Let's Go To Court! - 126: Police Officer Daniel Holtzclaw & a Shocking Medical Diagnosis

Episode Date: June 17, 2020

Buckle up. This first story is awful.  Daniel Holtzclaw had been an officer with the Oklahoma City Police Department for a few years when a woman came forward with an accusation. Her name was Jannie Ligons. She told officers that she’d been stopped by a police officer late at night, as she was coming home from bingo. He’d sexually assaulted her. Jannie was traumatized, but she remembered enough details to give detectives key information. They zeroed in on Daniel Holtzclaw. But as they dug into his past, they grew increasingly disturbed. It appeared Daniel had a pattern of targeting vulnerable black women, and in at least one case, a vulnerable black girl. Jannie Ligons’ bravery got this investigation moving forward, but she wasn’t the first woman to alert police to Daniel’s modus operandi. She was just the first to be taken seriously. Then Brandi tells us the story of Richard Mason, a multi-millionaire who appeared to have it all. He had three children. He’d co-founded a successful business. But his health was failing him. Finally, when he was in his mid-50s, doctors gave him upsetting news. He had cystic fibrosis. That part wasn’t a complete surprise. Cystic fibrosis ran in his family. But what did surprise him was the revelation that he was most likely infertile, and always had been. Richard was stunned. If he was infertile, how had he fathered three children?  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “A guilty verdict for Daniel Holtzclaw,” by Matt Ford for The Atlantic “The 13 women who accused a cop of sexual assault, in their own words,” by Jessica Testa for Buzzfeed The episode of 20/20 “What the Dash Cam Never Saw” The interrogation video, on YouTube “Former OKC police officer’s attorney offers explanation for evidence in rape trial,” by Kyle Schwab for the Oklahoman “Closing arguments to begin for former Oklahoma City police officer accused of rape, sexual assault,” by Kyle Schwab for the Oklahoman “Jury deliberating in trial of former Oklahoma City police officer,” for kfor.com “Former Oklahoma City cop Daniel Holtzclaw sentenced to 263 years on rape charges,” by Andrea Cavallier, for the Associated Press “Oklahoma court denies appeal of ex-police officer,” by Tim Willert for The Oklahoman “Daniel Holtzclaw” entry on wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Millionaire Reveals Moment a Doctor Told Him He Couldn’t Be the Father of Three Adored Boys” by Nick Craven, The Daily Mail “Father learnt that three sons from 20-year-marriage were not his after doctor told him he was infertile” by Jack Hardy, The Telegraph “Multi-millionaire who found out sons weren't his reveals why he went public” by Amber Hicks, The Mirror “Richard Mason paternity row: Son breaks silence to claim millionaire father was 'very manipulative’” by Phoebe Southworth, The Telegraph

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August 17th. Get your tickets now at kingsplate.com. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court.

On this episode, I'll talk about police officer Daniel Holtzclaw. And I'll be talking about a shocking medical diagnosis. Hey, Brandy. Hey. How's it going? Oh, I'm great. Are you? Yeah, I've got a question for you, though. What's worse than hearing about Daniel Holtzclaw?

Hearing about him for the second fucking time. Why? Whatever could you mean? clock i'm hearing about him for the second fucking time why whatever could you mean oh this is episode 126 take two electric boogaloo yeah okay guys here's here's the truth my case is terrible this week it was horrible fucking we hated it we hated it yeah we recorded it on our usual time yeah um and we just like, like, we white-knuckled through the thing. We did. And then when we were done, we were like, oh, my gosh, thank God that's over. That was terrible.

Turns out Brandy's side was not recording, so it was just me talking about Daniel Holtzclaw to myself. It was terrible. So here we are. It's an After Dark episode. And then we're... Hit it again. are you okay i'm fine you're you're really not looking forward to it i'm so not yeah it's okay though we're here it's fine it's great and i'd love to hear about this. Hey, how do we plug ourselves? I mean, we... Tampons?

Oh, God! I don't know! What kind of weird question was that? Plug? You know, give ourselves a plug? Like a Patreon plug? My God, what? That was horrifying!

That wasn't even a joke, was it? You thought I was saying something weird. Anyway, guys, if you can't get enough of this, you know, who could blame you? We're on Patreon. At the $5 level, you get access to a monthly bonus episode. You get into the Discord where you can chat with us,

hear precious gems like that one. And then at the $7 level, you get all that plus a monthly bonus video you get a sticker you can put it wherever you want where the sun don't shine like what well who are we to judge it's their sticker sticker where the sun don't shine and you get inducted on this very podcast brand Brandi, what's wrong with you? Ankle swelling back up over here. Okay, guys, Brandi is about to have this baby any second.

For real. I iced this ankle earlier today because it got very large and in charge. Now I'm hot. So it's getting big again i so that was that's kind of been the other crazy thing about our first take being terrible is like we scheduled this for like a sunday night like okay well let's retake it knowing full well that you might go into labor any minute any minute what if you faked going into labor so i didn't have to hear about daniel holtzclaw again you guys if you don't know who

daniel holtzclaw is um yeah here's how bad daniel holtzclaw is okay when you text me dibs on this case i said have fun with that douche canoe and then i immediately changed cases that i was doing because i was going to do a dark murder and i was like nope people can't handle it no too much too much and okay the other funny thing is in our first take i drug my heels for 14 minutes before i got started we're we're tracking in about five minutes right, so I think I'm doing a lot better this time. It's a band-aid. We're going to rip it off. Should we talk about who's here with us tonight? Who's here with us? Who's this strange man?

Who's that hottie over there? You want to say hi, David? Hi, David. Stop it. David is sitting in with us tonight. We couldn't risk having to do this a third time. He's listening to make sure everything goes good. Thanks for being here, David.

You're very welcome. Are you actually paying attention or are you playing a game on your phone? Yes. Who could blame him for being like, we told him what Daniel Holtzclaw has done. And he was like, oh, great. Great. Let me sit and listen to that. sorry forward to it okay let's get right into business jump on in okay first off a big thank you to the police who inspired me to do this case oh christian

that was sarcasm because the police have been awful. Hey, do you have a cocktail over there? No, I don't. Why not? Were you trying to be nice to me? Yeah. Oh, you could have one. I feel like if anything warrants a cocktail, it's this case.

Oh, gosh. Then I'll just cry. Also, Norm had his little, you know, bro party yesterday, and I had some drinks. I've hit my quota. So, first of all, big shout outs to Jessica Testa for her BuzzFeed article. I'm not going to read you the whole title just because it gives some stuff away. Also, very helpful, the 2020 episode, What the Dash Cam Never Saw. Those clever titles at 2020 also um someone uploaded the entire interrogation video to youtube big thank you for that okay here we go so just a big

warning to everyone right off the top even though this is your second time hearing. But, you know, here we go. This story is awful. It's very graphic. It's about an Oklahoma City police officer who used his position as a police officer to rape and terrorize vulnerable black women. Excellent. Yeah. Tell me more. I know. He got away with this God knows how many times before he was finally held accountable.

Here we go. Daniel Holtzclaw grew up in Enid, Oklahoma, which is a booming metropolis of about 50,000 people. Yes, giant city. Pretty big city. Roughly 70 miles north of Oklahoma City. This part is very important, so I want you to really pay attention, okay? In high school, he excelled in football, Brandy. Excellent.

Yes. Giving him a little bit of the Brock Turner treatment here, I see. Okay, I have to tell you something. So, on Wednesday, when we recorded this, I started talking about his football stuff. And you were like, ew, what are you doing? Stop talking about that. You're giving him the Brock Turner treatment. I had it planned to go back to it.

And I was like, no, no, no, just stick with me. Yeah. I had planned to say something at the end. Then I forgot to say it. And so, like, this whole time until we realized that the audio was fucked, I was like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. There's nothing we can do. Yeah. You know?

But I just, well, I'll save it. Well, no, I can't save it. Can't risk it, Kristen. Yeah, okay. After this whole thing went down, there was this very long profile of Daniel Holtzclaw in like some SB Nation. I assume it's a sports thing. Obviously, I'm not. That's a that's a sports thing.

Yes. Don't give me that face. So the article that was written was like super creepy, super sympathetic to him about how like, oh, he didn't make it into the NFL. And so, you know, he wasn't racist or into the nfl and so you know he wasn't racist or anything he just blah blah blah um they ended up retracting the article and they no longer post investigative articles anymore so anyway um yeah glad i'm getting that out there so he played football in high school and 2020 called him a football hero, which is not a thing. I don't think that's a thing.

No. Well, I mean, it is a thing. He's in Oklahoma. He earned the nickname The Claw. He was a linebacker, Brandy. Which means what, Kristen? Means that he did an excellent job backing the line. And you need that because you got to make sure your lines are okay.

Then he went to college at Eastern Michigan University, and he became a linebacker on their football team. And he was named an All-American. Which means what? best rapist i don't know what does that mean it's like a you know like the best of the best in america uh for sports for sports for football yeah specifically these are the things i don't know okay uh but you know college isn't just about sports, Brandy. Yes. While he was at Eastern Michigan, he also studied criminal justice.

Went to all the semesters. I don't mean to rub it in. Yes. Because he loved justice. Then in 2010, he graduated college and he was like, I'm ready for the NFL. Put me in, coach. And the NFL was like, no thanks. No thanks. Got plenty of rapists. Herb Piss.

What was he to do? I know you're feeling really sorry for him right now. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. Oh, but he didn't make it into the NFL. Not upset at all. He was an all-American douche. Yeah. Well, he had his degree in criminal justice, and his dad had been a lieutenant with the Enid Police Department, and Daniel was very interested in protecting and serving his community. So he joined the Oklahoma City Police Department, and he became a patrolman. I'm sorry, your eyes.

It's like the life is being drained out of you. Sucked it out of me, Kristen. I'm sorry. He became a patrolman. And he did bodybuilding in his spare time. Same. I'm currently working on an intense bodybuilding program. Oh, God.

Get it? Do you get it? Guys, do you get it? Do you get it? Because she's got a baby. Because I'm building a baby. David doesn't get it. I don't get it. Yeah.

He's going to, two hours from now, he's going to crack up. Oh, I get it now. Years went by. years went by then on june 18th 2014 at 2 a.m a 57 year old grandmother and daycare owner named janie liggins was driving home from playing bingo with her friends okay so i think it's the wikipedia entry says that janie was passing through an impoverished area of town i don't know that area well, but you know, that's what they say. So she's passing through this area. And so was Daniel Holtzclaw. Daniel had just gotten off his shift, but he was still driving his cop car and

still in uniform. There Janie was driving down the road. It's pitch black out when all of a sudden this cop car throws its lights on. So she pulls over and this cop comes up and he said, I pulled you over because you were swerving. And she said, no, I wasn't swerving. And he was like, what do you have in your cup there? That's alcohol. And she was like, no, sir, that's Kool-Aid. And so he kind of like harasses her about this. And at some point she's like, look, you can taste it if you want. It's Kool-Aid. At that point, he told her to get out of the car. And so she did. He took her to his patrol car and he's like, why are you nervous? He took her to his patrol car, and he's like, why are you nervous?

And she said, I'm not. He patted her down all over and asked if she had anything illegal on her. She said, no, sir. He said, you better let me know. If you do, I'm going to take you to jail. But she didn't have anything on her. She was truly just like a grandma leaving a bingo game yeah he ordered her to sit in the back of the police car and he searched her car again the dude didn't find anything because there was nothing nothing to find yeah he came back to the patrol car

opened the back door and said how do i know you don't have anything in your bra and then he forced her to expose himself to him while he touched himself janie was terrified she was certain that she was going to die they were alone at night he was a police officer and she was a black woman. All she could think was, oh, my God, he's going to kill me. She could not stop staring at his gun. Then he unzipped his pants and was like, come on. I know.

