Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - Lessons on building product sense, navigating AI, optimizing the first mile, and making it through the messy middle | Scott Belsky (Adobe, Behance)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Yeah, you know, I've had this conversation quite a few times over the years with founders and friends who were running a company going sideways or worse and have had this question. Should I continue or not? I always have the same answer. I basically say, how much conviction do you have in the solution you're building? I know in the beginning, before you knew all you know now, you had tons of conviction. That's what caused you to leave your job. Now knowing all you know, do you have more or less conviction in the problem and the, and the, the solution you're building. And I'll tell you, like, I get different answers. You know, some people are like,

Starting point is 00:00:34 oh, Scott, I mean, I have more conviction. Like all that I've learned, all the validation I've received from customers, we just haven't figured it out yet. It's driving me crazy. We've tried three times, and it's still like, each product fails, but I have more conviction than ever before. And for those people, I'm like, you know what? You're just in the messy middle. Stick with it. You know, this is par for the course. But, you know, oftentimes I'll hear, honestly, if I knew now, would I, If I knew then what I know now, I would not have done this. Like, holy shit. I'm like, then quit.

Starting point is 00:01:02 Like, your life is short. You have a great team. Pivot. Do something completely different. If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship. Welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experience as building and growing today's most successful products. Today, my guest is Scott Belski. Scott is an absolute product legend.

Starting point is 00:01:29 He's a former founder starting a company called B. Hans that he sold to Adobe, where he worked up the ranks to Chief Product Officer, and more recently to Chief Strategy Officer and Executive Vice President of Design and Emerging Products. He's also an author of the beloved book The Messy Middle. He's also an angel investor in companies like Pinterest, Uber, Airtable, Flexport, Warby Parker, and many more. In our wide-ranging conversation, Scott shares his advice on how to build product sense, why you should only build half the features that you want,

Starting point is 00:02:01 what it takes to build a successful consumer product, and we spend a lot of time on how AI is likely to change the world of product and the world broadly. Scott is such an insightful and articulate thinker, and I learned a lot from this conversation. With that, I bring you Scott Belski after a short word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Brain Trust, where the world's most innovative companies go to find talent fast

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Starting point is 00:04:52 Hey, Lenny, and it's great to be here. I don't know if you know this, but it's been a big goal of mine to get you on this podcast since the day I launched it. And so I'm really excited that you're here. I wanted to start with your role at Adobe. So for the longest time, you were cheap product officer at Adobe. And then recently I noticed you shifted to this very complicated sounding role. I'm curious what this new role is and then why you made that shift. Well, in this new role, I'm overseeing strategy and corporate development.

Starting point is 00:05:22 all of design across the company and emerging products for the business. If you look back at the last five years or so, it really has been about getting our core products to the cloud, making them collaborative, making some critical and interesting opportunistic acquisitions over the years, ensuring that we have connectivity between the products, that we launched new web apps that meet new types of creatives. And that was an incredible,

Starting point is 00:05:52 year-year-old chapter now with the advent of AI and new and emerging fast-growing businesses we have, like the 3D and immersive space, the stock business and how that whole space is being changed by new technology. The idea of bringing that into an organization and being able to focus on that full-time was really exciting to me. So what is it that you're doing day-to-day now, just to even get it even more concrete. I'm curious what your days are looking like. Well, I think that it's the strategy of a company always needs to be iterated. And so being tasked with developing the strategy across the entire company, it's a really, you know, there's no shortage of opportunities and people to meet and things to think about there. Corporate development, certainly like new M&A stuff

Starting point is 00:06:37 and integration, all that sort of stuff, you know, falls under me as well. And I have a lot of feelings about that, having been an entrepreneur that went through integration myself. So it's kind of fun to be on the other side and try to improve it, you know, from that vantage point. On the design side, it spent a ton of time reviewing the design across every product and really trying to raise the bar for the experiences we're shipping. And that's a hard thing to do in a company that has a lot of legacy products, you know, and a lot of baggage that comes with them. And on the emerging product side, it's really about the new products we're bringing into the market and how to make them win. Something that comes up on this podcast a number of times is how

Starting point is 00:07:15 CPOs rarely last at a company. They stay, like Casey mentioned this and a few other people, they stay around for a couple of years. They're like the best they can do is just take a few swings at how things work, improve a few things. And then they, CEOs like, no, this isn't great. And then find someone else. What do you think has contributed to you surviving and lasting and thriving and, you know, taking on more and more responsibility at Adobe? Well, in the chief product officer role, I oversaw design, product, and engineering.

Starting point is 00:07:43 And I think part of the reason I was even interested in coming into the company and taking this role is that I felt like these boundaries between these functions are, you know, at best, artificial, at worst, like really constraining. And I always have felt like a lot of products win not because of the technology, but the user's experience of the technology. And so if you have an aligned team that gets that and makes decisions accordingly, I think you can ship back. better experiences. So a lot of the work I had to do was breaking some of these boundaries down over the years. And I think that a lot of chief product officer roles traditionally don't oversee engineering and sometimes don't even oversee design. And for me, that wouldn't be interesting. Zooming into product, if there's a mount rush more of insightful product thinkers, I feel like you'd be on it. And part of the reason is that you have this incredible product sense,

Starting point is 00:08:39 whatever that means, it's clear that you have strong product sense. And people, PMs often talk about the importance of Product Sense and how to build Product Sense. And I'm curious, how do you feel like you built your Product Sense? And what advice would you give to younger PMs looking to build Product Sense? First of all, one of the, I think, the biggest mistakes that teams make is they become very passionate about a solution to a problem they're trying to solve, as opposed to do everything they can to develop empathy for the customer that's suffering the problem. And oftentimes, the empathy gives you the solution, whereas the passion you have for whatever you think the solution is might be 30 degrees off

Starting point is 00:09:18 what the solution actually is. And so this development of empathy is a key part of it. And of course, as I think about the discipline of crafting product experiences, to me, it's all about psychology. It's about understanding the natural human tendencies that people have in their most primal moments. I talk a lot about the first mile experiences that we have across any product we use, whether we're a consumer or an enterprise user,

Starting point is 00:09:46 in the first 30 seconds of using a new product, you are lazy, vain, and selfish. You want to get it done super quickly. You want to look good to your colleagues or to your friends. You want to feel successful very quickly by engaging in this product. You don't want to have to watch a tour, read anything, really endure any learning curve whatsoever. Of course, if you can get people through the first 30 seconds,

Starting point is 00:10:09 you have so much opportunity to build a more lasting relationship, with that customer and have them understand your mission and the full potential of your product. But we need to kind of ground ourselves with the fact that that's really hard to do. It's fascinating to me that most teams spend the final mile of their time building the product considering the first mile of the customer's experience using the product. If you can just get more customers through that top of funnel, you are a world-class product team. Let's anchor ourselves on just doing that and let's use psychology to do so.

