Let's Find Common Ground - Professor Ilyasa Shabazz, Dr. Brian Williams: What Racism Means to Me

Episode Date: June 18, 2020

Nationwide protests against racism, police violence, and racial inequality have shaken the nation to its core. Support for Black Lives Matter and anger over police treatment of African-Americans grew dramatically in recent weeks. Outrage over the disturbingly graphic deaths of George Floyd and other black men and women have changed the debate over racism. In this podcast, we look for potential areas of common ground, and consider the prospects for lasting change. Our guests are Ilyasah Shabazz, and Brian Williams, MD. Professor Shabazz often speaks about the remarkable legacy of her father, Malcolm X. She promotes higher education for at-risk youth and interfaith dialogue to build bridges between cultures for young leaders of the world. Doctor Williams led the trauma team that treated police officers ambushed by a sniper in Dallas in 2016 - the largest loss of life for US law enforcement since 9/11. "Education and discussion is a start, but not enough," Dr. Williams tells us. "A lot of us have been educating and talking and waiting for a long long time. Now is the time for action." If we're taught hate we're never going to solve any problems. It looks like that's what the young people are saying and it's great, says Professor Shabazz. "We need our young people to have their voices, to speak up and help us make change." In this podcast, we discuss the findings of two studies related to racism: Research on children's perceptions of black and white dolls, and the 40-year U.S. Public Health Service study of syphilis in Macon County, Alabama.

Have you been rethinking your views of how America should work? The role of the police, the extent of racism in our society. Today we ask two African-American thinkers and activists a personal question for all of us to consider. What racism means to me? This is Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Ashley Miltite. I'm Richard Davies. is let's find common ground. I'm Ashley Miltite. I'm Richard Davies. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, response to recent events is a common ground moment. Our guests are Ilyasa Shabaz and Dr. Brian Williams.

Professor Shabaz promotes social justice and higher education for at-risk youth. She teaches at John J College of Criminal Justice in New York, and she's the author of the memoir Growing Up X. She's often asked to speak about the legacy of her father, Malcolm X. Dr. Brian Williams is associate professor of trauma and acute care surgery at the University of Chicago Medical Center, he read the trauma team that treated police officers ambushed by a sniper in Dallas in 2016, the largest loss of life for US law enforcement since 9-11. First question to Iliasa. How do you think the national discussion about racism

has changed over the last 50 years or so? Well, I think that especially seeing the slow, horrific murder of George Floyd, that people are certainly more open to hear about and learn about the injustices and the complaints that many people were talking about. Even when we look at the phrase, Black Lives Matter, prior, when you hear that, a lot of people that I know, they would say, oh, come on, all lives matter. But now they understand why people were saying that Black Lives Matter, because for so long, it just didn't seem like it did because I think being at home self-isolating, wondering if we're going to survive this pandemic, are we going

to live or are we going to die? And having this time in our hands to focus on how these four police officers just stuck the life out of one person was just, whoa, it was just so much. Brian, how do you feel things have changed? Do you agree with Iliasa when she says that more people are open to this phrase, Black Lives Matter. I definitely agree that people are more open to discussing racism in general,

and also what I think has changed is the variety of voices that you're hearing from that are condemning this act that happened with the murder of George Floyd and also connecting the dots to other incidents like that in the past because what I've seen Pass events that they were always looked at in isolation We looked at Michael Brown as one in Freddie Gray as another incident But for me these were a continuation of a much larger narrative that I felt was lost in this discussion. So that's the huge change that I see with this current, in the current climate. Do you think the police are the problem, the primary problem? You know, that's, I think it's really important how we frame that narrative.

So when you ask me, do I think that the police are the problem? I can say, emphatically, no, the police are not the problem, but policing and the lack of understanding of the history of policing in this country and how it has been meant to isolate and control black Americans. That lack of understanding and reform is a problem. And yes, there are bad police, right? And we sit in a focus on those individuals with incidents like this happen.

This one officer, his actions have had huge international repercussions, but also we can bring some good of this by taking this collective energy from around the world to reform policing and reform systemic racism. Ili also as an educator do you agree with that? I would agree certainly with Dr. Williams the policing reform education there are so many reasons. Also, education and discussion, that's just a start, but it's not enough. A lot of us have been educating and talking and waiting for a long, long time. Now is the time for action.

