Let's Go To Court! - 109: An Interview With The Dog Lady of Lansing Prison

Episode Date: February 19, 2020

Get ready for a wild ride. This week, we sat down with Toby Dorr, who made international headlines in 2006 when she helped an inmate escape from Lansing Federal Prison.  Back then, her name was Toby Young, and she had what seemed like a normal life. She was married. She had two kids. She had a demanding corporate job. But the truth was that Toby felt isolated and unhappy. Following a layoff and a battle with cancer, Toby wanted to live a more meaningful life. So she created the Safe Harbor Prison Dog program, where she brought dogs in to be trained by inmates at the Lansing Correctional Facility.  But while she was there, she fell in love with an inmate named John Manard. John was serving a life sentence for felony murder, due to his role in a fatal carjacking. Despite their differences, Toby felt a bond with John that she didn’t feel in her marriage. So on February 12, 2006, she helped John escape prison in a dog crate. Toby and John were on the run for 12 days before they were caught, thanks to a high speed chase.  Toby was sentenced to 27 months in prison for her role in the escape. In the years since then, Toby has worked on herself. She doesn’t let the escape define her. She doesn’t downplay what she did, or shift the blame toward John. Instead, she tells her story in the hope that it will help other women.  Let us be the first to tell you… if you’ve read a few headlines and thought, “how the hell could anyone do that?!?” Give this episode a listen. Toby’s story is worth hearing.  If you’d like to learn more about Toby Dorr, check out her website at tobydorr.com. Be on the lookout for her forthcoming memoir, Unleashed. 

Guys, we have something totally different today. It's super exciting, and I think you guys are going to like it. We were really nervous to do this because this is something we haven't done before. In this episode, we interviewed a woman named Toby Doerr. She came to my house. She sat down and talked to us. And I want to give you a brief summary of her story before we get started because I want you to know what a wild ride you're about to be on.

It is truly fascinating. Yeah. Several years ago, Toby founded the Safe Harbor Prison Dog Program, where she brought in dogs who were about to be put down in to be trained and loved by inmates at the Lansing Correctional Facility. But while she was there, she fell in love with an inmate. She made international headlines when she helped him escape in a dog crate. Toby and John Maynard were on the run for 12 days before they were caught, thanks to a high-speed chase. Her story is absolutely incredible. And to anyone who hears that and thinks, how could anyone do that? That seems crazy. I really think once you hear her,

you're going gonna kind of get it or you're gonna at least understand it a little more. I absolutely think so. Because I went into it kind of thinking like that. And let me just tell you that she was amazing to interview. She was so open about her story. And it gives you such a view to how she got where she got and how she did what she did. And just give it a listen. I think you guys are going to love it. Yeah. Enjoy. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this week's episode, we're doing something totally different. Yes. Who's excited? Everyone. But we have in my house right now, a friend of mine, Toby Doerr. Toby, do you want to

say hi? Hi. You might know me better as the dog lady of Lansing prison. Welcome, Toby. We're so excited to have you. I'm excited to be here, too. You guys, if you don't know Toby's story, it is absolutely fascinating. It's a wild ride. I suggest you buckle up. So, Toby, we're so excited to have you here. And this will be unlike any interview ever. By the way, she's been interviewed by Anderson Cooper. Yes. Which is basically the same as us. Well, the glasses aren't the same.

I'm not quite as good looking as Anderson Cooper. We are very close. So this will just be, I mean, it'll be like our regular stuff. It'll be casual. We want to hear your story and we'll interrupt you with questions. And I'm sure tangents. If we didn't do tangents, people would die of shock. Yes, there would be riots in the streets. So Toby, tell us about yourself. My name's Toby. I was born and lived in Kansas City, been here my whole life, except for a few months that I was gone. Currently, I live in Liberty,

Missouri. And I know Kristen because we were in a writing group together. that I was gone. Currently, I live in Liberty, Missouri. And I know Kristen because we were in a writing group together. So I was thinking about this the other day, I was in the writing group because I was writing a novel. You were in it because you were writing a memoir. Yes. And I remember for the writing group, our deal was like you send in a chapter, we all read it, and then we get together and discuss. And I remember being like, oh, okay, so this lady's writing a memoir. All right. I opened up your first chapter and it was about a high speed car chase where helicopters were overhead and police were chasing you. And I was like, this lady's full of crap. I kept being like, okay, this lady's obviously writing a novel and she doesn't

know what a memoir is. But then I Googled you and I realized that no, in fact, you've been involved in exactly that. Yes. So do you want to tell a little bit about the dog program? Okay. So actually, just to follow up on that, in 2006, at the end of the year, the API puts out a poll of their most talked about subjects for the year. And I was number six. Wow. I was above George Bush, who was president at the time. Whoa. 2006. So there you would find a lot of hits out there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I did. I did. So in 2004, this will be a short story, a summarize, but I was diagnosed with cancer. And it made me realize that I hadn't really done anything in my life to make a difference. And so I was just wasting space here on this planet. So that was a wake up call for me. And I decided I

needed to do something that mattered. So I decided to start a dog rescue program. I've always been really involved with rescue groups and fostering dogs and things like that. And a week after I started the rescue group, someone from the prison came and talked to me and asked if I'd be interested in starting a prison dog program at Lansing Correctional Facility, because their inmates really wanted one in there and they wanted to get something in there before, you know, they got control. So I said, of course, I'll start a prison dog program. I had no idea what went into a prison dog program, but how could you? Yeah, that was a Monday. And on Wednesday, I went and gave a presentation to the warden and his

staff. And on Friday, they said, bring in some dogs. Oh, my gosh. So I was running around town trying to find some stray dogs that I could take into the prison. Or, you know, if somebody just left it in their backyard. Yeah, just hop the fence. So anyway, the prison dog program just took off. And in 18 months that I ran the program, I saved a thousand dogs. Wow. So all the dogs I took were in shelters that were going to be put to sleep. I didn't take just the cute little dogs that everybody want. I took the ones that nobody else wanted. Yeah. And took them into the prison. And this strange thing happened, but people from all over the Midwest, I mean, I have people drive from Chicago and Indiana to adopt dogs from us because they wanted to be part of something that was making a difference, too.

Absolutely. So the program was just awesome. Would inmates train the dogs? Like, how did that part work? So the dogs actually lived with the inmates. And some prison dog programs, they have like a separate kennel building where the dogs live. programs, they have like a separate kennel building where the dogs live. I didn't want to do that because we were adopting these dogs into homes, you know, to live as part of a family. Yeah. So I wanted the dogs to live with the men as a family dog. And, you know, it is part of human

nature. We're social creatures. I was gonna say that is helpful both to the inmate and to the dog. Yes, absolutely. Because can you imagine going 10 years without ever hugging anyone? No. No. And that happens in prison all the time because you don't touch other inmates. And in a lot of cases, you can't really, people don't have visits. Right. Or contact visits. Yes.

Absolutely. So these dogs changed the atmosphere of the prison almost overnight. Oh, yeah. Because they were living in the housing units with these dog handlers, which meant that anyone out in the yard could walk up and pet a dog if they wanted to. So the dogs really belonged to the whole prison. Yeah. And it made a huge difference.

Oh, yeah. And it was an awesome thing. But at that particular time in my life, I was facing some personal crisis. My dad was dying of cancer and I was having a really hard time dealing with that. I was an empty nester. And I realized that everything my husband and I had in common was related to our children. And now that they were gone. What do you have now?

I didn't even know who I was married to, really. And now that they were gone, what do you have now? I didn't even know who I was married to, really. And so I was struggling with that. I had been laid off from my corporate job at Sprint. So that was a big adjustment. And I just was kind of floundering. But I found that when I was inside that prison, it was the most beautiful place in the world to be in there with those dogs and those men, because the dogs loved me. Oh, yeah. The inmates loved me. Absolutely. And, you know, almost to the point of worshiping me, you know, it was just like such an incredible high to be. I was gonna say it'd be a very gratifying experience. Absolutely. It was. So I found myself making more and more excuses and reasons why I needed to go into the prison.

Of course. Let's do another dog training. Because it was in there that I didn't feel so neglected and so ignored and so insignificant. You know, it was inside the prison where I felt like I had something worth living for. So, you know, and things started to change a little bit. And one of my dog handlers started escorting me around the prison because I'd had an altercation with an inmate. And in order to be safe, I always had myself be with another inmate dog handler that would protect me. Right, right, right.

And so we became really close and I started falling in love with him. And he asked me one day, if he wasn't in prison, would I be with him? And I said, I might. And then he was off and running with ideas for how he was going to get out of prison. And a few weeks later, when he started sharing his ideas with me, I'd say, that will never work. That's a dumb idea. Oh, that one won't work because of this.

And then he said, well, I could just get in your van when you come in to do a dog adoption and just ride out of the prison with you. And I said, well, that would probably work. Right. Yeah. And it did. And it did. Yeah.

So it was pretty crazy time. Yeah. One question I'd like to jump in with. Could you talk about him and who he was? Well, I was going to say, I even have his record pulled up. I didn't know if you, I think our listeners will find it very interesting. If you're okay with it. Sure.

So why don't you talk about him and then I can talk about what got him into prison. Yeah. Okay. So John Maynard was about six foot four and I'm five foot two. So, you know, that was super cool. This big tall guy. Well, and I'm sure because the reason you guys became so interactive, he was protecting you.

So he was your you. Yes. So he was your protector. That's right. He was. Yes. He was. And everybody knew that nobody in the prison would mess with John Maynard. He kind of was, you know, at the top of the hierarchy there.

Yeah. And that was kind of comforting and kind of inspiring, I guess, to know that you were walking around with the person who was at the top of the food chain. And, you know, John Maynard was smart. A lot of the inmates, when I would talk to them, you know, you could tell that they hadn't had much education or that they just weren't that intelligent. But John Maynard was really sharp. And so I found myself having these really in-depth conversations with him. And it was important to me to be able to talk to someone. And, you know, my husband and I, we had a relationship where we didn't really talk about anything. He was very quiet. And I realized that I just love discussing things with someone

who could discuss them with me intelligently. And so we spent quite a lot of time together and talked about so many different things. And one time I came to the prison and it was after my dad had had emergency surgery for his cancer. And it was a really stressful night. And when I went into the prison, John Maynard said to me, Toby, what's wrong with you? And I said, Oh, well, I just came from the hospital. My dad was in surgery all night, emergency surgery. And they had to give him a colostomy bag. And, you know, and I said, and he's going to die. I mean, I just realized there's no way around it that, you know, he's going to die from this cancer.