So, of course, by this point, she is so scared. She said, no, sir, you're not supposed to do this. You're not supposed to do this, sir. She said, don't make me do this. No, sir, don't make me do this. You're going to shoot me. That's terrible. Because, you know, she legitimately thought that he was going to shoot her. Absolutely.

I think the other thing that makes me sad, and we didn't talk about this this week, is like the sirs. Like she is being as polite as possible because she has to be. Yeah. She's doing anything she can to survive. So Janie was certain that she was about to be murdered. So she said it again. Sir, please don't make me do this. Don't make me do this.

You're going to shoot me. And he said i'm not gonna shoot you i promise and she said you promise and then he laughed at her and he of course sexually assaulted her of course when it was over she thought for certain that he would shoot her in the back as she walked to her car. How terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly how you think, like, well, this is the end for me.

This is it, yeah. I'm going to be sexually assaulted, and this guy's going to shoot me, and he's going to get away with everything because he's a police officer. She wasn't sure what to do or say. The only thing she could think to say in that moment was, thank you, sir. Thank you, sir, for not taking me to jail. I hate that so much.

Why? Because she's just been sexually assaulted. She has feared for her life. She's been put through something horrible. And she, I'm sure, legitimately is thankful to be leaving with her life yeah yeah how awful how fucking terrible but at that point she's just grateful to be alive yeah and i'm sure saying what you know whatever you gotta say to get out of there alive you say it yes so then she gets into her car, drives off, and he followed her for a while. Then he sped off.

In an interview, Janie later said, He let me live to tell the story. Big, big mistake. Janie was sobbing. She drove to her daughter's house and woke her up and immediately told her daughter what happened. And her daughter flipped out as you would. So she's like, this is not OK. She got her kids up.

She got her boyfriend up. They all got dressed and they piled into her car and drove to the Spring Lake Police Division. But no one was there. The lights were all off. They started to drive off. But then they spotted two cop cars parked next to each other. Is it after hours at the police station? Well, all crimes stop at about 9 p.m., Brandi. We all know that.

So it looked like the officers were talking. So they turned around and went back to those officers, and Janie told the officers what had happened to her. And they were like, holy shit. Yeah. They called their captain and the captain came out and took down a report. That afternoon, Officer Dipshit, as I like to call him, was reporting for duty. He was scheduled to work the 4 p.m. to 2 a.m. shift. But two detectives, Kim Davis and Rocky Gregory, a.k.a. Benson and Stabler, except not really, and you'll see why later, of the sex crime unit were like, Hey, hey, Daniel, why don't you come chat with us?

Brandy, because there is a God in heaven, the entire interrogation tape, including the four minutes before he waives his Miranda rights, is available on YouTube. So you're telling me that last week, Sweet Baby Jesus delivered a case directly to my life. That's right. And this week, the Sweet Baby Jesus gave you this interrogation video. Clearly, Jesus is very busy working on this podcast which maybe jesus we appreciate the help but if you could also help another world affairs oh my goodness please holy shit okay if i may offer a compliment to detective rocky gregory he did an excellent job starting off super cash oh good he was like welcome to our domain what's your name again you got a piss or anything

it's super weird it's super weird and daniel's like oh i can hold it that's my impression you guys missed out on a great impression. It's just shoulders back and like arms kind of so big you can't really put them at your sides. And also really dumb and rapey. So you get the vibe. You get the vibe. I did get a very rapey vibe from you there. Thank you.

So Daniel, you know, he's like, I can hold it. And he like looks around this little room remember he's huge he's this bodybuilder former nfl hopeful but you know the nfl said no thanks and you know that turned him into a serial rapist according to sb nation so he's huge he has one of those necks that is somehow the exact it's just. It's just like neck head. That's exactly right. It goes straight to the ears. Yeah.

He looks like he was poured into his uniform. And he looks at this little chair. And he looks at it like he's never seen a chair before. He's not totally sure how to work it. And the detective's like, take a seat, man. And so he does. Detective Kim Davisis also super cash she pops in the room she's like teehee no chair for me and then she practically like skips out

of the room to get herself a chair and she talks all about how she had back surgery about a year ago and she just has that half to the right kind of you know? You need that lumbar support. Gotta have the lumbar. At this point, your boy Daniel. Don't call him my boy Daniel. Nobody's boy Daniel. Thank you. Admits to being a little embarrassed by this whole thing. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. Brandy. Brandy. He's, like, totally innocent. This is just crazy. And, like, he shows up to work and all of a sudden he's being questioned. People are going to start whispering. Imagine.

And Kim's like, oh, there are rumors floating around. But, you know, once the two of us talk, it'll put those rumors to rest. You okay? I thought I had to sneeze, but I didn't. Why didn't you do your trick? Your nose trick? I don't want to have to. I'm not going to sneeze if I don't have to sneeze.

Wait, that makes you sneeze? Yeah. That will make me sneeze. Do it. Brandy is currently holding the bridge of her nose. I can't do it. Exactly. I can't do it right now.

Yeah, you can't ever do it. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. David, see me do it. I can't do it. Exactly. I can't do it right now. Yeah. You can't ever do it. Uh huh. Uh huh. David, see me do it. I can confirm. David, for real? For real. Are you sure she doesn't just like have to sneeze and then she puts her hand up on the bridge of her nose and she's like, oh, I made myself do it.

That I can neither confirm nor deny. All right. Whose side are you on? I'm a mutual party. I'm Puerto Rican. Oh, really? Puerto Rican. No, he said Puerto Rico.

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. Everyone pause. Puerto Rican, I was like, no, you're not. And I'm sorry, you're impartial? Who's growing your baby right now? Brandi, I've got devastating news. We wanted you to find out this way on the podcast. After listening to this case twice

holy shit you know it's all about just making entertaining podcasts and we figured that this would be very dramatic yeah sure would be okay so like, oh, there are rumors floating around. But, you know, once the two of us talk, it'll put those rumors to rest. And so she Mirandizes him. And she's like, oh, my gosh, look at that. You're left-handed. Look at that. And because what?

Like he's a circus freak? No, just like, oh, my gosh. Isn't that great? Me too. Oh, okay. Just super cash because, you know, she's... She's trying to connect with him. No, I don't think so. What do you think she's doing?

I think she's trying to give the impression that she's super stupid. Oh, okay. I mean, that's just my opinion. I think she's trying to give off the impression that she is super stupid. She's not totally informed. They asked him, remind me of your name again. They knew his name. Yeah.

But they're trying to give him the impression that like, we don't really know what what's going on and so it would almost be more suspicious if you lawyered up right now blah blah okay it sounds like i'm giving a lot of compliments to these two i want to pause and say um they do a great job in this interrogation i think and they do a great job with janie's like from the moment she reports i, I think it goes great. But, not fun fact, this was not the first report on Daniel Holtzclaw. But it was the first one that appears to have been investigated. So that sucks. Yes.

Anyway, here we go. So he waves his Miranda rights. Yeah. And the whole time Kim's like, so you write left handed, but you shoot right handed. Me too. And then Rocky waltz in and he's like, I masturbate right handed. And Kim's like, I think I do that left handed. What? You know how it is. Sometimes you just got to share that information. I guess. By this point, all Daniel knows is that someone made a complaint about an officer. Okay.

This person didn't know the officer's name, didn't seem to know much at all. But they were complaining about something that happened last night. So Daniel admitted that he had pulled someone over last night after he got off duty and that he hadn't called it in. You know, it's just one of those things. He'd just gotten off work and he saw someone swerving and he had to intervene, Brandy. Yep. You know how like when you get done with a full day of doing hair and then you go home and do more hair just for the fun of it you see someone walking around

with a terrible haircut you're like stop fix that sir that is a hair emergency he pulled the woman over oh my god we have to pay you for the haircut you gave stop yes yes i'm not concerned about it, Kristen. I'm very concerned. You guys, should we pause? Yes, pause. Okay. Like, two weeks ago, you gave Norman a haircut.

Norman didn't pay you anything. I do not care. I care. I care. She whipped the poor young boy the other night when she found out that he hadn't paid me for it. It came to me like a vision. I was out pulling weeds. And all of a sudden, it dawned on me, Norman never paid Brandy for that haircut.

And I was like, my God. And I talked to him about it. And I talked to you about it and I talked to you about it. And you were like trying to cover for him. I could tell. Seriously, I thought about how to respond. I was like, how can I best respond to this? She won't get pissed at Norman.

And I can express how much I do not care. Brandy. Brandy. Anyway, continuing. So, you know, Daniel just did the classic thing that we've all done. He gets off work and continues to work. Yeah. Hey, the law never sleeps, Christian.

Yeah, I'm getting that vibe from some people. So he pulled the woman over and she was a black female, yeah. She didn't have a valid driver's license, and she had a bunch of hydrocodone in her purse. Oh, did she? Yeah, but it was prescribed to her. But, you know, still, that's kind of, you know, people take that, and they take some alcohol, and it's just a mess. They take some alcohol? Yeah.

In pill form. That's the new way of doing alcohol. But, you know, it looked like maybe she'd been drinking, but she didn't seem to be over the legal limit. So, you know, after a while, things seemed fine. So he let her go. Because, you know, a while things seemed fine so he let her go because you know he he really wanted to get home yeah yeah okay so kim pressed him but she stayed casual she kind of had this vibe of like help me help you buddy right kim was like so did she show you her titties did you see some titties and he's like no i i checked her waistband for weapons but that was it and kim's like well she was kind of old maybe your titties were kind

of saggy did you see the bottom of them oh god yeah it gets weird and he said no he said at most all he saw was a fat roll which fuck off yeah yeah yeah the detectives asked if he ever took his penis out and he said no they asked him all about what kind of supplements he takes which i don't understand why they were so interested in that but they talked a lot about supplements does he use steroids blah blah did they ask him if his package had decreased in size from his steroid use? I believe he let them know that that had not happened. Good, he just offered that information up. You know how it is. They asked him if he manscapes, which is a word that I hate.

You know what's worse? What? What? Mansillion. That's not a thing it is no 100 a thing no no brandy it's 100 a thing no it's just a brazilian it's a manzillion no yeah we don't we don't brazilian wax we don't need these different words like you can just say groom in your pubes and it can be. Groom in your pubes. It can be all encompassing. Yeah. That's not very descriptive.

We don't need gendered terms. I mean, Brazilian, that's very description. Description. Super descriptive. Yes. Manzillion, more descriptive. No, it just means like you've got a dick in the way. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You immediately know the situation. Yeah, but if a dude comes up to you and he's like, I got a Brazilian, you would know what the situation was. All right. Yeah. I rest my case. Thank you very much. They asked him how often he has sex, and he said at least once a day. At least once a day at least once a day why you do it more

i know they were they were kind of stunned by that too and he's like uh and then they they're kind of like oh well maybe because of your age but i mean how old is he? He's like 27. It's pretty frequent. I, I, yeah, that's, that might be a compulsion. I'm no doctor.

He sounds like a sex addict to me. I mean, I'm no botanist, but they took a DNA sample and they kept telling him that there were, had been cameras

all over the place, surveillance cameras all over the place that night. so there was just a ton of footage of him and he should just be honest okay but he's a cop he knows that's not true yeah i mean anyone should know that's not true yeah because it's like okay then why are you why are you asking me if you have footage of it yeah so obviously he didn't really offer anything up daniel maintained that he'd done a totally normal stop he'd seen someone swerving he pulled her over and okay yeah yeah she was upset and yeah she did start crying um yeah you know she did ask if he was gonna shoot her which was pretty weird but you know oh well yeah just completely unprompted well he didn't want to lock her up brandy you know because

just because she didn't have a valid driver's license so he let her go dunzo that's the end of the story okay okay also the cops did this kind of gross thing not kind of super gross thing in the interrogation where they're like you know was this a consensual thing did she just want some blah blah blah and you know the most charitable view is that they're just trying to get him to own up to something. But at the same time, I'm also wondering, how often do they think that when someone brings a complaint against an officer? Yeah. That she wanted it. Yeah.