It is time for us collectively as a society to recognize that there are tremendous gaps that exist, that disadvantaged black people, because of policies that were intentionally set generations ago. So those systems need to be reformed. Yes, that's right. They need to be reformed. You know, my premise has always been education because for me, my parents make sure that I learned

at home in addition to going to school because the educational curriculum are absolutely incorrect and accurate. If we are taught that black people are inferior or all the negative things that we're taught about blacks, right, then there is going to be less sensitivity, less respect, so many things. Education to me is extremely important and that's one of the things that I've continually fought for. You know, not just talking about accomplishments that Blacks may have made in February, but making sure that the educational curriculum is inclusive, even when it comes to police

training. The information provided is inaccurate. We have these unconscious biases. And so I've just seen education as being one of the biggest challenges. My father said, if you put a knife in my back, nine inches and pull it out, six inches, the knife is still in my back, right? We still have to address these issues that have happened.

And it all starts with being misininformed, miseducated about you know so many things, if we want to talk about Africa right, if we want to talk about slavery, when to talk about the foundation of this modern world in America, we have to remember that there were indigenous people who were already here, you know, already making significant contributions to world history and society and had it not been to them, we would not have all the things that we have today. Do you, both of you, Brian and Eliasa, see this as a potential common ground moment that these protests have got the world's attention. Are there things that you think might be possible now that were not three weeks ago, four weeks ago?

Yes, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. It's a miracle because now people's eyes are open. Now you can say, look, this is what happened to Eric Garner. They're like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize this is what happened. Right? And now we can say, this is what Malcolm was saying. And it's like, oh my gosh, I saw Malcolm was something else. Now people are so much more open to understanding the challenges. I just want to say that Brian's beifers just gone off. Brian is a trauma surgeon.

He's on call. Are we still good to go, Brian? We're still good to go. That was just a FYI type of pace. I know we have it on vibrates. I apologize how that's to do there. But to answer your question, I absolutely did this as a common ground moment. And there's certain things

that Leasa said that resonated when she talked about education. I completely agree on that. And it's so indebted is that she mentioned her father because just yesterday prior to you asking if I could do this podcast, I recommended her father's autobiography to people to read. And I said, you know, you may have this one dimensional view of who he was and what he represented, but you know, read this book and watch the evolution of a man and how you can use that and apply those principles in your in your own life. And as far as what I could do now, I can do three weeks ago. I don't think I would have gone on social media and recommended 12 books on racism for everybody to read, right?

I'm cognizant of my public perception as a doctor and a trauma surgeon and as an academic surgeon and as an educator and you know, I want to to Make society better, but I also recognize that I'm viewed a certain way and I don't want that the reflect poorly upon my institution, you know, but now it's okay Like okay, after this I can get on social media and just list You know if you want to learn about racism read these 15 books that the new Jim Crow Slavy by another name the autobiography of Malcolm makes, and bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, and nobody blinks, right? Like you're not thank you, but then you get thanked for that as opposed to getting twolled. So that would not have happened three weeks ago.

That's so interesting that you felt that you've had to tread such a fine line between what you say publicly when you when you speak about these issues and then your work life. And it's funny because before people would have heard, I've had some people criticize me and tell me that I am kind of radical when things I say. And I'm like, you think I'm radical? I think I've been very restrained. I certainly try to speak truth to power, but I want to be respectful and try to have a constructive, safe dialogue about it without compromising my values.

So you have to make a decision. Do you want to be right all the time or do you want to be effective? Do you want to tell people why they need the change or do you want to get them the change by meeting them where they are? And I think it comes from being a doctor and being a black male doctor

that that carries with it a certain sort of expectation that people place upon you about how you should behave and what you should do and what you can do and what you can and can say. Billie also do you feel that? I've never been like that and so I am with most people would never believe I'm a loner you know I and mostly people like oh no you're not we're you're so shabble you're a social product like no I'm really not I know how to socialize because I come from a large family of women.