And I remember feeling so touched that someone noticed I was hurting. Absolutely. Because nobody else even noticed, you know, and the night before when we got the call that my dad was being rushed into emergency surgery, my husband said, well, you go on up to the hospital. And I'm just going to stay here and go back to sleep because there's no sense in both of us not getting sleep. Uh huh. Which is just a completely opposite response. Yes. Yes. And until I talked to John Maynard the next day, and he said, well, it's a good thing your husband was there with you. And I said, Oh, he wasn't there. You

know, he stayed home because there was no sense of both of us not getting any sleep. And he said, that's the stupidest thing I ever heard of. And then I thought, Oh, that is kind of stupid. You know, and once the light goes on in your head you can't turn it back off I mean even when I had my own cancer surgery and I woke up from surgery and I was in the hospital room and it was like 8 30 at night and my husband said well I'm gonna go home now because you know I know you aren't gonna get any sleep tonight but there's no sense in me not getting any sleep either so I'll see you in the morning and that was just kind of the norm for my life. So I didn't think anything of it. But that's exactly it. You get so used to, yeah, what is the norm that until, until you see

something different, you're like, I didn't even realize what I was getting up with. It was so personal to my life. I'm smiling at Brandy. We don't have to say anything more about it. Yeah. Brandy gets what you're saying. So, you know, once this light goes on in your head, you just can't turn it off. And so I can't ever know that that wasn't a normal procedure, normal way to act. And so it just kind of hangs around in there and starts eating away at you. And so it just kind of hangs around in there and starts eating away at you. So, yeah, it was kind of an eye-opening moment. Why do you think John kind of maybe ran the prison is the wrong way to put it,

but why do you think he was so far up? His status was so elevated. Well, I think he could take care of himself. I think when he was a kid, he did karate classes and things like that. But, you know, John just didn't take anything from anybody. He didn't play any games. Yeah, I was gonna say like, just his size alone would probably make him intimidating. And there are some people who just have an intimidation factor about them. Well, and you know, John was really skinny. So it wasn't like he was a big guy, but he was tall. But when he looked at you, you knew he wasn't playing any games. So I think he probably had to earn that respect in

the prison. Did you know what John was in prison for? I did. You did? I did. So John was in prison for felony murder, which he and a buddy of his were out one night, they needed a ride somewhere. So they decided they were going to steal a car. And they went to this car that was in a parking lot. And John opened the driver's door and started to get in the car. And his buddy went around to the other side of the car and opened the passenger door and was going to get in. And there was a man sleeping in that seat. And I don't know if the guy was startled when the door opened and he said something or if he pushed out or if he maybe he didn't do anything. But John Maynard's buddy had a gun with him and he shot the guy. Yeah. And he died. And he pulled him out of

the car and they left him in the parking lot and he was dead. So felony murder is a law that really, I think, originated like in the 12th century England. And it means that if someone dies during the commission of a felony, everyone involved with the felony is guilty of murder. So even though he didn't pull the trigger, he was in for murder. Well, in fact, they were tried together. They didn't even get separate trials, even though one was physically involved in the commission of the murder and one was not. They were tried as one person, essentially. And John Maynard was 17 at the time and he was

arrogant like a 17 year old and he believed that he didn't have a gun he didn't shoot anybody there was no way they were going to find him guilty of murder right so he wouldn't talk to his attorney and try to defend himself or anything because he knew he didn't need it and he wasn't going to rat on somebody right exactly and that isn't how it turned out at all. Yeah. And so at 17 years of age, he got sentenced to life in prison for felony murder. How old was he when you met him? He was 28. 28. Okay. I guess I'm curious. And part of it is because I know the story, but there's a weird part of me that is so fascinated by how you guys actually got him out of prison. Yeah, that was kind of a crazy story.

Well, because if you know how you got him out of prison, just the fact that he is 6'4". Yes. Yes. Is a huge factor. It is a huge factor. And it just so happened that I had a wire dog crate in the prison. Now, it was a big wire dog crate because I'd had a pregnant dog in there. It was probably at least as big as the top of this desk.

Okay. Which is about what? Oh, three feet by four feet. Yeah, three by four feet. Yeah. It might have been a little smaller than this, but, you know, it was a pretty good size wire crate. And having a wire dog crate inside of a prison is really not a good idea because, you know, a plastic dog crate, that's one thing, but this wire dog crate and the unit team for the

housing unit asked me to get that crate out of the prison because they thought it was a risk that someone could take it apart and use it for a shanks. So that just played right into John's hands. So John was there when they asked. And John said, yeah. He said, you know what? How about if I bring that dog crate down when she does a dog adoption so she can just put it right in her van instead of having to carry it out through the prison? Because, you know, it's big. It's hard to carry. And the unit team said that would be fine.

So then John came up with this idea that he was going to hide in this dog crate. And of course, you couldn't just be in the dog crate because people would see you. So they had these things called packout boxes. And when you move from one place in the prison to another, you were allowed a packout box and you had to fit all your belongings in this packout box. I don't know the dimensions of it. I wish I did, but I think it was something like 18 by 36 inches. So John told me I'm going to fit in one of those boxes and we're going to put inside the crate. I said, there's no way you're going to fit in one of those boxes. And so he showed me a box one day and it like came to his knees. It was not that big. And he was going to tell me how he got in there. But he never

did. And I don't know. But he said he lost 25 pounds, he was already pretty lanky. And he put one of his feet up around his head, and one foot behind one leg behind him somehow and got in that box. I can't imagine how he fit in there. Yeah, but it was quite a feat. So if he lost 25 pounds, I mean, the planning for this must have been it was it was about three weeks uh-huh oh wow it was a really a short period of time i was gonna say that's a lot shorter for how much of a an event however if you're motivated to get out of prison yeah i eat nothing in three years i'm thinking about how long it would take me to lose 25 pounds. If this is your escape plan. That's right.

You can pretty much do anything. You'd give up carbs real quick. So when I pulled up to the prison that day, I knew that he was supposed to be in that dog crate. And they were going to put the dog crate on this farm wagon I had in there. Because I had 50 pound bags of dog food we'd wheel around. So I left a farm wagon there. So the dog crate was going to be on the farm wagon because if somebody lifted it and carried it, they would have known something was going on. So I pulled in, I was supposed to be there at 1030 so that we missed a count. So they finished a count at 10 o'clock and they didn't do another one till three o'clock or three 30 that afternoon, which gave us a lot of time to be gone.

And I pulled in at 1030 and it was a freezing cold morning, which played right into the plan because nobody wanted to be outside. No, exactly. And it was a gray day. So when you looked out at the horizon, you couldn't tell where the ground ended and the sky began. It was all just a gray white color and it was spitting snow and nobody wanted to be outside. So I got there and the dog handlers were lined up for

the adoption. So when you drive into the prison, I drive through gate one and it opens and then I'm in between gate one and two. And that's a huge parking lot where diesel trucks can turn around to bring, you know, supplies and things in. And so I drive across the parking lot and I get to gate two and they open gate two. Now gate two and gate three are really close together, about the length of this room in between them and about this wide. So you drive through gate two and you're in this area and you have about three or four feet in front of your front bumper and three or four feet behind your back bumper is gate three. And I parked in there and they shut gate two. You can only have one gate open at a time. So you can't open gate three till gate two's closed. And so I

was parked in between those two gates and I knew John was supposed to be there at 1030, but he wasn't there. And so my dog handlers were lined up behind gate three and they were freezing cold and they were stomping their feet and they were like, come on, Toby, open the gate, open the gate. We need to get back to our cell. It's cold out here. And I just kept waiting because I needed that dog crate to be there when I was loading dogs, because if it came later, then the confusion of loading the dogs, you know, wasn't there to kind of camouflage what was happening. Yeah. And so then I look up and that dog crates coming around the corner or that farm wagon with the dog crate on it. And I gasp. I mean, I went, oh, because when I looked up, those wheels were flat on that dog crate.

I'm in the farm wagon. Yeah. it was clear that there was weight in there. And I thought, oh my gosh, they're going to see this. And nobody did. So then I told them to open the gate and I opened the back of the van and the handlers were all putting their dogs in the back of the van and I'd open the side door and the inmates who brought the dog crate down just took the wagon to the side door and slid that dog crate right off the wagon right into the van and we shut the door maybe you can't answer this but were they in on it too well i don't know okay

because i wasn't involved in that side of john told me they weren't but but yeah how could you not yeah how could you not notice the weight that that carries yeah okay do you remember like how you felt that day? Like, was your heart pounding? Were you like, there's no way we're going to get away with this? Yes. I thought, and you know, there was a big part of me that was hoping that he just wouldn't come. And I would just take the dogs and go do a dog adoption. Because up until that moment, I just kind of felt like this was a fantasy game we were playing. Like this wasn't really going to happen because people just don't escape from prison. But it happened, you know?

And so I got in the car, I loaded the dogs up and I shut the doors and I got in the car and I started to pull the van out. And I said, John, are you in here? And he didn't answer. And I thought, oh, thank God. Yeah. You know, this didn't work. I'm just going to go do a dog adoption. Yes. And so I drove through gate two and I drove through gate one and I drove up the gravel road and around the side of the prison.

And when I got on the city street, an arm burst out of the box and John started laughing. And I thought, oh, holy crap. I'm picturing that scene in Ace Ventura when he's hiding in the box inside the storage room. And the kid just, like, collapses. Well, because he's such a big guy. I mean, it had to be kind of ridiculous looking. Yes. And he told me later that he was hyperventilating the whole time because he couldn't breathe in there. He was so twisted up in there that he couldn't really breathe. And not to mention the panic that he

would have to be in, like thinking, oh, am I pulling this off? Am I getting caught? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then he, you know, he busted out of the box and I pulled the van over and I said, oh my God, oh my God. And he said, drive, Toby, drive. You've got to keep driving. So, you know, here's a really funny story. This was later after I got caught and I was in the Leavenworth County Jail. So when you're in the Leavenworth County Jail or any jail and someone comes in that's new, all these women, you know, they run up and go, what are you here for? What'd you do? You know, because in prison they don't do that, by the way. Right. But in jail, there's a different decorum in prison than there is in jail. And anyway, these ladies ran up and asked this new girl,

what do you, what do you hear? What did you, what do you picked up for? What do you, why are you here? And she said, well, I'm here because of that woman who broke that guy out of prison. And everybody started laughing because they knew that was me. They looked over at me and they said to her, you know, that's her, right? So it turns out she and her boyfriend lived in the trailer park right behind the prison. And her boyfriend had a warrant out. And they didn't know there'd been a prison escape. And they were driving down the road in front of the prison and they saw the roadblocks and so they stopped their car and he got out of

the driver's seat and got in the trunk and she closed the trunk and got in the driver's seat and drove off because they didn't want him to get caught with his warrant well it's a roadblock and they're looking for an escaped prisoner yeah somebody noticed yeah so they followed them home to the trailer park and they waited till they got inside and then they busted down the door and came in because they were just sure it was john and i oh my gosh and they had drugs in their trailer so all your fault i thought that was the funniest thing ever. That is funny. Those officers had to be so disappointed, though.

When it wasn't you, yes. I'm sure. I'm sure. It was just such a crazy story. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, yeah. You couldn't write that in a novel and people would be leaving. No kidding.

People would be like, that would never happen. So that was pretty crazy. So then we took the van, I bought a truck. And my logic was, you know, if this doesn't work, I'll just give the truck to my son. He wants a new truck. I mean, it wasn't a new truck, but you know, it was an old truck. So we had the truck parked in the storage unit and we got in the truck and John got out of the van and got in the truck and pulled the truck out and I backed the van in and we left. Well, and I dropped the dogs off at my house. I put them in the barn because I didn't want something to happen. Of course. Of course. Yeah. This is me being like too obsessed with

Dateline and all the true crime stuff. But did you pay cash for the truck? I did. All right. Good job. But here was the thing I didn't do right. Okay. I thought, you know, you can't drive a vehicle without a legal license. Yeah. Because we'll get pulled over. Right. So I had him send the title to the truck, to the cabin we were staying at in Tennessee. Oh. Okay.

But I used a fake name. Right. But they figured it out. Yes. And found it anyway. So that's how we got caught. Yeah. It was because I was so determined to do the legal thing and have a real title.

Yeah. Well, I think that's kind of, I think like the almost amusing thing is like before this, you've never committed a crime before. You've never gotten a speeding ticket. I've never even been pulled over. Yeah. That's just it. That's what happens when a non-criminal tries to pull off a crime.

Yes, that's right. You're like, I'm going to follow the law. That's right. Don't want to break any rules. Don't want to break any more laws. Well, it took them two weeks to figure out that that was me, but you know, they figured it out. It gave them a trail. What did you do with the van? Because obviously- I just left it in the storage unit.

Okay. What did you do with the van? Because obviously, I just left it in the storage unit. OK, we just left in the storage unit. And then like two days later, the storage unit guy called the FBI and said, I think I know where that van is. Yeah, because I think she rented a space from me. And so they came and investigated and found the van. And because by that point, your picture was everywhere. Yeah. And so, you know, John told me, Toby, they're not going to think you were involved.

