Let's Go To Court! - 112: The Sinking of the USS Indianapolis & the Caffey Family Murders

Episode Date: March 11, 2020

In the summer of 1945, the USS Indianapolis was tasked with a top secret mission. The ship was to transport materials for the atomic bomb that the United States would later drop on Hiroshima, Japan. Under the leadership of Captain Charles B. McVay III, the ship accomplished its mission. From there, the ship headed off to Guam, and then to the Philippines. But before they left for the Philippines, Captain McVay requested a destroyer escort. The USS Indianapolis didn’t have submarine detection equipment, but destroyer escorts did. His request was denied. So, off he sailed into submarine infested waters. Then Brandi tells us the story of the Caffey family murders. Terry Caffey woke up to a blast, riddled with bullets. Two men were in his bedroom. They had guns. One had a samurai sword. The men murdered his wife, Penny, and left Terry for dead. Soon, Terry smelled smoke. The men had set his house on fire. Nearly dead but desperate to get help, Terry found the strength to get himself to a neighbor’s house.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: www.ussindianapolis.org “Captain, once a scapegoat, is absolved,” by David Stout for the New York Times “USS Indianapolis sinking: ‘You could see sharks circling’” by Alex Last for the BBC “USS Indianapolis,” entry on Wikipedia “Charles B. McVay III,” entry on Wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Flesh and Blood” by Pamela Colloff, Texas Monthly “Father Uses Family Massacre to Help Others” by David Lohr, AOLNews “Girl, 17, Gets 2 Life Terms In Family Slay” Associated Press, CBSNews “Family Slaughtered for Teen Love” episode Dr. Phil “Erin Caffey” episode Killer Women with Piers Morgan  

This episode of Let's Go to Court is brought to you by Thrive Cosmetics. Another one! One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court!

On this episode, I'll talk about the USS Indianapolis. And I'll be talking about the Caffey family murders. Really, Brandy? Another family murder? What, do you have a list? Do you have like a creepy list? This actually was set as a suggestion, so. Oh, so it's not your fault?

It's not my fault. It's in no way my fault. Okay, mine? Yeah. Prepare to be fascinated. Oh, I'm excited. Okay. I mean, it sounds a little history which is

yeah i know you but here's the thing about you though you're always like meh history but then when i start telling it you get into it yeah that's because i'm a really good actor no i know it's for real because your nips get okay all right you're a little embarrassed i feel like it's been a minute since we've done this. Yeah. Should we take a second? Yeah. So Norman and I went out of town to Charleston.

Yeah. And so you just cried the whole time. You missed us so much. I did. No, you didn't. Tell them what you really did last Wednesday, Brandy. Where were you last Wednesday? So yeah, last Wednesday when we would typically record because they were out of town, we had

pre-recorded. And so I went and got a pedicure and Starbucks and got my nails done. It's a white girl dream. So Norman and I were in Charleston and Brandy texts me. I text her. I'll have you know, I'm sitting here getting a pedicure right now, drinking Starbucks and playing Best Fiend. So, yeah, you text me that. Meanwhile, and you can't make this up.

Norman and I were touring a plantation and I was touring the slave quarters. Yeah. So we were having very different days. I was so upset. We sure were. It was a wonderful trip. I mean, if you're into history, which Brandy is not, so that's why she was at Starbucks.

That's why I was getting my pedicure. This pedicure, let me tell you, I did the treat yourself version. Did you do the gel like I told you? I didn't do the gel. Brandy, damn it. I didn't do the gel. What do I have to do? To get you to get into a gel pedicure today i've been trying to push the gel pedicure on you for like months and you're just like okay but anyway so what'd you do i got the like a eucalyptus mint version.

Oh, they did this like whole sugar scrub thing on my legs. And this cooling mint lotion. Oh, oh, I did enjoy myself very much, but I did miss recording. I missed you too. Yeah. I'm glad we're back. Yes, me too. Okay.

Are you ready for this oh wait i have one i have one sort of show notey type of thing to share okay what is it did you see that there's been a big filing on the golden state killer no oh my god so this whole big motion was submitted by the defense and i didn't read all of it But basically in the footnotes of this huge motion was something to the effect of if you take the death penalty off the table, he will plead guilty. He's 72 years old. Like what? What's the holdup? Take it off the table. Get him to plead guilty and be done with it. Right? Yeah. I, that guy is the scariest, like guy is the scariest. Like, that is the scariest story, what he did to people. Yeah.

I don't understand the holdup. It's in California anyway. They're not going to put him to death anyway. They have a moratorium on the death penalty. So what's the point? I don't know. I don't know. I just.

If that will get him to plead guilty, do it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, of course, if there's anybody who you think that the death penalty might be you know perfect for i get it he's a terrible person the death penalty might be perfect for you make it sound like a gift right yeah i saw the death penalty and i thought of you because you raped so many women and you murdered people but like bang bang boom this thing could be done with it's nothing has happened and it's been almost two years since he's been arrested right but you know

he's so weak now oh yeah bullshit he showed up in court in his little wheelchair meanwhile they said that he was like on a motorcycle right before that he's like harvey weinstein with his little walker color me not fooled okay are you ready for this did you see the thing i shared in the discord about harvey weinstein oh the props the department thing yeah it was like a it was like one of those like um what are they it's like a they call them a cartoon cartoon but yes okay so but it's a very specific style like the political cartoons typically are but it was yeah it was like said props department and there was like a a guy turning in a walker and he's like yeah harvey doesn't need this anymore yeah yeah okay sorry can you please tell us about the uss indian oh yeah i'm sorry i keep

interrupting i interrupted i did all of that i apologize no here we go okay so i don't know how to say this person's name in the discord jrad35 i think it's drawn suggested this case actually a long time ago okay and they said the court case began 74 years ago and the whole story is incredibly interesting. Full disclosure, my grandfather was on board. Whoa! Yes. So here we go. First of all, shout outs.

So the USSIndianapolis.org website is amazing. They've got the whole story written up there, all kinds of good links. Also, there was a really good interview by the BBC. And don't sleep on the Wikipedia pages, folks. They've got some good stuff. Here we go. Very good. It was the summer of 1945 and World War II was trucking along. And that's when the USS Indianapolis received a highly classified top secret mission. They were to transport

components of the atomic bomb, codenamed Little Boy, to Tinian Island, which is a little bit north of Guam and southeast of Japan. So they prepared for their mission. On board, they loaded enriched uranium and other crucial components, don't ask me what components, of the atomic bomb that the United States would later drop on Hiroshima, Japan. That bomb, along with the second bomb, which the U.S. would drop on Nagasaki, would kill hundreds of thousands of people and injure and harm many others. Wow.

Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's not, yeah. For anyone who's like, well, yeah, duh. A lot of these articles, like, they just say, yeah, they were transporting components of the atomic bomb and then they go on and I'm kind of like, let's pause. Yeah, let's see. Yeah. Because that was horrible.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. For anyone who doesn't know, atomic bombs are bad. You know, we really teach amazing things on this podcast. We certainly do. People are learning a lot. It's really an educational podcast.

Oh, and another fun fact the vast majority of the victims of the atomic bombs were women and children's yeah yeah yeah it only gets more fun from here folks in all likelihood the men on board the uss indianapolis obviously had no idea what they were really transporting or for what purpose they just knew they had a very important mission and they needed to do it quickly. For millions of obvious reasons, they did not want to get caught. They did not want to get spotted. And luckily, they were in good hands.

Captain Charles Butler McVeigh III was the commanding officer of the Indianapolis. And this guy knew his shit. Excellent. First of all, he was like born to be in the navy his dad had been an admiral in the navy he'd made waves in world war one i wrote that down because it was so good great i almost missed it because i was over here singing in the navy i could tell i could tell i was she's doing, her shoulders are moving and she's going to miss this hilarious joke that I have teed up for her. So Charles wanted to follow in his dad's footsteps. He graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1920.

And in World War II, he kicked ass and took names. At one point in the spring of 1945, under his leadership, the Indianapolis shot down seven enemy planes before the ship was struck by a kamikaze. Eight people died and the ship was damaged, but Captain McVeigh navigated them safely back to California before there could be any more loss of life. What is your face doing right now? Nothing. What's is it kiki she looks so cute you guys she's in the cat tree behind me um can you pay attention i am paying attention the tiny ship was lost it's not a tiny ship at all it's about serious business it's oh my god that's something my dad says oh the transformation is nearly complete.

It's about the size of two football fields. So in other words, Captain Charles McVeigh was a total badass. If you had to be out at sea, you wanted to be with him. Yeah, absolutely. By the time he was asked to lead the USS, I'm stumbling over USS.

Can I just say Indianapolis? Yeah. Yeah, is that okay? From here on out, we're just going to call it the Indianapolis and everybody's going to be just fine with it. And then after a while, just Andy. So by the time he was asked to lead them on this secret mission, he'd received the Silver Star for Courage Under Fire, and he'd served as the chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee. He was the real deal. Yeah. So they took off from san francisco headed to pearl harbor they made it there in 74 and a half hours which i'm told is amazing that's not a speed record

yeah i don't know i don't know what's fast what's slow this was fast yeah from there they took off on their own this is what i have in my notes from there they took off on their own no backup to tinny oh no backup like no back no it's not like no backup that's exactly how i was reading on there they were all by themselves okay wow wow present kristin is more stupid than past Kristen of like three hours ago. To Tinian Island. Seven days later, on July 26th, they arrived on the island and delivered components of the little boy. That doesn't seem as fast. I think it was a little more dangerous. No, well, probably further, too, but I'm thinking more dangerous than just going from California to Pearl Harbor.

Just from California to Pearl Harbor? I do it 20 times a week. So many times. Next, they went to Guam where they swapped out a few sailors, and then they were scheduled to set sail toward Leyte, which is an island in the Philippines. But before they took off for Leyte, island in the Philippines. But before they took off for Leyte, Captain McVeigh made a request. The Indianapolis was a great ship, but it didn't have submarine detection equipment. So he said, hey, could we get a destroyer escort to go with us for safety? Because those things had submarine detection equipment on them. His request was denied. Wow. So they took off no backup no backup also no backup it was the first time in all of world war ii that a u.s ship that didn't have submarine detection equipment went unaccompanied in those waters wow but you, everything was fine until about halfway to their destination.

