Let's Go To Court! - 120: Pizzagate & the Seton Hall Dorm Fire

Episode Date: May 6, 2020

Pizzagate is a wildly stupid, debunked consipracy theory. It goes a little something like this: There’s a pizza place in Washington DC! They have a child sex ring in the basement!! Hilary Clinton and a bunch of other politicians go there to abuse kids!!!!  There’s not an ounce of truth to this story, but that didn’t stop a bunch of right wing fringe “news” outlets from running it. As a result, people believed it. And one man decided to take action. Then Brandi tells us an infuriating story about a dorm fire at Seton Hall. It was the wee hours of the morning in January of 2000, when the fire alarm went off in Boland Hall. Smoke filled the dormitory. Students tried to get to safety, but they’d never had a fire drill. The dorm wasn’t equipped with sprinklers. The smoke was so thick that it blinded them. The fire was traumatizing. Three students died. Fifty-eight were injured. And it all started thanks to a prank.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “How the bizarre conspiracy theory behind pizzagate was spread,” by Craig Silverman for Buzzfeed “Pizzagate Gunman Sentenced to Four Years in Prison,” by Merrit Kennedy for NPR “The Comet Ping Pong Gunman Answers Our Reporter’s Questions,” by Adam Goldman for the New York Times “Comet Pizza Gunman Pleads Guilty to Local and Federal Charges” Washington Post The Affidavit in Support of the Criminal Complaint “Is Comet Ping Pong Pizzeria Home to a Child Abuse Ring Led by Hillary Clinton?” by Kim Lacapria for Snopes.com “Anatomy of a Fake News Scandal,” by Amanda Robb for Rolling Stone In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Seton Hall: The Worst Dormitory Fire In The US” by Seamus McGraw, The Crime Library “Seton Hall dorm fire: A look at where some of the key people are today” by Alex Napoliello, NJ.com “3 Killed in Fire at Seton Hall; Dozens of Students Are Hurt” by Dan Barry, The New York Times “Sean M. Ryan v. New Jersey State Parole Board” justia.com “Boland Hall Fire” wikipedia.org

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Pizzagate.

And I'll be talking about the Seton hall dorm fire oh oh my oh oh oh my you know that i know absolutely nothing about pizza gate do you know anything about this dorm fire not a damn thing wonderful we're about to learn today. Let me tell you something about my case. Yeah. Your brain will hurt. Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, it is. I don't even know the words for it. It is just so sad and scary and ridiculous. Hey, you know what else is scary and ridiculous?

What? Hey, Missouri's plan for reopening the state. Am I that? Do you mean no plan at all? Literally. Okay. Literally. Governor Parsons or whatever the fuck his name is, was like, all right, we're going

to have a press conference today to announce the phased reopening of our state. And then he was like, he tore a piece of paper into little tiny pieces, threw it into the air and was like, oh, fuck it, everything's open. There are no restrictions whatsoever. Yeah, May 4th, here we go. Yes. So I had to take to Twitter to tweet about it. I must say it was a hot tweet.

No, but for real, I i do my hat goes off to him for doing so much to reinvigorate the funeral business oh my gosh what what uh you got you're getting me all fired up again here's the deal though i'm making you know fun of missouri as a as a kansan we're a very easy target kansas has released no information yet so we could be right there with you we'll find out maybe today maybe tomorrow who knows I just, you know, I was, okay. I have heard, and this drives me nuts, when people say, well, I see both sides of this. No shit. Anyone who isn't an idiot sees both sides of it. We don't want people to die.

And at the same time, we want people to be able to feed their families and you know not lose their houses there there has to be a middle ground i mean we've got to get better stimulus checks out anyway anyway i'm i'm good i'm fine it's fine um do you want to talk about what my dad said about us okay so yes we've been roasted by your dad yeah if everybody wants to get out their um their 10 pounds fun fact journals this would be a good place to jot this down um what episode was it that he is referencing to you it's your your case, Kristen. It's your case. Well, I know, but you're the one with the memory.

I know, but it's the Peacock Alley case. The lady who shot the man with the pin. Oh, God. Hell damn fart. Let me look it up. Sorry for using such harsh language. That was really harsh language. Oh, it's episode 118, The in the trunk okay okay so in that case you talk about

how this woman um is belongs on peacock alley or peacock lane or whatever the fuck it was and because she knew all of these people including the breckenridges of kentucky and i was like i'm sorry am i supposed to know the breckenridges of k? And you're like, no, I don't know who they are either. So my dad texts me. Hold the phone now, Brandy. I did say that they were, you know, we had a vice president involved. You thought there was a vice president involved. That was your knowledge.

Hey, partial credit for that answer, I think. So my dad texts me and he said, this is a direct quote of the text. Wow. Astounded by the lack of knowledge. John C. Breckenridge was the VP of the U.S. at the onset of the Civil War. He resigned and enlisted in the Confederate Army and became the Confederate secretary of state. Also, he was Mary Lincoln's cousin and caused poor Abe a bunch of grief because of it. So a couple of things to take away and to jot down in your 10 pounds fun fact journal.

My dad loves the Civil War. Like he's super interested in it, has like a million books on it. Also is apparently on a first name basis with Abraham Lincoln. Okay, but you didn't read the whole text thread because my favorite was the shade. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I said, wow, I didn't know any of that. And he said, obviously, you did go to school, right?

And he spelled school S-K-O-O-L. I tell you what, your dad throws about as much shade as some of these reviewers. And that is really saying something. That is right. But hey, if like Tim Pounds, you are a little critical of us, but you still enjoy to listen, we've got more for you on Patreon. How smooth was that transition? That was so good. Oh, thank you. You guys, at the $5 level, here's the deal. On Patreon, you get bonus episodes,

you get into the Discord. That's it. At the $7 level, you get to listen to bonus episodes. I think we've got nine of them right now, or is it 10? It's nine. It's nine. No, it's 10. 10. Maybe join and find out. So we've got bonus episodes. We also at the $7 level have bonus videos. And those are a hoot. Let me tell you, you also get a sticker, our lovely autographs, you get into the discord and you get inducted on this very podcast not some other random podcast this one my goodness my goodness the rewards we do officially have 10 bonus episodes okay i'm sorry i also have to be super professional right now i am having the hottest of flashes all of a sudden i need to take my sweatshirt off which means i have to be super professional right now. I am having the hottest of flashes all of a sudden. I need to take my sweatshirt off, which means I have to take my headphones off. So hold.

How old are you? Hottest of flashes? I'm pregnant, Kristen. Hold on. Pause. Okay. While she's doing that, you guys should know that Brandy has broken world records by being 85 and pregnant. And you know, it may not be the most responsible thing, but it's her body, her choice. And I'm just really excited for her. I'm sorry.

What were you saying while I took my sweatshirt off? Don't worry. I was just being a pro while you took your sweatshirt off, took your headphones off, you know. I doubt that. I'm like literally sweating right now. I don't know what's happening. Well, like I said, you are. Well, no, no if you're 85 you would be way past the change well yeah you'd be changed uh past tense past tense okay we we are

fucking around too much here all right we got it i was about to talk to us about one more gross thing real quick that i think you'll love um did you hear that um oh fuck now i can't remember his name hold on pause why i want to give false information this is like every time my mom and dad tell me about a dateline episode they watched it's always wait no what okay i was pretty sure I had the information correct, but I needed to double check my source. Richard Gere, you familiar with the actor? Of course. 70 years old.

Okay. He just welcomed a baby with his 37-year-old wife, Kristen. How do you feel about that? Ew. I mean, you know, congratulations, but ew. What do you feel about that? Ew. I mean, you know, congratulations, but ew. What do you think about that age gap? Why can't we, like, play amongst our age cohort, you know? Like, is that so bad to marry someone or date someone who has roughly your same experience level?

Yeah. I'm not a big fan. I mean, age gaps don't actually bother me as much as they bother you. But that one's pretty bad. Well, yeah. I mean. Yeah. You didn't talk about pizza?

Oh, yeah. And a gate. Excellent. OK, so you know nothing about this? No. gate excellent okay so you know nothing about this no all literally all i know is the little blurb you gave me when we went on our little alex jones stanchion that one day here's here's what i will tell you brandy buckle the fudge up click okay okay so to start off i want to give a huge shout out to the article,

How the Bizarre Conspiracy Theory Behind Pizzagate Was Spread by Craig Silverman for BuzzFeed. Great article. Once I get into the actual building of this conspiracy theory, I mean, I am basically telling you his article. So big shout out to him. All right, here we go. So big shout out to him. All right, here we go. Let's talk for a few torturous seconds about Hillary Clinton's emails. Excellent. Okay, so I do want to pause and just be like, you know, I'm doing this with big broad strokes, because we've got a lot to cover. And also because like, Hillary Clinton's emails are kind of a nothing burger. But here we go. Okay.

When Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State, she used a private email server, which was something that other secretaries of state had done in the past, but nonetheless is not great. So the FBI investigated the issue. And at the end of the investigation, the FBI director James Comey was like, yeah, this whole thing was extremely careless, but it's not criminal. Everybody go home. So it seemed like the issue was done, but it was not. Thanks in part to a douche lord named Anthony We wiener do you remember anthony wiener yeah doesn't he have a

mistress like an escort escort mistress or something i just remember it being funny like a sex scandal came out his name's wiener oh yeah yeah okay yeah so here's the deal anthony wiener aka carlos danger aka Carlos Danger, was a congressman for 12 years, but he resigned because he loved taking pictures of his ding dong and sending them to random women online. Okay, so I don't know if you remember the inciting incident, but but like he took this picture of his dong with his underwear on i mean that seems to be kind of his like fetish it's not like full dong it's just like you know i don't know we're not talking full dong here i'm well i you know i'm trying to decide how delicate I want to be about it, but it's like, okay.

What are we talking? Just the tip or? What do you mean just the tip? No, it's like, okay, picture. Now you're, you're, you're just pushing me right in the pool, aren't you? Okay. I'm trying to dip my toe in. You've thrown me in.

No, he, um, got quite excited, kept his boxer briefs on, and took a picture. Oh, so we're talking about like a whole dong outline. That's right. Thank you. Yeah, the outline. All right. Yeah, boy, that would have been a much nicer way of putting it. More of a silhouette situation.

Yeah, more of a leaving just a bit to the imagination. So here's the deal. We've seen the outline of Anthony's wiener. Okay. Carlos Danger to you, ma'am. So, you know, he's got this, you know, very tasteful, arty shot of his dog outline. Here's my question. Okay.

Do we think that it's like a stuffed situation? Because why not show the whole thing? Okay. You we think that it's like a stuffed situation? Because why not show the whole thing? Okay. You know what? Hmm. Hmm. I had not considered that. All right.

Here's the thing, though. He takes multiple dong photos, dong outline photos. So I suppose if we really wanted to be good researchers, we could go and see. But you know, compare and contrast. Yeah, like if one day he's looking particularly

blessed, we would know that he occasionally steps. I think endowed is the preferred term. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway. All right. Continue.

Sorry. Yeah. No, no, that's okay. A dong tangent is perfectly fine on this podcast. So the inciting incident was that, you know, he takes this picture of his ding dong. He's wanting to send it to- What are we clapping for? Did I clap?

I mean, it sounded like a clap to me i don't know what else you're doing i clap for any ding dong shot just like well done sir bravo no so he takes this shot of his ding dong and oopsies you know he's a congressman oopsies he sends it out from his Twitter account. Oh, God. He tweets this post. Whoops. Okay. I did not write this part down because it's not, like, super important, but, I mean, I have to tell you now. So, you know, of course, what does he do?

He immediately is like, he deletes it, and then he's like, oh, my gosh, I was hacked. I was hacked. Of course he does. Yes. So he did this interview though. I think it was with Wolf Blitzer. And so he's telling Wolf Blitzer like, oh, you know, I was hacked. And Wolf Blitzer's like, well, you know, okay. Okay. Um, so you were hacked, but like, is that you? Was that your dong? And like, Anthony Weiner was totally unprepared. He didn't expect that question? He, I mean, he just fumbled and just kind of, oh, blah, blah. And the whole time Wolf Blitzer's looking at him like, dude, you would know if that was a picture of your ding dong, right?

