Let's Be Honest with Kristin Cavallari - How to Effectively Co-Parent with a Narcissist

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Dr. Sherrie Campbell is back to shed light on this challenging subject. She offers wisdom into not giving them what they want. Plus, tips for navigating this time, how to take your power back, & what to do if they're lying to the kids. We also discuss empowering our kids, how to get the frustration out, what to expect when you get into a new relationship, and a general topic of helping our kids navigate this season of life.A word from our sponsors:Hero Bread - Don't give up being a breadhead. Go to hero.co and use code HONEST to get 10% off your order at checkoutTruly - To find Truly Hard Seltzer near you, go to trulyhardseltzer.com/locations. Keep it light. Truly Hard Seltzer Beverage Company. Boston, Massachusetts. Please drink responsibly. Farmer's Dog - Get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at TheFarmersDog.com/honest. PLUS, you get free shipping! Bon Charge - Go to boncharge.com and use code HONEST at checkout to save 15%Starz Mary & George - Watch Mary & George, only on STARZ and the STARZ app. Produced by Dear Media.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. This is Let's Be Honest with Kristen Cavallari, a podcast all about getting real and open on everything from sex, relationships, reality TV, wellness, family, and so much more. And just a fair warning, there will probably be some oversharing. Welcome in to Let's Be Honest. I'm your host, Kristen Cavallari, and I am back with fan favorite Dr. Sherry Campbell. Hi. Hi. So good to see you again. It's so good to see you too. That last show was incredible. The reach out to me and to you was... It was incredible. So special. It was special. And that's why I knew I had to have you back. I mean, you touched so many people's

lives, which I knew was going to happen. And you know, it's interesting because after the response, I was like, okay, we've got to have her back on. But so many people specifically requested to have a podcast about co-parenting with a narcissist. And so I just thought, who better to have that with than you? So I'm really excited to dive into that because it is quite honestly, probably one of the hardest things someone will ever have to deal with in their life. Ever. Ever. Ever. It touches every emotional wound that you've got. It touches the wounding of the person that you married and why you married that person. And now you're like, great. Now my kids are going to go through what I'm trying to avoid for myself alone. Exactly. And you know, when you divorce a narcissist, you're like, you know, thank God. But now when you have children with one, the last thing

you want to do is talk to this person every day. But if your children are still really little, you're probably going to have to. You are going to have to. The hardest thing that I think is that you've got to keep it unemotional. Okay, yeah. And make, I had to learn in my divorce to make it about the business of my daughter. Okay. Logistics, pickups, drop-offs, but a narcissist does not like that. And they don't really even respect the stipulation that's given from the courts. Yeah. And the family court system is not equipped to deal with severely character disordered parents without putting your kids through hell and psychological testing and all the things. And your kids don't know what's bad or not bad at that time.

So they can see you reacting over something that you should validly be upset about. Right. But then they think you're the one who's upset with their other parent and they don't understand. And it's hard for everybody because you're not friends with this narcissist. No, no. So they're just keep it flat. Keep it to business. Okay. So what is your advice for someone dealing with this? So it is facts only. Yes. Completely remove all emotion. Yeah. What else? Because they will try to push all of your buttons. I mean, we all know that. All they want from you is a reaction, so you can't give it to them, right?

Right. And then I also think, and this is kind of unfortunate, but it's true. I think you have to document everything. When you are dealing with this type of behavior, I even think something as small as, hey, can you take the kids on the 21st instead of the 22nd? Sure. Screenshot it, put it in a folder. Stuff that simple because they will say one thing and do another. Oh, yeah. But then obviously bigger stuff with harassment, threatening, all of that, put it in a folder so it's really easy to access when you need to.

If you don't document every single thing, then you really have no power. It's sad that you have to do that. But the only thing that scares any type of narcissism is if you're going to expose them. Right. So documenting is a form of exposure, but that's valid. Like in my divorce, my ex would be passive aggressive and just show up tremendously late to the point that my babysitters were not able to be on time for their jobs. Yeah. And is that control? Oh, completely. Like that specifically. It's to have that control. Yes. And to get me furious at

pick up or drop off in front of my child. Right. Right. Again, to push your buttons to make it seem like you're the crazy one in front of the kids. And my daughter certainly had times of seeing me be so frustrated. I'm a very on-time person. I value my time. I value the time of others. He'd be 45 minutes late. Wow. And then I'm dealing with the complaints from the babysitter because they don't feel safe to talk to him. No. I documented this for four years. And in California, as we all know what traffic is like, I got a stipulation that if he was 15 minutes late to drop her off, I could leave. And if he was 15 minutes late to pick her up, he didn't take her. Oh, wow. So you were able to get that. How long did it take you to be able to get that?

Three years. Yeah, it takes a while. Three years. But he didn't think I would actually go through with it. And I did. Yeah. And you know what he did? Created a huge scene so that I would look like the bad person in front of my kids. In the divorce, they're more committed to you in hate than they were ever committed to you in love. And that is exactly it. So I have a question. So depending on who leaves who in the marriage, whether you leave the narcissist or the narcissist leaves you, is that a factor in how they then treat you afterwards? Or are narcissists all sort of the same and they just want to make your life a living hell? They want to make your life a living hell.

