Let's Find Common Ground - Errol and Tina Toulon: Lessons From an Interracial Couple.

Episode Date: July 16, 2020

What can we discover about personal pain caused by racism? In this episode, we speak with an inter-racial couple to find out what a well-educated white professional woman learned from her African American husband, a senior law enforcement official.  Our guests are Errol Toulon, elected as first African American Sheriff of Suffolk County, New York, and Tina MacNicholl Toulon, a physician liaison and business development executive. She tells us what she's learned since their marriage in 2016, about racism, "driving while black", and other indignities that are all too often part of a black person's daily life. The need to find common ground and improve race relations has taken on new urgency with recent anti-racist protests and demands for profound change in America. Both Tina and Errol believe that education is a crucial ingredient in reaching a much better understanding about widespread racism. By speaking out publicly about their own experiences, they believe they're contributing to a vital discussion aimed at improving public understanding of a divisive and disturbing part of American life.

What can we learn about race from two people who love each other? One black, one white. We find out what a well-educated professional woman discovered about racism from her husband, a top law enforcement official, and the first African-American to be elected to countywide office where he lives. This is Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Richard Davies. And I'm Ashlingel Tite.

Today we look at finding common ground on racism from the most intimate perspective. That of a married couple. Errol Toulon and his wife Tina McNickel Toulon have been together less than five years. Both had successful careers when they met. Tina is a physician's liaison and business development executive. She has two children from a previous marriage. And Errol Toulon is the first African-American sheriff

of Suffolk County on New York's Long Island. It's a majority white county with more than a million and a half residents. Errol's first wife died in 2013. They had two children. And he has faced two life-threatening bouts with cancer. Both Tina and Errol believe education is a crucial ingredient in reaching a much better understanding

about widespread racism. They generously agreed to share their personal story. I asked them how they met. So I guess all I answered that we met on match.com We've been married four years and one month now We actually took us a couple weeks before we met but it was pretty instantaneous when we met I had been on match a long time, and I was the first person, Aaron met on match.

That's like me and my husband. Exactly. Exactly. Same story. I had been doing online dating for ages and having date after uninspiring date, and he had never been on a website before, and I was the first person he went out on a date with. Exactly right, and I thought he was a fake profile because I didn't think anybody actually looked that good, that might have. That's clearly been, you know, some kind of professional model.

When he was real, and then all sorts of real ones once I googled him. So it was awesome actually. Still is. How long did you correspond for before you decided okay, we need to meet in person? It was actually two weeks. And you know the interesting thing was the fact that we spoke every day for almost four hours in the evening when we both get home from work and sometimes it went to 12, 30, 1 o'clock in the morning and then of course during the day we would send occasional text messages and then in the evening when we have both settled then we got back into our phone calls. Let's go back a bit

further in time, Errol and tell us a little bit about your background and childhood and where you grew up. Sure, I grew up in the South Bronx. My mom was a school teacher with the old board of education and my father was awarding on Rikers Island. I'm proud to say that during my junior and senior in high school, I was a back boy for the New York Yankees. I attended a two-year community college and then went on to become a New York City correctional. So following in my father's footsteps, I worked there for 25 years, retiring as a deputy commissioner of operations.

And during my last few years, I developed two different types of cancers. In 1996, I had Hodgonsland Phomer and then in 2003, I had pancreatic cancer, which ultimately forced me to retire. You mentioned Rikers Island for people who are not from the New York area, that is a jail. That's correct. At the time when I worked, we had almost 25,000 prisoners, 10 different jails on Rikers Island,

and then several jails in our borough facilities. We have five boroughs in New York City. So it was a mental overcrowding who was during the height of the crack cocaine epidemic. And so there was a huge challenge back then. It was really a truly mass incarceration if you want to use that term. Tina, tell us about your childhood and background, which is somewhat different

from arrows, right? Indeed, and shorter. So my father was born in Russia. My mother was born in Ecuador, and they met here in the United States. So we had very unique parents and I grew up in Wilton, Connecticut. So my parents were domestics. And really, you know, lived a wonderfully quiet life and did end up getting divorced of two children, lived in Connecticut my whole life till I moved to Long Island. Going back to each of your childhoods, first, Errol, did you grow up playing with also some different people from all sorts of different backgrounds? I mean, how did race sort of play into your life when you were a kid?