I mean. So anyway. Did you recognize the dong pictured? I think that's the funniest part it's like okay yeah you can be hacked but like we all know what underwear we have we like you know i think we'd spot our our outlines you know right yeah if you were if you were to get a lineup of dong outlines, you'd probably pick out your own, right? I would think so. I mean, like, how many dong outline pictures would you have to have to be like, you know, I just can't say.

I can't say for sure. So Anthony Weiner resigned. But then a while later, after he was like, sorry, sorry, sorry, I won't ever do that again. He ran for mayor. But during that campaign, oopsies, it was revealed that he had continued to send out pictures of his dong even after he'd resigned from Congress. Oh, no. I know. I mean, talk about a very proud man.

I mean, you just got to let people see it. Okay, this will shock you, but he did not win his mayoral campaign. Yes. But don't worry. He learned a lot from that experience, and he was super done taking photos of his ding dong. I don't think he was. No, no, he wasn't. In August of 2016, he sexted another woman.

And get this, he sent that picture of his dong, you know, covered again by his undies. And his young child was in bed next to him in the photo. Yeah, it's disgusting. It's disgusting. We're taking dong pictures while your kid's there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, not a fan.

Nope. Also, what was that woman thinking? Like, what would the reaction be? You think you're exchanging sexy pictures and you get a picture of, like toddler in there yeah yikes yeah no i'm kidding call the police immediately yeah so at this point anthony weiner's wife was like deuces i am out a month later he was accused of sexting a 15-year-old girl from North Carolina. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. This incident obviously sparked a criminal investigation and Anthony Weiner's laptop

was seized by the FBI. Okay. But what the hell does Anthony Weiner have to do with Pizzagate? Yes, please fill us in. Okay. You see, Anthony Weiner is married to Huma Abedin. Are you familiar with her? No. Okay. She is a literal goddess. She has amazing hair, great taste in lipstick, and she is also a very close longtime advisor to Hillary Clinton. Okay.

I think you should look her up. Huma Abedin. Okay, hold on. Let me. I know that I've seen a picture of her. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I just like this woman.

Yeah. She is so crazy smart and beautiful. I'm sorry you didn't even mention her teeth. Hello. Okay, fine. She's perfect in every way't even mention her teeth. Hello. OK, fine. She's perfect in every way. She has perfect teeth. Except she's got this like the worst husband on earth. Yes.

Yes. OK. So like I said, she is a very close longtime advisor to Hillary Clinton. I believe at one point Hillary Clinton even said, you know, obviously I have a daughter named Chelsea, but if I had another daughter, it would be Huma. Like that's how close these two are. I'm kind of distracted by these Anthony Weiner pictures next to his gorgeous wife. Like, I know he looks like a Weiner. Yeah. He's, he's a ridiculous human. Okay. Continue. I have to close this.

Distracted by Wieners, as usual. So, of course, on that laptop that Anthony Wiener was using were emails between Huma Abedin and Hillary Clinton. And I'm assuming some of them must have been classified. Abedin and Hillary Clinton. And I'm assuming some of them must have been classified. So the FBI was like, hmm, these emails might be pertinent to the investigation that we did this past summer into Hillary Clinton's private email server. So with just 11 days until the election, then FBI Director James Comey made the controversial decision to announce to Congress that the FBI was reopening their investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails. And of course, huh? Mmm.

I just said mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Spicy. Get ready to experience an all new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9 percent, delivery credits up to $1,500 and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. A proud member of, Don Valley North for Lexus.

A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. And of course, the public found out about the reinvestigation in like 2.5 seconds. And it was a huge controversy. Hillary supporters were concerned and Hillary haters were like, Knew it. Go get her, boys. Clearly, something was up. Lock her up. Lock her up. Two days passed. It was October 30th, 2016. We're just like a little over a week away

from the presidential election. The FBI was doing their thing, investigating. But you know, the general public wasn't privy to the details of the investigation. We wanted to know what was going on, but we would have to wait for the investigation to end in order to find out what was really going on with Hillary Clinton's emails. Then, all of a sudden, a very well-connected, 100% trustworthy source came forward with a 100% true story. Naturally, it was posted to Facebook. That's where I get all my news. We get all our news from Facebook.

It came from someone who used a photo of a cat as their profile picture. They claimed their name was Carmen Katz. And apparently this well-connected super sleuth hailed from the great state of Missouri. Here's what Carmen had to say about the FBI's renewed investigation into Hillary's emails. Are you ready? Yes. Okay, hang on to your hat. It gets bad. My NYPD source said it's much more vile and serious than classified material on Weiner's device.

I'm sorry, I'm so immature. Weiner's device. The... I'm sorry. I'm so immature. Wiener's device. The email details the trips made by Wiener, Bill, and Hillary on their pedophile billionaire friend's plane, the Lolita Express. Yup. Hillary has a well-documented predilection for underage girls, and Mr. Wiener just could

not bear to see those details deleted. girls. And Mr. Weiner just could not bear to see those details deleted. We're talking an international child enslavement and sex ring. Not even Hillary's most ardent supporters and defenders will be able to excuse this. Over the course of three hours, that post received a whopping six likes. Clearly. Wow. Are you not impressed, Brandy? Six whole likes. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Clearly, this jaw dropping story deserved a bigger platform. OK. Mm hmm. So a 100 percent real person on Twitter going by the name David Goldberg, who, by the way, also enjoyed chilling on white supremacist forums like you do, screenshotted Carmen Katz's Facebook post and shared it to his Twitter followers with the following text. Rumors stirring in the NYPD that Huma's emails point to a pedophila. I think he means pedophilia. Pedophila. Is that worse?

He was so excited he couldn't get it all right, okay? A pedophila ring and at Hillary Clinton is at the center. Hashtag go Hillary. Hashtag Podesta emails 23. Have you heard people pronounce it pedophilia? Yes, that's the British way. I don't like it at all. So you love

pedophilia. Yes, I love pedophilia, hate pedophilia. Wow, Brandi. I hate them both. Although, I pronounce it pediatrician. I don't say pediatrician. Please start calling it pediatrician. This tweet garnered more than 6,000 retweets and more than 5,000 likes.

Wow. We were officially cooking with gas. A few hours passed. Let's hop off of Twitter and Facebook and instead go to an obscure message board where conspiracy theories are very much encouraged. Brandy, it was on this message board that a brave, well-connected, 100% truthful person shared more details about this developing story. Here's what they said. Subject line.

Breaking. It's worse than classified emails. Political pedophile sex ring exposed. Oh my gosh. Are you saying that because you're so alarmed by the exposed pedophile ring? Yes. Pedophile ring. Yeah. Okay. Here's the body of the message. Here's what it said. I have inside sources and can confirm privately to Ahmaud my credentials. There are at least six members of Congress,

several top leadership from federal agencies, and others all implicated in a massive child trafficking and pedophile sex ring. This was being directly ran with the Clinton Foundation as a front. Hillary, Bill, all of them knew slash know and were active participants. DC and the FBI, DOJ fear a complete loss of public support for the federal government. This will be breaking on the next few days. Leaks are also coming. Both parties, all levels of government. It's about to come apart. How do we know that leaks are coming?

Do we get warning when leaks are going to happen? That's your issue? I'm just saying. You know, OK, I hadn't even thought about that. You know, OK, I hadn't even thought about that. But now that I'm thinking about it, it's it's great for this kind of environment to say leaks are coming, because then if someone else comes forward with something that even smells a little like bullshit, but is kind of along these same lines, it's like, well, we knew we knew more was coming. Maybe this is part of what was coming needless to say this was pretty disturbing stuff and clearly shit was about to go down we just heard about it yeah the leaks are coming yeah the leaks are coming and here they come

the next day a website called Your Newswire, which the Poynter Institute has called one of the most infamous misinformers on the internet, ran a story about this 100% real political pedophile sex ring. In that story, the author cited a source. You see, he'd gotten this info from an FBI insider. Had he talked to this FBI insider directly? No, of course not. Had he verified that this person worked for the FBI? Hell no. The source for this article came from a 4chan message board where some rando anonymous user calling themselves FBI Anon shared the following information. Okay, so these are just the greatest hits.

Are you ready? Yeah. Okay, so the basic thing was Russia is awesome. The Clintons and other people in the government are heavily involved in a sex trafficking scandal. Hillary Clinton accepts political donations in the government are heavily involved in a sex trafficking scandal hillary clinton accepts political donations in the form of children oh obviously i'm sorry is that not something everyone was aware of yeah you can do paypal you can do a credit card or just a young child. A young child. Also, she rapes kidnapped girls.

So, yeah. Oh, also, Bill Clinton will die in 2016. Well. Spoiler alert, he's still kicking today. Still doing just fine. Also, and here's an interesting take uh blacks are this is a quote blacks are violent and generally impulsive but they are not all bad what yeah yeah oh my gosh so uh yeah nothing to question here, right?

Seems all 100% real. All on the up and up. So now things were really taking off. And you know what? I assumed that the person who wrote this article was a man. I guess I don't technically know because that article has been taken down. Anyway, moving on. Now things were really taking off.

Once that article came out, other pro-Trump propaganda sites, you know, right wing bullshit started posting similar stories. This conspiracy was taking off like wildfire. But here's the thing. It's no fun to just repost what other people have posted. Sometimes when you see your friends making shit up, you want to add your own spin to it. So another douchey website called subjectpolitics.com, which I hate it when these websites have like legitimate sounding. Yeah.

I mean, I guess that's part of the charm. Yeah. have like legitimate sounding yeah i mean i guess that's part of the charm anyway so they ran yeah if we could if we could all just get together and make sure all the shady websites have like a dot net that'd be great dot bullshit yeah so they ran the story but they added i mean if i may a very exciting new twist oh this was their headline it's over nypd just raided hillary's property what they found will ruin her life and then they ran this super cool picture of two like NYPD, you know, looks like detectives walking away from a van that was labeled police crime scene unit. And they both had these big evidence bags in their hands. Problem is, you can't really tell where they are. And obviously you can't see what's in the bags.

So to be super helpful, the editors placed a picture of Hillary Clinton on top of that image. And in that picture, she's looking like super upset. And the image of Hillary Clinton has this thick red border and big red arrows pointing to the bags of evidence. So, you know, it's super clear Hillary Clinton is upset and she's upset about the big bags of evidence that will ruin her life. So do you remember when they did this raid on her property? It was crazy. Yeah. So obviously that never happened, who cares this story was super popular online people were fired up shit was going down other fringe net jobby sites started picking up this version of the story but once again who wants to just share another site's story when you can make one of your own?

Right. So another site put their own newer spin on it. Here was their headline. Breaking bombshell. Which I feel like you pick one or the other. Yeah. You can tell we're not dealing with the top brass here. Breaking bombshell.

NYPD blows whistle on new Hillary emails. Money laundering. Sex crimes with children. Child exploitation. Pay to play. Perjury. Again, not a good headline, right? I mean, I hate to give out tips to these folks. But I would

say, you know, who cares about perjury when you've got sex crimes with children, I just shorten up, I tighten up the writing quite a bit. Tighten it up, enlarge the font. I mean, bada bing, bada boom. Okay, so by this point, I feel like I should also say, um, hmm, you know, I thought about saying this in the beginning. Obviously, I'm very politically liberal. And I hope this doesn't come across as like, making fun of Republicans or moderates. I am making fun of the fringe here, the nut job fringe. Do you think that needs to be said? I mean, I think it's good that you said it but no i don't i think that that's pretty clear okay okay here we go so by this point

it has only been three days since that original facebook post and tweet wait the facebook post with the six likes or yeah yeah it's been three days since then and man how things have changed all of a sudden hillary clinton's property is getting raided you know it's the things are really taking off it's very exciting also perjury right i mean yeah wow so you know david goldberg putting that in quotation marks on twitter was the guy who tweeted this whole big thing and he was watching this all go down and he was super proud of himself he tweeted my source was right and he linked to one of these bullshit articles so now it's like this whole circle of shit where like there's all this bullshit and people are like oh this other site said the same bullshit so it must be true

yeah but they're all the same bullshit site. Here's the frustrating thing, though. Clearly, these very stable geniuses had uncovered a very serious crime. And clearly, Hillary Clinton and a bunch of other politicians were involved in a child sex ring. There was no doubt about it. Yeah. Duh. There was just one problem. politicians were involved in a child sex ring there was no doubt about it yeah duh there was just one problem the mainstream media wasn't reporting on any of it weird and no one from

the fbi or the nypd was willing to go on record imagine that well it was a big cover up, obviously. Oh, yeah. It wasn't because none of it was true. What were the nut jobs to do, Brandy? What were they to do? Well, they were to launch their own investigation. By this point, thanks to WikiLeaks, the Clinton campaign chair John Podesta's emails were readily available for light reading. So these investigators read the emails.

