Let's Find Common Ground - Protecting American Democracy— The Military's Role: Retired Brigadier General Steven Anderson

Episode Date: February 17, 2022

What is the military’s role in protecting democracy? The question took on a new sense of urgency in the months after the riot at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, 2020. A deep partisan divide opened up over what actually happened on that day, how to describe the chaotic events, and who should be held responsible. After decades of service in the U.S. military, retired Brigadier General Steven Anderson decided to speak out about the threat of future insurrections and the possibility that a coup might succeed next time. "There is a significant threat being posed to our nation and our democracy," he says. While some of those arrested and charged in the attack were veterans or even active members of the military, General Anderson says America's armed forces can make a constructive contribution in the future. In this podcast, he tells us that The Pentagon should order a civics review for all members— uniformed and civilian— on the U.S. Constitution and electoral integrity. We also discuss how the military can foster diversity and common ground.

What is the military's role in protecting democracy? The question took on a new sense of urgency in the months after the riot at the US Capitol on January 6th of last year. A deep partisan divide opened up over what happened that day, how to describe the chaotic events, and who should be held responsible. This is Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Ashley Milntite. And I'm Richard Davies. After decades of service in the US military, retired Brigadier General Stephen Anderson decided to speak out about the threat of future insurrections and the possibility of an

attempted coup. General Anderson did TV interviews and commentaries and co-authored a widely read opinion piece in The Washington Post. In this episode, he tells us that America's armed forces can play a constructive role in strengthening our public institutions and finding common ground. Richard, you get the first question. When most of us consider the role of the US military, we think about foreign threats to our national security. What does the US Constitution say about the military's function during a domestic

crisis? Does the military have a role? I sworn oath 43 years ago to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. 43 years ago when I took that oath we were concerned of course about the foreign threats particularly the Soviet threat that was posed at that time. Never in my wildest imagination that I think that I'd be talking at any time about a significant domestic threat. But I believe that that's what is being posed against our nation right now, a domestic cancer that is growing within, and to the extent that the military can maintain order and peace internally and do the right things to ensure that we protect our nation and our democracy from internal threats.

You know, that's what we need to do and what we need to be focused on. And what about your personal political views? Army officers are not supposed to get involved in politics. So they can control the military as an absolute foundational aspect of our democracy. You know, I can tell you that my 31 years in military, I never knew the political persuasion of my bosses or my subordinates or anybody. I mean, you might occasionally hear something, but you know, it's not the kind of thing that was was talked about We were very apolitical in fact there were there were those who thought that it wasn't even appropriate for military members to vote

back in those days But I was conservative Republican and I didn't share that with anyone, but that's how I voted I voted for Reagan and both Bushes and Mitt Romney and everyone up until 2016. And then I realized that the Republican Party was taking a decided turn to the right. And I did not support President Donald Trump. But I remained, you know, a political until the events of the Sixth January last year. And then I realized that people like me needed to speak up. So I did that. It's because of my perception that there is a significant domestic threat

being posed to our nation and our democracy at this time. Well, you just alluded to this, but in our democracy, it's really critical to keep the military out of partisan politics, isn't it? What can the military do to keep it apolitical? A. Policical. Well, we need to get extremists out of our ranks. We need to maintain that apolitical element of military. We need to maintain our neutrality. And there is no room in the military for people that have extreme reviews or in particular are members of extremist organizations. Now the FBI maintains a list of gangs and extremist organizations.

Military members should not be a member in any way, shape, or form of such organizations. So if the FBI found that a certain active member of the military was involved in an extremist organization or an organization that they thought was in some way a threat to the security and democracy of the United States, you think that person should be kicked out? Yes, I do. I do. There is no room for having people with those kind of organizations, even memberships. Now, Department of Defense recently published some guidance saying that they could be members of groups, such extremist groups, but they could not be active members. In other words, they couldn't attend meetings. They couldn't, you know, advocate on social media, et cetera, et cetera. I submit to you that that is not far enough. They shouldn't be members at all. Imagine the potential impact on the unit cohesion morale. If you

had a company commander or a platoon sergeant that was an avowed member of the KKK. I mean, that would just simply be antithetical to everything that our democracy is all that and what our military tries to achieve. Serving in the military for 31 years was the most profound privilege of my life. Serving in the military is a privilege and we can never forget that. It is not in an alienable right. And that is at odds with being a member of an extremist group. There is one problem with that approach, and that is how do you define an extremist group? I would say the standard is the FBI's list of gangs and extremist groups.

