Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO)

Episode Date: June 2, 2024

Cameron Adams is the co-founder and chief product officer of Canva. Canva is one of the world’s most valuable private software companies, used by 95% of Fortune 500 companies. Since its launch in 2013, Canva has grown to over 150 million monthly users in more than 190 countries, generating $2.3 billion in annual revenue. Prior to Canva, Cameron ran a design consultancy, worked at Google on Google Wave, and founded the email startup Fluent. He is also an author of five web design books and a regular speaker at global conferences. In our conversation, we discuss:• Why they spent a year building their minimum viable product (MVP) before launch• Why Canva has no managers, and their unique approach to coaching and performance reviews• Why they encourage employees to “give away their Legos”• Insights into Canva’s SEO growth strategy• Their three-pillar framework for integrating AI into their product• Stories from the early days—Brought to you by:• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs• Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams—Where to find Cameron Adams:• X: https://twitter.com/themaninblue• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/themaninblue• Website: https://themaninblue.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Cameron’s background(02:00) Reflecting on the success of Canva(04:50) Reflecting on hard times(10:01) Canva’s product-obsessed culture(12:02) Why they prioritize internal promotions and hires(13:56) What makes Canva unique(16:31) The concept of giving away your Legos(21:44) Why Canva has no managers(24:29) Product management at Canva(27:56) Reflections on working with a married couple(30:37) Why they spent a year building their MVP before launch(33:49) Advice for building an MVP(41:23) Canva’s onboarding transformation(44:25) Canva’s SEO strategy(50:37) The success of Canva’s freemium strategy(54:24) Integrating AI into Canva’s product(01:01:50) Where to find Cameron—Referenced:• Canva: https://www.canva.com/• Melanie Perkins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanieperkins• Cliff Obrecht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cliff-obrecht-79ba9920• Jennie Rogerson, Head of People, LinkedIn post about “season opener” events: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jennierogerson_season-opener-is-one-of-my-favourite-events-activity-7006815614556135424-73bD/• Game of Thrones on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones• Woodstock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock• ‘Give Away Your Legos’ and Other Commandments for Scaling Startups: https://review.firstround.com/give-away-your-legos-and-other-commandments-for-scaling-startups/• Minimum viable product (MVP): https://www.productboard.com/glossary/minimum-viable-product-mvp• Canva’s SEO Strategy Is Elite: https://thegrowthplaybook.substack.com/p/canvas-seo-strategy-is-elite• The SEO Strategy That Led Canva to a $40 Billion Valuation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INyGKt6LAqM• Andrianes Pinantoan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrianes/• Canva Create: https://www.canva.com/canva-create/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Canva is bigger than Figma and Miro and Webflow combined. You guys are generating $2.3 billion in ARR and you're profitable. They're also growing 60% year over year and it's accelerating. I run everyone through the culture of Canva. One of those sections is on giving away your Lego. Finding joy and the other things of building a team, passing on your experience, helping other people do great writing or great product building or great engineering.

When is this coaching concept? I have never heard of this. We don't really have managers, but everyone at Canva has a good. coach that constantly working with you to look at your skills, but also when it might be time to move on to the next level. I'm curious just how you think about product management. I didn't want to do product management like they did at Google, and that's because of the different cultures. I have seen product managers at other companies who are very independent of teams, and that seems

very weird to me. For us, product managers are really connected. It feels like Canvas has just been this nonstop up into the right, all win, all success. In reality, that's never actually the case. How many failure stories do you want? We've got to plan. Today, my guest is Cameron Adams. Cameron is the co-founder and chief product officer at Canva, which is a truly incredible business and company. At the top of the episode, I share a bunch of stats. They'll probably surprise you about the scale that Canva has reached these days.

In our conversation, we cover a ton of ground, including how Canva stays product obsessed, their freemium strategy, lessons about building MVPs, how Cam and the product team think about AI within their product, Also, peek into their unique team culture, their SEO and growth strategy, and also peek into some of the stuff they just launched. This episode is for anyone building or growing a product or company, and I guarantee by the end of this conversation, you'll be as blown away with Canva as I am.

With that, I bring you Cameron Adams. And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. Cameron, thank you. so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. It is so great to be here, Lenny. I'm very excited. I'm even more excited. I have at least a billion questions for you. I'm hoping I get through at least half a billion. There's so much I want to talk to you about. But I want to start with

kind of a warm and fuzzy question. Do you ever just take a moment to reflect on the insane success of this business that you've built? And before you answer that, I'm going to share some stats about Canva that I think are going to blow people's minds. So think about the answer. So I was researching Canva. All of this was just, I didn't know any of this, actually, and I think it'll surprise a lot of people just the scale that Canva has reached at this point. Okay, so Canva is bigger than Figma and Mero and Webflow combined, both in terms of valuation and in terms of revenue. You guys are generating $2.3 billion in ARR per year, and you're profitable. You've been profitable for about seven years at this point. You're also growing 60% year over year, and it's accelerating faster than last

year. I think this is all quite unheard of at the scale. Do you ever just reflect back on this and like, okay, this is, I've done well. Well, when you say it all like that, it sounds pretty amazing. You don't, I don't think every day you're cognizant of that growth and that achievement, but there are particular moments where you get to really reflect. And for me, it's most of the time when we bring the team together. Obviously, now we're in a pretty virtual world, hybrid in some best cases. But when the team all get together and we celebrate is when we finally have those moments where you get to kind of step out of yourself, look at this huge sea of people and realize

