Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - Building Wiz: the fastest-growing startup in history | Raaz Herzberg (CMO and VP Product Strategy)

Episode Date: November 17, 2024

Raaz Herzberg is the chief marketing officer and VP of product strategy at Wiz. Wiz hit $100 million ARR within 18 months (the fastest growth in startup history) and, five years in, is generating over $500 million ARR. It also serves over 45% of the Fortune 100. Raaz was one of the first five employees at Wiz, joining as the first product manager, and helped the team pivot to what may be the most intense PMF in history. Before Wiz, Raaz led security products at Microsoft, including Azure Sentinel. In our conversation, we discuss:• How Wiz pivoted from their initial idea and found deep product-market fit• What Raaz learned about listening to customers• Why she moved from product to marketing, despite no prior experience• How she thinks differently as a marketer with a product background• Lessons learned from scaling a hypergrowth startup like Wiz• Much more—Brought to you by:• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs• Rippling—Automate HR, IT, and finance so you can scale faster• Cloudinary—The foundational technology for all images and video on the internet—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-wiz-raaz-herzberg—Where to find Raaz Herzberg:• X: https://x.com/raazherzberg• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raazh—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Raaz’s background(02:54) Early challenges and Wiz’s essential pivot(06:41) Finding product-market fit(11:31) Lessons from early customer interactions(14:54) The power in speaking up when you don’t understand something(17:46) How Wiz pivoted from their initial idea(23:52) Marketing and leadership insights(34:12) The challenges of being a marketing leader(28:05) Following the “heat” in your organization(30:22) How Raaz found success as CMO(34:01) Common CMO mistakes(36:23) Creating noise and standing out(40:28) Embracing failure and taking risks(44:53) The importance of clear communication(48:32) The “dummy” explanation(51:00) Building trust and company culture(53:45) Contrarian corner(56:34) Lightning round—Referenced:• Wiz: https://www.wiz.io/• An inside look at Deel’s unprecedented growth | Meltem Kuran Berkowitz (Head of Growth): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-deels-unprecedented• Velocity over everything: How Ramp became the fastest-growing SaaS startup of all time | Geoff Charles (VP of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/velocity-over-everything-how-ramp• Assaf Rappaport on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/assafrappaport/• How LinkedIn became interesting: The inside story | Tomer Cohen (CPO at LinkedIn): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linkedin-became-interesting-tomer-cohen• Shardul Shah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shardul-shah-3589062/• Doug Leone on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-leone-a2714/• Jeff Horing on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhoring2009/• RSA Conference: https://www.rsaconference.com/• Microsoft acquires Adallom to advance identity and security in the cloud: https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2015/09/08/microsoft-acquires-adallom-to-advance-identity-and-security-in-the-cloud/• Imposter syndrome: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/imposter-syndrome• Careers at Wiz: https://www.wiz.io/careers• Setting the Table: The Transforming Power of Hospitality in Business: https://www.amazon.com/Setting-Table-Transforming-Hospitality-Business/dp/0060742763• No Rules Rules: Netflix and the Culture of Reinvention: https://www.amazon.com/No-Rules-Netflix-Culture-Reinvention/dp/1984877860/• Gong: https://www.gong.io/• The Wire on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-wire• Raaz’s pen holder recommendation: https://www.paper-republic.com/products/le-loop-penholder—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

You're one of the first 10 employees. You're the first product manager. When he joined, the founders kind of didn't really have an idea figured out yet. When they landed on an idea and then ended up being wrong, ended up not working. Six weeks after he joined, there was a pivot. At the time, you know, we didn't really have, like, a solid product yet. We would have, like, 10 to 15 meetings every day was, like, potential customers. I was hired as a first product manager.

I set in on those calls. I still did not exactly understand what we were going to build, which was confusing because I was a product manager, So I was supposed to start building it. And so at some point, I was kind of like, I have to ask, what exactly are we doing here? And that ended up like pivoting us around to cloud security. So things started to click a little bit more.

You started seeing enthusiasm. Can you talk about just like what that phase was like? We really felt the type of questions changed, right? Silly, the call sounded like, again, how are you pricing this? Or when can we start doing a POV? I think naturally as human beings, you have a bias to look for affirmation versus like a bias for what you don't want to hear. You started as an engineer.

You moved into product and now you're in marketing, which is not a traditional path. I had a ton to learn about marketing with what I knew really well. Today, my guest is Roz Herzberg. Roz is chief marketing officer and VP of Product Strategy at WIS. Before moving into marketing, Ross was an engineer. And then for most of her career was a product manager. Prior to WIS, Roz led security products in Microsoft, including Azure Sentinel. And at WIS, she moved from VP of product to CMO.

If you haven't heard of WIS, it's not only the world's fastest growing security company, it's also the fastest growing software company in history, hitting 100 million ARR just 18 months after founding, and then just under five years after founding was rumored to be exploring an acquisition by Google for over $23 billion. Even more while, as you'll hear in our conversation, the team initially went in circles on what they wanted to build, and it took them a while to actually land on the idea

that is basically the most intense product market fit of any B-to-B company ever. In our conversation, Ross shares what signals told her and the team that the original idea wasn't going to work, and that what changed in their conversations when they finally found product market fit, why she moved into marketing and what she wished she knew as a product leader from her new marketing lens. Also, her perspective on marketing and what marketing people often get wrong and why CMOs often fail.

Also something she calls the dummy explanation, why you need to pay attention to where the heat is within the organization. She shares her most contrarian take on leadership, and so much more. This was such a fun episode, and there's so much to learn here for product leaders, for marketing leaders, and for founders. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you, Roz Herzberg.

Roz, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. So I want to start by giving a little context on WIS for folks that aren't super familiar with the company. You launched just under five years ago at this point. Within 18 months, you all hit 100 million ARR, which is the fastest growth rate in history of any software company. It's faster than the two other companies I've had on the podcast that also claimed to be the fastest growing software companies deal and ramp. You guys grew even faster. I read that you are at over 500 million ARR now.

I know it's also not confirmed, but a certain company that rhymes with Lugel offered to buy you guys for $23 billion, and you all turn that down, decided to stay private. And also something like 50% of Fortune 100 companies are customers of WIS. Is there anything I missed, anything I got wrong? I've never heard of like that Nougal company. But under that that, Yeah.