If you're a member of a group that's on that listing, there are hundreds of them. I truly realize the difficulty of trying to determine what's the extremist, what's not. Let's not get involved in that. Let's let the FBI do that. That's their job. If a US president is fermenting or encouraging

some kind of riot or revolt. At what point would you say it's the military's job to step in? And what should they actually do? What's the appropriate action for them to take? Well, the appropriate action is probably in action, okay, in that we're not a police force. We're a military force, okay. So if you have a president like Trump who would try to use, for instance,

a military to seize voting machines, that's not a legal order. And our soldiers, sailors, Airman Marines, should know that that would not be a legal order for us to get involved, to be steizing voting machines and somehow get involved in domestic elections. So the answer to your question

is probably action through in-ech. Don't take anything or take any directive that is deemed to be illegal, immoral, unethical or antithetical to our constitution. You've spoken out publicly on the need for accountability for what happened last year on January 6th. What should that involve? In order to find a common ground, I think that one thing hopefully everybody can agree to is that we need to take appropriate action and hold those accountable who did the wrong thing on the 6th of January. And there's 700 folks or so that have been charged with various Sunday crimes associated with that.

And that's good. They need to be held accountable. I would submit to you, though, that we have not held accountable the leaders, that fan the flames of insurrection. And unfortunately, that's a difficult place to find common ground,, there's essentially one party My former party that is essentially done nothing but

Try to downplay what happened in the 6th century In fact in some cases they've been celebrated the people that have been you know charged with crime So I mean, this is a very difficult place to find common ground I totally admit, agree. I would hope that people would agree that holding those accountable that committed crimes against the United States is a good thing. In the case of something like January 6th, what is the appropriate role for the military?

Well, like I said, the appropriate role is no role. I mean, we're supposed to stand back and, you know, provide support as required. I mean, for instance, it would have been an appropriate role in the sixth January for the National Guard to deploy to the Capitol to help defend the Capitol. If there was another kind of a threat, a cyber security threat, or some kind of a march or attempt to take over an installation or whatever, obviously, we would take appropriate defensive actions to ensure that that didn't happen. But appropriate role is that we're not involved. To prevent the problem that extremists could be in the military, even in fairly senior jobs

in the military, what should the US armedS. Armed Forces be doing to prevent that, not only now, but for the future? Education, we need to make sure that our soldiers understand Civics 101. We have a beautiful democracy. It's been working for hundreds of years. It will continue to do so. But the knowledge of Cigarette Civics 101, I believe there's a lot of soldiers, sailors,

airmen, and reans who are confused. And they, specifically on the point of allegiance to a person or a party versus allegiance to the Constitution in our country. And they think that because a person like Donald Trump is a commander-in-chief, oh, well, if he's given the orders, then I got to obey them because that's nice for a note to them. That's not right. You didn't say no to a person. We do not have kings in this country. We have a Constitution.

We have a country. And I mean, I'm a West Point graduate. And our motto is duty on our country. We have a constitution, we have a country, you know, and I mean, I'm a West Point graduate and you know, our motto is duty on our country. It's not duty on our party. Soldiers need to understand that distinction. And I think that when they do, they will get it. But, you know, education, I think is really the primary way to just teach people, and remind people how beautiful our democracy is, how the innate integrity that is built into our election systems, the checks and balances of our government, and the processes in which we administer elections. And do you think that education needs to begin in high school because there are plenty

of members of the ministry who do not go to college? Absolutely. in high school because there are plenty of members of the military who do not go to college. Absolutely. I mean, I took civics when I was in seventh grade, but education needs to start at the beginning. It should be a part of it, and throughout my time in military, I don't recall any specific training on civics 101. I mean, there are probably a lot of people in a military that haven't gotten that kind of exposure through high school. And we need to fix that. And I think that a lot of the things that happen in our society today are based on ignorance. Our podcast is Let's Find Common Ground.