Did you think about it a lot or not at all? No, you know, I really didn't because my father and mother had friends of all ethnicities. Where I went to school, I went to a Catholic grammar school and a Catholic high school. And so there was African-Americans, Latinos, and Caucasian kids, all boys, that was the unfortunate thing about the school. And then also being a bad boy for the New York Yankees, you're really on the other side of the spectrum where you're really integrating and meeting all sorts of more Caucasian people from the players,

to the management, to the fans, and usually the fans that were seated close to the dugout. Those that were seated very close to the dugout were mostly occasions where the African Americans and Latinos, you know, were either in the bleachers or in the upper decks, and you know, you would realize that during batting practice, because those young kids would often come down looking for a baseball or a part of autograph from the players, and then once the game started, you know, you can see it as a clear delineation between where the African Americans receded as

opposed to some of the quotations. Tina, you grew up, as you said, in Connecticut. Did you ever feel consciously that you were white or did you feel privileged in any way? So I felt a little different, but not in a bad way, because my parents weren't from this country. And I looked at that as that was pretty cool. And I was kind of thinking that made me a little special. But growing up in Wilton, we definitely had privilege and it was not, it was basically white.

And at the time I grew up, the African-American people I knew were bustin' from Bridgeport. And they actually stayed together at the school. We kind of integrated a little bit, but that was kind of my experience at the time. I truly grew up in a really nice town. And I think that's where the tricky word privilege comes in. It comes to white privilege. Probably 20 years ago if you had said I had white

privilege I would have said no I don't. You know we didn't have a lot of money. So you know I didn't have privilege but I understand better now for a lot of reasons. And I wish we could name it white benefit of the doubt, because the word privilege kind of throws people off. And, you know, the only way to explain it is if I get pulled over, I'm not worried about it, I'm worried about getting a speeding ticket. If an African American person gets pulled over, they're kind of worried what's going to happen, they have to keep their hands on the steering wheel, don't see anything, you know, there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happens. How has that become clear, Errol, have you witnessed things that you never expected to?

How has that become clear, Errol, have you witnessed things that you never expected to? Well, I think one of the things that we've experienced is sometimes looks from people, even now in 2020, when we would walk around, whether it's in a restaurant or in a mall, that we would get certain looks, whether they're from African-Americans or Caucasians, looking at us together.

There was an incident where I was driving Tina's black Mercedes. We were heading from Connecticut back into New York City. We were driving to Westchester and police officer from Westchester. As I drove by the vehicle, Tina reminded me yesterday that I said, we're going to get pulled over driving while black and Sure enough within three or four minutes their car was right behind me and the officer pulled us over and he said that I was doing 67 and 65 and was extremely extremely nasty. He was very belligerent and

Scared me. That's how bad he was And I even identified myself as a law enforcement person. He lambasted me for even informing him of my position. And I thought if I was that particular day. And I remember as we drove away, we were both extremely quiet for quite some time because I was seething. I was also embarrassed that this happened in front of my wife. And so clearly an African-American man driving with a Caucasian woman and a black Mercedes was causing up for him to pull me over. There was no reason.

And we know that law enforcement officers who have committed more serious violations while driving are always given a courtesy. And here I am a deputy commissioner, being extremely polite to him. And I was thoroughly embarrassed. Tina how did you feel? I was a little bit like a deer in headlights because part of me wanted to say something like what are you doing? Why is this happening? And the other part of me

kind of knew better that that could infuriate this man more. He clearly was not handling this well. Errol was calm and quiet. And I had to really rethink, I've never been in this situation. What do I do? Driving while black is such a chilling term, especially for those of us, I guess, who are white, and have not been familiar with that phrase