But if you've wounded their ego... By leaving them. By leaving them and you've left because they don't typically leave. And why is that? They love having control over somebody but having other things on the side. Okay.

But they don't want to lose what they've got because they feel a sense of power over what they've already established. Okay. And they're naive enough to believe that they're entitled to it. Right. And you've stayed. Right. You've stayed for such a long amount of time that they actually don't believe that you'll ever go. So now they get the best of both worlds. Yeah. Right. So when you leave them, it does two things. It exposes their dysfunction. They're worried that they'll be exposed to the kids and then they retaliate. And now their mission in life is to make your life as difficult as possible with what you treasure most and what you value the most is your children. And so they do, they create these smear campaigns

against you. And sometimes it is with the kids. Sometimes it's with the kids and the community, your old friends, it's anyone who will listen. So I've always wondered, and I think the kids are a separate thing. And I want to talk about that specifically, but just in a general sense, do they create these smear campaigns because you know the real them? And so there's this vulnerability and this fear that you'll expose them so they want to trash you before you're able to? Or what is that really about? I call it jumping in front of the truth. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So it's like a blockade. Yeah. The problem is, is that their smear campaign is based in drama and they can feign emotion really well, but they're angry. Yeah.

They're angry and then they get as many people involved and they tell straight up lies about you. Completely. Complete lies. And they want to gather a team so that you will just bend. Really what they want is they don't want you to divorce. They want to derail your ability and your bravery to divorce them. They're so offended that you ever found the reasoning in your mind to leave. Right.

They ignored all the signs that you were on your way out because it's unbelievable to them. Even though there were 500 conversations, they've never thought. Yeah, because they believe they're above reproach. So they just don't really believe that you're going to do it. It's so true. And it's so fascinating to me, no matter how many conversations I've had about it, how truly all of the behaviors are the same for all of them. They are the same.

They are. Male or female. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly.

It does not matter. I mean, I've watched a female narcissist in my office that was so insane. I mean, I didn't treat her for long because they don't stay in therapy. No, because they don't see it. But she manipulated the court system. She manipulated attorneys. I've never seen anything like it in my life, and she got everything she wanted. She did because they're con artists. They do have this way of fooling everybody. They get away with everything. And now your deal is unhook. Yeah. Let them. Okay. Because it's not

about winning, but they are so masterful at getting you to want to win. Right. Because it's your kids. Right. Right. And you want to protect your kids. Yeah. And there's so much that goes on with alienation and they won't put it in the DSM-5 quite yet. It's more of a syndrome than a disorder. But I know that kids hands down know who the bad parent is and who the good parent is. I agree. Sadly, kids will align with the parent that they're the most afraid of. Oh, wow. Almost always hands down.

And they don't side with the parent who's fighting for their lives to keep the kids safe. Because going against the parent who they're afraid of is scary. Scary. They're afraid of being totally abandoned. And I'll tell you that covertly, they will talk to our children in a way that if you love your other parent, then that means you don't love me. Exactly. And then it builds them. And then they feel afraid that this parent's going to leave them or abandon them. And so they will fight for the parent who's hurting them over the parent who's the good parent. And that can derail years of a relationship for some parents. That's what's so

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Just tell the truth. What happened in my dynamic is my daughter would come and say, Daddy said this and Daddy said this about you to these people. And I was like, so how did that make you feel? I stood up for you, Mommy. I'm like, that's so good. I appreciate that. And I said, well, let's straighten that out because we both know that that's not true. But also when she would say, daddy's like this, I wouldn't say he's your dad. He's doing his best.

He loves you. That's what happened to me growing up. Okay. Oh, but it's your mom. Right. You know, she didn't mean that or whatever. So no one validated to me that up. Okay. Oh, but it's your mom. Right. You know, she didn't mean that or whatever. So no one validated to me that what I was dealing with was insane. So what with my daughter, I'll say you are right. You're right. Your dad is that way. Yeah. No, I'm not starting those conversations with my daughter. Right. And I think that's the big difference. That's the difference. If they're coming to you about it, then you can be honest. It's very different than you just out of nowhere saying, oh, you know, your dad's kind of crazy or whatever it is. I think that's alienation. Right. This is why they can't prove anything. Right. Okay. Because who said what first? Right. But when your kids get told something

that's scary or hurtful about you, they will tell you. Oh, yeah. And the more that they're told, don't tell your mom this or your dad this, they're even more compelled to tell you. So you do have to keep their secrets. You don't want to confront your ex on what was said. Well, because I've found there's no point, right? Because you will go around and around, nothing will be solved. And then your kids get punished. Exactly. And so my parents and my dad was a narcissist. We said it on the last episode and my dad would lie to me about my mom. But the thing that my mom never did was she never defended herself. And that caused years of me being angry at her. And so I, I agree with you. I think if your kids come to you, you have to defend yourself. And I

