Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - How I built a 1M+ subscriber newsletter and top 10 tech podcast | Lenny Rachitsky

Episode Date: March 12, 2026

People have been asking me to sit on the other side of the mic for a long time. With my wife’s debut children’s book, Charts for Babies, coming out next month, we figured: why not do it together? What followed was one of the most honest conversations I’ve had on this podcast. Michelle asked things no one else would think to ask—and many things I’ve never shared publicly. You’ll hear about the specific moments that pushed me to start the newsletter, how I think about quality and iteration, what most stresses me out, and the scariest moment of my life. This was so fun, and so special, and I hope you like it.We discuss:1. The collection of moments that led me to what I do now2. When I added a paywall, and how I knew it was working3. The hidden treadmill behind shipping a newsletter post and podcast episode every week4. The most stressful moments I’ve had in business and in life5. How I think about stress, consistency, and keeping the business small—Pre-order Charts for Babies: https://www.amazon.com/Charts-Babies-Picture-Book/dp/1419785184—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs: https://workos.com/lennyMetaview—The AI platform for recruiting: https://metaview.ai/lennyDX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: https://getdx.com/lenny—Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-i-built-a-1m-subscriber-newsletter—Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0—Where to find Michelle Rial:• X: https://x.com/TheRialMichelle• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellerial• Website: https://www.michellerial.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction and role reversal(04:06) What would Lenny be doing without the newsletter?(07:20) The moments that led to starting the newsletter(09:58) Does Lenny still enjoy the work?(12:42) Stress management and misophonia(14:00) The psychedelic trip that changed everything(15:45) Online happiness course and baseline optimization(17:30) Thunder round: Lenny’s misophonia worst sounds(20:20) What makes Michelle’s charts so shareable(23:55) Where chart ideas come from (and why meditation helps)(26:59) Where does “Lenny” come from?(28:54) Being recognized in public(31:24) Early projects(36:30) Michelle and Lenny’s yin and yang(37:49) Missing office culture (but not really)(39:37) Lenny’s face blindness(40:47) The $100M fraud attack story(42:50) Michelle’s childbirth emergency(47:22) Michelle’s creative process(51:58) Lenny’s favorite children’s books(54:00) Product management lessons in parenting(55:31) Defining product management in five words(58:23) Why Michelle pivoted to children’s books(01:01:30) The power of iteration and real experience—Resources and episode mentions: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-i-built-a-1m-subscriber-newsletter—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail]. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. This was as I was starting the newsletter and this phrase of, I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over. And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing. And that was for three hours. It gave me the confidence that like, okay, maybe I do you have things to share. What do you want to say to our mothers right now? Oh, no.

Do you want to take that back? You started your newsletter 2019 and it now has over a million subscribers. 1.2 million. 1.2. Something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from actual experience. You always say if you want to write, read. The source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real. At this point, most of my post are guest posts where somebody sharing the best thing they've learned in their career.

What do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter? On the struggle bus of startup life, probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined at some company. Does a PM? Do you still like it? I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting. but the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones Boulder is chasing me constantly. It's like this treadmill that you're on.

Tell me about time you've been really stressed in your business. Here's something I've never shared. Today, my guest is my brilliant, incredible wife, Michelle Rial, who turns the table and interviews me. I've had so many people over the years want me to be interviewed on this podcast, and what could be more fun than doing this with my wife? I share things during this conversation that I've never shared anywhere else, including some of the hardest moments from this journey.

I get a lot more personal than I've ever been on this podcast. Also, the day this podcast comes out just happens to be my wife's birthday, and she is also about to publish her third book, a children's book called Charts for Babies, which we chat briefly about, definitely pre-order it. This was so fun and so special. I hope you love it. Let's get into it. Here's a puzzle for you.

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candidates. Don't let your competitors out hire you. MetaView customers close roles 30% of you. percent faster. Try MetaView today for free and get an extra month of sourcing at MetaVu.aI-S-Lenny. That's M-E-T-A-Vue.A-I-S-Lenny. Michelle Rial, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. So what are we doing here? People constantly ask me to get interviewed myself. People are like, why don't you sit on the other side of the microphone and get interviewed? And I'm just like, nah,

I like interviewing. But you have a book coming out? And we thought this would be a fun opportunity to have you interview me. And so there's going to be your show. I'm just going to be here asking you whatever you want. I have no idea what you're going to ask me. And we'll see where it goes. And I'm going to ask you some questions about your book too. So I'll turn that over to you, Michelle.

What do you got? What do you got for me? Well, Lenny. Okay, babe. Yeah. Yeah. So you started your newsletter. 2019 and it now has over a million subscribers.

1.2 million. 1.2. Mm-hmm. And your podcast is very frequently one of the top 10, is that right? Yep. It's like right around, yeah. Yeah. Top 10 tech podcast.

Yeah. Yes. Hell yeah. I love it. When I met you, I think you were something called a product engineer. I was a software engineer. Let's see when you met me. No, I think it was a, I think it was still a software

I think you went from software engineer to product engineer to product manager. Yeah, yeah. And I'm wondering, what do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter? If I, like, stay to my job. Yeah, if you hadn't. And then that, I mean, I'll get to another question about what do you think is the one moment that led you to your newsletter. But you can answer either one. So is the question after I left Airbnb, what would I be doing?

Or is it like if I didn't quit? Just if you hadn't, or if you had gotten a different job, do you think you would have gotten a different job, stayed there? So when I left my job, I was at Airbnb for seven years. I had like plan A, start a company again. Plan B, join a startup as like their first PM. Plan C, join a big company as a PM. Plan D advise companies become a consultant kind of person.

Nowhere in that plan was like, do this crazy thing that I do now. I had a lot of startup ideas as I was exploring the startup ideas, as you remember, I was just like tinkering and prototyping and building stuff. And then on the side I was writing things that I learned and things I wanted to share. And you were just like, why are you writing? Why do you? You can't make money on the internet writing. You should be doing this thing that you're good at,

startups and building and tech and stuff like that. And I'm just like, I don't know. It seems like there's a poll here, so I'm just going to keep doing this. I don't know if I say things that you're good at. I just said, like, as a person putting writing on the internet, I don't make any money. money unless people buy my book. Yeah.

Plug. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess to answer your question, I'd probably find another company to start, and it probably would have failed, considering most startups fail. So I'd probably be in this like, oh, no, is this thing I think I should be doing. I'd be on the struggle bus of startup life probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined some company, I guess, as a PM.