That's disgusting. Yeah. So, yeah, that's the end of the story. Then he went home to his girlfriend, Carrie Hunt. the end of the story then he went home to his girlfriend carrie hunt and that night they hadn't had sex but he did whip his dick out and kind of rub it around her vagina and she was like oh no i'm not interested and he was like okay cool and then he went to sleep okay just a totally normal thing yeah like a tuesday night mm-. But the whole time Kim was like... David's embarrassed.

Can't even speak. He can't. He's kind of blushing. He is. He's going to leave. He's going to leave. I had to readjust don't say that oh my god ladies and gentlemen it's real whenever they crack jokes the tension between their eyes is real you think this is the real love right here. So, you know, that's what happened.

And the whole time Kim is like, I just don't get it. Why would she make this up? You didn't give her a ticket. You didn't take her to jail. She's not trying to get out of something. Yeah, exactly. Why would she make this up? Why would she make it up?

And why would you pull someone over when you're off duty? And he's like, I saw the swerving. And she was like, man, if I'm off duty and I see someone swerve, I just take off in the opposite direction. Yeah. Okay.

So we are nearing the end of the interrogation and they've left him alone three times. The final time they leave him alone, Kim comes back and she's like, you made things harder for us. You lied. You didn't go home and try to have sex with your girlfriend. I just called her. And she said she was asleep when you got home.

And he was like, oh, well, that's not true. And Kim's like, dude, she'd know if you tried to have sex with her. Yeah. She says you didn't. She'd remember, and I'm quoting,

do you remember this part? No. Your weenie twirling around her hoo-ha. And he's like, oh, she's a deep sleeper you know so she says i'm a woman and i know what it feels like to be woke up for sex and i don't like that and you remember it and i don't believe you at the end of the interrogation they made him change out of his uniform and into some gym shorts and a black t-shirt which you know they had to like loan to him and he had to wear it with his boots so he looked really fucking stupid

and they took his stuff and they put him on paid administrative leave. So don't worry about his financial situation. He's doing just fine. Okay, so here's why Kim and Rocky are not heroes. Yes, they appeared to believe Janie Liggins, and I think they did. Yeah. They took her seriously. They investigated her claims. But this happened to Janie in June of 2014.

And a month earlier, another black woman had come forward and told the police that a police officer had forced her to perform oral sex on him. She told them the story and it appears that they didn't do shit about it. But when

Janie came forward with her report, they looked back at the old report and they looked at where the victim said the officer sexually assaulted her and wouldn't you fucking know that the gps in daniel holtzclaw's cop car matched the victim's story perfectly perfectly yeah i know would you look at that he'd run the victim's name through the system that night but they needed more hard evidence so they searched daniel holtzclaw's car and it was just filled with like fast food wrappers and muscle supplements and a justin timberlake cd which one i don't i still don't know i didn't

look it up brady i'm sorry i'm sorry What year was it? 2014. 2014. What would that be? I don't know. What'd he do after Sexy Back? That was like 08. Sexy Back was like 05, Kristen. Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize. Let's see.

Justin Timberlake's discography. I was off 2006. Boy, aren't you humiliated. No. And then nothing until 2013. Oh, which is the 2020 experience, so that's probably what it was. Okay. I'm glad we got to the bottom of that.

Yes. I feel much better. You were starting to get really bummed out. It was starting to get really bad. But now, now you're good. He also had a pair of brass knuckles, which doesn't seem like

something you should have. Yeah, probably not. But anyway. I mean, don't look at me like that. I don't have brass knuckles. Yeah. What if I just had

brass knuckles on right now? I would be so intrigued if you came over and you had on brass knuckles. Well, yeah. That'd be fucking weird, Kristen. I'd be like, is Brandy getting paranoid now with the baby? What if I told you my dad made me wear it because I was coming into your neighborhood?

Okay, that would be the most believable thing. Yeah, your dad buys you brass knuckles because you're going to Kansas City, Missouri late at night. Do you want to tell them what happened the last time we did an after dark episode? Oh, my gosh. My dad. Oh, yeah. So I saw my dad a couple of days later and he was like, hey, there was a shooting at blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Thank you for not revealing my address. How close is that to Kristen and Norm's house? And I was like, it's pretty close.

And it's, you guys, it's very close. He's like, this was a triple shooting. Like, that makes it worse. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, it's pretty close yeah and he's like huh it was on thursday and you guys you guys record on wednesdays so it's fine and i was like oh yeah we recorded on thursday and he was like, it was at night, so. And you had to be like. I was like, yeah, we recorded at night.

He was very alarmed. Like I had been right there at the shooting and survived with my life. You're going to be in an episode of I Survived. One time I left Johnson County, Kansas to go to Kansas City, Missouri. And I lived to tell the tale. So all this stuff in Daniel Holtzclaw's car wasn't damning, but they tested his uniform and found DNA on the inside of his pants. Yeah.

It did not belong to him and it didn't belong to his girlfriend. Excellent. It also didn't belong to Jan girlfriend excellent it also didn't belong to janie at this point great yeah yeah if only they'd gotten a heads up about this no shit sometime earlier weird they did so at this point coupled with the fact that this was not the first complaint against him, they began going through lists of every black woman that he ran through the system in the previous six months. And they went door to door to talk to those women. And sure enough, they found more women with stories

that were just as horrifying as Janie's. Also, I'm wondering, why did they stop at six months? I'm sure it was just like, well,ie's. Also, I'm wondering, why did they stop at six months? I'm sure it was just like, well, that's just it. Like, because you know, you know, this didn't start six months ago. Right, right. It's about to get real bad. Yeah.

And that's the story of Daniel. Oh, God. What I wouldn't give to just be like and we're done so they're hearing these stories they're taking dna samples from the women but none of the women were a dna match to daniel's pants the inside of the zipper area of daniel's pants right right yeah it's not like he had it like on the cuff. Yeah. Yeah. They talked to woman

after woman after woman and collected sample after sample until they finally hit a match. The DNA from the inside fly

of Daniel Holtzclaw's police uniform came from a 17-year-old girl. So, two months after he was interrogated on August 21st, 2014, Daniel Holtzclaw was arrested in the parking lot of his gym. It's my sister Jennifer's birthday. Very good. Thirteen victims had all come forward, and they'd agreed to testify at trial

yeah 13 agreed to testify exactly i think that's like a fraction of how many yeah people say 13 victims no 13 who agreed to testify i don't believe for a second that they found every single woman not a chance in hell there's not a chance in hell that they all agreed to do that like you know so many of them were like i'm not getting i survived this i'm not talking about it again i'm not and if he's going after vulnerable black women he knows what he's doing. Exactly. He's going after women who don't want to deal with the cops for certain. Yes. And we'll learn more about how he selected people, but yeah, here we go. Okay.

As the prosecution would later point out, all of the victims had been specifically selected by Daniel Holtzclaw, All of the victims had been specifically selected by Daniel Holtzclaw, because with the exception of Janie Liggins, the women Daniel Holtzclaw chose to attack all had histories that would make them very unlikely to come forward and report a sexual assault, and even more unlikely to be believed if they chose to come forward. That's the part that sucks to me. Uh-huh. Because, yeah, it's hard enough to report, but if you know you're not going to be taken seriously, why bother? Get ready to experience an all-new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner

to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9 percent, delivery credits up to $1,500 and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. Some of the women had a history of drug use. Some had warrants up for their arrest. And some had worked as sex workers. And they were all black women accusing a police officer.

The odds were stacked against them. But the evidence was stacked against that douche canoe, Daniel Holtzctzclaw yeah he was eventually charged with 36 counts of sex abuse he was charged with everything from first degree rape to second degree rape forcible oral sodomy stalking sexual battery and procuring lewd exhibition what's that mean procuring lewd exhibition means forcing them to expose themselves yeah okay daniel's family was shocked and frankly pretty mad because he'd been falsely accused brandy don't make that face his sister jenny started selling shirts that said free the claw oh god who the fuck would wear that not me oh no wouldn't it be easier to believe that though then oh yeah you you can't believe this about your own family member yeah i mean i i guess you could it would just be really hard very difficult

it would also be really hard to ask people to wear a fucking shirt that says free the claw, though. I'm sorry. Oh, absolutely. Yes. They hired a private investigator named Brian Bates. Brian Bates was well known in the area. He has this thing called John TV where he gets these drones and flies them out to get footage of sex workers and their Johns. And then he confronts them Chris Hansen-style in the middle of the act.

Oh, no, Brandy, not because he's a freaking weirdo. Yeah, it sounds like a kink to me. Yeah, not because he's, like, masturbating furiously as the drone flies. No, it's all because he wants to stop this crime. Yeah. So he got interviewed for this 2020 piece, and obviously part of his job was to dig into the victims and he discovered some stuff that oh my

personally i think falls into the no shit category what what do you got well that the vast majority of daniel holtzclaw's accusers had a checkered past yep some of them used drugs some of them had been sex workers. Yep. Therefore, we need to take a closer look at their motives for coming forward. Which, well, here's the thing. I can understand if someone has a checkered past, you might want to have to, you know, double check, triple check, do whatever. But you don't just not. None of that is by accident. That is why they were selected as victims. Yes. Yes.

And think of what that would mean if you're deciding, oh, if you've been a sex worker or if you are a sex worker, you can't be raped. Yeah. That's not true. That's not true. Oh, you've suffered with addiction. Can't be raped.

Can't be believed. Yeah, no. Daniel's family took the position that he was being railroaded by the police department. Okay. Because, you know, it's super common for one cop to do something really bad, and all the other cops stand up and say, no, you shouldn't do that. Yeah. And that the detectives had planted those stories in these victims' heads and that the victims had sketchy reasons for coming forward.

Okay. What? Here's what I know, because this is the second time I've heard this case. Okay. Their stories are all the same. Yeah. Not like coached the same. same. Like, not like coached the same.

Like, they all went through almost the exact same experience, but tell it their own way. Mm-hmm. It's very Harvey Weinstein. It's very Bill Cosby. Yes. Like, there are certain key elements. Yes. Yeah. Daniel

Holtzclaw, of course, pled not guilty. Did he? Well, he was a football hero, okay? Oh, I forgot. Yeah. You seem kind of upset with him, so let me remind you. Yeah. He was quite good at football. His trial began on November 2nd, 2015.

Oh. Mm. Mm. In front of an all- It's Kristen's birthday. Thank you. In front of an all-white jury. Cool. Yeah. It's Kristen's birthday. Thank you. In front of an all-white jury.

Cool. Yeah. Eight men, four women. Excellent. The racial makeup of the jury was a huge concern for anyone who gives two shits about justice. Yeah. Because the only black people were the 13 women. How did the prosecution not fight harder for... I'm...

So... And I did not write this down. Everybody drink! I think there had only been 24 black people in that pool. And I think that's easy to weed out. That would be my guess. Yeah. But this was only about a year after the Ferguson riots, which took place after.

And tell me if this sounds a little familiar. After a white police officer named Darren Wilson shot an unarmed black teenager named Michael Brown six times. And a grand jury didn't indict Darren Wilson. So the Black Lives Matter movement was very active, and so even though there were no people of color on that jury, a ton of people showed up outside the courthouse and shouted, We believe you! We believe you! We believe you! as the trial went underway.

The trial lasted for six weeks. In his opening statement, Assistant District Attorney Galen Geiger took more than half an hour just reading all of the counts against Daniel Holtzclaw. Then he gave an overview of all of the women's stories. He told them that the GPS in Daniel's patrol car would corroborate all of the women's testimony. Plus, they had DNA. But in his opening statement, defense attorney Scott Adams, not the Dilbert guy, Brandi, I know what you're thinking. Super disappointed. I know. was like hey hey hey easy on the dna stuff what obviously he got that girl's dna on his hands during the search then transfer brandy don't make that face then transferred it to the inside of his flight during a restroom break duh okay totally innocent Plus, these women were all sketchballs.