don't agree with bashing your ex, but I do think you have to be very, you have to defend yourself. And I don't agree with bashing your ex, but I do think you have to be very, you have to tell the truth about what's going on. And also defending yourself is mutually exclusive to another person and whoever your ex is. Right, right, exactly. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like you don't want to enable your ex by not defending your truth. And if you want your kids to know their truth and to learn to be in contact with what the truth is, you have to tell the truth. Yeah, exactly. If you give everyone the benefit of the doubt, let's say, and you think this is going to help your kids because you don't want to create a bad relationship with your kids through dishonesty. Right. If your kid's gut is

saying, I didn't like this one. Mommy or daddy said this. And they do this all the time. And you go, oh, it's okay. Yeah. You know, it's not okay. Yeah. And their body is telling them. So you want them to learn what their body's saying. And you need to say, that's wrong. Okay. Right. And I'm really sorry that happened to you. How can I help you? Yeah. Right. How can I help you language something to your dad or mom that says that this makes you uncomfortable? And you can give them skills like that. Okay. Right. And they will do it. Yeah. They're not going to be successful. And I warn, I would warn your kids of that.

You know, your parent, your other parent has a hard time listening and believing, but I still think it's important that you share what you feel because you're important. Okay. That's really good advice. Really good advice. Yeah. Because you want to validate your kids and you don't want them to grow up questioning their reality.

Well, you don't want them to grow up trusting just anybody. Yeah. You know, I did not have any guidance growing up. You know, I have nine marriages between two parents. Yeah. Okay. So I had one step family after another and blending and they all had kids and, you know, it was really, really hard. And so I became very people pleasing because that seemed the only best way through because the truth, that didn't work. And I became out of touch where I was never allowed to be connected to what was being felt in my body. And so I have raised my daughter through a divorce to stay connected to her body and what her body feels for her, feels to her. They will

even derail if, you know, some people set up, you have to have a FaceTime with the other parent. I really would try not to do that. Those parents want to be very invasive to your time and they'll find every way to not allow your FaceTime time on their time. Isn't it the truth? Oh, sorry. It just didn't work out. Missed your call. Missed your call. Oops. And it's like scheduled in the stipulation, right? So that puts the kids in this weird obligatory space, you know, where now they have to not hurt who's ever parent they're not with while they're with the other parent. It's like that's their time with him. This is their time with you. If you get really invasive, it's only hard on the kids. That's what these narcissists don't understand. The only people you're hurting are the kids.

They don't care about the kids though. At all. And they didn't have kids to care about kids. Yeah. Yeah. The kids in a divorce are a tool. They are. If they can't control you in marriage, they're going to control you through your kids in a divorce. I think that's the most heartbreaking part. And call it love. Right. Exactly. Call it parenting. Exactly. That's the part that just absolutely breaks my heart. It is heartbreaking. So this harassment that people will experience, is there light at the end of the tunnel? When will it end? Is it when the kids are older

and they no longer have that control? Is it when they have a new victim, someone else that they can, you know, quote unquote, pick on? Like, when does it ever end? Okay, it doesn't end. Great. Not the answer I was looking for.

It decreases. Okay, okay, okay. So the light at the end of the tunnel is you can't unsperm and egg this problem. So it doesn't end, but it greatly decreases. So once they're out of high school and they're mobile and they can drive, and they have a mind of their own and there's no more stipulation. This sets these children free. Okay. The only then way that they're in your life, because fiscally stuff ends then too. Right. Correct. Right. The younger they are,

the more control they have because there's just so many more moving parts with kids. Well, and kids are easier to manipulate. Yeah, absolutely. They haven't gone through identity development, right? They're not there yet. So when it ends fiscally and custodial time-wise, it ends. Then it's big events like certain sports events or graduation or, you know, like a marriage. Yeah.

But at that point, they're not really interested in you. But what won't stop is the back talk about you behind their backs for the rest of your life because they really are so angry that you had the nerve, the audacity to leave that they are obsessed now with your new life and they don't like that you have it. I've even seen that with my own parents. I mean, my parents got a divorce when I was in third grade and my dad still will rip my mom apart. And it's like, what are you? Why? What is the point? Narcissists never get over a wound to the ego. They do not. When you're wounded and you're healthy, you want to get over it. Right. You want to get through it. You. You want to get through it.

You want to get to a place where you've had transformation. You've had some level of like resolve, right? And you feel more whole. Yeah. Narcissists have no interest. You are enemy number one if you bruise their ego. Yep, forever. Because they literally can't believe you'd have the audacity to leave them.

Yeah, it's so true. I know. God. Do you find, and I could be totally off base and you can totally tell me if I am, but do you find that drugs and alcohol go hand in hand with narcissists? Very often. Yeah. Okay. They're angry people. Yeah. Okay. And it's kind of like a chronic comfort seeking. Yeah. I also see though, in survivors of toxic family. Oh, okay. Right. But I would say that, you know, when your ego is big and you get attracted to addiction, you're a bigger version of who you are, a little bit intoxicated.

