Let's Be Honest with Kristin Cavallari - Surviving Narcissist Abuse with Dr. Sherrie Campbell

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

I sit down with Dr. Sherrie Campbell to break down all things narcissists: what the word narcissist actually means, how it feels to be the child of one, the differences between being in a romantic relationship with a narcissist vs. having a narcissist parent, getting rid of resentment and bitterness after realizing you're in a relationship with one, setting boundaries with a narcissist, when to cut one out of your life, and why you should be proud to be a survivor of this emotional abuse.A word from our sponsors:Go to SKIMS.com to shop the SKIMS Fits Everybody collection and more perfect-fit essentials. Plus, get free shipping on orders over $75! After you place your order, select "podcast" in the survey, and be sure to select Let's Be Honest in the dropdown menu.Visit ritual.com/BEHONEST to start Ritual or add Synbiotic+ to your subscription today.Control body odor ANYWHERE with @lumedeodorant and get $5 off your starter pack (that's over 40% off) with promo code HONEST at lumedeodorant.com! #lumepod.Save 15% and get free shipping on your Starter Kit when you use code LETSBEHONEST at www.branchbasics.com.Go to HelloFresh.com/letsbehonestfree and use code letsbehonestfree for FREE Breakfast for life! One breakfast item per box while subscription is active.Produced by Dear Media.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. This is Let's Be Honest with Kristen Cavallari, a podcast all about getting real and open on everything from sex, relationships, reality TV, wellness, family, and so much more. And just a fair warning, there will probably be some oversharing. Welcome in to Let's Be Honest, you guys. I am your host, Kristen Cavallari, and today's episode is one that I've really, really been looking forward to. I'm talking to Dr. Campbell, who is a licensed psychologist. She's written multiple books, including her latest called Adult Survivors of Emotionally Abusive Parents, which is out March 1st, and she has the podcast

Cutting Toxic Family Ties. Dr. Campbell, thank you so much for being here. You're so welcome. I couldn't wait to come. I love how we met. Me too. And thanks, Alex Cooper. I know. I was going to say that, you know, you work with all different types of trauma. But when I discovered you, it was on Call Her Daddy. And you were talking about surviving a narcissistic parent and everything you said really resonated with me. My dad is a narcissist. And so hearing your story really made me feel seen. And so I just feel like you have this power to positively impact so many people's lives. So you being here, it really means a lot. This conversation is one

that I've been most looking forward to since I launched the podcast. First, I want to have you describe what a narcissist is because I feel like the word is thrown around a lot. And unless you have real experience with one, I don't think you fully understand it. So what is a narcissist? So narcissists, they have lots of different flavors, actually. And I think what pop psychology has done

is it's made narcissism one way in that they're self-centered, they're showboaty, they're whatever. That's one way to be a narcissist, but they're unavailable emotionally. They lack empathy. There's no loyalty. Because if you lack empathy,

then you can't be loyal to someone because you don't care to be. Yeah. And how can you have a connection? Yeah. And anything, they're never wrong. Yeah. They're always the victim. They tend to be pathological liars and manipulators, and that will be on a scale. Yeah. Right. And they're disturbingly immature psychologically and selfish. Yeah. And I think this big misconception is that, you know, if you don't really understand it, you think a narcissist just has this overinflated ego.

Really, when you boil it down, they're actually some of the most insecure people on the planet. They are the most insecure. Yeah. I get this question a lot. Do they even care? Yes. about themselves. So they don't care how they affect you, but they care greatly about your reaction to their abuse of you. And so when you're not allowed to have a reaction that counters them, They have to win. And when it's a parent, our society is so programmed to believe that all parents love, adore, and respect their children. But we hold strangers to higher standards of treatment of children than parents. Yeah, it's so true. Your mom was

the narcissist in your family, but you also had major issues with your dad. So tell me about your childhood and what that was like. So my mom is extremely histrionic, which is something that in my world means very dramatic. And it has a lot of narcissism to her. She has some borderline personality traits and she won't let go. So she'll sort of rage in her own way, but then kind of feel like you could leave. And then she's, so I was head spun all the time by her, but she is sadistic and she would do it in a way that was so colored that I would be like, did anyone else just see that book? Cause I, okay. Yeah. And then people would do this. You're crazy. She's your mom. She didn't mean it that way. Right.