Starting point is 00:10:42 And just to make sure people understand, when you talk about the first mile, essentially, that's the onboarding flow, maybe to the activation moment. I think that's right. It's the onboarding flow. It's the initial experience. It's the defaults that you see. It's the orientation of where you are. So many products, you actually don't exactly know how you got to where you are and how to get home and where to get help. So I would say it's the onboarding, it's the orientation, and it's the defaults. you've been a constant and early advocate of investing in that part of the funnel. And it's interesting how often that comes up on this podcast when people think about how do we improve retention, how do we improve growth?

Starting point is 00:11:22 Often the biggest wins from stories that we get on this podcast are in that part of the flow. And so another data point to spend more time there. And I wanted to ask you, are you finding even at the stage of it like an Adobe, there's still lots of opportunity in the first mile? where do you find that it becomes less and less and less and then it's less important? The answer is lots of opportunity. The reason is because the customers change. Every new cohort of new customers is different. The new customers you have in the early stages of your product are typically more willing and forgiving customers.

Starting point is 00:11:55 And you might nail the onboarding process for them and then suddenly realize that, wait, it's not being as effective anymore. And the reason is because now you're engaging more of those pragmatist customers, those later stage customers who are initially, more skeptical, less forgiving, less willing to deal with your friction. And so you have to reimagine the onboarding process all over again. I mean, when you look at a product like Photoshop, for example, it used to cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars, right? Now you can get Photoshop for as little as 10 bucks a month. And so, of course, the funnel is a lot larger. A lot more people come in with creative desires without the skills or the tolerance to develop them. And so that dictates an entire change in the onboarding experience for a product like Photoshop.

Starting point is 00:12:37 It makes me think if something should share the CF Koda shared about how he's like, I don't really buy this idea of product market fit because you have product market fit with your existing users that love it and know about it. And you always don't have product market fit with the people you want to be used the product. And it's related to what you're talking about. Like the newest people joining have no idea what you're doing. I agree with that. And I actually think that the role of AI going forward will be. be to have applications increasingly meet us where we are. To this day, we've always had to generalize

Starting point is 00:13:08 onboarding experiences for the most part, for everyone. And I'm really excited about the day when products meet us where we are, you know, based on what type of user we are. I have a billion AI related questions for you. So I'm going to hold off just a bit. And I wanted to double click on the empathy piece. So you talk about how to become better at product sense, empathy and understanding the user's problems is really important. Do you have any advice for someone that wants to build that? What can they actually do to become more empathetic and build that part of their skill set? Well, the most humbling moments for me as a product leader have always been shoulder to shoulder to customers watching them actually go about their day. Not just use my product,

Starting point is 00:13:50 but go about their day. Because what you end up getting is context for a lot of data that you're missing. When customers are using your product, they're using it amidst everything else. around them. In the enterprise, it's all their other meetings and other products and pings that they're getting throughout the day. And as a consumer, it's between dealing with their kids or their loved ones or watching Netflix or whatever the case might be. And in order to really understand where the customer is and where their mentality is, you have to understand the context in which they're using your product. So part of developing empathy is being shoulder to shoulder and just encountering that reality alongside your customer. In that time, it just

Starting point is 00:14:30 gives you better intuition. It helps you understand more. And with empathy, we can then better create quote unquote for ourselves, right? Because by developing empathy for others, we're feeling what they're feeling. We can then be the customer. And of course, we all know, some of the best customers, some of the best products in the world are made when we are, you know, the makers are the customer. It makes me think of Mark Andreessen as this awesome quote that I always come back to that everyone's time is already allocated. They don't have time for your product. That's right. How do I find a new app? And by the way, as a related note, since I know, Lenny, you talk to a lot of gas around product-led growth, you know, and sorry if I'm skipping around here, but I think this is also, it's also relevant because everyone's trying to get their products to grow. And the other thing that perplexes me is that people expect product leaders, expect people to talk about a product being great. And people don't talk about a product doing exactly what they expected it to do. They talk about a product doing what they didn't expect. And,

Starting point is 00:15:30 you look at a product like Tesla. People are not going and talking about how they had a great drive today, but they're talking about the Easter egg they discovered on the dashboard or the cool new feature that they discovered that is associated with Christmas or whatever. And so it always is interesting to me, like in consumer and even enterprise products, maybe especially so, why aren't we optimizing for those things that people wouldn't expect the product to do as a way to get that surprise and delight,

Starting point is 00:16:01 to talk about it, to develop kind of a relationship with our products. I think that's another piece of the puzzle. That is really interesting and reminds me of something I just talked about with Gustav from Spotify, whose episode might come in out before this or after this, about how every great consumer product

Starting point is 00:16:18 pulls some kind of magic trick and feels like magic to you, like Spotify as an example. And I like that. Magic, you know, sort of a little mystery, a little intrigue, a little surprise. it's a classic trick that Hollywood uses all the time. Why don't we use it in our own products? So let me pull on that thread a little bit about just consumer products in general. You spent

Starting point is 00:16:38 a lot of your career, maybe most of your career in consumer. Imagine Adobe, there's a lot of B2B elements now as well. And you also angel invests and you'd help a lot of consumer companies. And tell me if you agree, but it feels like new consumer products basically never work. and if they do work, there's like a period where they work, like Be Real's kind of going through this now, Clubhouse, paparazzi, you went through this, and then they fail. Or, you know, fade away, maybe they come back and then fade away again. I guess, first of all, do you generally agree that, like,

