show you, hey, like, you've gotten your streak a little bit higher. And so I think this works particularly well when you're an app that is doing something that's going to be sensed or felt over a longer term to help contextualize that progress in a way that makes more sense or at least feels more tangible to a user. Great. That was a great context. Empowering to a lot of companies that aren't necessarily doing language learning. Okay. So I took us on a long tangent away from lessons and experiments you ran along the journey of iterating on. the streak. So a few things you've shared so far is just like it started being like started with

this XP idea and then went to like a lesson. Then you iterated on ways to make it simpler, maybe harder. You added street goals where you commit to like, I'm going to hit a certain goal of streak. What else? What else have you found that has worked? Didn't work. Lessons learns. You know, again, sticking with this one to seven days streak, and you know, it is the idea of a streak, particularly probably to this audience is like obvious. Like, oh, it's a streak. It, you know, goes, it just counts so many days. We've realized over time that a lot of users do not understand how a streak works. And it can be as big as, you know, as small as, well, I don't understand how streak freezes work or I don't, like my mom the other day was talking to me about it.

She's like, oh, my, I like didn't use Duolingo and I come back and my, you know, streak's still there. So like, there's like certain elements of the feature that, you know, we can do better at explaining. But even like what a streak is, it's tracking how many days that I've used. the app, yeah, the more that we can make the feature easily comprehensible to users, the more retentive it is. And we've run a number of experiments to do this. You know, as simple, you talked about, you asked about early easy copy changes that we made. Actually, this is my first win, experiment when I joined Duolingo was when you start a streak, we use, we have little copy at the bottom of the screen that just, I don't know, it's kind of like

flavor copy. We use it to celebrate you or give you context. And I ran some tests that just, just like tried to in eight words explain what a streak was. That was it. And it was a massive win because it really required like it really dumbed down. Here is exactly how the streak worked. And it really helped users just understand what they needed to do. And I think this is something that's like you kind of constantly got to remind yourself, particularly if you work in tech and you're building cool tech features, but your user base is not a bunch of tech workers to like think about, all right, who is my audience?

And for us, it's not just like tech workers. People in America, people all over the world of all ages, of all cultures. And so making sure that your feature is even something as simple as the streak is understandable as critical. What was the actual copy? Do you remember? It was, I think it's still on the app. Like start a day to extend your streak, but miss a day and it resets something like that. That makes sense to be very clear. Yeah.

And eight words. I love that. Okay. And then when you say massive win, by the way, just to give people a reference point, what do you, what does that look like? What does a massive win in this scale? Well, and it's funny. I mean, this was four years ago, but I think it was like in the order of magnitude of over 10,000 DAUs for us. And actually, maybe this small bit of context. So Duolingo really cares about the metric current user retention rate. Actually, our first ever Duolingo post with Lenny was the newsletter that our former head of product wrote, Jorge. still a single most popular newsletter post of all time in my newsletter across 300. I would highly recommend that if you are interested in this, give it a read. To summarize basically what we found is that if you wanted to drive DAUs and DuLingo cares, our growth North Star is DAUs, the metric that is most effective, you know, where a percentage change in that metric is most effective at driving DAUs is current user retention rate.

And this is just users who are not new or resurrected, getting them to come back tomorrow. And so most of the work that our teams do, our retention-based teams do, is focused on Kerr. And so the retention team that I lead focused on Kerr, it just so happens to the streak is the best feature at driving Kerr. And so this was, this experiment was the biggest Kerwin that we had had, it was like a top three Kerwin anyway for us. Just this little copy, right? And that's why I say like, that's copy a thousand different ways. Sometimes it's not the big, beautiful feature. that's going to drive the huge gains.

Huge gains sometimes is just something simple as a few words. I love this. Okay, so when you said 10,000 DAUs, I think that references you guys measure incremental impact and absolute numbers of new daily users you're going to drive attributed to that experiment. Yeah, and we do both. I mean, we'll also look at, like,

a lot of times I'll look at, you know, for retention day one versus day seven versus day 14. A lot of what I'm looking for is for us to have, a better day 14, excuse me, better day 14 impact than better day one impact because it means that users are retaining better over time. This is particularly for users that would see a feature multiple times. I just like absolute DAU numbers because as long as you're controlling for, you know, different biases like a recency bias or a novelty bias, it's a really easy way to just have an absolute comparison. You know, you start to look at percentage changes and then it's influenced

by your treatment, you know, how many users saw the experiment, but at least, you know, an absolute number is easier in my mind to start comparing. Again, there are a doubt, you know, there are pitfalls with it, but we find that that's a pretty useful way. That lesson comes up a lot on this podcast than that approach to experiment. So, yeah, you're in good, company. A quick tangent, if there's not an answer to this, no problem. Coming back to the idea of just like experimenting like crazy and not creating a product that nobody. wants to use any more long term. Is there an example of an experiment that was positive that you all decided, no, we don't actually think this is what we want in the product that ended up not

shipping? You know, retention doesn't only work on the streak, although, you know, you would think we do most of our work is the streak. We've touched a lot of different surfaces over the years. And there was one experiment that we launched that, you know, we talked about XP earlier. In the lesson, the only UI elements are a progress bar at the top. And then how many hearts you have, right? So we keep it really simple, and this very much speaks to the design philosophy of duolingo, which is simpler UI is better. And we decided, hey, let's add XP in there. And so let's show your XP ticking up as you're going through a lesson.

That's going to make the user feel good. It's going to show you what you've earned. You're going to be less likely to quit. All of these good reasons to do it. And then you finish the lesson, and then we'll show you've collected all this XP. And it won. I mean, the hypothesis was a good one. But we realized, and I remember having this conversation with Luis is like, cool, this is our most important screen in the app.