You know, I know it sounded bad, but she's your mom. So she was harder for me because she was more covertly narcissistic. If you are, the character disorders are the cluster B personality disorders. And they're all on a continuum. But if you're diagnosably one, you have elements of all five. Right. Okay. And that's what I think people miss. They miss that there's histrionic personality disorder, passive aggressive personality disorder. Passive aggression is nearly impossible to confront. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry that you got your feelings hurt. Right. You know, everything was

just spun my way. So the I'm sorry might have been in this sentence, but I was still somehow wrong. You'd get fake admissions like, I know I'm not a good mom, but I'm doing my best. So you can't move. My dad was more overtly narcissistic and violent. Okay. Neither of my parents can regulate their emotion. They both have to be at the center of attention. So where my dad would create physical crises and become violent or verbally violent, my mom would threaten suicide or she'd create major issues around time, food, illnesses, injuries, if something wasn't working for her to get her way. Right. I feel like I've always said they're more comfortable in the shit. Like they always want to

create chaos. I love the shit. What is that about? I think that they love power and they're so masterful at manipulating. Yeah. And then they're never wrong and they're always the victim. Right. And so they love watching us try. Okay. Yeah. The more we try, the more we go to earn the love, the more that we want their love, the more shit we take. Yeah. So when people say, you need to really try harder with your family, Sherry. I took that advice for a while. And I'm like, every time I do that, I'm like dismembered. What am I trying for? To go get my ass kicked and my self-esteem lowered again. And now my dignity is in that ring and my self-respect is in that ring and I have no boundaries. And I think boundaries are totally misunderstood in our culture.

Oh, I agree. I completely agree. I actually didn't even realize that my dad was a narcissist until I was an adult. All I knew growing up was that I didn't want to be around him. He always made me feel like I wasn't good enough. But then the flip side of that is sometimes he would put me on this pedestal and talk me up. Now, as an adult looking back, I'm like, oh, it was when it benefited you and made you look good. But I didn't realize that. It wasn't until I was in a romantic relationship and then I got out of it that it started to click for me and I was able to start to understand it and process it and work through it. So how did you figure out that your parents were narcissists and what did

that journey look like to figuring it out? I knew my family was fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one's married four times, one's five. So I knew it wasn't right. But I had a sibling who was an extraordinary athlete. We both were, but he went pro in his sport. And because he was seemingly doing well, then it, then, and I wasn't, then that meant that I was just a bad egg. Right. So I think that my mother hates women. Oh, wow. And-

Because it's like a jealousy thing? Yeah. And that was weird for me. How could your own mother be jealous of you? That was bizarre for me. That has taken me years. Oh, that's hard. Yeah.

Having my daughter and then feeling uncomfortable with her around my parents started to really sort of rattle me like there is a more wrong here than I wanted to look at. It was always there. I mean, I was in therapy at 16. And you knew you were able to like put that narcissistic label on it early on like that? Back in my day, because I'm 52. So she looked damn good. There was not really that kind of labeling. We're in a much more labeled society.

And in some ways, I think it's great because you know your location. Like, oh, this is that. Yes. I had a cancer and couldn't name it exactly so I couldn't make it like she's this and I'm not yep it came down to I needed to change to make her a better mother right and other children cause good or bad parents right how is that possible when they're decades older? Right. That makes no sense. Yeah, because I feel like once I could put a label on it, it helped me because it could,

then I could sort of understand behaviors that I couldn't wrap my head around. You could research. Yes. So I had an illness that had no diagnosis. Exactly. So I could only then even more worse think it was me. Exactly. So it took me a long time because I would say it's only been in the last 10 years that any narcissism, so to speak, really the character disorders. Right. Right. Made it clear to me what I had gone through. Yeah.

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It was also an Olympic hopeful figure skater. So I had the lighter you are, the faster you spin going in my mind. I never thought I was necessarily fat, but fat grams back in that day was like the fad. So I learned to control, like if I was a good girl and I had no fat grams, then I was a good girl. Wow. And then if I went out of my food zone, so I stole her power. Right. to make me good or bad. Wow. So I did weird things. Like she would feed me and I'd have napkins in my lap and I'd take my food out and I'd be like, I'm puking her. Wow.

So fascinating. So it got caught on. I grew up in a very small town in Colorado because I was living on a jar of honey every week. Oh my gosh. I didn't know. I was 16, 15. I didn't know that when you starve. Oh my gosh. I didn't know. I was 16, 15. I didn't know that when you starve, you crave sugar. I didn't know that either, actually. I'm like eating honey. You just wanted honey. Wow. And if I wanted salt for electrolytes, which I

didn't know either, I would lick potato chips and not eat the food. Wow. How much did you weigh this time? 82. Wow. You were tiny. I was emaciated. Yeah. So I used to go check my bones in the mirror before a gym class that I had. And I grew up in Colorado, so it was very snowy. So I'd put long underwear under the pants. So they called her and told her that they thought I was unwell. She says to me, so she said to me when I got home, you have no idea how lucky you are that you can get fat. I can eat whatever I want and I stay so tiny and you don't know how hard it is