They're just going to think that I took you, you know, and I took advantage of you and off we go. He said, nobody's ever going to hold you responsible. Nobody's going to believe you were involved. And so on Wednesday, which was... Did you believe that? I believed it, yeah. I think I would absolutely believe that.

I mean, I didn't know anything about prison or laws or crimes, but he did. So I believed him. Yeah. And on Wednesday, we were driving through a McDonald's for lunch because we didn't go in because we didn't want to be seen. Right. We drove through McDonald's and I had my laptop with me and I flipped open the laptop and my homepage was kansascity.com. And the headline was dog lady implicated in escape. And I just, I had a panic attack and I said, look at this, look at this. They know I was involved.

You promised me they wouldn't know. They know, look at this. I'm going to get in trouble. And he slammed that computer down and said, you are not supposed to look at the internet or the news, you know, and give me that computer. And so. Did either of you alter your appearance in any way? Because he has red hair. He has red hair. He wore a wig.

So here's the thing. We had wigs and I had bought him a wig, a man's haircut wig that was kind of graying, you know, just a man's haircut. And he's like, I'm not wearing that wig. I'm not an old man. I said, what? Josh, you don't want to. He's putting his foot down.

Yes. Yes. And so we had to go to another wig store. And he went in and bought a wig. And he bought this long wig that comes past his elbows. This long, straight hair. And I said, John, nobody wears hair like that anymore. Yeah.

You know, that's how he wore his hair before he got arrested. Oh. I said, people are just going to be looking at you because you stick out. That's not how you wear hair. But he insisted I'm wearing that long hair wig. What color was it? Blonde. Okay.

Yeah, that's a bad choice. So what about you? Did you dye your hair? Did you cut it? What did you do? Ionde. Okay. Yeah, that's a bad choice. So what about you? Did you dye your hair? Did you cut it? What did you do? I wore a wig too. So it was about past my shoulders, a dark brunette wig. Okay.

Yeah. Kristen teases me. Oh, this is a good thing to bring up. Yes, I have. We covered a case where someone, you know, like dyed their hair black or something like that. And like, I was like, I don't think I do that. Because when you're done, that's really hard to undo. I'm a hairstylist.

So I'm like, I know what we have to go through to undo that. It's like, really? You're a fugitive and you're not going to dye your hair? I'm like, I can't do it. It's a wig. That's the way. So in this scenario, you're John Maynard. I'm Toby.

I'm the one who's like, let's just blend in. Yeah. That wig looks so stupid. Yeah.. Yeah, that wig looks so stupid. Yeah. I mean, it just looks so stupid. So you already had a place in mind that you were going to? Okay. Yeah.

How did you choose it? John picked it. Okay. He'd gotten hold of some magazine and he picked it. And of course, I had smuggled a cell phone into the prison for him. And he called and made a reservation. And then he told me where it was. And I sent him a money order. Yeah. Were you excited? I mean, I think the other thing that we haven't really touched on is like, you were in love. I was,

I was madly in love with him. I mean, I would have done anything for him. And I did. Yeah, I did. So yeah, I was excited to be able to spend time with him. Yeah. You know, like real people and not be inside of a prison and being watched. Yeah. The other thing that I think if you Google this case, if you read about it, something that I think that gets said a lot is that he manipulated you and he whatever. But from his point of view, what I have read is that he did not.

He felt that he was in love with you. Yes. Yes. I believe he was. He really felt that he was in love with you too. Yes, I believe he was. And there have been people who've tried to get me to admit that, nah, he was just using you. Well, here's the thing. I was capable of making a decision and I did make a decision. I chose to go. I could have not chosen to go. And so it's really important to me. And one of the things that I talk about in this program that I've created for women in prison

is that you cannot be a victim, right? You have to own your actions. And I knew subconsciously without ever really thinking through that if I ever once said I was manipulated, that I would be stuck in that hole forever. Yeah. And I would just be a victim and I was not going to be a victim. Yeah. So how long were you guys on the run? And what did you do when you were on the run? Well, we were on the run for 12 days. So when we first planned this, John said, we're just going to hide out in the cabin, you know, have a low profile.

So I bought groceries and things that we took with us. And I thought we were going to just hang out in the cabin. Yeah. Well, the second day he said, let's get in the car. Let's go somewhere. I want to go to a movie. I want to go shopping. You know, he's been in prison.

Yeah. So he wanted to go out and experience things. So every day we would go somewhere different. We went to Nashville. We went to a music store. John is a big bass player. He loves, he's really into music. And in the prison, they had instruments that you

could check out and play in the music room. And he was really big into music. And there was some music store in downtown Nashville that everybody knows about. I don't know what it is, Gruins or, I don't know. Anyway, it was the place to go if you're a musician. He wanted to go there and go in there and play some of their guitars, you know, take them off the wall and play them. So we did that for a day. And he just like, I can't believe I touched this guitar. You know how much that guitars work, you know? Right, right, right. So it was things like that. And then one day, we went to an IMAX movie because before he went to prison, they didn't have IMAX movies. And he'd seen a National Geographic documentary on IMAX movies and the

making of an IMAX movie. And he thought that was so fascinating. So he wanted to go see an IMAX movie. So we would do things like that. Wow. Well, he wanted to see the shark movie. And when we got there... Sharknado? No, no, no. It's like a documentary. And we went, we were in a different time zone. We crossed the timeline I mean just barely so when we got there was already over so we saw some lion movie Serengeti oh yeah yeah so I'm wondering about the evolution of the news coverage because if I'm remembering correctly it seemed like initially they did think that maybe you had been taken on this but it didn't take them too long to figure out no I think it was within 24 hours that they figured out I was involved. I don't think it

took them too long, but they did initially think I'd been kidnapped. You were still married at this time when this happened, right? Okay. But in a difficult marriage. Yeah. Well, you know, the funny thing is 10 years before the escape, I had told my husband, you know, I wasn't happy. I wanted to get a divorce. And he said, you can't get a divorce. He said, I work. I don't hit you.

You know, no judge is going to let you get a divorce. And he said, and most of all, your family won't let you divorce me. And I thought, well, he's right. Yeah. And I won't stand up to him. So the only sane thought I had during the escape was, well, they're going to let me get divorced now. What a takeaway.

And they did. Nobody tried to stop me. That just very much shows like the state of what your relationship was in and why it was probably so easy for you to find comfort with John and find a relationship there. Yeah, to feel listened to and heard and seen. Yeah. And supported in this thing that, you know, I felt so passionate about this prison dog program. I felt called to help the dogs and to help the inmates and do something that made a difference. And John, I mean, even though he was an inmate and was on the receiving end of it, he still believed in my program and my purpose. And I didn't really get much support for it at home.

So that was refreshing. Now, this is probably a really difficult question to answer, but do you think had you met John under completely different circumstances, do you think that you guys would have still had enough in common to create some kind of relationship? Or do you think it's because he was so isolated and you were in, if that makes sense? Yeah, that's an interesting question.

And I've never really thought about that. I think it's possible that we could have created something because there was kind of a chemistry there almost immediately. There would have had to have been or you would have never. there almost immediately. Yeah, there would have had to have been or you would have never. But I don't know that I would have spent enough time with him to really develop something. So here's the thing that I usually say. If I had met someone at a gas station while I was pumping gas, and they, you know, started to kind of flirt with me, I'd have just pumped my gas and got in my car and left. Absolutely. But when John was in in the prison and he started kind of flirting a little bit, I thought, well, nothing's going to come of this. He's in prison.

Right. So I'm safe. So there's no harm in, you know, letting this happen. And that's really interesting. He was in prison for life. Like he had a life sentence. So, yeah, that would very much be, I feel like, a reasonable outlook to have. What's he have to gain from this?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you would think there's nowhere that this can go. Yeah. There's nowhere. And what's the harm in it? Yes. What's the harm? That's exactly what I thought. Yeah. And there was harm in it. Yeah. Right. Of course. Yeah. You wouldn't, you couldn't have seen that. Yeah. That's what I thought. This is just harmless because he's in prison and I'm not. I'll just go home at the end of the day. Exactly. You know, I can walk out of prison anytime I want. Yeah, that's what I thought. This is just harmless. Yeah, he's in prison. And I'm not I'll just go home at the end of the day. Exactly. No, I can walk out of prison anytime I want. Yeah, it was kind of an odd thing. Absolutely. And unnatural type of relationship. Did you guys think that you would eventually get caught? Like, we'll go to this place in Tennessee,

we'll have some fun for a while, and then we'll get caught? Or did you guys think that, you know, it'd be I didn't think we'd get caught. But obviously, we all know that I'm a pretty green horned criminal. And I think John thought we wouldn't get caught either. Because here's the deal. When John went to prison, there was no internet. Right. And there's no internet inside the prison. He did not know how hooked together everything is. Everything is. Exactly. So he thought if we just got far enough away and blended in, they would never find us.

With that long blonde hair. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So was there a long-term plan? Like we're going to this cabin for this amount of time and then? There wasn't really. We were going to go to that cabin for a month.

Okay. And then we were going to go somewhere else. And we hadn't decided yet where we were going to go. So, you know, and there's one thing, you know, John said, well, let's go to Mexico. And I said, Oh, no, I'm not going to Mexico. Because if we do get caught, those jails in Mexico are horrible. So I think there had to be something inside me thinking, you know, something could happen. So that's the only thing we decided. We weren't going to go to Mexico. We weren't going to go to Mexico.

Wow. Was leaving the country, was that like? We hadn't even thought about that. Okay. We didn't have passports. Right. Yeah. So.

Yeah. Of course, John said, you know, I can get us IDs. I can get us whatever we need. I know how stuff works out here on the streets. I can find what we need. Uh-huh. And I just thought, okay. Okay. Yeah. Because you didn't have any ideas. May I ask what your fake name was? Mine was Molly Rose.

Molly. I kind of like that. Yeah. And his was Mark West. I mean, not bad. Strong names. Yeah. I like the names. You know, I thought they were pretty fun. Yeah, we just got to pick our own. And yeah, I can't remember his logic behind his but I just like the way mine sound. Yeah. So okay, so you guys were ultimately caught after 12 days on the Remington. And you were spotted at a Barnes and Noble. Is that right? Okay, it's a Barnes and Noble to buy a book. Uh huh. And little did we know, I mean, this is so fluky. When we walked out of the Barnes & Noble, we walked right in front of the U.S. Marshals sitting in their car who had been to the cabin earlier that day and we weren't there.

Oh my gosh. And they were sitting there trying to figure out their next step. And we walked right in front of them. That is like a movie. Yeah. And we walked right in front of them. That is like a movie! Yeah. And of course, the long blonde hair. Yeah. And so they followed us.

Did you guys buy a book at Barnes & Noble? We did. What did you buy? We bought Where the Red Fern Grows. Okay. Because John said that was my favorite book when I was a kid. And I said, I'd never read it. And he said, I'm going to buy you a copy.

I want you to read it. You're going to love it. Okay. And so. Did you guys get like a latte at the coffee shop or anything? No, but I didn't drink coffee, but John did. He was like, we went in somewhere and I got him a cappuccino, something with caramel. And he's like, what is this?

Yeah, he was obsessed then. I bet so. I'm sure. Yeah. So we walked in front of those marshals and they watched us go to our truck and then they started following us. And when we got on the interstate, they radioed ahead that we were coming and they'd set up this trap onto the interstate.

So this particular interstate going out of Chattanooga, it's kind of mountainous and it's a kind of interstate where the northbound lanes are separated from the southbound lanes by a forest. Okay. You can't see one from the other. They're quite separate. And we're going down the highway. And I noticed this light up ahead of us off to the side of the highway. And it was so bright, it was like daylight. And it was out of place. You know, it was like 1030 at night. And I thought, they must be doing road construction up there. And they've got the highway all lit up for these workers.