Starting point is 00:17:09 consumer is just like so rarely successful new consumer products? You know, Uber was a consumer product, right? But it built a network effect that was never there before. It leveraged excess capacity that was always there but never tapped. something under the hood, right, that gave it lasting power. You know, I think of Pinterest, you know, and I was Ben's first seed angel or, you know, and product advisor. And, you know, with with, with that product, it was, you know, he had this like unique insight into the consumer psychology where it was not as much about getting likes

Starting point is 00:17:49 and portraying, you know, yourself through pictures of you and seeing, pictures of friends and all this sort of anxiety that is induced by that, but rather helping people collect and represent themselves with their interests. And so again, that was kind of like a new insight that I also think developed its own network effect that enabled it to be lasting. And there was a fascinating business component, which was it drove a crap load of traffic to every source of every pin, which then got those sites to then put pin buttons themselves because they wanted more traffic. So they were underlying things under the whole. again, that we're sort of tilting the market in his favor.

Starting point is 00:18:29 I think that a lot of these other more recent consumer products are just kind of clever momentary interfaces. And they are in effect at the expense of venture capitalists, R&D, for the platforms that already have the network effects and already have the distribution channels and the ad sales and everything else. So I think that's why we're seeing, you know, B-Rill's capability is now also in TikTok and you're seeing a lot of flashes in the pan, especially in these creative consumer apps, which I've been paying very close attention to. They're fun and novel, but if they really work,

Starting point is 00:19:05 those features are then brought into the native Apple camera, for instance. So let's double click on that. I know this is like a big question, but just what have you found is important for a new consumer product to work? You mentioned surprise would be great, network effects, maybe a new insight. What else do you find as important for a durable new consumer product to work? Yeah, and it's interesting because I think my answer 10 years ago would probably be different than my answer today. I think that there is a nimbleness and a, and maybe it started in China with these super apps that were able to kind of do everything. and that changed the idea away from the atomized experiences of a decade plus ago,

Starting point is 00:19:52 where you wanted a specialized product that did exactly what you wanted in a very, like, reduced way. I think Snapchat emerged under that world. I think Instagram became valuable to Facebook because of that phenomenon. Fast forward to today where all of us are far more technologically literate, and we are able to manage a lot more cognitive load. in our everyday technology lifestyles. And so there, you know, suddenly we don't mind five tabs.

Starting point is 00:20:21 We don't mind features hidden and tucked away in menus because we're sort of used to that now. And so maybe that's one of the reasons why these established platforms get away with, you know, basically copying any novel new capability as opposed to those becoming apps in and of themselves. So let me shift a little bit and talk about a tweet. that you tweeted about what one thing you've learned. You have this amazing thread of just like things you have learned over the many years you've been thinking about products and consumer products.

Starting point is 00:20:55 And one of them was about how you've learned that you should do half the things that you want to do. Like half the features you plan to do, do half the features. Offer half the options you want to offer. Focus on half the market versus market you're trying to go after. Can you just talk about maybe how you kind of came upon? that learning and then also just, how do you actually do that? It's like, sure, great, we're going to do half, but then which half?

Starting point is 00:21:21 And oh, but if someone wants this feature so badly, shoot, we can't do them all. So do you have any advice and just actually execute that sort of approach? I mean, one of the first comments I'll just make is whenever I'm asked by teams, what features need to be part of their MVP, how do they decide, you know, which features they need to ship first and whatever, I always tell them to optimize for the problems they want to have. You want the problem of customers getting through your funnel, feeling successful, using your product and getting value, and then saying to you, oh, but I need it on this platform, or I need this capability, or I want to be able to share this. I mean, you want those problems.

Starting point is 00:22:00 So don't do those features now. Only do the things that prevent people from getting to the point where they care enough to ask you for anything. Make sure they can get through the sign-up flow. Make sure they can connect their account. Make sure they can use Google login if they need to or whatever. the case may be. So I always remind the teams, like, optimize for the problems you want to have and make sure that you eliminate all the brick walls, the major catastrophe type things that can happen. But in terms of the half, the half, half, I learned this the hard way. When Behance was launching

Starting point is 00:22:32 back in 2008, I was always, you know, trying to hedge us with product features. I wasn't sure if people would be coming to join groups or if people would be coming for the tip exchange where creative share best practices with one another or if people were coming to build their portfolios or just share work in progress, maybe it's too much to build a whole project of your work. Maybe we can allow people just to share snapshots of their work.

Starting point is 00:23:00 So we actually launched with pretty much all of these features. And then, you know, it was the most complicated form of Behance was ironically at the beginning. And then what we realize is that some things were taking off and some things weren't. So I remember when we decided to kill the tip exchange. And suddenly, the publishing of projects in the portfolio went up. And we're like, oh, my gosh, like projects being published is the core metric and it's what

Starting point is 00:23:27 drives the traffic back to be hence. Let's do this again. I don't know. Let's kill groups. And so we killed groups. And lo and behold, more people published more projects. And it was like, wow. So actually, if you make the whole.

Starting point is 00:23:42 whole product about one thing. Everyone does that. That core crank operates at like 10x the velocity. And if that's the most important metric for the business, that's gold. And so we basically went on a killing spree. We just carted to killing things. And over the years, we have actually tried to have this sort of, and I push this on many products, I work with now, whenever you're adding things, consider what you can replace. Consider what you can also remove. When we updated the portfolio on Behance, I remember, we used to have this ability to change the colors of your portfolio in Behance. When people clicked on your profile and saw all your projects, you could control that and add your brand element to it. And so we know, we were like,

Starting point is 00:24:26 you know what? What would happen if we just took this away? Would people, again, focus more on projects? And so we took it away. For 24 hours, we had people reaching out to us being like, damn you, like, how could you take away these controls for color and a portfolio? After a 24 hours, we basically never heard about it again. All the portfolios look cleaner and more consistent, and people did the core metric more. And so I just took from that, try to kill things and everything you think you need to do, you probably only need to do half of it. I wonder if, in reality, most of the time, you only realize this afterwards versus ahead of time.