what you've achieved together. Probably the most recent moment we got to do that was for our 10th birthday last year. So Camvas largely censored in Australia. We've got lots of offices around the world. But we had a big birthday celebration in Sydney right on. the harvard air in front of the water and we had thousands of people there and we just got to look back on everything we've achieved over the previous 10 years. And that was a pretty amazing moment. What about just personally? You basically went from a designer on Google Wave to a co-founder of

one of the most generational successful startups in the past decade. How does that feel? I still think like I'm constantly growing. I'm constantly learning stuff. I don't feel like I've achieved, you know, a ceiling or been a massive smash hit. We're always changing how we're doing things. We're always doing things we've never done before and we feel totally like a fish out of water. So, yeah, I've achieved a few things personally, but I still feel like there's so much more to go. That sounds right. And when I talk about the flip side, from the outside, like I described, it feels like Canva has just been this nonstop up into the right, all win, all success, just killing it all the time. In reality, that's never actually the case. It's often really helpful for

people to hear a story of, okay, there's actually this moment of this may be all falling apart or a struggle for yourself. Is there a moment that comes to mind of just like, oh man, this was really scary and hard for me? I think there's probably a few different stories that would resonate with your audience because there's like, there's business kind of stories of like how the actual company is tracking, there's product stories of stuff we launched that didn't go anywhere. There's team stories where you're dealing with people and all the different quirks that that entails. I think I'll choose a business story. There was a moment, kind of around our 100 million valuation mark where we were putting together around. We had a lot of existing investors who were really

keen to invest. This is probably our bird or our force around by the stage. And it was all looking good. There was a particular investor who was really keen to lead out. We were fine with that. They were doing due diligence. Got to the stage where every other investor in the round had signed on. They were like super excited. They'd wired the money into our bank accounts already. They'd signed all the long docs, but the lead investor hadn't. And about two days before they were due to sign and get all the money into our account,

they came back and said, look, this is going great. But essentially, we think we can get a better deal. going to cut your valuation by 50%. It was a huge surprise and totally screwed up the entire round. All the other investors were like, what the hell are you doing? My co-founder, Malin Cliff, pretty much jumped on a plane that night to go to Silicon Valley, rallied around a whole bunch of other investors, found a new lead investor, took them about a week. This was like the week right before Christmas. It was incredibly stressful, incredibly tumultuous. We eventually came out of it better. We actually got better terms on the deal that we came up with. That investor has

kind of fallen to the wayside now. And it was a real learning moment for us in terms of how to approach fundraising and also how to be totally independent. And that's one of the reasons why we've focused on profitability for so long now. We've been profitable to spend the seven years, and one of the reasons is that we never want to be put in the situation where we have to go someone, have to go to someone for money to ensure the survival of business. And being profitable means that we never have to do that. We can always do it on our own terms and in our own time. This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features,

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That's ATTIO.com slash Lenny. Something that I've heard from one year investors actually will not be named is that at your board meetings, you have one slide on the financials of the business, and then the rest of the deck is product updates, the roadmap. I think this is very rare, especially for companies at your stage that become really focused on financials and the business from kind of the CFO perspective,

and a lot of founders lose sight of the product. Can you just talk about this element of how you all think about the product that's so central to the business? I think one key thing is that we don't know it's very rare. Like we approach a board meeting, just like we do anything, we craft the experience about how we think it should be and how we think it's going to be useful. So we're just like our board meetings or our product meetings or the way that we do launches, like we have shaped that in the image that we want it to be and in the way that we think it's going to be most effective. We've always been an incredibly product-led company.

We've always think first and foremost about the product. That was the whole genesis of Canber itself, having a product that we thought people would love to use and desperately needed to get out into the world. And that's the lens that we approach everything through. In terms of board meetings, I think it's been very helpful that our financials and our growth have been amazing for so many years that we don't need to focus on it,

and we can just have that one slide with the graph going up and up and to the right. We've also attracted investors who believe in us and who understand that us driving product and getting as much product value out to our customers is probably the most important thing we can be doing. So that's why the board meetings do focus on that, because what we are launching in the product, what's ahead is really determining the success of the company, Obviously, financials are important and you can do a bunch of lever pulling and thinking about margins and all that kind of stuff.

But product is at the end of the day the most important thing to Canva and the thing that's going to help us stand out and continue to have success. I really like this point you made about how you didn't know any better almost. And it reminds me of something else I heard about Canva is it took you guys a long time to hire outside execs. Almost all your leaders are homegrown. And it took you a long time to even hire outside of Australia. It's even higher in the U.S. Can you just talk about why that's been so important and just kind of the impact that has come out of hiring people internally and helping people be promoted internally? One thing really focus on is team and culture.

I think you can probably bring in the world's best person at X, Y, and Z. But if they're not fitting into your team and understanding your culture and have the same passion and vision that you do, they're not going to succeed. So it's super important that we have people along with us for the ride. And that might mean, you know, everyone at Canver is awesome. They might not be the number one person in the world for that particular thing, but they get more done than the number one person could because they've built that trust and that safety with their team. They know how to communicate their ideas.

They know how to bring other people along with them and lay out a vision in the way that we understand it at Canva. And that is a critical thing to building a great company, I think, is having that alignment across everyone, across your product teams, across your marketing teams, across your customer happiness. They all need to be aligned and we all need to be rowing in the same direction. We have brought in leaders and some of them have been incredibly successful. We have brought in leaders and they've exited the company after a few months because there wasn't that fit and they didn't manage to figure out or understand what Canva was and how to work within this

big ecosystem now. We've got 4,500 employees now, and it's not just a matter of you coming in and bringing all your ideas. You also need to work together with all the other leaders that we have and the team that's surrounding you. As it lends into what is important, Canva, when you say that they didn't understand what Canva is, what's something that kind of doesn't click for people a lot of times that forces them to not to be exited potentially? What is it that's so maybe unique or important to the way all think about stuff? I have this theory that the type of product you're building very much influences the way that you think.