for me that I can't gain weight. I mean, it's like you can't even make sense of it. Wow. And how do you handle that? Oh, she shattered me. Yeah. She shattered me. So I ended up in therapy. Okay. And I was ditching school and I was being bad. Yeah. I was scapegoated. Yep. No one gave a shit about me, so I didn't give a shit about me. Yeah. And I ended up in therapy and that woman said to me that I was not the problem. Wow. That I was a symptom of all the trauma. Wow. That must have been such a relief. Such a relief. Yeah. I just didn't know how to take it from her office and make it real in my life. And I've never done that. So their ties have been cut. But, and my father was violent, inconsistent. Jekyll and Hyde, when he was fun,

he was great. But he was in like cultish, weird, like he would say I was his lover in other lifetimes when I was very young. Wow. And so I'm like, I don't even know what that is. Yeah. But he was like living with a lightning bolt. Like I knew it would strike, but I never knew when. So you always feel like you're walking on eggshells. I mean, there's no safety there whatsoever, which is what every kid needs. Growing up, I felt sad, alone, angry, and totally defeated every single day. Narcissists or anyone with a character disorder, they defeat you. You feel defeated. And when you have defeat, then you start to lose this motivation to even want to love

you or want to love that person anymore, then you feel bad about that you don't like your parent. Yes. And you should because now if you don't like your parent, you're this bad kid. Yeah. There's so much guilt associated with it. Do you think that there's similarities between being the child of a narcissist and being in a romantic relationship with one or are they different? They replicate the same abandonment wound and the same inconsistency. So abandonment isn't being left on someone's doorstep. That's one form, but it's the lack of predictability, stability, and moodiness of the people that you call your parents. Right. And moodiness like could be you can't read their mood. They're so emotionally unavailable that you're like, I don't know. I don't ever see joy on this person's face when they see my face. Right. Right. So then you're timid around that person because

you don't know, are you bothering them? Yep. Yeah. You're so careful about what to say, what you do, any little thing can kind of set them off. It's like walking on eggshells. It really is. It is. So when you, that's what you know love to be. Yeah. And that's all you know love to be. Then you search for that as love in the world. And I had to lose myself to find myself when it came to love. Oh, that hits me so hard. That's what I've been working on the last few years. It's nothing truer has ever been said. People ask me a lot how you spot a narcissist. And I think for people who are dating, you know, they want to be able to have, you know, some concrete things that they can say, okay, this is what I need to look out for

before it's too late before you're in a relationship. And, you know, they're the biggest con artists on the planet. So it can be really challenging at first to spot them. Do you have any tips for that? I have incredible advice for that. Okay. The first 18 months of being in love, you cannot tell the difference between a brain high on cocaine, okay, or newly in love.

Yeah, which is scary. In those 18 months, my suggestion is, because what is love bombing? This is another very cliche thing. But my boyfriend loved bombed me in the beginning and he's not a narcissist. Okay, okay. Okay.

What's the difference? Okay, so if they want to go on vacation with you first week and they're talking engagement, we probably have a problem. Yeah. You're the one i can feel it blah blah blah god i know it but really do their actions line up let's say they're saying all the perfect things okay that's great they are word magicians if they are a narcissist yes do they do what they say okay yeah and if they're not you have to have the self-control

with your high on cocaine brain yeah to say this is already inconsistent okay because they're not following the beginning yeah so give yourself 18 months i know that's that's how long it takes to really get to know someone once that wears off you start to see the real person and you start to be more of your real person god i've said six months really 18 months you think to really know yeah i guess you're right if they're really overtly narcissistic christian you're gonna know you're gonna know six months like i've said because i've gone out with guys uh one actually a guy who love bombed the fuck out of me after two dates and thank god he lived here i lived lived in Nashville. I was able to go home and kind of like get my head on straight. What I've noticed though, the guy who love bombed me, because, you know, eventually past relationships come up and,

you know, people will give their color on what happened and whatnot. Guys who only blame their exes for everything, huge red flag because there is zero. Interview her. Yes, exactly. When there's zero accountability, because I don't care what the situation was, we all can walk away from a relationship saying, okay, you know, here's what happened. This is my takeaway, you know, whatever it is. Also, you said earlier, zero empathy. They have zero empathy. Kind of like a psychopath. Psychopath. Well, here's what's interesting too, is that let's say that this narcissist, if you can know anything about them, I would. Before I went out with my boyfriend, I had already stalked him.

Smart, yeah. I want to know who I'm going out with. So you being so well-known, if you know someone's track record, that's something to sort of keep in mind. And I think that we should always have hope in people that they can grow or they can change or whatnot. But there are narcissists that are some of the best, most creative people out there that have words. Oh, gosh. Songs. Yep.

Yep. And they may not live that life in private. Yeah. They may not. And they may be able to fantasize. What I can tell you is that people that are very severely personality disordered love the chase. Yes.

