Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - Sanchan Saxena (VP of Product at Coinbase) on the inside story of how Airbnb made it through Covid; what he’s learned from Brian Chesky, Brian Armstrong, and Kevin Systrom; much more

Episode Date: July 5, 2022

Sanchan Saxena is VP of Product at Coinbase. Before Coinbase, Sanchan was Head of Product and GM at Airbnb, founder and Head of Product of Instagram Shopping, Director of Product Management at Yahoo, and Lead PM at Microsoft.—Thank you to our sponsors for making this episode possible:• Dovetail: https://dovetailapp.com/lenny• Persona: https://withpersona.com/lenny• Productboard: https://www.productboard.com/—In this episode, you’ll learn:[3:50] How Sanchan worked his way up to VP of Product at Coinbase[6:15] Sanchan’s best advice to early-stage PMs[9:41] What to look for in a company to join[12:09] What Sanchan learned from Airbnb[16:40] Behind the scenes of how Airbnb survived the Covid downturn when travel completely stopped[21:49] How Airbnb tactically planned in two-week cycles[25:00] How to keep morale up during a disaster[29:00] What Sanchan learned from Brian Chesky, Brian Armstrong, and Kevin Systrom[36:08] How to know when to trust your gut vs. A/B testing[41:57] How Coinbase makes decisions[46:30] How teams use the RAPID decision-making process[47:00] How to operate in an ambiguous industry like web3[49:00] How to know if you should get into web3[51:46] How to hire and close amazing candidates[54:40] What to look for in product leaders[57:13] Lightning round—Where to find Sanchan:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanchans/• Twitter: https://twitter.com/sanchans This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten to work with Sanchin while I was at Airbnb. He joined Airbnb as a director of product and quickly moved up the ranks to head of product for all of Airbnb. Before Airbnb, he spent almost four years at Instagram as head of product for Instagram ads, and then he created and led the Instagram shopping product and team. Before that, he was director of product at Yahoo and a PM at Microsoft, and today he's the VP of product at Coinbase. I don't think I've worked with a harder working PM, particularly someone who's a company who's incredibly kind and nice and generous.

In my conversation with Sondchen, we cover what he's learned from working with some of today's best CEOs, including Brian Chesky, Ryan Armstrong, Zuck and Kevin Sistram, what it was like inside Airbnb when COVID hit and how they made it through travel completely stopping, how to set up your product development process at a startup, tips for hiring amazing product managers,

when to hire your first PM, when to A-B test and when not to, and so much more. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. So many product managers are basically treated like project managers. You get hired thinking that you'll be deep in product strategy and vision and getting to know your customers only to wind up organizing other people's work and refining backlogs and optimizing tiny, tiny features.

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use Dufftail to get a better understanding of their customers and build better products. Try Dovetail's products free for as long as you need. You can sign up right now and dive right in at Dovetailapp.com slash Lenny. This episode is brought to you by Persona. Persona helps founders, product managers, and engineers easily solve any identity-related problem, including handling KYC, AML, and basically all manner of identity fraud. You can integrate Persona in an afternoon and personalize your flows using their SDK, to meet your users on any device.

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Just go to with persona.com slash lenny to get started. Sanchin, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Lenny, for inviting me. Excited to be here and chat with you today. Absolutely, my pleasure. So I was really lucky to work with you at Airbnb for many years, where you were a beloved product leader. And then you went on to do bigger and better things now at Coinbase.

And I love to just hear how you first got into product and then just a little bit of your journey of how you got to where you are today where you basically had a product at Coinbase. Yeah, happy to your answer. Maybe I'll go back in time and start from my first job. So I was in my third year of engineering where the entrepreneurial bug caught me, so to say, you know, bit me. And I took a little bit of sabbatical from my engineering, which, by the way, was in aerospace engineering. I wanted to be an astronaut, go to space. You know, unfortunately, back then, there wasn't an Elon Musk for space. If you wanted to go to space, you got to work for a government agency, which I didn't like.

So fast forward that to by 30 year of engineering. And I started my company, raised a bunch of money, hired some people, didn't go as plan. So I shut shops, came back and finished my engineering and got a job at Microsoft, which made my mom very happy. My son finally has a stable job. You know, what the heck he was doing running some companies. But jokes aside, I got a job at Microsoft, which was a great starting position. I started in engineering.

But within a year or so, I moved into product. and I moved to the Silicon Valley office of Microsoft. I never worked in Seattle, but always worked in Silicon Valley in Mountain View. And I worked for this product called Hotmail. I don't know many people know this or not, but there's an email service called Hotmail. You know, that was one of the product people. Absolutely. It's scary that people may not even know what Hotmail is at this point.

Right? It's kind of crazy. So back in the day, it was pretty cool. So I worked there and then since then I've been in Silicon Valley. So moved into product back in, I think, 2005 or six, something like that. And since that, they've been very lucky and fortunate to have stumbled upon incredible opportunities all the way from Facebook and Instagram to Airbnb and Coinbase. And fun fact, when I joined Instagram was still very small. And it was less than, I think, 50 engineers or something like that, very tiny.

It was pre-revenue. We made $0 in revenue. I still remember the day when Zuck told Kevin Sister, we got to go make revenues. And we made $0 back there. And was there until 2017. By the time, it was like a billion monthly active users, multiple billion dollars in revenue. was my first hyper-growth experience as a product leader. And then in 2017, I joined Airbnb, which is where you and I worked together.

There, I had a dual role. I was a GM of Airbnb Plus, but also the head of product helping Brian Chesky, scale the product management organization, establish the culture of it, and see how best we can build a world-class product organization. And then after that I took some time off about six months, you know, introspective to see what I want to do next? And that is when I went into the Web3 rabbit home. And that's where I learned more and more about Web3, what's happening,

over there. I've always been investor in crypto since 2014, but never thought of it as a builder. I was like, I don't know if I want to build in there. It seems cool. I can participate it from the outside. But then the more I read, the more I realized, man, this is one of the biggest revolutions happening. And that's when I joined Coinbase. And here, I'm the VP of product for ecosystems and a bunch of other stuff that I do here and excited to be able to play a small role in this next revolution called Web3. Amazing. Just listening to that trajectory and places that you work, I imagine people are wondering like, man, how do I follow a trajectory like that? How do I live a life like Sanchez? Do you have any advice for someone that's maybe just starting out that may be wondering? Like, how do I follow this sort of path? How do I work at all these incredible companies and get to maybe where you are now? Yeah, I look back at my career. One thing that is very true is that I never had that plan. You know, I stumbled upon a lot of things. I mean, I wanted to be an aerospace engineer. It didn't work up. Pivoted it. I started my own company. Didn't work out. Pivoted. You know, I came to Silicon Valley.

worked at hop mill, didn't work out, pivot. Things start to materialize when you actually take steps to do something. So my biggest advice to people is, you know, oftentimes the analysis paralysis of dotting every eye, crossing every T, sometimes chokes you out of opportunities, you know, when you find something that gives you energy, just jump in with both feet. And, you know, try to go through that process and pivot and pivot and learn and pivot. That's how you would create a great career as opposed to sort of a five-year career plan and working backwards from there, those things just don't work.

