Let's Find Common Ground - Coming Together Across Divides: Holiday Season Special Episode

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

What happens when people of opposing viewpoints and diverse backgrounds work in teams, have conversations, or even sit across the table from each other at family gatherings? How do they come together and listen to others who see the world very differently? In this special episode, we compile a series of inspiring stories from past shows. Mother and daughter Robbie Lawler and Becca Kearl share deep love and respect but vote for different parties. Psychologist Tania Israel explains practical, proven ways to go beyond your bubble and get out of opinion silos and comfort zones. Race reconciliator Daryl Davis and former white supremacist Ryan Lo'Ree discuss their remarkable work together to deradicalize members of hate groups. Co-authors, Republican Jordan Blashek and Democrat Chris Haugh, recount their unlikely friendship that blossomed not despite, but because of their political differences.  Radio and podcast journalist Ashley Ahearn talks about what she learned from her new friends and neighbors after moving from progressive Seattle to a conservative ranching country in rural Washington State. All on “Let’s Find Common Ground.” After deep skepticism, Dr. Gisèle Huff, a longtime proponent of school choice, and Becky Pringle, President of the National Education Association, came together to work on a new vision for the future of education.

This episode is for the holiday season, a time when families and friends come together for meals and parties, and hopefully good times. But what happens when people of opposing viewpoints and diverse backgrounds have conversations or even sit across the table from each other? How do they speak with and listen to other people who see the world very differently? to other people who see the world very differently. This is Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Ashley Milntite. And I'm Richard Davies. Today we share some fascinating insights from past guests. First up, a mother and daughter who share deep love and respect for one another, but vote

for different parties. Robby Lawler is a Republican who voted for Donald Trump last year. Her daughter, Becca Curl, supported Joe Biden. Both of you sound very reasonable, but you do have political differences. How do you talk about them? Does it ever give rise to tension? Like maybe some siblings right notice some tension, just because of the way that they kind of lay out

their ideas. And I would say that for me, it's more about seeing the human being, like both in how I consider issues, it's seeing the human beings that are affected by issues or by policies. And the same thing when I'm talking politics, it's about seeing the people that I'm talking to. So, if you have a really good relationship of trust, if you're able to be honest and authentic with each other, then I think it's easier to talk politics because I can understand all the reasons that lead you

to vote the way that you vote. Or with my parents, this election cycle, it was understanding how conflicted they were and how much thought and how much processing led to their ultimate decision. I was able to separate it from the larger rhetoric of if you vote this way you must be Fill in the blank. And that's just what I was going to say Becca.

I think we have developed a family culture that we can talk about difficult things. And especially with this election process, I think we kind of went on the journey together. I mean, Becca ended up doing the fork in the road and going one way and we did the other, but we were both pretty honest in things that we would find or hear or see. And I just think having that open communication also helped. And do you think that communication did that originate the way you raised your kids? I'm really curious about how you grew up as a family, whether you raised your kids to talk about current affairs at the

table, how all that came about. I'll let Rebecca answer. My dad really emphasized the importance of communication. And it wasn't something that I always appreciated. I remember even, you know, there was a time where I didn't like face-to-face communication, which is interesting based on what I do for a living now, but he would write me a note and I would read the note and then I would respond, like it was easier for me. But it was so important that there was communication for him that he was willing to kind of think outside the box And I think that you know, we all there are six of us children. I'm the oldest and we all have very different lives

And you know, we all look at things in a different way and bring a different perspective but I Feel like we were always able to be ourselves. Yeah, I would agree. I think to one of the practices we did was at the dinner table. Dinner table was not just a time to complain or whatever. And back this whole life, we do highs and lows. So you go around the table and you say, what your low is today and what your high was today. And I think that that opened up communication at a really young age.

And I mean, I think Becca still does it with her. Can we still do it? And we do it with our grandkids. And I just think having that open communication because on the political spectrum, I think of the six kids. I think five of the six all voted for Biden. And I'm perfectly fine with that. And we all have talked about it. Robby Lawler and her daughter, Bacca, both living Utah and as you can hear, they're close.

Our next guest became friends after being on opposing sides of a contentious issue. Dr. Giselle Haaf is a philanthropist and long-time proponent of school choice, including charter schools. Becky Pringle is president of the National Education Association, the nation's largest labor union. After some initial skepticism and back and forth, they came together to work on a new vision for the future of education. And they did so in person. Both of them say there's a big difference between online Zoom meetings that have been so common during the COVID pandemic and being face to face.