It is our lesson. It is where users learn. And the focus here is on learning. And now you've added this other thing up there to distract, you know, that could be distracting for users. And I think the question, you know, we talked about roadmaps and strategy here. The question that he had for me and I didn't have a good answer for at the time was like, so what else are you going to do with us? Like, what's your iteration ideas? Where is this going to go? Is this going to make? the lesson experience more gamified. And what we realized is that, like, honestly, it was kind of just a, you know, an easy engagement win idea, but we had touched our most, you know, sacred space in the app to do that. And so that was a case where it's like, yeah, it was a nice win, but we had added that UI element and, you know, at least at the time, it was less clear what we would do with it.

And we realized that like long term it was just going to get in the way. And we'd rather, for a simple, sake, pause that, you know, shut it down and keep the lesson, you know, to be the, a little bit of learning sanctuary it was. Now, it's funny. Nowadays, I think we actually have enough XP-based mechanics and fun things that we can do that, like, I think actually a lot of our, you know, the beliefs about the in lesson experience have changed. So something like that could work, but at the time, you know, didn't it feel good to keep that around. That is an awesome example. Hopefully we have time to talk about how the team operates,

where my mind goes is like, oh, but you have all these PMs and teams that want to show impact and the performance reviews and all that stuff and you're not shipping something. They're like, oh, look, we did it win. So I want to chat about that later. But let's keep going on things you've learned and things that didn't work on the journey. The other thing that I'll call out with the streak is, you know, it's like we have the, the image of the streak is this flame, right? And, you know, we have the streak flame and it's very much core to our iconography. it's important to acknowledge that that's a metaphor for a retention mechanic, like the idea of keeping a flame lit. And again, if you've, I think we've established the flame as, you know, for a lot of users as sort of their understanding of a streak, which is great. But there's a lot of people, you know, in different cultural context and different, you know, stages of life where the idea of like keeping a flame lit to show your commitment to something makes less sense. We did some UXR in India many years ago. And this was something that just like did not resonate at all there, which was, which was a really interesting learning. And that's something it's like, again, depending upon what your user base is, like the more global UXR you can do to understand how users are actually understanding and experience your feature, the better because you just, again, encounter insights like this. And so even our screen design, you know, we used to have a flame. It was just, it was mostly this flame that would like light up every day. But again, it was like an indication of a metaphor for a mechanic. And when we redesigned it, we did this, Kurt, our one of our, one of our.

animators did this awesome odometer animation where it's like your number would tick every day. It kind of like looked good. But from a product perspective, it was cool is we actually focused the design on the screen to show your number going up. And then it would say, you know, like seven day streak, eight day streak. And I think that as you're thinking about designing around a streak, don't get too bought up, you know, or caught up into like what is this, you know, like the beautiful story that you're trying to tell at the expense. of it being a really comprehensible feature. And so as you're thinking about product design,

making that product design a clear distillation of this is what we're actually tracking, you know, form should follow function here, you know, was a learning for us. And you'll see that now in a lot of places where we're showing streak, we're really leading with the number, not necessarily the flame.

That's a theme that I'm hearing again. And again, is clarity. Don't obsess with making it too thought like clever and, You don't ever think it just like clarity has a big impact. Clarity also doesn't have to come at the expense of delight. And this is something where, you know, you hit a milestone and duo gets, you know, it becomes, we call him a Phoenix duo and he becomes awesome and, you know, lights on fire.

And I think there are things that you can do to still make the experience really exciting and delightful and celebratory. And I would not lose that. But just don't do it at the expense. And I think it's also about figuring out for what, you know, you can get away with doing more of this for users who are deeper into their streak experience than users who are starting where it's like your goal for the one day streak users just to make sure do they understand how this feature works. I mean, even something again, just like another

random experiment at the bottom of the streak screen, we have a calendar. And over the years, it just looks more and more calendar like. And that is simply because we find that the more we make it look like a calendar, days on top, you know, little circles, the check. Like, the more we make it look like calendar, the more that people realize, hey, this is a day, a daily mechanic. And so think about the screen holistically, but every single thing that you're doing on the screen, how can you use it to communicate? What is the point of this feature? How does it work? This episode is brought to you by Coda. I use Coda every day to coordinate my podcasting and newsletter workflows. From collecting questions for guests to storing all my research,

to managing my newsletter content calendar, Coda is my go-to app and has been for years. Coda combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help me get more done. And Cota can help your team to stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycle in just one location, set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders, map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas. You can also access hundreds of pressure-tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making frameworks. See for yourself why companies like DoorDash, Figma, and Qualtranexial. run on Kota. Take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups.

Head over to coda.io slash Lenny and sign up to get six free months of the team plan. That's coda.coma.com slash Lenny to sign up and get six months of the team plan. Cota.coma.com slash Lenny. I imagine one of the biggest wins was just giving people flexibility along the journey, like streak freezes and all these things. Is that a big vein of opportunity discovery? It is, it is great. Actually, I'm going to show you the one of the most thoughtful gifts that anybody has ever given to me. This is our duolingo serenity, our streak serenity prayer. My co-lead, Antonio. It's like knitted, right? It's like, for me. It's amazing. And so it says, Luis, grant me the serenity to accept the flexibility I need, the courage to reach perfection when I can and the wisdom to celebrate regardless. And that actually is like kind of our strategy with the streak. I love the show and tell, by the way. That was great. Yeah, I will, well, I guess for, for. You know, podcast listeners will have to, you know, get an image somewhere. This idea of like flexibility versus perfection and then regardless celebration is core to how we think about the street.

