Let's Go To Court! - 117: The Murder of Skylar Neese & Dr. Ossian Sweet

Episode Date: April 15, 2020

This week, Brandi makes up for Kristin’s April Fool’s Day prank by *actually* covering the murder of Skylar Neese.  It was the summer of 2012, and Dave Neese was supposed to have lunch with his 16-year-old daughter, Skylar. But Skylar wasn’t anywhere to be found. Dave was annoyed. It wasn’t like Skylar to be so irresponsible. He called her, but got no answer. Hours passed. Skylar missed her shift at Wendy’s. Her co-workers were concerned. Skylar always showed up for work. At that point, Dave and Mary Neese called the police. Then Kristin tells the story of Dr. Ossian Sweet. Brandi tried to tell this story for our Black History Month episode, but threw in the towel. (In case you couldn’t tell, this episode is a rough one!) In 1925, Dr. Ossian Sweet and his wife Gladys Sweet were ready to buy their first home. As a black couple, they faced incredible obstacles. Restrictive covenants barred people of color from buying houses in white neighborhoods. That spring and summer, mobs of white people harassed black families who moved into white neighborhoods. Despite their fears, the Sweets bought a house at 2905 Garland St, Detroit, Michigan, and prepared to defend their property. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Sweet Trials” famous-trials.com “Ossian Sweet” wikipedia “Sweet Trials: 1925-26” encyclopedia.com The book, “We Return Fighting: The Civil Rights Movement in the Jazz Age” by Mark Robert Schneider “Dr. Alexander Turner” by Mariel Watkins for the Black Bottom Archives In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Something Wicked” episode Dateline “16-Year-Old Skylar Neese Was Stabbed To Death By Her Two Best Friends Because They Didn’t Like Her Anymore” by William DeLong, AllThatsInteresting.com “From Best Friends to Killers: Teens Murder Friend Because They 'Didn't Like Her’” by Gail Deutsch and Alexa Valiente, ABC News “Murder of Skylar Neese” wikipedia.org

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Dr. Ocean Sweet. And I'll be talking about the murder of Skylar Neese.

For real this time. Okay, do you realize what has happened here unintentionally? Uh, we switched cases. Yeah, we are both doing cases that the other one didn't have the nuts to do. That's exactly right. Yes, I claimed your case when we did our Black History Month episode. And then I was like, I can't handle it. I'm changing cases.

What was it? Was it too uplifting? God, this is going to be a rough episode. Yeah. It's okay. It's not like the world is dark and sad right now. No, no, not at all. No.

Or that we're all just trapped in our own homes, in our own isolation booths. No end in sight. Okay okay I have a bright sunny story to tell you oh good tell me okay okay I know that laughing about this makes me not a good person but in my defense it was very funny so obviously stay at home order is in place for Kansas City right now. And so, you know, we're allowed to go outside for exercise. But that's kind of, you know, aside from like essential stuff, that's kind of the one reason you can be outside. So, I've been thinking about getting on my bike some.

I don't know. I haven't been on a bike in many years. But anyway, I was out for a run the other day. My sister and I met up for a run the other day. My sister and I met up for a social distance run together. And we were running down the street. And there was this, it looked like a couple on bikes heading in our direction on that same sidewalk. The guy looked super comfortable on his bike, like you know this was something he does regularly and the woman not so much a little wobbly a little wobbly so so you know we're we're both heading

at each other and the guy obviously like pops down off of the sidewalk and down onto the street so that we have the full sidewalk. Very nice. Okay. And again, since he is a normal bike rider, it looks like, he does the thing you do when you ride bikes regularly. You know, when you pop down off the sidewalk, down off the curb, you don't keep your crotch pressed firmly against the seat. Uh-huh. You lift up. Yeah.

Okay, so he does that. And the woman behind him is kind of like, you can tell she's got this look on her face like, oh, biscuits, what am I doing? Because now she has to attempt the same maneuver but it was clear she did not study for it so she gets down off that curb keeps herself pressed against the seat so she bangs her vagina something fierce no and the sound she made it was like and then she goes oh no i'm sorry kyla called it the cooter collision it was

i mean so you know the the thing about seeing someone bruise their vagina is like, you've got to act like you didn't see it happen. So, you know, we witnessed it, waited for her to pedal off, and then we about died laughing. It was something real. Poor lady. Okay. And her cooter collision. Maybe this is a test of whether you're a good person. Because, like, Kylo's husband, Jay, said the same thing. Like, man, I'm surprised you don't have more empathy. collision. Maybe this is maybe this is a test of whether you're a good person, because like

Kylo's husband, Jay, said the same thing. Like, man, I'm surprised you don't have more empathy. But like DP, my dad cracked up. I cracked up. Norm cracked up, you know. And here you are, just horrified. I feel bad for her. Well, yeah, I mean, we all feel bad for her. for her well yeah i mean we all feel bad for her but i think it's because i would be her for sure listen we're all her in some respects at some point in our day we are her but like man there's just so little to laugh about and man when i saw that lady smack her own cooter it was just it was too much oh no poor lady and her poor bruised cooter should i save this story for someone else someone with a little less sympathy

nah i enjoyed it. Okay, okay. I did, I did enjoy it. And this is, hey, you know what? You know what? I actually didn't find any of it funny. It's just that this is a PSA for all of us who are getting on our bikes now.

Now we know, like, when you're gonna get down off a curb, like, you gotta lift your ass up so you don't bang yourself and your suit parts even when i was like an avid bike rider i wouldn't ride off the curb like that i would have to like slow down and then like but like walk it off the curb see i never learned that crotch lift technique with all the years that we rode bikes together you never did the crotch lift no apparently not nobody ever taught it to me. Thanks, Kristen.

Some friend you are. Well, I mean, I demonstrated it many times, I can tell you that. Where were your eyes, I ask you? Not on your crotch, as they should be. That was your mistake right there. But yeah, so the lady, she slowed down tremendously. But that's the thing. Slowing down, I think, makes no real difference.

Either way, you're still banging yourself. Well, yeah, it probably makes the impact worse. Yeah. Yeah. Again, not funny at all. It's just a PSA. It's just a PSA. Protect your crotch out there, ladies and gentlemen.

Yeah, they say wear masks. And yeah, wear masks, wear gloves. And I guess, you know. A cup? Some kind of vagina helmet. I don't know. Vagina helmet! Why don't they make those?

Because we can hurt ourselves. I mean, clearly this woman, she hurt herself. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why there aren't more vaginal protection devices. Merch idea. um yeah i don't know i don't know why there aren't more vaginal protection devices merch idea lgtc vagina uh what do we call them vagina helmets yeah that's right i'm sure people will be really into those so i you know i played softball for years and i had like these special shorts that i wore under my softball uniform that were they're called sliders. And they have like pads in like the thots and thighs to protect you from for when you slide. And they also had this big foam pad that protects your tailbone.

So, yeah, you probably just need an additional pad in the front to protect your vagina. Was there no pad in the front? No. OK, that was clearly designed by a dude. Well, they don't have a dick and balls, so it must just be like... I mean, do they think we're like Ken dolls down there? Just a big smooth area? No nerve endings whatsoever.

no nerve endings whatsoever this is quite a lead-in to what's going to be a really tragic episode yeah are we stalling i know i go first i guess i'll go so when you teased that you were going to do this case and then didn't a A bunch of people then reached out and were like, Brandy, please, please do it, do it, do it. And so here I am giving the people what they want. Being the hero that I refuse to be. That's exactly right. Oh, what are we doing? Guys, if you're sitting around bored at home, and I certainly hope you are, unless you're one of,

well, you know, you know who you are know you know who you are you know who you are and thank you we have got bonus episodes that you could be listening to at this very moment at the five dollar level on patreon we've got what is it eight bonus episodes nine nine nine i'm very oh excuse me nine bonus episodes ready for you to binge. We've also got the Discord where you can come in and chat with all of us. At the $7 level, that's the Supreme Court level, you get all of those bonus episodes plus a backlog of bonus videos that are really fun. You get a sticker, you get our lovely autographs, you get, of course, into the Discord,, oh, you get inducted at the end of an episode. So what more do you want in life?

A vagina helmet. We hear you, but we just don't have the time right now. Should we tell them what the bonus video is going to be? Oh, I don't know if they can handle it. Okay, you guys. We're going to film it tomorrow. I'm very excited. But Norm came to me the other day and he's like, my hair is driving me crazy, which I

think we can all relate to. He's like, I need a haircut so bad. I, you know, I'm just going to shave it off. I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to. And I was like, okay, I think it would be fun if we FaceTime Brandy and she tried to walk me through the haircut she normally gives you. Yes, so I'm going to try and coach Kristen through cutting Norm's hair, which will probably result in him getting his head shaved anyway. Wow, Brandy, how very rude of you. I guess it's because you don't feel very confident in your skills as a teacher, huh?

Oh, yeah, that must be it. No, so I'm very excited to give Norman a haircut tomorrow, and I'm not very optimistic either, but I really don't want him to shave his head, though. Yeah. But that's obviously what's going to happen. It's what's gonna happen and then once all of this once we can safely meet again i'll fix it for him brandy what if i give him like the most amazing haircut of his life i will pay you ten thousand dollars

there's no fucking way kristen wow haters in my face trying to keep me down i'm sorry i went to school and have been doing this for years. You think you're going to cut it better than I do? What if I'm a prodigy? Okay. What if I am Mozart? Okay. You're the Mozart of clippers? Yes. Yes. What do you do? What tools do you even have to do this, Kristen? You got it. You got a pair of clippers. I mean, yeah. All right. Tell me, give me all the information you know about the clippers that you have. I mean, I know you plug them in. I know there's some guards. I hope he's got all the guards that originally came with this set.

We've got some kitchen shears. Excellent. We've got a comb. I've got a spray bottle. We usually use it when Kiki's acting a fool, but I can use it on his hair. It's going to be great. I think you'll be eating some humble pie tomorrow. Okay. You keep on telling yourself that. You're going to be recruiting me. You're going to be like, we have to have you at the salon right away. Yes, I'm sure. I'm sure that's exactly. You can just step in while I'm on maternity leave. Wow, guys.

Are you listening to this? I have a friend who is very unsupportive. My Lord. Okay, tell us about your terrible case. Okay, okay. A couple of shout outs real quick. First of all, hold on, let me pull this up. Oh, are you totally unprepared?

No, I want to issue a personal apology to poor Carson in our Discord, who got very excited when the episode came out on April 1st, thinking that you had done the case that she recommended. And then found out that it was all a sham so carson i'm covering the case as a personal gift to you oh wow like the mother teresa of podcasting most of this information comes from an episode of dateline called something wicked and an article for all things Interesting by William DeLong. You love William DeLong.

I do. I, you know, he is becoming, he and David Kradicek, they're my buddies. They have no idea. They don't know it at all. But your relationship is advancing. That's right. All right, Here we go. It was just after noon on July 6th, 2012, when David Neese returned home to his apartment in Star City, Virginia, which is like a small suburb.