Jizelle first. There's no comparison. There's no comparison. There were five get-togethers that I attended. There's no comparison. There's no comparison. There were five get-togethers that I attended. And there were four, two and a half days each. So just like Congress in the old days, when they used to go out and have a drink, you know, at the end of a session, you know.

We had dinner together, we had breakfast, we went to places and talked to each other. I mean, it was a completely different experience. And I think is what I can say without any question that it was like 19 day. And Becky, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, how important was it that you were face to face in the same room, eating together, meeting together informally rather than just sitting in front of a computer

and being remote the way all of us have been during COVID. Does Ellen, I had this seminal moment, right? I could never have happened through technology when I asked her to step outside the room and just talk to me. You can't do that in a virtual set. I mean, I break out rooms, but you kind of have to organize those ahead of time.

You can't just reach a cart, reach into the box and say, could you step outside with me? Anyway, my point is those moments, where you have the opportunity just to connect one-on-one, there's just nothing like breaking bread together to Jacelle's point. This is nothing like it,

because you start talking about your family. You know, I learned about more about she had shared that in the group, but I learned more about her history. You know, we both suffered a tragic loss. Her for son and me, my husband, and you know, just talking about that over dinner. There's nothing like looking in somebody's eyes. There's nothing like looking in somebody's eyes. Make me cry. There's nothing like that. Just nothing like that. Looking into somebody's eyes.

And when you do that, you see their humanity. And that is what allows you to connect to that larger human experience and vision that we all want, right? For our kids, that we all want for our families, that we all want for this country. Honestly, you can replicate it over the Zoom. I love seeing you, Lizell, right now, but I can't wait to I get to San Francisco and see you. Now, hugging is the thing I miss the most during the DON, some ones that we were separated from each other. Now hugging is the thing I missed the most during the D.O.N.

and someone's study. We were separated from each other. That hug, that ability to just take somebody in your arms or be taken in someone's arms is like, it's humanity. You know, I mean, it makes you feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself. Becky Pringle and Giselle Haaf, knowing that we're all part of something bigger than ourselves, is a key ingredient in any group meeting, whether you're with your family or at the workplace. Next, we discuss some practical things we could all do to have more fruitful conversations

that reach across deep political and social divides. Psychologist Tanya Israel wrote the book, Beyond Your Bubble. We are living at a time of great division right now, mostly over politics. Have you noticed a change or a worsening of that divide? Sure, there is a worsening of that divide and I would say particularly in terms of

not even differences of opinion on the issues, but views of people on the other side seems to really be where so much of the tension and the vitriol is. You mean people just see the other side as untalktouable? Yes. Seeing the other side as not only wrong but actually immoral, unkind, idiotic, you know that they can't understand, but really the immoral piece stands out to me because I feel like it's very hard to want to have a conversation with somebody who you view as not having morals. You offer one piece of advice that I found very helpful recently, which is ask questions

from a place of curiosity rather than judgment. Why is that worthwhile? You can hold very strong opinions, even extreme opinions, but still be respectful of and interested in a different perspective and really want to know about different perspectives and not find that threatening to your own view. And coming from that kind of intellectual humility,

that really generates curiosity, that makes you want to know where someone else is coming from. And if you have that foundational stance, then it's going to help you to be able to implement these skills. And what that might involve for the Oscar, say the curious person, is that they might feel vulnerable putting themselves out there like that. You know, you said in the

past that being vulnerable can be seen as a sign of weakness, but in conversation being vulnerable is not knowing how the other person will respond and making space for it anyway, which sounds kind of uncomfortable. Absolutely. So vulnerability, I think, can be felt for everybody in this conversation. Whether you're asking, whether you're trying to share where you come from, that can be really hard.

If you know that the other person might disagree with you, might have a really different perspective on it. And I once said to my therapist, I said, I don't mind being vulnerable. As long as I know that the other person is going to respond with warmth and support and openness, and she said, that's not vulnerability. And she's obviously right that being vulnerable is about, you just don't know how the other persons are going to respond. And you're going to put yourself out there anyway.

Professor Tanya Israel. To hear more from this and other interviews, go to our podcast website, commongroundcommity.org slash podcasts. Yeah, and we have 44 episodes and counting. You're listening to Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Richard. I'm Ashley. Before we hear more from our guests, we have one suggestion.

