Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - Leveraging growth advisors, hiring well, mastering SEO, and honing your craft | Luc Levesque (Shopify, Meta, TripAdvisor)

Episode Date: June 15, 2023

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Attio—A powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Luc Levesque is Chief Growth Officer at Shopify and has advised companies like Canva, Twitter, Pinterest, and Patreon on growth and product strategy. Previously he served as an executive at TripAdvisor, where he built and led the growth team that helped it become the world’s largest travel site. Luc was then recruited by Mark Zuckerberg to Facebook, where he was an executive and held senior product and engineering leadership roles. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Why you need to become world-class at hiring• Tips for finding a great growth advisor and assessing their impact• Why truly great companies focus on impact• Common mistakes to avoid when building a growth team• The importance of passion and continuous self-improvement• Signs your company should explore SEO as a growth channel, and strategies to do so• Why Mark Zuckerberg personally recruited Luc and what it taught him about the recruiting process—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/leveraging-growth-advisors-hiring—Where to find Luc Levesque:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/luclevesque• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luclevesque/• Website: https://luclevesque.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Luc’s background(03:31) Luc’s first MT review at Facebook(07:09) Impact vs. industriousness(09:20) Facebook’s relentless, personalized approach to recruiting talent(13:12) Luc’s hiring playbook(16:56) When to focus on growth and the importance of product-market fit(18:04) What to look for in a growth advisor(23:15) The large impact Luc made from a small conversation(26:52) Advice on compensating advisors(31:35) How to find a good growth advisor using VCs and your network(33:33) The importance of having an in-house person and growth advisors as support(38:15) Tips for becoming a growth advisor(41:59) The power of SEO (45:29) The two buckets of SEO(49:21) Channels of growth(51:49) The potential impact of ChatGPT on Google and SEO(56:04) Advice on hiring an SEO person(58:19) How long it takes for SEO to make an impact(1:00:07) Self-reflection, cold plunge, and other tools Luc uses to excel in his personal and work life(1:06:46) Luc’s famous dinner guild(1:10:33) Lightning round—Referenced:• Luc’s blueprint: https://coda.io/@luc-levesque/blueprint-for-leaders-managers-communicate-your-quirks/my-blueprint-9• Jeff Bezos’s morning routine: https://finty.com/us/daily-routines/jeff-bezos• Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain: https://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolutionary-Science-Exercise-Brain/dp/0316113514• Smart Brevity: The Power of Saying More with Less: https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Brevity-Power-Saying-More/dp/1523516976• Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion: https://www.amazon.com/Influence-New-Expanded-Psychology-Persuasion/dp/0062937650/• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599• Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t: And Other Tough-Love Truths to Make You a Better Writer: https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492• The War of Art: Break Through the Blocks and Win Your Inner Creative Battles: https://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Through-Creative-Battles/dp/1936891026• The Legend of Bagger Vance: A Novel of Golf and the Game of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Legend-Bagger-Vance-Novel-Golf/dp/038072751X• Huberman Lab podcast: https://hubermanlab.com/welcome-to-the-huberman-lab-podcast/• The All-In Podcast: https://www.allinpodcast.co/• Renu cold plunge: https://www.renutherapy.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

We talk about the 10x engineer, and we don't really talk about the 10x growth advisor or 10x growth person, but the same dynamic applies. You could argue it applies even more because the right growth advisor can have literally company changing impact. The advantage of a growth advisor is it takes a long time to understand a channel. And certainly, you know, people have to know their stuff. They have to be very good at their craft, their growth craft. But also they have to be exposed to a large set of experiments or an environment where they've just

seen what works and what does it. Once a growth advisor has that, it takes years to learn it, but it literally can take seconds, literally, to communicate that. It's one of those weird disciplines where the right person at the right time can literally say a sentence that changes the trajectory of your company. You can't say that for a lot of different disciplines, but this is one of them. Welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products. Today, my guest is Luke Levec. Luke is currently the chief growth officer, Shopify. Before this, he was recruited personally by Mark Zuckerberg to help grow Facebook,

Messenger, Instagram, and WhatsApp. He's also a VP of Growth and a GM at TripAdvisor. He's also been a growth advisor to companies like Twitter, Pinterest, Patreon, Thumbtack, and Canva. And in our conversation, Luke shares advice on how and when to think about getting a growth advisor, including how to structure their relationship and what to look for in an advisor. We also spent a ton of time on SEO, how to think about this as a growth channel, who it's well suited for, and how everything is about to change in SEO with Bard and Chatchipete. Plus, Luke shares a ton of really interesting advice around the value of self-reflection, building routines, cold plunges. Also, a couple of amazing stories about working with

Zuck and what he learned from him. This is such an insight-rich episode, and I know you will love it. With that, I bring you Luke Levick after a short word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Mix Panel. Get deep insights into what your users are doing, at every stage of the funnel at a fair price that scales as you grow. MixPanel gives you quick answers about your users from awareness to acquisition through retention. And by capturing website activity, add data, and multi-touch attribution right in MixPanel, you can improve every aspect of the full user funnel. Powered by first-party behavioral data instead of third-party cookies,

MixPanel is built to be more powerful and easier to use than Google Analytics. Explore plans for teams of every size and see what MixPanel can do for you, at Mixpanel.com slash friends slash Lenny. And while you're at it, they're also hiring. So check it out at mixpanel.com slash friends slash Lenny. This episode is brought to you by Atio, a new type of CRM that's powerful, flexible,

and built around your data. Traditional CRMs are built for a different era with totally different speed, scale, and data demands. Atio is different. It allows you to quickly build a CERMs, CRM that matches your unique workflows and data structures. Within minutes of connecting your email and calendar, you'll have a CRM that's already set up, complete with customer profiles, and automatic data enrichment.

You'll also have real-time dynamic reporting at your fingertips. No more slow deployments, outdated user experiences, or tedious manual data input. With ATEO, you can build and adapt your CRM on the fly no matter your business model or company stage. Atio is the CRM for fast-growing startups. Get started today and get 15% off your first year at atio.com slash Lenny. That's ATTIO.com slash Lenny. Luke, welcome to the podcast. Thank you.

Good to see it. It's good to see you too. I want to start with a story that you shared once when we were hanging out in the past and something that I'll never forget. And it's about the time that you just joined Facebook. And apparently you had some kind of big presentation you had to give to the entire company. or the executive staff, and then I just love the way it kind of unfolded and kind of gives you a glimpse into what it's like to work with Zuck and at Facebook. Can you share that story if that rings a bell?

I remember the story. Well, basically, I had just started at Facebook about I'll use those two interchangeably. I remember it as Facebook and always will. Now, it was three months in and was working on a new area for me. So came in, started putting together our thoughts on a strategy and was asked to do a presentation in front of the company. with Mark on the strategy. So I whipped up a draft strategy, put together some plots, some plans, presented in front of the company, went well. And then every six months, there's something called the M-Team Review at Facebook.

And basically, product area leads will go in and present their strategy, how it's going. Again, I just joined three months before. So I walk in, no idea what to expect. I'm sitting at a table. You can kind of envision it's a big room, really big room with a bunch of tables set up in a big square with a little microphone. So I sit in there, there's Mark and all the executives sitting on the other side. And I sit down and it's quiet for what felt like five minutes. I'm sure it was not.

But it was quiet for a while, just sitting there waiting for what's going to happen now. And at some point, Mark kind of looks over. It says, hey, we saw your presentation, saw your strategy. Now when are we going to start seeing results? And that was my introduction to Facebook. it was kind of my introduction to working with Mark and was a pretty kind of intense thing to go through. Again, I just joined.

The strategy was very much a draft at that point. But I think what it highlights is something that Facebook does really, really well, which you get very quickly when you join Facebook. And it's why there's such an execution machine and can build a lot of great product. It's because they focus exclusively on that magic word, which is impact. And that was kind of my first introduction of working with Mark. and just that laser focus on, all right, got it. Now, when are we going to start seeing impact and kind of moving from there?

