Let's Go To Court! - 104: The Hazing Death of Matt Carrington & a Murderer Turned Professor

Episode Date: January 15, 2020

Matt Carrington wasn’t your typical frat boy. He was reserved. He didn’t drink much. But when a friend asked him to rush the Chi Tau fraternity at Chico State University, Matt said sure. He couldn’t have guessed what he was in for. Over the course of what is commonly referred to as “hell week,” Matt endured relentless hazing. The hazing ramped up as the week progressed. On the final night of hazing, Matt died. Then Brandi tells us about a brilliant, troubled young man named James Gordon Wolcott. James grew up in a small town in Texas. He excelled academically, but he struggled to fit in at home. His sister, Elizabeth had a Southern accent that grated on him. His father, a conservative professor at Southwestern University, disapproved of James’ more liberal politics. One day, in the summer of 1967, James had enough. He murdered his entire family. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Matt’s Law” entry on wikipedia “The Pledge” episode of The Shadows of Death “New ‘Matt’s Law’ toughens penalties for college hazing,” by Matt Krupnick for Contra Costa Times “Horrifying details in hazing death,” by Cecilia Vega for the San Francisco Chronicle “7 face trial in hazing death,” Associated Press “4 fraternity members plead guilty in student’s death,” Associated Press “Student dies during fraternity hazing,” Santa Maria Times “A fraternity hazing gone wrong,” by Elaine Korry for NPR “Hazing death at Chico State” episode of Dateline In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Innocence Lost” by Kim Janssen, Chicago Sun Times “Esteemed Illinois professor revealed as teen killer who murdered his family — and served just six years after insanity bid” by Joe Kemp, New York Daily News “The Family Annihilator Turned University Professor – James Gordon Wolcott” by Emily Thompson, Morbidology “Boy who killed family turns up 46 years later as college professor” by Mike Robinson, NBC News

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the hazing death of Matt Carrington. Well, that sounds terrible.

So does yours. Go ahead and read yours. I'll be talking about yet another family annihilator. Wow, way to keep it light. Sorry, gang. We've got a dark one for you. It is. Hang on. Actually, let's talk about something fun for a second.

Okay. Right now, on our Patreon, we have a poll up where everyone can vote on our next episode topic. I am very excited. Brandi, what are the options? Cases covered by America's Most Wanted or cases covered by Unsolved Mysteries? For me, this is a true win-win situation. I loved both of those shows.

Right now, the voting is really close. But if you want to get on and vote and you want other stuff, if you join at the $5 level, you get to vote. Plus you get bonus episodes. We've got Mary Kay Letourneau on there. We've got Jim Carrey's Wrongful Death suit. We've got a bunch of cases there. And you get to join the Discord.

If you're a baller, if you're just shot caller, if you're a billionaire, then you'll probably want to join at the Supreme Court level. Most likely. That's where you get all of those benefits, plus a sticker, plus an induction on the Supreme Court. And you get a monthly video because you're probably thinking, God, they sound like models. They sound hot, is what you're thinking. And boy, are you going to be disappointed.

They look like women in their 30s who grew up in the Midwest. Listen, gang, pear shape is the most desirable shape. Listen, gang, pear shape is the most desirable shape. I once read a book where someone described a woman as not curvy, just Midwestern. No. But I think it makes sense. Like, you know. We're just kind of.

We're just kind of. That's just the deal. That's just the deal, huh? What, Norm? Okay. Norm would like to not comment on this at all. He said this does not feel like safe territory. Yeah, talking in front of two Midwestern women.

Probably not. Okay. Should I jump into it? I guess. Okay. Let me just say. Yes, where does hazing deaths go? No.

God, what? I was really concerned. I think, well, no, we'll get into it and, you know, we'll get into it. Classic Kristen. I know. Let me tell you, nope, nope, nope. Let's wait until we get into it. Maybe I'm just excellent at giving cliffhangers. You ever think about that?

I was raised on Rocky and Bullwinkle, okay? Okay, so brief shout out. Some of this comes from an episode of, I've never heard of this show, The Shadows of Death. No, that is made up. You made that up right now. I swear, terrible name for a show. Terrible.

It's gotta be an ID show, right? Of course it is. What do you think? Terrible name for a show. I had very low expectations. Not a bad episode. The episode's called The Pledge. Also, there's an episode of Dateline about this, but I pulled a brandy where I read the article.

Oh. So I had to read it in my head in Keith Morrison's voice. Yes. But still, also, Wikipedia. Shout out to Wikipedia on this. Not some bad stuff there. Excellent. All right, here we go.

You ready for some fun? That's a really weird way to give a compliment. Not some bad stuff there excellent all right here we go you ready for some really weird way to give a compliment not some bad stuff i talk for a living i'm a professional podcast speaking of professional podcaster oh yeah so we got jack a set of dr seuss books for christmas yeah and so we read one like before he goes to bed at night. And so I usually read and like I sit in the middle and Jack sits on one side and David sits on the other. Yeah. Like look at the illustrations, whatever.

And so I pick a walk-in in my pocket when it was my turn to pick because that was one of my favorites. My mom used to read to me. And David picked Green Eggs and Ham when it was his turn to pick. And then Jack picked Fox and Socks. Have you ever fucking read Fox and Socks? um if i have it's been a long time it is intentionally a tongue twister book like that's what it is so i read it it was the hardest book i've ever had to read aloud but jack and david gave me a round of applause when i was done because they said i read it so good you know what that's what this podcast has all been about that That's preparing you for that moment. You guys, this is our last episode. I've peaked. Yeah.

Okay. Matt Carrington was widely considered to be a good guy. Friends say he was a little shy and reserved, but someone you could talk to. Someone with a bright future. Growing up, I'd say he seemed to have a pretty good life. His mom, Debbie, and her first husband had Matt through artificial insemination because Debbie just really, really wanted to have a child. In fact, she named him Matthew, which means a gift from God, because that's exactly how she saw her son. Eventually, when Matt was six, Debbie remarried and had another son. So Matt got to be kind of the fun, caring big brother. And after high school, he decided to stay close to home. He did his first two years of college at Diablo Valley College, which I assume is close by Joe's house. It's a community college

in California. And after that, he decided to go to Chico State University in Chico, California. It seemed like the perfect place for him. His childhood friend, Christy, was already there. So he went to visit her, thought it was great. He applied, started there in the fall of 2004. Isn't Chico where like the bad kid on the OC was from? I never watched the OC. Oh, Norm's thinking. Like he was like the bad boy and he, wasn't he from Chico?

Yeah, I'll Google. I'll give it the bad boy. And he, wasn't he from Chico? Yeah. I'll Google. I'll give it a go. I think he might be right. My understanding is that it's known as a party school. Yeah. So it makes sense that a bad boy would fit in there. Oh, you guys keep going with the story. I'll come in later.

We're going to wait here for you. Oh, man. So Matt and Christy hung out quite a bit, but eventually Christy was like, hey, you might want to meet some guy friends. Here, you should meet my boyfriend, Mike Quintana. He was from Chino. Oh. Chino.

It was way off. Big mistake. Samsonite. It was way off. Three people are going to catch that reference and they're going to love it. Mary Samsonite. What if it's called Chino State and I've got it wrong? No.

No. Not possible. Not possible. Okay. So pretty quickly, Mike and Matt hit it off and they became best friends. After a while, Mike told Matt, hey, I think I want to join a fraternity. Do you want to rush with me? This is probably where I should pause and say that I know nothing about fraternities or sororities.

The college I went to didn't have Greek life. So I'm doing my best. Yeah, and we had none of that in cosmetology school. So I went to an all-women's college, Simmons University. We always joke that the college was one big sorority, so there was no need for that. But I've been thinking about this, Brandy. You know how you always say you could get sucked into a cult, but when we talk about what cult you would get sucked into, none of them actually appeal?

Right. I think you would have done great in a sorority. I probably would have, yeah. I don't mean that in a shady way to sororities. I just think you like traditions, you like to be part of a group, and you know, you like to haze people. Wow! No. Mike wants to be part of a group and you know you like to haze people. Wow. No. Mike wants to join this fraternity. Matt's kind of like I mean he never expressed any interest in joining a frat. According to his friends and family that just really wasn't his scene.

He wasn't a big drinker you know. Yeah. But he must have figured, why the hell not? So together, Mike and Matt rushed Chi-Tao. Chi-Tao. Chi-Tea Latte. Which was the baddest bunch of boys in the whole darn town. Guess I go to Chi-Tao. Why does everyone laugh at us? Chi-Tao. Okay, quick side note on Kai Tao. Kai Tao had a terrible reputation. Of all

the frats and sororities at Chico State, they were like the bad seed. In fact, just a few years earlier, the university had expelled the frat for serving alcohol to minors. And at the same time, it lost its national charter. Wow. So it had been Delta Sigma Pi, P-H-I, Pi, right? Sure. I wish they would just spell it P-I-E for dummies like me. P-H-I is Phi. Phi. Okay. So it had been Delta Sigma Phi, but after serving alcohol to minors and, I mean, here it gets fun, accusations of sexual assault, instances of violence. One article said that one of them punched an officer, which, anyway, Delta Sigma Phi was like, peace out, dudes. We want nothing to do with you. But none of that really mattered. Kai Tao continued on. You know, they had their frat house on frat row or whatever you want to call it.