Richard? Tuesday, November 30th is Giving Day. Please remember a common ground committee in your plans. You can visit common ground committee.org to donate. We also have a complimentary downloadable holiday guide and blog post. Your essential guide to civil political conversations as well as a webinar on the same topic. Learn more at our website. Our next guest who we spoke with earlier this year is Ashley Aherne, a public radio journalist and podcaster.

She moved from Seattle where she was surrounded by liberals and progressives. To rural Washington State where most of her new neighbors and friends are conservative, what did she learn from them in her new life on a small ranch? There's a lot of quiet out here and there's a lot of visiting, you know, country people visit, they don't catch up, they visit. And I think that as I've built rapport and relationships with them, it's opened the door for conversations that I have never been able to have as a journalist kind of showing up for a brief stint

or a vacationer coming to country like this. And I think it's made me a better journalist. And I can only say that I think that through conversation and through being, you know, the only person that's driving an electric car on my road, but also drives a pickup truck and halls horses and moves cows, certain conversations happen with me and

my husband in this community that aren't happening among the people who have always lived here. If that makes sense. And I think by translation, I'm learning and my perception has changed in terms of the kinds of questions I ask and the way I approach stories and the angles that I choose to interrogate that I don't think would have been possible if I was doing it from Seattle. So tell us a little bit more about your neighbors of the place that you now live. What do they believe? What are that politics? I had to come here with certain assumptions that everybody was kind of hard-line rabid Trump supporters out here, you know, gun-toting, pro-life,

all of that. And the truth is much more gray. I move cows for one rancher who, yeah, thanks climate change is cyclical. It's not real. But we have conversations now about how the wildfires are getting worse and more frequent and the droughts are longer and you can't find water as easily in his pastures in some of the high country areas, whereas cows go, that used to be full of water for longer stretches of the summer. And so while I would just assume that some people are just sort of hardliners, I'm finding

that, you know, that cowboy I had Easter dinner with his wife's a yoga instructor, you know. And so he's maybe a little more on the conservative side, but I think he voted for Biden. He might have voted for Trump the first time because he didn't like Hillary, but he voted for Biden this last time. And so it's a spectrum, right? And I think that I try not to put people in boxes. And I do have, you know, other neighbors who are hard-line, you know, I have a neighbor who's, he makes gun holsters and he's very conservative. And, you know, he calls me a lib tart and I call him an asshole on a regular basis. And then we laugh and then we drink

whiskey and then we ride horses and we go on with our lives. The conversations are interesting because you get to see all of the gray in everybody's politics, as opposed to coming to the table with the expectation that we're hard line opposed to one another. And I think, yes, I skew liberal in the sense that I am a feminist, I'm pro-choice on certain issues, but in general, I would say,

I'm moving more toward the independent side of things. And so, I may come from a liberal background But I live in a rural place and I have deep respect and curiosity about this place Ashley Ahern speaking with us from her new home in rural Washington state Next race reconsiliated Darrell Davis and former white supremacist Ryan LaRie discussed their remarkable work to deraticalize members of hate groups. Darrell is a black musician, race-reconciliator, and lecturer who has used the power of human connection to convince hundreds of people to leave white supremacist groups. Ryan now works to de-radicalize people who have been lured into right and left-wing extremism.

Ryan, a personal question. Yes. How did you move from hate to love? What changed in your heart? It was somebody actually giving me love and return. Like I said, I had black friends and I was growing up. Miss Veronica, who is still like a second mother to me and she never gave up on me. Miss Veronica who is still like a second mother to me and

She never gave up on me even when I was part of these groups She still tried to teach me or reach me through you know voicemail whatever it may have been to try to teach me what it is to be a god-fearing man and to this day I give it to her for a lot of the changes that I made and one of her sons I give it to her for a lot of the changes that I made and one of her sons Emanuel who's my best friend. We have the same tattoo together. We He never stopped loving me You know one of the days that I finally was able to sit down with him after I left the group We just hugged and cried literally. I mean that's there wasn't even conversation there. It was two grown men While other people watched on

and we just emotionally just let it out. So I think a lot of it for me was another person showing me love and the person from another color being able to say, look, we love you no matter what you made and what you decided to do was very, very important in my change. And now everybody gets that. And not everybody has a strong support group.