Star City or Star City? Shut your fucking face, Kristen. Star space city space West Virginia. Yeah. space, West Virginia. So it is a small suburb, about 1,800 people just outside of Morgantown, which Morgantown is where the West Virginia University is.

Yes. Which is in the same conference as the Jayhawks. And so we have to play them, and I hate Bob Huggins. So, just a little fun fact for you. Wow, tell us more. My goodness. That's all I got for you. Wow. Tell us more. My goodness. That's all I got for you. So David Neese gets home

to have lunch with his 16-year-old daughter. What conference are they in again? They're in the Big 12 Conference, which sounds confusing because there's not actually 12 teams in it, but it is a true

round-robin conference, so that means every team plays each other twice, once at home and once away. This has been so helpful. You know, I've had trouble sleeping from the anxiety. So this is great. Anyway, David Neese, he's going to have some lunch with his daughter Skylar. So he comes home to their apartment where they live in Star City, West Virginia. And he finds the apartment empty. He's like, well, that's weird. She knew I was coming home to have lunch with her. And so he gives Skylar a call. No answer. And so he calls his

wife, Mary. And he's like, hey, you know, I just got home to have lunch with Skylar. Skylar's not here. Do you know where she is? And his wife, Mary's like, it's the summer. It's the afternoon. I'm sure she just went like swimming with her friends or shopping. Like, I'm sure she just totally forgot that you guys were going to have lunch today. And so she's like, don't worry about it. She's supposed to be at work at four at Wendy's. She worked at the Wendy's in their town. She has to be at work at four. I'll call Wendy's a little bit after four and I'll touch base with her. At some point, like David wasn't necessarily satisfied with Mary's take on it. And so he did try calling her friends. Skylar had two really close friends. The three of them called themselves the Three Musketeers. They were Sheila, Eddie and

Rachel Shoff. So he does call Sheila. Sheila was very close with the niece family. She like came over all the time, was always at their house, would just like come in without knocking on the door. Like that's just the relationship they had. Like, right. It was just like a second family for her. And she was like another daughter for them. Like it was just the way that relationship worked.

They were not as close with Rachel Shoff. Rachel came from a more conservative family, pretty religious family. And Rachel was very close friends with Skylar and Sheila both. She just had like a little bit of a different relationship with Skylar's parents. So David calls both of them and doesn't really get a straight answer about if they've seen her or what and so he's like looks around the apartment a little bit and he discovers that Skylar's window like the screen on the outside of her window is off and there is a bench pushed up against her window looks like so that somebody could either climb up on the bench and then in the window or climb out of the window and down onto the bench whatever yeah and so he's alarmed by this and so he talks to Mary again at some point

and he keeps calling Skylar throughout the rest of the afternoon. And he's getting no response. At one point, he leaves her a message that like, hey, you're in big trouble. Give me a call back. Like, I need to know where you are. Yeah.

But Mary's just trying to keep David calm. She's like, it's fine. It's fine. I will call. I'll call Wendy. She never misses work. Like we will, we'll get in contact with her stop worrying and so Mary had plans to call she wanted to call Wendy's at like 10 after four give Skylar a chance to clock in she was supposed to report for her shift at four o'clock only David and Mary never got the chance to call

Wendy's because Wendy's called them first really called yes they called them because Skylar never showed up for work and she had never missed a single shift she loved her job she loved her co-workers it was not like her at all and so they called her and they're like hey is Skylar coming to work today we tried to call her didn't get an answer so we just wanted to reach out to you guys yeah this was when this was when David and Mary were like, okay, shit, something is for sure up here. So they call the police. David calls the police and reports Skylar missing. Says, hey, my daughter, she came home from work last night at like 10, went to bed, haven't seen her since.

And we haven't been able to get in contact with her. And her job just called and said that she didn't show up for work. We need to report her missing. And they're like, OK. So she's a 16-year-old girl. And you think she, it sounds like she might have run away. There's not a lot we can do. Oh, that's helpful.

It's super helpful. Exactly. But David and Mary are like, she wouldn't have run away. Like, that's not it's super helpful exactly but david and mary are like she wouldn't have run away like that's not in her character at all so skylar's best friend sheila comes over and is helping david and mary they're gonna start like canvassing the neighborhood you know looking for her and at some point during that she Sheila comes clean to the nieces. She says, OK, I have to tell you something. We did sneak out last night and they're like, OK, what? And so Sheila tells them that that night she and Rachel had come and got Skylar somewhere around 11 o'clock. She'd snuck out her window and they picked her up and they just driven around kind of joyriding and that they brought her back right around midnight.

But that Skylar had insisted that they drop her off at the end of the street so that she could walk back to the apartment and not make any noise so that her parents wouldn't hear her coming back in. They didn't want her parents to hear the car pulling up or whatever. Yeah. And so this is new information. And so David calls the police again and is like, OK, so now we know that she snuck out last night, but they said that they brought her back at midnight and dropped her off, but they didn't wait around to see her come back into the apartment. Like somebody must have abducted her during that time.

Right. And so, again, this is not received any better by the police they're like okay so you have proof that she snuck out last night yeah this is not a missing person this is a runaway no dude come on yeah and so the nieces are left at this point to pretty much just start a search on their own and so they do hell yeah and it isn't until the next day, two days later, something like that, that the police start taking this like very seriously, that this is more than just a runaway situation.

Good of them to show up to the party. Okay. At some point, as the police realize, okay, this is maybe not our typical runaway situation, they look into Skylar's activity, like on her phone and in her bank account, and they assess her room for her personal belongings. And the things that they find are very alarming. First of all, since she has gone missing, her phone has not been used at all. Her card has not been used at all.

And she left behind her glasses or contacts, whichever she wore, her toothbrush and her phone charger. Things that a teenager would never leave behind were they planning to take off. Yeah. But there's no sign of Skylar. This news story of this missing girl really takes over the town. Everybody kind of gets behind the Niece family and Sheila and Rachel are there for Skylar's parents the whole time. They're right by their side, you know, helping them with searches and getting the word out and all of that.

But the investigation kind of moves forward, but there's nothing to go on yeah nobody knows what happened to Skylar maybe they should have started the investigation sooner yeah maybe so they do obviously start talking to Rachel and Sheila first those are those are Skylar's two closest friends they were with her that night. They were likely the last people that saw her. And so they do. They interrogate them.

And they actually, over the course of the investigation, interrogate them multiple times to the point that Skylar's dad gets really upset about it. He goes and talks to the police. And he's like, you guys are wasting your time. You are focusing on these girls who are Skylar's best friends. You just keep asking them questions like you need to look elsewhere. It's not these girls and you're harassing them. And he's just defending them left and right, like, please look somewhere else. You're wasting time here. And rumors kind of

start to float around town and through the high school like these girls are sophomores in high school or we're going into their junior year i believe yeah and so there's all kinds of of rumors about what happened to skylar the big rumor that kind of takes off that the police start actually looking into is that there had been some big house party in a neighboring town that night and that Skylar had been there and that she'd overdosed on heroin and the people at the party had freaked out and hidden her body. And so police start questioning a bunch of people about that. Yeah. Eventually there's found to be nothing to that that they can't find any proof that a party actually happened or that anybody actually saw skylar there it's just like oh yeah well my friend

of a friend was there and saw it happen like that's you know your typical your typical rumor thing so that turns out to be nothing at some point they find some security camera footage from the apartment complex. It's really grainy and difficult to make out. walked across the parking lot like she came out of her bedroom, like snuck out through her bedroom window, walked across the parking lot and got into some kind of four door sedan. It was very difficult to make out. There was nothing like notable about it. But this did not match with the timeline that Sheila and Rachel had given. And so Mary, when she sees this, she's like, okay, here's the answer. She snuck out with her friends that night, you know, went for a joyride.

This was something they had done before. They'd gotten in trouble for this before. They'd actually gotten stopped once when they were out, like, driving around smoking pot. They got stopped for being out after curfew. And so, like, the town had a curfew. And so they got in trouble. But it was just, like, the parents all just wrote it off. Yeah, the town had a curfew and so like the town had a curfew and so they got in trouble but it was just like the parents all just wrote it off you yeah the town had a curfew for how it's kind of common like a

lot of places have it plaza has a curfew the legends has a curfew here in our area if you're under 18 you can't be at those places after it's either 9 or 10 so yeah so similar thing they were minors out after curfew and so they'd'd gotten in trouble. And the parents had kind of just written it off as like, usual teenage shenanigans, like nothing crazy. Nobody got in any serious trouble. And so Mary, when she finds this out, she's like, okay. So they went out and did their joyriding thing again. They dropped her off at midnight. She came back in the house, and then somebody else came, and she snuck out again at 12 30. To her that was the explanation for what they saw on that security footage. The police though are still focusing on Rachel and Sheila. There's something about their behavior that is alarming to them.

Sheila hasn't really done much. Like she's still very active on social media, just as she was before. But Rachel has kind of to seem to withdraw a little bit. She's kind of keeping to herself a little bit more. The two of them still remain close, but they kind of self-isolate. They kind of pull away from the rest of the kids at school, like when the school year starts back up and whatever. And so the police think that there's something to that, like maybe they know more than they're letting on. And so they start looking into the story that they told.

They try to piece together more of that security footage. So they know there's security footage at the apartment complex and they try and follow that same security footage through town like see if they can pick that same car up on any other security cameras yeah the reason the police were starting to question Sheila and Rachel's stories is that every time they sat them down to interrogate them or ask them more or ask for further details, their story was exactly the same. And now typically, that's what you want. You want somebody to be telling the same story. You know, that's how you know they're telling the truth, because they're telling the same story every time. But did it sound like the same story word for word? Exactly. Yeah. The exception to that is when you've got two separate people

telling the exact same story verbatim when they're using the exact same words to tell the exact same story that's when red flags go up and they're like this is a practiced story this is rehearsed they know more than they are letting on and so we're like almost six months into this investigation by now. And we still have no idea where Skylar is. And while the police have started suspecting that Rachel and Sheila know more than they're letting on, they don't have any proof of that. Right. And at first, they don't let Skylar's parents in on that information but at some point Skylar's parents come to the same conclusion that Sheila knows more than she is telling them and that they have like been holding her close to them

this entire time and they've been protecting her from the police and telling the police like you're looking into the wrong person and so they start to back off from that a little bit and and Skylar's mom starts posting stuff on Facebook that is like kind of backhanded or kind of like underhanded comments about how, you know, please tell what you know, if anybody knows anything that they're not telling, like, we need to know, we just need to know where Skylar is. And so that relationship between the nieces and Sheila kind of starts to crumble a little bit as they feel like, okay, there's definitely something here that she's not telling us. Yeah. In the meantime, as I mentioned, Rachel is kind of starting to pull away a little bit from social stuff. She seems to be going through some kind of crisis and lots of people notice people at school notice her parents notice.