Because this just doesn't make sense. And so as we drive further up, and I'm watching as we pass, and I don't see any road construction. And I can't tell where the light's coming from. But I notice that there's a police car across the ramp, not letting any traffic on. And so I turned to John and I said, there must be a big wreck up front of us. You didn't have any inclination. Like it was not, yeah, not even on your radar. And John said, Oh, Toby, this is all for us. And I said, what's for us? And then I looked out, I turned from looking out the side when I looked out in front of us. And there was like 50 or 60 police cars on the interstate in front of us.

Yeah. And I said, and he said, that light's from the helicopter. Oh, my gosh. And then he said to me, he said, well, Toby, you're in this too. So what is it you want to do? Wow. And I said, well, John, if they turn on the sirens and ask you to pull over, you have to pull over because that's the law. And he said, if that's

what you want to do, that's what we'll do. And so he didn't pressure you. No, he didn't. And so we're driving down the highway. We're coming up on these police cars. And just then, and I know he's going to pull over. He's I know he's going to pull over. He's told me he's going to pull over. Just then this police car comes spinning around us really fast and cuts in front of us and slams on their brakes because they wanted us to hit them. And it made John so mad. And he just floored it. And he took off and he said, I'm not stopping.

These MFers are trying to kill us. I'm going to run until we run out of gas. And I looked over at the gas tank and it was three quarters of a tank. And I thought, how long is it going to take us to run out of gas at three quarters of a tank? And that was the last thing I heard. So there's all these sirens around us and John's going in between these cars. And I look out and there's like a semi truck, like an inch from my window. And we're going fast. Yeah. And this weird vortex thing kind of happened, but everything was happening in slow motion. And I couldn't hear a thing. There was no sound at all. And John was talking. I couldn't hear him.

Yeah. I couldn't hear the sirens. I couldn't hear anything. And at one point we got into a place where we were kind of stuck and we couldn't go. And so John swerved off into the median and cut across trees and the hills and the rocks and came out on the other side. And oh, he actually broke through to the other side. Whoa. Yes, yes. And then, you know, the police cars followed us. And then when we got on the other side, there was a semi truck. Evidently, the semi-trucks cooperate in police chases. I never knew this. I didn't know that either.

But they slow down and they try to box you in and stop you from going around. It was pretty ingenious, I thought, that the police had, you know, worked that out with the semi-truck drivers. But anyway, this semi-truck tried to force us off the road. And so we went on to the shoulder and then he kept coming over. So John went into the grass and we're going 100 miles an hour. And he's driving through the grass. And then he gets around the semi-truck. He gets in front of it and he cuts back onto the pavement.

But when the wheels hit the pavement after being on the grass and we're going 100 miles an hour, he lost control of the truck. And we went straight across. I have the dash cam video of it actually i mean we're right in front of that semi truck yeah and we hit a tree head-on at 100 miles an hour oh my god that was the end yeah oh and it's amazing that you both survived i know well we were wearing seat belts because seatbelts because that's the law. That's the law. That's the message here. You should always wear your seatbelts. Yes. Wow. Yeah, it was kind of crazy.

And did you sustain injuries? I was just bruised from head to toe, but that's it. No broken bones. Nothing broken. Either one of us. Oh, my gosh. And I had the wind knocked out of me. Of course.

But this policeman came to the window. I mean, they come running up, and they're in these black outfits with these helmets on and these masks. They were the SWAT guys. And they had little black machine guns that were about this long. And they put it, and the windows are all broken out. And they stick it through the window, and they say, get out of the truck. And the wind's knocked out of me and I'm, I can't talk. Yeah. And my seatbelt's jammed. It won't release. And I'm trying to get it released, you know, and I'm trying to tell him

I'm stuck. I can't get out. And I couldn't say anything. And he's just jamming that gun through the window and screaming at me. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, they're going to shoot me. Yeah. You know, and yeah, they could say you're resisting. Yeah. You know, and. Yeah. They could say you're resisting. Yes. Yes. And they did say later. Yeah. Actually, in one of my sentencings, the marshal said that you miss young resisted arrest.

It's like, no, I did. I mean, look at me. I'm not a resistor. I'm not a resistor. I like that. Yeah. I'm not a resistor. I like that. Yeah, so when I finally got my seatbelt undone, he said to me, I'll get you out of that truck. Well, the door wouldn't open either because my door was completely smashed in. He said, I'll get you out of that truck.

And he reached in through the window and he grabbed me by my hair and the back of my shirt and pulled me out the window and threw me on the ground and stood on my back. And I'm thinking, what is happening? Yeah. You know, and then the funny thing is, then they, you know, my shoe came off and they're dragging me across the ground. I said, I lost my shoe. And he said, what? And I said, my shoe, I need my shoe. Can I get my shoe? And they're like, no, you're not getting your shoe. And then this one guy said, let her get her shoe. So I got my shoe? And they're like, no, you're not getting your shoe. And then this one guy said, let her get her shoe. So I got my shoe back. And then we get to this, we're at the side of the road. And this marshal's asking me all these questions and having me sign all these papers.

And I'm just signing whatever they say. You know, sign here, sign here. I'm signing, signing, you know. And then he said. Because it wouldn't even occur to you that you probably shouldn't do that because that's what a law enforcement official would ask you to do. That's right. Because I just fall in the law. So then he says, OK, you know, get in this car. We're going to take you to jail. And I said, wait a minute.

I said, wasn't I just in a car wreck? Yeah, because, you know, I'm kind of foggy, too. And I'm like, didn't we just have a car wreck? And he said, yeah. And foggy too and i'm like what didn't we just have a car wreck and he said yeah and i said i think i might need don't you go to the hospital after you have a car wreck and he said well one of these papers you signed says you declined medical care and i said oh i i just signed where you told me to sign and so the marshal who let me have my shoe he said okay just put her in the take her to the hospital let's just get her checked out yeah so then the paramedics were right there by the ambulance the paramedics come running

out with this you know board to put you on and they put this neck collar on me and they lace it up i said what are you doing and they said well you might have a broken neck we need to protect your neck and i said do you know that they just pulled me out of the truck by my hair? By my vacuum. I think that ship has sailed. I think if I had a problem, it's already too far gone. So they put me on the stretcher and they put me in the back of the ambulance. One of the SWAT team guys with our little black machine gun jumps in the back of the ambulance. And he said to me, this is going to be the worst ride of your life. Oh, my God. And he said, and if you is going to be the worst ride of your life. Oh, my God. And he

said, and if you so much as move, I will shoot you. And he said, and I won't let them give you medical assistance for 45 seconds. Wow. And the paramedic said to me, oh, my God, whatever you do, don't move. Just don't move. You know, just just lay here. And so we're driving to the hospital. And I remembered I had some things in my pocket. So I put my hand down to reach in my pocket, because I was wondering if my rock was still in my pocket. I had a ladybug rock, you know, yeah. And that SWAT team guy jumps up and jams that gun in my face and says, What's in your pocket? And I said, a rock. And you know, the paramedic said, Let me get it out. Let me get it out. And I didn't even remember that. It was just like I wanted to know if something was still in my pocket.

So we got to the hospital. And the marshals came into the room with me, the exam room. And the doctor said, no, you will leave the room. I'm going to give her an exam just like I'd give any other person. And she's entitled to her privacy. And they said, oh, we can't leave her. He said, You can stand outside the door. Yeah, there's no other way out of this room. But I'm going to give her an exam without you in the room. Yeah, you know, and then when they left, and then he said to me, I'm going to treat you just like I'd treat any

other patient. You know, I don't care what you've done. I don't care how you got here. Yeah, but you're my patient. Yeah. So that's one thing I remembered. Yeah. And the second thing I remembered is that, you know, they did all these tests, and there was nothing wrong with me. So they sent me out with a deputy to take me to this county jail. And we're walking across the parking lot. And this one marshal, the one who let me have my shoe, he and the other marshal were driving past me. And we were walking out the parking lot to get into the sheriff's car. And the marshal's car drove past us and it stopped and it backed all the way up. And then that marshal got out of the car and he walked over to me and he said, Toby, you're facing a lot of things you're going to have to go through, some pretty tough things.

And he said, but don't let this act become who you are. Wow. And I clung to that. Yeah, the whole time I was in prison. And I thought he didn't have to stop and back up and come to tell me that. But he did. And I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah. From the time that you guys were taken into custody, did you ever see John again? Yes. So that's that's a different story but first let me tell you about the time i went to court okay let's go to court so the arrest happened on friday night i got to the jail like after midnight yeah so i didn't know it at the time but my parents had been calling the sheriff's office the whole weekend saying can we talk to our daughter? And they said, no. They said, if we get in our car and drive to Tennessee, can we see her? And they said, no.

So Sunday afternoon, the sergeant at the jail comes and gets me and brings me to his office. And he said, are you comfortable? Can I get you a soda? And I'm like, no, I'm all right. And he said, well, you know, we're getting ready for our call. And I said, what call? And he said, well, at five o'clock, MSNBC is calling to interview you. What? And I said, what? And he said, I've been working on this all day. You know, I've got it set up.

And I said, you know, I've never been arrested before, but I do watch TV and I read a lot of books and I'm pretty sure I shouldn't be doing an interview with anybody without a lawyer. And he said, well, they're going to be mad at me if you aren't here. And I said, well, I'm sorry. And I got up and I just went back to my cell and shut the door behind me. And it's like, that was the craziest thing. So then the next day, Monday, I'm supposed to go to court. Yeah. And they come and get me and this sheriff puts this belt around my chest. And I thought she said it was to protect her because she thought I was too violent, which didn't make sense. And that if I got too close to her, it was going to shock me. And what she really said was, it's so that you don't escape.

And if you get further than 10 feet away from me, it will shock you and it'll knock you to the ground. Well, that made sense. But what I thought. And so we're in the back of the car and I was scooched clear to the far side trying to not get too close to her because I didn't want to get shot. And my mind was just a puddle. I was a mess. So we're driving through the mountains, this little town, and we get to this county seat and we pull into the downtown and there's a courthouse in the middle of town, just like all the other little towns. And the entire streets are shut down. And the whole

place is filled with news trucks. And they had their satellite dishes set up, you know, they're blocking the streets. And I said, Oh, isn't this just my luck to come to town on a day when something big is happening? That's what the officer said. They started laughing. that's what the officer said. They started laughing. They said, this is you. And I said, well, why? I mean, you know, I just didn't get it. So you, do you just had, well, you hadn't looked at the internet. You hadn't been watching TV. So you had no idea how big the story had no idea. I had no idea. And so they said, well, we're going to try to avoid them. And they whipped around to another entrance and they got me out of the car and they were trying to rush me into the courthouse. And then this media, you just looked and the whole media packs running down the street, you know, with their microphones. And one

of them gets to me and he sticks his microphone in my face. He was for Channel 5 here in Kansas City. And he said, was 12 days with John Maynard worth 10 years of your life? And I said, what? Wow. You know, and then they hustled me into the courtroom, but I kept thinking, what is he talking about? 10 years of my life? Yeah. Cause had you talked to an attorney yet or anything? No. Oh, you. Okay. Okay. No. Yeah. So you at this point probably had no idea what charges you were facing. Nothing. Yeah. Was it? No. It was. OK, we'll bleep those names. And he chased me around the entire time I was going to court, you know, and I was like one time I told him if I was going to talk to anybody, it wouldn't be you. No, no. After starting with that question.

Yeah. So I got to court, you know, and they sent me back to Leavenworth. Leavenworth, Kansas. Leavenworth, Kansas. So were you facing state and federal charges? I got my state. I was facing, you know what, I can't even tell you what my charges were, which is a weird thing. You know, my husband today says, how can you not know your charges? Because all I knew was the number of months.