Okay, great. We're going to come back to that. What's even crazier is in spite of that, when you join the company, you employ something like number seven? Yeah, we kind of started like the founders and the first like six, seven employees, we just started once. This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a SaaS app, at some point,

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a lot more than that. Rippling is a game changer for the entire company with tools for HR, IT, and spend, all built from the ground up and designed to work together seamlessly. Just hired someone, Ripling makes onboarding easy, whether your new hire sitting next to you or halfway across the world. In just a few clicks, Ripling automatically generates an offer letter, ships a laptop with the necessary apps and permissions, and even delivers a corporate card. An employee needs to update their benefits contribution. When they do it in Rippling, the change automatically sinks to payroll. CTO forgot her laptop in an Uber, lock it remotely with Rippling.

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figured out yet. When they landed in an idea and ended up being wrong, ended up not working, six weeks after you joined, there was a pivot. So the fact that that was true and you went from this like, this isn't working to boom, $100 million A.R. I want to spend some time here because I think there's a lot of people can learn here. So let me just ask, looking back at that point when the idea wasn't working to realizing, hey, maybe this is a better idea. What do you remember are some that told you this isn't working and okay, maybe this is because a lot of founders are in that stage with their products. When we started, it wasn't even Wiz. The company was literally officially founded as beyond networks. And because there was this like idea of, hey, we want to do

something in the network security space. Actually, myself and the founding team and also the other like five engineers that started with us, we actually all came from a background of building cloud security products before. But this time it was like, okay, we actually don't want to do cloud security. We want to do network security. And then what happened was like in those initial like few weeks, you kind of, it also, we started with literally exactly. WIS was founded together with COVID. Like it was like that March when the whole world showed down suddenly everything went like terribly, terribly strange on all of us. That's when WIS started. So it was like our days looked like talking to 10, 15 customers.

What is a B2B product? The buyer is the CISO, the people that, the person that owns basically security for the entire company. So we would have like 10 to 15 meetings every day was like potential customers. At the time, you know, we didn't really have like a solid product yet, but we kind of had like an idea in the deck explaining our idea in what we're going to build and why.

We were all like a very technical group of people, and especially our founding team, a staff, our CEO at WIS, before WIS, he led the entire division of all of the Microsoft Cloud Security products. So they're very, very impressive, very technical, very well-known and respected in the industry. And so, you know, we would join a call

and kind of present and walk through our idea. And the person on the other end would be like, Oh, it sounds interesting. Oh, yes, sounds interesting. We'd love to hear more. Yes, perfect. Sounds interesting. We'd love to hear more.

And you finished calls was like a good feeling. Like the person said, oh, yes, interesting, interesting. But I was, like you said, I was hired as a first product manager. I set in on those calls sometimes like officially participating, sometimes even not officially participated, listening on all of the calls. And I finished like a couple of weeks of those. that, which is a lot of calls, like, I think two weeks or something. And I still did not exactly understand what we were going to build, which was confusing because I was a product manager,

so I was supposed to, you know, like start building it in some ways, like go to the dev team, and start building it. And that was like a point where I felt like I don't know what we are talking about exactly. Now, I really thought I don't know what we're talking about. Like, I thought they all understood what we're building. And I thought every customer we had in the call understood what we're building. It's just that I did not to understand what we're building. And so at some point, I was kind of like, okay, I have to ask. Like, what exactly are we like in the details, right?

Not in like describing a big problem and like a high level big potential approach to solving it. But like what exactly are we going to are we doing here? and I think that that ended up like opening a really deep discussion of okay wait maybe we're telling a bit of a broad story and maybe the person in the other end is not going to tell you

like they're not incentivized to tell you you know what I don't know what you're talking about it's really I guess they felt a bit like me in some ways and they were like oh it's a really smart group of people I'm sure they're building something interesting so yeah interesting they're not incentivized to like really deep dive into the problem And so I think that opened up a discussion for us, and we kind of understood that we were listening in the wrong way, maybe, that we were looking for positive reinforcements, but not really listening intently to signs of deep enthusiasm. And that ended up, like, pivoting us around to cloud security. There's so much to learn just from the short story. And I want to get into, like, what you started hearing that made it sound like, okay, wait, maybe this is a better idea. But first of all, just the fact that you were doing 10 to 15 calls a day, you said?

that was a bit of like in some weird way again Wizz was founded in like that terrible march where the world closed down it seemed at the time like a really bad time to start to start this company right like Marcus O'R froze and everything even my mom which knows nothing about like what exactly I do or why even my mom I mean I left Microsoft to join with even my mom was like calling me and telling me this is not a good time to join a startup but it ended up being in some ways like an advantage because everybody were were home, like suddenly everybody were home. No meetings, no travel. So suddenly Csos, which are like busy people. And, you know, we're, we started originally based in Tel Aviv, so we couldn't

even fly. But suddenly it didn't matter because, I mean, everybody's home. So yeah, we took like 10, 15 to 15 calls a day, back to back, back to back. I think that alone is a really important lesson of just that's how you discover something that isn't working slash find the thing that is working is do. Many, many, many calls. That is a lot of calls. I don't even know how someone has time to do 10 to 15 calls a day. But again, I think that's how you do this. So I think that alone is a really important lesson for folks to take away. I love this point that people are going to try to be nice to you,

especially if they think you're really smart. And especially if you're describing things that might be helpful to them. But what you're sharing is you need to not trust that that often is deceiving. Talk about what it felt like when it moved from just like, oh, this is cool. This is nice. And maybe, yeah, let's talk more to like, oh, maybe this is. actually something they'll buy. We really felt the type of questions changed, right?

Suddenly, the call didn't end and was like, oh, this sounds super interesting. Sure, like, please update me. I'd love to hear more. Suddenly, the call sounded like, wait, again, how are you pricing this? How much will this cost? Or, wait, like, when can we start doing a POV? How long is the POV? Or somebody would, like, finish the call and be like,

okay, I know exactly who I need to connect you to in my team. Those are, like, really strong indications that are the type of indications we learn to look for. Although there's something I think, you know, at the beginning of a company, it's very scary. I think naturally as human beings, you want to get affirmation from the other side. So you're actually, you have a bias to look for affirmation versus like a bias to look for what you don't want to hear. That's just natural being a person. So I felt like that is what we ended up really being in tune with. Like, no, I have to, and you stand there in tendly interested. Like they want to connect me to somebody. They want to know how much this costs.