And it all kind of comes to a head one day with a 911 call. On December 28th, so we're talking like almost six months after Skylar went missing, December 28th, 2012, Rachel Shoff's mom calls 911. And she is like frantic. There's all of this screaming going on in the background. And the 911 call, there's a recording of it on this Dateline episode. But in the 911 call, she says, I have an issue with my 16 year old daughter. I can't control her anymore. She's hitting us. She's screaming. She's running around the neighborhood. And in the background, like during this whole call, Rachel is just like screaming and crying uncontrollably. And she's saying, no, no, give me the phone. No, don't call. And then her mother,

who's on the phone with 911, she's like, please hurry. My husband is trying to contain her right now. Please just send an officer. I don't we don't know what to do anymore. Yeah. And so finally, like the police send someone out. They take Rachel into custody. They don't really know what's going on at this point. But her parents feel that she's maybe a harm to someone else, a harm to herself. They don't really know. The police don't really know. And so they end up taking her into custody and they know that they have suspicions at this point about her involvement in Skylar's disappearance. And so they decide to just take her in and do another interview with her and almost immediately when she's taken in for

an interview she breaks down and Rachel says to investigators we stabbed her oh and they're like what what and so at this point what the police did know was that the car that had been caught on that security footage had belonged to Sheila Eddie they had determined that that was her car and they had been able as I mentioned they tried to piece together security footage throughout town to piece together and they had found out that the car had left town the opposite way as the girls had said like they'd said they'd gone east once they picked her up and the car had gone west or vice versa i can't remember but and doesn't doesn't really matter but they knew that this girl's story was a lie and so as soon as they get her in and she's like we stabbed stabbed her. They're like, OK. And so at that point, they were like, just get it all out.

Like, obviously, this is having a toll on you. Yeah. Just tell us everything. Tell us everything you know. And she did. She gave a full confession. She said that she and Sheila had planned to murder Skylar for like more than a month. They just talked about it one day in science class and they thought, yeah, let's do it.

They had made a plan on how they were going to do it. They were going to have her sneak out and tell her that they were going to go drive around and smoke pot like they'd done before. And then they were going to go to this wooded area that they'd sometimes gone to. And once they were there, they were going to go drive around and smoke pot like they'd done before and then they were going to go to this wooded area that they'd sometimes gone to and once they were there they were going to stab her why that is a great question thank you thank you why there's some theories and i'll get there at the end okay because this is just bizarre it's so bizarre it's so bizarre to this's so bizarre. To this day, I mean, there's only speculation. Nobody really knows why. When Rachel specifically in this interrogation was asked why, her only answer was, we didn't like her anymore.

Oh, my God. Yeah. specifically this night was picked because rachel chauffe was supposed to be going to catholic church camp and she was going to leave in a couple days and so they just wanted to get it done before she went to church camp wow yeah so on that particular night they came to um skylar's house she snuck out right around 1230. They picked her up. Sheila and Rachel were ready. They had already packed a change of clothing in the car. They'd packed a shovel and cleaning supplies. And then they had each worn a hoodie. And in the pockets of their hoodies, they'd each hidden a knife. I can't believe the amount of planning that went into this. Oh, yeah.

Two 16-year-old girls spent a month or more planning to kill their other best friend. Yeah, it's, it's, you can't even wrap your head around it. It doesn't make any sense. No. So they said they went, they picked up Skylar and she was like, what are we doing? And they both pulled out their pipes for smoking weed and everybody was smoking weed as they drove out of town they drove to this wooded area in Pennsylvania so they crossed like the state line or whatever and they this was a place they were all familiar with they'd gone there before to smoke and then they

all got out of the car it was hot out it was july if you'll remember and both sheila and rachel had hoodies on because they were concealing knives in their hoodie pockets but apparently skylar hadn't noticed or hadn't thought anything of it and she never mentioned anything of it and then as they walked through the woods rachel schoff said on three then they counted down and they pounced on her and just began stabbing her she was stabbed repeatedly there's varying numbers um some reports say upwards of 50 times um she was stabbed a lot yeah at one point rachel recounted that she had started to like crawl away or run away and so they knocked her down stabbed her in the knee so that she was immobilized wow oh god authorities asked rachel what skylar was saying during all of this, what her reaction was.

And she said that she just kept saying why over and over again, and that her last word was why. Following the brutal murder of Skylar, the girls had planned to bury her, dig a hole in that wooded area, but they got the shovel out and they found that the

ground was too rocky they couldn't dig and so they ended up like putting her kind of up against a tree and then putting dirt and rocks and twigs on top of her body and then leaving they changed their clothes right there at the spot right where they were and then they disposed of their clothes and on their way back to town police were able to follow what she said as far as where they went um i think they actually had rachel take them to the woods yeah like a couple days after this confession came out and identify where they had left her and they were able to recover some remains obviously she was left out in the open so there wasn't she had been subjected to animals and the elements and so there wasn't a ton left

but they were able to identify what was left as Skylar's remains good grief initially uh this is this is crazy to me initially rachel was not arrested after giving this confession why police and the fbi was involved at this point as well this had become a very large investigation they weren't sure if they could believe it because the girls had told multiple lies at this point and so they needed more concrete evidence before they were willing to arrest rachel because it would tip sheila off and they were afraid of how at this point they didn't have enough to also implicate her outside of Rachel's confession. Yeah. And even when Rachel took them to that wooded area, it took them some time to find the body.

Yeah. I think a few weeks, a week, two weeks, something like that, to actually find the remains based on where she took them and what she showed them just because of the condition that they were in. Yeah. So in the meantime, they asked Rachel to work with them to try and get Sheila to give them a confession as well. And she did. She set up a couple of like hangouts with Sheila where they had like her secretly where either like a wire or actually she had like a video recording device at some point as well. And she would try to bring it up, but she never got Sheila to confess to

anything on tape during these times. Once they were able to find the body and positively ID the remains. I believe that happened in March. Then they officially were able to arrest Rachel Schoaf and they prepared to charge her with first degree murder. At that time, once the remains were identified, they were actually able to seize Sheila Eddy's car and they found blood in the trunk of it. And were able to match that to sheila or to i'm sorry to skylar's dna and at that point they took her into custody she was arrested while she was leaving cracker barrel on may 1st 2013 well that should be a crime too leaving cracker barrel i'm just not a big fan not a big fan of cracker i haven't had cragger barrel in years i know it's really good hash brown casserole really cheesy potatoes yeah like cheesy hash

brown potatoes so good okay okay my mom has like a copycat recipe and she makes it like when we do like brunch or whatever it's very good oh, OK. But I haven't been in a Cracker Barrel in a very long time. You know, my mom and I used to go all the time like that was our special place in elementary school. She'd take me and we'd go and it was always so much fun because they always had like the little store attached. But it seems like in recent years they get all these racism stuff. I don't know. Oh, really oh really yeah haven't you heard some of the lawsuits no cracker barrel no i haven't obviously hang on cracker barrel racist um so i'm on snopes and it says in 2004 the justice department announced the filing and

settlement of a racial discrimination lawsuit against Cracker Barrel after they found evidence of discriminatory practices based on race in approximately 50 different Cracker Barrel restaurants in seven states. Yes. Wow. No, I had no idea. I mean, apparently I've been boycotting them this whole time and didn't even know it. Way to be a good person, Brandi. No, I had no idea. I mean, apparently I've been boycotting them this whole time and didn't even know it. Way to be a good person, Brandy. Anyway, back to this case.

Okay, back to this case. Anyway, so the prosecution had already made a deal with Rachel Schoaf because she had agreed to work with them. She was going to get to plead guilty to second degree murder in exchange for a 30 year sentence. With that, she was required to testify against Sheila Eddy. That wouldn't end up needing to happen, though. Initially, Sheila's defense pled not guilty and she was charged with first degree murder and she was kind of sold as like the ringleader of the plan and all of that. Eventually, as they were about to go to trial, her defense announced that they had basically hadn't come up with a plausible defense and they were going to go ahead and plead guilty. Yeah, yeah. Neither of the girls were very apologetic or sympathetic at their sentencing hearings. David Neese spoke at both of them and

said that he didn't believe that they deserved any leniency from the courts. And he was not happy with the deal that Rachel Schoaf got, because with good behavior, she will be out of prison after 10 years, possibly. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. They were both sentenced as adults. And Sheila Eddy ended up sentenced to 15 years to life for her role. Is that all? Charge of first degree murder. Yeah.

So that means that she has to serve at least 15 years. And David Neese, Skylar's dad, says that he will be at every parole hearing arguing to make sure that she never gets out of prison. I guess it's just shocking to me that even rachel wasn't apologetic yeah so rachel's rachel issued a statement through her attorney she didn't speak at all herself okay and her statement through her attorney was like rachel understands that the entire niece family is going through feels a lot of sorrow over over skylar's death over skylar's death that's what it said i'm like skylar didn't just die skylar was brutally murdered right like if you were to read it independently you'd think that skylar died of you know cancer or something or some kind of accident. Yes. Not that. Yes. She died at the hands of her two best friends.

Yeah. Yeah. Sheila Eddy did a little more. I think she at least spoke on her own behalf and said and apologized to David and Mary. But David said he was he was not pleased with it, was not affected by it anyway. When the girls were both sentenced, he said they're both sickos and they're both exactly where they need to be away from civilization locked up like animals because that's what they are they're animals he was really affected and gave a couple of interviews obviously any parent would be affected by this but he was really as rachel's statement said he felt sorrow to sorrow over the death of his daughter yes yes but he he was particularly affected because he had believed in the girls for so long and he'd come to their aid

and asked the police to stop looking into them like hey you're wasting time here and yeah like he just couldn't believe that these two girls had who had also like sheila had been there with the family like every day in the days following skylar's disappearance like oh i'm so brokenhearted like i can't wait for my best friend to come back i just miss her so much and she knew the whole time what had fucking happened to her yeah that's what she had done to her yeah yeah so they're both in prison as i said rachel could get out as early as after serving 10 years and then she letty will become eligible for parole after 15 years the nieces filed a wrongful death civil suit against the girl's parents yeah and really it was just one of those things where it's meant to block them being able

to make profit off of there. Yeah. They settled out of court for it looks like five million dollars. They knew they made a statement saying, like, we know that that's just like a judgment written on a piece of paper. We will never see any of that money. Yeah. But it helps to know like that they'll never be able to profit off of what they did.