Because, you know, I think for the streak for us, it's very much a bend not break. You know, if you're going to miss a day, I'd rather you come back, you know, having not, you know, having missed that day to an intact streak. But if you don't have to miss a day, I'd much rather you don't. I'd much rather you come back and use the app every day. So that thing on flexibility, though, that's almost certainly been the biggest, you know, from a mechanic perspective, the biggest DAU driver. You know, one of the earliest experiments we ran was going from, you used to only be able to have one streak freeze, and then we let you have either two or three. So we tested two different arms. It was an, again, another huge DAU win.

This actually is funny. It was something that this is, again, kind of a callback to that growth model post from Jorge. It actually was really bad for Kerr, because we were. basically saying, hey, you can take a day off, you know, and that's okay. But it was really good for, this is going to be like Alphabet Soup, IWR, an active weekly active user return rate. So basically users who had taken a day off, we were getting them to come back more at higher rates. And so it made up for our losses and Kerr. But effectively what this meant is that, you know, why two streak freezes work better than one was, I don't know, sometimes people just need a little more flexibility than one day.

But one of the, again, the really interesting inside of this experiment was that three streak freezes was actually no better than two streak freezes. And there were two competing things here. And I think this is important if you're going to build a streak, you know, to figure out what your flexibility mechanic is. We are getting more users to return after longer times away to an intact, you know, to an intact streak. But if you start taking three days off from any habit, it's just going to be less likely that you return even four days later. And so we had these competing things where users might more users might be returning to a street, but a lot of users were also just not coming back. We're training them to, you know, take more time off. So that flexibility, what's the right amount of, I mean, we've, again, this is another area. We've run hundreds of experiments on what is the right number of flexibility. What is the right amount of flexibility? And we, we are constantly surprised here. We don't, I still don't have the answer for at every point in your street journey, how much flexibility you need. One thing that I can say with certainty, though, is give more flexibility. when a user is starting their streak.

Again, one of our biggest streak freeze experiment wins, I feel like I'm constantly saying this, one of our biggest wins, but they all were really, really big. One of our biggest streak freeze wins was when you start a new streak, we'd give you two streak freezes. And again, it's so funny to think back, it's like, how are we not doing this to begin with?

But at the time, the streak freeze was kind of an overly gamified mechanic. You had to buy them with gems. That's our in-app currency, you know, because we wanted the whole idea of, you know, this to feel like you, like it was really, you know, something you earned that, you know, there was a little bit of pain to getting that streak freeze. And so we tested though, what if we just give users when they start off their streak two streak freezes? And holy smokes to that win. And it's sort of obvious now, you know, in retrospect, but if you have a one or a two

or a three day streak, it's really easy just to let it die and restart. You know, again, you need to get to seven days. What we've seen in the data for it to really lock in. And so, giving users more flexibility so that it's harder to lose their streak initially. And then conversely, and this is what we keep learning, eventually once people get on long streaks, you kind of don't want to give them as much flexibility. You know, because there's a lot of times where,

yeah, users don't, and I'm like this. I've got like a 400-day streak. Note that that is a lot less time than I've been at Duolingo. I have lost and restarted streaks a lot of times at my time at Duolingo. But you start getting on long streaks, And you really care about this feature. You really care about your streak. And most people, as long as you're not like backpacking through, I don't know, you know, the backcountry of Utah, you know, you'll be in a place where you can get service.

And so figuring out where is the user, you know, who is the user that actually could use Duolingo and not conditioning them to start taking days off that they didn't otherwise need to do is is important to figure out sort of where that line is for, for, for, your feature. This is fascinating. You can also buy a streak, right? Like with money. That's a feature, right? Yeah, you can, it's funny. This is, this is also something that we buy a streak fix or freeze, sorry, not a Yeah, so you can buy a streak freeze. And the way it works is you can buy gems and then you can use those gems to buy a streak. And this is something we wrestle with. We're actively working on an experiment right now that's having a small hit revenue, but it's a really nice win for retention. And I think it's actually worth thinking about from day one as you're building. a streak, do you see this more as a modernization feature? And do you see this more as a retention

feature? What's the role of monetization in this? What's the role of retention? And I think for us, it started out much more organically. And so we have a lot of modernization hooks that, again, as the retention PM, I would love to get rid of. But again, it's sort of part of how the streak works right now. And so we always have this tension of, hey, if we start to make it harder to buy streak freezes, then fewer people buy them, you know, buy gems to buy them. And so there's this more convoluted, you know, series of impacts that happen. Yeah. I love that.

I love that people wanting to buy streak freeze is like the ultimate sign of how much streaks matter. Yeah. It's streak freeze is the other big one that we've, that we've recently demonitized or introduced a free option for is getting back a lost streak. So you used to lose the streak. We had a feature in the day, you know, back in the day called streak repair. We'd give you your streak back.

you had to pay gems. But what we found out worked way better was a feature called Earnback. And this is basically where you would have to do a certain number of lessons. As long as you came back within a window soon after losing your streak, do a few lessons and we just give you your streak back. And it was such a retention winner. And again, what we thought about was it feels like you've earned it so much more when you've done, like you deserve to have your streak back.

