Let's Go To Court! - 1: Charles Manson Trial & the Diluting Pharmacist

Episode Date: February 27, 2018

WARNING: The audio in this episode is rough. What can we say? We were young(ish), dumb, and thought we’d save a little money by sharing one microphone. Yeah. The audio quality improves drastically after episode 9.  These are the trials that got us hooked on trials.  When she was just 13, Brandi read a book about infamous cult leader Charles Manson. She’s been obsessed ever since. In this episode, she discusses his crimes, his prediction that a race war was a-comin’, and his truly wacky trial.  As for Kristin… well, she’s dumb. When she and Brandi agreed to talk about the cases that got them hooked on trials, she knew exactly what trial she’d cover — the trial of Robert Courtney, the pharmacist who got caught diluting cancer drugs. But what Kristin didn’t *quite* remember was that dear ol’ Robby never had a criminal trial. Oh well. It’s still a good story. 

Brandi? Yes, Kristen? Are we experts? At what? Anything? No. No, we are not. Wait, so we're just two ladies who love black eyeliner, a cold can of Fresca, and a really juicy lawsuit. Damn, Skippy. I'm Brandi Egan. And I'm Kristen Pitts. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about Robert Courtney, the pharmacist who was caught diluting cancer drugs. And I'll be talking about Charles Manson. If you don't know who that is, we can't be friends. Not one bit. This episode of Let's Go to Court is sponsored by no one.

But my husband helped us set up the audio. So we're going to make it sponsored by the gaming historian brandy did you know that you can buy the gaming historian volume one on blu-ray at gaminghistorian.com i did not how much is it it's only twenty dollars that is a bargain basement price right there it sure is and man is it a value so go right there. It sure is. And man, is it a value. So go over there today and buy yourself one. I'm leaving right now to go buy one. Come back when I'm done. Okay, so today I selected for our first episode to do my favorite trial in history. The People vs. Charles Manson.

to do my favorite trial in history, The People versus Charles Manson. This is the one that like, drew me in got me started in true crime. I read the book about it when I was way too young. I think like 13 years old. Oh my god. I had nightmares. I had nightmares, but it started it all for me. So here we go. The People versus Charles Manson. Shortly after midnight on August 9th, 1969, Susan Atkins, Tex Watson, and Patricia Crenwinkel entered the property at 10050 Cielo Drive in Benedict Canyon, California, while Linda Kasabian stood watch outside. They launch a brutal attack on the residents.

In total, 102 stab wounds are inflicted on four victims. Oh, my God. While a fifth victim is shot. Left dead are actress Sharon Tate, celebrity hairstylist Jay Sebring, coffee heiress Abigail Folger, writer Wojciech Frykowski, and Stephen Parent, a teenage boy who happened to be in the wrong place at the worst possible time. a teenage boy who happened to be in the wrong place at the worst possible time. The following night, Atkins, Watson, Krenwinkel, and Kasabian were joined by Leslie Van Houten, Clem Grogan, and Charles Manson as they ventured to the home of Lino and Rosemary LaBianca in the Los Feliz area of Los Angeles.

Watson, Krenwinkel, and Van Houten entered the home and brutally murdered the couple with knives and utensils from their own kitchen. Rosemary had 41 stab wounds, many of which were inflicted post-mortem. Lino had over 35 wounds, many of which were from an ivory-handled serving fork that was found still in his abdomen. Wait, so did they go in there without any weapons whatsoever and then they just went to the kitchen on the second night they did the first night they came armed with their own knives the second night they came with nothing these murders were carried out on the orders of charles manson in order to incite a race riot manson was a hippie commune slash cult

leader who ordered his followers to leave signs at the murder scenes to make it look as if the a race riot. Manson was a hippie commune slash cult leader who ordered his followers to leave signs at the murder scenes to make it look as if the murders had been carried out by Black Panthers. Oh my God. At the Tate murder scene, Pig was written in blood

on the front door of the home. At the LaBianca home, Rise and Death to Pigs were written in blood on the walls. Helter Skelter was written on the refrigerator. And war was carved into Lino's torso. Manson believed that a race war he called Helter Skelter was coming soon.

Manson had prophesied that racial tensions between blacks and whites was growing and that blacks would soon rise up in rebellion in american cities manson explained that the social turmoil he had been predicting had also been predicted by the beatles the white album songs yes right it gets better the white album songs he declared told it all although in code in fact he he believed that the Beatles were speaking directly to the family and that they were an elect group that had been instructed to preserve the worthy from the impending disaster. Sure, yeah.

Yes, the Beatles were speaking directly to Charles Manson through the White Album. I hate it when that happens. I know. Manson's prophecy told that the blacks would win the race war, but then would be incapable of running the world and that the family, get this, who had survived the war by hiding in a bottomless pit in the desert, would come to power and he would lead them. How do you hide in a bottomless pit? So they legit had dune buggies and they went on missions in the desert every day to find the entrance to the bottomless pit oh my god yes um this of course would never come to fruition and the murders would incite no such race war not only were the murders never believed to be committed

by the black panthers they weren't even connected to each other for several weeks the lapd even went as so far as to make an announcement on August 12th that they had ruled out any connection between the two murders. Wait, so... Okay, so they were trying to make it super obvious that this was Black Panthers, and the police just immediately were like, no. No, no, and we don't even think the two murders, which have a lot of similarities, they're not even related.

Great, okay. So then, in November of 1969, think the two murders which have a lot of similarities they're not even related great okay so then um in november of 1969 so several months later susan atkins is being held in los angeles on charges resulting from a raid on the ranch where the family was living there had been a a raid lots of people were rounded up and arrested on different things, stolen property, identity theft charges. And she was being held. And she told her cellmate that she and the members of the family were responsible for the Tate and LaBianca murders. The cellmate, like, freaked the fuck out and immediately called the LAPD. And we're like, listen, yeah, this is what this person just told me.

And they immediately reacted to it. On December 1st, 1969, LAPD announces warrants for the arrest for Tex Watson, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Linda Kasabian. At that time, Manson and Atkins were already in police custody. Leslie Van Houten was already in police custody at that time as well, though her connection to the LaBianca murders had not yet been made. All were taken into custody without incident, though Watson had returned to his home in Texas and fought extradition. So he was tried separately. Okay. They decided not to wait for the extradition to come through, and they went ahead with charging the other four.

Okay. In December, Susan Atkins went before a Los Angeles grand jury and told all. In the beginning, she was going to be the prosecution's star witness. She even struck a deal to avoid the death penalty. She would be their witness, she would tell everything, and they would spare her the death penalty. But before the trial started, she recanted everything she told the grand jury and renewed her loyalty to manson ultimately though her grand jury testimony led to indictments against manson atkins krenwinkel and van houten prosecutor vincent buliosi was assigned the case buliosi

went on to write helter skelter the book i read when i was 13 it was uh reading any young girl a book about his experience with the trial, which to this day is the best selling true crime book of all time. Better than In Cold Blood? Yes. Whoa. Okay, okay. I'll have to read it. The trial began June 15 1970. The prosecution's main witness was Linda Kasabian, who along with Mansonson atkins and quinn winkle had originally been charged with seven counts of murder and one of conspiracy since kasabian by all accounts had not participated in the killings she um stood outside stood watch the first night and the second night she didn't enter the la bianca home she was present and she actually kept a third murder from

happening that same night manson had instructed them to go to another house, a house of someone that they were familiar with. And she intentionally knocked on the next door neighbor's house and alerted them like that something was happening. And so the family left. And so another murder didn't happen that night. Wow. Yeah. So they granted her immunity in exchange for her testimony um and so she detailed the both nights of the crimes and though van houten was tried with the other she was only present um on

the second night for the la bianca killings so she was just charged with two counts of murder and one count of conspiracy just two yeah yes absolutely originally judge william keen was presiding and had reluctantly granted manson permission to act as his own attorney oh god right however due to manson's conduct including violations of a gag order and submission of outlandish and nonsensical pre-trial motions the permission was withdrawn before the trial started. Well, the Beatles probably told it to you. Absolutely. It's not all on him.

