Let's Go To Court! - 128: A Museum Heist & Dalia Dippolito

Episode Date: July 1, 2020

Dalia Dippolito was mid-workout when she got a terrible phone call. A police officer informed her that she needed to come home immediately. He wouldn’t say why. Dalia rushed back to the townhome she shared with her husband Mike, only to find their neighborhood swarming with police officers. Caution tape surrounded her home. Fingerprint dust covered her front door. She rushed up to a police officer, who confirmed that Mike was her husband, and delivered the awful news, “I’m sorry to tell you ma’am, he’s been killed.” Curiously, Dalia began wailing before he finished the sentence. With Brandi out on maternity leave, Kristin’s sister Kyla Pitts-Zevin filled in with a story that was totally NOT Brandi approved. That’s right. Kyla came on the podcast to talk about a museum heist. In November of 2009, a talented young flutist named Edwin Rist broke into the British Natural History Museum at Tring. His mission? To stuff a shitton of rare birds into his suitcase. He left the museum, undetected, with more than a million dollars worth of feathers. Edwin wasn’t a criminal mastermind, but it took awhile for him to get caught. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: 20/20 episode, ““Down Payment on Death” The Court Junkie episode, “Dalia Dippolito and the Attempted Murder of Her Husband” “Dippolito mistrial: State vows to try case again,” by Daphne Duret for the Palm Beach Post “Defense attorneys point to growing mistrust of police for jury deadlock,” by Jane Musgrave for the Palm Beach Post In this episode, Kyla pulled from: This American Life episode 654: “The Feather Heist” Kirk Johnson’s book: “The Feather thief: Beauty, Obsession, and the Natural History Heist of the Century” BBC article: “Natural History Museum thief ordered to pay thousands”

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about Dahlia DiPolito. And I'll be talking about a museum heist.

Brandi, my, how you've changed. I have changed. So much has changed. I've had a baby, and now I'm magically back here sitting in front of you. Hey, is this OK? What was that show? Was it Bewitched where the husband died and then they just replaced another actor and they didn't say anything? You just act completely natural. Hey, you're not Brandi Egan. Guys, I have something to tell you. I am not Brandigan i am kristin's sister kyla although i was thinking earlier although there's something i have to tell you i'm turning this into jerry springer

no there's something i have to tell you i was like girl i did have one semester of criminal justice you did i did i had shout out to professor james logan at earlham college i had criminal justice and moral vision and i had the intro to legal studies course i got two semesters under my belt you think you're so special coming in here with your two semesters i got double the knowledge that brandy has and about a 16th of the laugh that she's got. So, OK, question. Yes. Do you think people will say we have the same voice? Yes.

I mean, yes, that it's very similar. So last night we had trivia with like Brandy and the gang and we were talking about how we were going to do the podcast because, you know, Brandy just had a baby. For anyone who doesn't know, Brandy just had her baby and we were like, oh, it's going to be weird because we have the exact same laugh. We know. We've always known we have the exact same laugh. But Casey was like, you guys also have the exact same voice, so it's going to sound like Kristen went crazy and she's just alone. Yeah.

Talking to herself. Brandy's not here and Kristen's just gone crazy. You know what we should do right now? What? Put on your business hat. It's time to plug the Patreon. Oh, girl. Well, let me plug the Patreon. I don't know. You don't know the words. I don't know the words,

but let me tell you. Okay. I'm a paying member of the Patreon. It's true. This cheap bitch makes her family pay to be in the Patreon. No free rides here. That's right. No her family pay to be in the patreon no free rides here that's right no i pay to be in there and i enjoy it very very much so yes the patreon let's see if i know the information at the five dollar level yeah you get into the discord it's like a 90s style chat room

and it's a blast and you get bonus episodes yeah Do you get a sticker? No. No $7. We're not giving stuff away $7. Girl, I got my sticker on my car. Yes. So at the $7 level, you get inducted into the Supreme Court on this very podcast.

You get into the Discord. You get bonus episodes monthly and bonus videos. Right? Kai, that was great. It's very very obvious you've had two semesters of something uh i've had many semesters i listen to every single episode y'all i'm a total fan girl i'm like oh my god so since you're part of the discord you well part of the patreon yeah you know that we had a bonus episode come out last week. So Brandy was induced on a Tuesday. We were going to record the bonus episode and she was like, can't do that. So Norman stepped in.

He bravely said that he knew the intro to the podcast, so he didn't need to look at the notes. I tell you what, that terrified me because I listened and I knew that, you know, you had asked me to do this episode and I was like, I got to be ready. Well, but you knew that I would show you the intro, right? I wouldn't. Well, I think I would have said I don't need it. Yeah. And then you saw me and I was you laughed at me as I was doing the intro with you because I was so laser focused on this Google document. I was like, I am not going to mess this up right now.

This is too important. It is too important. the stakes are too high the stakes are high i'm subbing for brandy very high stakes okay i've got i've got a really good case i am so ready i'm excited okay so thank you to bobert moss and ro ro jamama in the Discord, who both were like, this is a Kristen case. And let me tell you, it is. Okay. The vast majority of this comes from a 2020 episode. I'm not going to tell you the title because it gives it all away. Spoilers.

Got it. Yeah. The love story between Dahlia Mohammed and Michael DiPolito sounds like it comes straight from a fairy tale, Kyla. Okay. It's so so romantic be ready to cry i'm barfing already okay the couple met when michael was married to another woman okay and the reason they met was because he went on a website called eros.com where he ordered up dahlia as his escort for the evening. Oh, that's not starting out great. Not a strong start.

So Dahlia and Michael met up, and they had a great time. Good. I'm glad for them. Good. Yeah. First of all, they're both very attractive, you know, so check. Dahlia has long, dark hair, big, beautiful eyes, a massive mouth, but not one of those, like, you know, duck things.

Like it was natural yeah a natural okay big mouth the 2020 episode they did a ton of slut shaming i'm not gonna do that they oh come on kristen just a little like i'm just gonna do a little slut shaming just a little scoop of it no so they also this one woman okay so dia, say what you will about her. Dahlia is pretty. Okay. But this one, you know, talking ahead was like, well, you know, some people say she's pretty. You know, I guess she is when she has her hair and makeup done. Oh, my God.

Okay. Well, I mean, aren't we all? Exactly. Don't judge me when I roll out of bed. And then, so our boy Michael Michael looks and I'm not exaggerating looks exactly like Ronnie from the Jersey Shore but maybe a little older should I google image no no no it's gonna ruin it okay but you know what Ronnie looks like yeah well yeah acting like I don't know Ronnie from the Jersey Shore I'm not too too near classy. Who's that? So these two got together.

And oh my God, they had so much in common. They both loved movies. Okay. And outdoor activities. Okay. And Starbucks. Okay, this is reminding me of, you know what this is reminding me of as my sister.

What does that remind you of? What? The movie A Mighty Wind mighty wind when i think her real name's jennifer something i can't remember but she's married to that super old guy and she's trying to pretend that they have a lot in common and she's just like we both like model trains we could talk or not talk it's best in show right yeah it's best in show oh it is yeah yeah yes you're right it is because she's secretly in love with her dog trainer yes yes yes spoiler alert spoiler but it's that same thing where it's like oh you both like movies you both like food you both breathe oxygen we could talk

or not talk for hours yeah yes yeah so they have nothing in common. But, like, yeah, two people like movies and outdoor activity and Starbucks. Great. Wow. Sorry, is that a bad drink? No, no, no, no, no. I'm trying not to make a lot of mouth noises. Oh, don't worry about it. If you and I sound the same, like, okay, Brandy has the laugh.

I have the gross mouth sounds. Oh, really? Our editor. Yeah, so anytime we have an editor for the podcast, we only have two. But, like, in the introduction, I'm like, look, Brandy says um a lot, so you're going to have to take that out. Yeah. And I am like.

Ew. I know. I know. It's gross. That's why I tell them to cut it out. Except for they'll have to leave that in. Yeah. Well, now, the good thing is just in normal day- day to day life, I don't notice that you do that

in normal day to day life. You're not a mouth noise person, which is important because I would never spend time with you if I constantly sounded like I needed a beverage. Yes. Yes. Okay. So these two were great. They're super into each other. Yes, Michael was married, but he told Dahlia, I'm going through a divorce. He also told her, although she says he didn't tell her, but, you know, okay. He says he told her that he had been a bit of a douche in his past. He had gone to prison for conning old people. Oh, no. He was one of those guys. It sad i shouldn't laugh well the people

that you don't want your grandma picking up the phone and talking okay that's exactly so he would call old people and be like hey i've got a huge investment opportunity for you and he'd just take their money eventually he got caught he pled guilty to organized scheme to defraud, unlicensed telemarketing, and grand theft. Okay. So he'd served two years in prison. So when Dahlia and Mike met, he was still on probation. But none of this mattered because they hit it off so hard. He got divorced. Five days later, they went to the courthouse and got married. Oh, no. That's how in love they were. They took their venti lattes and they were like, bitch, let's go. Let's go on an outdoor activity to the courthouse. And man, things were so great. Dahlia knew how

badly Mike wanted to get off probation. But a big stumbling block was that he owed restitution to his victims. So he had a much better shot of getting off of probation if he paid back the money he owed to all these people. So Dahlia was like, let's tackle this thing together. She was like, you owe like $191,000 in restitution. How about this? You get $100,000. I'll pitch in $91,000. And I'll wire the money to your lawyer. This sounds crazy.

No. Like, how is that? Sounds generous. How long is he on probation for that it's worth all that? That's what I want to know. Well, I assume he has to pay restitution. Regardless. Regardless. And so a way to get off probation faster assume he has to pay restitution. Regardless. Regardless. And so a way to get off probation faster is maybe to pay this restitution.

Okay, okay. And how generous of her to work up 91 grand and handle that pesky wire transfer. Because, you know, nobody wants to have to deal with that. Nobody wants to do a wire transfer. But Dahlia never quite got around to making that wire transfer. For the record, Dahlia says quite got around to making that wire transfer. For the record, Dahlia says this didn't happen. But, you know, Mike's saying, yeah, she took $100,000 and then was like, ugh.

Okay, I did not understand that when you said that initially. I thought he was transferring $100,000 and then she was transferring $91,000. He was supposed to transfer $100,000 to her. He transferred $100,000 to her. She was going to match it with her $91,000 and then was supposed to transfer 100 to her. He transferred 100 to her. She was going to match it with her 91 and then handle that wire transfer. Got it, got it, got it. So that didn't happen, but Michael didn't have much time to worry about that because things were getting really weird for him. One day, he decided to whisk Dahlia away to the Ritz-Carlton. It was going to be a fun, Talia away to the Ritz-Carlton.

It was going to be a fun, romantic getaway. But on their way there, a police officer stopped them and was like, hey, we received an anonymous tip that you're a drug dealer and you're dealing drugs out of your Tahoe. Huh. And Mike was like, what? Because he wasn't dealing drugs. Yeah. But the officer asked if he could search mike's vehicle and mike said sure

so the officer searched it didn't find anything but the next day mike okay my understanding is he went to a gas station pulled off the tanky thing yeah yeah the gas cap, the gas cap. And when he did that, holy shit, there's this, like, baggie of, like, an assortment of pills. Stop. What? Uh-huh. Okay, could I back up real quick and just say, like, if you're having to pay all this stuff back, you should not be going, this is like the Daryl Pitts in me coming out. This is 100% the DP. You should not be going to the Ritz-Carlton.

