Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - The hidden power of introverts: How to thrive without changing who you are | Susan Cain (author of "Quiet")

Starting point is 00:00:00 I see introversion and extroversion in general as just two different kinds of strengths. The problem in our culture is just that we emphasize one type of strength, the extroverted strength, usually more than we do the introverted strength, but that they're equally valuable. There's probably not this binary thing. Your introvert, extrovert is the spectrum of introvertedness, extrovertness. Do people move along the spectrum often? I feel like I've definitely become more extroverted over time. I've had the exact same trajectory you just described.

Starting point is 00:00:26 I used to be terrified of public speaking. Now I do it all the time. I used to be quite shy. But that's not really describing, I don't believe, becoming more extroverted. That's more describing acquiring skills. As we grow and gain experience, we acquire all kinds of skills. What the people most want is just like, how do I become potentially more extroverted slash less, allow introvertiness to hurt me in my career?

Starting point is 00:00:49 This is a paradox that I have observed that the more introverts become, like, deeply comfortable in their own skin. That's when they start to show up at the job interview or on the stage. in a more powerful way because you're now there as your own true being, as opposed to there always being a voice in your head saying, I'm not really supposed to be me. How can you help people believe this is actually true, that you can be just as successful being very true to yourself

Starting point is 00:01:15 versus learning to be an extrovert? One of the most important things you can do. Today, my guest is Susan Kane. Susan is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Quiet, the power of introverts in the world I Can Stop Talking, Her books have been translated into 40 languages, her TED Talks have been viewed over 50 million times, and she basically made me and every other introvert in the world feel okay about being an introvert and showed that actually embracing that about yourself can unlock a ton of opportunity and success in your life.

Starting point is 00:01:49 In our conversation, Susan shares a ton of very tangible advice for how to be more successful in business as an introvert, including what skills you should actually be building that don't come naturally to you. Also, what actually is an introvert, how to raise kids who might be introverted, and so much more, this was such a wonderful conversation and so much of it resonated with me. This episode is for anyone who considers themselves an introvert, or if you work with people who are introverts and you want to learn how to help them thrive. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you, Susan Kane. This episode is brought to you by Interpret.

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Starting point is 00:03:32 when you sign up for an annual plan. This is a limited-time offer. That's interpret.com slash Lenny. This episode is brought to you by Vanta, and I am very excited to have Christina Casiopo, CEO and co-founder of Vanta joining me for this very short conversation. Great to be here. Big fan of the podcast and the newsletter. Vanta is a longtime sponsor of the show, but for some of our newer listeners,

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Starting point is 00:04:19 start and scale their security programs and ultimately build trust by automating compliance, centralizing GRC, and accelerating security reviews. That is awesome. I know from experience that these things take a lot of time and a lot of resources, and nobody wants to spend time doing this. That is very much our experience, but before the company and some extent during it, but the idea is with automation, with AI, with software,

Starting point is 00:04:43 we are helping customers build trust with prospects and customers in an efficient way. And, you know, our joke, we started this compliance company, so you don't have to. We appreciate you for doing that. And you have a special discount for listeners. They can get $1,000 off Vanta at vanta.com slash Lenny. That's v-a-n-t-a-n-com slash Lenny for $1,000 off V-A-V-A-V-A-V-A-V-A-T-A. Thank you. Susan, thank you so much for being here.

Starting point is 00:05:13 Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Lenny. It's so exciting to be here. I just want to start with just from one introvert to another and from someone that would rather be sitting in a corner writing versus being on camera, talking, performing a little bit. I appreciate you extra for doing this and flexing your extroverted energy. Oh, my gosh, absolutely. Thank you. And I know you haven't even asked a single question yet, but I just, in response to what you just said, because you just identified

Starting point is 00:05:41 yourself as an introvert, that was actually a question I wanted to ask you, because when I look at the work that you do in the world and the way that you do it, and I had never seen you on video before, I said to myself, I'm sure Lenny's an introvert. And the reason I thought that is because there's something about like the intensity with which you do your work and you're like so passionate about your subject and your means of success is by going super deep into your passion. And that's such an introvert thing. So I was like 95% sure. That is so funny. I love that.

Starting point is 00:06:21 I appreciate that. So, okay, so let me set a little foundation for folks. We kind of dove into stuff, but I think this will be helpful. We're talking about introvertedness. What is the clearest sign you an introvert? Two questions you could ask yourself if you're not really sure how you identify. So one of them is, you know, how do you feel, like imagine that you are going to a party or networking event that you are truly enjoying with company. you truly enjoy. If you're an extrovert, you probably find this incredibly energizing. And so after

Starting point is 00:07:00 two hours or so, you're looking for more because you're now hyper energized. And if you're an introvert, no matter how much you love all those people you were just talking to, your battery is probably way drained. And so after two hours, you're looking for the escape route. So that's kind of one question to ask. And then another one would be, if you imagine a weekend, let's say, where you are totally free of social and professional obligations, how would you choose to spend your time and how many people would be in the picture and how well would you know those people? Like would you be allocating your social time to just one or two close friends or family members, or would you be excited about a party full of people you don't know that well?

Starting point is 00:07:52 Those kinds of questions tell you a lot about what your true preferences are. And I stress that phrase true preferences because for introverts in an extroverted culture, we spend so much time kind of unconsciously adapting. to what we think our preferences are supposed to be that I hear from many people that they kind of have lost touch with how they actually prefer to spend their time. First of all, I love the two-hour, like, heuristic

Starting point is 00:08:22 as I could just pay attention to it, like, after two hours. Because I could, as you were describing initially, like, no, that'd be really cool. Just like me with a bunch of interesting people for, like, if I'm an extrovert, if I enjoy that, oh, maybe I'm an extravert. But then it's like, okay, two hours, okay. And so clearly to me, be like, yes, I'll be exhausted.

Starting point is 00:08:39 and want to go do something else. Yeah, and even the feeling of like you wish you could just like push a button and be instantly home when you hit that wall. I would love that. Like what I find is I just run out of steam. I just can't talk. I'm just like my voice is like I'm pushing it out. That's really interesting.

Starting point is 00:08:57 Okay. So another thought I had as you were talking is, I know it's probably not this binary thing. Your introvert, extrovert is the spectrum of introvertedness, extroverteness? Is there anything along those lines that's useful for people to hear just like how to think about the spectrum of introvertedness? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So first of all, there is a term that psychologists have termed, that have coined, for people who really are kind of neither here nor there. They're in the middle of the spectrum. So that term is ambivert. And I think that does describe a fair amount of people. But then what's also important to know is that even for people who are quite extroverted or quite introverted like me, you know, we still have our moments when we're acting kind of out of type. because humans are incredibly complex beings. So I feel like it's really important when talking about this topic.

Starting point is 00:09:48 It's like two opposite things are true. On the one hand, I really do believe that this question of how introverted or extroverted we are shapes so much about the way that we work and think and make decisions and love and interact and all the rest of it. It's hugely important. Psychologists have called it the north and south of human temperament. So that's point one. But then on the opposite side, humans are gloriously complex. And there's always a danger in talking about subject like this of reducing ourselves and each other to a label

Starting point is 00:10:30 and then expecting ourselves and each other to behave according to that label in all circumstances. And that's, of course, a mistake. Do people move along the spectrum often? And I ask this because I feel like I've definitely become more extroverted over time. I used to be super shy. I'm very, very afraid of public speaking and big social things. And I've just learned to not be as much. And I still definitely am.