Starting point is 00:25:03 And that's just the way it is. and then it's just the seal of sunsitting things that aren't actually important. I do have to say the Lenny, like some of the best product leaders that I've worked with, I do feel like they have this great, you know, reductionist or minimalistic tendency by default. You know, they're just like very much, they anchor themselves on the one thing they want people to do and do well.

Starting point is 00:25:26 And they just are like pretty ruthless about like everything else being like, okay, but only if we have a problem with doing this core thing. okay, put on the back burner. You know, it's, and so it's something I've tried to, I've tried to get better at over the years. You know, it's really interesting is this is exactly like Matt Mashari, who is actually the number one most popular podcast episode, talks about when you let people go,

Starting point is 00:25:50 and he's helped a lot of CEOs let people go, that 100% of the time, everything just starts moving faster as soon as you have fewer people. And so it's the same exact model in people and products. I think that's right. And that's why I always feel like, you know, tough decisions, you know, almost always afterwards feel like a relief. And that's true for the product. That's true for people on a team as well. Let's shift to talking about AI, which I'm really excited about because I know you've been spending a lot of time talking with people about AI, building AI products.

Starting point is 00:26:24 You all launched Firefly, which a lot of people are really excited about. You also have this newsletter where you kind of just share your implications on how AI and technology is going to impact the work. world. So a lot of questions, I'm excited to ask you around this. And I'll just start really broad and maybe this too big of a question, but just how different do you expect the world to be in, say, five years as a result of AI, both for product builders and then just people in general. Listen, I'm an optimist. And I feel like our human potential has always been held back by the laws of physics, essentially. The mundane, repetitive labor you need to do to get anything done is what holds back our ingenuity. It's the friction, right? It's the work in workflows that wouldn't it be

Starting point is 00:27:12 great if we could just have flow and no work? And I think that that's what AI kind of does, is it gets us from workflow to flow. It gets us into this flow state where any idea in your mind's eye, you can start to develop it. I was having this discussion. with Howie, who runs Airtable, actually just earlier today, where we were talking about the leader at IBM who announced that he's not going to hire 8,000 people that he would have hired because AI is going to be able to do that work. And what we were talking about was,

Starting point is 00:27:48 and Howie made the point, as engineers have become much more productive over the years. That doesn't mean that companies have wanted fewer engineers. It actually just means that they demand more of their engineers and engineers have more possibility to do more. And so if human ingenuity goes up, maybe we actually want to hire more people, because if you have more ingenuity per human being, maybe you can actually do more as a company. Maybe companies that used to have three products will have five products or seven products or 30 products. And maybe that's actually the trend that we're forgetting is that humans bring this level of ingenuity to every problem. and every opportunity. Whereas computers, remember, like, chat GPT is basically just giving you what it

Starting point is 00:28:32 would look like if, right? It's not truly finding edges that will become the center. It's actually just mining the center and it's trying to regurgitate the center, which is also very helpful, by the way. So I'm optimistic. You know, I think that there will be far more people engaged in delivering experiences. You know, I'm very long the experience economy because I think that there will be some people liberated to focus more on the non-scalable things that really move the needle for experiences for customers. And I, you know, and I also am excited about humans having less grudge work to do. I'm also excited for that. It reminds me there's a, I have a TikTok account and I have this team that helps with the TikTok and they, we haven't shared this, but a few of the TikToks are my voice

Starting point is 00:29:18 generated with AI and they just write a script. And it's me reading the story and it sounds sort of like me, but like, and I showed it to a friend and I was like, do you see anything, you feel anything weird about this video? And he's like, you sound great. You sound like really like a great speaker of like, okay, say hi. Well, while you were reading, instead of reading a script, you can be, you know, plotting the course of the next episode. Yeah, exactly. So I totally see what you're talking about there. In the product team, which function do you think will be the most disrupted and or the most, I don't know, optimized through AI?

Starting point is 00:29:51 We're entering the era where we collapse the stack in every organization, where instead of having to go to someone for anything, you can kind of do more things yourself. It's very empowering to get the answer from data as opposed to having to go to a data scientist or a data analyst in the middle. So there's going to be far less game of operator across the organization and far more empowerment for people to dig their own rabbit holes, answer their own question. and get things done. You know, I happen to believe that that's the advantage typically of small teams is that they're flat, the stack has collapsed, people all can hear each other, you know, in an audible across the room. And that's how they run circles around big, stodgy, like old companies that are disparate,

Starting point is 00:30:39 you know, dispersed around the world. So maybe, you know, maybe this technology allows cross-functional work, right, and to happen. And I'm excited about that. That is really interesting. So essentially what you're saying is a PM will be able to do more design, more engineering, more data potentially. And it won't, maybe one day it'll be just as good as having a data scientist in your team. But there's essentially, everyone becomes kind of a unicorn cross-functional mini team.

Starting point is 00:31:08 Which sort of suggests this idea of idea meritocracy. You know, it's almost like what if people get promoted an opportunity, you know, based on how creative and how much ingenuity they have as opposed to. you know, how many reports or bug things they've gotten through or whatever else. So there's something about what you're saying that I do think, yes, it's disruptive to the degree that, will you need a data

Starting point is 00:31:30 analyst in the loop? But I also would suggest that, again, a data analyst doesn't have to answer redundant requests all day. She can spend time on thinking of other things without the boundaries of functions like we just discussed. This episode is brought to you by rose.com. The world runs on spreadsheets. You probably have a tab open with a spreadsheet

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Starting point is 00:32:30 Or if you're working with sales, you can natively plug Stripe, Salesforce, or HubSpot directly into rows. And when you're done, you can share your work as a beautiful spreadsheet that's easy to read and embed charts, tables, and calculators into Notion, confluence, or anywhere on the web. I've already moved some of my favorite spreadsheet templates to Rose. Go to rose.com slash Lenny to check them out. That's rose.com slash Lenny. A lot of listeners are product managers, and so just going a little bit further even within the product management function, how do you see the PM role changing in the next five years as a result of AI?