So then Manson filed an affidavit of prejudice against Judge Keene, and he was replaced with Judge Charles H. Older. During the jury selection, it is reported that Manson would fix his stare on a subject for hours at a time first on judge older then on prosecutor buliosi buliosi wrote in helter skelter that during one of these manson stare downs his watch stopped and he felt that manson's mind powers were responsible for it that would be so creepy though just like for hours somebody just staring at you it's bad enough when you're just out and you catch somebody's eye absolutely but oh my god okay

yes ultimately a jury of seven men and five women were selected and opening statements were set for july 24th 1970 the jury was sequestered and was warned that it could be a long trial but it turned into a sequestration of 225 days longer than any jury in history to that point oh like nine months nine ten months they were sequestered for and i assume they can't see their family nope nothing can't watch tv my nightmare what's worse my nightmare on the first day of testimony manson showed up in court with an x carved into his forehead he issued a statement that he had been considered inadequate and incompetent to speak or defend himself and that he'd x'd himself from the establishment's world oh my god over the following weekend the female defendants duplicated the marks on their foreheads

as did the other family members who never wavered in their loyalty to Manson during the trial. So family members loitered in the halls and like stood vigil outside the courthouse during the entire proceedings. This became such a problem that in order to keep them out of the courtroom proper, the prosecution subpoenaed them as potential witnesses. So they could not enter the courtroom while other witnesses were were testifying and they all had these exes they all had the exes and then each day they would like camp out on the sidewalk right outside the courthouse and they had these big knives like in sheaths that they wore on them and yeah just their exes on their forehead and like reporters they you know, talk to reporters and harass people coming to the courthouse.

It was a really big problem. Bugliosi, in his opening statement for the prosecution, promised the jury that the evidence would show Manson had a motive for the murders that was perhaps even more bizarre than the murders themselves. The prosecution argued the triggering of Helter Skelter was Manson's main motive. The crime scene's bloody white album references, Pig, Rise, Helter Skelter, were correlated with testimony about Manson's predictions that the murders Blacks would commit at the onset of Helter Skelter would involve the writing of pigs on the walls in victims' blood. On July 27th, Bugliosi announced, The People Call Linda Kasabianian manson's attorney irving canarek immediately sprung up with an objection object your honor on the grounds that this

witness is not competent and is insane calling canarek to the bench and telling him his conduct was outrageous judge older denied his objection and kasabian was sworn in as a witness. She would remain on the stand for an astounding 18 days, including seven days of cross-examination. Kasabian proved a very credible witness, though, despite the best efforts during cross-examination of defense attorneys to make her appear as a spaced out hippie, centering on the fact that she admittedly took lsd over 50 times other defense questions explored her beliefs in esp witchcraft or focused on the vibrations she claimed to receive from manson sure you know those mind powers again it's watch stuff that's right a major distraction from kasabian's testimony came on August 3rd when Manson stood before the jury and held up a copy of the Los Angeles Times with the headline, Manson Guilty, Nixon declares. This was a reference to a statement made the previous day when President Nixon had publicly denounced what he saw as the media's glamorization of Manson.

The defense moved for mistrial on the grounds of the headline prejudice the jury against the defense but judge older denied the motion after each juror stated under oath that he or she would not be influenced by the president's reported declaration of guilt the next day the female defendants stood up and said in unison that in light of Nixon's remark, there was no point in going on with the trial. In unison? In unison. I love that. That kind of seems like, I don't know, a seventh grade church choir. Absolutely. They all have black pants and white tops.

Absolutely, yes. On October 5th, Manson was denied the court's permission to question a prosecution witness whom the defense attorneys had declined to cross-examine leaping over the defense table manson attempted to attack the judge that he is a tiny man he's five foot two tiny manson manson is five foot two super tiny i would not have guessed they said he leapt off the table like a monkey like at the judge like nearly made it to the bench um he was wrestled to the ground by bailiffs he was removed from the courtroom as were the female defendants um because they had begun chanting in latin as he

oh my god oh can you imagine so it's reported that judge older began wearing a gun under his robes after that day uh yeah okay so testimony corroborating that of kasabian came from several other prosecution witnesses most notably the cellmate atkins had confessed to who originally alerted police of the family's involvement other Other witnesses described receiving threats from Manson, evidence of Manson's total control over the lives of the family members, or conversations in which Manson had told of the coming Helter Skelter. This dude was telling it to everybody. He's like, do you have three seconds?

Let me tell you about the future. Do you have a minute to talk about the environment? Do you have 24 minutes for me to stare at you non-stop and tell you what the world is coming to don't worry though you can come to my bottom that's right let's go to my bottomless pit on my dune buggy 19 year old paul watkins manson's foremost recruiter of young women he was supposed to be um like very attractive and he was the one that foremost recruiter of young women. He was supposed to be very attractive and he was the one that drew in all the young

women to the family. How did I know he'd be super hot? He provided key testimony about the strange motive for the Tate-LaBianca murders, including its link to the Bible's Book of Revelation and the Beatles' White Album. Watkins testified that Manson discussed Helter Skelter constantly.

When Bugliosi asked Watkins how Helter Skelter would start, this is how he responded. There would be some atrocious murders that some of the blacks from Watts would come up into Bel Air and Beverly Hills and just really wipe some people out. Just cut up bodies and smear blood and write things on the wall and cut up little boys and make parents watch. So in retaliation, this would scare them.

All the other white people would be afraid that this would happen to them. So out of their retaliation this would scare them all the other white people would be afraid that this would happen to them so out of their fear they would just go to the ghetto and just start shooting black people like crazy but all they would shoot would be the garbage man and all the other ones that were with whitey in the first place and underneath it all the black muslims would know that helter skelter was coming down. Oh my God. Yes. This guy. On November 16th, 1970, after 22 weeks of testimony, the prosecution rested its case.

When trial resumed three days later, the defense started the courtroom spectators and the prosecution by announcing, without calling a single witness, the defense rests. Wow. Suddenly, the three female defendants began shouting that they wanted to testify. In chambers, attorneys for the women explained that although their clients wanted to testify,

they were strongly opposed, believing that they would, still under the powerful influence of Manson, testify that they planned and committed the murders without Manson's help. Returning to the courtroom, Judge judge older declared that the right to testify took precedence and said that the defendants could testify over the objections of their counsel atkins was then sworn in as a witness but her attorney day shin refused to question her returning to chambers van houten's attorney ronald hughes vehemently stated that he would not push a client out the window and that allowing them to testify would be aiding and abetting suicide. Yeah. The next day came another surprise.