They had their little Greek letters out on the front of the house. They just weren't technically affiliated with the university. Okay. Or affiliated with a national organization. Right. So they were like a rogue fraternity. It's unclear what exactly Matt and Mike knew about all of this. Maybe nothing.

But at any rate, they just... I was going to say, would you know if the... I feel like if you were going to rush, surely you would know the basic reputations of different places. But you might not know that they'd lost their charter and that they weren't actually affiliated with the university anymore. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing is they were trying to get their university affiliation back. Obviously, it's not they might be like, we did lose it. You know, we had a party that got a little out of control, but we're going to get it

back, you know, blah, blah, blah. Right. That's my assumption is they're going to downplay it. And if you want to be part of the club, then you overlook that too. So they decided to rush. And that process took several months. According to some of his friends, Matt wasn't super into it, but, you know, whatever. Pretty soon the process would be over, he'd be a member of the frat, and things would settle down. But then, in late January and early February, came Hell Week. Are you familiar with this? Mm-hmm. Okay.

Only from what I've seen on TV. That's exactly how I'm familiar with it so my understanding from books and movies yes is that hell week is the week before you become an official member of the fraternity or the sorority and it's a really tough week they deprive you of sleep they have you do all these dumb okay kiki is being ridiculous right now guys but norm gave her a look yeah she knows she's in trouble. Oh, wow. She's really straightening it up now.

That's right. Okay. So the deal was, you were supposed to get through that week, and then you'd become the member of the frat. Yeah. But Matt didn't make it. Because at 525 in the morning, on February 2nd, 2005, a call came in to 911. It came from the Kai Tao fraternity house. And the caller was like, hey, we have someone here who went into seizures and we think

he's not breathing. So paramedics arrived on the scene and were told that Matt Carrington was in the basement and needed help. Okay, so they went down there and good god almighty this basement was disgusting and disturbing so in this episode of the show with the terrible name that i can't remember the shadows of death or whatever they showed actual crime scene footage of this nasty basement but then they also had tried to like reenact the basement you can't reenact this level of filth, even when you've got professionals trying to recreate it. You just can't. There were box fans, even though it was super freaking cold down there. There was this nasty couch that, I mean, who knows?

What do you think was on it? Oh, stop. I mean, ugh. How do you think it would look under a blacklight? It would just glow. There was a bar set up, graffiti everywhere, and not like cool, talented graffiti. It was like sad, gross graffiti. In one section of the basement, someone wrote, call your mom.

And in another, they wrote, in the basement, nobody can hear you scream. Oh, my gosh. Yep. Great. Great. Everything was askew. Everything was filthy. It was cold as ice because there were just

there were these vents down there that were just completely open to the outside. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And it's California, but still it's February. Yeah. Also, it reeked. There was raw sewage on the floor. Oh, my gosh. Three inches of raw sewage. What? Get this, a pipe had burst and no one had done anything about it. So there was just raw sewage all over this basement floor. So this place was a hellhole and the paramedics went down there trying to revive Matt and they asked the frat brothers to just level with him. Did this kid have a bunch of drugs? Did he drink too much?

You know, what's the deal? And the frat guys were like, no, no, he just drank water. He just drank a bunch of water. Okay. Yeah. Uh, yeah, super weird situation. Uh, Matt was just doing some calisthenics and, um, he had a seizure. And yeah, we're, we're real worried about him.

What did they do to him? Yeah. Paramedics were like, uh, thanks a heap. So they took him to the hospital. By the way, none of the frat bros went with him to the hospital. Of course they didn't. Meanwhile, Matt's mom, Debbie, was notified that her son was in the hospital. So she took off. But, you know, the hospital was a few hours away. Yeah.

So she didn't really know what was going on. She just knew she needed to get there quickly. So on the way there, she tried to call people. She called Matt's friends. She called the frat house. No one picked up. Then she got a call from a social worker at the hospital. And it seems like maybe this was a series of calls. Because the social worker kept saying, hurry, hurry, hurry. Please get to the hospital as quickly as you can. Get here as soon as you can. And finally, Debbie just said, feels like there's something you're not telling me.

What's going on? And that's when the social worker said he died. Oh, my gosh. So she and her husband and, you know, Matt's little brother pulled off to I think it was like a road stop or something and just cried. Of course. Turns out he had died not too long after he got to the hospital. I saw conflicting things. It looks like maybe an hour. Around that point, investigators showed up at the frat house and they examined the basement from hell. And then they talked to the frat brothers. Initially, the guys all had kind of the same basic story. Matt was pledging their fraternity and he and one other pledge had just been doing some calisthenics in the basement for about an hour.

And he'd had a seizure. That was that. No. Yeah, that's what the police said. First of all, nobody's going down to a basement filled with three inches of raw sewage to do calisthenics. Yeah. And first of all, who says calisthenics besides Lizzo? Yeah. You know, who are you, Lizzo? No. So police were like, a healthy young man worked out for an hour and died. No. Probably not. Nope. There's probably a lot more to this story. So they ended up taking a few

of them in for questioning. They told them that Matt had died. And everyone was kind of like, yeah, whoa, it's just a whole lot of nothing. Real mystery. Just a mild workout and a lot of water. A little bit of humiliation. But finally, the guys started to tell. One of the detectives described it as threads of the story, but it was Mike Quintana, Matt's friend and the guy who convinced him to pledge, who told the whole story. So here's the whole story. At the beginning of Hell Week, Kai Tao had five pledges, and over the course of one week, they were subjected to hazing that got progressively worse as the week went on. A frat brother named Jerry Lim was in charge of Hell Week activities.

As part of Hell Week, all the pledges had to sleep in the disgusting, freezing cold basement. Oh my gosh. No, it gets worse. But not just anywhere in the basement. They had to sleep in ventilation shafts. So one article described them as like concrete bunker-like holes. So you're just totally open to the elements. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's horrible. Each night had a different theme. One night was called active night. And that night, the pledges had to perform whatever exercises the frat brothers told them. One I heard was like just going up and down the stairs constantly. Oh my gosh. At some point in the night, the pipes in the basement backed up. So that's when the roughly three inches of sewage came in and the pledges were ordered

to take off their shoes and do crunches and pushups in raw sewage. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The next night was Pledge Olympics, where they had to do this insane workout until like 6 a.m. At some point in all of this, you know, they started with five and three of these guys were like, oh, fuck this. I am done.

I am done. Goodbye forever. But Mike and Matt stayed. So on the final and worst night of Hell Week, they were the two left standing. That night, the fraternity hosted movie night. For movie night, Mike and Matt had to go down to the basement, stand on a bench with a bunch of fans blowing on them, and they were given a five-gallon jug of water. So, like, picture, like, the Culligan bottles. And they were told to drink while

keeping just one foot on the bench, one foot off, and pass the jug and drink, pass the jug, drink, pass the jug. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. After a while, Mike and Matt obviously needed to use the bathroom, but the frat brothers wouldn't let them. Instead, they had to ask permission to urinate on themselves. This is fucking terrible. Yeah, it's awful. Oh my gosh. So they peed on themselves. They vomited on themselves. Meanwhile, the other members of the fraternity sat and watched a movie or played cards. Get it? Movie night. Yeah.

Okay. This is where I'm going to pause and say, I think the natural assumption is that these other frat guys were all like fellow students. Some of them weren't. Really? Yes. Some of them were students at Cal State Chico. Some of them went to the local community college and some weren't

students at all. Some were just dudes who had been part of the fraternity and were just hanging around. Oh my gosh. Real cool guys. So occasionally these guys would ask Mike and Matt trivia questions and if they got an answer wrong they'd turn on the fans and these guys who were already wet and freezing became even more cold at one point they told them you had to like pour one out for your homies and that meant that you poured some of the water jug over you so you were completely soaked and it was like 30 degrees yeah so we're all hearing this thinking this is horrible but you know it was no big deal because it was just water and all the members of kai tau had been through it themselves

plus it's not like movie night went on forever at least it wasn't supposed to what does that mean so the deal with movie night is they put on the movie they torture the shit out of you and then when the movie's over the torture is supposed to be over i mean people call it hazing i think this sounds like torture absolutely it sounds like torture. Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like torture. But here's the deal. When the movie ended, three frat brothers showed up at the house drunk. They'd been at a bar and they'd missed the fun. So they were like, no, it can't end now. This has to keep going. But Jerry Lim, who had been in charge up until that point, was like, I'm going to bed.