So if they can fantasize about you, they love that they like to idealize. But if they catch you, then they'll start to devalue you. Yes. Then they'll actually discard you. Yep. Then they hoover you, which is like a vacuum. They suck you back in and they go all the way down again, over and over and over. And this is the cycle.

Yes. This is the cycle that they all use. And then after you've been discarded, you're losing dignity and your self-respect. But when you get idealized again, now that feels even better than it would because the loss of your self-worth is greater every time you fall down. Yeah, it's amazing because it is. It's like they'll do something, well, they make you feel amazing, and then they do something horrible, and then they suck you back in. It's like this crazy hold that they can have over you. And it always happens after you're so far in that then

it's like, it's just all so confusing. You don't even realize what's happening. You're living in like a warped mindset because you can't tell what reality is in you. Yes. And the lying coupled with the lying. So then you don't even know what's true and what's not anymore. Confusion like that, that's it. Get out.

I know it. God, but it's so hard to realize when you're in the midst of it. Well, and they're telling you exactly what you want to hear. Yeah, exactly. They are the Machiavellis of sliding their tendrils around, and it burrows in. Yep. Because when they're looking, and they're looking at you in your eyes,

and they're literally giving you authenticity that is famed. Yep. And you want to believe it so badly. And they love the fantasy. And when you're in their fantasy, they probably mean those things. Right. But when they have you, I hate to say this, but it's like a cannibal. Yes.

They fall in love with a person and they want to be so close to that person that they eat them. Yeah. I've never heard anyone describe it like that. Yeah. So at the eating of the human being, now they've lost that person because it didn't make them feel the connection that they're looking for. So what do they do? They go find another one. Exactly. Because they're never going to find that connection, by the way, because they're not capable of it. They're so disconnected from themselves. Exactly. And they will get mad that this open and absorbing person, they want to be like us. Exactly. Yes. And when it doesn't happen by osmosis, they abuse us for it. I've said, it's like they're trying to like suck our energy and like

take our spirit from us. Yes. They're not interested in like the murder of the body. They are interested in the murder of the spirit. Yes. Exactly. It's emotional rape. Yep. And emotional homicide.

Yeah. And that's what they function. It is their fuel. Yeah. And the more wound we get and scared and confused, then the more needy we get, the more we're trying

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And if you think about, you've got kids, I've got kids, I've got a child. So two and five, they're getting very independent, they're testing limits and all that stuff. I was definitely shamed. I had very shaming parents. A look of disgust. I didn't need words. It was enough. Right, right. They call it the narcissistic stare.

Oh, God, do I know that stare. Yeah, and you're like, I'm nothing. Yes. Just minimize. They can cut you down with just that look. Their eyes. Yes. And like you asshole.

Yeah. You're an embarrassment. Yes. So you either come out of that stage which I came out an overcompensating pleaser okay right a lot of people come out more blaming okay because especially the male ego not that this doesn't happen in females but the ego is different and if you were shamed or you had a heavily shaming father, mother during two to five and you were squelched from your independence or humiliated publicly, yelling at

your kids in public, shaming them and things. Humiliating somebody only requires an audience of one. Yeah. Okay. One other person in the room is enough to have it. It's okay because now somebody else knows. Yeah. So if you shame, then shame doesn't go anywhere. Yeah. But what shame will do as an adult is shame will blame. Yes. And if you're blaming, you are not changing. Yeah. Zero accountability. Zero. Can't learn from that. Never wrong. Yeah. I know it. I know what I I've had two major narcissistic relationships in my life, the romantic one I was in and then my dad. And I just finally stopped talking in both of those relationships because there was no point. You go around and around and they never see your side because there's no empathy. Empathy is being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes and they

will never ever see your side. no they they also know that you're correct oh okay so you oh they know i've always wondered that it's an assault to their ego okay so deep down they know they know see i've wondered about people always ask me do they know what they're doing yeah how could they not know that's my thing how could they not know we would love to believe that people don't know when they're hurting someone else if you didn't learn at home you start learning in kindergarten yeah what nice and mean is right this is not hard it's not it's not yeah it's not you know basic stuff yeah it's not it's we're not genius here. Don't hit your friends. You know what I'm saying?

Don't spit on people. They know, but they don't care. They don't care. Because what they live for is your attention and your emotional reaction. Whether it's your parent or whether it's your partner, they live to have that power over you. They're also very performative. Yeah.

So they love to take baited abuse where they've baited and baited and baited. You finally react. This was my mother. And then she'd call me an abuser. Right. Yeah, they turn into gaslighting. I did react. Yeah.

I did react. If the plane's going down, I'm going to react. But I had to learn that in therapy, that that was a normal reaction to an abnormal situation. The gaslighting. I didn't know any other normal. What was my other normal? Yeah.