And if somebody just tells you, like you said, oh, super cool. Yeah. I want to take this as a good sign, but I shouldn't. It's almost like you need to see them pushing for the next step is what I'm hearing. It's like, let's do a POV. What's the next step to do this? I want to connect you to this person to talk further about this versus just like, yeah, this is awesome. Thank you. And then, okay, bye. Yeah, exactly. And also like in B2B, that is really the process you have to take, right? Like after you, you have to get connected to the actual team that will test the tools, we'll deploy it. Like, there needs to be real passion about doing something. And I guess that is a difference. It's like real passion about, hey, I want this right now. The other point

you made is that you were the person, like nobody was saying this thing that was kind of this elephant in the room almost of what are we even building? I don't understand what's happening here. I read somewhere that you were like, you told I need, I need to quit. Like, I don't. understand what this is and I'm not like the right person for this role and turned out nobody understood exactly what was going on. Can you share that story? It's funny because it's a story that some of the founders tell and they tell differently. Like they tell like she came to us and she was like, we have to rethink. But that's really not how it, that was not my, that was not my perspective at all, right?

Like my perspective was genuinely, okay, I have to confess. That was my perspective. I was so, I was sure that I was the only one not understanding. It's hard to kind of get the courage, I guess. Like sometimes it's hard to get the courage to say, actually, I don't understand. But I think by now in my career, it's like my favorite question. I feel like I say I don't understand a lot of times today. And I think if you build a company with the right type of, of culture in a sense,

that it's not ashamed to say, like, I don't understand or please explain again. It's having that culture and places enables it. And I also have to say, like, when I think of, you know, the founding team and the founding team in WIS, WIS is a very, like,

flat organization in some ways. It's not about seniority. It's really about driving impact and everybody can have a seat on the table and voices are heard. And I think it also reflects really highly about them, you know, kind of just giving me the,

the seat at the table in a sense to be even able to say I don't understand. Then when I'm saying I don't understand, not actually being open to, oh, maybe we have to also think again. And I think that tells a lot about the culture even to this day. But it's definitely, for me, it's a very learned quality over my progression of my career, actually allowing myself to be more vulnerable, more, more easier in saying I don't understand or I don't know. I love this lesson so much. One partly because you said it's really scary to be the person that's like, I don't understand, right? That puts you,

that's like a very vulnerable thing to say because they're like, what, she doesn't get it? Maybe she's not as smart as we thought. And, you know, that can't be easy to be the person doing that. The other thing is this reminds me of Tomor Cohen, LinkedIn. CPO has this really great phrase,

we may be wrong, but we're not confused. And I feel like that's exactly what you're saying here. Exactly, which is why I love this question to this day. Like, I love it. I do think that if something, is not easy to understand, then maybe it needs a bit more chewing on it.

I love that. Okay. So things started to click a little bit more. You started seeing enthusiasm. Can you talk about just like what that phase was like and any lessons from just like that turn to things are actually working? I have to say, I think the feeling after we made that switch, like what ended up happening is that after that like big conversation that we know I don't understand we ended up having and this

never happens I don't think it's ever happened since and twist like almost like a long like five-hour discussion with all the founders where we decided to like move away from that pivot to cloud security which is what we really in some ways like no best that's our background that's what we did before and we felt the problems there was so big and so strong and once we started having the conversations with like the new like the new pivot to cloud security the room felt so different. I mean it was all over Zoom right but I mean our room it felt very different

you could once we once we found the right path you could just it was so easy to distinguish it from the wrong path in some ways and because we did start getting those like strong signals and in some ways they pushed us forward right like a customer was like okay I want started a POVB and we're like oh okay of course let's schedule for like Thursday next week or something right like we tried to even postpone it a bit because we had to run fast

another learning I have from that from that phase was I explicitly remember that first conversation where it was like okay let's do a POV it was a fortune 10 company a really big company and we had you know a beginning of a product we wanted to buy some time until we actually start the POV and so just because of that we kind of said, okay, also we want to really understand like exactly what they will connect

to us as part of the POV because everything was so initial. So we put this like long list of technical questions. Like, what are you using for this? What are you doing here? What are you going on? And on the one hand, because we needed to know to actually build a thing on the other end just because we wanted to buy time. And I was super scared

to remember sending that email and being like they want a POV and now I'm like going to scare them away with this like list of things they have to do and lists of questions, like, it's counterintuitive. But actually, it came back filled a day later. And I remember my lesson being, you know what? This is actually good. I want to make sure they're committed, right? I don't want to push somebody into a POV. If he has not committed to me at this stage, I mean, it's not a well-built product. It's going to be a journey we take together. So they need to

really want it. I need that commitment from the other side. I'm not to. trying to push something on someone, especially not at this point. In my opinion, not ever. Like, not even today. Not even when you sell it large scales. I'm not trying to push anybody to anything. I really want to make sure they want it. I have to feel that want back. So that was another learning for me. It's like, first of all, when it works, it works. And you do know when it works. And the second is don't be too afraid to get the pull from the customer. Like, it's okay. Like, you need that pull from the other end as well. Don't push too hard. I know people always talk about like look for pull

and I love that you're describing what pull looks like somebody's next day filling out a really complicated, annoying questionnaire because they just want this product. They've never heard of before you chatted with them and now they're like, give it to me now, I'm going to do anything unique. Is there anything else along these lines before we move into your current role and learnings there? I also think that one of the things we did very almost like uniquely it was

that because things started rolling so fast for us from we found the right path, we ended up selling before we had a seller's team. And we ended up like kind of almost in some ways always being behind, right? Like, okay, I'm closing contracts with people. I haven't hired my first salesperson. I don't know what we're doing here. Like I don't know how to have the conversations.

But we ended up learning so much from that. Like from us ourselves, us being the founders, myself, closing the deals, like actually going all the way to contracts and everything. ourselves, kind of. We learned a lot. We learned a lot. And then when we hired our first sales hire, it was also like, look, like we sold a couple million of this. So you, for sure, as a salesperson, right? Like, you kind of give that confidence. So I felt like there was multiple places where that ended up happening just by accident because of how fast things ended up

happening for us. And actually, it was a really good learning experience to do it for the first time ourselves. I think sometimes when you start building a company, you have this like wish that if you can't do something, you're going to hire the right person, and he will be able to do it. Like, okay, I feel like my message is not clear enough, and we just started this company, it's okay, I'm going to hire my first product marketer and that's going to be it. Or I feel like we can't close a deal. Okay, because I need to hire my first salesperson, that will be it. I hardly find that, I don't think we've ever had that work for us, honestly.