Starting point is 00:10:56 So is it common for people to move along the spectrum? And do they move in both directions? Or is it usually from introvert to extrovert? Okay. So first of all, I've had the exact same trajectory you just described. Like I used to be terrified of public speaking. Now I do it all the time. I used to be quite shy.

Starting point is 00:11:13 I would say I am still a shy person, but it's not as much a top of mind every day type of reality now. That's not really describing, I don't believe, becoming more extroverted. That's more describing acquiring skills and also managing fears. And even managing, learning to manage a fear. is a type of skill. So what happens is, as we grow and gain experience, we acquire all kinds of skills of the kind you were just talking about. But in terms of, but I still come back to that question I asked at the beginning of like, how would you spend your time when you have no obligations? Because on that score, most of us actually become more introverted with time.

Starting point is 00:12:00 And I don't know if you would describe yourself this way, but like I remember for me, even though I was a shy person, you know, like in high school, I would come home from school and spend my whole evening talking to all my friends on the phone. And I would never do that now. And psychologists have studied this. So like, people tend to mellow out over time. So if you were, let's say, the third most extroverted person in your high school and then you go to your high school reunion 40 years later, you'll probably still be one of the most extroverted people in your class, but all of you will have chilled out and calmed down quite a bit.

Starting point is 00:12:46 And that's a separate dimension from that dimension of learning to be a public speaker and all that kind of stuff. That is so interesting. I never thought of it this way. I've always thought I'm getting more extroverted because I'm doing more of this sort of thing and enjoying things like this. It's so interesting to reframe it into I've just learning. how to cope and be successful in these situations, but I'm still the same. And it's, it's funny that you say that because I can't tell you how often people have said to me, well, they'll either say, oh, you do public speaking, so you never were an introvert, you're like, you're actually an extrovert,

Starting point is 00:13:20 or they'll say, oh, you've gotten more extroverted with time. And I would say neither of those things is true. It's just a skill. Okay, this is something I definitely wanted to ask you about. So people are hearing you right now hearing you be very confident, clear, just like not coming across as an introvert, also watching your TED talks, probably seeing some of your other talks. Like, it's not, like you don't seem like an introvert.

Starting point is 00:13:46 I'm curious just what your experience of being an introvert is that might give people a glimpse into, okay, I didn't realize this about people. Because I think this is common to a lot of people. You see a lot of people that are actually super introverted, but they don't seem that way. So just to give people an example of the stuff you've gone through, the stuff you deal with, as an introvert, that people may not see. What are some examples of that?

Starting point is 00:14:07 Oh, yeah. And to your point, I can't even tell you how many people there are out there presenting is quite extroverted. And then because I have this funny role in society as, like, the world's confessor of introverts, they all come up to me at conferences and things and tell me what they're really feeling and who they really are. And it's often like the people you would never suspect. But yeah, like, okay, I mean, if you look at the way I just spent my day before recording this with you, and it's now my time, 4.24 p.m., so it's quite late in the day. I've not really spoken to many people today. You know, I drove my son to and from school. My husband's out of town, so I didn't talk to him yet.

Starting point is 00:14:56 And then I've been working on my laptop and walking my dog. And that's been a really happy day for me. So, and in general, I'm like really, really happy lavishing a lot of social time on my family or close friends, but I don't do that much social, like, you know, technically social stuff. And in terms of, I'm not sure if you use the word overcome, but it was some kind of word like that in your friends. question. So for things like this, you know, like super public facing stuff, that I really did have to learn how to get comfortable with over time. And I used to be absolutely terrified of public speaking, like, like lose five pounds before every speech kind of terrified. And I want to say this for anybody out there who's listening, who has this fear, because it's a lot, a lot of

Starting point is 00:15:57 people, that the miraculous thing is that this kind of fear, as with any type of fear, is actually overcomable because there's this miracle kind of phenomenon that psychologists call desensitization, that basically, if you have any kind of fear, you can expose yourself in very small and manageable doses to the thing that you fear, and that's the way to neutralize it. So, like, I signed up before my book Quiet came out, and I knew I was going to have to really be out there in the spotlight. I signed up for classes for people with public speaking anxiety. And in these classes, you just had to, like, you'd start out by standing up and saying your name and then sitting down again. And that would be the whole exercise for the class.

Starting point is 00:16:49 And then you'd come back a week later and do a little bit more. And that's the way to get over it. So I always encourage people, like sign up for Toastmasters or something like that, where you can practice speaking in supportive environments where the stakes are really low until you can retrain your brain that the stage is not actually a saber-tooth tiger, which is what your brain currently believes it to be. Okay, so let me come back to this because I think that's what people most want is just like, how do I become potentially more extroverted slash less allow introvertedness to hurt me in my career?

Starting point is 00:17:23 but let me just ask you this question. This kind of like... Can I actually stop you right there? Yes. I would just say, like, I totally get it, that that's what people feel that they want. But what we think we want is not always actually the way to the ultimate goal we want. Because I think what we really want is to learn to be completely comfortable as ourselves.

Starting point is 00:17:48 And I will... I know that sounds like a, you know, kind of bland or woo-woo. thing to say. But this is a paradox that I have observed through all the years that I've been doing this, that the more introverts or anybody else become deeply comfortable in their own skin, that's when they start to show up at the job interview or on the stage or whatever the venue is in a more powerful way, because you're now there as your own true being, as opposed to there are always being a voice in your head saying, I'm not really supposed to be me, so I'm going to pretend to be somebody else. And people can pick that up and you can pick it out.

Starting point is 00:18:31 I think people hear this idea that you teach in your book that you can be very successful as an introvert. And I bet it's intellectually difficult to actually believe you can be as successful as an introvert versus being an extrovert because you see all these founders, They're very charismatic, extroverted. You see people at meetings, all the loud, you know, voices in the room always seem to get what they want. How can you help people believe this is actually true that you can be just as successful being very true to yourself versus learning to be an extrovert? One of the most important things you can do for whoever is listening in whatever field that you happen to be operating in is to look for people in your field who have your way of being, who are introverted and who are. powerful and there are so many of them in every field. So just to go back to the public speaking

Starting point is 00:19:27 example for a second, but then I'm going to go out from there. Like when I was getting started as a public speaker, for me, my talisman person was Malcolm Gladwell because he's an incredibly captivating speaker. He's a self-described introvert. And the power of his speaking is not, you know, being like the super energized showman, but rather he's a pretty cerebral person with a lot of interesting stuff to say. And I thought, okay, not that my personality is exactly like his, but it's like, okay, that's kind of a way that I could be on stage. I can have interesting things to say that I'm very impassioned about saying. And this is true. You can look at so many different fields. So like, for example, in finance, you're somebody like Warren Buffett. He's a shy introvert.