Yeah. And projecting too. I've learned too, like with the one in my life, anything that he said or accused me of doing, I'm like, well, you're doing it. I finally realized that. The biggest projectors on the planet. You've said with narcissists, there's no way to navigate communication with them because they aren't rational people. They do all they can to deflect the issues off of themselves and onto us. And they do this with

such precision that we end up off our point of contention and confused about who we are and if our feelings are valid. I mean, that's just it. That sums it up so perfectly. They love to take somebody who's really honest, pure to the soul, wants reality, wants connection, wants truth, and fuck with you. Yeah. Yeah. But see, it's interesting for me to hear you say that you do think that they know what they're doing because I've always thought like, you aren't rational. You are so gone that you don't know what you're doing, but you're saying the core of them. That kind of blows my mind. If you like power so much, then you have to be intentional about getting it. If someone is smart enough to gaslight, project, deflect, manipulate, blame, control,

be hypocritical, then these people are plenty smart enough to know when they have hurt their victim. Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. They know. I cut my dad out of my life about two years ago, which has honestly been the best thing I've ever done, really and truly it has. But for someone who hasn't maybe cut someone out of their life, what are some suggestions on how to navigate that relationship? Because trying to set boundaries with a narcissist can make them really angry, so very angry. So what advice do you have for someone

who has to still be in a relationship with a narcissist? To gray rock. Gray rocking is becoming the most boring rock in the pile. Yes. So a lot of just putting the conversation back onto them, saying very little. Give me an example of putting the conversation back onto them. So if you are setting, you want kind of low contact with somebody, right? And they're having a conversation and they start to ask you questions. You just are like, oh, yeah, I did that on Tuesday. Well, what did you do the other week?

See, narcissists so love to be at the center that if you just deflect back onto the conversation that that's them, then they tend to do better. They will catch on to it, though. Again, they know what they're doing. If they stop getting your emotions and your negative reactions from you, then they're going to go, you're acting weird. Yes. They will

push you to stop talking to them and then call you the perpetrator. Exactly. So be the perpetrator. Yeah. I got to a point with my mom, because she calls me a monster. And then I got to a point where I was like, well, if I am the monster, will you leave me alone? Yeah. Because if that's all I have to be to get you to stop abusing me. Yeah. I don't know. Does it seem like such a bad trade off at this point? Like I will. I'll be glad. Give me the suit. at this point. Like, I will be the suit.

I will zip it on. I will be the monster. So what happens is there's no clean way out. There's also no safe way out. No. They will smear you. They will do what they can to harm you. And for decades, if it's your parents, especially,

because they feel an entitlement to you. Yes. They gave you life. Exactly. So now they're entitled to you. Yes. They gave you life. Exactly. So now they're entitled to you. So there's no pretty clean way to do it. But here's my suggestion. However you do it, I was cut off by my family. They cut you off. They cut me off. How did that happen? When I wrote my very first book that I self-published, they all knew about it. My mom helped fund it. Oh. So I was getting my PhD at the time. So I was very poor. Yeah.

And pregnant. And then it was published. And then five months after it was published, on my 42nd birthday, they gang up warfared me. Wow. My sibling, my mother, and my father. Oh, wow. Oh, so you don't talk to your sibling either? No, not since I was me. Wow. My sibling, my mother, and my father. Oh, wow. Oh, so you don't talk to your sibling either. No, not since I was 42. Wow. But the way that our family was is there can only be one star in our family. Oh, yeah.

And I was the loser kid at the time. Right. So he had really cut me off long before. He didn't show up to my PhD graduation. Oh, wow. Like, he didn't show up. I showed up for every orange bowl the guy went to. And I really loved my brother. I think as children, we helped each other in some form.

But he has become like my parents as an adult. And no one would know. Right. Of course not. No one would know. Of course not. But I know. And since that day, it was on my birthday. So in a way, I turned it into my rebirth day. Oh, I love that. I did reconnect with my mother a few months after because I had sort of a tragedy that had happened.

I have no cousins. I have a very small unit. Wow. And it took me three more years with her. I do think, too, something about your mom is harder to lose in some form. I would agree. Than your dad. Not that dads aren't super special and all the things, but moms are.

Moms are really important for us. Really important for us. So it was harder for me with her. And I think, honestly, she's relieved. You think? Wow. Because I think after so much abuse and then I just kept coming back, I think she couldn't stand the version of her that she saw in my innocent face anymore.

Oh, wow. And so I think she cut me off because she followed the wrong white car to a restaurant. I've heard this story. Okay. So if I'm going to get cut off for that, she's been wanting out for a long time. Yeah, that's a good point. So I think, and I've yet to figure out how to put this into words to put it in writing, but I think that my love for her or my want for her was so pure that she couldn't stand herself looking into my face. Yeah. At the sight of who

she really is. And she knew I knew. I think that makes complete sense. And she said to me that day, you hate me. Oh, wow. You hate me. And I said, no, I think you hate me. Wow. She goes, well, you're at the shrink. I guess you're right about everything. Oh, wow. Yeah. Happy birthday. Yeah. Happy birthday. Oh, my gosh. Evil. I know. I know. And that's the thing. It's like, you can't even make sense of it. And I mean, how I cut my dad out of my life was, you know, for years, it was like, God, I don't even want to talk. I don't want to be around him. But I felt so guilty about it. And then something happened with my kids and it crossed the line.