We haven't cheapen the streak because you've done something. thing. And in this sense, this idea of cheapening the streak is something like from a philosophical philosophy of the streak. From a philosophical level, we wrestle with all the time of, cool, we're giving out more streak freezes. At what point do we cross the line and users start to realize their streak means nothing? Now, everything that we've seen, users are totally cool with using streak freezes and still thinking about the streak is this meaningful thing. But my co-lead Antonio who made that awesome cross-stitch for me, she is sort of the keeper for us of the sanctity of the streak. And a lot of times as we, and I think this is really important to have as you're

thinking about building your streak, you can almost always get engagement wins up to a certain point by just cheapening the streak, making it easier to extend, letting users have more flexibility. But you kind of got to hold the line at some point. It's not clear where that line is. And once you, like, you talk about one way doors or two way doors, there's a point where you go too far and it's a one way door. And all of a sudden, those users, those nine million users on one year streaks don't care about their streak anymore. And that is, I don't know, again, retention PM perspective, that'd be an extinction level event for us. I don't want all of these users to stop caring about their streak. And so to have somebody who is invested in the sanctity of the streak,

and, you know, for us it's Antonia and, and Luis, he's very good about this, is really important just so you make sure you don't go too far. That's an awesome insight. So to protect, and personal notifications, I think, are another example. This in general for companies, like how much is too much, because everyone's just like, let's just send another push. It's fine. Just one more. And so your solution to that is a person is like the keeper and the gate, almost the gatekeeper, plus the founder of how far is too far. That it's, yeah, it's good if you can, if you can have that. I think push notifications are also easier because, you know, there's a lot of things you can do around. All right, we'll set a budget cap for how many notifications will send, you know, you can,

just like a create a policy. Yeah, policies. But I think with a lot of things, things, at least for the streak, it's harder to create policies for in the same way. A lot of it has to be done based on feel. And so you kind of just got to use your best judgment at times. Sweet. Okay. Any other maybe like one or two more lessons from this journey of what streaks has become today? I mean, you mentioned notifications. I've mentioned this a few times. It's funny. You tend to think of exactly as we say, you can just always send another notification. It's going to be some win. And at some point, you know, it'll be a bad experience, but it's tough to see that. There's actually a notification.

that we, so we send two notifications relating to your core streak each day. The first is a practice reminder. We send it, and this is actually an interesting insight, 23 and a half hours after you practice the day before. Whoa. That is a lot. 23 and a half. Okay. So basically, if you practice at noon

today, we'll send to you at 1130 a.m. tomorrow. And we have done. Because it's like assuming they were free in that time the day before, maybe they'll be free the same time. And we actually moved, we used to let users set this practice reminder time and, you know, our thinking was, cool, you're going to say 7 p.m. That's when I really want to extend my streak each day. And then you know what? I said this

is somebody with two kids. Life gets in the way. Life always gets in the way. And when you think you're going to practice will change, your life will change, whatever. And what we realize is the best indicator of when you should practice was when did you practice the day before. We could almost certainly get more detailed. We have tried a bunch of ways to have much more complex logic. And what always wins is 23 and a half hours. So, revealed behavior versus... Yeah, exactly. So again, we send this practice reminder 23 and a half hours later.

The other thing that we'll do, though, is we'll send it what we call a streak saver. And this is at 10 o'clock at night, if you have not extended your streak, we'll send you a message saying, hey, you know, like, it's your last chance. This is it if you don't extend your streak. And you would think that, like, that's kind of spammy. That's kind of annoying to get a notification from an app at, at, at, at, 10 p.m. But what we found is because people care about their streak. Their streak is this good thing that they attach positive emotions to that they don't really want to lose. That notification

reminding them, hey, come back and like people see this by and large as a positive notification and on a negative notification. Obviously, it serves our purposes well of getting users to come back and not lose their streaks. But again, I think if you can think about your notification strategy related to what is the feature that it's tied to how to users perceive that. You can almost certainly get away with more, but you know, you could be thoughtful about notification load and when to send notifications. And again, for us, this like late night message that's also highly impactful, super good, you know, is actually something that could be perceived as spammy, but a lot of our users really do. Somebody who it's often late at night and I work here and I'm like, oh, forgot to do my, you know,

I was thinking about duolingo all day. You know, here it is 1115 and I saw it done at that message is. really powerful. Yeah, it has saved me many times. I totally know that message. And I love that it's like a late night message from an app. Very rarely do you actually are happy about that. And I love that this actually is a good example. It's really, it's really funny all of the stories that you hear about people extending their street. You know, if you look around a duolingo party, you know, where it's like 11, 30, 1145, all the duolingo employees that are like doing their lesson at the last minute. You always see these like pictures of people. people in the club doing, or like at a concert doing, do a lingo. And yeah, because it's like,

otherwise, that you're going to use a streak freezer. God forbid, you'll lose your streak. That's so funny. Okay. Anything else? And if there's like more than one more, definitely share. But any other really interesting lessons or wrong turns or insights. You know, I talked about streak freezes. And we've done a lot with streak freeze. But I think if you're going to make flexibility a thing, it's probably also useful thinking about how do you celebrate perfection. And so we have a feature that we have, it is the simplest thing in the world. It's called perfect streak. And it's just if you don't use the street freeze for a few days, we make your streak look gold and we make your little progress bar on the

calendar, just look a little bit nicer. There's no reward for doing it. You don't get anything other than this nice little indication. And it is awesome. It is, it is a simple feature. It is ultra not complex. And it is really powerful. Not only for getting users to, you know, as a bit of a reward that be, hey, know, get to seven days, you know, without using a streak freeze and, you know, your streak becomes perfect. But it's also a really nice indication of users who aren't using streak freezes. Here is the thing that if you, you know, if you don't use a streak freeze, which again, candidly, I would love for you never to use a streak freeze. If you don't use a streak freeze, your streak will stay, you know, perfect. It's funny, we actually just, you know, we're constantly,

you know, responding to bug reports about the streak, you know, it is, I swear to God, we, we have that, we have the best infrastructure around this feature because it is so important. We had an employee who lost her like a four-month perfect streak. And it was a big deal for her because she, you know, because she like did her a lesson as she was crossing international date line. There was like a bunch of stuff going on that was like it was just kind of weird in our back end. But like people start to care about perfection as much as they do their streak. And you know, for that person, it was, it was a big deal when they lost their perfect streak. And so, you know, this is just an example of, like, if you're going to go after flexibility, which is good,

finding a way to pull users back into perfection is a really important counterweight to have. What I'm imagining is you guys need like an Amazon style chat bot that just gives you the streak back. It's just like, okay, here you go. We have very much. So we have if people lose their streak, you know, there's ways to get in contact with us.