But do I think that they love reality? No. I think they can be addicted to money. I think they can be addicted to gambling. They can be addicted to power, sex, drugs, weed, alcohol, whatever it is. That makes sense. So, what if your co-parent that you're dealing with is doing drugs and alcohol around the kids? What can someone do in that situation? Document. Yeah, right. Just go back to documenting. See, the problem is that the family court's the most uncivil. It's very sad that criminal court

is more civil than divorce court. I agree. Okay? Parents are meaner to each other than prison inmates. It's so true. And they will create frivolous lawsuits. Oh, God. They will all of a sudden have a stipulation agreed to want to change it just to keep you in court so the court system is not going to help if your child is actually in danger yeah or whatever they're modeling over there right so all you can do is document your kids are like little reporters yeah They don't know that they are. But you don't document in front of them.

You don't do whatever. If they directly ask you for help, then I tried to talk with my ex like she doesn't want to come. Oh, wow. She feels completely neglected in your care. How was that received? Oh, just not. I'm an idiot, you know. And so I couldn't help her, but she saw me try. Okay. Right. Right. She asked me, I tried. Yep. And at that point, I would just say, we have to do this until we're 14. Yeah. So what does that conversation look like

if your kid doesn't want to go to your ex's house, how do you empower them? Because I do think you have to empower kids rather than, because obviously if that situation is so horrible at your ex's house and you're worried about it, you don't want to put that on your kids. So how do you empower them rather than letting them know that you're worried about them over there? You have to wait for their approach on the conversation. And that is the hardest part because they'll come home and my daughter literally needed 24 hours of what I would call detox time. Yes. She wasn't her normal self coming back. And then I was so excited to see her that I would want her time. But I learned like, okay, she's been poisoned. So she's got to go

download that. And then I always gave her that space. And I, I, that would be an advice I'd give to parents is I know you're so excited when you get your kids back and you're worried. So you want to know, like, are you okay? You have to really refrain from asking, you know, directly give them 24 hours, let them detox, and they usually start talking. If you really want your kids to talk, also don't go face to face. Oh, okay. It's very intimidating. Yeah. Throw a ball. Right. An activity. Take a walk, go on a bike. They tend to open up a little more when it's not eye to eye. Okay. They're little. Yeah. No, that's really good. That's really like where to go have adult conversation, right? So listen, don't let

things go over your head. Sometimes they might throw out a hint that you're not ready for and it goes by you. When they ask for help, help them in front of them. Okay. Yeah. I used to write text because speaking with my ex was like jumping into some sort of a WWE verbal arsenal that I was like never going to win. Like I'm really intelligent, but I'm not going to out argue a narcissist. Let me just humble myself. My PhD means nothing. Not when you're dealing with a narcissist like that. But I also think also having everything in writing is also good. So I would let her help me craft the text. Okay. To kind of keep her mind like what I wanted to represent her experience.

I didn't want to project my experience onto hers and color her experience because I don't want to get in trouble. Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. Family law is not a nice place, so I'm going to be clean. But I would allow her to help craft the email. I like that. Okay. And we never got the response back that we wanted. Of course. But I do feel like she learned to find her voice in this way and she was speaking her truth. Okay. I like that a lot. Finding your voice and being able to speak your truth. I think that is a really great takeaway. They will not speak it to them in their custody. They're scared. Which I understand that. Well, you know, I mean, I was like that with my dad. I could never speak up to my dad ever. No. I think in my whole life, I'm 37. I only have a handful of times. And it was when I was an adult.

So they do. They instill this fear in you that you feel like you can't speak up. And you know what the fear is? The sickness of that fear is that you're parenting your parent. Oh, my God. You are a child minding the mood and self-worth of your insecure, narcissistic parent. Right. That's exactly it. What a responsibility for a tiny human to do that. Right. It's insane. It really is. It's so unfair to the kids. I was so placed in that position growing up, both sides. Yeah. It was my job to make my parents feel like good parents through multiple divorces. Right. No, no, it's okay. My gosh. Not affecting me. Yeah, no, I'm fine. Literally. So obviously dealing with a narcissistic co-parent will test you in every way imaginable. So it is really important to take

care of yourself mentally. What are some ways that people can get out that frustration in a healthy way? Because I do think it is so important to get it out instead of just holding all of that in. Move your body. Okay. Yeah. And for women, we really need to talk. We release stress through sharing and through talking. Get a therapist, get a divorce coach. They actually have those now. Oh, I didn't know that. Divorce liaisons. So they just kind of like, it's almost like therapy in a way, but specifically for divorce. Divorcing a narcissist. Oh, wow. Yeah, there's actually people now that will step in and help coach you on what to tell your attorney. Now you have to think about this. Now there's money that way. There's retainers for attorneys.

Every phone calls a billion dollars. You know what I'm saying? So this is where it's hard. But if you're scared and you're powerless and you're feeling like you're just really getting. People, I mean, it's very easy to feel like that in this situation. It is because they are fantastic at manipulating the court system. Yes. And they go in with the intention to do so. Yeah, yeah. We're going in to solve a problem. Right. Right. As

innocent as that is. I wouldn't even know how to manipulate the court system. I know. So they have a skill set. They're good litigators. Yeah. So when they're dealing with attorneys and judges, I was litigated out of every conversation. I would be so headspun after any conversation with my ex. I know. Like pulling my hair out. I know. I know. Like shaking and just like bouncing after, you know. So our kids aren't equipped for that. And I think that they're going to tell you, they're not going to tell your ex, but you have to take care of yourself. There's nothing you can do to change that. I always looked at it like I need to turn the noise down. Okay, yeah. And I would often not answer any messages that would come my way.