You should be going to the Hotel Motel Holiday Inn. That is the most Daryl Pitts thing anyone has ever said. It absolutely is, but it's like, everything you were saying after that, I was so fixated on, like, they shouldn't be doing that. First of all, he shouldn't be paying for sex. He should be having free sex. Free sex at home. He should have never even

had the escort. Save your money. Retirement accounts. Save early. It matters, guys. You guys are being sponsored by like a Roth IRA. By Daryl Pitts. Yes. Money saving tips. Yes. Okay, so he finds a bunch of pills inside

the gas cap. And he's like, holy shit, someone is trying to frame me. Yeah. He actually asked Dahlia if she put the drugs in his truck and she's like, no. So that was weird. It made Mike nervous because if he got caught with drugs, he'd be in violation of his probation and he'd have to go back to prison. Yeah. And Mike did not want to go back to prison. He had his life all straightened out. every day he got up super early for an intense workout

at la fitness getting his runny body body building out that doesn't happen naturally you got to work at it yeah then he went to starbucks got a little drink then he went to his aa meeting this dude had a schedule and he stuck to it he was super disciplined because he wanted to stay on the right track and also he wanted to be buff and hot. So there you go. I mean, same, yeah. But unfortunately, despite the fact that he worked out religiously and maintained, I assume, a strict diet, just from looking at him,

I think a strict diet, he had little love handles. Yeah. And they just embarrassed the shit out of him. he gonna get surgery and get him yeah he got liposuction oh my gosh florida i'm telling you i honestly in the midwest we're just like embarrassed but we don't go into the night you just get you bigger size pants at old navy you don't worry about that. I feel bad that people are so fixated on those little things. Like, I don't know. I feel bad for Ronnie or whatever his name is. Michael.

Michael. Okay. I know. Even though he like ripped off old people, I was kind of like, oh, dude, you've got a nice body. Yeah. Don't feel ashamed. Think about the good things unless maybe well no you have to have a nice body to look like ronnie from jersey shore

so yeah it can't all be fake yeah yeah okay okay so you know he got liposuction to remove his little love handles and i assume he was pleased with the results but the downside was he couldn't work out for a while he had to recover so on august 5th 2009 at about 6 a.m mike was lying in bed recovering from lipo and dahlia got up to go to the gym and on her way out of their townhouse she was like okay toodles i going to go get my pump on and maybe I'll bring you home some Starbucks. This woman fucking loved Starbucks. Did they seriously like love, loved it all the time? Loved Starbucks.

And Mike's like, okay, cool. Yeah. So she goes to the gym and she's working on her fitness when all of a sudden she gets a phone call from the police. She didn't pick up because she was dedicated to her workout. What? Okay. So this dude had to leave a message and be like, hey, I'm a detective. Call me back. So she did. And the guy was like, i need you to come home immediately and she's like okay she has i told you i wasn't going to do a lot of slut shaming yeah i'm going to do some voice shaming she has the most annoying voice you ever heard yeah so it's a combination of vocal fry valley girl lisp oh my so she's like okay okay, is everything okay?

Oh, no. It's really bad. See, that's the kind of thing where even as the detective in, like, a professional and difficult situation, I'd be like, no, it's not. It's really bad. It's bad. Come quick. So she's like, what's going on? And the guy's like, I just need you to come home, and I'll tell you what's going on when you get here.

Dahlia was in a panic. Dahlia was in a panic. She rushed home, didn't even stop at Starbucks. Oh, my gosh. And, of course, there were cop cars everywhere. And caution tape as far as the eye could see. There was a film crew because the TV show Cops, rest in peace, was there filming. Dahlia rushed up to Sergeant Frank Ranzi, who was very buff and hot, and asked what was going on. Everyone in this story is hot.

Where is this happening? It's in Florida. We're in Florida. It's Palm Beach County. It's Boynton Beach, I think is what it's called. Okay. But you know, people are hotter in Florida. They've got to be. They wear less clothing. Exactly. So she's there in her little leggings and tank top and little black Adidas hat looking pretty good. And poor hot Sergeant Frank had to give her the terrible news. He said, listen, we had a report of a disturbance at your house and there were shots fired.

Is your husband Michael? And she's like, uh-huh. And he said, okay, I'm sorry to tell you, ma'am, he's been killed. Okay. We're going to do a little acting now. Okay. I'm ready. So the line is, okay,

I'm sorry to tell you, ma'am, he's been killed. Can you say that to me? Kristen, I was president of thespian troop number 888

at Shawnee Mission Northwest High School. I remember. You've been training for this day your whole life. And I will be Dahlia. Okay.

What's the line again? Okay, I'm sorry to tell you, ma'am, he's been killed. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry to tell you this,'am, he's been killed. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry to tell you this, ma'am, but he's been killed.

Oh, my. Too much. It's like she knew what the end of the sentence was. What? Yeah, uh-huh. Kyla, what? Yeah, she knew too much. Maybe she was like Miss Cleo.

Maybe she had some psychic abilities. She was like, I know the word had some psychic abilities she was like i know the word killed is coming she had the free reading she knew all about it she lost it so hard she even did that like open mouth thing where it's just and frank i must say didn't have the best bedside manner because he's just like, try to calm down, ma'am. And she's like, I want to see him. Do you think he knew from the get go? This is a bunch of BS.

Oh, yeah. OK. Oh, yeah. I mean, you would imagine how mad you would be as a detective. Somebody's throwing on this display and you're having to watch it. And, you know, the whole time this person's full of shit how does he know she's full of shit because she jumped the gun and was bawling before he even finished the sentence okay okay yeah so frank's like i'm sorry ma'am we need your help we need you to help us find your husband's killer let's go back to the station where we can ask you a few questions

and she's like okay my dogs and they're like we took care of the dogs you know it's like and it's all on tape because of cops because of cops oh my gosh cops is there on the scene so now it's like 7 a.m and they've got her in a little interrogation room. And she was like, I don't want to do her voice. I don't want to be videotaped. And this dude, Sergeant Paul Sheridan, was like, well, that's just part of it. Yeah. And she was like, I want to see Mike.

And he's like, trust me, you don't. Oh, God. And Sergeant Paul started asking her, you know, all the normal questions. Does your husband have any enemies? Is there anyone who would want him dead? And Dahlia was super helpful. She's like, well, I mean, he did go to prison, you know, for ripping off a ton of people. And, you know, maybe it's revenge of the old people. No, she didn't know that.

She didn't say that. I was like, Dahlia, you clever girl. Maybe, you know, he was trying to get off probation. Maybe he pissed people off. Or maybe it's some of the dudes that he ran the scheme with. Maybe they were mad, you know, they didn't all go to prison. Maybe it was, um, she's got too many ideas. I'll tell you, like right now, it's like, it's brainstorming. There's no brainstorming. Oh, my God. So the officer's like, well, can you give me any names? And she's like, I don't know. Well, Pascal, Pascal. He's like, okay, all right. And also, you know, Mike's a recovering alcoholic, and he used to smoke crack. So, you know, Mike's a recovering alcoholic and he used to smoke crack. So, you know, there's just a wide variety of possibilities.

And Paul's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, lots of potential suspects. But you two, you're good, right? And she's like, oh, yeah, we're fine. The marriage is awesome. But, you know, all I know is he wouldn't open the door for a stranger. We don't open the door for strangers. Only people we know. Wow.

So. Your voice, like, your voice is on the podcast. And this is another one of them. Chef's kiss, Kristen. Thank you. It's like I'm in the room with Dahlia, I'm sure. You know, we received a complaint. About your voices?

Why? What was wrong with it? Some lady on Twitter, like a couple weeks ago, it was when I did some Southern accents. So I was really busting out some material. Yeah. And she was like, I like the podcast, but please stop with the accents. It's terrible. And I just responded, no.

Oh! Kristen doesn't have time for that mess. No. So time passes, and at one point, they brought in this random dude into the interrogation room. And this dude looked so ashamed. He was in handcuffs, and he was looking down, and the officer said to the guy, Do you know her? He pointed to Dahlia, and the officer said put your head up but the

handcuffed guy oh he was so embarrassed he like didn't want to look and the officer said what were you doing coming out of her house and of course you know dahlia was just stunned she's like i've never seen him never seen him who's's that? Kyla. Excuse me. This may surprise you, but Dahlia was full of shit. And she knew that dude. Full of shit.

She had seen that man before. In fact, she had hired him to murder her husband. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. What she did not know was that she'd hired an undercover cop to do the job. Those were laser beams.

Those were laser beams coming from our arms. Oh, that is. It's the best. The best. The best. Who did she? I mean, I'm just like, how do you get, how do you run into an undercover cop? Is she like googling hiring a

hitman and then okay quick aside yeah things that you google so today my daughter alexandra had a really bad nosebleed and it's like i don't know what happened but like some blood got on the wall and i was like what am i gonna do maybe i should just google how to get blood out of the walls and then i was like no no i've seen enough true crime like no okay so anyway did she like google hire a hitman and then the police know and then they listen and find out okay all right all right so let's travel back in time to figure out how we got here according to the most widely accepted version of this story, and it's the version I believe, just to be honest, Dahlia wanted Mike gone from the get-go. She tried to get him put in prison by planting drugs in his car and by calling the police on him. And when that didn't work out, she decided that she wanted him dead. Oh, my God.

She had been married to Mike for six whole months, which marriage is hard, but it's not that hard. And evidently that was like plenty of time. She's like, man, I'm ready for this dude to be donezo. So she called up her friend, Muhammad Shihad, who, like everyone in this story, is super hot. He's an aspiring actor. Evidently he was on an episode of Burn Notice.

I don't know. Loves to gamble, yada, yada, yada. They'd been lovers and friends for years. Okay. So on July 31st, 2009, Dahlia reached out to Muhammad and was like, hey, Mike is super controlling. He's physically abusive. He's emotionally abusive. This dude needs to go. I don't want a divorce. I want him dead. So Muhammad is like, whoa, okay. He's super uncomfortable because apparently Dahlia told him that she'd already tried to kill Mike and it hadn't worked. Had she really? What'd she do? I mean, it's not funny, but she went to Starbucks. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.