He didn't use that word, but you know, you get the vibe. They had criminal records. They had drug use. Over the next five weeks, the prosecution presented its case. And most of it was spent with the testimony of the 13 accusers. And it was rough. Some of them had to testify in prison jumpsuits one woman showed up high on pcp i i don't blame her at all no she's there doing the hardest thing she's ever probably had to do she's having to face the person who attacked

her she's having to in front of an all- her. She's having to sit in front of an all-white jury. She's having to sit in front of a courtroom full of people who she likely thinks will not believe her. Yep. And she's obviously had, you know, trouble with addiction. Yeah. So yeah, you fall back on what gives you comfort. Yeah of this was of course great for the defense i'm gonna briefly present what each woman said um and here we go i'm sorry yeah i barely made it through this last time i know this this is rough guys one woman said that she was high on pcp having a super strong reaction when some officers saw her and called an ambulance she was taken to the hospital where she was handcuffed to the hospital bed and left alone with daniel holtzclaw cool she says he groped her and forced her to perform oral

sex and told her not to move too much because he didn't want her heart monitor to go off. Yeah, because then someone would come in. And at one point he laughed at her and said, ha ha, you've never sucked a white dick before. At some point, a nurse came in and asked some standard questions. The nurse asked if she'd been sexually assaulted in the past 24 hours. At some point, a nurse came in and asked some standard questions. The nurse asked if she'd been sexually assaulted in the past 24 hours, and the woman said no. Because what could she say?

She was right there. He was right there. Yeah, exactly. Right over there, that guy. She said he told her he'd made some tickets go away and that he'd gotten her bond super fucking cheap two weeks later he sent her a friend request on facebook fuck that guy yep not knowing what to do she accepted it and then he gave her his number and kept telling her to call him and then he showed up outside her house asking for sex.

And she was like, I'm home with my kids. I've got my brother's kids here. I can't do this. And he was like, could you just bend over real quick? Oh, my. Oh. Yeah. When asked why she didn't tell the police, she said,

because I didn't think that no one would believe me. I feel like all police will work together and i was scared of course of course that's what she would think i want to say one quick thing about accepting the friend request yeah because i feel like there might be people out there who are like well why'd she do that okay go back and listen to our episode on lamonte mcintyre that was about police corruption and a police officer who was doing this exact same thing. And Lamonte McIntyre's mom didn't want to play that game and he found a way to get back at her. So I think it makes perfect sense that you have to figure out like,

okay, I'll just do what he wants. Yeah. Yeah. Like, how do I survive? Yep. Another woman testified that she was sitting in a car one night with her two daughters and a friend, and that two police cars showed up. Her daughters went inside, and her friend was questioned by one of the officers. She was questioned by Daniel.

And under the guise of doing a search, he made her show him her breasts and he groped her. A month later, she pulled up to her house and saw Daniel sitting there on her front porch. And she's like, why are you here? You're scaring my daughter. And he said, have you taken care of your tickets yet? And she said, I knew what I had to do to get out. I didn't have money to pay my tickets, and I knew what I had to do with him to get out of that car. So she showed him her breasts again.

When asked why she never called the police, she said, I didn't think anyone would believe the allegations that I was making. Yeah, he's the police. Yep. Yep. Another woman testified that in March of 2014, she'd been walking alone at night when he stopped her. It was the same story, different day. He made her expose herself to him. And she never told the police because, quote, I didn't think anything would be done. I mean, it was nobody there but just me and him. So to me, I just took it as my word against his.

So I just blew it off as best as I could and just walked away from it. Yep. I think that's completely believable. I do, too. I do, too. Who will people believe? It's better for me to just try to get over this on my own. Yeah. who will people believe? It's better for me to just try to get over this on my own. Another woman testified that she was walking home one night

when Daniel stopped her and she had a crack pipe on her and she had outstanding warrants. She says that Daniel crushed her crack pipe, told her to take care of her warrants, and groped her. Another woman testified that in April of 2014, she had been drinking in a car across from a family dollar when Daniel Holtzclaw approached her. And again, it's the creepy search. He told her he was going to take her somewhere to detox, and she asked if she could park her car at a relative's house so it wouldn't be towed. And he said, sure.

car at a relative's house so it wouldn't be towed and he said sure so she parked the car and daniel put her in the back seat of his patrol car and drove off and raped her near a bus lot she says she didn't come forward because of shame she'd been raped before and she didn't want to face it and she's an alcoholic and she'd been trying to quit and she didn't want her family to know that she had relapsed. That's terrible. Another woman testified about another incident from April of 2014. She said she'd been walking alone at night and she was high on crack cocaine and he offered to give her a ride home and she accepted. So they got to where she was staying and he followed her into the house so at this point she knows something's up she's got a gut feeling something's wrong but she thought that maybe he was just trying to confirm that she actually lived where she said she lived so she's

kind of showing him around and when she showed him her room he raped her and forced her to perform oral sex. And he said to her, this is, you know, better than the county. Another woman testified about an incident from May of 2014. She said she was leaving an apartment complex and had a crack pipe on her. And it's the same familiar, gross story. He forced her to expose herself. He exposed himself, forced her to perform oral sex. Then he let her go.

But first he asked her where she was going. And she said she was going to her uncle's house. And he was like, oh, that's not safe. Let me give you a ride. Oh, yeah. Oh, the irony was like oh that's not safe let me give you a ride oh yeah oh the irony yeah that's not safe that's not safe yeah someone might attack you so she got in the car and he drove her to an open field and she freaked the fuck out and he's like oh calm down calm down calm down and i think it freaked him out enough that he drove away and took her back to where she asked. This is the woman who reported that she'd been sexually assaulted by a police officer before Janie Liggins. Here's how I know that these are not all of the women that he sexually assaulted.

How? Because look how close together they all are. Look at the frequency with which he was doing it. He didn't start out that frequent. No. He started out. Let me. I'm going to do this.

Try this. See if anybody like if I hear anything. Let's see how much time goes by. And then he gets more comfortable with it, more comfortable with it, more comfortable with it, so that he's doing it constantly. All the time. Yes. Yeah. I bet he doesn't even remember how many times he did this.

I guarantee he doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. And I wouldn't be so sure that it started when he was a police officer. Oh, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So apparently the story is that this woman and her ex-boyfriend got into an argument

and someone called the cops, and while the cops were there, her ex was like, hey, you should tell them what happened to you, and she did. And again, it doesn't appear that they did anything with that information. Which, how fucking hard would that have been to just like run it through the system like see if she'd been you know see what officer has picked her up recently and then talk to him yep another woman testified about yet another incident from may of 2014. She said she was out walking when Daniel approached her in his cop car, and he started questioning her. And she didn't have any warrants,

but she had been drinking that day, so she was nervous. And he was like, I'm either taking you to detox or jail. And she was like, well, can I just go home? And he said, sure, He'd take her home. But of course, instead, he took her to a remote area and told her that she really had two choices. He said, you're going to give me head and sex or you're going to jail.

Cool. So, yeah, we can all guess what happened next. Yeah. cool so yeah we can all guess what happened next yeah but like a lot of the other women who testified this wasn't the last time she saw him popping his creepy little head up in her neighborhood at one point when she was out walking with her friend and there were a bunch of other people out he pulled up in his patrol car and was like, did you ever tell anybody about what happened? And she was like, yes, I did. And then he sped off like a scared little bitch.

Don't you kind of love that? I mean, I know there are very few bright points in this story. Very few bright points in this story. But I love the thought of him being scared. Yeah. Because that's... That's what he did to people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what he did to people yeah he did to these women he made them scared yep and nothing made him crap his pants more than knowing that word was getting out

yeah when asked she was like oh i told the whole neighborhood just not the police which makes total sense you've got this guy. He's out targeting people in your neighborhood. So, yeah, you tell the other women. Yes. Another woman testified that in May of 2014, close to midnight, she was out walking alone and Daniel Holtzclaw stopped her. And she had outstanding warrants. And she'd recently been released from prison

and once again he exposed himself forced her to expose herself forced her to perform oral sex and then he drove her to an abandoned school and raped her another woman testified about another incident from may of 2014 god i don't even know what number we're on right now. This is sickening. Where she was out walking, and he put her in the back of his car and asked her a bunch of questions, and it was all pretty fucking weird, but nothing really happened. Okay, this is the one where, like, she was in the back of the car,

and she had her purse, and it kind of spilled out, and she knew she had, like, 55 bucks on her. So when things are you know all resolved she gets out of the car but she sees a 20 bill in the back of the cop car and she's like that's my money and he was like no that's my money and she was like no no that's my money so they kind of argue back and forth a little bit but then she checks so that's okay given the benefit of the doubt she checks her purse and finds oh there's my 55 and so she checks decides okay give him the benefit of the doubt she checks her purse and finds oh there's my 55 and so she hands it back to him she's like okay i'm sorry

you're right this isn't mine and he was like yeah i put it back there what the fuck yeah so that happened but again nothing like traumatizing i guess yeah but very fucking weird yeah then a few weeks later at like 2 a.m she was out walking home from a friend's house and daniel spotted her and he stopped her and groped her when he let her go she immediately called her roommate and started leaving a message telling him exactly what had just happened to her and all of a sudden fucking daniel holtzclaw shows up again and he's like um you have a warrant you need to take care of and then he drove off oh my god being a fucking creep yeah like it's not enough to assault somebody i'm gonna show up so she seriously considered calling the police but ultimately she was like who are they gonna believe yeah and she decided to just leave it alone and pray she never saw him

again another woman testified that in june of 2014 she was out walking and she was on the phone with her boyfriend when dan Daniel showed up and told her to hang up the phone. So she did. And he offered her a ride home and she said no. But he insisted he wanted to take her home. But instead, he took her to an abandoned school where he raped her and forced her to perform oral sex. Afterward, he said he wanted to see her the next day. Like, let's go have dinner and a movie? Mm.

I think, you know, it's just him being a creep again. I mean, what the fuck? Yep. She was terrified. Her boyfriend told her to call the police, but she was scared to do that, too. Obviously.

So she eventually told her probation officer what happened after she saw Daniel Holtzclaw, the case on the news. So initially, they didn't find as many victims, but more came forward. So we've already heard Janie Ligon's story, so that means there's just one left to tell. This one also comes from June of 2014. This is the 17-year-old girl whose DNA was found. She testified that he raped her on the front porch of her mom's house. And afterward, he said, I might be back to see you later. Oh, my gosh.

I might be back to see you later. Oh, my gosh. She said she didn't tell anybody because, quote, I was afraid of what could happen to me if I did snitch or if people around my neighborhood thought I was snitching or talking to the police. On cross-examination, the defense did their best to point out the fact that most of these women weren't perfect witnesses. You know, if there is a thing. There isn't a thing

they were questioned about their past and about their drug use and their records and they were also questioned about whether they had the right guy because and this you know because one of the women when she was first brought in to tell her story initially denied that anything had happened to her which i think is pretty fucking normal for victims of sex crimes another one of the women couldn't pick daniel out of a lineup another woman gave a terrible description of daniel holtzclaw so daniel holtzclaw is 6'2 he's 260 pounds he's huge his dad's white. His mom is Japanese. But when the woman described the man who attacked her, she said he was black, muscular, and short. Okay. Here's my take on that.

Okay. A couple of things. This happened, like, all of these happened at night. Right. Right. In dark areas. Mm-hmm. Also, I have had to give a description of someone to the police. Yeah.

