Let's Find Common Ground - Finding Common Ground in a Divided Congress: Reps. Brian Fitzpatrick (R) and Abigail Spanberger (D)

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

This episode makes a powerful case for compromise and pragmatism as crucial ingredients in passing laws and getting things done.  Our guests are Democrat Abigail Spanberger and Republican Brian Fitzpatrick, who are both members of the Problem Solvers Caucus: 62 Members of Congress, evenly split between Republicans and Democrats.  Although you wouldn’t know it from national media coverage, The Problem Solvers meet frequently when Congress is in session to discuss bipartisan legislation. They’re often successful in moving bills forward. We hear a substantive, compelling, personal conversation with two lawmakers who work together and put country before party.  We first recorded our conversation nearly four years ago. Despite their party labels they agree with each other much more than you might think.

While our podcast is on break, we're sharing some of the most compelling stories and ideas from Let's Find Common Ground over more than four years of podcasting. And given America's fiercely divided partisan politics in this election year, we think this show has special relevance today. It features two members of the House of Representatives. One Democrat, the other Republican. features two members of the House of Representatives. One Democrat, the other Republican. Unlike so many politicians, they work together to reach across the aisle and find common ground

on a range of issues. I don't necessarily classify myself as a moderate or a centrist or any of the titles. I think first and foremost, I'm a pragmatist. We all love our country and our caucus. And we want to try to find ways to come together and accomplish that. And by the way, I say this as a Republican, I want a healthy Democrat party in this country. And I think Democrats want a healthy Republican party in this country. This is Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Ashley Miltite.

And I'm Richard Davies. On this show, the powerful case for compromise as a crucial ingredient in getting stuff done. Democrat Abigail Spanberger and Republican Brian Fitzpatrick are both members of the Problem Solvers Caucus. Sixty-two members of Congress evenly split between Republicans and Democrats. Although you wouldn't know it from national media coverage of politics, the problem solvers meet frequently when Congress is in session to discuss bipartisan legislation. They're often successful in moving bills forward.

Abigail Spanberger represents the 7th congressional district in Virginia. She isn't running for re-election to the House this year because she's decided to join the race for governor of Virginia in 2025. Brian Fitzpatrick is a Republican from Pennsylvania's first congressional district, which includes all of suburban Bucks County, north of Philadelphia. We recorded our conversation nearly four years ago. Despite their party labels, they agree with each other much more than you might think. Ashley asked our first question. How important is it for each of you to reach across the

aisle and find common ground with the other side? I think it's about building coalitions to make good policy. It's necessary to build coalitions and in doing so work across the aisle To make sure that we've got support so we can pass bills not just in the house Which is held by one party in the Senate You know, but to push it over the Senate and make sure they pass it and ultimately get a president signature on it Brian, do you get anything done without compromise? You don't and Abigail myself and our caucus essentially what we believe And Abigail and myself and our caucus, essentially what we believe

is that government ought to function the same way our personal relationships do, the same way we manage our families and our businesses, that you don't allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. You come to the center, you build consensus, you listen more than your lecture, and you'd rather get the belief that we'd rather get 80% of something

than 100% of nothing. That's what our caucus believes in. We're pragmatic, we're rational. We're not any lucks at all. And what about in your districts? Do you feel that being a moderate helps you or hurts you in your own districts? Well, it's all about pragmatism. It's about caring very, very deeply about the things that matter to me. And, you know, I'm a Democrat and I choose to be a Democrat because I really prioritize much of the things that are aligned with the Democratic Party. But I think that there is absolute strength in bringing people together around issues that I care about and issues that drive me in my day-to-day work and I also think as Brian said you know a hundred percent of nothing is nothing and so back home in my district you know we I have a 10 county

district we've got a lot of small business owners we've got a lot of unique you know agricultural community we've got. I love my district. We've got everything. The more that I'm engaging with my colleagues across the spectrum, the better equipped I am to engage with my constituents across the spectrum. That's a really interesting point. Do you feel the same way, Brian? Absolutely. It's the job of a representative, and this is what the members of our caucus understand. And I wish everybody in Congress understood that when we cast a vote on the floor of the House, it's not to reflect our own personal views. We have to do the very best we can to be the collective voice of 700,000 plus people who we are their voice.