But we've actually thought about that where it's like, okay, we should just like build a self-service feature. And if we think that your excuse is good enough, whatever, we'll just. Yeah, yeah. Because again, it's for us, I'd even ship it back. I'd much rather you be on, you know, beyond a streak than, you know,

have lost it particularly if it. Right. But it also can't feel that easy. I love this. I also love this point about just the power of the animation and user experience having impact. That's really interesting. Is that something you find often just like,

like celebrating and making it feel really amazing without like copy or, you know, or like any feature is just like, holy, you're awesome. This is another thing where it's like, when users care about the feature using not only animation, haptics, sound effects, using, and it's funny, we don't have sound effects on the streak.

There's probably something we'll look at in the not too distant future, but like haptics are like something we have done a lot of testing on. Like the phone vibrating. Yeah, exactly. Your phone, you know, like there being a really cool haptic pattern as you extend your streak, all of this stuff wins. And it's cool because I think it wins. There's a few reasons.

One of it just makes you feel good, right? You know, you get some cool moment in your streak and we celebrate you. We celebrate you in this visual way. And your phone's buzz and it just like feels awesome. The other thing it does is it like causes you to pause on that screen. And I think there's this desire as you think through a lot of, you know, as PM's think through like, oh, how can I get users to do this funnel as painlessly as possible? You know, I talked about good infurgeonerily.

There's a lot of times where I don't, I want you to stop. I want you to stop and like land on this screen. You got to be careful not to do this for too many screens, right? But like, but the one big ones, sometimes. I just want you to pause there and enjoy the moment. Because if I can get you to enjoy the moment more, you're going to care more about your streak and you're going to be coming back tomorrow. And so animations that are cool and that cause you to like really soak it in,

haptics, you know, that feel good. All of that comes together to make you really focus on that moment. All of that just gets users more connected to their streak. So animation in the right times works well. And it's something we've had when quite a lot. Who designs the haptic stuff? Is there like a haptic designer? For the longest time, it would be a product designer.

Or it initially started as like the engineer would be like, all right, you know, would cobble together haptics based on what they felt good. Then it became a product design role where they would kind of use their best judgment. We actually just recently required an animation studio Hobbs in Detroit. And now they are the sort of keepers of, you know, they do a lot of motion design work, haptics very close to that. And so they do a lot of that. I do remember trying to hire for a while a haptics, like, contractor, like, haptics design.

And it was the saddest hiring I've ever done because it was just like, I don't know, like, it was such a specific, like, I don't know, I just went through a lot of people who, you know, it's just a really tricky space of like kind of sound effects, kind of motion design, sort of technical. Yeah. Such a unique role. Very unique specific skill set. Right. And there's very few apps that really need this deeply. So you're almost creating this person. Yeah.

That is fascinating. I don't want, I'm going to, that's like a whole podcast on its own. By the way, I was going to say as you're talking about this, I love that it's a win to celebrate people that don't lose their streak. Like you introduce this way to make it flexible and that's a big win. And then you go the opposite direction of if you don't use this feature, you also feel even better. Well, and it's funny, you talked about the danger of feature bloat. We sort of talked about the danger of feature bloat.

This is actually something I'm constantly thinking about with this. Like we have the streak, but then we also have the perfect streak. And we can count how many, we count how many weeks you've had a perfect streak. Well, all of a sudden, we have two streak numbers that are kind of competing with each other. It's funny, we actually don't introduce the concept of a perfect streak until after you've hit seven days. And some of this is just because the cognitive load of additional streak features. A lot of our like cooler streak features, you got to get on a long enough streak. And not to say we haven't tested it because we have, because we test everything, introducing these features earlier.

but what we've found is that pretty universally they lose when we introduce too many things, too many concepts to users too early in the experience. It's just hard for them to manage. Okay, sweet. I know that we can go down this track for hours and hours. There's endless learnings about all the things you all have done along the journey. I'm going to shift to talking about how your team operates. So there's a lot of threads you touch on of just how a team can do this so well. Ship 600 experiments, as you said, continue to find opportunity. What are some maybe lessons or advice you'd have for folks that are like, oh, wow, I want to work more like this from your team's experience. How to use your team to operate that folks can learn.

Yeah, maybe just a little bit of context. We're duolingo cares a lot about metric. So most of our teams are metric based teams. So we do the most work with streak. But, you know, the metric, what we really care about at the end of the day is Kerr. And and DAUs because we see that DAUs hit Kerr. And so when you can be really laser focused on my goal, each quarter is to make this metric go up, I think it's much easier to make sure that you're working on the highest ROI thing. I think when you think more about like,

oh, I want to make this feature better, I think it's easier to get lost in what better means and how you think about better. And so I do think that like having a really strong degree of focus, you know, as a team on, you know, what is the metric that I'm caring about and how is that directing my efforts is? Versus feature-oriented.

So basically your teams are structured around a metric slash a goal-slash-outcome versus we own this feature. So retention owns streak, I guess, but that's only because we've seen streak drive curve better than any feature. But we are not, I mean, we have this, you know, IAP hook with our streak-freeze purchases. There are other teams that work on, you know, that can and have worked on the streak. because it's not ours to say, no, no, we do all the iterations here. We just know that it drives our metric better in the same way that, like, leaderboards, you know, we have a team that focuses on how much time you spend.