I have five sisters, but I speak up. I think it's important for young people to find their voice. For me, it's always been an issue of wanting to see young children happy about who they are. And I'm very fortunate that my mother made sure why have I went to these beautiful prep schools and had a great education that I also would come home

and they would be shake on Ahmed Topfeet who would teach us about Africa, who would teach us about Islam. We had this beautiful statues of women of the diaspora in our home. I grew up really with a great sense of who I am. I mother make sure that what each of her six daughters learned about the significant contributions that women made to the world, the significant contributions that the diaspora, the African diaspora,

made to the world and the same with Islam. And so I grew up with a very healthy sense of who I am. And I never felt like I had to be quiet. Elias, you've said that when we teach people to hate others, we also teach them to hate themselves and we must do better. Well, absolutely. I mean, why are we teaching our children to hate? Right?

It speaks to my mother making sure that we love ourselves, because when you love yourself, then you know how to love and then you love others. When you love yourself and you see injustice or suffrage happening to someone else, then you want to do something to help because you love that person because you've been taught laugh. And so if we're taught, hey, we're never going to solve any problems. And it looks like that's what the young people are saying. And it's great.

Thank goodness because we get our young people are saying. And it's great, thank goodness, because we need our young people to have their voices, to speak up and help us make change. And my father said that these young people were going to get sick and tired and recognize that the old way of doing things is not going, is no longer going to work, that the old people have misused their

power. And so now it's time for change. Your listening to Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Richard. And I'm Ashley, more of you by Common Ground Committee. It's public events, inspire citizens and leaders to make progress on issues through civil public discourse. Bringing light not heat to public discourse, that's our motto. We put forums together where we bring panelists from opposite sides of a tough issue. Please welcome Secretary Condoleezza Rice. Please welcome Secretary John Kerry.

Chris Wallace, Maggie Caterman, Barton Frank, Larry Cudlow. But I would give you a lot of running room on the personal tax on it. If you give me my 15% corporate tax, with the right tradeoff we could do the net. I think there's a deal. I think there's a deal to do with that. Watch full events online at commongroundcommittee.org or on our common ground committee YouTube channel. Now more of our interview with Ilias Ashabar and Brian Williams. Brian you sort of touched on this just now when you talked about prior to this time being

a bit careful because of your professional profile. When it comes to slogans like white silences, white violence, for example, I think there are some people who are quite scared of that or it makes them feel defensive. What do you think about that? I would say that discomfort, that's speaking volumes. Individuals that feel uncomfortable with those sorts of slogans, they need to stop and think about what it isn't about that that makes them feel uncomfortable. That is a time for introspection. That's a time to look at their own biases. And then once they've thought about it, then what are they going to do about it?

So in the past, I spent a lot of my time trying to make everyone around me feel comfortable. Right? I felt like my job was like, you know, you don't feel afraid of me. You're going to be okay. I don't feel that way anymore. It's not my job to make you feel comfortable. It's my job to live my authentic self. And I'm always standing on a side of justice and my job is to every day when I wake up, I want to do what little thinking I do to help create a just society. And I recognize that that will make some people uncomfortable. And I recognize that that will make some people uncomfortable.

And I recognize that some people may not like me or what I am doing. However, the end goal is not for me to elevate myself in the video, but what I can do to uplift society. And if I see focused on that, then I go to bed at night knowing that I'm living my truth and doing what's best to uplift humanity. Sounds like this moment has changed you, Brian,

and maybe a reminder of what happened to you in 2016 when you worked as a trauma surgeon in Dallas. It's amplified a change that occurred for me. It's been almost four summers ago. Similar thing happened. This is the day after Philando Castile was killed in Minnesota, not very far from where George Floyd was killed. So that happened on July 6th,

and then on July 7th, there were protests nationwide against police brutality. The protest in Dallas turned deadly. There was a sniper there that shot 12 police officers, and I was working that night. And I led the team that cared for seven of the 12 officers that were shot in three of those officers that we cared for died. So for me, there's a lot going off. You personally and professionally that just, uh, exploded with Exploded with that with that shooting and then those deaths and you know, I don't

Cry but that night after I talked to one of the families. I was in the back hallway on the floor crying About what had happened And then Afterwards at a press conference a few days later, which I initially did not want to attend But my wife when I told her she said like okay, you're going to that press conference The world needs to see that there was a black trauma surgeon there that night Trying to save these white police officers. You don't have to speak. You just you just sit there have a camera on you Which is what my initial intent. But as I sat there, and the press conference proceeded,

and I heard the discussion, so that was my first time when I spoke up. I was done trying to make people feel safe, and I spoke up about police brutality and systemic racism and gun violence. And this happened at a televised press conference. I had no plans for this. And then after that, my life changed.