Okay. from you because when the kids come back, you're now busy trying to recover your kids from whatever experience they just went through. And you can see a change in their posture, their mood, they're quiet, they're inside their bodies. They don't want to talk, especially boys. Boys aren't talkers. You know, they really need to move their bodies. So when it was my time, because that's another thing, they don't really want you to be single. No. They don't really want you to have time for your relationship. Yeah. So they just decided I'm going to text you 20,000 times. Yes. Yes. Okay. So, right. So what happens when you do get into a new relationship? what is their behavior then? They're just going to constantly badger you. Constantly. And especially on your time. Right. Right. Like you have date night. Yeah. They're blowing you up about 500 things. Blowing you up. And it's an emergency.

Everything is an emergency. It's an emergency. Like it's 9-1-1. Literally. Right. So now your new person is sitting there and your new person is just quiet and watching you milk the ex. And, you know, that's a hard thing to confront. Yeah, it is. Because you don't want to be like, don't talk to the other parent of your child. I know. But at the same time, it's date night. I know. Can we have some boundaries? It's our weekend. Can we have some boundaries? I know. Why now?? Now your person is parenting their ex. Right. Exactly.

You manage your parenting on your time. Maybe she or he could manage their parenting on their time. Imagine. I know. What a crazy concept. But there's an emergency. No, always an emergency or like showing up at the house unexpectedly. You're like, excuse me, what?

My current boyfriend, his ex is a special one and she is so invasive and she'll be like, I was in a tragic, this is the wording, a tragic accident and I'm trembling. Oh God. And it was like a fender bender. Fender bender. Yeah. I cracked open my whole skull. I could see brain matter. No stitches.

Send me a photo. Yeah, nothing. No stitches. A little Botox bruise. No, literally nothing. You just had Botox. So it's like there's this need that they can't stand it

if someone else is getting your attention. Now, they did not value you in the relationship at all. At all. At all. So you like left. Right. Because that makes sense. I'm not loved. Yeah. He doesn't love me. Yeah. Isn't faithful to me. I'm leaving. I'm going to leave. One plus one is two. Yeah. And they're aghast. Yeah. And they want to ruin, actually ruin your life. Yeah. I mean, it truly, that's not an exaggeration. I know. They will do everything to ruin your life. And how could or should the new partner

deal with the narcissist? Because unfortunately, when kids are little, you might be at sporting events together. You might, you will see each other. And so obviously, depending on how the narcissist is with them, how do you recommend the new partner behaves? The more jealous and emotionally violent or other kind of violent they may be, if they are going to be around you as the outside person that's not genetically connected to the kids, you don't go. Okay. Oh, if it's that bad. If it's that bad. Yeah. Yeah. And this is what we're talking about. We're not talking about the friendly type. Right. Yeah. So I, I, in my partner's life have, have not met their mother and it's been eight years. Oh, wow. Because she's already so spun up about me and what I do for work. And I'm often probably defining her. So

I think that I love his boys so much. And I've explained to them, it's not good for you if I come. Now I go when she's not there. Also, that's their mother. And I will always respect that that is their mother. I want to be a mentor, a friend, a sports fanatic with them. I'm unwell at their basketball games. I'm unwell. I love it. Yeah. I try to be that, but I'm more like the LSU basketball coach who's insane. Like, that's me. I get it. I totally understand why some parents are like that now. I get it, yeah. So I get so excited. So I do feel like my heart, you know, and Step Families is probably a whole other show, but my heart with these boys is to be respectful of what's going to keep them at peace more than anything else. Now, they have reached to me in critical

times. And I have deflected those over to my partner. Okay. Yeah. Because it's just not my kids. And I wish they were, but they're not. And I do respect her. And I do respect that that is their mother. As a human being, do I respect her? I don't't at all but i can't change that for his boys i can just love them i can hear them i do not advise them okay i let that be up to my partner to advise his kids yeah or i'll ask his permission would you be okay if i advise them and he's that same way with my daughter so my ex has been my daughter chose at 14 no more wow and in california you can do that so that's another thing with your kids the brain does well if it knows there's an end date so they will often say how long do i have to do this yeah so i would say to her well honey we we have to

legally do it until 14 okay all right All right. So then in her head, she's like, okay, I could do that, mom. I'm 10. So I could do that. Yeah. Let's chat about Truly. I know you guys know the brand. You've seen it. You've tried them. You love them just like I do. And if there's one thing my friends and I love on the weekend, it's an ice cold hard seltzer sometimes. But let's get real. The usual packs and flavors are just so dull. There's not a lot of variety. That's why I'm so excited that Truly is shaking things up with their new party pack. Truly believes that life can be more refreshing when we can be real, let loose,

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more healthy, happy, and full years together. Get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at thefarmersdog.com slash honest. Plus you get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash honest. Go to thefarmersdog.com slash honest and get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. I asked you this last time, but I'm going to ask it again because I was kind of blown away, and I think it's important for people to hear. Do narcissists know what they're doing? Absolutely, they know. So they know they are hurting people. They know. So let's go back to this, okay? Let's talk about the three faces of projection. I just did a video on this. The first face is they project all of their abusive, negative qualities onto you.