Starting point is 00:33:05 Well, let me start by saying that I think that the greatest performers I've ever worked with, whether they're designers or product leaders, basically preserve the time to explore lots of possibilities. They call those possibilities down to fewer set. They get feedback on those. They refine them even further. And then they present to the team. These are the two or three things I think we should do.

Starting point is 00:33:27 And that's the way a great designer works. For example, that is a function of time. If you have the skills and the capabilities, it's just how much time? How much time do you have to explore the full surface area of possibility and find the best possible option? in my world, in my mind, generative AI and AI for all, you know, and he talks about just like product leaders exploring possibilities,

Starting point is 00:33:51 this should expand the surface area. I was talking to a pretty well-known director in Hollywood world, and he was telling me that he uses ChatGPT. I was like, no. Are you serious? You do? He was like, yeah, I don't use it to write any scripts. But sometimes when I'm developing something with a writing partner, I will ask chat GPT, you know, what would you do? And I'll explain the full instance, you know, the full situation in extreme detail.

Starting point is 00:34:19 And it will spit out like five scenarios. And I actually don't use any of them. But it just like gives me more surface area. It tells me the things that I wouldn't want to do, which is also good data. And I just thought that response so interesting. And so when you ask about product leaders, I think that's what we're going to have is we're going to have the superpower of exploring far more surface area and far less time. It reminds me of something I always share about like why do you need a PM, why do you need a

Starting point is 00:34:47 designer, why do you need a researcher? It's not necessarily that they're just like very good at these specific skills. It's that they just have time to do this one thing that needs to be done. Like, you can have engineers do the PMR, but they don't have time. They want to code and they're not, they'd rather do that. And so this is really interesting that it connects to. It'll give everyone a little more time to get better at the thing they want to be doing. That's true. Is there anything you're doing with PMs at Adobe at this point that help them leverage these tools and just the ways of working that you're actually using today? One of my obsessions has been bringing design earlier into the process of product development.

Starting point is 00:35:24 So it's not necessarily AI yet, but it's the idea of designers, first of all, being in the room, even being in the room with some of the customer research and some of the debates around even the value proposition to the customer and some of the things. that traditionally happen only with the PMs. I just find that, again, like collapsing the stack, if you will, like having the designer hear these things and contribute gives them like a golden gut as they are then sitting down later and going through possible interfaces to solve the problem.

Starting point is 00:35:57 So I love bring design upstream. In fact, that's probably been the cheat code of my career as a product leader as just been disproportionately empowering design throughout the process. I think what we're going to start seeing is generative AI augmenting the designers work in real time. So right now, I mean, in Photoshop, we're experimenting with when, you know, instead of just reducing an image and cropping, you can also extend an image. And that's, of course, using generative AI for outpainting.

Starting point is 00:36:28 And so you can imagine as you're doing edits in that as well as in other forms of design, getting kind of thumbnails of what you might be trying to accomplish and then touching them, almost like predictive text to go to the next step, to the next step, to the next step, and take leaps in the creative process as opposed to incremental steps. I think that that's going to happen far more, and hopefully product designers,

Starting point is 00:36:51 product managers will be involved to some extent in some of these decision points, you know, as designers have more options to choose from. You threw out this term golden gut. What is that about? The golden gut is when you're designing an experience. and a flow, you are playing around, right, with all kinds of options. You're moving things around.

Starting point is 00:37:16 You're saying, actually, that's too complicated. Maybe I'll separate this one page into three steps as opposed to one page with three steps in a row. How do I break this down? How do I simplify? You know, you sometimes have instincts like, wait, what if I just remove this all together? You know, what if you didn't even have this whole series of steps? What if I just had a presumptuous default instead?

Starting point is 00:37:35 and customers could change it if they think they need to. And some of those sorts of, I wonder if, I wonder if, to me is the difference between a very junior product thinker and a very experienced product thinker. I think experienced product thinkers with that golden gut of, oh, my gosh, wait, reduction of cognitive load. Maybe even if 10% of people get confused to get 90% of people far faster through this process is a big win and a great opportunity cost tradeoff. I think those sorts of little micro decisions that we make in the process of building products,

Starting point is 00:38:11 that's the golden gut. I love it. I've not heard that term before. Four PMs listening and are like, okay, AI is happening. I don't know what to do. What would be your advice for them to kind of stay ahead and be aware where things are going and not be left behind? Quite simply, in one word, play.

Starting point is 00:38:31 We all have to be playing with this technology. We have to find ways. the risk of becoming more experience in your career is you get stuck in your ways. And you're like, oh, no, I don't need to have that automatic draft in my email and get chat GPT to suggest what I want to respond with. I'm fine without that. Make sure you try it. Make sure you play with it. You know, write poems for your friends.

Starting point is 00:38:57 You know, try a lot of these various generative AI tools out there just to see what's possible and pursue every curiosity. The reason I started the implications newsletter is because I was seeing this high velocity of new stuff every day. And I'm like, I have to force myself to make sure I understand all of this and think about how these implications will change my business as well as the world that I operate in. And there was no better way to do that than to have to write about it, you know, and promise my readers I'll get a monthly thing out there. So I just think we all have to do some version of that.

Starting point is 00:39:32 Let's plug implications while we're at it. How do people go subscribe or do they find it? Yeah, no, it's implications.com, so it's easy to find. But this is a, it's a monthly exercise where throughout the month, I try to capture a few things I think are important, and I really try to go deep down the rabbit hole of what the implications are for various parts of our work and life. And it's been a fun exercise.

Starting point is 00:39:58 And also I get some good polarizing feedback in the process. Oh, you do. interesting. You should share that. That'd be interesting as like, here's what I'm getting in response to the stuff I'm writing. This also touches on a thread that comes up a lot in this podcast is the power of just writing to help you think through stuff. Like, a lot of people think my newsletter is, I'm just sharing all these things I know. I'm just like, I know it in my head. I'm just going to share it in the thing. But it's more, the writing helps me figure it out and gives me an excuse. And like you said, it's a forcing function to spend the time crystallizing it.

