Let's Go To Court! - 125: Larry Flynt vs. Jerry Falwell & the Murder of Becki Dillard

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

Moody, Missouri, isn’t known for its crime rate. So when a passerby discovered a dead body on the side of the highway, they called 911 and reported a fatal car crash. But when police arrived on the scene, they discovered something much more unusual. The body belonged to 24-year-old Becki Dillard. She had been shot twice. When investigators went to notify the family, they were immediately suspicious of Becki’s husband, Justin. His reactions were strange. But over time, they began to focus on Justin’s mom, Debra Dillard and her boyfriend, Billy Joe Eastep. Then Kristin tells us about Hustler Magazine publisher Larry Flynt. When Hustler hit its peak in the early 80s, it became known and loved for being a smuttier version of Playboy. Hustler’s contents made Larry a lot of enemies, but perhaps none were more passionate than televangelist Jerry Falwell. One day, Larry decided to poke the bear by creating an ad that parodied a popular Campari ad. It was rough. The ad featured an “interview” with Jerry Falwell, in which he confessed that his first sexual experience had been with his mother, in an outhouse. When the reverend saw the ad parody, he was incensed. So he sued. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Jerry Falwell v Larry Flynt Trial,” famous-trials.com, by Douglas O. Linder “Hustler Magazine v. Falwell” entry on Wikipedia “Hustler Magazine v. Falwell” by James C. Foster for mtsu.edu The Supreme Court decision In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Debra Dillard” episode Snapped “Howell County Sheriff Says Woman’s Death Was No Accident” by Kathee Baird, The Crime Scene “Mother-In-Law Charged in Howell County Murder” by Kathee Baird, The Crime Scene “Jury Convicts Debra Dillard of Murdering Daughter-In-Law” by Kathee Baird, The Crime Scene

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Larry Flint versus Jerry Falwell.

And I'll be talking about the murder of Becky Dillard. Brandy, Brandy, Brandy. What? Your baby just waved to me. No! She's still in there. Has this bump gotten significantly larger since last week? You could barely drive the car today. You are so very pregnant so very pregnant yeah so every time i get a text i'm like it's here it's happened i thought that i was gonna get you with that it's happening

oh you sure the other day did did that like no i was referring to that i made the pizza that you guys recommended from but i was hoping you that i made the pizza that you guys recommended from but i was hoping you'd read like just the first line at first and be like oh my god that she's having the baby very rude brandy very rude i don't approve of those types of pranks i would never pull them myself um but no i okay i also have just i have something to say okay in last week's episode where i was like fully prepared for you to go into labor at any minute yeah toward the end you were like you know this house would be like the worst place to go into labor because you and norm are both afraid and i tried to be like no wouldn't be we'd be fine you know it's bullshit you would both be afraid here's the thing

i'd be relying on peanuts in that that moment, I knew you were right. But I was like, what if it happens? I can't admit to her that this would be the worst place on earth for her to go into labor. So I have to lie. Everyone knew I was lying, I think. And fool me. You weren't like, new birth plan. We don't go to the hospital.

Just like you didn't fool me one bit, Kristen, when I told you. What? That my doctor is taking me out of work at 38 weeks. And I text you and you're like, oh, no. Well, look. I'm so, wow. How are you feeling about that? And I was like, well, I'm pretty bummed about it.

And you're like yeah listen i was trying to be a good friend okay it lasted for five seconds i knew that you were upset that you've been told to stop working so i was like oh that's too bad and then i got my confetti can and that's right that's exactly how my dad and david reacted as well well because you can barely go down the stairs, Brandi. Stairs are a real challenge for me at this current time. Yes. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. We basically... I don't have to do a lot of stairs in the salon, though. Listen, David, your dad, and I have formed a club. And in the club, what we want is for you to be on a lily pad somewhere just like perfectly relaxed and just waiting for the mucus plug to, you know. Just pop right out. That's right.

Ooze right out. I'm learning so many gross things. There's so many gross things that happen in pregnancy. Butt swab update. Oh, yeah. Tell them. It was no big deal. She kind of liked it, guys.

I didn't. I would not go that far. She was like, do you have a swab here? Do you guys have a bigger one? Well, they do say you're supposed to graduate off. For maximum pleasure. Oh, God. No, but you've been worried about the butt swab for weeks now.

Yeah, but I told you I wasn't worried anymore after I survived that... The fisting that they call the cervix check. Thank you for explaining what that hand gesture was, because I was about to have to tell you that we were not on a visual medium right now. Which is a shame, because we're so hot. That's right. Do you want to describe my outfit to the listeners why are you wearing sweats it's 8 000 degrees outside oh wow brandy thanks a lot well i'll have you know that i'm still a little bloaty blow you don't have surgery okay well my legs

aren't the greatest they're so pale they're're so pale. Who are you trying to impress right now? You, obviously. I mean, come on. I got my best maternity leggings on. Okay, the truth is, guys, we don't look that great. The shirt that's barely covering this bum. It's called sexy. You know, Britney Spears used to do that all the time back in the day.

Just a little peek. A little peek of the tum-tum. All right. You know, I'm a genius because I know that this week you go first. Yeah. But first, before you get all started on your little murder story. Yeah. We should let people know that if they can't get enough of us, they should head on over to Patreon.

Ooh. that if they can't get enough of us, they should head on over to Patreon. At the $5 level, you guys get bonus episodes and you get into the Discord where we chat. It's a 90s chat room. It's a great thing. But there's no creep asking you your age, sex, or location.

Usually. If that were to happen, we would ban them. And, uh, sorry, that got weird. I'm sorry. Went to weird. I'm sorry. Went to a weird place there, guys. I promise it's pretty safe. The only creeps that are looking you up are me when I have to fill out the Supreme Court card.

Yeah, do you really? Well, uh-oh. I was about to say, do you really want to give her your info? Well, if you sign up at the $7 level, you do. Because then we send you a sticker. We send you a card with our lovely autographs. You get inducted onto the podcast. And you get a monthly video on top of the bonus episodes, on top of the Discord.

What more do you want? I have to admit that I held myself back from doing something creepy while filling out a Patreon card. What'd you do? I was filling it out. Just, you know. Yeah, I understand how filling it out works. Doing the normal address. Looked at the city.

The city this person lived in is the city one of the cases that I have covered happened in. I almost messaged them. I was like, hey, happened to see you live here. Tell me, do you know anything more about this case? I didn't do it. Perhaps you went to elementary school with the person. I realized it was creepy and I held myself back. You got halfway through that message and you deleted it all.

I just deleted it right out of there. Good job, Brandy. Good job. Can you imagine if that's how we lost patrons? You just like gradually creeped out each one of them slowly until they all left. Thanks a lot. I realized it was creepy before I started formulating the message. Okay.

I had it all written out in my head. Yeah, I bet it started like, hey, I don't mean for this to sound creepy. Yeah, I know. Yep, yep, I know you. Excuse me while I take off whole nother person. Yep. Yep. I know you. Excuse me while I take off my... Wow, she's taking off the sweatshirt. Woo! She's just like flexing her guns over there.

They're not great. I mean... You have Michelle Obama arms. No, I don't. I don't do. I'm like if Michelle Obama had surgery and couldn't work out for like a year. Which is a thing... Okay, if anyone's not caught up i had surgery so it's not i'm not like being weird about michelle obama having to have surgery only the best wishes for michelle obama my god goodness gracious um should we talk about

the state of our world briefly? Oh my gosh, yeah. Okay, first off. Yeah. First off. First off. Holy shit. Okay, guys. So, Brandy has passed out.

So, last week, Brandy covered a case. This is just like weird timing. Yeah. That briefly touched on police brutality. Like, very briefly. Yeah. And all the people in it were white and it was old-timey and it was kind of before all this stuff started happening not police brutality

obviously that's been happening forever yes so we didn't really like go into extra context with it we just kind of briefly discussed it and so who then oh my, my gosh. World has. Oh, you know what amazes me? And this is just my privilege talking. My lack of knowledge talking. Uh, watching these videos from these protests and seeing so much police brutality at protests. About police brutality? Yep.

Yeah. So. It is alarming. I did not watch the full video where George Floyd was murdered by that D-bag cop while the other cops looked on. Yeah. Uh-huh. Which this just in, we just learned that the other three cops have been charged. Yeah.

Apparently. Which I've been looking at my watch for a while on that one. No kidding. But so I didn't watch that full video because I was like, I know I can't can't watch someone be murdered. Yeah. But I did watch the CNN crew get arrested live on the air. Mm hmm.

Oh, my God. Yeah. And, you know, a bunch of other clips oh so many yeah so many where you're just like what the what country is this yeah again that's my white lady privilege yeah i mean it completely is that we've never experienced any of that and that it would be i mean to so many people it's not shocking at all that's just what they've experienced in their lives and that it would be, I mean, to so many people, it's not shocking at all. That's just what they've experienced in their lives, and that's just heartbreaking. Yeah. I'm glad we're all waking up, though.

Yeah. Well, not all of us. Yeah. Hopefully some people are waking up and not hiding in their bunker. Brandy, who could you possibly be referring to? You know, the thing is, was it FDR who did his fireside chats? I don't, don't ask me history questions. That is not my strong suit.

If you want, go talk to your husband. Brandy, we were supposed to have good banter there. I had a joke all teed up. Damn it, Brandy. Sorry. Anyway, anyway. Here's the thing. Some presidents, they choose to, you know, address the nation, talk to us through hard times.

Others, not so much. Not as much. Enough of this political podcast. Yeah. Do you want to hear about a murder? I mean, it depends. Enough of this political podcast. Yeah. Do you want to hear about a murder? I mean, it depends. Okay.

Couple of things. Okay. It's been a rough time. This murder is not one that I ever would have covered. It happened in a very small town. There's very limited information about it. Do you not like small towns? No, I love small towns.

Okay. But because it happened in a very small town, there's like no information about it. Okay. So I'm introducing a new disclaimer. Oh, small town disclaimer. I love it. Small town disclaimer. So I had to use a blog as a source on this, which I typically would not do, but she did a really good job on it.

I used a blog by a woman named Kathy Baird. The way that this case fell into my lap was like a gift from the sweet baby Jesus. Okay. I was at work on Saturday, minding my business, had a client come in for a color. Do this client regularly. We're friends on Facebook, like, you come in for a color. Do this client regularly. We're friends on Facebook. Like, you know, regular of mine. You stuffed your hand into her mouth.

No. She has a gentleman friend with her, which I thought was odd. And under the current regulations and everything, you can't bring in your gentleman friend. So he just had to like hang out outside the entire time I was cutting and coloring her hair that's weird that's a long time it is a long time and so i was like hey what's up with your with your friend yeah she's like well so we started messaging on facebook a while back he was like a friend of a friend and like i just like messaged him and we started like you know sending messages back and forth and then he like sent me a message yesterday that he was gonna be in kansas city for the weekend and wanted to see if i wanted to hang out and and so she was

like yeah of course you know let's let's meet they hadn't met in person yet they'd only talked on the phone and texted and whatever so she's like like, yeah, whatever. And he was still there. Wait, like, so it wasn't like, let's get a drink, let's get dinner. It was, let's... No, you can't really do a drink and dinner at this current time. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, so the hangout was just like the hangout that wouldn't end. Okay, oh no.

Because he got a ride into town with someone else and then he couldn't get a hold of that person to get the ride back out of town. I don't know. It was a whole thing anyway. And so it's like, oh, okay. Well, i chatted with him on my way into the salon he was outside and he was like oh i really like your hair and i was like oh thank you that's so nice of you he's like yeah i'm a hairstylist too and so like oh chad for a little bit whatever went inside and so i'm i'm talking to her about this and she's like yeah so we've been talking for a little while.

And then one afternoon I was just like watching a snapped marathon. He was on an episode. What? No. So this guy that was at my salon on Saturday was in an episode of Snapped. No. So I was like, well, I have to fucking do that case. Brandy, Brandy, Brandy, Brandy.

Was he the one who snapped? No. Don't you know how Snapped works? It's always a like, well, I have to fucking do that case. Brandy, Brandy, Brandy, Brandy. Was he the one who snapped? No. Don't you know how snapped works? It's always a woman that snaps. I didn't. Well, I've seen some men snap. No, in the show Snapped, it always features a woman who has snapped. Okay, okay.