Charles Manson announced that he too wished to testify before his co-defendants did. He testified first without the jury being present so that potentially excludable testimony relating to evidence incriminating co-defendants might be identified before it prejudiced a jury. His over one hour of testimony full of discretions fascinated observers. Get ready this is some deep shit here. Okay I never went to school so I never growed up to read and write too good so I've just stayed in jail and I've stayed stupid and I've stayed a child while I've watched your world grow up. And then I look at the things you do and I don't understand. You eat meat and you kill things that are better than you are. And then you say how bad and even killers your children are. You made your children that way. These children that come come

at you with their knives, they are your children. You taught them. I didn't teach them. I just tried to help them stand up. Most of the people at that ranch that you call the family were just people you didn't want. People that were alongside the road that their parents had kicked out that did not want to go to juvenile hall. So I did the best I could and I took them up to my garbage dump and I told them this, that in love there is no wrong. I told them anything they do for their brothers and sisters is good if they do it with a good thought. I don't understand you, but I don't try. I don't try to judge nobody. I know the only person I can judge is me, but I know this, that in your hearts and your own souls, you're as much as responsible

for the Vietnam War as I am for these killings. I can't judge any of you. I have no malice against you and no ribbons for you, but I think that it is high time that you all start looking at yourselves and judging the lie that you live in. I can't dislike you, but I will saybons for you. But I think that it is high time that you all start looking at yourselves and judging the lie that you live in. I can't dislike you, but I will say this to you. You haven't got long before they're all going to kill yourselves because you are all crazy

and you can project that back at me, but I am only what lives inside of each and every one of you. My father is the jailhouse. My father is your system. I am only what you made me. I am only a reflection of you. You want to kill me?

I'm already dead. Have been all my life. I've spent 23 years in tombs that you built. Sometimes I think about giving it back to you. Sometimes I think about jumping on you and letting you shoot me. If I could, I would jerk this microphone off and beat your brains out with it. Because that's what you deserve. That is what you deserve.

What? These children were finding themselves. What they did, if they did, whatever they did is up to them. They'll have to explain that to you. You expect to break me? Impossible. You broke me years ago. You killed me years ago. Mr. Bugliosi is a hard-driving prosecutor, polished education,

a master of words, semantics. He's a genius. He's got everything that every lawyer would ever want to have except one thing, a case. He doesn't have a case. Were I allowed to defend myself, I could have proven this to you. They put these hideous bodies on display and they imply, if he gets out, look and see what will happen to you. Helter skelter means confusion, literally. It doesn't mean any war with anyone. It doesn't mean that some people are going to kill other people. Helter skelter is confusion. Confusion is coming down around you fast. If you can't see the confusion coming down around you fast, you can call it what you wish. Is it a conspiracy that the music is telling the youth to rise up against the establishment because the establishment is rapidly destroying things? that a conspiracy the music speaks to you every day but you are too

deaf dumb and blind to even listen to the music it's not my conspiracy it's not my music i hear what it relates it says rise it says kill why blame it on me i didn't write the music oh my god I'm like I'm curled up in kind of a ball right now because it just the whole thing makes me so uncomfortable I just cannot imagine being in that no kidding when he was going off like that because you know he didn't take a breath no that they would just talk for an hour and a half non-stop oh my god um so after a brief cross-examination by buliosi older asked manson if he now wished to testify before the jury he replied i've already relieved all the pressure i had and manson left the stand as he walked by the council table he told his three co-defendants you don't have to testify now wow i took care of it that's right there remained one last frightening surprise of the tate

la bianca murder trial when the trial resumed on november 30th following manson's testimony ronald hughes defense attorney for leslie van houten failed to show a subsequent investigation revealed he had disappeared over the weekend while camping in a remote Cespé Hot Springs area northwest of Los Angeles. It is widely believed that Hughes was ordered murdered by Manson for his determination to pursue a defense strategy at odds with that favored by Manson. Hughes had made clear his hope to show that Van Houten was not acting independently, as Manson suggested, but was completely controlled in her actions by Manson. Was Hughes the one who said, I wouldn't help someone jump out a window? Yeah.

Yes, yes. So interestingly, his body was found like a year later. No cause of death was able to be determined, but multiple family members have claimed that he was in fact murdered on orders of Manson. Wow. Yeah. But nothing ever came of it.

Nothing ever came of it. No charges were ever brought because they can never prove a cause of death or anything. Manson's defense attorney, Irving Kanarek, argued to the jury that Manson was being prosecuted because of his lifestyle. He argued that prosecution's theory of a motive was fanciful. His argument lasted seven days oh my god prompting judge older to call it no longer an argument but a filibuster no kidding serious yeah what do you even say for seven days yes he starts reading the cat in the hat. You have to. Yes. Here's a recipe I found.

This is a list of things I need from the grocery store today. I urge you to write these down for me today. Disruptions of the prosecution's closing argument by the defendants led Older to ban the four defendants from the courtroom for the remainder of the guilt phase in his summation buliosi described charles manson as an evil guru who sent out from the fires of hell at spawn ranch three heartless bloodthirsty robots and unfortunately for him one human being the little hippie girl linda kasabian buliosi ended his summation with a roll call of the dead ladies and gentlemen of the jury sharon tate abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Jay Sebring, Stephen Parent, Lino LaBianca, Rosemary LaBianca are not here with us in this courtroom, but from their graves they call out for justice. Yeah, I think that would be a pretty powerful closing. Yeah, yeah.

The jury deliberated a week before returning its verdict on January 25th, 1971. The jury found all defendants guilty on each count of first degree murder. Next came the penalty phase and midway through Manson shaved his head and trimmed his beard into a fork. He told the press, he told the press, I am the devil and the devil always has a bald head. Wait, you said he trimmed his beard into like a fork like i think yeah like two lines very just very devilish well that would scare the shit out of me his co-defendants and loyal followers outside the courthouse soon followed

suit and shaved their heads as well oh my god after hearing additional evidence in the penalty phase of the trial the jury completed its work by sentencing each of the four defendants to death on march 29th how long did they deliberate one week one week which sounds like a like a long time to me. I know. I know. It does. But okay. When the clerk read the verdict, Manson shouted, You people have no authority over me, Patricia Crenwinkel declared. You have judged yourselves. Susan Atkins said, Better lock your doors and watch your own kids.

And Leslie Van Houten complained, The whole system is a game. The trial was over. At over nine months, it had been the longest and most expensive in American history. The death sentences handed down by the Tate-Law Bianca jury would never be imposed due to a California Supreme Court ruling in 1972 declaring the state's death penalty law unconstitutional. The death sentences of the four convicted defendants, as well as for Tex Watson, who had been convicted and sentenced to death in a separate trial in 1971, were commuted to life in prison. So where are they now? Susan Atkins was incarcerated at the California Institution for Women in Frontero, California. She had an exemplary prison record and eventually showed remorse for her crimes. Inember 1974 atkins said her cell

door opened and a brilliant light poured over her describing the experience in her 1977 book child of satan child of god atkins said she believed the light was jesus telling her she'd sorry I totally thought of it yes oh my god yes okay in 2008

after multiple parole denials Atkins filed for a compassionate release due to terminal brain cancer her request was denied

the Buleosi actually argued in favor of her release stating that her medical care was costing the state an exorbitant amount

of money and she died in prison on Septemberember 29 2009 patricia krenwinkel is currently the longest incarcerated female inmate in the california penal system she has been denied parole 14 times though she has shown remorse in a 1994 interview she said i wake up every day knowing that i am a destroyer of the most precious thing, which is life. And I do that because that's what I deserve. I deserve to wake up every morning and know that. Her next parole hearing will be held in 2022 and she will be 74 years old.