And this kind of stemmed out of a chat I was having with one of the product leaders at Spotify. And they said that at Spotify, they do an incredible amount of talking about problems. Like they'll have a meeting, they'll talk about this new product feature and they'll just hash it out through conversation. And I kind of imagine that that was because Spotify is a very auditory product. Everyone there thinks about music, sound, podcasts, like that is their mindset. At Canva, we're all about visual communications. It's pitch decks, it's social media posts, it's video, it's t-shirts that you can make.

And that's how we think about things in a very visual manner. So one of the things that's very particular about Canva is really setting visions. And I mean visions, not just in the sense of looking forward two, three years, but also visions in the very visual sense. We need to be able to see it. We need mockups. We need prototypes. You need to get that idea out of your head and present it to someone in a visual form

that helps you talk about and communicate about it. That's one aspect of why some people, I think, don't land on their feet of camera because they aren't necessarily visual thinkers and they don't end up communicating what they want to do in a visual way to the rest of people. at Canva. Another way is that, you know, the way that we've grown, the way that we've built product has been quite idiosyncratic over the years. And as I said, we've learned so much just through doing and established our processes. So, and I think in any system, if someone comes out from the outside with preconceived notions or this idea that they're an expert and tries

to bring that in, it's going to be rejected. So you really need to work. together and I think my the advice that I have to give to people coming to Canberra is just listen for a couple of months like figure out what is really working at Canber and why it works before you try and change it we're very open to change and to new ideas but just coming in wholesale and totally changing the process just because that's what you've done somewhere else isn't going to get you the most level of this that makes so much sense we're talking about cultural elements and say one more question around culture I saw in a video interview,

you did once about how you love this concept of giving away your Legos. That's kind of part of your culture and the culture of Canva broadly, potentially, and this was originally popularized by Molly Graham in this first round review article. That's something you still believe in. And if so, can you just describe that concept briefly? Because a lot of people haven't actually heard about this. Yeah, Molly wrote a great article, which I actually refer to everyone who joins Canva to in the,

the cultural onboarding session, which I give them. So I run everyone through the culture at Canva and what they can expect over the next few years they work here. And one of those sections is on giving away your Lego. And it's really important to us because part of being in a startup is scaling when you're scaling from zero years to a million to 100 million. And when you're scaling from three founders to 10 employees to 100 employees to 4,000 employees, like you're scaling everything from the product to the internal processes you have, the finance team paying people, how you deal with user feedback, everything's just constantly growing, growing, growing. And I think this is slightly different to a traditional job where you get good at the

thing that you always do and you try and turn that into a process that just continually works all the time. At a startup, you just have to be changing. And we want people who are flexible, you can bring new ideas, you can go to that next level. You can think about not just a million people, but 10 million people, 100 million people, a billion people using the product, and to constantly ratchet up that multiplier, you need to change yourself,

which means that you probably need to give away some of the stuff that you're doing now in order to get to that next level. If you're the first email copyrighter at Canva, you can get away from writing all the emails for the first year, maybe, but when you're writing emails for 100 million people in 190 different countries,

in 100 different languages, all at different stages of their journey through using Canva from beginners to intermediates to experts, that just massively multiplies the complexity of the job that you have to do. And if you're trying to write every single one of those emails, you have no chance of scaling. You need to think about who you're going to bring in to help you, what systems you're going to introduce,

what are the processes needed, to get 100 different languages translated every time you send out an email and that requires you to hand off that stuff. You need to maybe stop writing every single email, give that to someone else. Be comfortable with doing that because you often build up a lot of self-identity and doing that and you get a lot of joy out of it. That's why you're a writer in the first place. But finding joy and the other things of building a team, passing on your experience, helping other people do great writing or great product building or great engineering is really what giving way your Lego is about. And we still encourage everyone to do that, to think about those moments where they need to

level up in their impact, how they can bring their team along with them, how they can pass on their experience and help everyone really have a tremendous impact with the skills that they have. I think a lot of people and a lot of companies struggle with this idea. And I'm curious if there's something you've learned about how to actually implement this. Is it just like, hey, go read this article and I might bring it up sometimes when things are changing and there's a reorg? Or is there anything even deeper of just this is a cultural element of like we are constantly giving up our legos, giving up things that we own? Probably the deeper thing I think is giving people opportunity. So you can talk about growth and just say, please grow.

That's not going to be terribly effective. But giving them the opportunity and the support to do so is super important. We have a system we call coaching at Canva where you have a system we call coaching at Canva, where you have a coach and they're constantly working with you to look at your skills, how you can improve each of those individual skills, but also what it is that you're actually doing. And when it might be time to move on to the next level, say you're just doing a product role in this particular product, then now you need to be a coach of other product managers and help them build products.

Like understanding those pivot points is really important. And our coaches help everyone at Canva. everyone at Canva has a coach that is constantly thinking about this aspect of their personal growth. And finding those opportunities where you can kind of push someone to do something that they haven't done before or to expand upon an idea that they've had and give them ownership of that idea is super important. So when people do come to us with an amazing product idea or a feature that they want to build or an entire team that they think should be spun up, we really listen to them.

and if it makes sense, we say go and do that. Go and build that part of the product. Grab a couple of people and start building video at Canva. Do that thing that you're talking about. And I think if you give them an opportunity and a little push to go beyond what they think they're comfortable with right now, that is the best way to drive growth in your team. Okay, there's two things I want to follow up on there.