until fairly recently, has it happened to you a lot, Errol, in the past? No, actually, that was the first time. And, you know, in 2009, I ran for elected office here in Suffolk County, and as I was walking through the neighborhood, someone called 911 and said there was a black man with black gloves breaking into a home. Now I didn't know that this was occurring and I'm going door to door trying to inform residents

of my ambition of being a county legislator and all of a sudden I hear police cars coming and I see a police car drive quickly down the block into the cold The sack that I was walking into and turn back around and drive towards me and he gets out of his car and he starts walking Over to me and I hear other car doors start to close behind me and they're police officers They're not running. They're not even walking fast. They're walking towards me And I reached in my pocket to take my retired shield and ID card out of my pocket, because I knew that that would at least help ease

the situation if there was a situation. So I was asked, what was I doing in a neighborhood? And I said, well, I can walk anywhere I want. What was the problem? And they explained that there was a call of black man with black clubs breaking into a home and I said well it sounds like Hojee Simpson to me. And meanwhile an aviation unit now is above me and you know the course of putting a bird

in the sky, those aviation units. So a helicopter is up in the sky above you? So you have a helicopter, you have eight or nine police cars. No one drew their firearm. No one ran at me aggressively. They were extremely professional, thank goodness. But you know, that could have been a very contentious moment. If I was a different individual, and I was a button down shirt

with slacks and loafers on walking through the community, it wasn't like I had a bag over my back with a mask on. So that was a little chilling in itself. And then unfortunately, every other time I walk through this particular community, I would go to the police precinct, I would tell them where I would be walking, the time I would be walking just in case there were other residents that would make a complaint. Suffolk County is a majority white county in New York on New York's Long Island. You were elected as the first African-American sheriff, the top elected law enforcement official.

What do that feel like? I did not realize it until the election was actually confirmed because on election day, I was only a hit by 1,300 boats and they had to count over 22,000 absentee ballots. And as they got closer when I realized that I was going to win, several people informed me not only the first African American to be elected to share with the first African American to be elected to a countywide position in NASA or South African so-and-long island history. And you know, it comes with a lot of pressure, which I didn't realize until after I actually assumed office because, no, there are many people that are looking for me for leadership or mentorship and

African-Americans that are aspiring and hopeful that I do well on a job. You have some that hope that I don't do well because then they can say the old adage. Well, that's why we don't elect them. And so, you know, there is some pressure to perform or even outperform, you know, previous sharps that have ever held this office. And how's it going? No, it's the culture change was easier than I thought. And I think part of the reason was because of my previous law enforcement background that the staff respected that I have worked my way up

through the ranks that I have done the jobs that I'm asking them to do. And that we're in different times now. You know, we're not in the 1960s, 70s or even the early 80s when I became a young correction officer, where things were different. You know, we didn't monitor mental health. We didn't understand domestic violence. We didn't understand human trafficking You know those terms really weren't used back then So now we're learning more we use more evidence-based with our training To ensure that our staff or the best trained possible for whatever circumstances they may encounter You're listening to let's find common ground. I'm Ashley. I'm Richard. This podcast is part of the Common Ground Committee's Drive to Shed Light, not Heat on public discourse.

Subscribe to our newsletter at commonground.org and find out about our videos and events. And better yet, let us know what you think of the podcast, including ideas for future shows. You can reach us at podcast.comangroundcommitty.org. That email address again is podcast at commongroundcommitty.org. Also on our website, learn whether you share our philosophy about what it means to be a common grounder at a time of deep partisan division. Just as the two lawns are doing in this episode, you can share your successes and challenges to inspire others who want to reach common ground.

More information at commongroundcommittee.org. Now back to our interview with Tina and Arrell Chulon. What about Black Lives Matter, the protests against policing and the way it's done and the claims that many cops are racist? How do you react to that? Well, you know, first I believe that in every line of work there is racism. Not just unfortunately when it comes to the police, it leads with the tragedy. That's where the tragedy starts is where we start to talk about Black Lives Matter. If we look, you know,

throughout history, we've had police incidents where I always sell people. The reason why these incidents occur is because of poor training or poor supervision. When you look at Mr. Floyd and Minneapolis, you know, clearly poor training, poor supervision, Joveyn was supposedly a field training officer, two of the four officers that were with them that particular day, one had three days on a job and one had five days on a job. And so before that incident, they were in a police academy and now these men are in jail. The whole system is just not the law enforcement community. The whole system is the education, the disparate treatment and education, healthcare, housing, employment.