I've got class in the morning. So at roughly 1 a.m., this guy Gabe took over. He had them drink more water and continue with the exercises. Oh, gosh. At about 4 in the morning, Matt and Mike had consumed five and a half, five-gallon jugs of water. Shut up. So I've actually covered water intoxication on the podcast before, which I have to admit, before we did that, I had no idea what that was. But there is a limit to how much water you should drink.

And if you exceed that, like in this case, I mean, your brain can swell, your organs can swell, and it can kill you. So these guys had consumed 25 gallons of water. Finally, when they were doing push-ups, Matt collapsed. He had a seizure. His eyes rolled back in his head. He bit his tongue. So Mike scrambled to help him. He put his finger into Matt's mouth to stop him from biting his tongue so hard. And Matt bit him so hard that he started to bleed. Oh, my God. At this point, it was chaos. Mike says

that he was definitely feeling the effects of water intoxication. He described it almost as being actually drunk, like you can't think as clearly. He also said that his vision was getting blurry. I mean, you're just totally out of it. He yelled at the guys to call an ambulance, but he says that the guys were like, uh, uh, we're EMTs. Uh, we are, uh, we're affiliated with the fire department. What? We're, we're experts. Don't worry. Oh my gosh. Yeah. This is a sleep it off situation. That's what they said? So they pulled Matt and Mike onto a nearby couch, put Matt in dry clothes, and Matt fell

into, I guess, what appeared to be a deep sleep. You know, he has this seizure. He's not coming to. Then he started to snore, which is not sleepy time. An hour passed, and Matt stopped breathing. Mike yelled at the guys to call an ambulance, but he says he was still getting pushback. And then Matt started to foam at the mouth. Oh, my gosh.

So finally, at 525 in the morning, more than an hour after Matt collapsed, one of the fraternity brothers called an ambulance. The autopsy revealed that he had died from water intoxication, which, you know, your brain swells, your internal organs swell, and you can eventually die. He also died from hypothermia. Investigators broke the news to Matt's mom, Debbie, that her son had been killed in a hazing ritual. Matt's mom, Debbie, that her son had been killed in a hazing ritual. Apparently, she later found out at a press conference that they had waited an hour to call 911. That would be devastating. Yeah. I don't even know what to say. No. I think it's so tragic when people die at that point in their lives. Like, yeah, it almost feels like nothing's happened yet. You're at the start of

everything. Yeah. And then it's just over for something so stupid and preventable. Yeah. Obviously, someone needed to be held accountable for Matt's death. Turns out, though, that was pretty difficult to do. So why? Why shouldn't it be? Because there were direct individuals who were involved in this who were making them do the thing. So all of those people should be held accountable. Sure, sure. Makes sense, right? I mean, it seems to, to me. Tell me why I'm wrong. Okay, let's do the fun, quick, legal side note. Okay.

At this time in California, hazing was a no-no. I mean, it's not like okay anywhere. But the penalty for it was like laughable. The most they could do, even if you killed somebody, was slap you with a misdemeanor. Oh my gosh. For hazing. Now they could get you on other stuff, but for the hazing part, it's just a misdemeanor. Wow. And to make it even worse, that misdemeanor fell under the education code. It wasn't part of California's penal code. So fraternities and sororities. Penal. I knew I

was waiting for it. I knew when I wrote that that you were going to get hung up on the peen. Am I wrong? So fraternities and sororities, particularly a rogue, unaffiliated fraternity like Chi Tao, could potentially argue, hey, we're not a student organization, so you can't really punish us for hazing. Oh my gosh. I know. You can punish them for killing someone.

Sure, sure, you can do that. But, you know, it's going to be like involuntary manslaughter. It's going to be something like that. Yeah, and they're going to get 30 days of community service. Sure. It's not a real punishment. No. And you mean that both in the sense that 30 days of community service is not...

Yeah, they give you hours, not days. So the investigators and Matt's family and the DA all wanted justice, but that was going to be really tough. I did not write this down. Excellent. Everybody drink. But a student just a few years before at Chico State had died at a fraternity for alcohol poisoning. So this was like, this was something that really needed to be addressed. That really sounded like a trombone when you said it. What? When I said what? Really? Really? Yeah. It like came out of your mouth like a... What? When I said what? Really? Really? Yeah, it like came out of your mouth like a... Thank you. I appreciate that very much. So this was going to be tough, but then investigators uncovered a new piece of evidence. What is it? A video? A journal? A log of some

form? Oh, good thinking on the log, Brandy. Really? They learned that all the frats and sororities had to go through this training session at the university. And members of Kai Tao had actually shown up because, you know, they were trying to get their affiliation back with the university. At that training session, the instructor had talked about the dangers of water intoxication. So here's the deal. A year earlier, a student at some college in New York had died of water intoxication during a hazing ritual. So this instructor told everyone, hey, forcing someone to drink massive quantities of water

is the equivalent of like putting a gun to their head. Yeah. It could easily kill them, which seems a little extreme, but you know, yeah, okay. It paints a picture. Yeah. And the university just happened to have a copy of the sign-in sheet for that training session. And sure enough, a bunch of the guys who hazed Matt and Mike had all signed in to that training session.

So you're saying there was a log. There was a log. The DA was like, thank you very much. This is my smoking gun. And he filed charges. Norm, what's that log song? Let me see that log. No, from Ren and Snippy.

Log rolls downstairs and over in pairs and over your neighbor's dog. Great for a snack if it's on your back. It's log, log, log. It's log. It's log. It's big. It's heavy. It's wood. It's log, it's log. It's big, it's heavy, it's wood. It's log, it's log.

It's better than bad, it's good. I knew you would not let me down. How did you know he would? Everyone needs a log. You're gonna love it, log. Come on and get your log. Log, log. Yeah, I know that song. Well, obviously, yes.

You proved it, log. Yeah, I know that song. Well, obviously. You proved it, Norm. So he filed charges against eight of these guys. Some sources say seven. At any rate, this number does get whittled down over time. Anyway, the DA charged some of them with involuntary manslaughter, which carried a four-year prison sentence, not 30 days of community services. carried a four-year prison sentence, not 30 days of community services. And others just got charged with misdemeanor hazing, which carried a one-year maximum sentence. In a preliminary hearing, Mike Quintana was on the stand for five hours telling the story of what happened that night. Ultimately, the judge was like, yep, there's enough here to go to trial. Let's go. So a trial

was a coming. When the trial date got two weeks away, the frat boys got a little antsy. Yeah. They were like, oh, deal, deal. Anybody want to get a deal? Please, please, please. And the DA was like, maybe. It depends on what Matt's mom says. If Matt's mom is okay with you guys getting plea deals, then we can do plea deals. Wow. So Debbie Smith went to court and she announced that she would allow all the men to take plea deals. Oh my gosh. As long as...

What's the condition? They all agreed to work with her, educating college students about anti-hazing. Wow. So thanks to her generosity, the four men who were facing trial got plea deals. Holy shit. So in the episode of Dateline that I read, I did not watch, one of them said that the reason they were doing the episode of Dateline was part of this anti-hazing education. Wow. Yeah. Holy cow. So now for some last names that I'm going to fuck up. Okay, you ready? Yes.

Gabe Mastretti. Sure. Gabe Mastretti pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter and misdemeanor hazing. You know, he was the one who kind of took over after Jerry Lim went to bed. John J.P. Fikes and Jerry Lim pled guilty to being an accessory to manslaughter and misdemeanor hazing. And Carlos De Villa Abregue pled guilty and misdemeanor hazing. And Carlos De Villa Abreguet pled guilty to misdemeanor hazing. So Gabe got a year in prison. JP and Jerry got six months. And Carlos got three months. But you know, of all the frat brothers who were involved that night, Gabe was considered to be the ringleader. At the sentencing, Gabe said, I accept my punishment

with the hope that it will serve as a warning to others not to follow the path that I did. Hazing isn't funny. It's not cute. It's stupid, dangerous. It's not about brotherhood. It's about power and control. So this is the part that I'm getting to that I think makes this story more uplifting. Matt's death was not in vain.

In 2006, California got a new hazing law, and they called it Matt's Law. Under Matt's Law, hazing is treated as a felony, and it broadens the definition of hazing. And it's not just something that can only be punished if it's carried out by students or by people in a student organization. In other words, it doesn't matter if you're not enrolled as a student or if your frat is some total shithole that's not affiliated with anything you can still be prosecuted and it's going to be a felony good so that's the story of the death of matt carrington i i found this so interesting just because like i don't know i find it really scary the group think of like if we're like if we've been through this then it's fine.