And I was like, you know what? I'm fucking done. And he blamed me for it, like threw everything back in my face. I was just like, what am I doing? Life's done. And he blamed me for it, like threw everything back in my face. I was just like, what am I doing? Life's too short. Kristen, I get it. When I saw my parents around my daughter, my father didn't see her as much. But I just was, I felt this horrible feeling inside. Like I'm letting this unwell person be around my daughter.

Yeah. I know it changes when you have kids. You know, it's like I was always like, I can take it. You know, I can take the abuse I have my whole life. But it's like, when you start now messing with my kids, I'm not doing it. And we shouldn't have taken that abuse. Exactly. So I think there was a part of me in protecting London that was also me protecting little Sherry. Right. Like there was this other aspect of me. I learned to hate the inner child self in me because I was hateable. They hated me, especially in private. Then when I got into this whole thing in the new book that's dropping in March where I have this little Sherry, present day Sherry and future

Sherry. And we have to have like conference calls sometimes. I love this. Right? But I hated her because I felt like she got me. She was bad. Oh, wow. And she made them hate me. Oh, this breaks my heart. So then, as present-day Sherry, I was constantly trying to shut little Sherry up. Right. And she pestered the hell out of me until I broke.

And I realized she's the only one that's ever told me the fucking truth. Yeah. And she pestered me until she destroyed me enough to wake me up. Yeah. And then I had to learn to have this new relationship with the child self. And then I have an idea. I remember I was like, I don't even know what an adult is. Like I was getting a PhD.

I was 27. I'm like, I don't even know like how to adult. And I'm like the youngest person in the PhD by I was 27. I'm like, I don't even know like how to adult. And I'm like the youngest person in the PhD by like 20 years. So I wrote all these words on a mirror, like discerning, responsible, composed, playful, humorous. And I tried to live a word every week to try to become the embodiment of an adult. So that was the birth of, I think, future Sherry. Wow. And she is my persistent pursuit. My boyfriend took me home. I hadn't been home in a long time. And I won't say where I grew up, but a beautiful ski resort. And I felt fine when we were there. I hadn't been back in seven

years. Wow. And this one night we were walking through the little area where we were staying and she used to manage a store there, and it was freezing. So we're like going into a store, warming up, going to another store, warming up, and we popped into her store, and I could smell her breath. Oh, wow. And I was like, oh, my God, and I was like 18, 19, 20. Wow. And so my boyfriend was walking through the store, and he's like, babe, are you okay? And I'm like, I need to just, I just, I just need a minute. Yeah. And so I had a little conference call and I was like, okay, you're okay. Yeah. She's not here. Right. Her

breath is not here. Yeah. And this is complex post-traumatic stress. Right. So I'm going to grab little Sherry who's life fearing. Yeah. We're going to walk through this whole store. We're going to buy a fucking too expensive hat. Oh my God. Yeah. And we're going to leave. I love that. And I didn't tell him at first what, what had gone on. He has a fairly trauma-less life. What's that like? Yeah. I don't know. Not that there was no trauma, but he's had, he's had a, there was a trauma but he's had he's had a there's a lot of love in his life yeah I had a nightmare that night I didn't share it with him because I thought I'm here you left the store and you still didn't say anything wow I might have told him that we

were there and he was like you're okay yeah you know and he's he's come a long way to understand like very little trauma to a lot of trauma right right he's come a long way to understand, so like very little trauma to a lot of trauma. Right, right. He's come a long way in really loving me and understanding how to love me. And no one's put that kind of work in. Oh, that's so sweet. And nor does he make it feel like it's work. Right.

Because I was always made to feel like I was effort that they didn't want. Right. So I was able to take the future me and be like, you know what? You've got this. and you're so evolved and you did so well through that situation. You lost your breath. Yeah.

Who cares? Yeah. You know, that's what happens when you abuse a child. So my child self is always going to be wounded. There's no such thing as healed. I agree. There's no magic ketamine therapy, mushroom therapy. That stuff might soothe some stuff for some people. There's no magic pill.