We're not supposed to be the voice of ourselves, we're supposed to be their voice. And sometimes that's hard because some of these issues are very controversial and you're only given two options, the A and A. I was gonna ask, how hard is it to be a moderate in Congress right now? Well, everybody likes the labels. And so I think depending upon the issue,

people sort of cast me in different buckets. I don't necessarily classify myself as a moderate or a centrist or, you know, any of the titles. I think first and foremost, I'm a pragmatist and, you know, I'm certainly more to the left or more to the right on certain issues, some more than others. But at the end of the day, what I am here to do is to govern. And I want to move the ball forward. I want to move forward with legislation that could be meaningful, that can address the issue at hand. And that requires being able to get enough people on board to pass a bill in the House and ensure that it can get a vote in the Senate. I'm focused on issues like climate change.

We have a crisis that we need to address, but we can't address it alone just as the Democratic Party. We have to find areas to bring partners across the spectrum, that there's really a difference between the act of governing and the act of advocating for things and our responsibility here is to govern. Let me ask you about that, Brian.

Climate change, that might be a tough one for you because so many Republicans are really opposed to doing much about climate change. That's not tough for me, I can tell you that. I'm way out in front on this. In fact, one of the one of the greatest accomplishments that I've had was I introduced something called the Market Choice Act. It's a carbon tax, a carbon pricing bill. Yes, you're right.

It's a very rare thing for a Republican to do. But what I wanted to do was to bring together the often disparate interest groups and lobbying groups, the environmentalists, the labor unions and the business community. And we put a concept forward that funds infrastructure. We all know that we need infrastructure badly. The question is, how do you finance it? We also know that we have a significant problem

with climate change and carbon emissions. And we also know we have great significant problem with climate change and carbon emissions. And we also know we have great challenges in growing our economy. So we were able to get the business community, the environmental community, and the labor community on board with a bill called the Market Choice Act. It was equally bipartisan, and it brought all the interest groups together. None of them got everything they wanted, but they got 70%, 75% of what they wanted. And I think that's really important because it shows that Democrats and Republicans can come together on a carbon tax, a carbon price,

that actually exceeds the standards set forth in the Paris Climate Accord. And just to add to what Brian was saying, Brian's proposal, Brian's bill, isn't contradictory to other efforts, in fact, can be complementary. And I have a bill that's also wholly bipartisan, and it's focused in the agricultural space in terms of how can we utilize our farmlands and our forest lands as great carbon markets and how can we bring the strength of our agricultural communities to bear in our efforts to get to net-zero carbon emissions.

And so, you know, my Bill, Brian's Bill, it's not going to solve the problem in a day, to bear in our efforts to get to net zero carbon emissions. And so, you know, my Bill, Brian's Bill, it's not gonna solve the problem in a day, but they are foundational building block pieces that we can layer, we can build a consensus around. We should note, you do have a sign behind you, Abigail, saying thank a farmer. It says, if you ate today.

Ah, if you ate today, thank a farmer. Yep. Let's talk about your careers for a farmer. It says if you ate today. Ah, if you ate today, thank a farmer. Yep. Let's talk about your careers for a minute. You were not in politics before you went into Congress. Abigail, you're a former CIA officer. Brian, you're a former FBI agent. How have those careers influenced how you feel about America and what's important going forward? It's a public service career. You know, the FBI, much like the CIA, where Abigail works, they're just amazing human beings. I consider it, I know Abigail does as well, the greatest honor of my life to serve alongside of amazing women and men doing all sorts of work

that most people will never know about. And they're keeping them safe and protecting them every day. They don't get nearly the credit that they deserve. And I'm very proud. It was the greatest job I've ever had and never will have. And I miss the people there. I try to see them as much as I can, those that are still assigned here to DC. But spending your life serving a cause bigger than yourself. I will tell you, I worked 14 years in the FBI, never heard any political discussions whatsoever, nobody cared. What party you were registered to, we all had a common mission to try to

protect and serve our nation. So it definitely carries forth in Congress because you have a certain mindset about how to serve the public and how to get things done. Well, and there was the common mission, I agree with everything Brian said, the common mission that drove us was the task at hand. It was the overarching mission of protecting our country, protecting people we would never meet.