Well, I am sorry. It's the basis of the show. Could we have, like, a spinoff show for dudes? Yeah. I mean, there are some angry dudes. I think there'd be no shortage of episodes so I promptly watched that episode well yeah and I'm here to tell you about it today oh my god oh my god this is so exciting like what what choice do I have I have to do that case after

that was just dropped in my lap like that it was the sweet baby Jesus the sweet baby Jesus. It was the sweet baby. The sweet baby Jesus himself gave me this case. Wait, is that what God's doing right now instead of like intervening? God's like, I could do something about all this terrible stuff in the world, but I'm going to help Brandy find her case this way. That's how it works. It was November 13th, 2009 in Moody, Missouri. Hold on. Yeah.

Got to Google. Well, I'll give you some background on Moody, Missouri. Okay. I'm sorry. Don't give me. Man, the eyes. Keep your tits on, ma'am. My tits on?

Is that the phrase? They don't pop off. I can assure you. Okay. So a call comes in to 911 and there had been some kind of accident on Rural Highway FF near Missouri Highway 124. The caller believed that someone was severely injured or that even perhaps there may have been a fatality, as they were pretty sure that there was a body in the road. Oh. Police rushed to the scene because, as the officer put it on this episode of snapped lay it

on me what do we got the faster you can get to the scene when someone is injured the better chance you have of being able to help them slow down is that what they cover in police training? Okay, I think I understand what's going on in the world now. That is like the first minute of this snapped episode, and I was like, Does this man think we are so dumb? Boys, appears there's an injury. I know you want to take your time. I know you want to have lunch, but I think we ought to hustle. Okay.

So Moody, Missouri is a very rural area. It's a very small town. We're talking like 300 people, according to this snapped episode. Damn. It's in the very like southern part of Missouri, like south central Missouri, couple miles north of the Arkansas state line. Okay. You did explain where it was. I didn't need to Google it. I'm sorry for ever doubting you. The closest big city, and I'm using air quotes here. I feel like you're about to get

shitty. What is it? It's Springfield, Missouri. Oh boy. And it's like two hours away. Oh, boy. This is rural. So it is very rural. Did you practice saying rural? I didn't. I'm proud of myself. I mean, you've done a pretty good job so far. Thank you. Okay. Anyway.

Anyway. Officer arrives on the scene of the accident and finds only one car. So he's not sure exactly what had gone on there. But as the caller had reported, there was a body laying on the ground near the side of the road. The officer checked for signs of life and found none. So he went to work shutting down the highway and securing the scene so a death investigation could be done. As he did so, though, a couple of things stood out as odd to him. First, he'd made the assumption, like the person who had called 911,

that this was some kind of car accident, and this victim had maybe been, like, ejected from the car. But the car didn't seem to have any obvious signs of impact, and there were no signs that the victim had been ejected. There was no broken glass, you know, none of that. And there were no obvious signs of trauma on the body. This is weird. Yeah. There was a small amount of blood kind of pooling near the woman's head, but nothing consistent with a fatality accident. But it was the third

thing the officer noticed that led him to call in backup from the county police homicide detectives. Near the victim were two.22 caliber shell casings. This was no accident. This was a murder. While the officer waited for seasoned investigators to reach the scene, he attempted to ID the victim. She appeared to be in her early 20s and she was very petite. We're talking like five foot nothing, maybe a hundred pounds. Same. I 100% knew you were going to say that. You had no idea. All my material is original.

So the officer searched the vehicle looking for her ID and he found it in her purse. The victim was Becky Dillard. And the address listed was just up the road. So as soon as backup had arrived. I was still ready. I'm sorry. I didn't. I don't have the actual address.

I mean, there's probably like five houses. So as soon as backup had arrived, officers made the trip to the address to find out more about becky and notify whomever was at that address of her death well they wanted to be careful with that though because we're talking a very small town immediately they knew that this was not the work of a stranger like everybody here knows everybody Yeah. 300 people. There are no strangers. Someone specifically sought her out. Someone specifically did this to her. And it was likely someone very close to her. And so they arrive at the address and they made contact with Deborah Dillard.

Deborah was Becky's mother-in-law. Turns out that Becky lived at Deborah's house with her husband and with Deborah's boyfriend. So Becky was married to, oh God, why don't I have his name written down here? Brandy. My God. Well, he has two fucking first names and I can't remember which one he goes by. You know me. I always just pick the one I like best, which is rude, okay i was right i just didn't want to get it wrong yeah what's wrong i just found his facebook page and his banner is terrible what's his banner i'm cocky for a big reason oh no no wait what's this fella trying to tell us? Okay, so it turns out that Becky shared the home with her husband, Justin Dillard, and Justin's mother, Deborah Dillard, and Deborah's boyfriend, Billy Joe Estep. Initially, they just kind of asked Deborah, who opened the door like if she knew where Becky was if there

had been anything like odd that night whatever and Deborah was like no no nothing nothing real odd tonight um Becky went to a party um Justin was supposed to go with her, but like Justin is a little bit of a diva and he wasn't ready to go and Becky was. And so she went ahead and went and Justin was following behind her a little bit later. Whatever. At this point, I guess Justin is already back home and the police then they let Debra and Justin and Billy Joe Eaststep all know that there's been some kind of accident and that Becky has been injured. They don't tell you that. What? They wanted to hold back the information that she was actually deceased because they wanted to see how the people closest to her reacted to the information that something had happened to her.

Okay. the people closest to her reacted to the information that something had happened to her. And their concerns with that, what their hopes were, were verified very quickly. They thought that the family reacted very oddly. It seemed that Justin immediately started like mourning the loss of his wife. Oh, I see. So it wasn't like, oh my God, where is she? Let's go, let's go, let's go. Yes. Okay.

When the police made the notification to Becky's mother and stepfather at their residence, they very much had that reaction. Let's get to the hospital. And the police were like, actually, we're going to go down to the police station. We want to do some questioning. And they had the reaction the police expected. Like, why would we go there? Let's go to the hospital. So all of these people are brought down to the police station. We want to do some questioning. And they had the reaction the police expected. Like, why would we go there? Let's go to the hospital.

So all of these people are brought down to the police station. And that's when they're all told that Becky is in fact deceased and that she had been murdered. By this time, they know that she's been

shot in the head twice. She was shot once in the temple and once in the back of the head. Oh. And so they separate the various family members and they start talking about you know what happened that night like who was where who knew where becky was you know all of this because chances are one of them had something to do with this. One or more of them, maybe. Really? Maybe. Okay. So Justin is the first that they sit down and talk to. Justin's the husband. He and Becky have a couple of kids. They have a son named Kobe, who is like, I think he's like five at this point,

maybe not quite that old. And they have a daughter named Cricket who had just turned one. And they sit Justin down and they talk to him and he tells them all about his and Becky's relationship. They had been together since high school. They were best friends first. And then it wasn't until like right after high school that they like started a relationship. And they were, according to Justin, the perfect couple, they had a perfect relationship. They'd gone to cosmetology school together, they both wanted to be hairstylists. And while in cosmetology school, just before they were to get married, Becky found out she was

pregnant. So at that time, Justin's mom, Deborah had set up a portion of their home for them to live in. Like it was theirs, like a little apartment like set up. So Becky and Justin and their new baby all moved in and lived with Deborah. And it was a great setup. They had a built in babysitter. Deborah was like a retired nurse at this point. She had taken care of people her whole life. Justin said like that was her calling.

She was just amazing at taking care of other people. And she wanted nothing more than to take care of this new grandbaby that was her calling. She was just amazing at taking care of other people and she wanted nothing more than to take care of this new grandbaby that was coming. And so it was the perfect setup. They were able to finish school, not have to worry about supporting themselves while they were doing that. They had all free childcare, free place to live.

It was great. Deborah sounds like a saint. Does she? Oh, okay. Yeah, you're right. Snapped only the women. Okay, I'm sorry. I apologize. I would agree. She sounds like a saint. Does she? Oh, oh. Okay. Yeah, you're right. Snapped. Only the women. Okay, I'm sorry.

I apologize. I would agree. She sounds like a saint. Well, you know, these stories always start off well. Okay. Okay. Here we go. So, wait, this is Justin's mom?

This is just, yes, Justin's mom. You met this man? I sure did. Oh, my gosh. Okay, continue. I's mom. You met this man? I sure did. Oh my gosh. Okay, continue. I'm sorry. Continue. And according to Justin, they were the perfect family.

They were a team all the time. Whatever he couldn't take care of, Becky took care of. And if Becky couldn't take care of it, then Debra took care of it. Like everybody supported everybody. It was perfect. On that particular night, yeah, they were all, they were supposed to go to a party together. Becky was going to stop at Walmart on her way to the party to buy some makeup for her sister as a birthday present. So she decided to leave early and go do

that. And then Becky and Justin shared a car. And so he was going to come along later his mom was going to give him a ride the investigators got a weird feeling from justin pretty early on because he seemed very unemotional in his interrogation okay he did a lot of crying without actually producing any tears which was very like that's a red flag to them, obviously. It's like, okay, this is someone who thinks he should be reacting a certain way and is doing his best to show us that he's reacting that way, but it's just not quite right. Brandi, you sound like that cop in the beginning of this episode.

So the faster you get to a scene of an accident, the better chance you have of being able to help someone and when someone is crying there should be tears and the absence of tears is a red flag these are the things they tell you at the police academy but i mean they think his responses are a little bit weird they think his demeanor is a little bit weird but there's nothing more than that to go on. So they move on to the next person. They start talking to Deborah Dillard, Justin's mom.

And she said, yeah, I don't know. There was some kind of argument that night. It seemed like Becky and Justin were arguing about something. And she kind of, like, stormed out of the house and decided to go to the party without him. I don't know what the argument was, but there was some kind of something. But that was it. You know, they really they have a great relationship. Stuff like that rarely happens. You know, it's just one of those things. And then they talked to Becky's mom. Becky's mom had a very different story. Becky's mom told investigators that Becky was extremely unhappy in her marriage.

Whoa. And that she was preparing to leave. Okay. That she had been unhappy since shortly after the birth of their first child. That Justin hadn't seemed like he was ready to step up and be a parent and Becky knew that that's what her life was now like yeah that's what happens when you have a kid you have to you make sacrifices that you're solely responsible for taking care of that new life and she had done that she'd worked really hard she'd gotten a job at a salon. She was, you know, going to work every day.

While Justin was calling into work regularly, he ended up losing his salon job. He went like a year without working, which put all of the burden on Becky. And then there was this situation where they don't have any of their own space. They're living in. Yeah, that does not sound like living the dream. No, they're living in Justin's mom's house. They have no space of their own, no privacy, and had just taken its toll on Becky. Yeah.

And she'd had enough. And so she was hiding money so that she could leave. Oh. She was, like, stashing her tips away. Yeah, yeah. So that she could save up enough money to put money down on an apartment and she could leave. There were only two people who knew that Becky was doing this. Her mom and her sister.

Mm-hmm. And just days before Becky's death, Becky had told them that the money had gone missing. Oh, shit. And that she was just devastated because she had to completely start over where had she stashed the money i don't i don't know where the money was stashed but she had had it stashed somewhere for a long time right right waiting for that moment and then all of a sudden it was all gone yeah and so she was just like deflated like i have to start all over i have to find a new hiding place i have to figure something else out yeah and you can't confront someone

that they've stolen your secret stash of money yeah yeah because presumably it was in the house exactly yes presumably it was in the house and so yeah becky's mother was like things were not great as justin would tell you justin was a heavy drinker he was partying all the time and becky was done with that life becky was a mom and becky's mother's presumption was that somehow deborah had found out about becky's plans to leave and was afraid that she wouldn't see her grandchildren anymore and needed to make sure that Becky couldn't do that couldn't take her grandkids away wow yeah and so the investigators are like okay great they're like you know it's always the husband though right yeah exactly and so initially and that was it like they were totally like zeroed in on justin and and becky's family was like we don't think it's justin yeah

we think it's deborah yeah and so the police are like okay so they get deborah back in there for another interrogation and they ask her to come in and do a polygraph which they talk about a little bit of this and we've talked about that here it's not admissible in court you know it's just they described it as an investigation tool which is what it is it is it absolutely is and so they get her to come in and do this polygraph and they ask her a bunch of questions. You know, were you involved in any way in Becky's death? Do you know anybody who was involved in Becky's death? Then all these questions and she finishes the polygraph and they're like, you know how you did, don't you? And she's like, of course.