Yes. You have the beagle. Yes. You're the abuser. You're the parent alienator. Yep. And then they, second face is they project our good qualities and our good parenting onto them.

Oh my God. I am like, yes, that's bullshit. Where people get stuck though is in the third phase of projection, which is reverse projection, where we project our good qualities onto our narcissist. Explain that to me. We want to believe that they are who we thought they are. Oh, okay, okay. So we give them,

that's why we stayed for as many years as we did in the marriage. Right, right. Okay, so our children are going to reverse project. Oh. They want, and they have to believe that their mommy and daddy are good people. You're right.

Whoa. So they will make up a story that they are the bad child because the parent is always good yeah and they project their good fantasy qualities and they keep waiting for the parent to be good wow so these narcissistic parents know this it makes me sick honestly they do not feel for anyone but themselves but they feel very deeply for themselves. Oh, yes, they do. So they don't care how they treated you during the marriage, but they care very deeply if

you leave them. Right. And then that's the only thing they focus on. That's correct. So if they're wise enough to be able to litigate you out of every conversation, gaslight, project, deflect, all of those things, then they are certainly bright enough to know what they're doing to people and that those things hurt their victim. Yeah. They do not care if they hurt their kids. If that hurting the kids makes the kids more loyal.

Right. Oh, my God. I mean, it really, it just, it kills me. They know. Yeah, they do. How could they not know? And then, so they have no remorse as well. Zero. Zero. And this is what allows them to be more and more of what they are and not care. Yeah. Is that if they don't feel anything for what they've done,

and they actually feel rewarded at the hurting of another person, including their children, then why would they change that? Yeah. Yeah. God. Like we would love to believe that they have like a handicap. Right. Right. Which is what I used to think. Yeah. Like, oh, they're just handicapped. Like, you know, they're a wheelchair. They're handicapped. They don't know what they're doing. You know, they need help. Yeah. Yeah. They know exactly what they're doing. And for us that feel that they don't know, we're being fooled. Right, right.

Because then in a way, it's like, oh, you have empathy towards them. Where after talking to you the first time, then I was like, oh, no, now I have so much anger towards these narcissists. As you should. As you should. As everybody should. Anger is the most honest. Yeah. I'm not talking rage. No, yeah, no. But just. The most honest. It's the emotion that

loves you the most. Yeah. And I unpack anger huge in my new book because I was punished for being angry. Oh, right. Okay. So our kids, if they get angry at the narcissist. Yeah. They will hot call you if they're on their time what an out-of-control kid you have, and they blame the kid. Yeah, right. But we don't know what came first. Right. So then what do we do? Respect your parent. Right. Well, let's ask first, why are you so angry? What happened? Yeah. You know, so they absolutely know what they're doing. They live to do this every day. Yeah.

And I have found the only time you'll ever get an apology, and it's a bullshit apology, but it's when they want something else from you. 100%. But that's it. You'll never get an apology in any other situation. No, no, no. Well, we should also talk about conditional kindness.

Okay. And the dosing of that. Oh, okay. Okay. Explain that. Intermittent doses of kindness have to be there for abuse to work. Who would stay if it was only abuse? No one. Right. That'd be negative reinforcement. Right. Okay. And that's the confusing part because you're like,

they can be so great. They can be so nice. So now here goes a little child. They've been love bombed. Yeah. And they do this. See? They're getting better. Yeah. They've changed. Because you have to think about a little kid. They don't have past, present, future consciousness. That doesn't develop until like 10,

where they recognize there is a yesterday and a tomorrow. And, you know, that's why when you're young and you're waiting for Christmas, it feels like it's never going to get here. So you start opening stuff up. I did like in the secret. So when that parent love bombs them after and they tend to love bomb in the cycle of violence. Right. So right after they've brutalized this kid. Yeah. And part of the love bombing is don't go tell your other parent what I just did because look what I just did to fix it. Right. Which is just, it's all so confusing for a kid. Now, do I think narcissists have good control of their emotions? No. They love to externalize the drama yeah okay so then they have to do something after that

to make that drama reasonable okay and justifiable right so then they just start talking have you ever noticed that narcissist they they they it's like they don't edit so you know why? They keep talking until it sounds good to them. Whoa. Yeah. So at first it's not sounding good. Okay. But your brain's already tapping out because the verbal arsenal coming your way. Well, this is one of their strategies. If they talk your ear off, you'll tap out and they'll get what they want. Holy shit. I mean, I am just always blown away that, yeah, no, that's exactly how it always goes. You get a lecture. Yeah. Yeah. And then they're projecting all of their bad qualities onto you.

And then we are insane enough to try and go back at that because that's fun. You just get eaten alive, right? Banging your head against the wall. I feel that when they put all of that in there, you know, it like turns into a document type of thing. And it takes you, you write so much, turns into a document. Yes. Oh my God. Exactly. And you're like, oh God. And you're overwhelmed and your blood pressure is already raising. I would see my ex's name on my phone and my blood pressure would raise because I'd be like, oh God. I had to change someone's name on my phone without naming names to a like buckle up, fasten your seatbelt. I put Satan in mine. You're so sweet. I put Satan. But it was like, oh, like fucking brace yourself.