It's hard work. Yeah. And it's self-love, which is a hard thing to understand when you weren't raised in love. Absolutely. I've done a lot of that work, though, of talking to, you know, little Kristen, and I've done the future Kristen as well and I do think it's pretty powerful though and it can be extremely helpful I set up and I encourage my patients to do this I have a healing room in my house I found an artist who I feel like painted my insides oh wow through color and wow so I have my pain on the back wall because my pain's always behind me. Oh, I like that. Then I got a huge round love sack. Yeah. Like a womb. Oh, wow. Okay. Like femininity. Wow. I grew up having to be so masculine to survive. Yeah. That for me, finding my girl, my inner woman or my feminine energy was very hard because I was so type A, working so hard,

right? So I got a womb and it's like a womb. Wow. And I rest in that and on the side is a picture of a woman holding fireballs coming out of a forest like a badass. Wow. And then another one, a cloud of empathy. And then in front of me is future Sherry. Wow. And it's this woman holding the earth suspended above her hands. So if I'm hurting or I'm doing my podcast or I need to heal, I will go in that room and write in my journal. And I would highly suggest journaling. I know that not everybody feels like a writer, but. Oh, you don't have to be a writer. I have healed through my hands. I agree. And not even typing. No, I think it's like the actual physical form of writing.

Yes. I love writing so much. I think, too, just being able to get your thoughts on paper and… It makes it a thing. Yeah. And if it's a thing, it got out of you. Exactly. I was just going to say, we store all of that emotion in our body.

We do need to get it out. Otherwise, later in life, it harbors as… Illness. Exactly. Illness, weight gain or whatever. You know, I I put my patients through a gauntlet of basement work. And I always tell them the basement has no windows because you're to look only inside. And you've got to go down there and your inventory is all over the place. It's a shit show.

Yeah. And we're going to write fuck you four lists. What if someone is, because I do feel like if you have a lot of trauma, you sort of black things out. Like it took me a long time to, well, I still don't have a lot of memories from my childhood. I'm still recovering memories.

How do you, so if you're trying to do the work, how do you navigate that? So what I do is I have you write a fuck you four list. And then that, the big traumas come out. And I'm like, that's not you.

And then after they write that list, I tell them to write not my stuff at the top. I said, let's move that out of your basement. Okay. Then we take that same list and I have them write the feeling they felt to each memory. And it will be repetitive, sad, worthless, worthless, angry, sad, alone, alone. And I find their five core wounds. Okay. So we clean up the basement. We get that stuff out so that when we're in this basement, we have our core wounds. Okay. So what happens is you start to heal the big traumas. I'll have

memories even today of things that were said that I was so busy surviving either the previous or preparing for the next that that one seemed like not a big deal. Right. They were all a big deal. Yeah. They're all a big deal. Yeah. This is why I know that they know what they're doing. That we believe that they don't is the biggest trick they have. Because if we believe that they don't know what they're doing, we will give them the benefit of the doubt. Exactly. And they get away with murder. Yeah, exactly.

You're right, damn it. There's that saying, the greatest trick the devil ever played was to make you believe he doesn't exist. God, that's so... I needed to hear that. I really did. They know what they're doing.

Yeah, no, you're right. Because I think in my, I have sort of chalked it up to like, it's almost like a handicap. But no, damn it. You're right. They're handi-capable. They're far more capable in their trickery. I can't imagine what blows me away is how much they have to keep track of.

That's what I've never understood with the lies. That's a really smart person. I don't even know where my keys were. No, you're right. I don't remember directions. We should never dumb them down. I'm not saying that we admire that type of intelligence. I'm saying that they know what they're doing.

They just don't care as long as it's serving them. Serving them. They do care about themselves. No, you're right. That's it. That's it. Oh, man, it blows my mind. I love how empowering you are for people who are survivors of this narcissistic abuse.

Honestly, I was so ashamed to talk about my childhood for so long. I mean, I really, I just was really insecure about it. You speak so highly of being a survivor. So what would you say the gifts to being a survivor are? Oh, God. My insecurities have been my greatest gifts. I think that's such a great way of looking at it. In the new book, I teach how to turn your insecurities into superpowers of love. If you think about like reporters, it's like we have this little world in here, and they're reporting to us all the time. Well, on Sherry News today, it's learning to listen to them.

And I don't think it's everybody's business to know our story. I don't think we need to tell everyone our insecurities. I think we have to know who those people are that we can so that someone doesn't take advantage of those insecurities. You knowing your insecurities is you knowing you. It is such a superpower. And they do go away. I feel lighter. I feel so much more soulful and round and whole. And whole to me means all the proper components. It doesn't mean a perpetual state of well-being. Right. I don't like this toxic

positivity because that takes away the real depth. My pain has been my greatest gift in my life. You know, when you watch superhero movies, they always have a really valiant warrior. And I say valiant because to us, when that's your parent, we don't know how to see them as bad. Right. We think they're good. We don't think they're craven. We think they're valiant. Right.

And that we are bad. Yep. And I feel like I've lived on the edge of my seat of my own survival my entire life. And I've won. I love that. I love that. And I've won because I started to take care of me in the ways that no one else did. I agree.