And it is impossible to do. I am telling you. Tell the whole story. Okay. Because I think it's important. Years ago, I was home. It was like the middle. It was the middle of the afternoon. And someone walked into my garage while I was sitting in the house. Like there's like an external door and the alarm chimed, the door had opened. And so I was like, well, that's super fucking weird. So I got up and I went to the garage. I opened the door from my house into the garage and there was a man standing in my garage. Um, and I did not handle it. And I did not handle it well. I asked him if he needed anything, and he said no.

May I get you a beverage? And then he left. That's your shock talking, though. I mean, I know we laugh about this, but I didn't know how to handle it. So anyway, so later I called the police to report that this happened. The police came, and they asked me to give a description of this guy i have no fucking clue if i was even close with the description because thinking back on it like he was it was the the more i thought about it the scarier the situation got so the scarier the person got to me yeah i have no idea how accurate like how to accurately guess someone's height from

across or their weight yes how do you no idea so i believe that it is possible that there's i believe there's a couple things possible here i believe we've got multiple bad cops possibly that's doing this that's one possibility or she just misremembered it and gave the best description that she could. I also think in a situation like this, where you're like, this man has a gun. Yeah. He could shoot me. I'm not going to look that closely at him. I'm not going to look him in the eye. Because I don't want him to know that I could give a description of him.

Yeah, I'm not going to be obviously studying his face or looking at his badge number. I would be really interested to know the man who came into my garage, like to actually see him. Yes. And know how close my description was to him, because I bet it's nowhere near. Sir, if you're listening to this podcast, his name was Jason. And it's OK, guys. He had the wrong house. Was that what he said?

Yes. What what he said? Yes. What did he say? I said, so when I opened my door, he was standing in my garage. I said, can I help you? And he said, I'm Jason. Oh, he identified himself. Yeah. And I said, okay.

And then he said, I think I have the wrong house. And I said, I think you do. And then he left. That's weird. Yeah, it was very weird. I guess it's not really weird. He was clearly trying to rob you. But you know, he didn't think anybody was home because he tried the front door first. That's how Oh, that's how why I thought the situation was so weird. I so initially, someone tried to open the front door and it was locked. And then I watched the shadow walk across the windows. Because you know how my living room is.

Like across the windows and then across the side windows. And then the door to the garage opened. Oh my God. I would have crapped my pants. I did not. I just opened the door and confronted this man and asked him if he needed anything. What should you have done? I should have called the police yeah right but i mean in that moment yeah i don't know see this is why this is why yeah i hate when people the police told me that i handled the situation wrong okay and that you should have

just like gone out the front door probably probably? Probably, yeah. And I did do one thing really wrong, is I waited a long time to call the police. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get that. I just think, I hate it when people are like, this is how to handle a situation. And it's like, you don't know until you're in it. Yeah.

Yeah. And who's to say that you really handled it the wrong way because it sounds like you were pretty polite but firm yeah and maybe that's what was necessary yeah i don't know well sir go ahead and give it another try and we'll see no don't you don't do creep. Don't do it, yeah. Okay. Janie Liggins was the first woman I talked about. She described him as a bodybuilder, but initially thought he had blonde hair. She said she didn't get a great look at his face because she was so focused on the gun.

But interestingly, she did get a good look at his squad car, which sounds like it wouldn't be helpful at all but she said it was all black which was unusual because most were black and white daniel holtzclaw was one of very few officers who had an all-black car they were in like a transition mode yeah but clearly there were some issues with some of the women's description of the man who attacked them. But even though not all of the victims gave accurate physical descriptions, they did all state where they'd been assaulted. And the GPS and Daniel's cop car matched their stories every single time. And of course, you know, the defense was like, hey, all that proves is that they were together,

which Daniel has never denied. Yeah. It does not prove that he assaulted them. Yep. The prosecution's final witness was a DNA expert who testified about the 17-year-old woman's DNA being on the inside and outside of Daniel's zipper area. Mm-hmm. Then it was the defense's turn to take over. They called just one witness.

Daniel's now ex-girlfriend, Carrie Hunt. She testified that he was a great guy. Did she? With all that wiener swirling? Did she? With all that wiener swirling? She would remember if his weenie twirled around her hoo-ha. Yeah, so he just loved the Bible.

Just read a ton of scripture. Okay, by the way, he had the world's worst tattoo. I hate to tell you, but I will tell you. He had like an old-timey scroll that was super douchey. It looked like it had been very tattered because, you know, it's so old. Yeah. And it had a Bible verse on it that said, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Cool.

Which, what the fuck? How are you a serial rapist who has that scripture tattooed on you? And Carrie testified that it was totally possible that on the night he allegedly attacked janie liggins that he'd come home and tried to have sex with her while she was asleep that happened all the time and it was possible that she didn't remember anything because she'd been on sleeping pills And he never did anything that made her uncomfortable sexually. Mm. The defense asked her

what kind of underwear Daniel usually wore when they dated. And she told them that he wore compression shorts under his uniform. And the defense was like, my, my, my, my, my,

you mean the type that doesn't have an opening in the front? That's not even a good point because there are compression shorts that have the opening in the front. Wow, look at you, expert. One semester of men's underwear. That's right. So my fiance calls himself dong outlines. That's a secret in our Discord, Brandi.

How dare you? No, so the reason they brought that up was that I believe most of the women, if not all, had said that he kept his pants on during the attacks to keep his gun on. And so he just unzipped and then pulled his... You could still, even without a flappy, you could unzip. That's what I'm saying. Lower those compression.

I don't think that proves anything. Yeah, if you're a fucking rapist, I don't think like a little bit of fabric is really going to stop you. Oh, I was going to rape somebody, but I just can't possibly pull down the waistband of my. Yeah, no. somebody but i just can't possibly pull down the waistband yeah no interestingly daniel was pretty unemotional the whole trial but he broke down during carrie's testimony and he needed a tissue yes brandy okay so i'm not a carrie fan brandy knows this already i'm i am actually doing a much nicer job than I did the first time.

So I will pat myself on the back. You haven't called her by your nickname that you gave her. What? Yeah. No, I haven't said that. Not once. Okay. You know what?

Before you guys judge me too much, I'm going to read a quote from the 2020 episode. It's terrible. Here we go. Why would he do it with these people, you know? If he wanted to go out and sleep around with people, he could just find people on the north side or people where he's from. It just doesn't make sense.

That's disgusting. Well, and let me help you out translation translation he could fuck white people yeah and um it's that's not how rape that's not how rape works rape is not about having sex yeah rape is not about like who is most attractive oh my gosh i must have them now no it's about power and control yes god what an idiot anyway she's a bodybuilder and she has a no no you guys um i'm trying to hold myself together here i'm just really not a fan of this quote really not a fan of the attitude so we had our editor, Patty, you know, cut some stuff because I'm being rude. But anyway, the jury deliberated for four days, which was a record for that courthouse. Initially, many of the jurors didn't believe the women.

They didn't like the women's histories. but when they came out of deliberation they found daniel holtzclaw guilty on 18 counts and not guilty on 18 counts wow they didn't believe five of the women but the remaining eight were believed and he was sentenced to 263 years and he had the best reaction he oh i just i you can picture it oh my gosh i can picture it so clearly yeah he bawled like a baby yeah yeah. Yeah. The sentencing took place on his 29th birthday. And so outside of the courtroom, some women who'd gathered

to support the survivors sarcastically sang happy birthday. And Daniel did sob, Brandy, which is rude that you're so thrilled. And he looked at the jury and mouthed,

how could you do this gross yep so here's the kicker the judge could have allowed him to serve concurrent time for each conviction which would have meant that he could spend more like 30 years in prison but the judge was like nah let's do each conviction conviction consecutively you are truly going away for 263 years holy but obviously and i don't have to tell you this uh the judge and jury got it all wrong daniel says that he was railroaded by the police because they didn't want another ferguson okay which is obviously true because we've not had anything like that because police are so afraid of looking bad Daniel said that of course these women accused him because when police

asked them if he'd done anything to them the women were basically being handed a winning lottery ticket and if they took the stand and said all this stuff then they'd cash it in and become billionaires um don't make that face we all know that well you know how like obviously being raped is terrible but the silver lining is that you become a billionaire afterward right that's how it works okay uh-huh yeah so the his like, oh, they saw this as their opportunity to sue and make tons and I mean billions. Billions. Billions.

Uh-huh. Okay. Naturally, Daniel's attorney appealed on the grounds that the circus atmosphere had deprived Daniel of a fair trial and that his trial attorney had failed to present expert testimony pertaining to the DNA and that the allegations from all of the victims shouldn't have been joined together in one trial. Okay.

Okay, so I want to say the quick thing about the DNA. What could his attorney have said other than what was said during opening arguments of like, oh, it was transferred during a search. Yeah. You don't want to bring your own DNA person on. You're just going to bury yourself even more. The court of appeals ruling was unanimous. They were like, nice try, dude.

The appeal had made a big deal about the circus atmosphere and how the jury couldn't have possibly remained impartial. Yeah. But Judge Dana Kuhn, who wrote the opinion, was like, look, man, they didn't convict you on half of the charges. Clearly, they were pretty impartial. then judge david lewis wrote a very spicy concurring opinion where he referred to daniel as a sexual predator and daniel's family did not appreciate it one bit he is a sexual predator yeah but they didn't want to hear that okay free the claw yeah which okay we were all worried about the all-white jury in this but I think it helps in the appeals process. It does help in the appeals process.

Yes, because it's like, dude. You got the jury of your dreams. Yes. You could not have gotten a better jury for you. Yep. All-white, eight men? Yep. Come on.

But don't worry. Daniel was super innocent and apparently had a pretty well-funded defense because he decided to take his case all the way to the Supreme Court! And the Supreme Court was like, Ew, no! Get out of here, man! Here's something gross.

The whole case has been fucking gross,'m sorry well here's an extra gross thing michelle malkin who's a conservative columnist and holocaust denier and bff to white nationalists super cool big fan has come out saying that Daniel is innocent and apparently has released a film about the case. Okay. Yeah. Here's something. I didn't need to hear anything else after Holocaust is over. Like. Okay.

You think that's the kind of thing that you're like, and we're good. And yeah. I get the point. Get the vibe just fine. Picking it up. Here's something that hurts my heart. At some point, Kathleen Zellner, who I fucking loved in Making a Murderer, and also she represented Ryan Ferguson in his appeals.

I mean, literally loved, loved. Ryan Ferguson. Little case you ever going to do, Kristen? it's yours you do it i'll do it oh will you yeah fuck yeah you got the nuts okay then do it then do it all right all right officially calling dibs okay okay okay so she's been awesome but apparently she began representing daniel holtzclaw in a bunch of civil cases claiming he's 100 percent innocent. And I didn't write this down, but I was so disturbed. I saw a tweet from her about him talking about the victim, saying that they were like a gang of mentally ill drug abusers.

It was gross. Oh, my God. It was not cool. Wow. It was not cool. Wow. So she dropped Daniel Holtzclaw because of her heavy caseload in 2019. But I'm wondering if it was just a bad look to have him as a client. It seems like a very bad look.

But I can see how you could make a lot of money on an appeal because, you know, all the victims. I don't know. That is. That's very disappointing. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, no, it can't be true. It can't be true.

Clickety clackety. Is that you? That's me on your Google machine. Yes. On my Google machine. Several of the women who came forward banded together and filed a civil suit against Daniel Holtzclaw and the city of Oklahoma City, claiming that the police could and should have stopped him sooner, which, yeah. Yeah. But that was several years ago, and I can't find anything about how

it ended. So we know what that means. Yeah. It was probably settled. And they're all probably billionaires, right? I mean, obviously, that's how it works. Exactly how it works. I do want to say something really quick, just because I feel like I haven't hit it hard enough. That obviously, like, Janie Liggins was the turning point in this whole case. He had this M.O. and he broke it. He picked Janie Liggins, and she was just driving through an area of town.