Yeah. Following Skylar's death, the Niece family worked to pass Skylar's Law, which is a law in West Virginia that requires that the state will issue an Amber Alert for all missing children, even those that the state doesn't believe were kidnapped. They know that that would not have saved Skylar. Skylar was dead before they ever knew she was missing. But they believe that this could help the investigation start sooner for so many. Absolutely. So many missing children and teenagers. Yeah. Yeah. The fact that their investigation got started so late

is just unforgivable. Yes. The nieces set up a memorial in the woods where skylar was killed they set up a bench and like a little plaque in her honor and david goes there regularly and sits and talks to his daughter and he says it was important for him to take a place that he knew was so dark and where his daughter must have felt so much fear and turn it into a positive reminder of her yeah now we'll talk about a couple of theories on the why because this is ridiculous it is ridiculous so the most talked about theory there is the just like they were they were mean nasty girls and decided that they wanted to see what it was like to kill someone that's okay that's one of the theories the other one which is maybe the most believable is that rachel and sheila had begun a lesbian

relationship that skylar was well aware of but that they believed that Skylar was going to out them. And so that's why they decided to kill her. I don't know. So people who knew Skylar really well were like she was an outspoken ally for LGBT rights like that. That doesn't make any sense. But apparently it was well known that the girls were having some kind of sexual relationship and that Rachel's family was very conservative. Yeah, they were conservative Catholics and that there was some fear there from Rachel about her family finding out and that she believed, I guess, that Skylar was going to tell them. And that's why the girls decided to kill her. Yeah, but I would think if you were really, really worried that you were going to be out at any minute now, would you take a month and plan a murder? Yeah,

right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the most talked about theory. That's the one that floats around the most. Who knows why they really did it? No one will ever really know. According to both Rachel and Sheila, they just decided they didn't like her anymore. both Rachel and Sheila, they just decided they didn't like her anymore. Oh, well. Yep. That's how I roll. And that is the horrifying murder of Skylar Neese.

Well, I'm glad you did it and not me. And I can completely understand why you couldn't. It was terrible. It was such a heartbreaking case. There was no reason for her to die. No reason at all. And she died in such a heartbreaking case like there was no reason for her to die no reason at all and she died in such a horrible way oh my gosh and then for her fucking best friend to like buddy up to her parents and like i'll be here for you yeah that's well she's missing and you knew exactly what fucking happened to her what you did to her it's disgusting well what can you do when you don't like someone anymore right now i guess you just murder oh yeah can't just stop being friends with

somebody well no shit it's like just don't be friends with her anymore that happens all the time oh gross yeah that was a terrible one oh Now we just have to go into mine? That's right. Do you have a cooter bang story? I don't have any cooter bang stories. I have told you that I've literally been leaving the house only to go to my doctor's appointment. So I can, let me come up. I got a shot in my butt this week at my doctor's office.

That's as fun of a story as I have. What was it? So I have a negative blood type. And because they don't so they don't know what blood type London has until she's born. And so there's a risk that if she has a positive blood type and our blood comes in contact with each other, that my body will fight it like it's an infection, which would be harmful to the baby. And so I had to get what's called a Rogam shot, get that in my butt. And that means that if I come in contact with London's blood and it happens to be positive, my body won't see that as like an infection. It won't fight it. It'll just let it be there.

OK, so. Well, yeah, that was very exciting. I had to pull my pants down at my doctor's office and get a shot right in my cheek. Directly in the buttocks. Directly in the buttocks. Directly in the buttocks. I've got to say, that was the least fun butt story I've heard in a long time. That's all I got for you. Are you doing any fun self-care things these days?

I don't know. Oh, wow. I told you, I've got a mane of silk right now. That's right. Doing all the hair masks. Of course, my roots look like shit and I need a cut, but it's silky. Let me tell you. So I told you this the other day when we talked.

So this past weekend, we put London's crib together. Oh, yeah. Which I was very excited about. My mom and Steve got us her crib as like our baby gift. And they brought it over before the lockdowns went into effect. And so this weekend, it was just David and I. And so we put the crib together. And it's beautiful.

It's like a beautiful black metal crib. I love it. But once we put it together, it's like a beautiful black like metal crib it's i love it but once we put it together this is so ridiculous i um i don't know if you know that there's a lot of hormones involved with pregnancy kristin i've heard but once we put it together and put it in the room where it is going to be because of where her dresser is the crib can't be perfectly centered on the wall uh-huh so how did you react to that i cried and poor david just looked at me like okay what what should we do what can we do he's like do you

want to try this and this and i was like nothing else will work it's fine he's like, do you want to try this? And this one, I was like, nothing else will work. It's fine. He's like, should we bulldoze the house down and we'll start from scratch? Poor David was just trying to do anything to make me feel better about it. And I was just like, it's fine. It's just not what I wanted. But we were talking about this and it's like everything is out of our control right now everything's scary out of our control and so like you think you're gonna do this one little project at home and it's gonna turn out how you want and it's a half inch off center and That's exactly right. Oh, God. No. I have recovered from the heartbreak of the off-center crib.

Only took a few days, but you're back on top. That's exactly right. No, I think anybody who's pregnant during these trying times will probably relate to that, right? I think anybody who's pregnant during these trying times will probably relate to that, right? I mean, looking back, it feels very ridiculous. But at the moment, I was just like, there's nothing worse could happen right now than this crib being off center. Okay, don't say that shit. You have no idea what will happen. Exactly.

Okay, we ready for this yeah take it away getting a drink of water this is this is a long one let me tell you oh good actually you know what let me pee first because it is actually that long all right i'll be back all right okay you there bro i am here all right here we go randy i just have to tell you right off the bat that i'm really glad you're doing this case and not me because when i was reading all about it i pronounced his name very differently than you how did you pronounce it asian okay i was pronouncing it in my head, OSEAN, this whole time. And then like an hour before we were going to record, I was like, man, I better double check this.

So I went on the YouTubes and there were like four different pronunciations that I heard. But most of them were basically ocean. Okay. I'm sure that's correct. As soon as you said that, I was like, oh. It's to the point, and I was so nervous about getting his name wrong, that I literally did a find and replace through this document. And I replaced Oceion, which is how it's like spelled and how I would, how I want to pronounce it. And now it just says ocean all over this thing because i you know this guy you guys will find out this guy goes

through enough shit he doesn't also need me to mispronounce his name 47 times exactly okay great so shout outs of course go to famTrials.com. Love it. Professor Douglas O. Linder has once again killed it. He has a whole big write up of this case. It was very helpful. Also, though, the way our boy Dougie, our boy Dougie, and Wikipedia has a stellar entry on this, too. Also, Encyclopedia.com was helpful. You know, the works. Also, old timey disclaimer.

Wonderful. Okay, here we go. Ocean Sweet was a highly intelligent, accomplished black man who had been through some unimaginable shit. He was born in Florida in 1895, and when he was five years old, he witnessed an event that would haunt him for the rest of his life. This is bad. Okay, I don't need to keep reminding people this is bad. Anyway, buckle up. Yeah, it's going to be bad the whole time.

Oh, hold on, let me buckle up real quick. Click. Okay, I'm ready ready it was nighttime he was about a mile from his family's farm when he came upon a lynching oh a mom how old he was about five years old oh okay a mob of white people had captured a 16 year old black boy named Fred Rochelle. And so little Ocean, he was hiding behind some bushes and he watched as the mob set Fred Rochelle on fire. That incredibly traumatizing event would stick with Ocean for the rest of his life. He said he could remember the smell of the kerosene and the way Fred screamed as his body was being burned because he was being burned alive. Oh, my gosh. He would also remember how afterward, the white people in the crowd picked off pieces of Fred's burned body to take home as souvenirs.

What the fuck? Right? I thought the crab apple tree was bad. I know, I know. In 1909, when Ocean was just 13, his parents, who I'm sure knew he was very bright, made the tough decision to send him to Ohio. There was a college there and it offered prep classes. It was Wilberforce College and it was the first college in the nation to be owned and operated by black people. So Ocean flourished at Wilberforce.

He stayed there for eight years studying a ton of different subjects, taking odd jobs along the way to pay his tuition. And by the time he was 25, he had his bachelor's degree in science. But he wasn't done with his education. After Wilberforce, he went to Howard University, where he began studying to become a doctor. And while he was at Howard, he experienced another terrifying event. It was the summer of 1919, which would become known as the Red Summer of 1919. This was a very... Why is it red? Yeah, you're about to find out. This was a very violent time brought on by a lovely combination of racism, a dash of I don't like your kind, a sprinkling of they took our jerbs, and a heaping helping of that there's my woman.

Oh, no. So, yeah, we got all these cooking in the pot. And in dozens of cities and towns across America, white supremacists attacked black people and hundreds of people died in these attacks. So in July of 1919, Washington, D.C. became the site of one of these attacks. There was a rumor that a white woman had been attacked by either a black man or maybe a group of people. And all the white people were like, wait, is this even true? If it is, we should probably let the police figure it out. Just kidding. A mob of white people went into a mostly black neighborhood and just started attacking people. It was absolute insanity. It was terrifying.

people. It was absolute insanity. It was terrifying. In the early stages of the riot, Ocean was walking down the street when he saw a mob of white people force a streetcar to stop so that they could pull a random black man off the streetcar and beat the shit out of him. Once again, Ocean had witnessed horrific, violent racism. He and his fraternity brothers at Howard stayed in their frat house for the remainder of the riots. They were terrified to leave. By the end of the riot, three days later, 150 people had been wounded and 15 people were dead. Oh, my gosh. But here's kind of a fun fact. Really? Okay, maybe fun's not quite

the right word, but it's... Anyway, I'm just gonna say it. The DC race riot in 1919 was one of the first where more white people died than black people. Ten white people died and five black people died. So the black people didn't start the riot, but it sure sounds like they finished it. Oh, God. With that terrifying event behind him, Ocean got his medical degree and moved to Detroit, Michigan. But even though the local hospitals needed another doctor, they didn't want a black doctor. So Dr. Ocean Sweet ended up working at restaurants when he should have been working at a hospital. Wow.

But he had studied forever to become a doctor, so he didn't want to give up. There was a pharmacy in town, and it turned out the pharmacist was willing to rent Dr. Sweet some office space. So Dr. Ocean Sweet began serving patients, many of whom had never had access to medical care before. I mean, this was huge. He was making a difference, not only by just literally helping people by being a doctor, but by being a black doctor. What he had accomplished was extraordinarily unusual at the time. Okay, this was a time when scientists were literally saying things like, oh, well, black people have smaller brains than white people. And people believed that shit. But here was Ocean,

who was living proof that perhaps those scientists could go shit in their hats. Oh my gosh. Are you worried about the hats, Brandy? I'm really worried about all the hats that are soon to be shit-filled. Yeah.

So Ocean was living his life. He was an inspiration to his 10 siblings and he met a woman named Gladys Mitchell and they got married in 1922. And the next year he was like,

hey, I want to get some more medical training. Why don't I do it in Paris and Vienna? And Gladys was like, hell yeah. So they took off for Europe and they had the most amazing time.

Ocean attended lectures by brilliant doctors and scientists, including a little lady named Madame Curie. And best of all, in Paris, Ocean and Gladys were like, holy shit, the people here treat us really well. He said he felt a kind of freedom that he had never felt before in his life. The white people there were treating him like a fellow human being. Imagine. What a concept. So here's a quick thing. Before they left for the trip, Gladys became pregnant. And this is where the bad news sets in.