One is this coaching concept? I have never heard of this. So how does that work? Do they have a manager? they have coach and who's this coach? We don't really have managers. So your coach is the person who thinks about you in a specialty sense. So we have specialties, engineering, product, design,

you know, tens of different specialties across Canva. And your coach really helps. Your coach is a similar specialty lead. So if you're a product manager, they're a product manager. So they know the skills that you have to use. They know the trajectory that you could possibly grow into. They know the structures that are around Canva that you could slot into when you want to go to the next level.

And your coach constantly checks in with you, has sessions, might help you with the strategy doc, might have a one-on-one with you. They're just constantly thinking about those ways that you can grow and improve at Canva. And then we have probably more of a, I would say, a collegiate managerial circle of colleagues who help you, do 360 feedback, all that kind of stuff. So that's the structure we've arrived on, and it's worked pretty well for us, and it was driven actually by a formative coaching experience

that we had as founders quite a few years ago from an external coach, and we decided to bring that into Canberra as a whole philosophy. Okay, and these coaches, are they like professional coaches, or there are people in the company that are like, I will be a coach for this function? They're people in the company, so we've got probably close to 800 or 1,000 coaches now. Amber. We do have like very specific coaches who are just coaches and they can drop into any

situation. They're not product managers. They're not designers. But they're relatively few. I think we've got probably five of those type of coaches and they, they just work in very special situations. But what we're focused on is enabling the broader circle of coaches to those 800 people to understand what it is to be a coach and have the skills of coaching. So we focus a lot on teaching them the skills of coaching, how to build a growth mindset in their coaches, all the skills that you need. So yeah, it's a massive part of Canva. And so there's like a product management coach and this person helps all the PMs to become better at the craft of product management. Yeah. Wow. So interesting. Okay. And then the performance review piece,

how does that work? Yeah, so your coach feeds into that, but we also do 360 feedback from all the people that you work with, and we do that on regular cycles. As with everything in Canva, the cadence of those cycles has changed over the years. But now we do that every six months. We talked about product for a little bit. I want to spend a little time on product management. I'm curious just how you think about product management. There's this kind of constant debate across tech companies about the value of PMs. Are we better with more PMs or too many PMs? What are PMs do for you? You're a chief product officer. Where do you find product managers bring the most value to Canva.

And then you just have thought on the future of the field of product management? I don't know. It's kind of one of those things that I don't want to quantify. Like, I don't want to put it in a box and say, this is product management, because I've worked at a few places now. I've actually only had one real job, which was at Google, where I got to experience product managers the Google way. And the way that they do product management is totally different to the way that we do it.

Canva and that's partially by design because I didn't want to do product management like they did at Google and that's because of the different cultures that they have like Google's a fantastically engineering driven culture and the way that they think about product management is mostly in the technical sense of like here's a piece of technology what can that technology do how do we scale it at Canva we focus a lot on experience and as I said before it's a very visual experience So we require a different product management process, but also a different product management mindset. I think we probably did that more from the ground up than a lot of other startups, just because Melon Cliff were a lot less, I think, inculcated into how product management is done other places.

I had a bit of experience from Google, but was still fairly independent in my thinking. So we almost went back to first principles on how product management should be done. And to be honest, we didn't want to have the term product manager for a long, long time. It wasn't until about year six or seven where we actually had product managers. We decided to cave just because it was easy to explain to people. But it also took us four or five years before we even had another product owner who wasn't us. part of that was us giving up our Lego and I think we took a little too long to give up our Lego on that one but the other part of it was us figuring out exactly what we wanted and how we built product

and how to communicate that to someone else and get them to do it in a similar way and work with the teams in the way that we did. For us, product managers are really connectors. They connect the team, ideas, data, a whole bunch different things. And it's very messy. There's no exact recipe for how to do it. But connecting these disparate areas and moving the team and the technology and our customers to a new place, a new vision is essentially what product managers do. And it's going to involve compromise.

It's going to involve changes in the feature scope. it's going to involve timelines of like, okay, we can't shift it in May, it's going to have to be July, let's figure out what we can do with marketing to make that work. Like, it's this constant movement and connection and reorienting around the constraints that have suddenly arisen in the last week. And that's where we see great product managers operating in Canva. You mentioned Mel and Cliff. For folks that don't know, they're the other two co-founders of Canva, and they were dating

when they were starting Canva. I think it was called Fusion Books back in the day before Canva. Now they're married. What's it like working with a married couple as the other two co-founders? And is there something they did well that didn't make you feel like this third wheel person

that isn't married? It is always tricky working with a couple because they're on at 24-7. When you leave the office and they head home, they're still talking about product, business strategy, all the things. I think they've done a really good job of evolving those ideas overnight through the conversations they have over dinner and walking,

but then bringing that back the next day and being transparent about that. And that's super important if you're working in that kind of dynamic. There are definitely moments where I have missed out on a memo and stuff has kind of rapidly proceeded. And I think I've just gotten used to that and gotten used to catching up really quickly, having a word with them on the side to clarify what the motivation is here, and just constantly maintaining that alignment.

And I think it happens in any partnership or team. Like there's moments where there's small alignments. There's more tectonic stuff that happens over months or years. And you need to realign at some stage. I think it happens with friendships. It happens with my wife. It happens with our product teams. there's always these moments where you need to re-communicate things and relay the land of it.