She didn't live there. She had no criminal record. She didn't have a history of drug abuse. And so when she came forward, she was believed. Luckily, she was believed. Thank God for her. Thank God for her. Thank God for her courage. Yeah.

If only they'd believed the first woman who came forward. But anyway, okay, I'm trying to move along here. So I wanted to end with an excerpt from a fantastic article written in Cosmopolitan by Treva Lindsay. She talked a lot about how this trial didn't get enough coverage in the mainstream media and that police brutality is a massive systemic problem that terrorizes people of color. This is kind of long, but it's really good. So I'm going to read it. Yeah. Sexual violence as a form of police brutality is woefully understudied and is one of the many ways black women and girls experience state violence.

Most people do not know that there are currently 64,000 black women missing in the United States. Many people are unaware that of at least 21 trans women killed thus far this year, 16 were black women. The majority of us do not know that in addition to Sandra Bland, five other black women died in police custody in the month of July alone. Whereas violence against women nationally and globally is painfully ubiquitous, the piercing media silence around violence against black women in the U.S. is particularly reprehensible. Then there's a little part more. Mainstream media failed these women. The lack of coverage thwarted a national conversation about sexual violence as a distinct form of police

brutality. The stories of these women need to serve as an important intervention in conversations about anti-black state violence, rape culture, and the vulnerability of sex workers, ex-offenders, and current and recovering drug addicts to state-sanctioned violence. Wow. And that, for the second time, is the horrible story about Daniel Holtzclaw. I hated it. You don't want one of those Free the Claw shirts? I sure don't. Okay, well... Thank you for asking, though. Good. I'm sure there's plenty available.

I doubt they sold out. I doubt they sold out, yeah. Oh. I gotta grab some water. Okay. Oh, my God, I'm so excited for your case. It's so much lighter, fluffier. Thank God I switched it up no kidding imagine following that

up with a family annihilator i mean it seems very on brand for you but okay can we like shake it out do you remember yeah yeah was it in fifth grade where we had the teacher who would occasionally let us just stand up and shake it out. Okay. My boobies are jiggling. Jesus. Well, sometimes you gotta state the obvious. All right, let's lighten this up a wee bit. Okay.

Charles Manson. That would be so mean. That would be... Oh, my God. What would be more fucked up than if you came in today with a worse case? Like... Oh, man. That would be so mean that would be oh my god what would be more fucked up than if you came in today with a worst case like oh man that would be terrible don't make that face i know you didn't i didn't you're way too pregnant to be taking on extra work you're right today i had to rest and ice my ankles. Okay.

Shout outs to my stepdad, Steve. He is really helping us out lately. He recommended this case to me. He knew three details, but it was enough for me to be able to get on my Google machine and figure it out. Did you have one of those cork boards with like this string? Yeah, exactly. Yes. And then to Nick Craven for the Daily Mail.

Most of this comes from his article. I'm craving a Daily Mail. Now David's embarrassed for you. David, which joke was worse? Yeah. Whose joke was worse? Bodybuilding from the pregnant woman or I'm craving a daily mail. Oh, sorry.

Oh, man. He pointed to Kristen. No, he pointed to Brandy and he's sorry. He didn't. He's really sorry. Okay. Kristen. Yes. Prior to this week, when you already heard this case, had you ever heard of a website

called moneysupermarket.com? Yeah, of course. I went there all the time. No. I'm not allowed to change my answer. No. It is a British website. Oh, I know.

What is it? It's a British website, so I would guess you're not familiar with it. Uh-huh. It seems like pretty cool service. This is not an ad, by the would guess you're not familiar with it. It seems like a pretty cool service. This is not an ad, by the way. They are not sponsoring this. I do not have a promo code at this time. Money Supermarket is a cost comparison website for a whole host of services,

including insurance, energy, like think electric versus gas, credit card and loan interest rates internet and cell phone providers and even this sounds exactly like our gabby you guys i think you should just go to this site and type in lgtc see what happens yeah you might get 10 off so the service is free and the site even offers free credit monitoring. But this story is not about MoneySupermarket.com. I had a feeling it wasn't. It's about its co-founder, Richard Mason. Richard, as I just mentioned, one sentence prior to this, co-founded this website.

Hold on. Slow down. sentence right to this co-founded this website hold on slow down you're going too fast just breezing through the info and this is one of england's first cost comparison websites and he co-founded it with this friend from university this friend of his was like an accounting dropout and his name was simon nixon which doesn't fucking matter but i liked his name was Simon Nixon, which doesn't fucking matter. But I liked his name because it sounds very British. Okay. By 2007. Was Richard a chef? No.

Oh, okay. Oh, right. He co-founded the same thing. I was like, what the fuck? I can tell you were so confused. No way. Did I mention that he was a chef at all? I'm sorry. You mentioned several times he co-founded that website.

By 2007, the company's stock had shot up almost overnight. Just all of a sudden, the website was doing great, took off, and Richard's share in the company was suddenly worth upwards of 10 million pounds, or- $14 million. $12.7 million. Oh, damn it. Oh, i thought i remembered it i was gonna be really impressed well i was gonna be impressed okay it was like richard was set for life now his hard work had paid off and things were good for a few years by 2016 though richard was dealing with a whole different set of stressors in his life than running a multimillion dollar business. He was sick, really sick.

And he had been for quite some time. By this time, Richard was like in his mid 50s, like 55-ish, if you are wondering where mid 50s is. Thank you. I'm not good with the numbers. You're welcome. And he was dealing with chronic lung issues. Doctors thought his lung issues were pleurisy, which pleurisy, I had never heard of before, but according to the Mayo Clinic is a condition in which the pleura, which are two large, thin layers of tissue that separate your lungs from your chest wall. So those layers become inflamed and they like rub against each other, which can cause chest

pain, especially when breathing. So all the time. Does it really say especially when breathing? I pulled that directly from the Mayo Clinic, yes. Okay, Mayo Clinic. I mean, I'm sorry. You feel fine when you're not breathing as soon as you start breathing. Well, you can't really complain then.

You know, just stop breathing. Can also cause shortness of breath. And in extreme cases, fluid can actually build up between the two layers of tissue, extreme cases, fluid can actually build up between the two layers of tissue, which actually can alleviate some of the symptoms, but because that causes the layers to not be able to rub against each other anymore. But it's actually really dangerous because that fluid can then become infected. It's bad all the way around. Yeah. So one day in 2016, Richard Mason and his wife Emma traveled to Liverpool's Heart and Chest Hospital. This was like a 65 mile trip from their home in North Wales, but they thought it would be kind of a routine thing. He'd been seeing a lot of

doctors for his pleurisy and they'd been treating it with some pretty intensive antibiotics. He thought he was going to get his antibiotics adjusted that day, kind of do some testing, see if he was improving, whatever. But this appointment turned out to be anything but routine. Richard and Emma were pulled into a consultant's office, which if you've ever been through serious medical situations, you know, is never a good sign. The consultant let the couple know that doctors had looked over richard's chart richard's chart they looked over their chart and they're like this is disgusting they looked over richard's charts they're like get it together man

what adult charts. Anyway, they looked over his charts as it turns out. And his test results. And they believed that his original diagnosis of pleurisy was incorrect. They now believe that he was actually suffering from cystic fibrosis. According to the Mayo Clinic, again, cystic fibrosis is an inherited disorder that causes severe damage to the lungs, digestive system, and other organ systems. It affects the cells that produce mucus. So in an unaffected person, your cells that produce mucus secrete a fluid that's like thin and slippery, which works like as a lubricant. Right.

But in a patient with cystic fibrosis, those secretions become thick and sticky. So instead of acting as a lubricant, they clog tubes and ducts and passageways, specifically in the lungs and commonly the pancreas. Yeah. Symptoms of cystic fibrosis include a persistent phlegmy cough, wheezing, and chronic lung infections. Cystic fibrosis currently has no known cure, and the typical life expectancy of someone with it is somewhere between 42 and 50 years. Wow.

Which by this time, we know. He's in his mid-50s. Which as you brilliantly pointed out could be 55-ish. Yes. So that I will point out is beyond 40 to 50. Thank you. Richard was stunned by this diagnosis. He told the consultant that it must be wrong. So it wasn't that this diagnosis came out of nowhere. Richard actually had a sister that had died of cystic fibrosis. He had another sister that was very ill with chronic lung infections, which they believed to be caused by cystic fibrosis. But Richard had been genetically tested in the 80s, and his tests had all come back negative. But the doctors were like, that screening must have been faulty.

We're sure that this is what you have. All signs point to cystic fibrosis. Richard was obviously crushed. He was already in his mid-50s, as we've pointed out multiple times now, which was past the maximum life expectancy. He was living on borrowed time. Yeah. But just when Richard thought he couldn't get any lower, another bomb was dropped on him. The doctors informed Richard that one of the symptoms of cystic fibrosis in men is infertility.

Richard that one of the symptoms of cystic fibrosis in men is infertility like something like 98 to 99 percent of cystic fibrosis patients who are male are born without the vas deferens so that's like that little tube that you know what what does it do testes to the penis and that's where the sperm comes out you look horrified i feel like david just learned something really i feel like i'm in sex ed in high school um and then the other one to two percent typically do not produce sperm properly because of the well that's judgy because of the mucus issues okay what that meant for richard was that he would never be able to have children and had likely been infertile since birth the doctors told him that between all of the doctors at this lung hospital this is a specialty hospital right between all of the doctors there in all of their

years of experience not a single one of them had ever seen a male cystic fibrosis patient successfully father a child holy shit richard sat in stunned silence he was confused He was in denial. They had to be wrong. He pleaded with the doctors to do more tests, but they assured him that they were certain. And again, Richard argued that they must be wrong. There was that genetic testing that he'd done. And then there was that little tidbit about how he'd already fathered three sons with his ex-wife. Yeah. He had a 21-year-old son and 19-year-old twin boys. Medical miracles, all of them. In what I can only imagine had to be one of the most awkward conversations of their lives,

had to be one of the most awkward conversations of their lives, the doctors told Richard it might be time to look into the paternity of his sons. That's so... Because they were certain they were not his. What do you got, Kristen? I don't know. I was about to have a really bad take, so I take it back. Or I even say it. I was about to have a really bad take, so I take it back before I even say it.

I'm just thinking it would be tempting for a doctor to be like, I'm sure they're yours. Okay, bye. You know? Hey, man, you take it from here. I don't know. I mean, well, you know how I feel about this. Yeah. Once you fathered them for their whole lives, they're... Yeah.

They're, I mean, one's an adult. Yeah. The other two are practically adults. Yeah. You can't throw in the towel right now. Yeah, I wouldn't think so. But let's find out what happens. Let's see what Richard does.

We're so good at cliffhangers. Richard left the office that day, just kind of in a haze. He went and sat in his car. He thought about all of the things that he was just told. And he decided that he was going to text his ex-wife. So his ex-wife was Kate.

They had married in 1987. They'd been married for 20 years. They divorced in 2007. Tell me more. Just, you know, like right after Richard's website took off and he made all of his money. What's her name? Kate. Kate.

Good job, Kate. Good job, Kate. Kate held on there so in like the beginning of 2007 the marriage was was real rocky by the end of that year they'd separated and by the following year 2008 their divorce was finalized so they had been together though for 20 years which means kate was entitled to a big old chunk yeah yeah of richard's money i wouldn't even call it richard's money no you're right i wouldn't you're right because when one person starts a business yeah it takes a ton of support from the other person yeah especially if there are children when someone starts a new career like yes there yes anything anything absolutely so that's their money yes so their divorce was i think pretty nasty at one

point finally it resulted in a settlement where richard paid kate a lump sum of four million pounds which is sorry i knew i had it somewhere here i lost i lost my uh conversion yes which is roughly the equivalent of 5.1 million dollars and then in addition to that he had to pay monthly maintenance and child support um in the amount 3,000 pounds, which is about $3,800 a month. This money was like prepayment for the kids, private schooling and stuff like that. But now, what if those kids were never his? No, man. Don't do this.