And you won't believe what they found. Turns out, John Podesta was very involved in the child sex ring. In fact, he wrote all about it in his emails. More, please. I was waiting for a reaction. randy are you are you shocked at the audacity of someone writing directly about the child sex ring in an email um i need more information before i decide how alarmed i am by it okay okay so here's the deal he wrote in code so you had to know the code in order to understand how bad it was. While you think this is a harmless email about shoes, you trade in the word child sex slave

every time they got shoes written in there. Okay. You have basically hit the nail on the head i am serious so these oh my god these dum-dums they thought they'd cracked the code are you ready to hear the code yeah okay okay here we go anytime you see the word hot dog. In John Podesta's emails. That means boy. Okay. When you see pizza. That means girl.

Okay. When you see cheese. That means little girl. Okay. When you see cheese, that means little girl. Okay. And when you see pasta, that means little boy. Ice cream means male prostitute. What? Walnut means person of color. Map means semen. And of course, sauce means orgy.

Of course, obviously. Duh, duh. I mean, so you see an email about a cheese pizza with extra sauce. I mean, all of a sudden, you know, first glance, it looks like a nothing email. But now that we know the code, we know that that is deeply disturbing stuff. By the way, every time I've asked if you wanted to go out for ice cream, I was always speaking in code. I always wanted a male prostitute and you never took me up on it. And you never took me up on it. So this is so sick and so sad.

But by this point, this insane story was being seen by so many people. Alex Jones of InfoWars, close personal friend of the podcast. Brandy loves him. Don't you dare spread that rumor no we hate this guy he's the worst i was talking about hillary clinton being a child murderer which i believe i believe he said literal child murderer which it's like okay you know it's one of those things you are or you're not you don't need to add the word literal to it. Reddit in particular was all over this. Members of the subreddit The Donald created a new subreddit called Pizzagate so that geniuses could get together and really crack this case wide open.

And boy, did they. Mm hmm. OK, so, you know, they decoded John Podesta's email. Yeah. And even more troublingly, they discovered. OK, and please try not to be too disturbed. That there was a pizza shop in Washington, D.C., where this whole thing was going down. Oh, yeah?

Yes, Brandy. Okay. Are you ready? I've never been more ready. There's a pizza joint in Washington, D.C. called Comet Ping Pong, or sometimes just called Comet Ping Pong, or sometimes just called Comet. It is located at 5037 Connecticut Avenue, Washington, D.C. Get ready to experience an all-new Dawn Valley North Lexus. Dawn Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around

the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500, and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models a proud member of wayne's auto group okay so i don't know how well you can see it comet is the kind of dark green pizza shop it's kind of covered up by some trees you see it yeah real cute okay uh i'm sorry uh not real cute it's clearly a child sex ring yeah it's a child sex ring i'm sorry i not real cute. It's clearly a child sex ring. Yeah, it's a child sex ring. I'm sorry. I should never say that about a child sex ring.

That's right. So it's been on diners, drive-ins and dives. And, you know, Guy Fieri was like, great pizza, better child sex ring. They've been profiled in the Washington Post. It's just a fun pizza joint. They've got a back room the Washington Post. It's just a fun pizza joint. They've got a back room filled with ping pong tables. Sometimes they have live music.

You know, occasionally they have the child sex ring. You know, it's all just part of the charm. Yeah. I should probably mention, I'm kidding, and Guy Fieri never said that. I don't want us to get sued. Can you imagine if we got sued by Guy Fieri? Take us all the way to Flavortown. I can't afford to go to Flavortown. Okay.

So Comet Pong is owned by Comet Pong. I think I just, like, gave it a whole new name. It's either Comet Ping Pong or just Comet. I'm sorry. This poor owner has been through enough. Comet is owned by James Alefantis. And over the years, he's hosted quite a few fundraising events for Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. He's never actually met Hillary Clinton, but you know, a few fundraising events there. So that's probably why he's in John Podesta's emails.

Right. Naturally, I don't have to. Kristen, I'm sorry. Have you not been paying attention to this? There's a child sex ring happening here. Right. That's why he's in the email. He's in there because of his involvement.

Yes. So obviously, this place is clearly the site of the child sex ring that we've all heard so much about okay shocking i know so the nut jobs began investigating james aliphantis and his spooky pizza shop and they shared their findings on the pizzagateate subreddit. And here's part of what they said. We recently found the Instagram account of James Alefantis. The contents of it are indescribably bizarre, and the contexts of the post and comment chains are weird. Alefantis does not have any children, nor do his closest associates, but the photos seem to be a near

constant assortment of different children of a variety of ages intermingled between posts about gay bars clubs photos of common rape drugs and piles of foreign currency after it be can we pump the brakes here for a second I'm sorry what? photos of common rape drugs yeah you know how like you just like on Instagram you know you brag about your life so you're like here's a photo of my niece

here's a photo of my nephew here's a photo of a big pile of foreign currency here's my favorite rape drug you know we all get it. It's totally normal stuff. So this this person says, you know, basically, hey, I I looked through all these photos, you know, so disturbing, so strange. Did it all last night. Went back today to look again now it's on private so I did just the slightest bit of digging and I believe that the photos of like kids and people were like people who had liked comet pizza

and like so they'd like I assume they gave their permission to have their photos shared on the Instagram account I don't I don't really know. But you know, anyway, there wasn't a shred of truth to the idea that there was a child sex ring, let alone that it was being operated out of a very specific pizza shop. But it didn't matter. Because people believed it. They began harassing the restaurant staff. They threatened the restaurant owner. They barraged the restaurant with nasty Yelp reviews. They threatened bands who had performed at the restaurant before. They even called and threatened nearby restaurants.

I guess for the crime of being nearby? I don't even know. I don't even know I don't even know it was so interesting to read about like some of these bands who had like performed a couple years before it all of a sudden they're getting all these trolls and they're like what are you guys talking about two years ago we performed at a pizza joint and you're you're mad oh it was nuts. The Comet pizza owner, James, told the New York Times, from this insane fabricated conspiracy theory, we've come under constant assault. I've done nothing for days but try to clean this up and protect my staff and friends from being terrorized. By the way, just an aside, two days before the election, the FBI

announced that they'd concluded their investigation. And yeah, there was a child sex ring, and it was definitely in the basement of Comet Pizza. And Hillary Clinton showed up every Tuesday. No, the FBI came to the same conclusion that they came during the first investigation. This was nothing criminal. Hillary Clinton's emails were a nothing burger. Then, of course, the election came. And with the help of our Russian comrades, we got a new president, Donald Trump. And everything's been super great ever since.

We are so tired of winning. So Hillary lost the election. What? You can't joke about that. Is it too soon? I mean, it happened quite a few years ago, but it's still too soon. It hurts too much. So, you know, Hillary lost the election, but this Pizzagate story was not over. I mean, what do you think? She and all the other politicians just stopped abusing children? No, it was still going on. At least that's what a man named Edgar Madison Welch thought. What's Edgar got to say?

Edgar actually goes by Madison for obvious reasons, but I'm choosing to call him Edgar. So Edgar was 28. He lived in Salisbury, North Carolina. Oh my, poor Edgar's 28. I was picturing a 67 year old man. I mean, I'm married to a young boy named Norman, so. I probably shouldn't call him a young boy in a story like this. I'm married to a pasta named Norman. So he had recently had internet installed in his home and he had been following the pizzagate story very closely he had he had recently had internet installed in his home okay your privilege is showing not everybody

not everybody got internet in the 90s when the AOL disks came to their home. Do you remember when we got those little disks in the mail? Yeah. Our AOL dial-up, yes. Oh, hell yeah. So he'd apparently been watching a ton of InfoWars with Alex Jones, as you do. And, of course, Alex Jones was saying that Hillary Clinton was sexually abusing kids in the basement of Comet Pizza. And he'd also been watching a ton of YouTube videos about

Pizzagate where, you know, brave young men were spouting the truth. So I struggle with how to feel here, but Edgar had two daughters of his own, and he believed every word of this made-up story, and he was horrified. Oh, gosh, he just, like, drank it all in as fact? I believe so. I mean, it really seems like, you know, maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed. It didn't. And I don't even know if that's fair. It's just like when you don't when you're not critical of the news you're taking in,

it just can be a really dangerous thing. And so here this guy is with these two young daughters and he was just fired up. He was terrified. He couldn't believe this was going on. So here he was in North Carolina, hearing about kids being sexually abused just a day's drive away. So he decided he had to do something. He was going to put a stop to the child sex ring. He texted a couple friends asking if they would join him. One of the friends responded, sounds like we are freeing some oppressed pizza from the hands of an evil pizza joint. Oh my gosh. And I mean, Edgar, Edgar was like, hey, watch some of these

YouTube videos and I'll call you in the morning. You know, I don't know. I guess he thought his friend would like see the light after watching some angry YouTube videos and then like, you know, hop on board. Then Edgar reached out to another friend. Would he help with this mission? Did he have any army buddies who would join in? And the friend was like, what's the deal? What are we doing?

Here's what Edgar said. Raiding a pedo ring, possibly sacrificing the lives of a few for the lives of many. Standing up against a corrupt system that kidnaps, tortures, and rapes babies and children in our own backyard. Okay. Okay. will be our families. This world is too afraid to act and I'm too stubborn not to. Okay. Okay. How do you feel about that? Because I, I feel so, uh, that seems sincere to me. I agree, but that's why it's scary. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm not saying this is terrifying, but you know, I'm not getting the same vibes as like, you know, Timothy McVeigh, who was just a God. What an evil idiot through and through. And I don't know who.

God, here I am like being. Is what I'm saying. Is what I'm saying. So none of his friends joined him, but that didn't stop Edgar. On December 4th, 2016, he left the house before his girlfriend and his two daughters woke up.

He got a.38 handgun, an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle, and a knife, hopped in his Toyota Prius, What? That is off-brand. That is so off brand okay is a toyota prius okay no lie the most shocking part of this story is that this man drives a toyota prius i thought you'd jump in his f-350 if you had to like if you had me guess like my top hundred guesses for what car this man drives, Toyota Prius.

I mean, nowhere on the list. Yeah. And I want to say I'm not making fun of Toyota Priuses. I drive one myself. It's like the best car I've ever owned. But if you had told me that someone listens to Alex Jones and drives a Toyota Prius, I'd be like, that person does not exist. He is a figment of your imagination. Exactly. But I assure you this unicorn is real and his name is Edgar. I would have, I would have guessed there was not a single Trump supporter that drives a Toyota Prius.

Hmm. No, um, because there are too many too many college educated white ladies who voted for him maybe which is the thing i've said many times only drive a toyota prius if you believe climate change is real yeah yeah uh oh gosh now we're getting into the murky, scary waters of why you vote for Trump. Yeah, we should probably back out of this water. I apologize. So anyway, he hops out. Okay, so just an aside. I was so shocked when I read the part in the article that was like he hopped in a Toyota Prius that I was like, did he rent the Toyota Prius? Like to throw people off the trail? So then I did a deeper dive and I found out that no, he in fact owned the Toyota Prius. That was his car.

Edgar is clearly a complicated man. I mean, like, that's right. Edgar is clearly a complicated man. I mean, like. That's right. So at approximately 3 p.m., he burst into the restaurant with the AR-15 strapped to his chest. He walked toward the back. You know, I mean, it was just chaos.

Waiters and waitresses and customers of all ages, you know, just fled the restaurant. Meanwhile, big brave Edgar stalked around the restaurant in search of the child sex ring he was sure he would find. Yeah. He went back to the kitchen. He found a locked door. He's like, this is it. This is where it is. He tried to open it with a butter knife.

That didn't work. So he shot it open with his gun. Okay, interestingly enough, yes, he shot at it. He shot at the lock a few times, but that didn't work. So I'm like, man, he had to have been just like, I have found it. They have the best lock in town on this thing. So then he climbed on some furniture to look down over the top of the room so i mean i don't know how this works anyway in that room he discovered i'm sorry wait sorry i keep having to pump the

brakes here on this story well naturally it's a crazy child sex ring was going on in a room with the most secured lock you'd ever seen. Yet the walls didn't go all the way to the ceiling. Listen, I'm not trying to say that he's a genius. Okay. I'm just, I'm just the woman telling you the story. Okay. So in that room, yeah, you're, you're like, you're about to miss the biggest part.

I mean, drum roll, please. Can you give me a drum roll? Yeah. In that room, he discovered. Oh, my God. Food, you know. It's like, you know, can you imagine the look on his face? I mean, OK, anyway. can you imagine the look on his face i mean okay anyway so you know he keeps walking and one source said that he found another door and whipped it open another source said that he just

like kept walking and he came across drum roll please a scared shitless employee who was just like holding some pizza dough yes because there's a man with an ar-15 or whatever walking around the restaurant shut the doors open so well not even successfully shooting them open i mean i hate to be a critic of that but you know so so you know he aims i guess he aimed the the AR-15 at this employee and the employee, of course, like freaked out and fled the scene. And this may shock you, but Edgar didn't find any evidence of a child sex ring that day in the basement of Comet Pizza. Weird. Yeah, in fact, he didn't even find the basement where the crimes allegedly occurred. And that's probably because Comet Pizza doesn't even have a basement.

They're also not involved in a child sex ring, you know, but I digress, you know. Police officers arrived pretty quickly. They tried to secure the area and about half an hour after he'd entered the restaurant, Edgar came out and was arrested. No one was injured, but people were obviously traumatized. After he was arrested, he waived his right to counsel and told his story, which is just as sad slash stupid slash awful as you'd think it would be. Yeah. He believed a stupid conspiracy theory. And he said he wanted to go investigate. But I mean, you investigated with an AR-15 strapped to your chest. So you obviously believed it.

I read this interview with him in the New York Times afterward. And he kind of seemed almost embarrassed. He was like, well, you know, I listened to Alex Jones. He's a little bit extreme sometimes. But, you know, so he's kind of, you know, he's kind of acting a little embarrassed. But then at the same time, he's like, but, you know, I think 9-11 really needs to be reexamined. I mean, so obviously this guy is just, yeah. Anyway. really needs to be re-examined i mean so obviously this guy is just yeah anyway he was initially charged with a handful of firearms charges but prosecutors dropped those because they wanted him

in federal court so he was then charged with one count of interstate transportation of a firearm with intent to commit an offense also assault with a dangerous weapon for pointing the gun at the poor, I mean, that poor employee. Good grief. And possession of a firearm during the commission of a violent crime. In March of 2017, Edgar pled guilty to two of those charges, transporting firearms and ammunition across state lines and assault with a dangerous weapon. Prosecutors had agreed to drop the charge of possessing a firearm while committing a violent crime, which would have gotten him an additional 15 years. I'm sorry, which could have gotten him an additional 15 years. Here's something interesting. And I'm like, is this how this works?

The article I read in the Washington Post said that Edgar agreed to forfeit the guns and ammo that he'd used that day, which I'm like, do you get to go commit a crime and then keep all the paraphernalia afterward? I had no idea that's how that works. That's weird. So he agreed to give that away, and he was ordered to pay Comet Pizza about $5,700 for damaging their computer systems, a door, a lock, and a ping pong table. Those ping pong tables are pretty steep. They're not cheap. You know, it's a small price to pay to bust open a child's sex ring, am I right? Edgar faced up to 20 years in prison.

The defense and prosecution agreed that he should probably serve less than that, but they couldn't seem to agree on a sentencing recommendation. I want to pause here. What do you think he deserves for this? Gosh, I don't know. I think it's really tough. Why? I mean, obviously what he did was very dangerous and someone could have gotten very seriously killed.

Yeah, someone could have been killed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I also wonder if there is a play for him to be able to sue Alex Jones for like liability on this. That's interesting. He took what he said as fact. That's very interesting.

I don't know. I don't know. I wonder about Alex Jones liability and all this. But obviously, I mean, I think this man, Edgar, deserves to be punished for sure. But I don't know where I land on the recommendation. Breitbart was in on this, too. I mean, like Michael Flynn tweeted about this. I mean, it's like so many people. Mm hmm. There's an argument. I don't know. OK, now here's my other question. Are you weirdly sympathetic to him, too, or am I being a weirdo about this? Yeah, I am actually weirdly sympathetic to him because I feel like he really, oh, gosh, he took everything that he took in as a legitimate news source.

And, like, this is really happening and someone needs to do something about this. But at the same time, like, you can't protect people from themselves. Like you have to be able to look at information, be able to weed out like, OK, what is actual legitimate information and what is a crazy conspiracy theory? Yeah, yeah. I do have to admit. So when I was when I was researching this this I went on Snopes to look at something and so on Snopes sometimes they'll have excerpts of like a fake article or whatever and for like longer than I want to admit I was fooled by one because I hadn't realized that I

had like switched into the different that different shaded area where they were quoting from another source. And the only reason I realized finally that it was fake was they referred to someone. They were like so-and-so's gay boyfriend. And they're talking about two men. And I thought that's kind of a weird way to put it. Why not just say boyfriend? Like if it's two men, obviously. I just thought it was like that's weirdly judgy. That kind of gross and um I've just kept thinking of that and then all of a sudden

I realized oh I'm pulling from some like right wing propaganda site yeah so here I am saying Edgar's not the sharpest tool in the shed but clearly I'm probably right there next to him I feel like sometimes it's it it is like you have to. It's difficult to kind of suss out if a if a source is legitimate. I mean, we do a lot of research for this. And it's like, you you have to, yeah, compare and contrast information and see, you know, what you can verify through another source. It's Yeah, I mean, I guess that's where I feel like a little bit of sympathy towards Edgar, because I think it could be easy, initially to get drawn into something and be like, Oh, my gosh, this is something that's really happening. And no one's doing anything about it. But at the

same time, like I said, can't save people from themselves. Yeah. So in June of that year, Edgar was sentenced to four years in prison. Four, really? Yeah. How do you feel about that? It's pretty low. Yeah, I mean, I will say something. Yeah, so he cooperated.

He did not physically injure anyone. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Mm hmm. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. In a letter to the court, he wrote that he was, quote, truly sorry for endangering the safety of any and all bystanders who were present that day. He also said that he, quote, came to D.C. with the intent of helping people. Yeah, I think that's the thing that like makes me feel a little bit sympathetic is that he obviously thought he was coming there to do good yeah I think that's it for me too is like but aren't there so many radicals that think that yeah um where's the where's the line well I mean obviously here's the line you can't bust into a restaurant with a gun. But I think like.

Like to use your favorite example, Kristen, don't you think Hitler thought he was doing good? So I think there's a big difference, obviously. One is that he was clearly not doing good. It's not it's not just do I think I'm doing good. But it's like I'm putting myself in his shoes, not Hitler's not it's not just do i think i'm doing good but it's like i'm putting myself in his shoes not hitler's edgar's and you know like if i really thought that a day's drive away there was an honest to god child sex ring there were kids locked up and all it would take was for me to go try to free some kids with a gun. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't either. That's I, Oh God. How do you, that's heroic.

No matter how you look at it, because we're all against child sex rings, you know? Yes. Yes. There's nobody that is for child sex rings. And I think that's the difference between him and Hitler. Do you know what I'm saying? Like his, if, if we are taking him at his word and like, he really believed that there was a child sex ring and he really believed that he was trying to like save children and stop pedophiles then i'm like okay well that's a bipartisan issue we've gotten to a weird part here's the thing america is so divided isn't it great that we can all come together on this issue

this wasn't over though i'm sorry to say so this poor owner of comet pizza he had been traumatized and he'd been accused of running a child sex ring which i don't know that there's anything worse you can be accused of doing. So he looked himself in the mirror and he said, Let's go to court. I love trying to say things in unison. So you mentioned earlier that you were kind of hankering for an Alex Jones lawsuit, thinking maybe, oh, well. Yeah.

Asking you shall receive. Yes. Here we go. His attorneys sent a letter to Alex Jones and they were like, you know, Pizzagate was bullshit. You know, you spread lies. They hurt people. We demand an apology and a retraction. Okay.

Under Texas law, Alex Jones... I was going to say, that all sounds fair to me. Well, yeah, at the very least, right? I mean, come on. Under Texas law, Alex Jones had a choice. He could either issue the apology and retraction within one month of receiving that letter. And if he didn't, he'd be hit with a libel suit.

Yeah. Apparently, our boy Alex didn't think he'd do too well in court. First of all, your boy Alex, not my boy Alex. No, you're totally with him on the gay frogs thing. No. with him on the gay frogs thing. On the same day that Edgar pled guilty, Alex Jones posted a video on his website. In that video, he read a prepared statement. Here's part of what it said. In our commentary about what had become known as Pizzagate, I made comments about Mr. Elephantus that in hindsight I regret, and for which I apologize to him. We apologize to the extent our commentaries could be considered as negative statements about Mr. Elephantus or Comic Ping Pong, and we hope that anyone else involved in commenting on pizzagate will do the same thing

i hate it uh-huh yeah we apologize to the extent our commentaries could be considered as negative statements oh my goodness oh gee i don't know would someone maybe consider it negative to be accused of running a child sex ring? Yeah, that's like when someone's like, well, I'm sorry you took what I said as blah, blah, blah. It's like that's not the same as saying you're sorry for saying what you said. No, it's not. I'm sorry you're so sensitive and crazy. Sorry if you're offended.

Yes. So in the aftermath of Pizzagate, a lot of people were horrified and confused. In particular, real news organizations were stunned. How had this conspiracy theory become so widespread? A study of voters in early December of 2016, and granted, this was a small sample size, revealed that 9% of respondents thought that Hillary Clinton was connected to a child sex ring being run out of a pizzeria in Washington, DC. Oh my gosh, Nine percent and 19 percent said they weren't sure. Oh, no.

I mean, I don't even know what to say to that. So many people believe this. Yeah. Journalists began looking into how this conspiracy theory came about. Rolling Stone did an excellent piece about this. It's called Anatomy of a Fake News Scandal by Amanda Robb. And it's long and doesn't go into the court stuff. But I just want to give you a few highlights. Yeah. What they discovered was that this conspiracy came about

thanks to a mix of, and I'm quoting, ordinary people, online activists, bots, foreign agents and domestic political operatives. Many of them were associates of the Trump campaign and others had ties to Russia. What's a domestic political operative? Hmm. I mean, you could say you don't know. I'm just curious. I would be guessing it would be like a Michael Flynn type guy. Right, right.

That's what I'm wondering. Yeah. Okay. Could be totally wrong. Okay. Now, this part, I could not resist. I cannot resist not telling you this part. Okay.

Okay. Do you remember the Facebook post that I talked about in the beginning from, you know, Carmen? Yeah, they got six likes. Yeah, okay, okay. Yeah. Carmen Katz in Missouri, right? Yeah, from Pussy Galore or whatever. What?

So this journalist for Rolling Stone investigated all these different accounts, you know, who'd put forth all this false information, and the journalist looked into Carmen Katz. Uh-huh. Here's what she discovered. No one named Carmen Katz. Uh-huh. Here's what she discovered. No one named Carmen Katz lives in Missouri. Uh-huh. Shocking. Right. Yeah.

But Carmen Katz loves signing Change.org petitions. For example, she signed a petition called, good God, put Donald Trump's face on Mount Rushmore. Oh, no. Which just like strapped me to a rocket and send me elsewhere. I mean, are you? Interestingly, every time she signed a petition, the person who signed it right before her was a woman named Cynthia Campbell. Oh, have we discovered her real identity? I'm afraid so. So guess what?

Cynthia Campbell lives in Joplin, Missouri. And she and Carmen Katz have the exact same profile picture of a cat. Oh, weird. Turns out of a coincidence. Yeah, it's a huge coincidence. Not at all linked. I don't want to hear some conspiracy theory about how they're the same person. She is a 60 something year old attorney. The journalist reached out to her and after some prodding and showing up at her door, Cynthia admitted that she had set up the Carmen Katz account. But it had been hacked a few years earlier. Just like Wiener's account.

That's right. That's right. And, you know, please ignore the NRA sticker on the door. I'm just a fan of hunting. And, oh, by the way, I'm secretly a Democrat. What? Right. Right.

Like, kiss my whole asshole. You are not a Democrat, my friend. So this journalist was like, oh, OK. Well, sometimes accounts are hacked, all right. But the next morning, Cynthia texted her 21 times. And boy, howdy, she sounded exactly like that nut job Carmen Katz. Uh-huh. In those texts, she said such gems as,

people like you don't give a shit that you destroy innocent humans lives. Go back to your soul sucking job. You are fake news, which I mean, that is rich. And stalking and harassing innocent people who have done nothing to you is wrong, evil and illegal. Then, Cynthia threatened to report her to the ACLU. Wow. Hold on. And the Geek Squad from Best Buy.

What? What's the Geek Squad? I'm just picturing norm he runs up to some journalist go stay away my part of the geek squad i will report you to the ACLU and Best Buys Geek Squad. Okay, so that was just a fun aside about one of my fellow Missourians. Even though Pizzagate has been debunked, it was clearly bullshit from the start. There are still people who believe it, though. It was clearly bullshit from the start.

There are still people who believe it, though. And in January of 2019, a man walked into Comet Pizza, which was filled with people, and he set it on fire. Oh, my gosh. Luckily, no one was hurt, and the fire was quickly extinguished. I can't imagine what it's like to work there. I'm sure they're just on pins and needles all the time. Yeah, you would be. A few weeks later, the man pled guilty and was sentenced to 48 months in prison.

He never admitted to a motive, but I've got a wild guess. A few days after that first attack on Comet Pizza, Hillary Clinton was asked for her thoughts. And she said, it's now clear that so-called fake news can have real world consequences. Yeah. And that, my friends, is the batshit crazy story of Pizzagate. What a wild ride that was. Do you want to go out for ice cream? for ice cream oh my god oh my gosh i my head was spinning reading about this uh yeah is that i don't even know what to say it's so sad and weird yeah that's nuts what do you mean by that walnuts or no why do you think it is that we feel that little bit of of sympathy or empathy towards edgar oh i think it's totally simple it's like assuming assuming, you know, assuming his motives were pure, he thought he was going to go stop a child sex ring. He got there, realized there wasn't one.

And I mean, he didn't hurt anybody. Yeah. And he pled guilty and he apologized. Right. I mean, I certainly don't want to sit down and have a beer with the guy. I don't want to go anywhere near him. But, you know, I can.

What about ice cream? I sure would love to share an ice cream with him. Extra sauce. No, don't you think that's what it is? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's got,

yeah, I think that's definitely it. So many people we talk about have like terrible motives and they they won't admit to anything and all this stuff. And yeah. Yeah. There you have it. Oh, that was a wild ride. Was that the wildest ride you've ever been on, though?

I've been on Mr. Toad's wild ride. Was that the wildest ride you've ever been on, though? I've been on Mr. Toad's wild ride, so no. Now, what is that code for, I wonder? Alright, you want to talk about a fire? Yeah, I do, I guess. Shout out to my boy Seamus McG McGraw, over at the crime library. Dang.

If only these people knew how much you love them. I love them all so much. You need like framed pictures of them on your wall. And these are my top 10 favorite crime writers. Yes. Oh, here's a photo of my child. It's much lower and smaller. So, okay, this, I knew like the tiniest bit about this story,

and there's like hardly any information available about it, except for one giant piece by Seamus McGraw. All right, Seamus. Thank you. I mean, he, yeah, he delivered here. Okay. Okay. Seton Hall University is a private Catholic university in South Orange, New Jersey.

It was founded in 1856 by Bishop James Roosevelt Bailey, who then named it after his aunt, Elizabeth Ann Seton. It is the oldest university under the control of the diocese. Diocese? Diocese. Diocese. In the United States. Okay. I personally, and really only familiar with Seton Hall

because the Jayhawks played them on St. Patrick's Day in 2018 during the NCAA tournament. Oh my God, boo, who cares? Seton Hall, I'll have have you know was an eight seed while the jayhawks were a one seed and we meaning you know the jayhawks you were playing on the team at the time we played terribly when we're a one seed anyway the jayhawks did manage to squeak out a win that day, beating the Pirates 89 to 7. It was like 83 to 79. 83 to 79.

Brandi, I will flip this table over. If you tell me any more about sports, this is nonconsensual. I don't want to learn. I will have you know that they advanced to the Sweet 16. And for anyone who's still listening and interested, which I'm sure is no one, KU did go on to make it to the Final Four that year, losing to Villanova, who ended up tournament champs. Okay. One last fun fact about the 2018 NCAA tournament.

Kristen, have you completely zoned out? Are you refusing to speak any longer? Oh, damn it, I started laughing. Are you refusing to speak any longer? Oh, damn it. I started laughing. I was like, I'm going to make her think that I've taken off my headphones and I've gone to another room. So my last fun fact about the 2018 NCAA tournament is this is actually the first time in history that a one seed was taken down by a 16 seed in the first round when the University of virginia lost to umbc which until that day i never heard of and thought it was a bank you know anyway here's the deal lately sports sports have

been canceled lately due to lack of interest so i miss sports so much you know what norman said oh my god can you hear that loud ass lawnmower? Oh, my Lord. What is it? A loud ass what? Lawnmower. It is the lawnmower. Oh, no, I can't hear it. So, OK, Norman and I were sitting around.

We were having having lunch and just kind of sitting around. And he just all of a sudden in the saddest voice goes, I miss sports. I miss sports so much. I tell you what This pandemic has sucked Oh my god I can't hear the lawnmower It's so loud It's one of those city ones

Where they've got the I've always kind of wanted to ride on one Where the stand up was Yeah and he just toots along Anyway In conclusion I felt like I was studying a rare bird hearing about like missing sports. I just didn't understand it at all.

Yeah, I also miss sports a lot. Okay, anyway. Let's talk about Seton Hall. Is that too sad? You'd better, you'd rather talk about a fire than talk about. I like talking about a fire instead of how much I miss sports. Okay. Tiny, it's serious, Kristen.

All right, I'm there. It was just after 430 in the morning on January 19th, 2000, when Tom Pugliese, Pugliese, it's an Italian name and I'm probably butchering it. Was jolted from his sleep by the sound of a fire alarm. Tom was a freshman at Seton Hall living in Boland Hall, one of the dorms on campus. My script autocorrected to Poland Hall and I knew that was not correct. That's why I stuttered there for a second so he's living in boland hall which is just one of the many dorms on campus and in the five months that he had lived

there this had to be at least the sixth time the smoke alarms had gone off dorms like anytime anyone popped popcorn all of a sudden our firearmsarms! Whoa! I went to a very liberal school in Boston. I assure you there were no firearms. Fire alarms went off. It was so annoying. Yeah. So Tom and his roommate, Frank Caltabalota, who had been best friends since like the seventh grade, had learned to basically ignore. Get a real friendship.

They should all start in fifth grade. This is great. But so they'd been kind of conditioned to ignore these fire alarms because they never meant anything. Right. And on this particular night, Tom was about to make a comment to Frank about how annoying the fucking smoke alarms were and then roll over and go back to sleep. Only when he looked at Frank, Frank seemed concerned. So Tom kind of rubbed the sleep out of his eyes, sat up in bed and followed Frank's gaze across the room to their door. Thick black smoke was seeping in, slowly filling the room. This was not a false alarm.

Despite the fact that there had been more than half a dozen false alarms in their time living in the dorm, Tom and Frank quickly realized that they had no idea what they were supposed to do. No one had ever told them like what the fire escape plan was. Really? So they, no, they had never run through a fire drill, nothing. Wait, so I'm sorry, when in the past, when the fire alarm had gone off, like nobody, nobody exited the building? No. Oh, wow. Yeah.

That's bizarre. It was just like everybody was so used to it. They're like, oh, just ignore it. It happens all the time. Oh, wow. And so they were completely conditioned to do that same thing. So they quickly kind of like take stock of what their what their options are. They lived on the third floor. And so jumping out of their window onto the sidewalk below didn't seem like an option either of them wanted to try.

So that all that really left was just going out into the hall with no idea where the fire itself was. hall with no idea where the fire itself was. When they first opened the door, they were knocked back by thick smoke and toxic fumes. Frank decided he was going to go first. He dropped to the floor trying to crawl below the smoke and find an exit. But the smoke was so thick that Tom lost sight of him almost as soon as he entered the hallway. So Tom entered the hall next and he was unsure of even which direction Frank had gone when he left the room. Oh, my God. He couldn't see anything. He couldn't hear anything.

As far as he knew, he was the only person in the hallway trying to make it to safety. Like smoke was so dark and so thick. He couldn't see his hand in front of his face without it being like an inch away. Oh my God. This is terrifying. Yeah. As he crawled, he kind of kept in mind something that he had either like learned in a fire safety course, like in elementary school, or maybe he heard it on TV. He couldn't be sure, but stay low became this like mantra that he just like chanted to himself over and over again, as he crawled blindly in search of an exit. Oh, my gosh.

As he's like crawling, he can't see anything. He's repeating stay low to himself over and over again. All of a sudden, there's this like searing pain in his neck, and he's trying to ignore it and just move forward. but he comes so bad he like reaches back the heat in the building it turns out had gotten so intense that this gold necklace he always wore was glowing red and burning his skin oh my god so he tried to pull it off but it was like too hot he couldn't get enough of a grasp on it. And so he just had to ignore it and keep moving forward, even though it was literally branding his neck. Oh, my God. He crawled further along the hallway until a pain unlike anything he'd ever felt before started in his hands and then moved up to his wrists.

He pulled his hands close to his face to inspect them and kind of instinctively shook them off in an attempt to like dissipate the pain. You know, like when you kind of shake your hand off when you've when you hurt something as he did. Hunks of his burning flesh fell away and hung there just charred. Oh, fire investigators would later theorize that at this point, the fire was burning so hot, over 1500 degrees, they estimated that it had turned the synthetic hallway carpet molten. Oh, my God. Tom was essentially crawling through lava on his hands and knees.

At this point, Tom knew he had to get his skin off the carpet. So he managed to like stagger to his feet. And he was trying to hold his breath because the higher he got, the thicker the smoke was. But he only made it a few steps before he collapsed against a door. Yeah, at this point, he was slipping in and out of consciousness. He'd inhaled so much smoke, he was in so much pain that like he didn't even feel it when someone opened that door and he wasn't conscious when someone grabbed him and pulled him to safety. Oh, my gosh. He had no idea that he'd actually made it out of the building. As I said, the smoke was so thick and dark that Tom had felt like he was the only one still in the building fighting to escape. But that wasn't the case.

Less than 100 feet from him, down another set of a hall, like another hallway. So there was like kind of like three hallways that converged at like a student lounge. And so down one of the other hallways, Dana Christmas was trying to figure out what the hell to do. She was the 21 year old RA for the like that portion of the dorms. Yeah. And when the fire alarms had gone off, and she had realized there was actually a fire, she couldn't leave the building. Like she just couldn't do it. She felt like nobody knew what they were supposed to do. And she couldn't abandon them. And so she just started knocking on doors and telling people to leave. Oh, my God.

She was just running from door to door, banging on doors, telling people to get to the stairwells, get out of the building. That's someone who takes her RA job very seriously. Oh, my gosh. Yes. So as she's doing this, all of a sudden she feels this like crazy pain on the back of her head. Her scalp had burst into flames. What? I did not know that was a thing that could happen.

Yes. So she obviously, like you do, like it's just your normal instinct to do, she starts to pat it out with her hands and her hands caught on fire. Oh my God. Brandy, what the hell? I had the courtesy of telling you a fake story this is too real

despite this despite the fact that her scalp and her hands were literally on fucking fire she still didn't leave the building she kept hitting on doors and kept making sure people knew where to go. To this day, Dana has no idea how she got out of the building. At some point, she collapsed and she has like a vague recollection of someone picking her up and carrying her downstairs and out of the building. What do you think you would do in this situation? I have no idea. Yeah. I have no, I can't imagine that I do what Dana did and stay there despite my fucking head being on fire. I know for a fact I wouldn't. I don't think I would. Yeah. You know the story about me, right? About how the hotel fire alarm went off.

Do you know this? You gotta tell us. But do you know it? I feel like you know it i feel like i think i do know when i was in high school this this is this is admitting that i'm a terrible person so when i was in high school i would go on you know all the journalism trips because i was very cool and um i think it was on a trip to Washington, DC. You know, we were there was a bunch of us piled into a hotel room. I want to say there were like six of us in like an embassy suites. And it was like, midnight, maybe maybe later and the fire alarm went off. And I think it had been going off for a while. And finally, I woke up and I sat up in bed and everyone else was still asleep, except for Laura.

And we'll bleep her last name. And Laura and I made eye contact with one another from across the room. Everyone else is asleep. one another from across the room everyone else is asleep and i just got up and bolted and she stayed behind and woke everyone up and like when one of the girls was like trying to get her suitcase laura was like no no we've got to go i mean it was like the most clarifying moment of whether you're a good person and obviously i'm not because like it was a bad situation and I peaced the fuck out. Obviously, here I sit, you know, doing my little dog and pony show here. Laura, of course, is a public school teacher.

True kindness shining through yeah it's pretty clear that you would not have been dana no see that's and that's like i'm listening to this story i'm like what an amazing person and sometimes i like to fantasize like well maybe i'd do the same thing nope nope we know we know in a fire drill situation i I am out the fucking door. Yeah. OK, so Dana somehow gets out of the building. This other kid that kind of lived on the same hallway, but on the opposite end from Dana, his name was Nick Donato. And he had opened his door and been just overwhelmed by the amount of smoke.

He thought, you know, I have to get out of here. And he had thought the same thing that Tom and Frank had, like, I can't jump out of my window. There's who even knows if I'll make that fall, like I might die. And so he was like, trying to walk through the smoke, when all of a sudden, he had completely lost his sense of direction. He was walking in a circle. He didn't know where he was. He couldn't see anything. And so he managed to feel his way back to his room. And he closed the door to try and, you know, keep as little smoke as possible coming in. And then he was like, this is it. I either die here in my room now by burning in this fire, or I jump out of my window. And so he kicked out the glass in his window. And then he like, climbed out and hung from the

windowsill to get as close to the ground as he could. We're talking like the third floor. So what like a 30 foot drop? I have no idea. At least? But too high. Yeah. I think more than that. Anyway, so he's like, this is it. Like, I have to, I have to do this. And so he lowered himself as much as he could. And then he kind of pushed off the building, hoping that he wouldn't land on the sidewalk that was directly below. And he'd land in the grass for some kind of padding.

Yeah. And he did. When he landed, he was so overjoyed by the fact that he had made it out of the building and he was still alive that he was completely numb to all the pain that he had just inflicted on himself. He had broken his foot, his wrist. He broke part of his back. Oh, God. Yeah. He was injured badly, but he literally like got up and walked to where everyone else is, despite all of these injuries, like just on pure adrenaline alone. Yeah. Tom's roommate and best friend, Frank, was not so lucky.

When he left their dorm room, he'd turned left. This is the route he took every day. Is this the one I said get a real friendship, real friendship starting? Yeah. Good God. Why am I such a douchebag? I take it back. Obviously, that's a real friendship. He's just kidding. Good Lord. So when he left the room, he turned to the left. This was the same route he took every day on his way to class. He went down the hall through the student lounge to the elevators. And so to him, like that was the way out of the building. So that's the way he'd gone. He had no way of knowing that the heart of the fire, the ignition point was in that student lounge that he was walking towards. Investigators

would later say that Frank had likely succumbed to the smoke and heat before Tom had even ventured into the hallway in the opposite direction. And that had Frank gone right as Tom did, he likely would have survived. That's so sad. Yeah. When fire crews arrived on the scene, like it was just like one set of firefighters initially came because they were responding to a couch fire call that's how the call initially came in that there was a couch fire oh my gosh when they got there though and they saw the amount of smoke billowing out of this building they're like holy shit this is something that's way worse than that yeah so they had to call tons of backup and they had to enlist the students who had evacuated the building to help put ladders and stuff up to these third floor windows to get people out.

You are kidding me. No. And then they couldn't get the fucking fire hydrant to open because it was so cold out. It was 20 degrees. The fire hydrant was frozen. So an extended amount of time went by before they even had a chance to start putting this fire out by the time they got the water flowing and the hoses working it took only minutes like like literally a minute to extinguish the blaze

but the damage had already been done. In all, 56 kids were injured. Oh, my God. In the fire. Three had lost their lives. Oh. The three victims were Frank, Kalta Belota, Aaron Carroll, and John Giunta. They were all freshmen, and they all lived kind of in the same the same area. Frank and Aaron, I believe, had died near the lounge where the fire was. That was the direction

they had gone to escape. And John had died of smoke inhalation. Of the 56 that were injured, four of them, including Tom, who we you know, we know what happened to him, were injured really badly. Tom was like put into a medically induced coma for like two weeks so that his body could heal. Because there's like nothing they can do for you for pain when you're healing from a burn. Obviously, Blink-182 is like my favorite band. And so. What does that have to do with it i'll get i will get there connection it is it is so travis barker is the drummer for blink 182 i met him it was

really cool anyway um you shouted at him i sure did it's a short story okay so i went to so he also is the drummer for the transplants and the transplants are on Warped Tour in like 2005. And I went to Warped Tour and caught his drumstick when I threw it into the crowd at the end of a show. And so after his set, there was like a section where there was like fencing where the people would walk by back back to their tour buses. And so I knew he would walk by there and I wanted him to sign his drumstick. And so he did he he walked by there and he stopped and he was signing a bunch of stuff. But he was getting ready to leave and I hadn't got him to sign it yet.

And so I was just like, as he was getting ready to turn and walk away, I was like, Travis, Travis, Travis. And I just said his name like five times, like as loud as I could. And so he finally turns and he goes, what? And I was like, hey, will you sign your drumstick? And he was like, yeah, OK. And that was like the last thing he signed. And then he left.

He he had some thoughts about you, man. He sure did. He sure did. Anyway, my dog might be named after him. It's a whole thing anyway. OK, so what I'm saying anyway, he was famously Anyway, my dog might be named after him. It's a whole thing. Anyway. Okay. So what I'm saying, anyway, he was famously, he survived a plane crash.

He was like one of two survivors in a horrible plane crash. And he suffered crazy burns as a result of this plane crash. And he wrote a book about it. And in his book, he talks about when he was in the hospital and how horrible the pain was that he just wished he would die like because they can't do anything he just got like skin grafts on top of skin grafts and like while that skin is growing and trying to heal it is so painful even like the lightest breeze across your skin just feels like the most pain you've ever felt in your life and there's nothing no amount of pain medication will do anything for it. So in a lot of these cases where the people have intense healing to do and like intense skin grafting, they do. They put you in like a medically induced coma to get you through the worst of it.

And so Tom was in this medically induced coma for two weeks. He didn't even know his best friend had died. Oh, God. Yeah. Sorry, I've completely gone off died. Oh, God. Oh, yeah. Sorry, I've completely gone off track. I need to find where I was. You were about to name your top 10 Blink-182 songs. I probably was. So this happened at like 430 in the morning, the fire had broken out by nine o'clock that next morning. The smoke was gone, the fire had long been out, you know, students had gathered into a cafeteria, and the police were there ready to take statements, you know, figure out, you know, what had happened,

obviously, an investigation had already begun into, you know, the cause of this fire, this had burned very hot, and it spread very fast. And immediately it looked to them that this was something that had been started. This was not some faulty wiring or somebody had flicked a cigarette. You know, this was something that had been intentionally started. They were pretty sure they had an arson on their hands. Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. had an arson on their hands. Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. So they they set about interviewing kids who had in in the dorm that night. What did you see? And what did you hear? You know, just trying to get any information. And by this time, the news of this fire had spread across town, obviously, and news fans were out front. And they were wanting to get interviews with students who had been there

and had seen what was going on and and most of them had no interest yeah in this at all except for this one oh this one okay here we go here's our guy this guy this guy aka this guy yeah as uh someone who would fit in nicely on the jersey shore oh his name was joe lapore and he was real eager to do an interview with those news fans his roommate and best friend they'd been best friends since they were at least in the fifth grade sean was his like had no interest and he as soon as they were approached by the news people, Sean like was like, peace out. No, I'm not interested. He walked away. But Joe was like, yeah, what do you want to know? And so he this is what he tells the police.

Or I'm sorry, tells the news. At first, I thought it was a false alarm. You know, someone did something stupid. But then when I opened the door, I was like, Oh, no, stupid but then when i opened the door i was like oh no this is real and it was scary as hell there was just a lot of smoke you couldn't even see 10 inches in front of your face you know just to really he was pretty broken up about everything that he'd seen that day and so so hold on hold on hold on yeah your delivery of this is quite like, yeah. So was that how he delivered it? Just like. Yeah. OK. Yes. To my it is my understanding that that's he was very casual about it. You know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. First I first I thought this was some crazy prank.

And then I was like, well, man, there's actually a fire. Great. OK, continue. So reporters didn't really think much of his reaction they were like oh great we got a good statement from somebody who was actually there you know whatever but police immediately thought that his statement about like oh i thought maybe it was like a prank or someone had done something stupid was very telling like that seemed like an odd thing for him to surmise about the situation or, you know, to even hint at. And so they immediately start looking into Joe and his friend and roommate, Sean. They're like, these have got to be our guys. But this would be nearly impossible for them to prove.

The arson investigation had, like I said, determined that, yes, this was a fire that had been intentionally started. There was no like hard hitting evidence that is available in a lot of arson investigations. There was no accelerant used. There was no like, you know, nothing was left unburned at the scene or something like that as some kind of attachment to to a particular person. Right. And so the fact that there was no accelerant use meant that this would be very hard to prove that this was an intentionally started fire, and that the results of it had been what this person had intended. So they form this task force to, to look into this investigation once they've determined that yes, this was a yes, this was an arson arson yes we know somebody for sure set this on purpose and pretty sure who we know it is

we know who did it but we've got to be able to prove it they put together this like crazy task force of all these guys who had like tons of experience like a couple of them had been involved in the hunt for the unabomber one of the people on the task force had been one of the guys that found evidence that cracked open the World Trade Center bombing in 1993. Like they put the best of the best on this case, because at this point, this was one of the deadliest fires in like university history. And people took like a particularly strong stance against like finding out what happened here, especially these task force members, because like they were all parents and they saw this as like a crime that had been done

against children. Yeah. And likely something that like some irresponsible like frat kid had done, and they wanted to make sure that that person paid their consequences for it. They knew that this would be a super tricky case to prove. But they had their suspicions. As I said, they thought for sure it was Joe and Sean, and they wanted to give them a chance to fess up. Like tell us that this was a prank. Tell us that it had escalated and that you didn't mean for this to happen something that got out of control. But it didn't seem like Joe or Sean, we're going to be telling the truth anytime soon. In fact, on January 21. So two days after the fire, Joe and Sean meet up with their other two best buddies, Tino and Michael. So these four kids all grew up in

Florham Park, New Jersey. And this is kind of like a really interesting little like neighborhood because it's a weird mix of like working class people and then also like suspected mobsters that all kind of live in the same community together. Like one of these guys, like dad was like a used car salesman or something. And then another one was a suspected mobster who had like charges pending for like a mob hit. And so police really had their eye on this group of four guys. So it turns out that they had this, that these four kids had like a secret, I know what you did last summer type meeting on January 21st, two days after the fire, they met at Dunkin Donuts in their hometown. As you do. And basically. That's the most Northeastern thing I've ever heard. Yes.

There's a Dunkin Donuts on every fucking corner. Yes. And what investigators would later find out is that at that meeting, the four of them took like a death pact that they would take to their grave what had happened that night in that dorm. Interesting. what had happened that night in that dorm. Interesting. So apparently some kind of shenanigans had ensued and Sean had ripped down this construction paper banner that was in the lounge during some kind of fart, fart, sorry, not a fart, a fight or an turns out it was either a fart or an argument sometimes that can lead to an argument yep hard to know for sure but there was like this

construction paper banner that was hanging in this in this student lounge and like during this argument he'd ripped it down and like part of it was still attached to the wall and the and the rest of it hung over one of the couches in the lounge. So all four of them were present during that time. But then Tino, or Tino, I'm sorry, his name is Santino, but he goes by Tino. And Michael had left the dorm like an hour before the fire had started. They had them like on security camera going to White Castle. Like they could tell that they were not in the building at the time of the fire had started. They had them like on security camera going to White Castle, like, they could tell that they were not in the building at the time of the fire. But they had witnessed

that banner being pulled down. And they'd also witnessed a conversation that took place about we should set it on fire and make sure make everybody have to evacuate the building when it's 20 degrees outside. Wouldn't that be oh yeah hilarious but on but could go wrong yeah but on this day two days after the fire they all took this oath that they would swear to each other that they would never talk about it they'd never mention it like serious I know what you did last summer. Bullshit. So investigators had to, at this point, they're not aware of that at all. They only have their suspicions. Obviously, their knowledge of that meeting and all of that would come out much later. Did all of their suspicion just come from that one news interview?

Yes. And when they questioned one of the resident, one of the other RAs, this guy, Dan, he had talked about how there had been some kind of incident in the student lounge that night and that he tried to break it up and that he had been unsuccessful. And that was these two guys that he was always dealing with, like he had problems with them. They were always tearing down his posters that he worked so hard on. Like these guys were like super douchey like frat guy dudes and dan was like a very dedicated ra yeah who took the time to put up this great construction paper banner welcoming back everybody from christmas break poor dan i know and so yeah that's that's kind of how the suspicion grew is because he told them that night that he tried to break up some kind of there was like a wrestling match or an argument in the dorm or in the in the student lounge that

night. And during that, they had ripped down his banner and he had seen it laying across the couch. So they had determined that the couch was the ignition point. They knew that was where the fire had started and that it had been spread to the other couches in the lounge and then spread to the carpet and spread throughout the entire third floor. So that's kind of how the the theory into these two guys being responsible for this kind of was formed. They were kind of their their attention was kind of piqued by what he said in that initial interview. And when they talked to multiple people who were at the dorm that night, the R.A. said, yeah, they were definitely up to multiple people who were at the dorm that night the ra said yeah they were definitely up to multiple shenanigans and then someone else had seen like the initial start of the fire in the the lounge shortly after they had seen

john or joe and sean there. But how do you prove it? Yeah, that's like you've got to get a confession. You got to crack one of these. My money's on Tino or Tito or whatever his name is. Tino. Tino. So what the police thought that they could do to use to their advantage was these suspected mob connections that these families had. So one of the kids, like I said, his dad was a suspected, I don't know, mobster.

And then another one of the kids was friendly with the family of a confessed mob hitman. And so somehow the police are like, OK, we got it. We got to swing this, use this to their advantage. And, huh, it it's gonna get crazy how they how they do this because i'm really like i'm really not impressed by the mob adjacent kid i agree i agree i agree and one thing that they thought was really odd too was when they talked to joe and sean about their activity that night when the fire alarm had gone off and everything is that they lived in like a suite so they lived lived in a two room like dorm that was connected to another two room dorm that

was connected with a bathroom. And they hadn't taken the time to alert the people on the other side of the suite about the fire before they left the building. Maybe they were a couple of Christians. They were a couple. Turns out they were just a couple of Christians. The police wanted them to be a couple of Laura's. Turns out they were a couple of Christians. One thing that the cops were sure of, and they were throwing this word around a lot, was that this was this was for sure a conspiracy. This had been a plan that they had put together and that these four kids were working together to cover it up and that they knew they just had to start pulling at threads to try and unravel it. And it started unraveling pretty quickly. Really? But the investigation, the investigation would take like three years.

Okay. Well, I would not call that pretty quickly, ma'am. I mean, I hate to be a stiggler. Okay. They got their first little thread pulled two days after the fire when they were interviewing Sean Ryan. So at first he didn't say anything about the banner. He didn't say anything about seeing anything in the lounge that night. He said that when he was in the hallway and he saw the fire after the fire alarm went off, that he was the one that alerted the RA that there was a fire going on and then he he grabbed his roommate Joe and that they were out the back staircase which that's real nice that he took the time to alert somebody no judgment here um but at the same time so like they're like questioning him more about what the RA.A.'s take on that night was, what his version of what happened that night was. And they wanted to know if he had seen anything, if he'd seen anybody.

You know, the police did that whole thing or like, you know, we know you're you know, you're really good friends with a lot of people you live with in the dorm. And, you know, maybe you saw something that night. You don't really feel comfortable saying it and blah, blah, blah, blah. And his only response to that was i'm no rat oh okay yeah okay and like the next day all four of those kids who had had that meeting at dunkin donuts all lawyered up so this this really pissed the police off so initially they had gone into this and they were like, you know, OK, let's just talk to these kids. Let's give them a chance to fess up to their mistakes. I'm sure that this was something that just got out of hand.

I mean, obviously they need to pay for what they did, but like, let's not let's not go, you know, too hard. Right. And this just pissed the police off. They were like, nope, fuck that balls to the wall. Now we're figuring this whole thing out. We're going to prove it all and we're going to send them all to jail for the rest of their lives. We're going to get murder charges against them, like the whole the whole kit and caboodle. But that's easier said than done when you have no fucking evidence against any of them. You have a lot of anger and no evidence.

Yes, exactly. yes exactly so they decide they're going to just like fucking go all in and convene a grand jury and call like 120 witnesses all on the same day so none of them have a chance to prepare and they can get as much actual information about it out of them without it getting contaminated or these guys having any control over what anybody says because they you know they know these families connections they think like there's a good chance that if anybody gets word that this is going to happen that they won't get the real story out of anyone or very few of them so this plan by the police um backfires because it completely overwhelms the prosecutors they can't hand like all of these people show up to give their testimony all at the same time they've

all lawyered up by this point so it's just way too overwhelming they can't do anything they can't get the information they need and so they end up having to like pause that take a 10 giant steps back and they bred this stuff out over months and months now so it just doesn't work at all. Like the police and investigators wanted it to work. Yeah. Weird strategy, though. I mean, I think it's an odd strategy, too. So, of course, this obviously grand jury proceedings are secret

and all of this was sealed and is still sealed. And nobody really knows to this day this whole grand jury thing is sealed. What we there is one story that has come out of it that was released somehow and some new source got their hands on and it is the story of what led up to what happened in the lounge that night okay so remember this whole thing started over

some kind of kerfuffle that took place in the lounge turns out kerfuffle. That's right. Kerfuffle. And it all was some prank that had been played on Sean is how it started. So Sean and Joe were like, they were freshmen, but they were frat. They were like rushing a frat or they were part of a frat. I don't know, either way. But they still live next to a frat house. Yeah, exactly. So there was this girl, apparently, that lived in their dorm who had this big crush on Sean, but she was like not anywhere near his level, obviously. Oh my God, I hate these guys already. Oh yeah.

And so as a joke, they like... As if I didn't hate them already. I'm sorry. Exactly. I'm just now realizing how that sounds. Yeah. Okay. So some woman who is not a perfect 10 has dared to be attracted to Sean.

Okay. Yes. And so as some hilarious prank, the other guys set up this like party and tell Sean that this girl who's really interested in the super hot girl is going to be there and he's interested in her and like they know that she's interested in him and they're going to hook up and he's interested in her and like they know that she's interested in him and they're going to hook up and whatever. Well, it turns out that the whole thing is set up as a prank and it's actually this girl that they bring to the party. And so when he finds out that he's the victim of this prank, he like loses his mind and gets in a physical fight with one of the

other guys. I don't know if it was Joe. I don't know if it was one of the other four. I'm not really sure. But they end up wrestling right there in the lounge. And that's when they tear down part of the banner. This is when they're being really obnoxious. And the RA tries multiple times to break them up and isn't able to take control of the situation. Everybody's been drinking at this point. Lots of people are intox intoxicated and it's a whole thing that's what started this whole thing is this stupid prank because this girl wasn't hot enough or whatever i don't even know what to say i know can you imagine being that girl no i can't fucking imagine being that girl oh my gosh yeah because like how i'm sure it was fucking terrible for her to realize that she's she's really the butt of the absolutely

and then this guy gets so mad that he has to punch somebody come on yeah from there that's when the situation escalated to, oh, let's like this prank didn't work out. Let's play another hilarious prank and let's set the banner on fire. That's what we know for sure comes out of this grand jury testimony. But at this point, like that grand jury declined to to bring forth an indictment. Wow. Nothing happened because despite the little bits of information you have from different witnesses, there's still no smoking gun. Yeah. You can't prove who started the fire. And the police worked really hard to try and prove how they'd done this. Like starting like nine months into this investigation, they actually rebuilt like a perfect replica of the hall at this abandoned.

I think it's like some kind of like military barracks or something down in South Carolina. So they rebuilt like an exact replica of the hall and tried multiple times to start the fire and be able to prove, you know, how it started, where it started, all of this stuff. And it was just what they knew happened is that it was started by a match, but they couldn't prove who lit the match. Yeah. So it didn't matter how many experiments they did. They couldn't prove it. None of the witnesses could say, yes, Joe Lepore lit the match and dropped it.

No, Sean Ryan lit the match and dropped it. No, Sean Ryan lit the match and dropped it. They couldn't pin it on any specific person. And so that's when they decided they needed to use that mob connection, get a confidential informant involved. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so they have this guy who's like doing like a 10 year stint in prison for a mob hit of some kind. And he's got like a pretty good connection to the Lepore family. And so they seek him out and offer him like $60,000. Supposedly, that's all confidential to be their confidential informant and secure information that would get them a warrant for a wiretap on the Lepore's phone.

Yes. And he does it. Well, yeah. Like they get enough information. He's connected enough to the Lepore family. I'm so sorry. I got excited. So, yeah.

So, yeah, so somehow this guy, this confidential informant has enough of a connection to the Lepore family that he gets them to say enough that they're able to secure a wiretap. They do a secret wiretap on the Lepore's phone. And for the next 24 months, two fucking years, they listen in to every conversation that goes through the Lepore family's phones. I would love that from those wiretaps they got enough information to bring forth an indictment for joe lapore's father his sister lauren and his mother marie for obstruction of justice so they all knew a bunch of information about the fire and didn't admit to it didn't say anything about it in any of their interrogations so they get indictments turned against them he went home and told his family about this well yeah because his dad was like his dad was considering

moving them out of town so that he could try and jump the charges like the whole family knew that like this was going this was bad and that something was going to come down from it but they still don't have quite enough on joe and so they want this confidential informant to like prod it a little bit and get more information apparently this is a tactic that is used a lot where they get the confidential informant, specifically when a wiretap is in place to feed little bits of information to the family so that they will speak specifically about the topics that they need to. And so he would meet up with the Lepore family and be like, yeah, you know, word on the streets that charges are coming down any day now.

And they know this and this and this. And so that it worked exactly like they wanted to well sure i mean it has to work that way right i mean like of course you can't just like wait for them to bring it up yeah and so this got enough information that finally oh my gosh in june specifically june 12th of 2003 what happened then good day it? Good day. What happened on that day, Brandi? That's mine and Norman's birthday. My God. Sound the birthday horn. Finally, on that day, prosecutors unsealed a 60-count indictment against Sean Ryan and Joe Lepore.

They charged them with arselin. Arselin? I and Joe Lepore. They charged them with arson. Arson? I put an L. I put an L in there. That's worse than arson. They charged them with arson, reckless manslaughter, and felony murder. Oh, boys, you're in trouble. Yeah, they were facing up to life in prison. As I mentioned, they also put charges against several members of the poor family.

This was headed to trial. The trial was scheduled for the following year, like the spring of 2004. Only this thing just dragged on and on and on and fucking on. on and on and on and fucking on finally the prosecutors approached sean and joe for a deal because they knew they still didn't have yeah they didn't have enough information to prove which one of them had done it and they certainly couldn't prove murder and if one of them would tell the story then exactly so they they approached them both offering a deal. And they both, in November of 2006, they both agreed to plead guilty to third degree arson. I'm sorry, what? Third degree arson.