Starting point is 00:20:17 he has talked about this. And a lot of the engine of his success is that he figured out how to draw on his own introverted strengths. So, for example, he is known for spending hours pouring over financial documents. And he is known for saying that what gets people to be a really good investor is not so much IQ as having the temperament to control yourself and take prudent bets, which is something that introverts are known for. There's all kinds of studies documenting this and showing introverted traders being especially successful and so on. He's also known for selecting managers very wisely and carefully and then really delegating and relying on those people, which again is a hallmark of introverted leadership that we see in various studies and examples. Now, Warren Buffett

Starting point is 00:21:19 was also somebody who started out as a shy public speaker, and he signed up for one of those Dale Carnegie training classes when he was like 21. And so he learned how to be, you know, this kind of folksy guy out in public. And so there's nothing I'm saying that's against the idea of, like, yes, you know, acquire the skills that you need to acquire to be successful in your given field. And yes, that might require stepping outside your comfort zone to acquire those skills. But there's a difference between acquiring skills and trying to be someone who you're not. Those are really different things. So yes, acquire the skills, but then like learn how to be you.

Starting point is 00:22:07 And whether you're a public speaker or a salesperson or a negotiator or a marketer, whatever it is, there's a way to do that in a kind of more thoughtful, more deliberative, more analytical, more listening-oriented style that can be incredibly powerful. The bottom line of everything I just said is look for your role models because they're going to show you that you can do it. That's such a powerful point. Just instead of kind of assuming what you see in the media of just here's all the successful people and just assuming they're all extroverts, actually find folks that are in your orbit that are successful, that are also introverts to kind of show you, give you evidence you can be really successful and not have to become someone else. Oh, yeah. And if you're talking about the realm of founders and startup people, like there's just so many of them, you know, especially. like in the world of Silicon Valley. Who comes to mine?

Starting point is 00:23:05 It does examples. Oh, gosh. I mean, like dating all the way back to, you know, Bill Gates and that era, there have just been so many. This point of becoming more of who you are is connected to something that comes up a lot on this podcast, of the power of leaning into your strengths and not trying to focus on your weaknesses, of just becoming more of leaning into the things you're good at and doing the things you want to accomplish through that.

Starting point is 00:23:34 For example, in my experience, I'm just like, I don't, I'm not an amazing, I'm not an amazing speaker. I'm not an amazing person to run meetings, but I'm much, I'm really good at like, after the meeting, here's like the doc of the meeting, here's the next step, here's kind of like acing follow-ups and stuff like that. And I found the writing, let me accomplish all the same things without feeling like, oh, I need to become this amazing presenter. Absolutely.

Starting point is 00:23:57 And I would say in addition to that, I don't think that that means that you need to be limited only to writing. Because, I mean, even just talking to you for 15 minutes or so, like, you know, I get a feeling of like, okay, I'm talking to somebody who's extremely authentic, extremely intelligent, extremely knowledgeable. and those are all incredibly powerful traits that modest introverts tend to discount. That's a good pushback and good reminder. But I hear you. Okay, good. I want to go back to the tactics you started to share of how to be successful in business as an introvert because a lot of times companies aren't set up to be for introverts to thrive.

Starting point is 00:24:51 And so I'm curious what either you have done or what you've seen people do as introverts to set themselves up for more success in a business career. Gosh, there's a lot we can talk about. I'll give you a few ideas. I mean, one is to find ways to make sure that other people know how much you know and how much you're contributing. because I can't tell you how often company leaders will tell me that they lose valuable people because those people aren't good at self-promotion, and then their contributions are undervalued or they feel undervalued, so they end up leaving. And that is not good for anybody.

Starting point is 00:25:42 Okay, so what can you do to do this? If you are somebody who is comfortable writing the way you are, you could start a company blog or some other way of disseminating your expertise through writing that will thereby gain attention. Another thing that you can do, if you're either comfortable already with public speaking or are planning to acquire that particular skill, there's something in our culture where people who put themselves forward on a stage gain disproportionate respect. So if you can put yourself forward to do, it could be like two minutes. It could be five minutes. You know, maybe you start a lecture series at your company where you bring in speakers and you're the one who's always introducing them. So you're just on stage for like the two minutes that you're introducing them. But you're the one who put the whole thing together. That's the kind of thing that can bring you a lot of prominence with kind of like disproportionate bang for the buck. And that kind of thing is also a great way of just practicing these skills and getting more comfortable with them. Okay, so that's one.

Starting point is 00:26:52 A second one is to, I'm thinking of a woman named Kathy Fish, who until not long ago, is the head of R&D at Procter & Gamble. And Kathy's a self-described introvert. And she talked about how her superpower was she was really good. at connecting with people one-on-one and building deep connections in that way. So she wasn't the person who would like sweep charismaticly into the room and everyone would know who she was. But it was like one by one by one by one, she was building up all these relationships that as she got more senior in her company, everyone knew who she was, they liked her, they trusted her. And that turned out to be incredibly powerful.

Starting point is 00:27:41 third idea quiet people often are misunderstood to be unambitious so if you're an ambitious person you have to make sure that your colleagues know about that so i would look for a mentor and ask for ask if you could have 10 minutes to ask their advice and most people love to be asked for advice and we're happy to give it and let that person know what your goal and hopes and ambitions actually are, you know, for one year, three years, five years from now, and ask for their advice on how you could get there. And they might come up with, you know, like one little strategy that will make a huge difference for you. Or they might start being the one to go to bat for you now that they know that you have the ambition to do X, Y, Z.

Starting point is 00:28:34 This is awesome. Okay, let me summarize some of the stuff you've shared. And this is kind of like a list of things you as an introvert can do to be more successful in, your career and probably in your life. And I'll include all the things you shared because it's all useful. So one is look for a role model that's really successful, that's an introvert to show you you can do this. You don't have to be this extroverted charismatic CEO person. Two is show your value.

Starting point is 00:28:55 Make sure people actually see the value you're providing because a lot of introverts don't. Three is actually lean into public speaking and work on that skill. To your point, it's looked at very highly if you can do that okay. And your advice is just like do little bits. You don't need to give like a 30 minute all-hands presentation, just like a little bit of time on stage. It goes a long way. I'll give one recommendation. I had this person on the podcast, and I found this public speaking course the most useful of all the things I've done. It's called ultra-speaking. And it's very much based in doing it versus intellectualizing to speak better. And it's made up of these very low risk games that you play with other people. And you just talk without much support. and it's very like low risk but it's at the edge of scary and keeps kind of leveling up a little bit. Okay, and then, okay, I'll keep up with their list. Four is connect one-on-one with people.

Starting point is 00:29:50 So instead of just like, I need to be amazing in this meeting, it's like make sure you connect with everyone one-on-one in the company and they understand how awesome you are and you end up being more, look more awesome when you're going one-on-one with people as an introvert. And then five is kind of make it, is the advice you're around ambition? it's like introverts are ambitious, but they may not understand how to achieve this ambition. So it's less like make it clear your ambitious, more so come up with a plan to achieve this ambition by getting advice from someone. Is that the advice? Yeah. And first of all, I'm amazed that you could like do that. I don't know how you pulled that off just now. Quick notes. And I would add to it to make sure to kind of lean into your strengths.