The other thing I'll say is I read this book early on in my life called The Little Betts. It actually was a reflection of whatever I did in my life. Before that, I thought I was a weirdo. I don't know what I'm doing. And then I read that book and I realized, oh, my God, there's some method to my madness. You know, it's called Little Betts. You take Little Betts. You try them out.

If they don't work out, you build rapid recovery and start to do something else. And that is the meta story connecting all the dots in my life, in all the career opportunities that I've had. That's one piece of big advice I'll tell everybody. The second thing I'll say is product management is a very interesting discipline. You don't go to school for that. You don't get a degree for that. And most people that I know in product have stumbled upon product management.

They were doing something else and like, oh, my God, this seems cool. I want to do this, you know? So the advice I give early stage people is you got to learn the art and the science of product management early on in your career. It's an art piece to it and then there's a science piece to it. And you've got to be able to manage both of those things in your head. If you become too scientific, you miss out on opportunities because you can see those opportunities

using the scientific method of discovery because they're too tiny or they're so far-fetched that people cannot even understand them. And the art piece is really important for you to be able to sniff those out by being in the community, hanging out with people who are actually builders and learning where the next trends would be. So my advice to people is, go get a job,

which will make you the fastest learner in the field of product management. That is what will help you a lot. course, no degree, none of those things will help. The most important thing will be how quickly can you jump in, learn the out of product management. Some people prefer doing that at a startup. Some people prefer that doing it an established Fang company, which has processes and systems as well. It's your choice. But the fastest you learn that, the better it'll get for you. Well, I love so much about that advice. To go a little bit further on this last point, when people

are looking for a company to go join to learn and to accelerate their career the way you're describing what do you think they should be looking for? And I know you said maybe a startup. Do you think they should join a startup? Do you think they should join a bigger company? What kind of things should you look for to find the best place to learn? Yeah, I think there is no right recipe for one, but it matters to the individual. I'll share both stories with you. The way to think about this is, let's say you want to get to a destination, whichever destination it is. You probably want to get on the fastest ship. You don't want to get on a slow ship. That's one metaphor to use in your mind. And then when you got to the ship, you know, you're on

the ship will get there. But remember, you're not going to get to your destination faster than the ship will. So you've got to understand what your destination is then optimize the learnings from there. So at a startup, you're going to learn a lot of things. There are three types of learning. A starter learning, meaning you can get started. You're a person who can get started. You see an idea, you see an opportunity, you can get started. That is something that a startup will teach you a lot. And you see something. Do you want to get started to do something about it? Great. You'll learn a lot over there. And there's zero to one people, you know, who can then take what they've started and scale it to one. And then there are one and beyond, people who are scalers, who will scale the system that is on product market fit.

And I think depending on your journey, depending on your career, depending upon where you are, you might want to optimize for different types of learnings as well. So what I advise people is there's a great way to go to Google, Facebook, Amazon, and learn the scale mechanisms that these companies have built. You know, and I look at Amazon and I get inspired by that company because what they have figured out is how to scale innovation with one in employees. It's a pretty different learning, you know, and you can't probably potentially find that at a start. Similarly, the ability to just get started, you know, the ability to see an idea, start hacking at it, start building it without the encumbrances of the processes and the system

that these big organizations have. You can probably learn that in a big company as well. So you've got to figure out, what are you optimizing for, what goes well with you? I've seen many successful leaders who will get choked up in a big company environment. And I've seen many big company successful executives who want to choke up in a very startup environment, you know, and this is not for everybody. Both sides of the games are not for everybody. So first and foremost, recognizing what gives you energy, recognizing where you thrive the most, you know, is really important. Like, for example, I am not the guy who can optimize a 100,000 employee company. I will never enjoy that kind of learning, you know, I've done to some extent a large company thing, but I thrive

in that starter to scalar angle. But when it becomes too large, you know, I start to lose interest in that kind of learning. Some people enjoy different things, right? So you got to understand what it is and be able to optimize there. Where would you say you learned the most of all the companies that worked at that helped accelerate your career most? I think I would rank Airbnb probably the place where I learned the most. And I'll share with you and your audience why I feel that way. So I joined Airbnb back in 2017, making decent revenue, had good product market fit. You know, I remember when I got there, the entire product management order was like 30 people or 40 people, something like that. You had three director as a product, very small still, you know, for a company that was generating billion plus dollars in

revenue. And then the context was there was this ambitious founder, Brian, you know, who will never take no for an answer, you know, and he would bend reality in many regards to make shit happen. And you are very familiar with those days as well, where you will have a project. You will leave the review thinking, shit, this is actually possible. The guy just inspired you that this is actually possible. And you went in thinking it's not possible. So what I found is that at Airbnb, I learned a bunch of different things. One, I learned how to build products where software is just one part of the product. So let me explain that a little bit. The product of Airbnb isn't the app.

It is a means to an end. The product of Airbnb is the memories you're going to create when you sit in that Airbnb beautiful house with your family, with your friends, and you're building those memories. That's the product. It's in real world. And how you build a real world product, which is, of course, powered by software like the app, the website, etc.,

is different than you. just building a pure product that is purely software. So I learned what is operations, how to scale operations, how to work with operations, how to create beautiful physical homes over there. The second thing I learned is just how to build great products. I got, I think, a master class from Chesky in how to build products by watching him act, behave, and make decisions as well. And we'll talk about it later today. But I learned some of my fundamental product principles from him and working with him and the team that he had assembled, you know, the design leaders, the engineering leaders, et cetera.

Like, I learned a lot over there. And last one in the least, it was still a hypergrowth thing. You know, we were going through crazy growth. And then I learned what happens in leadership when coronavirus happens. The company starts to tank. You know, it was a lesson in crisis management. I tell my friends, I could not have gone to HBS, Stanford Business School, to learn crisis management as much as I learned while being in the front row seat,

you know, managing through that. So my learning as a product leader, from Ryan as a hyper-scaler, taking the product management organization from 30, 40 people to 200 people, you know, and last but not the least, managing the crisis. Like, I felt like it all compressed into three years, something that you will learn in 30. I imagine you had no sense of that sort of path or trajectory or learning when you joined Airbnb. It was like, hmm, this is going to be a great company and a little lucky things. Yeah, absolutely.