Starting point is 00:40:27 And so that's another reminder for that. And capturing those things, I think that the thing I've kind of learned over the years with writing and also with product development is, you know, as soon as you capture these little glimpses and things or sketches, and they become relevant years later. So don't always capture and write because of a foreseeable need for that content. Consider it almost like a, you know, a backburner that you're constantly tending to. And imagine that three years from now, the stars will align and this will become invaluable content or some crucial idea, you know, for a problem you're facing at the moment. There's a lot of people actually in your shoes that want to write more and put content out,

Starting point is 00:41:06 but that also a full-time job with a lot of things on your plate. Any advice for actually getting it done the way you've been getting it done? You know, listen, there's no hack to it other than ruthlessness of time and prioritization, you know, saying no to most things. You know, this morning I went for a run and I was like, I have 40 minutes exactly until I have to get in the shower and I have to be somewhere in 30 minutes from that moment, I'm going to take those 40 minutes or at least 35 of them and I'm going to write. I don't care if I write five words or five pages.

Starting point is 00:41:40 And it's just a great, you know, without that discipline, though, it's, as you said, it's super hard to get it in the, you know, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, wrote a book called The Messy Middle. And without even talking about what it is, the title is pretty, I think people feel like I get it. And imagine many people listening are founders or PMs that are feeling like they're in this messy middle. What is one piece of advice for people in this period that you think might help them through the messy middle? The bottom line is that these years in the middle of whether it's a venture, your new startup, bold turnaround, or than a big company,

Starting point is 00:42:20 they are messy because they are full of lows. You know, it's very volatile. When you're in those lows, you need to find a way to endure them. You need to endure the anonymity and uncertainty and anxiety. I'm sure a lot of listeners are, whether they're in big companies or starting their own company, it's hard to be doing something that no one knows or cares about. I always like to remind myself that the life expectancy of humans 100 plus years ago was 25 years old. So the idea of spending three to five years of your life on something, especially if it might

Starting point is 00:42:51 fail, was a bad decision. And I think biologically, we feel the need for constant rewards and affirmation to stick with something long enough. And in fact, like, if any of, you know, most of your listeners are, we're all building things that take many, many years to defy the odds. And we have to overcome our natural human tendencies in this instance by sticking together long enough to figure it out. So how do you do that, right? I mean, Obviously, part of it is culture, wanting to serve the customers you serve and working with the team you're working with, and that being enough to kind of stick it long enough. I think part of it is short-circuiting the reward system, you know, finding micro goals and milestones that are mutually agreed upon,

Starting point is 00:43:34 we're going to celebrate these, even though in the greater scheme of things, they don't matter much. I think that's a key part of keeping the team and keeping the dream alive. I always like to use the analogy of we're driving our teams across country as product leaders with the windows blacked out in the backseat and everyone's sitting in the backseat. And so if they don't know what we're doing that we're making progress, this traffic is clearing, we just cross state lines. If they don't receive the narrative, they will go stir crazy. And so there's a lot of research around progress, be getting progress and how progress is a source of motivation.

Starting point is 00:44:12 And so as product leaders, we have to merchandise progress. We have to be the steward of this narrative. And you touch on this a bit as you were just talking, but there's also this moment where it makes sense to quit. Like you shouldn't stay with things endlessly. And I guess any advice on just when something is like, okay, you should probably move on from this. It makes me think a little bit about there's all these companies

Starting point is 00:44:35 that just keep going that maybe shouldn't keep going because they have enough money or they're just like, no, founders never quit. Any advice or thoughts that you share there? Yeah, you know, I've had this conversation quite a few times over the years with founders and friends who were running a company going sideways or worse and have had this question. Should I continue or not? I always have the same answer. I basically say, and I really ask, how much conviction do you have in the solution you're building? I know in the beginning, before you knew all you know now, you had tons of conviction.

Starting point is 00:45:16 That's what caused you to leave your job. You know, that's what caused you to take all this risk and hire people and raise money and all this stuff. Now knowing all you know, do you have more or less conviction in the problem and the solution you're building? And I'll tell you, like, I get different answers. Some people are like, oh, Scott, I mean, I have more conviction. Like all that I've learned, all the validation I've received from customers, we just

Starting point is 00:45:41 haven't figured it out yet. It's driving me crazy. We've tried three times and it's still like each product fails, but I have more conviction than ever before. And for those people, I'm like, you know what? You're just in the messy middle. Stick with it. You know, this is, this is par for the course. But, you know, oftentimes I'll hear, you know, honestly, if I knew now, would I, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have done this. Like, holy shit. I'm like, then quit. Like, your life is short. You have a great team. Pivot. Do something completely. different. If you've lost conviction, you should not be doing what you're doing in the world of entrepreneurship. Sometimes there are moments of that, I imagine. And so there's probably some

Starting point is 00:46:22 spectrum of just like how little conviction and how long you felt that, right? I think so. But at the same time, listen, we all have ups and downs. We all have good days and bad days. However, I do think that great founders are just, they absolutely know in their core, you know, that something needs to exist. And they will just be ruthless and relentless until it does. But if you lose that, I actually don't know if you have the fuel to continue. So listen, you're right. Don't make a bold decision on a bad day. But if the conviction generally dissipates, be open-minded about other options. You do a lot of angel investing. Talk to a lot of founders. What is it that you look for? What do you think is important for a startup to show you for it to feel like a good bet that it'll likely work out?

Starting point is 00:47:15 What are some of the important attributes that you look for? I'll talk for a few things on team and then a few things on product. Perfect. You know, on team, I really value founders who listen, you know, who really learn, who long to shake shit up a bit, you know, and also value the mission that they're on more than the money that it yields. because I do think that, especially during a period of time where you don't have revenue, you're going to need to be motivated by something grander and bolder than revenue. I also have an allergic reaction to founders that are real promoters, who are constantly trying to sugarcoat the truth, who like to gloss over the hard parts.