Starting point is 00:30:36 And I was just thinking about your case of like, when I said that I look at your newsletter and I was pretty sure you were an introvert, it wasn't because, oh, this is a person who's writing for a living. That piece actually hadn't really occurred to me. It was because you're so obviously someone who goes really deeply and really thoroughly into a subject of passion. And then, you know, it's almost like you're, it's almost, it's almost. almost like a little hero's journey. You're going into the forest of your passion, and then you're bringing the treasures for the rest of us to enjoy. And this is something that introverts do very naturally. Like we tend to have one or two or three passions in our lives and one or two or three people in our lives who are very devoted to you and we lavish everything in the direction of those passions and those people. And that is an incredible superpower. And so very often, like if you look at introverts who have become great, leaders in a broad variety of fields. They're usually, they're not the kind of people who, when they were a kid, everybody was like, that child is a natural leader. Like, they're not that person. They're usually people who have these incredibly deep passions. And if you have those, you end up acquiring a lot of expertise and building a network of people who have those same passions and inspire and a lot of trust from people who care about the same stuff that you do. And that's a real superpower. The way you describe it makes me want to just hire a company of introverts. They go, they spend all this time finding treasures for you and bring them back quietly and very.

Starting point is 00:32:18 That's funny. But actually, I'm glad you said that because what I really do think, and the research bears this out too, the best performing teams and companies really are a mix of both. Like, we so desperately need both types. And introverts and extroverts tend to really enjoy each other's company because we compliment each other so well. And it's very easy to admire strengths and traits that we don't have ourselves. So there's a kind of mutual admiration that goes on as well. Speaking of that, it reminds me of, I don't know if this was in your book or a different book. There's some data that shows salespeople that are more introverted or actually more successful. Does that ring a bell? I think that the most recent study I've seen shows the most successful salespeople are ambivert.

Starting point is 00:33:01 because they're like extroverted enough to close the deal. They're introverted enough to do the listening that good salesmanship usually requires. But having said that, you could be successful any which way. And in Quiet, my book, I profiled a guy who was like, I don't remember the exact detail, but something like the leading salesperson of the year of Cutco knives. And he talked about how he would.

Starting point is 00:33:31 just go and do like these deep listening sessions with his customers and really figure out what they needed and they trusted him because he was authentically, curiously listening to them. So yeah, that's, which is to say there's whatever strength you have, you know, you figure out how to maximize it. That resonates with product work. A lot of people, you know, a lot of part of the job of a product leader is to figure out what to build and a lot of that is talking to users, research and things like that and actually listening.

Starting point is 00:34:00 and so it's interesting and similar that sales anecdotes to being a great product person. Something that this brings up

Starting point is 00:34:09 for me is the importance of saying no to things as an introvert that are not things that bring you energy and

Starting point is 00:34:17 will distract you from this sort of thing. And I know Tim Ferriss is writing this new book called The No Book. I was listening to your interview

Starting point is 00:34:24 with him. That's why I had in my mind. But I guess is there anything you've learned about just or any tactics you've learned

Starting point is 00:34:30 about saying know to things that one will de-energize you and two, just allow you to kill deep on stuff that you want to go deep on. Well, I mean, you might have heard the following advice before. When I first heard it, it came as a revelation to me. But it's when someone asks you to do something that is like three or four or five months away, there's a tendency to say yes to that because it feels so safely in the distance. So before you say yes, you should ask yourself how you'd feel if you had to do that thing.

Starting point is 00:35:00 tomorrow or next week. And that's that's the real test. But also a more broad level, I, okay, I love the psychologist, Mihali Cheekshinthmi Hai, late psychologist. He did all these studies on creativity and wrote a book about it. And at the beginning of this book, he talks about how he approached all these deeply famously creative people who he, wanted to study. And he said that he got back answers from some of them saying, your study sounds interesting, but if I said yes to these kinds of things, I wouldn't do my I wouldn't be able to do the creative work that I did. Yeah. And that like leapt out at me. And I think about it all the time now when I regretfully say no to this and that.

Starting point is 00:35:51 That reminds me of something that I often think about. Naval has this basically the same advice. He has this insight that you start doing something really well. You become successful with it. You start getting invited to parties and events and talks and collabs. You start doing that. You have no longer, you no longer have the time to do that thing that made you successful well. And that all falls apart. And the trick is don't fall for that and keep doing the work that you're doing. I know. It's really tricky. It's very tricky because the thing is when you do, go to those kinds of events, you actually, usually do you meet incredible people who you're really happy to know. I mean, in my experience, and like some of the people I've met at those

Starting point is 00:36:39 kinds of events over the years have become my best friends. So I just try to think of it really strategically. Like I'll, I just pick, you know, a few of those things that I say yes to and then I say no to all the others. But I don't like to say no to all of them because I do feel like there's something meaningful that happens at every single one. I'm more extreme than you. I actually created a policy with myself. No events, no talks, no other podcast. Just like the default is no. And once in a while, I break the rule, but that's what I find is what I need. Because otherwise I'm just like, oh, that'll be fun. Let's go to this dinner thing. Wait, wait. This is fascinating. So like, okay, you're saying, how often do you break the no rule? Pretty rarely if it's like a work thing.

Starting point is 00:37:23 You know, if it's like friends, like meeting with a friend or something like that. But yeah, It's pretty rare. I try really hard, because partly because I get invited to a bunch of random VC stuff and talk and podcast things. So I'd say like maybe 5% of time. I break it. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. No, I understand. And I actually do, I still do, I used to do a ton of speaking for companies and schools and so on. And I still do do some of that, but I have consciously limited that so that I can focus on other projects instead. I find having a policy where I could just tell people I have this policy that I just invented

Starting point is 00:38:01 of myself is a really good way of saying no. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've gotten past the point of feeling guilty about the no most of the time, most of the time. Yeah. Because, yeah, life really is too busy. And especially if you're a parent the way you are. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:22 There's that too. Yeah. I have this post where I shared all my tricks for saying now that, willing to. That was a bunch of templates you can use, and I'm excited to see this booked in first writing, because I imagine he has to say no a lot. Yeah, absolutely. One other thought along these lines is also of all lesson, and it's interesting how much these insights stick in my head and make it change the way operate. His other piece of advice is on networking, because what you're talking about a little bit is like there's actually power in meeting people and networking,

Starting point is 00:38:51 essentially. And his advice is instead of networking, do things that are valuable, and people will come to you and want to meet you versus you trying to meet them. And I found this to be absolutely true. I find it to be so true also. And also even just for attending networking events. Like if you've done something valuable, those events are much easier because people want to talk to you about whatever that thing is and you want to talk to them about their thing. And you want to talk to them about their thing. and then all the other things that you didn't even know about each other. But I don't know, my other mode or M.O. for networking types of events is I feel like if I meet one or two or three people at one of those events who I truly, truly like, truly want to stay in touch with, truly want to be helpful to you, I consider it a success. And then I feel like I can go home or, you know, spend a lot of time in the hotel room. room after that. Whereas I have friends, I see it. Like sometimes I'll go to one of these events. And I have friends who like make a point in meeting every single person who's there. And then we'll be talking a few months later and they'll mention such and such person. They'll like, yeah, don't you remember they were at that event? And I have no idea who they're talking about. And so,

Starting point is 00:40:10 like, yes, it would be probably like a more maximum value approach to meet every single person as long as you're there. But I don't believe that to be true if you're not wired that way. And I think the power of over a lifetime of just trying to have from every situation in life, like one or two people where the connections are true and deep, over a lifetime, you have a network that you really love. All right. You take it. I go to more Van Sikas. No, no, no. Oh my gosh. I hope I'm not making it sound that way because the truth is I go to, you know, so few. Very few, you know. This episode is brought to you by the Fundrise flagship fund.