So it's something that is very much in the culture there and something that is so important. It's something, of course, that we focus on a lot at Shopify, but it's that difference between, I don't care how hard you've worked, I don't care what you're working on with the activities are, what are the outcomes, what is the impact you're having. And I actually really love that word impact and focusing on it because it's vague enough that it covers off any work that is impact. towards the mission and it's precise enough to know, you know, what does that mean when you say, are you having impact or what is the impact we're having? So it's a great way to approach things. That was my first experience there within a few months. And yeah, and we jumped in and started

focusing on having a lot of impact from there. I love that story. There's a couple things there. One is if I were in your shoes, I'd poop my pants sitting there for five minutes waiting for what are you guys? It does not happen. I'd have to report. Okay. How did it go? How did you deal with? with it, or I guess how did you respond? Well, we had, funny enough, already started having impact. So I was able to at least respond with, hey, we've kind of already started in a few ways and walk through where we were having impact and just focus on the strategy, what our plans

forward were and where we wanted to go from there. So I think that's how I responded. Okay, great. Great work. So something I've started doing actually on this podcast is I've started to keep a little posted of, here it is, of like themes that continue to recur across, companies that are most successful. And impact comes, it's like number one on my posted here,

is just like impact comes up so often as something that the best companies continue to come back to and focus on and put a lot of emphasis on. I guess, I don't know what the question is exactly, but is that just what you find in the work that you do with all the companies you work with, just how important it is to come back to impact as maybe the primary thing. Yeah, I mean, I think it's easy for a lot of leaders and companies to get caught up in how hard are people working, what did they do, and recognizing and rewarding activity.

I mean, everybody wants to have impact, and the companies that truly focus on that are the ones that break through and really make a lot of progress towards the mission. So that seems obvious, I think, when I say it out loud, but being in that culture and having it really ingrained in everything you do and whether it's performance reviews or strategies

or these reviews with the executive team, team in all gravitates around impact. And I think it's that laser focus on it that matters so much. But I mean, I've certainly seen it go in other ways where it's more about, you know, working long hours. And certainly there's a correlation, to be clear, between working hard and impact. But I find it's just such a precise way to think about how people are performing or what you're doing in terms of is your strategy working, is your, the direction you're moving in having the intended outcomes that you want. And yeah, I do think it's all about that. And being a growth leader where everything is so measurable, impact is something that can be very clearly

measured and you know whether you have it or not. So the most important thing that we work on constantly is reviewing what's our strategy? What are we working on? Is that driving towards the top-level North Star outcome we want? Is that having the impact? And then basically doing everything around that singular North Star. So it's very, very important. And I think it's more profound than it might seem just from the outside. But if you've worked in different companies, you've probably experienced different versions of this too. Yeah, I want to spend more time on this,

but before we move on, you also have another Zuck story, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Zuck recruited you personally to join Facebook slash meta. Is that true? And then, if true, what was that? What was that like to be recruited by Zuck so personally? It was an interesting experience,

very intense, but also one of the reasons for it was I was living in Canada. And my family was there and I had some strong personal reasons why I couldn't leave Canada. But yeah, we had a lot of discussions with Mark. I won't get into the micro details of it. That's more Mark's story to tell than mine. But a few takeaways from going through that experience as a leader, hiring is the most important thing. As we all know, it's a craft and a skill that I'm always working on refining.

I have my own playbook that I'm constantly tweaking, testing out different approaches, trying to find the best talent and assessing them and trying to close them and bringing them on board. So I learned a lot through that experience with Mark. And a couple of things that stood out were the first one would be that, you know, Mark really involved the entire executive team. It wasn't just me talking to recruiting or talent or HR or just Mark. It was the entire executive team. And that's something that I think a lot of leaders don't take advantage of.

I've seen leaders I've certainly done at the times where you go it alone or you're working with recruiting. But the reality is all the leaders, all the execs in the company know how important it is to bring in talent. And they're always more than happy to help. So that's something that I think more leaders should do is really recruit all of their peers and their leaders in the company to help close. And that's certainly something that happened when I was in discussions with Mark and Facebook about joining. The second one, which I had, I suppose never experienced before was that they made it very personal. I had these reasons why I couldn't leave.

So initially I was excited by the opportunity, but I couldn't see myself moving at California for personal reasons. and through discussions, Mark basically involved my wife, involved my spouse in this, Andrea. And we flew down, had dinner with him and Priscilla, his wife, and Andrea had ended up meeting with many of the executives of Facebook and really talking through what was holding us back, why we couldn't come, potential options and ideas for how we could come down. But involving somebody's spouse and family, I think, is a really good idea because it's a very personal decision to change company.

It involves more than just that person you're talking to. It involves their whole family. So that was something that I think is an important thing to have in your kind of playbook for hiring is really think about the whole person's family and involve them if you can. In fact, Toby added this as well at Shopify. He flew down here with Fiona for and we had breakfast with Andrea and them and reviewed a few offers when I joined Shopify. And then the third thing is just to be absolutely relentless and don't get.

give up and don't let momentum drop. It took seven months for me to go from, there's, you know, this is amazing, exciting, but there's no way I can make this work to, okay, let's move to Palo Alto. And, you know, Mark, the exact, a variety of leaders there were in discussions for months and months and months, and never letting the momentum die.

And that's something that I think is really important. No, doesn't necessarily mean no. And in this case, it definitely wasn't the case. And I had the same experience with Toby at Shopify where we've been talking about working together for over 10 years now. And then finally, the timing was right. And I was able to join the company. So just be relentless. Involved the family.

Involved the spouse if you can. And recruit some help from other executives in the company. Those are some of the things that stood out and through my experience. But yeah, it was a pretty wild time in my life. Relentless is actually another word. It wasn't necessarily I'm supposed to yet, but I feel like it's another trend across the most. impactful and successful founders is just this like, I will not give up and we'll keep at it. And so that's a really interesting example of that inaction. I was going to talk about this later,

but maybe it's a good time to talk about it now, which is around hiring. So you talk about you have this playbook for how to hire. And you mentioned to me that you kind of find that as you scale as a leader hiring ends up being like the most important skill maybe, maybe one of the most important skills. I'd love to hear your take on just what you found about hiring as you've grown as a product leader. Well, I think you reach a point in your career where you really, realize that hiring is the skill you now need to become world-class at because you're no longer doing the work yourself. You're still, of course, involved and doing some of the work and getting your hands dirty, but the bulk of your team's success now will be the quality of the hires you

make. And you truly need to be world-class at that. So, yeah, I built this playbook out. I was in Canada, in Ottawa when I sold a company at TripAdvisor and really started growing my team and becoming more of a leaning into leadership at the time through that experience. And one of the benefits of being in Ottawa and kind of off the grid, if you will, is it's a curse and a benefit is that you don't have a ton of people you can learn from. So it does mean you need to go to first principles and think things through from the ground up. It takes a little longer, but you come up with your own playbooks on how to do things. And I think you've seen my blueprint, which is a good example of that, where I have this blueprint I put together.

And when new people join the team, I show them my blueprint, which is basically a list of my corks so we can really quickly align. That's something that just being in Ottawa and trying to figure out how to be a leader and avoid mistakes, I was like, wouldn't it be nice if you had a blueprint? When somebody joined, you can just tell them all of your corpse and you can just quickly calibrate on how it is to work together versus through awkward long discussions over the course of a year. My Hary Playbooks are similar things.

So I think of it in three different chapters, if you will. There's finding talent, assessing talent, and closing talent. In terms of finding talent, I do believe that the best predictor of future performance is past performance. So I'm looking for what I call signs of excellence. So I want to know, you know, the top people generally have done multiple amazing things in their life, repeated success, not just once. Maybe it was work-related, maybe not work-related.

But generally speaking, if you think back to the stars you've worked with, they've done some amazing things. And that's why I always start when I interview or when I chat with people, I start. talking about just trying to understand what has been your path. What have you done professionally and not professionally? Generally, star is going to stand out. It's very rare that there's not something obvious that comes through. So for myself personally, I'm looking for kind of three different signs of excellence to tell me that it doesn't have to be three. The mental model I have is there's, as you're talking to them, you're getting pluses and negatives. There's red

flags you're hearing and there's really great things. And then at the end, you're going to make an opinion of how good this person is. Another great sign. of excellence. And this was just through reflecting on my team and stars on the team and thinking, what makes them unique? What about them? And one of them is when somebody's boss leaves the company and then comes back to poach them, that is such a strong signal. Because if you think of what just happened, the person left the leader who knows exactly how good this person you're talking to is they have the most knowledge of the performance of this individual. They left the company. They've come back to poach them, putting their own reputation at risk by coming back,

depending on the situation. And they would never do that unless this person was really, really good. So you know, you don't want to over pivot on one signal. You want to look at the full picture, but those are the types of things I look at to bring in top talent. And I've got this whole playbook mistakes I've made that I've learned from things to avoid. And over the years, I've put together this playbook that I try to follow. And I'm always running a little experiments to try to make it better. We're going to link to that blueprint that you mentioned. A lot of what you're talking about is probably more relevant to like a senior executive

type people because you're looking for, or maybe not because you're looking for savings three. Okay. So people like early in their career could also have three, say, moments of excellence. Yeah. I mean, just just thinking off top, it depends on the type of person you're hiring, but have they, you know, are their founder? Have they tried to do something?