So there are so many more things, mental health issues, all of those things lead up to someone having some sort of police involvement, and then where the supervision and the training lacks is where we have a death. Tina, how do you feel? What does the movement mean to you? We're very much on the same page, Errol and I.

And it's really about education. And I find as a white person that when I talk to others, there is that lack of understanding. And why are we trying to change history, why are we taking down statues, but they're not thinking about what it means. And there's people so afraid of change. And they're saying you can't erase history, but yes, let's learn from it. It's really a time to really understand.

Where's the anchor coming from? I get it, I see it. A lot of people just say they think neutrality and heads down is the way to go. It's not going to help. Do you think you would have felt this exact same way 10 years ago? I mean, had you not been married to Errol, would you feel the exact same way you do now? I would have felt it a little bit but been much quieter about it. Now there's a part of me that you know tries to change the conversation a little more now than I would have before and in my house, you know, my my mother was very neutral. Like, neutral was the way to be that nobody should fight. And don't ruffle feathers. Don't shake things up. Everybody's good. Don't see color. You know, we're all good. We're all humans. But that doesn't help us help others.

I was thinking about a Zero, was telling a story about helicopter overhead. Well, he was campaigning. And I was telling the story to somebody and that, well, he's probably exaggerating a little. I'm sure there wasn't a helicopter. Everybody down plays like, people aren't really that bad.

And we were at a party for a friend of mine, this is a few years ago. And somebody brought up a very racially heated topic. And Errol walked away, he didn't engage. And I was telling somebody about it, and they said, well, you probably took it wrong. I'm sure that the person didn't mean it. And that is so common.

And I don't want to sound like a dear white people that episode, but it's this, well, people like that. I'm sure that person didn't mean it. Yeah, he didn't mean it. didn't mean it. Yeah, he didn't mean it. You, Tina and Errol, you both agreed to talk to us on this podcast about your marriage, about things that are really personal to you. Why? Why do you think it's important to speak out about being an interracial couple? No, I think it's important because, we chose each other because we love each other. We didn't choose each other because of the color

of our skins or anything. It was our personalities, it was our commonalities, our beliefs that we decided that this is the person that I want to spend my life with, often we're judged whether it's through someone's eyes, just by the way to look at us, or they might even mumble something, you know, sub-like wise he with her, or what's so special about her. And you know, they'll say it while they may be saying it to a friend, they'll say a lot enough that we can hear it.

Has anything surprised either of you about being in this relationship or being a mixed race couple? I think I was surprised at the number of people that gave us the side eye. And I think I would surprise. The side eye? Yeah, elaborate.

Sorry. They were disgusted or clearly we're showing their disapproval. And I was surprised at that. Is this people you know, China? or do you mean people in stores? What do you mean? People in stores, people were walking in. Not so much people I know. I wouldn't say my friends or family.

To people around us. To those unpleasant gestures or comments, bring both of you closer together in a way. Has it made us closer? I've never been asked that question. I think yes. I think I'd have to say yes because we are in this together and we do react the same way. I think if this, if something were to happen today, I might be more apt to say something more so than maybe two years ago. Something gentle. Like what? Like, you know, I saw that you made a face. Is everything okay?

You know, is there anything you'd like to say? And can I ask, when you've had off reactions, do they come from everyone? Have you heard them from African Americans and white people and anyone else? Or does it tend to come from one ethnicity? I do notice sometimes more so from African American women. But, you know, I would say more often,

it's that particular demographic than any others. Older white people. Yeah, sometimes older white people too, yes. Right. Do you see this interview as a teaching moment? You know, for me, I would say absolutely, because, you know, the questions that you're asking, sometimes keen and I don't outwardly discuss, you know, to actually discuss it with you, gives me some course, actually, look a little deeper and some of the things that we're experiencing. and I don't outwardly discuss, you know, to actually discuss it with you gives us,