Because they're scary. Yeah. It's always something. What happens is, you know, honestly, what their big trick is, is they want to overwhelm you. Yes. Because no one really has a great skill set for overwhelm because you're overwhelmed in the moment. You know, we're not like, let my reasoning come in and just let me un-overwhelm. You're there. You're like hot already. So the more that you cannot respond to those types of texts,

because those are the ones that they turn into an emergency. Okay, right. The dramatic languaging. I'm trembling. Yes. And I think like not responding immediately. I think that's probably a good tip. No reaction. Right. You don't have to respond immediately when they text you. Or at all. Or at all. Or at all. You do not have to respond to everything that they send you. You do not. Now, when you don't, they're going to threaten to take you to court. Yeah, which.

Okay, really? Yeah. Okay. I used to believe it. And then until I was like, oh, that again. It's so frequent. Yeah. It's their way to try and scare you per our stipulation.

This is how they all communicate. Yeah, they love to throw in the. Seriously? Yeah. Okay. And I think at first it is really scary because any legal anything is scary and stressful. And so and at first it's easy to get wrapped up in that and then play their little game. But then you realize, no, this is all bullshit. All they're doing is trying to scare me.

I also think, too, you have to get to a place of letting go because otherwise you will drive yourself fucking crazy worrying about your kids at your ex's house. That's right. You have to get to a place of letting go because otherwise you will drive yourself fucking crazy worrying about your kids at your ex's house. That's right. You have to just empower them, do the best that you can do, be the best mom or dad that you can be, control what you can control, and then you have to let it go. I tell my patients this, stay in your lane and look up the let them theory. Okay. What is that? If they're going to be an asshole, let them. Okay. Let them.

Because you can't do anything about it. What's going to happen? We can't control their reactions, right? And they react the most heavily to truth and reality. Yes. They like all the drama, the texting and all the things. They love the toxic, okay? So they always create toxic soup.

But I feel like when you, if you're a car and you're driving and they're a car and they're driving and your kids are in their car, you can't unman your car, get in their car and fight for the wheel. This one's still moving. Okay. And this one's driving. They're both going to crash. Yeah.

Okay. Your kids, unfortunately, are going to be under their care. You have to accept that. Yeah. Yeah. The law says so. Yeah. So you don't have to like it and, but you have to accept it. Whatever you're doing in your time, self-care, do your best to follow whatever rules that you have, right? But you cannot control them whatsoever. And your kids will start speaking. The more you create space for your kids to feel without badgering them about their feelings, because that can be another thing we make a mistake on. They come home, we've been worried sick. What happened? Right. Are you okay? Did anything bad happen? Right.

Putting that on them. That's right. Yeah. Okay. Now, if over a few days they're off and nothing's been said, you can be like, hey, buddy, what's up? Yeah. You've been off. Now you can associate it with that weekend. Okay. You've been off for a few days. I just want to be sure there isn't anything that you need to talk about.

They also need to know that their secrets are safe with you. Yeah. So here's another hard thing. You have to keep secrets that you are like, this is horrific. What do I do? I'm not helping my kid. You know, so as they get older and they recognize that their secrets are safe with you, you have to be someone they can trust.

Have to be. Because if what you say, you say it to that parent and they get punished when they go back, now they trust no one. Yeah, right. And they need you. Bad. Yeah. Because if what you say, you say it to that parent and they get punished when they go back. Yep. Now they trust no one. Yeah. Right. And they need you. Bad. Yeah. Document. Exactly. When you have that compulsion to talk and to confront, document. Document. Document everything. Every little thing. It does work. It does. It does work. And I do think for kids, it's important to be the stable one, be consistent, for them to trust you, love them, like just be what you can be. All you have to do is just really love your kids.

Yeah. You know, if you're consistent and you're stable, see if also if they're able to make you totally unstable when you have your custodial time, they never get- They're winning. But they never get away from that parent. Well, right. Exactly. It scares the shit out of your kids when they watch that scary parent harm their parents. Yes. And if you're not handling it well, then they lose trust in you. Yeah. Yeah. And then they feel hopeless. No one can handle this parent. I have to go by myself. I know. And that's a lot for a kid. It's a lot. So you do have to have an ability to regulate your worry, your fear and your emotions

around your kids. And you just have to focus on what's in your car, what's in your lane, what's in your home. How can you just make this a good place to be without pressured around emotions? Because you know what happens when they go over to the other house is they get interviewed. Yo, yo, yeah. It's an interview. What'd you do with your mom this weekend? Who was there? Oh, she's already putting you around someone else. This is what's going on. And they have all these judgments. Now your kids are confused. They're constantly trying to make you seem like the unsafe parent. They will lie. You're not paying your child support.