Someone asked me, how do you love yourself? It's such a weird thing to say. And it can feel offensive to people when you've never been loved. Believe me, I've been like, it's a pretty flippant thing to say. Have you met my parents? Right? Have you seen the trail of men I've dated? Some of the friends I've chosen.

I think I had a toxic dog once, you know? So I think that what happens is when you can embrace life for what it is, then you don't have things like resentment and bitterness. I don't have any of that. I don't, I love my parents. I don't like or respect my parents. And I feel like they run you out of your own empathy. Yeah. And because we're good hearted, then we move over to sympathy. Right. And they wear that out. Yep. Then we move over to compassion. And then we end up in pity. Right. And so I love them, but I do. It's sad that that's the way that they are. Yeah, exactly. And it's pitiful. But I think it's so important that, you know, instead of being the victim, you take it and you,

you know, you embrace it. And it's like, I'm thankful now for my journey too, because it's as cliche as it is, made me who I am. It's made me a lot stronger. It's made me find myself. Oh, yeah. And for that, I'm thankful, you know. And yes, while my dad is maybe not in my life now, I am. And as hard as it was growing up, I am now thankful for it because ultimately it's led me where I am. You know, when you get to a point where you can't speak around people, it's because they have shut your mouth. Yeah. If you want to shut my mouth, you have no business being in my life exactly if you are not interested

in the truth then you have no business being in my life I've learned that I was bad for telling the truth right and now I won't sacrifice that truth for anyone or anything and I know my my boundaries I know so boundaries we all look at as we're kicking people out right it's not we are trying to keep people in yeah when you do this it hurts my feelings and if you you're giving this person this amazing opportunity to show you that your line of tolerance that they love adore and respect you to stay in your life. Exactly. When you tell a narcissist or a toxic person that this is your boundary, they're like, poke. Exactly. And they get angry. I mean, they want nothing to do with boundaries. That's actually another great way, even in the dating world, to

tell. And unfortunately, sometimes it takes having a really tough conversation to start to kind of pick up on that stuff. But if you have boundaries and someone's not respecting them, huge red flag. They're showing you they don't love and respect you. Exactly. And if there's no respect, there's no trust. If there's no trust, you can't love someone fully, openly, vulnerably that you don't trust. There's no foundation without trust. There's no foundation.

No. So I think being a survivor is something that I am so proud of. You know, I shouldn't be me and me I am here today. Exactly. I shouldn't be. I had every obstacle known to man put in my way to be me. Right. And I do think some survival is genetic. I do too. And I'm thankful that whatever it is that's in me, that I have it. You're a fighter. And now it's putting me in some of the biggest places in the world. You're able to help so many people now. Yeah. And now I'm doing a TEDx in Danville. Yes. And Dan, right you are. Yeah. It's amazing. It's amazing. And I just, because emotional abuse

isn't identifiable by physical markers, we don't think it's valid. But we now have five countries in Europe that deem coercive abuse just punishable by the law. Oh, really? It's starting. Good. It's starting because this type of abuse is potent enough to break the hearts and spirits of people. Absolutely.

And having lifelong internal bloody wounding. Yeah. When my father was physically violent, it was actually easier for me than when he would call me a loser. Isn't that so crazy? Because he felt bad after he hit me. Oh, wow.

But not when he would call you a loser. Or yank me or grab me or beat someone else up in front of me. Wow. I know. So it's as bizarre as that is. Yeah. Yeah. I felt bad. So yeah. For him. Yeah. For him. Yeah, exactly. Dr. Campbell, I love you so much. You are the best. Thank you so much for being here and just being so open and vulnerable. I think this is going to

resonate with a lot of people. I hope so. It will. Because they're seen. Yeah. The abuses we endure are real and they happen. Yeah. So just embrace that and don't let someone talk you out of it. Abusers will talk you out of being abused. Oh, completely. But I want to thank you for having me, Kristen. I just felt so connected to you.

I know. From the second we even connected. So I'm so proud of you and your show. And I got to watch you grow up. I feel like a mama vibe for you. Oh, thank you. Tell everyone where they can find you because I know everyone is going to want to. Yes, yes, yes.

So dr.sherry on Instagram. I just started TikTok. I'm not sure how good at TikTok I am, but I'm dr.sherry there. And then I have a pretty large following on Facebook. I'm in the hundreds of thousands there and that's Sherry Campbell, PhD. Amazing.

And then your books, obviously, anywhere you get books. Yes, wherever books are sold. And your podcast. Yes, Sherry P. Sessions, Cutting Toxic Family Ties. And I made that a private podcast because this is a private issue and everything else is public. And the podcast is doing fantastic. I'm sure I've ever thought, but it's doing great. I'm sure. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening.