Let's Find Common Ground - Education Reimagined with Becky Pringle and Gisele Huff

Episode Date: August 5, 2021

Everyone wants the best education for their children. But parents and teachers don't always agree on how to get there. In this episode, we hear from two education leaders whose views clashed when they first met. Gisele Huff is a philanthropist and longtime proponent of school choice, including charter schools. Becky Pringle spent her career in public education. A science teacher for three decades, she is now President of the National Education Association, the nation’s largest labor union.  After some deep initial skepticism, these women and other leaders came together and developed a transformational vision for US education. Along the way, they developed a deep respect for one another, and a friendship that has helped each of them through personal tragedies. This episode is co-produced in partnership with Convergence Center for Policy Resolution— one of a series of podcasts that Common Ground Committee and Convergence are producing together. 

Everyone wants the best education for their children, but parents and teachers don't always agree on how to get there. In this episode, we talk with two education leaders whose visions clashed when they first met. This is Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Richard Davies. And I'm Ashley Milntite. Jacelle Huff is a philanthropist and long time proponent of school choice, including charter schools. Becky Pringle has spent her career in public education. A science teacher for three decades, today she's president of the National Education Association or NEA, the nation's largest teachers union. Becky and Giselle first met through Convergent Center for Policy Resolution, which brought

them together with other education experts to agree on a vision to transform education for America's kids. Convergence encouraged them to leave their entrenched mindsets at the door. Giselle is a Holocaust survivor who emigrated to the US as a child and got a shot at the American dream. Becky wants every student, regardless of background, to be able to do the same. I started by asking Becky about how she got interested in teaching and education. I always wanted to be a teacher, always. From the time I forced my two sisters to play school

on the front steps of my North Philly home, I just had this calling to teach. And against my father's wishes, he did not want me to become a teacher. He had already seen the diminishment of respect for teachers. Certainly, I was never gonna make a lot of money as a teacher, but most especially my dad stole from me a black woman following in the footsteps of so many Before me because it was the most traditional of careers for a woman and for a black woman

My dad had fought a long-haired battle for me to be able to major in science and When I told him I wanted to become a teacher, he was really disappointed in me. But a teacher I became, and I'll never forget when I got elected as an officer of the NEA back in 2008. My dad came up, he was at the convention, and he said, Rebecca, I was wrong. You're now in a position to have impact

far beyond the confines of your classroom. Jizelle, tell us about your background. So I was the executive director of a small family foundation in San Francisco for 23 years. And started, Michael, we are the first half of it, looking at school choice as a solution to the problems with education in this country.

And very much among those ideas were vouchers and charter schools and all of the choice ways of looking at making education more effective for our children. So it was a reform movement, and we were supporting all of the organizations that were fighting these fights in the States. And in the context of that, it was very much anti-union. And I'm saying this here because we're sitting in the room virtually with the head of the NEA, which is the biggest teachers union in the country. So that was the beginning of my career, the first half, and then in the middle of it I became interested

in the introduction of technology as an integral part of the curriculum in an industry that is a very large industry, 700 billion dollars a year, that was ignoring the power of technology as a tool. And that's the place I was in when I was approached to participate in the experience at Becky and I Chair. So Becky, when you first met Giselle, just how different did your views feel from each other? Can you give us a sense of that? Well, I think she did that in her introduction. So really different.

So what she didn't get into as much as the whole technology piece. And so certainly as an educator, I wasn't against technology, but given her background with vouchers and charters, and by the way, this will be an interesting story to tell to around charters, because to Zele and I talked about that, it was one of the ways we were kind of going at it, and we tried to bridge a little bit, because I reminded her that, you know, union started, charters.

We were trying to figure out a way to innovate from within. And so we started that. And then it got away from us. And from our perspective, became this industry that really became more about destroying public education than innovating from outside and informing the system. But nonetheless, when I heard technology, all I could think about was the billions of dollars in

technology and another effort to supplant educators to diminish us in education and our role in that. And so it became another flashpoint for us. And we didn't, certainly I didn't else speak for myself, didn't necessarily embrace it from the place of how we could actually get at some of the challenges and issues that we're having in reaching every single student, right? But I've thought about it as another challenge versus an opportunity. And so for me, when I thought about technology becoming so widespread in our system, I worry deeply about the inequities in the system and not addressing those before it became so widespread that those gaps on inequity grew and grew and grew for those kids that had been marginalized

forever. Jizelle Becky said you went at it in what ways? Well, actually, I don't recall the experience quite in the same way because the whole concept behind the convergence meeting was from the first day that we started working on this, leave all your ideas behind. You are not a representative of charter schools. You are not a superintendent of a district. You are not the leader of the NEA.

You are not a conservative thinker from our institute. You are looking at this from the future and trying to establish what ought to be. So get rid of your luggage. Don't think about the things you're bringing into the room. For me, that was the most exciting part of the experience, because it took a lot to let go. And for my point of view, our relationship, Becky, developed the way it did because we let go, because we were able to see each other as people and the authenticity of our passion, even though they were not the same passions, was enough to bring us together, despite the distance between our ideologies. That's what I recall most of all.

I mean, I found you so much of a person that I was able to relate my thoughts about what we were grappling with to the kind of respect I had for you as a person. And I think that's the thing that was so lacking these days, that no one respects each other. If you don't give people credit for being a human being and for listening to how they present themselves and what their beliefs are in a genuine way, you can't get anywhere. So I could not agree more to Zell and when I use that phrase we went at it, I say it out of love for sure.

Because here was this strong, powerful woman. And so when I say it that way, it's certainly out of respect for sure, but it was a challenge for me, right, to be able to show myself and to let go, to let come. And what was so unique for me anyway is I did it in the presence, and I mean presence in the big presence of this powerful woman who had this incredible history. So it was out of respect for that, but also what I loved about it, you know,

I, to me, I'm nor Philly, born and bred, fight, you know, I'll never get going to to pit and the guys on the campus and you must be from Philly, because you just have an attitude, and you're not even approachable. That's right, because I'ma come at you if you even think, but I saw that facing this in you that I so connected with, but you are absolutely right. It was the push convergence kept pushing

us to go toward that aspirational vision and that's what helped us to try to let go of where we were and let come that beautiful vision that we came to together. Becky, you're sounding very positive, but you said you had an attitude going in. So were you surprised by what happened coming out? I was, I mean, because here's the reality. There's else right. I mean, we all had to show up from our lenses, our experiences, all that and try to let that go. But I'll be honest, you know, I did feel like the union more than any group individually was under attack. And so, you know, when you

under attack, you kind of show up in that way. But honestly, I approached the work from a place of of having that to some degree, but also to Jezeleuc point, I wanted to show up as that 10-year-old teacher on the steps of North Philly. Why did I do that? Why did I become who I am today? Because I cared about kids, and I wanted to answer that calling for me. And when I became a union leader, that didn't change.

And I needed, I wanted them to see that heart and that passion for kids, for all kids. And then I had a responsibility as an educator and as a unionist. And as a racial and social justice activist, I had a responsibility to show up in this space and do my best, certainly, to invite the best from others. Could you give us a bit of context about the circumstances in which you met?

Just tell listeners this convergence process, what is it? And did you come in skeptical? I'm just, I'd love to hear a bit more about how it works. I was very skeptical. I'm not a committee person. I've always been a one-woven or office, and I'm very independent, and I don't believe in committees. I get very upset when long meetings go on,

and nothing happens, just a lot of lip-lapping. And because of the fact that I was a big proponent of technology and I was one of the few people in the foundation world that was talking about that, they asked me to join. And I saw it, I'm going to do this because I don't believe anything will come of it. I want to make sure that what I think is important

is you're presented at the table. Let me just have a seat at the table and never mind, you know, how little people care about technology or don't understand it or have different ideas. I'm going to be there to speak about it. Just as you, Becky, were saying, you know, that the unions were being put upon and you wanted to be there to represent the children and what you care about. And Becky, what's your view of the convergence process? Yeah, I could not agree more. You know, I was very highly skeptical, but we're going to talk about education.