We want users to spend more time on Duolingo, so they're learning more. Leaderboards is the best vector for doing it. So that team does a lot of leaderboards work. But every now and then, I have an idea that I think will be highly retentive, and I will go in and I will pitch to them, and then we'll do some change to the leaderboard to make it more retentive. And so, but I do think having that clear metric of we're trying to drive Kerr, not we're trying to just make this feature better, helps at least make sure, you know,

give the team clear marching orders and that focus, I think is really good for prioritizing backlog. Cool. This is a really important point. This is the same way Airbnb worked when I worked there for a long time is it's here's a goal that we want your team to be responsible for. You can work on any product you need to hit this goal. As you said, often like various products are most connected to what you're doing.

But what you're describing is like, even though a team's, kind of like I imagine you own it from a bug perspective and you kind of like are the shepherd of this part of the feature because it hits your goal helps your girl most but any other team can come in and be like, hey Jackson, we need to work on some streak stuff to help with learning. You're like, go for it. Does that just a tangent there? Do they like work really closely with your team if they want to do some work in the code? Is it like how does that work? Yeah. If if you're, again, this is where I say there's soft ownership, we're not against teams doing things to the streak, but if we're going to do something given, you know, we probably

have multiple quarters worth of a roadmap around the street. I say probably we do. Multiple quarters of roadmap for what we can do to this streak. If other teams want to come and mess with it, okay, we got to just figure out how is that going to work with, you know, what our plans for the streak were, how do we make sure a lot of times when teams are coming in thinking, hey, let's do this to the streak. They're like in context that we might have. And so there's as much of like a much simpler version of what we're doing now, a bit of a knowledge sharing of saying, all right, well, this is what we think about the streak. This is what we've soon work, hasn't worked. How does that influence some of the hypothesis that you have?

And so I think getting that really, making sure the juice is worth the squeeze. Good old fashioned product management work right there. Cool. What else is interesting about how you all operate and how you all work to achieve this sort of success? Again, my team lead runs is, Antonio runs like the most, you know, really process. If you're going to run this mini experience, you have to be really process oriented and really thoughtful about which experiments am I going to run when. How is that going to set up? the next one. We, you know, there's, there's heavy Jira automation. I think sometimes the Atlassian suite makes my eyes bleed. But like, there's a lot of times where that degree of process helps

the team unblock engineers and make them move really fast. And so making sure that you have really good process around how are you going to run so many experiments. It's, you know, it's, it's worth investing in. Can you follow that threat actually? Just what do you, when you say that, what does that look like? What are some elements of that process to make this work efficiently. All the way down to really detailed roadmaps around, all right, we're running. This experiment is based on the results of this experiment or might, you know, hook into an element of this feature. How do we make sure that we're lining up implementation on this so that as soon as this thing runs and we're ready to go, we can start rolling out the next one. You know, I hate features

just sitting around and us not, again, continuing that thread. So it's not just thinking about what's our engineering bandwidth, but also what's the design bandwidth to make sure that we have. the next iteration of this feature, ready to go. You know, we're planning months out as we think about these feature iterations, even small ones, you know, feature iterations because, again, you just, you lose, when you lose cycles, you know, not pushing on a feature, it's just sort of lost opportunity. And so everything from, you know, being thoughtful about engineering roadmaps to design roadmaps to product roadmaps, all of that needs to come together in a system.

So essentially mapping dependencies across function. and you're saying in Jira, you can do this? You can do a lot of it in Jira. There is a non-zero amount of Google Docs that we have that sometimes does things a little bit. I don't know. Sometimes it just looks a little bit nicer. It's a little bit more flexible. But Jira is our, it is where the mother load of process is.

Great. Okay. What else? Like another thing that I'll just say is like, we really resist the urge to do the big V1. And I think this is, you know, I shared the, the street goal example where a lot of times when we're exploring something, we will say, okay, well, like, that's cool. How do we strip away a bunch of stuff and figure out what our core hypothesis is? And then just ship that thing first as a V1. Because it's easy, and I've found

this time and time again, it's easy to add things to features that make them win. Like, I've worked in retention and engagement long enough. I can like add, I know enough like things to pull and bells to add and whistles and to make something win. But, you know, there's a lot of times where it's like, cool, well, they don't want because all the whistles you add in, not because of what your core hypothesis was. And a lot of times if you can just really simplify what the feature is, it's also much easier to ship. It's easier to design. You're not designing for a whole system. You're designing for, you know, something, something much simpler. And so getting everybody to think that way ends up allows us to end up shipping faster, shipping simpler, you know, designing faster, getting

faster approval, getting insight, and then doing what I talked about with Street Goal, being able to run iteration after iteration after iteration, add these things iteratively. And then, you not only by doing this or you able to move faster, but you get confidence at each step of the way that, hey, my series of hypotheses, you know, is actually borne out. Or if it's not, cool, then we're going to drop that part of the feature and then just ship what actually matters. If I can try to summarize kind of the broad lesson so far that I'm hearing, and maybe you would have shared this, but I'm just thinking like if I were to try to design a company to operate the way you all operate, you essentially map all the levers that drive the business. So you have kind of this mapping of all the metrics that drive up to growth and daily active users.

you Kerr ended up being the biggest specific metric to move to drive growth long term. So there's like imagining a tree of all the opportunities you could work on. You found like this is what is most connected to our growth long term. You basically just start mining. I don't know if mining is the right metaphor, but just like looking for things that move that specific metric. You just like look and poke and explore. And then once you find one, you just go real deep on trying a lot of different. You can come up with a hypothesis and a strategy of here is how we think we can do this and how we can move this.

And then you just try a bunch of stuff. There's also this element of the rest of development quote. There's always money in the banana stand comes to mind where it's just like keep working on. See, there's more. There's going to be more opportunity. When I joined Duolingo, the PM that I took over for Anton, who used to lead the retention team, I remember saying, dude, the streak, like, It just counts up. You guys have been tested on for years.