It's like, if you can't do it one time into end and you're like the core, core group, the chances of just bringing somebody from the outside to solve that problem, it's wishful in some ways. But it never ends up that way. I love this advice so much. There's kind of like two parallels here. Like if the founder can do it, who has the most context and passion and motivation,

it's unlikely an employee is going to be able to do it. And it's similar to the selling point that if your early customers aren't pulling from you, later customers are not going to have a good time, right? It's like the most passion comes early. How long did you all stay doing sales as a founding team? Like how many millions there are roughly? Do you remember? Oh, a couple million.

I don't remember the exact number. A couple million. Awesome. That's incredible. Often they hear us to get here is like one or two million error and then you start to hire salespeople. Okay. That was an awesome lesson.

I love that. I want to talk about your current role. So currently your CMO and also VP are product strategy at WIS. You started as an engineer. You moved into product and now you're in marketing, which is not a traditional path, especially for product people. First of all,

why did you decide to move into marketing from product? Yeah, it's not a traditional path for anyone, I think. Also not one I would have necessarily like expecting myself to be on. First of all, it's not like I had this plan, right? In general, I, myself, people sometimes ask me about, you know, career progression. and I never had a plan for anything that is just

the only thing I did was like follow good people around that's it I never had a plan for anything I do and so myself coming to WIS was following Asaf and Yon and the founding team and like two and a half years into WIS at that time WIS was already like it was a very clear product market fit we had like our revenues were already there

like we had a sales team that was fully functioning But at that point, it was we felt marketing was still something we didn't fully figure out. Like, it wasn't working super well for us. We were at this stage where, yes, if there was a POV, a proof of value happening,

we would win it versus competition. But many times we would come to a customer and they would be like, oh, I wish we heard of Wiz. We just signed with a competitor, which, like, it breaks your heart, right? Because I know. I know they would have chosen. me had they heard about me in time. So you started feeling that challenge around awareness and

marketing. So two and a half years into the company, basically a staff, our CEO asked me if I was willing to take on marketing. Originally, I thought it was, I remember he, he like, you know, like knocked on my, like, bothered me while I was working on my computer. And we went into this like super cold room. It was like, when you were a fast growing startup, all of the room. are always full, you know what I mean? So we went to this like server room, which is freezing cold. And I was in the middle of something. You told me, I think you should lead the marketing org now.

And I told him, okay, I was like, I said, I'm going back to work, I have a lot to do. It sounded that bizarre to me. I have never, it's not only did they not know marketing. I spent my life in engineering and any product. It's not the go-to-market side even. I was never part of the go-to-market org. I have never heard of a lead in my life. I did not know the word pipeline.

Like, all of those things were very remote to me, very. And so it sounded like such a bizarre motion, but that was like on a Thursday. And then I spent the weekend, because he asked me to. And again, I just follow good people and do what they tell me to do. So I spent the weekend, like, listening to a ton of podcasts talking to CMOs. Just to even understand, like, what do CMOs do? Like, what do marketing orgs do in B2B companies? and then they ended up deciding to just give it a try

and we did not know if it was going to work. I also don't know if it's going to work forever, right? But we ended up deciding to give it a try. And I think the thing that's convinced me to do it was that in some ways I really felt like if in the early days of the company, like finding product market fit is like a major block for the company

and then like building a sales organization becomes a major block for the company, I felt like we were at the point where you have to figure it out to scale. Like at some point of every product, people start looking really heavily at brand, whether we think that way or we don't. Like when I buy my iPhone, I have no idea how it really is compared to an Android phone. I did not look at the specs. I truly have no idea. So why do I buy, like, why do I buy an iPhone? I just know it's like the thing to buy. B2B products, even the most complex products, people are still people. They still buy it because brand matters.

a lot. So that was part of what convinced me that this is super important. So if I'm asked to attempt, I'll at least try. I'll at least try because I do think it's really important. I love this. I love the detail of the cold room, by the way. Speaking of cold, when we were chatting earlier, you had this really beautiful metaphor of heat and where heat is within an organization and how it shifts as the company grows. Can you share that? Yeah, it's exactly that. It's like that in the Early, early days when we just started with, I remember I felt like the heat was in the product kitchen. Because it's like everybody's waiting to have something people want to start doing something, right? And then I felt like, okay, you start understanding it.

And now the heat moves a bit to like the engineering side. Like, okay, build it. Somebody wants it, build it. Make it work. And then I felt, okay, so we close a couple of deals now, right? We had their first, like, couple of clients. now you bring in sales and the heat kind of moves to sales because they're like, okay, we have this thing now go sell it. And then the heat starts moving to marketing, in my opinion, where it's like,

okay, we have the far as markets fit. Salespeople can sell it, but they're saying, give me more pipeline. Like, hey, nobody heard of WIS, give me more. So the heat kind of moves to marketing at that point. So in my, that's kind of, I've always felt like, yeah, in some ways, I also naturally kind of, I guess, follow the heat. And I think it's actually more so that they put the best people in the places that need the most help. And clearly that was you when they did that. This episode is brought to you by CloudNary, the foundational technology for all images and video on the internet. Trusted by over 2 million developers and many of the world's leading brands, Cloudnary is the API-first image and video management platform built for product leaders,

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Start your free plan today at cloudinary.com slash Lenny. I asked one of your board members, Shardul Shaw, what to ask you. He's a partner in index ventures, and here's what he told me. Speaking of kind of this move to marketing, he said that when you were in your first board meeting, the whiz board meeting, presenting marketing, sharing your plan, and you asked him, hey, can you introduce me to all these marketing leaders so I can learn from them? He basically did the opposite. He's like, no, I'm going to introduce all my marketing leaders to you because I think

they need to learn from you. Why do you think that's the case? I think Shardotul is very kind. I even, I deeply remember that meeting because funny enough, it was my first board meeting ever. And that is a funny thing by itself because Wizz's board, you know, we have Shardul on our board. We have Doug Laone and we have like Jeff from Insights. We have, it's, it's a very, it's almost like, it's very humbling to sit down in front of those people, period. And since I decided to take marketing and I took it to the CMO role, this was also my first board meeting ever. And also it was like the meeting where it's like, you know, in some ways, I was not that. I was like, you know, okay, we took our product manager person.