You can't make it up. So she went to Starbucks, got two iced teas, one for her, one for him. But she laced his with antifreeze. Oh, no. And so Mike took one sip and was like, ew, this is disgusting. Something's wrong with this. And he, like, didn't finish it, and he says he was sick for, like, ew, this is disgusting. Yeah, something's wrong with this. And he, like, didn't finish it, and he says he was sick for, like, two weeks. Ugh. So Dahlia was talking about

how she wanted Mike dead, and Muhammad was like, roh, roh, she seems serious. He immediately got worried. Like, okay, if Mike winds up dead, the police might suspect me, and I don't want to get in trouble for something that i didn't do so as soon as they were done talking muhammad like went to the police station and was like hello this hot woman is trying to murder her hot husband please send your hottest officer to intervene on behalf of this hot man speaking to you right now yes by the way i don't know her last name or where she lives good luck luck. And the police are like, wow, OK, we're going to need you to wear a wire. Oh, and Mohammed agrees. And on August 1st,

2009, Mohammed called up Dahlia and was like, hey, meet me at the mobile gas station at 430. So she shows up, got in the car. She had no idea she was being recorded, had no idea there were video cameras inside Muhammad's car. So right away, bing, bang, boom, she starts talking about wanting Mike dead. And Muhammad was like, good news. I know a guy. He's a very serious guy, though, and he will do this job. And she's like, well, how am I going to know when he's going to do it? and she's like well how am i gonna know when he's gonna do it and mom is like it's not like when you win the lottery and that dude comes to your house with the check and you

don't know it's coming and you're like got no bra on you get it scheduled girl he's like well i don't know he might call you he might tell you you to go out of town for the day. And she's like, and this bugs me more than anything. She goes, but I'm not going out of town. Oh, my God. Isn't that so? I mean, I know we're getting mad about the wrong thing. Yes.

But holy shit. We're trying to arrange a hit here, and you't even like pretend that you're gonna go at it but i'm not going that would be a lie kristin she doesn't want to lie jeez i don't know go to pete's coffee but i prefer starbucks so then she forks over 1200 for the hitman to buy a gun because the hitman doesn't have a gun. Right, right. Anyway. Hitman without a gun. And she shared two pictures of Mike so this dude would know who to murder.

And the whole time she was like, no one's going to suspect me. A couple days went by. Then Mohammed was like, hey, I want you to meet up with the hitman to iron out all the details. And she's like, absolutely. So she agreed to meet her hitman in a CVS parking lot. So police officer Witty Jean went undercover in his best hitman outfit. It's a man named Witty Jean?

Yeah. Is that a normal name? I don't know. Okay. W-I-D-Y is the first name. And Jean is the last name. Okay. Okay.

Okay, Kyla. Yeah. You're going undercover as a hitman. What do you wear? What do I wear? Yep. Probably some chaps. I don't know.

I feel like you just wear, like, neutrals. Okay. You know, blacks or grays or some browns. You know, just very neutral. Okay. I really enjoyed blacks or grays or some browns. You know, just very neutral. Okay. I really enjoyed Witty Jean's outfit. He was in a pair of basketball shorts and a t-shirt that had the recycling logo on it. You know, a triangle logo.

But over the top of the logo, it said, re-gifter. Oh, my. And Dahlia showed up to the meeting in a cute little sundress. And he's like, you look good. And she's like, thank you. And the vibe was kind of casual, but also businessy. And she was like, how soon can this happen? He's like, that's up to you.

But, oh, by the way, I need more money because that $1,200, that was just for the gun. And I had to buy a phone. And I had to buy some other stuff. And, you know, being a hitman sure is expensive. In fact, I've already spent more than twelve hundred dollars just to get to where we are today. And she's like, OK. At one point he was like, are you sure you want me to kill this dude? Because once we're done here in our super secret CVS meeting, there's no turning back. I'm going to kill this guy and there will be no way for you to reach me there will be no way for you to call this off and she said I'm positive like five thousand

percent sure oh no five thousand five thousand that is the most percent everyone knows there's no percent over she blew the top off of that and she said, I'm a lot tougher than what I look. I know you came here and you're like, oh, what a cute little girl or whatever. But, you know, I'm not. Not just a cute girl. She's not just a pretty face. She wants to be a murderer, too. I know that everyone looks at me and says, oh, what a cute little girl.

But I'm more than that. That's what they say every time they look at me, Kyla. Oh, my gosh. My whole life. Your whole life, Kristen. More than just a pretty face. I can also commit murders, too, for hire. Absolutely.

Absolutely. So they made the arrangements that on Wednesday she'd go to the gym and she'd come back home and, oh, no, sad times. She'd find Mike's dead body. Meanwhile, the police were like, we're doing a great job with this case. We're going to look so cool when the episode of Cops comes out, which I do want to pause here. The police were obviously very proud of this. I don't think you should be proud when someone just comes in and says someone's trying to do a murder for hire. Like someone has handed you

on a silver platter. A trophy. They've handed you the case. Yeah, they were excited for the win. It was like an easy layup. They were pumped. But they're acting like, oh, we did look at all the things we have done. Yeah. I'm, on record, I'm just not super impressed.

Fair. Witty Jean, step it up. No, I'm just not super impressed. Fair. Witty Jean, step it up. No, I liked Witty Jean. Oh, good. I liked his top. Everybody else but Witty Jean. He had a great top. So on the day of Mike's murder, they waited for Dahlia to go to the gym,

and they knock, knockety-knocked on the door of the townhouse, and Mike answered it, all kind of sleepy and perfectly lipoed, and were like hey man your wife's trying to kill you today we're gonna need you to get out of here i mean i didn't write down the exact quote but it was that casual it was just like hey your wife's trying to kill you today we need to get you to get out of here and poor mike was like it's so surreal like he kind of like stumbled back like, you're not prepared for this moment. No. So he really, Mike did not see this coming, and this is a quote, because their sex life was incredible. I mean, what?

What does that even? You can't possibly think that your wife's going to kill you when you have such an incredible sex life. Well, also, like, I mean, she was a sex worker, so she was probably used to... She was a professional, so she's used to making you think she's having a good time. Yeah.

Don't be fooled, Mike. Poor Mike. He thought he was with an amateur. Well, based on what you just said, it's like Mike was more hurt about the sex being fake than the fact that he was about to get murdered. Well, you know, this was, he said

that quote in retrospect. It wasn't like, what? No, we just tested. That was the immediate when he opened the door and they said that, they were like, but the sex was so good. You've got the wrong guy. So Mike skedaddled and the police did a lovely job with the set design, with their caution tape. They even put fingerprint dust all over the condo door to make it look like.

I love it. Wouldn't you love to be setting that scene? That would be kind of fun. You're just faking it and having fun, joking with your friends. They put the patrol cars everywhere. The works. And then they called Dahlia and she arrived at the scene by the way in the 2020 episode so the first guy he calls Dahlia and he messes up her last name and she

has to correct like because it's Dipolito so he said it he said it kind of funny and in the 2020 episode they're like he purposely miss said her name to throw her off. And like, no, he didn't. What? No. They try to like, I was about to say something gross. What? I think sometimes in 2020 in Dateline, they kind of jerk off the cops a little bit. Yeah. Because they've given all this footage. But it's like, yeah, it's like, no, they're allowed to make a mistake.

This guy messed up the last name. It wasn't some, you know, brilliant plan. So anyway, Dahlia comes. She arrived. You know, she did her best acting as the grieving widow. So now we're back to where I left off earlier. Dahlia is in the interrogation room. They've just brought in the undercover cop.

Yes. Who she hired as a hitman. And she's like, I've never seen him. Uh-huh. I'm ready. At this point, Sergeant Paul was like hitman. And she's like, I've never seen him. Uh-huh. I'm ready. At this point, Sergeant Paul was like, OK, the jig's up. Sorry. Sorry.

For the listeners, that was like a burp that Kristen stifled, but it still managed to escape just a little bit. Just wanted to keep everybody updated on what's going on in here. Patty, please censor both of those. So Paul is like, the jig is up. You're being arrested for solicitation of murder. That was an undercover police officer. We recorded the whole thing. We know everything.

You are caught. And she was like, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. I'm just in my sundress. I'm just a cute little girl. I know you look at me and you think I'm just a cute little girl and I am. I am the girl that I am. And he's like, hey, we took

pictures of you in the CVS parking lot. We know the whole story. And she's just still, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. But of course they arrested her. And as they did, they were like, by the way Mike is alive. And she's like, thank God. Oh God. Oh, God.

Okay, I thought the cop was going to lose it. Because he's like, oh, thank God. Like, he's so, so annoyed. I'm so glad he mocked her. That's funny. So they open the door. And Mike was standing right outside the interrogation. Very much alive.

They've shown him all the tapes. You know, he knows now. And, you know, he's looking very cocky, very alive. And Dahlia is there handcuffed. And she's like, Mike, please come here. Please come here. And he stood back. He's like, no.

After her arrest, Dahlia called Mike from jail. And she was like, Mike, can you please come here? Okay, I listened to an extended version of their conversation it is so crazy infuriating it is the most entitled thing you've ever heard she ordered a hit on this man and then she's like you're not helping come get me you hire me an attorney blah blah oh my gosh she's like mike please i need an attorney please help me and he's like you said you wanted to have me killed i heard that and she's like that is not true that is not true how can you believe that and he goes i heard your voice at one point bless this guy i actually do kind of like him He was just because he'd done time before.

And he was like, look, just keep your head down. Don't say much. You know, just you're going to be alone in there for a while. Just, you know. Wow. Come on. So the police were very proud of themselves for the work that they'd done with the fake set design work, fake crime scene. They'd done some acting that any community theater would have been proud of.

And best of all, they had that video footage of Dahlia fake wailing about the news of Mike's death. So the day they arrested her, they uploaded the video for everyone to see. What? The video of her being told that her husband was dead they uploaded it for everybody to see yes yes okay i only have two semesters of any kind it was like undergrad and not what i was focused on but like shouldn't you not do that until charges come and like everything well she's been charged she's been charged so the deal is this is Florida and Florida has like the

most open laws about you know freedom of information everywhere. But still yeah this seems kind of nuts that like the day this went down they just like uploaded this video and of course the media went crazy. Oh absolutely. These hot people this crazy

story and she's like wailing before he's even said, your husband's been killed. You know, comedy gold. Oh, my gosh. In April of 2011, Dahlia's trial began. The prosecution couldn't have asked for a better case. They had all the footage. They had the undercover cop. They had Mohammed.

They had her on tape saying she wanted Mike dead. They had her on tape paying for a better case. They had all the footage. They had the undercover cop. They had Muhammad. They had her on tape saying she wanted Mike dead. They had her on tape paying for a handgun. They had her on tape saying she was 5,000% sure she wanted him gone. The prosecution put Mike up

on the stand and he did a pretty good job. He owned up to his sketchy past and he talked about his marriage and how he thought it was great. Sex was great. Sex was great. Sex was incredible. Jury, I don't know what to tell you.

And how blindsided he'd been by the murder for hire plot. During cross-examination, Dahlia's lawyer, Michael Son, like, was, like, hell-bent on getting under Mike's skin and just really bringing up, like, that he's been on probation and he's on probation and he's on probation he's on probation so he keeps bringing it up and bringing it up and bringing it up and finally mike goes you're like a parrot and the lawyer goes a parrot what does that mean i've been called a lot of things but and mike goes did you do that on probation were you on probation you know what i'm talking about i'm just having fun with you. Come on. The jury must have thought it was hilarious.

Yes, everyone laughed because, you know, fair point. Then the prosecution told the jury about a man named Michael Stanley. He was Dahlia's ex-boyfriend. And apparently he'd helped Dahlia plant the drugs in Mike's car. And so the prosecution had this theory that Dahlia wanted Mike DiPolito killed so that she could have all of his money and all of his possessions and then go bang her hot ex boyfriend.