Did they win an award somewhere? Are they, you know, a gold medalist did something? Have they done something that others have not? That shows grit, that shows drive, that shows the ability to succeed. And I've seen that you can apply that to any candidate you're hiring. And the implication there is without that, they're probably not going to be stars. There's a strong correlation between having signs of excellence and them performing really well in this role. Correct. Exactly.

It would be, I mean, I suppose it's possible, but it would be pretty rare that somebody would come in without some sign that they stand above the crowd. And again, I'm talking about you generally want to hire the top 1% of candidates. So when you're looking for the best of the best, you definitely are looking for those signals. Awesome. Okay. So I'm going to bring us back on the agenda that I had for myself, which is I want to start with talking about advisorships and advising and growth advisors. You've been a growth advisor for a long time to some of the most amazing companies out there, Twitter, Pinterest, Patreon, Canva, Thumbtack. I'm sure there's others that you don't list that are more informal. They work at Shopify. And so what I think about here is a lot of founders

are often think about, should I bring on an advisor? What should I look for an advisor? I've heard stories of advisors being useless sometimes. People tell me I don't need advisors. So I guess the question here is just, what's your take on when it makes sense to bring on and consider bringing on a growth advisor? And what should people look for when they're exploring

and talking to a potential growth advisor? A few thoughts. in terms of when I don't think you can probably come into a really. It's probably harder to find really good ones than it is to time it. But generally speaking, I would say you don't want to focus too much on growth until you have product

market fit. So make sure you have a product that users love that's either showing strong signs of retention or has some good loop that you can see that you can start thinking about growth. Let me follow on that thread real quick because I find some founders still want to have someone come help them with growth even though they know they don't have product market fit,

even though this tip comes up every single time when I'm talking to growth person, like wait until you have product market fit before doing growth stuff. So could you just add like a little bit of why that's important while we're on that topic? Growth advice is generally always applicable. And if you can start thinking about how to build your product early, even if it's pre-product market fit, you're not going to do any damage, but you may be wasting some capital on an advisor or a growth person too early. The problem that I see is if you start growing a product that doesn't have product market fit,

you're actually doing more damage than good because you have a product that is now being exposed to the market through growth levers and through optimization that is giving a bad experience with your product. And you want that product that product that you know is tight and you know has product market fit to start building a flywheel and start growing. You don't want it to be growing if it doesn't satisfy that need that you're trying to build out for. So I can see it having more damage than good because when somebody tries something, they're unlikely to try it again. And so that's that's the dangerous game you can get into. So you're better off with a good product that's satisfying a need and then growing from there. I will say to kind of play devil's

advocate with myself and something that I've done, actually, in one of the products, I've built several consumer products and grown them, is that sometimes to know if you have a product, you need users to use it. So there's like some subtlety in here, but I would say if you are trying to get users in to start playing with it at scale, I mean, try to focus in on a market that is maybe off the grid, like pick a country that's, some English-speaking country that's a bit off-the-grid that you can isolate your marketing too, so you can start getting dozens or a couple hundred people per day

coming in and giving you feedback. I've seen that work too. So I'd say, wait till you have product market fit. If you do start growing your product early because you need that signal from people actually using it beyond just focus groups and friends or small numbers of people, try to do it off-the-grid in smaller markets that you can kind of contain the growth

and get what you're really trying to get, which is that signal on. Is it working or not? Awesome. Okay. I throw us off track. Let's get back on track. So we were talking about when it makes sense to find a growth advisor and then what to look for in someone that you might want to work with.

I mean, what makes a great growth advisor is somebody who really understands what to do, but also why certain growth levers work. It's that kind of deep understanding of levers of onboarding or whatever area they're focusing on that really makes growth advisor standout. So when you're looking for a growth advisor, you want to have those discussions to see, like, how much depth does this person have? Have they, you know, seen a playbook and they're just good at repeating the playbook, or are they evolving, are they growing? And the best way to get to know that is to start really asking them questions about growth and growth advising and there's certain things that they've done and why they think

those have worked. This can be tricky if you don't yourself, no growth. So I think one, one thing that I have not seen a lot of founders do that I would advise is if you have an advisor already, because this applies to finding growth advisors, but it also applies to hiring the growth talent. So if you have somebody you know, whether it's already an advisor or somebody who knows growth, you can solicit their help in trying to flush out whether somebody you're trying to hire is of high talent. So if you have an advisor, you can make that one of their roles is vet out any new talent coming in. And if you're looking for an advisor, try to, to, find somebody that you know and trust who can do that first pass because for somebody who

knows growth that you trust, it's actually not a lot of work for them to vet out, have talented someone else's. And it's an easy ask to make and something that if you have that person of your network or that work with you that you can leverage for. But I haven't seen that too often where founders kind of take advantage of people they know or existing growth advisors to help recruit and vet talent because it can be quite hard if you don't know the growth space to know if somebody's good or not. That's a really interesting idea. And it could be where you find someone that's too busy to work with you, but maybe you could

just ask, hey, could usually help me vet people? And it takes a lot less time. Yeah, I've never been asked that, which is, I mean, I don't know if I'll start getting asked this now, but it does seem like that's a really simple way to add a ton of value. And as a founder, I mean, even if you have to pay this person or whatever you have to do, but it's, it's such an important hire to get right. you know, we talk about the 10x engineer and we don't really talk about the 10x growth advisor or 10x growth person, but the same dynamic applies, you could argue, applies even more because the right growth advisor can have literally company changing impact

where they're either building or helping the ideate or helping to implement a growth loop that literally changes the company. As we know, you need a great product and you need a great growth loop. And it's usually just one loop that you need to get right. have gotten to where they are just off of one really strong channel that they've just dominated. So it's important to get right. Is there an example of that sort of impact that you've seen in your advisership or other people's of just an impact from one conversation or a little bit of a help? Definitely. And I think what I would point to is the advantage of a growth advisor is it takes a long time

to understand a channel. And certainly, you know, people have to know their stuff. They have to be very good at their craft, their growth, but also they have to be exposed to a large set of experiments or an environment where they've just seen what works and what does it. So no matter how good somebody is, if they haven't been exposed to an environment where there's a lot of experimentation, a lot of learning, it's very hard for them to internalize that. So once a growth advisor has that, it takes years to learn it, but it literally can take

seconds, literally, to communicate that. So I've worked with some companies that you've mentioned and certainly have had impact very quickly. One example would be a company that I worked with, now a public company at the time they weren't. On day one, walked in, they presented their strategy, their plans, their funnels, and their landing pages. And I could see very quickly that there was something they were doing that was a little off. And I asked them, why are you doing it that way? And they said, well, we think it just looks better that way. And I said, well, just do it this other way.

And I remember this because it was such a short conversation. And then three weeks later, we connected and I heard they had rolled it out and there was a large impact that they had from this one change. And it's just a good example of, this has happened many times with the companies I work with. But it's a good example that it's not actually, once you know it, it's not hard to recognize it and to, if you deeply understand it, to give advice. But it takes a long time to get the base knowledge. So I don't do these too often anymore. But when I do advise, I take them very seriously. I focus exclusively on having impact.

And I think that's really important because, like you say, there's a lot of advisors out there. Some of them are great. Some of them, you know, different qualities. And you really want to make sure that if you are an advisor, you want to be in the camp of, you know, when this person comes in, they have a lot of impact. And it takes time and focus and energy and alignment. And there's a bunch of things we can talk about that that helps to drive that alignment. But having impact is the most important thing, whether you're an advisor,

or if you're hiring. And because it's one of those weird disciplines where the right person at the right time can literally say a sentence that changes the trajectory of your company. You can't say that for a lot of different disciplines, but this is one of them. There's that word impact again. Impact, impact.

The point you just made about how one conversation can have a ton of impact is a reminder of why sometimes the price of an advisor feels absurd. Or like, for one hour, it's like thousands of dollars. But it's because obviously they spent a decade learning a thing and one conversation is all of that work they put into it crystallized for you in the moment. Exactly. And it's something I've experienced several times in hindsight when you're like, okay, here's the needle in the haystack. And then it's implemented. And you can see hundreds of percentages. Sometimes over a thousand percent lift when you get it right. It's exhilarating. It's great.