Yeah. If somebody did this to me, then I can do it to you. And somehow it's not bad. Yeah. Yeah. It's terrifying. The Dateline episode had this angle to it that I thought was really stupid. The angle was that these guys hadn't called 911 soon enough because they were just so

desperate to regain their affiliation with the university, which maybe that's true. I think that's stupid. I think they were just dumb guys doing something awful. And then, oh, shit, something really bad happened. And they were hoping to God the kid would sleep it off. Yeah, everything would be fine. I think probably it's a combination of that. And then I think probably initially, they didn't take it as seriously as they should have. Yeah. I think another thing, because in some of the interrogation footage, some of these guys seem genuinely shocked, like it's just water, like we went through it, blah, blah, blah. But I think, and I don't know for sure, but I assume that when they did it, there were way more pledges to share the water. When you're down to just two guys sharing the water for an extended period of time. Yeah, of course, something's gonna happen. Right. Oh, that's terrible. I can't believe that mother letting them take a deal. I'm really impressed by her. It just I was thinking about her this morning. Like,

what a huge thing to ensure that you know, this horrible thing that happened to you and your family is now, you know, you're not going to just let it end there. I mean, she has done a lot to ensure that hazing doesn't happen anymore. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Were either of you hazed? Ever hazed? No. No.

Were you? Yeah. Really? What? In high school, yeah. We had hazing. Tell us about it. In band, we got hazed as freshmen. What? Yeah, at band camp. Well, tell us about it. One time at band camp you were hazed? This one time at band camp? I mean, it's not like we got flutes shoved up our butts or anything. It's good because that's exactly what we were all thinking uh it was pretty innocent it was you know they woke you up super early got you out of your bed and then they just like put like mayo and mustard all over you and like yeah gross condiments

and then you just took a shower and you're what do you mean all over you they were like poured on your head and stuff that sucks terrible yeah that's awful it sucked but like it was it was hard it was harmless i don't like it i think it's i don't like anything that is humiliation based yeah i don't either because that's supposed to make you feel really shitty and like yeah you're not going to get injured from being covered in ketchup but and then on in high school soccer we had just had to do embarrassing stuff so like all the seniors sat at the back of the bus when you went to a game. And they would call each freshman back. And they would have to like do something embarrassing or stupid.

Like do a freestyle rap or something like that. Yeah, I don't like any of that. No, I don't like that either. Yeah, that's the hazing I went through. And you know how good I am at freestyle rap. My name is Kristen and I'm here to say that doing drugs is not okay. Every one of Kristen's freestyle rap starts with my name is Kristen and I'm here to say. Hey, people need to know.

I'm just like Jason Derulo. People need to know my name. No, I think those all suck, Norm. Yeah, those are terrible. And I think your coaches sucked for not putting an end to that. You're right. You know what? I'm going to call them up and say.

You suck. You suck. You should haze them now. Like, what's the lesson of this? I don't know. Yeah, there's no lesson there. No, I'm trying to think. Okay, so I was in, I don't mean to brag to you guys, but in high school I was in yearbook,

newspaper, and the literary magazine. And yeah, there was no hazing it was more like so cool more like thank god someone showed up we'd be a fool to put ketchup on her yeah no i was never involved in anything where any kind of hazing took place norm did you recover okay from that yeah as i'm sitting here today with you all well but you quit both of those things i didn't quit because of hazing well right right you think yeah deep down it was i think that would set deep down with me honestly like i don't think it affected me in any way i wouldn't even be able to handle being the people that are there seeing it not even being subjected to it like yeah that would gross me out just like the secondhand embarrassment for the person that's

having to do that stuff would i think we should i mean yeah hazing's dumb we should what kristen this is this is a terrible thing to say and maybe we'll cut it but i've been thinking about the type of person who really loves hazing others. And, you know, you think back to like the Holocaust and you're like, I was going to say, are you going to call them Hitler? No, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. I am not calling them Hitler.

But, you know, you do wonder about all the dudes Hitler found to carry out this batshit stuff and who enjoy doing all this stuff. I'm like, hmm, find the people who love hazing. They're going to be your next Nazis. Okay, we should probably. Whoa, that's a stretch. A little bit of a stretch there. Hey, well, if we've got any weirdo alt-right people listening, that's my tip to you.

Jesus Christ. You guys, hold on. You really think I'm wrong? You don't think there's something really dark about people who want to have power over others and want to humiliate others? Yeah, I think there's something really dark about that. I also think it would be really easy to get swept up into like a group mentality. And this is what everybody's doing.

It's also a maturity thing. I mean, we were all kids. Yeah. Little baby Nazis. We're all Hitler youth. Just hate them. All right. We're all Hitler youth. Just hate each other. All right. Well, maybe we should cut.

All right. We're ready to liven it up and talk about a family tie later. You mean my Nazi talk really brought us down? Sorry about that. Shit. Oh, man. I'm sorry, but. Okay.

Wait, you gotta make another point here? I'm sorry, because I've got my bubble tea stuff in my mouth and now okay who do you think they find to like run the death camps and run all that shit um it's really twisted people one day they had ketchup in their hands now they have guns holy shit are you saying holy shit because i just blew your mind and made such an excellent point? I'm saying holy shit because my guess would be the majority of the people who carried out the orders at the death camps were people who did it because they thought that's how they didn't get killed. Sure. But then there's the people who like it. I agree. I agree.

There were people that liked it. I'm saying I found the people who liked it. And they're the same people who love to haze. Do not at me, Brandi. I will write a textbook about this. Excellent. Please do. Okay. Let's talk about some family annihilation. Oh, great.

Shout out, first of all, to Marissa Kay in the Discord for this recommendation. Or as Norm calls her. Marisak. What a beautiful name. Yes. Also, thank you to Kim Jansen for the Chicago Sun-Times and Emily Thompson for Morbidology for great articles on this case. Okay. Georgetown, Texas. Today is a booming suburb of Austin, home to more than 70,000 people. But in 1967, it was much smaller with a population of around 5,000. Oh, wow.

And it was much more rural. Yes, it's like the seventh fastest growing city in the United States. Okay. Its biggest claim to fame at the time that this case takes place was that it was home to the oldest university in Texas, Southwestern University. Okay. And which was like founded in the 1800s. So Georgetown, Texas, small rural suburb in 1967,

just outside Austin. Southwestern University's there. Not that well known of an area with 5,000 people. Pretty small town. Or if you're in a pretty big city. Man, it kills me that he is gone while we make fun of him. Yes. But something would happen here on August 5th, 1967 that would put Georgetown on the map.

Was it a family annihilation? Might have been. I'm sorry. I'm trying to do spoilers for you the way you did for my Carol Burnett case. I swear you told me somewhere that it was a success. No, I did not. And just come up with that on my own. I'm afraid you did. 15-year-old James Gordon Walcott was a straight A student with a genius

level IQ. We're talking like the top 1%. Why are these people always really smart? So there's theories on that. Oh, really? Yeah. So there's theories about why geniuses turn into psychopaths or things like that, which I'm not saying that's what this guy is. But there's a theory that I've read about that says it's because they don't relate to anybody else, because their mind works so differently works on such a different level than the average person. And so they feel very isolated and very alone. Why are you laughing at that? I'm just thinking.

I'm dumb enough that that's never been a problem. It's never been my problem either. I've never entered a room and been like, these people just don't get me. But there is something to be said if you feel like no one can relate to the way that your mind works. Sure. Yeah.

So you'd have to kill everybody. Exactly. Or haze them. Or haze them. And then when some new guy comes around. It's the natural progression. Right. So he's this really smart kid. His dad is a professor at Southwestern University. And he obviously does very good in school but he's kind of nerdy looking he's got glasses he's kind of tall and lanky he's got braces and I think head gear at that point if you're in 1967 yeah yeah it's not I think like at night you wear head gear I don't think it's something yeah hopefully you don't have to yeah yeah he I think is in the high school band just maybe not doing his you, he's not socially doing that great. Okay.

And he didn't feel like he fit in with his family. So his dad was very conservative. His mom was very into religion. And then he had a sister. So his, oh gosh. What? His dad's name was Gordon. So his name was, he's James Gordon.

Yeah. His mom's name was Elizabeth. And his sister's name was gordon so his name was yeah he's james gordon yeah his mom's name was elizabeth and his sister's name was elizabeth of course it was this is like the second or third case you've covered where the mom and dad give the name yes how do they keep it all so i think they called the sister libby and then james gordon the son i think he they called him jim or jimmy okay so they didn't call him gordon and the dad went by gordon yeah so keeping it all straight And then James Gordon, the son, I think they called him Jim or Jimmy. Okay. So they didn't call him Gordon and the dad went by Gordon. Yeah. So keeping it all straight. Uh-huh.

One of the articles calls Elizabeth, Elizabeth Jr., but I can't imagine they were calling her that. No, no one's ever been called Elizabeth Jr. ever. I don't think so either. So he really felt like he did not fit in in his family. So his mom's super into church. His dad's very conservative. And this is 1967. And James is feeling more and more drawn to the counterculture. So like the peace loving hippie culture. He's very into like the anti Vietnam War protest.

Did not enjoy that started growing his hair long. He wanted to attend all of these peace rallies in Austin, and his dad had forbidden it. He was like, no, you're too good for that. You're too smart for that. Do not give peace a chance. Do not give peace a chance. There's a reason we're at war. You know, all of that. And so it was really just, he just felt like he did not fit in in his family.