Another source I heard said that, like, Mike had this townhouse. And I don't know how much it was worth, but I don't think it was just crazy. But she had this fantasy that she and her other Mike boyfriend were going to move to New York City and buy an apartment like, and I'm not making this up, Carrie and Big have in the Sex and the City movie. What? Yeah, in Sex and the City 2 where they have that big, nice apartment. That's what they were going to get. Girl, I'm going to need you to get on Zillow and look at the prices and just have a reality check.

And they were going to be great parents. What? And because they'd have a nanny full time, so they'd still be able to do fun things like go out and all that. Go outside. Yeah. Like go outside for outside activities. Oh, my gosh. So the prosecution has this theory that, you know, Dahlia wants to kill Mike so that she could have all his money and all of his stuff and then go bang her ex-boyfriend.

so that she could have all his money and all of his stuff and then go bang her ex-boyfriend. So to prove this, a detective had to get up on the stand and read all these steamy text messages that Michael and Dahlia had sent to each other. And I don't think I've ever laughed out loud at a 2020 episode, but I did this time because they've got this very professional, nice-looking detective up on the stand and he has to say things like, Do you want my hot tight body all over you and love you so much i'm so horny for you baby i love you and i only want to fuck you so the prosecution showed all the footage of dahlia ordering the murder, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the defense was like, okay, all right.

You guys are all very confused about what's really going on here. Let's set the record straight. This whole thing was a hoax. Dahlia was acting the whole time. Why? She was acting when the police confronted her outside her condo. She was acting with the hitman. You see, this was all really just Mike DiPolito's idea because Mike and Dahlia set this whole thing up because they wanted to become reality TV stars.

Stop. What? Yes, and they thought that this would be the way to do it. It was a stunt. Oh, my gosh. It was a hoax. It was a ruse. I mean, I don't want to act like I wouldn't watch them on reality TV because I 100% would.

That is my level of intellect when it comes to television. But, no, that is, that's the best they could, I mean, I guess, what are you going to say? What are you going to say? This is really stupid, though. Yeah, it is stupid. I mean, that's the best they could, I mean, I guess, what are you going to say? What are you going to say? This is really stupid, though. Yeah, it is stupid. I mean, it's so ridiculous. So, so their whole thing was like, they pulled this wacky stunt in the hope that it would catch the attention of reality TV producers. Cops.

It did. It was cops, and they got their attention, and now they're famous. And now they're in big trouble. So are you ready for the evidence? Okay, yes. So they had someone come on the stand and be like, yes, you know, sometimes people will do wacky things to get fame, and it works. Then they had another person.

What? That was it? Well, that was one. That was just one expert witness that was one that was just one oh that was just one okay yeah you ready for another um then the defense called an expert witness who told the jury that dahlia had looked up reality tv casting calls on her computer one time i'm sure she did. Yeah. Yeah. So, for obvious reasons, everyone made fun of this defense. It was so deeply stupid. Yeah. So stupid.

Because, I mean, for a number of reasons, but one of them would be, okay, so the cops take you back to the station. They start accusing you. At what point wouldn't you be like, oh, my gosh, you guys, you know what? I'm sorry. Yeah. Right. I know he's alive. You know what? I'm sorry. Yeah. Right. I know he's alive. You know, this is just a hoax.

I mean, come on. Yes. In closing arguments, prosecutor Elizabeth Parker said Dahlia was like poisoned candy, attractive on the outside, but deadly on the inside. Oh, my. Oh. She later wrote a book about it and called it poison candy i bet she really liked that line she i could see that she's not just a good girl in a sundress yeah poison candy you think she's just this cute little girl but she's i'm missing you like candy mandy moore circa i don't know.

98? 97? I was thinking 01. Whatever. Fact check. Patty? No. The jury deliberated for three hours and found her guilty. Dahlia was sentenced to 20 years.

Afterward, Mike told the media that he was five thousand percent happy with her excellent mike but this story is far from over no because dahlia's legal team appealed on what grounds um and i'm with them on this They said that the jury at her trial had been improperly selected because her attorney had wanted to talk to every single juror about like how much they knew about this case from the media, because I guess they had like 50 or something people in there and they were like, okay, how many of you have heard about this case? And of course it was huge news.

So like half the people raised their hand and the attorney wanted to individually talk to them and say okay how much do you know but the judge was like no you can't do that so the appellate court was like hmm you know we kind of agree with you Dahlia you know her attorney should have been allowed to question all those jurors. She didn't get a fair trial, so she deserves a new one. Oh, my gosh. So, take two, Electric Boogaloo. Electric Boogaloo, indeed. It's 2015, and Dolly has got a brand new legal team. Brian Claypool and Mark Arglarsh.

Arglarsh. Arglarsh. Arglarsh. E-I-G-L-A-R-S-H. Eiglarsh. Eiglarsh. Eiglarsh. Sure. Let me tell you, these two guys, not afraid of the spotlight, not afraid of some bronzer.

Okay. Especially Brian. He is bronze. He's a bronze little cutie pie. So they immediately had Dahlia talk to the press for a little image rehab. And they were like, oh, yeah, that reality TV show defense from her first tryout, we're doubling down on it. That was good.

We're going to do that again. Wow. Yep. They claimed that Dahlia, Mike, and Muhammad all worked together on this big hoax. They wanted to create enough acting footage to splice together for a good youtube video that was the plan kyla it just got out of control kristin you know how much people can make off of youtube i know you and norm are rolling norm's whole career is based on a hoax that one time he put out a video about some video games and here we sit today in this mansion in this mansion that's right

in the sex in the city style apartment but mike was like well okay but like muhammad and i have never actually met so obviously we didn't collab for a youtube video but this was no time for the truth so now it's february of 2016 and Dahlia's new attorneys are trying to get her case thrown out at a pre-trial hearing. And Dahlia took the stand. Oh no she didn't. Oh it was wonderful. I loved it. Oh I should give a shout out. I listened to an episode of a podcast that I'd never listened to before. It's called Court Junkie and they had an episode on this and someone had said it was good and it had a lot of good stuff. So Dahlia takes a stand, and she's like,

yeah, this is all an acting project for social media. And the prosecutor was like, oh, okay, cool, cool, an acting project. Where was your script? Where were your notes? She's like, we didn't take the script with us. We looked at it. We didn't take it with us. And the guy was like, okay, but where is the script?

Do you have copies of it? Yeah, at the house. Where in your house? In the office. Where in your office? Oh, my gosh. On the computer. Where's your house? In the office. Where in your office? Oh, my gosh. On the computer. Where's that computer?

I don't know. My cat, I don't know where it is now. Oh, the police didn't take the computer? No, they didn't take the computer. Oh, no. So stupid. And he's like, okay, okay. So if this was all for TV, why weren't the camera angles better?

Because, you know, in all this footage, you know, it's hidden cameras and they're like in the back of the car so that hopefully she doesn't see them. So this prosecutor is like, if it's for TV, why didn't they put it in front of you so we can see your face better? And she's like, I wasn't the one taping it. I don't know. better and she's like i wasn't the one taping it i don't know so he's just like okay cool but your husband and your ex lover and you they were you were all super stoked about this acting project and you talked about it a ton she's like yes yes and he goes so do you have any texts about it because we know you guys texted a lot yeah so obviously you had to mention this in some texts and she's like we made a bunch of phone calls it was mainly phone calls i never mentioned it in a single text so so stupid her whole position was that this had been an

acting project but muhammad like a total dum-dum had gone to the police to make it more real but once she found out that he'd gone to the police she was like i'm out but then she and muhammad met at chili's well yeah all the things go down yes everything goes down in the neighborhood and he was wearing a wire but and this is true they did meet at the chilies we know this he was wearing a wire but according to the police the wire malfunctioned and you know the defense is of course saying yeah maybe it malfunctioned maybe they heard what was said and they destroyed the tape you know well that worked out well for the defense i mean well yeah because wait till you hear what happened at this meeting at Chili's.

Well, I'm sure it was revolutionary. You ready? Yeah. So, you know, Dahlia told him, hey, I don't want anything more to do with this acting project. And he was like, well, too bad. You have to. And then right there in the Chili's, he, boom, shows her his gun. He showed her his gun.

And she's like, oh, my God. gun he showed her his gun and she's like oh my god and so that's why she played along with this whole thing because she was in her life was in danger she knocked over that two for 20 like so the judge was like okay this this is stupid yeah i'm not dismissing this case. You need to go to trial. The defense also tried to get the trial moved out of Palm Beach County, which I don't blame them. But the judge was like, nope, you're staying here. So now it's December of 2016. And Dahlia's second trial began. This time, the prosecution didn't bother calling Mike DiPolito.

They also didn't call Muhammad. Instead, just my personal commentary, like a really lazy teacher when they didn't want to work, they like roll in the TV on the cart and then just roll the tape. So they just rolled the tapes. That was it. They didn't really, I mean, my personal opinion, I think they kind of phoned it in yeah the prosecution rested their case after like one day of testimony wow yeah the defense was like oh shit because i think they must have thought they had plenty of time but obviously they didn't so by this point they were like okay that reality TV show tactic doesn't seem to be working. We're going to try a new tactic. So they did. They focused on police misconduct.

They were like, these police officers were obsessed with being on cops. Okay. This was all about them looking good on TV? Yeah, I don't think this is bad at all. That's not a bad defense. And, you know, these cops, they tossed Dahlia under the bus. They could have cared less about her constitutional rights. This was all about having their good moment on TV.

So because the prosecution rested its case so quickly, the defense had to like scramble to get Muhammad to show up. So they called him and they were like, hey, we need you in this courtroom in like 30 minutes. And he was like, oh my God, okay. So he showed up in a white t-shirt and basketball shorts that's what i was gonna say he's probably in his own regifter recycled tank top yes he's not sitting around in a suit waiting for you know a defense attorney to call him so he told the jury that his experience with the police had been kind of shitty he said that when he originally went to the cops it was because he wanted them

to help Dahlia because he thought she was a victim of domestic abuse and he wanted them to help her but he'd been forced yeah so I'm kind of like I don't know I'm not really with him on this I can understand you go in for one reason but what do you expect the cops to do when you tell them she has tried to poison him before and now she wants a hit man do you think like he i hate to say it like this but he like was under her spell again like she got to him again and kind of talked him back into being on her side like she was trying to do with Michael. Yeah. Yeah.

I think she's super manipulative. Yeah. Yeah. But also, so was he, because what was he doing at that Chili's with that gun, right? That's right. Right? I mean, we know that was true. Flashing guns at Chili's.

So he said that he'd basically been forced to participate in this sting, and that he tried to back out, but they wouldn't let him, and they said that they would keep him anonymous, they didn't you know kind of shitty the defense also accused the police of losing the recordings of several phone calls between muhammad and dahlia they were like you know the cops fucked up in several instances they didn't follow protocol and it was all because again they wanted to look good on cops in closing arguments dahlia's attorney said give dahlia her freedom let her go back to her infant son and everyone was like right because she'd been under house arrest this whole time

no one really knew that she'd had a baby so okay she'd been living with her mom this whole time but apparently a repairman came to the house one day straight up some porn style yes and one thing led to another bada bing bada boom dahlia had a baby oh my gosh and they intentionally saved that nugget till the end what do you think the jury thought? I mean, this was a better defense than the first trial. Definitely. Not that the bar was very high. Right.