And oftentimes, you know, it's a joke, but I'll say it out. Anyhow, and oftentimes, the meat leaders who are leaving Facebook, Amazon, Google and it's like, hey, you know, here's my Excel spreadsheet. You know, here's how imagine the startup that I'm joining will grow. Here's the valuation. Here's my life. Here's my compensation. So I said, none of that shit is going to happen. Companies have a different trajectory and you can't predict those things. So yeah, you're right. When I joined Airbnb, I thought it's going to be a walk in the park just like Instagram was, you know. I mean, Instagram wasn't a walk in the park, but like, relatively speaking, Instagram never experienced

this kind of rapid pivoting of the reality. I'll share with you, I was there when Instagram had like less than 100 million monthly active users, zero dollars in revenue, 50 engineers, till it had one billion monthly active users, billions of dollars in revenue, and thousands of employees, right? And I don't remember a time

where the reality got bended so badly that we had to pivot. In Airbnb's guy, man, one fine morning in January, Brian and us all talking about going IPO, you know, like taking the company public, six week later, we're figuring out,

damn, how do we make this company survive? You know, the revenues, if I'm not wrong, dropped to less in single digits of last year's revenue, you know, and there is no head of product. There is no CFO. There is no CEO whoever has a business plan to say, hmm, what are you going to do when a revenue drops to single digits of last year's revenue, you know? So I definitely didn't think that is what will happen, but that's what ended up happening. Luckily, everything worked out and I'm happy to share what we did and how we navigated through

that with the audience. But it was some crazy, crazy times, man. I was on the outside of that, having left Airbnb. a couple years prior, and I was like, shit, what am I going to do now? I've been taking time off. There go all my Airbnb shares. I think I can get a job soon. And that's actually what led to the newsletter and starting to charge for the newsletter.

But I'm very thankful for the turnaround that you helped create. I'd actually love to hear a bit more about what it is they did that helped them through that. I'll share with you like the behind the scenes story that we went through. So this is January and Brian had this idea of taking the company public in April, you know, and we're working on the road show deck. We're working through numbers. We're crafting the story, et cetera. Everything's going well.

And then we hear this coronavirus crisis, and all of a sudden, countries are shutting down. Like one after the other. Italy shuts down. Japan shuts down. This country shuts down. And all of a sudden, we can see on a travel map. We have this dashboard where you can see where people are traveling, right?

And you can see travel goes down to zero in this country, on a map. This goes down to zero in this country. And they're like, holy shit, what's happening over here? So I remember on all hands where Brian stood up and said, look, we build this company for a crisis like this. We build this company. We have $2 billion in bank. I think something like that.

Some ridiculous number. We have not used a single amount of money from a last raise because we were profitable or growing really profitable. And we're going to survive this. Six weeks later, he's in the same small hands and telling people, this is a different world we're living in. So we had to lay off $1,900 all employees, just $190 of those were in my organization. We had to raise $2 billion in debt.

And the valuation dropped to 50% of what the valuation was. It was one of the craziest times. And, you know, Lenny, when you go through that, the loss of challenges you face. One is fine, you can cut costs by laying off employees for a little bit and create a little bit more runway. But remember, this is current a matter's time. I had to let go of people over Zoom. I couldn't even meet them in person. You know, I still remember when I actually finished my speech and I told them, this is the last day.

Now, I literally shed a tear, you know, in front of everybody because I was like, man, this is hard. This is really, really hard. And the company let go of 1,900 people. I just had to let go of $190 in my organization, but it was still very painful. You know, because remember, it is no fault of these employees, you know, they just happen to be at the wrong side of the tornado that's hitting the world.

The second, equally most important thing was the people who stayed back, how do you motivate them, right? One is you can let go with people, but people who stayed back, they need a light of hope that something is going to turn around. But how do you plan? When data is changing every single day, you know, and every day we will wake up, a new country will go down and say, nope, no more travels into our market, right? And we start predicting that our revenue will be seven, ten, some ridiculous, very small percent of last years.

So there's panic, right? And this is where I would say, Brian Chesky is an incredible leader. He's the Rocky Balboa of Silicon Valley. You can punch him, he'll go down, he'll stand up, he'll fight again, you know? That's the analogy, you know. He's truly the Rocky Balboa where he took so many punches, but he stood up again. and say one more round, you know, and that's how the company survived. So from an operating principle, we went into two-week planning mode.

You know, Greg Greeley, who was the president of Airbnb, used to say, look, can't plan for a year, can plan for a quarter, we're going to plan every two weeks. We're going to react to every two weeks. And I think this is the lesson that I've tried to share with a lot of product people as well and founders as well, is that things are going to go all right. Things are not going to go as you plan. So the real genius isn't to dot every eye to cross every team before you get started. The real genius is what do you do when shit goes wrong?

And I believe rapid recovery is the key to success. What you do, how quickly you can recover from failure becomes really important. So our operating model change, we went to two weeks shipping. All right, what are we doing for the next two weeks? What is the most urgent thing for the company? For the company, not my team, not your team, not somebody else's team. And we pivoted the entire machinery down over there. And then slowly and slowly after two or three months, we got to a place where we got a semblance of what is happening.

I want to tell you one story. You know, hotels and Airbnb are competitors, right? And when this thing happened, we had a debate. How are we going to position Airbnb against hotels, right? And actually, we had to figure out what are the advantages people staying in an Airbnb? And luckily for us, being in an Airbnb where the air you breathe is only you and your family turn out to be a huge secret sauce to compete. You know, when you're in a hotel, there's a lobby. You get to be with other people.

But when you're in an Airbnb, you're safe. So we pivoted our marketing as well and messaging as well. So the entire company came together to become one, you know. And through this, I would say Ryan's leadership was just phenomenal. Everything I learned about crisis management, leading with calmness, you know. There's a very good saying in boxing. I love sports. It's a very good saying, which is, you know, you can have all the plan.

The moment you step inside the boxing ring and you get a punch on your face, all your plans go out of the window, right? And you got to stay calm when you get a punch on your face. and that is what I learned from Brian, how to stay calm, how to stay composed. While at the same time, deep down, you know you owe a lot to these employees. You know you owe a lot to these employees to have clarity and for them to stick around with you and believe in you that the company can turn around. So it was an amazing journey, you know, but pretty painful. Wow.

I haven't heard that level of detail about what went on inside. And so thank you for sharing all that. Very tactically, I'm curious, the two-week planning cycles, how did that actually happen? And was there like a large meeting every two weeks with the leaders? And they just kind of discuss here as we're thinking for the next two weeks. Yeah, I think so one of the things about Airbnb, and we'll talk about it later as well. But it's a very founder-driven company. While there are leaders over there, the founder is deeply in the trenches.

You know, he really understands the customer. He's not this executive who's so far removed from reality that they can't actually create the content. So Brian was living, breathing that exercise, our execual reading that thing. So what we'll do is we'll have a bunch of things top down. Again, this is what we need to do, guys. You know, we need to cut this feature. We need to cut this product line. We need to cut this business unit.