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Starting point is 00:42:00 I want to come back to tactics for introverts to be more successful. One common, I think, challenge introverts have is in big meetings with loud voices, having their ideas heard and even, like, heard and then actually like acted on. Is there anything you've learned in those situations or, tactics you've seen people implement that make them more successful in these situations. Yeah. So one very helpful tactic is to prepare in advance for a meeting a couple of points you might want to make or questions you might want to raise. Don't assume you have to be spontaneous the way other people appear to be. If you're more of a preparer, you should prepare.

Starting point is 00:42:41 And then also to give yourself a push to speak up early in the meeting, both because ideas that get advanced early tend psychologically to be anchoring ideas that people pay more attention to. But also, for you, you'll start to feel more like you're part of things, you're more at the center of things. People will be directing their eye contact towards you if you speak up early, and that becomes a kind of virtuous cycle. So that's one thing. Another is to realize that, yes, humans respond to the voice that's loudest and deepest and all that stuff. But as humans, we also respond in an unconscious kind of way to others who are speaking from a deep sense of conviction, like from a sense of truly believing what they're saying. and that is a muscle that you can strengthen.

Starting point is 00:43:44 So I would say, even when you're not at the meeting, you know, get into the habit of thinking, am I speaking from here? Am I speaking from a deep place? I'm not talking about voice right now. I mean, like, mentally, like, when I say that I love this movie, do I really believe I love this movie? And people will know it if you're coming from that place so that you don't actually have to be the loudest person in the room in order for people to pay attention. I just did a short meditation retreat and somebody there had this really interesting way of doing exactly what you're describing where he visualizes this like lightning

Starting point is 00:44:20 cable going from his, instead of unplugging it from his brain and plugging into his heart and listening to that into what you're saying. Yeah, it's just funny how that works. I think one of the main hacks to understand about how we human, relate to each other is how much we are picking up unconsciously a thousand different cues that we're sending out without even knowing that we are. And that's why speaking from that place makes such a difference. And so, yes, it can be helpful to think about your tone of voice and all that kind of and your gestures and all of that kind of stuff. But I would start with what's actually there, like the substance. And again, this is a good example of why introverts are so well.

Starting point is 00:45:11 valuable is the, I feel like it's probably easier to do that to be kind of talking from your heart and be authentic. This tip you shared of speaking early, I think, is really interesting. It connects to, this is going to sound crazy and weird, maybe. There's this whole pickup artist world of just like, I forget what the book was called, where they wrote about mystery and this whole, like, the art of picking up women. And one of the tricks that they share with guy, and I did not do this. This is just an interesting story, is if you're trying to, like, talk to someone in a bar,

Starting point is 00:45:46 you should talk to them in the first five seconds of you seeing them and being thinking you should talk to them. Because once you keep thinking about it too much, you'll never do it. It gets super scary. You know, it only gets scarier. I think that's true in meetings. You just sit there and keep ruminating. Oh, my God, am I going to say something? And the more you do it early, the easier at all is.

Starting point is 00:46:03 Oh, my gosh. It's so, so true. And it's so funny to apply it to that setting, but it makes total sense. you're actually you reminded me of how I first discovered this technique you know it dates all the way back to you I used to be a lawyer strangely like many years ago and in law school the way the classes were conducted it was like you'd be sitting in this gigantic amphitheater of people and the professor would just call on you cold and you had to answer all the questions yeah exactly oh my god and so so my strategy to avoid that which is I did from like the first day was I would be one of the first people to raise my hands when they would ask for volunteers. And I figured, okay, if I've volunteered, there's 150 other people sitting here. They're going to call on those people. They're not going to call on me who just volunteered. So that was my strategy. And not only did it work in that way, but then I started to realize,

Starting point is 00:47:03 especially if you're one of the first people who's ever spoken, like the professor kept referring back to things I had said, not because it was the smartest comment that had been made all year long, but just because it was one of the first ones. And so it sticks in the mind. So it's just one of those phenomena of human relations. And you also probably just like, you're participating more and you end up being more successful in the class and get better grades. Yes. Yeah. So virtuous cycle again. Man, I love it. Okay. What about from the perspective of a manager or a founder that has introverts working in the company, what advice can you share to make the most of these folks that you probably might be not noticing or not paying attention to?

Starting point is 00:47:44 First of all, I would think about how you're running your meetings. So there's a statistic from the Kellogg School that in your typical meeting, you have three people doing 70% of the talking. But it's your company and you want to make sure that you're actually hearing from everyone because you want to hear the best ideas. So I would do things. like, you know, techniques like go around the room and make sure you're hearing from everybody. Or if you have a specific person who you know to be thoughtful and reticent, you might say to that

Starting point is 00:48:19 person before the meeting, you know, hey, Bob, I know that you have a lot of great thoughts about such and such topic. Can I look to you to talk about that during the meeting? And now Bob is much more likely to like step up and talk about it. But also, for many interesting, introverts, we like to be able to process our thoughts before we articulate them. So you've now given Bob advance notice and he has more time to do the processing before speaking. Another technique you could use is like a kind of brainwriting where you, let's say, everybody has to offer their thoughts on how to solve a problem. Have people write their ideas out on post-its and then you collect all the post-its and then you present them.

Starting point is 00:49:08 And now all the ideas are out there without anyone having had to jockey for time or space. It's just the ideas on their own. Your introverts are going to appreciate the following thing more, but it will benefit everybody to make sure that you're giving everybody space to put their head down and work in a state of flow without being interrupted. Like, that's huge for human productivity, but the introverts need it especially. So if you can create times of the day, depending on your workflow, where there are no meetings or whatever, or people can work from home on such and such a day or time, that can go a long way.

Starting point is 00:49:50 Oh, man, that super resonates in what I did when I had a regular job is I, well, first of all, we had no meeting Wednesdays, which is like the day everyone got all the work done. Yeah. And then the other thing that I worked, and I'll have this post, I'll link to you of productivity tricks in one of them as around deep work. And I created this block on Wednesdays and Friday mornings for two hours that it was just worked deep work time. And I labeled it, do not book time over this or I will slap you. And it worked. And I did not get in trouble. Be careful. Yeah. And I'm sure people appreciated the humor of it too. Yeah. Yeah. That's genius. HR. I never said anything. Okay, so just to reflect back the tips you shared, which are awesome, is one is just like actually asks everyone in the meeting, just like, hey, do you have anything you want to add? Make sure everyone has a chance at least if they don't want to volunteer. Two is give people, like if someone you think is going to have good ideas, just tell them ahead of time, hey, I just want to make sure you share this idea or you have a chance to say something, please say something in the meeting. Three is give people a chance to kind of write ahead of time or in the meeting just like create space for people just to write their ideas down, not. have to like jockey for raising their hand and sharing something and then everyone hands in their their work and then um force create deep work time you have people a chance to get into flow awesome okay i want to go in a totally different direction i know you're i don't know if it's your

Starting point is 00:51:15 second book or third book is for kids kids that are introverts i'm i have a kid he's one and a half fish. It's pretty clear to me he's an introvert. He likes, we just, we went up birthday party. He just like went into the other room and played with the toys. Yeah. He often just wants to like observe for a while and then he starts to feel comfortable. Yep. Do you have any advice for raising an introverted kid? Yeah. I mean, we could talk about this for the whole entire time very easily. Okay. This will be the next podcast. Yeah, but what are some, what are some thoughts? Yeah, but I'll just give you like a few top line thoughts. Perfect. The first thing I always, say is to understand that introverted and or shy children, have we taken a second to distinguish

Starting point is 00:52:01 between introversion and shyness? No, let's do that. Okay. This applies to adults as well as kids, but introversion is more about just like a preference to be in less over-stimulating environments, you know, more mellow environments, like less sound, less noise, fewer people, just fewer stimuli coming at you. And shyness is more about the fear of social judgment. So it's like a, it's a kind of over-exaggerated response to any situation where you're being judged. Could be new people at a party, could be the public speaking, could be an interview. And you might have situation A, evaluative situation A that doesn't bother you and evaluative situation B that really does.

Starting point is 00:52:49 Because people are complicated. So anyway, for children, whether they're shy, i.e. fearful of judgment, or whether they're introverted, i.e., I prefer to play in a mellower way. The key for both of those kids is to understand that they will tend to have a longer runway that they travel down before they take off and fly. and this is this applies to a gazillion parenting situation so like when it comes time to introduce your child

Starting point is 00:53:26 to school it is very likely from what you've just described to me you said it's a boy right yeah yeah okay so it's very likely that he is going to be a little bit slow to warm up at the beginning and it might be

Starting point is 00:53:42 that all the other kids get dropped off at the door of the school, but your child might really want you to walk him all the way down the stairs to his classroom. And that's okay. It's not okay for it to stay that way forever. But remember when we were talking about desensitization with public speaking, where you do things step by step by step, so you might walk him to the classroom a few times and then say, okay, we're going to do a game. And tomorrow, I'm going to walk you all. almost all the way, but the last two steps you're going to do by yourself. And then you celebrate it with whatever little treat. And then the next day, maybe it's not two steps, maybe it's five

Starting point is 00:54:25 steps. And like little by little by little, you are moving away and he's going down that runway. And eventually he will get to the point where he doesn't even remember that he needed you to walk him into school. And this is going to happen again and again when he's learning to swim. A lot of quieter children are uncomfortable with the water at the beginning. And you might feel as a parent like, what did I do wrong? Because I see all these other kids who are just jumping in the water and, and my kid's not doing that. So first of all, give yourself a break, because this is natural. And second, you know, you apply the same technique. You maybe get to the pool on a day when there aren't a lot of people around. So it's not overstimulating, quiet. And, and maybe,

Starting point is 00:55:14 be the goal for that day as you're asking your child, do you think you can put your big toe in the water? And he puts his big toe in and yay, yay, yay, we're celebrating. And then you little by little go from there. And again, eventually you will not be able to tell the difference between that kid and the one who jumped in right away. Longer runway. It's okay. Okay, so that was my first piece of advice. My second is self-confidence, comes from mastery and not the other way around. So we tend to think, you know, we live in a culture that's like really big on self-confidence. So we see self-confidence as the key to everything else. But in fact, if you master a skill, you become self-confident as a result of that mastery.

Starting point is 00:56:07 And this is true for all children. It's especially true for quieter children. You know, introduce them to a lot of expectations. activities and figure out which are the ones they really truly love and gravitate you and excel in. And those will pay off great dividends in their, not just in their mastery, but in their self-confidence. The third thing I would say is when they're feeling shy or uncomfortable, just talk about it openly in a light way. It's not a big deal. Share your own experiences. is, you know, let's say a child's afraid to go to a birthday party.

Starting point is 00:56:44 You know, you could say, oh, yeah, I used to feel that way too. It's really common. Here's what I would do when I felt that way. And you know what? I still feel that way sometimes. And you could say, so what I like to do is I like to get to the party early before everybody else is there because then I feel more comfortable. So why don't we get there early today?

Starting point is 00:57:02 I do actually love to do that. Well, there you go. Yeah, and a lot of kids do best when, when they're, one of the first people to arrive because then they feel like it's not overwhelming and they own the space. But the key is that you're you're showing them that you understand and they're cool with who they are and it just becomes no big deal as opposed to, you know, many kids quickly absorb from their society, the idea that there's something wrong with their shyness. So you're trying to undo that sense of shame and stigma and make it no big deal. That is really helpful. I forgot to ask you this question at the beginning

Starting point is 00:57:38 but I'm really curious. What percentage of people are introverts, whatever you label that along the spectrum? I've seen different studies. Some say it's 30%, some say it's 50%. It's always higher than you think. It's basically one out of every two or three people. So it's a lot.

Starting point is 00:57:57 So it feels like one of the core pieces of advice you're sharing is if you're an introvert, you don't need to become an extrovert. It's become more of who you are, and you can be really successful in that. Yeah, I'm just going to add to that while also making sure that you acquire the skills that you need. Like, I'm not saying never step outside your comfort zone or, you know, don't acquire those skills if they're crucial to what you're doing, like public speaking, the way we were talking about. But bottom line, the goal is to use those skills to be who you are.

Starting point is 00:58:32 So, and that was an awesome point. So it's not just like, okay, I don't need to be a good, I don't need to go out of my comfort zone ever. I'm going to be the amazing CEO just being exactly what I'm. Your advice is not. You actually do need to build some stuff and build some of these skills. Though I do want to say, like, on the other hand, if the job you have taken on or the career you've taken on is one that requires you to wake up every morning feeling dread

Starting point is 00:58:57 because you're going to be so far out of your comfort zone for so much of the day and so much of the week, is it really worth it in that case? I mean, you basically want a life where you're waking up, looking forward to what you're doing. Yes, with obstacles along the way, but more or less, you should feel like you're in the right zone. So the advice there is fine work that connects with your introvertedness as much as you can. With your temperament. Yeah. Same for extroverts.

Starting point is 00:59:26 Yeah. Like, I've heard from extroverts who will say, you know, I work in this company of like very introverted engineers and everybody's super quiet and heads down and I'm going crazy. so that's not right for you either. Yeah, and it's not like you can't, like, what this makes me think about is we did a test of all the PMs that are being BOL. I was there, like a personality test, and it's interesting how it was all over the map

Starting point is 00:59:48 and there wasn't like you need to be this like energetic, charismatic person. You could be just a thoughtful, quieter person and those people are just as successful. Absolutely. A big part of your advice is figure out who you are and become more of that, like connect to your introvertedness and you can be very successful there. Is there any advice just like what to do to do that?