Our guest is retired Brigadier General Stephen Anderson. I'm Richard. I'm Ashley. I'm Richard. I'm Ashley. We've published more than 50 episodes of our podcast with a range of terrific guests all discussing different aspects of finding common ground. If you like what you hear and want to support our work, consider making a donation to Common Ground Committee. We're a non-profit organisation. Go to our website at commongroundcommity.org.

Now back to our interview with Retired Brigadier General, Stephen Anderson. Our podcast is Let's Find Common Ground, and Common Ground Committee was started because of this crisis of bitter divides in the United States. And one of those divisions is where people live and who people mix with. During World War II, and right up until the 1970s, there was a military draft in this country. Now we have an all-volunteer military. Has that in itself created divisions at times between the military and the rest of American society. I think that that probably is a valid

point, a valid question. We have changed the demographic of the military because we don't have a draft anymore. We tend to get more folks from particular areas if we find a lot of people that come in the military have family members that were in the military that inspired them to do so. Like my family, my dad, my grandfather, my wife's family, you know, we've got dozens of members of the military and there are a lot of people that don't, to the Donald Trump. I mean, there's not a member of his family that I'm aware of, this ever serving the military has ever served today,

a public service anywhere, any form of government. So I do think that a draft might help that, but I'm not saying we need to go back to that. I believe that through education, we can address the issues that we need to. When you were in the military, especially when you were younger and first joined, I believe that through education we can address the issues that we need to. When you were in the military, especially when you were younger and first joined, were you finding common ground with others? You might not have met otherwise?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the military is a profound example of bringing people from disparate backgrounds, races, colors and creeds together to achieve a common ground. There's so much this society can learn from the military. Look at how we've integrated black soldiers into the military. That was, we've empowered women. Now we're empowering gay and lesbian members of the military now. I mean, we've done a lot of things to help our society to grow.

And we've been essentially a great testing ground, if you will, for how you can bring people together from diverse backgrounds and have them focus on a common mission or objective, work together and say, hey, you know, these guys are, you know, the guys are pretty good. I mean, I've got nothing in common with this guy that grew up in the inner streets of New York City. But Doug, you know, he's a hell of a good soldier or she's a hell of a good soldier or, you know, we can, we can work together. And that's how I mean, I think that's, you know, one of the, the issues that, with common ground is that we tend to gravitate to those that look like us and talk like us and think

like us. And so when you bring people together in the military, you help break down a lot of those barriers. You've mentioned that you had family members in the military. What prompted you to join the armed forces? Free education. My dad was a Korean war veteran veteran and he was very proud of the fact that he worked his way through college. He went to Northwestern University, DEMONOT, a GI Bill. My parents never had to pay a dime.

I was enamored with that. I was looking for ROTC scholarships and then I got a West Point of Poem. That was really kind of what motivated me to tell the truth. And I didn't realize that I would enjoy this much as I ended up doing. And you stayed in the military for a long time. Why? Because I loved it.

Some of the reasons I've touched on here is that you're working with people from all kinds of different backgrounds, all kinds of experiences. And it's a great melting pot for our country. And diversity is a strength of our country. Not a weakness. There's some people who would argue that. Not at all. And that's what diversity is what makes a military great.

It makes us the best military in the world. I always enjoyed the kind of people that you could work with in the military, the kind of things that we were doing, the educational opportunities that were just incredible, and just all kinds of opportunities that might not have been afforded to be otherwise. So I found it was wonderful, wonderful 31 years,

and I'm very, very proud of my service. And are my right in thinking that you joined after the draft ended, right? Yeah, I joined in 1974. Well, I went to West Point in 1974, but the draft, I think, ended just shortly thereafter. But yeah, it was all the volunteer army by the time I graduated from West Point in 1978. You know, I bet when your dad joined, you know, for so long long the military was almost universally regarded as a force for good, right? Most everyone had someone in their family who had served, knew someone who had served.