You know, I literally had to shut down one full business unit because we had to cut the bleeding, so to say, and let go off those many people. So there was a top-down mandate, but also there's a bottom-up. You know, the engineers, the product managers, the designers are front-line. You know, they are in connection with the CX team

who's hearing what customers are complaining about, you know? And so there was a mixture of top-down guidance to a bottoms-up things that we're seeing on the field. And every two weeks or so, the leadership, Greg, in that case, for example, would make a decision on, here are the things we're going to go handle. And there were no teams anymore. We basically dissolved this idea that there are subteams.

There was one team. Hashtag Airbnb. It didn't matter whether you worked in CX or Airbnb Plus or Lux or any of those things. We're going to move engineers wherever we have to. We're going to move PMs wherever we need to. And there's no such thing as subteam anymore. So a lot of engineers on my team would go on to do marketplace dynamic stuff, like pricing and all that stuff.

While some of those engineers would then go on to build CX tools or something else, that was needed for survival. So I felt like a 4,000 people company was operating as a 4 people company or a 40 people company, you know, which is one team, no subteams, everybody rowing in the same direction. And that was really important because remember, employees were at your company and looking for clarity. What should they work on? Is the thing that they're going to work on meaningful, right?

Because nobody knows, right? And when people will ask you as a leader, like many people, asked me, so what does six months look like? What does a year look like? Where have you from a year from now? The most honest answer you can tell them is, I don't know. Because if you cook shit up, they're going to see through that lie. You know, they're going to be like, ah, this is just all marketing fluff, you know. So we would be very honest as leaders, will be very vulnerable as leaders, saying this is truly once in a lifetime thing. We don't know how we're going to navigate. But here's what we believe to be true. So we had to get people from feature obsession, revenue

obsession, to belief obsession. What is the? belief obsession? Well, we all believe that when coronavirus is over, people will want to travel. We all believe that coronavirus will be over, right? So you start going into first principles belief-based thinking, and you will bring stories that will make people believe that the future that we are working toward is actually possible. For example, there was a survey we did, we said, and if money was in a consideration, what would you do for the rest of your life? 99.99% of the people said, I will travel the world. Travel is in human genes, you know. So we had to pivot to actually making people believe why travel will be back,

why Airbnb will survive, and why Airbnb will eventually try if the coronavirus crisis is over. These stories are incredible. I was going to ask around the morale piece. You mentioned keeping morale up, and it sounds like a big piece of that was pulling people back to the mission and the vision of Airbnb and re-inspiring them and helping them feel like this will work out.

Is that what you found to be most effective to keep morale up, or is there anything else that also helped keep morale up in this very tenuous time? I think in these tenuous times, you will notice that you can't pay these employees better than market. So when this happened, fan companies were at our door trying to poach our engineers overnight. Every engineer was pinged by Facebook, Google saying, hey, we heard Airbnb is going down. You want to come over? We'll pay you X amount of money and that stock is stable, you know?

So you had vultures at the door, so to say, as a proverbial exercise where your top talent is getting pushed, but you can't pay this top talent. the best, right? You can't, right? Because your financial situation doesn't allow you to do that, right? But you still give them something, right, because it's at a lower price and you start to sell the vision that if the company turns around, this will be at a higher price and you will have right compensation. But those are some of the challenges. The second challenge is you will notice that people who thrive in these situations will be the one who truly believe both in the mission, but I think more importantly in the founders to make that mission come to life. Because you and all both know, right?

There are many companies who have the similar mission, want to do something similar, but some succeed and some don't, you know. And the secret source of that, in my opinion, is the founder. And if the employees do not believe in the founder, if the employees do not believe that the founder can make things happen as they talk about, you know, and the founder is not able to connect with the employees, those companies go down in flames, you know. So the second thing I would say is the founder needs to be at the front line,

you know, and Brian Chesky was on the front line. You're literally 24-7 available, interacting, making decisions, holding all hands, writing emails, sending messages, you know, and assuring people that I'm in this with you. By the way, there's a proverbial thing, right? When such situations happen, all execs take a pay cut. Every company does that, right? But then still certain companies survive, certain don't. It's primarily because of the founder. And then the third thing I would say is somehow getting people to believe in the company.

the future that they came here to create. You know, when situations, when drastic situations like these happens, right? And I joined Airbnb, I had a vision of what it can become, right? And the reality snaps. And all of a sudden, like, holy shit, is that even possible, right? So that is the real art I learned from Brian is that the power of storytelling without any data, like, your data is telling you, you're going to die. The data is telling you got 7%, 10% of your revenue, whatever the number was.

I forget now, like single digit number, right? And every day you're seeing the numbers go down, right? And Brian has this incredible ability to help you see a future in a way so crystal clear that when you leave chatting with him, you're like, man, it's possible. We can make it happen. We can do it, you know? So that trait was really, really important that Brian invested in it. And all the three founders, by the way.

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result in higher revenue and user adoption and empower your product teams to create delightful customer experiences. Visit product board.com to learn more. I could talk about Airbnb all day, but I'm also curious of the other places you worked at, Instagram, Microsoft, even Coinbase. What are things you've seen the leaders that those companies do that have stuck with you that you're going to take to other places that are maybe unique. Yeah, I think a lot of amazing things. Like I tell people, like, I learned all things about building great products, building great businesses, building great companies from founders like Kevin's sister and Brian Chesky,

Brian Armstrong and others. Let me go back to Instagram days. I want to paint the picture first of what it was when I got there. The journey we were on. At that time, Instagram was a highly successful app that was growing really fast. But there are many questions. Only photos. You can't share anything outside.

It's only from the camera. You can't share links. At Facebook, they allow you to share links. Why don't you allow that, right? So there's an existential question that comes at those stages, which is, who do you want to be when you grow up? You know, when you start up, that's a big, important question for you to answer. And there were many debates, you know, do we want to be the next Facebook?

Do we want to be the first Instagram? You know, who do we want to be when we grew up, right? And that debate is really, really important. That clarity is really important for your employees. So the thing that I learned from Kevin's sister was the power. of simplicity. That guy can listen to everything, hear everything, hear the noise on Twitter, here, there, you know, all the customers complaining, and then just simplify things that makes sense for the team to operate on, right? So that's his superpower, which is simplicity.

Take all the information, but simplify your strategy, your belief, who you want to be when you grow up in a way that people can then act on it. The other thing I learned from him was intentionality. This is the story of Instagram stories. You know, when Snapchat came about, out. Snapchat was eating Facebook and Instagram's lunch in many regards because the Snapchat stories was crushing it. And there are lots of myths, by the way, in the media, you know, how that happened. It was a mandate from Zad. No, Zat did not have a mandate. There was no such thing, you know. It was something that people were experimenting with. So I want to tell you a story of two stories, which is stories in Facebook app and stories inside of Instagram app and stories for your audience is the stuff

that Snapchat invented, you know, all credit to them. In product management, you always debate, you know, measure twice cut once kind of a thinking. It's like measure the data, get all the data, right? Get all the analysis. Asked customers, et cetera. You know, some of the successful founders don't do that. Some of successful founders go off of gut and instincts more than they go off of data, you know? And that, to me, is the superpower of a founder.