And we did that with colleagues who had different skill sets and brought different things to the table. And we had to work together, in some cases, in these intricate puzzle pieces because of the different skill sets and the places that we were in the world. And one of the things that we frequently had at CIA, and I did some joint work with FBI,

so at least for the agents I worked with, this was certainly work with FBI so I, at least for the agents I worked with, this was certainly the case. You would sit around the table and talk about, you know, the plans that you had, the operations that you were going to be running, and you would try and say, well, what could go wrong? What are you missing? What could make this better? You would plan for the worst case because if you're not planning for the worst case, you're just not even planning. And I think that having the ability to sit around and have people poke holes in your ideas

and have people say, well, would this be better? Or have we thought about this? Because it was what kept people safe, that's a very normal experience for some of us. And so, to some degree, being able to say, well, I've got this idea for legislation, or I want to move forward with this. And when someone says, you know, why not this?

Or have you thought about this? Or hear people say, well, that's good, but let's think this through further. Like, it's a very natural thing. The point that Brian made that was a very good one is, you know, the the men and women of the intelligence community, law enforcement community do their job every day. And we did our jobs every day with a belief that our work mattered, with a belief that we were serving our country

and people beyond ourselves. And I was undercover for the entirety of the time that I was with the agency. And the things that I will go to my grave the most proud about in life are things that I will never be able to talk about. That's such a contrast to the position you're now in as members of Congress.

You've both talked about nuance and give and take and diversity of opinions and backgrounds. Was it a shock when you got to Congress, where so often debates are conducted with slogans rather than with some sophisticated grasp that we may have some idea from over there and some idea from over here that we can consider. Well when I was first campaigning I had an I went to an event and this gentleman said okay some yes or no questions and fired off some yes or no questions for some policy stance and that was the first moment where I thought boy this political thing is going to be really different from all of my experience because

for all of those questions I thought there's this is not a yes or no answer. There's new ones, there's detail, there's context and questions that I have before it's just a yes or no and so frequently that is absent and as we are voting on bills and there's only a yes or no you know we may vote yes or you may vote, but there's so much that goes into that vote and there's so many of these things Where you know what? I'm a yes. I like 80% of it and yes, maybe 20% I wouldn't have put in this bill, but that 80% is worth it. Yeah, and I would Second that you know, one of the things that I love about our problem service caucus our meetings are very very substantive Sometimes you can't tell who the Democrats

and Republicans are in that room. We check that at the door and we're very substantive and we wanna hear from people of different backgrounds and try to get to that best solution. Abigail referenced that in the CIA, that's exactly what we did in the FBI. Anytime we had a time sensitive crime problem, we would surround that table with people

from completely different backgrounds, because every one of us, depending on the family we grew up in, where we went to school, pain certain people may have experienced that others can't fathom. It all affects the paradigm and how we view a problem and how we view the solution of that problem.

And the more different perspectives you can get, the best investigative plan we were able to put together to try to get one step ahead of that criminal. And I know Abigail had, she just described a similar process of the CIA. That's, I kind of view our Problem Solvers Caucus as a legislative version of that. We're sharing a 2020 interview with Republican Brian Fitzpatrick and Democrat Abigail Spanberger on Let's Find Common Ground, I'm Ashley. I'm Richard. At a time of deep division, we discuss many positive ideas that appeal to a cross-section of listeners

of different political beliefs and backgrounds. We need that. And we welcome five-star ratings and enthusiastic reviews on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. And go to our website, commongroundcommittee.org, where you'll find more than a hundred different episodes and interviews. Many are with people from opposing parties and groups who work together across the divide. Now, more from our interview with members of Congress, Brian Fitzpatrick

and Abigail Spanberger. He's a Republican. She's a Democrat. Both are members of the bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus. We asked Abigail to tell us more about it. Both are members of the bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus. We asked Abigail to tell us more about it. You know, we get together at least once a week over usually very bad coffee and breakfast items. And we check in with each other. We know each other as people.