Wow. Leslie Van Houten's first degree murder conviction in the Tate-Law-Bianca trial was overturned by state appeal in 1976 on the grounds that Judge Older erred in not granting Van Houten's motion for a mistrial following the disappearance of her attorney. In her first retrial, the jury was unable to reach a verdict. She was tried a third time in 1978 and convicted of first-degree murder after the jury rejected her defense of diminished capacity as the result of prolonged use of hallucinogenic drugs. In 2016, the California Parole Board recommended parole for Van Houten, but Governor Jerry Brown, cognizant of the politics in the case, rejected the board's recommendation and Van Houten remains in prison. Charles Manson never showed any remorse or took any responsibility for the crimes of

which he was convicted he was denied parole for the 12th and final time in 2012 he didn't even appear at that parole hearing um he said that there's no way they were ever going to parole him so he stopped going to his parole hearings hey i agree with charles manson he died of natural causes on november 19th 2017 one week after his 83rd birthday and that's the trial of charles manson oh that is crazy okay so you read all about this when you were 13 yeah so i started reading about when i was 13 and i'm like became like obsessed with it i've read like every book there is to read about it uh-huh it's just fascinating to me like not that in the fact that I like admire Charles Manson no no but

I do actually think that if I was alive in the 60s I could have easily been sucked into his cult you think so I do I think that I have this um I don't even this personality type that like makes me think that other people's ideas are so great. I just want to support them. Like, look how easily you got me to start this podcast. It's true. I just said, do you want to do this? And you're like, sure.

There's a race war coming. Helter Skelter is coming down. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. But you know what? Like, what strikes me is, you know, so they do all this stuff. They're all sucked into Charles Manson. And then one of them just, like, spills the beans.

Yeah, so Linda Kasabian, the reason that she turned state prosecution so easily was that she really was just a hippie girl. It was, you know, the 60s. She was looking to get away from her ex-husband. Like, she just wanted, she just wanted love and drugs and, you know, to live off the land. And she got in way over her head. And the reason, actually, she got mixed up in all of this, the murder and stuff, is that she's the only one who had a valid driver's license. And so she drove the cars the two days.

Wow. Yes, because they thought, at least if we get pulled over, because they would drive without a driver's license all the time. Yeah, sure. That was not something that they were concerned about. But if they got pulled over, at least they would have somebody who had a valid driver's license. They probably knew she wasn't the best person for this room. Absolutely the driver's license yeah okay absolutely yeah that's nuts it is nuts that's pretty crazy what a sad weird story absolutely i mean it's really i mean it's devastating um sharon tate's uh sister has uh gone and argued at all of the parole hearings for everybody involved in the case for her whole life.

She was much younger than Sharon Tate. She was only, I want to say, like 12 or 13 when Sharon Tate was murdered. And so she's made it her life's work to go and argue at all of the parole hearings that nobody should be paroled. And, yeah. I can't even imagine what that would be like to have your loved one die and then watch then be kind of become an icon of sorts yes yeah and have so much media coverage so breathless you know like we are right now exactly absolutely that would be really really hard yeah yep absolutely and i didn't mention it here but sharon tate was actually

eight months pregnant at the time that she was murdered and so her baby could have survived if she it was if she was found soon enough after her death but that didn't happen and so really there's another her family was really devastated by that yeah yeah so okay going back yes to the you said the lady who i'm sorry i'm terrible with names no it's fine but the the knock at the door how she kind of threw things off how did that work exactly so after they went to the la bianca house after those murders they were instructed to go to this other house it was actually an apartment to this other apartment that the family knew the people who lived there and they were instructed to go murder those people right and so um of the group that was

there linda kasabian was the only one who'd previously been to that residence okay and so she intentionally knocked on the neighbor's door and then was like yeah no we have the wrong place guys i don't know i don't know where it is wow yeah okay gotcha so it's kind of controversial because she was present the nights of the murders and didn't do anything to necessarily stop them but she did that so it's kind of controversial that she was granted immunity but yeah but they had to get them absolutely it was the only way they were gonna yeah have the the direct evidence to to convict them all oh Oh. Yes. Okay. That's a good one. Yes. Starting off with a bang. And I'm going to lower the bar.

That sounds like a joke, but it's really not. Okay. So let's go back to this. A couple weeks. I was like, Brandy, let's do a podcast where we talk about famous trials. It'll be sweet. And you're like, oh, yeah, absolutely. And you came up with the idea of, for our first episode,

we should talk about the trial that got us interested in trials. Absolutely. And I was like, great. I don't even have to think about it. Definitely Robert Courtney, the pharmacist who was caught diluting all these important drugs. So then I started researching this. There was no criminal trial for him in my head there was oh in my head there definitely was a big criminal trial yeah and i knew all about it absolutely uh no no criminal

trial there were tons of civil cases i was gonna say and he's in jail so yeah yeah i mean he i'll get into it because yeah it's a really cool. I decided to do it anyway just because. It's cool. It's also local to us. Yes, it is. And, you know, even though it turns out there was no criminal trial in my head. Yes. There was. Absolutely. And this is why I got interested in it, whether that's stupid or not.

No, I love it. Okay, so Robert Courtney had a pretty normal childhood, it seemed like. He was the son of a minister grew up in hayes kansas which is small town um went to the university of missouri kansas city for pharmacy school graduated in 75 uh went to work at research medical tower pharmacy in kansas city which i think i mean i've never seen it but I think that the pharmacy was like at the ground level of this big building, you know, doctor's offices. So by like 1986 or so, he decides to buy out the owner and he becomes the owner of Research Medical Tower Pharmacy. So he had a great reputation.

His customers loved him. He was really clean cut and friendly. his customers loved him he was really clean cut and friendly um he had a great reputation amongst other pharmacists because he was doing something kind of cutting edge at the time so he was specializing in intravenous drugs so he would take and i'm not a medical person but give me your medical expertise on this okay don't question. So the chemo would come to him, or whatever it was, in powdered form, and he would mix in saline and just basically hand over the bags to the doctor. The intravenous bag. And, yeah, and the doctors loved that because then, you know, they didn't have to do it.

There was no risk of error on their part. You know, he was, you know, kind of providing this extra service. So he had a great reputation for doing that. Great reputation at his church because he sang in the choir. He was a deacon, you know, good guy. He had two daughters. He had a wife. Things seemed pretty normal, good. 1990, he's making $48,000 a year salary, which seems fine, you know? I mean, not crazy. Yeah, but it's comfortable. Yeah, in 1990. Well, around this time was when things started going downhill.

So around 1990-ish, he got a divorce from his wife. He got custody of his two daughters. And he started buying drugs on the gray market. So he'd get these drugs and mark them up, sell them in his pharmacy at full price. To skim a little money off the top. And it's interesting. What? Gray market.