But I think there was four or five state charges I was facing. And I think they charged me with two of them. One of them was bringing the cell phone into the prison. And I don't know what the other one was, but surely it had to be helping him escape. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, because Lansing's a state prison, not a federal prison. That's right. That's right. So I got sentenced to 21 months state time. And it was kind of funny because when I first got there, you know, I got there really late on a Wednesday night. It was like after midnight. And I had to go to court the next morning.

And my brother's best friend was an attorney. So he said he'd take my case. And we went to court and he showed up there you know they say all this stuff that doesn't even make sense they just mumble this stuff up there right and you got to be in the courtroom for it yeah but you don't say anything right or have any kind of response or know what any of it means yeah so I remember him saying you know my attorney said your honor I'd like to ask for a continuance because I just, I haven't had a chance to talk to my client. Right. And he said, okay, we'll give you a two

week continuance. And I just fell apart. And I said, two weeks, you're going to leave me in jail for two weeks. I can't do two weeks. You know, and I did 21 months. Yeah. Two weeks was nothing. But at the time, I was just stunned that I was going to be in there at all. You were unprepared for what was happening. Oh, yeah. Did you take a deal? Did they offer you a deal to please? The state did offer me a deal.

The feds wouldn't give me a deal. Yeah. So I got a 21-month sentence. And the weird thing is there's this whole chart that they go by. And one column means your criminal history and the other row means the severity of your crime. Yeah. And so where I fell, I was in a border box. Right. Which means I should have gotten probation, you know, but the prosecutor said, I can't give her probation because the media will kill me. Right. So we're going to have to do a

prison sentence, you know, and and they agreed to 21 months. Where did you serve your time? Well, it was kind of crazy. So I was in two county jails and then I went to the women's prison in Topeka. I was only there for two months and then they filed the federal charges against me. So they came and picked me up and they took me to the federal holding facility. That's where I spent most of my time. I spent 15 months there. It was a private for-profit prison in leavenworth and i slipped and fell while

i was there and broke my leg oh my gosh and it took them 10 days to x-ray it wow because they didn't want to spend the night uh-huh so and then when i've got my leg x-rayed finally just like the smallest part of our problem with our prison yeah here in the united states it's crazy when I got my leg x-rayed finally. Just like the smallest part of our problem with our prisons here in the United States. It's crazy. When I got my leg x-rayed, the doctor said it was out of place and it needed to be set. But it had been too long. He couldn't set it in the office. He needed to take me to surgery and they said no.

Oh, wow. No surgery. So they just put a cast on it and I wore a cast for eight weeks and it hadn't started healing. And then I wore another cast for eight more weeks. And then just put a cast on it. And I wore a cast for eight weeks, and it hadn't started healing. And then I wore another cast for eight more weeks. And then I wore another cast. And then I wore a boot for six months after that. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, for profit prisons. That just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. I'm wondering what that adjustment period was like, because you had led such a normal life for so long. And then all of a sudden, you're in prison. What was that like? How did you adjust? Well, the funny thing is, for the first three weeks that I was in the jail, the warden there,

oh, he's the administrator, I guess he's not a warden. But he would come and visit me every day. And we would just talk. And he kept me in this medical holding place, because he didn't want to put me in general population, because he thought I would get beat up. And so after three weeks, he came to me and he said, what are you still doing here? And I said, well, I haven't finished court yet. And he said, well, why aren't you bailing out? And I said, well, my attorney says I should just stay here because he says it's crazy out there. There's media all over the place. I didn't even think about that. Oh, my gosh.

You would have been. He said the media won't leave you alone if you go out there. So I said, so I'm just staying here for a while. And he said, well, I need this medical holding room back. You know, I had you in here because I didn't want to put you in general population. But I need to move you there now. And I said, okay, that's fine. I'm ready to go.

I'll pack my stuff. And he said, well, I'm going to put you in SAG. And I said, OK, that's fine. I'm ready to go. Yeah. I'll pack my stuff. And he said, well, I'm going to put you in SAG. And I said, no, you're not. Yeah, no. So and I said, why? I haven't broken any rules. Yeah. I don't need to go to SAG.

And he said, Toby, you can't hold your own in there. And I said, well, I'd like to try. And he said, you're going to have a candy. Yeah. And he said, you're going to have a candy bar and they won't. And you're going to get beat up for it. And I said, well, then I'll just have to learn to share. But I am not going to SAG. And I put my foot down, which was the first time I put my foot down about anything. And I said, I won't go to SAG. I'm not going to SAG. And so he came back and he said, Well, if you sign this paper, it's releasing us from any responsibility if you get beat up. I said, Okay, fine. So I signed the

paper and they moved me in regular population. And when I got there, when I walked through the door, all the women, you know, they were all talking. And I walked in the room and there was just dead silence. And they all looked at me and then they start talking again, you know. And then the officers left and then they said, we wondered when you'd get down here. You know, you're all over the news. We know who you are. And the officer had said to this girl, said, who has an open bunk in their room? And this girl raised her hand and I call her Jessica in my book.

And she said, I have an empty room. So I go to her room. Then it's time for lockdown, which I didn't know what lockdown was until then. And we go to the room. And so she and I in this room, and she's 19 years old. And she outweighs me by a good 200 pounds. And she just starts talking. And she's like, you know, I robbed the Hunan driver.

I ordered Chinese food. And when he came up, I robbed him. I don't know why I robbed him. But, you know, I robbed the Hunan driver. I ordered Chinese food. And when he came up, I robbed him. I don't know why I robbed him, but you know, I don't know what I was thinking, but here I am. And, and I'm on all kinds of psych meds. I hear voices in my head and they tell me to hurt people. But since I got here, they took me off my psych meds and they won't give me anything. She said, I can't make these voices stop. And they tell me to hurt people. She said, but I think I like you. I don't think I'll hurt you do you want to play cards and i said yes i play cards so we played cards till four in the morning and i thought i won't go to sleep until she's asleep yeah you know but anyway she turned out to be cool and i liked her a lot and uh about a month

or so later they still hadn't gotten her the psych drugs. So the crazy thing is when you go to jail, if you're on medication, they take you off of everything. And they have to reevaluate you and decide if they want you to be on the medications. And if they don't, you don't get them. Wow. And there's not a psychiatrist on duty at the jails, just medical doctors. So it's harder to get the psych drugs. Yeah.

Wow. That seems like just a recipe for disaster. And if you don't have any power, you don't get anything. Yeah. And so a month later, she still hadn't gotten her psych meds. She's been in jail for over two months now with no psych meds. And you're not supposed to go off of them cold turkey. No.

And she was on heavy duty psych drugs. Oh my goodness. And so one day they came around for pill call and she hollered down, said, do I have pills on the cart yet? And they said no. And she got so mad and she took her fists and she started hitting the walls of our room and they're concrete walls. Yeah. And she's hitting them with her fists and her fists are bloody and broken open and she's screaming and cussing. And of course, the control room can hear you because they've got the mic open. And so pretty soon they come running in, the SWAT team, you know, and they're in there to take her to the ground and arrest her.

And I said, stop, don't touch her. I said, she's upset. I'll calm her down. You go get ice packs for her hands. Do you see how beat up her hands are? Go get her some ice packs. And they left and went and got ice packs. Oh my gosh. And I thought, wow. So anyway, by the time they came back, I had her calm down and they ice packed her hands. And then the jail administrator came in and said, pack your stuff. I'm moving you to another room. And I thought, yeah, because he doesn't want me to get hurt because I'm a high

profile inmate and he doesn't want to be on the news. So that night they took her to Osawatomie. That's where the mental hospital is. And they got her. She came back six weeks later and I held all her stuff for her while she was gone. And she came back and she had all her drugs. Oh, thank goodness. Yeah. So, you know, some of the craziest stuff happens in there. But, you know, there's a commissary where you can buy items off the commissary to eat.

And the food is so bad. It's just inedible. It's horrible. So the food is so bad. It's just inedible. It's horrible. So the food is so bad. And this one girl had some kind of a maybe she had Crohn's disease. I don't know what she had some kind of disease with her intestines. She couldn't eat bologna. Yeah. And so she got peanut butter and jelly every day. And I wanted peanut butter and jelly because what we got was horrible. What would you serve? Do you mind, like, could you tell us, like, an example of a meal? You get, like, powdered eggs.

And they're made, like, at least four hours before they're served to you. So they're rubbery. So they're not even good when you first make them. No. When they're first made, but then they wait for four hours. And toast. They give you bread in every meal because it fills you up. And then for lunch, we'd get a sandwich, usually a bologna sandwich.

because it fills you up. And then for lunch, we'd get a sandwich, usually a bologna sandwich. And for dinner, you'd get some kind of a meal that we couldn't even recognize. Yeah. Chili or some kind of taco casserole thing. So pasta, lots of pasta, and no fresh vegetables, no fresh fruit. Yeah. And I wanted to get peanut butter. So I asked the jail administrator, what do I have to do to get peanut butter for lunch? He said, well, that's only for vegetarians or people with a medical condition. I said, okay, I'm a vegetarian. He said, you can't be a vegetarian. I said, I can too. And he said, you weren't a vegetarian yesterday. And I said, I am today. Yeah. Starting now. And so he brings out another form for me to sign that i'm gonna be a vegetarian so i get peanut butter yeah and then uh i you know when you look at the commissary they have

ramen noodles that's the only thing you can get to eat and the food is so bad and they serve such small portions of it that you're always hungry oh yeah one of the prisons i was in said that the head of the kitchen said my job is to feed everyone three times a day. My job is not to make sure that they're not hungry. So you were always hungry. And so in the jail, I said, we need to get some healthier items on the commissary. And so I decided, you know, if you ride a kite and you send those in, they're just a piece of paper with a request on them. And the administrator or the warden has to answer every one of them so i told all the women everybody go get a kite and sit down and copy what i write exactly and so we wrote you know we want healthier items we want

peanut butter on the commissary we want you know toothpaste on the commissary we want some healthy items yeah and we sent in the kites all of us us. And the next day we did it again. And the next day we did it again. And the next day we did it again. Until the fifth day, the warden came down to the pod and he said, Miss Young, what do I have to do to get you to stop? And I said, put peanut butter on the commissary. And so we did. So, you know, it was kind of fun, actually. Some parts of it. So I kind of, you know, taught those women that they could be their own advocate. Oh, yeah. If you stand up and you work together for something that you have good chances of making it happen.

Yeah. Did your lawyer ever tell you not to plead guilty? Was that the plan from the beginning? Like, this is just the best? No. You know, my federal attorney said he was thinking about using a battered women i was i was going to say because it seems like there would be such a play to say i was manipulated i was tricked into doing this absolutely and then he said he decided not to he talked to some specialists yeah and everybody So pretty much they wanted me to just

plead guilty and not bother going to trial. Right. So that's what I did. And it was much better that way. Yeah. Did you so you never regretted pleading guilty at all? No, no, no. I mean, I wanted to plead guilty because I wanted to take responsibility. I felt like I needed to take responsibility I wanted to take responsibility. I felt like I needed to take responsibility so that I can move on. Oh, yeah. Because if I didn't take responsibility, if I tried to say it was somebody else's fault, then how could I ever move past? Yeah. You know, I wouldn't have been able to. Yeah. So that's a really strong outlook to have. That's pretty amazing. Yeah, it's pretty important really, for anything to take responsibility for your actions not to blame someone else yeah because every one of us we all have the ability to say no oh yeah

so when you don't say no you're responsible yeah so you know we were talking earlier before we actually turned the mics on but we were talking about how you spent your time in prison. And, you know, I know you did a ton of reading. I did. You wrote poetry. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah. So I realized that while I was in prison, I had a huge blessing of time because my life was so busy and so hectic that I didn't have time for myself at all. But now that I'm in prison, that's all I've

got on my hands is time. So I could take all that time and use it to examine who I was and what got me here and to try to figure out who I wanted to be when I got out and try to figure out what things do I need to learn in order to be that person. So I did a lot of reading and a lot of work on finding books that helped me to be a stronger person and to learn more about myself. And I had journals, I probably have, I don't know, 25 journals that I filled while I was in prison. I started writing poetry, and it just made such a difference in figuring out who I was and what I could do. And it was a blessing that I started doing that while I was in prison, because when I got out of prison, I had a really hard time adjusting. And I was stunned that it was a hard time adjusting

because it wasn't that long of a sentence. Right. And so I thought I'd just come home and everything would be normal. But it was so far from normal. I mean, my family and friends had changed. And so when you go away to prison, you know, everybody else's lives just keep going. And yours kind of stops here. And when you come out, you're at two different places. And they've had experiences that you weren't a part of. And they've gotten used to you not being in their lives. And it's kind of hard to wedge your way back in.