I still think they found her guilty. What? They deadlocked. It was a mistrial. It was a mistrial. What? Yes, it was a mistrial. Oh, a mistrial. What? Yes, it was a mistrial. Oh, my gosh.

So, this was not over. The prosecution was like, okay, third time's a charm. And in June of 2017, they tried her again. This time, the prosecution was like, hey, let's not fuck up. So, they scrapped the strategy that hadn't worked in the second trial, and they went with the strategy that had been used in the first trial. Why didn't they use that again? I don't know.

But anyway, I bet they just felt like Mike, because of his sketchy past, he was kind of a risk. Muhammad, you could get him on the stand. Maybe he might say anything. We don't know. So we just stick with the tapes. But you kind of have to hear from the victim. Anyway, so they put Mike back up on the stand. He did a lovely job, but the defense did a pretty good job, too. At one point, they put Superbuff Sergeant Frank Ramsey on the stand, and Frank was the guy who delivered the bad news to Dahlia that her husband was fake dead.

And he gave, I think, some pretty damning testimony about how the investigation was handled. I think some pretty damning testimony about how the investigation was handled. He said that the police department had made some serious mistakes. He thought that Muhammad hadn't been credible and that I hadn't thought of this. He was basically like, you know, it was pretty crazy that Mike DiPolito's life had been in danger for days. Police knew about it, but they didn't let Mike know until like the morning of his fake death. Yeah. Which, yeah, I mean, shouldn't they let you know immediately? Yeah.

Unless they're like. They want the cops. That's a lot of it. Yeah. Unless they're like so obsessed with how they look on this stupid episode of cops. Anyway, he said he also didn't want cops there to be filming the whole thing. And his supervisors were like, you know, too bad. This time, the jury went into deliberation for 90 whole minutes.

Oh, my. And they found her guilty. Yeah. Yeah. Dahlia was sentenced to 16 years behind bar. Behind bar. Girl, I'll sentenced to 16 years behind bar. Behind bar. Girl, I'll go to that bar, too. What do they serve in?

Dahlia's attorneys, of course, appealed. And they tried to take this case all the way to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court was like, no. No, honey. Go home. These days, according to 2020, Mike is doing well. He's engaged to someone new.

She's super hot. I hope these people don't mind that I'm saying this. Did you look them up on social media? No, they were on 2020 together. I mean, I still probably wouldn't look them up. You know they're proud. Oh, they're on Instagram with some great filters, great photos, great life.

To my knowledge, she has not tried to kill him. So she seems like a winner. I hope they're happy together. And that, my friends, is the fairy tale love story of Dahlia and Mike DiPolito. Oh, my gosh. I loved it. Twists and turns. Oh, I love a murder for hire story because it's

like no one gets hurt. Yes. It's always stupid. You know, it's always funny. That's so true. That's so true. Three trials. I could not believe it. No, I thought that was a one and done for sure. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I'm about to pee my pants right now. I'm about to pee too., I thought that was a one and done for sure. 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm about to pee my pants right now. I'm about to pee too. Okay, let's take a pee break and I've got to throw my hair up. I'm like, steamy. Any words of sisterly wisdom or advice before I do this? No, you're going to do fine. Okay. Alright, you ready? Yes. Okay.

When Brandy's away, the Pitt sisters will play. It's museum heist time, baby. Sorry, Brandy. Okay, so when Kristen asked me to be on the podcast with her, I was very excited, and I was immediately like, great, now I'm going to do one of the stories that I keep telling this girl she needs to do and she never does. I'm going to come one of the stories that I keep telling this girl she needs to do and she never does.

I'm going to come on the podcast and do it myself. And my mom was excited because it's one that she has also. You and mom are both like, you should do this case. Why haven't you done this case? I know. Why haven't you done this case? It's not naggy at all. It's very loving, very supportive.

Love it. Very supportive. Okay. very supportive very supportive okay so straight off the top i want to give a shout out to this really um niche small podcast called this american life what yeah huh yeah okay but for real this is not a joke do you remember the one time that i i cited this this american life on the podcast and brain was like i've never heard of it i i'm like what are you under a rock i wondered i wonder about that i do wonder about that okay so this is pretty much me retelling this american life episode 654 the feather heist okay so i want to tell you about

a guy named kirk johnson he is really amazing guy. He did some rebuilding projects in Iraq through USAID. And he's a very accomplished man. And he got laws changed because he was seeing that these Iraqis were working with the U.S. Army and then were being killed and tortured by fellow Iraqis. And then when they would apply for asylum in the United States, the U.S. would turn them down. And so he got all these laws changed. Right. I'm not going to tell you about any of that cool stuff.

I'm going to tell you about something else about this man. So when he came back to the U.S., he went on this fishing expedition with a buddy. He's like not a fisherman, but his buddy goes fly fishing. So they go out fly fishing together. So when he opened his buddy's tackle box he saw this super bright and colorful tie fly like fly tie one of the lures and he said it looks like it looked like a moth-sized peacock or like an impressionist's dream of an insect it just really caught his eye and he was like what the heck what is this that this is amazing the stuff we're fishing with is like grays and browns and he said

it's specifically for catching salmon and that actually you know hey in 2009 some kid that plays the flute over in london stole a million dollars worth of rare and exotic feathers from birds specifically for tying these kind of flies. Wait, stole the feathers from birds? What? He stole he went up to them in their nests

and he plucked them. That's just mean. Like candy from a you know how they say like candy from a baby? It's like taking from a bird it's like a feather from a bird the christian that was supposed to be a really really dramatic moment okay no he stole them from britain's natural history museum oh he stole these birds for the purposes of fly tying wow is this not a fishing podcast i thought this was a fishing podcast so kirk johnson was immediately fascinated he's like what the hell some flute playing kid

steals birds from a natural history museum so he studied up on some internet forums about fly tires, these guys who make these lures. And he even went in his research to the 21st Annual Special Fly Tying Convention of New Jersey. You've been there, Kristen. You know. So Kirk, you know, he's doing this research about this story that he thinks is so fascinating about this guy who's pulled off, who did this heist. So he's trying to be real natural and cool among these convention. But he didn't pull off the heist. Right.

I mean, he obviously got caught. Eventually. Yeah. Eventually. Wow. I'm just saying he's not that cool. Well, he kind of figured, like, these guys were going to be a little bit pissed about this kid coming and staining the good name of all the fly tires in their distinguished fly tying community. Sure. So he's asking this guy how he feels about it.

And the guy looks at him really seriously. And he's like, I don't think you want to write that story because we're a small tight-knit community and you do not want to piss us off oh we got a badass on our hands which obviously he's like okay i gotta know more now like i've got to know more about this so kirk went on to interview 50 fly tires and he spent three years trying to get it. May I interrupt you? Yeah. This is reminding me.

I don't know if I ever told you this. When I lived in Elizabeth City, this was before I met Norman, like right before I met Norman, there was this guy who had a crush on me who I was not interested in. And so, you know, I told him, like, nah. And then his friend came up to me one day when i was walking peanut and was like just so you know this is a really small town and so and so is a pretty big deal around here it was the weirdest it was the weirdest thing was that what was the intent of that to make you feel bad for turning him down or i'm not sure what it was. I'm not sure if it was like you were going to be pissed at you.

I'm not sure if it was like, you better go date my friend. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was really weird. You know what? It's like if your mom, if somebody who's not cool at school wants to have a play date with you, and you're like, I don't want to go have a play date with them. And then your mom's like, no, you have to.

You have to. That kid's really important in this town yeah you gotta go do it you got to so so kirk goes on to interview these 50 fly tires and he spends three years trying to get an interview with edwin the guy who pulled off this heist so let me tell you a little bit about the birds that were stolen so they were collected in the mid-1800s by a guy named alfred russell wallace which is three first names i know you guys like the multiple first names jonathan taylor thomas that's right he's the jtt of birds okay he's he's like the dar of birds, actually, like you spend all this time in remote islands and remote locations, wilderness, jungle. It sounds terrible if you ask me to study these birds.

OK. And at one point he actually contracted malaria. He was incredibly sick. And so he's in his bed thinking he's about to die. And he has this eureka moment in a fever dream where he figures out evolution through natural selection all on his own he like figures this out okay he gets up the next day he writes a letter to charles darwin no about it yes it had not been published like or anything he writes a letter to darwin and is like look this came to me last night it's crazy and darwin was like you know what i'd been thinking that same thing but i was too afraid to say it uh-huh and then darwin went on and published it i don't know i don't know i'm

just saying yeah so all your great ideas i I was just thinking that. That's right. That's right. So these birds in the museum are really, really important. And I don't think I can honestly fully understand their importance. Well, you'd better. You're going to talk about it on this podcast. On this fact-based podcast. So, but apparently they're like early evidence of evolutionary theory.

They inform scientists on climate change. And this is the part that I was really like, what? So but apparently they're like early evidence of evolutionary theory. They inform scientists on climate change. And this is the part that I was really like, what? They are even used to scientifically measure the way we perceive color. I don't know. I'm like science. Yo, scientists are still using them, though, in their research. And what is kind of, I believe, journalists and writers and everything, they call it foreshadowing.

But Wallace, he even said, it's best if people from the West never see these birds because they'll just plunder them. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. So then, you know, it's the 1800s and the fashion industry comes along. Oh, no. Uh-huh. And, you know, imagine the hats of the 1800s you know you got feathers in them and if you're super rich you got a whole freaking bird mounted

on there you know and they're just gaudy as all get out and so this really of course impacted the bird population but then the other thing so that was for the ladies right but for the dudes they had these exclusive fishing clubs where they all like got together and fish and they all had their own special lures their own special ties that they did every single one and the way they made them it was called a recipe you had to follow the recipe very specifically. So and some of these feathers were more expensive than gold, literally more expensive than gold. It's crazy. So the big thing is that nowadays in the fly tying community, they use these same recipes that the guys did in their exclusive fishing clubs. And just as a side note, kind of as I was listening to this podcast episode, you just get such a sense of like what an old boys club it all is. I mean, it's like a rich white dude.

Love it. We don't have enough of those. I know. Right. So it's just like you could. It smacks of the entitlement. So, you know, they say these fly tires are like well you can use the the fake feathers but it's not the same but basically the historical authenticity is super important to

these guys and on the podcast episode they even consider it like they call it like the civil war reenactment oh god i know i know so nowadays the flies aren't used for fishing. It's just for display. And of course, like these birds are all endangered or extinct right now. And it's illegal to do anything with these birds. But our buddy Kirk said he had never in his life seen any group of people more willing to break international law for a hobby. Wow. Now, quick break. international law for a hobby wow now quick break like did you have any idea about that people were out there breaking international laws for freaking fishing well i'm part of the old boys club i was

this is one of my many passions open the closet door just all these feathers all of all of kiki's uh kitten toys are just all the cat toys are very rare birds some people say it's cruel i just don't care yeah civil war reenactment my hobby that's right so now i want to tell you a little bit about edwin wrist who is the guy who for some length of time pulled this off so edwin is from albany new york and he was homeschooled and his parents were journalists. And when he was about 10 years old, his parents like covered some story on fly fishing and he got to, you know, it's just now occurring to me that I literally did not think of before. So he his his parents were researching this story. So he watched a video on the story.

OK, what does that make you think of from our childhood? Oh, my God. Sex ed. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. That was terrible. So our mom spent a year as a school nurse.

And then it was like as her own, like, summer education for us. I remember the story was watch these videos with me to help me decide which grade. Yeah, which are the best sex ed videos. So, you guys, we had to spend, how many sex ed videos do we have to watch? I don't know. So many. I'm permanently messed up. It's just so messed up.

But honestly, that hadn't occurred to me until I was reading this and I was like, oh my God, this is the same thing. So anyway, he like took to it immediately. He became super obsessed and like studied under this guy, Muzzy, you know. I'm sure you know Muzzy from the book. My good friend Muzzy. Your good friend Muzzy. So here's the deal. Here's the, I think, important thing to know about this time is that at 16, he was a legend, basically.

Like he got really really good but of course like any 16 year old he's not flushed with cash and so despite being really really good at this craft he was limited by his money so he had to steal right yeah i totally understand you totally get it well so here's the other thing I'll say about this that as I was listening to this episode is it smacks a little bit of the affluenza. Like just a little bit of like feel a little bit bad for this guy. So there's a little bit of that. Does this end with dominoes? Dominoes?

Oh, the other one. That's how they cut the affluenza. Kristen, only if we order domino's does this end with Domino's. So I think you know what we need to do. So when Edwin was 20, he was in London studying music. Okay. And that was also something like he was super devoted to in addition to fly tying. It's what he's still doing to this day.

And yes, I did look him up on social media. Oh, okay. Yes, yes. He's still doing that. So this fellow fly tier said, like you're in london while you're there you've got to get up to the museum of natural history and treeing you've got to see this special bird collection but just so you know you can only see it if you have legitimate research, it's not like a regular exhibit that you just get to go see. So now what is unclear if he went initially to case the place or if he went initially just to see the birds.

And then he was so inspired that oopsies, he cased the place. Oopsies. Yeah. So he says he didn't case the place but after he went like he had taken a bunch of pictures while he was there hey who are we to question this adorable adorable white guy flute playing yeah yes yes yes so he called them and he said hey my friend is doing you know his his dissertation for his PhD, and he needs me to come and take pictures of these birds.

Right. And they didn't think anything of it. So they agreed to have him come. So he goes. He signed his own name in the logbook when he went. White guys. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So he goes.

He basically either cases the place or he doesn't case the place. You make your own decision. But when he goes back home, he starts a document on his computer called Plan for Museum Invasion. No. Yes. I mean, why not just admit you cased the place? I know. It's like, why? Why?

So it's June 23rd, 2009. He just played a concert at his university he got on a train this is what he has with him for his museum heist okay a pair of latex gloves he took from his doctor's office didn't even go by no no no no no save money led light an empty suitcase and a glass cutter so he gets there. He clips the barbed wire to get to the window where he's going to use the glass cutter, right? So he's like shimmied up there or whatever. And he reaches in his bag to get the glass cutter. Oh, shoot.

Don't you know, he dropped his glass cutter down somewhere else. So at this point, what would you do? If that happened to you point what would you do if that happened to you what would you do well i mean either you break the glass which seems like a mess or you just like i'll i'll do this another day so what you do is you get a big fucking rock right and that's what he did he just threw the huge rock of course an alarm is triggered yeah of course you know i'm sure he expected that and it's a little bit fuzzy at this point because there was a security guard. Oh, gosh. And he's like, I went around and I saw these museum security guards.

I know. Let me tell you, they never think anything is going to happen. All of a sudden it does. And they're like, that was probably a false alarm. Exactly. And so Edwin says that there was a big soccer match that night. And the security guard later on was like, I don't even watch soccer. I was like, whatever.

It's not America. In America, you can say I don't even watch soccer. Nope. England, no, you can't say that. So he was in there undetected for at least an hour. And his plan was that he was just going to take, Kristen, he was just going to take the best smidge of each specimen. But here's the problem.

His LED light was like, beep, beep, beep, beep, little LED light. Like maybe one of those pocket little ones you got when you were a kid. So he couldn't tell what the quality was. So what did he have to do? Had to take them all. Got to catch them all. Even in one species, he took 47 out of 48 of them. And when they asked him why he didn't take the 48th, he said, well, it was wedged back in there.

I must just not have seen it. What a douche. What a douche. So anyway, he rushes back to the train station. He's got a suitcase full of a million dollars of dead birds, if you can imagine such a thing. He missed the last train to London. imagine such a thing he missed the last train to london and so he has to stay on the platform overnight with this million dollar bag so museum security gets there the in the morning and they call the cops because they're like oh could have been a break-in so the first what do you mean

museum security gets there in the morning well i guess the shift changes and they're like hey dip shit yeah yeah so they go and they look for all the famous things that could be missing yeah and they're like they're all here they're all here they even look for darwin's finches yeah but darwin's finches aren't used for fly tying so they left he left those on it took 30 we all know as we all know yes it took 35 days for them to realize that no yes that stuff was gone they thought that someone just broke a window and didn't take anything yeah i think they just thought it was like somebody hurled a rock in the window and you know nobody took anything or went in there and walked around and then left so if he'd used the glass cutters they

might have realized it sooner you think because maybe it would have looked more sophisticated yeah maybe i could see that i could see that so at this point it's been 35 days so they go to look at the public access cameras to go to look at all the cameras but the cameras reset every 28 days so there's no look i'm so annoyed yes i know so something interesting to know here back in world war one okay hold on yes so they they go and look and they don't see anything's missing but they don't just like take the however many minutes just roll through the footage like maybe they didn't have killed them? Maybe they didn't have... They must not have...

I thought this is 2009. Like, you don't have video footage of inside the museum in 2009? That seems bizarre. Well, even outside the museum, like, you would have seen someone coming in and leaving with a suitcase. But you know what?

I think it was that they did have... I think it was that they did have internal cameras, but still all the cameras must have reset after 28 days. Yeah, but saying like the next day when the shift changes oh that you should have done yeah yes you're absolutely right you're absolutely right i should go be a museum security i would take my job so seriously you would i would suspect everyone no all the little old ladies just trying to look at the art coming around with a tote bag gtfo lady so here's something that i thought was kind of interesting that i wanted to to tell you

so back in it was world war ii back in world war ii bombs are coming down in london and the curators at that museum bundled up all the bird specimens in london while you know these bombs are falling and that's why they're in the Tring and not in London. And later on, when all of this was solved, a curator would say the bird survived Hitler, but not Edwin Rist. Oh, I know. I know. I know.

So anyway, there's no physical evidence at the scene. But what's funny is if they had looked at their log, their log book, they would have seen Edwin wrist. They could have Googled him and saw that he was selling those feathers at Edwin wrist.com or on eBay at flute player, 1988. No. Yes. So eventually,

uh, I think about a year later, a fly tire from the Netherlands reached out to the tring and said hey like i think hey dum-dum i think this is your guy and when police made entry into the home shout out brandy edwin confessed immediately and then i want to picture yourself in this situation he brought police into the bedroom where his girlfriend was still sleeping. No. Can you imagine?

This dude's a douche. I don't like him. Yeah. And I like there's stuff that comes out about him later on that, you know, there's some stuff going on with him. But yes. So can you imagine that like you're sleeping and all of a sudden the police are in there? So we're going to go into the court court stuff which is pretty brief for what i have um do you know the name of this let's go fishing i believe this let's go fishing so the case went

right to sentencing because edwin yeah he was like i did it so he would get up to 10 years for burglary and 14 years for selling stolen goods but edwin's lawyers brought in a psychologist and this is kind of the piece that i think is a little bit more interesting that who diagnosed him with asperger's which okay i don't know a lot about asperger's but i do know that you know incredibly intelligent and super focused on like certain interests and certain hobbies um the judge called it a natural history disaster of epic proportions yeah and um but ultimately there had been a precedent in asperger's cases in britain like um shout out to to britain because i they seem to be doing a lot more with looking at mental health diagnoses and all of that than than what we're doing bad at

catching museum yeah breakers exactly so i couldn't figure out exactly what the precedent was i did see that theresa may didn't let the u.s extradite somebody who had asperger's who had hacked nasa and so i thought, maybe that's it. I don't know. But anyway, there's a precedent. And so in the end, he got either, depends on where you look, there are multiple things, but he got one year suspended and a financial penalty in U.S. dollars, $155,000, in U.S. dollars, $155,000,

which was what they determined he probably had gotten so far off of eBay. Basically, he had no time behind bars and he had some probation. So there were 299 birds stolen, okay? A third of them came back unscathed. He hadn't done anything with them yet. A third of them were back unscathed. He hadn't done anything with them yet. A third of them were compromised in some way. They so all of them had these what were called bio tags, which were super important.

It had Alfred Russell Wallace's like handwritten notes. And it was what proved them to be like, I don't know, pure and scientific and whatever. Yeah. And the other third just had not come back so some were sold but certainly not all of them were sold like where were they this is what our buddy kirk remember from the beginning this is what he was obsessed with oh so all these all these people have these feathers yes and they love them and they don't want to give them up. So they don't want him getting into this story for that reason. My God.

Yes. That's why that initial guy was like, we're a tight knit community and you don't want to piss us off because we got feathers that we really like. Yes. No, exactly. So Kirk spent three years trying to get an interview with Edwin Rist. And finally, Edwin agreed. He lived in Dusseldorf. He's a professional musician.

He got this interview to be set up in his hotel room. And Kirk's wife was like, look, you don't know about this guy, OK? Like, he could be a shady character. So they got some German security guard while they were there. And of course, Edwin's just some scrawny dude. He'swny little flute player who stole some feathers yeah exactly exactly so in the in the interview this was really interesting edwin says he didn't really think that the museum kept accurate numbers and so they didn't really know what was missing or how much was missing so then your boy kirk pulls out the receipts he said this is the

documentation from the museum this is how like he just showed him the documentation and Edwin agrees that it was really thorough so I'm going to kind of do a little dialogue for you so Kirk said if this is accurate where are they yeah Edwin if has them, I don't know about it. Kirk, aren't you the person most uniquely positioned to answer that? Edwin, in what sense? Kirk, you're the one who took them. And Edwin gives some kind of long winded response. And then he says, I don't have them fundamentally.

What? Yeah. Hmm. What? says i don't have them fundamentally what yeah hmm what so what kirk did find out was that a number of customers returned the feathers you know once they kind of figured it out the museum and the museum you know also poor museum they're getting all these feathers they had to literally calculate how many feathers equaled one bird and after they they did all that, 64 birds were missing. Now, mind you, it's still not the same. Like, you get a bunch of random feathers when before there had been one bird,

or as they call it, a skin. It had been one skin. Blah, blah, blah. But Edwin's father even reimbursed some of those customers who returned the feathers to the museum. He, like, paid out of pocket thousands of dollars. As he should.

I'm sorry. As he should. But that was Edwin's dad that wasn't edwin yeah but you know edwin got like no punishment yeah so you know somebody's gotta give something and if it has to be his family it has to be his family yeah yeah okay so because i'm sure that looked good in court that his dad was so willing to fork over money for for his son's mistakes it's so interesting it makes you wonder like okay if that had been tried in the states oh what would have happened and also of course it's like we'll put a boot up your ass for the red white and blue well the other thing is like this fly fishing and fly tying is such a white old boys club thing.

And it's like, my gosh, a person of color. Forget about it. Forget about it. So what about these remaining 64 birds? Like where the hell were they? Well, they weren't with Edwin fundamentally. Fundamentally, we do know that. So Kirk discovered another user on these sites because he's like studying these fly tying

forums all of that another user named goku had posted birds that were obviously from edwin's stash who was goku was this another username that edwin would had come up with and was secretly using after his trial was concluded was this an accomplice kirk was like obsessed so kirk met with an ornithologist at yale he's a head curator at the peabody museum who was also like equally enraged about the heist and had more of the ornithology background on this so together they look at edwin's website they figure it all out and they narrow in on this guy named Long Wen, who is exactly Edwin's age. He lives in Norway. And there are even pictures of Long Wen and Edwin Rist on Facebook together in Japan.

And after they were in Japan together, Goku is posting these feathers for sale. OK. So Kirk reaches out to Long and long agreed to an interview so now kirk had to go to this guy's house who had graciously agreed to an interview and try to get him to admit that he'd like done something illegal it was really you know how do i navigate this situation so he gets there you know he's certainly not I think Kirk was wondering if he was gonna find some like really suave manipulative guy that was maybe the brains behind what Edwin was doing or whatnot but it was clearly not it was like some guy in his 20s and

Chuck Taylor's he had come he was Vietnamese family's Vietnamese, and came to Norway as refugees in the 70s. And as a kid, Long had really looked up to Edwin because he got these fly tying magazines. And he's like, wow, look at this kid. And Long didn't have a lot of friends growing up, but he liked to fly tie. And so it's like he kind of had this imagined kinship. Oh, God. I know, this imagined kinship with this guy so after nearly a day of interviewing long admitted that edwin reached out to him to sell these things and edwin said that he just kind of found these things he made up these stories about how they had come

into his possession and long never stopped to think about how implausible it all was i don't know whether to believe that or not yeah but he felt really flattered that edwin was paying attention to him basically yeah so but during this interview kirk did grow kind of suspicious of long because kirk's asking some pretty basic questions like, well, so who got the money? Did the money come to you? Did the money come to Edwin? And Long's like, I don't remember. Oh, come on.

And it's like, this is thousands of dollars. You don't remember if the thousands of dollars came to you versus to Edwin. So when he asked if Long still had any of the skins, he said, you know, I don't know. A tiny part of them were sold through me, others through Edwin. And he says he didn't know where any of them were. So Kirk left Long's house that day, kind of feeling bad for Long, but also feeling really frustrated. He felt like Long was holding something back. So he gets up the next morning and he's in the hotel lobby getting ready to have breakfast.

And who is there but Long in the hotel lobby? And Long said, look, I've been thinking about it and I've got to stop tying flies with exotic birds. And I'm scared to do that because I'm not going to have any friends after I choose to do that. So they spend the next two days just kind of hanging out, getting to know each other and talking. And they even met one morning in front of the National Gallery, which is where the scream was. I remember the episode. So anyway, they'd hung out for a couple of days and Kirk got bolder and bolder and he pushed Longmore. And he just straight up asked.

And so one of these rare birds is the Indian crow. more and he just straight up asked and so one of these rare birds is the indian crow yeah so he just goes look you have a lot of the indian crow and finally long just said i still have some of the packages that i was supposed to sell oh after edwin was arrested long sent back the skins so sent back the full birds but he kept the feathers and as long as saying this he's like miserable as he's saying this he says i've got probably between 600 there were probably between 600 800 feathers but now i probably only have a hundred left and kirk just said i mean kirk's a baller he just said you have to show me these things yeah and long started crying and said i've never admitted this to anyone not even my family they they end up going back to his house and getting this binder it kind of looked like a stamp

collection book i guess and they go to a bar and here is kirk after literally years of research and trying to find literally these exact feathers from these exact birds and now they're sitting in front of him in a bar in norway in a bar in norway exactly so they were able to track down some additional sales with long's cooperation of like this is where they went so you know a couple of the birds there was a buyer in south africa he's not interested in returning them to the museum. He cannot be bothered. Others were sold to a guy in Montreal who said he's since sold them off. He doesn't have them anymore. Sure. So that leaves 32 unaccounted for birds. And of the 191 that have come back to the museum, 101 still have their tags. So that's a positive thing. They still have their bio tags so kind of to conclude

in kirk's view everyone should return these feathers these birds he said it would be a moral victory these birds are not for the fly tying community they are for the museum and there are two choices either keeping them or giving them back and they should give them back and so with the tring's blessing kirk went on that fly tying forum and said hey look the tring is ready to accept any anonymous returns without pressing charges or asking questions and 40 members of the fly tying forum asked the moderator to delete the post and that is the case of the feather heist those douches no yes and so yeah to to end with alpha alfred russell wallace's quote all living things were not made for man yeah yeah oh that was good It's a good one.

So Edwin, he wanted to buy, believe it or not, a golden flute. That was what he wanted to be able to do these fly tying. He wanted to buy a golden flute, just like we all do. We wanted the Barbie Jeep when we were growing up and the golden flute. Edwin wants the golden flute. Absolutely. Who can blame him? Oh, my gosh.

I play mine all the time. Put on some jazz flute in the background of this. Alright, Kyla. The time has come for one and all to answer questions from the Discord. Do you want me to pull it up on my phone too so I can see

them? Oh, it doesn't matter. Oh, and Margaret, how dare you? She asks Kyla PZ, what's it like being the better sister? Oh, no. Margaret, shots fired by Anne Margaret. You know, Kristen is really, I mean, Kristen's the better sister. Absolutely.

I was thinking earlier today about Mrs. Dupree in sixth grade and what she wrote on your report card. What'd she write? sixth grade and what she wrote on your report card what'd she write she wrote something like she it was so funny that in sixth grade she had such an insight into people and to kids yeah and she was basically you know for the listeners like Kristen you were a quiet kid oh super quiet super quiet super shy and I don't think people would necessarily think that about you now and so because i sat home alone with like one other person and talking to a microphone but mrs dupree was basically like kristin is really special and like she is going to become something really amazing like she saw this trajectory that you were on and so that's why

Kristen's the best I don't know I was thinking about that you're gonna make me cry I loved Mrs. Dupree yeah she was wonderful no she okay now now that you say that I remember she said some girls peak in middle school some girls peak in high school she's going to peak much later oh gosh i miss her i know i don't think she's around anymore no i think she i think she had cancer but just to make you guys laugh she wore these big fake earrings and then her phone would ring and she'd take off one of her clip-ons to talk on the phone because that's how big and gaudy they were that she couldn't yeah couldn't hold the phone to him and then she'd forget she had her clip-ons to talk on the phone because that's how big and gaudy they were that she couldn't talk on the phone. Yeah, couldn't hold the phone to him. And then she'd forget

she had her clip-on off and then she'd just like walk around with one earring in. But she was a hoot. She was the best. Yeah, Brandy had her. So Brandy was in that class with me. What did she write in your report card? See, that's the thing is that I wish I would have... Nothing memorable. Nothing memorable. Kyla peaked in elementary school.

Kyla peaked years ago. There's no potential left. Take her out to pasture. No. Kyla is great. I mean, you don't need to do a back and forth. Let's go to the next question. Let's see.

Oh, Old Timey Disclaimer wants to know, which one of you got into the most trouble growing up? I mean, probably me. I was more sneaky. Kristen was just more sneaky about it. Yeah. I mean, we just had different. Different styles. Different styles, different people.

Like, I was, I would sneak out sometimes. I would sneak out. And Kristen did not do that. I didn't have the nuts to sneak out. No nuts. But what Kristen did is, I remember on a previous episode, you were like, I was sneaking food. sneak out sometimes i would sneak out and kristin did not do that i didn't have the nuts no nuts but what kristin did is i remember on a previous episode you were like i was sneaking food so okay kristin's sneaking food in elementary school and like i snuck out in high school

yeah but like i hid my report cards yes kristin yeah which that's that'll bite you in the ass when it's time to apply to college just you know like a psa tip but look at her now take a look at me now oh maya superfly wants to know omg hilarious i cannot wait most embarrassing story you have of each other or a parent oh well we have so many ones of parents i Dad, yeah. I knew that somebody was going to ask for an embarrassing story on you from childhood. Oh, God. Kristen, I could not. And I have been racking my brain for days. Oh, I'm so embarrassing.

But like. Yeah, I can't think of anything because I'm really great. Yeah, but I mean, I could not think of any super embarrassing. Let's think of embarrassing ones on dad. Oh, well, OK. I always think about and I wasn't even there. You were out to eat in Boston. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So this was I don't know, maybe sophomore year of college. Mom and dad came up to visit me and like they'd just gotten in. I took them to this Thai restaurant. It was like a little Thai restaurant, but it was, you know, there were people in there,

you know, and dad was wearing a sweatshirt with a t-shirt underneath and which is like his outfit of choice, you know, because he needed to impress because he was out in the big city. Oh, yeah. So I guess he got a little hot in the restaurant. So he starts to take off his sweatshirt. So he's on one side. So mom and I are on like the booth side. He's on just the chair side.

I can't even look. I can't even look. I'm like covering my face. He's trying to shimmy out of his sweatshirt because he's getting so hot. Well, he didn't realize that his T-shirt was stuck. So he was showing his hairy nipples to everyone in this Thai restaurant. Whole nips. And mom was so embarrassed.

But she made it worse because she's like trying to dive over the table. And she's going, Daryl, Daryl, Daryl. And then I pulled down his shirt. She's like trying to dive over the table and she's going, Daryl, Daryl, Daryl. But the thing I remember about that story was afterward, I was so embarrassed and I called you. And I was like, Kyla, I went to a Thai restaurant with mom and dad. We got in. Dad was wearing a sweatshirt with a t-shirt underneath and that's all i said you were like i know what happened dad showed his nipples to him oh my god oh hunter wants to know if you had been boys what were your names going to be do you know what yours

i feel like you were going to be daniel and then you weren't a boy so then i was going to be daniel right and then you i wasn't a boy except for when we were growing up and we would like at christmas time we were little we would do the nativity stuff kristin would say i'd be mary you'd be joseph so i always i always had to be the boy growing up it was so fun to be a little older. I could make you do all the things I didn't want to do. I was very happy-go-lucky. I was just like, cool, let's do it. But the problem was you were smarter than me. So at a certain point, I remember your intelligence surpassed mine.

That's when I peaked, guys. That's when I peaked. No, that's a true story. It sounds like I'm being modest. No, but, like, really, like, you got smarter. I remember it was, like, when you were, like, I feel like five or six. I was like, oh, shit, I can't push her around. Now you've got to be Joseph 50% of the time.

Yep. Keep it equal. C1 Iggy wants to know, we need the birth date for London. Oh, it was Thursday? No. It was 6-19, folks. Oh. Now that Thursday? No, it was 619. Oh, now that's another date for Brandy to remember. And so happens on the podcast.