Starting point is 00:47:59 I've always admired leaders that are optimistic about the future, but very pragmatic and somewhat pessimistic about the present. So the founders that I have a great sort of chemistry with are people who are like, this is how big the market is. This is how amazing this is. I know this needs to exist. But, you know, we've got a lot to figure out. There are things that are not working. We don't have these datasets.

Starting point is 00:48:20 These are the major obstacles we're struggling with. You know, these are the things that keep me up at night. Those are real people. And you know that in that volatile, messy middle, you know, messy middle that they're going to inevitably go through, that their team, their investors are going to have the real truth and they're going to be able to engage. and find solutions. So I really love finding those types of founders, and I'm very wary of kind of the name-dropping,

Starting point is 00:48:43 overly promoting folks who are unlikely to be able to partner in that way. On the product side, I am looking for an object model way of thinking about a product that I am confident will scale as they solve their problem. And when I say object model, what I mean is, is it clear whenever you're seeing the product, like how it works, where you came from, where you're going? Those are the three questions I always ask when I'm doing product reviews.

Starting point is 00:49:13 It's like, how did I get here? What do I do now? And what do I do next? And I feel like every screen and every product experience, you should be able to answer those three questions. Sometimes I'll be talking to a team that says they're design driven. It says that they're building an incredible product. And they'll show me a demo.

Starting point is 00:49:31 And I'm like, this is all over the place. like there's no clean, clear breadcrumbs and object model for how this thing works. How are they ever going to get people through their funnel? Clearly they don't value this as a core principle. And that's also always a red flag. And then finally, I just obviously have to believe in the problem they're solving. So those are some of the things I think about. And you focus primarily on consumer or do you invest all over the place?

Starting point is 00:49:55 And I'm asking in case people want to reach out or maybe, hey, Scott, you want to... Yeah, I know. I'm pretty agnostic. I look for product, design-oriented team. you know, making things I need to exist. Beyond that, I try not to be too prescriptive. Okay, excellent. Any last words of wisdom that you think it impact the way people build product in the world, the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of listeners listening?

Starting point is 00:50:16 Is there anything else you want to share before we get to a very exciting lightening around? Two quick things, you know, one for the moment that we're in and then one for why we do what we do. For the moment that we're in, you know, we're in a resource-constrained environment. Let's face it. We're all going to have less money, fewer headcount, all that kind of stuff. And I've always found that resourcefulness brings you further than resources, despite the fact that over the last seven to ten years, we've basically thrown resources at every problem.

Starting point is 00:50:45 Oh my gosh, this is not scaling. Throw more money at servers. Oh, my goodness. We need more people on the social media team. Throw more money at headcounts. We've had a resources way of solving our problems as opposed to a, well, let's refactor how we run that database. or let's refactor how that team answers customer service request. Let's bring a new technology to make it more efficient.

Starting point is 00:51:08 Let's leverage and play with AI to see if that can help us. We are in this era now where we're being forced to be resourceful and to refactor as opposed to hire and throw resources of problems. I think that's a great opportunity. I feel like this is where the best teams are going to build that muscle that are going to go the distance. That's why all these VCs say it's so cliche that the best companies are always.

Starting point is 00:51:31 built in eras like these. So my one, you know, my point number one is capitalize on the crisis, everyone, you know, it's, uh, if, if resources are carbs, resourcefulness is like muscle, it stays with you. It makes you stronger. And it helps you, you know, have a better, better, better intuition, you know, and better performance over time. And then I guess taking a step back, I would just encourage folks to recognize that, you know, anything, anything amazing. in the venture world is ultimately an exception. And with all the best practices, Lenny, that you and I just discussed and all the stuff that we read in books and whatever else, I always try to remind myself that, you know,

Starting point is 00:52:14 at the end of the day, sometimes exceptions are the rule when it comes to doing something truly transformative and that nothing extraordinary is ever achieved through ordinary means. And so while we should always take these best practices and, sure, listen to some of the lessons I learn the hard way and whatever else. But at the same time, if everyone says you're crazy, you're either crazy or you're really on to something. So take that with a grain of salt. Love that. Speaking of extraordinary, I thought it'd be cool to just give you a chance to talk about what you're doing at Adobe. What are some of the products that are working on?

Starting point is 00:52:49 What should folks know about potentially what's happening in Adobe they may not be aware of? Yeah, no, thanks for asking. for us, I would say there's really three trends that are driving or three waves of transformation. I would say that are driving the strategy right now for us. One is just that people are becoming more creatively confident. It's kind of wild that we're most confident as five-year-olds creatively when we're drawing and our parents are like, oh my God, that's beautiful. That's amazing.

Starting point is 00:53:16 Let's put it on the fridge. And then creative confidence kind of goes down from there for most adults. And that's really sad. And with generative AI and tools, we have some of the things. called Adobe Express and Market, and our gender VA offering is called Firefly. These types of tools make people feel more creatively confident right away. It's pretty amazing to see people that would never pick up a pen and draw are suddenly feeling confident. So I would say that's like wave number one. You know, wave number two that we talked about a little earlier were, you know, is the fact that

Starting point is 00:53:46 creative professionals can now explore 10x the surface area of possibility. These tools are making them so much more efficient. And some people are like, oh, my gosh, creative pros are going to be replaced. No, no, no, no, no. They're not. They're just going to find 10x better solutions. They're going to have that capability to explore more possibilities. That's what makes design great, is finding, you know, exploring more surface area. And then I would say the third wave that's fascinating to me is personalization. You know, I think we talked about this a little bit. Like our apps will meet us where we are. I think that every marketing experience will be increasingly personalized for each of us, you know, every commerce experience, they'll know who we are, they'll just show us our

Starting point is 00:54:26 shoe size and no one else is. You know, these sorts of transformations will really change the entire world of commerce and content and media and everything else. And Adobe has a big digital marketing business that is focused on enabling some of that. So those are, that's really the, those are the factors of strategy that I would say are driving some of the new products we have under development. And, you know, now it's all about less talk, more ship. I love that. You need a banner of that. It's been amazing to watch Adobe's rise over the last decade. It just kind of felt like it was going nowhere,

Starting point is 00:54:57 and all of a sudden, it's a juggernaut. And so great work, Scott and everyone else involved. But with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got six questions for you. We'll try to go through it pretty fast. Is that good? Okay. Sounds excited.