It's like they have this instinct, their vision. So I'll tell you the story. On Instagram side, Kevin's sister made a decision. We're going all in on this new format. There was no way to be testing that if you add stories at the top, I mean, there was a little bit of FAB testing. We're not like, okay, let's go measure. If you add stories at the top, the feed will go down.

As a result, engagement will drop, as a result, revenue will drop, and as a result, we should not do it. You know, there was no such thing. The founder said, we're going all in people. This is the future. We're not going to measure and then cut. We're going to cut. And then we're going to iterate from that new baseline forward.

We're going to continue to iterate on that. On the Facebook side, and by the way, there's a very good article that some PM inside of Facebook road why stories didn't survive at Facebook but tried at Instagram. It's because on that side, There was a mathematical modeling being created, which is what are the tradeoffs, right? And you have a successful business. And this is the innovator's dilemma. You have a successful business called feed that is generating billions of dollars, right?

And you got to bring in this new thing, which has zero advertisers. We don't even know if the engagement will be there or not, right? And you've got to put those things together. So there was a very different approach that Facebook took for stories versus Instagram. And by the way, there was no, this rumor in the media, you know, there was a top-down mandate. No, these teams were just experimenting. We're just trying things out. We always want to look at a competition, be inspired by what's working, what's not.

There's no harm in learning from somebody who's doing something great, right, and experiment and see if that works for you or not. So that was the story. And the thing that I learned from sister was intentionality. As a founder, one of the things you have to recognize, or even as a product leader, you have to recognize that every product that you build should be intentional in nature. And intentionality doesn't come just from AB testing. AB testing, maybe you can do that, right, as a later on, but you can.

got to have intentionality. Where do you want to go? What is the world you want to create for your customers? And then create out AB testing to get you the fastest route to that end state world. So when I talk to product managers, oftentimes I tell them, you know, you're being either too lazy or you're trying to be too risk averse by telling me, here are the assumptions you have that you're going to test. First tell me the intentionality of the product that you want to create.

What do you want to see come true? And then let's talk about the AB test we can run to measure. that we are headed in the right direction. And it's a flippening of the mind. And that was something that Brian also taught me. By the way, it's a joke, but some degree it's reality too. At AB testing at Airbnb is a bad word, you know. You don't go to Brian to Brian and say,

Hey, Brian, here's my Excel spreadsheet. I want to run some 10 AV tests and come back and tell you whether we're heading in the right direction. You're going to get thrown out of the window. You know, it's like, no, we've got to figure out what the product is. So the other thing I learned with Brian Chesky was you first want to create an ideal end state of the product. without any constraint.

So here's a good analogy that Brian will teach people. Let's say you want to build Airbnb. What is the 15 out of 10 experience you want to create? That's where Airbnb designers and PM start, by the way. In most companies, the designers in PM start by saying, okay, 10 is perfect. We can probably do seven.

Let's start at seven. It's a very constrained-minded thinking. I got this much time. I got this many resources. I got this much budget. I can only do so much. And what Brian taught us was think unconstrained first.

Think about a 15 out of 10 experience. Design the ideal end state first. I'll give you a very concrete example of this. Let's see you're building Airbnb lounges. You know, a customer's check-in is at 3 p.m. But they fly to the 6 a.m. What are you going to do? What are you going to build a lounge, right?

So if you're traditionally trained in product management, this is what you will do, which is, look, I don't know how to build this in 120 countries. I don't know how to scale this stuff. So I'm going to ignore some ideas. And I'm going to build a MVP lounge, you know. And then I'm going to say, okay, if I add internet access to it, customer retention went up by Y. If I had coffee to it, this went up by Z. If I add cheers to it, it went up by X.

And hence, I'm going to justify how to build a beautiful mall. That's not what you will do if you're Brian Cheskey. Here's what you look. You will pick one location because you don't know how to scale a lounge in 120 countries, right? Pick one location. But you know how to get in one location a barista who can create coffee. You know in one location, how to get the best seats. You know in one location how to get the best air conditioning.

You know that, right? Build the best possible, lovable product first. And then from that point on, understand what worked, what did not? And then scale the pieces that actually worked. It's a very different way of thinking about things, doing things that don't scale it first. So those are different things I learned on Instagram and Airbnb. So much good stuff there that we could do a podcast at each learning. And that point about working backwards from the ideal is something I've absolutely taken away also from Airbnb and use often.

If folks want to learn a bit more about that, if you Google Snow White, Airbnb, there's a whole story about Snow White that kind of touches on where a lot of this idea came from. I want to follow up on one point you made about intentionality. So this is your founder or PM and you're just like, oh, yeah, okay. So I'm just going to figure out a vision and this is where we need to go. And I need to be intentional. So I'm just going to tell people here's where we're going. Oftentimes you're wrong. Do you have any thoughts for someone trying to decide, like, how do I know if I'm going in the right direction?

and how do I know if I should trust this gut that I have versus running A-B test? Because otherwise, we don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Absolutely. I think there are lots of things to unpack there. So the first and foremost thing I'd say is that, you know, when you sit in your car, you tell your GPS, here's what I want to go.

You never go into your car and say, hey, GPS, tell me where I should go. At least I haven't done that, you know? And then you use the GPS to run an A-B test, say, look, I want to get there in the fastest way possible. GPS then figures out the path to get there in the fastest way. Or sometimes tell the GPS, like, I'm low on gas. You know, take me a gas efficient route that I can get there. Or in a road's outside. Those are a B test, but you never say to the GPS that I don't want to go to San Francisco. Tell me where I should go. It's a similar concept around intentionality. You know, so you got to start first and foremost with where do you want to go? What is the true

customer problem that you want to solve, right? And why does that matter? The second thing I'll say is oftentimes product leaders discount gut or intuition a lot. And the reason is it's a safe thing to do, right? You can always point to data and say, look, I did this because of this. And if I fail, here's the data, you know, and don't fire me. I'm just joking, but like you get the extreme of it. It's very hard to build a team and build your reputation and gut and intuition. But the thing is, founders do exactly that.

You know, there was no document that said 10 years later, Facebook will make billions of dollars in revenue. or no document that said, Coinbase, one day will become a $100 billion company if you invest in that at that point in time. You've got to have gut and intuition. And founders have that, and operators need to learn how to harness that as well. And to me, gut and intuition is data. It's just not statistically significant yet.