So he doesn't really know what's coming in, though, right? There's no, if he's buying it on the gray market, like, it could be anything, right? You know, I don't really know. Like, that's kind of one of those things i i have no clue yeah but you know absolutely great markets are definitely sketchy yeah super sketch and like it was interesting because i read in this article in the new york times the fbi was talking about how like obviously you don't go from choir boy good guy to all of a sudden today i'm gonna dilute cancer so like this they think was kind of the start of it like all of a sudden today I'm going to dilute cancer drugs. So like this, they think

was kind of the start of it. Like all of a sudden, you know, you start kind of down this slippery slope of, Oh yeah, I'll just do this gray market stuff and get a little extra cash on the side. Yeah, it's fine. Okay. So one of the most fascinating articles I read was this article in the New York times where they interview the guy, interview the lady who became his second wife. Okay. Because everyone else else in the story seems to have kind of liked him. Maybe they thought he was a little aloof, but they respected him professionally. They thought he was a good guy. They interviewed this woman who was his second wife and she gave kind of like i think the inside scoop on what it was really like the real story yeah like okay yeah he waved you from across the

lawn yeah so you know he divorces his wife um not too long after that he starts kind of courting this woman who he knew from childhood and you know he's living in Kansas City, but she's in Michigan with a child from a previous relationship. And he was very flashy. He had a nice car. He dressed very well. And he wanted things to move super fast in their relationship. Like, ridiculously crazy fast. Okay, so they've been dating for two months at this point

he proposes to her with a four carat diamond ring well who can say no to that and she didn't say no she said okay after two months oh my gosh yeah so their plan was they were going to get married Valentine's Day, 1991. Well, after Christmas, he's like, I can't wait that long. Yeah. What? Norman and I were engaged for like a year and we dated for like four years before that. So I don't get this guy at all. Yeah, I was engaged for two years before I got married. So they elope. They get things done really quickly.

And it's kind of unclear from the article how long they stayed married, but it seems like maybe a week tops. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Not long at all. And she said that she started to see this other side to him. So only took a week. these are the things you find out you date somebody longer than two months i feel like right this is just good advice you're giving right now date longer at least three months at least three months um unless it is the ring is over two carats yes yes totally gotta factor in the jewelry absolutely so she said that he told her you know very early on you are not allowed to gain a pound yeah you he wanted her hair done at all times her nails done at all times makeup done he wanted a 1950s housewife basically basically and she said and i wish i could remember the direct quote but

it was something like he wanted me like a doll on a shelf i mean because even in the house it was not like messy bun and leggings it was i'm describing myself right now my entire outfit was purchased at costco he would not have lied to me at all. So, you know, things aren't going well. He gets violent with one of his daughters, according to her. So she, she kind of says, uh, no, they end up getting an old, um, yeah, yeah. That's crazy. Oh wait. Oh my god, I almost forgot to tell you the craziest part. So, you know, he's been flashy this whole time. He tells her, I want you driving a nice car.

He kind of sends her out to do some house hunting, but he's not satisfied with her taste. She's not thinking grand enough for them. But at the same time, he's also kind of complaining like, oh, my parents are hitting me up for money too much. And oh, we need to think of ways to save money. So he comes up

with a way to save money. Gosh, I'm scared. I'm scared. Kristen, I'm scared. It's okay. He can't get you. He's in prison. So his way of saving money was he tells her, when we go out to eat, I'll order an entree. You don't order an entree. You can eat off my plate. I'll put it on a tiny plate on the floor. What's so? Oh my gosh. I'd be like deuces like i can put up with a lot you can tell me to do my hair number of carrots in a wedding

so it's funny it's like you know i read that article i was like no i got to that part and like i know he ends up diluting cancer drugs but i went and told norman this and he was like that monster that's the worst part it is i feel like it's just one of those things like you know how when you see someone in a grocery store parking lot and instead of taking their cart to the little place they just leave it yeah and you're like look at that person like this is all i need to know about you you are you can tell a lot about a person by their cart behavior yes yes and i feel like that story with the entree is like okay i'm on to you clearly a monster god i can't believe i almost forgot to tell you that okay so y So, yada, yada, yada.

You know, they get their shit annulled. So then, in 1994, comes the third marriage. And she is seven years younger than him. Which I don't think is a massive age gap at all. But I do kind of wonder about that a little bit. Just because I spend way too much time on Reddit relationships where people write in with their relationship problems. And I have noticed that anytime now we're relationship experts to get around kids. Listen, I've been in many relationships,

learned a few things. So I've noticed that when people write in and they're like, I'm 24 and I'm dating someone who's 45. And, you know, oh, things are really weird. I've noticed that, like, the top comment is always, sorry, I just bumped the microphone. The top comment is always like, yeah, you know, the thing is, like, a lot of people who date people who are way younger than them do that because people their own age will not put up with their bullshit absolutely and that's not always the case but i do kind of wonder if like after the first marriage goes to shit the second wife is like uh deuces goodbye then he finds this younger woman you know he's like yeah i can do whatever i want like she doesn't know any better yeah she's maybe a little more naive yeah absolutely maybe i don't know maybe i mean i don't know her personally i don't know her personally and then we're making yes we're we're making expert assumptions about her poor woman so um he has her sign a prenup of course and uh they ended up having twin boys together and she also had a child from a previous relationship

so now we're fast forwarding to the late 90s and things are going awesome for Robert Courtney. He buys a second pharmacy in Merriam, Kansas. So now he owns two pharmacies. He is... Do you know the name of the pharmacy in Merriam, Kansas? Do you go there? I live in Merriam, Kansas! I don't but i think i think what they said was that basically he didn't have much to do with their stuff that's what i'm telling you right

down the street from my house that is known like people come from all over to go to it because they will compound drugs uh-huh so they take medication that's usually only available orally and they make it into a topical form oh like people do it for their cats when their cats are sick so they can put it on their ears well yeah because who wants to give a cat a pill hormone replacement for women they do that they compound drugs actually i'm wondering if it's that time to google time to do some serious googling especially after you hear all this no kidding so like i said second pharmacy and around this time he pledges one million dollars to his church's new building fund so he is becoming the little philanthropist absolutely a little flashy and um so like i said in 1990 he was making a salary of 48 000

by like late 90s early 2000s he has 18.7 million dollars in assets what the fuck exactly exactly how does this happen not like today now things are gonna turn around for these girls listen we just need to keep on our grind and just doing our thing or you can do some really shady stuff okay so so what you're saying is we need to buy a pharmacy i'm afraid so multiple pharmacies um it's so funny to like be sitting here thinking about what it would be like to have 18.7 million dollars in assets because my god oh my god i can't even even the nicest real estate agent would describe this place as cozy when you came in i immediately told you sorry we don't have curtains. We're using

quilts. So anyway, moving forward, you know, like I said, he's well respected by almost everybody, except pharmaceutical sales reps. Pharmaceutical sales reps hate Robert Courtney and they hate him because he has this kind of weird policy where he either gets evasive or just kind of dismissive anytime they're like hey how how much of this drug are you selling? He doesn't want to answer that question and apparently that messes shady yeah i would call that shady that's what they call a red flag i think i've heard that before i made it up so um yada yada yada lost my place okay so this this is how they get their commissions apparently so you know he's messing with these people's money which will make you some enemies fast absolutely so the person who seemed to dislike him the most