And that's why, you know, some cases we have to figure out how we can try to give them that support. When we talk to people and sit down with them, you have to come with love and compassion in your heart. Ryan, you've obviously obviously changed your mind about a lot since you were in the hate group. But, but, Darrell, what about you? Have, is there anything as you've been doing this work for such a long time? I mean, is there anything that you have changed your mind about any conviction that you held years ago that you no longer do something? Absolutely. You know, it's been a good learning experience for me as well. And because I changed is the reason why I continue to do this work. So when I first got into this, I had a question in my mind that I had formed at the age of

10 after having the racist experience where some people threw things at me in a parade. I formed a question which was, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? And all I wanted was the answer to that question. I wasn't out to convert anybody. I wasn't out to change anybody. I just want to know, what is your process of thinking that I should hate this person just because they have

a different skin color, and they don't know anything about me beyond my skin color. That's all I saw. You know, I'm not out to make friends with the KKK. All I want to know is why? Why do you believe this, that's all? After these conversations, you took place, they began to humanize me and I began to humanize them. You know, when you're sitting with somebody face to face having a conversation,

even if you disagree, you see some humanity in that person. Darryl Davis and Ryan LaRie from Episode 34. Our final story is about a road trip. Two friends, one Democrat, one Republican, and their search for common ground. Jordan Blasheck and Chris Haar drove through 44 states and are nearly 20,000 miles of roads, meeting an extraordinary range of people along the way. Jordan is conservative, Chris is liberal.

Together they wrote a book about their experiences and why their friendship grew not despite but because of their political differences. There's a quote in your book, Union, about common ground. And you say, finding common ground isn't about being right. It's about laying a foundation to argue passionately while respecting the other side. It's a lot about getting to agreement, but getting to the point where disagreement isn't reason to pull away.

Jordan? Yes, what we realized was we were never gonna convince each other that I was right and Chris was wrong, even though I am right and Chris is usually wrong. We were never going to convince each other or fully change each other's mind. But what we wanted to get to is the point where we could have these deeper conversations and wrestle over issues and voice disagreements completely honestly and not feel like that was going to pull us apart. And so we came to the view that common ground

actually has nothing to do with finding the areas we agree. It's about being able to disagree and not have reason to end the friendship over it. Chris, what would you add to that? Yeah, and I think that's a responsibility to that too. You know, because if we're going to disagree, we have to be able to listen, but coming to that realization, and especially with someone who you know and you trust, it's

easy for me to say that now about Jordan because I've literally put my life in his hands before. So I know if I get angry about a political perspective of his, I know that underneath it all is the guy who helped drag me away from tear gas canisters in Arizona or drove through the night when I was too tired to take the wheel. So I think it's really important to be able to say, I'm not going to convince Jordan of every last point I have, but that's okay. Ultimately, would you say that this series of road trips has taught you more about America or more about your own

relationship with each other? That's a really good question. Wow. I'll be curious to hear what Jordan says. I would say more about the relationship. I think what was most amazing is just sort of getting to know one another and letting the relationship grow. I mean, we went from fighting almost, you know, like half of our road trips were, like,

some sort of heated conversation about an issue of the day. To we rarely fight now, we disagree, but we are able to sort of understand one another where we have this sort of shared language that sometimes we worry that like when we open the door of the Volvo and walk out into society that it might start to dissolve, but at least the two of us have been able to build this amazing way of getting ideas across and sharing where we came from. Jordan, you get the final word. Oh, I think it pains me to say this, but Chris nailed it. He's exactly right.

Thanks, buddy. Yeah, I think that's right. I think we saw pieces of the country that if we weave them all together, to us paints this beautiful picture of who we are and who we can be together moving forward. And it left us hopeful. And it doesn't mean we didn't see all the dark spots

and the structural challenges we face going forward. But we saw so many wonderful people working so hard to make life better, that it's hard not to walk away hopeful from these trips. But we also know that that was a tiny glimpse of America. And we could spend a lifetime out on the road and still not see it all. And so in the end, what we're left with

is that we that our own friendship was strengthened and deepened and made us better people. And this book is in part a reflection on how our relationship changed as much as it is. I've been using this phrase lately and Chris laughs at me for it, but a love letter to the country. It's us saying, you know, here's the beautiful things we saw out on the road, and we hope other people can experience this too. Jordan Blashek and Chris Hall on Let's Find Common Ground. That's our show, which we've released just before Thanksgiving.

I'm Ashley Melntite. And I'm Richard Davies, wishing you a happy holiday, and thanks for listening. Happy holiday and thanks for listening.