She was never a CMO with any company. And now she has a CMO here. And so it was just like a very, you know, the whole setting was very stressful for me. So I just ended up, it was like, I think the, I think we just had the meeting. like two months after I took over marketing. And so it was more of like an update of like, hey, those are the changes I've made. And this is how I'm thinking of approaching this. And this is all the things I've done in the past two months.

It's funny because I'm a very non-traditional marketer just because I really don't know marketing. Like at this point, I kind of know already because I've been doing it for two years and I read a lot. But at that point, I generally did not know. Like I could not even explain to you how untraditional my approach was in some ways. I just really did what I thought I mean, what I knew I had a ton to learn about marketing but what I knew really well

was the problem we solved and I really knew our audience. So like I myself, I come from security. I come from cloud security. I read all the right Twitters and I follow all the right people on Twitter and I read all the right blogs and I like I know what's funny.

I know what matters. Like I know it's interesting right now. I generally because this is my space. I mean I live in that space truly as a customer. So I was kind of like just thinking, okay, what are things I could do to start fixing the problem that mattered most? And that was nobody heard of WIS at that time.

So those were just like, I was like kind of saying, okay, I think to, in order to do that, they'm willing to take chances. I'll just focus on making a lot of noise. And I think even in those, even in that like short time of two months, we, we saw like changes happening already in some ways. So I think that what Sher Dole meant by that, of course, although I do think he's being very, very kind,

and they have learned a lot from many marketing people, including my own team, by the way, which is another interesting thing, right? Like, I took over a large team of people who are marketers, and I'm this like, person knows nothing about marketing, but will now manage this. So I learned a lot from many marketers, including my own exceptional team.

But I think he meant really kind of looking at it differently, just thinking, okay, what is the end to the goal of having the right people hear the right thing about my company, ASAP, versus a ton of like, I know, a ton of like kind of traditional aspects of building pipelines and different things. They really need not know how to do it that time. So following that thread, I'm curious, what is it that you think CMO's mistake or often do wrong? And why do you think CMOs often don't work out and they brought in someone like you with this very fresh perspective. What do you think?

What do you think folks often go wrong? First of all, I think CMO is a very, very hard role. And also, I think it's a role that is very hard to do without a lot of trust and without a deep connection to the founding team. Everything you do in marketing is very visible. I mean, and you're kind of touching something that matters so deeply to the founding team. and you're the one like representing it to the world. So it's,

it's very hard to build that trust and it's very easy to break it. Because like one bad ad or something that one of the founding team will say like, oh, this is not us. This is like not what they mean. This is not the right thing. It breaks the trust really easily. And I think it's especially challenging. I mean, I really don't know how somebody that does not come from a,

from a security background could kind of be successful. deeply in this type of a role for a company like WIS. Because it is really about understanding your customers and it is really about understanding your product. I think that's very, very hard to gain. So I guess I would kind of say I think it's like the deep trust you need with the founding team and the really deep connection you need to the product and to the market. And I think both of that, when you kind of come from the outside in the way,

because you are not part of the founding team. And also you maybe come from outside the market sometimes. because it's a very technical market or it's a very different domain, then I think it's two really big challenges. I'm not saying you can't come over them, but I think it's just a very, very hard job. And on top of that, it's a very diverse job. Like, when I was a product manager, I managed product managers.

I know exactly what they like, what they don't like. That's my audience. I know who to hire. I have the best network. I know every single PM and security around me. Like, it's so different. When you're a marketing leader, you manage performance marketing, which is a numbers game.

You manage designers and brand, and then you manage events and field. There's nothing in between those things that is deeply correlated. And so it's just a very, very challenging and very interesting role. This trust point is so interesting, especially based on what you said earlier,

what you wanted to do is create noise, take some risks. That's extra hard if you're not someone that the founding team trusts. Can you share some of the things you did that helped create noise and get the whiz name out there that might inspire folks of like, oh, that was really cool.

We should do something like that. Yeah. Another like insight I had about marketing in the early days was how different it is from product. As a product manager, I was always and still believe it's so important to think really hard about everything you add. Like less is more. If you decide to build a feature in a product, then A, you're taking engineering time,

which is the most valuable resource in every company, in my opinion. And B, in some ways you can never take it. back. Like, it's complicated to your product. Even if one customer likes it and uses it, at least at B2B, you're never going to be able to, like, suddenly take it away. And every new product you add to your product will, like every new feature you add to your product, you will have to think about, okay, how does it work with that feature? So it's like making a mistake, like adding something to the product, that is not the right thing or that is not truly, truly what your customer needed, even if it's what they asked for. But if it's not

what they truly needed, it has a huge cost, like a huge cost associated with it. marketing is quite the opposites in my opinion there's no cost to anything no maintenance to anything no technical depth no anything like if tomorrow I post a video on Wiz's LinkedIn page and I think that video is super funny and nobody likes that video nothing happened tomorrow I'll post a different video

no maintenance bye bye forgot it ever happened so in some ways it kind of dawned in me how opposite those things were and I was kind of like okay we have to just like use it to our advantage like let's try everything let's try everything. I'm trying to make noise. It was right before, like, when I took over, it was like before RSA.

RSA is like the Super Bowl of security companies. So it's where every vendors come to kind of showcase and all our buyers are there and you kind of, you know how those conferences go, you kind of pay for having a space assigned to you. It's like a very expensive

space to assign to yourself. And we had the exact same spot we had the year before. And I said, okay, it's like like it's a booth at a conference, I'll just make it the weirdest booth ever, because my goal is just having people look and be like, oh, what is whiz?

Right? Because they've never heard of me. So instead of doing like a classical cyber booth, I decided to say, okay, let's scrap our booth and do a whiz of Oz booth, which literally looked like a whiz of Oz booth. And we had actors like Dorothy and like all those things like hanging around there. And it looked nothing, nothing.

Like any boost in the show, which is a cybersecurity show. Things are like red and black and like people with hoodies. And we decided to take a completely opposite approach. In general, I also decided that we're going to take a completely opposite approach was brand. I wanted Wiz's brand to, again, my first motive, stand out. So I wanted Wiz to have like a very positive, optimistic type of brand.

So I went all in on like scrap whatever we were doing before, which was like dark. And go pink, go bright blue, always go optimistic. and focus on like magic, not scaring people from attacks, but magic. And that ended up like, and it was scary. Don't get me wrong. Half of me was like, I remember feeling so scared walking to the show, to the floor trade. Because I was like, is this going to be the most terrible, bizarre? Are people going to be like, what is she thinking?

So I knew it could either be like a failure or a hit. And it ended up like the amount of people, that stopped by our booth was like five times the amount of people that stopped by the year before. And it's the exact same space, the exact same investment because you invest in the space. But also ever since we do themed booths, like every time we change themes to keep it fun. At this point, you will see other cyber companies even doing themes because like, we were just like, okay, we'll do whatever it takes to make noise. And this is just one example.

That is an amazing story. And you said that other companies now try to do something similar, right? Oh, man. So along these lines, when we were chatting earlier, you shared that you kind of have this mindset of being very okay with failing. That's kind of a core part of you. And it feels like that comes up again and again in the stories you share where you just try stuff and you're okay if it doesn't work out. You just talk about that part and why that's so important. Almost every single thing I've done in my career in some ways, even before, I never thought it was going to be successful in it.

And so I guess, you know, there's a lot of times it's like a lot of talk about like being more confident than yourself. I don't know, at least for me, I don't really know if that's like a real option. Okay? I just know that I'm kind of okay with being pretty sure I'm going to fail at something and still attempting it. That is like the thing that has grown in me where, you know, when I took the job it was, I was sure they're going to like, I was sure they got confused, that they offered to take me with him. I was certain that it's going to be like, okay, they're going to figure out that I'm not the right fit for that, like, super smart and talented group of people who have all worked together before, by the way. I was sure they're going to, like, find me out.

And I was sure I was going to, I was pretty sure I was going to fail, but I will still take it. Like, right? So it's like, I thought I was going to fill the product manager role, too, although I did have the experience. So that also makes it easier to move in some ways if I think I'm going to fail with anything. I'm like, okay, whatever, I'll try. And I think over time, yeah, it releases you a bit. Like, sure, I might fail. By the way, I might still fail.

It's also fine. Like, it's even in my current role, right? Like, probably not for every scale. It will make sense for me to do it. But that's also fine. Like, it's still just giving yourself the opportunity to fail. That is really empowering. Is there anything that helps you build that skill?

Because that's not natural to a lot of people being okay with failure and leaning into things that they think they will probably fail. Where did that come from for you? You know, depending on, like, what do you believe in everything comes from childhood. So in some ways, like, I do think it has to do with, like, the way I was, I think the way my mom kind of raised me, my mom really believed that, like, if you're good at something. So that's not where you should invest your energy. Like, she really believed in, like, kind of pushing us, like, pushing us through the places where we're less confident in, I guess. I mean, I was a very, I was a very shy kid.

My natural inclination as a young kid was like to close the door in my room, read a book. I had no interest in like meeting other kids or doing sports or like nothing, nothing really like. It's super, super shy and I think also slightly on social by nature, really. But so for my mom, she could have been like, oh, so she's really good with like books and math. So let's focus like, let's perfect. Like let her build up the skill and be really good with that. But no, she would like make me go swimming and like make me go meet other kids. And in some ways, I feel she always used to say that like friction is good.

Like if you brush your teeth and there's like a bit of blood somewhere, then you need to brush harder there. It's kind of like that idea that like friction is kind of good. If you're good at something already, then you're good at something already. So it's like a bit more about learning how to learn how to push yourself in other areas. I think she put hard work and courage in some ways, or friction mostly, above talent. Like, talent only gets you so far, but like that hard work and the friction gets you more. That is an awesome story. It's interesting that friction is good circles back to the story you shared about creating

like hurdles for potential prospects early on and creating looking for enthusiasm where they're filling out these long surveys. How about that? No, it's true. You're right. It shows something. Like, it shows if you do, it's always easier to be in like inertia, right? That's why I also say sometimes it's like, it's like a breakup advice I give my girlfriends over the years. It's like, well, if you decide to break up with somebody, it's for sure the right decision, right? Because like not breaking up with somebody is much easier. It's so hard to break up. So that makes it by default, like the right decision. So it's like, yes, where there's friction, it means that you put something extra in. I want to circle back to marketing slash product advice going back full circle a little bit. So folks, they're in product. Now that you're in the marketing world thinking about marketing, what do you think you wish you knew as a product leader that you think product leader should be thinking more of or maybe miss that you now see as a marketing leader? Having done products for many years, I really did not understand the criticality of marketing and even of product marketing. I really did not understand deeply enough that sometimes even gap between, like when you're in the product and you really live inside the product and the technical domain, you can sometimes not understand how far you are from like a common person in your market or a seller in your market.

And marketing in a lot of ways bridges that gap. It's like a multiplier, but it's like the further you get away from like the core, like engineer, than product, then in order for the messages to move correctly, they have to be crystal clear. That is something I understood only when looking at from the other side. Like if you're on the product side, you can often kind of work with things that are like fluffy or blurry or like gray. Okay. Like somebody will ask you can the product do this and you'll be like, yeah, not exactly, but like you know, it can do like blah blah blah, like kind of work around something, right? It doesn't have to be crystal clear because you can kind of go around things in a way that when you try to scale your message, you can't.

Like it gets lost in translation. You have to be crystal clear, black and white. You have to communicate very clearly, especially as an organization's scale. You have to communicate very clearly. Like suddenly looking at the product org from the outside in the company that scales fast. And you said, whoa, like product marketing and marketing plays a really important role. and being able to take that message and amplify it, and if you are giving signals that are even a bit gray, fuzzy,

then it's not going to work, and you can't expect them to do a good job with it in some ways. So I really, by understanding the go-to-market perspective and the user perspective and the seller perspective, I suddenly understood how things that can look simple on the inside of that side are very complex when you kind of cross over to the go-to-market side. And I think learning the difference is so, so-so-so-imple.

important for product people to understand, like, that they have to deliver those, like, crystal clear messages about the product. Is there an example that where you're like, oh, wow, I thought this was good, but no, nobody understands what we're talking about. There's so much. Like, I think, for example, in our domain, it's very almost custom to, like, talk in a lot of initials. Like, a lot of things in security are, like, use initials for them.

You say, like, CSBM for cloud security poster management. And, like, you use a lot of those types of initials. and you keep assuming that the world knows what you mean. But then when actually looked at things over from the marketing side, like if you ask our product people and engineers, like, what is our, where does our products fall in terms of category? It would be like CNAP, cloud native application protection. But if you go over and you like look at Google, like people are not Googling that word.