His sister spoke with a very heavy, like, Texas accent. And he was, like, ashamed of that. He thought it made her sound uneducated. Oh, wow. Yeah. So he purposely changed the way he spoke. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it was like a conscious decision of his to not speak that way. And he didn't understand why she couldn't do that same thing. Yeah, I think that goes back to not understanding that your brain functions at a very different level than somebody else's. See, I don't think that's it at all. You don't. No, I think that's internalizing other people's stereotypes about Southern accents.

Yeah. I mean, that could be too. Because I think a lot of people change the way they speak because they're afraid it'll make them sound dumb. Yeah. Did I convince you on that? No. I mean, I think that's...

I was trying to get you on that and the Nazi thing. I think you make a fair point. No, you've not convinced me on either point. Oh, damn it. But I think you do make a fair point so it is to the point that he is considering ending his own life because he has convinced himself that his family is going out of their way to make his life miserable and to drive him crazy wow so in the weeks leading up to August 5th, 1967, he snart, he snarts. Nothing more embarrassing than a snart.

By the way, if anyone needs a new word of the day, snart, sneeze and a fart. He starts sniffing airplane glue oh well i'm sorry i don't mean to laugh at that but it's just now that i know the words you were trying so airplane airplane glue so like model okay yeah so at that time that glue was like super potent like there'd be all these warnings all over the models that you needed to be in a well-ventilated area. And so he is snorting. What is the matter with me? Sniffing this glue constantly. And everyone's making fun of him for snorting all the time.

And so he's basically constantly high. Right. And during that time, he makes multiple attempts to end his life and in his words he chickens out every time okay so then a plan formulates in his brain go ahead i was just gonna say up until well i don't know if they still say this but cans of rubber cement used to say that women contemplating pregnancy should not smell that stuff. Really? Which I think is so funny.

You can't even think about it. Think about pregnancy. Don't even let pregnancy enter your mind. You can think about a ton of shit. Don't worry about it. So if you're making a vision board, don't even think about putting a pregnant lady on there. You better get some Elmers for that. So he formulates a plan it's about a week before august 5th at this point and he decides i don't have to kill myself oh lord i'll kill my entire family oh then i'll be free to do all of the

peace rally that i want to do i love love peace so much that I'm going to murder some people. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. You're going to fit in great in prison. You're going to love it. Yeah. So he makes this plan. He puts the plan into action on August 5th, 1967.

His father is sitting in the living room that night reading a book on the couch. He goes up to him and shoots him twice with a.22 caliber rifle. What the hell? He then goes to his sister's room, and she is in bed. He shoots her twice, once in the head, once in the chest, with the same rifle. Then his mother, Elizabeth, hearing the shots, comes out of her bedroom, just near Libby's room, and he turns and he shoots her twice so six six shots and the whole family is dead then he goes and hides the rifle in the attic and sometime

later I don't know if it was he hid the murder weapon in the house that's correct are you sure he was a genius he was also high on airplane glue I mean okay that just brings him down to my level so at this point i don't know how much time went by but at some point he then runs out into the street and flags down a car and in the car there are three young men who are just like passing through town they're on their way to houston I think it's late at night when this happens. And so he runs out there, he flags down, he says, my God, my God, help me. Someone shot up my family. And so he's like in a panic. He's crying. He's whatever. The men stop, they pull over, they stop the car. One gets out and goes to the neighbor's house and it's like pounding on the door. The other ones come to the family house. And when they get

inside, James Walcott does something weird. And he like gets down on his hands and knees and he's like pounding on the floor saying, why, why? Like just a very odd reaction to the situation. Is it really that odd? I mean, I feel like I'd be if assuming that like someone's family had truly all been shot, if they dropped to the ground and pounded on the ground and cried and said, why? I don't know that I'd be like, oh, this is weird. All right. And maybe they didn't think it was weird. I thought it was weird. Yeah. What do you want him to do? I don't know. Well, I don't know what I want him to do. I don't know what a normal reaction is, but I... Exactly.

Then quit it with your normal stuff. So the men go into the house and are met with a horrible scene. There's a dead body in every room of the house, essentially. They walk through it. At some point, they get the police there. I don't know if they called from the Walcott home or if they were able to get the neighbors to call. But the police eventually show up. And they take James Gordon Walcott to his church to sit with his pastor. Oh, boy. Okay, so this is so interesting

to me, because this is so similar to what happened in the Lowly Andrews case that I did. Yes. And that's the Patreon bonus episode, right? No, I think that was a regular episode. Oh, well, shit. Someone just signed up for the Patreon for no reason. I think that's a regular episode. So they like tranquilized him at this point because he's so hysterical. And so they take him and they basically sit him with the family minister so that he can

calm him down and give him the word of God and whatever. Yeah. So he's sitting with the minister and then all of these police show up to try and get a statement from him to figure out what happened. And he's there a very short time with the police there before one of this, there's like this Texas Ranger that's there, which is like a specially trained police officer. So he gets James Gordon Walcott to waive his rights, essentially. And then he says to him that it's time to square himself with the Almighty.

Boy, okay. And so at that point, James Gordon Walcott turns to his pastor and he confesses the whole thing that he had killed his family. And he's like, like okay so did you do it because you hated your parents because you hated your family and he says yes wow and then they take him to the scene and he walks them to the attic and shows them where the murder weapon is and then he walks them through how he committed the murders and he talks about his motivation behind it that he'd done it because there was an anti-war march the next day in austin that he wanted to go to and so this was the day that he needed to do it

so that he could go to the march that his father had forbidden him to go to well you can't argue with logic like that yeah and then he talked about how he was convinced that his family was intentionally trying to drive him mad drive drive him out of his mind. His mom chewed extremely loudly. He felt like she did it. This is legit what he said. Oh my god. He felt like she was doing it on purpose. And he felt that his sister Libby was making her accent worse on purpose just to get at him and that his dad was constantly shutting down his beliefs in the counterculture and his peace loving whatever. And this was all intentional moves by them to drive him legitimately crazy. My dad is a very loud cereal eater. So on some level, I relate. So they arrest him, obviously. And then in the weeks that followed, as they're moving towards charging him with these

crimes and moving towards a trial, he is seen by somewhere between six and 10 psychiatrists. He's heavily examined. He's put through all kinds of tests. And when his trial comes about in February of 1968, the prosecutor puts on all of these people, all of these police and people who were present at the scene and people who knew the family and try and paint him as this bad seed that did this to get away from his family because he didn't get what he wanted. And then the defense put on all of these like 10 psychiatrists on the stand and all of them told the exact same story that they had diagnosed him with paranoid schizophrenia and that he truly believed that his family was trying to drive him crazy but that was a symptom of his schizophrenia yeah yeah and that he was delusional and that the sniffing of the airplane glue had just like exacerbated those symptoms And so he had no remorse over what he had done. He was in custody when the funerals took place and they told him that he was allowed to go,

that he could be there. And he said, I don't see why that's necessary. Oh, wow. Yeah. So he had no remorse for what he'd done. He didn't really see that he should be punished for it. He really had no understanding of what he had done. Yeah. And so the prosecution tried their best to like have these police officers say that, yeah, he knew exactly what he'd done. Like he admitted everything to us. It just didn't work. He was found. Yeah. Yeah. Not guilty. I mean, if you're sick, you're sick. Yeah. And so at this trial, he was found not guilty by reason of insanity. And he was sentenced to be held in a mental facility indefinitely. Yeah.

He never took the stand or anything at his own trial. However, when the not guilty by reason of insanity verdict was read, he like flushed, like he turned red and then he smiled. Oh, weird. Yeah. Very weird reaction. Now that is weird,, weird. Yeah, very weird reaction. Now that is weird, Brandy. It is a weird reaction.

And then shortly after, he did some kind of little interview with police, and he was asked if the sentence made him happy. And he smiled and said yes. Why? I don't know. Wow. So for the next six years, James Gordon Walcott spent his time in the Rusk State Hospital. He went through rigorous treatment and counseling and all of that.

And then in 1974, he went back before the court. And after 10 minutes, a jury declared him sane. 10 minutes? 10 minutes. Tell me more. So I don't know exactly what took place at this hearing, but it was before a judge and before a jury. And the jury was given the task to declare him sane or say that he needed more treatment. Yeah. And in 10 minutes, they declared him sane. Wow. And so he was released.

And at the time of his release in 1974, he was allowed to change his name because around georgetown he had become a very well-known everybody knew figure absolutely and then he kind of just faded into obscurity no one really knew what happened to him until 2013 so sometime in like 2011 this weekly paper in georgetown called the geor Georgetown Advocate was like following up about this story on him. And they decided they'd see if they could track him down, see where he was these days, see what he'd done with his life since his release. And so they spent two years investigating him. And then in 2013, they released an expose about him, completely revealing his new identity and what he'd done with his life over the past, what, from 70 to 2013, so 40 years. It turns out that James Gordon Walcott had changed his name to James St. James.