We wanted to or not. Yeah, you said, I mean, you essentially said, I support you speaking of police officers, but I also fear you. Right. So that was me speaking my truth. I've had my own run-ins with police officers. I know what's happened with my family.

I know and I've no option all the videos in the past. I have the oral history of what goes on in black communities. So there is that inherent in here, fear from what I know in my own experience that yes, this could be a lethal interaction with police officers. But I did say that. I respect you because I went to the Air Force Academy. I served in the military. My father was in the military.

I respect anyone who served and puts on uniform. That includes police officers. I get that. I get that sort of sacrifice. But we can't ignore the fact that many of these deaths were not justified. Like, they weren't justified at the hands of police. We can't ignore that.

And that's what I said during that conference and that resonated with a lot of different people for different reasons. Iliasa said she's been true and spoke up from day one, that was not me, right? That was not me. Small circles maybe, but publicly no. But from that point on, it's been an evolution

of until now, where yes, I step into the arena and have these discussions. But this year that I was last year and then year prior and it's continued to grow. But right now, I just feel alive, I feel authentic, I feel like I'm contributing to humanity. And I had no intention of going back to the way I was. For a while I did, I tried, but that just was not going to work. So now, I will say that at this point, I am comfortable being uncomfortable. And that's really the big challenge because I have also a lot of friends or, you know, when I was going to school, my school was an all-girl school. We would go to the boys school. And I know for a lot of the African-American boys that were in the schools, what they

would do is they would emulate their professors. And they could never be their authentic self because your taught that, you know, being black is not good, right? You're taught so many things about your blackness, which is your identity. So for me, it's always been that I want to see children happy. I want them to know that they're worthy of all of these great things. I want them to look in the mirror and love themselves

because the research that was conducted on black and white dolls that were identical, but the spin was one was lighter than the other, and all of these black children were picking the white doll, and that just speaks to the institutional systemic racism that a young child would think that the black doll was bad, dirty, and not smart and ugly, and that the white doll was wonderful, great, and just perfect. And then when they said, well, which doll are you? And just we want everyone to love who they are, right? And the joy and the benefits of just that. Ashley and I are both white journalists, and we think we know a lot, and we're pretty well educated. What do you think that we should understand

about race that we don't? Personally, I think that it starts with, you know, most white people think that being Egyptians, the people who build the pyramids were white, right? But the our logic will say that Egypt is an Africa and that you have to have melanism in your skin, which means that you're dark. And so just all of these ancient characters, like when we say the founders of math and the founders of biology or from Greece, not there from Africa. And then when we look at slavery, let's acknowledge that had it not been for these people that we would not have the opportunity to call the United States of America our home today.

So let's honor those people who cultivated the soil, who make these contributions to help make America what it is today. And Brian? We're talking about, it's all about education and all the different forms it comes in, the perceptions of the others. You know, I'll use an example that even shows one of my own blind spots is, you know, as a doctor having gone through medical school and all the education, you know, I always thought that the extent of experimentation on black Americans began to end with Tuskegee.

It was about a 20 year study. They had a cure for syphilis, which is penicillin. Anybody can get this. But instead of giving this to their black research subjects, they gave them placebo so that they can study the natural course of the disease, which can be deadly, called neurociplus and many other complications. And this was run by the United States Public Health Service. So this is the US, the federal government denied an existing cure for this disease. And as you can expect, many suffered and died, their children and partners were infected with the disease as well. So most people are aware of that, but there are so many other instances of exploitation and experimentation on black Americans that occurred before and even occurred after.

For example, in the anti-bellum times, they're performing surgery on black women, vaginal surgery without anesthesia to perfect a technique, which is now the standard repair for Besco-Vadjima Fistula, which is a connection between the vagina and the bladder. But the surgeon that did this would have the woman held down and restrain and do the surgery over and over again without anesthesia, when anesthesia was available.

Up until the 80s there were still performing unauthorized sterilization on black women and teenagers in the South. It's part of the eugenics to better the race. So you know within our lifetime, like the 80s not that long ago this was still happening. However, I never learned about any of that in medical school. And it seems to me to be a real luckyance to take a look of the mirror and see all the worst bruises on American history. But I agree with the young kids, the kids out now, they're not having it. They are aware, they are courageous, and they are not being silent. And I admit this to the bodyguard, when I go speak to colleges and medical schools, I say, you know what?