Document. Document everything. I can't tell you how many parents I've worked with that I'm like, show them all of your ledgers. Okay, right. Yeah. I also think it's important, too, to remember you're playing the long game. I really believe in my soul the kids will figure it out eventually. They always do. Long term,

the child always knows who the bad parent is. You cannot be offended or betrayed by children who are only colluding with a mean person to save their lives. Don't forget how many years you colluded with that same person as an adult. Right. Right. Oh, my God. I know. If they have to people please over there and collude with lies being told about you to be safe, okay, let them. Exactly. If it's going to save their emotional life in that world, let them. Yeah. Because they will figure it out. They're not betraying you. They're saving themselves. Yeah. There's a big difference between that. That is such a good point. That really is. This is all such good

information. I mean, this is why I just love you so much. Well, you can have me back whenever you want, Kristen. I mean, I literally, I'm going to. But also before I let you go, I want to hear about your new book because you've written five books, right? And you just had a new one. Five books in six years. Damn. I told my publisher literally today, Kristen, they're like, we want a workbook. We want you to do a course. I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, I'm tired. It's a lot of work. I'm tired. And also this is like traumatic stuff. It's very traumatic. I am working on a workbook. I will be doing a course, but they're allowing me to do it at my pace. My publisher really values me and I do love New Harbinger. But yes, my new book is Adult Survivors of Emotionally Abusive Parents. And I got a comment today that I read it to Scott

on the way down, but she's like, I love that your book doesn't make parents evil. It's a sensitive topic. I don't like harsh judgment. This book is a phenomenal book for the do's and don'ts of parenting. Okay. Yeah. But the effects of what it is like as a child to not feel loved. Yeah. Yeah. And to feel so unwanted, you know, in their lives. And abuse is not an accident. You know, my TED Talk is out.

And that was the dream of a lifetime. That was the most horrific, exhilarating thing I've ever done in my life. It's incredible. But I got a comment today that said, well, parents don't know what they're doing. If they were raised, they're just doing the best they can. And I thought, well, I should respond. What do you say to that? I said, there's no excuse for abuse. Yeah. Yeah. Abusing someone is not an accident. It is a choice. They know what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah. We really, because we're really sweethearted people, want to believe that no one in their right mind could do that. Well, they're not in their right mind. Well, right. Exactly. That's not a right mind. Yeah. Okay. So I think that between

the TED Talk, they dropped within five days of each other, which was not planned. But the TED Talk also, it's just defining what a toxic parent is. We tend to just be attracted to what was familiar. Yeah, what we know. Right. We have to grow. Divorcing and setting boundaries on a narcissistic ex is a step of growth. Yeah. Look at the opportunities that you have with your kids to teach them to find their selves, find their guts. I love that. Because they're hurting in their guts. Yeah. And if we just play devil's advocate, like, well, you know your dad, you just have to let stuff like that go. Why? Right. Why? We didn't let it go. We divorced him. But we want our kids to just let it go because what we want life to be easier for us, it's never going to be. We need to give them a language that they can feel and say their truth.

Yeah, I love that so much. And to teach them like, I don't care if someone agrees or disagrees. If that is your truth, you stick to it. Right. Stand your solid ground. I think what I love about my book is if you haven't had kids yet, this is a book you should read. Absolutely. I do differentiate healthy parenting from toxic parenting all throughout the book. This is what a toxic parent family does. This is what a healthy

parent family does. That is when you should be reading this stuff is before you have kids so that then you can go into it with all the right tools. Yeah. What I think all kids need to know when we're talking about divorcing, right, and them having to maintain the self-worth of the parent, children do not cause bad parents. How is that possible? Yeah. Yeah. No, they do not. No, they do not. Children are just the easiest to sweep under the carpet and blame. Yeah. No, they do not. No, they do not. Children are just the easiest to sweep under the carpet and blame. Yeah. Also, if you confront your ex on something your kid says, they'll say your kid's a liar. Oh, I know. I know. Which is, it just blows my mind. How can you, as a parent, I can't imagine. He's exaggerating. They're exaggerating. They're lying. That never happened. I know. And any parent in their right mind is like,

how could anyone ever do that? But they scapegoat their child as a liar. Yeah, it's so fucked up. How powerless does that make your child? I know. Because then that child's going to be afraid that you're going to think they're a liar. Or what if you believe your ex? I know.

Why would a kid make it up? I know. For what? It's beyond. What kind of attention are they really going to get from that? I know. I know. For what? It's beyond. What kind of attention are they really going to get from that? I know. I know. None. Nothing positive. No. No. Well, Dr. Sherry, I mean, I just, I love you. I love you back. And you help so many people. Thank you, Kristen. I mean, and you know that. But like the response that the last podcast had, it just. It had me

in tears. I know. I felt it too. Wow. Like It's just amazing what you're doing. And so I know everyone appreciates it and I appreciate you. And so thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you, Kristen. I feel so connected to you as well, but it's really special coming down. I love being on your show. Just the more that we can touch people and create a revolution of it's time to tell parents when they need to do better. Exactly. Exactly. Step parents included.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe we do another one. We'll do another one on step families because that's a whole thing. It's a whole other thing. That's a whole bag of wax. You'll be back. You'll be back.

I cannot wait. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You bet, honey. I just love you. I just love you. I just love you. I love you.

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