We talk about what's happening in our districts and we know what our interest areas are. You know, I have, there's a colleague in the problem solvers, I was gonna introduce a bill focused on military firefighters. And because I know him, I know he's a veteran and I know he's done other work as it relates to firefighters and as it relates to first responders. And so it wasn't even a moment's thought for me to determine that, you know,

this colleague would be a great potential co-lead on this bill that I wanted to make very bipartisan. Um, and having those types of just basic relationships, I think it helps when, you know, when somebody votes a different way or when you're actually arguing over policy, it's about the policy and you don't doubt the full person. You don't just say, oh, you know that Brian Fitzpatrick, he feels that way because, and you're just casting him as a character.

I might say, oh, Brian and I disagree on this one thing that we're talking about right now, but we've agreed on all these other things in the past. Why don't I use this as an opportunity to say, hey, Brian, can you walk me through your point of view on this? Is it hard for you to be a member of your party right now? I mean, first, Abigail, you were one of the few Democrats to vote against the stimulus bill in May, you've compromised on immigration,

to the irritation of progressives in the party. Are these tough votes? They're not for me because I want to do something. You mentioned immigration. Immigration is an issue that is used as a cudgel. It is used as a divisive issue. We put forth good legislation in the House of Representatives that was very bipartisan addressing the need for more H2A visas among our farm workforce because if you're not looking at the root causes of you know our quote-unquote immigration crisis you can't actually address it and we have employers here in the United States that want to hire people.

We have people who want those jobs. Let's make it possible for them to do it legally. Let's make it possible for employers to be able to find those workers. Let's make it possible for workers to be able to come here legally. And that's just one element I focused on the agriculture piece.

But that's a piece we can carve out and address. And it passed in the House, it was overwhelmingly bipartisan, but hopefully we'll do it again in the next Congress and it'll get a vote in the Senate. Okay, a lot of amens for both of you. We've listened to both of you agree with each other a lot. I have to ask this question as a skeptical journalist, what do you disagree with each other about? I'm not aware of any. I mean, I'm sure there are, right?

Of course, I mean, who agrees with anybody all the time? I mean, I think I could tell you where I agree with Abigail on, you know, helping veterans, for assistance to the farmers and the firefighters and national security and all those things. I mean, you look at all the bills that our Problem Solvers Caucus have advanced, there you have the areas where we agree.

And that's exactly the point. That's what we focus on. So I guess the fact that I can't tell you where I disagree with Abigail is sort of the point. I just pulled up one of those online, how often do they agree websites to see how much we agree or disagree? I'm scrolling through it. There's a couple of MTRs where we've disagreed, but we vote together. What are MTRs?

Those are their motion to recommit their procedural votes. But, but Brian, it looks as though we come together on a lot of the major vote categories. So. But Brian, how hard is it for you to be in the party of Donald Trump, who has really done very little to reach out to those with slightly more moderate views than his own? Yeah, I take the simple perspective I have, I think that both parties are broken. I really do believe that. In fact, that's why I felt I found it at home with the problem solvers. I don't believe that any one party has a monopoly on good ideas. I believe there are problematic individuals in both parties that say things that are not reflective of the rest of the caucus.

That happens all the time. It's certainly the case in the Democrat caucus and the Republican caucus. I registered as a Republican as a kid, 18 years old, because I believed in Ronald Reagan. He was someone who inspired me personally. And that's why I'm a Republican. And I'm not going to, you know, change my philosophy because somebody comes into the party and takes a different perspective. We all love our country and our caucus, and we want to try to find ways to come together and accomplish that. And by the way, I say this as a Republican, I want a healthy Democrat party in this country. And I think Democrats want a healthy Republican party in this country. And I think Democrats want a healthy Republican

party in this country, because that's where the differing ideas come. We don't want fighting. We don't want childish behavior, insults, disrespecting anybody else. But we should want at least two healthy caucuses that can challenge each other and cross-examine each other on each other's paradise. Abigale, Brian has said why he's a Republican. Why are you a Democrat? I'm a Democrat because I believe it's the party that's looking for, I believe it's the party of optimism, the party that believes that we have an opportunity and ability to create more opportunity and more growth, and to ensure that each generation has a chance at greater success than the one came before,