was this guy named daryl ashley he worked for eli lilly and they had bad blood going way way back i think i saw something where it said like in 1989 robert courtney reneged on some sales contract so Daryl Ashley has disliked this guy for a while well in 1998 he somehow finds out that Robert Courtney is selling more chemotherapy drugs to the doctors and research medical tower than he Daryl Ashley is supplying to Robert Gordon. So he's like, that's not... So then fishy is afoot. Yes! The thing that kills me is I couldn't find any interviews with this guy because I would really love

to know what he was... Kristen, have I got a surprise for you. He is in the hallway right now. Daryl, actually, come on. Come on down! Damn, I don't tease me. God, I just would, I would love to talk to him because he seems, he seems like my kind of guy. He holds a grudge. He's suspicious all the time of everybody. Absolutely. So, you know, he, he,

he hears this somehow. And so he goes to his employer, Eli Lilly, and he tells them what he's heard. And so, naturally, this is me just making assumptions. My assumption is they didn't jump to, like, oh, he's diluting these drugs. I think they probably thought maybe he has some other supplier. Maybe he's doing the gray market. You know, something more normal. thought maybe he has some other supplier or maybe he's doing the gray market you know something more normal yeah so eli lily does this internal investigation but they didn't find any other suppliers so yeah oh well yeah whoopsies but daryl ashley my new favorite person, who's evidently hanging out in my bathroom right now.

So in 2001, you know, he hasn't let this go. So he mentions this to a nurse who's working in Research Medical Tower. He says, hey, Robert Courtney is selling three times more chemo drugs than he's buying from me. So this is when things get rolling. The nurse goes to Dr. Verda Hunter, who's an oncologist there. And she mentions what she just heard from Daryl Ashley and Verda Hunter, you know, obviously like that's a, that's a scary thing to hear, but I think she was also kind of freaked out about it because she had all these patients you know she'd been going to robert courtney for years for these drugs and she had all these patients who were going through chemo but they weren't having such a tough time with chemo yeah oh no yeah so like chemo is supposed to it's like it, clicks and it makes sense with her.

Like, oh, my God, that's horrible. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's awful. I mean, this is, like, it's funny to try to pick, like, the sickest part of a really sick story. But this part, like, oh, man, this part bugs me so much because, you know, chemo is supposed to kick your ass. You run a low-grade fever. You lose your hair you feel awful and with each round it's supposed to build up in your system you're supposed

to feel worse and worse and worse yeah but this doctor's patients weren't really having such bad symptoms and you know like you think about just human nature you you wouldn't be like oh no i don't feel bad instead they they felt kind of optimistic like oh we're handling this really well um which is just like fuck that guy yeah serious are we cursing on this i yeah okay we are now so Delia Chalston she talked about how after her fourth round of chemo she didn't really feel much of anything and then the same thing after the fifth and sixth treatments she actually felt fairly good and again it made her feel like optimistic. Absolutely. Like, oh, I'm not even that sick. I'm getting better.

Yeah, yeah. Devastating. That is devastating. Oh, absolutely. Ugh. And then there was this other woman, Jacqueline Talman. Her husband, Gary, received chemo medication from Robert Courtney. But, of course, he didn't have the usual side effects.

I don't think he even lost his hair. And she said in this episode of American greed that oh my god it's just like it's addictive um that at the time they looked at each other and they were like what's this chemo it's kind of a snap we're tolerating this really well and of course a while later they tried experimental treatments at a different facility and then gary had all the the side effects you'd expect so Gary you know eventually died and that's just horrible so Verda Hunter she's heard this rumor from her nurse she has had these weird experiences with some of her patients not having these normal reactions to chemo are you crying my eyes are watering so bad let me get you a tissue my eyes are like tears running down my face right now

not from crying oh so you're just a monster you're hearing that all this you're like who cares i did burn a really strong crazy obnoxious candle before you came here i wonder if that's what it is i think it's this air the air exchange is right there i think it's just like blowing in my face do you want to switch places no this is fine continue i'm i'm loving it okay great brought to you by mcdonald's yeah we're sponsored by mcdonald's we're so rich we almost have 18.7 million dollars in assets any day now yeah any time really it'll come through okay so dr verda hunter she takes the chemo drugs to a lab to be tested just to kind of you know check things out she gets the lab results back sure enough they are diluted big time like

way less than 50 of the medication that they should have oh my god so she was physically sick you know like oh god so she calls in the fbi and the fbi it's funny like they swarm in but at the same time they're kind of like it can't be yeah you know like this was so unheard of that a pharmacist would dilute cancer drugs and who does this here's my question okay i know you're an expert so i expect you to know the answer i am an expert do pharmacists take any kind of oath like a doctor does you know like sure they do but do no harm i'm sure oh okay excuse me i forgot that i'm an expert yes yes they do i mean i feel like they're in charge of so much i feel like they have to take some kind of oath right i think so i sure would think so okay so yes expert answer yes expert

answer here answer is that yes it's the uh the unbroken unbreakable vow from harry potter the pharmacists have to take and he broke that shit big time i hate him so much okay so uh let's see fbi comes in and they're like there's got to be some other explanation so they but they work with dr hunter they're like will you help us with a sting operation so she oh my god you know after she got those lab results back she obviously stopped going to robert oh yeah but then you know she she wants to help the fbi so she's like okay so she has to go back to robert courtney and apologize to him for not using his services and say hey will you please you know fill these prescriptions for me oh my gosh that's terrible can you imagine no i can't even imagine having to do that i have the worst poker face

i would be the last person he would see the fire in my eyes and he would know like you seem kind of angry about these cancer drugs no just having a bad day bummer of the day so the fbi gets the drugs back the lab shows that the drugs were definitely diluted. So they move really fast. On August 13, 2001, law enforcement swarmed the pharmacy, and they charged him with misbranding medication and adulteration, which sounds... It's different than adultery? It is.

The FBI doesn't swarm your house for adultery, it turns out. So this is slightly different the creepy thing was like it was funny they they talked about how he reacted during this whole FBI raid and apparently he was super calm chill well I mean he I don't know he had to know that he'd get caught eventually right I don't know maybe not I mean he got away with it for a really long time absolutely maybe you start to feel kind of like yeah and the other thing is so obviously I mean maybe he thought they wouldn't be able to prove that he did it maybe he was like so confident by that point because i've been getting away with it for so long like sure you can arrest me but good luck making it stick yeah and i i was an ivy joke oh god

that sucked oh yeah but okay i i hate the term perfect crime but this kind of was absolutely because you think about like the people he was doing this to when they would die you know they were expected to die no one was like oh bad medical treatment no they had cancer they had late stage aggressive cancer absolutely and the other thing is that when you, I guess when you go and get your blood tested, you know, they're not looking at what level of chemo do you have in your blood. They look at other doctor things. They look at like your blood. I don't know. I'm clearly in over my head. So I'll stop there. Okay. Here's my next question. Oh, medical expert. Yes, yes.