They were spotted by a Japanese submarine. The submarine was led by Commander Mochitsura Hashimoto. And, you know, he did what you do when you see an enemy ship. Yeah. He ordered his men to attack. It was just after midnight on July 30th, 1945, when Hashimoto launched six torpedoes at the Indianapolis. One hit the ship. Bam. Instant chaos. There was fire everywhere, parts flying. A little while later, the second one hits. And that one almost tore the ship in half. Oh my gosh. In an effort to stop the ship from sinking, they closed compartments of the ship, but it was no use.

The ship was on fire. It was on its side. It was going down. And that's when the 1,197 men on board got their orders. Abandon ship. The torpedoes had knocked out the electrical system, so Captain McVeigh just had to shout it. Abandon ship! Abandon ship. The torpedoes had knocked out the electrical system, so Captain McVeigh just had to shout it. Abandon ship! Abandon ship! The men started jumping as the ship capsized

and sank. In just 12 minutes, that huge ship was gone. Oh my gosh. 300 men died with the ship. They'd been trapped below deck when the compartments closed up, which I always picture that scene in Titanic. Do you picture that, too? Yes. Is that what everybody pictures? I'm sure. Where else have you seen it visualized like that? Exactly, yeah.

But that meant that 900 men were able to get off the ship before it sank. So you got 900 men floating in the water. Some had life vests. Some didn't. But it was going to be okay because Charles McVeigh had remained calm under the pressure. He had ordered them to abandon ship and he'd sent out three SOS messages before the ship went down. It couldn't be long before someone would come to the rescue. Are these shark infested waters

can you keep your well i'm trying to determine something what are you trying to determine if this is the story from jaws is it the story from jaws i'm not familiar with that film or any other films hours passed they waited out in the water. The sun came up. It was about 100 degrees. Oh, gosh. The water was clear. You could see a long ways down.

And that's when the men spotted sharks. Oh, my gosh. It is the story from Jaws. Yes. If anyone is wondering, oh, was that a true story? That was a true story. Hundreds of sharks from miles around had come to feed on the dead bodies the sharks fed and fed and fed and hours turned to days and the sharks had eaten all the dead men so they began picking the live men oh my gosh one of the survivors was L.D. Cox. Looking back on the shark attacks, he said,

We were losing three or four each night and day. You were constantly in fear because you'd see them all the time. Every few minutes, you'd see their fins, a dozen to two dozen fins in the water. They would come up and bump you. I was bumped a few times. You never knew when they were going to attack you. I know. It just freaks me out yeah the days were blisteringly hot the nights were deadly cold without fresh water and delirious from dehydration some of the men became so thirsty that they drank

the salt water and died for safety the men tried to stay together. But again, without food or water, with all the shark attacks, some of them started to lose it. They hallucinated. Some killed themselves. Some killed others. Days dragged on. And more and more of the 900 men who'd survived the ship sinking, died. And then, after four days in the water, a Navy plane just happened to fly over them and happened to spot them. Nobody got the SOS messages? Good question. Wow.

Couple different answers on that. Okay. The rescue mission took a long time. I'm not going to go into it fully because, I mean, the sad thing is it's not as simple as like, oh, we spot them and oh, there's an immediate rescue that's really fast and everyone's taking care. I mean, it was it was a mess. Well, yeah, because on the one side, there's also a war going on. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And these are waters that clearly have submarines in them. Oh my gosh.

Are we going to risk more people? Yeah. Yeah. It was a mess. But ultimately, of the 900 men who abandoned ship when the Indianapolis sank, only 316 survived. Wow. Captain Charles McVeigh was one of them. In the days after the rescue, Captain McVeigh wanted answers. He had sent three SOS messages. Why had those been ignored?

Mm-hmm. The Navy claimed that those SOS messages had never been received. Mm-hmm. That was their position for decades. The Indianapolis was under radio silence, and therefore, no one could receive its messages. But here's the truth, which we know now thanks to documents that have been declassified. Those messages were received, and they were ignored. Because they thought the risk was too great, the lives were probably already lost?

If only. I mean, that would be, I mean, not a good reason but at least like something that at least somebody put thought into it here here's what happened to the first one a commander received it and he was drunk oh my gosh so he just didn't do anything about it the second one someone received it and they were like this is clearly the Japanese trying to trap us. No way. Oh, my gosh. Third one.

Some lower level guys received it. But their commander had said, hey, don't disturb me. I'm busy. Don't disturb me. So they didn't disturb him by letting him know that a huge ship with over a thousand men on it had gone down. Yeah. Wow. So the SOS messages had been ignored.

But what about the fact that the Indianapolis was scheduled to arrive in the Philippines and never did? Yeah. Didn't somebody notice that a giant ship was missing? Why didn't people come looking for them after that? What do you think? Well, yeah, they should have noticed that. Yeah.

Well, I mean, wouldn't I? Because of how dangerous the mission was, maybe the assumption would be like, yeah, something probably did happen. And they're all dead. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Again.

No. The real answer is like so much more infuriating. So here's the truth. Again, what we know now, decades later, thanks to these declassified documents. Of course, the commander in Guam and the commander in Leyte kept records of when the ships came and went. Obviously, you would keep records. But they weren't super accurate. So I don't fully understand this.

But basically, these records were more like estimates. And they just kind of figured a ship as big as the Indianapolis. Like, well, yeah, that's going to arrive on time. So, OK, well, they say they're going to arrive at this time. All right, we'll take that down off the board. All right, we're good. Wow. So it just got kind of like marked, checked off.

Like, yeah, everything's good. Exactly. Even though it never arrived. On the day that the Indianapolis was supposed to arrive, they marked it as arrived. Wow. Detail shmeetails. Am I right? But this wasn't a matter of shmeetails.

That sounds like a Captain Hook spinoff. Trademarking that. It's a great idea. But this wasn't a matter of like one guy screwed up on his job. Multiple guys didn't do their job. Because you had the guys who were supposed to like keep up the plotting charts and all that stuff but you also had guys like lieutenant stewart gibson who was in charge of charting the movements of the indianapolis when the ship didn't come in this is unbelievable to me stewart didn't do anything wow he noted all right didn't come in didn't tell anybody didn't alert anyone

i don't know if he's one of these guys who like doesn't really understand his job oh my gosh um but yeah cool all these guys got either letters of reprimand or letters of admonition from the navy which my understanding is that that's bad, bad, real bad. Doesn't sound real bad. But anyway, that's what they did. But it obviously wasn't enough. This was the biggest loss of life on a single ship in the U.S. Navy's history. Wow. This was bad.

And it could have been prevented. And if not prevented, the damage could have been mitigated. Yeah. If everyone had been doing their jobs. This was very embarrassing for the Navy. And also another thing I saw was like other guys in the Navy heard about this and they were like, what the hell? I mean, can you imagine how scary that would be? Yeah, it'd be terrifying.

Yeah. Like, what's going to happen to me? Yeah. So they needed someone to blame. And who better than Captain Charles McVeigh? Of course the captain gets blamed. So they looked themselves in the mirror and they said, let's go to court. Military court. They started a closed door court of inquiry into Captain McVeigh's behavior on the night that the ship sank. And what'd they find?

I think they found nothing. Yeah. It's not his fucking fault that people ignored his SOSs. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They were looking at two main issues. Whether Captain McVeigh had failed to order his men to abandon ship in a timely manner and whether he'd failed to zigzag okay you're making faces what's going on with you well 900 men made it off the ship when he said abandoned ship so it seems

like he gave plenty of notice well and also i'm sure if the electrical system hadn't been wiped out yeah then yeah you get on the intercom you do what you can yeah what what more can a person do yeah other than shout it and tell other people to shout it i mean yeah he's not super human three quarters of the people on board were able to abandon ship yeah i'd say done seems like he did what he was supposed to do there how about if you guys would have sent him that destroyer to accompany him like he asked. What did I say? But. No, back up. No, back up. No, back up.

So they're looking at that and they're looking at whether he failed to zigzag as he should have. Okay. It's a giant ship. You can't zigzag out of a torpedo. Very good. Giant ship. You can't zigzag out of a torpedo. Very good. So right off the bat, they called Captain McVeigh to the stand and asked if he had zigzagged on the night that the ship went down.

And he said no. So here's the thing. No, I'm sorry. I didn't have my dinghy out that day. I was in a giant ship. Don't know if you guys know this. No, so here's the thing. Zigzagging wasn't mandatory. It was something that he was told he could do at his discretion.

And obviously, I'm super knowledgeable about this living in the landlocked state of Missouri. But my understanding is that zigzagging is a thing that you can do. But you do it when you have really good visibility. If the visibility is low, if it's also nighttime, you shouldn't be zigging and zagging through the seas. Yes. All right. That's my advice to everyone. Summer's coming up.

Boating season right around the corner. So some of his fellow survivors testified and they were like, well, yeah, the captain didn't zigzag, but that was smart. Visibility was limited. And one of them said, you know, I was on deck. I couldn't see who was a couple yards away from me. I could see the outline of them, but I couldn't make them out. Visibility was limited. You don't zigzag in that situation. And again, it's not like the guy was disobeying orders.

He was told, you have discretion. So, you know. Yeah. He disgraced. He sure did. Ultimately, the court of inquiry decided to court-martial Captain McVeigh. Fuck off! This was a controversial decision.

So nearly 400 U.S. ships went down in world war ii this was the first time that a captain of one of those ships was being court-martialed yeah and it's because they had to cover it up because obviously somebody up they gottaning it on this. I mean, he seems like an amazing captain. On top of that, Captain McVeigh's superiors and a bunch of other big time Navy dudes were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't do this. He didn't do anything wrong. But his trial. They're like, watch us. Yeah.

We're more important than you. That's my impression of D.C. politics for you. And you. That's my impression of D.C. politics. His trial began at the Washington Navy Yard on December 3rd, 1945. The first charge was kind of a no brainer. So, you know, he'd been accused of not issuing timely orders to abandon ship. And people were like, OK, you know, no, no, because the thing went down in 12 minutes. And as you said, 900 people were able to abandon ship. 75 percent. Yeah. Obviously, 900 people were able to abandon ship.

75%. Yeah, obviously, he did a pretty damn good job. I'm really good at math. When I can pretend it's a dollar. Hey, whatever works for you. But the second charge about failing to zigzag was where there was real debate. The Navy's position was that Captain McVeigh should have zigzagged for safety. And he hadn't. And therefore, he had put his men and the ship at risk. And as a result, the ship had been struck and there'd been a terrible loss of life. Bada bing, bada boom, it was all his fault. No. The defense, again, was like, whoa. First of all, he was following orders. He had the order to zigzag at his discretion.

He used his discretion. Again, they were traveling at night. Visibility was limited. Now, for whatever reason, the statements from survivors who had all said, yeah, visibility was limited, was not made available at this trial. made available at this trial interesting then captain hashimoto the man who had commanded the japanese submarine that sunk the indianapolis testified and he said through a translator i'm sorry what yeah isn't this wild bringing in the enemy to testify by this point the war was over and they i mean they went and got. That's so fucking weird to me. This is a big cover-up.

I mean, yeah. And he got on the stand and he said, yeah, if only he would have zigzagged, we never would have been able to hit him. No, no. Here's what he said. He said, to be honest, even if the ship had been zigzagging,

I don't think it would have made a difference. I think I could have hit it either way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a giant ship. How fast can it zigzagging, I don't think it would have made a difference. I think I could have hit it either way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a giant ship. How fast can it zigzag? Yeah. Then a well-respected U.S. submarine commander testified, and he backed up what Captain Hashimoto said. He was like, yeah, you put me in those same conditions in a submarine. It's not going to matter if it's zigzagging. I could take that out. Yeah. Despite all that, Captain McVeigh was found guilty of hazarding his ship by failure to zigzag in good visibility. Cool. That's such bullshit. Yeah. Yeah, it's horrible. It's absolutely horrible.

And you wonder, okay, my hope is that he was like, this is bullshit. I'm the fall guy for this terrible thing where other people weren't doing their jobs. But worst case scenario is they gaslit him so badly that he genuinely felt like he was responsible for hundreds of people dying and for the rest of them being traumatized. Right. I cannot imagine living through four days of that. Sharks. No. No. being traumatized right i cannot imagine living through four days of that sharks no no the conviction basically ended captain mcveigh's career the sentence was eventually overturned like a year later but it didn't matter he was devastated and ashamed he had dedicated his life to the navy and they'd screwed him over yeah He retired from the Navy a few years later in 1949. With a terrible reputation, I'm sure. So that's the interesting thing. A lot of people believed

that he had been wronged. He should have never been blamed for what happened. He should have never been court-martialed. Definitely shouldn't have been convicted. But obviously not everyone felt that way. Hundreds of men had died, which meant that thousands of family members and friends were grieving. Some of them directed their anger at him. They'd call him up. They'd harass him. One Christmas, he received a letter that read, Merry Christmas.

Our family's holiday would be a lot merrier if you hadn't killed my son. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Which, you know, these families, they're not getting the full story. No, exactly. And it's much easier to blame one person than to see this as an issue where things went wrong at every level. Yeah. Cool. Two beverages at every level. Yeah. Cool.

Two beverages at one time. I'm sorry. My coffee went cold, so then I had to wash it down with some water. Have you ever been there, friend, when you're getting a pedicure? Now I get an iced chai latte, so it's cold from the beginning. Oh, that sounds good. So good. Non-fat.

Last time I got one, not when I got my nails done, on the way to work the other day, they didn't put non-fat milk in it. It was so much better. No, I don't like it. Oh. It's too milky. I have been in situations where I ask for like sugar-free, non-fat, whatever. They accidentally make it the wrong way with all the good shit.

And I'm like, oh, this is what I'm missing out on. No, I think it's too milky with regular milk in it. All right. I'm making a note. So Captain McVeigh, I can't even imagine what his life was like. No. You work your ass off for this career. You're really good at it.

And then you get treated this way. And then you become like the enemy of all these grieving family members and friends it got so bad that in 1968 when charles mcveigh was 70 years old he walked out onto his front lawn with a toy sailor in one hand and a gun in the other no he died by suicide oh yeah that's terrible i believe that his wife had recently died of cancer and you know i think after all that bullshit he just i just i can't even imagine how much of an effect that would have on your life when something you had dedicated your entire career to, your entire life to, you'd sacrificed so much for. Your dad had done the same thing. Put your life on the line for and completely turns its back on you and intentionally screws you over.

And he didn't even know how intentionally. how intentionally. So the survivors of the Indianapolis were obviously grieving over this, and they really wanted to just clear their captain's name because they knew he did not deserve this. But they struggled to capture the public's attention. And you know, the Navy wasn't going to admit to anything. But in the 90s, documents became declassified, and people learn more and more about the injustice of this case. I've already mentioned some of it, but I'm going to tell you a little bit more. When Captain McVeigh asked for the destroyer escort, the Navy knew that he was going into waters where Japanese submarines were present. Wow. By that point, they'd broken the Japanese code. So they literally knew that the submarine that would eventually take down the Indianapolis was out there. Wow. And they denied his request for a destroyer escort. They didn't warn him. Wow. Nothing.

Nothing. The Navy had deemed that information classified, so they didn't tell the court marshal board about that, and they didn't share it with Captain McVeigh's defense. Of course they didn't. Here's another fact that they kept from Captain McVeigh. Six days before the Indianapolis was sunk, another U.S. ship in those same waters was taken down by a Japanese submarine. Again, the Navy knew about this, did not tell Captain McVeigh. Once again, that information was classified, so it couldn't be shared.

Yeah. Pretty fucking convenient, right? Oh, yeah, it's classified. You just classify anything that makes you look bad. Uh-huh. Did I cheat on you? That's classified. That's bad information.

Did I murder that guy? Classified. Classified. Love to tell you, you don't have a high enough clearance. Yes, you don't have security clearance for that type of information. But again, the survivors, Charles McVeigh's son, other people had always known in their gut that this conviction was wrong. And these declassified documents proved it. But what could they do? They tried to get attention for their cause, but it was really tough. But Brandy, that all changed in 1996 when an 11 year old boy named Hunter Scott watched a little movie called Jaws.

Yeah. So in Jaws, an actor talks about hating sharks and he talks about surviving shark. I mean, I don't remember this at all, but you obviously remember. I obviously remember it. Yes. So do you want to talk about it a little bit? No, you can. I mean, that all I've got is that he talks about. Oh, yeah. He tells the story of it. And I mean, I always knew that it was a true story, but I know only I only knew what he talks about in Jaws. And it's been so long since I've seen it. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Hunter was enthralled by that story. And when he found out that it was a true story, he had to know more. So he did a little history

project. He got an award for it. But he decided that wasn't enough. So he tracked down the addresses of all the Indianapolis survivors. He sent them a survey. Some of the questions he asked were, do you think Captain McVeigh's court-martial was justified? Was the conviction fair? The answers were unanimous. No. No. No. It had not been fair. It had not been justified at all. So Hunter decided to clear Charles McVeigh's name. Wow. So this is interesting. Because Hunter was so young and so passionate, the media kind of loved him. And they did stories about him.

And he got more attention than, like, you know, just these older guys who were all rallying around this cause. His local representative, Joe Scarborough, got involved. around this cause. His local representative, Joe Scarborough, got involved. And in April of 1998, Hunter and 15 of the survivors went to Washington. They begged members of the House and Senate to pass Joe Scarborough's bill that would clear Captain McVeigh's name. What do you got in your notes there, Kristen? I called him Joe McVeigh. Could have called him Timothy. What the hell is wrong with me?

How many times have I said this man's name? Like, are we on 2000 yet? I mean, it's every sentence. So here's the embarrassing part that they didn't realize. They did not realize that technically his name had been cleared in 1946. When it was overturned. Yes. Which I'm like, guys, that's a little embarrassing. But OK, OK.

So Joe Scarborough was like, just kidding about that old bill. Here's a new one. It's a joint resolution. And it basically said Captain McVeigh's conviction, was his name Joe? Was it Charles? Was it whatever? Was a miscarriage of justice.

Around this time, Captain Mochizura Hashimoto, who was now in his 80s, found out about the effort to clear Captain McVeigh's name. And he joined the fight. Wow. Yes. Yes. Okay. So this, this is the part that I said I would save for later. And look at me, remembering perfectly to bring it up now. He met with some of the survivors. Wow. And he talked about how, you know, at the time, he was obviously very scared to testify. Yeah. First of all, he had no choice.

And, you know, he said, you know, I was coming from the defeated country. Yeah. You know, I was the one who ordered it to, you know, we get the idea. Yeah, order the attack. Yeah. And he said that, he said that, you know, he didn't speak English fluently at that time, but everybody knows, like, you can usually understand a lot more of a language than you can speak. And so when he was testifying, obviously it was through a translator,

but he could tell that the translator wasn't saying everything that he said. The translator was holding stuff back. And he just felt like something fishy was going on. He wrote a letter to the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and I want to read part of it. I do not understand why Captain McVeigh was court-martialed. I do not understand why Captain McVeigh was court-martialed. I do not understand why he was convicted on the charge of hazarding his ship by failing to zigzag, because I would have been able to launch a successful torpedo attack against his ship,

whether it had been zigzagging or not. I have met many of your brave men who survived the sinking of the Indianapolis. I would like to join them in urging that your national legislature clear their captain's name. Our peoples have forgiven each other for that terrible war and its consequences. Perhaps it is time your peoples forgave Captain McVeigh for the humiliation of his unjust conviction. I just think that's amazing. Yeah. They held a hearing. It was a whole big thing. The Navy was not into it. I'm sure they weren't.

So under pressure from the Navy, they softened the language of the resolution. Instead of saying that the conviction was unjust and that the court-martial was morally unsustainable, as morally unsustainable, it was changed to say that Captain McVeigh's record should indicate that he is exonerated for the loss of the USS Indianapolis, which I think is just like, kiss my ass. This is why by the time something gets through all these levels of government, it is so watered down. In October of 2000, Congress passed that resolution and President Clinton signed it. Captain Hashimoto died at age 91, five days before the resolution passed.

Oh my gosh. Then in July of 2001, the Secretary of the Navy ordered Charles McVeigh's official record, purged of wrongdoing. Wow. And that's the story of the sinking of the USS Indianapolis Brandy what did you think of the history okay okay did you hate it a little bit I didn't I was fascinated I can't believe someone in our discord's grandfather survived this crazy when you heard the story did you know the jaws

connection only because i read like it comes up pretty early on because like this kid you know yeah i don't want to say well he's the reason a lot of attention was yeah and you know it's all because you watch jaws yeah that is nuts yeah good stuff happens when you watch Jaws. Yeah. That is nuts. Yeah. Good stuff happens when you watch movies, Kristen. Is that why my life sucks so bad? It's the moral of this story. I'm in a really good mood now. Why don't you take me down several thousand notches? Yeah. Yeah. Hold on. I've lost my story. I have no idea where it's at. Brandy, do you not have multiple tabs? I do, but I don't know where my story went. Do you not have multiple tabs? I do, but I don't know where my story went.

Okay, here it is. The problem was that I had too many tabs, Kristen. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Do you minimize like a bunch of different tabs? Yeah. Brandy, Brandy, hold on. Hold the phone. I'm coming over there.

What? Get out of here. What are you doing in Pages? What the hell is Pages? That's the Safari version. Safari? I'm sorry, that's the Mac out of here. What are you doing in Pages? What the hell is Pages? That's the Safari version. Safari? I'm sorry, that's the Mac version of Word. Get out of here.

Oh my gosh. It's a mess. Don't judge my MacBook. I've worked with MacBooks before. I never did Pages. What the fuck did you write in? That's what's on here to write in. Google Docs.

No, I don't do... Get out of here. I'm sorry, but i'm required to stay all right i have to say what are you doing i was making a face she's really loving this thrive lip bomb guys you guys i was trying to put it on in a really creepy way to creep brandy out did it work no okay we're gonna talk about some murder now great this case was sent to me um on facebook well it's actually sent to us on facebook and i stole it okay um so shout out to nani on facebook who sent this also nani i'd like to just

give you a heads up that your cousin bobby is super pissed at you because you had the nerve to send in this case recommendation first after she's the one who introduced you to this podcast. Oh, really? Yes. So Nani messaged us first and then Bobby was like, um, excuse me. Jerry, Jerry. But when Nani sent it in, she was like, Brandy, I'm looking directly at you with this case because there's a pseudo family annihilation that happens here. Pseudo? What the hell is that?

There is a Dr. Phil episode about this. And there is a Texas Monthly article about this. This is a brandy case if I've ever heard one. So, yeah. So thank you, Nani. Most of this info comes from all of those things I just said. From the Texas Monthly article by Pamela Koloff, an article for AOL News that I found on Murderpedia. Was this from 1996?

Right. So I found that article on Murderpedia and it's by David Lohr who writes articles for the Crime Library. So. All right. Definitely into that. And then also, of course, my boy, Dr. Phil. I also had to watch an episode of Killer Women on Netflix.

Had to? Is it not good? I've never... It's Piers Morgan, who I don't like. Oh, I hate him. I don't like him at all. F him. No.

Yes. Oh, how gross. So on top of... I like Dr. Phil. Yeah, I know. But I mean... Yeah, I watched Dr. Phil and I watched Piers Morgan, who I'm not a fan of. What do you not like about him?

I don't even really know what I don't like fan of. What do you not like about him? I don't even really know what I don't like about him. I just don't like him. He's smug as hell. He's very smug. And I'm not sure why. Which typically that doesn't bother me. I know you love a smug white guy. That typically doesn't bother me, but I do not like Piers Morgan.

You definitely have a type. In politicians, you love a skinny white boy with brown hair. There I said it. I miss you already, Pete. You were all for Beto i was i was in for beto and then i was in for pete yeah now we're out of i mean biden or bust right i guess so i mean we're recording this ahead of time but right now it's looking like biden and he's no boy do you like my uh meme i sent you today kristin i liked a lot of the memes you've sent me said get in boomer we're going to

lose the election oh i can't even joke about that okay hang on i'm going to type this into the correct discord this okay and ask for questions yeah for questions. Yeah. And our discord. In our discord, not Norman's discord. Very good. It's a new thing I'm doing where I don't piss off Norman's people. Okay. Did it. Boom. In the correct discord and everything. Excellent. I'm so proud of you. Thank you. Me too. Okay. The sound was deafening. At first, Terry Caffey wasn't sure what was going on. He was abruptly woken from his deep sleep by what he would later describe as the loudest sound he'd ever heard. As he tried to rouse himself from his sleep state, he slowly came to realize what was going on around him. Two men had just busted into his bedroom, armed with guns and a sword, and started firing.

Yes, a sword. Like a samurai sword. Yes. Terry watched as they shot his wife, Penny, lying in the bed next to him. They shot her twice in the head. Then the one with the sword came closer and stabbed her through the neck,

nearly decapitating her. Oh my God. Terry realized at that point that he'd been shot too. That was the sound that woke him up. Holy shit. Was him self being shot. He was shot in the face. Oh my god. But the gunmen were not done with him. Again, they turned towards Terry and they fired more shots at him. Terry didn't know how many times he'd been shot. Five, seven, eleven. He couldn't be sure. The blood poured out ofry as he fought to remain

conscious the gunman left the bedroom and moments later terry heard the cries of his sons 13 year old tyler and eight year old matthew he struggled to rise from the bed and run to help them but he collapsed onto the floor he'd lost too much blood he He couldn't get up. He heard his son's cries, and then he blacked out. When he came to, who knows how long later, the house was silent, but filled with smoke. He soon realized that he was still in his bedroom on the floor. The master bedroom of this house was on the ground level. He realized the house was on fire. It didn't take long. He crawled over and checked Penny. Penny was very clearly dead. And he knew he needed to get help. He couldn't hear his sons anymore. He needed to get out of

this house if there was any hope of rescuing them. So he tried to make it towards the door. There was fire right outside the bedroom. And so he ended up having to climb across Penny's body on the bed and climb out the bedroom window. Later, we'll find out that he had been shot five times. He'd been hit five times. Once in the face, twice in the back. I don't know where the other ones were.

How was he able to move at all? No kidding, right? Holy. I don't know where the other ones were. How was he able to move at all? No kidding, right? Holy. And so he is fighting to get to the nearest neighbor's house. They live in a little town outside of Tyler, Texas. It's very rural. They live on a big piece of property. The nearest neighbor is 500 yards away.

And so he just starts walking and crawling when he has to, just trying to make it to the next door neighbor's house. At one point, he falls into a creek and nearly drowns. Oh, my God. He has no idea how long the journey takes him, but he eventually makes it to the next door neighbor's house and rings the doorbell, gets them to open the door. It is the early morning hours of March 1st, 2008.

The neighbor doesn't even recognize him initially because he's so covered in blood. It's chilly out, but he's wearing his pajamas. He's got like shorts and a T-shirt on. Oh, my God. And he just collapses on this guy's like floor when he gets into the house. And he tells the neighbors that they need to call the police, that something has happened at the house, and that the house is on fire. Yeah. So the neighbor calls the police, a call comes into 911, and they immediately dispatch crews. But again, this is out in the middle of nowhere, like 30

minutes from the big town of Tyler. They do have like a smaller county emergency crews and stuff that they can send out. And so they send that out and police, you know, are sent to the area, but it takes some time to get there. By the time that they arrive at the Caffey home, which everybody knows who they are, this is a very small area, like everybody knows everybody. By the time the deputies arrive at the Caffey home, it's completely engulfed in flames. An ambulance comes to the neighbor's house. They get Terry loaded up. And he's sitting in the back there.

And he calls in, like, the sheriff's deputy or whatever. And he says, I'm not going to make it. And so the sheriff's deputy, like like climbs into the ambulance with him and he just wants to get whatever information he can from him before he dies wow and he says everybody's dead this is what terry tells this deputy everybody's dead charlie wilkinson killed my entire family who the hell is charlie who the hell is charliekinson? Well, of course, as I've said, this is a small town. The deputy immediately knows who Charlie Wilkinson is. Charlie Wilkinson is this 19-year-old kid who had been dating the Caffey's 16-year-old daughter, Erin. And so they're like dispatching crews to try and find Charlie Wilkinson as quickly as possible.

In the meantime... Was the daughter in the home that night? So they don't know what's going... Yes, she was there that night when everybody went to bed, but they don't know what the situation is in the home yet because they have not been able to get in

because the fire is burning so big. Yeah. When they are able to extinguish the flames and examine the scene in the rubble, they find the two boys dead and the mother dead. But Erin is nowhere to be found, the 16-year-old daughter. So deputies, police, whatever, they're sent out looking for Charlie Wilkinson. Terry is taken

off to the hospital in Tyler. They take him to the big town to get the good medical care, whatever. They end up with police looking for just Charlie Wilkinson. They end up at this place that he's known to crash sometimes. It's like this little trailer. It's kind of a party house. It's like a friend of his brother that owns it. And so they go there and they knock on the door and the guy lets him in. And he's like, hey, is Charlie Wilkinson here? And he's like, I don't I don't know. He's like, I don't know if he spent the night here or not okay this is a house that i have no familiarity with the idea that someone is someone in your home it's a tiny trailer how do you not know and so he's like come in look around and by now like the sun's come up it's you

know whatever and so one of these deputies is going in he's looking through this trailer and he opens one room and there's a guy and a girl laying in there and they find that that's this guy charles wade who's a friend of charlie wilkins what do you think this place smelled like oh they said there's trash everywhere beer bottles everywhere just like a place where it's i have no idea who's in who's in here that place smells like shit and yes yeah so then they go into another room that just has like a towel hanging over the doorway. Sure. And there is Charlie Wilkinson in the bed. He's laying in a mattress on the floor. This room has

shit piled up everywhere. I did see a picture of this room and there's literally just piles of junk everywhere in this room. Was it a nice towel? I didn't see the towel. You have nice towels. I'll say that. Thank you. And so this deputy goes in and he says, hey, it's Kurt. Like, this is how small this town is. He's like, hey, Charlie, it's Kurt. Wake up. And so Charlie like wakes up and he's like, what's going on? And at this point, this deputy looks and

sees that there's a gun on the floor next to Charlie. And he's like, Charlie, I want you to stand up. I want you to show me your hands the entire time. Yeah. And Charlie's like asleep and confused. And he's like, what? And he's like, stand up. Don't reach for anything. I need to talk to you. And so Charlie does. He follows his instructions.

He gets up. They take him out. They take him into custody. And they take the friend and his girlfriend that are sleeping in the other room into custody. And then they start talking to them about if they know anything about what went on at the Caffey's house that night. And at first they're like, what? Huh? What?

The cat? What? And then it kind of comes out that, yeah, they all know what happened at the Caffey house that night. They were all present. And so at that point, they're like, OK, we got to separate you all. So we can't have you guys having any time to get your story straight and where the fuck is erin caffey yeah because she is still missing at this point so they take them and separate them put them in interrogation rooms get them ready to question meanwhile they go back through this trailer and they're looking for

evidence they know that there's a gun there what else else do we have? We know a gun was used at the Caffey home during that attack. What do we have as far as evidence? And so this same deputy is looking through that room. He's picking up shell casings. He picks up like a piece of clothing and like a used condom falls out onto the ground. Oh no. And then he sees in the corner where all this stuff is piled up. He sees what he thinks is a blonde wig. corner where all this stuff is piled up he sees what he thinks is a blonde wig and so he's like pulling stuff off and he grabs that blonde wig oh no only it's not a blonde wig it's blonde hair and it's attached to aaron kathy oh she's like sitting hidden in the corner oh i'm i thought it was her dead body no no she's alive oh and he like, she's sitting there kind of dazed just with her back to the wall. And he's like, who are you?

What's your name? And she tells him that her name's Erin Caffey. And Erin was this very small, like very petite girl, like four foot eleven. Oh, my God. And she's 16 years old. Same. Yeah, same. And he's like, you're Erin Caffey.

And she's like, yes, I'm Erin Caffey. And he's like, you're Erin Caffey. And she's like, yes, I'm Erin Caffey. And he's like, how did you get here? And she's like, very groggy. And she said, I don't know. I think I've been drugged. Wow. And so they're like, OK, absolutely. So they take her and they separate her from the other three.

So they've got the three down at the station that they're going to interrogate. Got them all separated. So at the station, they've got this guy, Charlie Wilkinson, who was ID'd by Terry Caffey. They've got this other guy who's his friend and his name is Charles Wade. And then they've got this other girl, Bobby Johnson, who's Charles Wade's girlfriend. So the three of them, separate interrogation rooms, waiting to get their stories about what happened. Right. They take Erin and they get her to her grandparents and her grandparents are going to take her

with a police escort to the hospital to see her dad because at this point they still don't know if he's going to survive. Right. And so they're like, we'll take care of this and then we'll get her statement, figure out what happened at the house. We've got to let her see her dad. Her whole family has died. Who knows what she's been through. On their drive to the hospital, they're getting this police escort. News comes into the police that they've started interrogating these three other people. And that Aaron is not a victim.

people and that Aaron is not a victim Aaron was the mastermind behind this entire plan really yes so they make the police pull over the grandparents car and take her into custody at that moment on their way to see her dad at the hospital oh no, no. Her grandparents are furious. They're like, what is going on? Like, there's no way she had anything to do with this. And they're like, we're just, you know, yeah, we're just going on orders here, ma'am. I don't know what to tell you. And those deputies that are taking her into custody are given very strict instructions at that time to smell her clothing and see if it smells like smoke. Oh. Because in the brief statement that she gave before they sent her to go see her parents,

what she said was that she was at home that night, like normal. She woke up in a house full of smoke and then was given something to drink by two men with guns and swords and then woke up in that trailer and didn't know where she was. But when the police started interrogating the three other people they had taken into custody that day, that story very quickly fell apart. So how did Aaron know Charlie Wilkinson? So he's 19 years old. She's 16 years old. To learn this, we'll back up and learn a

little bit more about the Caffey family. Okay. So Caffey family was like, if you look up wholesome family in the dictionary. Well, I don't know what you've recently told me doesn't sound so wholesome. Picture them right next to it. They were super religious, very involved in their church. They all sang or played in the band. The mother drove the car for Meals on Wheels. Like, they spent three days a week minimum at their church. Mm-hmm. Hours at a time. They, in fact, moved to this...

Hours at a time. Yes. Now, they weren't there for five minutes, Kristen. I was going to say, Brandiy anyone who went to church regularly knows you don't show up for like half an hour in fact they moved to this small town purely to be closer to this church that they went to they had previously driven like an hour to church every time they went there and so they moved to this small town to be closer to the church you know it just has a christian church i don't know okay And so when they moved to this town,

they'd enrolled at the public school there and an incident had happened with Erin. A girl had made some kind of pass at her in the hall one day, had maybe attempted to kiss her. And when Erin told her parents about this, they were scandalized,-huh furious that this could happen in a school did this really happen who knows if it really happened but it really made

them pull all of their kids out of school and homeschool them oh good god yes so the children were homeschooled by penny and imagine oh i shouldn. You want to keep that to yourself? Well, imagine having parents who were that easy to manipulate. You don't like going to public school or you don't like going to school. So all you have to do is say that a girl flirted with you, tried to kiss you. It's interesting that that's your take right away so i'll tell you that dr phil says that aaron cafferty or aaron calf oh my gosh aaron caffey taking a page out of my book no kidding messing up the names aaron caffey is the best liar he's ever met hmm yeah hmm yeah seems like me and my good friend dr phil are on the same page too

this incident happens or doesn't happen either way i just i don't buy that a girl just tries to kiss her in the i don't either some homophobic bullshit absolutely came up to me and tried to kiss me yeah bullshit yeah i totally agree anyway it results in all the kids getting pulled out of school. They get homeschooled. By the time that Erin is 16, she's like dying for some freedom. So she talks her parents into letting her get a job and she gets a job at the Sonic in town. She becomes a car hop.

She is the only car hop that works that Sonic that delivers all of her meals on wheels. She roller skates. And she is very popular with the customers because in a tiny town like this, like that is the hangout. Well, and I got to say, it is pretty impressive when someone does their meals on skates. It is. It is impressive. So there's a Sonic near where i live if i did that the shakes would be flying oh absolutely at the sonic kind of by where i live there used to be a girl that

would always wear skates and i always thought that was so impressive so we've got this little tiny cute blonde yeah working as a car hop roller skating she became very very popular and this was her only real connection to the outside world. Sure. This is where she met guys. This is where she met anyone. And she used to tell the people that she worked with, like, oh, he asked for my number. And she'd get really excited, but she would never give anyone her number. So she, at this point, is 16 years old and living a very sheltered life. At one one point she meets this boy at church and they start dating and then one day at church like they sneak out and they're caught making out on a bench

outside the church and her parents like lose their minds not okay force them to break up that always works really well um and a short time after that is when she met charlie wilkinson oh so they really did break them so they really did break them up. They really did break them up. And then she met Charlie Wilkinson at Sonic. And they immediately connected. Like, it was the first time she'd ever given her number to a boy that asked for it at Sonic. He started coming, like, multiple times a day when she was working, hanging out for hours,

just so she could come over and talk to him between orders and stuff like that. And so he could see her more often, he started going to their church. And this kind of became her way to try and like introduce him to her parents as like, oh, here's this nice boy that goes to our church that I'm going to start dating. And oh, look, he loves hot dogs. And corn dogs. 16 and 19. What do you think about that?

Not great. But boy, she seems super manipulative. So maybe they're evenly matched. I don't know. So he starts being allowed to come over like once a week for a family dinner and stuff like that. But she's seeing him anytime she can sneak away from the house. She's seeing him at work all the time. They're making out in his car constantly.

My God. The scandal. Eventually, she manages to convince her parents that she needs to go back to public school. I don't know how she convinces them, but somehow she does. And she gets them to allow her to enroll in public school at the high school with what will be Charlie's senior year. And she will be a freshman. I thought he was 19. He's like 18 or 19 when this happens.

OK, OK, OK. He's 19 when the crime occurs. OK. But at the time that she enrolls in school he is a senior and she will have to enroll as a freshman because she has been homeschooled so she's a little bit behind whatever yeah and yeah i'm not liking this age gap and so now every day at school they get to be together and they cut class all the time and go you know know, sit in his, her parents buy her a truck like to get to and from school. And so she's got a car now. They skip class, they make out in her car, whatever.

Things are going pretty well. The family likes him. He comes over, he plays with her brothers, you know. And then one day, Penny notices that Aaron has a ring on her finger. She said, what is this? It's a promise ring that Charlie has given her. And she explains that to her mother. And she says, absolutely not. You are far too young to be promising yourself to anyone. But I thought that was kind of the point of a promise ring was you do it because you're too young. Yeah.

Yeah. But she is infuriated by it and so is terry aaron's dad and aaron rather than or i'm sorry and terry rather than talking to aaron about it goes directly to charlie and is like you gave my 16 year old daughter a ring you think you're gonna spend the rest of your life with my 16 year old daughter you're sorely mistaken you're not welcome in my house anymore tells him you can't come over anymore and basically they tell aaron that she is limited to like seeing him for two hours a week once a week and that's it she's not allowed to see him any more than that and she's like okay fine

great i'm your good little girl still excellent a little bit of time goes by and someone clues Penny in on some information that's been posted on Charlie's MySpace page. So it's 2008. And so she drives to the library to pull up his MySpace page. Do they not have a computer? Apparently not. Okay. And she is horrified to find out that there's all of these posts on his MySpace page about how they are drinking and engaging in sexual activity. And Aaron is specifically mentioned in these posts.

Does it say we are engaging in sexual? Engaging in sexual intercourse. No, that's as specific as the articles get, though. So I don't know. They were banging. I don't know if they were doing anal. I can't tell you, Kristen. Ew, Brandy, my God.

You wanted more specifics. I don't have them. I was making fun of the know if they were doing anal. I can't tell you. Brandy, my God. You wanted more specifics. I don't have them. I was making fun of the language because you're saying it's on a MySpace page. I don't think it was like. Hey, this weekend we engaged in some wild sexual intercourse. Do you remember being asked, are you sexually active? Yes. It was just like the worst question you could ever be asked.

And a weird one, a confusing one. Oh, my God. Memories. Good times. worst question you could ever be a weird one a confusing one oh my god memories good times i have a story i don't know if i should tell i have one too what's your story and we'll see if we should cut it okay so my sister kim got pregnant when she was 18 my and had my nephew who's amazing and when we found out she was pregnant my mom called me and she said, are you having sex? And I said, not right this minute. Brandy, you smart ass. She didn't appreciate it. Okay, so my story was when I was like late high school.

Oh, God, I can't tell this story. Really? I was late high school. I went to the doctor. They asked me if I'd had sex. I said yes. And the follow-up question was, are you active? What does that mean?

I said no, because it sounded bad. I've hung up my cleats are you active it sounded like you know we'll see if that's how my parents find out anyway she is infuriated to find out that Aaron is engaging in sexual activity. Yeah. And drinking and who knows what else. And obviously sneaking out and seeing Charlie way more than they think she is.

Right. And so that night, Terry and Penny sit Aaron down and they're like, this is it. You're done with him. You cannot see him anymore. And Aaron's reaction is different than what i would have expected she said oh my gosh thank you guys i've been looking for a way to end it with tough and so they're like great moving forward yeah everything's great okay on the one hand i'm sitting here thinking if your kid starts

dating someone you hate you know probably the worst thing you can do is try to break them up. Because it'll, I mean, we'll just draw them closer together. That will never work. But at the same time, I'm trying to put myself in their shoes. And yeah, what do you do

when you hate the person that your kid is dating and you know that they're bad for them? Yeah. I don't know. So this incident where they sat her down and you're like you're not seeing him anymore and she's like oh my god guys thank you so much it's two weeks before the murders she's smart she's so pierce morgan says that she is the most evil woman he's ever met okay come on she sounds i mean assuming that I'm right in what I'm thinking right now,

she sounds highly manipulative. And it sounds like she had her parents figured out so well. Yeah, she knew exactly what to say to her parents. Because, yeah, she didn't want to have the big argument of, no, I'm going to do what I want, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just, oh, thank goodness. Okay, thanks, guys. Appreciate you.

Yep. So in the next couple of weeks, Aaron continues to talk to Charlie. And she's like, we have to figure out a way to be together. And he's like, just run away. Just run away with me. And she's like, no, that won't do. We have to kill them. Oh, my God.

And he's like, do we? What if we just run away together yeah she's like no that won't work but charlie's like it might work and she's like absolutely not they have to be dead and he's like okay and she's like do you think you can do it oh and he's like i'll i mean i'll do anything to be with you i you. And so they start planning this whole thing that's going to go down. He's going to get his friend. They're going to break into the house. They're going to kill our parents. And then he's like, well, and then we can just leave your brothers. And she's like, no, my brothers have to die, too. What? And he's like, but your parents are on the ground floor. We can just go into their bedroom, kill them and leave. And that would be it. And she's like, no, I don't want him to have to go into foster care or anything. So. Oh, wow. How nice. Yeah. How nice for her to look out.

So these are the conversations that they're having like over these two weeks. This is so sick. And by his own account, I will tell you that this is his own account. This is Charlie Wilkinson's account. Sure. He like is trying to come up with alternative modes that they could, you know. Give me a fucking break. He says, what if I just got you pregnant? If I just got you pregnant, they'd have to let us be together.

And Aaron. Yeah. These are the rules of conservative Christianity. And Aaron's response to that was like, I'm not ready to have a kid. Ready to kill my parents. Yeah. Not ready to have a kid. Yeah. Save that for when I'm 19. Yes. And so they plan the night. And on that night, Aaron's supposed to go to bed just like normal. And then they're supposed to roll up to her house somewhere around 1am. This girl This girl, Bobby, is going to drive the getaway car. She's going to sit in the car. How did, how were three people involved in this? Right? This is nuts. Yes. So these three people are going to come. Charlie, his buddy Charlie, and then Bobby. Bobby's going

to sit in the car while the two Charlies go in the house, do the killing, bang, bang, boom, boom, slice, slice. Oh my God. And then Aaron is going to leave with them. Aaron's supposed to come out of the house when they get there and wait in the car with Bobby. So on the night that they had this all planned out for, they pull up to the house and Kathy's dog is outside and he's barking like crazy. And so Charlie drives off. Yeah. And Aaron calls him. He's like, what's going on going on like why aren't you here

he's like your dog's losing his fucking mind like it's gonna wake somebody up yeah and he's like we're not doing it it's off and she's like no please come back come back she calls him like seven times begging him to come back and go through with the plan. What the hell? Phone records back this up. This is like the most damning evidence against her. Yeah. Because this is the story that all three of them told independently. Yeah. And then they have phone records to back it up.

Yeah. Finally, they come back. Erin like puts the dog somewhere and they pick her up and they leave. I'm kind of surprised they didn't kill the dog somewhere, and they pick her up, and they leave. I'm kind of surprised they didn't kill the dog. I know. Huh. So they pick her up, and they leave, and Charlie's like, I don't think we should do this. I think that it's not right.

Like, this obviously isn't the right time. Things aren't going right already. And Aaron's like, yeah, that's the reason you don't commit a quadruple homicide. Just the timing's bad. Yeah. And by the accounts of the three people who were in the car that night, Aaron's like, no, it has to happen tonight. We have to kill my parents tonight.

You have to do it. And so they go back to the house. The two guys go in. They go into the parents' bedroom first, shoot and kill them. And then when they come out of the bedroom, the two younger boys have been awoken by the sounds of gunshots. And they're standing like at the top of the stairs. And Charles Wade, the friend, shoots and kills the, I believe it was the younger one, immediately. Yeah.

And then the other one runs and hides in a closet. Oh, God. And then the two of them, Charles and Charlie, take turns stabbing him to death with the samurai sword. What the hell? Yeah. And then after everybody in the house is dead, they take these Bic lighters that they stopped and bought at the gas station and start setting fire to all the furniture in the house so that it will burn quickly. Yeah. And they leave.

They get in the car where Aaron and Bobby have been waiting, and they drive. And they drive around for a little while. And then they go back to that trailer. And they all go to sleep until they're awoken by deputies the next morning. That's unreal. So this story all comes out from those three accomplices while Aaron is on the way to the hospital. Right. To see her parents.

And so they see her dad, they pull over. They take her into custody. And she's like, what's going on? And they're like, you've been implicated in this. She starts crying. And she's like, I didn't have anything to do with this. What? I've been drugged.

All of this stuff. And so they take her in. And they get a full talk screen run on her to see what she has in her system. And then they take her clothing that she had on tested to see if there's any signs of smoke on it nothing there's nothing in her system and her clothes have no sign that they've been exposed to smoke in any way so her version yeah is clearly bullshit yeah when the police show up at the hospital with what was supposed to be aaron terry's very confused he's like where's aaron have you guys found aaron i thought aaron was coming

and they're like this is all recorded this is on that the audio of this is on the piers morgan show that i watched killer women oh no and they're like we have Aaron. And he's like, OK. And he can tell that something's up. And so he says, what's her involvement in this? And there's this long pause. The fact that he asked that. And the deputy goes, at this point, all that we know is that she was very involved. And Terry just like, he just sobs yeah horrible so terry learns all of this that this was all a plot and that these three are saying

it was completely aaron's idea she was the mastermind behind it he doesn't believe it who could blame him exactly exactly. Exactly. He's dealing with the death of his entire family. And it was caused by his daughter. No, you wouldn't want to go into this horrible depression. He plans his own suicide. Yeah, he makes this plan that he's going to go out to the property where the house was. He's lost everything. He had this great house and his family, everything, literally all of his belongings burned to the ground, the house was. He's lost everything. He had this great house and this family. Everything, literally all of his belongings burned to the ground. The house burned entirely to the ground

because of the way that they set it on fire and how long it burned. And so he had this whole plan how he's going to go out there and he was going to shoot himself and take his own life right there where the rest of his family died. And he got there and he was like

kicking around the rubble and stuff. And he found this page from a book that was like sitting there like inside something. So it wasn't totally burned. And there was this passage on it that just spoke to him. And he couldn't believe it he picked it up and he read it and it said i couldn't understand why you would take my family and leave me behind to struggle along without them i may never totally understand that part of it but i do know that you are sovereign you are in control that's what's on this piece of paper wow it's a page from a book the book is

called blind sight and it is a novel that was written about a man who loses his wife and two children in a car accident and then has to learn how to holy shit without that it was written by this guy that was like a family friend and his name was jim pence and he had given a cop like a signed copy right penny right and like terry'd never thought anything of it he'd never read it and then just to pull like that piece with that passage out of like the rubble of your house he said at that moment he was like i knew that it was not an accident that i was still alive and that i couldn't take my own life i couldn't i had to like there's obviously a story that I have to share with people.

Yeah. So despite that, like, he still was battling with depression and all of that. And he was really angry. He was really, really angry initially at Charlie and Charles and Bobby that they had let this happen. And he didn't for a second believe that Aaron had anything to do with it. He believed that she had been completely brainwashed and that her version, that she'd been drugged and all of that was the was the truth. Sure. And he carried that around for quite a while. And he did interviews where he said that he wanted them to get the death penalty. And all he wanted was for Aaron to get free. And he went and visited

Aaron all of the time in custody while she was awaiting charges and trial and all of that. I don't know at what point he decided to believe the facts rather than Aaron's version. And to this day, I don't think he totally sees it the way it actually happened. I think it would be really difficult to it. You would it would just be almost like a self preservation thing. Yeah, I agree. I agree to see it somewhere in between. Yeah. But at some point, the prosecutor sat down with him and showed him the facts in the case. Yeah. And showed him the phone records and showed him all of this. And his opinion changed a little bit. After that meeting, he wrote a letter to the prosecutor and asked them not to seek the death penalty in the cases against Charlie and Charles. He said he wanted them to have time to come to a point where they felt remorse and that they could repent.

And he wanted them to serve life in prison. And this is in Texas. This is a very, very pro-death penalty. And this prosecutor who was assigned to this case had in her career has done like 12 death penalty cases or something. So it was like no big deal to her to seek the death penalty against these guys um erin was not eligible for the death penalty she was tried as an adult like they were moving forward with her trial she had been certified as an adult to stand trial as an adult even though she was 16 years old but this is actually surprised me

about texas you cannot get the death penalty if you are still legally under adult age. Well, thank God. There's no kidding. So she was not facing the death penalty. But the two men who did the actual shooting were. Yeah. And then Bobby was being charged with being an accessory to murder and murder as well, even though she never went into the house.

She knew exactly what was going on inside. She did nothing to stop it. She drove the getaway car. Yeah, absolutely. And by card, I mean car. Yes. So trial was scheduled to begin like, it was like a couple weeks away when the prosecutor got this letter from Terry Caffey, and she decided that she would honor his wishes. Yeah. And she offered deals to everybody involved. And she offered deals to everybody involved.

So Charles Wade and Charlie Wilkinson were both given deals. If they would plead guilty to first degree murder, they would get life in prison without the possibility of parole. And they both took that deal. They took that deal in October of 2008. So this didn't take that long. No, it really didn't. They really did it pretty fast. Bobby Johnson was given a 40- year sentence. She was given two 40 year sentences for crimes where they were to run concurrent. So she will be eligible

for parole after 20 years. And Aaron was also given two consecutive life sentences as the mastermind in this case. Plus 25 years. I don't know what the additional 25 years is. I'm guessing it's for the arson charge. But the specifics of this make sure that those life sentences run concurrently, not consecutively, and that she is eligible for parole. That was like the thing that Terry asked for in this case, that she does become eligible for parole. She will be eligible for parole after 42 years of her sentence. She'll be 58, 59 years old. Wow. Yeah. In her interviews with Dr. Phil and Piers Morgan, the interview with Piers Morgan is the most recent interview I can find with her. She still does not take any responsibility for what happened.

That's why he says she's the most evil woman he's ever met, because she's still playing this role of a victim, this I didn't really know what was going on. I, you know, I thought I was in love. And what do you think? I think she I think that she is super manipulative and learned how to control people at a very young age. Yeah. And I honestly don't know what would make her think that she needed her parents dead. They weren't. At some point, she tried to tell people that they were abusing her. That was how she initially got Charlie to go along with the plan.

They hit me and all this stuff. Yeah. But then at some point he was like, I don't see this. Like, I don't see bruises on you. I don't see any of that. And she wouldn't talk about it anymore after that. Uh-huh. So she learned very quickly how to manipulate people

and what works and what doesn't work. Yeah. I think she's extremely manipulative. She uses her meek appearance and her small stature to her advantage. And she kind of just like withdraws into herself and balls up like a child when she's faced with something hard or having to admit something. Yeah. So Dr. Phil asks her in his segment with her, like, do you get that you could have stopped this entire thing? Like this would not have happened had you not

continued to press it right and she said i mean i yeah you i could see how you could see it that way yeah she takes no responsibility for it at all yeah dr phil shows her the pictures of her father's injuries the where he was shot like shows her the actual bullet wounds on his body which she said she'd never seen before and she's like look away and cover her face and i think she's just and it might be a denial to try and protect herself even i don't really know i don't know what her motivation is i think it's they were doing nothing to her that would what's the motive of any of these family annihilators yeah Yeah, exactly. There's no like, oh, so that's why they did it.

I get it. You know, it's always some weird, ridiculous thing. Yeah. I read an article that there was an interview with her therapist that saw her when she was in first in custody. And he saw her several times and they were kind of just trying to determine what her mental state was, whatever. And he said every time he left her cell after speaking with her, he cried. He felt so terrible for this girl who had just been brainwashed and all of this stuff. Really?

Yeah. So he had like several sessions with her before he ever saw the case file. Uh-huh. And then he saw the case file and he was like holy shit i've been completely manipulated wow i thought that this was someone who like the system was about to swallow up and like this innocent girl who'd been drawn into something she didn't know what she was doing and then he saw the case file and he was like she's the fucking ringleader yeah he said he couldn't believe how easily she had manipulated him hmm yeah i think she's a very dangerous person

would you join her cult uh i would not join her cult wow um so the texas monthly article ends with a little interview with charlie wilkinson after he's been in prison and sentenced and everything. And they tell him that when all of this stuff came out, that this other boyfriend, the boyfriend that she got caught with at church, making out with, that they forced her to break up with, he came forward and said that she had also asked him to murder her parents. You're kidding me. No. And they said, how does that make you feel and he said it changes everything i thought that this was something that she was asking me to do because

we were in love and we were supposed to be together and whatever and now it makes me feel like i was just some pawn in some game to her to try and get what she wanted um that's an interesting take yeah well obviously he was a pawn but like someone approaches you about murdering their parents and you think oh this is because we're in love yeah they asked him in that interview if he still loved her and he said after a moment of like thinking about it once you love somebody you can't quit you always will. That's not true. I don't agree with that at all.

But I think maybe that speaks to how manipulated he was by her. Well, and if you, if you admit to yourself, I was manipulated. I'm not in love with this person. Then you have to face the fact that like I murdered four people for no reason for no reason yeah oh yep so that's the story of aaron kaffee who i think is fucking terrifying that is terrible let me google her yeah look her up aaron kaffee Kathy. Okay. Oh, gosh. Yeah, she's just a little thing. Yep. Didn't get the memo that eyebrows are back, though. Her father still visits her every month in prison. What else are you going to do? So well, exactly. And here's, he says that he does not believe the prosecution's version of events. He doesn't believe she was the mastermind. He believes that she probably had a bigger role in it than she admits.

Than what she's admitting, yeah. Yeah. But I think there's a part of him that questions even what he believes. Because in one of the interviews that I read or watched, I can't remember which one, but he says something to the effect of, you know, I finally got up the nerve to ask her some questions about it. First, he wouldn't ask her anything about the case initially. He wouldn't ask her about her involvement. He just couldn't.

Yeah. And at one point he asked her, were mom and I really that bad of parents? So that definitely shows that he does question how involved she was and what he really believes. I think you would. Yeah. He has remarried and he has, I think, a couple of stepchildren. He actually remarried really fast. Like how fast?

Like seven months after the murders. Oh, wow. Yeah. His friends and family say that he missed being a father and missed being needed by people. And that's how he dealt with that. And I think that people deal with all that stuff in all kinds of different ways. So yeah. Yeah. Well, Brandy, that was terrible. I know. Thank you to Nani and your pissed off cousin. Nani and Bobby.

Brandy, we've got some questions. Did you do it right this time? I sure did. Very good. Let me check. Okay, this is rude. The first question comes from Maggie Mae. Does it feel good to ask the right Discord for questions?

Yes, it does. So let's take a moment. For those of you who are like, how do I get into this Discord? Well, for just $5 a month, you can sign up for our Patreon where you will get bonus episodes and access to the Discord where you can come in, chat with everybody, ask questions when we do our episodes. And then for $7 a month, that's a Supreme Court level. That's where you get all the bonus episodes access to the discord plus a monthly video that are those are super fun and you get stickers our lovely autographs and you get inducted on this very podcast okay now for more questions yes

ooh jeepers asks toilet paper roll over or under oh i feel strongly and she says and there is a right answer over over yeah what kind of monster are you putting it under i i don't understand the under people yeah no put it under you have to touch the whole roll yeah yeah no insanity yeah absolutely not oh cory s asks if next week is your last episode, what cases would you each cover? Maybe I'd go out with a bang and finally do Jodi Arias. You would have to. I'd have to. I'd do the Clinton impeachment trial.

Ooh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You would hate that. You say, ooh, yeah. It's history. No, it's so you. I would hate it.

Yeah. But that's so you i would hate it yeah it's so you uh-huh and i'd be interested once you did it but that would that i could not research that case like that wouldn't interest me for three seconds to to research so fascinating to me have you ever done a case without violence yeah no name them yeah huh name them um i don't think you have i definitely have brandy i'm looking at our episode list right now completely violence completely violence free okay let's see what we got i did anna nicole smith is that violence free yes yeah i just gosh that was a long time ago it sure was was that like episode two yeah it was um all right let's see let's see

balloon boy violence free okay that was a good one violence violence definitely some violence there oh uh-huh runaway bride that was violence free that was another good one thank you let me jump up to some more recent ones so we have more than a hundred episodes and right now we've gotten three where you did non-violent cases that's right that might be all right weirdo. What are you saying, Kristen? I think it's funny.

We just have very different tastes and cases. The psychic one. Which psychic? The author where the psychic, you know, took all of her money. There's no violence in that one. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I mean, her son dies tragically, but it's not yeah that's not part of this thank you why are you proud of this what's you're good at percentages what's four out of

what is 112 less than four percent um jaylen c asks what are your thoughts on garter and bouquet tosses at weddings oh god oh i i get so uncomfortable i like them at all i don't like the garter toss at all it makes me so uncomfortable bouquet toss doesn't really bother me no i'm not bothered by it but i don't like the garter toss at all i think it's really weird i think it's super weird too let me take off a piece of your underwear and in front of your whole family. Yeah. And let me do it with my teeth. No. Yeah. Cause some couples get really sexual with it and it is it's like your, your Nana's sitting over there and we're all supposed to cheer. No, no, I don't like it. You know what else I don't really like at weddings? What? The dollar

dance. Yeah. I don't like it not a fan no why not i think it's kind of tacky okay yeah these people already brought you a gift like i don't know i think it's kind of tacky what else do i not you know i'm big on the food at weddings um okay anna faye asks you always joke about kristin's lack of film knowledge but what is your favorite film or favorite actor mine either of us oh you start my god i can't pick a favorite movie i have like a top 10 list um depending on my mood mary poppins i like mary poppins a lot uh you have a mary poppins tattoo i do have a mary poppins tattoo i guess i like it a lot it's one of my favorite movies but depending on my mood, I'd say different answers.

So Mary Poppins or I used to say Love Actually a lot. Rudy was my favorite movie when I was a kid. Loved Rudy. There's a lot of them. And that's not me saying mm-hmm to Rudy. It's me saying mm-hmm. You did like that as a kid. Yes, I did.

Yeah. I like A League of Their Own a lot. You know, I love Steel Magnolias. I used to have an answer for a favorite actor but he's i'm not allowed like he's not allowed to be anybody's favorite anymore i hope kevin spacey yeah that used to be my answer all the time i used to love kevin spacey yeah he fucked up yeah i can't so he's not allowed anymore um i'd say jason bateman's probably my favorite actor now i think he's hilarious he okay now he plays the same person in everything no but i love it yes he's the same amazing character and everything

okay okay and that's actually okay so he was on an episode of my favorite podcast with dac shepard brandy you have a podcast we have to be my favorite my podcast cannot be my favorite podcast support yourself and he's just like that in real life like yeah i love it okay okay you don't have a favorite it doesn't seem like very good acting if you know what kristen don't shit on my parade no i like jason bateman and i agree i like him in everything he's in but like if we're talking best actor it's's obviously Meryl Streep. Meh. What? Shut your mouth. What?

Meh, she's all right. Are you? You know who actually I think is an amazing actress who I wouldn't have even, didn't even come to my mind until you said that? Jennifer Aniston? No. Well, that's on the same level as Jason Bateman. No, it's not. Yeah, she plays the same character in every movie.

So does Jason Bateman. I was going to say Toni Collette. I think she's amazing. Oh, well, yeah, she's not. She plays the same character in every movie so does Jason. I was going to say Toni Collette. I think she's amazing. She's amazing. Amazing. Did you see Hereditary? Yes I did.

You know I did and it scared the pants off. Terrifying. But that scene had no pants. There's a scene. It's a spoiler. Well then don't spoil

it. Where she has to react very emotionally and it was heart wrenching. She's amazing. And it was heart-wrenching. She's amazing. I wonder if she's won an Oscar. She won an Oscar for anything? You're asking me?

Kristen! You're asking me? Let's see if Toni Collette's won an Oscar for anything. Oh, she's in Little Miss Sunshine. She's not won an Oscar. Travis is asking a political question do we have the nuts to answer it who are you voting for in the primaries whoo whoo so i apparently i'm a progressive i did not know this until recently uh--huh. Really? What'd you think you were? Well, so I always thought I was just a liberal Democrat.

But then over the years, it's like having the radical idea that people should all have health care is like some wacky progressive stance. So yeah, I'm a progressive. So you're feeling the burn? No. Well, here's the thing. If I'm going for my favorite, who I think would be the best president, it's Elizabeth Warren. the burn no well here's the thing if i'm going for my favorite who i think would be the best president it's elizabeth moore uh-huh i like her the best i think she's the

smartest candidate we have i also like bernie i didn't mind pete i would have been happy with pete um peace i loved pete yeah you're you're the am i'm definitely the moderate you're a sucker for man the skinny white guy with the brown hair and khakis put on a pair of khaki pants apparently i've been taught to trust roll up the shirt sleeves oh yeah rolled up yeah sure rolled up you have a type i mean my god yeah so but uh it's uh looking like looking like a biden situation looking like a biden situation okay we you know we do what it takes to get the job done uh oh baking and bundy says is it a hot dish or a casserole i mean to me it's a casserole too i've never said hot dish before but i know yeah I love

the term hot dish but that's more of like a Minnesota term I think hot dish maybe it's a little northern yeah I think it's a more yes more northern term uh Heather C says Brandy what wedding plans have you made that you're willing to tell the masses about um absolutely absolutely none and that's not that they're a secret It's that I've made absolutely no wedding plans. I think, you know, the plan is garter toss in front of everyone. Super sexy. Followed immediately by an extended dollar dance. Every dance is a dollar dance.

It's a dollar dance. Oh, the David says, oh the david says oh what event are you all the most excited for with the olympics fast approaching this this question comes from your boyfriend is clearly for you um oh i don't i don't know that i calm down brady first of all you're starting to sweat just thinking about it you're so excited the olympics so much you get so worked up i and you know what is gonna happen i will have just had a baby at this year's olympics i'm going to be a mess you know what we should do sometime? We should go to the Olympics.

Oh, Christian! Brandi, you would, I mean, it would be the best thing. I love the Olympics so much. You'd just be sobbing the entire time. I would. I would cry the whole time. I want to see the swimming. I want to see the gymnastics.

I want to see the running. The fact that people can move their bodies that fast is just amazing to me. You should go down to my basement and watch me on the treadmill. You just look up one day and I'm like peeking through your little window. Oh, it would not be a pretty sight. Just me watching true crime documentaries running away. I get so excited. These people have worked their entire lives to get to the olympics and then they either

you know have this like huge crowning moment where they do amazing and then i just like cry and i'm so excited for them or something happens and they like something beyond their control happens and they get out and like then i i also cry for them because they've worked their whole lives for it yeah oh it really is amazing it is so amazing to see people putting everything on the line yeah and working working their asses off working their lives off for one moment yes oh and volleyball i forgot to mention volleyball i also love that i i'm a sucker for gymnastics here's the deal if it's's on, I'm going to watch it. I will literally watch anything.

I told the story very early on in this podcast about the cross-country skiing, which I'd never seen in my life. And I cried my eyes out. This amazing Norwegian who came back and won the entire race. He got knocked over in the beginning by a crowd of people he was way back and he in the final lap somehow managed to fight it out and beat everyone his country hadn't won a medal in 40 years i think one of the things i love about your love for the olympics is you're not one of these people who's just like america fuck yeah like if someone has a good story you are behind them absolutely

oh my god i'm i guess you could say i'm a little bit excited oh goodness i got fired i got heartburn now. I got so fired up. Ooh. This is a good one. What's your go-to drunk food? Hmm. I would say pizza is mine. But see, that's kind of just my go-to food. Food in general. Exactly.

Probably like a big burrito or something. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Grace and Glitter says, how did Brandy meet David? I actually talked about this in the Discord earlier today. We met on Tinder. Craigslist. Missed connections.

Missed connections. No. We met on Tinder. I had been on it for. Why do you say it like that? Because I think it's kind of cheesy. Like, who meets their. A lot of people.

Is it really? Like, do people really meet that way now? What are you? You're the one who met your fiance there, of course. I know, but I think it's kind of like a hookup site well it was supposed to be bring it these are the ways some of these things start oh i just went to netflix and chill oh i love you yeah we met on tinder i had been on tinder for like a day and a half when i matched

with him and i haven't stopped talking since it's excellent lieutenant cumder bun bun just says do a live episode that's not a question question i love that handle oh my cousin jenny um j shippert1 asks, Hi, Chris and Brandy. What are three items you can't live without? Oh, eyeliner, cell phone. What's my third? Probably pizza. Is that an item?

I think that counts. I think I'm thinking of more like what you would put in a carry-on so yeah you got your eyeliner you got you got your cell phone and you've got a full pizza oh my gosh is that how you how you travel i would like to report a crime on our flight back so we you know obviously there's not a direct flight from Charleston to Kansas City. So we had to, I think we stopped in Memphis. So it was super packed in the airport. Were you walking?

It was just miserable. Walking in Memphis. It was just miserable. We're in the gate area. Everyone's like sitting on top of each other. This hot ass fly looking couple comes up, sits down with a large pepperoni pizza. Uh huh.

They open it. They eat it in front of all of us. And the whole time they're like, Oh, it's so good. Oh, it's so good. It was the meanest thing anyone's ever done.

I'm sorry. Did they, was there only, I mean, was this a, an exclusive pizza place? They got this pizza from, I don't know Did they, was there only, I mean, was this an exclusive pizza place they got this pizza from? I don't know where they got it. They obviously got it in the airport, Kristen.

So you could have walked your happy ass over there and gotten a pizza. We looked all over the place for pizza. The best we could find was an O'Charlie's. It looked and smelled so good. Why didn't you ask them where they got it? I wanted to ask them for a slice. You can ask them for a slice, but you can ask them where they got it,

and they'd be like, oh, over near gate G13. Listen, it was too close to when we were going to take off. So there we were, trapped. I had to stare directly at this hot couple eating a pizza. And I just envied everything about them. Anyway, what was it? Okay, so are your three items. Okay, let me think.

And you know what? Cell phones don't count. Cell phones go without saying. Really? I don't have to use it as one of my items? No, no. That's like car keys. That's, you know.

Okay. So do I come up with another item? Damn right do a second damn right you do a second pizza breadsticks um let's see is it wrong that these are all like beauty related i know right eyeliner mascara i know i'd have to add mascara carmix yeah and I'm good to go I mean not not truly good to go but like if I have to go yeah I could accomplish a lot with just like my cell phone and then yeah I need I need my my one large washcloth mascara and my eyeliner and then uh me a little rouge oh a little rouge you know how i like my blush all right should we move on to supreme court inductions yeah why don't you tell people how

to do that okay here's how you get in to the supreme court you sign up at the seven dollar level on patreon and we read your name and this week we are reading your favorite movie. And I gotta say, I was a hard ass this week. Some people tried to list a couple movies. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. I'm cracking down. I just

cut you off at your first movie. Officer Pitts reporting or Caruso. Officer Caruso reporting for duty. Car knight evil dead the remake kimberly stowe you've got mail michelle anderson moulin rouge the maharajah you remember we used to watch that movie all the time we did it wasn't really that good i don't remember it very well. I don't know. We watched it all the time.

That doesn't mean it was good. No. Jennifer Cunan. Wagons East. Laurie Robin. P.S. I love you. Anne Boleyn's Revenge. Leon the Professional.

Barbara Nelson. Jurassic Park. Melanie. Bridesmaids. Camille. Ace Ventura. When Nature Calls. Oh my god, we loved that movie. Pummelby Tuna.

Your balls are showing. Megan Lake. All the Harry Potter movies, same. Brittany. Coraline. Welcome. To the Supreme Court! Brandi, this is your part.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I was collecting my thoughts. Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Are you losing steam

are you cross-country i was i'm falling to the back of the path and now i'm gonna really catch up and come on norway you can do it come on norway please uh subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to apple podcast leave us a rating leave us a review and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts. I'm sorry. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. You wouldn't think that was the 112th time we've done that.

You would not. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the USSIndianapolis.org, the BBC, the New York Times, and Wikipedia. panopopulist.org, the BBC, the New York Times, and Wikipedia. And I got my info from a Texas Monthly article by Pamela Koloff,

an episode of Killer Women, an episode of Dr. Phil, Murderpedia, and CBS News. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. And thank you to Thrive Cosmetics for sponsoring this episode. Yeah, remember that code word LGTC for 15% off your first order.