He'd enrolled at Stephen F. Austin University in Texas, and he'd done really well there. He'd actually then continued on to get his master's and his Ph.D. and was now a very esteemed tenured professor at a small private college in Decatur, Illinois. Whoa. What college? Milliken. Huh. OK. I had never heard of it.

He was, in fact, so at this time that this expose comes out on him, he's 61 years old and he's the chairman of the behavioral sciences department at Milliken. No. Yes. So when this comes out, his whole past is revealed. Yeah. And he's made like this great life for himself. Yeah.

And now all of it is questioned because of something he did when he was 15 years old. When he was untreated for schizophrenia. Yeah. He's a doctor now and a tenured professor and he teaches psychology and he's the head of the behavioral sciences unit like and all of that comes under question because of this expose article that's released so a couple of things the editor of the georgetown advocate kathy pain at the time i don't know if she's still the editor the actual article itself is no longer available i was gonna say that seems really iffy that's a private person i. So she said at the time that they released the article, she said it was a difficult decision to publish the facts about St. James because undoubtedly he has a lifetime of many accomplishments. She said that gave us pause before releasing the story.

However, as we got further into the case and each time we looked at the pictures of Gordon, Elizabeth and Libby, we felt like they needed someone to speak for them. Dr. St. James has had a lifetime to speak for himself, but who would speak for them if we remained silent? That's kind of high and mighty. I think it's super high and mighty. Because they were represented in a court of law. Yeah, I agree. So when they were researching this article when they'd finally tracked him down they actually did sit down with dr saint james yeah and tell him that they were going to put out this article but he refused to comment on it he refused to give an interview yeah and to date he has not given any interviews about his past or about this story coming out about him yeah but there was big

fallout from it people called for his resignation They called for the college to fire him. It was like a shockwave. Yeah. Well, that would be shocking. Absolutely. So one person who spoke out about it was this guy, Jerry Dawson. And he was a former sheriff, I think, in Decatur. And then he was also a city council member at the time that this all came out. And he said that he thought that it was wrong of Dr. St. James to not tell the college of his past at the time of his hiring. He said that that was something that he should have disclosed. And this is what he said. He said, I look at this from a law enforcement perspective, and I just have a problem with somebody who didn't disclose this information.

If I were a parent and my kids were going to Milliken, that's something I would want to know. What do you think? I disagree. I think that he has been deemed sane. He's been given a new life. He's done something with it. Why does he have to say what happened in his past? A court has ruled that he's allowed to leave that in the past. By giving him a new identity, that's what they did. What do you think? I don't know. I'm kind of torn. I'm kind of torn. We don't let sex offenders leave it in the past. We put them on a registry. Yeah. But I do think that's different when it's someone who had a mental illness that was not being treated. And, you know, I assume if they're getting treatment, then that kind of thing is not going to happen again. Yeah. I don't know. So all of these people are calling for his resignation.

But the university stood by him. Milliken University allowed him to keep his job. They said. It's really hard to lose tenure. Although I guess if there were a way to do it, this would be it. I think this would be it. Yeah. They said for 27 years, Dr. St. James has taught a variety of courses at Milliken. He

served in various leadership roles and built a successful academic career. He's received academic awards, including the 1997 Teaching Excellence and Leadership Award. Given the traumatic experiences of Dr. St. James' childhood, his efforts to rebuild his life and obtain a successful professional career have been remarkable i agree with that yeah another person who commented on it was the district attorney at the time in i believe decatur and she said it seems really odd to me that he hated his father enough to kill him but here he is living his father's life oh okay okay and i don't agree that's what he's doing. I think he did the opposite. I think that he got all of this education to learn why he did what he did.

Well, and I understand that in that state of mind, he said, Yeah, I hate my parents. I hate my family. That's why I did this. That's not why he did it, though. So as a DA, yeah, to come in after the fact and say, Oh, I think it's interesting that blah, blah, blah, blah. Shut up. Yeah. What do you think? Do you think that this was in poor taste that this newspaper? Yeah, I do think.

I do too. I think it's really poor taste. And I think it speaks a lot to that article. So a bunch of the articles that I used as source material for this actually link to the original article. And the original article has been taken down. It is no longer available online. The original article has been taken down. It is no longer available online.

I think it's a really weird use of a newspaper's limited time and resources. To spend two years tracking this guy down. It makes me wonder, like, okay, what's the... Do you think somebody had, like, a personal attachment to this? Yeah, it had to be something. Because I would assume that, you know, if someone has been granted a new identity, then it's going to be really iffy from a legal standpoint about whether you can reveal who they are and what they've done. So that just seems it seems weird to spend that much time on something that would be so iffy. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's unethical. I don't know. Yeah. So the university

stood by him and lots of students who had had him over the years to buy him. One in particular published like an editorial in the Daily Beast. He was a former student of Dr. St. James. And this is like a snippet of what he said in the Daily Beast. He said, Dr. St. James has not willingly spoken to the media about his past, and I can't blame him. But days before I wrote this piece, I sent a message to him offering him my support of the new life he had created. I didn't expect a reply considering the amount of mail this news storm must have created for him. But whatever you may believe of Dr. St. James and his past, in his present, he is a teacher first and foremost.

Despite the current news cycle, he remains responsive and available to students both past and present. He answered my email with the same intelligence and willingness for discourse that I remember from his classroom years ago. As one who has had the privilege of teaching both high school and college students, I find great good in his commitment to his students as well as his dedication to the profession. He has spent his adult life serving. Does this negate the horror of what happened in 1967? No, nothing can.

But knowing that he has devoted his life to a purpose that might save other families the same terrible fate he visited upon his own, to me that is far more justice than most victims ever receive. on his own. To me, that is far more justice than most victims ever receive. So maybe I'm naive. Perhaps it is my fervent wish that people can be redeemed that makes me write these words. But I stand by Dr. James St. James, and I am hopeful that since he demonstrated that there is a way out of darkness that others can find it too. To this day, according to Milliken University's website, Dr. St. James is still employed there. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. I think that that would have had to have been terrible to go through for him. Like you've spent your life trying to, and this is just my assumption on why he went the direction that he did in behavioral sciences and psychology to try and understand himself and what he went through and help others like that's my assumption and why yeah yeah but to spend your life doing that and then bestowing that knowledge on other people and then for somebody to come by come out of the woodwork and want to just blow your whole past open i think that would be terrible to go through but at the same time he did what he

did and maybe you don't get to leave that in the past. Yeah, I think it's, I think it would have been pretty naive if he really thought. He could leave that all behind. Yeah. Now, I do think it's, like I said, I think it's really weird that a newspaper went to that length to do that. Yeah. But I think it would have been really naive of him to think that. No one would ever find out.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I do agree with that. Doesn't make it any less hard. Yeah. When it does happen. But. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That was a crazy story. Isn't that a crazy story? Yeah. And I do agree with that. Doesn't make it any less hard when it does happen.

But yeah. Wow. Yeah. That was a crazy story. Isn't that a crazy story? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you to Marissa Kay. I had never heard of that. She, like I said, mentioned it in the Discord. And I think it's a really interesting one.

Really brings up some interesting questions. Way to go, Marisak. Thank you. Norm, what you got for us? We've got questions. Oh, God. Squirrel Mama wants to know what your favorite animals are. Oh.

Okay, when I was a kid, I loved frogs. I collected frog stuff. You were obsessed with frogs. Loved frogs. Do you still like frogs? I mean, frogs are fine. But like, you know, she was one of those, like, your mom's obsession with gingerbread. Your mom has gingerbread everything.

Oh, yeah. Brandy had frog everything. I had lots of frog stuff. Didn't you have, like, frog wallpaper in your room? Or am I making that up? No, I didn't have frog wallpaper. I did have a frog poster on the wall. Okay, that's a far cry from a wallpaper.

Yeah, I had a big a frog poster on the wall okay that's a far cry yeah big tree frog poster on the wall no frog wallpaper though you just think they looked cool yeah i really enjoyed them no if i had to pick a favorite animal now it'd be a dog obviously obviously we've got one right here love dogs big fan of dogs going right here forget about that time she kicked one in the face so i have to tell you a story about what so there's these people that live in my neighborhood that have two corgis uh-huh and every time they're out i like want to go pet them and i'm like so i only see them like when i'm driving because they like walk through the neighborhood or whatever so when i'm driving through the neighborhood towards my house i'll see them and i get very excited yeah so then i'll tell david that the corgis were out. And he's like, you stay away from those corgis.

So yesterday I was really excited because they were out. And David was like, just go up and ask if you can pet them sometime. And I was like, I will. Just building up to it. Do you want to tell the people about, I mean, I know we've told it on the podcast. Oh, Brandy. I still feel really bad about it. I kicked a poor corgi in the face.