Okay, so my question now is, he was obviously doing this for profit. You know, he's making so much money off of it. But did he derive any kind of joy in the fact that it was killing these patients? I don't know. See, I'm going to go back to my fabulous episode of american greek yeah they talked about how he would go and like talk to people as they were receiving chemotherapy and to me like that's a god complex that's so weird i i don't know i don't know because it almost makes you wonder if he's like one of those like angel of death killer types of things.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know. Interesting. Maybe he's even worse than we thought he was. Maybe. I mean, he's already a monster now. The entree thing.

The entree thing sealed the deal. Yeah, we were already mad at him about the entree. So this is just icing on the cake. That's right. Okay, so before he turns himself into law enforcement he gives a bag of cash and prozac to his wife yes and he attempts to transfer five million dollars to his wife uh but only two million goes through because obviously you know law enforcement was trying to freeze his assets.

And for the record, all the money ended up going to a victim's fund. But still. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's maybe a silver lining. Like the tiniest. The tiniest silver lining. Yeah.

I just think like a bag of cash. Yeah. If Norman ever got carded off, I'd get like half a gift card to Chili's. He'd be like, wait to use this. Wait for me. We'll go share a queso. If you use this with some other guy, I'm going to be pissed. So at first he says, oh oh i've only been doing this for

a few months and i've only messed with three medications and it just affects 34 patients and i only did it because of the one million dollar pledge to the church okay unpack that for me pretty if you don't have a million dollars you don't pledge a million dollars to your church good common sense advice like i'm not calling up the jerry's kids telethon and pledging a million dollars but wouldn't it make you feel good to do that but But it would make them feel really bad I couldn't come through with that million dollars. And that was the one thing like I kind of wonder what was going through law enforcement's head when they were like when he said I've only been doing it for a few months only messed with three medications it affects 34 patients I'm sure that

part they were kind of like god I hope so. Bullshit. there's like the one guy in the back but like the one million dollar pledge thing was the one where they were like no way you live in the nicest house you have nice cars like you're no it's not just because no of the one million dollar pledge malarkey that's what i'm saying malarkey malarkey clearly malarkey baloney you name it that's what it was so around this time there was huge media coverage do you remember like i do this was when i got sucked into it yeah i do remember the because we were high school um and it was on we were wearing really cool um platform flip-flops so good so good i had blue eyeshadow that had specks of glitter i wore i had white eyeshadow i wore it every day

i mean it just made my eyeballs look like they were on my eyelids i don't know and this was back when bath and body works was doing their own makeup wise glitter everywhere yes yes my face did not match my neck but who needed to you know hair straighteners were in their infancy i had the largest straight hair and because it wouldn't quite my straightener was about three inches thick so you couldn't get all the way to the root so you just had like weird hair here and then straight ends yes okay and i remember thinking obviously you wanted the bigger straighteners because you know it would go so much faster that way it's so much more effective but yeah you'd have like common misconception crazy roots and then you know anyway so we looked awesome yes we've established that yes here we go we are really swinging back and forth between

horrible and then just here's the eyeshadow okay so the fbi set up a victim hotline and they were getting hundreds of calls a day, about 3,000 total. Oh, my gosh. And I have to wonder, like, surely some people found out about this from watching TV. And so they were calling in with questions like, do I keep taking my medication? And the one that I was just super disturbed by was people were like okay my loved one died yeah were they affected by this and they quoted one guy he said my mother's been dead for two years and i was at peace with it now it's all up in the air again and oh that is heartbreaking yeah

oh my gosh yeah that that kills you because you think about how horrible that would be to be grieving your mother and like maybe you get to a point where it's not feeling like a gut punch every day you know you kind of get to where you've accepted it and then you you see this and you're like okay devastating yeah, did she have to die? Yeah. Or maybe she could have lived a couple months longer. I mean, who knows? Who knows?

That's horrible. And there's no way to know. Mm-mm. And there was one lady who said, and I hope I get this right because it sounds kind of weird at first, but she was like, this was worse than the cancer. And she said, the thing is, the cancer, nobody did that to me you know i couldn't have prevented it it just happened to me but this someone diluting my medication like that they did that to me you know he looked at me he knew me he did that to me and that's worse that is worse yes it is worse oh oh my gosh yeah so on august 23rd 2001 a grand jury indicted robert courtney

he faced 20 felony counts including tampering with consumer products and adulterating and misbranding drugs he was not charged with murder i think probably because it would have been hard to prove murder because people were already And misbranding drugs. He was not charged with murder. I think probably because it would have been hard to prove murder because people were already sick. Ugh. Yeah. That makes me sick, though. I know.

I know. He played a hand. Yeah. And that's exactly right. Prosecutors were basically like, you know, it would be so hard to prove that they wouldn't have died. They died anyway. Yeah, yeah. Or that for sure it was the diluted medication that played a hit. Yeah.

Gosh. I know. Ugh. That's not satisfying at all. No, it's not. It sure isn't. It sure isn't. So he pled not guilty.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great, huh? Yeah. He eventually changed his plea, though. Oh. And this is when the criminal trial that never happened.

Never happened. So he confessed, and when he confessed, he said, this goes far beyond chemo drugs. He diluted drugs that treat AIDS, multiple sclerosis. Hold on. Let's take it again. He diluted drugs that treat AIDS, multiple sclerosis, drugs that help with fertility, you know, and on and on. Oh, my gosh.

It was like any time he could find a way to make some money, he did it. And it really didn't seem to matter what the drug was. Oh, my gosh. As long as he could make some extra money off of it. So he admitted to diluting 72 different types of medication starting in 1992. My jaw is like on the floor right now. I know. He was caught in 2001. He started in 1992.

Oh, my gosh. Almost 10 years. That's quick math that I did here. Nine years. You're amazing. I'm also a math expert. Mathematicians. We're also police. And I'm also a math expert. Mathematicians. We're also police.

And I'm a doctor. So probably a number of other things, too. Yes. So the FBI came up with the scope of this thing. So the potential is he messed with 98,000 prescriptions from 400 doctors, potentially affecting 4,200 patients. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That's crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. The scope of that. I mean, a lot of people wouldn't even have any idea where their drugs came from or anything like that. No. I mean, you trust people. Yeah. You trust a pharmacist. Absolutely. Especially, have you seen a picture of this guy he just likes it

we're gonna flip off every every pharmacist i'm gonna start making my own drugs in my bathtub you know all you need is some essential oils that's right oh no you've pissed somebody off so bad right now doterra we're not directing that directly at you please do not write us letters or emails or anything send us essential oils okay so in december 2002 u.s. District Court Judge Ortey Smith said, Your crimes are a shock to the conscience of a nation. You alone have changed the way a nation thinks about pharmacists, the way the nation thinks about prescription medication,

the way a nation thinks about those institutions we trusted blindly. Man, that was a good segue. Yeah. Yeah. So he was sentenced to 30 years in a federal prison oh my gosh yeah so he's there now yeah he's there now do you know where he is oh shit um i mean i didn't ask that in the united states you can tell me wherever i don't know oh okay i i can make stuff up he is in the united states i want to say kentucky okay how cool would it be