Which carries a sentence of one month in prison or what even is that? In juvenile court. I'm sorry, fuck all the way off. Fuck all the way off. Okay the way off okay they better have sang like canaries no what no what i've told you is basically all the information that they ever admitted to are you serious yeah it got out of hand yeah they got that deal and they didn't even like tell the whole story nope and in exchange for the plea deal, they also got all of the charges against Lepore's family dropped.

I'm feeling like that girl with the crush. In January of 2007, they were each sentenced to. Don't you dare, Brandy. Five years in a youth correctional facility. Wow. Despite being I don't even fucking know how old at that time. Let's see. They were like 18 ish in 2000.

So they're 25 now. She's. And they would both become eligible for parole after 16 months. The victim's families obviously were super upset about this and spoke up during the sentencing hearing. They called the men cowards for running away after setting a fire and not helping anybody to evacuate the dorm. And not taking any responsibility. Any responsibility. I mean, they eventually pled guilty. But I mean, how many years later?

Exactly. Yeah, they let this thing drag out forever and ever and ever. Side note on that confidential informant. So he got like $60,000 and he got out of prison a year early to do this cooperation and he had been in prison on like nine counts of murder oh boy and now is in the witness protection program oh okay i hate thanks i hate it this is terrible it is terrible it's just like the links that they went to to try and nail these guys eventually and like what what was the payout there was no payout i mean this is ridiculous in march of 2008 both joe and sean became eligible for parole for the first time and they were both denied but not for long okay sean ryan was released in may of 2009

so he served two years of his sentence and joe lapore was released in january of 2010 so he served right about three years. Wow. Yeah. Well, three people died and a bunch of people were injured. So that sounds about right. Right. Three people died in a fire that they set intentionally. I can't even imagine being a family member of those victims, like how devastated you'd be by that sentence that they got. OK, I have a question that you might not know the answer to so someone obviously called in the fire was it one of these guys yes no i believe it was the ra the dan dan nugent or whatever i believe he is the first

person that called in the fire but i think that they're okay and i only read this in one source so i didn't include it so i'm not sure how accurate this is. But I believe that the RA had like some specific chain of command that he was supposed to follow. So he like called the fire into campus security. And then it got relayed to the fire department, which is why when they came, they thought it was only a couch fire. In the time that passed from that initial call that he made about, you know, this little fire in the lounge, it had grown into something so much more that Seton Hall took a bunch of negative press over the fact that basically 10 minutes had gone by before they were properly trying to extinguish this flame and what could have happened during that time. They could have done better to to reduce the amount of time response time that it took i just ask because i'm trying to think most sympathetically and okay so let's say it you know you're dumb

you're 19 whatever you decide to play this prank where you light this poster on fire and you realize oh shit it's getting out of. If the very least you can do is call. That's exactly what I'm saying. The least you can do is call the police, try to get people out of the dorm. The least you can do. Yeah, absolutely. Continue.

Yeah. So as I mentioned, Seton Hall took a lot flack about, you know, whatever process had been in place that required, you know, that led to this 10 minute gap being and they didn't have any fire sprinklers in this dorm. Yeah. That can't be legal. That's not up to code. amended, but there was not a law requiring it on buildings built before a certain date. So it was basically they were grandfathered into the old law. Like, you don't have to do the updates because, you know, this is a historic dorm or whatever. Well, in this case did take place in 1925.

So I guess that's fine. That is ridiculous. Yeah. fine that is that is ridiculous yeah so initially some of the families of the victims and the and the students who were you know survived but were horribly injured wanted to file claims of negligence against them all but they were protected by state law they were provided legal immunity because it is a religious nonprofit institution grief yeah but i guess i don't know to their defense and in 2001 they did agree to some sort of settlement with the families and they kind yeah gave them some amount of restitution for what happened yeah um since then i know i know since then it has become a state law that every dormitory residence building whatever has to have sprinklers really wow what a wild idea yeah yes and following this the the bishop which is basically the dean at Seton Hall, he moved specifically into this dorm building to prove that it was safe and that people could specifically like parents could trust that their kids were safe in in this dorm building.

OK. I mean, I wouldn't want to be living with some creepy dean. I guess I, that one. That's like a regular thing. Oh, so three people died here. A bunch of people were injured and now there's some creepy old guy living here. Oh yeah. Sign me up.

No, thank you. But as far as I could tell the other two guys that were involved that kind of knew what was happening and agreed to never talk about it like that no charges were ever brought against them it was only the two brandy are you kidding me i thought you were holding out on those two because it was going to be like and now some justice texas style and here no no no texas justice here this is it that's as good that's as good as it gets. Two in three years for those fuckers. Over a hilarious prank where three people fucking died.

And 56 were horribly burned. But it was a hilarious prank. No, it was not. And that's the story of the Seton Hall fire. Those dudes need help with pranks. Lighting construction paper is not a prank, dude. Not a prank, bro. Also, telling your friend that you're setting him up with some hot chick and then bringing the nerdy girl who thinks he's hot there instead.

Also not a prank. Okay, that sounds like a terrible 80s movie. It does. I think that's exactly what it sounds like. I think parts of this case sound like all kinds of crazy different movies the thing where they get the confidential informant to get the wire tap he's got the mob connection i think that sounds like a fucking movie that where they go to dunkin donuts and have the meeting and agree to the pact that they'll take this to the grave that

sounds like a fucking movie i wonder what they all ordered i don't know what do you have a do you have an order at Dunkin Donuts here's the thing I okay controversial I know you lived on the east coast for a long time Kristen yeah and I I mean I would see my friends with their iced coffees from Dunkin Donuts I mean that was like a staple at Simmons University uh yeah back in the day it was like pearl earrings vera bradley bags and the iced coffee from dunkin donuts i always thought it tasted and looked like dirty dishwater did not get it but you know you get me a blueberry cake donut i will be quite pleased they got this donut there and i don't know what it's called, but it is like a powdered donut. And then it's got, oh, it's got this like jelly center chocolate.

No, it's chocolate icing inside of it. Oh, OK. Oh, so fucking good. Doesn't sound too bad, I must say. But this, I tell you what, this case, so I'd never heard of this, but you said it happened in, was it 2000? 2000, yeah. So my freshman year in the dorms was 04. And, you know, it wasn't too awfully far away and i just remember every time the fire

alarm went off and you know like you could smell the popcorn you knew it was the fucking popcorn but every time every ra like forced us out didn't matter what time it was yeah there was always a head i mean it was always so involved and now I'm looking back it's like oh yeah because not that it's probably because of this yes yes wow yeah yeah because when you said the fire alarm went off they realized it was it was the real deal and they didn't know what to do it's like gosh how did you not know what to do? But probably the only reason we knew what to do was because they forced us to take it seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I bet that's exactly right. When have I ever been wrong? Never. Thank you. So you back me up for the time in high school when I fled the scene refused to help my friends

literally I left uh Kate I left her in bed sleeping next to me that's oh my god I like to think I've evolved. Wow. Have I? Let's test it. Yeah, we should. We should put that to the test.

Oh, God. Oh, my gosh. Brandy, that was absolutely awful. How dare you? How dare you do that to us during these trying times? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I just can't believe those fucking shit heads got away with nothing hey don't talk about them that way they've got mob ties they do have mob ties i

know i should be careful those good sweet boys i'm so glad you know they i'm sure they feel bad i'm sure they really learned their lesson yeah oh my gosh i guess when the 20th anniversary of this came about earlier this year that several news sources tried to get in contact with them through their lawyers and neither of them would release a statement obviously yeah but one of them i believe it's sean ryan all his lawyer would say is that he's uh he has a kid now and he's working in home improvement oh okay great okay great best of luck to you yeah you know i can understand why seamus mcgraw was like the only person to have the nuts to cover this because it's like it's so so many years so infuriating so much work hats off to him and there's no payoff no no yeah oh you know what i hate lately i'm sorry

switching gears i just well not really switching gears it's just more stuff i hate more stuff there is a commercial right now i think it's for a bank that's like love isn't canceled birthdays aren't canceled it's like okay nobody thinks that love is canceled right now like i thought love was for sure canceled i filed for divorce i told my family i was done i thought it was all canceled oh my gosh anyway i just think i'm i'm not loving the commercials that are like, we're all in this together. What are we doing to help? Jack shit. But we've come up with this nice commercial here.

Yeah. How you doing, Brandy? I'm doing good. I'm still sweating. I don't know what is happening with me. Did you do something bad? Is it finally getting to you? You finally ready to...

Stage four meltdown here. Ready to admit to it? Whew. I've got to come clean. Should we do some inductions? Yeah, let's do some inductions. Hang on, I've got to... Why are you...

Oh, oh, I'm sorry. Are you not prepared? You know, we just started this episode about five seconds ago, so I'm not prepared in any way. Tell you, this episode has been nuts. OK, guys, this week we are doing names and your favorite movies. And if you're like, what are you talking about right now? Well, let me tell you, for the seven dollar level on Patreon, you get bonus episodes.

You get bonus videos, you get into the discord, you get a sticker, you get a card with our autographs, and you get inducted on the podcast. Here we go. Amy Carnes, Top Gun, Brandon Heavey, The Fifth Element. Amanda Short. North by Northwest. Allie Maddox. Moulin Rouge. Adam and Connor. Oh, hey, guys. Cloud Atlas.

Cody Huggert. Harry Potter. James Hanton. Love Simon. Natasha KW. Die Hard. Opal Roten. Natasha K.W. Die Hard. Opal Roten. Baby Mama.

Taylor Isley. Oh, Steel Magnolias. Ava B. A League of Their Own. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Yeah, guys, welcome. I mean, I'm not gonna get as riled up about it as Kristen is, but no, I'm just kidding. Oh, wow!

Hey, join the Patreon, don't join Brandy doesn't care. Brandy's kind of too cool. She's above it all. I'm like those frat guys. I like to rip down posters just for fun. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah you nerdy ra you worked hard on this yeah i know i actually hate that so much you know what else i hate there was like this trend of like um you know like different stupid like vine videos or viral videos like where little

challenges happen the ones where like the group of kids go into a convenience store and just destroy stuff what that fucking pissed me off so bad you don't remember those ones where they just like go and like push down a shelf or something like that like somebody fucking worked hard for that shit what are you doing yeah someone who is not being paid enough has to set that up and oh god yeah are you trying to make me more mad brandy i'm sorry that just reminded me like i really hate when people just don't appreciate the hard work other people put in i thought you were gonna say so i get annoyed like it seemed like for a while there there were videos going around of

like people messing with drive-thru workers oh yeah stop it stop yes it's not funny It's not cute It's just rude Yeah Yeah This has been your PSA That's exactly We're such We're selling old women Right now

We are And get off my lawn I tell you what I've got my Quarantine hair And let me tell you I am way more gray Than I thought I thought i am so gray had no idea

well yeah i got a few grays up there too you don't have i mean if it's a contest i'm winning you really don't have many at all i mean like right but it's they're really easy yours blend because you've got the blonde mine like fuck they are i have dark hair and so they're really easy yours blend because you've got the blonde mine like fuck they are I have dark hair and so they're just shining like a spotlight out the top of my head okay now as as my stylist and my long-term friend what do you think of this would I be crazy to let my hair go natural because I'm kind of like you know what now that it's not all one color I'm kind of liking it yeah no what you could do'm kind of liking it. Yeah.

No, what you could do is kind of do like a gradual thing where we just like put a few highlights in it to blend it. And then, you know, kind of go from there. No, I don't think that's crazy at all. Okay. All right, friend. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Look out, people.

I am going all natural. That's right. Hey, on the real, folks, we appreciate your support we really so much yes we really really do it means so much to us if you're if you're wondering how else you might support us or if you have some you know free time laying around please find us on social media we're on facebook twitter instagram red Patreon. Find us all those places. Interact with us. We really enjoy it. It's fun. And then subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating. Leave us a

review. And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the article, How the Bizarre Conspiracy Theory Behind Pizzagate Was Spread by Craig Silverman for BuzzFeed, the article Anatomy of a Fake News Scandal by Amanda Robb for Rolling Stone,

as well as the New York Times, Washington Post, NPR, Snopes.com, and Wikipedia. And I got my info from an article by Seamus McGraw for the Crime Library, the New York article by Seamus McGraw for the Crime Library, the New York Times, Seamus McGraw, nj.com, the Court Record, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff.