Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford GSB professor, “Touchy Feely”)

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

Carole Robin spent over 20 years teaching the Stanford Graduate School of Business course Interpersonal Dynamics, affectionately known as “Touchy Feely.” After leaving Stanford, she founded a nonprofit called Leaders in Tech, which applies the Touchy Feely principles to help Silicon Valley executives build their leadership and interpersonal skills. Carole co-authored the popular book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues, which shares key insights from her decades of teaching these courses. In our conversation, we discuss:• The benefits of building robust relationships, in life and work• The 15% rule, and how it will help you build better relationships• The power of vulnerability• Examples of how to practice vulnerability• Why mental models you build early in life hold you back later• The “three realities” and “the net”• The art of inquiry• Practical tips for avoiding defensiveness when getting feedback• The impact of long Covid on Carole’s life—Brought to you by:• Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments• CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users• The a16z Podcast—Featuring conversations with the founders and technologists shaping our future—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin—Where to find Carole Robin:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carole-robin/• Email: [e-mail]—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Carole’s background(05:17) The importance of building robust relationships(10:20) The “Touchy Feely” course at Stanford(13:29) An example of the in-class experience(17:19) Leaders in Tech: developing interpersonal competence(21:36) Progressive disclosure and the 15% rule(24:28) Appropriate disclosure(26:52) The power of vulnerability(34:57) Admitting mistakes and sharing feelings(37:08) Understanding mental models(42:57) The “three realities” framework(53:52) The power of feedback and personal change(58:47) The art of inquiry(01:03:27) How to get better at giving feedback(01:07:47) Exercises and continued learning(01:10:49) “Advice hinders relationships”(01:16:49) Failure corner: AFOG(01:20:30) Takeaways(01:21:51) Lessons from long Covid—Referenced:• How to Build Better Relationships: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/how-build-better-relationships• Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues: https://www.amazon.com/Connect-Building-Exceptional-Relationships-Colleagues-ebook/dp/B0894279WZ• Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/• Leaders in Tech Fellows: https://leadersintech.org/learnaboutfellows• Steve Jobs: https://www.forbes.com/profile/steve-jobs/• Sheryl Sandberg on X: https://twitter.com/sherylsandberg• Ursula Burns: https://www.forbes.com/profile/ursula-burns/• Application for Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/programs-and-applications• Vygotsky’s Zone of Proximal Development and Scaffolding Theory: https://www.simplypsychology.org/zone-of-proximal-development.html• The Best Leaders Aren’t Afraid to Be Vulnerable: https://hbr.org/2022/07/the-best-leaders-arent-afraid-of-being-vulnerable• The Surprising Benefits of Admitting Mistakes: 5 Ways to Build Intellectual Humility: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tracybrower/2021/12/29/the-surprising-benefits-of-admitting-mistakes-5-ways-to-build-intellectual-humility/• How to Build Conflict Skills—The Pinch/Crunch Model: https://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahart/2023/12/15/how-to-build-conflict-skills-the-pinchcrunch-model/• Slides mentioned (The Three Realities Framework | The 15% Rule | Feedback Guidelines): https://www.notion.so/pen-name/Carole-Robin-on-Lenny-s-Podcast-dc7159208e4242428f4b11ebc92285eb• Mindset: The New Psychology of Success: https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0345472322• Management Time: Who’s Got the Monkey?: https://hbr.org/1999/11/management-time-whos-got-the-monkey• Long COVID: major findings, mechanisms and recommendations: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2• Leadership, acceptance, and self-management: my journey with long COVID: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/leadership-acceptance-self-management-my-journey-long-carole-robin/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Many people told you your class at Stanford, made them feel like their entire college tuition was worth it. Even more rewarding for me are the, I'm pretty sure your class just saved my marriage. I want to talk about how to give feedback well. I feel that you don't care and I feel you're being insensitive are not feelings. And that's where we make our biggest mistakes when it comes to feedback. How do you avoid people getting defensive? Questions that start with, what, when we're how, stay away from why. I think it might be helpful to talk about this concept that you call the three realities.

We don't understand that we are only privy to two out of the three. So I know what's going on for me and I know what I did. I have no idea what happened on your end. That's a really profound point that anger is a secondary emotion. Really, what's going on is you're afraid or you're hurt. What a disservice to not help people understand that anger is a distancing emotion and there are other emotions that are connecting. Today, my guest is Carol Robin.

For over 20 years, Carol taught the legendary course at Stanford's Graduate School of Business nicknamed Touchy-Feeley, technically called interpersonal dynamics, which helps people learn how to build strong relationships and become much more effective leaders. She then went on to start a nonprofit called Leaders in Tech, which brings these same lessons to leaders of high-tech growth companies, and she also wrote an incredibly impactful book called Connect, which distills all the key insights and lessons from her decades running this course.

I've had so many friends go through the Stanford course or the Leaders in Tech program, and every single one of them was transformed in terms of how they relate to other people, how they communicate, and how they lead. In my conversation with Carol, we talk about why we're often trapped in mental models that we formed when we were younger and how they now limit us and limit our potential and our ways of seeing the world. Why disclosing 15% more than you naturally feel comfortable will make you a more effective leader? Why there are actually three realities around us at all times and how that insight changes the way

you relate to people. We also get into how to give feedback to anyone about anything, why vulnerability is so essential to great leadership, how to build exceptional relationships, and why they're so important, and so much more. This is a very special and very unique episode, and I am so excited to bring it to you. With that, I bring you Carol Robin, after a short word from our sponsors. And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. This episode is brought to you by Epo. Epo is a next-generation AB testing and feature management platform

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1,000 AI responses per month for any plan. That's Commandbar.com slash Lenny. Carol, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Lenny. I'm delighted to be here. I've heard from so many people over the years how much you and your course have impacted their life, both friends of mine and also people when I shared on Twitter that you were coming

on the podcast, so many people left comments just like, oh my God, that course and Carols changed my life in so many ways. So I am really excited to have you here. I'm really honored to have you here. Thank you. I wanted to start with when we were preparing for this podcast, you shared this quote with me. You told me that I was put on this planet to help people learn that it's possible to learn how to build and develop robust, meaningful relationships. What are robust, meaningful relationships, and why are they important to you? Why are they important to people? I think that most people experience a richer, fuller, more meaningful life when they have at least some high-quality relationships. Or maybe put the other way, if you have none,

it's unlikely you're going to experience quite as rich and full a life. So I often talk about relationships exist on a continuum. At one end of the continuum is contact and no connection. Or we could also say dysfunction. And by the way, contact, no connection, those are thousands of Facebook friends. Those are not relationships. And those are not friends in my vocabulary. At the other end of the continuum is what my co-author, David Bradford,

and I came to call exceptional. and that exceptional relationships have a particular set of characteristics that I can get into if you want to. But before I even do that, we're not suggesting, and I'm not suggesting, that everybody needs to turn every one of their relationships into something exceptional. That would be, first of all, impractical, second of all, unnecessary. But it turns out that the skills you need to move along that continuum actually take you from contact and no connection and dysfunction to at least, functional and robust. And then once you've acquired those skills, then you can decide whether or not you want to take a few of those relationships

a lot farther, take them all the way to exceptional. But at least you've gained what you need to know in order to get to functional and robust. And I believe if we had a critical mass of human beings on this planet who had those skills and knew how to get to at least robust and functional, we wouldn't just have more functional teams and organizations. We'd have stronger communities. We'd have more functional schools.