gives me some pause to actually look a little deeper and come to things that we're experiencing, especially with what's going on throughout our country and really the globe right now when we're talking about racism. When I asked that question, Tina, you were shaking your head vigorously. Yes, yes, and yes, and I'll whole lot of yes. It goes back to education. If we can reach 10 people, 100 people, 200 people, however many, it's always a seed to me, to put the thought out there to give somebody pause

and say, I never thought of it that way. I feel like this is an opportunity for that. And just going back to your, you're actually immediate family, your relatives, those close to you, was everything good with all of them? Or did you get some dodgy reactions from anyone in your more immediate circle?

No, actually, my family was great. My friends were great. Nothing dodgy and I love that word. Yes, an English word. What else do you want to talk about? Errol, you have a story about another encounter with police after you started working in law enforcement after graduating from college, I think. As a new correction officer, I was walking down the street to Manhattan and I hear the squawking of radios and I hear the pattern of footsteps hitting the pavement and I turn around and I see police officers running and naturally just entering the field law for us and I'm looking around to see what is going on and next thing you know I'm thrown up against the wall the N word is being used at me

The what had occurred was I was wearing a polo shirt It was a warm day and the butt of my gun was showing through the shirt It wasn't seen but you can see the imprint and so with that, you know, the police said X me to but you can see the imprint. And so with that, the police said, X me to give them my firearm, which means I have to reach for it, which means I could be a casualty. And I explained to them that I'm a New York City

correction officer, and then I was asked to show my shield an ID card, which is my badge and ID card. And I said, it's in my rear left pocket, and you could reach for it because I didn't want to be accused of reaching for something. Unfortunately, these are the things that my father had spoke to my brother and I about growing up in the South Bronx and you're dealing with law enforcement, the potential misinterpretation of reaching for something.

So, that's why I was very careful. Even now, as a law enforcement official with several police So that's why I was very careful, even now with, as a law enforcement official, with several police officers around me, I was still extremely careful not to make that mistake. Errol, a lot has happened to you in your life as we've heard. You also survived cancer as we've heard, you also survived cancer and thought you were going to die. What gives you hope right now? You know, I think I feel I'm here for a reason. I survived lymphoma in 1996. Pancreatic cancer in 2003.

I had a cardiac tamponite in 2006 where a pericardial window had to be placed in my heart. And so I really feel that I'm here for a reason. I think this moment in time as me being the Suffolk County Sheriff has I think has made a difference and I really don't feel like I'm just saying that to say I think I've made a strong impact not only on the staff that work for me to 1300 individuals that work for me but also the MAPOPulation with the many rehabilitation programs that we've created and so I think it gives me an opportunity to really make a difference in the imprint because I do remember

after I was diagnosed with the pancreatic cancer and I underwent a 10-hour surgery called a Whipple procedure. Six weeks after that I was diagnosed with the pancreatic cancer and I underwent a 10-hour surgery called a Whipple Procedure. Six weeks after that, I was sick again and I was told I needed a little bit transplant within a year and I was fading. I was a man of 240 pounds almost at the time down to 130 pounds. I remember looking out my back window and my back yard through the trees and it was a little ray of sunlight and I said, God, if you just give me another opportunity,

I promise I'll try my best to do something great in life. And, you know, to me right now is that opportunity that I have. I don't take treating people for granted. I don't take every time I say goodbye to someone, it could be the last time I actually say goodbye because of my own personal experiences. So I really feel that that is my goal as long as I'm here on this earth to really try and treat people with respect and do the best job possible while I'm here. Thank you very much both of you for speaking with us on Let's Find Common Ground. Yes, thank you so much. It's been a good experience. It's a great opportunity to have some impact.

Tina and Errol Toulon on Let's Find Common Ground. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe to our podcasts. Reviews and downloads also help us grow our audience. We have other episodes on race relations, policing, leadership and more. And find out about our mission at commongroundcommittee.org. And once again, our email address is podcast at commongroundcommittee.org. And thanks for listening. and thanks for listening.