And they're like, so, you know, you failed. She's like, what? What? And they're like, so you know you failed. She's like, what? What? And they're like, so it's time to come clean. Like, tell us. Tell us what you know. You are clearly holding back information from us. This is why it's just a tool.

I mean, it's. Yeah. Yeah. And so she like ponders on it a minute. She's like, no, no. I don't know what you're talking about. No. Yeah. And so she like ponders on it a minute. She's like, no, no. Huh? I don't know what you're talking about. No, no.

Did they show the interrogation tape? No. Oh, I wish. Because you know you'd see some great acting. There were only like little bits and pieces of it that were like audio recorded. And so they like looped her voice in every now and again. Yeah. But there was no video of this particular.

I always love to see the acting in these things. Oh, me too. What? Yeah. Me? Me? Oh, I failed the lie detector. And so finally, after them like continually being like, you know, we know you're holding back information. Tell us what's going on here. The polygraph don't lie. That's right. I mean, it does, but she says, yeah, she says, you're right. There is some information that i've been holding back

so to this point she had been telling investigators that her boyfriend billy joe eastip had been home that whole night he'd been drinking that night and then he had like a bad headache he wasn't feeling well and so he'd taken some nyquil and like passed out immediately gone to bed yeah billy told that exact same story when police interrogated him now she says that's not the case billy did leave that night he followed becky they got into some kind of fight and when he came back i never left the house i was at the house the whole time but when came back, he had what looked like it might have been blood on his clothing. She's going to pin this all on him? And he went and took a shower immediately.

That's all I know. I swear that's all I know. Mm-hmm. What? She completely pins it on her boyfriend. Whoa. Yeah. So they're like, okay, so Billy shot and killed her.

Right. And she said, you know. Can't say for sure. Yeah, I can't be certain, but it sure looks that way to me. And they're like, okay. Now, this is a tough question. A tough question, but we've got to ask it. Go ahead.

What is it? At any point in any conversation that you've ever had with Billy, did you maybe suggest or mention or give the idea that you might want harm to come to Becky? And Debra's Deborah's absolutely not. I loved her like she was my daughter. No. What a hard question. Absolutely not.

No, there's not a chance. There's not a chance of that. You know, I love Becky. I love Billy. But the two butt heads constantly. And so police bring in Billy Estip and they arrest him. In the meantime, since Deborah makes this statement before they bring Billy in, an eyewitness comes forward.

They get a call from this guy who happens to be driving on the road that night, that rural highway, FF, whatever. News of this crime has now spread through this small town. It's all gotten all the way to Springfield by now. My God. And he's like, hey, you know, I don't know if this pertinent information, but I was driving that night. I definitely saw two cars pulled over on the side of the road. I know from the news reports that the deceased woman's car was an SUV. I definitely saw that pulled over on the side of the road. In addition to that, there was a car behind her,

looked like a Chevy truck to me. It was dark. I can't tell you who was driving. I don't know anything. But it looked like there were two people standing between the cars having a conversation on the side of the road. Wow. And they're like, okay, you know, was it a man or a woman driving the truck? And he said, it was dark. I don't, I don't know. And they said, well, did they have any facial hair? And he's like, again, it was dark.

I can't even tell you that it was a man. It was dark. He said, the one thing I remember about the truck stuck out to me. It was a dark colored truck with like a light trim around the bottom, but then it had a bright white driver's door. Oh, well, yeah, that would stick out. Yes.

Okay. And they're like, excellent information. Thank you. So, Brandy, what do you make of that? Like in terms of how much easier it would be to catch him? Well, when someone drives a Franken-truck, it makes it much easier to identify. And do you want to take a guess in this case who might have been driving a Franken-truck that night? Brandy, I'm no detective.

I'm going to leave that to you. Keep talking. that to you keep talking so police are like well that's really great information because billy joe east step happens to drive a dark green chevy truck with a white frankendor on it okay yeah looking bad for you billy yes so billy they arrest billy they bring him in they sit him down they're like we know that you had something to do with this. He lawyers up immediately. Won't speak to him. Billy's no dummy. Okay.

But they have enough information to place him under arrest. Okay. And so they do that. He sits in jail for 15 hours and he changes his mind. He wants to talk to police. He wants to talk to investigators. So they bring him back into an interrogation room and they're like why why do you i don't know and they're like okay you know we just want to get

this clear and this is on video they're like we just want to get this really clear earlier when we brought you in here you asked for a lawyer you are revoking that request now and he's like i don't understand what you're saying oh no oh no. Oh, no, Billy. And they're like, okay, well, we have to honor your requests. Like, so before you asked for a lawyer. And then now some time has passed and you've said you want to talk to us. So are you saying that you no longer are requesting a lawyer? And he just kind of sits there in silence. Brandy.

lawyer and he just kind of sits there in silence brandy and they're like okay so are you wanting to talk to us or no and he's like yeah i don't mind talking to you with no lawyer here to tell you that i didn't pull a trigger on anybody oh and they're like okay great so if you didn't pull the trigger who did it and he refuses to say he won't tell them who did it and all he keeps saying is that he's not the one who did it he might know who did but he won't give up that information yeah and they're like okay do you understand the position that you're in right now? It doesn't make any sense. Actually, what they said is that old dog don't hunt. What is that?

Oh, my God. That's got to be a country saying, right? Could we get English subtitles on that? What the hell does that mean? The detective's like, come on, Billy. You know that old dog don't hunt. Well, in fairness, Billy didn't know what revoke meant so maybe we do need a change and so billy's like i understand what you're saying i understand what you're saying and they're like so you if you knew who pulled this trigger who committed this murder and you made the decision not to call us and tell us.

You're involved in this case. You are in it. And he's like, yeah, I get it. And that's all he'll give up. He won't say anymore. And so they send him back to his cell and they move forward with pressing charges against him for the murder of Becky Dillard. Where is his public defender? I mean, I assume that the public defender is like away in the big city.

I'm sure. I'm sure, yeah. Meanwhile, Deborah. How's Deborah doing? Deborah is beside herself. Billy has been arrested. He's been charged with Becky's murder. Beside herself?

Uh-huh. Okay. So she writes out a six-page letter. A full confession that it was she, not Billy, What?

who murdered Becky Dillard on the highway that night. And she sends it out to several friends yeah and one of those friends i hope all of those friends well yeah turn it over to the police the prosecutor reads it and he's like we gotta go get her immediately. First of all, what he said on this Snapchat. What did he say? Was, you know, it was looking pretty good against Deborah. But once we got that letter, we knew we had a case.

He's right. You can't disagree. You can't disagree. So this is a full confession. But there was something about it that was very alarming to the prosecutor. Okay. He thought it read like a suicide note. Oh. And so as soon as the police had it and processed it, they're like, we have to go get her now.

And so they zoom on over to Deborah's house. And she is like, make entry into her home. Brandy, look at you. And she's laying in bed with a pistol next to her. They like bust into her bedroom. She reaches for the gun and they have to like fight it away from her. They pull their weapons on her and take her into custody. Bring her in for an interrogation

this interrogation is recorded excellent and it's amazing okay and so they bring her in and just the portion they show on this snap thing is they're talking about you know the confession letter and everything and and they're like she immediately recounts all of the recants all of the information she immediately recants all of the information we have to keep that in because you sound like billy stop it she recounted it and then she recanted it and they were like lady we don't have time for all this and they're like what do you mean what do you mean can we pause yeah brandy yeah

let's say you receive a six-page handwritten letter from me admitting to a crime oh gosh what do you do how bad's the crime i guess would be the let's say it's murder let's say it's this yeah i probably have to go to police oh you are a terrible friend no i'm gonna go to norm first actually what if it was a murder of norm oh god turn me in yeah for norm or norm um what if it was reversed what would you do you'd take it to police no i would look for the best criminal defense attorney brandy and i Oh, first. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what a good friend does. And then I tweet at Keith Morrison. I'm like, I am available. This is my moment. I mean, this is the differences between you and me. I wished for sunshine and you wished for the end of coronavirus. Well, who's better? You decide you decide tell you what it's sunny outside and the world is ending oh my thanks brandy thanks

anyway so deborah is in interrogation now and she's like no none of the letters true no just a fun uh fanfic for murder. And they're like, okay, so come on. Are you like recanting this information now because you're afraid to go to prison for what you've done? Yes, for sure. And she's like, no, I'm not afraid. I haven't done anything. And they're like, mm-hmm, see, we have this

letter that says that you did in fact murder Becky Dillard. Mm-hmm. And she's like, oh, yeah, it was all a lie. And they're like, mm-hmm, tell us more. I was testing my long-term friends to see if they would go to police or the best defense attorney in the county. Nope, that's not it. She was so distraught that her boyfriend, Billy, was in jail.

Oh, that she wanted to take it. She was going to. So she couldn't live without him. She couldn't handle not having him in her life. And so she wrote the letter to take the fall for what he'd done. But why send it to your friends and not to the police? That's a great question. Thank you.

Well, because the next step after taking the fall for what he'd done was to end her life. Oh, okay. But she chickened out. She hadn't been able to follow through with it. Right. And that's when she was arrested. Okay. When she was trying to talk herself into it.

Okay. And so the police were like okay great see we have a confession from you here and uh you're now under arrest for the murder of becky dillard yeah and they're like why did you implicate billy in the beginning and she's like you know now that i think about it i don't think billy had anything to do with this. I really don't. And they're like, okay, great. You know, it's totally normal for someone to come home every night soaked in blood. So immediately they had thought that Justin had acted super weird and that this was all him.

By this point now, they think Justin had no idea about any of this. Yeah, he's just a guy with weird reactions. Yes. Okay. Yes. These things happen. They a guy with weird reactions. Yes. Okay. Yes. These things happen. They do. His reactions were just weird.

He's just kind of an odd guy. He likely had no knowledge that his mother had done this. In fact, he becomes the person to try and offer up an alibi for her that night. Okay. So they go to trial. And Deborah's trial is first and justin takes the stand in her defense the prosecution's whole case is the letter is the truth billy's version of what happened is the truth he didn't pull the trigger he knows who did how does he know he was there he drove her that night okay and he didn't do anything to stop it

but deborah is the one okay who pulled the trigger yeah i'm just thinking like when it's a gun how much can you do to stop it? Yeah, I mean, you could not drive her to commit the murder. Oh, so he knew he was driving her to commit a murder? That's the prosecution's claim, yes. Okay, okay. The prosecution's claim is that he knew that he was driving her, that there had been a big blow-up that night between Becky and Debra,

and Becky had taken off, and De Debra was like we're going after her everything had come to a head and Debra was sure that Becky was about to take her grandkids away yeah and it was she could had to do anything to keep that from happening and the defense used Debra's claim no you know the confession is not true. She did that to try and get Billy off, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. So Justin takes the stand in his mom's defense and says that she was home the whole night with him. They were watching a movie. What movie? I don't know.

Neither does he because it didn't happen. Yeah. And Debra takes the stand in her own defense. Okay. I don't know, Debra. I know, Debra. I don't think that was a great idea. And Debra talks about how much she loved Becky and she would never do this.

And the letter was all a lie. And she lays out her plan about how, you know, it was just a ploy to try and get, you know, she couldn't live without Billy. She'd felt terrible about the misinformation that she gave, that Billy had been the one to pull the trigger, whatever. The jury was not a fan of Deborah's. They didn't believe her testimony. They didn't believe Justin's testimony. They found her guilty, and she was convicted of first-degree murder murder which in the state of Missouri carries a mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. We're harsh here aren't we? Yeah. Billy Estep ended up pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit

murder. I mean as part of his plea deal he was sentenced to 10 years. Billy Joe Estep was released from prison in 2015 after serving five years of his 10-year sentence. Deborah Dillard is still behind bars and has no chance of parole unless she appeals and whatever. Becky's mother and stepfather have custody of Kobe and Cricket. Good. Of Kobe and Cricket. Good. And Justin Dillard maintains that his mother is wrongfully convicted and had nothing to do with his wife's murder. Wow.