And I think we've been great at doing that as co-founders, even for the small things and also for the more technonic things. This episode is brought to you by Vanta. When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast. Now you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC2, ISO-271, HIPAA, and more with a single platform, VANTA. VANTA's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside

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So it took you a year to build a MVP, essentially, and I know you have some strong opinions on how long to wait, how MVPs are often way too early. You talk about that, just why you guys waited so long before launching. Clearly worked out. And so I'm just curious your lessons from that experience. Yeah, so when we launched or when we were building, the Lean Startup book came out.

So that was all anyone talked to us about investors, other people building products trying to give us advice. They were like, just get something out the door as crappy as it is just to get in front of users. I think for us, the product is the experience and giving people a great experience is an interesting. intrinsic part of the product. It's also an intrinsic part of how we've grown. People having a good experience of being enthusiastic about it has been how we've spread the word of Canva. An organic

word of mouth growth was the biggest driver of Canva's growth for many years and probably still is, I think, people just telling someone else to jump on this amazing product. I don't think we would have had that if we just put our pretty crappy product that people didn't have joy in using. Sure, it might have got the job done, but if they weren't excited about using it the next day, then that wasn't a bar that we wanted to hit. So we did hold off on launching the product for a long time, and investors did ask us many, many times, when are you launching? Can you just get this thing out the door? But we had done enough research. We knew the problem space. We knew the problem space. We knew what people wanted from the product.

Part of that was due to the work that Melanchcliff did on Fusion Books in kind of a very constrained area. They had looked at school yearbooks. They had built an experience for that. And they had observed what worked and didn't work and how they might scale that into a bigger product. It also worked for me who had worked in a lot of creative tools and built a lot of creative tools over the previous 15 years. So I had a lot of understanding how people interactive with these systems and the experience that we wanted to build. So we did hold off. And the product we launched, we obviously weren't happy with.

You have to launch something that you're not completely happy with. You know all the rough edges. But you're releasing it knowing that the rough edges are going to be outweighed by the joyful experience. We still did a ton of user testing. It's not like we just launched this thing blind and said, we hope people like it. We did a ton of user testing. We did a ton of user research into the features that people wanted.

And we built that up over time. And, you know, one year to me actually seems like short time. A lot of people think it's a long time. But one year was just enough for us to scrape in with an experience that people did truly love when we launched. And particularly the market that we went after when we launched really loved it. I'm curious just what advice you share with founders when they're asking you how long, how joyous does this first version have to be? How long? How awesome does my MVP need to be? One thread I picked up as you were describing your experiences, you all had deep experience in the space. So you kind of knew what you wanted to build. It wasn't like this dark forest of exploration is like, we know what we want generally. You have kind of advice you share with founders of how awesome their MVP should be. And when it takes, when it's worth spending a year or two or three or three, three building it.

There's a couple of points in there. First is that even today, we build for ourselves. And I think this is advice that probably a lot of product people wouldn't give you is that you shouldn't build for yourself, you should build for your customer. But I think we're fortunate that we are our customer. And the problems we experience are the problems that hundreds of millions, billions of people experience. I think that is maybe a fortunate part of just the problem area that we're interested in,

but it has enabled us to move really quickly on the product because we can quickly know what's working in the product, whether this feature is useful, whether it's reached that bar of a great experience. So that's one aspect of it, and I think that is also about being passionate. Like you entering an area that you're extremely passionate about. I often hear people are like, I want to do a team. tech startup, what is the best area I should focus on to build a product in? And to me, that is totally the wrong way to go about building a company that you're going to spend the next 10, 20 years

in. If you're in an area that you aren't particularly passionate about, but you see the opportunity to make a bit of money or have some external measure of success, that is a terrible way to go about being a founder because you're going to hit these rock bottom dark places. And if the people, passion isn't driving you through that, you are going to have incredibly hard time getting to the next step. So that's probably the first area I'd talk about in terms of knowing when a product is amazing. The second one is that it really needs to spark joy and delight in people and just pure excitement. It can't just be like, oh yeah, this is a useful tool for me. It needs to light up their eyes. They need to be like, how do I sign up for this thing tomorrow? How do I get it? How do I

pay for it? And they need to want to talk to other people about it because in the early days of your startup, you don't have marketing dollars. You don't have channels which you can go to to immediately get access to a million people. You need to really foster the first people that are going to use your product. And they're going to be the ones that are going to spread it and then are going to set the foundations for your growth. Interesting. So piece of advice number one is work on something you really want yourself that you're excited to work on. Two is get it to a place where it lights up people's eyes. They're just like so excited with this thing. For that second part, what was it for Canva? Was it just that it's even possible to do this sort of design in a browser?

It was 2012, 2013 when we launched. And visual content, was still in its infancy. Instagram had only been out a couple of years. Pinterest was on the rise. People were just getting used to creating visuals. And it was kind of hived off to a very select few because to create those visuals, you needed to afford some expensive software,

know how to use that expensive software, nowhere to go to get fonts and photos and illustrations, know how to put that together into something that looked decent, and then ship that off. It was something that only 1% of the world, could do and democratizing design empowering the world to design is cammer's entire mission and we saw this sweet spot at the time in social media it wasn't what we set out to go after we set out to democratize design to bring design to literally everyone in the world and to everything that they're doing

but through the user testing that we did through the levels of excitement that we saw from different people. Social media managers really came to the fore at that time. So we knew that they really fit what we could ship right now. We didn't ship a presentation product or a T-shirt builder in our very first version. We shipped a thing that could make square landscape and portrait graphics and blog post graphics. And that got a particular segment of society excited. We added on all the things afterwards because that was part of our vision. And ultimately what we wanted to build, but with a team of 10 people in the space of a year, building something that really got social media managed, excited was what we could pull off.

And that's something we kind of realized in the last six months of that launch year. We didn't quite know who our audience was going to be. We knew it was a tool that anyone could use. But in that last six months of user testing and refining is when we really identified that first target market and we just blent into it. There's so many things you all nailed early on. One of them is the focus persona slash ICP, which is, as you said, social media managers.

Just to take the lesson from that, you basically saw that segment getting the most excited about the product. And that told you, let's focus on this. Is that right? Exactly. And was it like an order of magnitude more excited? Like, what do people look for there that tells them this is the one? Is it like some, what did you see there other than just more excitement?

It was just incredibly emotive language. Like, like sheer joy, particularly coming into the product. We worked a lot on the onboarding process in the last couple of months of launch. And that was really pivotal because the product features were kind of there. You could add text, you could add images, you can change the color of things. You can move stuff around the page. it was a simple but powerful product but there was this thing holding people back from actually using it and understanding what Canva could do for them and we use a test of the onboarding

of Canva a ton actually user testing.com and just kind of launched there which really unlocked us because we didn't have to do these big formal labs or anything like that we could just go online and get results in the space of half an hour. So that was like a pivotal unlock for our product process and that's something we still employ today. And through that, we tailored the onboarding process to get people excited and to understand the deeper goal with Canberra and the deeper impact it could let them have.

It wasn't just about letting them put a pretty picture on the page. It really unlocked their ideas and let them do things they couldn't do before. and we shaped the onboarding to do that. And it resonated the most with social media managers because they had this massive content need that they couldn't really service. And in the first minute of Canva with the right onboarding, it just unlocked the whole realm of productivity and impact

that they didn't have before. And that's why they got super excited. We talk a lot in this podcast about the power of onboarding and the impact that can have on retention and everything down funnel. Do you remember what the unlock was in terms of onboarding and getting more people activated? Is there anything that's something that other people can learn from? For us, it was taking that first step. Like, particularly with Canva and any, I think, creative tool, there's a real fear of the blank page.

So prior to like any onboarding thought from us, we had a blank page, we had a few coachmarks that said, here's where you do this, here's where you do this. And then they'd be left on this blank page and people would freak out. So what we really focused on was just taking that first step and then the next step and then the next step. And before they knew it, they'd built a design. And the way that we did that was to encourage a really simple step. So the first one was click on this search box and search for a monkey. It literally said that.

Searching for a monkey is something you probably don't do in most tools. So it was a little surprising, which was a good kind of in-road. But it was still super easy. Like anyone can type monkey and then you type that in and it comes up with this whole sway the monkey images, which kind of look hilarious. And just dragging one of those out onto a page is another simple step. And we just got people to walk through that, keeping their interest up, keeping the bar of effort quite low. But within three or four steps, they'd built up something that they'd never been able to do before. And it surprised them.

The words that we literally got out of user testing were I didn't know I could be a desire. and that was what we managed to do through several rounds of refinement on the onboarding process. So it's lowering the barriers to entry and also increasing the amount of delight. And I think those two things are what you should be aiming for with your onboarding. That's an incredible insight. Is there a video of that original onboarding out there? Or is the current one still similar? The current one isn't similar.

We have constantly gone back to it because it performs really well. We do actually apply the same approach of little steps building up into bigger accomplishments. And that's actually rolled out through our last round of launches for the last couple of years through something we call learn and play. So with every launch that we do now, we think about how to teach people about that feature and how to get them really involved in it. We have a whole series of learn and plays where when we launch AI photo editing, they can try it out right then and there. They've got some great content that they can immediately operate on, and it's a super simple step for them to type in a prompt

and see the result of that. I think an interesting and really important takeaway here is you built a very delightful, incredible, innovative product, but it still didn't work until you figured out the onboarding and that you needed to figure out the persona to focus on. All those things end up being incredibly important. It's not just built something amazing and delightful. Definitely.

Staying within this realm of growth, you've grown in large part thanks to this incredibly successful SEO template strategy. You mentioned in an interview there's this guy, Andre, that came on early and helped you figure this stuff out. Is that true? And if so, what was kind of the key insight that he had that led to such a great success in terms of growth for you all? Andre, Andre is an amazing guy. He's actually been in and out of Canva three or four times now. Keep pulling him back. Yeah, keep pulling him back.

We originally found him he came from a startup that was kind of going under here in Sydney. And he just, we had thought about SEO. We knew it was this thing that you could use. And I think in a couple of our pitch decks, we had SEO as a whole growth channel that we were going to execute upon in order for investors to make a ton of money. But we pretty much knew nothing about it. and it was kind of sitting away in our backlog of things to do in the first couple of years of Canva.

And we came across Andre and he just really crystallized what SEO was and how it would actually help us grow. So we brought him on. He rolled out his strategy and it was fantastically effective. It was also incredibly cheap and it was super easy for us to do ourselves. He set up a whole team of people who looked at people's most people's most people's most. motivations and the top jobs to be done that Canva could service. He then mapped that through the entire experience of going into Google, typing a search query, getting that search query, seeing that it was a great result, like first they'd get into the top result, but then also the experience after they landed

on Canva. So if they search for want to make a Halloween poster, the top Google result would be Canva, they'd click on it, they'd land on the Halloween poster landing page, it would tell them how they were going to do it, show you how the product was going to do that, have a button there that immediately took them into a Halloween poster template, went through our fantastic onboarding of like customizing that poster really simply, and then they would hit done, download the image, and they had a fantastic experience. And he thought through that whole end-to-end flow from first landing on Google and typing into the search box through to that magic moment where they're like,

Cammer just helped me do something amazing and I want to do it again. Amazing. Okay, so a few things I'm hearing there. One is figure out the jobs to be done of potential users, figuring out where their search volume, figure out ones you can actually solve for them, like say a Halloween poster, and then think about that experience end to end from search to landing.

And obviously you have to deliver on that promise. You have to actually show them a really cool Halloween poster that they can create, right? Yeah, again, it's like, product lead truly means product lead because you can't just SEO the hell out of something there is a terrible experience. So tying that product experience at the end of the SEO journey is just as important as the technicalities of SEO itself. And Andre really harnessed the whole spectrum of that to produce the end experience, which ultimately ended up with an active user having a delightful experience. Is there anything else along those lines that was really

surprising to you, really, wow, that worked a lot better than I thought, because it's probably one of the most well-executed, most successful SEO strategies in history. And I'm so curious, just if there's anything else there, that's just like, oh, wow, that was really effective, and I didn't expect that. There's, you know, there's a ton in the SEO realm that Andre drove that can get quite technical, but I think one of the other kind of pivotal growth moments for us was internationalization. I think as an Australian company, we're kind of fortunate in that Australia isn't a great market to focus on.

We've got 25 million people here. It's okay, but it's not sizable. It's not going to make you a huge success. Whereas probably a startup that starts in the US, we'll tend to focus on the US because it's a huge market, it's a huge monetizable market, and you can entirely create a great company that just services the US. But from Australia, we need to think about the world. And that meant that we very quickly got into internationalization.

We started localizing and internationallyizing our products three years after launch, which is quite early compared to a lot of other companies. And we tackled it with real bigger. We had a goal of being in five different languages within the first year of localization, and we actually hit eight in that first year. And then we set ourselves a goal of being in 100 different languages the next year. and the internationalization team smashed that goal by the end of 2017. And it has drastically changed Canber's growth trajectory

because being in other languages offering a localized experience, something that people in Brazil or Indonesia or Spain or Poland can authentically feel like they're using a product that's made for them, has totally changed who our market is, how quickly we can grow, and the way the products used. Internationalizing into Brazilian Portuguese meant that we had to focus a ton more on the Android mobile experience,

which was really different for us because we focused a lot on the desktop experience for the first four years. People also in Brazil run entire businesses from their mobile phone, and the types of content they're creating to interact with their audience is totally different. So it's actually shaped our product

and changed our product trajectory as a result of thinking about internationalization. and it is just fueled tremendous growth. Brazil, India, Indonesia, they're all in our top five markets, and they grow way faster than the US does. And I know you went international, like in your four,

something like that, which is really early for a company. It also makes sense for SEO plus internationalization makes tons of sense. It's a lot more surface area. Okay, and we have two more questions. One is around your freemium strategy. Another thing you,

all nailed. There's just this, you're both seeing incredible growth and incredible monetization. I'm curious what your kind of philosophy is on what to include in the free plan versus what people should pay for because it's clearly worked out great. Premium for us wasn't so much a gross strategy or a monetization strategy, as much as it spoke to our core mission of empowering the world to design. We truly want to democratize design, which means we want to get design into the hands of as many people as we can because we think that the world is a better place when more people can create really rich visual content. So Freemium just made sense to us because we could get the tool into billions of people's hands and they wouldn't

necessarily have to pay for it. Much of the world can't pay for products because they just don't have access to that level of income. So providing that equality was really important to us. But also you need to build a viable business because you can't help the world design if you can't afford to keep the lights on. So Freemium just really hit this sweet spot for us between philosophy and business building. So it was always part of our plan since day one. We initially had element sales as our business model. So when we first went to pitch Canberra, it was all about create a design, anything you use in that design will cost you a dollar. So if you dragged in a monkey and you'll wanted to export that whole design, you'd have to pay a dollar for the money. I've done that many

times. Yes. It was really exciting to investors at the time. It was also really exciting to the content creators who were giving us the monkeys to put into our product. It was a totally new business model. It unlocked, I think, an area that a lot of people were unfamiliar with, which was stock photography. Most people had not paid $100,500 for photo, and that really held them back from being visual content creators. So it was a really unique innovation for us. And for the first two years of Canva's life, that was how we derived our revenue. It grew pretty well. It was still like, I don't know, 30% month on month growth in terms of revenue, but like you can do that in the early stages of a startup. It wasn't until we introduced our first subscription product that we saw

really hockey stick growth in our revenue. And that was always the plan to launch a subscription product, but as with many things, it was a vision that we didn't quite have meat around the bones. So we knew we wanted to put in a subscription, what exactly that subscription would look like. We didn't quite know. And through the first couple of years of Canva, we started noticing what people were asking for, what they would be more likely to pay in a subscription for. And that formed the first few features that became what was then called Canva for work,

which is now called Canva Pro. And we launched our first subscription, I think about three years after we launched the first product. And we just rapidly saw the revenue from the subscription start overtaking the $1 image payments. So much so that three or four years later, we made image element payments part of the subscription. And again, that was like a second hockey stick in Gros

in terms of the revenue from the subscription because all you can eat images inside the Canva Pro subscription with just amazing value ads for people. And I don't even know if we get any revenue from image element sales now. It's all about just going into this subscription. Amazing. Just hockey stick after hockey sticks. Speaking of another hockey stick, I want to talk about AI.