Don't do this. Don't do this. What if he was paying all that money, gave her that big chunk of money for nothing, for kids that weren't even his, Kristen? I just, I don't understand how a person could do this. And it's not that I'm without sympathy, because this would be terrible. It would be devastating. It would be absolutely devastating.

But if you've raised those boys you from their birth yeah now they're 19 and 21 years old and you know you're gonna die any minute they're your fucking kids dude yeah yeah you know that death is around the corner and you want to start up this nasty battle yeah and. And cut your kids off? I don't get it. I don't either. But that's exactly what Richard wanted to do. I'm only going to throw this in here because every article mentions it.

By the time that this happened, Kate was living very comfortably in a one million pound seven bedroom house in Staffordshire. And she had a Range Rover and a C-Class Mercedes. Good for her. Right? I think it's so stupid when articles throw this stuff in and we're like, you're supposed to judge her. She got five million pounds on her.

Of course she's living well. You know what they should put in? Right. Is if she's at the trailer park. Yeah. Then that is noteworthy but if we're talking about a multi-millionaire who's living well yeah color me not shocked exactly so so this bitch was just rich huh so richard leaves the hospital that day. He goes to his car, and he immediately composes a text to his ex-wife, Kate.

He says, Hi, I went to the Liverpool Chest Hospital today to finally receive my diagnosis that I have cystic fibrosis. In their experience, they've never had a male with cystic fibrosis who has fathered a child, let alone three. a male with cystic fibrosis who has fathered a child let alone three they went on to say that it's at least 98 certain that i am not the father of any children i was hoping that you could relieve me of the further indignity of more testing so side note here the more testing that they wanted him to undergo was like a sperm sample analysis and an ultrasound of his ball sack. Okay. So he's saying, please keep me from having to do that.

And just let me know now if I am not the father. How does the ultrasound of the ball sack work? I don't know. Seems like a breeze compared to what we have to go through. Yeah. I mean, nothing's inserted into the body. Right. I'm sorry, I'm just getting a little jealous.

And she replied pretty quickly. And she said, In spite of what you think, I am very sorry that you have been caused such an emotional upheaval. Of course the boys are yours, no matter what the science might suggest what do you think she means by that do you think she means like i think there's a two like the obviously the two percent you're in the two percent you're the father or do you think it she's saying it doesn't matter you've raised them since they were born. Of course you're their father. The last one.

Yeah, I think that's what she means, too. But then again, we know this story quite well. We do know this story. Richard didn't like this response, though. Yeah. So he took it a step further because I'm just going to go ahead and say it because I think it becomes pretty clear here by the end. I think he's a douche. It is weird.

I wonder I've been wondering, like, how many people are listening to this right now? Obviously, they don't know how it ends. And they're just like, my God, they're being really hard on this poor guy who got the terrible medical diagnosis. Yeah, I think he's pretty douchey. That's my own opinion. So when he doesn't like his ex-wife's response, he texts his 21-year-old son. No. And he said that he'd just been diagnosed with cystic fibrosis. And he said his son responded pretty well to that. And then he followed up with saying, one of the things that I've been told is that it is extremely unlikely

that someone with cystic fibrosis could father a child. Shut up, dude. That's what he says to his son. In a text. Yeah. Can't even do this face-to-face. Yeah. And the son said back something to the effect of of so you're saying you're probably not my

father and he says well i'm your dad obviously but i don't think i conceived you so at this point the son the 21 year old son decides to confront his mom right and upon that confrontation kate calls richard and she said okay you're right i had an affair Mm-hmm. On and off for about four to five years. From, like, 1995 to 1999. Okay. Which might have been when our children were born. But, you know, we only had sex six to 12 times. No. No.

No. You're having an affair wrong, ma'am. If I may offer a critique, that's not how affairs go. We only had sex six to 12 times and we use condoms every time. So it's not possible that he's the father. So Richard and Kate had met working at this same bank at some point. Right. And this man that she admits to having this affair with worked at that same bank as well, and they would meet in London, you know, whenever they were, like, on business trips

or something like that. Well, clearly not that often, though. Six to 12 times. Richard was devastated. Mm-hmm. But things started to kind of, line up yeah in his brain he remembered that when the kids were born despite the fact that neither kate nor richard were jewish kate had been adamant that all three of the boys had jewish middle names uh-huh he thought well that's kind of odd but that must be a must be it maybe

that's a clue uh-huh to who the real biological father is but this kind of sent richard on a spiral he you know on a spiral down a spiral up a spiral through a spiral got caught in a spiral? Got caught in a spiral. He was somewhere in a spiral. And he said, I didn't know what was real and what wasn't. It was as if I was living in the Matrix. It was as if I was living in the Matrix. I don't know why I paused before I put that X on the end there. Sounded like you added some Ks, too. I don't know what I did. Someone says to you, all that you know and everything you thought to be solid and true is not real and never did exist.

You are not a father. You're not able to have kids. Your name will not continue. Okay. The love is still there. the love is there you are still a father yes to those boys it's a choice to cut that yeah yeah and it'd be a terrible choice to do that well um richard just kind of fucking doubled down on that because he looked himself right in that mirror and he said let's go to court when he did that his oldest son begged him not to

of course said dad if you do this if you sue my mother yeah i won't speak to you anymore and richard said well i'm not your dad I guess I'm going to go ahead and do that. And so he did. He hired a lawyer. Damn. And they sued Kate on a couple of different grounds. First, for paternity fraud. Because he'd been led to believe all of that time.

believe all of that time he'd been lied to and used and made to believe that he had fathered children that weren't his and he believed that Kate knew it the whole time paternity fraud paternity fraud I feel like I've covered a case similar to this these things never worked out well yeah he also wanted their entire divorce settlement set aside and reexamined. Because if that money in that settlement was intended to pay for those children, those children weren't his. And that money should be paid by their biological father. Not him. I mean, I see the point. I see the point.

Yeah. But I think it's a really fucking weird choice i agree yeah i think it's a really fucking weird choice his attorney said something to the effect of we understand that this is a legal first and that there's never been a divorce finance settlement that's been set aside under such circumstances. So they wanted the whole thing examined. And what Richard really wanted was the name of the biological father entered officially into the court record. Why? Because if you believe him, it's because he believed that this man likely had no idea these children existed. And that he deserved to know that.

And that the boys deserved to know who their biological father was. This is not the motive that his sons believe, though. Okay. They believe that he did this purely to embarrass their mother, to humiliate her. Yeah. Ultimately, this didn't go to court because Kate settled, likely in an attempt to keep from having to go through all of this. Embarrassing rigmarole. Yes. To keep from having to go through all of this. Yeah, this embarrassing rigmarole.

Yes. Yeah. As this proceeded through the court system before the settlement, they did officially do a paternity test with the sample from the twins. The oldest son refused to give a sample, but it was determined by the paternity test with the twins that Richard was not their father. Yeah. to test with the twins that Richard was not their father.

Yeah. Richard settled with Kate for 250,000 pounds, which is roughly $319,000. So this wasn't about money. It was never about money. No. Would you like to know more about what it was really about, Kristen? Yes, I would. So the oldest son spoke out after all of this and said that Richard was extremely manipulative and had been for years and that it had been years since they'd had any kind of real relationship with him.

His motive was purely to embarrass their mother since i presented this case to you the first time i actually found another article on this where he responds to that oh my god in the press uh-huh cool dude this is what he says the boys have heard their mother lie over years and years whether about the affair or their paternity, and I wanted to give them a better role model. That's why I came forward. Oh, come on, dude. They're very clever boys,

and because of the way I brought them up to do the right thing, I hoped they, now grown men, would understand that I needed to take that decision. So he was doing this for his boy's sake. Yeah. Kristen. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's obvious. Obviously. One of the twins spoke and said, yeah, this whole thing, like it didn't hurt me. He hadn't been my dad for years. I felt nothing. I haven't even asked my mom who our real dad is. I'm sure she'd tell me, but I don't want to know.

Wow. Now I can't understand that. I don't understand that either. Except that if you felt like you'd been so hurt by the man that you thought was your dad that you're like, well, I'm not even going to work. I don't even want a father figure uh-huh yeah i will say though hearing this it makes a lot more sense as to why he was able to be like i'm not a father this isn't all done because he probably didn't love them yeah he finished this um this interview with i I believe it was either with the Daily Mail or the Mirror, with a heartfelt plea. Okay. Oh, my God.

No. He said, Boys, I haven't done anything wrong at all. I love you, and my door is always open. I've got the kettle waiting to go on. A six-pack of beer. Just come round and you'll get the biggest hug ever. Let's have a cry.

Let's just hug. Let's just get back to where we were before. Which was estranged? And just have a word with your mom. Tell her to stop being so daft. Oh. One last fun fact about Richard here. Okay.

He's offered a $5,000 reward. No. For anybody with information that leads to the biological father coming out publicly. Good grief, dude. So yeah, I stand by my statement that I think this guy's a douche. Ugh. Yeah, a super douche.

I mean, he got a terrible diagnosis. Absolutely. Absolutely. But this is what he did after that? Yeah. Ugh. What a choice. Seriously. What a choice. What a choice. Seriously.

What a choice. What a choice. Super dad. Thanks, I hate it. Dad of the year. Yeah, yeah. So we talked about this in our first taping, that probably the reason Kate settled so low,

well, he settled so low, would be that, you know, when you look at all the common law stuff, and I don't know how this would play out in a court right now, but like a child that is born in wedlock is legally presumed to be that of the husband. Yes, the paternity laws typically would say that, yes, if a couple is married and a child is born in that marriage,

that that man is legally the father. Yeah. Whether biologically that holds up or not. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. That was a good case. I feel terrible for those kids.

I do, too. I mean, he's made this huge, big public thing about this, and they weren't even, like, in his life. It just seems like he wanted the spotlight. Yeah. And he... He wanted to embarrass his ex-wife. Yeah. Yeah.

What a dick. I think it didn't have anything to do with money. No. No. Or he wouldn't have settled for such a low amount. Yeah. Should we take some questions from our Discord? Let's do it.

Brandy, would you like to tell them how to get into the Discord? Well, sure I would. All you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. That's patreon.com slash lgtc podcast i don't know question mark i believe it's lg use your google machines we know you can do it and then you get to join in like we have a i don't know there's a crap ton of people in here always just chatting away just a crap ton we have a of people in here are always just chatting away. Just a crap ton. We have a good time in here. I Nemo wants to know, do we have a baby yet?

No. She's still inside here. She hasn't made an appearance yet. I'm ready for her to come out. You know, I have it on good authority that she's not coming out until July. Bite your tongue do you want to tell them what my dad said that's what your damn dad says oh my damn dad your damn dad so we were on we did trivia this week and we were all asking brandy yeah by the way oh i wasn't even

gonna mention i you don't you that's how little you care kristin we were in the quarter finals or the semifinals i don't know what fucking finals they you care kristin we were in the quarter finals or semi-finals i don't know what fucking finals they were three it was down to three teams top team moves on to the finals we won we're in the finals i'm just excited because we get to play together and maybe it would make a difference to me if like i actually contributed in some way you do not really what question did we get right because of you oh my gosh okay you guys there was a question this week about a white supremacist serial killer who attempted to assassinate a public figure yeah and i was like larry yeah it was larry flint and we would none of us would have known it without you doing that case

i guess i'm amazing you are thank you anyway tell them what your dad said oh yeah so my dad was like that baby's not coming till July and everyone was like no why would you say that and my dad you know with his vast knowledge you can't I'm sorry I can't even continue speaking you're just looking at me like I'm the one who said it. I'm very upset. You will not be waiting till July. I will not. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. NeNe the Child wants to know,

Brandy, I'm planning on cutting my own bangs. Oh my God. And I have no experience, but darn it, I'm bored. Any tips other than don't do it? Don't do it. Oh my. Yes, don't do it. If I can't talk you out of it, okay, don't do it don't do it i'm oh my yes don't do it if i can't talk you out of

it okay don't cut horizontally cut vertically cut into the bangs that way you're not creating any harsh lines easier grow out process and you're less likely to end up with you know bangs in the middle of your forehead listen i know that i wasn't the one asked, but I have cut my own bangs many times in my life. None of them have turned out well. Oh, Sarah Kaya Combs and wants to know Brandy, since we know Kristen's law story, what happened to criminal justice for you? I hated college. I loved criminal justice classes, but you have to take 8 million other gen ed requirements, and I hated

it. Hated it. I'm still so shocked about that. Why? Because you seem like the type of person who would love college to me. No. Okay. English comp? No thank you. Okay. Ugh. Ugh. English comp, no thank you.