In the 70s, that thinking was a little bit different. I just wonder what it was like joining at that time. It was difficult because, I mean, the post-VNOM era was tough. I mean, I was spit on in Times Square, you know, wearing a cadet uniform, you know, walking around down there, back in the mid-70s, you know, and, you know, called a baby killer and things like that, you know. But that all changed, I think, really, with Ronald Reagan and the resurrection of the military, and, you know, the way that we rebuilt our military army and Air Force Navy Marines after Vietnam and some truly brilliant Americans that were architects of rebuilding our military and making it what it is. Moving to overseas, the crisis right now over Ukraine has prompted a vigorous debate in

this country about what is the proper US response. When there's a crisis overseas, is that an opportunity to find common ground? Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things that our nation has done very well is, you know, we've responded external threats in a unified banner. 7th of December 1941 on 9-11, you know, I mean every time that we, something like this happens, our nation, we come together, you know, and we work together to achieve a common ground. And, you know, I certainly hope that it's not going to be that kind of a moment for us here

in Ukraine. But I definitely would like to say that we can find common ground and how we respond to this Russian aggression. You've said, and I quote, ultimately, our military is merely a reflection of us, you and me in America, and that the misinformation and hateful rhetoric that infects our country and our political discourse, weakens our national defense and vitalizes our adversaries. Talk about that for a minute. Well, I think we're seeing a manifestation of that right now with what Putin is doing in the Ukraine. I believe that he sees this as weak.

We can't find common ground and that we won't be unified in a response to his aggression. He realizes that we have been weakened by this hateful rhetoric and political discourse that so discolors, you know, what's going on in our society right now. And I think he's taken advantage of that. To me, it's a profound threat to our national defense. We're empowering our adversaries by our inability to find common ground and work together. You mentioned that you joined the military in 1974. That was a very dark time for the United States.

A president had been forced from office. The US was in the final throws of many years of involvement in Vietnam, and you said that you were spat upon. Do you think that going forward, there could be hope that the military will be part of the solution and part of what brings us back together? Absolutely. I spoke of my terrible experiences in the 70s, but I didn't speak about my incredible experiences since then. I mean, I can remember walking through Atlantic Airport with a standing

ovation for about 10 minutes, you know, walking in my uniform, you know, coming back from Iraq. I mean, with a, you know, entire plane erupted in cheers when the captain mentioned that we had members of the military that were coming back from Iraq that were headed home. I mean, it's things like that. So we've really turned it around, and the support from most people now has been superb. And I think that that is a reflection that there is really hope that we can achieve common ground and that we can unify around our military. If we're called upon to do something

in a place like Ukraine, that the American people will rally around us in unified manner and indeed achieve common ground that we all want to achieve. Do you have kids or younger relatives who have joined the military? I have two children, both of whom are school teachers. I'm proud that they are both committed to public service. But I would try to get them interested, for instance, I'd say, are you interested in

West Point? Before I could say point, I'd say, are you interested in West Point before I could say point, they'd say no. My daughter moved eight times in eight years, and she said, I remember what time she's been, she's what, ruin your my kids' lives, like you ruin mine. Oh, you describe, you describe the journey of many parents being humbled by their children.

Oh yeah, but she's wonderful. She's wonderful. And you know, she lives 10 houses away from me in Arlington with my grandson, so in her husband. Retired Brigadier General Stephen Anderson, thanks very much for joining us on Let's Find Common Grant. Thank you so much Richard, naturally, I enjoyed it very much. Yeah, thank you. Retired Brigadier General, Stephen Anderson. Thanks for joining us on Let's Find Common Ground. I'm Ashley Mel Tite.

I'm Richard Davies. Before we go, a quick word about another member of the Democracy Group podcast network, the Village Squarecast. What I learned through my journey is that I was not as good as I thought I was, and they were not as evil as I thought they were. In high conflict, any intuitive common sense thing you do to try to fix it will probably make it worse. Join our Nervy bunch of Liberals and Conservatives on Village Squarecast for civil discussions

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