So I found it really difficult to adjust. I'm sure. I have a question that I should have asked like 45 minutes ago. No, the time has passed. The time has passed. We're going to do some brilliant editing. We're going to sneak it back in. Now, I'm wondering, before you helped John escape, did you talk about the plan with any friends?

No. You totally kept it a secret. I didn't talk about it to anybody. Well, you know, the funny thing is, I didn't have any friends. Okay, but you were married. How did you manage to buy the car? And I mean, you took a large sum of money with you, too. Where did all of that come from?

It came from my 401k. Okay. So you were able to do that without him being able to see that you had done that so I cashed in my retirement to escape okay which is a problem now yeah and you know I think it just kind of shows that my husband and I really didn't communicate much because it was no problem doing any of this stuff. Yeah. That's there we go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That says it all that it was no problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like you two were sitting around talking

for hours and hours and you had this big secret you had to hold back. No, no, not at all. So we were like two ships passing in the night, I think more than anything. So, no, not at all. So we were like two ships passing in the night, I think, more than anything. So it wasn't hard at all. You had asked me earlier if that was the last time I saw John Maynard, when they took him away. And for a long time it was. Right. So real quick, John, for his role in all of this, John got an additional 10 years added to his on top of his to his state sentence to a state sentence and then i think he got another 10 years for his federal yeah so they don't put you back in the prison you escaped from do they did they put him somewhere else yeah they put him in supermax okay so he was in supermax for like eight years in kansas yeah which is really it's jail within jail yeah you know You know, you don't go outside

an hour a day. You don't interact with other inmates. It's a pretty hard way to serve time. Yeah. Actually. And he spent eight years there. Yeah. That would be terrible. Oh, yeah. So they have this program in prisons where if a prison doesn't like you, they can trade you to another prison for someone that that prison doesn't like. Oh, God. And so Kansas didn't want anything to do with John Maynard. Yeah. Because he'd embarrassed them.

They traded him to New Hampshire for somebody New Hampshire didn't want. Oh, wow. So he was in prison in New Hampshire for, I don't know, five or six years, something like that. This was after he'd been in Supermax for eight years. like that. This was after he'd been in Supermax for eight years. And a reporter called me one day and said that he had been talking to John Maynard. And would it be okay if he gave John my phone number? Wow. So I talked to my husband, I got married 10 years ago, you got divorced. I got divorced the day before I went to prison, I got divorced. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Okay. So I was divorced. And when I got out of prison, I took a job in Boston for five months. And I met my husband there. Yeah. And we got married in 2009. Uh-huh.

So we've been married for 10 years. And, you know, I've learned what a relationship can be and should be. And it's awesome. You know, we talk about everything. I couldn't even sneak out to buy Chris a birthday present without him knowing. You know, let alone go buy a car and finance an escape. You know, that would never go. So Chris and I talked about it.

And I said, you know, this guy wants to give John Maynard my phone number. And he said, well, talk to him, Toby. He said, I think you should talk to him. He said, he's got nobody. You know, he needs a friend. So tell him to call you. So John did. He called and he talked to me and he talked to Chris.

And he called for a couple of years. He called once a week or so. And there was one time where John needed a pair of boots. He called once a week or so. And there was one time where John needed a pair of boots. He didn't have a shoes. And Chris said, send him the money for those boots, Toby. So we did. And we tried to help him out. Well, my husband is from Maine. He grew up in Maine. And one year we were driving back to Maine. Is he Stephen King? No, he's not. Breaking news. Okay, he's not. Breaking news.

He doesn't even like Stephen King. Maybe he's just saying that. Yeah, that could be. That could be. So we were going to drive back to Maine to see where Chris grew up and see his old friends and stuff. And John said, well, Toby, New Hampshire's right next to Maine. He said, I'm going to send you a visiting form. And I said, John, they are not going to let us come in to visit you. There's no way.

And he said, just fill out the form. So I filled it out and it came back approved. Oh my gosh! Can you believe it? Well, did they not know their ass from their elbow? Or was it because you had a new last name? I had a new last name, but it asked for a social security number. Right. Holy number. Right.

Holy crap. Wow. I don't know. So did you visit him? We went visiting. Chris and I both did. Yeah. Tell us everything.

So it was so weird because I had a panic attack in the waiting room going into the prison. Yeah. I mean, it was just the weirdest thing. And I felt so bad because, you know, my mom came to visit me every week the whole time I was in prison. My mom was so wonderful to me and so supportive of me. And it just broke my heart because sitting in that waiting room to go in to visit someone is so inhumane. Yeah. I mean, they search you, they take your stuff, they treat you like garbage because you're there to visit garbage. Yeah. And I felt so bad for what my mom went through to support me. And it just made me love her even more. Oh, yeah. And she's gone now. So I couldn't even tell her that. But you know, then we went in to see John. And it was like, it was so weird,

because here we are, you know, and I could give him a hug and Chris shook his hand you know and we sat down and visited and and John looks just the same except he's got a lot of gray hair now and we talked for a couple hours and we really had a good visit you know and Chris liked him yeah Chris said Toby he's so smart you know he's so intelligent it's it's good to have a conversation with him which is what attracted me to him to begin with right but the greatest thing was that it really gave me closure i bet you know because i could hug him and say goodbye and walk out the door and that you know that was that was that yeah and so we talked to john for maybe four or five months after that

visit and then he just kind of quit calling and I don't know where he is now he's not in New Hampshire but he's gone somewhere else so it sounds like you still had like some affection for him yeah I did I still like him you know even Chris says he likes him you know I think he's a decent guy I think he really got a bum rap I am not a fan of the felony murder charge and I'm not a fan of the death penalty either. Both of those things I'm against. And I just don't think that when you're 17, you should be sentenced to life in prison. That just doesn't sound, you know, you don't even make rational adult decisions when you're 17.

I think it's terrible that someone was killed. I don't think that that should be ignored. Real quick, just like for the legal side of this. So he did attempt to appeal his conviction based on the fact that they had tried him with the other person. Yeah. Because that's the only way that he was connected to the murders.

Like that was the deal from the beginning is that they knew he was not the person who had pulled the trigger. Right. There was never any doubt. But his appeal was denied. Yeah. Yeah.

A guy that I went to high school with was a Wall Street Journal reporter and he did a big article about me. Did we both read that one? Probably. Yeah. We both did. And he did a lot of research for his article and he actually talked to the prosecutor that prosecuted John Maynard. Yeah. And the prosecutor told him, I knew he didn't pull the trigger. Yeah. And he said, and I also knew that if he'd committed his crime in Wyandotte County or Jackson County, he'd have gotten eight years, but he committed his crime in Johnson County and we don't let people get away with that here. And that's just not right. You know, where you commit your crime

shouldn't affect the penalty. So a 17 year old being sentenced to life in prison, I can't. That's that's really difficult one to get behind. Yeah. So, you know, I don't think John will ever get out of prison. And that's sad. That's out of my hand. Absolutely. That's right.

So do you want to talk about like your life now? What you're up to now? Hold on. Hold on. Oh, you got more. I have I have a weird question. Oh, you got more, Kristen. I have a weird question. Okay.

Just because I'm curious. How long did you wait until you told Chris your story? Well, not very long at all, because here was the weird thing. So Chris and I worked together when I took that job in Boston. And I'd only been there like a week. They did some construction work. And one of the guys that was on their crew had gotten arrested for a DUI. They did some construction work.

And one of the guys that was on their crew had gotten arrested for a DUI. And Chris said, I need to write a letter to Oscar. He's in this jail up in Maine. And I said, well, do you know his inmate number? Because if you don't put his inmate number on the letter, they won't give it to him. And he was like, how do you know that? How the hell do you know that? And so he went that night home and Googled me. And he came back in the next day and he said, we need to talk. So he knew right away. So that was pretty funny. So today I

finished my memoir and my memoir is called Unleashed, a story of escape and redemption. And my memoir is called Unleashed, A Story of Escape and Redemption. And really, it focuses on rebuilding my life, what it took to rebuild. And it's with an agent now. Yay! And it's being considered by a publisher next week. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed. We'll keep all of our fingers crossed. Yes.

And I also signed a deal with an independent movie producer for the options to the story. And I'm co-writing the screenplay with her. That's amazing. Yeah, I'm so excited. And then I mean, the story tells like a movie. I know. I would watch this movie again and again. That's so true.

And then I have just finished a 12 week workbook for women in prison because I feel it's really important to be able to try to help those women who are in prison and offer them what I found is that I could use this time for my benefit to start to rebuild my life and to grow. book together that has six exercises for each week that kind of leads them down a path of examining who they are and what they need to change in their life so that when they get out of prison, they can get out and put the best foot forward. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah. You showed it to us tonight. And I was actually thinking that it could be good for kind of anyone, anyone. Yes, I've had some women read it and edit it for me. And they're like, this works for any woman, you know, because there's all kinds of prisons. You don't have to be behind bars. They're 100% are all.

Yeah, absolutely. So I am going to offer it. So the website for the workbook is called Butterflies Unleashed. And I will have it listed in there for sale within the next, well, by March 1st. Excellent. So within the next couple of weeks, it'll be available to buy on the website. That's great. It's really cool.

It was really, yeah, you showed us how to go through it. I was very impressed with it. Yeah, I've had a lot of fun putting it together. So, you know, there was a time I was on suicide watch, I don't know, two or three times while I was in prison. And the last time I was on suicide watch was the only time I should have been on suicide watch. And suicide watch is a terrible thing.

So you're in a cell with a glass front on it. And an officer sits outside your door. And every 15 minutes, they have to write in a book what you did for 15 minutes. And if you need to use the bath, you have to ask them for toilet paper. They'll give you four squares. Oh, my gosh. And if you want more than four squares you have to justify why and oh my god it's pretty bad they bring you your meals but they don't give you any utensils

and so you have to scoop up your food and eat it with your hands oh my gosh because you can't have any utensils i mean suicide watch is a terrible thing and you're naked yeah yeah and they give you a blanket that is two feet wide and four feet long. So you can lay on it or you can cover up with it. But you can't do both. Yeah. And it's a concrete floor and concrete walls. And it's cold.

It's horrible. And the lights never go off. And that time I was laying in there and I was just praying. I said, God, I can't do this anymore. Just let me go. Just come on. I've had enough. I just want do this anymore. Just let me go. Just come on. Just I've had enough. You know, I just want to be gone.

And I heard a voice tell me that I was going to survive this and I was going to get out of prison and I was going to share my story to change the lives of other women. And so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to honor that. That's amazing. Yeah. I feel really passionate about it. You know, there are people who would rather I didn't tell my story, but I can't stop. It's just has to be. Nor should you. Yeah. I don't

think, yeah, I don't think you should stop. You talk about, you know, rebuilding your life. How long did it take? Because this was 14 years ago, right? How long do you think it took for you to really get to where you are? I think it took 10 years to get to where I am. It was a long time, you know, and it took a lot of things to get to that point. It took meeting Chris, who supported me and encouraged me to continue to grow and to stand up for myself. It took making the decision to go to counseling for three years, once a week with no insurance, you know, $92 a week to go to counseling for three years that we couldn't even begin to afford. And I told Chris, we can't afford for me to go to counseling. And he said, we can't afford for you not to. And so I went and it took that. Plus it's also taken telling my

story, you know, standing up and owning it and sharing with other women and trying to help others. It's those three things that really has brought me through. Absolutely. Wasn't easy. I can't imagine. It would have been easier to just, you know, there was a time when I thought I'd get out of prison and I'd change my name and I'd just become someone different and I'd never talk about this. But I think that would have eaten me up. There's also through all of this, you suffered a great amount of loss through all of this too. The loss of your life before all of this, the loss of your identity before all of this. And you were in love with someone through all of this.

That's a big loss too. Yeah, it took me three and a half years to realize that I could live without loving John Maynard. Yeah. It was tough to get over. I mean, I was I was a basket case. Yeah. But I reached a point where I realized, you know, that wasn't going to be possible. And I just needed to let go and move on. Right. Was it scary to go to counseling? I think I feel like so many people are nervous about going to counseling, and they haven't been through half of what you've been through. It was scary. And it was such a relief to go to counseling. So I had lived my whole life never talking about anything that was bad in my life. Right. And so

I didn't know how to even do it. Yeah. But to finally be somewhere where I had permission to just talk about everything that was broken and not have someone tell me, stop talking about that. You know, that was kind of freeing, I guess. So, and you know, there were times when I didn't want to go down a particular path and I had a counselor that was good enough at her job to circle back to it when I was ready for it. So did you go to the same counselor for all that time? Yes, I did. And you found someone who you just really connected with

and it worked well for you? That's great. So I just loved her. She did an excellent job. And still, I can call her and say, I really need to come see you. And she'd work me in. Oh, yeah.

So I've only quit going on a regular basis a year ago. So it was good. Sometimes, I even wake up and I go, did I do that? Right. Was that my life? Not me. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it just seems so far fetched that I can't even believe it myself. Have you, I guess not as much now, but when all of this was first happening, you first got out of prison or whatever. Did people recognize you? Yes. Yeah. And that's why I moved to Boston. When I first got out of prison, I would go to a restaurant and people would be pointing at me and whispering.

And I couldn't deal with it. Oh, yeah. And so I went to Boston, took that five month job in Boston where I met Chris. Yeah. And then we came back here and we lived in Kansas City for a year. And then we moved to Sedalia, which was a little bit away, but still close enough that I could come back. And then three years ago, you know, I felt really called to come back to Kansas City. And I told Chris, you know, I ran away from Kansas City so I could heal. Now I need to go back because I can't really finish healing till I come back and face everybody here. So, yeah. It is kind of amazing that you're here. Yeah, you know, I think it would have been the natural inclination to go anywhere. Yes. And

I intended when I got out of prison, I was leaving. I wasn't staying in Kansas City ever. I was and I decided I wanted to go to Boston. And then I got a job offer in Boston the next day while I was still in prison, which is crazy. And I went to Boston and my son was dying of cancer, my youngest son, and I just needed to come back home. Yeah. But then you meet your husband in Boston. Like that's just like, yeah, that was so meant to be. It was. I think that's the only reason I went to Boston, you know, and I was only there five months, but he came back with me. Wow. So yeah, now it worked out. If you could undo anything, would you undo it? Here's how I feel about that. The person I am today would certainly never do what I did back then. Right. Absolutely. But I don't believe in regrets. Because regrets don't change anything. And they just take a lot of

energy. Yeah. And I like who I am today. I like where I am today. And I wouldn't be this person today without having gone through what I went through. So I don't wish it out of my life. I wish I could have handled things better. Right. And made smarter decisions about making a change in my life. But that wasn't possible at the time, the person that I was.

So, I mean, I accept it. That was my life. Yeah. That's my life. But that wasn't possible at the time, the person that I was. So yeah, I mean, I accept it. That was my life. Yeah, that's my path. But I'm wondering about, you know, before all this happened, you were really go, go, go. I was. You packed your schedule to the brim. Was that was that kind of like not wanting to face what was inside? It absolutely was. I realized that I kept myself so busy that at the end of the day, I was so exhausted that I couldn't think about how unhappy I was. It's like a coping mechanism. It is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. That constant busyness just consumed me and I couldn't didn't have time for anything else. Yeah. Yeah. It was the way I got through. Absolutely. Because if you

had slowed down, you might have thought about divorce more seriously or something. But instead of doing that, this very extreme option was presented to you. And somehow it seemed like an option. Yeah. I mean, it seemed like I knew that by doing this escape, that my life was going to change drastically. Yeah. And that's what you needed. And I needed a drastic change that I couldn't stop. Yeah. Because if I could talk myself out of that drastic change, I would have. Yeah.

So this was something that I couldn't stop once it started. And I think that deep down I knew I'd get caught and that I'd go to prison. I really think I knew that. But I never admitted it to myself. I did not ever think that John and I would be on the run forever. I never worked out in my head how it would stop, but I didn't see it as being the rest of my life. Because you wouldn't have wanted to leave your family permanently. No, I felt like I would be coming back home and I would see my sons again and my mom and dad. I always felt that.

But I never thought about how that was going to happen. Yeah. This is a sensitive question. So if you don't want to answer it, like, we'll cut it. You and John were in love with each other while he was in prison, but you couldn't let anybody know that. So how? Oh, that's.

Yeah. How would that how did that work? You couldn't would assume you couldn't be affectionate with each other. You couldn't. You couldn't, would assume you couldn't be affectionate with each other. That's right. You couldn't. You couldn't. And, you know, there were times like when I was checking a dog and he would reach down and pet the dog so he could touch my hand, you know, things like that. We would steal moments like that.

Yeah. But it was really an odd thing because I couldn't act any differently to him than I did to anyone else. Right. And I certainly couldn't give him a hug or hold his hand or anything, give him a kiss, none of that. So it was a strange situation, really. Yeah. Which just made it all the more emotionally driven to make this happen. Because, you know, you see this person every day and you know, you're in love with them and you can't

touch them. Yeah. And you just, you know, it just becomes bigger and bigger and bigger till it consumes you and you have to do something about it. Yeah. Were you ever alone together in the prison or were there always people around? There were moments that we could be alone for really brief times. But yeah, but not really. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and you had, you had everyone's trust, right? Yes, I did. And you know, I still feel so bad. The prison trusted me and the warden trusted me. And I really liked the warden. And when I was getting ready to be released from prison, I wrote him a letter. And I said, you know, I am so sorry that I embarrassed you and your prison. And I know that I had your full trust and I took advantage of it. And I'm sorry about that. And he wrote back to me. I mean, I had a letter within three days back from him. And he said, similar to that marshal in the parking lot, I believed and I still believe that you are a good person. And you have it in you to do good things in this world.

And don't let this act become who you are. Yeah, yeah. I treasure that. And I still have that letter. Yeah. And it means a lot. Oh, yeah, it means a real lot. Because I did feel bad that I kind of took advantage of that trust. That wasn't a very noble thing to do. Right. And I do regret that. So if I do regret anything, I guess I would say I regret I took advantage of their trust and I embarrassed the prison. But I can't undo it. No. And nor does it do you any good to dwell on that. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. I was going to say, it feels like this would be one of those situations where it would be so natural to feel so much shame. But it does you no good. And you can't do any good in the world when you're consumed by shame. That's right. Shame doesn't do anybody any good. And I write about that. In fact, one of the chapters in my memoir is all about shame. But you can't let shame own you and you can't let guilt own you either. You just have to take responsibility for what you did and you need to hold your head high and you

need to move forward. Yeah. Because that's the only way to make something good come up something that was dumb or something bad. Yeah, it really speaks to your character, how quickly you clutched onto that. Like I'm owning this, I'm not like, and because I know that's how I overcome this. Yeah, I knew it was the only way I could get through it. Because if I didn't, then that would be who I was. Right.

And if I even said it once, somehow I knew that even if just once I let somebody say John manipulated me, I could never get out from under that. Right. So from the very beginning, I mean, my attorneys wanted me to say that he manipulated me. Sure. The wardens at the jails I was at wanted me to say that. And I never would because that isn't true. Right. was at wanted him to me to say that and I never would because that isn't true right and in fact when I was talking to the movie producers I actually had four movie producers contact me

on the same day and want to purchase some movie options and one of them would have seemed like the best choice because he was associated with a big studio, and they had money. His name? Steven Spielberg. Oh, no. No, no. They wanted to get A-list actors and do a big theater thing. And he said, and here's the story. John Maynard manipulated you, and he used you. And I said, no, that's not the story.

Well, then I learned that if I sell the movie options to someone, they can do whatever they want. They can make that the story. And so I decided to go with this independent producer that saw the story the same way I did. Yeah. I think it's a better story the real way it is. I wonder if he thought that by saying it that way to you, you'd be more likely to sign on. Like, oh, yeah, it wasn't all me. I didn't.

I don't know. Maybe. Maybe he was thinking that, but he obviously hadn't done his research on you because you've been very forthright about what happened. And, you know, I feel better working with a woman producer because women can relate. Oh, yeah. You know, a guy, I mean, even Chris, my husband, sometimes he's like, how did you think that? Well, because, you know, that's how I think. Yeah.

So there is a difference between men and women and how we perceive things yeah so i think it needed to be a woman producer yeah well i'd watch the hell out of that movie yeah i think it's going to be good so yeah and the movie is actually going to be the script that we're working on is just going to be about the escape yeah capture you know it's not going to be about the rebuilding right right so yeah that's just boring yeah that's a lot of hard work yeah all those therapy sessions all that personal reflection yeah yeah you know except for the prison stories which are kind of fun yeah yeah well is there anything we haven't touched on? Well, you know, here's the thing that I noticed.

So I spent a lot of time. I spent 18 months inside the men's prison as a volunteer. And I was inside the men's prison at least five days a week, at least six hours a day. It was a lot of time. Yeah. So most volunteers don't do that. Right. You know, they come in one hour a week and they meet in a classroom with an officer in

the classroom. So I just broke all the, you know, the normal barriers of how things were run. And I spent time inside the women's prison in Kansas as an inmate. In the men's prison, the most critical job, the only job in the prison that is on a 24-7 call is the guy who runs the cable TV. Wow. What? Because if the cable goes out at two in the morning, he better be in there within 30 minutes to fix it or there's going to be a riot. I was going to say, yeah, it's how you keep them controlled. In the women's prison, the same state, the same Department of Corrections, in the women's prison, there is no

cable TV. Wow. There is no gymnasium. There's no exercise classes. There's nothing. Nothing. Wow. Because the women take it. They don't stand up for themselves. You know, they don't demand peanut butter on the commissary. Right. So that's a huge difference in the way and I was stunned. You know, they don't, they don't demand peanut butter on the commissary. So that's a huge difference in the way. And I was stunned. You know, I thought when I got to women's prison, I knew what it was going to be like, you know, there's going to be cable TV, and there's going to be this and there's going to be that. There was nothing. Wow, what a difference that is. Same administration. You would think they'd be the same, but they're not. You know, we were talking earlier about, and I thought you were going to say this,

it was about the differences between a men's prison and a women's prison. And you were talking about how you decided to add the chapter about boundaries to your book. And you said something interesting. Do you want to, do you know? Yeah. So in the workbook, when I first put the workbook together, I thought it would be important to include a chapter on service, on how to help other people. And then I realized in talking with some of the people at the women's prison in Chillicothe and then talking with my husband,

women are in prison for totally different reasons than men are. Men are in prison because they're standing up for themselves and they're demanding respect and somebody did them wrong and they're're trying to get revenge and men are in prison for violent reasons generally the women are in prison mostly because a guy asked him to do something and they did it so I decided that the women in prison don't really need to learn about service what they need to learn is how to say no and how to set boundaries and decide that if it's not the right thing to do, they're not going to do it. You know, that they have the power to say no. So that's really what I've changed in the workbook.

So now we talk about teaching them to set boundaries. And we also have a chapter on discernment so that they can decide that, you know, that's really not something that's going to benefit me. That's not why he's asking me to do this. So I'm going to benefit me. That's not why he's asking me to do this. So I'm going to say no. So there's a big difference between women in prison and men in prison. Just the whole feel of the place too. I have a weird question. Ask it. I might have a weird answer. Okay, you might. Again, I'm thinking dateline. I'm thinking true crimey stuff. So you guys were going from Kansas to this cabin in Tennessee.

I assume you didn't want to, like, print out directions from your computer because you assumed that somebody might access that. Did you have old school maps? How did you guys do it? So here's the funny thing. I knew what highways we were going to take until we got to a certain place. And then I brought my laptop along. Yeah. were going to take until we got to a certain place. And then I brought my laptop along. Yeah.

And John had told me, you know, don't name anything on your laptop, a name that would make sense to someone because somebody got your laptop, they, you know, they'd see stuff. So he told me to name these files, weird stuff. So the directions to the cabin that we were staying in, I named it something weird and I couldn't remember what I named it. And so when we got to Tennessee, I couldn't find the directions. And I said, John, just let me run into that diner and ask for directions to this lake. And he said, don't you understand, Toby, we just escaped from prison. You don't go in and ask for directions. And it was kind of funny but i eventually did go in and ask for directions and we found the cabin yeah and i never found that file on my computer oh my gosh you hid it too well yeah yeah it was weird too because there weren't smartphones then right yeah and so we did stop finally we got lost so many times going different places

that we stopped and bought a gps and that was the night that we got caught we had just bought a gps so we'd know where we were going yeah but it didn't do any good because it didn't say on the gps don't run into this track i do wonder if you had a smartphone now, if it would say roadblock ahead. It probably would. Traffic congestion ahead. Yeah, it might. That's interesting.

I found a really interesting article. And so I've got all these articles on my Butterflies Unleashed website. But they were talking about how prisons are made for men. And no one ever considered women going to prison. So even the clothes you wear are men's clothes. And they're cut men's shapes and you know it was just a really interesting what's the what's the underwear situation crappy yeah yeah it's just big granny pants yeah and uh and like a bra with no underwire sports oh sports bra. Oh, a sports bra. Okay. Because I'm like, they're not going to give you underwire. No, sure.

You get a sports bra. Yeah. The clothes are terrible. What about, you ever get like athlete's foot from that shower in there? No, I never did. You never did. But you know, you can have shower shoes, but you got to be able to buy them. And there's so many women that can't afford to buy them.

So here's the crazy thing about prison. The only way that you can call out of a prison is to call collect or to call on a phone card. And it costs like $2 for 15 minutes. It's ridiculous. Yeah. It's a racket. Yeah. And it's the only link that any of these people in prison have to their families to try to maintain a life.

And these phone companies come in and they just gouge them. It just makes me sick. So maybe that's the next thing I'm going to try to do. Yeah. Get rid of those phone companies come in and they just gouge them. It just makes me sick. So maybe that's the next thing I'm going to try to do. Yeah. Get rid of those phone companies. Maybe start my own phone company. There you go. It charges reasonable rates to inmates.

Yeah. I assume the only way to get money in your commissary account is for someone from the outside to put it in. To send it to you. Or do you have jobs in prison where you can earn a little bit of money? Well, here's the difference. Okay. Again, it's men and women. The prisons I was in anyway, there were very few jobs for the women. So there wasn't anything that you could do. And so you were, you relied on people sending money in and putting money on your books. In the men's prison where I

was a volunteer, you could have any job you wanted. I mean, there were jobs for everybody. There was more jobs than there were people to fill them. Again, because it keeps them occupied, right? Yes. Yeah. And in the men's prison, there was 11 private industries that were set up in there. And one of the biggest ones, if you get a college, any kind of a college shirt with something embroidered on it, it came from the Lansing Correctional Facility. It's the only place they make them. My sister got me one for Christmas. I'm going to look at that differently. At least when I was volunteering there, they owned the NCAA licensing. And they're paid below minimum wage.

Oh, yeah. Way below. Uh-huh. Way below minimum wage. So these companies make tons of profit. Yeah. And I think they should have to like hire so many felons after they're released in order to keep, you know, that contract

in there. But everybody tries to take advantage of inmates every way they can. How about that for you? Has that been a challenge for you carrying around? Oh yeah. I haven't had a job since I got out of prison. Yeah. Nobody would hire hire me what about even just renting somewhere to live like well i didn't have a problem with that actually i don't know how they know i guess they do some kind of criminal background i think now it's been 14 years since i was sentenced yeah this month wow yeah it was february uh-huh wow what's the date today fe? February 12th was the day of the escape. Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh! That's like coming up.

Yes! So it's been 14 years since the escape. And I think when they do a general background check for renting something, that it falls off after five or six or seven years. Was that a specific plan? Did you guys want to be together for Valentine's Day? No. It just worked out. Just worked out that way.

Yeah, just worked out that way. But yeah, we worked together for Valentine's Day? No, it just worked out. Just worked out that way. But yeah, we worked together for Valentine's Day. Yeah. Randy, you're such a romantic. You would think it was. That was the bonus. Right. That was a funny thing that they worked because we knew that people who usually helped him with adoptions weren't going to be able to come that day. And there was a different officer on duty that day. And the weather was supposed to be bad. And my husband was working at the fire station and would be gone for 24 hours. And yeah, yeah, there was just all the things that came together. Yeah. I like you a lot. I think you're so cool. I remember being so nervous to meet you the first time.

Isn't that funny? I was so nervous. And I don't know what I thought. You know, what I thought was going to happen. Did you think she was going to shove you in a dog crate? Exactly. Exactly. What was going to happen?

But like our little group, I remember you left and I stayed behind with Kitty, our other group member. And she's like, so what do you think? And I was like, I really like her. I really liked her. So I don't know. Were you feeling nervous? I was. I was very nervous. But my nerves came from the fact that you guys already know each other. I didn't know. So yeah, I was worried about that dynamic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see that. So that's kind of interesting. I'm wondering if I've got any more weird questions. I don't know.

I guess I'm just so fascinated by the planning. Yeah. Yeah. That goes into something like that. You know, it was kind of fun. It was like a game. Yeah. It's like a project.

Yeah. I was into it. I was a project planner. Yeah. You know, I was like, hey, yeah, this is dependent on that. And this, you know. Absolutely. Yeah.

It all came together. Man. At the same time, it's also with this specific set of circumstances. It's also a puzzle. How do I make it all work together? Yeah. Yeah. I could get behind that.

I know. That's a fun fact about Brandy. Brandy's obsessed with puzzles. I see. Yeah. Now she wouldn't dye her hair. She loves a puzzle game. That's game. No, but it's true. I mean, you're smart and you're accomplished. And so you set your mind to this thing.

John sounds like he was smart too and had a totally different skill set. At your sentencing, they had an expert come and talk and I can't remember anything about it but it was something like this it was the warden the warden from the prison the one that I wrote to and apologized to they called him as a witness okay and my sentencing and he said that his hobby was researching prison escapes and you know he's read about all of them and he said in his mind this one had to be in the top five of the last century. Wow. In prison escapes. So that was kind of a cool thing.

A little tip of the hat to him. And there had been, I think a few years ago, there was another one, right? Yeah, Joyce Mitchell. And actually, I believe she got released from prison yesterday. Oh, really? Yes. Wow. Yes.

Wow. How did you feel toward her when you heard that story? I felt so bad for her. I felt so sorry for her. And I knew that the media was going to crucify her and make her out in the worst light they possibly could. And they did. And I have felt sorry for her. I've written to her a couple of times. I never did get a reply. But I knew it was going to be tough for her. Yeah. So she if memory serves, and I haven't looked at her case in a long, long time, didn't she help to is this the two in Amora? Yeah, yeah. Two men escape. Yeah, she did. And I knew, you know, when I saw that on the news, I thought, Oh, gosh, now I'll be back in the news. And I was that

Anderson Cooper interview. Yeah, bald one in the inside and the Inside Edition. And so, you know, I talked to Chris and I said, what should I do? They're going to start calling. And he said, well, talk to them. You know, you need to talk to them. And at the time, this was kind of funny, but let me get to this other part. So the minister at our church, our pastor, he said to me, after I did a couple of those interviews, he said, Toby, you made Joyce Mitchell a human. And he said, I never saw her as a human until I heard your interview. And he said, that was a great thing that you did. But this was so funny. So I had a web design business. And 90% of my clients were Amish. And they wanted me to come to this training in Lincoln, Nebraska, for this system that they all needed to use, because they can't use the internet. So I was

going to have to look stuff up for the system. So they want they paid for me to come to this training. They were all there too. And that was the weekend of Joyce Mitchell story breaking. And that was the weekend I did the Anderson Cooper interview and the Brooke Baldwin interview. And I did them from Lincoln, Nebraska, remotely. Yeah. And I said to these Amish people, you know, I have to leave, I need to go to a meeting, but I'll be back in an hour and a half. And I went over to the local TV station to do this interview. Yeah. And I came back to the local TV station to do this interview. And I came back to the hotel where the meeting was and they were all sitting in the lobby watching the TV and I was

on the screen. And they just loved it. You know, and I thought there goes my business. You know, these Amish people aren't going to want to have anything to do with a woman who's been in prison, but they loved it. You know, they were just so excited about it. So I thought that was funny because I didn't expect that at all. Yeah. Not the reaction that you expected. This could be another personal one that we just cut. But I remember being struck when we would talk about your story that obviously there were a ton of people who, you know, claimed, oh, can't relate to this at all. Don't understand it. How did this happen? But you had women write to you and say that they totally understood. I had women write to me while I was in prison, women that I didn't know. And they said,

oh my God, I know exactly what you were thinking. That could have been me. And I don't think, I mean, my story culminated in a different act in many women's stories, but it's no different than almost every woman's story out there who's unhappy. You know, everyone has something that breaks them at a certain point and they do something stupid, whether it's driving home, having too much to drink or, you know, just doing something that they regret. That was a dumb decision. So I just think that my method of taking an action is totally different than everybody else's, but it's not, the story's no different. This has been awesome. Yeah. I've enjoyed it too. Thank you for sitting down with us. You're welcome. Do you want to give people your website? Yeah. So the website for my story and my book is just TobyDor.com.

And that's T-O-B-Y-D-O-R-R-1-0-2-R-S dot com. And the website for the workbook for the women in prison is ButterfliesUnleashed.com. And we're going to be putting a program on the Butterflies Unleashed website in the next week or two, so that women out there in the community can sponsor the program for a woman in prison, because the women in prison don't have any money to be able to, you know, sign up for a program. So we're going to make that available, just like you'd sponsor a dog. Yeah, you know, in a foreign country or something, you can sponsor a woman in prison. Yeah. So that'll be on the website. Yeah. On that'll be on the website.

Yeah. On that note, let's wrap up. We're not going to do our traditional outro because it would be kind of silly. Our source for this episode is Toby. It's Toby, obviously. Live and in person. That's right. I didn't bring my dog crate.

Although I did have a friend give me a big black wire dog crate. And so I use it when I go to do speeches and I just set it on the stage. Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. That would be very effective. Absolutely. Do you have a speaking event coming up?

I don't. Okay. I don't. But I'm looking for them. So if anybody's interested, you know. How do they get in contact with you? Well, the best way is to just go to my website. Or they can email me at toby Toby door at gmail.com.

Perfect. Thank you so much. You're welcome. This has been amazing. It's been fun. I wasn't sure what to expect, but it was fun. Good. We're a couple of goofballs.

Guys, thank you for joining us for this episode. And thank you for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We are on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We are on Reddit. We're on Patreon.

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