That's all it is. You have built that intuition that gut because you immersed yourself in a situation. You hung out with customers. You understood what was happening. You just can't prove it that it is statistically significant yet. So don't discount your gut. That's the second point. The third point that I'll say is once you've figured out what that experience looks like,

yes, you've got to validate what's happening. You've got to get feedback back from the community while launching it. And then you've got to constantly iterate. So my advice to people is don't do that testing up front. You know, start with some assumptions, start with a bunch of intuition, et cetera. Create that. And then have the appetite to actually persist through that. That's another thing I learned from Brian is that, you know, oftentimes these ideas,

these crazy ideas, you need persistence. He used to say, you got to have impatience with getting started, but patience for seeing them through. Right. Because in many of the companies, you know, you can actually kill a brilliant idea early on because you just didn't have the patience to see that through. So you've got to start with intentionality. And then you've got to iterate and test and iterate and test and iterate and test, but

don't give up too early either. And last but not the least, I'll sell a secret to all your audience. Oh boy. Here we go. Nobody knows everything. Right. So the idea is that you can look at as much data as you want, which is still not going to, like, feel that you know all the answers. So what is really important? The really important thing is rapid recovery. Build a culture in your team where failure of those experiments is actually celebrated. Build a culture in the team where actually people get energized when they fail. Because guess what? Each failure was a learning that will avoid a mistake for them in the future. Right. And I think that is the mindset and culture you want to build. Look at data. Look at all the things. You know, at the same time, don't just look at that and say, look, because the data said so, that is what I'm going to do. I'm going to use a very good analogy over here.

And this story has been butchered many times, but I was right there when this happened. So my version is at least 80% accurate. There might be other versions as well. But this is Instagram stories. And you are Kevin's sister. And data science comes to you and say, look, I looked at data and 99% of all photos on people's phones are actually at least a week old. So please allow Instagram stories to let people select a photo that is at least a week or too old. Then user research comes back and says, you know, we talk to a bunch of people.

They said, yes, I would love to share a story of my birthday about a month ago. And Kevin Sistram says, no, my intentionality is that stories should be real-time news. It should be the world's largest TV channel. You open that up and you see what's happening right now. That is the intentionality I'm going towards. So in the beginning, Instagram stories did not let you pick anything that was not real time. You couldn't go back in your camera and pick something a month ago or two ago, because the intentionality of the product was to create the world's largest real-time network

of what's happening in the world right now. If that's the intentionality, you've got to ignore the other customer needs that I want to share with the world what I did a month ago. Right. And that changes the dynamics. Essentially, intentionality is setting a vision for where you want to go, where the product's going, and then working away towards it. That makes a lot of sense.

On the example of Instagram, it's interesting because he eventually changed his mind because I know that you can upload old photos to stories. That was actually after he left, but yes, you're right. Okay. A different intentionality appeared. And look, it's also nothing wrong with changing your mind afterwards, right? Once you push the envelope and then you learn something new and you can't. And that's another beauty of founders is that they're very intentional people, very strong

opinionated people. But in the face of something new, they're also the fastest to change. You know, they don't have remorsefulness, they don't have regrets. And like, yep, all right, let's pivot, you know. And that is a culture you want to build as well as an operator. I love to spend a little time on Coinbase and the product culture there. How AB test driven is it at Coinbase? How do folks think about intentionally vision?

And also just what's the product development process like? I'm always curious how products is developed at different companies. I think all different companies that I've worked at have very different product development cultures. So at Airbnb, for example, design and experience was super, paramount, you know, and you will not compromise over there. You won't cut design to ship. You know, and other companies who would cut design to ship sometimes, you know, because you want to find something quickly. At Coinbase, it's slightly different as well. Every company has their nuances. So Coinbase is in an industry, which is rapidly growing, you know, it's Web 3. I mean, I have not come

across a Web 3 expert yet. There is nobody who's an expert in Web 3, you know? It seems to be on Twitter. Yeah, there are lots of people who think they're expert on Twitter. But the reality is, man, the industry is so nascent, so early, you know, you have good intentions and intuition about where it could go, but it's very hard to be right all the time. So the culture of Coinbase is to take big, bold bets, get started with very tiny teams. The Coinbase NFT marketplace that we just launched, it started with five people, one product manager, one designer, and other three engineers. That's how small it started. And of course it has grown big now as we find product market fit, et cetera, et cetera. But that's the idea is take big, bold swings,

but with tiny teams that can move at lightning speed and make shit happen, you know, because that's one aspect of it. The other culture that I love about Coinbase is this idea of how we make decisions. So Emily, RCO, posted a blog. It's public. You guys can all read it. It's a very different mindset of making decisions. So let me unpack that.

When I was at Facebook, Instagram, and other companies, you know, other tech companies, you know, there's a saying around product, engine design, you know, marketing, all these cross-functional people need to come together to build a product, right? And oftentimes you will notice that the decision-making process could get a little bit convoluted. Not always, but a little bit convoluted. It's like, okay, what do you like? You've got to align, influence, align, influence, align. And next thing you know, and again, I'm not saying always, but sometimes it can happen

that the thing that ends up shipping is the least common denominator that annoyed everybody the least amount. Right? Everybody said, yep, I could get comfortable with that. You know? I can get comfortable with that, you know? And Brian has an allergic reaction to things like committees. You know, it's like designing by committee. You know, so the idea that we have, and you can read in her blog,

is the idea of a directly responsible individual or DRI. So for every project, we'll establish a DRI. It could be a person in operations, engineering, design, legal, marketing, whatever that is, depending on the nature of the project. And what the RRI's job is to then listen to the cross-functional partners, get their input. And we are of a written culture like Amazon. on. So every input is provided in writing. So you can see what your head of legal is saying.

You can see what your head of operations is saying, what engineering is saying in writing. And then the DRI's job is to take all that input and make a decision. Not take all that input and do necessarily what's right by everybody. Still do what's right by the customer. Still do what's right by the business. Still do what's right for the user, you know, in many regards. But take that input, inform yourself with all the right things, but it's your job to then make the final call, whoever you might be, sometimes it's operation, sometimes it's engineering, sometimes as design and product. And others then have to disagree and champion that for you. So I might go in and I might write in that rapid, I disagree with this. Here are the reasons why.

But the decider or the DRI has to make that decision. And once that decision is made, I got to disagree and commit to it and champion it with the rest of the team as if it was my decision. You know, it's not just disagree and commit. It's disagreeing champion. Go out there and evangelize that this is the right thing to do. Now, there are lots of advantages of that. It cuts all the passive-aggressive behaviors that all of us have seen in different companies. It's like, I've got to go talk to this head of X. I've got to be dice.

I've got to make sure we have this relationship. And the decision gets dragged over two, three months. Right? Because the speed of decision-making is directly proportional to the strength of your relationship in those companies. Here, the speed of decision-making is directly proportional to the person who is directly responsible for making that decision happen.