How much more work can we do on the streak? And he was like, Jackson, you child. He didn't say exactly this, but this is how I felt it. Like, Jackson, you child, there is, we're not even 30% of the way optimized. And four years later, I say that with like such conviction, we are so far away from, I mean, we've made a ton of strides, but we are still so far away. And every quarter where we ship a ton of, you know, wins and, you know, improvements to the streak, it just continues to prove to me that, like, there is.

so much more to be done. So I think your framing of it is, and I would say there's a lot of thought that goes into, you know, again, you know, I talk about the strength of the hypothesis that you have, you know, you have to have as you start to build out larger, you know, future strategy. I do think it's really important to not just do a bunch of random stuff, but do it with intent, you know, with a goal in mind. Otherwise, you do end up in these local, you know, local maximas. But yeah, I mean, there's still a bunch of stuff that we haven't tried that, you know, I think we have high confidence and, you know, working out. And so we'll, we'll keep doing that. Are there any other say lasting lessons from this journey that if somewhere to try to operate this way, build

streaks into their product, anything you'd recommend? Yeah, I really do think it starts with, you know, streaks are an engagement hack. You know, you can you can make your app more retentive. I'm almost positive. Almost every app out there can make it more. more attentive. It is loss aversion. That is, you know, again, armchair, psychologist Jackson. Like, it's just a human thing that works on humans. But if your app is not something that users want to use every day or whatever, you know, cadence you want your app to be, you know, to work on, it's going to be, you're only going to get so much from that streak. And honestly, it's probably going to distract you from what really should matter, which is making your app something that

people want to use every day. And so if you start focusing on the streak, but you haven't made that a enjoyable experience, you're just going to waste a lot of time, honestly. And so I think making sure that you have your core loop of your app figured out that it is giving value to users is something that they want to come back to every day. That really sets the stage for something to layer a streak on. So resist the temptation if you haven't, you know, if you don't think you've reached that point to go too hard down the, you know, the path of streak. That's a really good point. Just like, A streak is not going to solve your problems if people don't actually care about the core value you're providing. No, and honestly, it'll probably cause more problems if what you end up focusing on is how do I make the street highly engaging, but your app is on, I mean, you're just, you're, you're wasting time that could otherwise be, you know, better spent on solving more, more critical problems.

So that's, that's one learning. You know, the other thing that I'll say is, and we met with one of our board members, Bing, Bing Gordon a few weeks or a few months. go, rather. And he had this comment where he was just like, the reason why users care about your streak so much is because you care about your streak so much, you being Duolingo. Like, the reason why users care about our streak so much, because Duolingo cares about the streak so much. We're like, what do you mean? Well, he's like, well, after every session, you see a big streak screen and it's animated cooler than almost any other screen in the app. And then sometimes you see some other screens and there's all these other feet. Like, you don't let a user forget it. You talk about them and messages. And

and so I think it's worth thinking about, look, if you're going to build a streak and then you're going to second it off into the corner of your app, you know, where users aren't going to see it, like, they're probably not going to care about it as much. And which might be fine because there might be other lovers that you think are more important to pull on. But there's a reason why, you know, we focus as much on the streak, you know, as we do. And that's because we want it to be top of mind for users. And it's not by accident done that users start to care about. And so I think just as you're thinking about building the streak, making sure that you're giving it the visibility it deserves if you want it to have the kind of impact the dualingo has.

You know, it's sort of an important hierarchy principle to think about as you design things. That's such a good point. Like you look for cues to the app of tell me what I should pay attention to. What's important? If you're just like fire explosions, you've made a streak. Oh, maybe I should pay attention to this feature. And then the push notifications obviously encourage you there too. Anything else along those lines?

Maybe final thing is, look, we ran so many times. on our dualingo streak to figure out what worked. I mean, we have a philosophy of dualingo have tested first. You know, we are a lot of times willing to test things. I really think that if you're going to try to introduce a streak or you want to improve on the streak you have, like, don't get too caught up in the philosophy of everything. I mean, make sure your hypotheses feel like they're good. But my recommendation is just try things.

And this is, again, you said it earlier. It's like, this is most human psychology as anything. And as soon as that becomes the case, like, you kind of just got to understand what users respond to. And the easiest way to do that is to stop spending time, you know, batting around ideas in a conference room and just try some stuff. So huge recommendation to like, if you're going to invest in a streak, try and figure out what works through testing with users rather than trying to get it perfect on the first try. Say someone's listening and they're like, should we do streak? because it's worth doing. What's your take on just like the chances

that a streak feature would be helpful to another consumer? I am well known for saying in the company that I think every streak, every team, every app could benefit from a streak. Now, how you implement it is very different. And I think you got to like,

what is your user's use case? Like, if they're going to come use, I don't know, tax software. Okay, you know, not that I say this, tax software to be a hard one, but maybe it's all about, you know, you need users to come back every day during the tax season or how many times, I don't know, you know, now that I say this out loud.

Times you upload your, your bank forms. Yeah, that is a hard use case. But the vast majority of companies, I think, have a good idea of like, all right, here is my ideal use case. I want users to come here three times a month. That would be ideal, you know, or four times a month. You can build a streak to work. I mean, Peloton has weekly streaks because the idea of doing a Peloton, you know, a workout. every single day is hard for a lot of,

it was hard for this user during COVID. You know, it's just like every now and then you get on the Peloton. That was great. But the idea of a weekly streak was something that I could keep up. And so I think figure out what your usage pattern is, is a user and then build your streak around it. But, you know, as long as you're not, you know, like a release, again, the text example was probably a good

counterfactual, but as long as you have some degree of frequency in your, in your use, I think almost anything can have a, Can have a streak. So dueling goes, again, a $14 billion company. This feature, possibly the most contributing factor other than the core product to that level of success and market cap. And it's hard to imagine another just feature of a product that has had this much impact on on growth and revenue and building this sort of business. So I love that we spent this much time on it, the motherload, the mother load of advice and insights. So thank you again. Of course. Very fun.