So then I guess going back to that question of what do you think? Do you think there's a moment or a collection of moments that, led you to go full in on the newsletter or start the newsletter, start the medium post that led to the newsletter. Yeah, it was definitely a collection of moments. It's kind of this like a little journey that I just followed a poll that was starting to work and I'm just like, huh, maybe there's something here. So a few moments along that journey. One was the first thing I wrote on the end. This is like the first thing I wrote on the internet. Did very well. It was this post on what I learned at Airbnb. Like medium featured it. It went all over the place. Franceschi shared with the whole

company. So proud of what I shared. So that was a nice moment. moment of like, maybe I have something to share. And then I wrote a few more things on Medium at this point. And there is more of just like, hmm, this is working. People seem to like it. Then I had a conversation with this, with a friend Lee Jacobs, who's a VC now, because I was telling him, I don't know what I'm, I don't know why I'm doing this. Why am I writing? This is like not a future. I should be focusing on the startup. And he's just like, you seem to be enjoying it. People seem to be liking it, which is very rare the Venn diagram of things. Just like, how often do you enjoy something? and people value it.

And maybe there's a way to make money in the future. So his advice is just maybe pursue that and double down on that and maybe it'll go somewhere. So that was a moment. Another maybe big moment was nine months of doing the newsletter. So I decided I'm going to move to Substack. I'm going to write every week. I tweeted, I'm going to experiment with a newsletter, weekly newsletter, see how it goes. And so I did that every week for nine months.

And I just remember this moment nine months in where I was like, huh, I've been doing this every week for nine months, which means I could probably do this for nine more months. There's this, a Lindy effect. I don't know if you know this, but there's this concept of something being Lindy, which is, as long as it's been going for, it will most likely last at least that long in the future. So I thought that, okay, I could do this for at least probably another year. I have all these ideas and things I want to write about. So let me just keep doing this.

So that's when I decided to add the paywall and start charging and to see if I could make money doing this thing. Also in parallel, as you know, I was doing this based on the assumption that my Airbnb stock was going to be worth something and I could take this time to explore. And then COVID hit and Airbnb might have as like over RIP Airbnb over Twitter. And I was like, maybe I need to get a job for real. And so I'm like, I got to make money on this thing. Let me try. So that's when I started the paywall. And it worked.

That's like the other moment I think. I launched the paywall. And it worked. You know, I made meaningful dollars. like a month in. So speaking of Ben Diagram, he said, I'm good at it and I, and I, people like it. And people like it. Oh, and I like doing it.

You like doing it. That's a really good, because I didn't mention that. Okay. That's so true. That it's like, that's so important. Yeah. Yeah. I think Ike guy is like five things, right?

It's like a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah, but that's like it's a good point because it was just like people like it and I'm good at it. Mm-hmm. But without the actually enjoy it. I think you said I like, and I like it. I like it. Okay, cool.

Do you still like it? I do? in almost every way. Like, I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting, which is basically my job is to write about things that are interesting and share people's interesting insights and experiences and interview people and extract wisdom. It's just like so interesting.

It's my own thing, which makes it extra interesting. But I think a lot about this artist Finch wrote this blog post, How to Become an Artist. And at the top of his post, he's just like, You should not become a professional artist, most likely. Because once it's a thing you have to do, it changes it. You have to do it. So now I'm on this.

Like, this is the downside. But I just want to preface with saying this is incredible. And I can't imagine doing anything else that I enjoy more. But having to write a post or put out a post every single week and a podcast episode every week, you know, it's like this treadmill that you're on. So you have to kind of get used to that. That part is no fun. But again, I can't think of anything better that I could be doing.

And it kind of goes up and down. Sometimes, like, I love it. I'm so happy I get to write a thing every single week. And then some weeks I'm like, it'd be cool, though, to do it this week. But that's part of this life, you know. Because otherwise, you can't do this. You can't survive in this way if you're not doing something consistently and making it awesome every week.

So it's a part of it. So the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones Boulder is chasing me constantly. Because you put out something. like I have a post come out. What's today? We're recording on Wednesday. I had a post come out yesterday. And then it's like, what's next week?

All right, that's done. All that work you put into it over. It's coming out next week. And it's like every week. So the big question I don't have an answer to is where this all goes long term. Because someday, whether it's a seven years old or 100 years old or 60 years old, I don't know. Like maybe I won't be able to do this every single week. So I think about where does this all go.

I don't think there's an answer to like substack writer podcast life long term. Like what do you do? Like according to the Lindy, right? There you have. So 2019. Seven years. Seven years. Seven years. Seven years since the news live. Seven years. So I think, yeah. Good luck. Seven more years. Okay. So we got seven years. I can do that. Yeah. Okay. So speaking of the Boulder, you don't seem like a stressed out person and I don't see you as a stressed out person. Only like potty training. sleep, you tell their baby sleep stuff. Yeah. I don't see you as a stressed out person.

Do you think there's anything behind that? Do you think that's just you? And or are you just stressed? And it doesn't, you don't show it. I think there is an element of I am more stressed than I come across as and even recognize with myself. Like I get these headaches sometimes. I'm like, what is it going on?

Is that stress? Or is that something else? So I think there's a bit of, I'm probably more stressed than it looks like and that I even feel. But I think I'm probably less stressed than the average person. I think part of it is genetics. And then part of it is I work on it. Like I just have learned to adjust the way I think to reduce stress and to not take things seriously. But I think I think honestly it's probably like 70% genetics. I'm just like, it'll be all right. It'll be all right. As you know, something we argue about that'll be right. That's some like raw chicken. That'll be fine. That's fine.

So, okay, do you have any tools or any kind of like, I know, I've done different types of meditation? We've done breathing courses together. Yeah. Yeah. What do you have a favorite? Do you? Oh, to like calm down and de-stress. And you did, you did a 10-day silent meditation right before you ended up writing the post.

Mm-hmm. That's true. That's true. That was a big wisdom. Oh, here's something I've never shared. Okay. You asked about going back to the moments that led me to this life. So I went on a bachelor party trip.

with some friends. This isn't where you think it's going. I hope not. So there was a trip to Joshua Tree with a friend, and there was psychedelics involved on this trip. And I just remember, so we went to Joshua Tree. I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. And this was as I was starting the newsletter. And I just remember sitting there for probably three hours in this one spot. and I was just having this deep breathing happening and this like phrase of I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over and I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing and it's just like I have wisdom to share and that was for three hours

that made you write the post that made me feel like I can do this like it gave me the confidence that like hey, maybe I do you have things to share. Yeah, that was a really powerful moment just to give me confidence that there's something inside me that's like, oh yeah, maybe I could do this thing. So that was a big moment. What do you want to say, what do you want to say to our mothers right now? Oh, no. My mom doesn't, my mom doesn't know.

Do you want to crop it out? This is, okay, mom, I didn't. Anyway, I did some stuff. It's okay. It's time to share. And then, yeah, you've done meditate. You did 10 day meditation. you did a specific type of meditation that seemed to me to affect you in like physical ways.

Yeah. And then you told me once about a happiness course you took. Yeah. That was actually pretty transformative. I took this online course at University of Pennsylvania about the psychology of happiness. And it was basically all the science of what makes you happier and how to be happier. And that really had a big impact on me because it showed you you can increase your baseline level of happiness by doing a few things. And one of the things is just like thinking more positively, like thinking more optimistically.

There's also like gratitude stuff that I didn't find as useful. But there's just something about you can everyone's got this baseline. That was actually a big learning from that course is everyone's just kind of those baseline level of happiness. And you could be like at 100, you could be at zero, probably more most people in between somewhere. And like something amazing happens, you go way up in happiness and then you come back to that baseline. Something terrible happens. You go back to that baseline. and the main thing you can do is work on improving that baseline so that you come back to a higher

place. So that's what a lot of the work is and what you learn in that class. And one of the things is just be optimistic, just kind of have a positive outlook and don't let your mind kind of spiral into these like it's going to be terrible. So it was a lot of just like think more positively. And I feel like my baseline of level of happiness has gone up. And I think that it, yeah, I think you told me exercise too, like used to run. Yes, that was a really good insight. So exercise, the science. This was like, I don't know, 15 years ago, I'm guessing there's new research.

But the interesting thing there is exercise doesn't make you happier, but it brings you out of the negative. So you're negative one without exercise and exercise brings you to zero so that you're not depressed, basically. Speaking of stress. Okay, then I have a question for you. Oh, okay. Let's do this. Let's do this. Because I know on your podcast you have a lightning round.

Okay. We're going to do a thunder. round. Is that extra fast? What does that mean? No, it's sound. Your one thing that I think stresses you the most at times is your misophonia, which is, you want to explain what it is? Yeah, it's like, it's funny to talk about it, but it's this, it's like this disorder. It's like a real thing in the brain where I get bothered by certain sounds. And so I get very bothered by people eating with Okay, Thunder Round is going to be top five worst sounds. Or you can rank these sounds.

Okay, okay. You're going to give me the five. Like, like, best sound to worst sound. Okay. So like 10 is worst. Okay. What are the best sounds? Okay, what's, okay.

Okay, let's say chewing, chewing one to 10. Chewing like with the mouth open. Chewing with the worst. Yeah. I hate it. Ten is the worst. 10 is the worst. Yeah.

It's, you know, it's probably, it's in, yeah, it's 10, none or 10. Or like nails on a chalkboard, what's that? That's like less bad for me. Right. What's the number? Like if it's someone sitting right next to me, just like chomping away. Yeah. And it's so awkward to ask anyone to stop.

I hate doing that. It's like so weird. They're like, shut out. You're sweet. You're sweet. But it's just like, what? Yeah. I'm just sitting here eating.

Leave me alone. Yeah. That's how I feel whenever I do by accident near you. Yeah. So 10. So nails on a chalkboard. What's? It's like six.

I don't know. Five. What about, I don't mind this? What about like a baby crying or your, what's a baby crying versus your baby crying? Mm. Baby crying. Like, uh, so 10 is the worst. Yeah.

So like how loud? Like very loud. Like, like, like, in a newborn phase, like, like, didn't know what to do. Like, oh, yeah. That was really, like when, when Jude was born. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's pretty hard.

Thund around. Okay. Uh, like eight. Okay. Okay. What about like, um, when dude says, Papa? Yeah. One, one is the best.

Yeah. Is there any other sound, do you? Drew laughing? Okay. Okay. I love it. What about another bad sound? I don't know.

Okay. You can ask me now if you want. Okay. If you're getting stressed. No, no, no. Like, there's not that many bad sounds. It's just like very specific bad sounds that I'm just like. Basketball?

You know, if there's just like, if I'm trying to come, like be calm and there's like a bunch of commotion. Like, okay. Like a gas, you know, blower. Oh. Yeah, what I'm trying to work. That's, I think, a notorious one for people. Is that a 10th? It's like if it's super loud and right in my face, I would say, let's say, seven.

Okay. Not so bad. You can ask your question now if you want, or I have more for you. I'm going to ask you a question. So you make these incredible, genius, funny charts. There's one example on this book. So you have this first book here called, Am I Overthinking Miss, which a lot of people identify with, has sold many copies.

So you create all these charts that try to, synthesize things in life, things people experience, things people feel. A lot of these charts get shared on socials by people that steal your charts and just pretend like they made this or just found it and they cut out your attribution. They make pillows and mugs and there's like all these websites that sell all these charts you've made just like on swag that you get no credit for. I know it's bothered you a lot over the years. What makes your charts so shareable so widely? Why they go so viral so often. By the way, I stopped looking at that because it doesn't help me. Anyway, I think that's for the best. Well, I think like, what's the good? I think as your thing has

gotten more successful, it's like not as important to me. I do think it's interesting that they are often like detached from me, which is, I don't know why. But yeah, people want to get credit. When they do. And it's, I think I can figure out some of them, it's clear when I make it, whether it's like, I make it and then I let it sit and then some other, some like moment happens or I'm like, oh no, this is what it needs. And then I'm like, now it's, now I can feel that's really good. And usually it's like it's something that makes me laugh or cackle, even though I made it. It's like, like, it's like, oh, I've already seen this in my own brain and it's still funny to me or makes me kind of like tear up than I feel like, okay, I think people are going to like this.

I am often wrong. And sometimes too, like there are things, there's something from that book that I didn't share it all, but someone took a photo of it. That's how it went viral is like just a photo of a page of a book that people loved. Like it wasn't even like a digital high quality picture is just like some random photo, yeah. Yeah, which is interesting as well. And also people's attention spans, sometimes they're just what I like to make is things that are really simple and quick and show you something you haven't thought of before. And I think that if it's really easy to digest, people's attention spans are short. these days and if it makes them feel something is another thing. And it's also nice to make something

that isn't a lot of like physical labor because some things you can make and it can take you forever to draw out because my brain does work in this like overthinking kind of way of like this, but then oh this, people like it when it's really simple. Yeah. I love your point about like the way you know a chart is done is intrinsically you feeling like this is hilarious. This is, makes you laugh, makes you feel something. And that's similar to the way I think about my newsletter post. And more more than the newsletter than the podcast is it just, to me, it feels like this is like really interesting and really good. It's very like not waiting for other people to give you, you know, approval or feedback.

It's like, I feel this is good. And I think that's really interesting that that's similar to the way I approach my stuff. I find that when you work on your charts, you're like, you think so much. many levels deep. They're like, they're like so, they're like too clever sometimes. And I have to like, because to your point, people have a short attention span. Sometimes they're like too clever. And I have to like, okay, this is too many layers. You have to understand. And I have to like, that's a little much. You have to like simplify it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. You're my editor. Sometimes. I try, but you're like, no, you're like, I don't care. I don't care about your

feedback. You're usually probably right. Yeah. Okay. Let me ask you one more question. And then we could switch it around again. How do you come up with your ideas for your charts. You have so many, such variety. You had an adult book. You had a children's, and they have a children's book. You're working on like charts for parents. You have all this other stuff going on. Where do your ideas come from, Michelle? The ideas come from just living life and noticing, noticing a lot of things. And then also kind of observing a lot. I know that I've been really prolific when I've been meditating. And in meditation, you learn to kind of observe your own thinking. And if you're anxious about something like oh I'm that's funny that I was anxious about that random thing

that I've never thought about it that way before and which is interesting because it is kind of like overthinking every moment which meditation shouldn't be teaching you to do but that's what happens but I've noticed if I focus too much on my work I stop living life and then I stop having ideas and it's a little different with children's books which is what I'm working on right now because it's not like relatable things a little bit, but it's more children's concepts. But the adult stuff has to be just through living life. Noticing, yeah.

Yeah, noticing. Makes me think about anything David Sedaris had this story where he just has to say yes to everything he's invited to just because he needs to have experiences because he just has to keep pumping out stories. So he's just like, sure, let's go to Vegas right now. Let's do it. So I feel like that's a lot of the work here is just to live real life.

You can't just kind of sit there and come up with ideas. You have to try stuff and do crazy things. Yeah. So my first children's book, which is out soon, that one actually came out of kind of observing parenthood and early new parenthood moments. That's how I started. I started at the beginning of the notebook, writing, kind of like trying to make charts for new parents. But we'd been reading so many kids books together that I just.

just had this like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da, like rhythm in my head of children's books. And so what, I just turned to the back of the notebook and started writing more like children's book, involving chart. This is it the back of a notebook? Because you're working on a different book. And you're just like, in this notebook. Oh, this is the notebook? To put my questions in for you. Yeah. And so I started off in the front. I'm not going to show you.

So you started in the front on a different idea. I just started off in the front charts for new parents. And then I was like, got, you know, a few. in, you know, like a good amount in. And then I was just in the park, right? And then I kind of was just like, yeah, but I have always wanted to do these charts for kids or for babies. And I just kept wanting to write that.

So I started in the back and then I filled it up that way. I love that. This is another example of just following pull and not just doing the thing that you're doing. Just like, huh, this is pulling me in. I'm going to try it and just see where it goes. Look at this. What I call back. Okay, back to you, Michelle.

Back to you. Back to me. Back to you. Right to you. Right to you. Exactly. Okay. Okay.

So, tell me about, I do want to ask you this question, inspired by our friend who, like, reverse nicknames you and says, like, Leonard. Is your name, full name, Leonard? Where's Lenny come from? And by the way, reverse nickname, meaning they give you a nickname without you, like, asking them to you? Well, there's people who give you a nickname without you asking. Yeah. That's, yes. Yeah.

He gives you the full name. Oh, I see. makes it long. Yeah. It's not a thing. I'm just making it up. Okay. I like that. Okay. So the question is my real name. So when I moved to the U.S. from the Ukraine, which we recently chatted about on a podcast with Bors, which turned out to be a big, big news for people. Odessa. Yeah. My parents named me Leonid was my real official first name in the U.S. But they called me Lenny. Everyone called me Lenny. And so when we became citizens, you could change your name. And so my parents just changed it to Lenny.

So that's my real name. It's just Lenny. No Leonard. No Leo. Yeah. Oh, yeah, Leonardo. Just Lenny. Just Lenny.

Yeah. I love it. And Leonid, as in, it's a Russian name or there's also the like star constellation. Oh, the Leonids? I don't know. I think they just asked their friends just like, what is my Russian name is Lonia. And so I think they just like, what's the English version of that? And I'm guessing some of their friends are just like, Leonid.

I don't know if they named it after anything. specific. Can I share any of your nicknames? I'm going to assume no. What are my nicknames? Okay, go for it. I don't know what they are. Like L'Nchik? Okay, sure. I could share that? Sure. Do you like it? Yeah. People call you that? Well, it's like my family calls me that. Okay. Yeah, it's like a Russian little nickname. Grunchik. Yeah. And you, okay, but like strangers, can they call you that? Uh, no, don't call you that. Okay. And speaking of strangers, how do you feel when people approach you and, and is it weird at all? Like, like, does it remind you how big your newsletter has gotten? Or, like, do you like it? Do you like certain ways of approaching it? Yeah. So I guess what you're speaking to is when I walk around the Bay Area in

particular, people often recognize me, which is extremely weird and started with the podcast. Like, interestingly, I had the newsletter for four years. Yeah, you got to be like, you got to be stealth. Yeah, like my face was tiny on some Twitter profile. But once I started the podcast, people just yeah, it was like very weird the first time it started happening and then and now it happens quite a lot. I like it a lot. It's very cool. I really appreciate it. It makes me feel really nice. I am not bothered by it in any way. It always is very flattering. People are always so nice and just have endless nice things to say. I've never had a bad experience someone just trying to say hi to me. So please say hi. Okay. That's great. And I often ask people what's their favorite podcast episode or

favorite newsletter because I'm just curious. I always ask just like new founder, your product person, like, what's your story? Yeah. What about if you're in the middle of, if you're like at a coffee shop, you have headphones on and somebody says like, hey, or if you're like playing with your kid, what do you think? I think you're projecting about what you wouldn't want. Girl, yeah. People don't do that. I think people have been generally very conscious. You know, there could be a moment of just like, we're getting somewhere and I can't talk for too long and I don't want to be rude. Or you're like in a focus. Yeah. But but then, yeah. It hasn't been a problem yet.

Almost like 99% of people have been very considerate. Yeah. And I don't want people to feel like we can't just talk to me and say, no. That's cool. Yeah. That was so cool. I like that. Is there any like instance of delightful?

Like maybe the first time this happened, we live in Marin. And I was walking through San Anselmo with you, as you remember. And there's this guy in a little red car driving by with a son. He's driving by and we're on the sidewalk. And then he just yells, Ledy! I love your podcast! God. And this wasn't even in San Francisco. I was in San Enselmo.

And it was shocked. And then he just kept, he like held up traffic just to say hello. I'm like, oh my God. Yeah, I wouldn't do that. Yeah, probably wouldn't do that. And then I met him later. He runs a hamburger club in Marin. He's very cool.

Because I saw him again at another coffee shop. So that was quite delightful. I love that. Okay. You just said something. Okay. People coming up to you. Okay, you're going to have to cut this.

See, no, we're not going to cut it because this is what I go through too. As a podcast interviewer. I thought of something I lost it. This is what I'm constantly dealing with. That is a challenge of the interviewer. And I think it's fun for people to see because you're like, okay, I have to think about what's I'm going to say next. And then you're like, they're like, oh, shit, what's going to be? So that's why when I do the podcast, I'm secretly writing notes to myself constantly.

So, check your notes. Yeah, well, okay, I close me. Okay, I should have written it down. Let's talk about, like, thinking back to what, what kind of hints that you would start this newsletter or, like, things that you worked on when you were younger that are mildly adjacent or, like, you know, because you had some, what? Like, some websites. You had atheist bot. You had, like, you had some. Utorials.

Utorials. That's one. So the question is like, what are the things I did earlier that helped me with the work I do you know? Or yeah, just because just looking back like anything that that is kind of like makes it obvious that you would have started this newsletter or like a little more. I don't think there's anything that would have pointed me or anybody to this being the thing that I do now. It's completely unexpected personally and I don't think anyone saw coming. I had never written anything online before I started writing. I was always not like, hey, look at me.

I've got all the answers. and I have all his wisdom to share is always like, I'm an introvert, I'd like to kind of stay behind the scenes. So it's a very unexpected path for me. And part of the reason I think I was able to do it is the newsletter started during COVID, so I could just sit there and type it, put stuff out online. I didn't have to go anywhere and like, hell everyone, I could stay like in my little hole.

But just to follow through on these things you pointed out that I did earlier, because I don't think I've ever talked about these things. I had all these different side projects before. Like through college, I guess. Yeah, through college. I was like a very big atheist, and I'm still an atheist, Jewish atheist, which is many Jews. But I was like very into it before, and I'm like, okay, I don't care, whatever. Believe it, it you're on.

So I used to run a website called The AtheistSpot.com, which was Reddit for Atheist News, which is not a, you know, Reddit is that. It's fine. You don't need it. But I went to, like, there's like conventions. We went to atheist convention. So I did that. And the funny thing is that was the during AdWords, when Google AdWords was a way to monetize your site.

And so all the ads on the site, because most of the articles were about religion, were all these religious dating sites. So it's like Christian Mingle and like all these funny dating sites that didn't make sense for the audience. So I always thought that was funny. And then I worked with a friend on this other project called Utorials, which was so ahead of its time. The idea was tutorials, tutorials for you by you. Nice. And so it was people contributing things they've learned and writing a how-to,

like how to make eggs, how to take a quick shower. And it's all these... That's like TikTok, right? It's like TikTok. It was before Wikipedia, I think. No, I know, yeah. Yeah, it's like YouTube. It's like, yeah.

That's like what I watched TikTok for is like watching people make... Yeah, and parenting advice and things to be afraid of. Yeah. And dance videos, yeah. So it was... That's what your thing was or that's what TikTok is. That's what TikTok is, right? Yeah. So yeah, I was really proud of that.

Yeah. It sounds like it was ahead of it. And we paid people. And local mine was ahead of its time. And local mine. So that was my startup. We sold it to Airbnb. That's how I got there. Local mine, amazing idea and not something anyone needs really. Hmm. I still need it. I still need it. Like you need it once in a while. So just to briefly explain what that is, it was an app that sat on top of four square and goala when that was very cool and allowed you to ask questions of people checked in. anywhere in the world. So if you're like, is there a long line at the mill, which is near here? Should I go? Is there a long line? What's like the special? We just used that basically. Yeah. We use.

So Google does it with their like is a busy. Yeah. Like, you know, all these other ways that you could saw this problem. It was very cool. It was amazing. Nobody needs it really. If there's still things you want to ask. You need like once in a while. You need like once a quarter. Yeah. And it's holy shit. That's so good. But you know, you can't make a business out of that. So I'm glad that we

we exited. Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly. But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, booking.com, adion, and intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is

providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdX.com slash Lenny. That's getdX.com slash Lenny. Okay, so you're mentioning the Atheist bot with a bunch of religious dating sites. Yeah. Reminded me that you were my first online date ever. Hell yeah. Snatched right off.

Yeah. So how about we? And I remember that, I mean, you had had other dates. Where's this going? Anyway, no. But I remember you were like, had, see, I think you had a thing for designers. Yeah. And I wonder if you regret that preference.

Like designer artist sort of like. No, not at all. Stereotype. No, no. Like I'm not. Like, you're pretty neat. Yeah, yeah, it's true. You're kind of chaotic.

Yeah. Which is, we can talk about your process. but it's like it's a messy process. It's true. You know, we have a good yin-yang. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like you're unstressed, unbothered. I'm bothered. Yeah. I'm stressed. Yeah. We get cleaners. They help things out.

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. You know. It's worth it. Okay. So you're okay with designers still. Good.

And then. As like white. Yeah. I highly recommend. Okay. Yeah. Great. So yeah.

I was going to ask like, do you have any tips for, Because it's like, it's, you know, there's something you said recently, which is like, you don't have any co-workers. I was like, I'm a co-worker. We work at home. But yeah, do you feel, do you ever feel like lonely? Because you were always really social. And then this goes into two, like, even before you were niche famous or whatever we want to call it. People were always coming up to you on the street, like, lay. You know? Yeah, from Airbnb. Because you're organizing things. And do you feel like you miss office culture? I have people asked me that over the years and I've always like no it's amazing I don't need that like I just do my own thing and I don't need people around but I've kind of started to feel that a little bit and I'm just like huh there's no one like I just sit at home all day and just like our dog likes to be right next to you yeah yeah he's sweet yeah so I do feel like I do miss it now it's not like a huge problem but it's just like you know it'd be cool to just jam with someone on stuff and I have a team and I have you and Twitter and like Well, you like to go to coffee shops. I like to go to coffee. What do you get? But it's like bowling alone kind of, I don't know. It's like, is that the good metaphor?

And you have your head. You put your headphones on. Yeah. And you're focused. So it's like. Yeah. So it would be fun. Like I have an awesome team and we jam on stuff.

But it's not like, like I think there's a, I do miss having someone next to me that I'm just working with on the same thing. But I also am trying very hard to never have full-time employees. I'm trying to keep things really simple because it's so easy to build this thing into like this whole thing that's complicated. that I'm like, what have I done? One of the challenges with this life is you can create a job for yourself that you hate by doing things that people want you to do or by following opportunities that feel big. And then you're like, I hate this. So I'm trying to be really careful about what I

commit to you and do. Coming back to your question, I do miss it some. Yeah. It's like a new thing I've realized that I miss is being around other people, like working on the same thing. Yeah. So speaking of other people like coming up to you and being around other people, I think it's become harder for you now that, now that people you don't know come up to you because I think you actually have a little bit of face blindness. Absolutely. So people who do know you come up to you and you're like, and you're like waiting to know if they just listen to your podcast or if you.

Like I know if I know that. Yeah. Yeah. This is a big problem for me. Yeah. It's like another brain disorder, I guess. Where I just don't remember people's names. I'm so bad at it.

So I just like, I know you. who are you? It's like people texting you from a new number. I'm like, who is this? Yeah, sometimes I feel like the Devil Wars Prada assistant where I'm like, that's Emily. You worked with her and Airbnb or that's not. You don't do that.

You need to do that. I do it sometimes. You do that sometimes. Yeah. So bad at that. Okay. So if you come up to me and you say hello and I don't recognize you, please, sorry.

I'm really bad at it. And yeah, it's like gotten worse because now I know more people through the podcast and the newsletter and like. Right. And you just know a lot of people. Yeah, it's like a lot of faces. You're very kind.

I try. I try. I try. Okay. So going back to the like unbothered vibe that you have, tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business and then a time you've been really stressed in your personal life. Okay. So on the business side, so I have this product pass. So as a subscriber to my newsletter, you get 23 incredible products.

And I used to read them all. linear, mob and lovable replet, gamma. I stopped doing this because there's too many. Now I had the end of my podcast. I just read through all. And now I can't do it anymore. There's too many. I had a launch about a year ago.

It's about a year, actually, where I launched. You get a free year of cursor and lovable and bolt and replet and V0. I think that's five. And so that was way too good at offer. People came for it. Bad people. So I just had so many fraudsters, mostly in China, it turned out, just like all these fraud rings in China, trying to find ways to steal all these free goodies. So they set up all these crazy attacks, and I had to work with Stripe and Substack to just, like, shut them down.

And they just found all these little exploits in our API that we built. And like this, so it was like such a nightmare because we're just like waking up to like every night. It was like hard to sleep and I have this engineer, Esté, who's so incredible and he, like, didn't sleep for a week, stopping, filling all these holes because there's a lot of smart, clever bad guys out there. So that was extremely stressful. Like, it could trickle down into the whole thing falling apart of everyone's like, oh, my God, can't trust Lenny anymore. So as you remember, it's very stressful. I didn't sleep too well. And it was, like, very scary.

And there's all these, they just kept popping up. And there's all these, like, rings. And it went viral in China, too. That's like in the student network. They just, oh, shit. You get a year free of cursor and lovable and replant and bolt and V-0. So it was very stressful. To answer your question on the personal side.

Okay. So when our baby was born, the birth was very complicated. You had to get a C-section because the induction wasn't getting it there because, yeah, it was complicated. complicated. And normally I feel like I would tell the story, but... You weren't awake. But this is also like a, when Harry met Sally, but it's like how the pregnant person almost died. You know? But, okay, but it's from your perspective because I didn't get to experience it. Right. So.

Yeah. So what happened is we had to do a Cessarian. They gave you an ass, and so the ideas, they bring you into the operating room. They do the anesthetic. the epidural or whatever it's called, and then they let the husband and the partner in. And so I was waiting in the hall, waiting for them to do the anesthetic. With your scrubs. They gave me a whole bunny suit.

Yeah, super sterile, just standing there in this bunny suit thing. And the idea is they do the anesthetic and I can come in and then watch the birth and all that stuff. And five, ten minutes in, I just hear, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

And the doctor runs out, scrub their hands, runs back in. and then all of the two other people run from another room down the hall into the room and they were like uh oh uh oh and I was like scared you were I was very scared

because I had no idea what was going on that didn't sound good nobody told you anything nobody's telling me anything that's supposed to be in there no one's coming out like here's what's happening and it was like 10 minutes of just nothing yeah and you were supposed to be in there after like a minute

yeah it's going to be quick yeah yeah I was supposed to be like, come on in. We're going to do this here, you know? And like you're awake during it, you know, into real life. So I just remember pacing down the hall, using, coming back to the lessons I've learned, just like, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay.

That's what I remember saying to myself. Just kind of trust that they know what they're doing, you know. We're in a hospital. There's a lot of doctors around. And then eventually they came back and they just said that the epidural went the wrong direction and said instead of going down, and went up your body and so it was stopping your heart and lungs and they had to intubate you

and do an emergency intubation and get the baby out and then took like an hour for you to come back. They were going to put you in ICU to help you come back. So that was very scary because you weren't there. I don't know what's going on. And you got to hold the baby for like an hour. Yeah. So that's why he's like a, he's like only papa. He's another person that that, that person.

that prefers you. Who's the other person? Our dog. You know, for now, for now. You know, you're a sweet, sweet guy. But yeah, it's, uh. Yeah, that was really scary. It's stressful.

Yeah, because it's like such a, yeah. That was the thing to help. But it was like very scary because it's just like, life could be completely different now. Like something like, you know, like you could have, like the guy that anesthesiologist said it was a 1 in 50,000 chance. And it's like the worst scenario that is very rare.

and very dangerous. And so it was extremely scary. And luckily he did a great job. And everyone's like, he killed it. He knew exactly what to do. He handled it really well. Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't have any memory. You don't remember this. Yeah. It numbed my lungs. And I was like, I can't breathe. And then I numbed my spinal. What is it? Brain stem.

And then I passed out. How about that? How about that? I didn't have to get to have any. Yeah. How does it, looking back, are you... We don't have to talk about it. Okay.

Like, no, yeah, it's, that's what you said, but it's interesting to, like, not have an experience around it. And the experience was, like, the live experience is more. Yeah, it's probably the scariest moment in my life. Yeah, and I didn't, I wasn't, I didn't know anything about it because they put me under general anesthesia and then I was all loopy. And then I didn't even know really what, and then later I read the report, like a month's later, I read it.

I actually had someone else read it who was in the field. and she's like, it was your cousin Lois, and she, like, moved her thick glasses like, wow. Yeah, she's like a nurse back in a day. Anyway, stressful moment. Yeah, so you used your tools. Yeah, I used my tools. Otherwise, you know, that's a good point because it could have been like spiral. Yeah, and our, we had a doula, but she had left.

The dula was going to be there, yeah. But for Cessarian, she's like, it can't be here. Yeah. Okay, I want to ask you a question, but unless you have something, we want to follow up. No, no. Okay. So you come up with these incredible charts. They're just like, you know, it's like the kind of charts you see on the internet that are like, oh my God, that's so genius.

And watching you come up with it is so wild because you just, you just like pops out of nowhere. And then there's like a little bit of iteration. I'm like, that's it. What's the process for you coming up with a chart? And what's like the environment that you need to create your best work? I feel like coffee is a big part of it. Coffee is like not too much. There's one I have that it's like, I mean, it has to be the perfect amount of coffee.

so I actually usually get a single shot. Do you know about the bomber peak, by the way, quick tangent? Okay. Okay. So there's a concept called the bomber peak. Yeah. From XKCD, which is just the right amount of alcohol where you're the most insightful and creative. And then it falls down, which is like, I don't know.

I forget why this is Steve bomber related. But, okay, so the bomber peak of coffee. I have one like that about coffee, but it's not. It's made out of a little coffee straw and it's like. We're going to show this on YouTube if you're watching this so you can see the chart. It's like, I'm a genius. And then I'm having a panic attack. And so that's.

me is like, yeah, I'll get to this point where I feel like, I mean, coffee is a drug, right? So if I have too much, it is like a drug and I'm, I feel like a genius and I'm like having all these ideas. But then I think it's, it's too, like, I don't know if this was a real image, but there was an image of spider webs. And it's like, this is a spider web that ingested some. Right. LSD and stuff. And I don't know. Yeah. And then this is this that had spider that had coffee. And it's like, instead of a regular web, it's like a web that goes like this. Like it's like just erratic and tangential. And I have some some really good ideas, some really good like seeds of ideas in those moments.

Then I have to go like scream into a pillow or something. Was that when you have too much coffee? That's when I have too much coffee. But if there's a point like right before that. So single shot latte. Single shot is what I get. Single shot latte. At least an hour, sometimes it's good to have like somewhere I have to be.

It's a time limit. And then I'm kind of like I feel like a machine. It's like trying really hard to get somewhere. And then the other thing is just like a lot of it is writing something down as I'm out in the world. And then trying to put it on paper in a way that visualizes it because I'm not strong at drawing. And yeah, when I was a kid, my dad did a lot of math with me and a lot of like, you know, fractals and visualization and patterns. and so I sort of think that way, like mathematically kind of. Yeah, so it helps me to visualize an idea that in the simplest way possible.

Let me just say this is very cool that we're doing this. This is like really fun. So sweet. Oh. Yeah, this is like really nice. Yeah. This is our Odessa moment. Yeah.

You're born in Odessa too? No. No, but one of my questions was like, I don't know. this would be like if I were in the audience it would be more like a comment versus a question we're going to think pretending to be a question yeah we're both uh our families are both from countries that like mine from Venezuela you're from Ukraine where people are always like oh

does that like like we didn't just arrive right from Venezuela or Ukraine so it's like not yeah the same yeah so we have to like almost make them be okay like it's okay I mean so my family still lives in Venezuela but okay so I asked you a question okay Oh. That's back to you. Okay. Great.

Yeah. No, okay. Let me reflect back what you said. Because this is really interesting. So a single shot, so it's like some kind of like neuro stimulation. I don't know. Single shot, just enough. I like this deadline piece.

That was really interesting. It's like not too much time, not like not 30 minutes. Although that can be why I'm late often as I'm like, I just, I've almost got it. I just, you know. I'm the time optimist, as you know, that I'm like, oh, I get. I think I have it. But a good time is like two hours and then I have to be somewhere in two hours. Interesting. Okay. So those are two elements. And then was there another for optimal creativity? Oh, a good night of sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you have the bad night of sleep plus too much caffeine,

then you don't have any, you know, you have no ideas. You just have the like frantic piece of the caffeine, the like mental energy. Anything else? This is really interesting, I think, just the idea of what is, what creates creativity? Just like experiences. Experiences and thinking and almost like thinking too much about them. Thinking, I like that. Maybe overthinking. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Back to you, Michelle Rial. Oh, too. Back to me to you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we did the Thunder Round. We did the, the, the, the worst things to hear. Okay. And the best sounds, which your sons laugh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Do you, okay, we, okay, we. We probably know your favorite, like, product management books. Do you have a favorite children's book other than mine? To read to. Charts for babies.

And also, like, and also, maybe you could, you could do more than one because, you know, they like, maybe there's one when it's a baby. Like, I feel like a chart is, and you never take my ideas because I feel like you don't want to. I don't want it to be your ideas. Yeah. But I feel like there's books you love that are children's books and books your kid loves. Yeah. Right? And it's like, I hate reading this one, but he loves it.

So we're going to do it. Yeah. So it's like, he decides what his favorite are. I love John Classen books. They're so, like, beautiful and just, like, sweet. So those have been really great. Are they sweet? They're, like, actually not sweet.

You're right. There's, like death and all of them. Yeah. Yeah, they all end in death. Yeah, like, dude's new thing. He's like, he ate the bunny? This is the bear, the bear book? Yeah.

Like, he stole my hat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like, we started the book, and he's like, he ate the bunny? Where's the bunny? Like in his belly. But is, yeah, is there any, like, overlap?

You think there's a favorite that, that one is, that's his favorite that you now love because that you didn't love initially? Yeah, like Dr. Seuss, I think we've similarly, really, feel. It's like way too long as one. Because there's like 50 pages, 60 pages. Like, come on. Yeah, it's a lot of words. And there's just like, all these made up animals. And he's like, what's a zong?

Yeah. Like, there. That's a zon. You're like trying to teach them real things in the world. And then he's like, what was that? Tale of a song? Like, what? Vipper from Vip?

Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't like that. But we like reading them. We've kind of used.

Yeah, there's like a rhythm. Well, like anything in Spanish, I read to him, obviously. And yeah, I mean, anything you want to say about, like, I don't know, is there any sort of like product, anything you've learned in product management or, like, growth that has translated to parenting. You know, like product management is all about influence and that's basically parenting. That's why he likes you better. Why? Because I can influence. But you also have to make him do stuff, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They're like, you do have authority. You know, all the responsibility without the authority, but you do have authority. So it's easier. They have the authority. They have the authority. That's true.

That's true. Just like, no. You sit there. Yeah. I feel like I see your product management in that like you make him, Like, I should be the one making him a chart, but you make him like the, like, here's how, if bedtime gets too long, you're like, here's how bedtime's going to go. We're going to read you three books. You get a star. And then also, I'm answering for you. Sorry. Go on. Other things where it's like, things where it's where I'm kind of like, yeah, it just happens the way it's happened.

You're like, no, I read a book on it. I read three books on it. And this is how we're going to do it. And that's going to work. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it does it. Right. Yeah.

I'm not like an intuition. guy. I'm just like, what have the smartest people figured out about this? This isn't the first time somebody has tried to shorten bedtime. Right. Shorten bedtime, sleep through the night. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's like, yeah, there's like smart people that have tried this stuff before. Yeah. And can tell me what they've done. Small eye roll. And okay, so I guess this is, I think my last question for you. And I don't know if you want to answer it, but like I, as your wife, uh, uh, however many years like 10. Still, I don't think I know what product management is. Can you tell me in five words? That's hilarious. Okay. I will, my words are impact, collaboration, judgment, alignment.

And this is a really good question. And it's almost like the order is like how you think about product management. Like, you know, it's like the order you put them in. And what else? I'll just say some. stuff because it's really interesting. Coordination. I think that's five. Organizing. Planning. Okay.

Outcomes. I am just tuned out. There's so many. It's like, shut up. So boring. And I'm just like, what should have I said? That's what I'm going to think about now. But it's, yeah, it's like a crazy weird job, all these different things.

Yeah. Now I'm just like snifed out when I keep thinking. Yeah. I'll give you my definition of product management. Yeah, but you can't say mini CEO. No, I'm a mini CEO. that's not cool. Okay.

Although I actually do think PM is a mini-CO. Like I think people keep saying you're not, but I think you are. Yeah. You can't say like not a project manager. Yeah. Not a project manager. That's right. I think the way I describe it is your job as a product manager is to deliver business impact

by prioritizing and solving the most impactful business problems. Something like that. That's many words. Yeah. You're like, this is why I never know what it is. It's so boring. What are you been talking about? Cool.

Like this comes back to the mini-CO thing just to close that thread. I feel like the PM on the team is basically, should be thinking the way the CEO thinks. You know, like their job is to think, what would the CEO do on this specific product or feature? Because the CEO's job is make this successful, make this business grow. And so your job as a PM is to kind of channel that

what will allow this team and product to help the business be more successful. Do you feel like you're doing that as the, I guess you are. I'm everything, you know, like in my current world, right? You're editor-in-chief, too. Editor-in-chief, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But I have a copy editor. I have an editor, so I've helped. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. People ask me what about product management help me do the job I do now. I don't think there's anything, to be honest,

except just like things I was already into, which is just being very organized, having a very high bar for quality, communicating. Like, I think communication maybe is just like how to succinctly communicate points so that people grasp them. That's like... Whoa. Look at this. We're the same.