and that we, through looking through the eyes of people across the country and Ensuring that everybody can live up to their fullest potential that we can continue on our path of continued pursuit for goodness and greatness As a country and as a people And I and i'm sure there are people who classify themselves Who align with the republican party who would agree with everything I said and i'm sure there are people who classify themselves who align with the Republican Party who would agree with everything I said, and I'm sure there's people who view themselves as Democrats who might disagree with everything I just said. But that's the frame

that has brought me to be a Democrat. Quick question for each of you. What do you, Brian, what do you love about your job and what do you, what can't you stand about it? What do you, Brian, what do you love about your job and what do you, what can't you stand about it? I love being able to help people, especially people that are in a really dark place in their life, whether they lost a family member to addiction or lost a child to childhood cancer or somebody who's really in a tough spot and they need that light at the end of the tunnel to help them get through it. And being able to help them be that light by getting them involved in a piece of legislation

that might be done in the memory of their family member or their child. And it gets them excited, it gives them hope in a really dark place in their life. So that's been the greatest honor that I've had. What do I like least about my job? Being the target of a lot of anger over social media, it can get pretty ugly. And they always tell us, don't read your social media feeds,

but Abigail and I are human beings. Every once in a while, we take a peek. And there's a lot of vitro out there. So I think the best part of the job, and Brian touched on part of ensuring that the next family has that same opportunity or ensuring that the next family avoids that same heartache. And that's really, really amazing to hear if it's people or if it's communities like a particular county or group of people that we represent saying, this is a problem. Well you know, this is a problem

Well, okay. This is a problem. Let me dig into it. Let me learn about this issue and let's figure out if there's a place For legislating to address this challenge and that's that's a pretty spectacular Opportunity to have and what do you hate about your job? I'm gonna copy Brian on this one too social media, it's a wonderful thing for sharing, but it really is amazing just how, once you reduce things to a certain number of characters these days, you can just be so simplified in how everything is bad or everything is good.

You know, and people in my own party are mad because I said something a particular way or mad about something. And I'll say, well, what votes are you actually displeased with? And then it's, and then folks on the other side of the aisle. I mean, you're kind of always like a ping pong. Do both of you agree that there are issues that are being politicized that really shouldn't be? Yeah, how about all of them? Any of the politicized shouldn't be. I mean, that's again, I mean, this is I'm sure what frustrates Abigail as much as it

frustrates me. The people that come here for the right reasons, with a good perspective on the job, want to fix things. That's it. We don't want to not fix a problem so that they can campaign on it. When we don't fix immigration, people are suffering because of that. It may be great to run campaign ads on, but my goodness, when there are people here, Dreamers, for example, Abigail and I both voted for the Dream Act, how can we not fix that? You know, I mean, it's beyond the pale for me that so many of these things can't get fixed.

Anytime politics enters the fray and we say, well, it's an election year, we're not gonna act, Abigail and I are elected for two years, not one. Senators are elected for six years, not five. And the presidents are elected for two years, not one. Senators are elected for six years, not five. And the presidents are elected for four years, not three. We have to do our job up until the end. And politicking and gridlock is unacceptable.

And it's been, and you can probably tell, I've been venting on this point a lot because, and I know Abigail feels the same way. When we go back home, anybody with a heart and a soul that goes back and hears these stories is heartbroken. You're heartbroken because these are individuals who have built up businesses,

their families are dependent upon them. I mean, it's a huge ripple effect. And the fact that both parties, by the way, are playing games rather than actually fixing the problem is very, very frustrating. Bravo, Brian. I think he pretty much covered it. When things as basic as voting or the post office or information that should be keeping our country safe coming in from our intelligence and law enforcement communities, when that is used as a political tool, that becomes very dangerous very quickly. And it's something that we really need to

reject and rebuke and address into the future. Thanks very much for joining us on Let's Find Common Ground. Thank you for having us. Thanks for your time. That's our 2020 interview with Democrat Abigail Spanberger and Republican Brian Fitzpatrick. This is Let's Find Common Ground, a production of Common Ground Committee.

Thank you to Eric Olson, Penny Walker, and our sound designer Miranda Schaeffer. Andrew Schur composed our theme music. I'm Ashley Miltite. I'm Richard Davies. Thanks for listening. This podcast is part of the Democracy Group.