With that, we reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? I'm ready. First question. What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people? All right. I'll start with a guide to Midwest conversation. So I'm based in Kansas City. I'm a proud Midwesterner. And us Midwesterners talk in a certain way. I think you hear about Minnesota nice. But we tend not to say what we mean. And it is a very funny primer into what we're and Westerners actually mean when they say what they say.

So highly recommend reading that. I like that they give that to people. Just like, here's what I might be telling you, which you may not read. My wife is German, and I gave it to her. I can see German being the opposite of that. Very different. Another book, this is a good one. Fate is the Hunters.

This is a really cool book. It's a memoir of one of the early commercial airline pilots. And it is wild to hear the stories about, what flying was back in the day. I'm former management consultant. I flew every week for almost six years. And I never once had to worry about am I going to make it to the other end of this flight alive. That was not the case back then. And so some of the stories about what it used to be like to be a pilot on some of these planes before modern aviation technology is fascinating. It makes you really appreciate what we have. It feels good to read a book like that being a software

PM or engineer or whatever, like how different that life is. Hardware is hard. It's ridiculous. Oh, man. It's not haptic design. Okay, next, unless there's any other books you're going to share. Okay, great. What's a favorite recent movie or TV show?

You really enjoyed. So I have two kids. I watch a lot of Bluey. It's really good. I swear, it brings me no shortage of joy. But adult show that I heard or show not meant for four-year-olds that I have watched. I just finished the latest season of Emily and Paris. Man, wonderful.

I realize it's not the highest brow of television, but just like beautiful people and beautiful cities solving problems that are not earth shattering. Sometimes it is nice to just tune out. Also, I'm learning French undoilingo. Slight plug for the app, I can understand a lot of the French that is being spoken. And there is no better joy than having invested as much time

as I have in French and actually being able to use it. So, huge fan of Emily. That is so funny. What a fun Venn diagram of interests. My mother-in-law loves Emily in Paris. I saw someone tweeting about, like, what visa are she on? How is she still in Paris? Yeah, you bet's just not ask questions.

There's a lot of questions for this show that are better left. Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really like? Other than doing it? Last week, I went to Home Depot, and I bought a new ladder. And ladder innovations, you don't think, you know, of often. But you can make one of the legs go a little bit further than the other leg. And as somebody like myself who has a house that is built on a slight slope, every time I go up on my ladder, I take my life in my hands.

But with this ladder, I'm always even, I cleaned my gutters twice last week, just because of how awesome this ladder has, how much this ladder has changed my life. So ladder innovation, I don't think it gets talked enough about. And so I'm happy to give it the spotlight it deserves. I appreciate you doing that. It's the first ladder recommendation we've had on the podcast. Two more questions. You have a favorite life motto that you really find useful in worker in life,

if they share with folks. This probably will not be much of a surprise based on how I've talked about our willingness to test things, but you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. I'm a big fan of just trying things, even if your possibility of success is not 100, because you learn a lot along the way. Final question.

Do you have any fun traditions at Duolingo amongst either the PM team or the company in general that might be delightful to share? We have way too many traditions. to count. I will share the weird tradition that we do at every retention stand up. And this started during the pandemic. We obviously used to stand up in person. And then when we went remote, we did this thing where whoever's the last person to go would count down three, two, one. And then we'd all try to clap at the same time, which was kind of fun and dorky,

but we fell in love with it. And four years later, we're still doing it. Recently, we've added, we all say yaha in unison afterwards I can't tell you why but trying to synchronize a clap via Zoom and then all shouting

yaha I did this in a phone booth the other day and after I came out someone told me you know that those aren't as soundproof as you think but you know when you get a good opportunity

to give a yeha you kind of can't pass up on it so I love these little things like they're so you know they sound so minor but they're such important elements of team called and tradition and so important for PMs to find ways to just have fun and do something ridiculous.

I will say it took a while to get people behind shouting yaha. But now that we have people doing it, you can't take it away from the day. We all love it. Oh man. I called our all hands for a while, y'all hands. Feel free to steal that. You get it. You get it, Lenny. Yeah. I get it. Jackson, this is incredible. I feel like people are going to listen to this with notebooks and just like, okay, here. Here's a bunch of ideas we should try with whatever we're working on, whether it's streaks or not. Thank you so much for being here. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more, learn more about Duolingo. I know you're hiring product managers, so share more there. And finally, how can listeners be useful to you?

Yes. You can find me on LinkedIn. That is where most of my online social media is. So Jackson, Shuttlerth. And then how people can be useful to me. Yes, as you said, we are hiring. We're actually hiring for my team. Are you interested in thinking about streaks as much as we do? You know, we might be the right home for you. So please, you know, you can plan our website. We're also hiring for a number of other product management roles in there all as as as thrilling as this work is. And then, you know, I'm always interested about how other companies have implemented streaks and what they've learned. And so what I'd say is if you're a company who's implemented a streak, maybe in a different way that Duolingo has

or you've found a whole ton of success and another vector, another element of the feature that we didn't talk about today. I would love to know more. I used to catalog basically every streak I found out there. And as it's become more of a popular feature, it's just been hard to keep up on. So, you know, if you have interesting streak insights

to send my way, I would love to hear them. I love that, the collection of all the best ways of doing streaks. Jackson, I just want to say, congrats to your team and you for having so much impact. This is like the dream of a lot of PMs and teams is to see this much impact and continue to ship wins. And so congrats. Nice work. Thank you very much. And with that, Jackson, thanks so much for being here. Yeah, thank you, Lennie. This was a lot of fun. Same. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenniespodcast.com. See you in the next episode.