I know you invited me here to speak, but I'm inspired by all of you, because you are going to do now, when it took me 50 years to get to that point, and I am inspired to keep pushing. Yeah. That's right. Have each of you felt the presence of racism in your own lives over the years when you were growing up and later than that perhaps? Well, you know, for me,

I didn't feel it. And it wasn't until I remember being at this restaurant and it was after Donald Trump won. And there were these two gentlemen that were saying things and it made me very uncomfortable. And then they were leaving. And so I walked up to say something like, you know, hey guys, what was that all about? And so hang on. So you approached them about something they said. And they.

Yeah, I will back to you. Well, so one of them had on the hat that said, make America great again. And the other one had an English accent. And so there were same things. And I kept looking at them like, I don't say what I think you're saying. And it was just hinting at something

negative about me being there. And I just decided that I was going to go out and find an excuse me, so what was it that you said? And it took all of him not to do something to me. And that's what got me like, wow, I was a little frightened. I felt it my entire life, either in some explicit form or implicit. And I think I grew up being angry all the time and wanting to fight everyone and beat the racism out of them. And then I came to a point in my teenage years where I just sort of accepted the way it

is. And I think I learned how to function within that system by not speaking up and just navigating all the different barriers and challenges, but I handed over who I was in order to exist. You hand over your identity for acceptance. And I recognize that that now, but it's all part of the journey that's prepared me for where I am now and able to speak about this because that narrative I think resonates with people. And I don't get angry now. I know it sounds kind of two of it, but I, I feel some empathy for these people. I'm really struck by the difference in in the way both of you have seen this apply to your own

lives. Do you feel that that many people are objectifying the black experience over simplifying it? identifying the black experience over simplifying it, without realizing that everyone's view of life, everyone's experience in life is different. I think most people though are like Dr. Williams. And I think mine is just a little different because I must have lived in a fantasy because my mother made sure that my image of me was intact.

Most people did not grow up with their image intact. My mother almost went overboard with it. And I think when you come to the reality, you can either be traumatized or you can do something about it. And I think when you come to the reality, you can either be traumatized or you can do something about it. I grew up very happy. I grew up very loved. My mother over loved me. And I'm so grateful for it. And I always wanted to make sure that other people have the same. So, I understand so many of my friends, and I've even heard so many people of color blacks primarily say that now they can't speak up because for a long time, if they were successful, they didn't have to. And they didn't even want to talk about it, you know. And

so now they're understanding how important it is. And I think what's interesting about hearing the two of us talk right now is that you're clearly seeing that black folks are not a monolithic group, right? But the common ground with two of us, it's about identity, it's about service, it's about humanity. So despite our disparate views of it, you're looking at the same picture from two different angles, from different lenses. In the end, it's about who you are,

who you want to be, and how you want to impact the world. It's exciting to see how this world is changing. I feel hopeful for my daughter now. I always worry about this world that she's inheriting, but she's growing up at a time where she's seeing so much, and she understands that people can make a difference, and that there are movements that our people are committed to making the world a better place. So I'm going to

over love the heck out of her. You can do anything you can be anybody and do anybody tell you otherwise. You have to let her sing her ancestors in a positive light. That's extremely important. Right. Why were they taken? What were they doing before? They extremely important. Why were they taken? What were they doing before? They were taken. What were they doing before they were enslaved? They were inventing. And so we understand that the tradition was

universal spirit and intellect, God and scholarship. And so that gives you a great sense of the floor because it's wisdom and it's believing in a creator. Thank you very much. This has been a really enlightening and wonderful loving conversation. It was an honor and inspirational and I learned a few things. It was a pleasure to meet you to Dr. Brian Williams. Yes, hope we can connect to get in the future. It was a pleasure to meet you too Dr. Brian William. Yes, hope we can connect again in the future. Yeah, thank you so much both of you. Iliasa Shabazz, a Dr. Brian Williams

on Let's Find Common Ground. Our podcast are a production of Common Ground Committee. Find out more about our mission and our events at commongroundcommittee.org. Subscribe to Let's Find Common Ground, wherever you listen to podcasts. Reviews and downloads help many more people find us. Thanks for listening.