You didn't mean to. No, it was a complete accident. But I still feel terrible bad about it i kicked a poor corgi in the face you didn't mean to no it's a complete accident but i still feel terrible about it and he forgave me yeah like immediately yeah he let me pet him he got very he was very excited to see me but i did kick him right in the face she was wearing flip-flops i hate to see it folks person you got a favorite yeah dogs cats you know whatever wow i like a lot of animals i also like if we're talking about like wild animals i love elephants because elephants never forget they're the most like humans they recognize faces they have complex emotions like very complex memories i think they're very interesting animals yeah so if you kick one of those in the face. They're never going to forgive me. Yeah.

Well, an elephant never forgets. That's right. Your favorite wild animal? Oh, God. Animal lover Kristen over here. Yes. For real. I tell you what, if I'm in a zoo situation, I always want to see the cats.

So the lions, the panthers, you know. Oh, yeah. Tigers. always want to see the cats so the lions the panthers you know yeah tigers yeah well norm would you tell them this story about when we were at the kansas city zoo and your mom sorry what happened to your mom at the kansas okay so in the kansas city zoo there's this section of um the lion's den yeah where like you kind of go into this thing and there's a big window, like a big glass pane. And the lions will sometimes come right up to it. And there was one that was right up against the window. And it had its belly up to the sun.

And Norman had his camera out. And he was bending down to take a picture. And I don't know, it was the angle of where he was standing and all this stuff that Norman's mom thought he was zooming in and getting a picture of the lion's crotch. And so she was like, Norm! Norm, why were you taking inappropriate pictures of that lion? You should have seen that lion's dick. It had to be photographed.

I said, look at that D. Look at that A. I gotta get a pic of this. You got a favorite animal, Norm? I do love my kitty cats. Yeah? But wild animals, I've always loved turtles. Love turtles.

I like turtles. I like turtles. I like turtles. God bless that kid. Old timey disclaimer. Hey, hey. A regular in the Discord wants to know, what is your normal pre-recording routine? Oh, we go to lunch before we record. So here's what happens.

Okay. Brandy rings the doorbell. Peanut barks like crazy. Yes. Brandy gets scared every okay brandy rings the doorbell peanut barks like crazy yes brandy i answer the door brandy walks in boy you're really giving them all the details brandy takes three steps and then says hi peanut i knew that's the first thing i always she's always the first i greet oh yeah sure and then we decide where we're gonna go for lunch before we record yeah go eat lunch we come back we set everything up and then we record yeah and then that's pretty much it that's that's usually it and then i usually leave right after record because i gotta go bowl

sometimes if we're feeling real saucy i was thinking frisky too. We'll, after lunch, we'll go get custard. Custard. It's true. It is true. And that's the time when we took DP. And he got, he ordered a quart of custard. He's like, it's the same price. We went in to get custard and he ordered a quart of custard. So he's sitting there at the custard place. We had like our cups of custard and my dad had a quart of custard.

That he's eating with a plastic spoon. One plastic spoon. He was very odd looking. Save money, live better. That's the Daryl Pitts motto. Got a few questions about this. So possible baby names for Brandy's baby. Oh, should I reveal?

Yeah, so it's Kristen if it's a girl and Norman if it's a boy. That's exactly right. Beautiful. Norman's already been declined. So should I reveal the names? We've actually picked names. Have you really? Yeah. Let's a boy. That's exactly right. Beautiful. Norman's already been declined. So should I reveal the names? We've actually picked names. Have you really? Yeah.

Let's hear them. Well, I haven't even heard. Damn it. Yes. Okay. So if it's a girl, it'll be London. And if it's a boy, it'll be bear. Oh, how do you spell? Like the animal.

Okay. Yeah. Very cool. Yes. So we don't know sex yet. Hopefully in a couple of weeks, we'll know. I like the name London. Yeah. Like the animal. Okay. Yeah. Very cool. Yes. So we don't know sex yet. Hopefully in a couple weeks we'll know. I like the name London. Yeah.

That's cool. Let's see. Ooh. Amber wants to know, have either of you actually ever been to court? No. Oddly enough, I didn't even have to go to court for my divorce. Well, yeah, because you just did the papers. Yeah.

Yeah. I've never been to court for anything i did have to go to court for something what was it i feel like that crime spree you on it was that crime spree but how dare you reveal my identity after all this time now that i'm a tenured podcaster i feel like one time the you know county reporter was sick and i had to go fill in and i didn't know my ass from my elbow so i i don't know i feel like one time the you know county reporter was sick and i had to go fill in and i didn't know my ass from my elbow so i i don't know i feel like one time i went to court but it was to cover something so it wasn't like i did get called for jury duty one time so i had to go to the court

house but i was in a reserve pool and so i just sat in a room for four hours and then got released is that what happened to you norm too uh yes i never even got to see a fucking courtroom i was pissed yeah they paid me 17 i didn't even get that much i think i got like seven bucks jackson county does not does not have the funds to pay i've never been called again i've never been called well you get on a list like they won't call you for like five years or something and then i feel like my time isn't coming oh i had to go to court for a speeding ticket that's about it you think they'd let us serve on a jury though i don't know i've thought about that yeah for a long time i thought that my one semester of law school would make me disqualified i don't think so no one cares

about that um but i bet because we have a... I bet the podcast would definitely. And that you're both incredibly racist. Hey, I just think everyone's a Nazi. That's different. You were just given power over the world for a day. What's the one thing you make mandatory? I would make... Flirty QWERTY asses, by the way.

She does mention, you can answer this seriously, but it's more fun if you don't. Yeah, thank you. I have my answer prepared. Norm, please stop interrupting me. Okay. I would make all McDonald's go back to having chocolate in their ice cream machines because I love a chocolate cone or a twist cone and you can't get those anywhere anymore. So for one glorious day, you would return to that?

Yeah. You're not going to do world peace. You're going to do the chocolate and the ice cream. That's the one power. Listen, I'm fucking pregnant. Yeah, good point. What was the question again? You are...

Okay, well, you don't have to read it. You're a king of the world for one day. You're given power over the world for one day. What is the one thing you make mandatory? So Brandy is demanding McDonald's put chocolate ice cream back in their machines. Yeah. What about, can you make them work again too? Because like they never work anymore.

I know, right? Yeah. Well, if they have to put the chocolate, they got to fix them too. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Make it a mandatory thing. Yeah. I think Kristen would make it so

that all husbands are required to let their wives buy two pies oh oh brandy too soon too soon you know what we're gonna talk about it you guys yesterday was a rough day in the Caruso household. Norman and I had two arguments, which is a banner day for us. One of them, we went to our local grocery store, which makes amazing pies. Amazing pies. My whole thing, the reason I wanted to go was for a pie. Okay, we get there, and

Norman wanted a fruit pie, and I was just looking at these fucking things. I was like, there is no way in hell those fruit pies are as good as their cream pies. I'm looking at them. I can tell. And so I was like, well, maybe we could get two pies. And he was like, two pies? Norm, you're being really quiet.

You want to tell him what you said? He would not like to. No, go on. I'll give my side of the story. He shamed me. He shamed me. And I was like, all right, I get the picture. Oink, oink, can't have two pies.

So we got one pie. It was not that great. And of course, Norman. Not nearly as good as those cream pies they make. Yeah, and Norman, of course, got ice cream. Don't laugh at cream pies, Norm. What are you, 12? Stop it.

Stop it. Stop it. Norman got all the things he wanted to get. But anyway. Here's Norman's side of the story. Norman's side of the story. Kristen wanted a pie. So we go over to where the pies are. We're looking at all the pies.

Kristen asked me, what pie looks the best to you? And I said, I think an apple or peach pie sounds pretty good. And then, because Kristen's think an apple or peach pie sounds pretty good. And then, because Kristen's the one that wanted the pie, so I assumed she would just pick whatever pie she wanted. I just gave my opinion on what I thought the best pie looked like. And then she wanted two pies, and I did say, I don't think it's necessary to get two pies, because I just didn't think we needed two pies. I thought one pie would be enough for both of us. But I apologize if I shamed you. It's not my intention.

You apologize if you shamed me. Yeah, David did one of those apologies the other day. I apologize if I made you blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, that's a great apology. Well done, sir. I apologize if you feel that i apologize if you're crazy enough to take offense i apologize for shaming you all right thank you thank you next time i'm buying 15 pies and you can deal with it all right we're going to need some more patrons.

We were having a rough day. Wait, did you ever answer the question? No, we didn't. Who cares? I'm all fired up again. Oh, oh, for my one day of power, everyone would get whatever pie they want, as many pies as they want, and their spouses, partners, whatever. No one gets. You can suck a big old day.

You know what? If you know what pie you want, don't ask me what pie looks good. If you know what pie you're going to get. Well, I wanted us to collaborate. But you're the one that wanted the pie. You should have just grabbed the pie you wanted. But I wanted your opinion, too, because you were going to eat the pie, too. too so when you you were like i want one of these i like the peach pie looked good i didn't say get the peach pie i just said is that what you guys bought the peach pie yeah

i think it sounds delicious it wasn't that good i thought it was good it wasn't bad but it was no cream pie no cream pie you just left kristen with a hankering for cream puffs? Stop it. Don't laugh at that. It's not funny. Stop it. Bring the brandy. It's not funny. Stop laughing. What did you want to be when you grew up way back in elementary school, middle school? That's a good question.