Then we need to be there. But I believe that the facilitators, they took the time to understand who we were. I know they were very thoughtful about who they wanted to have at the table. They took care to talk to us in between, to continue to coax us to stay. And then this was interesting for me anyway, to tell you and I talked about this. They actually created a space for us to not only let go and come, but also to have ownership. And so one of the things that we did towards the end and continued after was, OK, now you

have this beautiful aspirational vision. What is your responsibility from where you are. What is your responsibility? From where you are. What is your responsibility? And what that caused us at the NEA was to really dig into that vision and say, OK, I do feel a responsibility to do this, to make this real for us.

And so it birthed, right, to the end of that next piece of it. The pioneers who were actually, you know, had it to be started or wanted to start, the learner-centered system. And that was exciting too, so it became, it wasn't just about talking and it wasn't just about articulating a vision, but not seeing ourselves in it, and what our responsibility was to make it so. You're listening to Becky Pringle and Giselle Haaf on Let's Fine Common Ground. I'm Ashley. And I'm Richard. This episode is co-produced in partnership with Convergent Center for Policy Resolution.

It's one of a series of podcasts that Common ground committee and convergence are producing together. As you're hearing in this episode, convergence brings together key stakeholders of an issue to work out policies that deliver the most value to the greatest number of people. Their projects emphasize collaboration and often result in friendships among people who come into their first meetings with opposing views. Now more of our interview. Shazel, I know you've had some fairly recent experience of facilitated meetings through your work with your new foundation, but that was online

because of the pandemic. So when you think back to your meetings with Becky through convergence, you were physically together in the same room. What was that like? There's no comparison. There's no comparison. Because when you're in person, we got together, in my case, the first get together, I did not attend, that's when they changed, they changed the format somewhat. There were five get-togethers that I attended and there were for two and a half days each. So just like Congress in the old days, when they used to go out and have a drink, you know, at the end of a session,

we had dinner together, we had breakfast, we went to places and talked to each other. I mean, it was a completely different experience. And I think is what I couldn't say without any question that it was like 19 days. So the online experience just couldn't bring that same closeness? There was no way that I could establish a relationship with anybody as I did with Becky during that period. No way. I mean, virtually just as it's done. First of all, they were much shorter. We were, you know, you can't keep people from a computer for more than four hours. We were

together for two and a half days. And Becky, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, how important was it that you were, you know, face to face in the same room, eating together, meeting together informally rather than just sitting in front of a computer and being remote the way all of us have been during COVID. Does Ellen, I had this seminal moment, right? I could never have happened through technology. When I asked to step outside the room and just talk to me, you can't do that in a virtual

set. I mean, I break out rooms, but you kind of have to organize those ahead of time. You can't just reach into the box and say, could you step outside with me? Anyway, my point is, those moments where you have the opportunity just to connect one on one, there's just nothing like breaking bread together to Jacelle's point. This is nothing like it, because you start talking about your family.

I learned about more about, she had shared that in the group, but I learned more about her history. We both suffered a tragic loss. Her son and me, of my husband, and just talking about that over dinner, There's nothing like looking in somebody's eyes. Make me cry. There's nothing like that. Just nothing like that. Looking into somebody's eyes and when you do that, you see their humanity and that is what allows you to connect to that larger human experience and vision that we all want, right, for our kids, that we all want for our families, that we all

want for this country. Honestly, you can replicate it over the Zoom. I love seeing you, this is all right now, but I can't wait to get to San Francisco and see you. Now, hugging is the thing I miss the most during the D.O.N. and someone's that we were separated from each other. That hug, that ability to just take somebody in your arms or be taken in someone's arms is like, it's humanity, you know? I mean, it makes you feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself. There you go.

They both fear something's been lost during the last few years as culture wars escalate and people with different perspectives don't meet face to face. Don't even talk to each other sometimes. When Becky thinks back to their group meetings with convergence and the vision they all came up with for the future of education, she's proud. One of the things I loved about it was the ending where we're talks about, well, all of it, but you know, talks about students being constructive members of the communities, understanding that, you know, they need to fill their full potential

as empowered individuals. So it talks about them, you know, so the each child, the rich diversity and brilliance, but it also talks about them as part of a community, and it also talks about them being engaged citizens of the United States and the world. What are some other concepts that you came up with as a result of this convergence process? So, the concept of getting thinking people together and getting them to drop their prejudices and moving forward on ideas that speak to the future is it's what's missing from the human experience. I mean the whole idea that you look at problems holistically and you think about what would be the best thing if there were no restraints whatsoever and I was asked to create the best society. What would it look like? Really the focus was giving the children agency. That was of all the things

that we talk about many many things, but understanding that you had to empower the children to participate in their learning experience in a way that they were in charge of it as they progressed, giving them the tools to be able to do that. And you know, Richard, I would add that one of the things we really, really tackled was that when we think about the development of students, that we have to think about it in three domains. So we generally think about knowledge, that's what we generally think about, development of students, that we have to think about it in three domains. So we generally think about knowledge, that's what we generally think about, but we have to think about skills,

and we have to think about dispositions. And then we broke that down into five pieces or elements. And Jacelle talked about the one that speaks to me more than any, and that is student agency, the whole concept of students owning their own learning. But we also talked about it being, the learning being and skills as owning their own learning, but we also talked about it being the learning being and skills and dispositions being competency based and being personalized and relevant and contextualized.

We also talked about their experiences being socially embedded and open wall, right? So, that one, I, those two things, those last two things, especially after this year, wow. Our podcast is called Let's Find Common Ground. Any advice from both of you to others on how to find common ground and what common ground means to you? You know, I think where Giselle started, oh it, and that is, you know, you have to you have to pick yourself up out of the current reality.

You know, current reality will always pull you back to what you know and what you or think you know and the way you've always done things and you can't free your mind to imagine what's possible. And so when you're trying to find common ground, it is about that aspirational future and trying to stay in that space. Even as you, you know, you got to move, you got to take action to get there for sure, but you got to ground yourself in that common vision and never take your eye off of that. And for me, it's everything you've said Becky, it encapsulates what we want to. But remember that we also said at the beginning, what is the purpose of education?

So the famous, why question? If you can agree that there's a why, or there's something that you, for instance, let's say, we agree that everybody loves their children. Everybody wants the best for their children. That's common ground. It's only when you talk about process that you get a lot of disagreement. But when you're talking about the wise, we're all human beings, and I said before, we all have the same aspirations. Nobody wants to

be hated, well, maybe a few, but in general, you know, people want to be respected. They want to be a life that they want to participate. I mean, all of the things that human beings want. And if you can get to that root thing, then you can build on it and move forward. Thank you both so much for joining us on Let's Find Common Ground today. Thank you for having me and Becky. I mean, we are so happy to do this together. common ground today. Thank you for having me and Becky.

I mean, we are so happy to do this together. Always. Thank you. Thank you, too. Thank you, Jizal. Becky Pringle and Jizal Hoff. The learner-centered vision of education that Becky, Jizal, and others in the convergence group created was named Education Reimagined, and later it spun

off into a non-profit in its own right. And today, schools all over the US are part of this movement to transform education in their areas. That's our show for today. We'll be back in two weeks. You can check out all our past episodes at CommonGroundCommittee.org slash podcasts. I'm Ashlyn Muntite. And I'm Richard Davies.

Thanks for listening. This podcast is part of the Democracy Group. This podcast is part of the Democracy Group.