A whole hockey team of hockey sticks. Just need that choir hockey teams. I want to talk about AI something on the top of everyone's minds these days, it's another area you guys have nailed. You're doing amazing work with AI. It's providing actual value and business impact. I hear you have an amazing internal AI ops team.

Is there anything that you've learned so far that you can share by just how to integrate AI successfully and effectively into a product? As a technology company, you always just need to be constantly evolving and using the best technology. and when we started that was mobile phones and cloud computing like they were the innovations that came in that really unlocked Canva. AI is the next decade, I think, of innovation.

It's the next pivotal piece of technology that helps you build better products. But it also can't just be the basis for your product. You can't just be a product that's purely built on AI, on being a rapper around an LLM or something like that. You still need to think about what it is that people want to do. and how you build a product that actually meets that need. It isn't just about slapping a chat bot on something that already used. It's about deeply thinking about how AI can help them get to that goal even faster. And we view AI as the next way of democratizing design and empowering the world to design,

helping more people design, helping more people design quicker, helping more people design quicker with better quality. And that's how we approach every aspect of including AI in the key. camera platform. We've had a team of machine learning engineers for probably seven years now. I think their work has become a lot more visual now and more customer-facing. Way back when they were just doing recommendation engines inside our emails and our homepage and suggesting templates to you. But now they get to work with some really cool technology, which lets them produce images for people and create designs and summarize text and train.

translate to 100 different languages. It's really stuff that you can put directly in front of customers now. And that's super exciting. Over the last couple of years, we've built up more and more visual AI experts inside Canva. And we approach AI inside the product through three kind of pillars. First of these is that we need to build some of our own AI tech. And we focus on building the AI tech that we have the biggest advantage in

that we have the most data that we can put into it, the most insights, the most criticality to our product in our business. So we have teams building our own AI models around design and images and that kind of stuff. Second pillar is just finding the world's best AI people to partner with. And there's a whole bunch of stuff that you don't need to internalize in your company. You don't need to create an LLM because it's a commodity thing now and there's a bunch providers who can do it way better and have way more resources to do it with than you do. So finding a great partner like OpenAI, we partnered with Runway ML to do video generation, like finding the world's best and bringing them into your product with a great integration,

the second pillar. And for us, the third pillar is our app ecosystem. So we're fortunate now. We've got 170 million people using the product every single month. We have quite an audience that people want access to. And through our app developer ecosystem, they can build apps which directly integrate with the Canva product that give them access to those hundreds of millions of people. And people are quite eager to do that now. And we've seen huge uptake in that from AI developers who have included stuff in Canva, from music generators to virtual avatars that can present your presentation to you, to a whole slew of things. And those three pillars have, I think, allowed us to create a really coherent experience

and one that still keeps the focus on what people want to do, how to help them reach their big goals in a way that doesn't just push technology in the face, in a way that just is part of the experience and is a natural way of getting them to where they want to go. I was also looking at the GPT story of the fifth most popular GPT, custom GPT, where people can generate logos using it. So maybe that's driving some growth too. I know you wanted to share something that you guys are launching or have launched by the time this episode comes out.

Is that true? Yeah, so we've got a big event in Los Angeles in a couple of months. It's our Canva Create, which is kind of an evolution of the season openness that we used to do. So season openers are no longer just inside Canva now. We actually invite our whole community in and we're going to have probably about 4,000 people in the theatre in LA and a couple of

million online. And we're really going to be pulling the covers off pretty much the next decade of Canva. We've focused for the first decade of Canva on unlocking individuals and small businesses, giving them the tools that they need to design and to express themselves and create visual content. And as Canver has grown and people have. gotten used to creating this stuff, they've invited their teams in. They now collaborate with people on presentations, on Canva videos, on swag t-shirts that they need to make for their event next week. And as more and more people are using Canva together, it's picking up a lot of steam.

We've got 95% of the Fortune 500 using Canva. We've got huge teams of thousands of people using Canva. And this has really opened our eyes to not only the Enterprise, opportunity, but also just the way to redesign the way people work. And that is what the event at the end of May is about. It's really redesigning work for a whole number of different verticals, from marketing to sales, to HR, to IT, to creatives that work inside large teams, large organizations, large enterprises. So we've kind of redesigned Canva for this collaborative enterprise age. So we'll be pulling the covers off that, alongside work kits, which are a whole verticalized experiences for people inside marketing and sales and HR that want to use Canva, as well as a bunch of

improvements to our AI products and an actual enterprise skew that we're launching as well. So through this growth and through getting to understand the needs of CIOs and heads of security at enterprises, we've realized that there pretty much needs to be a new enterprise product of Canva that meets the needs of hugely scaled teams. It's been quite different for us because we have scaled from those individuals just using the product all by themselves and organically growing the teams and now looking at it from a tops down lens and building that enterprise product is what we've been focused on for the last couple of years. So we'll be pulling the covers off that as well in LA.

I see another hockey stick approaching. I'm excited of all these things you're launching. What a business you've built. I feel like it's still way too under the radar, even though it's this juggernaut. Nice work, Cameron and team. Two more questions I ask everyone. Where can folks find you online,

and how can listeners be useful to you? They can find me online at the maninblue.com, which is my blog that's been around for 24 years now. What was the other question? How can listeners be useful to you? I love hearing their design stories, how design has helped unlock something for them, whether it's starting their first business or helping a nonprofit that they volunteer at. I just love bumping into someone in the street and seeing the joy of design line up in their eyes.

So please do that whenever you see me. Beautiful. Cam, you're awesome. Canva is awesome. Go check out Canva.com. Easy to find. Thanks for being here. Thanks, see you soon. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenniespodcast.com.

See you in the next episode.