Really? Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Okay. Courtney wants to know, what was the dumbest thing you guys have fought about? Have we had a, I'm sure we've had a really dumb thing that we've fought about. I'm sure.

I mean, probably you being really dumb about something and me being really smart. Probably, yeah, probably like that time you were super dumb about something. I'm sure i mean probably you being really dumb about something probably probably like that time you were super dumb about something no i can't think of anything but i know i'm sure we've had a dumb a dumb fight yeah oh god chicken tendy wants to know kristin if you had to be pregnant nine months morning sickness baby belly etc etc but at the end of the pregnancy you got a full published book would you do it no no but only because that's that would be like cheating yeah you know yeah and sounds awful it's only been awful like the last you've been you've been like having trouble getting around and like yeah turns out that i have this whole thing that i didn't even know was a thing it's called a baby well yeah i have

that no so i've talked about it before on here that i'm having like trouble like walking upstairs and stuff like that yeah and so i was like looking into it more it's actually a thing not everybody's pregnancy is like that it's called pelvic girdle dysfunction. And like my body is not reacting to the spreading of the pelvis properly. And so it's extremely painful. I just thought it was like a normal pregnancy thing. Yeah, you're like, well, this is the sucky part. So there's like the most common problems that people have with it are walking up and down stairs. Yeah.

Check. Yeah. That's super painful for me. Standing on one leg, which you don't think about doing very often, but every morning when you get dressed and you put your pants on. Oh yeah. Putting pants on is so painful. Oh my gosh. And then getting in and out of a car. Yeah. Because you have to like, they recommend if you have this to like pivot first and get out. Don't like separate your legs and then rolling over in bed.

Like I literally can't roll over in bed. I have to like get up out of bed, like turn around and get back in the other direction. Oh, my God. Yeah. OK. When you put on pants now, do you just like lay back on the bed? So, yeah, I tried that yesterday. It's not a whole lot better. David helped me put my pants on today. He's been very good to me. Well, you know, you could have Winnie the Poohed it today.

There would have been no judgment here. Oh, Pamela says, what's something that shouldn't annoy you but does? Oh, so many things. So many things. I don't like when people pop their knuckles. Oh, yeah. Nobody likes that. Very annoying.

Nobody likes that. Really? Nobody likes that. I don't think it bothers people. I don't think anybody's like, oh, I wish I could really hear somebody popping their knuckles right now. But I don't think it bothers people as much as it bothers me. Like, it really bothers me. Okay, well, you're very special.

And there's no denying that. No, I don't know that I, I mean, I get annoyed by so many things. People don't stop at crosswalks. You know, I go bat shit. Yeah. Yeah. I know. When people don't pay for haircuts.

David's got one. And I do it. And it drives him crazy. What is it? What do you do? The microwave. Tell people about the microwave. Do you is it? What do you do? The microwave. Tell people about the microwave. Do you leave the...

Oh, leaving time on the microwave. Yeah, no. Not okay. Not okay. I agree, David. It drives him crazy. Yeah, you want to know what time it is, you look. 30?

Or if I go to put something in the microwave, I got to clear and then pick my time. It's unnecessary. Who raised you, ma'am oh carbon pancake wants to know what is the biggest unforeseen challenge of starting the podcast okay i think our biggest challenge that we did not consider uh-huh was how different volume levels that we speak at, like how much of a problem that would cause. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

That was our biggest hurdle. Uh-huh. I agree. Was figuring out how to adjust for that and figure that out. You know, the thing that's tripping me up about this question is unforeseen, because I feel like we probably should have foreseen it. See, I didn't think about that being an issue at all, because you just, you know, you fix that in editing, right? Yeah, you know what?

You're right. Initially, I did think, well, there's magic that happens in editing. And it's like, no, there's stuff that can happen. No, we don't have a team of wizards. No, I was thinking we were so impatient for so long. Well, we're still impatient, but like for so long, we just wanted people to listen. And for so long, nobody did. And, you know, especially like, obviously, if you have tons of money.

Yeah. You can, you know, especially, like, obviously, if you have tons of money, you can, you know, buy yourself a sponsorship. You can buy, not buy yourself a sponsorship, but, like, buy a mention on another podcast. You can buy ratings and reviews. Everybody does that, apparently. Except for us. Bunch of dummies over here. Had no idea people were doing this.

But no, yeah, like, I remember Norman had to coach us big time and just be like, look, it's the snowball effect. You just keep doing it. You keep doing what you're doing. You keep showing up. You keep doing the work. And eventually it'll catch on. And there is something to be said about how, for how good it feels now that, like, we have a really great following. The show's gotten much bigger and we didn't cut any corners we didn't cheat like well it's kind of the question

of do you want to be born into millions or work for it and i don't care either way Amanda Schleder. Oh, well said. It's H-S-H-L-D-R. Look, you know I couldn't do any better. It says, what weird nesting things have you found yourself doing while waiting for London's arrival? I dusted the walls in my house. Dusted the walls? Yes. What?

I felt like they were dusty. And it turns out I was right really yes i took one of those swiffer duster things just went why does your face look like that david david speak up i went balls to the wall i did every wall in the house and man disgusting There was dust everywhere. Uh-huh. Much like blood. It looks so much better. David, I would like for you to speak up now. I know. Why are you making that look on your face?

No. What? No, what? What? Did you know that Swiffer extended? Oh, my gosh. So I used... She's over here

telling the story like she did it all by herself. He did help me when I couldn't reach areas. Well, because I was using the little Swiffer duster and we have like

a giant one. Right. And I was like, I don't need that. I did need it. Uh-huh. David got it. So it was more of a team effort, Brandy't need that. I did need it. Uh-huh. David got it. So it was more of a team effort, Brandy?

It was. Mm-hmm. It was. Wow. Wow. I'm glad you were here to set the record straight. I'm glad I was here, too. Yeah, she was really going to take all the glory on that story.

I'd have been pissed when I heard this episode. Uh-huh. That'd have been a midday phone call. Brandon Lewis wants to know, Kristen, are you so tired of Brandy getting all the attention lately? God. Yes. My God. Yeah.

I'm tired of it. Brandy. No, I'm excited. Oh, God. What? This isn't a question, but there's a little side combo going on here between she persisted and Tiffany's and they think we should do a bonus video with karaoke. Oh, God, no, we should not.

I don't think you want that, guys. No. Be careful what you wish for, guys. You don't want that. Dirty Slut Goblin, I have the perfect answer with this. Okay, do it. I've been preparing for this. Goblin, I have the perfect answer with this.

Okay, do it. I've been preparing for this. She says, if you had to rap one song perfectly to win a million dollars, which song would you choose? Yeah. I would rap Antelope by Dirty Heads. I know every word to it. I used to do it as like a warm up to record the podcast. I was literally just thinking about this the other day. Because do you remember you actually did it on the podcast?

Yes. And like it didn't make it to final edit. I say that like I wasn't the one editing. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. I could do it and I'd win a million dollars. Bonus episode.

Absolutely not. People are very worried that Norman is dead. I know. Should we call him up here and get him to chat? Oh, my God. My dad. Yes. You see what your dad did?

Yes. Okay. So everyone's like, is Norman dead? When will we get proof that Norman is alive? And my dad is in the chat and he's saying, I'm not sure Norman is alive. It's been several weeks since I've seen him. Oh, my God. should we call him up? Yeah, call him up here.

We need him to make an appearance. Oh, um, well, he's just busy right now. Is that him in the backyard? Hey, Norm! Yes? Oh, who could it be? Come in, talk to the mic. He lives! Oh, Norm! yes oh who could it be he lives hello oh no people are convinced that you're dead and dp

is in here in the discord just he said it's been several weeks since he's seen you reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated. Oh, little Mark Twain. I feel like I saw DP the other day. Yeah, he's full of shit. Yeah, he is. Okay, so just to clear up the rumors, you're not dead and buried in the backyard. Correct. You are not locked in the basement.

No. Not at this current moment. Nope. You guys are not having marital troubles. Nope. Oh. Not that I know of. Very good. When are we going to get you back in the editing seat, sir? When are you going to stop being too good for us?

I've been really busy with... Actually, I just got accepted into grad school too, so my schedule is pretty full. Guys, he really did get accepted into grad school. It's very amazing. Congratulations, Norm. Thank you. He's getting his master's in public history.

You're so modest. You won't even talk about it. I've just been busy with video stuff. That's why I haven't been on the podcast. That's all. So I've been paying David to sit in for me. Hello, that's me. Thanks for making an appearance, Norm.

Sure, I am alive and well. Clearing up the rumors. Yep. I've been taking care of my wife. Yeah. Yeah, you have. Nurse Norman. Been digging in my backyard.

Okay, well that makes it sound like... One of the rumors was that you were buried in the backyard, Norm. And I just got a huge life insurance policy. Yeah, you guys are worried about Norm. You should be worried about me. Yeah, that's right. Bye, Norm. How did I do on my Norman impression? I was impressed.

That was eerie. Because I killed him weeks ago. I know. Should we move on to Supreme Court inductions? Fuck yes oh the enthusiasm kristen how do people get in the supreme court first you go to patreon.com slash lg oh my god okay i just looked it up it is officially patreon.com slash LGTC podcast. Okay, let's take that again.

Hey, gang. I'm here to tell you how to get into the Supreme Court. The hard way is to go to law school. The easy way is to sign up on our Patreon at the $7 level. This week, we are reading your names and your favorite books for the second time. But you don't know that, but you do because we've talked about it constantly. Okay, here we go. Ashley Pinkerton.

Women's Club series by James Patterson. Steffi Marie. Glenn Sheen's daughter. Nikki Hollenbeck. Pride and Prejudice. Ellie Ann Steffen. The Good Daughter. Jennifer Edwards. Good Omens. Alicia Lee. elianne stefan the good daughter jennifer edwards good omens alicia lee illusions by richard bach tiana chambers oh my favorite book is any book written by kristin that's my god it's so cute oh wow oh. I know it is really cute.

Tiana, she's making fun of you and me. Amy Johnson, thank you for the help with Amy. The Island by Ellen Hildebrand. Trista Brown. Any James Patterson book. Catherine Paroli. Catcher in the Rye. Sonia Boyle.

Or Sonia Boyle. See, Sonia, Sonia, you probably should have helped us. Ooh. I'm sorry if I mispronounced it. Sonia Boyle. Sonia Boyle. Take your pick. Wait Till Helen Comes by Mary Downing Hahn. Victoria Dolphin.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Kelly Myers The Scarlet Pimpernel by Baroness Orsizzi Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us,

please find us on social media. We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. We're, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We're on Reddit. We're on Patreon. Join us all those places. And then be sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen.

Then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the 2020 episode, What the Dash Cam Never Saw, Jessica Testa's BuzzFeed article, the 13 women who accused a cop of sexual assault in their own words, articles from the Oklahoman, the Washington Post, and Wikipedia. I got my info from the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Mirror, and the Sun. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.