So he lost custody of his kids. I am just now realizing. Sorry. Late to this. Yes. He lost custody of the kids. I don't know. What happened there. Yeah.

I don't know the circumstances around that. He does not have custody of his kids and he believes 100 that his mother is wrongfully convicted wow yeah does he have any thoughts on who really did i think he thinks billy east did it all on his own oh that's weird yeah you met this man i met Okay, we might need to cut this, but what did your client think of him? Is she into him? No, she thought he was really weird. Is she okay with us saying this? I don't know.

We might need to check with her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's what I know I can say. Okay. She thought the encounter with him the weekend was very odd.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so she met him, talked to him, all of this. And then she just happens to see the Snapped episode. And so she's like, hey, you didn't tell me you were on an episode of Snapped. Yeah. And he's like, oh, yeah, my mom's in prison for murdering my wife.

But then that's when he tells his version of the story. He really thinks that his mom is innocent. Oh, my Lord. So Becky's family completely believes that Debra thought Becky was going to take the grandkids away from her and that she thought of those kids as hers. Right. Because she'd been involved in their lives from the time they were born. She'd taken care of them. Okay.

And so she simply could not let that happen. Right. But Becky's mom is like, she never would have taken them. Even if, even. Well, yeah. Yeah. It's like she never would have taken that, even if Justin and Becky got divorced and weren't together anymore. She knew how important it was for them to have a relationship with their grandmother.

She never would have taken those kids away from them. Obviously, this Deborah character doesn't seem like she totally has all her screws in place, as they say. So, yeah, I bet she did misjudge that situation. So the last part of this snapped episode is a little bit with becky's sister and she was like deborah wanted to make sure that she still had those kids in her life and she got too greedy and now she'll never get to see them damn yeah i mean but yeah yeah that's quite the episode of snapped that case really did fall into your lap it sure did that is weird it was the weirdest thing ever brandy yes i'm just like doing my clients here and she's like oh yeah yeah he was on an episode of snapped and i was like i must know everything right this minute.

And then like while her hair was processing, I'm like Googling. You're like, oh, this is just research. Just hair research. Oh, that's strange. Super strange. Yeah. So I met Justin Dillard.

There's a whole host of people online that think that Justin was involved involved in this he knew what his mom was planning i don't actually i don't think that yeah wow and neither did the prosecution the prosecution thought that this all happened behind his back yeah that he didn't didn't know any of this but is his alibi a lie i don't that's what i want to know too his alibi a lie? I don't know. That's what I want to know, too. Because if his alibi is a lie, then that, you know. Yeah. Doesn't look good. Doesn't look good.

Ugh. Ugh. Brandy, can we do a little bit of a palate cleanser? Yeah. You know, I don't know if you know about this, but a little holiday is coming up. Oh, which holiday is that? Well, Earth Day first, and then Father's Day. Father's Day. I thought Earth Day

was in April. Hold on. Is it not? Flag Day! Flag Day is coming up! Damn it! I ruined my own joke. I am so ready for this. Dun- the fudge up so we get to talk about tits and ass this story has everything well jerry falwell he's like a televangelist right am i imagining oh you are not imagining a thing.

We've got something for everyone. What? What? Well, is he Jerry Lee Lewis's cousin? Oh, God, I don't know that. Now I have to know. Go Google. Google away, my friend.

I don't know why that would be a piece of knowledge that I know, but... You have a lot of weird pieces of knowledge. If I may offer an observation no wrong wrong televangelist which one jimmy swaggart is jerry louis's cousin never heard of him and boy do i watch a lot of church tv that's disappointing that i had that factoid wrong well i think we all feel pretty let down you should as you should in light of everything else going on i don't think we can take it okay so shout outs right off the bat famoustrials.com professor douglas olinder has a very good write-up on this should i email him and see if he's okay

with me calling him Dougie O? I feel like he wouldn't. I feel like he wouldn't be. Seems like a real serious guy. That's just the vibe I get from the website. Hopefully he never finds out about us. Even though we do love him dearly. Also, the Wikipedia page was helpful. also um a very special youtube clip was helpful also and i don't think i've ever said this before i watched a movie wow for this i know the people versus larry flynn yeah i was just curious you know it's it's not like a woody harrelson that's right right. Courtney Love. Yeah. Courtney Love can play a drug addict.

Let me tell you. Well, she may. Yeah, I know. I'm just saying. It was a very good performance. I think she should have gotten more than just a Golden Globe nomination.

Anyway, neither here nor there. That's not a documentary, obviously. It was just like after I did all this reading, I was like, I kind of want to see that now.

So I did. Wow, I'm shocked that you watched it. Well, I'm pretty bored cooped up at home. Okay. It was the early 80s and Campari, which is an Italian liqueur, was running a very

sexy ad campaign. In a page... You guys, you can't see it, but we're rolling our shoulders here. We're doing sexy shoulders. Just trying to set the mood. We got a candle lit. We do have a candle lit. So in a page of a magazine, they'd have a picture of a celebrity.

And alongside that picture, they'd run an interview with the celebrity. Alongside that picture, they'd run an interview with the celebrity. And it would be about their first time. Oh! Wink, wink. And the celebrity would talk all about their first time and how great it was and how magical it was. Brandy, what? And wow, oh wow, whoo, it'd get steamy.

But then you'd get to the end of the interview, Brandy, and turns out they were talking about their first time drinking Campari. Oh! You and your dirty mind. So clever. Campari was so proud of their little ad campaign. They ran it with a catchy little slogan. Campari, you'll never forget your first time. And then like a winky face.

Yeah. They invented the winking emoji. This may surprise you, but some people thought that this ad campaign was stupid. And some of those people worked for Hustler magazine. Hustler magazine, which is apparently still a thing, which I don't understand. Like, have people not heard of the Internet where porn is free porn? I love that thing. Breaking news.

You don't have to embarrass yourself and buy yourself a copy of this movie who's buying porno mags anymore you know what nudie magazine day what billy madison oh okay watch a movie i'm sorry i feel like every time you say watch a movie it's about an adam sandler um no i i have you watch uncut gyms yes loved it very good very that's the most stressful movie i think i've ever seen no 1917 i haven't seen it yet oh wait for it okay i don't know what you're waiting for no so i have i feel the same way about like brick and mortar sex shops yeah there's one like just down the road.

It's on a very busy intersection. There's a McDonald's right across from it. So you get your McMuffin and get your. Okay. But I'm just like, why embarrass yourself? Yeah. When you can just. Order stuff off.

Order that big fist dildo off of Amazon. Or hear me out. Get pregnant. Do the cervix check. Just like, Randy, yeah, insurance will pay for it. There's no better deal in town. Okay. So anyway, Hustler magazine hit its peak in the early 80s.

It's known as, like, the much less classy, much more hardcore version of Playboy. Brandi's nodding because she knows all about this. I know all about it. I have the full catalog. A collection. And it's published by a dude named Larry Flint. Yes. Larry Flint got his start by running a bunch of unsuccessful strip clubs in Ohio.

No. Why were they unsuccessful? Well, you see, Brandi, when a business doesn't bring in enough... He shot me! What do you mean. Why were they unsuccessful? Well, you see, Brandy, when a business doesn't bring in enough... He shot me! What do you mean, why were they unsuccessful? So, he started Hustler Newsletter as a way to drum up business

for his strip clubs. But turns out, people were way more into the newsletter than they were the strip clubs, and eventually... How saucy was that newsletter? Well, my guess is that kind of based on the movie but whatever is that he wasn't well versed on obscenity laws which obscenity laws it's why playboy has very good articles yeah is because you've got to kind of

balance things out and like taken as a whole it's what what fun fact about a playboy article norman was interviewed yes and at first norman was like ew what you know playboy wants to interview me and i was like no honest to god they do have very good articles there's very good journalism in playboy and that's mainly because of obscenity laws they've got a you know i can't remember it all but it's like the majority of the work of art has to be, you know, good, clean fun, basically. And so you can have a few little photos. Yeah. But I'm guessing Hustler Newsletter was probably just like just up close shots of a beef, you know, and like no articles.

That's what I'm guessing. And so anyway, it was very popular. Probably obscene. Probably. Eventually, the newsletter became a magazine. But initially, the magazine struggled. But then, a member of the paparazzi took a bunch of nude photos of Jackie O. Sunbathing nude.

Yeah, I hate this. Hate it. Oh, sunbathing nude. Yeah, I hate this. Hate it. And went to Larry Flint and was like, hey, I have these creepy photos that I took of Jackie Kennedy without her knowledge or permission. Would you like to buy them? And he did?

Oh, yeah. And he published them. And of course, the magazine sold out. And that's how struggling businessman Larry Flint became a millionaire. Oh, my gosh. What a scumbag. Yeah, that fucking sucks. I hate it.

Thanks. I hate it. I did not know that. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I kind of walked into this like, yeah, he's probably a scumbag. And then, oh, that's how you found financial stability. Great. Cool.

So you found financial stability. Great. Cool. Side note. In 1978, a few years after he became a millionaire, a white supremacist slash serial killer from Missouri shot him while he was walking out of court. Is that why he's in a wheelchair? Yes. Okay.

Yes. chair yes okay yes so apparently the shooter was angry because larry flint ran photos of an interracial couple like doing sexy times in hustler oh i don't know that's it well i mean he's a white supremacist i guess he was quite upset i also realized i called them an interracial couple i bet they were not a couple. I mean, like, probably two models. I'm bringing my own experience into this. Well, I'm sure they were in love. Your experience as an interracial couple? No, my experience is like, well, they're having sex, so they probably know each other pretty well. So ever since the shooting, Larry Flint has been paralyzed from the waist down. Oh, spoiler alert, sorry. Why?

Because I already said he was in a wheelchair. I mean, I think most people know. Okay. And I mean, you know, it was coming in the next paragraph. Although, please send all hate to Brandy. Stop saying that. It's the second episode in a row you've said that. I don't want it.

I'm planning on saying it for every episode moving forward because I don't want the hate. Side note. So the shooter was a man named Joseph Paul Franklin. And years later, he confessed to the shooting. But by that point, he was already in prison for being a white supremacist. No, for being a serial killer, white supremacist we're fine with that hey okay and he was put to death by the state of missouri in 2013 oh wow yeah i'm probably could do a whole case on that guy i probably could not interesting anyway this is all to say that larry flint had a lot of enemies on all sides. Yeah. A lot of feminists didn't like him. A lot of religious people didn't like him. Apparently white supremacists didn't like him. So hating Larry Flint was like an issue we could all agree on.

But back to the main story. Because everyone could get biased. The folks at Hustler thought that this Campari ad was stupid um campari campari i've never heard of it oh well i've we had a little mini like airplane bottle of it once in the house i think we still do because i don't know what it is i don't know if it's any good and i've never tried it hmm it's oh it's a bitter yeah spicy and sweet oh just like myself so they decided to poke fun at this and they created created their own campari ad featuring a fake interview with a very real very horrifying man named Jerry Falwell. Rest in peace.

Jerry Falwell was a big time televangelist and conservative activist. He founded Liberty University and he had so many bad takes. Are you ready for a few? Yeah. I've got just a sampling. We're just going to sprinkle them. Yes. I'm super anti-gay.

Oh, here's a quote. AIDS is not just god's punishment for homosexuals it is god's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals oh oh yeah we got like a real fred phelps vibe real real cool guy yeah okay yep here's another in 1999 he became famously outraged when he caught wind of a children's program called teletubbies do you remember this no i mean i know the teletubbies okay he thought that tinky winky who was purple and had an upside down triangle on his head was like some secret gay role model for children they're trying to like indoctrinate the kids yeah this guy thinks alex jones got something to do well in fairness you know a lot of people have come out since the teletubbies so

i think it's all because they've all cited tinky w, and they've all cited Tinky Winky. They've been like, I didn't think I was gay, but then Tinky Winky came along. I'm struggling to remember all of the Teletubbies now. I mean, it was a little after our time, so it'd be kind of weird if you remembered all the Teletubbies. Tinky Winky, Poe, Lolly. I have no idea. Are you looking up the teletubbies? Of course I'm looking up the teletubbies. You know what drives me crazy when I don't know something? Can you be like me and just be happily dumb? No.

This is why you're so good at trivia. Yeah, because now this is going to be a trivia question, and I know it. Tinky Winky, Dipsy, Lala, what did I say? I don't care. I said Lolly and Po say? I don't care. I said Lolly and Poe. I don't care. You know what's funny? You didn't even seem to register that.

And I was like, I got away with that. It's just fine. Here's another. This is a real bad take. Okay. I mean. As opposed to those great ones that he's already had? Yeah, sorry. That sounded terrible. real bad take okay i mean as opposed to those great ones that he's already had yeah sorry that's

kind of terrible in the aftermath of 9-11 oh no yeah i'm not prepared here's how we start the sentence he had an explanation for why such a horrible thing had happened you ready no you're ready for whose fault it is no i really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, Who the fuck does that leave, you helped this happen. Who does that leave? Himself.

Yeah. Wow. Pretty. Hot take. Pretty awful. Yeah. Pretty awful. So Jerry Falwell sucked.

And so did Larry Flint. Yeah. But they both sucked in different ways and they hated each other for it. They saw each other as opposite ends of the spectrum. One was the dirty pornographer, and the other was the judgy televangelist. Personally, I think they had a bit in common, but whatever. Anyway, so when Hustler made their fake Campari ad, they ran it as an interview with Jerry Falwell. I will now read you the ad in its entirety.

And holy Moses, buckle up. So, you know, the headline, Jerry Falwell talks about his first time. And there's this like picture of him and he's kind of doing a little smile. He's got his chin and his hand like cute. And there's like the bottle of Campari he's kind of doing a little smile. He's got his chin and his hand like cute. And there's like the bottle of Campari on one side and like a little glass. And it's the interview set up. So here we go. Falwell.

My first time was in an outhouse outside Lynchburg, Virginia. Interviewer. Wasn't it a little cramped? Falwell. Not after I kicked the goat out. Interviewer. Wasn't it a little cramped? Falwell. Not after I kicked the goat out. Interviewer. I see. You must tell me all about it.

Falwell. I never really expect to make it with Mom, but then after she showed all the other guys in town such a good time, I figured, what the hell? Oh, no. Interviewer. But your mom? Isn't that a bit odd?

Falwell. I don't think so. Looks don't mean that much to me and a woman. Interviewer. Go on. Falwell. Well, we were drunk off our ass, our God-fearing asses on Campari, ginger ale, and soda.

That's called a fire and brimstone at the time. And Mom looked better than a Baptist whore with a $100 donation. Interviewer. Campari and the crapper with Mom. How interesting. Well, how was it? Falwell. The Campari was great, but Mom passed out before I could come.

Oh, it's rough. No! Interviewer, did you ever try it again? Falwell. Sure, lots of times, but not in the outhouse. Between Mom and the shit, the flies were too much to bear. Oh, my gosh. We're wrapping up here.

It's okay, Brandy. Interviewer. We meant the Campari. Falwell. Oh, yeah. I always get sloshed before I go out to the pulpit. You don't think I could lay down all that bullshit sober, do you? Oh, I'm sure he was not a fan of that i can't party you'll never forget

your first time what do you think brandy oh that he's gonna be real riled up when he sees that what's your reaction oh i think it's terrible but it's funny okay i i kind of feel the same way like i was kind of laughing at the beginning and then as it gets like real, it's bad. It's bad. So Larry Flint and the editors at Hustler thought this ad was hilarious, but at the insistence of Hustler's in-house lawyer, they put a disclaimer at the bottom of the ad. It read, ad parody, not to be taken seriously. So are they protected in a court of law listen to find

out also in the table of contents the ad was listed as fiction ad and personality parody then they printed the issue not long after the issue came out jerry falwell was leaving a news conference in washington dc and a reporter stopped him. And the reporter was like, hey, have you seen that parody ad that Hustler did about you? And Jerry was like, yeah, obviously I've got a subscription. What? No, so he kind of like brushed off the question, got back to his office, and he told one of his staffers, hey, get me the latest issue of Hustler. The staff member left, came back with it.

Jerry Falwell opened it up. And he was horrified. Yeah. He felt like weeping. He had never been more angry in his entire life. The worst part, they had besmirched. Even about the gays in the ACLU? I mean, obviously he's very upset about all the work us feminists did to, you know, crash those planes

into the Twin Towers. But, you know, this also ranked up there. Okay. The worst part was that they had besmirched and defiled his dear mother's memory. Which that does suck. It does. Yeah. So Jerry Falwell looked himself in the mirror and he said, Let's go to court. He sued Larry Flint and Hustler Magazine for libel, invasion of privacy,

and intentional infliction of emotional distress. I feel like Hustler's going to be protected by parity law. Why? They specifically said it was parity law? Yeah. And it's clearly a parity law? Yeah. Uh-huh.

What about emotional distress? Yeah. I don't know. Why don't you tell us? He wanted $45 million. Jeez. yeah i don't know why don't you tell us okay he wanted 45 million dollars adjusted for inflation that's 115 million dollars wow but um lawsuits can be expensive i don't know if you knew it uh so he got a little help from his friends a years earlier, he'd formed a political action group called the Moral Majority. And they did super important work, Brandi.

Yes, yes. Like telling women to not get abortions and pushing for prayers in school. Obviously Christian prayers, duh. Super important work, so stop making that face. I don't care for it at all. So he sent a letter to all 500,000 members of the Moral Majority. And he sent another letter to another group of 30,000 of his major donors.

And he sent another letter to 750,000 people who were fans of the Old Time Gospel Hour, which was his TV show that sounds atrocious. I fell asleep while you were saying the name of it. Didn't make it past old time. So in those letters, he told people about the ad. And in one case, he actually included the ad with the letter in one batch of them. Yeah. And he asked them for help. Here's part of what one of the letters said. The billion dollar sex industry of which larry flint is the self-described leader is preying on innocent impressionable children to feed the lust of depraved adults larry flint's the leader of the sex industry yes i don't think so yes he's the self-described leader and he's

preying on innocent impressionable children to feed the lust of depraved adults. Okay. Where do the children come in? Okay, I'm glad you mentioned the children, because I am... The children are mentioned many times. And, I mean, Hustler's not for children. No! And it doesn't feature children.

And so I'm kind of like, how are the children... I'm glad you spelled that out for us, that Hustler's not for children. You know what? Somewhere right now, a child is listening to this podcast, this explicit podcast. And they just put down their copy of Hustler. Oh, my gosh. This makes so much sense. I was so confused by this.

I thought this was a children's book. I thought this was Sweet Valley. Oh, gosh. This makes so much sense. I was so confused by this. I thought this was a children's book. I thought this was Sweet Valley. Oh, gosh. Then it said, Will you help me defend myself against the smears and slander of this major pornographic magazine? Will you send me a gift of $500 so that we may take up this important legal battle? He asked over a million people for $500? Well over a million.

Yeah. I don't, now this is just a- 750 plus 200 plus- I'm sure the ask was different depending on the audience. Yeah, that's probably true. I'm guessing the old time gospel choir, you know, it's more like whatever you can spare. But like the major donors you know go big or go home brandy how much money you get ask and you shall receive how much money did he get

donations how much money did he get soon jerry falwell had raised more than 717 000 to launch his lawsuit wow when it came time to choose his attorney, Jerry knew right where to go. See, he just finished unsuccessfully suing Penthouse. And the lawyer who defended Penthouse was a guy named Norman Roy Grutman. And obviously he'd done a good job. So Jerry hired him. See, I don't know if this is the right place to say it. I'm a little skeptical about how heartbroken and upset he was over this parody ad. Yeah. I mean, obviously, it would be rough.

And especially if your mother had died, like that would be. It would be rough but he immediately raises a ton of money he sets himself up so he could potentially get a ton of money he's getting all this publicity from this lawsuit i don't know are you saying that he's not the moral mature Charlie? Oh, no. He seems like a great guy. Meanwhile, Larry Flint was very much accustomed to being sued. He once famously shouted, fuck this court in a courtroom.

And he also once famously wore the American flag to court as a diaper. Yeah. Did you already know that? Yeah. Yeah, okay. So Larry called up his legal team and he's like, do your thing, I'll do my thing. And his legal team filed a copyright infringement lawsuit against Jerry Falwell. I think just to be dicks.

I was going to say, yeah, where's the... So their logic was that, you know, Jerry had printed out that ad a bunch and put it in with some of those donation request letters. And they're like, that's our ad. You didn't have the right to do that. That's pretty good. And, yeah, I mean, that seems like an odd strategy. You're so emotionally distressed by the ad that you're sending it out to a million people.

That seems weird. Yeah, you'd maybe not want everybody to see it. And you're so worried about the children. You wouldn't want the children to see that. That's right. To their home. Yeah. I'm starting to think this Jerry Falwell guy's full of shit maybe

um obviously that got dismissed because it was clearly fair use yeah but in the meantime Larry Flint was like oh you don't like my parody ad well I'm gonna run it again in the March issue and you're gonna double hate it then Larry Flint hired Alan Isaacman, who has since represented like Geraldo Rivera and Kathy Griffin and la la la. But at the time, Alan was just a Harvard educated lawyer with a kind of sweet, aw shucks-y attitude. I bet you're ready to hear about a trial. I am. Well, hold on, sweet cheeks. a trial i am well hold on sweet cheeks oh because first i have to take you on the wild ride that was larry flint's deposition oh yay it took place in a prison in north carolina why well our good

pal larry was there because he was being held for contempt of court which was a result of one of his many other legal issues um i wonder if this was the diaper incident i don't know meanwhile our pal jerry falwell had recently announced that he was seeking the republican nomination for president so you know these dudes were kind of you know at different places in their lives not judging just saying absolutely there larry was looking like shit covered in bed sores chilling in a north carolina prison and the deposition begins okay our good friend dougie o lender from famous trials.com refers to this deposition as and i'm quoting perhaps the most bizarre vulgar and self-destructive deposition in, and I'm quoting, perhaps the most bizarre, vulgar, and self-destructive deposition in legal history. Wow. Okay. So I want to pause here because, you know, then he goes to describe

the deposition and he gives some direct quotes and yeah, they're pretty bad, but I was kind of like, I don't know, most bizarre, most vulgar? Doesn't seem like super crazy. How bizarre? How bizarre? Da-na-na, da-na-na. Cruising down the freeway in the hot, hot sun. So I was like, I wonder if somebody's uploaded a little bit of this to YouTube. Yeah. Holy smokes smokes they had douglas olinder had tried to save me from myself it was terrible it was disgusting so

here we go okay the whole time larry flint makes it super clear that he thinks this whole thing is a joke he is a dick the entire time i cannot stress it enough he has all attitude within the first couple minutes of questioning this this is terrible within the first couple minutes of questioning he picks his nose and he eats it oh god it is what you're totally unprepared for it. It's disgusting. I know. I know. I almost vomited. Oh.

Yeah. Yeah. So, again, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know you can't handle it. I can't handle it. I can't handle it, Kristen. You know what? We're moving on.

We're moving on. Okay. So the following account I have here is just a mashup of the highlight reel from YouTube and the summary from FamousTrials.com. Okay. I'm ready. I'm sorry. I know that's gross.

I about vomited. Yeah. Okay. Well, stop talking about it. At one point, pretty early on in the deposition, Larry was like, hey, just so you know, I can receive radio signals. And Jerry Falwell's lawyer was like, like okay and he started to ask a question and larry flint was like bravo november bravo whiskey bravo 11 they know what that means bob can you give me an eta on it later larry was like oh the ad well you know it was a really a

collaborative effort i had help from billy idol yoko Ono, Jimmy Carter, and Ted Nugent. And finally, the lawyer. Ted Nugent, famously extremely conservative, by the way. Which is weird that he was so helpful with this ad, right? Also, Jimmy Carter being president and all, you would think he wouldn't have taken the time. Also, Jimmy Carter being president, you would think he wouldn't have taken the time. Finally, the lawyer was like, are you determined, Mr. Flint, to make a mockery of this deposition? And he nods, yes.

And the lawyer says, do you wish to pretend that you don't understand my questions? And then Larry Flint nods and then kind of stops and then he shakes his head he's like oh shit shit at another point he was like yep everything that goes in hustler has my approval definitely meanwhile larry flint's poor legal team they are like oh my god shut up dude this is terrible stop stop but he kept going because he could not be tamed. So Norman, Jerry Falwell's attorney, was like, hey, do you have any information that Reverend Falwell ever committed incest with his mother? Don't know. That's a terrible question to ask.

Why? What do you think he's going to say, Brandy? Obviously he's going to say no. It's just a parody he's not gonna say that i'm gonna say like yeah i'm not even gonna venture a guess what he's gonna say it's gonna be terrible here we go larry was like oh yeah captain joe sively of the business of Prisons told me. So I assume he was right there in the room. And oh, for sure, three people in Virginia actually witnessed them having sex and they all signed affidavits. So the attorney, of course, latches on to this. with this shit-eating grin tells this clearly made-up story about how one time when jerry falwell was about the age of puberty he went into an outhouse with his mom's picture tucked inside

a sears roebuck catalog and masturbated to it and brandy three boys all saw this happen somehow. Okay. And those same three boys, all right, they all saw his mom catch him doing that years later. And that's when she, quote, taught him a lesson on the birds and the bees. Oh, no. And the lawyer was like, these same boys somehow saw all of this? And he goes, doesn't that stretch the limits of credulity? And I don't think Larry knew what that word meant. So he just kind of tapered off. I mean, the funny thing is, when you read this stuff, it sounds just terrible.

But there's something funny about watching him smile while he's like, oh, yeah, I've got affidavits. I mean, he's just so full of shit. He knows it. He thinks this whole process is bullshit. Okay. At one point, Larry said he was anti-Bible, anti-religion. He said the Bible was the biggest piece of shit ever. And then he was like, I hate child molesters.

And then he goes on this big rant about child molesters. So, in summary, I don't know how to feel. I'm with him there. I hate the nose picking. Then he claimed that he had a picture of Jerry Falwell masturbating. And he also claimed that he had a picture of Jerry Falwell, quote, fucking a young girl. then he had a picture of jerry falwell quote fucking a young girl and then he claimed that he had a picture of jerry falwell fucking a sheep so you know he's just got all this stuff it's a sheep now it was a goat in the ad i'm sure he has all of these things okay duh brandy

and yep i wanted to run that ad because i'm vindictive i just wanted to settle a score with jerry falwell i wanted to assassinate his integrity and again he you know his lawyers are like oh shit shut up yeah then he goes the only reason i included the disclaimer at the end of the ad is because of and then he points to his in-house lawyer and he goes, that asshole's sitting over there. At some point, he told Jerry Falwell's lawyer that he wanted to take a shit right on top of your head. Wow. Larry Flint's legal team was, to put it delicately, boned. They were like, holy shit, we have to get this deposition thrown out this is terrible for our case so alan isaacman who was larry's attorney was like judge the this deposition has to be thrown

out larry was mentally incompetent at the time of this deposition he was in the throes of manic depression he was heavily medicated you gotta throw it out. But Jerry's lawyer, Norman Gretman, was like, I'm actually a huge fan of this deposition. I've grown quite attached to it. How about we keep it and we show it to the jury and we just let the jury know that Larry Flint was having some medical issues and let them decide for themselves how they feel about this deposition yeah the judge thought it over and she decided to exclude the deposition now it's December of 1984 and the trial has begun but on the first day of trial the judge was like yeah I changed my mind about that deposition. Let's go ahead and throw it back in.

And Falwell's legal team, they danced, they cheered, and Flynn's legal team, they burst into tears. You know, I'm guessing. So this trial was fairly short, and Jerry Falwell took the witness stand pretty early on, and like any good preacher he told his story his family had roots in virginia going back to the 1750s his dad had been an alcoholic but ever since jerry found jesus he'd been a teetotaler which i think is a stupid word

but anyway that's what he was he spoke highly of his mom he said she was a godly woman. She'd been nearly a saint. And his relationship with her had been very, very intimate. Ew. I know. Why would he say that when the claim is that he fucks his mother? Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was a very, very odd choice of words.

But that's what he said. Okay. Jerry wasn't afraid to speak highly of himself, Randy. He, okay, controversial. In the FamousTrials.com write-up, he referred to himself as the second most admired American behind the president, which I think makes him sound like a super douche. But in the movie, which again is a fictionalized account, in the movie he says that good housekeeping

ranked him the second most admired American behind the president, which I think sounds much more believable. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So? Yeah. So anyway, just throwing that out there. Jerry talked about his career and all of his accolades and how he had worked with every breath in his body to influence the public's opinion on pornography.

At some point, his lawyer cut to the chase. He said, Mr. Falwell, specifically, did you and your mother commit incest? And Jerry thought for a long time. What? And he scratched his head. What? No, I'm just kidding. Oh, my God.

He immediately was like, that's a question you just, right on. No. No, he said, absolutely not. All right, good. Then the attorney busted out a couple issues of Hustler and had Jerry leaf through them. And the lawyer, this sounds so weird to me, the lawyer was like, does this magazine contain pictures of lesbians? And Jerry was like, it does. Full color?

Full color. Does it show naked women lewdly exposing themselves yes does it have pictures of interracial sex it does oh my gosh which i'm sorry pictures of interracial sex get over it i mean the white supremacists and these guys obviously had something in common. They were equally scandalized. I wish there had been more more on that because I would love to know more about their takes. But anyway, there's simply no time. Then they talked about the parody ad and how much it had hurt Jerry's feelings. Jerry said that the ad was, quote, the most hurtful, damaging, despicable, low type personal attack that I can imagine one human being can inflict on another.

Then Larry Flint took the stand and he didn't pick a single booger. And I'm just real proud of him. Why did you have to bring this up again? I'm sorry. I had it in the script and I'm sorry. He was him. Why did you have to bring this up again? I'm sorry. I had it in the script, and I'm sorry. He was dressed better. He looked better. And he was like, look, during that deposition, I was in a bad spot.

I was in pain. I'd been in solitary confinement. I was suffering from manic depression and paranoia. The works. Then his testimony shifted toward the ad. And Larry was like, look, I have no personal animosity toward Reverend Falwell. We just wanted to make fun of those Campari ads, you know, and Jerry Falwell seemed like the perfect subject because it was so obvious

that he would never do any of the things we talked about. It's just meant to give people a chuckle. Mm-hmm. But then came the cross-examination. Jerry Falwell's legal team made it their mission to get the jury to see that the real Larry Flint was the guy they saw in the deposition, not the composed, polite man they saw today. And Jerry's lawyer, Norman Gretman, knew just how to do it. He'd found a fucking gross quote from an interview that larry had given a couple years earlier what's the quote he wanted to he wanted the jury to hear it okay so he goes

in 1975 did you give an interview in which you said i like to lay beneath a glass coffee table and at this point okay larry flint's lawyer alan jumps up and he's like objection but norman keeps going and he's like and watch my girl shit and alan's like i beg your honor please and the judge's like i'll allow it okay i have terrible news what you don't know how the quote ends douglas olender who who, I mean, helped tremendously with this script. I mean, it's all good stuff. He thought we were too delicate to hear the rest of this quote. He just gives us the summary.

The direct quotes are donezo. I tried looking on newspapers.com. I tried my Google machine. I couldn't find the full direct quote this i am begging you listeners if anyone can find it i want to hear it here's the summary the quote was about poop and anally raping 10 year old paper boys and then slitting their throats with a razor. That went a different direction than I thought it would. Not quite the sexy good time you thought it was going to be?

Well, I didn't think it was a sexy good time. Well, glass coffee table. Watch your woman take a shit. Yeah, I'm checked out already. No, thank you. So this lawyer reads this awful, disgusting quote, and Larry was like, that was just a bizarre joke. And Norman was like, and you once told Vanity Fair that the Bible was the biggest piece of shit ever written.

Which I feel like, okay, lead with that quote and then go to the 10-year-old paper boys. Right? I mean. All I can think of is herbert the pervert now paper boy come get your picture out of my pocket well that's pretty good so larry's like yeah i mean yeah probably i might have said that. Then came the other witnesses. A doctor said that Larry was heavily medicated and that he was manic at the time of the deposition.

One of Jerry Falwell's friends testified that Jerry had been very upset by the parody ad. A representative from Campari was like, we also didn't like that ad. Before the jury went into deliberation, the judge told them that in order for there to be defamation larry flint would have had to have made false statements about jerry falwell that were reasonably understood as facts yeah yeah then she said for intentional infliction of emotional distress there there's a different standard. The statements don't have to be believable. All you're looking for here is whether Larry intended to inflict distress on Jerry and that what he did was outside the accepted bounds of decency. Well, yeah, I think that one definitely did a big checkmark next to that one.

With that, the jury went into deliberation, and of course, when they came back out, they decided that there had been no defamation. Obviously, no one's going to read that and be like, oh my god, it is a terrible true story. But they decided that, yeah, Larry Flint and Hustler

Magazine had intended to emotionally distress Jerry Falwell, and yeah, what they've done was outside the accepted bounds of decency yeah so they awarded jerry falwell a hundred thousand dollars in compensatory damages and a hundred thousand dollars in punitive damages larry flint and hustler Magazine decided to appeal. So, just quick aside. What? What? Well, I don't know what there is to appeal on. I think that they clearly met the definition of the emotional damages or whatever.

So, I would think at a certain point, and I don't know at what point they had the Supreme Court in mind, you decide that definition is what we're fighting. Yeah, we're fighting for free speech. Yeah. All right. All right. All right. So in the movie, I thought this was interesting. And this is true.

So at the time, Larry Flint was married uh to his third wife who contracted aids and later died from aids well drowning okay well anyway i'm sorry you get the idea yes but how they have this in the movie and i think the timing does somewhat check out is that the verdict came in from this trial court you know it seemed fine whatever but then jerry falwell started in on people with aids or blah blah blah they're these terrible people and larry flint was like fuck that guy yeah yeah let's go for another round in court so but of course the appellate court did not find in their favor they were the three judge panel was was like, no, dude, you said in your deposition that you wanted to assassinate Jerry Falwell's character.

The jury's verdict was spot on. Get out of here. But Larry Flint wasn't happy with that. So he took his case all the way to the Supreme Court. Slowly, other publications came to Hustler's defense. Wow. Initially, they were like, ew, you guys are gross, and we're real journalists. But over time, they were like, you know, the outcome of this case will affect all of us.

Yeah. If any public figure can sue anytime they're emotionally distressed by parody or satire, then we could all be screwed. Yeah. We need to band together. So a ton of publications wrote amicus briefs in support of Hustler magazine. Then, in December of 1987, the Supreme Court began hearing the case. Alan Isaacman, who's Larry's attorney, did an amazing job. He made it all about the slippery slope.

He said, quote, If Jerry Falwell can sue because he suffered emotional distress, anybody else who's in public life should be able to sue because they suffered emotional distress. And the standard that was used in this case, does it offend generally accepted standards of decency and morality, is no standard at all. Yeah. Which, true. Yeah. He talked a lot about the importance of protecting satire and the importance of being able to parody and talk about political leaders, something Americans have done since the beginning of america until america ends in 10 minutes i don't know when falwell's side took over

norman grutman i don't think he did so hot personally he was like deliberate malicious character assassination is not protected by the first amendment. And the judges were like, okay. But what clear line can you draw between that fake Campari ad and other kinds of satire or political cartoons? Those can be kind of nasty too. How do we decide what's okay and not okay? You know, they're looking for like this clear definition. I'm going to read you Norman's response.

I think it's convoluted as hell, but you be the judge. If the man sets out with the purpose of simply making a legitimate aesthetic, political, or some other kind of comment about the person about whom he was writing or drawing, and that is not an outrageous comment, then there's no liability. Mm-hmm. Did you follow that pretty well? That was so vague.

So it's, I guess it's all about, like, outrageousness and what's in the person's heart as they do it. Yeah, it's intent, yeah. Which, oh, okay. In February of 1988, the Supreme Court announced their decision. It was unanimous. They sided with Larry Flint. Here's part of what they said.

At the heart of the First Amendment is the recognition of the fundamental importance of the free flow of ideas and opinions on matters of public interest and concern. of the free flow of ideas and opinions on matters of public interest and concern. They went on to say that essentially being able to debate big public issues is critical. And if we have to ask ourselves whether the speaker had a bad motive, then that could have a chilling effect on free speech. And that's just too big a risk. Here's a fun fact. The opinion was written by Justice William Rehnquist,

and he was like this big-time collector of political cartoons, loved political cartoons, including like the old-timey ones. Yeah. And he knew that sometimes they could be a little out there, and he was okay with that. He wrote that trying to determine whether a parody or satire was outrageous is subjective. Yeah. And it would be so dangerous to let every jury weigh in on something that's so subjective basically yeah you'd be punishing unpopular stuff

i mean it should it just be a fucking mess and that's a direct quote from it'd be a fucking mess yeah and it shouldn't be the basis for awarding damages so it was settled the highest court in the land had determined that larry flint and his dirty little magazine hadn't done anything illegal years passed and eventually jerry and lar Larry became friends. What? Yeah. You're, okay, you seem grossed out. Talk to me. I think it's weird. I just, I don't know if I'm grossed out. I think it's super weird.

They toured the country, stopping at college campuses to debate free speech. Because in my opinion, at the end of the day, what they both wanted was just money. Money, exactly. That's what that sounds like. And they discovered they kind of liked each other. Okay. So they had sex. No.

No. I don't think so. Can't be sure, but. Well, actually, we can. I mean, Larry Flint. Well, no, maybe oral sex. I'm sorry. This is taking a weird turn.

Sorry. Very rude of me. I realized that I was being ableist. I mean, he's perfectly capable of having sex but they didn't i'm sorry i'm sorry i'll stop i'll stop so you know they became friends and that just shocks the shit out of everyone so it's mentioned in every article ever but i think it's kind of dumb because i they're just i think they just they just want money i think I think they're more similar

than people are like, oh, they're total opposites. I don't know, man. I think they have a lot in common. And that's the story of Jerry Falwell and Larry Flint. That was excellent. I loved it. Did you love it? I did.

It was really fun to research. How's London doing? She's just like right here. Really? Yeah, I can feel her. She's like pressed on the outside. Oh, she kicking? Didn't like that?

Leave me alone, mom. Dad bogeyed me. Well, what do you think? Should we take some questions from our discord absolutely brandy what the hell is a discord discord is like a 90s style chat room it's super fun to get in it don't mention the predators like i did i know it sounds like a good idea to mention predators i don't think it was all you have to do is join our patreon at the five dollar level or higher which is all the levels yes absolutely and uh you get in there and uh when we yeah when

we record we ask for questions and then we answer a few of them it's a good time it sure is kristen you want to pick the questions sure hmm okay I kind of like this question. Lieutenant Cumberbun Bun asks, when you started out, did one of you dislike the way you sounded? If so, how did you get over it? Ooh. So I actually expected not to like the sound of my voice. It didn't bother me. I hate the way my laugh sounds.

Why? It's so fucking loud. Brandy, you sound like one of those asshole reviewers. I know. And then so that was automatically my reaction. Like, I sound like a fucking hyena. I can't help it. It's just how I laugh. And then we got all those reviews of how I laugh.

It was terrible. So I kind of like this question because I've heard from people who are like, I want to start a podcast or I want to do a thing, but I don't have the right voice right voice for it my god it never even occurred to me to worry about either of our voices yeah so just be confident stupid that's right that's right huh nat likes cats asks how are you supporting the black community amidst the race crisis. Gosh. Last week. This time has been so crazy. Like just. I mean. We're both obsessed with.

Watching all of the. Coverage and everything. So what we did. As a podcast. Yeah. Is we donated. To the Kansas City Community Bail Fund. So this is.

Something that's. Near and dear to us. Obviously we're very. Our hearts are very much here. In Kansas City. And the protests. Have been our hearts are very much here in Kansas City. And the protests have been happening at the plaza, which is right in the heart of our city, right where. Yeah, I'm hearing sirens every night. Yeah.

And so the Kansas City Community Bail Fund has committed to helping people who are arrested at those protests cover their bail. And so that's why we chose, we donated $500 to that fund. It was a small, you know, effort to help in some way. Well, we found out that $500 gets one person out. That covers one person's bail. So actually, they had actually just raised the bail to $1,000. Those fuckers. had actually just raised the bail to $1,000.

And enough people who mean something in this city fought back against it, and they reduced it back to $500. So, yeah, so we, I mean, it's not a lot, but we covered one person's bail. I feel, I struggle with, like, in moments like these, I struggle with, what do you do? Yeah. Because, you know, we're both white yeah and so I certainly don't feel like it's the time for me to be like attention everyone I've got an opinion I agree um but at the same time I feel like well we do have this platform yeah it feels it feels very to me imposterlike for us to be two very privileged white women to try and be like, hey, listen up.

This is what needs to happen. But what we can do is use our platform and continue to bring light to cases that people need to hear about. I mean, we've done several of them, and we will continue to do that. And, I mean, just off the top of your head. need to hear about i mean we've done several of them and we will continue to do that and i mean i think off the top of off the top of your head i was just about to say like i think of one of our earliest episodes which was lamonte mcintyre that was a horrible case of police corruption he went to prison for what was it 23 years 23 years it was insane yeah um i just you know again we were talking about like it's not our place, but I'm just going to say since we've got the podcast and the microphones in front of me.

Yeah. Police brutality is a widespread issue. Yeah. And it has to fucking stop. Yeah. We don't need to treat American citizens this way. No. That's insane. We don't need to treat human beings this way. I. That's that's insane. We don't need to treat

human beings. I'm sorry. Yes. Good God. Yeah. We do not need to treat human beings this way. Yeah. We do not need a military style presence. No. And again, it's just been it's been very disturbing because as a white person, my interactions with the police have been like nothing. If anything, they've been positive. And so it's never been Yeah, it's never been a thought in my mind that I need to be fearful of the police. And you know, and what a privilege that is no fucking what a privilege that is. And this just I mean, just brings so much light to that. And so I think to answer the question it's like well if you can give money give money yeah so we're doing that yeah um and yeah if you can

listen which I feel like we've been doing a lot of listening by trying to you know keep on top of of the news and yeah black lives matter absolutely oh brianna asks brandy what was the boy's name you had picked out do you want to share that yeah i think i shared it before on an episode but yeah the boys and brianna you know listen to an episode okay the boy name was bear um and my parents hated it so david and i loved it and my parents hated it. My mom was like, oh, can we come up with like, that's the nickname of what you named him? Barrett. And I was like, or

Bartholomew, Mom? No, I'm not doing it. And my dad was like, he also hated it. And he was like, what if London was the name if it was a girl or a boy? And I was like, no. He's like, well, I had an uncle, an Uncle Lonnie. And I was like no he's like well i had an uncle an uncle lonnie and i was like i'm not naming my kid in fairness bear pond does sound like a place

ozzy mandius king wants to know what's your favorite slash least favorite part of living in the Midwest? Favorite is that we're like, to me, is that like you're close to a lot of stuff. You can go any direction in the United States in a driving trip, essentially. Since we're smack dab here in the middle. Yeah. I do like that. I also like Midwest politeness. Can you tell the cops about it yeah exactly uh least favorite thing the weather

yeah our our weather i mean it's sometimes great and sometimes fucking terrible and then like one day it's great and the next day it's 100 degrees out of nowhere bottom line i hate it when people use that phrase like if you don't like the weather here wait five minutes yeah yeah you can use it here yes can't use that in other places that's right taking that away from you um adjusted for inflation wants to know now that the show is super famous and you have sponsors any thought to a new ten dollar patreon tier for ad free episodes i would recommend calling it the bob moss tier excellent suggestion i mean if people want yeah just tell us if that's what you want if you yeah

give us some feedback if you guys are interested in that we can make it happen tell me what you want what you really really want i'll tell you what i want what i really i want ad free i'm sorry i thrust my boobs out very aggressively. Yeah, it was very, very aggressive. Ooh, Melody wants to know, what's been your favorite part of pregnancy? Ooh, oh my gosh. I have loved being pregnant. I have had, in general, a very easy pregnancy. I've had no major complications.

Very minor vomiting, very minor aches and pains. Oh gosh, I'm going to get emotionales and pains. Oh, gosh. I'm going to get emotional. Do it. It's okay. It's something that I never thought that I would get to experience. I had kind of written this off as a part of my life. And so I have just loved every minute of being pregnant.

Yeah. Oh, Brandy. I'm so happy for you thank you I'm so excited to answer her question more directly her favorite part was obviously the butt swab

oh Argent wants to know are you going to do an LGBTQ plus themed episode for Pride Month? Oh, I love that idea. Yeah, why not? Yeah, sure. I like how we're looking at each other like, well, you're the boss.

Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. We've got the nuts. That's right. Oh, gosh. Nat likes cats is added again. She or he, I don't know, or them. I'm sure you recorded today's episode before the murder of George Floyd,

but I think it would be great if you two could issue a statement regarding how you think you can best support black voices. Okay, so we kind of talked about this. We did kind of talk about that already. But yes, for the record, we absolutely recorded the episode before that, which is why we included a trigger warning in the show notes and a note about that there. Yeah, we basically the reason we included a trigger warning, we don't normally do that.

I kind of feel like in general, we shouldn't just because we're categorized as true crime. We mark every episode is explicit. We've got show notes which kind of tell you basically what's going to happen. The reason we included it there is because the mention of police brutality kind of came out of nowhere yeah and i kind of felt like you know since we didn't go into any real modern day context yeah you know the world hadn't exploded yet yeah um we needed to just give people a heads up absolutely but as far as what we can do to best support black voices i would say um to be blunt shutting the fuck up and listening absolutely absolutely yeah yeah yeah best thing we can do is listen and give money i think you know what i think giving money yeah if you've got it is a good way to do it yeah okay she persisted asks what's the weirdest way you've got it, it's a good way to do it. Yeah. Okay. She Persisted asks, what's the weirdest way you've ever gotten or lost a job?

Hmm. Do you have an answer? I'm kind of wondering about whether to share it. It's kind of weird. Well, that was the question. Yeah. So in college, I got fired from a job. Yeah.

Which I'd never been fired before. But in retrospect, I was a little shit. So I had this job working for the writing center where I had to come in for like, it was like the sweetest gig ever. I worked for like, I don't know, six hours a week. It was like enough money to buy myself cocktails. Like, I loved it. So, you know, I just go in, you know, people would show up for writing help. I'd help them out. Sometimes they didn't. And I'd watch The Bachelor

online. You know, it was like the best. And then this new supervisor took over and wanted like us to do to answer some questions. I'm sure she didn't really want that much. But my attitude was like, I'm sure she didn't really want that much. But my attitude was like, you know, you can't ask me to work when I'm off the clock. It probably would have taken me 10 minutes. So I just didn't do it. And then I was stunned when I was fired via email. Stunned! And then, I'm sorry, this gets weirder.

Oh, this gets weirder than that? Yeah. So that writing center, that was small, but it was basically my only skill is like in terms of like, as far as work study jobs at a college where you could make some decent money. It was like, well, I need a job in this writing center where I was just recently fired. So I obviously applied for this even more sweet gig where I was like assigned to a class and I was like their personal writing helper where they could come to me at any time for writing help. Now, the key is no one comes to you for help for the entire semester, except at the very last minute. Then you get a bunch of people and you do what you can.

But for the most part, you get paid this very nice size stipend for the entire semester for like maybe one or two nights of work it was a sweet gig i wanted it obviously was rejected for the job but here's the thing simmons university is a very small college and so no one else wanted it well here's the thing i was like i don't think i think maybe they had some applicants but like the director was complaining to another person who was in a similar position was just like, man, we just didn't get we've got to get someone in this position. We just don't have anybody. And she was like, well, I could recommend someone. And the director was like, oh, my God. Yes.

Who? And she goes, Kristen Pitts. And the director was like, oh, fuck. But I ended up getting that job because they had no other choice. And it was wonderful. It was so much better than that other job where I got fired. I learned no lessons. Yeah.

I was a dick. I got fired a lot from a summer job for my dad. Oh. Yeah, every summer when I was a kid, I worked for my dad. And I got fired multiple times every summer. And then weirdest way I've gotten a job, I guess kind of the job I have now at the salon. So my sister, Kim, has owned the teen salon. OK, it is kind of a weird thing how this happened.

For 15 years, has had has owned the tan salon. Okay, it is kind of a weird thing how this happened. It is kind of a weird thing for 15 years. Right. Like, has had a great, successful business. Yeah. And we had always, like, talked, like, hypothetically, one day, wouldn't it be interesting? Like, wouldn't it be fun if we added a hair salon? Well, then, in 2015, Kansas passed a law that reduced our tanning clients by like 25%. Yeah, yeah.

It was something, it was about teenagers. Teenagers, yeah. Previously, there'd been no regulations about any, but age restrictions on tanning and they put in an age restriction. And so it wiped out our whole like high school clientele. Prom season was done. And so at that time, they had to make a decision

about where do we move forward with the business? How do we offset that? And I had left my corporate job. Right. And so it was like the perfect timing. And we decided to take out two tanning beds and put in a hair salon. And it has been amazing. Okay.

I think we should both answer this question. Okay. So that it's on the record. Okay. Anna Faye wants to know, what date do you think London is going to be born? Will she hold on and be the third June 12th baby on the pod? Okay, I think we both need to make predictions. Okay.

Okay, so your due date is June 26th. It's June 26th. Okay. I would fucking love it if she was born on my birthday. I think that'd be amazing. That would be so cool. However, I also want her to be cooking away in there as long as possible. My actual prediction is June 21st.

Father's Day. Father's Day. Oh. I told David, like, when we first found out I was pregnant, that I was getting him a baby for Father's Day. Oh, that'd be so cool. I mean, so I talked about this with my sister. I was like, okay, Kyla, you know, she's got two kids.

I'm like, how do you know when a woman's about to blow? Yeah. And because I was like, I swear to you, Brandy is any minute. And Kyla's just like, well, I mean, the thing is like. You can be dilated to that one for a long time. Yeah. She said exactly what you said, which is that, like, you can look any way and you just never know when it's going to happen. Yeah.

So I'm very disappointed. I think it's going to be the 19th. Okay. Friday. Friday the 19th. Friday the 19th. Waiting for you, London. Okay. We've got another.

Nat Likes Cats is all over this. I swear there are more people in the Discord. They say, I know this is about questions for Kristen and Brandy, who we all love very much, but maybe we could get a little momentum around pushing for more stories featuring black voices and activists. Maybe we could look into black lawyers or civil rights cases. There are Brandy cases and Kristen cases in the racial justice sphere, I promise you. This all comes from a place of love. I don't know if we should answer a third question from one person. We've never

really done that before. But I will say, you know, certainly we're open to doing more. I would say if you're wanting to listen to some like right off the bat, we've got Emmett Till. We've got Scottsboro Boys. We've got Lamonte McIntyre, as I already mentioned. Yeah. We've got Centoya Brown. Centoya Brown. Yeah.

We've got. Oh, gosh, I did a couple of the fugitives. Anthony Burns, fugitive slave. We've got shoot. Oh, Celia is the slave trial. Yeah. Got a couple others. These are just like what's off the toplave Trial. Oh, yeah. Got a couple others. These are just like what's... Off the top of our head.

Oh, and then the fruitcake case we just did, the woman who realized that... Uncovered the whole thing. Was. The hero of the story. Yeah. Was an African-American woman. So, you know, if you want some right now, go check those out. Check those ones out.

But sure. But of course, yeah, please send us suggestions. We are absolutely open to covering any and all of those. Okay, this isn't a question. course, yeah, please send us suggestions. We are absolutely open to covering any and all of those. Okay, this isn't a question. Well, no, it is a question. Mandy M wants to know, do you guys remember the Bop It toy? I love that thing. Next bonus video, you guys should take turns doing Bop It. Do you remember the Bop It? Twist it, pull it, flick it. No, we don't. Never heard of it. No, why? Oh, I thought the Bop It was so cool. Yeah.

It's a hell of a workout. Yeah. Allie has one. Oh, does she? Yeah, she has everything. But I had a Bop It too. Oh, okay. So I'm bragging to you.

Did you have a Bop It? No. In your face. In your face. Cat in the Clouds wants to know, if you guys had to go on the run and make fake identities, what kind of characters would you make for your undercover selves? This is a good question.

See, I'm at a real disadvantage here. Why? Because I'm only good at like one or two things. Yeah? Yeah. And I feel like in order to, don't make that face at me. I feel like you're good at lots of things. So I'm wondering what direction you're going there.

That's simply not true. I feel like, you know, in order to like invent a whole backstory, you have to like have a broad enough knowledge of different things and skills that you can believe. You know, what am I going to say? Yeah. I think I would be, yeah, like a former Jeopardy contestant. You know, your identity is supposed to be boring so people don't ask a lot of questions. Yeah, I'm the lady that took down Ken Jennings.

Please don't Google me and don't look for any proof of this. And I am a candlestick maker. Don't ask questions about how to do that. I don't think people would. It sounds kind of boring. I don't think they would either. There you go. It's pretty boring, yeah.

Yeah, if I... You gotta find a specialty that's boring enough that no one wants to ask. Accountant. Oh, yeah. No, then... Speaking of accountant!

What? Oh my gosh! How have I waited this long? What? What? Your con artist accountant from the... Fruitcake episode?

No, from the Tylenol murder case. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Steve knew him! No! What? Yes! Tell us everything! Steve was an auditor for the IRS, and that guy represented clients that were being audited,

and so he would come into the office, and because he was a huge sketchball, like, all of his clients were being audited! No! Yes! So he was super weird sketchball, like all of his clients were being audited. No. Yes. So he was super weird. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That is nuts. Yeah. Okay, Steve is obviously a more modest person than I. Because if I had a connection, I'd be like, let me tell you a story about me. Right. Tangentially. Yeah. About the Chicago Tylenol murders. That is nuts. Yeah. Yeah. My mom

texted me that today and I was like, how, why are you holding out on this information? And my mom remembers the case really well. Cause it was my mom and Steve that recommended the case. And my mom remembers it so well because she was working at a drugstore at the time that it went on that would be terrifying yes and so yeah like watching all of that unfold in a drugstore setting and i found this out my mom was the photo tech at the drugstore you're just now realizing no idea that was your that's what i did at walgreens that was your walgreens career for many years two years i worked there for four years. I was a photo tech for two years. I know.

That's why I said two years. Don't try to come at me with your corrections. I said it all perfectly. Oh, I've got to do this one. What? Because this just proves that this person has listened to every episode of this podcast very thoroughly. Yes.

Inamo? I don't know if that's how you pronounce it I'm so sorry if it's not Kristen are your first words to Brandy after she has baby London going to be I like your kid this is a deep cut if there has ever been a deep cut we're gonna have to explain that no one's gonna know I can't believe that she thought of that that's hilarious we told i told a story i don't even know on what episode a million episodes ago about one year when kristen and i went trick-or-treating when we were kids and kristen was trying to be a very polite trick-or-treater and she was giving everybody a compliment as they were giving us candy and like she was running out of compliments. I tried to keep them original.

Every compliment I wanted to be original. But you know, what can you say to someone you just met? And at one house she told the lady that she liked her kid. I mean, you know. Okay, it is creepy and weird. My heart was in the right place. My intentions were good. Liridesa asks, how hard would it be to convince either one of you to shave your heads?

Not a fucking chance. You could never convince me to do it. Never? Never. Never? Never. I do not have the face for it. Five million dollars. There's five million dollars if you shave your head. All right. I do not have the face for it. $5 million.

There's $5 million if you shave your head. All right. $2 million. Brandy! I guess I could buy a nice wig. Can I buy a wig? Sure, you can buy a wig, but it's not going to look right. It's not.

You're exactly right. $2 million. You are looking at this from a very different perspective. I believe it's about a hairstylist who will then be bald. Yeah, but then you've got two million dollars that you can roll around in like Scrooge McDuck. Maybe. The question was not money based. I know.

It was could you convince me? So I'm convincing you with money. What else would it take? I don't know. Lifetime supply of... No. Wait, nothing? No lifetime supply of anything?

No. Wow. You're a tough cookie. This is not the face for a shay tech. It's so round. You guys, she just framed her face with her hand. This is not the face. It's not. This face requires hair.

What are you going to do if you become a little old lady and it starts to, like, thin out? Oh, have a nice short do. Okay. Okay. I'm going to have a short do. Yeah, just nice little pixie. Not no do. Yeah.

What about you? Um. Oh, I would like to report a crime. Tell the listeners what you just did to me. Oh, you rude, rude woman. I only did it because you're so weird about your ears. You have perfectly normal ears. Oh, because I'm self-conscious? I stuck my ears out.

Okay, make some offerings. Make some offerings. I offered you stuff. $5,000. No. Not even close. No. A year's supply of um nerd ropes. No i could just buy my own nerd ropes right now

how big a line item in my budget do you think nerd ropes are what kind of life do you think um your mortgage is paid off oh Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Oh, shave it all, baby. Shave it all. Yep. Oh, and Norman would be so grateful. Man, he'd be refilling my water bottle every time. Rubbing that bald head.

I love you so much. I love you, Bob. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Nerd ropes. Well, on that note, I think we should move on to some Supreme Court inductions. You're absolutely right. Why don't you tell the people how to get into the Supreme Court?

You don't have it up yet, do you? No, I do not. Surprise, surprise. Neither do I. Okay, gang. Here's how you get into the Supreme Court. You don't have it up yet, do you? No, I do not. Surprise, surprise. Neither do I. Okay, gang. Here's how you get into the Supreme Court. You join our Patreon at the $7 level. And this week, we

are continuing with Naming Names and your favorite movies. Naming Names? I know. That's a weird way to say it. It sounds like we're, you know, she did the crime. And she'll do the time. What episode is this?

125. Do you know what day it is, ma'am? I'm like, are you here? I don't know why I looked at my watch. Like, that was going to tell me what episode we were on. It's a fun thing how, like, most watches now, like, they tell you the time, they tell you the day, and they tell you what episode Let's Go to Court is on. Our podcast is huge, Brandi. I've got to stick back with how I have my Apple Watch.

What do you want to do this week, Kristen? You fucked me last week. I did fuck you real good, didn't I? You know what? I'll let you choose. What do you want to do? I'll do names. It's fine.

Okay. Sarah Evelyn Tronson. Anything by Janet Ivanovich. Deb Albertson. The Girl with the Silver Eyes. Rachel Vanikout. The Martian by Andy Weir. Megan Figueroa.

The Great Gatsby. She put an exclamation point. Paola Diabelli. Beyond Good and Evil. Oh no. By Friedrich Nisch. Nietzsche. Nietzsche, sorry.

Sorry. Rachel Irvin. A Curious Beginning. Ash Kat. The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin. Le Guin. Le Guin. Le Guin.

Fallon Marie Gannon. The Crow Girl by Eric Axel Sund. Erin MacDonald. Untamed by Glennon Doyle. Jess GM from the UK. Is that your full name? Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte.

Hmm, this is interesting because this is not how I would pronounce this Stacy's last name. She says it's Stacy Gilyot. Mm-hmm. We went to high school

with a guy with this last name and he spelled exactly like that and he pronounced it Gio. Ooh. Ooh. Oh, yeah. a guy with this last name and he spelled exactly like that and he pronounced it guillo oh yeah i do remember him he was hot we should probably bleep his name sorry stacy stacy gilliatt oh gosh everyone who goes to school with us is gonna know that Sorry, Stacey. Stacey Gilead. Oh, gosh.

Everyone who goes to school with us is going to know that. Well, I mean, everyone knows he was hot. Exactly. I don't think we've got to bleep anything. I think it's fine. Okay, breaking news. Breaking news. It was hot in high school.

The Stephanie Plum Series by Janet Ivanovich. Amy Barnes. My Sweet Audrina by V.C. Andrews. V.C. Andrews, man. Ooh. Yeah? Those V.C. Andrews books. Emily Dick.

Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte. Welcome to the Supreme Court! God, I had a rough time there. I lost confidence several times. Got distracted by a hot guy from high school. Oh my gosh, guys. Thank you so much for all of your support. We appreciate it so much.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook twitter instagram reddit patreon please subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to apple podcasts leave us a rating leave us a review and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics podcasts fuck i'm so sorry i distracted. I was pulling up my outro. Brandy, we're on episode 125, which you can see on your watch, clearly. Podcast adjourned.

And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from FamousTrials.com, a very gross clip on YouTube, Cornell Law School, and Wikipedia. And I got my info from an episode of Snapped and a blog called The Crime Scene by Kathy Baird. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.