This whole time, Ocean and Gladys were in a totally different culture, one where they were being treated as equals. But then, and I'm not sure if this is when Gladys went into labor or if she was just trying to get an appointment during her pregnancy, but at some point they went to the American Hospital in France, where, by the way, Gladys and Ocean had generously contributed to the hospital's latest fundraiser, you know, so of course, yeah, there should not have been a problem. fundraiser you know so of course yeah there should not have been a problem but the american hospital refused to admit gladys because of her race wow yep so we'll take your money but we won't take you as a patient well and gladys and ocean were kind of like huh isn't it interesting that the

one time we've encountered racism in europe, it was at the American hospital. You know, that was not lost on them. But at any rate, about a year later, the couple and their daughter Marguerite moved back to Detroit. And once again, life was pretty good. Ocean began working for Dunbar Hospital, which was the first hospital in Detroit with a mission to serve black patients. Soon, Ocean and Gladys had enough money to buy a house. So let's pause for a quick, real fun talk about housing discrimination. Oh boy.

Don't worry, it's a problem that no longer exists today. Right, I'm so sure. Okay. So let's talk about what housing discrimination looked like back in the day. Back in the day, a neighborhood could get together and literally say, only white people can buy houses in this neighborhood. That was totally. Yeah. Are you not familiar with this? No. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So rules like this were enforced by restrictive covenants, which is still a thing today.

You can't obviously exclude people based on race or anything, but these restrictive covenants were written into property deeds and a restrictive covenant could literally say no black people can buy a house here or no Jewish people can buy a house here. Or it could say something that was aimed at people with low incomes. And those restrictive covenants would say things like the homes in this neighborhood can only be single family dwellings. You can't have multiple families living under one roof. Or the homes in this neighborhood can't be broken into apartments. So this is totally just my guess. And I don't even know that I'm right. But anyway, I'm kind of guessing that.

Just go all in on it. Okay. I'm guessing that these types of restrictive covenants which were aimed at low-income people were popular because it was like more polite than straight up saying people of color can't live here and so the white people got to be more polite while still keeping people of color out of the neighborhood that's my guess wow but, I think I could be totally wrong because it doesn't seem like people were very worried about seeming racist in 1925. So right. Yeah. Anyway, but here's the interesting thing. When Ocean and Gladys were shopping for their new home, obviously, they were

barred by law from buying a house in a neighborhood with restrictive covenants that specifically mentioned black people. But they could buy a house in a neighborhood with restrictive covenants that were only technically aimed at poor people. Because Ocean and Gladys had money. They weren't poor. But even then, it wasn't a simple process. They had a tough time finding a realtor who would work with them. And then they had an even tougher time finding a family who would sell them their home. Not to mention the fact that if you were a black family living in Detroit, buying a house at this point in time was scary as shit. it. So a little background. From 1915 to 1925, the number of black people living in Detroit shot up exponentially. Detroit was having a huge manufacturing boom, and that brought people from all over the country in search of decent jobs. But in a segregated city, that created a problem.

So there was this big housing shortage you know the so-called black neighborhoods were full so if you wanted to buy a house you had to look at neighborhoods that were predominantly white or in some cases only occupied by white people so okay. You seem concerned, and you should be. I am concerned. I'm mostly concerned because I imagine something of this nature still goes on today. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Being the first... Racism still exists?

You know, I've heard that. I don't know. But, you know, the truth is there are good people on both sides of this issue what that was a that was a little joke oh my god i was really scared there for a second no one's like whoa whoa whoa what once again i am making fun of donald trump as i usually am it's okay he deserves it i legitimately like my heart sped up a little bit there chris and i was like whoa seriously where's this going it did not seem on brand for you but you're like maybe she's mixing it up in a really bad way this quarantine's really gotten been reading a lot of right-wing media stuff conspiracy theories that alex jones he makes

some good points those gay frogs are everywhere brandy my gosh. Did you see the thing that got shared in the Discord today? That's like the YouTube. No. Oh, it's like the song. It's like a song remix of him like talking about gay frogs. It's hilarious. Oh, my God. Okay, I'm going to have to watch that.

Yeah. Yeah. That Alex Jones. What a fucking creep. Yeah. I don't think we have to talk about him in two episodes in a row. You're right. I'm sorry, Brandy.

I know you're a big fan. I'll lay off of him. Stop it. How dare you? So being the first family of color to move into a white neighborhood took a lot of courage, obviously. took a lot of courage obviously here are just a few stories from the spring and summer of 1925 when ocean and gladys were shopping for and subsequently buying a home okay are you ready yes you sound ready i'm not ready i'm i'm very anxious yeah sucks. I told you I had to back out of this story. How far did you get? How far did you get?

Okay, I did research into the actual incident that's going to occur. Not a lot of backstory. And the incident was bad enough for me that I was like, nope. Yeah, you were like, try something else. Yes. Okay, so first, a black family moved into a house on northfield avenue and a crowd of 5 000 white people showed up at the house they threw rocks at it and they threatened to burn it down then a doctor named alexander turner bought a gorgeous home on Spokane Avenue. And I mean, it is incredible.

As soon as his moving truck showed up, a mob formed. People threw things at the house and men stormed in with guns drawn. They held a gun to Dr. Turner's head and asked him if he'd like to sign the house over to them. Oh my gosh. Yeah, he obviously said yes. And with assistance from the police, the white mob made sure that Dr. Turner and his family left the home. Oh my gosh. I shouldn't say left the home. Were forced from the home. Were forced out of the home, yeah. Then another black family was targeted. John Fletcher and his family moved into their new house on Stopel Avenue. They sat down to have a meal. And a white woman just happened to walk by outside. She looked into the window and shock of all shocks, she saw.

Brandy, hold on to your pants. She saw a black family eating dinner. What? And she went fucking nuts. Oh, my God. So she literally just starts shouting. And I'm obviously not going to use the N word, but she she's like, Amber, live here! Ann, live here! So she's screaming.

You know, she's like, they didn't have phones so you could call the police on a local barbecue. But 4,000 people showed up. They smashed every window in the Fletcher's new home. They threatened to lynch the family. Oh, my gosh. But with his family's lives on the line, John Fletcher fought back.

He grabbed a gun and he fired into the crowd. The bullet hit a white teenager in the leg. He and four other people in his home were arrested, but the charges were dropped. You're not going to believe it, but this did not go over super well. I bet it didn't. First of all, I'm amazed that the charges were dropped. Obviously, they should have been. You know, that was clearly self-defense, but still, you know.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm amazed. Yes, I think the charges absolutely should have been dropped i am amazed that they were yeah and i am sure that that did not go over well yeah so on that note on july 11th 10 000 people showed up for a kkk rally on west ford street for totally understandable reasons, the Fletchers never returned to that house, obviously. So I told some of these stories a little bit out of order,

but you get the idea. It was amidst all of this turmoil that Ocean and Gladys were trying to buy their first home. They knew that tensions were high, but they were grown adults with an infant. They couldn't live with Gladys's parents forever. Plus, they were kind of optimistic. Gladys had grown up in a mostly white neighborhood there.

Many years, she'd been the only black girl at an all-white school. And according to her, things had been fine. So I want to just elaborate a little there i read somewhere else by fine it really means that like you know maybe she wasn't welcomed but she wasn't ostracized either so that's what i mean by fine ocean was a little more worried though so when they found a house that they liked that was close to Gladys's parents' house and close to Ocean's work, he really thought it over. It seemed like they were making a good choice. The couple who owned the home, Edward

and Marie Smith, were an interracial couple. Edward was black, and Edward said that he hadn't had any problems in the neighborhood. Okay, side note. Edward was very light-skinned, and in retrospect, it's possible that the neighbors thought he was white. Right, yeah. Because, yeah, okay, you guys will figure it out later. Anyway, Ocean tested things by sitting out on the front porch with Marie. He wanted to see how the neighbors would react to a white woman and a black man just sitting on a porch together. And they got zero reaction. So Ocean was like, huh, okay, maybe this is an OK neighborhood for us to move into. They had to pay way more than the house's market value to get it.

But on June 7th, 1925, Ocean and Gladys bought their first home located at. Oh, I'm ready. Twenty nine oh five Garland Street, Detroit, Michigan. at oh i'm ready 2905 garland street detroit michigan uh the house is still standing and it's now on the national register of historic places you looking at it i'm looking at it right now it's a cute little big sign out front it is a very cute house yeah yeah so word quickly spread that a black family had purchased the home at 2905 garland street but brandy how did word spread so quickly i'm glad you asked yes please just like an old timey game of telephone or what uh it was literally the newspaper oh the newspaper reported it no um but they did run an ad in the newspaper announcing that there would be a public meeting to discuss

how to maintain the high standard of the residential district between jefferson and mac avenues men and women of the district were asked to attend the meeting in self-defense. Defense of what? Well, what could be worse than a black family moving into your neighborhood? How dare they, right? Oh my gosh. So you've got to defend yourself against a doctor moving in next door. You've got to defend yourself against a doctor moving in next door. Yeah. 700 white people showed up to discuss the black family that was moving into 2905 Garland Avenue. The white people were not happy that a black family had bought a house in that neighborhood,

and they were especially not happy that a family like the sweets had bought the house because this was a working class white neighborhood and here came this oh now we got rich black people moving in yes yes oh my gosh so i think this is kind of funny so part of the anger was the fact that here comes the sweet family and they're wealthier than most of the white people in the neighborhood. They're more successful than most of the white people. They're better looking. Huh? And they are better looking.

Probably. They're better educated. They're more well-traveled. You know, none of them had been like hanging out in Paris attending lectures. Yeah. The white people were pissed. At the meeting, the lead speaker told the crowd, when the N-word shows his head,

the white man must shoot. What? Yep. Oh. Obviously, the Sweet family heard about this. They knew that they would face danger. They waited a couple months to move in hoping that people would like calm the fuck down but eventually ocean said i have to die like a man

or live like a coward so he bought 10 guns and 400 rounds of ammunition and he called the police he told them the situation he's like i, I'm a black man. I'm trying to move my family into our new home. We need protection. Please help. The day they moved in, Ocean and Gladys left their daughter at Gladys's mom's house. And on September 8th, the couple, along with Ocean's brothers, Otis Sweet, who was a dentist, and Henry Sweet, who was a student at Wilberforce University, and a couple of male friends headed off for the house. So they're, you know, just waiting for something bad to happen. But nothing happened. They just, like, cleaned the place.

A couple of interior decorators came by. But that evening, things changed. Between 500 and 800 white people showed up. Can you imagine anything more terrifying? No! The interior decorators were so scared that they were like, could we stay the night? And the suites were like, yeah, absolutely.

The next day, when one of the members of the suite family left the house, some white person told them that they'd better get out of the house that night. The Sweets took the threat seriously, but they weren't going to be scared off that easily. That day, they went about their business. They bought some furniture, some insurance guys stopped by to discuss a policy, and the Sweet said, hey, how about you guys stay for a potluck? You know, it was a nice time. Everyone was just relaxing and enjoying each other's company. And then, like, somebody looked outside and goes, oh, my God, look at all these people. There were hundreds and hundreds of white people all over just hanging around the house.