I have something I used to say, which is you want your impact to be so big. There's a slide in the next board deck on like trying to explain what happened. And that can happen when you're advising companies because you're able to share very quickly insights. But one way to drive alignment is not everybody can do this, not all advisors do it this way, but I personally love just when I do these, which is not that frequent, just purely doing equity. And because I love the alignment in outcomes where the founder will be successful and you will be successful. So the incentive are really good to drive the right performance and the right outcomes that you want as a founder. So if you can do it, I would definitely advise founders to bring advisors in for equity, if you can.

And I think the same applies for your internal growth team. You want to make sure that the teams are incentivized, not on activities, on doing stuff, because there's a lot of stuff to be done in growth, but really driving the outcomes that you want. And equity is just a great way of saying, hey, we're in this together. or one on the same side of the table. Let's grow, grow this company. I was actually about to ask you what kind of structure you recommend for an advisership. Is there anything else you can share about just like what you'd recommend a founder do in terms of compensation for an advisor?

It's a couple of things. I mean, I do, I'm a big fan of equity because of the alignment of incentives. You should think about without getting into too much detail of the actual structure of the deals, but think about how you vest the equity. The last thing you want is an advisor holding back on sharing knowledge. The ideal engagement, would be an advisor comes in, delivers as much value as possible quickly, and then trains your team, and then maybe it's a one-year engagement, and hopefully they've learned because the advisor's been incentivized to share as much as possible and to train the team as much as possible. And then ideally, you don't need them anymore after.

So there's something there about structuring equity vesting. I'm a big fan of vesting earlier rather than later. So think about it in terms of structure your vesting, commensurate with the value you want. which is very much front-loaded. I'm also a big fan of three-month cliffs, something I've done, I always do, actually, is, listen, in the first three months, you'll know both sides if it's working or not,

and you want to de-risk that on both sides, because it really should be seen as a partnership between the advisor and the founder. And if the founder thinks you're not adding value in the first few months, I think they should just tear it up and both sides move on. It's not good for the founder to continue the deal,

and it's not good, frankly, for the advisor, because they're not for some reason able to add value in that environment. So I love a three-month cliff at the beginning where if it's not working in the first three months, you tear up the deal and both parties walk away and it de-risk the entire thing. And again, drives incentives in the right way where the advisor is a 100% incentivized at as much value as fast as possible. So that's another thing that I tend to do and I've done it for a long time. That's a really good tip.

Basically, don't do four-year investing for advisors. probably not even two-year, but yeah. There's a bunch of ways to do it. Honestly, it's hard enough to find growth advisors that have capacity. So you got to also say, like, what can you do that the advisor is comfortable with? But yeah, I mean, just to be candid, I think you want to structure in a way where you're not dependent on the advisor over time. They're adding a ton of value.

They're helping teach the team. They're probably bouncing around because your company's changing, your team's changing, your leaders are changing. But over time, and, you know, that can be, it can be years. but it shouldn't be indefinite. You shouldn't need an advisor forever. I've seen a scenario where there's desire to keep the advisor out almost as insurance. Like if something goes wrong, I just wanted to be able to pick up the phone.

That can make sense. But I do think a good growth advisor is incentivized to share as much as possible, as fast as possible, to have impact, to train your team. And then whether you want to keep them on or not long term as an insurance policy or just to answer questions as things change, that should be a choice and not because if we lose the advisor, we're completely screwed. That would be a bad place for you to be in as a founder. You said it's hard to find a good advisor.

100% agree. Any advice for people to help them find an advisor that might be the right fit? Yeah, I'll say there's more of them these days than there were even just five years ago or 10 years ago. I would start with, depending on your situation, if you're a founder, I would start with your investors. I think VCs have an amazing network of, advisors, I get, I don't know, a couple requests a week that I'm not taking right now, but that from my experience and what I've seen, that's probably the high, especially the high

end VCs, the very talented VCs will have this network. And frankly, it's a great partnership as an advisor for you to have, you can help the companies, you can help the VCs and it helps you. So everybody wins. Just asking other founders of it had good experience, much like hiring. The third advice I would give is to find companies that are world class at what you're trying to row, what channel or skill you're looking at, and then reach out and see if there's a way to help that way. That's actually how I got started. I was at TripAdvisor and a prominent VC reached out. One of the companies they were working with needed some help on SEO. I was still in Canada at the time, got connected with them, had a phone call, had a significant impact through that one phone call.

And rather than joining as an advisor, I essentially helped them out, pro bono in exchange for, hey, I want to get connected in the valley. So I was in Canada. I want to start another company. I wanted to get connected. So through that tactic where they reached out to a company that was known to be world class at SCO, I think that was really smart on this VC's part. And then maybe some advice to up and coming growth advisors would be, you know, that first

one, I didn't take a single shred of equity or money and just tried to have as much impact as possible and to help out this company as much as possible. and then make sure that I was able to get connected to other people that I wanted to meet in the Bay Area and then kind of thing snowballed from there. I definitely want to chat about how to become a growth advisor because I think people listening here might be like, oh, that sounds pretty good someday maybe I'll become a growth advisor. But before we get to that, what are things that an advisor are best suited for versus finding someone full-time versus no one?

What are the ideal kind of problem sets for an advisor versus a full-time higher person? I would say your ideal setup is always, your preference should always be to have somebody in house. I'll start there because you want to have that as part of the culture. There's so much more that they can do when they're in house. That being said, if you can't find somebody in house, then bring on an advisor, even if you bring on an advisor, some advice to founders would be you want to surround your team or one person that you've identified who's just an amazing world-class doer, even if they don't, no growth with a set of growth advisors so that they're learning, that's being put through

the culture of the company and that that knowledge is stays inside of the company. So I'd say you generally prefer, I would prefer to go internal, surround these people with great advisors and then and then take it from there. That would be how I approach it. Okay, so two thoughts here. One is I feel like this podcast is becoming an interesting way to discover awesome growth advisors. and I think over time I'm building this directory of like who are awesome smart growth people that are open to advising. So that could be an interesting opportunity. Just look at you the folks on this podcast and that's, yeah, there's some great people

that have been out of here. Definitely. It's only working my way through all the amazingly smart growth people and product leaders. The other is I've noticed that a lot of the best growth advisors have worked with the same sorts of companies. I find Bureau comes up a lot. Canva comes up a lot. Pinterest.

Like all these people that have worked. with say Pinterest that I hear about are just awesome. Casey comes to mine, Melissa Tan, who's coming out as a podcast. I think she worked with them at Dropbox. Anyway, so maybe one idea is see who these companies work with as advisors. And that can maybe point you to people that are worth exploring. I mean, that's a good idea. It kind of goes back to something I mentioned earlier,

which is companies that have a lot of traffic and that have a lot of users are great learning ground for growth people and for advisors. because no matter how smart you are, you need the reps. You got to go to the growth gym and put in the reps, which is experiments. You've got to try things. Things are going to work. Things aren't going to work. And there's a discipline of like when something doesn't work, you can learn almost as

much as when something works. But you need that traffic. You need that environment. And that's why certain companies have these great people coming out like Casey at Pinterest and other people that have been at these companies that have the traffic, have the culture to support it to support growth. And I think that's, I don't think it's a coincidence-wise. some of these companies have some great people coming from them.

The other tip I just thought about as you were talking is, everyone's launching a Substack newsletter that is doing any sort of advising because there's a lot of power in building an audience, creating kind of awareness of what you do. So I wonder if another tip is search Substacks directory of newsletters for specific things you're dealing with, like say, go to market or PLG or sales, and you might find someone there. I haven't done that, but that seems like a reasonable way to do it.

It's where they're all heading. I'm not saying that the people on Substack have this, but as advice to the people listening is when you're vetting for a growth advisor or growth talent, don't just wait it on the public halo of somebody. That's a common mistake I've seen where maybe somebody's done presentations at a conference or somebody's done, I don't know, but their Twitter following is broad. They can be excellent. That's not a disqualifier immediately, but just make sure not to make the hire just exclusively on that.

I've made that mistake a few times, and it's a common one to get into. So make sure you're vetting properly, even if somebody with a large following that substack or Twitter. That's, I think, an important thing to keep in mind. 1,000% agree. I always say that the best product leaders, the best growth people, don't have time to sit on Twitter and tweet and write newsletters. They're doing the job, working, building, growing, and maybe eventually they get out of that

and start writing, but I 1,000% agree. There's a lot of people. Not to disqualify all the people on Twitter. Twitter. Some of them are tweeting these belt, but my point is just, just be, don't overpivot on the halo. Just do your, look at their past performance, what teams have they been on, what environment that they have, do they really know growth? And sometimes they do, but I think it's a common mistake to say, oh, yeah, they have a large following. Let's hire this person. 1,000% agree. Yeah. Rarely does a celebrity kind of hire that seems really genius on Twitter

and substack end up being as amazing as you think. Yeah, it does happen. Yeah. It does happen. Absolutely. One last question around this topic. People listening might want to become growth advisors. I mentioned this earlier. Is there any other advice you want to share just like, if you want to become a growth advisor someday, here's what you should think about. Yeah, I think the right mental model as a growth advisor is the same one as an investor. So the most important thing an advisor can do, aside from having impact and knowing their craft, is picking which companies to work with, especially if you're working for equity. So I'll only speak to that, but you're basically putting in your time, you're picking a, likely a smaller number. You only have so many hours in the day

of companies to work with. And you want to make sure there's a likely exit in the future. So for me personally, I have a spreadsheet like most big decisions that I make in my life. And over the years, I've just added criteria and questions to ask myself about the company and then reflect on, okay, is this kind of checking all the boxes for a likely outcome because you don't just need to be successful. You need to be successful and for the company to be successful and for there to be liquidity of that. So you need to put yourself in the shoes of an investor and look at it as an investment. That is the arguably the most important thing is you can go and do a great job and then wait many years and potentially not see any reward for it. And I think that's the nice thing about

the equity structure and that you're tied in the same, um, incentives with the founder, which is just great in terms of any relationship to have the same incentives. But you want to make sure that there's a good likelihood of a decent outcome down the road. The other, if I can throw another one in, the other piece of advice I would give is it can take a long time for some of these companies to be successful. That's okay. You should expect that. In fact, you should just go in with that mindset. When I'm deciding to work with a company, I'm in there for 10 years. And I know that. And I say that as I'm in. I'm in. We're running this together if I choose to work with the company.

But it does mean that the structure of the deal needs to reflect that. So you need to have a long tail at the end. So if you're taking options or RSUs and it's purely equity, make sure you have the time for that to happen. There would be nothing worse than putting in your heart and soul having impact and then waiting, I don't know, a couple of years and then your equity expires. So you make sure there's a long tail. I mean, it can take, it can literally take over 10 years for these companies exit. And you should be okay with that. I think that's okay.

You're taking some risk. They're taking some risk on you, and that's a great partnership, but you'll just need the time for that. So advice to growth advisors, make sure to ask for a long tail so that you don't end up in a bad spot in the end, and that incentives, again, are perfectly aligned between the founder and the advisor. This episode is brought to you by Epo.

Epo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb Alums for modern growth teams. Companies like Draft Kings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch, and Cameo, rely on Epo to power their experiments. Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern growth team stack. This leads to waste of time building internal tools or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool. When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform, where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage. Epo does all that

and more delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover. Epo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics and instead use your North Star metrics, like activation, retention, subscription, and payments. Epo supports test on the front end, on the back end, email marketing, even machine learning clients. Check at Epo at get-ePO.com. That's getepo.com and 10x your experiment velocity.

So I want to segue to a different topic, SEO. You're kind of the... you tell me, but it feels like you're one of the earliest SEO people in tech. You helped grow TripAdvisor many years ago, and it was mostly SEO driven. I think innovated a lot of SEO tactics and strategies. And then you help Pinterest, Thumbtack, other companies that are very SEO driven. You talked about how many companies grow through one channel, and these are all very SEO-driven companies.

I imagine Shopify has a lot of SEO work that's happening right now with you there. And so I want to chat about SEO. So I guess broadly, SEO is like, it's like this amazing growth channel. It's like basically free. It continues to work after you stop doing any work on it, you know, for a while. Many founders think about should we invest in SEO? How do we approach SEO? So maybe just as a first question, what are signs that your product and company is a good fit for SEO being potentially a huge channel for growth?

Yeah, I've been doing SEO for a really long time. It's a lot of fun. And certainly being a trip advisor was a great learning ground. for that, that we're able to really innovate and try new things there in terms of the playbook that we built out. That was a lot of fun those years. A couple thoughts. The first one would be, I do think there's an SEO play in any company, maybe to different

extent, but Google is such a large funnel of existing demand for your product or your product area that there's usually an angle to get some SEO traffic there. So I do think it applies to most companies. I would say if you're an early product that's never seen, that the world's never seen, it's a brand new, brand new thing. There might be some creation, some demand creation you need to do, but most of the time there's existing demand in Google where you can harvest demand, or there's queries that are related to your topic that you can start ranking for

to start building brand awareness. So there's always some angle. And then I kind of divide websites or online products into two categories. There's the ones which are smaller sites, small number of pages, very targeted at your product, and don't have this kind of loop of creating new pages automatically. This would be most e-commerce sites, actually. We would have a number of pages around the products and about us, those types of pages. That's one type of sites.

Let's say they have a dozen pages. And then there's other ones with thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of pages, which are either user-generated content like TripAdvisor and Pinterest and others or Marketplace. like Thumb Attack and other types of websites like that. Those are generally easier to see a huge amount of impact very quickly because there's such a large optimization surface and ideally it's growing and generating traffic automatically. Voice thought of LinkedIn is just a great example of this

where you have this viral loop where you would, you recall when it was just starting, everybody was getting these invites from LinkedIn, and those come and go, you get an invite, you register, you don't, that happens. But the byproduct is when people join, they create this beautiful landing page, which is your profile, that gets indexed. It's kind of like a viral loop feeding an SEO loop that continues to grow. So that's a good example of user generated content, which kind of feeds on itself and grows. So those two categories, going back to the first category, if you only have a small handful of pages,

the way to think about that is you certainly want to optimize those pages. Then you want to start creating content that speaks to your audience beyond that. So you need a content strategy, whether it's a lot. blog or creating new parts of your site that address questions that your audience might have. But generally speaking, I think there's an SEO play in any company, and there's just different tactics, strategies, and approaches to get there. Awesome. I never thought of it that way that there's kind of these two buckets.

So the first bucket is like you don't have a ton of pages that naturally are generated as a part of your experience. And the second is you do. And I guess in the second bucket, I think of Reddit and Glass Door and Cora, TripAdvisor. great example of interest. In the first bucket is the way to generate pages. Basically, it's like editorially, like create, like write content, have people write things for you.

Is that generally the strategy? Different ways of doing it, but a good content strategy is a, kind of tried and true approach, definitely. And in that bucket, if you don't naturally have a ton of pages, can you primarily grow through SEO? Or is SEO always going to be this minority channel? And you have to find something else. No, you can, it can be a big channel.

And this is also about creating. content, but it's not your users creating the content. You have to go create the content and have some high-quality answer to a question that's being asked on Google. And, you know, I think one thing to keep in mind with SEO is entire industries are based off of single keywords. I remember when I was in the travel industry that, you know, literally companies were bought and sold based on one keyword rank. So it's not like, oh, it's a little bit of traffic. And I think this is a bit unintuitive with growth. A lot of people you'll think of growth as linear or it's another channel it's another thing.

I mean, growth done right is exponential. It literally is company changing. When he's talking specifically about SEO, keep in mind, the world is searching for that thing on that one, targeted on that one, that one keyword and likely are clicking the number one search result. So getting that number one spot is not like,

oh, that's a little bit of traffic. You can literally build an entire business around that first spot. So don't think that's, well, maybe it is commonly known. I'm not sure, but it's definitely something that is not. obvious or intuitive, I think, to most people. And if you have an entire SEO team working on one keyword, I don't think that's crazy.

Because one or a small number of keywords can define an entire industry or a business. Is there an example of that sort of situation, one keyword building a massive company? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot, I'm sure. I can speak to my own company that I sold to TripAdvisor. It was called TravelPod. It was a travel blogging website where you can think WordPress but for travel, which I started early.

It was for site to do that. And I made the mistake of not knowing SEO or growth before I sold the company. And so that was a great learning for me when I went in. This is the story where we're looking to acquire another site. And I thought the product was pretty poor. And I remember talking to the founder and thinking he'd asked me if we'd want to acquire it. And the product's terrible. Why would I want to acquire that?

He's like, yeah, they're 10 times bigger than you. What? And that was when I realized, okay, we've been building a great product and great engineering culture and it is important, but you really need to know this growth stuff. That's actually the moment I shifted to all right, we have to really know these growth levers. And in that space, the number one keyword was travel law. And so owning that was a big deal.

And we did not own it. And we, I think we were ranked number two for a really long time. I can't remember if we got it in the end. But that's just one example where, and there was many, many travel businesses where I always love looking at a business and trying to figure out, what's their growth loop? Like, how did they do that? And it's not like, oh, it's great business. It just grew up. Most of the time, it's, you know, price line crush it at SCM. Facebook crush it on a viral loop where you got tagged in a photo, you got an email and you had to go register because there's a photo of you someone you really want

to see. Trivise is a great job at SEO. And it's often, it's just one really strong channel that propelled the company forward. And in this case, it can literally come down on one keyword like like we had a travel pod. It might be a good time just to give a a people mental model of the different channels slash loops that exists. So you've talked about SEO is one, paid search as one. What are the, what's like the collection for people to think about? And like, usually as you said, one of these is the primary source of growth for a company. Yeah, there's a, there's a variety of them. I think you have to look at where the intent is right now. And it does change over time, but you have social channels like TikTok, Instagram.

Influencers are a great area to engage with there. You have SEO. You have search. I think chat GPT is another upcoming one that we might want to talk about a little bit, where I do think we've never seen that kind of growth for search before. And that's a platform that we have to start thinking about. How do we optimize for it? And Google just announced there are recent changes. They're going to be putting in an AI box at the top of the search results. How do you optimize in a world where it's not so much about optimizing for the platform,

but teaching the AI what you do and why you're the best in the world at it? So that's that's another, a whole other area we could talk about. But that's a big channel. I think that that's growing. Biro loops are always a powerful thing if you can get them to work. That's more about psychology and channel optimization, where you want people to be incentivized to share the product that you have with their friends and then to have their friends come back and register.

So you can have one viral loop. You can have secondary viral loops. You can bolt virus loops on their existing products. There's different ways of doing this. And then, you know, just backing up, when I think, about growth, I don't think about a specific, it's not growth equals SEO and Instagram. For me, growth equals whatever it takes to move the needle. So I get this question all the time. How do you build a growth team? What does a growth team do? And I say, whatever it takes.

And that could be zero to one building a new product. It could be MNA. It could be SEO. It could be onboarding. And I think that's a better framework to look at. And then if you look at it through that lens, then, you know, partnerships easily folds into that where I've seen a lot of businesses get very big on just really clever partnerships, either strategic or broad kind of affiliate-based partnerships. So there's a lot of channels. I definitely wouldn't restrict the scope of a growth team to just a small subset, but have a very wide funnel in terms of, or at least strategy in terms of just test a lot of

different things and go after the channels that work and pivot, pivot when it does, and then really lean into the one or two or three that really work, because sometimes that's all it takes for business. Well, you definitely nerds. snip me with the chat GPTTs. So let's just spend some time there. I think this relates to just the general sense that SEO is always changing and it feels like this is an SMM, I guess, in this case, too. And chat GPT and BART, I guess, is maybe the latest change. So what should we know there? Yeah, I think we're all still trying to figure it out. I was at Google Io last week or the week before.

And as soon as I saw the search result with the big box of AI answers at the top, having done this for so long, I immediately knew the impact that I think is about to come. And I've seen this play out in travel where Google acquired ITA and did flight search and hotel search. Generally, it's great for users and great for Google and the search engines, but makes it a little bit difficult for the publishers and the sites that are adding value to the ecosystem through being ranked in the search results. So what we're about to see is basically Google, what they showed was a big box on top of the search results that answers the query directly. So if you think about that, that means that there's a lot of queries right now that are,

that users are clicking through down on the organic links and getting their answer there, which will be answered directly in the search result. We've seen this play out over the last 10 or five to 10 years where more and more answers are being shown at the top. Every time something changes, entire industries are disrupted or changed. And I think that's going to happen again. So there's different types of keywords. There's transactional ones like e-commerce keywords and with purchase intent.

There's navigational ones where you're trying to get somewhere. And there's informational keywords, which is, I have a question. I'm looking for an answer. It's pretty broad. It's a big area. I think that last category of keywords is particularly a risk. So if anybody listening to this is currently getting traffic on those, you should start thinking about what does that mean when things start changing.

And I think the changes will be, we'll probably start seeing. things shift to paid. You have to pay for that free traffic. And the second one is there may just be a case where those keywords just don't get many clicks anymore. You might drop down to a very small number of clicks, if at all, because answers will get questions will get answered directly in the search results. So it's a big shift. We have to see how things land, but that's, I think, over the next 12 to 24 months, if history repeats itself, we'll see that channel change. And we've seen this play out at all the different channels. They kind of evolve. Generally, you can't blame the companies are doing what they have to do. Chat CPT is now 50% of my daily searches and not Google.

So I think Google has to react and this is what we'll see. So from a growth perspective, definitely something to start to think about. Super fascinating. I think about my newsletter and now Google suck it all up and just tell you all the answers. Great. Good news for me. And you publish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And change is great. You know, things don't. It's exciting. It's exciting. We haven't had a big, like, just gicking out on growth a little bit. We haven't had a big platform change in a long time. So I'm like, all right, cool. We get to, let's go see what we can do here. How do you optimize this? How do you, how do you get listed if you can? We're not sure where the placements will be, but that will be the new game. Yeah. There's actually a lennybott.com that is a

GPT bot trained on my content that there's a newsletter post about how it was all built so you could build your own. And so I think my new goal is going to have to be to convince people to go to Lennybot.com instead of Google. Wish me luck. Hey, that's just, you got to lean into it. Yeah, we have a shop.AI, this great AI-based shopping engine. I'll tell you, I bought so much on it. It's so good. It's the more you use these technologies, the more you realize how good they are and that's something big is coming. It's not just, oh yeah, there's another change. I was summarizing the Google changes to some people. Originally I was thinking, this is the biggest change in the last 10 years.

And then when I reflected on the last 10 years, I thought, this is actually the biggest change since the inception of Google, actually. I don't think we've seen something as profound as what's coming. And you really need to get ready for it. Damn. Yeah. I've been using ChatGPT for helping me with interview questions, actually. And once in a while, there's like a really good one.

That's cool. So thank you, ChatGPT, bringing me good things also. Maybe one more question along these lines around kind of connecting advisorship. in SEO, would you suggest when you're starting to think about SEO, starting to invest in SEO, you might be listening to this feeling like, I got to think about a CEO. Does it make sense to bring on, say, SEO advisor like you? I know you're not available currently, but other folks like you, or are an agency that is really good at this stuff, or bring on someone full time. Do you have any kind of frameworks for thinking about which direction to go? It's hard for an agency or a pure

advisor without internal help to do it a really good job without internal talent at the center. So I would say I would start with just hire somebody internally and give them the mandate to and incentivize them correctly to go and own this channel. Even if they don't know SEO, my advice would be hire, get an engineer, get somebody who is just a relentless doer who wants to learn this and surround them with great advisors. I've just seen that work really well. There are some good agencies out there. Agencies will be working with multiple companies, so it's a little bit harder to get the same impact from an agency. It can work sometimes, but my preference is generally, alas resort would be an agency. And I'd much rather have somebody who's internal, who knows the business, who knows the keywords,

who knows who can have the knowledge internally inside the company permanently and help grow a team around them. And have succession in place in a proper team so that you're not too dependent on this one person. But that would be my go-to. And then if you're really stuck, you can use agencies. but my default would be having somebody internal supplemented with agencies if you have to. SEO is very specific. I mean, it's a very tight channel that knowing certain things about it can have a big impact. And I think you do want people that have that experience that can bring that in from the outside to augment the internal teams or it'll take a really long time to learn it.

Awesome. I was going to ask that. So you ideally want to find someone that's done. done it before. That isn't just a relentless learner, but like, is that plus has done SEO in the past? Oh, yeah. Ideally, you hire an amazing SEO person you can reign internal. Second would be somebody amazing who can get things done, surround them with advisors. And then in my stack rank will probably be, third would be agencies. Awesome. And then the other kind of common issue with SEO is it takes a long time to show impact. Do you have just a rule of thumb of just like give them

this much time to see if they can make an impact? I'd say a few things. I'd say if you already have content and pages that are pretty good and getting a decent amount of traffic, it doesn't necessarily have to take a long time. So that would be my first reaction. It can take a long time. Generally, it takes a long time when you have to build new content. So the way to think about Google is, it is going to take your content. It's going to show it to its users, people that are searching, and it's going to determine which piece of content is the best to rank highly. It's not just about little tricks and links and keyword ratios. Those days are over. Those do matter, But it's not purely about that.

And if you have a new piece of content, it takes time for Google to build enough trust to say, okay, I'm going to start showing this to users now, and then start collecting user feedback, and then rank it appropriately. That can take some time. But if you have existing pages that are ranking eight and they're already on the first page, it doesn't always happen. But I've certainly seen it. In fact, more common than not that you can have sometimes hundreds of percent. of lift very quickly. It depends what you're starting with. It's probably the right way to think about it.

So if I'm trying to summarize it, I would say 12 months is probably like max. If you can't see impact in 12 months is something wrong. If you have existing content, it could happen pretty early. Could happen on day one. Actually, I've seen that happen. It could happen. If you have to build new parts of the site, it can take months. I've seen that happen in companies I've worked with where I think it would be like a quarter. We had to wait until we saw a big lift. So it's somewhere between, you know, three to 12 months. Yeah. Awesome.

That's really helpful. Okay. So final topic slash final question. You've had a truly incredible career. You've worked with incredible companies, incredible leaders. I'm looking at your site here in a side window and you're like, here's a picture of you and Zuck. Here's a picture of you and Toby from shop why. And there's a, there's more.

And I'm curious what you believe has been key to your success and your career success. that you suggest listeners who want to have some measure of similar success do. It's probably a bunch of things we can talk about here. Yeah, this is the obvious thing is like, I think you've just got to love what you do. You've got to work hard. You have that impact. Certainly, at the end of the day, in growth, that's all that will matter. If I think back to specific things that I do, though, that are to pick one thing that's been very important for me throughout my journey is that,

art of self-reflection and and coaches. I've had coaches my whole career, but the macro theme is you're constantly iterating, experimenting at becoming the best you can be in your career, also as a dad and as a husband, and work for your own personal health. But that reflection is so important. And I've leveraged many, many different coaches over the years and now do a lot of self-reflection through a morning routine that I have and that I've been doing for quite some time that has been a big unlock for me.

And the biggest, most important part of that morning routine is like dedicating an hour aside to really think about what's going well, what's not going well, what am I screwing up? Well, why am I screwing it up, which is often more important than what am I screwing up? And of course, what am I going to do about it? But as long as you're learning and iterating every day, then you're just making constant progress towards your goals. And it's something I do that I love doing. I love thinking.

So I literally can just sit there and think for hours, actually. And I have a dashboard on all the areas that I'm focusing on with red, yellow, green, and just constantly revving on what am I working on improving? What am I doing? What experiments am I running? And where am I doing well? And where am I not doing well? And how can I be better in all areas of my life, including being a leader?

So there's a lot of different things to it. But I think that's really important. And something that I've learned over the years, that is probably the most valuable to have as a skill. Okay, I definitely want to spend more time on this. So you said you sit for an hour reflecting on what's going well, what's not going well. Is there more you can share about how you accomplish that, how you find time to do this for an hour? Yeah, it sounds crazy when you say it, but I do.

So I wake up at five. I work out, so I do cardio, do some exercise. This is a great book called Spark, which is all around the neuroscience of exercise. and really learned a lot from that in terms of having this great morning routine that really boots you up. I kind of call it my bootloader. When I start in the day, if I go through my bootloader, I have a much better day. So exercise, stretching, meditation, and then I do a cold plunge now. So do a bunch of different things.

But then I do some reading, but I do carve aside, yeah, one hour where I go through, and this is probably important. It's kind of where I've landed, but structural. self-reflections. That's why I have this dashboard. I have certain areas that I think about what's going well, what's not. I track all the experiments I'm writing. And I'm just really passionate about if you're going to do something, try to do it as best as you can. And this is a habit that has allowed me to kind of sharpen my skills in certain areas. What are some of these things you're working on if you can share what's on his dashboard? How can people imagine what this might be?

So there's a lot of personal stuff on it, but it literally is broken down between, you know, being a better friend, better husband, better dad, and then better leader. And so on the personal side, I've been known to to work a lot of times. You know, balance is always hard to find. And, you know, from being a dad and then thinking about how to be better there, I realized, you know, about six months ago that I've never actually asked for feedback on how to. I'm doing. So I asked my kids six months ago, I asked both of them independently, what's one thing I can do to be a better to do more of or do less of to be a better dad. And, you know, they were kind of caught off guard by it. My son's 15 and my other son is 12. And I said, it takes some time to think about it. And after about a month, my son came back and

said, dad, I got one. He said, I want to spend more time with you. So I, you know, that was, that was very helpful for me to hear. And I'm big on routines and habits to make sure the things that you want to do are repeatable and it's not one-off thing. So ever since that day, I've now have a daddy date, if you want to call it. But every two weeks we do one-on-one time together with each of the boys, they get to pick what we do.

Just a way of that consistent, whether it's dinner. or play basketball in the front, but it's, you know, it's all about feedback. So that's one example on the personal side. This reminds me of a tweet I just saw where someone said that the only people that are going to remember that you worked late

for many nights is your kids. Wow. Wow. That's deep. Yeah. I like that a lot. No, is it a soon-to-be parent that's going to stick with me? Wow, I like that a lot.

So it's tough, right? It's tough to balance it all out. It's very difficult because you want to sell at everything we do in life. And that reflection helps be a check-in as well of like, how am I doing in all these areas? And I find the color coding is helpful for that too, of just doing a bit of a gut check and asking for that feedback. This also makes me think about, I was watching Jeff Bezos interview and ask him what his morning routine was. And he said that he just likes to put her around. He likes to just sit around, talk to his kids, read the newspaper.

Like, he doesn't book any meetings in the morning because he just finds these. just needs like a little flex time at the beginning. Totally. So I read, before I became a dad, I read somewhere that one of the most impactful things you can do as a father is just be there for dinner every night. So I have been there for 15 years every single night. But as a good reminder, it's not enough. You know, having dinner is important with your family, but in our case, there's, there's more you can do. And just getting that feedback and doing some reprioritization is always important. Speaking of dinners and maybe just as the last question, I know you do this really interesting thing

where you have dinners with interesting people. You just kind of invite them to your house. I don't know if interesting is the way you describe it, but just kind of interesting people, prominent people. Can you just talk about what that is and what you think of it and what I have the benefits of doing something like that? I think interesting is the right way to think about it. I started this when I was in Ottawa with a bunch of founders there.

And it's become one of my favorite things to do. Honestly, it's like the bright spot in my month that I call, call them guilds. So the word the guild is builders. And that's how it originally started. So Guild Knight is what I call it. And the idea is basically, you know, all interesting people doing interesting things actually want to spend time with each other. That's why I'm actually surprised more people don't do this. But I'll basically have interesting people come, usually five or six. And we'll sit around talking about specific topics. So I do one for consumer product. I do one for SEO. I do one for growth, growth leaders, and just have really smart, interesting people come

and we'll talk about different topics that are relevant. Sometimes we'll pick a topic, so we'll have a group, and then we'll say, hey, we want to talk about AI. So one of the advantages of being in the barrier is you can find three or four people that likely wrote some of the core code in Google or an AI, and then they'll join. And people want to meet. People want to get together and have these conversations. So it's very exhilarating. I learn a ton. It's, It's a lot of fun. I don't know why more people don't do it. And it's a bit of work to organize,

but it's also just tactically been a great way to meet fascinating people. It's helped a lot for recruiting, for if you need a back channel. Now you know, all these people that are in different industries. But, you know, business aside, they're very valuable business-wise, but they're just a lot of fun and they become some of my favorite things that I do. And I'm really surprised why more people don't do it. Because I think especially now that everybody's remote, and we're working from home or most people are,

it's more valued than ever. So it's something I'm looking forward to continuing and always actually through my morning reflection thinking about what are new ones I can spin up, who are interesting people that we want to break bread with. And I do think it's important that it's done at your house. If anybody's thinking of starting this, you can do it at a restaurant,

but there's something about being in your home or being in somebody's home, five or six people having a great conversation about a topic that's mutually interesting. And I think everybody values it. and it adds a lot of spice to life. I think it's really important. Any other tactical tips for making one of these happen?

So due to your home, you cater, do you, how many people, how long, anything else you want to share there? Yeah, so I think the most I've done is 10. That's a bit too much. Six seems to be perfect. Six to eight at the max. I do get a catered so you don't have to worry about cooking the topic, something like a topic that is common so that everybody can rally around. I do think it's important, like I mentioned, doing it at home. Usually we start around six, go till nine or ten.

And it's just been a really good thing that I've learned over time is a really good thing to do to just make for a better life, frankly, marriage your life with some great friends. And we say cater, it's just like ordering in basically, right? It's nothing. Yeah, you store to ask some food. So you don't have to worry about cooking. And I'm sure there's other things.

I've never really deeply thought about it. but in terms of like what are the specific things I've evolved it over, over time. But I don't cook anyway. So it would be terrible if I cooked. So this is much easier to do it this way. And as long as you're inviting kind of interesting people, everybody's going to want to come and spend some time and break some bread. Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got six questions for you.

Are you ready? I think so. I think you are. Well, question one. What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people? So there's one that I've already mentioned, which is Spark. It's the neuroscience of exercise. That was, this is a great book.

And it's not one of these like exercise to stay fit. If they live longer, this is really about, frankly, if you exercise and do it in a specific way to have a kind of blueprint they lay out, it's good for just cognition and kind of horsepower and performance. So that's been a really important one. It has been a big part of me building on my morning routine. The second one is when I picked up. up about, I think about a year ago or six months, and I recommended it to you, I don't know,

at least to a couple hundred people now because I recommend it to my team. It's called smart brevity. Have you heard of this one? No, but I love the sound of it. I've always been big on, you know, writing crisply and being very tight and not having like three page memos that you're sending off, especially now that we're remote and we're all doing Slack and email and different ways of messaging how tightly you communicate, how crisp your communication is, is really important for frankly, you getting your point across and also for the other person who's probably digesting 100 of these messages. So this book is, it's a book on how to do that. It breaks down how to write crisply and the different parts of it. And I've definitely seen improvements in the team

since I've passed around. So that's a great book, if, frankly, for anybody, work or personal because we're writing so much and communication is so key. So that's the second one. The third one is a golden oldie. It's one that I've read out many, many times. And I recommend from a growth perspective, this one you've likely heard of as influence by Caldini. I got it back in my bookshelf there. Yeah, it's a great, great book. And it's because it's really the underpinning of so many different product and growth principles that you can apply. So that's just a classic that is good to reread at least once a year. So that's those in three books. I'm going to extend this a little bit. I'm going to add two books that are building on your two books, or the first

two books, I guess. One is Peter Artia just wrote a book called Outlive. I've got it right. Okay. And it's exactly the same kind of premise of just how important exercises. And there's a whole, I think there's a quote in there of just like, the only thing proven to help you live longer is exercise. And then Smart Brevity, there's another book that I'd recommend if people want more on this topic called Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit. And it's by the guy that wrote The War of Art and Backer Vance. and I forget his name off the top of my head, but it's like, nobody wants to read your shit. Here's what you need to do for people to want to read anything you're writing.

Yeah, you want to scan. You want to read. Yeah, that's great one. I'll pick that one up. Nobody wants to read your shit. Exactly. What a title. That's a great title.

All right, back on track. What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed? You know, I don't watch TV much, and I haven't really watched seeing movies in a while, but I do watch a lot of podcasts on YouTube. and Andrew Huberman's got, of course, a great series. I watch, I think, everyone who puts out. So I don't know if that counts, but that's...

Absolutely. Okay, so I watch that. And then, of course, the All-Len podcast is always fun, so I make sure to watch those when they come out as well. A lot of fun and informative. So those are my two, I would say. Great picks. What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask?

Teach me something about growth that I don't already know. Because, and you could apply this to engineering, product, any other area, because it really gives you a sense of what this person thinks is the top of the stack in terms of the smartest thing they know, whether you know it or not is irrelevant. But sometimes you actually do end up learning some stuff, but it's my favorite question because you can really engage in a conversation around. Okay, this is the thing you think is so unique that maybe you've come up with this learning yourself or if you've created this tactic and then it gives you a sense of how much they

know the craft. So that's my favorite question. What is the favorite product that you've recently discovered that you just really love? I've got a cold plunge that I bought that I love. It's the, something's called the Renew Cold Plunge. It's cold, but super convenient, and I do that every morning, and I just love it. Any advice for cold plunging? That sounds very painful and hard.

You know, I usually start going to a hot tub, warm up, then I go in the cold plums and back in the hot tub. That's an easy way to get started. But I will say, I jumped in yesterday and today without going to hot tub. very painful, but I felt so much better after. So I might be changing up my approach, but I'm just kind of experimenting with different things. But that would be some advice. And then just go slow. Start it, you know, not too cold and then slowly make it cold over time. But it's a pretty good, I think it's a pretty good thing that and so far. How long do you spend in the cold plunge? Berries right now, I'm doing five minutes. Five minutes at, I think it's

53 degrees. So it's just, I've started at, uh, six, uh, six. is slowly bringing it down. But you do have to go slow because I brought it down even further and kind of caught me off guard and kind of a little dizzy. So you've got to find your sweet spot. Damn. Very Huberman inspired. I imagine this.

Definitely it was part of the source there. I know people hear a lot about coal plunges. I guess what have you seen as a benefit just while we're in this topic for people to like seriously consider doing this? A couple things. Mood afterwards is so much better. You get this great multi-hour boost. from doing it, especially like I mentioned, not doing warm before or waiting 10 minutes and waiting

10 minutes after, before you warm up, after you get out, great mood boost. It also helps a lot with sleep. So if you do it at night, which is a little bit difficult, it helps a lot with sleep. Those are probably the two biggest things. And you do get to a point I'm there now where I kind of look forward to it because you know how good you'll feel afterwards. So when I'm thinking about it, I know it's painful. It doesn't make it easier. But I do look forward to it now. It's a pretty cool thing. Oh, man. Got to get one now.

Yeah. Okay, two more questions. What's something relatively minor that you've changed in your product development process that has had a big impact on your team's ability to execute? One change that comes to mind is, you know, it's common to hear discussion around you need to experiment, you need to have rigor, you need to look at results, iterate based on those results. That's pretty much common knowledge is how all.

you know, all good companies that execute growth do it. See, the subtlety is that experiments are great, but they're also, they can be slow. You have to look at the results. You have to analyze how things went. You have to learn what's going on. You have to build the experiment. So there's a cost to an experiment, and not everything needs to be experimented. And that's not something that I generally hear both teams talk about.

It's usually, hey, we need to experiment. So one thing that we're definitely focused more on lately is this idea of, sometimes you just need to yolo it because it's a better product experience or you just kind of know it's going to work. And, you know, if you're yolowing 40 things and three of them work, and you can look at prepose or you can look at holdouts, there's ways of making sure you don't cause major damage. But the speed can outweigh the cost and time it takes to do experiments.

So that's one change we've recently implemented. That's been pretty impactful. Final question. So we met actually a long time ago in Montreal, or maybe it was in Ottawa, in Canada somewhere. And I think it was through an organization called C-100 when I was starting my company back in the day. And so my question is, what is your favorite Canadian food? You know, it's funny. My favorite Canadian food is I'm from Ottawa.

And there's a lot of shwarma, Lebanese shwana everywhere. I know it's not traditionally Canadian, but Canada is so multicultural, so I'll make this count. I love a good shwoma, and it's so hard to find a good shwoma in the Bay Area. So we've still been looking here, but my favorite Canadian food, or pseudo-Canadian, is shwama. If I had to pick one purely Canadian food, and this is related to Montreal where we first met, it's got to be a Montreal-smobile meat sandwich. Excellent choices. You're making me very hungry.

I'm going to go get some shorma, buy me a coal plunge. Luke, this was amazing. We talked through everything I was hoping to talk through advisorships, SEO. hiring, building habits, cold trenches. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more? And how can listeners be useful to you? You can find me online at Luke Lavec.com.

So first name, last name.com. And how can they be useful to me? Listen, we're always looking to hire the best of the best. So if you want to work at an amazing company with an amazing team doing very impactful work and learn the craft of growth, please reach out. We're always looking to bring on amazing talent. that would be the one one. Awesome. Luke, thank you again so much for being here. Thanks. Great to chat. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to

the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's Podcast.com. See you in the next episode.