We might, in my wildest dreams, even have a more functional government. And so that's kind of my life's mission. Hopefully this episode is going to actually do exactly that, help people build. From your mouth to God's ears. To give people a little more motivation to really dig in and pay deep attention to this. What are some of the benefits you've seen from people moving further along the spectrum, building more robust relationships and more exceptional relationships? Obviously, I taught a course for many, many years at Stanford Business School. And it was the Stanford Business School,

by the way. It wasn't hidden away somewhere in the psychology department. And that's because the premise of the course is that people do business with people, not ideas, not products, not machines, not tactics, strategies, not even money. They do business with people. So you better get the people part right if you really want to succeed. And that interpersonal competence is a determinant of both personal and professional success. So to your question, I've lost track of how many hundreds of emails and calls and visits I've had from former students, who come to tell me, I just became a CEO, I'm pretty sure I owe it all to you. I just raised my third round. I'm pretty sure I owe it all to you.

I just figured out how my co-founder and I are going to navigate, you know, this very difficult situation we're in. Thank you for everything you taught me. And those are exceedingly satisfying. And I'll tell you, even more, even more rewarding for me are the, I'm pretty sure your class just saved my marriage. I just reconciled my relationship with my brother who I hadn't talked to for two years because he voted for X and I voted for Y. We don't need to get into who X and Y are. And now I get, thank you for finally writing a book because, you know, my VP of product didn't go to Stanford and doesn't understand what I'm talking about. So at least I bought him a book. And, you know, And now I've got more and more folks sending people to leaders in tech, which we can talk about later, which is the program, the nonprofit I started after I left Stanford so that more and more people can learn this from more than just a book.

Amazing. And I think what I love, you also share this point that many people told you that that one class at Stanford Business School, GSP, made them feel like their entire college tuition was worth it from that one class, which is so surprising because it's called touchy-feely. it has nothing to do specifically with business. Except, of course, it has everything to do with business. So to kind of follow that thread, can you just talk about what this class is trying to do, what the goal of this class is, and what actually goes on in this class?

And again, people call this class touchy-feely. I think it's technically called interpersonal dynamics. That's correct. Okay. That's correct. Yeah. Yeah, what does this class solve about, how people understand what goes on here?

Well, first of all, it's a quarter-long class. And at a really fundamental level, we've already really talked about what goes on there. People learn how to be more interpersonally competent or how to connect with other people in more functional ways. And what I mean by connect is, you know, learn how I need to show up in order for you to feel, to trust me, in order for you to feel closer to me, in order for you to want to spend more time with me, in a leadership, by the way, this is part of the leadership curriculum I taught, in a leadership sense, that makes you more likely to want to follow me.

Because in the end, that's the question leaders should ask themselves. Why should somebody follow me? And you know what? You could study other leaders. Why did somebody follow Steve Jobs? Why did somebody follow, you know, Ursula, you know, at Xerox? Why did somebody follow Cheryl Sandberg? Or why should somebody follow me?

Because I'm not any of those people. So the question I asked my students to sit in, and now my leaders and tech participants to sit in is, why should somebody follow you? Now, there are lots of reasons why people might follow you. You've got a great vision that's very inspiring. you have a product that they want to bring into the world. They think they may make a lot of money if they hitch their wagon to you.

Those are all good reasons. But if you want to build a sustainable, long-term legacy, then you probably want to think about showing up in a way that other people come to see you as a referent figure, somebody in their life that they say, you know, when I grow up, I want to be more like that. And that is a form of power. There's a lot of research that supports this, referent power. You're a referent figure.

And then people are much more likely to be open to your influence and open to working harder and open to doing some of the things that you believe. are going to make you great as a whole organization. The class is quite unusual in that there's not just a bunch of lectures and talks. There's a lot of experiential pieces where you have to do quite uncomfortable things in order to learn how to do this well. Can you share an example or two of some of the things you put people through, whatever you're able to share?

Sure. I mean, I think that we don't learn to be, and I don't learn how to connect with you by reading about it in a book, which, by the way, is why it took us four years to write our book, because at the end of every chapter, here are things you can go do with what you just learned in the reading. And likewise in the class, the lectures are like scaffolding on which you can hang your experience,

but most of the learning happens in these small groups called T groups. The T stands for training, not therapy. And sometimes people think they sound like therapy and they sometimes even experience them as feeling a little bit like therapy, but that's not what they are. We call them training groups and what happens in that group is that there's 12 participants and two facilitators. And they are, for example, given a task, like I might pair two students up and say, okay, you've got 10 minutes. allow the other person to get to know you. And that's the only instruction I give. Okay, so now you and I kind of look at each other and we're like,

I don't know what the heck that's supposed to mean. And then, you know, maybe I share something about myself, or maybe I ask you a question, or who knows what I do with that? And then who knows what you do with that? So after 10 minutes, then I stop them and I say, okay, so take a moment and recognize that you just had a bunch of choices. that you actually probably never even think about. You had a choice whether you began by sharing something

or you waited for the other person to be in. You had a choice whether you began with a question, which was a nice, safe place to be, or whether you began with a disclosure. You then had choices with regard to how you responded to what your partner did. And the whole course is about having interactions and then having the guidance and the space and the time and the focus to unpack what just happened.

So now, do you want to have more conversation with this person or less? Are you intrigued? Or are you like, can I just get paired up with somebody else? Right? But now we get to talk about it. And then I put them into a second conversation. And I say, okay, now having learned that, that by the way, one of the ways we build relationships, is through disclosure, through allowing ourselves to become more known.

So that's a little mini lecture. And then I say, okay, now go back into your pair and see whether or not you want to make some new choices. And then, you know, of course that's all, you know, I always say confidentiality is an very important aspect of all this work. So in the pair conversations, in the group conversations, I call them the Vegas rule. What happens in Vegas days in Vegas? And so I don't ask for any specifics, but I'll ask them for what, was there a qualitative difference between the first and second conversation? And they inevitably say, oh, my God, the first conversation is the conversation I have in the bar all the time with somebody. And the second conversation was a little more uncomfortable, but I sure feel a lot more known.

And I think I know my partner a little bit more. and now they've had a little taste of what it's going to be like. Amazing example. So what I want to do with the rest of our chat is basically go through many of the lessons and insights and lectures that you give in this course. Obviously, they're not going to be able to practice the way they would practice in a class. But before we get in there, let's actually talk about, so there's this course at Stanford. And you also now have a program called Leaders in Tech where people can, anyone can participate. They don't have to be going to Stanford Business School.

talk about what this is and how people can participate if they want to go deeper on the stuff we're going to talk about. So Leaders in Tech is a nonprofit that two of my co-founders and I started in the, I guess, in January of 2018. We started it with a program called the Fellows Program, which is a 10-month program that starts with a four-day retreat that's like touchy-feely on steroids because touchy-feely is a quarter-long class. And then it continues on a monthly basis for a day or half a day, a month, to get the rest of the, what we might call Carol Robin curriculum. Because I also taught a course called high performance leadership. I also taught leadership coaching and mentoring. So there were other things besides touch a feeling. Then what happened was that our fellows, who went through our first couple of cohorts, said because the fellows program is open to facts.

either current or previous founders or co-founders of a company that has not gone public. And, you know, what we're trying to do is we're trying to influence the cultures of the future Facebooks and Googles of the world, not the current ones. And so that program was very, you know, has a more limited number of people that can apply to it. However, one of the things that happened was we got a lot of people who said, but I'm not a founder, and I still want that. And we also had fellows who went through the program that said, what about my people? My chief people officer, my VP of engineering. So then we started just a four-day version of the touchy feeling, which anybody can apply to. I mean, actually, not anybody. You do have to be a manager of some kind. And you do have to be in tech for now. So that is, that's where people get the real on the ground experience. They all get a copy of the book. And of course, if you don't want to go through the program,

or it's not the right time, or you want to start somewhere else, you can start with the book, but if you just buy the book and you read it and you put it back in your shelf, you're not going to learn anything. Don't waste your money. If you're going to buy the book,

buy at least one other copy and give it to somebody with whom you actually want to develop a stronger relationship and read it together and do the activities at the end of every book. And then you start to get a taste of what it's like to go through the course. So just to close the loop there, how do people learn more and apply and join this? www. www.leadersinTech.org. Awesome.

And there's around the time this episode comes out, there's a deadline roughly around that time. There is. Around when this episode comes out. So we do these four-day retreats all year. So there's no deadline to apply for that. But if you're interested in the 10-month program that starts with the four-day retreat and then has all that additional stuff, then the deadline for that is May 1. Actually, it might even, how many days, it may be April 30th.

I don't remember how many days there are in April, but it's either last day of April or May 1. April 30th. Yeah, there you go. So it's probably April 30th. So check it out. You have to be nominated in order to apply. Don't let that stop you. If you look at it all and you decide you want to apply,

just apply and say Carol, I listened to Carol Robin on this podcast. Awesome. I love that. Okay. Okay. Don't waste time trying to find somebody to nominate you. Amazing. Okay.

Or you're going to be flooded with applications. Again, from your mouth to God's ears. Okay, so let's get into a lot of the stuff that you teach. So you mentioned progressive disclosure, so that might be a good place to start. What's the lesson there? What is it that people get wrong? Why is that important? So first of all, you know, when we disclose, we make ourselves more vulnerable.

And vulnerability and disclosure tend to be reciprocal. If I hold my cards really close, you're going to hold your cards even closer. So one of the things to learn to do is to experiment, and what works with one person isn't going to work with somebody else necessarily, because every relationship is its own fabulously interesting and always unfolding dynamic, is to experiment with allowing myself to be a little bit more known and then seeing what happens and whether or not you reciprocate. Now, a really important concept we teach that you and I've talked about before is called the 15% rule. And what that is is that we all have a comfort zone. Imagine a circle in the middle called the comfort zone, this picture is in the book, and we don't think twice about what we say. And then there is a danger zone, which is a circle way on the outside.

So these are concentric circles if you're not watching the video. and that I'd never in a million years say that or tell you that. But there's this really important circle in the middle, which is called the learning zone. You know, in academia, they have to have fancy words for very easy concepts. So it's called the zone of proximal development. But basically it means that's where you learn. And you have to step outside your comfort zone in order to learn anything. And especially in order to create a deeper connection with somebody.

However, my students used to say, but Carol, the minute I step outside my comfort zone, how do I know I'm not in my danger zone? I hear this learning zone, but how do I know I didn't go too far? So we came up with the 15%. So step a little bit outside your comfort zone. If you step a little bit outside your comfort zone, you're very unlikely to freak yourself or the other person out. But you'll know, you'll feel a little bit. You'll be like, okay, I feel just a little uncomfortable say this, but I think I'm going to try. And then depending on how you respond, then, you know, we settle into a new comfort zone, a slightly larger circle, which is our comfort zone with each other.

Then we go 15% beyond that. And that's how we learn and grow and deepen our relationship. The same thing, by the way, applies to feedback when we get into that later. So we have to step outside our comfort zone in order to deepen and start. strengthen relationships. What are some examples of stepping outside your comfort zone disclosing? Like what is it that you find people maybe aren't disclosing enough of or areas they should disclose?

It's like challenges they're having in their life. Is it? Well, of course, context matters. It depends on, you know, who I'm talking to with this. And by the way, disclosure, when I, I want to underscore a concept that we also very much teach, which is appropriate disclosure. If I'm the VP of marketing and I get up in front of the troops

and I say, well, third month in a row, we've lost share. And, you know, I have no idea what's happening or why or what to do about it. And, you know, I'm feeling pretty crappy about myself. I'm not even sure I should be your VP of marketing. That might be vulnerable in disclosure, but it is not appropriate vulnerability and that's not what we're talking about.

The flip side of that is that I get up in front of the troops and I pretend nothing is happening. That doesn't build my credibility either. So I can get up and say, okay, probably no secret to most of you. That's the third month in a row. We've lost share. And man, I wish I could stand up here and tell you I know exactly what's happening and I know exactly what we should do about it, but I don't. And I have never needed you all more. Now, who would you rather follow? Yeah. So, you know, I think in business and for a very long time, you know, leaders were socialized to, first of all, leave all feelings in the parking lot. I've got an anecdote I often tell about my very first job, which I'm happy to tell you if you want. And, you know, there's no place for vulnerability or for sharing feelings. Are you kidding, feelings in the workplace?

Now, I ask you, how do you inspire anybody with no feelings? How do you motivate anybody with no feelings? How do you become seen as a real person with no feelings? You know, why should somebody who is a robot who's robotic follow you? And the answer to that sometimes in the Valley especially is, because they're going to follow you for a while because you've got a really great idea. And the minute they've got another choice, man, they are out of there. And so a lot of this connects to kind of this broad piece of advice you always give people, and focus on vulnerability.

You spent a lot of time teaching people just to power vulnerability, which is not intuitive. A lot of people try to move away from showing vulnerability. There's this quote, I saw somewhere that a willingness to be vulnerable makes you more, not less influential as a leader. You just talk about why that is. Yeah, you asked me whether or not I held any contrarian views. and I said, yeah, that's one of them. I actually think that a leader who is willing to be appropriately vulnerable is a stronger leader.

And so I'll give you this short example of what happened to me because it kind of encompasses a lot of what we've been talking about. So in 1975, I went to work for the largest industrial automation company in the world as the first woman in a non-clerical job. I was a sales engineer. And yes, I am old. But the dinosaurs were not roaming the area. And the first thing I learned was, you know, you leave feelings in the parking lot.

Whatever you do, you never talk about your feelings or express feelings in the workplace. It's unprofessional. I was like, okay. I got pretty good at it. In fact, I got very good at it. Yeah, ironic, given that I eventually became known as the Queen of Pachyphelia at Stanford, but at the time I got very good at. I'm not a career academic. I've had six different careers. And 10 years later, I'm at an offsite. And I've been promoted many times. I'm now running a

$50 million region. I've got a half a dozen guys that work for me. And yes, ladies, if you're listening, I did finally fix that, but at that point, I still hadn't quite fixed it. And we're sitting there, and I had an idea. It doesn't matter what it was, but I got a little excited about it, And I got crickets. And I got a little more excited and I got crickets. And I was like, come on, you guys. This could be really cool. What is, why can't you see how cool this could be?

And one of my guys leans in, looks at me and says, Carol, is that like water in the corner of your eye? Oh my God, are you going to cry? And then he says, are you human after all? Are you human after all? And then I burst out crying. And I tore up our agenda. and I said, you don't think I'm human.

I don't think there is anything more important for us to spend our off-site talking about than that. And we spent the next two days talking about who we were, why we were there, what we wanted, what was important to us, how we could help each other. To this day, I believe that was the day I became a leader. To this day, I know for a fact any of them would follow me anywhere. To help people build this muscle and start to practice this to try 15% to school. try to be a little more vulnerable. Is there any other examples or just kind of tidbits you can share of like, here's something you should start doing more and more?

Let's start with you can start admitting mistakes, especially when everybody knows you made one. You actually lose a lot more credibility by ignoring it. And you can start, again, 15% by experimenting with, disclosing, sharing what's going on for you, particularly with regard to feelings, a little bit more often. And so there's a reason the course is called touchy-feely, emphasis on the feeling of the touchy. And that's because there's so much of our ability to develop this competence comes down to the appropriate use of feelings. That's why a vocabulary feelings, how sad is that we had to develop a vocabulary feeling?

Because that's how hard it is for people to even access what they're feeling. So there's a vocabulary feelings in the syllabus and the course, in the appendix of the book. Every person who ever goes through a leaders in tech program gets it. And it starts with allowing yourself to be known not just in terms of facts and feelings. give meaning to facts. Let me give you another example. If I tell you I went ziplining, well, that's kind of interesting. Maybe you learned something about me. Maybe you start to make up all sorts of interesting stories about me. But if I tell you I went ziplining and I was terrified, but I went because I felt coerced by my family and I didn't want to be left alone back and then

miss out. Well, you learned a lot more about me, didn't you? One of my most satisfying moments at the very first Leaders in Tech retreat we ever did was of a former student of mine who had taken touchy-feely 15 years before and who said, you know, based on everything I learned 15 years ago from Carol, I couldn't imagine what I would learn if I came back,

so I'm back. And he said, but Carol or no Carol, I will not sit around for four days talking about how we're, all crushing it. I will leave. I was like, oh, I was so proud. And now, you know, there are times when a leader does have to stand up and say, yeah, we're crushing it. So I'm not, this, you know, another really, really important thing that people don't understand is that all of this is very nuanced

and very context dependent. And most people want unanswered. Tell me what to do when X happens. Well, did X happen with this person or this person? What kind of relationship do you have with them in the first place? Are there 20 people in the room of 250? Is this being recorded? You know, there's just so many different things. You know, who's going to have access to it? There's so many things that you have to consider.

And especially today, I mean, I know I'm old and this will sound predictable, but I am not a social media fan. I think it has done more to destroy. strong relationships and to and to destroy people's ability to even learn or think about what it takes to have a great relationship. Anyway, that's a whole other, we could do a whole podcast on that. I have a, you know, I have a former leaders and tech fellow who sent me this fantastic, here's another great example, sent me an email and maybe called me, I don't remember, it, it

He said, you know, so I had my all-hands meetings are every Monday morning. On Friday, I found out we had missed a major deadline on a product release. And I spent the entire weekend just furious, pissed off, wanting to fire the lot of them. And he said, and then on Sunday afternoon, I remembered, part of what you taught us was that anger is often a secondary emotion. And often, under anger is either fear or hurt. And then I realized, oh yeah, I'm actually feeling pretty scared here, that nobody is as worried about this as I am. And so he said so on Monday morning instead of getting up and blasting them all as I was prepared to do, I got up and I said, so, gang, I am deeply worried and afraid that I'm the only person here who is as a

concerned about this misdeadline as I am and what it's going to mean to our customers. And he said, I have never had my troops rally to fix something faster. So appropriate use of feelings, you know, is something most people don't know how to do. They don't even know how to access the feeling. You know, I told this particular anecdote about anger being a secondary emotion at a very big workshop a number of months ago, and a woman walked up to me and said, wow, thank you so much. I've never understood that my husband carries so much fear and so much hurt because he only ever leads with anger.

It never even occurred to me something else might be going on. And anger is a distancing emotion. whereas hurt, fear, sadness, loneliness, happiness, joy are all connecting emotions. So those are kinds of things people learn when they come through our progress. Oh man, you were blowing my mind already. I can see why marriages are saved by a lot of these things you teach. That's a really profound point you're just making there, that anger is a secondary emotion. Really, what's going on is you're afraid or you're hurt.

Is there anything more you can add there? Because this feels very important. That is normally what's going on, except we've all been socialized, not to be vulnerable, especially in business. And naming any of those other things makes us feel vulnerable. So somehow being angry doesn't make us feel vulnerable. That's the okay emotion as long as you express it in an appropriate way. But it's a distancing emotion.

What a disservice to everybody. in business. What a disservice to professional learning to not help people understand that anger is a distancing emotion and that there are other emotions that are appropriate and that are connecting. This connects so beautifully to your first point we talked about of being vulnerable and disclosing more and how I completely see how if you were just to share, I'm afraid of this, how that brings people closer to you and feels like they will trust you more versus you're not sharing that. Right.

And you know, it connects to something else you and I talked about. One of the biggest gifts I think people get out of taking touchy-feely or going through the Leaders in Tech program or even reading the book is that they learn that they hold some mental models, some beliefs and assumptions. If I do this, that will happen. Or if I don't do this, this will happen. And those are beliefs and assumptions that we develop very early in our careers like I did. Whatever you do, you leave your feelings in the parking lot. And it served

me really well initially. If I burst out crying two months into the job, I'd never ended up running a $50 million region, right? And then it started, it oversherved me and then it cost me. Because I never had a reason to update it. Because I never realized I was paying a cost for continuing to hold that belief that drove my behaviors. And, you know, mental models, man, we develop them very early and they're grooved, and we need new experiences in order to even believe that they're maybe subject to testing. You know, gee, maybe this is, I mean, I got a, I will forever be grateful to this fellow who said, oh my god are you human after all i was like what did this ever happen that i became seen as not

human never right so and you know again we go back to some of the stuff we talked about earlier which is that leaders if if a leader doesn't show up with a willingness to update their mental models and their beliefs they're certainly not going to inspire anybody else to do that. I'm glad you got here because this is exactly what I was going to go next is this mental model challenge we were into where we develop these mental models early on and then they end up hurting us later in life. Are there kind of common mental models people have that hurt them as they grow or is it very particular and dependent on people's experience? I mean, there are some that are pretty tried and true. I mean, the first one is if I tell you more about

me, you'll take advantage of me. Or if I am vulnerable with you or disclosing, you'll think I'm weak. And inevitably, somebody has had a time in their life where that has been true. And maybe it was true a lot. But then they decide that's the only outcome that's ever possible as opposed to part of growing up and becoming more mature is differentiating and being more discretionary and being more discretionary. who we open up to and how we open up to them, right? It's like not, you know, I have a, I have a colleague who often says, we have to think about these things as dials, not switches. It's not an all or not. I don't tell you everything or nothing. I don't share every single feeling I've got or none. It's a dial. And, you know, you move it at 15% rate. Another mental model people hold,

and this becomes a huge learning for people who go through our programs, is people think, if I give you feedback, it's going to ruin the relationship. It's going to weaken the relationship. Whoa, that's a really common. Even though everybody's always wanting, I want more feedback. I want to know how it can be better. But everybody believes that giving feedback is going to create a problem. And that's because most people have, in fact, been on the receiving end of feedback poorly given,

or they've given feedback in a not very good way. You know, they've stepped in piles of doo-do. Yes. And it does not mean feedback ruins relationships. It means feedback the way you've always seen it done or done it ruins relationships. Pretty important. And then one of the things that we arm people with, I think one of the most powerful pieces of learning that people get,

is learning how to give feedback in a way that is going to build relationships. relationships as opposed to. And it's going to build a relationship if you see that my reason for wanting to give it to you is that I'm invested in you and in us. It's similarly, we hold mental models about expressing what we call pinches, which are just, you know, those little things that people do. Then we're just like, I'm not going to make the deal out of it. I'm not going to say anything. So the mental model is, eh, it's a small thing. The problem is if I'm doing something that's mildly irritating. And you don't tell me, then what am I going to do? Keep doing it.

And then are you going to get less irritated or more irritated? More irritated, more irritated. Yeah. Now, if I get less irritated or it doesn't change, then you're right. I shouldn't say anything. But if I have the wherewithal to notice, this is why we talk about two antenna, which I'll come back to, to notice that I'm getting more and more activated, more and more irritated, then it's really important for me to say something. And by the way, address it while it's still small. And then it won't get big. That's why we call it, you know, talk about a pinch before it becomes a crunch, and then it becomes a much bigger deal.

But most of the time we say, yeah, it's not worth it. So I always tell students, okay, substitute the pronoun. Substitute the word it for I, you, we. I'm not worth it. You're not worth it. We're not worth it. And then ask yourself again whether it's worth raising. This episode is brought to you by the A16Z podcast.

Every week on this podcast, you get to hear from product leaders and growth experts from some of the world's most impactful companies, whether it's Airbnb, Slack, Figma, or Stripe. But what will the next wave of companies look like? One firm might have a clue. Andruson Horowitz invested in all four of the companies I just mentioned, and their flagship podcast, the A16Z podcast, features conversations with the very founders and technologists shaping our future. Recent episodes feature folks like Mark Andresen, long-time builders like Adam D'Angelo from Quora,

and Mark Pinkus from Zinga. Even some voices from the government like the CIA's first ever chief technology officer, Nand Muld Muldanani. From drones to DNA to deep learning, you can eavesdrop on the future with the A16Z podcast. I want to talk about how to give feedback well, but I think it might be helpful to talk about this concept that you call the three realities and the net, because I think that sets up a lot of this. Yeah, and in fact, it is fundamental to giving feedback well.

Awesome. So they're very related. You were right, right, you were right on. And you know what? Let me just take a moment and talk. I mentioned the two antenna, and this is in the book, but, you know, we're all equipped with two antenna. One is tracking what's going on for me, my internal antenna.

The other one is kind of trying to pick up signals on what might be going on for you. And first of all, recognizing those two antenna exists, second of all, learning how to hone our ability to pick up subtler and subtler signals make us more interpersonally competent. So also I'm a big believer in meditation and awareness. So anyway, if we now fast forward to your question about how to give feedback well, which has to do with understanding the three realities, it starts with in any exchange between two people. There are, Three realities. There is my intent, how I see the world, my background, my history.

There is what I do or say or don't do. Verbal or nonverbal. So my reality is reality number one. My behavior, verbal or nonverbal, is reality number two. And whatever happens on your end is reality number three. the impact of what I've said or done, you know, how you see things, you know, your background. So there's these three distinct realities. And the trouble we get into when we don't recognize that those three realities exist is we don't

understand that we are only privy to two out of the three. So I know what's going on for me and I know what I did. I have no idea what happened on your end. You know what I did and how it impacted you. So your two are the only one we share is the one in the middle, in common, the behaviors, right? Now, we draw a metaphorical net between reality number one and reality number two to help people understand. And anybody who's ever taking touchy-feely in no matter which context, knows the saying, stay on your side of the net.

Meaning, stick with the two realities you know, because we get in trouble the minute we start thinking we know the other person's reality. Right. So I've told this anecdote many times. It might even be in the book, but I come home, I'm sorry, my husband comes home after a very long day in the valley.

He was an executive. I've got two little kids, infant and a two-year-old. I've been waiting for him to come home. I come running into the front room in those days, by the way, you know, we still had newspapers. He's reading the newspaper. And I say, oh my God, oh my God, you're home. I can't wait until I tell me what happened. I can't believe what happened. Why are we living in Palo Alto? Jesus Christ, I don't want to, I don't want to raise kids at Palo Alto. There's a terrible doubt. I wish that new nursery school, it hasn't even opened. It's already closed. Oh, my God. And, you know, he says,

Mm-hmm. Right? So then I say, you're not listening. And by the way, people have been taught eye messages. I feel that you're not listening is exactly the same thing. It doesn't have a single feeling word in it. I don't know whether he was listening or not. I'm over the net.

I'm in his court. Unless I'm in his head. I don't know whether he was listening or not. But then he says, yeah, I was listening. You're all worked up because you went to that new nursery school. Actually, it's more like this. Yeah, you're all worked up, and you went to that interst school. I haven't even opened.

You're all worked up. Now I get a little bit more activated. And I say, how can you not care? First of all, he didn't say, I don't care, did he? I don't know whether he cares or not. And by the way, and, you know, how can you be so insensitive? And I feel that you don't care, and I feel you're being insensitive, are not feelings. They're attributions and imputed motives.

and that's where we make our biggest mistakes when it comes to feedback. And what that does is it makes the other person defensive. So calling my husband insensitive is the most insensitive thing in the world because he's one of the most sensitive people on the planet. So it wasn't until I learned to stay on my side of the net and say, so when I speak and I'm all worked up about something, and the only thing I get back from you are either a grunt or an affectless repetition of what I just said. That's reality number two.

Anybody watching the video would say that's what happened. I don't feel heard. He can't say, yeah, you do. And when I don't feel heard, I feel hurt and I feel distanced. And the reason I'm telling you that is because I can't be here for you in the way I'm want to be when I feel that way. So the formula is when you do insert behavior, I feel pull out the vocabulary of feelings. And I'm telling you this because, or I'm hoping the outcome of you knowing this is. And so then what happened is he said, well, if you want my undivided attention,

then you've got to give me some time to unwind when I get home. What a reasonable request. I said, well, how much time do you need? He said, I don't know, half an hour. I was like half an hour. I've been counting the minutes. How about five minutes? We settled on 15. And by the way, that is the purpose of feedback when it's constructive feedback.

Move into a problem-solving conversation. Don't change the other person. Move into behaviors that will work better for both of you. Amazing. And this sort of structure, so the structure you just share, And this is similar to nonviolent communication. Yes. It is.

So there's books people can read on this. Right. Ours came before, but that's okay. Oh, wow. Okay. That's a no. I will say anything that spreads the word and anything that helps people learn how to engage with each other in ways that build relationship, I'm awful.

I love that attitude. Okay, so the structure again is just when you do, some behavior. I feel an emotion. And by the way, there's this, is there like a flyer or handout? I think the book has these of just like emotions. Okay, cool. Feelings. Yeah, yeah. The vocabulary of feelings is an appendix in the book. Okay, great. As is the formula. Oh, amazing. Okay, great. So by the book, if you want to get really good at this stuff. Is there anything online? We can point people to you or we got, we got a picture of the, I'll send you a couple slides. Perfect. And then you can just say, here are the slides.

Amazing. So we'll link to that in the show notes. And I could, like, as you talk through all of these lessons and pieces of advice, it makes so much sense why this is something you need to do hands on. Because I imagine what's happening in the class here is you do this with someone and then you hear the reality and it often surprises you. Right. Exactly. Because often we say it takes two to no one. I don't know what impact I'm having on you until you tell me. and I have to be willing to be a little vulnerable to ask. And if we go back to that first activity that you asked me to describe way at the beginning, then we put them back in pairs and we say, okay, now, now that you've learned a little bit about feedback, tell your partner what they did that made it easier for you to disclose more and be more willing to be more vulnerable and or what they did that made it a little harder. And that right there in the moment you learn. something about yourself that you might never have known.

Somebody says, you know, you looked away as I was talking. You might not have even known you did that. You looked at your watch. And I, you know, I love this. One of my greatest moments when I was teaching was that I asked a question. I was teaching in a big lecture hall at the law school, and they didn't have any clocks on the law. And I asked a question and a student began to answer it,

and I just glanced at my watch. Just because, you know, I was trying to figure out, where I was, you know, in time, in terms of when I had to wrap up. And he walked up to me after class and he said, you know, Professor, I felt disrespected when you looked at your watch while I was answering. I hugged him. Well, first I asked him if it was okay. It's it okay if I hug you? And then I hugged him. Yeah, and I love how so much of this is like, we never get this feedback in real life. No one ever tells us this thing you did is distracting them and knowing them, making them feel like they're not being.

heard and so and then guess what then he leaves and then somebody says how was that and he says ah you know she's really disrespectful then right and then pretty soon nobody nobody's ever even been there but my reputation is that I don't respect student that's how stuff gets out control yeah and like you wish people would tell you right like everybody wants this but it's so hard and uncomfortable to tell anyone negative feedback which by the way I never used the word negative okay okay okay so Feedback is either constructive or complementary. Constructive feedback is there's something you're doing that is problematic,

and the purpose of it is let's move to a problem-solving conversation, like with Andy and me. The purpose of complementary feedback is, wow, that's the third time you've handed in that report early and completely, and you even went above and beyond and did this and this. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that, how lucky I feel that you work for me. And if I'm telling you this, because if there's ever something that you want that we're not giving you,

let's talk. I want to make sure you know that I want to talk about it. By the way, same formula. Now compare that to a nice job. Thanks. Right? All feedback is data. So all feedback is positive.

More data is always better than less data. I agree. That's a great lesson there. to maybe make this even more practical for listeners that are maybe working on a product and say they have to give feedback of a product design or to a colleague who did something wrong. They're an example that you could share of just like here's like in the workplace. I'm glad you asked that because first of all, we're not talking about performance feedback. And we're not necessarily talking about feedback on a task. What we're talking about is interpersonal feedback.

and the reason it's so important is that if you don't take care of that, then that other kind of feedback becomes unresolved. When you leave the interpersonal stuff unresolved, then the other feedback doesn't go well because the real problem is that I'm still pissed off that you never answered my phone call. So now I'm going to make it all about how, you know, this feature really is never going to work. Here's an example.

somebody walks into their a manager or a team leader or whatever walks into a room meeting starts a meeting by say so I want to make sure we hear from everybody I want to make sure that we have a very full conversation I want to talk about X and now let's say that I start to say something

and before I have finished he says yeah you know and the other thing we should talk about is blah and then a little later a similar thing happens. I start to suggest that there's another way to look at this, and he turns back to what somebody else had said and never says anything in response to what I just said.

And I'm being very specific here, very behaviorally specific. And then, after a while, what happens to me is, I feel less and less inclined to offer up anything. Now, maybe he doesn't care. But if he cares because he started by thinking he wanted to hear from everybody, then I'm not being very caring if I don't tell him what the impact was of his behavior. So I don't call him out in the middle of the meeting because I don't want to embarrass him, but I might go to his office later and say, so, you know, John, do you have a few minutes?

I have an observation. I've got something that I experienced that you might want to know. Sure, Carol. So, you know, when I started to say X, you did Y. When I started to say Z, you did X. I said, and when that, you started the meeting by saying you want to hear from everybody. When that happened, I felt less and less, I felt kind of shut down, and I felt less inclined to offer up my opinion.

So, and maybe that's okay, but I wondered whether you knew that that was the impact. And that's, and I'm telling you because as far as I am concerned, In that meeting, you did not accomplish your stated desire. Your desired outcome was to hear from everybody. And after a while, I just gave up trying to give you mine. Like, it's kind of you need to solve these pinches, as you described early, because all of this comes back to these are relationships. They matter because that's the way we get everything done.

And if you just ignore these things, your relationship's going to be hurt. You're not going to be able to accomplish the things you want to accomplish. It's almost like something you need to do, even though it feels hard. Absolutely. And that's why I say that feedback builds relationships. Because by the way, if I'm doing something that I kind of wish I hadn't done, it's not that I'm going to be like, oh, yay, I'm so glad I did that. But if I recognize that it would have been easier for you not to say anything because it would have been more comfortable,

but because you cared about me, you actually said something to me. that talk about something that builds relationship coming back to the antenna as you described feels like one of the most important skills you teach people is to build this antenna both of yourself which is even good to think is easier but maybe often not

but also understanding how the other person feels and you have this kind of concept of the art of inquiry and how powerful that is can just talk about what that is oh yeah I'm glad you brought that up because inquiry is a fundamental component of strong interpersonal relationships. For a couple of reasons. And first of all, let's stop and note.

Inquiry comes, the root of the word inquiry is quest. Quest means to be in search of and not knowing what you're going to find. Not the way most people think about questions and inquiries. Most of the time people ask a question to confirm a hypothesis. don't you think you're just trying to discredit John by doing that? That's not inquiry. Don't you think you'd just be better off letting that go? That's not inquiry.

And by the way, another thing to note in artful inquiry is, first of all, you have to suspend judgment. You cannot be curious if you've already decided you know what's going on for someone else. You can always go back to being judgmental. But you've got to suspend it long enough. to see if there's something for you to learn. And then the way you ask the question matters. Questions that can be answered with yes or no are typically limiting questions

and aren't going to be very productive. Questions that start with why? Why didn't you do that are going to make me defensive? Or worse, why are you crying? Well, if you really, is that going to make me want to tell you more about why I'm upset? Or why are you upset? I'm going to, right away, I'm going to go into, oh, no, I'm not upset. It's not a big deal.

Or I'm going to go into a place that's not necessarily very productive because this reminds me of how my mother always, you know, scolded. Neither one is going to be very productive. So questions that start with, what? What's this about? What's going on? Where is this manifesting? When did you see this happen last? How might we go about unpacking what's going on?

Where is this happening most? What when we're happening? stay away from why. And it's a whole art. Something else you teach people and you're big on is that people can actually change themselves. I think a lot of people might feel like, I'm just not good at this. I'm not good at giving feedback.

I'm not good at maybe asking questions. I'm just like, I don't know. Talk about what you found about the change people see and why it's actually possible and how. Well, for starters, to any of your listeners, One of my very favorite authors is Carol Dweck who wrote a book called Mindset. And, you know, you put a word yet at the end of any of those. I don't know how yet. I'm not like that yet.

Changes the meaning of the whole thing. And by the way, talk about updating a mental model. Instant update of a mental model. The other thing that I'll say is we are all capable of changing, our behavior. We cannot change our personality. We are born wired with personalities. I am very outgoing and extroverted as might come as a shock to all of you. And you know what? When I overdo it, I suck all the oxygen out of the room. And one of the behaviors I had to learn and it takes discipline to engage in was zipping it a little more so that others could speak up more.

And my incentive was that I actually really wanted to learn more about what was going on for them, and I wasn't going to learn anything unless I shut up long enough for them to tell me. So behavior is something we all have control. Now, when I give somebody feedback and they tell me, well, I can't do that. If I've asked them to change a behavior, then I'll say, I'm sorry, I don't think I can accept I can't. I will accept I don't want to or I don't have it but I don't have to accept I can't

so I'd just like you to own the fact that it's a choice that you're making kind of along those lines something I don't know if this is from your book but I saw somewhere you said that it's possible to say almost anything to almost anyone if you have the necessary skills how do people build these skills I know we talked about a lot of this there's the structure focusing on your side of the net but just how do you avoid people getting defensive? First of all, let's make sure that we point out that what we're doing here is we're shifting probabilities of success.

We're not guaranteeing anything. And let's say that you do your best and you stay on your side of the net and you give somebody feedback and they go bonkers and they call you all kinds of names and they write, you know. Now we that's, now there's an opportunity. to learn something else that everybody learns in these programs, which is called repair. How do you repair when something goes sideways? Because no matter how good you are, no matter how skilled you get, no matter what your intent was, sometimes it won't work. And then you've got to know how to repair. And that's why, remember I told you that our facilitators have a unique set of skills. and that's because they have to allow messes to happen.

Otherwise, nobody's going to learn how to repair. And repair often goes back to some of what we've already talked about. Let's start with, I come in the kitchen, my husband's struggling. I say to him, can I help you with that? He says, don't tell me what to do. I'm sure none of your listeners can relate to this story. and I say instead of, I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, I was just trying to be helpful. What kind of a way to respond to my offering help is that?

I say, what did you hear me say? One of the most powerful things you can do when somebody responds in a way that feels very unexpected and out of whack with what you just said is go back to what did you hear me say. because nine times out of ten, what they heard is not what you said. He said, I heard you say, I didn't know what I was doing. Now, by the way, it didn't matter. That's not what I said. And I didn't say, that's not what I said.

I said, wow, really glad I asked. Because now that you, now that I understand that's what you heard, I understand why you reacted the way you did. And I said, let me try it again. you know one of the ways that I show somebody that I love them is I offer to help and what would you like to me to do if in a situation like this when I see you struggling he says wait for me to ask and that was 25 years ago and that has served us very well because we've been married 37 years 39 years and if we go back to feedback you give somebody

feedback they get super like defensive and you know By the way, net jumping invites net jumping, so they're likely to net jump too. And by the way, the minute you label somebody or you're over the net, in fact, you sent me something that was really interesting that I wanted to find here because you said, nobody is born with genes for being rude or self-involved. Well, guess what? Rude and self-involved are labels. That is not behaviorally specific. So calling somebody rude or self-involved is just going to make them defensive. But saying, you know, I was interrupted three times.

And, you know, I'm telling you this because you said you wanted to hear my opinion. And I just thought you should know that, you know, I was put off by being interrupted, much less likely to incite defensiveness. Absolutely. Just hearing what actually happened, staying in your side of the net. Exactly. So again, this always comes back to like, I could see this being so effective doing this in a class versus just like listening to us and like, okay, I'm going to start staying in my side of net, I'm going to prepare relationships.

Are there any other examples of exercises you do in the class that might be helpful to people just to hear how you learn some of these things? Every chapter in the book has a section at the end called Deepen Your Learning. and those deep in your learning sections, every single one of them has a suggested activity, something you can go do. And some of those come from some of the things we do in the classroom. So that's one place to start in terms of trying to find, you know, very tactical and practical ways of applying some of this. The other thing that we often do in, I often do in leaders in tech, I used to do,

this less at Stanford because they did a lot of this in their T-groups and they were actually in real time with each other putting everything they were learning to use. But sometimes with my execs in leaders in tech, I will, for example, put them in a trio and I will say to you, so Lenny, I want you to think of somebody who you would like to give feedback to. And I want you to tell me what is it, what's the behavior they're engaging in, how does it make you feel, what would be behind you wanting to tell them, what would be your desired outcome to the conversation, then I become you. You become your difficult person because you know them and I don't. And we role play. Because you've now told me, you know, what you need, what you want,

what's going on for you and then you have to play your difficult person as well as you can the third person is usually the observer who pinch hits and says Carol I think that was over the net

Carol I don't think that was a behavior Carol and by the way we say I feel insert feeling nine times out of ten people say I feel that or I feel like I feel that you don't care is not a feeling. I feel like it doesn't matter is not a feeling.

I feel that you're not committed. It's not a feeling. In fact, they're all over the net. You're almost guaranteed to be over the net when you start, I feel and put in light or that. Guaranteed. Very easy hack. I feel pull-up vocabulary feeling.

You can't say grammatically correctly. I feel that sad or I feel that angry. I feel that irritated or I feel like disappointed. It doesn't work. This is amazing marriage advice. I'm going to, I need to remember these things. Yeah. Many married couples have bought the book together and read it together, actually, which is kind of cool.

There's a few other things I want to touch on that I love. One is a tip that you share. You call it advice hinders relationships. I'm really glad you asked me about that because two things, a couple of things. First of all, leaders often believe this is another mental model that they have to have all the answers. And that is actually a pretty, it's not a very productive mental model or belief because, first of all, puts a huge amount of pressure on the leader. Now suddenly, I always have to know. And what happens when I don't know?

Second of all, I believe a leader's job is to ensure the best answer is found. It doesn't matter whether it comes from me or anywhere else in the organization. It also allows for the possibility that somebody else may have a better answer than me. And many, a really, really good solution has been squelched and never surfaced because people are afraid to say, well, I see it a little differently. What if we did this? Okay. We had a challenger disaster as a result of that.

The other thing about advice is that it creates even bigger power differentials between people. So if you're the leader or you're in the higher power position to start with, then giving me advice is only going to make me feel even lower power as opposed to, well, let's think about this together. Let's be thought partners. Often when we give advice, it's a good thing to stop yourself and ask yourself, who am I doing this for? Am I doing this for me so that I can puff myself up with everything I know? Or am I doing it for you because this is really going to help you and make you better? Nine times out of ten, being a thought partner as you explore the various options and coming to your own solution,

is both going to help you develop more and then you're not going to have to come ask me again. If the only time you ever learn is when you come ask me and you don't go through any of the work of figuring out how I got to that answer, well then, you know, you're just, I've just made more work for myself. There's this great Harvard Business Review post I just read about monkeys on your back. Have you heard of this? Yes. Yeah, we're basically as a manager, people are always trying to put monkeys on your back to have you solve their problem and your job as a manager is to keep the monkeys on their own backs and help them.

Yes. And I'm glad you brought that up because people then have become so used to the quick shortcut is you'll just give me the answer. First of all, you have enabled powerlessness. You certainly haven't helped them learn and grow. If you think you're, if you at all think your job as a manager is to at least sometimes do that. And sometimes people will say, can't you just give me the answer? And then, you know, I always just say, I could. And here's how I don't, here's why I'm not going to, because I don't think that'll serve you. Because that's not my job. My job isn't just to give you the answers. My job is to turn you into somebody who eventually will just know what the right answer is. But just give me the answer. Does this apply to friendships

also? Like, you know, often people come to you as a friend. I need to make advice on this. Does this apply as well, often try not to give advice? Or is it a different dynamic there? Well, some of the same power differential can happen. I think chapter four in the book is about two guys who are good friends, and one of them is always trying to give advice to the other one. First of all, it can be annoying if you didn't ask for it. So I certainly wouldn't give advice unless somebody asked for it. And I might not immediately jump to. I might, to the advice,

I might want to explore, you know, what have you already thought about? How have you already approached it? Where are you stuck? I might ask more questions before I immediately go into advice. Because, by the way, nine times out of 10, you end up giving advice on something

that's not really what the person was worried about or wondering about. So, you know, first, go to inquiry. You know, you can always come back to advice. Yeah, I find that every time I try to resist or I make myself resist giving advice and instead ask more questions every single time. I realized, okay, I had no idea what they were actually looking for what was going on. Yeah. But he's hard to do.

I'm just like, here, I just want to tell you, Totally, because you know what? It's another mental model. I serve you best by just giving you advice when you ask for it. That's the loving, caring thing to do. Well, it's a mental model. Try testing it and seeing whether or not it really turns out to still be valid. And so maybe the more correct mental mental model is, how would you describe it, that it's often better to help the person figure it out? Or is it that you just often don't actually understand what's going on? the best thing to do, first go to inquiry.

Because by the way, I also, as you might imagine, I tend to err very much on the side of transparency. And so I'll say, you know, man, I got all kinds of things going on in my head about what I think would be great for you to do. And I'm going to resist that because I, first of all, may or may not hit the mark. So I really like to understand more.

And second of all, you know, I wonder if it'll, in the end be even more fruitful if we explore different things together. Okay, just a few more questions. One is, so we have this segment on the podcast that I call Failure Corner, where people share failure in their career and what they learn from it. And you have a really constructive way of thinking about failure with this great acronym. Can you talk about that? The acronym is A-F-O-G, another effing.

I don't know your audience well enough. don't want to offend anybody. Another fucking opportunity for growth. Every student who ever took a class from me, every client who I have ever coached, every participant who's ever gone through leaders in tech knows that acronym. Because my question,

when something has gone wrong or, you know, a person has experienced a failure, My first question is always, so what did you learn? Because there's always a lesson. And then usually what follows is, yeah, you just had an a-fog. And, you know, as a person who's had a lot of a-fogs throughout my life, it puts it in perspective.

I like the perspective that it offers. It's not at the end of the world. Sometimes some a-fogs are more painful than others. some may fogs take longer to recover from than others. Most of the time, you know, they're recoverable, particularly if I've invested the energy in really unpacking what there was for me to be, for me to learn. Yeah, so the advice here is when something goes wrong, when you fail,

think of it as another fucking opportunity for growth, A fog. Exactly. Okay. That's amazing. To kind of go full circle, to where we started building exceptional relationships, building robust relationships. In the book, you have this checklist of just how to build an exceptional relationship.

I know you don't have all this in your head. Actually, I probably do. You probably do. What's on this list of just like things you can do to build exceptional relationships? Well, go back to the fact that there are six characteristics of exceptional relationships. And actually, those are the characteristics that are present as a relationship is moving down this continuum that we've talked about. And the more each of these exists, the farther down the continuum you are. So the first one is, you know, I'm better known by you.

And of course, there's skills involved in how do I allow myself to be known. The second one is, I know you better. And there's skills involved in getting to know you better. We've talked about many of them. The third one is we trust that our disclosures won't be used against us. The fourth one is we can be honest with each other. That's where all the feedback comes in. The fifth one is we know how to resolve conflict productively. And the sixth one is we are committed to each other's learning and growth. And when all six of those are present, to varying degrees, you've moved farther down the continuum.

You wrote somewhere that you know your relationship has become exceptional when you and the other person don't have to hide important parts of yourself. Yeah. and can deal with major issues even if it feels scary. Yep. I did write that somewhere and I stand by that. If you kind of zoom out from all of your work and teachings, are there any overarching themes that continue to come up that you think are important for people to take away from this conversation?

Well, for starters, we're all works in progress, which means every relationship in your life is a work in progress. Because if I'm a work in progress and you're a work in progress, then by default, so is our relationship. And so remembering that what worked with you two years ago may or may not work for you now, because we're different people. So I think that's a biggie. I think stopping and becoming aware of what are the mental models

that are driving these choices that I'm making, like every behavior has in front of it a choice if we stop long enough to become aware of it. And in front of every choice, there's some belief. So I try to march myself back from the result to the behavior, to the choice, to the mental model that drove it, or the skill or lack of skill. Something that we didn't talk about at the beginning of this because it might distract people, but you've been dealing with long COVID for almost two years at this point.

Where are you at with it? How are things going? And is there anything you've learned from this unexpected part of your life? It's given me an opportunity to live a lot of what I teach. So I always taught in my leadership classes that the worst thing a leader can do is make an organization too dependent on them. If you care about building a sustainable long-term organization and a legacy, then it behooves you not to make the organization very dependent on it.

So over the last 20 months, I have slowly and surely given more and more of my responsibilities to more and more members of the team, to the point where hot off the press, I'm about to become only an advisor and step out of really all of my operational duties probably by the end of this year. Now, there was a point at which I was like, and oh my God, what happens if I get better suddenly, right?

Because people do get better. And my, you know, one of my very wise children and said, you know, Mom, I'm pretty sure that if you suddenly get a lot better, they'll be happy to give you lots of stuff to do. So anyway, so that's one of probably the biggest lessons. And also, it goes with a lesson around acceptance. And, you know, except, I wrote a LinkedIn, I think a LinkedIn, not a blog, a paper, one of those LinkedIn things. If you go to my website, you can look at things up right. And I think it was called Long COVID and Acceptance or something like that.

But it's about how acceptance is not resignation. And it's about having an opportunity to rethink a lot of things and reframe beliefs. and I think the last thing I'll say about it is that it has made me a much more empathetic person and I think one of the really interesting and important things to learn and have always continued to learn in doing the interpersonal dynamics work we do is you never know what's going on for someone else and in one of the worst things we can do is assume we know what's going on for someone else. And it's really easy to get really in,

I think I said this before we even got online, which is in the absence of data, people make shit up. So if you don't want people to make shit up about you, you're better off disclosing more. Because then you'll have more control over your self-definition, not less. People like to make sense of things.

They will connect dots however way they want to, unless you help them connect them the way you want them to. Another case for self-disclosure. Well, Carol, I'm incredibly thankful that you made time for this. I know it's not the easiest thing to do these things. Thank you. To remind people where to find leaders in tech and how to apply, tell them the website

and who it's for specifically, so the right sort of people go there. And then finally, just how can listeners be useful to you as a final question? I'm on LinkedIn. You won't be able to just connect with me. I've got one of those things where you can't just connect. You need my email address. So you can put my email address in the notes. Anybody's more than welcome.

But if you connect with me, please don't try to sell me anything. The only reason it's set up that way is that too many people were trying to sell me too many things, and I got exasperated. That's the only reason they wanted to connect. So I'm just going to trust that you'll reach out to me because you want to connect with me because you're interested in my work, and that you'll also know and be sensitive to the fact that I have long COVID, so my capacity to respond to messages and emails is definitely impacted.

I used to be one of those. You could count on me to always respond. By the way, another learning. You know, it turns out everybody didn't write me off just because I couldn't respond to them right away. That is a really great learning. Okay, and then the website for people that may want to apply and applications are still open basically by the time this is leadersin tech.org.

Right. Amazing. Carol, you are wonderful. Thank you so much for making time for this. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening.

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