That is a good question. I mean, it's not as fun for me. This is from Kate. I have always wanted to be a writer. Yeah. Yeah. Like from first grade. Yeah. You always were going to be a writer. Yeah. I wanted to be a writer. Yeah. Yeah. Like from first grade. Yeah.

You always were going to be a writer. Yeah. I wanted to be a chef. No. Yes. Elementary school. What did I want to be in elementary school? A doctor.

Oh, I did want to be a doctor in elementary school. That was like for five minutes. That was all of sixth grade. Okay. And then for like four years, I wanted to be a chef. Yeah. But you know what we were talking about last night? Yeah. So Norman thought very seriously were talking about last night? Yeah.

So Norman thought very seriously about the Army after high school. You thought about the Air Force. I did. I was in training and went to the recruiter and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Norman took some tests. Yeah. Yeah.

Multiple tests. Okay. So what stopped both of you? Because I think that's interesting that you both were going to do military. You go first, Brandy um a couple of things like i i didn't love the idea of leaving my family i knew it wasn't really what i wanted to do it was just an option yeah and then um i actually ended up like getting a pin put in my foot so you can't go anymore once you they won't take you if you have why'd you get a pin in your foot i have a bone that they like put back into

alignment and so there's i have a titanium pin in my foot? I have a bone that they like put back into alignment. And so there's, I have a titanium pin in my foot. And yeah, if you have anything with your feet, they won't take you. Damn. Yeah. But I had already decided by that point that I wasn't going to do it. But yeah. All right. I, one, it upset my mother greatly.

And two, I got. Because you're the favorite. Well, 2005, the war in Iraq was like still going on. So... Well, yeah. And you wanted to be military. Right. I wanted to be infantry.

Yeah. Army. I mean, you wanted to be army. Sorry. Yeah. You know, and my dad was pitching the Air Force or like go to college and then go to officer school. But I was like, nope, I want to be guy on the ground with the gun ready to go i watched a

lot of war movies growing up and i idolized those movies and so i mine was like i really was going to do it as a way to pay for college and then i knew that i really didn't want to go to college anyway i just well yeah that makes it easy yeah yeah and so yeah it just was not what i wanted actually your mom was the person who was the most upset about my decision to join the Air Force. Yeah. Yeah. She wanted me to, like, come over and sit down and talk with her about it. Really?

Yes. That's sweet charere. Yes. I do remember her being upset. She was very upset. Yes. I wish I had a charere in my life. Well, and I think it's different when you're a woman.

Like, you know, there's always the fear of sexual assault and just all kinds of stuff. And yeah, it definitely would not have been the right fit for me. It was. Well, Sharae Ray knew that. So did you guys ever talk? No, I don't think we ever talked seriously about it. No. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. But she did voice her concerns. Sharae Ray will do that. Sharae Ray will tell you. You sneezed too loud loud that's right well ultimately my love of history and i got a full ride to college yeah that makes me absolutely not go and they were man they called me all the time while i was in college really yeah well they needed Well, they needed people. And I was like, no, I'm enjoying my courses and I'm studying history. And they're like, well, you can study history in the U.S. Army. We go to, you know, we go to historical sites all the time. And I was like, not buying

that. Yeah. So, yeah. Who knows where Norman would be? Yeah. Yeah. That's a scary thought. Who knows where Norman would be? Yeah. Yeah. That's a scary thought. But before then, I wanted to be a fighter pilot or a policeman. Which is funny because you hate the police now. I do.

I have a fear of the police. You have a fear of the police. I do. I had a bad incident with the police one time that I will not discuss. You don't want to discuss it? Not right now. Did they cavity search you? Almost. Oh, no!

You don't have to talk about it. It was racial profiling, right? It was, yeah. Not to me, a white guy. We'll talk about some other time. Cliffhanger. Yeah, gotta keep the people listening. I think

Peanut's dreaming on that. I know, what is she doing? She's dreaming. So cute. Do we need to do some more questions let's do one more yeah what's an ongoing court case you're keeping track of right now oh the college admission scandal aunt becky i love that she's getting karate lessons right now i know what is she doing why didn't she take a deal what is wrong with her because she's rich she thinks she can buy her way out of everything so she can buy her way into college and buy her way out of this situation and who could blame her yeah yeah you get that much money you probably who knows what she's bought her way into and out of in the past yeah that's true yeah

i i am following that big time mine is a local case that i have been following for a million years now okay because the first crime in it happened in 2006 2007 it's the murder of two girls finally like gosh it's been forever ago now finally like two years ago someone was arrested and charged them and he is just putting up a fight about going to trial. Yeah. Oh, he's thrown every motion in the book at the court. So he's a dirtbag. He is a huge dirtbag.

It was one of those situations where they couldn't find the bodies for a long time. Right. Yes. And everyone knew it was this one guy. Oh, yeah. Everybody knew from the time the first girl went missing that was this guy there was no mystery as to who did it yeah but they had no bodies they had some and so someone it was kind of close to my parents yeah i think like a hunter

someone was mushroom mushroom hunting yeah guy was mushroom hunting near like a rock quarry and came across the remains yeah yeah and so now they're finally trying to bring this guy to justice they did finally reschedule his trial but it'll just get pushed and pushed again yeah so stay tuned i will cover the shit out of it once it's once it happens he's following harvey weinstein oh god oh i just like i just want to punch him in the dick with him trying to come out and be like oh i'm this frail old man now with my walker yeah he's got his stupid walker and then he's like you know i apologize for cheating on my wife that's not cheating on your wife you're a rapist cheating on your wife yeah just like that bill cosby bullshit shut up oh yeah Following that for sure. I read Harvey Weinstein's stupid statement, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up, Norm. Yeah. Sorry about it.

Thanks for the questions, guys. Those are good. Yeah. And now let's go into Supreme Court induction. Let's. I'm ready. What? Yeah. Who are you? Then why don't you explain what Supreme Court inductions are? Are you wondering how you could get inducted into the Supreme Court? Well, it's easy. As easy as signing up on Patreon at the Supreme Court level. That's $7 a month. You get inducted into the Supreme Court.

You get a fancy-ass sticker that you can, you know, put wherever you want. Put on your ass. You can put it right on your ass. You get a card with our fancy signatures in it. You get bonus episodes, bonus videos, case updates. You get to vote on topics. That's right. There's currently one to vote on right now.

There's so much stuff I couldn't even possibly tell you. I think I've told you it all. This week we're sticking to our theme with favorite drinks. Excellent. For this week's inductions, please, whatever seat you're sitting in, please pick it up and turn it to face the opposite direction and then sit back down. A.C. Slater style. I like it.

That's right. Denise Martin. Lots of tequila. Ella Alvarez. Coffee, specifically a strong latte. Faith Hooker. Creamer with a little bit of coffee. Abby Villanueva.

Iced guava lemonade, even though Mr. Starbucks is a coward and removed it from the menu because it's seasonal. Guava is valid 365, people! That sounds delicious. It does sound good. DDP all day, White Claw claw grapefruit all night alex miller sprite angie cane jameson irish whiskey caitlin spezia frozen cokes jamie sholeen sholeen that's literally how she told us to pronounce her name. The white can of Monster Energy drink.

Not sure of the flavor, but it's the only good one. Janelle Owens. Non-alcoholic ginger ale. Alcoholic champagne. Amanda McGinty. Iced coffee. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Hey, Kristen, since we reversed roles this week, why don't you tell people what they should do?

You know what I regret more than anything? Ever making fun of me? Yes, because you're so self-conscious now that now you can't thank people anymore. Brandy, everyone knows it's sincere. Thank you guys for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Reddit. Probably not YouTube anymore. Okay, we're on. Should we talk about that? If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Reddit. Probably not YouTube anymore.

Okay. Should we talk about that? If you want. You guys, we're trying to get our listens up in the hopes that we will one day get sponsors. We've got a hope and a dream for it. That's right. We put up a real big dream catcher. So part of that is that we do have our episodes uploaded on YouTube.

We've decided we're going to take them down because we're afraid that that's actually pulling away from our listens. So we're trying to filter everybody to some sort of podcast listening app. It doesn't matter which one you listen through. Just through one of those. We wondered why we were the only podcast doing that. Turns out there's a reason. You know, we don't claim to be experts at podcasting. So please find us on social media. Wherever you listen to us, please subscribe and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating, leave us a review,

and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the Pledge episode of The Shadows of Death, the Hazing Death at Chico State episode of Dateline, and articles from the Pledge episode of The Shadows of Death, the Hazing Death at Chico State episode of Dateline, and articles from the LA Times, NPR, and the San Francisco Chronicle.

I got my info from an article by Kim Jansen for the Chicago Sun-Times, an article by Emily Thompson for Morbidology, NBC News, and the New York Daily News. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.