if i was right that would be amazing okay so i do want to talk about the civil suits just because this is a uh podcast yeah let's go to court so let's go to civil court let's go to civil court damn it so some sources say there were like 300 civil suits oh my gosh a washington post story i saw said there were over 400 so who knows but there were tons and apparently in quite a few of these civil suits eli lilly and bristol meyer squibb which are big pharmaceutical companies were named as defendants and the logic was you guys should have either figured out that this yeah you should you either knew or should have known that something was going on i mean they probably should have known well it's a lot of their drug like they settled with the victim for 72 million

dollars i have to agree that they should have known it it would be interesting to know more from their side or something absolutely but yeah anyway they they settled for we've got a representative from eli lily in the hall daryl ashley and daryl ashley's boss i'm sorry there's no room for them to come into this room this room is getting so crowded it's already super hot in here next time we do this i'm gonna be in a tube top and i'm sorry for that okay so um yeah so they settled with the victims for about 72 million i can't remember what the you know who paid exactly yeah and that settlement came into the news again a couple years

ago apparently some of the victims and family members said that the settlements were improper and should be thrown out but in 2013 the western district missouri court of appeals denied those claims so it seems like that's not uh improper how they wanted more money or it wasn't divvied up properly? I'm not really sure. The article I read didn't go into specifics too much. But I think it was basically that it was done very, very quickly. Why am I acting like I'm not an expert right now? I know.

I'm getting all self-conscious. Like I should have read more. Look, the world may never know absolutely it's not that i didn't do enough research it's that these things how dare you so the the civil case that most people remember is georgia hayes's civil suit and she had ovarian cancer and an oncologist testified that because of the diluted medication she received from Robert Courtney Georgia Hayes probably missed her best chance to cure the cancer and that she'd probably die of ovarian cancer and um she said

you know in front of the jury and I love this this quote. She goes, if I had my wish, they would paint all of our faces on his cell block wall so that when he goes to sleep at night, we are the last thing he sees when he wakes up in the morning and we are the first thing he sees. I think I read that wrong. Shit. I mean, I didn't want to say it. Thank you. I can tell by the silence you were like, oh, I didn't want to say it. Thank you. I could tell by the silence you were like, oh. It didn't make any fucking sense. After I say what a great quote it is.

And then I'm like, blah, blah, blee, blee, blee. I will squat. Hold on to your hats, ladies. I didn't want a Mason quote coming your way. Okay, here's the quote. Launcher, baseball, polka dances. Why is everyone looking at me like that doesn't make sense? All right, let's hit it again.

Let's hit the quote again. It'll be really interesting to see what makes the cut. Absolutely. Probably not this. Okay. So, Georgia Hayes said, if I had my wish, they would paint. Oh, are you laughing? Sorry. Well, now we can't cut anything out because then it'll just seem like you're laughing. I know. Okay. Hold on. I'm gathering myself. I'm ready.

Georgia Hayes, who brought the civil suit said if i had my wish they would paint all of our faces on his cell block wall so that when he goes to sleep at night we are the last thing he sees and when he wakes up in the morning we are the first thing he sees that is a powerful quote yeah when i read it correctly it really is it's really great it's a really great quote. Did I mention that I majored in journalism? So the jury awarded her $2.2 billion. Oh my gosh. But it was symbolic. She never saw any of that. But she didn't really intend to see it.

She basically said, I knew the money wouldn't come to me, but this is not about money. Which I think is so powerful when he did this, you know, supposedly all for the money. She's saying, I don't really care about the money wouldn't come to me, but that this is not about money, which I think is so powerful when he did this, you know, supposedly all for the money. She's saying, I don't really care about the money. It's about sending a message to anyone who might be thinking about doing this, you know. Anyway, so where are they now? Robert Courtney is still in prison. don't ask no one knows maybe kentucky yeah maybe maybe verda hunter is still an oncologist and okay this is cool one of the fbi investigators who investigated this whole thing became a pharmacist oh that's awesome yeah that's really cool so she's a good pharmacist yeah

then um this is sad georgiaes, who brought the famous civil suit against Robert Courtney, passed away. All of the eight patients that were named in the criminal case have died. And then, so remember I talked to you about that bag of cash in the Prozac? Yes. Okay. So, it's interesting in the american greed episode they said bag of cash like i think they said like 70 grand plus a bunch of prozac in other articles i read they just said 160 grand cash around there didn't mention the prozac but anyway so one of the two is correct yeah a lot of money

so his wife laura in 2003 pled guilty to making a false statement to law enforcement. So basically what happened, it sounds like, is Robert Courtney gave that bag of cash to his father with the instruction that he give the money to Laura. But when federal agents asked her about if she knew of her father-in-law having any money for her, she was like, nope. No, I haven't heard anything about it. So she told the judge in this article i read that basically she was really scared she didn't know what was happening you know she had kids so they said she was sentenced to one day of unsupervised probation unsupervised probation what the hell is unsupervised probation it sounds like my life right no one is supervising you you're just on

your own for one day consequences if i act up that's right so prosecutors stressed that there was no evidence that she knew anything about the dilution scheme which i totally i mean why would why would she yeah why would he come home and be like, guess what I did today? Yeah, no. I think he wouldn't tell anybody that he was doing that. No. Wow. So that's the story of Robert Courtney. That is crazy. Isn't that nuts?

It is nuts. I think I have a connection to this story. For real? For real. There was, this is a really vague connection. Just don't get too excited. You know someone who was sick once? I know someone who one time had a cold.

No, just kidding. Um, my uncle is actually a, uh, a real estate broker here in Kansas City. Uh-huh. And, um, an agent that he, or an agent or broker that he um knew well i believe was one of the was a cancer patient at the time and was getting the drugs from robert courtney so hard to know i don't know any details about this whatsoever if you're an expert don't worry about it but i believe she was somehow affected by it oh my gosh yeah well it seems like i, that's pretty common in Kansas City. Like, it's not a huge place. Yeah.

And he affected a lot of people. A lot of people. Yeah. I will say, the thing I hated, I love this episode of American Greed. It's great. But the opening of the episode is, like, just shots of Kansas City. And it's like, Kansas City, where humble people have great values. And it's one of those,

like, clearly people from not around here wrote this intro. And it's like, they're the salt of the earth, you know, a bunch of good hearted dummies. We're just regular people. This is a, you know, it's we're not a cow town. It's a fairly regular city. I just hate when people like try to say that maybe like people from the midwest or maybe people from the south are like oh they're all such good people they have good value it's like no some of us are assholes some of us dilute cancer drugs we're judgmental and bitchy that's right. But yeah, aside from that. We're just regular people. Yeah. Like everywhere else.

Everywhere else. There's as many assholes here as there are anywhere else. There's as many nice people here as there are anywhere else. That's a good one. Thank you. I really enjoyed that. I mean. Wow, you really messed up.

I didn't enjoy that. Maybe enjoy you're really messed up. I didn't enjoy it. Maybe enjoy is the wrong word. It's always awkward when you talk about how you like true crime, you like serial killers, you like lawsuits because... Absolutely. You know, it's much less controversial to say you like bunnies. I also enjoy bunnies. Well, focus on that.

Okay, so we didn't think of how to wrap this up. Podcast adjourned. Ready? Yes. One, two, three. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got a lot of great info from the New York Times, the Kansas City Star, and a fabulous episode of American Greed. And I got my info from FamousTrials.com. So thank you, Douglas Linder, for your amazing research and writing. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. It's amazing. Do it now. Okay.