Introducing. The Kia is just communicating something simply. Wow. Well, let me ask you one more question. So maybe it's to close. You wrote two adult books. You now did a children's book. Why the pivot to children's books?

Why did you decide to do a children's book? I wanted to do a children's book based on the first. adult book because I thought that charts are so, they're like a ton of early learning concepts put together. So if you look at children's books, there, you know, the themes are often opposites, colors, shapes, feelings. And then I just, I was thinking like you can really, you can really teach a lot from a chart and it's so simple. So it's a lot, it's a lot of opposites. It's big and Well, it's, it's, uh, you've got going up and going down. You've got overlapping colors becoming another color.

You've got, you can make a lot of feelings with, with charts. That's the second book in this series that, that I'm. It's coming out next year. Yeah, but we, but yeah, I finished it, but it's, you know, it still takes about a year to come out after that. But yeah, it's, it was this like, I wanted to work on it in abstract. Like, I had, I had the thought of wanting to work on it, but it didn't come until I started trying to work on another adult book that I really just had all these rhymes in my, like, it was more like a cadence. I had just like this like da-da-da-da-da, you know, in my head.

And yeah, I just tried it. And it came really quickly, the first draft. And yeah, and it also, yeah, I always wanted to make one because as a little girl, my dad wanted me to, he was a geophysicist. He wanted me to be strong at math. He was like, you know, because at the time it was kind of like girls, weren't encouraged necessarily to be good at math. So he, from just like a young age, he was always showing me, I do the same with our son too, like always showing him patterns and like, oh, if you flip it, it's like that. And it's just really fun for me.

And it's cool to writing the first one with like our son growing up, learning from experience. Like I was saying, like having the experiences of him as a baby and like how I'm learning how to teach him things. Then he gets a little older. And then that helped me work on the, the feelings. And I've also learned how to speak to kids as well when I didn't have any. I was like, I don't know what to say to you. And now it feels more natural. And so I had a children's book

that I tried to write before I had kids. And for me, that one wasn't as good. And so I feel like I gained a little bit of just like how to talk to child. That's a really good like segue or not segue. I don't know. Connection to something that we've talked about a few times is the best. stuff comes from like actual experience. Like, because you had a children's book, like you just said, that you wrote before you had shoot and then it wasn't good. And now having the experience, you can actually make something great. Yeah.

And then also, like, another thing I thought about was just reading so many children's books. People always say if you want to write, read. And yeah, we read a lot. We read still a lot of, a lot of books. And it just got me in that zone, too. Yeah. It just makes me think about something I think has been key to. my newsletter success is it is based on like real life doing the thing. Like at this point,

most of my post are guest posts where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career, like the one thing they want to share, which I love. And it all comes from something I focus a lot on is from people on the ground doing the thing, not just floating the clouds, pontificating. And that's the source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real, you know, not just pontificating. It's just, I think that's a really good maybe one take ways just the best stuff comes from doing the thing and then sharing your advice versus just thinking, you know what you're doing. And communicating it.

Simply. Simply. And just like refining. You don't even get into just all the work that goes into refining. And then, yeah, you always talk about like me. Yeah. And another thing I do is like I often make, it's stressful because I make things and I am not sure if they're good enough yet.

And I put them to the side. And then I come back and I might have an idea, knowing that it's already in my head, I might have an idea like, oh, yeah, that's what's going to make that better. or I go to work on it again and some other thing adds to it. But then as you've set it aside, then you see something else. You see something in the world like, oh, shoot, somebody beat me to that thing. I didn't ever do anything with. So that's stressful to like, to like have something sitting.

Like with, maybe with your podcast. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this and I'll answer for myself. How many iterations do you do on a chart on average? Like, how many times do you like edit it and refine it? Uh, depends. Yeah. What's like the median?

At least five. Okay. Like for me, I think it's like 60. I was going to say 100. Okay. That's probably the real answer. But I can't even physically do that. It's like I need, yeah.

Yeah. It's just like. Well, what do you mean by? So like when I read a newsletter post, I go through it probably, let's say 50 times, making it better. Like I start. There's like something that's the beginnings and then read through it and add to it. Read through it, add to it.

Improve, improve, improve, improve. Like 50 times. And then I have my editor go through it. it and they have a copy editor go through it and a designer help me. You don't do that with your emails, though. I, no. I should. I do do that with my emails, which it should be.

I shouldn't be doing that. I see. You do? Okay. I used to. I used to. But no, I do. Yeah.

Anyway. Yeah. Anything else? Oh, I mean, yeah. Let me, do you put, do you want to plug? Absolutely. When is it coming out? April 7th.

April 7th. It's like a few weeks, I think, from when this comes out. Assuming this comes out. Yeah. We'll see how it turns off. We're going to check it. out. We'll check it out. If you're seeing this, we checked it out. Yeah. It was a success. It was okay. So charts for babies coming out, April 7th. April 7th. All your favorite retailers. Yep.

Local bookstores. Wherever you buy your bookstores. What's the age range of kids? It's two to four. It's called for babies. I did do it a tart recently about like how long is your baby a baby? And it, yeah, it's like, baby is this. Infant is like one to two. And then it's like, it's your baby infinity. Yeah. So I've noticed like we still call him the, not really anymore, but it's like the baby. Oh, for sure.

Yeah. But he's like almost three. And so yeah, it could be like, I would say zero to four or, and yeah, you know what? Should I grab it? Yeah. Let's grab it.

Let's just break the frame. People on the recording hit, but the first like the end paper is what this is called. It shows all the like things you can learn. Sizes, shapes, lines, numbers, directions, feelings, colors, mounts, sharing concepts, relationships, opposites. Anyway, I'm not good at self-promotion, clearly.

So I'll stop it. Yeah, it's a lot of learning. It's beautiful. It's hilarious. It's clever. It's... Early learning concepts. Funny.

Anyway. It's simply illustrated. It rhyming. Will you do it. Yeah. spend more time on it. Spend more time. Vlad. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. All good. Were you done? Michelle, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'll ask you my typical questions that ask at the end. How can, where do people find you online? How can listeners be useful to you?

My website, Michellereal.com, r-a-l, or I'm also on Instagram. Not too much these days, but still a little bit. You can look for the book, charts for babies. Yeah. I don't know when this will be out. You can either pre-order it or order it. Great. One of the, yeah. Parantheses pre, but order. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle, thanks for me here. And I hope you like it. And thank you. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. I know you have a high bar. Absolutely. You hit it.

Okay. Great. And yeah, I hope you were okay with the interview. A plus. It's going to do numbers. All right. Let's get out of here. Okay, bye, everyone.

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