Starting point is 00:55:11 Sounds good. Let's do it. What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people? First is Billed by Tony Fidel. you know, Tony is just an amazing, charismatic, deeply pragmatic product builder. You know, he's been brave enough to do both Adams and Bits, as he says. And his book is just chock full, chock full of wisdom. You know, I do appreciate some of these kind of laws of nature, laws of power type books.

Starting point is 00:55:45 I love psychology books. I'm trying to think of some offhand that have really struck me. but understanding the natural human tendencies of people, I think the laws of power like talks about tons of wars over centuries and, you know, what sorts of natural human tendencies or inequalities drove, you know, massive rebellions and revolutions. These sorts of insights, believe it or not, parlay into decisions we make in products and making people feel successful and productive.

Starting point is 00:56:18 So I don't know. I love those books just because I think that they remind us of sort of the limitations and opportunities or possibilities of humanity. What is a favorite recent movie or TV show? What I love is these documentaries about like the cosmos and about the sort of the edge of our understanding of black holes and, you know, and what happens out there in space. So I don't remember. I know one is called Cosmos on Netflix. There are a few of them. But in my downtime, I get lost in some series like that.

Starting point is 00:56:48 You have kids, one or plus, one or more kids? Yes. What are you doing to help them plan for this future? I think about this all the time. You know, what are our children going to do in a world where, you know, if you believe Vinod Kosla's prediction that 80% of the work of 80% of jobs will be replaced by AI, what will people do? As we talked about, their ingenuity will be unleashed.

Starting point is 00:57:12 That's great. But ultimately, I always revert back to this one belief that if people are passionate, they become successful in something. So I've always just been focused in trying to make sure that they find something they're super passionate about. And it doesn't even matter if the thing they find now is the thing they do later.

Starting point is 00:57:28 Because I do believe that passion in itself and taking initiative on your passion is a muscle memory that once you develop it, you know, I have a daughter who loves horseback riding. I don't know if she's going to do horseback riding forever or whatever. But I think that the passion that she has for it, and this desire to be better

Starting point is 00:57:47 and to constantly learn more and do more, that in itself is like a replicable muscle memory. So I don't know what the future holds, but I believe that passionate people will always have a path. Love that. What's a favorite interview question you like to ask when you're interviewing people? There's a real one and there's a snarky one, right?

Starting point is 00:58:07 So I do love trying to understand if people are introspective, you know, And so I like asking about something people have learned about themselves that reveal the limitation in how they work. You know, it's a way to test like introspection. And when this person hits their limits or struggles, can they be open and introspective? Are they going to blame and point fingers? So I do ask that.

Starting point is 00:58:37 I also like the question, like, do you consider yourself lucky? I think it's a fascinating question because it also, you know, some people who are super, insecure about, you know, where they are and how they got there might decline admitting luck. You know, those who are comfortable should admit that they were lucky. I mean, I think the truth is, we're all very lucky and certainly privileged. And, you know, I just think that that's always an interesting conversation. What's a favorite recent product you've discovered app or physical product, anything that comes to mind? I've been playing with a product called Q, and it's Q-U-E-U-E-E, I think.

Starting point is 00:59:15 And it's basically a way to keep a queue of all of this content you want to watch across every streaming platform. And it's because there's so much content across so many streaming platforms and to make your own queue and then to see your friend's cues and to see what content is in most of the people you know's cues. Like it's actually an incredible graph of kind of stuff that people want to watch or have liked that I think we're going to need in this world where there's just a billion sources of content. I'm definitely going to check that out. I've been looking for an app like that of like I'm sitting in the evening. What the hell should I watch? I've seen everything that exists on the internet. So that's awesome.

Starting point is 00:59:53 What's a favorite AI tool that you've recently discovered or find useful that isn't something Adobe has made? Okay. Well, I'll, I will mention if it's okay, like a product that I did invest in. It's a product called Tome. And they can take a narrative that you want to put into a presentation. and with AI basically create a, you know, just like a draft of this presentation with imagery and compelling points. And it's pretty, it's almost as if you, like, handed this off to an intern and said,

Starting point is 01:00:26 come back to me with something I can work with. And suddenly it's like instantly there. So that's been like a fun one, a fun one to play with. I will check that out. We'll link to that. Also reminds me, Kevin Kelly on Tim Ferriss was talking about how AI and Chad GBT is basically an intern. That's like the level of their skill right now.

Starting point is 01:00:43 they're just this intern that's helping out with stuff. I think that's right. And that's why we have to see it as a resource, but not a constraint. Because, you know, again, it's, you know, it's answering that question, like, what would it look like if, as opposed to doing, you know, true, distinct thinking, per se? Scott, this is the first time we've ever chatted, but I feel like I know you, you are wonderful. Thank you so much for being here. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more?

Starting point is 01:01:10 And how can listeners be useful to you? Yeah, no, awesome. Listen, thanks, Lenny. And your, your podcasts and your emails are probably among my more forwarded, you know, pieces of nuggets and resources that I send to product teams I work with. So thank you for elevating the field for all of us, I should say. And it's an honor to be on this podcast. I'm easy to find just scottbelski.com or at Scott Belski on your favorite social network of choice. and, you know, implications.com is where I'm writing these days. And then, you know, I welcome, I welcome folks to share what they're working on. You know, I just love taking as much data points as possible. I love connecting dots for people and making introductions. I feel like, you know, that can be a contribution to this whole world of better and better products. And I welcome you to reach out.

Starting point is 01:02:04 Awesome. Scott, again, thank you for being here. Thanks, Lenny. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny'spodcast.com.

Starting point is 01:02:29 See you in the next episode.

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - Lessons on building product sense, navigating AI, optimizing the first mile, and making it through the messy middle | Scott Belsky (Adobe, Behance)

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