They're Googling like cloud security solution, right? So that's just like a simple and silly example. but it's bad example that like when you live inside something very technically and like inside your marketing and domain you're very remote sometimes of accident from the buyer and so a lot of those learnings kind of clicked for me only once they saw everything from the marketing side. You have this concept that you described as the dummy explanation when someone you just needed to feel really, really simple. Can you add some color to that? Yes, it's when I now in marketing and in everything we write and everything our team produces in terms of anything, anything written by WIS.

I keep kind of going back to, I don't want us to forget that we are inside our own bubble. We go to work at WIS every day. WIS is a cloud security company. It's cloud security. Like, we live inside our own bubble, but reminding ourselves that customers don't live in that bubble. They're like people in the world.

They're not, their life is not WIS. So every time you write something, I wanted to not assume knowledge about WIS, or knowledge about the product, or deep knowledge about the market. I'll give just a simple example. Wiz itself is based on, like, part of the deep innovation that was brought to the market that enabled the scale was very high correlated signal that's based on a graph database. So inside WIS, we have the WIS graph database for security.

If you write something that says the WIS graph database, I don't like it, because why would a common person know what is the WISGraph database? right? So it's making sure that every single thing you say is understandable by anybody. There's no reason to use complex terminology when you can keep things straight and simple. Easier said than done, but such a good reminder to always be, is there like a framework here? Are you just like trying to remember people outside don't understand anything we are talking about and simplified further? Like, how do you actually practice that? Because it's like, I imagine everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know all this stuff, but they don't actually do it.

Is there any tips there for I to actually practice this? I constantly remind myself about the bubble. Every time somebody says, oh, we haven't changed our color for so long, or our website's headline. It's like, or, you know, a lot of those things, for me, it's like you're the only one that is sick of it, right? Your customers are just learning what you put there, like 10 months ago. You are the only one looking at this thing like day after day, after day, after day, after day,

after day, after day, you're actually going to change it only, like they're just starting to grasp it and you're changing it under their feet. it's living in that bubble and constantly reminding myself, like, it is a bubble. I'm in the whiz bubble, right? But my audience does not. So yeah, it's a daily reminder. It's hard to get, it's hard, it's a hard daily reminder. That is so funny. Okay. Just a few more questions. One is, so there's four co-founders of WIS. Is that right? Yeah. What is your relationship with them? How has that changed over the years and over time.

And just like, I imagine it's very difficult being a not founder, trying to have a lot of influence on strategy and vision and all these things. Just I guess like, how has that relationship changed over the years? Anything there that might be helpful to folks and any advice for people in a similar boat to work well with founders who also very product-oriented and very opinionated about everything. Yeah, I think the West's founding team is a truly incredible team. they also have a very unique story. Wiz is actually their second company together.

So before Wiz, they founded Adelam, which sold to Microsoft. That's how they all ended up in Microsoft in the first place. And even before that, they all worked together in the Israeli army. So they've known each other for like, they've been working together for like 30 years, right? It's a long, long time. Well, not 30. I made them older, like 20, 22, 22 years. It's a very, very, very unique team where there is complete,

trust between the team members and also a very clear understanding of what falls under, like, each has his own clear domain. And that's why decisions are made super fast, super fast. Because they're complete trust and everybody has their, their clearly own domain. And I think the unique thing about Witt, and I truly think it defines our company's culture to this day, is exactly that they did not have to work hard to be able to impact strategy and get a seat at the table. I think that it's open.

It's a very open culture and an open company that goes back to the beginning of being able to say, I don't understand. They really believe in employees and they really believe in giving everybody a chance to have impact. Regardless of title or experience or anything, if you want to drive more impact, you will get the chance. I think it's something I really learned to adore in that team. It's like they will give their trust.

to someone and they will allow you to try. And I think it also causes employees to have a lot of loyalty because you are given those opportunities and you are given that chance. And it builds a very, very healthy culture. And I think also a culture that's very loyal, like everybody feels part of what's being built here. Incredible. And how many employees are there?

How large is Wiz at this point just for folks to get a sense if they want to potentially join Wiz someday? Around like 1,500. Okay, awesome. Amazing. Okay. Well, potentially a final question.

I want to take us to Contrarian Corner. I'm curious if there's something you have a very contrarian opinion about, something that you believe that a lot of other people don't believe. We've already covered a number of things, I think, like that. But is there anything else that comes to mind? It's so funny because I don't think we've covered anything contrarian. Okay. I think like one thing is maybe goes back to what I was talking about before,

but it was failing in confidence. I think like kind of being, at least like being a woman in tech, you get talked to a lot about like imposter syndrome and building up her confidence. And I actually do think that like my approach to it, at least for me, has been just more effective.

Like I won't be able to build that confidence. I do feel like an imposter. And I know there's always like those statistics about many people feeling that way. So I think maybe just like, let's embrace it. I feel like an imposter. You feel like an imposter. Everybody feels like an imposter. It's like kind of maybe embrace it, but don't let that stop you from making a decision.

Like maybe they will find out you're an imposter. Maybe let them find out. Like it's fine. Like I just, you know, if you think about trying to go to interview for a company and you start thinking, oh, no, I won't get accepted. They won't take me. Perfect. Let them not accept you.

Like you think you're not good. enough, perfect. That's on them to not accept you, right? Like, give yourself that opportunity. And I think for me, maybe less talking about like the imposter syndrome, more talking about just like, okay, but ignore it. Like, you will never know your limit if you don't try. The best advice I've heard along these lines, which is basically what you're saying is that when you take on a new role, you like, you actually are an imposter. You've never done this before. And that's okay. And that's very normal. Most people in a new role when they're promoted, given a big opportunity. Like, yeah, you're an imposter in many ways, but that's okay. That's exactly what you're saying. I never heard of. I love it. I love it.

Roz, is there anything else you wanted to share? Anything else that we haven't touched on that you think might be helpful to folks before we get our very exciting lightning round? I deeply, deeply believe that we're doing something super special in WIS. And I think the company is in like such an interesting place of hyper-scaling, but still keeping that authentic and I think flat and enabling culture. I think there's literally interesting opportunities across every domain. So yeah, just to say that we are always hiring for great people trying to make an impact. Are there any roles areas you're specifically most focused on hiring now in case folks are listening? You're like, oh, shit, I'm going to apply.

Truly, we are hiring across, like the beauty of hyper-sailing is we're hiring across everything. But also, if you're, if you feel super strongly about joining and you don't find the right role, we'd still love to talk to you. Like, there's many, many things for passionate people to do here. Awesome. We'll link to the career page in the show notes. And with that, Roz, we reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? I'm ready.