Starting point is 01:00:10 To like what should you be looking at? Which parts of you should you be like, okay, this is where I'm strong and I should be leaning into. And this is how I can become the best, most successful people in spite of my introvertedness. I mean, I might start by just asking like what do you like to do? How do you like to spend your time? What are you most interested in? again, that question of if you had no social or professional obligations, how would you be spending your time? Basically, you just need a really honest conversation with yourself of what you like to do.

Starting point is 01:00:46 I love that it comes back to your kind of heuristics at the beginning of just, if you had a free weekend, how would you spend that weekend? Yeah. And then would you do like a pie chart of the activities to give you like, here's how I want to generally spend my time. like 20% social, 40% on my own. Is that like one way to think about it? You know, that's funny because like you were mentioning Tim Ferriss before. And I remember when I was talking to him on his podcast, like he kept asking me like, okay, do you have a system for this and a system for that?

Starting point is 01:01:17 And he's like, you know, I'm not a systems person the way you are. And like I think his systems are super helpful. I just tend to have a different approach, like a more, just intuition-based approach or something, just like what feels right and what feels wrong? And if you ask yourself that simple question, I think you know. That's actually, like that alone is a,

Starting point is 01:01:43 it connects to something I often try to do, just asking yourself, does this feel right or does this feel wrong? Some advice I recently heard along these lines, another way to ask this question is, what is my body saying? Yes. I was invited to do this talk, And I was just like, I guess it could be good for the newsletter if I do this thing.

Starting point is 01:02:01 Oh. And like I actually used your piece of it. The trick you used if this were tomorrow, would I be excited? Yeah. I was like, no, definitely not. And then she actually is like, here's another trick at you. Because I told her that. That's how I decided to do.

Starting point is 01:02:15 She's like, yeah, just like, what is my body saying? And I was like, no, definitely not. And my body does not. Like, the idea of it not happening made me feel really relieved. Yeah, that's, that tells you so much. And I guess what I would add to that. is also you need to distinguish between like the goal and what it would take to get to the goal. Okay, so I'm thinking of young women who I talked to after she gave a successful TED talk and had a successful book.

Starting point is 01:02:47 And she was trying to figure out like what the next step should be on the coattails of these successes. And what she said in the course of our conversation is, like, she knew that she could build a whole company around her ideas that were now out in the world. But she knew from experience that she had had working at other companies that she wouldn't actually be happy having to, like, wake up and run a team every day. And so she knew whatever I do, it's not going to be based on like team management. like that that needs to not be part of the picture. And I thought that was a really useful way to look at it because it wasn't, I think she would have loved to actually have the company and, you know, put products out into the world that the company would have made. But she wouldn't have enjoyed her life to get to that goal. And so that question of do I want to wake up in the morning doing what it takes to reach that goal is a really big one. There's two things that brings up for me. One is I had the co-founder of Hupp's Spot on the podcast, which is like a a billion-dollar business at this point.

Starting point is 01:03:58 And he had a conversation with this co-founder early on. He told him, I never want to manage anybody. And even up to today, he has never managed any. There's nobody under him at the company. And he's still the co-founder, still operating on his own. Wow. That's fascinating that he could pull that off. Yeah, he's a fascinating guy.

Starting point is 01:04:16 We're going to link to that episode. It's so interesting. The other is I made a role for my seat. with this new life along those lines that you just shared, which is I never want to have full-time employees. Yes. Me too. I did the exact same thing with my substack. No, none. Great. Yeah. Yeah. And I do have different people who I work with. Yeah, same. And including, like, my colleague Renee, and I have been working together for like 10, 11, 12 years, amazingly. But it's like a very loose type of working structure. And that's what works for us. That's exactly how I operate.

Starting point is 01:04:49 And it's like the major downside is people sometimes leave because they're not full-time and there's like, oh, here's a cool full-time role that they found. But I find people want this. So they like, they prefer it be a part-time, flexible thing, not this is their life. And this is all they're doing. I think a lot of people like that too. It's such a, but like there's always this temptation. Okay, what if one person and they just deal so much for me?

Starting point is 01:05:11 I think it also limits just how much work you take on, which is really healthy. It's so funny because when I started my substack, I talked to, um, one of my now colleagues. And I remember saying to him, you know, if I, if in a few months I wake up and my day consists of going to meetings, then I'm going to know the whole thing. I went down the wrong path. And this was a mistake. So we have to build it in a way where it's not about that at all.

Starting point is 01:05:38 Along those lines, I have a rule of no meetings before 3 p.m. To reduce the number of meetings I have except for podcast episodes that we do sometimes in the mornings. And that helps me there. Yeah. Funny enough, when I started the newsletter and it started doing well, I was like, okay, this is awesome. What a life. Just write a newsletter once a week and make a living. Inside this rule, I'll never do a podcast. I'll never do a course. I'll never do a conference. I'll never do a book. And I've actually crumbled and done almost all those things. The only thing left is a book. That's really funny. And so those things that you ended up doing, have you enjoyed them or were your initial instincts correct? The podcast, I'm very happy I did it. It's extremely cool to have the dynamic of the newsletter on the podcast, energy-wise.

Starting point is 01:06:24 It is, it takes, like, energy. I have to, like, pull in the extrovertedness side of me to. I get it. Yeah. Versus, like, I'm just going to sit in the cafe and work on the newsletter. So, yeah, it's better. It's mostly great, but I do have to, like, I have to, like, get up to do it, you know, like, hide myself up into it. I so, so understand.

Starting point is 01:06:45 And then the chorus I decided not to do it. It was like too much of that. So I'm not doing that. The conference was awesome. Probably will do it again. And the book still have resisted the book. Wouldn't the book be more along the lines of what you like doing? Like you can sit in your cafe.

Starting point is 01:06:59 You think, you think. The problem is it just would be too much work. It's just like the load of, as you know, as you know. I do. I think it took you seven years to write your first book is what I. Oh, yeah. And then, yeah. And then, well, my second book was the one for kids.

Starting point is 01:07:13 That didn't take quite as long. But then my third book, Bitter Sweet, was the same thing. I took like seven years. And I just sent in a book proposal to my agent like two days ago for another book, which will undoubtedly take five or six or seven years. And I have wondered how I'm going to do it together with the substack. But I don't know. I feel very impassioned about both. So I think it's fine.

Starting point is 01:07:35 Yeah. You have to really want it. Part of the reason I don't want to do a book is all the talks I'd have to do to promote it after. I so understand I think that's part of the reason I take as long as I do you to write them because I'm like dreading the promotional period so I'm just putting it off

Starting point is 01:07:52 Oh man well I'm impressed You're overcome that I mean for me my My dream always was to be a writer So that was like the primary primary thing So I'll overcome anything for that dream I get that Okay Susan

Starting point is 01:08:10 We've covered everything I've wanted to cover. Is there anything else that you think might be helpful to leave listeners with that, especially introverts, that are trying to be successful, feel better about their way of the world? There is

Starting point is 01:08:26 a phrase, an aphorism, a saying from Gandhi, who is very shy and very introverted, by the way. Like, extremely. His autobiography, very fascinating, he talks a lot about this. He was such a shy kid. He would run home from school after class because he didn't want to have to talk to anybody. He was really like that his whole life. He was just, he was one of

Starting point is 01:08:51 these people I was talking about who, you know, had a very deep conviction and then attracted other people who shared that deep conviction. And so he said, in a gentle way, you can shake the world. And I deeply believe this to be true. That's, that's an excellent role model to think about And going back to your other exercise of Gandhi as an introvert. We did not know that. That's awesome. Susan, with that, we reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready?

Starting point is 01:09:20 I'm ready. First question. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? So I was talking earlier about the psychologist Mihali, Cheeksendt Mejai. He famously wrote a book about flow. It's literally called flow. And flow is the state of mind you get into you and you're like totally engaged in an activity and you're completely absorbed by it. And you're feeling neither bored nor anxious.

Starting point is 01:09:50 You're just in it. And the book just like describes all the research on the state and what it is. And it completely changed my life. So I recommend that one all the time. And also the power of myth by Joseph Campbell. who, you know, was just a great mythologist and completely fascinating. And... Here's journey.

Starting point is 01:10:14 Here's journey. Yeah, and he talked about the need to participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world, which I really believe in. Which I know your third book was about. Yeah, that's right. Bittersweet. Bittersweet. Maybe you can't find that on Amazon or your local retailers.

Starting point is 01:10:33 The flowbook, can you say his last name again? I think nobody actually knows how to pronounce it, and I love that you say it's so comfortably. Yeah, because my agent taught me how it's, you go cheek, like your cheek. Oh my God, this is great. Sent me high. So that's more or less how you pronounce it. Cheek sent me high. Oh my God.

Starting point is 01:10:51 What a win for a tip right there. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed? I never have anything recent. But so my husband and kids and I just watched the Sopranos recently. I had never seen it before and we loved it. And I also just recently saw the talented Mr. Ripley, which I know it's really old, but so, so good.

Starting point is 01:11:18 Wow, I love how old these are. I know, I know. But like, I basically, like, anything that you see where there's just something dazzling happening in it, like Jude Law's performance in the talented Mr. Ripley is pure indazzlement, if that's a word. this connects to advice I often hear, which is don't read books that are either read books that are just like very new or like 10 years or older. I think that's the advice. Like don't read books that are sort of, because you want to only read things that have been that have survived and people continue to come back to quiet. I think is definitely an example of that.

Starting point is 01:11:52 Thank you. Yeah, I do think there's something about that like that. Yeah. If it's survived that long, it's for a reason. Yeah. Oh. Oh. Okay.

Starting point is 01:12:03 Okay, can I say something that will not be lightning roundish? Sure. Okay. Because what you just made me think of is there's this, I guess it's organization or institute. It's called the Tugboat Institute, I think is the official name. And anyway, it's basically it's four founders of companies who are not interested in starting their company and then making a quick exit three years later. These are people who are trying to build something evergreen and something built to last. And so this is an organization for the founders who have this mentality.

Starting point is 01:12:41 And I've talked to the head of this organization. I'm actually going to be speaking there June or July. And he told me that they have tons of introverts in this group of CEOs. Like I do think there's something about that mentality of seeking the timeless and the evergreen that is. one of those underappreciated strengths. That's awesome. That sounds like a sweet place to be. Yeah. Hopefully not too many extroverts get in there and they're just like, what the hell is going on here?

Starting point is 01:13:12 I don't want to be here. Okay. I'm going to keep going with the lightning round. Yeah. Let's see. Okay. Is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love, whether it could be an app, could be something you bought, physical, something laying around the house? I will say the art of roasted vegetables. Like, cool. Because, yeah, I've started just roasting my vegetables with tons of spices of all kinds, and it's such a revelation.

Starting point is 01:13:39 And it's not a gadget, you just roast them in a cooking, cooking cheek sort of thing. Yeah, I just like toss them with olive oil and maybe some lemon juice and almond slices or curry or whatever I feel like doing. And it's like candy, so good. Interesting. So that, and this is just like an easy way to eat healthy and taste good. Yep. What a life chip. I just read this book, Good Energy. I don't know if you've heard of this.

Starting point is 01:14:03 It's about what foods give you good energy and what foods are bad energy. Interesting. And it's based on metabolic health and blood sugar and which ones spike you and help you. And you're eating good energy food. Yes. Take away. Okay. Two more questions.

Starting point is 01:14:19 Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find really useful in work or in life, maybe share with friends and family? Yeah. I mean, I will give the one that was the dedication to you and the inspiration for Bitter'sweet. This is a quote from Leonard Cohn, who said, there's a crack in everything. That's where the light gets in. I love that. I want to make a big poster out of all these mottoes someday. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:14:47 Yeah, you really should. You probably have an amazing ones collected. So many. Oh, man. Final question. You have a very active substack. I'm very impressed with how often you publish. It's very hard.

Starting point is 01:14:59 Where can people find it and just what should people know about the substack that you started? Oh, well, it's called thequietlife.net. So that's where you can find it. And it's basically a place for people who want to live in the realm of the quiet and thoughtful and sensitive and bittersweet. I've kind of been exploring that realm for 20 years and this is a place to be with other people who are in that realm also. And so, you know, some of the time I'm posting things about tips along the lines of what we've been talking about for this podcast.

Starting point is 01:15:37 And sometimes it's more, I don't know, just like sharing art and poetry and things. So like tomorrow I'm posting an exclusive excerpt from Sahil-Bloom's new book, The Five Types of Wealth, about how much time do you have remaining with your loved ones? and how are you spending that time? So I would say it's like dedicated to how to live a good life from the perspective of the quiet and the thoughtful and sensitive. Sounds like a wonderful place, quarter of the internet. How do people find it just so we can link to them? We'll link to it in the show notes too.

Starting point is 01:16:19 Yeah, so thequietlife.net. Or I guess if you go to substack and just look up my name, you could probably find it. But yeah, it's become a huge labor of love because it's a way, like I'm able to write to people who have been reading my stuff for years, but now we have a dialogue and a community. And I think people really feel like having a place to go that is a very specific wavelength that you can't find elsewhere can be something special. And I know I feel that as the person writing into it. Okay. Final question then is how can listeners be useful to you? I usually ask how do people find you online?

Starting point is 01:17:01 We just talked about that. So I'm skipping that question. How can listeners be useful to you? I don't know. I guess I would say, you know, the substack that I'm doing is my baby and my labor of love. So if you want to partake of it, I would love to have you there. Awesome. Susan, thank you so much for being here.

Starting point is 01:17:20 Thank you so much for having me. So nice to talk to you. So nice. I really enjoyed it. Just introverts connection. Yes, exactly. Okay, bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening.

Starting point is 01:17:32 If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's Podcast.com. See you in the next episode.

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth - The hidden power of introverts: How to thrive without changing who you are | Susan Cain (author of "Quiet")

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