Right. And it is, of course, incumbent upon that. person to listen and get and solicit advice. But at the end of the day, they're the single next to choke. They're the final DRI. So it's a very different culture than any place I've worked it. And when you join Coinbase, we have to orient you by saying, look, this is how we operate. You know, very different than any of the company. That's so interesting. Is that how big decisions are made or does that filter down to even like individual teams where a PM or whoever's a DR and a team makes decisions this way? Individual people as well. So you will see PM's writing, engineers writing,

in operations and legal writing a rapid. It's called rapid. It's for rapid decision making. And it's the same format that I would use if I want Brian to make a decision. It's the same format someone will use inside their team. So let's see you are working on a particular project. You will write that rapid. It's the same exact format, same exact mechanism.

And every team uses those mechanisms to actually scale. Otherwise, decision making can actually be the Achilles scale of hypergrowth companies. Is there anything else that's unique about how Coinbase operates that's stuck with you that you might take to? a future company that you may work at if you ever leave Coinbase? Yeah, I think decision making is one. I think just the idea of how to operate in such an ambiguous industry. Like when I got to Airbnb, ambiguity was a lot because it was the first time we were doing

home sharing as an example, right? And it was not done before, but you had the overall understanding of the travel industry, the customer, the regulation, et cetera, et cetera. But I think VEP3 is a very ridiculously new thing, you know. People sometimes ask me, what is the future of NFD? I said, ta-da, I don't know. you know, I'll experiment, figure it out, I have an opinion. I'll take that opinion and start to execute against it, but nobody knows, right?

So how do you build conviction in a highly noisy world, right? I mean, Web3, as you probably want on Twitter, everybody has an opinion on Twitter, you know, X should do Y and Y should do Z, and this is how it should be, right? And the thing that I would take with me everywhere is how do you build in that noise, how do you stay focused and still build what you believe is the right thing and still let the noise happen around you. And I think as Web3 advances and every company becomes a Web3 company, that's at least my prediction in this decade, just like every company became a mobile company, didn't have a mobile app, but became a mobile company. I think every company will become a Web3

company. So everybody will have to build that muscle of operating in that level of ambiguity, where there's literally no data, you know, and a lot of noise. Is there some way of operating at Coinbase that allows them to operate in this ambiguity and focus? Is there something that you've seen there? Yeah, I mean, we have our own flaws. I mean, no companies, perfect. We have our own flaws, but what we have figured out is how to operate just the way I described before, which is a DRI mindset culture. Instead of having 15 people have 15 different perspectives, etc. It should all be a malcommitted into one rapid. And we trust our leaders. We trust the DRI, whoever that DRI is to make the decision. And then we start going towards the same direction.

We ignore all the noise over there. Again, no company is perfect yet. We are still learning, but this is something I've found to be very effective. On the thread of Web 3, if someone's thinking about like, should I get into a Web3 sort of company? Should I not? What sort of people do you find are most successful? Maybe on the product side specifically, but even broadly, folks that may enjoy the world of Web3 and others that, like, maybe not. Yeah, I think Web 3 is definitely at a stage right now

where I'm seeing a lot of influx of people from Web 2 world. Like, literally, if I look at my LinkedIn post, you know, there's somebody saying, to now I left X and I'm joining a Web3 company, you know? So there's already- Of course, starters pivoting to Web 3 in their entire team. Exactly. Starts pivoting to Web 3 as well. So I feel like when I joined, I mean, just I joined very recently.

I mean, not like a long time ago. When I joined, it was a very different conversation. You know, I was still telling execs and others at Google and Facebook, this is why you should join. This is what's happening, et cetera. But now I feel like the world is slightly different. I think the people who will thrive or who thrive in Web 3 are people who truly are able to understand the potential and disregard the constraints of today. And here's what I mean by that. You all have seen articles written by really influential celebrities saying Web3 sucks.

And let me tell you why, because today sucks, right? We agree with the future principles of Web 3, of decentralization, this and that. But look at today. You know, everything is centralized, everything is blah, blah, blah. I always remind those people, it's like the path to Web 3 goes, and from Web 2 to Web 2.5. It doesn't go straight from Web 2 to Web 3. You know, it goes through Web 2.5. So you got to go through that journey.

And a lot of stuff that's happening in Web 2 today, or Web 3 today, is Web 2.5, 2.5, 2.7 kind of is there's no truly decentralized stuff that is there, but the idealism is there. Like the closest thing is Ethereum probably or Bitcoin, the idealism is there and we want to get towards that all, right? So the people who will thrive most are people who understand those ideals, understand the future and our builders want to take what it is today and then morph it into the idols of tomorrow. I remember I'm a history buff and I love watching the history of technology. And there's a video on YouTube which describes someone playing with the internet.

net back in 1986, 87, 89, right? And what you had to do was if I wanted to visit Lenny's website, here's what I'll do. I'll type 192. Whatever the IP address was. And then I'm going to hit enter on a blue screen. And then there'll be things coming down and I'll pay $200 to just access his website. They weren't nays series too, right? But if you can get past that and see that someday Lenny and I will actually have a podcast, video

podcast, or digital podcast over the internet. and we'll be able to see each other and record that shit. That is powerful. So we're looking for people at this stage who believe in that journey. I love that. And just the idea of hiring and joining company. I wanted to touch on hiring advice. You're really good at hiring.

You've hired many people. You've interviewed tons and tons of PMs. And so I just wanted to touch on this before we wrap up. I find that hiring and just finding people is maybe the single biggest pain point for companies these days and startups especially. Do you have any advice for founders? or product leaders or just leaders in general for hiring, including finding people and closing them, that kind of thing.

Yeah, I think maybe I can focus a little bit about what are some of the things that I believe are incredibly important for startups to get right when they're hiring. A couple of things to remember is that what really matters, what's highly co-related to a startup success, isn't that they used a process like scrum, like this, like that. What's highly correlated is that somebody bloody knew what to do when. that is the most important. And I call that content.

Content means what you do, when. Process means how you do the thing that I just said. And I think there's a very easy lure, there's a love affection towards process, you know. And I think Reed Hastings has talked about this in their culture deck. You know, Steve Jobs has also talked about in the past is that oftentimes we gravitate towards people who know how to avoid mistakes, who know how to create a process.

You know, here's what typical cycle is. You know, you get bigger and bigger. you start making mistakes. You're like, oh, we got to create a process so we don't make the same mistake again. And next thing you know, over a period of time, the process becomes the product. Every morning you wake up, you look at your calendar.

80% of the time as an execute, you are moving the process. You're managing the process, and that process becomes the product. And you lose sight of what real, the real product is, who your real customers are. So my advice to people, especially in early stage startups,

is like bringing people who know content and teach them process, as opposed to bringing in people who know process and try and teach them content. Because that's a bloody hard thing to do. And this obsession about a lot of founders ask me when I consult with them is like, should we do scrum? Should we do X, Y, Z, process?