I hope. First question. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? So I focus, like, a bit of the product side of things. So we mentioned, like, the heat in the kitchen. Actually, one of my most favorite business books, and I've read, like, a lot of them, is probably setting the table by Deni. mayor, which is he owns Shake Shack and like a chain of really great restaurants in New York.

And it's such an interesting business perspective from a different domain than obviously tech or SaaS. But there's so many applicable lessons there from the deep connection to hosting, focusing and obsessing over your customer. You know, Shake Shack, like, unlike other chains where they optimize for you not to sit down, they optimize for you to sit down there. Like, it's a very, very unique culture and unique vision. And I've learned a lot and some of the most, like, memorable lessons come from his management thoughts. And managing, you know, huge chains, but also very high-end restaurants. And I think it's a very, very inspiring book and different, like just different from my domain,

but it's very applicable in my domain as well. And then a second book I really like. I read it early on in WIS, and so did the entire founding team, I think. the book by Netflix co-founder, Reid Hasting, No Rules, Rules, which also I think talks very, like very clearly. Netflix has a super unique culture and story, right? Like, moving, talk about pivots. Like, they sold cassettes over mail and somehow pivoted to what it is today.

That's an insane story. And think about, like, pivoting from, like, a tech company to a company that has production studios and produces reality TV, like, right? Like, talk about the type of culture you would need to. to truly pivot. I think it's a super interesting read for anybody thinking about putting strong culture in place.

I'm going to call an audible and ask about marketing specifically. You said that early on you read some marketing books and listened to marketing podcast. Is there anything else that you recall was very helpful in helping you ramp up in this world and do marketing?

Honestly, I think at the end for me, I just ended up saying, you know what, what are the companies I feel do things really well. Like what are the brands I love and what do I love about them? And then really obsessing about like what did they do?

Like what are their team doing? And then also obsessing about the people behind it. So for example, I think Gong did, does like an amazing job in marketing for a B2B product. And so it was like, okay, so what are all the things Gong did? And then I would look up like, like every single, like, talk their CMO gave. So it's like kind of, I always like backed up into it.

I did not care if it's like a security company or not security company. I actually don't like the way most security companies market things. It's mostly by like frightening and fear. And that's not really, I don't like it. So for me, it was just like looking at brands I love and then backtracking from there. I love that. We have the CPU of Gong and co-founder coming on the podcast very soon. So I will ask him about this.

Oh, cool. All right. Next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show? You really enjoyed? Honestly, like, hardly, hardly, hardly watch anything. I think The Wire is the best, like, show ever created. I will take that fight with anybody. But, yeah, I haven't really watched anything super recent.

The only problem with The Wire is it's so long to watch. I've watched, I've seen it, I love it, but it's like a large commitment. It's like an hour times 22 episodes times, I think, five seasons, but worth it. Worth it. Next question. Do you have a favorite product? recently discovered that you really love. It's a funny question in the world we live in where there's like just so many. That's why. Which one should we pay attention to? That's the

question. I'll answer a pretty random answer. I always go around with like a notebook and a pen, still that type of person. I mean, they constantly walk around with them, right? Like across office rooms, blah, blah, blah. And I always care deeply about the notebook and the pen. Like I'm a very picky person. I pick pens. I pick notebooks. And I often lose my pens, which, is sad. And I recently bought like this cute, something you, it's like very geeky, but like you can, like a pen holder for a notebook. I did not know they existed. It's a very nice feature. It's like small magnetic and it like claps into your notebook and then you can put the pen in it. Really nice feature. How does one find this? Is there a brand or a name or something?

Oh, I'll send you a link. But if you look like notebook penholder, you'll find a ton. Okay, cool. We'll link to in the show notes, whatever you recommend. Just a couple more questions. do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find helpful in work or in life? I think keeping it simple. If you start feeling like something is too complex or an answer is too complex

or something you're building in the product is too complex, or something in your life feels too complex, like probably it does mean something, but sometimes you just have to like maybe take two steps back, like leave it there until you come back to it again and you find a simple way out. Whether it's a product feature or anything, I feel like if you start getting too, if something starts getting too complex and you don't know how to design it or how to find end from start, it does mean it's not the right solution.

It's too complex. It's not the right solution. But sometimes like take two steps back and they find it's applicable to anything in life almost. Reminds me of the story when you're trying to sell the initial version of whiz slash new beyond whatever was called early on. And it was just too complicated and no one understood what the hell is going on. And so I love how that circles back. final question. I know you can't talk too much about this, but I'm also just curious what you're able to share. As I said, allegedly, a company whose name rhymes with Lugel wanted to buy you guys for many billions, and you all decided to decline that and stay private. Anything could share there about maybe why you decided to do that if that was true at all? Yeah, I mean, I can't address like any specific offers. Obviously, it was over the years, over the years has gotten many acquisition offers. I can share that.

I think for us, us being the founding team, the employees, the customers, the board, staying on an independent path, we all really believe that WIS can become one of the biggest security companies in the world. When you look at WIS today, and I mean, we spoke about the unconventional growth, when you think about it, in some ways WIS addresses the biggest growing market of security. Like cloud security, cloud is the fastest growing. Cloud is such a fast-growing market. Cloud grows like 20-30% year over a year.

We feel like everything is in the cloud. But in reality, by estimation, only like 20%, 15 to 20% of the infra today is in cloud. So it's a really, really fast-growing estate in the fast-growing market. And security by nature is a bit of like a market of leaders, right? I mean, it's a bit like buying insurance for something. You want to buy it from the best, from the leader in this domain. And today, WIS really is bad leader because it's a new space. Like WIS is considered, I think, in many ways.

And that is also what makes marketing and brand, not just marketing, but truly brand so important. Like WIS is considered, I think, the cloud security company in a lot of ways. Right. Still, of course, it's ours to lose. There's a ton of work ahead of us, right? But that is a huge opportunity in front of us, becoming the cloud security company. And I think nobody thinks we are anywhere near ready. to give it up in a way.

I totally understand that. And again, this is hiring in case you are inspired by what you're hearing. Roz, this was incredible. I'm so happy that you did this. Thank you so much for being here. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe follow up on stuff? And how can listeners be useful to you?

Find me on LinkedIn. And yeah, no, apply. We love great people who are learners, which I think is what this podcast is all about. So definitely the right place to find the right people. Awesome, Russ. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Bye, everyone.

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