Oh, my gosh. The suites and their friends tried to ignore what was happening. They played cards. They closed all the house. Oh my gosh. The suites and their friends tried to ignore what was happening. They played cards. They closed all the windows. They pulled down the shades. But the crowd kept growing and growing and getting angrier and angrier. It was terrifying. Everyone in the suite home knew the horror stories of other black families who had bought homes in white neighborhoods. And add into that the horrors that each of them had witnessed firsthand. Ocean had witnessed like incredibly traumatic events that occurred at the hands of white mobs. He'd seen a teenager burned alive when he was five. In medical school he'd seen a black man pulled off of public transportation and beaten. And here was a white

mob outside of his own home. There was no question about it. Ocean and his family were in danger. Yeah. The crowd outside got louder. Then at about 815 at night, a taxi showed up. It was Ocean's brother, Otisis and his friend william davis they just wanted to get to the house so they ran from the taxi to the house while the crowd screamed at them and threw rocks at them ocean rushed to the front door to let otis and william in he was terrified the crowd was amped up and that's when the men in the house got their guns. The house was being pelted with rocks. Then someone in the crowd threw a rock that broke an upstairs window.

It was go time. Someone, or more likely multiple someones, inside the sweet home fired their weapon. And two white men were shot. Eric Hoberg and Leon Brenner was shot in the back. Eric survived and Leon died. Police entered the home. They arrested everyone and brought all 11 people who'd been in the sweet home to police headquarters. arrested everyone and brought all 11 people who'd been in the sweet home to police headquarters. Police declined any requests for attorneys, which, uh, you're, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's totally cool,

right? Yeah, you're allowed to do that. Yeah, yeah. They interviewed everyone separately, but they didn't get much. Ocean admitted that he'd given all the men guns. And Henry did admit to firing his gun twice, but he said he'd fired it over the crowd, not into it, and that he'd done it as a warning. But that was all they told the police. No one had seen anything. No one knew anything. They'd all been busy when whatever happened happened. Yeah. One was taking a bath. Another was asleep. OK, I know I'm using my goofy voice here, but this I think it makes perfect sense that these men who were like all denied their attorneys, all denied their rights. We're not like, OK, police, here's the real story. They were yeah well yeah i was in the bath yeah what else were they gonna do exactly yes yeah the sweets and their friends were not

stupid they knew better than to bare their souls to the police yeah everyone was charged with first degree murder murder everyone and murder the murder that's really bad when you commit a murther. Yeah. Everyone was denied bail and everyone's trial would begin on October 30th. This was a huge case. Anyone with half a brain knew that if the people in the suite home that night had been white and they'd shot at an angry black mob, it would have been self-defense immediately. I mean, nothing would have happened. But because the suites were black and because the two men had been the and because it was also seen as self-defense and this all went away. That's right. And that's the end of this case. Not much to it, folks, because police

were like, oh, wow, there was an angry mob of 500 people outside your house yeah what choice did you have they were throwing rocks into your home great i'm sure you did exactly what you needed to do to protect yourself yeah and that's what happened and um that's why no obviously that's not what ended in 1925. No, so because the sweets were black and because the two white men who had been shot were white, I called them white twice. They were double white because the white men that were shot were white. If you attend a rally like this, then you're double white. And that's really bad.

So the suites needed the best defense that money could buy. And they got it. Yeah. The NAACP. Yeah, they did. Brandy knows this part of the story. I do. I know who shows up. So the NAACP sprung into action.

They knew how important this case could be. It would set a huge legal precedent for black people all over the country. They had to win it. So the NAACP hired a big time civil rights attorney named Arthur Garfield Hayes. This guy co-founded the ACLU. He would later represent the Scottsboro Boys, which we did an episode on that. Boy, that was a sad one. This guy was no slouch. But Brandy, am I done with the list here? Nope. You sure are. No, because they didn't just hire Arthur Garfield Hayes. They also hired the

one, the only, good friend of the podcast. You know him from Leopold and Loeb, from the Scopes Monkey Trial, from the Massey Trial in Hawaii. Ladies and gentlemen, put your hands together for Clarence Darrow! In early October, Gladys was released on bail. And just before the trial began the prosecution dropped charges against three of the original 11 defendants so for all you math nerds out there we're now down to eight defendants thank you the trial began in front of a racially diverse jury no it was not I was like wait why is she continuing and then i just registered what you said no it was all white men yeah for sure duh yeah the only impartial people in our society

so in their opening remarks the prosecution told the jury that this case was not about race. Uh, excuse me? It wasn't, Brandi. Quit it. Okay. Love to hear more on that, Jake. Well, here we go. You ready? I hope you've got your listening hat on because you seem very prejudiced against the white people in this. It was all about premeditated murder. Okay.

It had all been a conspiracy on the night of September 9th. What? Hip hip hip. Hip hip hip. Hip hip hip. What? Hip hip hop. What?

The suites premeditated a crowd of 500 to 800 white people gathering outside their home. Hold on. Hold on, Brandy. Where are you getting your information? The crowd was not nearly that big and they were just a bunch of nice folks. Now, let me let me tell you. It was a block party. It was a welcome party. Oh, my gosh. They misunderstood? It was a welcome party. Oh my gosh, they misunderstood

the welcome wagon? That's right. They shot at the welcome wagon. Now who's the bad guy, I ask you? Oh my gosh. Come on. This is the story the liberal media won't tell you.

Now here's the real story, Brandi, if you're willing to listen. On the night of September 9th, a peaceful, totally chill night was ruined by gunshots. And yes, black people have a civil right to live wherever they want to live. But you know what the most important civil right is? What? The right to be alive, Brandy. And the sweets and their evil friends took that right away from Leon Brainerd.

Mm-hmm. Okay. You convinced? Did the prosecution convince you yet? No. no need to hear some more okay here we go as the prosecutor delivered that bonkers opening statement clarence darrow sat at the defense table pointedly working a crossword puzzle we're in a crossword puzzle? He was just like trying to demonstrate how little he cared about this bullshit theory. Yeah. Yeah.

OK, so get this. The prosecution called 70 witnesses to the stand and they described a perfectly lovely, very small gathering they'd all had outside of the sweet's home you know just peacefully yelling at a family to get the hell out of your neighborhood and they were playing catch with those rocks and didn't mean to break that window they forgot the part about like having someone actually catch it that's you, kind of a basic element of playing catch. But still. Well, wait, wait, wait.

Did we say it was a gathering? It wasn't really a gathering because there really weren't that many people at all. Nearly every witness was like, oh, oh, me? Who me? I just showed up because I was curious. I've got a real sense for adventure. It's not that I'm a terrifyingly racist butthole. Witnesses also claimed that they hadn't shown up to harass the suites.

They were just, you know, waiting around. Everyone was waiting. They just all happened to be waiting in front of the suite home. Yeah. What the fuck were they waiting for? So Clarence Darrow was like, people get real. One guy was like, oh, I was just waiting for my wife for an hour. And Clarence was like, did you get impatient?

And the guy said no. and clarence just looked around like what the fuck because everyone had this same bullshit thing of like i oh me who me i was just chilling you know yeah chilling chilling minding my business what's the next line yo salt came along and I couldn't believe this. I swear. I swear. Money's my witness. The brother had it going on like, well, OK, anyway.

Something kind of wicked, wicked. Oh, I'm not shy. So I asked for the digits. You're welcome, everyone. That was beautiful. Then when like 50 more witnesses all had the same story about just waiting outside the sweet home, Clarence was like, let me guess. You were all waiting for your wives. A teenage boy was called to the stand.

I was waiting for my wife, too. I was waiting. I haven't met her yet. For my future wife. Yes. No, so he accidentally fucked up. When prosecutor Robert Toms asked him what he saw that night, little Dwight was like, oh, there was a great number of people and officers.

Fucking teenagers. And then he was like, oh, biscuits. Oh, no. And then he goes, there were a few people there. So Clarence pops up for cross-examination. Just like a handful. And he's like, yo, Dwight, you kind of fucked up there, didn't you? And Dwight was like, uh.

And Clarence said, did a police officer coach you? Did you forget just then to say a few people? And Dwight said, yes, sir. Oh, my gosh. So I think the funniest thing is, is that the prosecution obviously wanted to make it seem as if the crowd that surrounded the suite home that night was really small. crowd that surrounded the suite home that night was really small but by calling yeah 70 witnesses to the stand they kind of disproved their own point right i mean how stupid is that yes it's very stupid but also they are clearly right because this was all a big conspiracy and totally premeditated murder. Am I right or am I right? The defense's cross-examination of these witnesses deserves the wettest of chef's kisses.

On cross-examination, a lot of these witnesses were also like, why, why no? I don't believe in the mixing of blacks and whites. Why? Why do you ask? Is my racism relevant to this case? Is my racism showing? Does that matter? At one point, Clarence Darrow asked a witness to describe what was happening before the shots were fired. And the witness was like, oh, you know, people may have just tossed a few pebbles.

Yeah, that's what i heard that night just the sound of pebbles hitting a house it was really light no big deal pretty quiet and yeah we were trying to get the attention of this real cute girl inside kind of a romeo romeo she didn't hear my boombox that i had hoisted above my head so clarence i mean this is this. So Clarence, I mean, this is, this is amazing. Clarence was like, oh, well, cool. So he went over to the defense table and he picked up one of the stones that had been in the suite's yard that morning. And he turned back, approached the witness and he held the stone out like he wanted the witness to take it. But oopsies, Butterfingers Clarence Darrow dropped the stone. And it made a huge noise.

Uh-huh. The tiny pebble. Uh-huh. Is that not amazing? That's genius. Yeah, this guy's like, oh, yeah, it's just pebbles, just not making. And then, like, Clarence, I mean, come on, definitely pretended to drop the thing. And the sound just reverberated in the courtroom.

That's really good. The prosecution's case was, you know, a little rough. They didn't know who'd fired the shot that killed Leon. They didn't know who'd fired the shot that injured Eric. But it was clear that the shots had come from the suite home. But the defense's case was pretty damn tough too. Even just setting race aside, a self-defense case in this situation would have been so much easier if a member or members of that mob had actually stormed into the house. The fact that they hadn't actually physically gone into the home

made this case a little harder to defend. The defense had a tough job, but their strategy was to get the all-white jury to put themselves in the shoes of the defendants. In the defense's opening argument, Arthur asked each of the defendants to stand. He told the jury about each of them. Then he told the jury, we shall show not only what happened in the house, but we shall attempt a far more difficult task, that of reproducing in the cool atmosphere of a courtroom, a state of mind, the state of mind of these defendants, worried, distrustful, tortured, not half bad. Yeah, no.

No Clarence Darrow, but still. no Clarence Darrow, but still. No Clarence Darrow, but pretty solid. The defense brought forth witnesses who testified as to what the crowd was really like that day. Their first witness was a black man named Alonzo Smith. He said that the crowd looked like it was about a thousand people. He said that he'd just been a passenger in a car near the mob, and someone saw him and yelled, here's an N-word now. Kill him. He's going to the suites. That testimony was critical, but Clarence and Arthur were really banking on the testimony of

Ocean Sweet. They needed Ocean to effectively communicate about his state of mind during the mob attack. Because that's, I mean, that's critical in these cases. And he started to. He told the jury, when I opened the door and saw the mob, I realized I was facing the same mob that hounded my people throughout its entire history. And the prosecution was like, whoa there, whoa, stop, hold up. He turned to Judge Frank Murphy and prosecution was like whoa there whoa stop hold up he turned to judge frank murphy and he was like judge i get that in a self-defense case we want to know about a person's state of mind and i'm happy to hear about that but uh could we hear about his state of mind without this stuff about race no no that's impossible oh come on no all of the stuff i mean all of the

stuff that he witnessed his whole life is pertinent of course it is to his state of mind of course it is the reason the white mob was out in front of his house is because of race. You can't, you can't take race out of it. At this point, things got really tense in the courtroom. Prosecutor Robert Tom said, is everything this man saw as a child justification for a crime 25 years later? And Clarence Darrow was like, uh, race is critical here. What happens to us as children stays in our mind. How this defendant reacted in this situation was shaped by his past experiences. So this was a huge moment because if the judge had wanted to, he could have sided with the prosecution. Oh, my God. But Judge Frank Murphy, who had a heart of gold and the bushiest eyebrows you've ever seen in your life.

You've got to look this guy up. Well, not yet, because there's more. Anyway, he sided with the defense. The jury could still hear about the defendant's state of mind. Thank God. Thank God. Yeah, absolutely. That would have killed the case.

Oh, yeah. So they continued on. Ocean testified about how terrifying that night had been. He talked about the moment that one of the stones finally broke his upstairs window. And here's what he said. Part of the glass hit me. Pandemonium, I guess that's the best way of describing it, broke loose. Everyone was running from room to room.

There was a general uproar. Somebody yelled, there's somebody coming. Everyone was running from room to room. There was a general uproar. Somebody yelled, there's somebody coming. They said, that's your brother. A car had pulled up to the curb. My brother and Mr. Davis got out. The mob yelled, here's N-words, get them, get them. As they rushed in, the mob surged forward 15 or 20 feet. It looked like a human sea. Stones kept coming faster. I ran downstairs. Another window was smashed. Then one shot. Then eight or ten from upstairs. Then it was all over. On cross-examination, the prosecution was like, nice story. Why is it so different from the one you first told police? How is it different? Well, initially, remember, they'd been like,

oh, I was in the bathtub. I was, you know, I didn't see anything. Oh, right, right, right. I get what you're saying, yeah. And Ocean said, I am under oath now. I was very excited then and afraid that what I said might be misinterpreted. That's a pretty good answer.

I think so. Yep. Yeah. In his closing remarks, Clarence Darrow told the jury that the danger of a white mob is not what it does, but what it might do. He also asked them to set aside their own prejudice. He said, you are facing a problem of two races, a problem that will take centuries to solve. If I felt none of you were prejudiced, I'd have no fear. I want you to be as unprejudiced as you can be.

Draw upon your imagination and think how you would feel if you fired at some black man in a black community and then had to be tried by them. Wow. The prosecution's closing argument was all about how this wasn't about race. The white people had gathered outside the sweet home, weren't trying to get the black people out of the neighborhood. And yet someone had died.

We needed justice for that man. Before they went into deliberations, Judge Frank Murphy told the jury, All men are equal under the law, whether they be rich or poor, black or white, humble or great. It is the duty of each of you to reach for justice. Not accurate, or we wouldn't be here at all. Well, it's a good thing to tell the jury, though. Oh, though. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. The jury deliberated for 46 hours. Wow. They couldn't reach an agreement. Judge Murphy declared a mistrial. There was some hope initially that the prosecution wouldn't pursue another trial, but that wasn't the case. First of all, we should pause. Missed trial.

Are you surprised? I am surprised. Me too. I mean, the assumption is that going in during considering the time period and everything that you would just get a guilty but it really does sound like the prosecution my god what a stupid case oh yeah their case was terrible here listen to 70 people tell you how talk about how small the gathering was outside the home yeah and how they were tossing pebbles and just totally nice people yeah give me a break so in the meantime the defense did what they could they put forth a motion you know they're obviously gearing up for another trial the defense put forth a motion that the defendants be tried separately and that motion was granted

oh wow yeah that was huge so at this point everyone was out on bail and the sweet house was set on fire oh my gosh the fire did not consume the house obviously we it's still standing but whoever said it had made their point now it's april of 1926 my notes are a little screwy here would you like to know what i say here i sure would under mission law you can demand to be tried separately and that's what clarence darrow asked for so um i don't know if you need to hear it a third time you know what bottom line brandy they get tried separately they get tried separately okay i think get it? I think I'm picking it up. It's a really tough concept. So I decided to just reiterate it for you. Yes. The prosecution opted to try Henry Sweet first.

He was their best case. He was the only person who admitted to shooting his gun that night. A lot of this trial was similar to the first, so we won't rehash it. But what was different was that Clarence Darrow was at the top of his game. And I don't mean that in a way like, oh, he kind of sucked the first time. Obviously, he was great the first time, but everyone said that this was like watching the master at work. His closing argument lasted eight hours. Yeah, classic, classic Clarence style. I will now read it to you in its entirety. Don't you dare. What? We're both quarantined. I mean, come on. What are you doing? The prosecution's closing statement was kind of meh because, you know, how do you follow that?

The judge told the jury, if you decide that Henry Sweet aided and abetted in a felonious assault on the crowd that night, then you have to find him guilty. But if you think he fired his gun in good faith and a reasonable belief that he had to repel a riotous attack on the house, then you have to find him not guilty. The jury deliberated for four hours. What do you think they found? Not guilty. They found Henry Sweet not guilty. Oh, thank goodness. In doing so, they told the world that black people have just as much right to defend their homes as white people the following year yeah no shit but come on apparently that really needed to be said the following year the prosecutor dismissed all the charges against the other defendants i mean obviously if he couldn't get the one guy who was saying yeah i shot into the crowd then what were they going to do yep so that's about as happy an ending as we could expect in a case like this.

But this story still doesn't have a happy ending. Did you look into kind of what happened afterward? No. I'm sorry, Brandy. Okay. The same year that all the charges were dropped, ocean and gladys's two-year-old daughter died of tuberculosis no god turns out gladys also had tuberculosis she believes she contracted it in jail oh for the next two years gladys and ocean lived separately. He stayed in Michigan and she moved to Arizona for the drier climate because that was believed to help with tuberculosis. Right. Meanwhile, Leon Brenner's widow brought a wrongful death lawsuit against Ocean. She wanted $150,000 adjusted for inflation. That's $2.2 million.

adjusted for inflation, that's $2.2 million. The case was eventually dismissed, but still. Ocean didn't want to return to the home he'd purchased that had set off so many horrible events, so he put it on the market, but no one wanted to buy it. Finally, in mid-1928, Ocean moved back in to 2905 Garland. It had been sitting vacant this whole time. A few months later, Gladys moved in. And a few months after that, when she was 27 years old, she died.

Of tuberculosis? Ocean went on to run a few small hospitals that mainly served the black community in Detroit, but he struggled over the years. He struggled with his mental health, his physical health, and his financial health. In 1939, his brother Henry Sweet contracted tuberculosis as well and died six months later. Over years ocean sank deeper and deeper into debt and he had to sell the house then on march 20th 1960 after a long complicated battle with his mental health he died by suicide he was 64 oh yeah it's horrible i'm sorry i've got goosebumps this is just it's it's one of those weird things where even when it's considered a victory i was gonna say

the court stuff went the way it should have gone in this case still fucking exactly exactly because like it should have never really even gone to court. And so you just see the effect that this has on people's lives. Even when they win, they don't win, you know? Yeah. The judge who presided over the two trials with the bushiest eyebrows ever would eventually serve on the U.S. Supreme Court. He was appointed by FDR. Supreme Court! He was appointed by FDR.

And, I mean, by all accounts, he seems to have been an amazing judge. In 1944, he wrote a dissenting opinion on Korematsu versus the United States. So he was writing against the racist decision by the U.S. military to exclude Japanese Americans from joining the military during World War II. And that's the story of the sweet trials. I'm sorry. Hated it. Yeah. Hated it just as much as I thought I would.

It's a good story, though. Not really, but it's an important story how about that yes all right yeah it is boy okay now for more good times can we go to the discord and get some fun questions from people we need we need just like yeah double palette cleansers i don't know oh my gosh some sage what do we got to do lighten this thing up why don't you why don't you hit the questions kristin you pick you pick us out some good ones okay okay hang on and you tell them how to get in the discord brandy oh yeah so to get in the discord you just have to join our patreon at the five dollar level or higher that gets you in the discord which is like a 90s style chat room, except there's

no, hopefully no creepers in there asking you your age, sex, and location. Kristen and I are both in there, though, so no promises. It's really a good time. Everybody chats. It's everybody who enjoys the podcast. Our moms are in there. Norm's in there. David's in there. It's a good time. The DP is in there occasionally. Occasionally. I mean, you know, he's always dropping in and out. Oh, he's like Beetlejuice, though. You got to mention him three times before he shows up. Oh, OK.

This is a hard one. Rafiki 737 asks, what have you both learned about each other that you didn't know when you started the podcast? That Kristen shits in Bed Bath and you knew that i never knew that story no i told you that well okay i you heard about that before i told it on the podcast though yeah i guess that's probably totally true i didn't i don't think i knew i don't think I knew all the details of it. Oh, yes, you did. Okay, I told you we were out to lunch, and you about died. You literally about died. I probably did.

All right, maybe that's not accurate. Maybe I knew that. What didn't I know? I'm trying to think what I do. Oh, I do know what I've learned about you that I didn't know. How much you struggle with pronouncing names. Oh, my God. Well, I didn know. I do know what I've learned about you that I didn't know. How much you struggle with pronouncing names. Oh, my God. Well, I didn't know it either. I had no idea.

Otherwise, I would have never been like, hey, you guys can get inducted on the podcast. No, I don't know I'm terrible at this. I had no idea. Let's see. Hmm. What have I learned about you, about Miss Brandy? Well, all the things I'm thinking are just things I've learned over the past couple years, but they're not necessarily podcast related.

Like the fart thing. That's interesting. Do you want to tell people or is this top secret? Do we? No, you, why don't you elaborate? You guys, Brandy doesn't fart in front of the people that she loves. And I think it's a really sad thing. I think that's a perfectly polite and wonderful.

Well, sure. Of course, it's polite. But I mean, like, are you really living? Are you really comfortable if you can't fart in front of family? I don't feel like it's affecting my quality of life in any way. I think you've got to give it a try. I think you've got to get it comfy experiment a little i'm sorry that's just that's how i live i i belch in front of people well sure i know that i'm like a prize belcher prize

really what prizes have you won ma'am i saying, like, I have some pretty quality belches. I learned them from you. Oh, well, thank you. You came to the best. Okay, you know what? I know this is not it, but honestly, nothing has surprised me more through the podcast than you continually saying, make entry into the home. I don't know why you think that's so weird. You said it on like, I want to

say our first episode you said, yeah, yeah, I think it was it was the first episode. And you said, yeah, entry into the home. And I thought, what weird source did she copy and paste that from? That is such no, that's straight. I know it was copy and pasted from your brain. And then it kept appearing in subsequent episodes. And every time I was like made entry into the home, what a weird way of putting it anyway. And then I recently learned that that is, in fact, just you, you know, that's that's real. That's real criminal justice jargon Kristen I learned that in my one semester of law of criminal justice I'm glad you learned something in there I don't know what I learned in law school that anxiety vomiting is a thing maybe that's what I learned okay

oh old-timey disclaimer wants to know first thing you will do once the stay at home order is lifted. Oh my gosh. Oh gosh. So many things. Just see people. That's going to be the first thing. Like, I just want to see people. I want to see my family. I want to see you. day that was like if I had known my last trip to TJ Maxx was going to be my last one in a month I would have gone harder and I thought yes yes yeah like well that's I was just thinking about this today because remember I went and got my pedicure and you were like get a gel pedicure get a gel pedicure and I didn't I got a regular pedicure and I was like if I knew that was the last pedicure I'd ever get in my fucking life like I would have gotten a gel pedicure.

You know what, though? I don't think you were wrong to get it because I have a gel pedicure. And the thing about gels is as they grow out. You can't just take that off. So, no, I think I have been wishing that I hadn't had a gel pedicure. You know, you. In your face. I remember thinking, like, when they announced okay on monday or whenever we're gonna do the stay-at-home order i remember thinking god i wish i could run out and get

a manicure and pedicure and everything right now but then it's like well then then what's the point of the stay-at-home order if we all run out and go do all the things. So I didn't because, you know, I'm amazing is what I'm saying. And what I'm also saying is that my toes look terrible. Mine are still looking okay. So what are you going to do? Are you going to go get a pedicure when this is all done? I mean, I really want to do, like, it's not going to be one thing. It's going to be like I'm going to leave the house for like 17 days and Norman's just going to have to figure it out.

Norman, by the way, totally unaffected by this whole thing. Wow. It is wild. I'm less affected than I thought I would be. I'm way more than I thought I would be. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's funny because you and I had very different reactions to it.

Like I was like, my life is ending. Everything has changed. I hate it. And I was like digging my heels in, stop telling me what I have to do. And you were like, it's fine.

Everything's going to be great. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no. Hold up. Wait a fucking minute. No, no. Brandy, we are not over this. No, no, no, no. Hold up. Wait a fucking minute. No, no. Brandy, we are not over this. No, I did not think that.

But what I did think was that a lot of people were doing the you can't tell me what to do thing. And yeah, in this situation with a global pandemic, absolutely, they can. And absolutely, they should. Yeah. And you have to do thing and yeah in this situation with a global pandemic absolutely they can and absolutely they should yeah and you have to do it it was i was not excited at any point in time trust me but i was like yeah brandy we're gonna have to record remotely that's yeah it's a deal i'm glad we figured that out like can you imagine if we weren't able to do the podcast that would suck it would be terrible super suck because this is like you know it's nice to feel a little normal not that this feels normal looking at your empty seat oh boo is sitting in it though which is kind of fun but still let's see oh oh brandy you're gonna have an opinion on this bob moss the mob boss wants to know help my

friends and i settle a debate is it disgusting to add grape jelly to barbecue sauce when making meatballs for a potluck nope that's totally a thing i agree it's delicious are you gonna tell them what you do so good yeah i don't have mine doesn't have grape jelly in it, but it's a very similar thing. So I do barbecue sauce, chili sauce, and honey. And then like pepper flakes to make them spicy. Oh, then they're like sweet and spicy. And like you get this gooey sauce on them. So good.

It's very similar to the grape jelly meatball recipe. You did those one time for movie night. I can't remember what all we had, but we had like, I mean, it was not, not a healthy time. We had like a crock pot full of meatballs. I think I had like some veggies out, but really it was like chips and dip and like, oh man, my stomach. Cause you know, when the meatballs are small, I'm like, well, you know, I can have 15 or 20 of these.

That's fine. 15 of these puppies. Exactly. Oh, man. A bake girl? I think. If you started another podcast that wasn't true crime, what would it be about? I have no fucking clue.

I don't either. Sounds terrible. Another podcast. Another podcast. hmm i have no fucking clue i don't either sounds terrible another podcast i don't know um yeah i don't know we could do like one of those just like chitter chatter podcasts i kind of don't like those though is, but I I like some chitter chatter mixed in with like, hey, we're all here for a reason. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

I really like celebrity interview podcasts. Oh, yeah. So maybe I would I would enjoy one of those. But what if you didn't know any celebrities? So it was just you interviewing me every week. Well, yeah, that would be the problem. I need to have some kind of connection to celebrities. It's just me and Norm taking turns. Oh, the not okay corral wants to know, play the unpopular opinion game going around on social media what are 10 things you don't like that

most people do okay i haven't played this because i can't come up with 10 but like i'll do it we could probably there are no rules here each we make them up yeah let's let me let me think of three let's see um things that people love that i don't oh the tv show The Big Bang Theory. Oh, yeah. I'm not a big fan of that. Oh, gravy. I don't like gravy. Okay, weirdo. I don't like gravy. The only kind of gravy.

There's one exception. I like sausage gravy for biscuits and gravy, but I don't eat gravy. I don't like brown gravy. I don't like gravy at Thanksgiving. I don't like it. It grosses me out. Why does it gross you out, though? Because it's just like chunks of the carcass floating around in a fat pool. Delicious.

And it's usually salty and I don't really like salty things. Okay. I'll allow it. So gravy. Gravy, that's my first one. And your first one's the Big Bang Theory. I don't know. That was like the most popular show ever yeah yeah uh lord of the rings oh hugely popular not a fan lord of the rings for sure this is gonna break david's heart david wow that's rude no superhero stuff i just don't like the marvel movies and all that not my thing thing. Why is it going to break his heart? Have you been lying to him? He loves them. No, he knows. He knows. But yeah.

No, he loves them. Okay. No, he knows. I haven't been pretending to like them this whole time. That would be really quite the way for him to figure it out. Find out. You know what? I just found out like a couple weeks ago?

What? Okay, Norman and I have been together, no shit, 11 years. He just a couple weeks ago told me that he doesn't like it when I run my fingers through his hair. Really? And I've done it like multiple times a day for 11 years. And I was like, oh my oh my god what why are you just now telling me this and he was like yeah i don't know i just like i didn't tell you for a really long time and then it felt, it has been such a hard

habit to break because like I did it all the time thinking he enjoyed it. And, um, yeah, now, now I'm in an honest marriage, people. It's very tough. Oh, we might cut this one, but Tiffany's wants to know, have you ever done a case that has received a backlash or other unexpected response from listeners? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes, we have. The one that was the most surprising to me was the dating naked episode. to me was the dating naked episode. There was a big backlash over my opinion on that case, and it caught me completely off guard. The one for me, so we did the Brock Turner case, and in it, I went through Brock's excuses for being a big old creepy rapist and we laughed we laughed really hard because his excuse was basically the alcohol made him do it yeah um and it was kind of interesting like we got a not many we got like two emails from people who were offended that we were laughing about rape

which right which and what we were actually doing was laughing at a rapist. Which I think is a world of fucking difference. No, I it's just funny how I don't know. I think there are some subjects where people are like, you can never laugh about this. And yeah, obviously, you'd never laugh at a rape victim. But when you're laughing at the rapist, you're doing the exact opposite. You know, you're what you're doing, I think, is powerful. But yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, I'm totally over it and was not bothered at all. We're totally moved on. Not the least bit defensive okay k wants to know this pandemic has had a negative effect on everyone for many different reasons what's something positive that's come out of this for you guys i think i think if, one of the things that staying at home for a long period of time can teach you is it can be a good clarifier for your life. It's a good clarifier for what's important, because to me, this has been a big clarifier for what's really important for me is to be around my family and to be able to like hug my niece and nephew that that has been so hard to not be able to hug them or play with them you know as like we

would always normally play so that's it helps you see what's really important, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say for me that it's given me a little break to take care of myself and my pregnancy because I work a physical job. I'm on my feet at least eight hours a day, like with very few breaks. You know, I take clients most Most of the time my clients overlap. I'm working on more than one person at a time. Yeah, you like never even eat at work. Fast paced. Yeah. So yeah. So it's been nice to have to as much as I miss that and I do miss it so much. It's nice to have a little break from that and like be able to like take it easy and kind of enjoy being pregnant and all of that. Absolutely. Oh, I've got one more. I've got one more.

Ashley Burke wants to know, what's your favorite 90s scandal? Oh, man. Oh, I know. Tonya Harding, right? Oh, yeah. That was a good scandal. Oh, that's a good one.

That is a good one. I also like Amy Fisher, The Long Island Lolita. I've actually started to do that case a couple times. I'll do it eventually. I've heard that many times before and I'm not going to get my hopes up. I will do it. I promise. I really just like Joey Bafuco's name. Specifically, I like to say Joey Botafuco. This case was made for you, Brandy. That's right. All right.

Well, should we wrap this thing up with some Supreme Court inductions? Yeah, let's do some. Yes. Yes. To get inducted on this podcast, guys, all you have to do is join our patreon at the supreme court level that's seven dollars a month you get access to the discord you get bonus episodes you get a bonus video every month you get a sticker and a card and then you get inducted and this week we are doing what are we doing we are doing favorite movies. All right. Would you like me to name some? Yes, please, my God.

Melanie Flint. It Follows. Katherine Starkey. The Fast and Furious series. Libby Payen. Bridesmaids. Carson McCune. How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days.

Rachel Hyinga. 10-Inch Hero. Adrienne Pastrana. Pan's Labyrinth. Ashley Anderson. Heavyweights. Susie Brunsman. Drop Dead Fred.

Kayla Reichner. Suicide Squad. Peter Allain. Drive. Katie B. Bridesmaids. Amanda Householder. Clue.

Caroline Kurtz Rogers and Hammerstein Cinderella Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. Thank you for continuing to support us in this day and age that we're living in. These are the days we're living in

and thank you for supporting us. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We are on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, obviously Patreon. Please subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, and then head on over to Apple Podcasts, leave us a rating, leave us a review, and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. Adjourned.

Oh, did you say it? No, I didn't. Oh, and thank you to our sponsor for this episode, Best Fiends. Yes. Seriously, download that game.

It's so much fun. I've been having a great time killing time with it when I'm, you know, trapped in my home. Hours and days on end. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from FamousTrials.com, Encyclopedia.com, the Black Bottom Archives, the book We Returned Fighting, the Civil Rights Movement in the Jazz Age by Mark Robert Schneider, and Wikipedia. And I got my info from the Dateline episode Something Wicked, an article for All Things

Interesting by William DeLong, ABC News, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.