I'm like, you can do whatever you want. Doesn't matter. You can try any of those things. It will not be correlated to your success, you know? Maybe to some degree, but not a lot of degree. What you really need to figure out is who do you hire, who can actually understand what the content of your product is, what the content of your customers is, how do you win in that industry that you're operating in and make sure that you stay upset.

over there, right, as opposed to the process. This is something Brian Chesky was like grilled in me, hired executives who know how to execute. And his idea was, let's say, Sanchin's entire team disappears. And then I go to Brian and say, hey, Brian, you know, I got to hire this organization, I got to hire these people, and then I'll tell you what to build. Or I'll then build, right?

No, I should be able to then roll up my sleeve if I'm a content kind of a leader, and I should do exactly what my team did. Maybe not with the same capacity, because if I have so many people team, I can't do so many people's worth of work. but at least be able to tell you, this is what we should build, this is when we should build, this is how we should build it.

I shouldn't be a leader who just delegates to the extent that I forgot what content is. And that is a very important piece. When you're looking for a leader like that, because that sounds amazing, what do you look for? How do you know if there's that sort of leader when you're interviewing or just kind of evaluating? So one of the things we did at Airbnb, because this was the thesis that we had over there, we actually changed our interview process around this. So we will give people a work challenge.

You're very familiar with that. Most people say, come and do a presentation. No, we actually gave you a work challenge. He said, this is the problem you're facing. How are you going to solve it? We're facing Airbnb Plus problem. We need to build millions of homes that are Airbnb Plus quality. We don't know how to do that.

What would you do? And we want to see the depth of thinking. They don't know the right answer because they don't have the right data. That's okay. But they at least need to show us how they approach the problem. What are they going to do? And they need to show us the content of how they're going to do. do. Some people will come in and say, and I've seen slides in those presentation, they'll come in and say,

here's my process. Ideation, execution, iteration. That's okay. I want to know what you're going to do inside of ideation. Some execs will come and present to say, but the first thing I'm going to do is go out there and figure out are there third-party companies who can actually scale my operations without building it in-out. That is content, right? And I want to evaluate that. The second thing we will do is in our interview process as well, like if it's an exec, Brian will spend time and I will spend time, anybody else will spend time, we will focus on whatever. you did in the past, tell me the role that you played in that versus telling me everything that you teamed it. Tell me precisely the role you played. And this is something I tell a lot of my

folks at Coinbase as well. It's like, you got to be able to bring things to me, escalate to me when you need my help, you know, and let me help you be successful. My role is such that I have a large team and I can't do everything. What I can do is set them up for success. How? Of course, the tactical stuff like resources. But more importantly, when we're thinking about the content, when we think about what to do, when to do, how to do, we'll sit together and think about that, you know, escalate to me, bring things to me. I will go into the mud with you and I'll create that clay for you, with you, you know, and that is how I stay relevant. But more importantly, that is the value that I get to help my team succeed as well. I love that. I was just thinking that

the fact that you call kind of the roadmap and the plan a content that makes you a content creator. And how does that feel? Yes, that does feel good. I mean, you should have the ability to create a roadmap and that is you're creating content around that. But, you know, the thing that I want to make sure people understand is that the format of that roadmap doesn't matter. How you present, like, whether you use Excel or this or that, some doesn't matter. That process doesn't matter. What matters is that you were able to come up with the right roadmap, which is what you're going to build and what time you're going to build. And that is a core value set of an individual or a leader that you should absolutely look for and thrive.

Otherwise, my prediction is four or five years later, you know, or whatever the time is, that company will start to attract process people. The next thing, you know, everybody in the company is a process person. Nobody is a content person. And then what happens happening is the founder ends up taking that burden or become the content person.

And next thing, you know, they can't scale, right? They just cannot scale. The company cannot scale. Yeah, because process eventually just kind of starts to break down. Exactly. There's a very good deck. I'll encourage your audience to watch it, the Netflix culture deck.

And Reed Hastings talks about this at length, you know, better than I did. And it's a beautiful concept. It's a beautiful argument. And I think I will encourage every father to start looking for that. And again, I'm not saying process shouldn't exist. You absolutely need some process. The way, you can scale. You can't scale without some process as well.

But process is not the answer. Content is the answer. I feel like I've taken enough of your time. And so we've gotten to the final part of our chat, which is the lightning round, where I'm going to ask you a few questions. and then just tell me what first thing that comes to mind. If nothing comes to mind, that's totally cool too. Does that sound good?

Yeah, that sounds great, man. Okay. What's a book that you recommend most to other product leaders? Two books come to mind. One is The Little Betts, which is how you live your life and how you build businesses with little bets. And the other thing, I would say, the innovator's dilemma, those are two of my favorite books.

And I highly recommend everybody reading those. Awesome. What's a company that you recommend most of PMS that are looking for a new job other than Coinbase? Yeah, I mean, I think there are tons of Web3 companies or tons of other companies. I would say amongst the companies that I have worked with insight, say where it is. I think Airbus is a great company. People should definitely look at that company.

It is once in a lifetime kind of a company as well, and people will enjoy working over there. Agreed. What's a favorite app right now? My favorite app right now, Coinbase NFT. Shit, I should have said other than Coinbase. All right, you got that. I would say I love TikTok. I am on TikTok all the time.

I love how entertaining it is. I love how simple it is, you know, so I'm on TikTok all the time. Same. We're in trouble. Who's your favorite manager that you had? Oh, my favorite manager. It was my first manager. His name is Sashi.

He was at Microsoft. And he formerly helped change the trajectory of my life. So he believed in me. I was just out of college at that time, you know? And he invested me. The most important thing was he invested in me. You know, if any successful person you meet in your life, one thing they will all tell you is at some point in their time, in their life, somebody believed in them and somebody invested

in them. And that was that manager. Amazing. And then finally, what's a favorite interview question that you like to use? Tell me the story of your career and focus more on why you did what you did. And I asked this question because the resume is full of polished shit. And it's like, oh, I did this. I did this.

I want to hear the story. And tell me why you did what you did. And that tells me a lot about the person when they're answering the question of not the what. Because I can see that on the LinkedIn or the resume, but the why. Why they chose to do what they chose to do. I love that. Where can folks find you online? And then how can listeners be helpful to you?

Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty active on Twitter. Now that you know, I'm also active on TikTok. But Twitter is probably the best place to follow me. And yeah, if you have any suggestion, anything you want to chat about, send me a message on Twitter, DM me or LinkedIn, you know, one of those places. And I'll be happy to chat with you. And I imagine folks should check out Coinbase, NFT and Coinbase wallet. Absolutely, man.

How do people find that? NFT.com. Give it a shot and let us know what you think. Thank you so much, Sanchin, for being here. This was amazing. Thank you, Lenny, for having me. That was awesome. Thank you for listening. If you enjoy the chat, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. You could also learn more at lenniespodcast.com. I'll see in the next episode.