Yes. We had we had everyone on Patreon do a little poll and vote. But yeah, 619. It's a whole story. We won't we won't let Brandy tell it herself. But basically, she is amazing. And last night, so last night we were in the trivia finals. I know you guys have heard Brandy and Kristen talk about how it's like the only entertainment that we've had this whole time.

So we're in the trivia finals. And Brandy, like days after giving birth, we had texted her and David and said, you do not need to participate in this. We're just sending you the invitation. Yeah. And they were there. And Brandy had little London and she's just such a sweet little nugget. London is beautiful. Yes.

Beautiful. Should I tell them what I thought? Yes. So, so like I, I think, you know, London had been born for like a couple of days. And so I made, you know, chili and cornbread and a fruit tart and all this stuff to take over to them. And we walked into the house and I walked in first and I didn't see the baby. I just assumed the baby was in the nursery. So I just was like, hey, guys. And then I went and carried the fruit tart into the kitchen.

And I saw Norm like kind of hung back and he goes is that the baby and I came back in and Brandy's you know sitting there smiling and right next to her is I swear a baby doll like it was so tiny and she was. She looked like a perfect little doll. And I really did not think it was a baby. I said last night, I was like, yeah, so it's just one of Brandy's creepy porcelain dolls? I was like, what did you think was happening? That's what Brandy was like. Brandy was like, for real, what would you do if I went to the hospital, came back days later, and I had a baby doll?

Oh, my God. It would be like, we got to check you in somewhere. I don't know where, but we're going to get you the help you need. Gadriel wants to know, Kyla, how many times did you listen to the podcast and think, psh, I could do that. And were you right? I think the listeners will be the judge of that. You did great. I think my thought was like, I'm not going to be Brandy,

but if I can come on one episode and people will be like, I can do that for one episode. Like, I'm good. I think if I can be that kind of filler, that's good for me. You know, I love listening to the podcast. I listen to it every Wednesday. Oh, yeah. I listen to it.

So I'm talking back to the podcast. I listen to it every Wednesday. Oh, yeah, I listen to it. So I'm talking back to the podcast constantly. You know, when you guys are talking about memories, or you're trying to remember something, I'm screaming at my phone what it is. And then I text you later. And I'm like, Hello. So no, I think I love listening to the podcast. Because like, I love your humor. And so it's the best podcast ever. Better than This American Life. Yeah. Yeah. That small little podcast. But yeah. So when Kristen asked me, I was like, oh, my God. Yes, I'll do it. I'll do it. It has been fun. Should we tell them what mom said? Yes. So I talked to my parents today and my mom was like, well, are you worried that, you know, without Brandy there, people will be like, oh, I'm not even going to listen to this.

And didn't you say like they're like, oh, Brandy's maybe not coming back for a while. Like, I'm just done with the podcast. It's like so she's insulting Kristen and me. It's like an insult to both children. And goodbye podcast forever. Downward trajectory. That's right. This is your peak. Like Mrs. Dupree said, it's that's right this is your peak like mrs dupree said it's right now this is my peak dawn of 952 wants to know what does kyla think of kristin's true crime obsession i mean same yeah you're like you're in the exact same boat

same z's twinsies we were in the same house watching Cops and America's Most Wanted on Friday nights. And Date One in 2020. So, I mean, it's the same. Like, when we went My Favorite Murderer together when they were live, when you thought to yourself, like, I could do this, Brandi, and I could do this. Yeah. And so, I mean, it's basically just, like, same. Now, I think you watch more of the American Greed type stuff than I do. But, yeah, I'm somewhere between you and Brandi. Okay. Yeah. Same. Now, I think you watch more of the American Greed type stuff than I do. But, yeah, I'm somewhere between you and Brandy.

Okay. Yeah. Lady in Blonde wants to know, tell us a story about the kind of mischief you two used to get into when you were kids. Did DP have to scold you often? Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. Being scolded by DP is the worst. The absolute worst. He he just talk and talk

and talk so mischief we would get into like mom has i always tell people she has the cleanest house you could literally eat off of her floor i would yeah it is so and she would hear that and be like oh my oh my but no you totally could but you know to keep a house looking a certain way takes a lot of cleaning. And so one time when we were in high school, we, and I think DP may have said this story on the podcast. I don't know. We hid behind a kitchen island when we heard somebody coming. And we were like, shit, it's mom.

Hide. And then. And we were, okay. This sounds like a cute little story from when we were little kids. No. We were not. Teenagers. We, the thing was, like, it seemed like Saturday mornings, mom would go on a tear.

Yeah. And the weird thing was, like, she wouldn't go seek you out and be like, you need to start cleaning. But it was like, if you happen to catch her eye, oopsies, you passed her in the hallway. And so, like, for a while there, you there you and I like if one of us got roped into cleaning we would go and do the other one as well and be like don't go down for breakfast just starve stay where you are but yeah I think if memory serves we we had been hiding from mom but we were hungry and so we went down to the kitchen because we thought mom was in the basement, but really she was like in the garage or something.

And so all of a sudden we hear footsteps. Boom. We fall to the ground behind the kitchen island. And I remember we were just like looking at the ground. Hunkered down. Yeah. Hunkered down. Didn't even occur to me that we'd been spotted.

And, you know, we hear the footsteps coming closer and closer and finally it's dad and dad goes girls what are you doing and we had to tell him that we were hiding from mom and he probably was like same i don't know yeah yeah but i what other kind of mischief did we get into there There wasn't a lot of, like, I mean, because people have asked that about you and Brandy on the podcast. And it's kind of like, they're. Yeah, there's no great story there. The thing about, did DP have to scold you often? Oh, my gosh.

The thing I think is so funny is people sometimes of a certain generation are like oh spanking is the only way to teach your kids anything i promise you i would have rather than be hit from dad or the no and and i can feel the pitts genes in my blood now as a parent because his big thing was like what do you think your punishment should be and i don't do that oh my god you know what so my daughter alexandra got in trouble a little bit today she told me later because honestly it's one of those things where sometimes as a parent you don't know what the punishment should be which was totally dad's move and he has said that but i just told her i was like look daddy and i need to talk about this like we need to figure out what it's going to be and so she told me later she was like well just so you

know I I I punished myself and I wrote a hundred times I will take ownership for my actions she's trying to I wanted I want her to pull out those receipts like okay show me that you did she's trying to get herself off probation she played she paid restitution to the victims yep she did the whole thing uh-huh but yeah dad's big thing was we would have to discuss in depth what we had done he would lecture at length about how that was wrong and then it would end, what do you think your punishment should be? Which I've told Norm this story before, and he's like, oh, easy peasy, you just say you shouldn't be punished. No, because if you undersell, then the lecture goes from the beginning.

You're screwed either way. So you're better to be like, I should be shot. You know? That's what we should have said. Give me now. Sarah Kaya Combsen wants to know, that's what we should have said. Sarah Kaya Combs and wants to know, Kyla, what was the family convo about Norm the first time the Pitts family met him? So, I mean, mom and dad met him a long time before I did. Because and and for a long time, it's funny, like Norm and Kristen forget this because at a certain point,

long time it's funny like norm and kristin forget this because at a certain point somebody just feels like such a fixture of your family that it's kind of hard to remember at what point they came in you just kind of assume like all these milestones happen together right but i didn't meet norm until the weekend jay and i got married and i think you guys have told this story i don't think we have okay so i basically long story, long story short, that whole weekend, like, I just thought Norm was super, super quiet. Yeah. And kind of like Brandy. Which is how he comes across to anyone he's meeting for the first time. Yeah.

And I think he just was like, this is my girlfriend's sister's wedding. I'm just trying to be helpful and quiet and not rock the boat and just be present. So I think he was just trying to, you know, be that guy. And so we came back from Arkansas. Jay was doing Teach for America and we drove all the way from Arkansas, like seven hours. And it had been snowing and Kristen and Norm had been sledding outside. And Jay, you know, he's in Teach for America. so he's like 22 years old and he's teaching high school so he wore like a suit and tie every day and and at the risk of making this weird Jay is very good looking I think

so it should be said oh Jay is a good looking guy he shows up dressed very nicely. Yes. And for whatever reason, so, you know, Norm had never been sledding before. He was from North Carolina. So he had to borrow dad's clothes. So you're in your dad's, your girlfriend's dad's clothes. And I mean, obviously, dad doesn't have any fashionable clothes. So these are like the rejects of the rejects. So he had on dad's old snow pants. Old snow pants, probably from 82.

And then he had on, do you want to describe it? So we attended Shawnee Mission Northwest High School, home of the Cougars. And so he had on this long sleeve shirt that just said Cougars across it with like a little fake claw mark yeah so the font was really edgy it was orange it was written in orange and then it had it was meant to look like the shirt was torn because a cougar had come and torn it that's right yeah so I remember thinking why hasn't Norm changed out of that outfit because you know we went sledding then i got changed out of that but norm was like in the outfit he was committed committed to the snow pants he didn't want to insult dp by changing out of his fashionable clothes but so then i just remember hearing i guess that after you know so so we arrive jay's in his you know suit and tie and

so is matt who's one of our groomsmen, who's coming from Arkansas with us. And I guess later on. And Norman's in his cougar shirt. Yeah, and Norm's later like, they're coming, looking so good. And I'm in this stupid cougar shirt. Yeah, so I remember we were in the guest room. Because, you know, everybody's off in these guest rooms. So we were in bed and he was like, I feel like such an idiot.

Does that guy always dress like that? I was like, well, I don't know. Like he's coming home from work. I don't know. He goes, I'm sitting here. He's in a suit and tie. I'm in this stupid cougar shirt. And I was like, well, why were you still wearing that cougar shirt?

And he goes it's really comfortable that's right because it's like been worn for 20 years it's like super comfy soaked in the dp juices oh god why did you say that but that being said like norman is the funniest oh my god just the funniest guy it's like super super quiet that first weekend and then it's just been nothing but hilarious hilarious one-liners ever okay so one time we went out to basically we had okay jay and i had this extra washer and dryer because like a washer and dryer been left at the house and we'd already bought one that we brought with us so we had this extra

washer and dryer kristin and norm needed one right and so they were like let us pay you for a washer and dryer we're like no just take it but like take us out to a nice meal or something you know whatever so we're at grand street for kansas city folks so we're out of this nice restaurant and um so the lady comes to do the check, and Norm says, So she came up, and she was like, she asked something like, is it all in one check? And Norman said, I'll take it. I'm a philanthropist. And then he gestures to you, and he goes,

and I've never seen a worthier cause. And the waitress was so uncomfortable as you would be yeah yes first of all i don't know that she knew what philanthropist meant because like based on her face yeah she looked very confused and yeah that's that's a day in the life with norman oh my god that was so funny What does make me honestly sad about his YouTube stuff is like, people don't know how funny he is. No. He's like, he's the funniest person I've ever met.

The funniest guy. Yeah. Yeah, and you're so funny too. It's like the two of you together. Just a hoot. Just a hoot. Just laughs and laughs here. Take today, for example. Oh. With the outlet covers outlet covers no i'm just thinking you came over and we were both in such terrible moods because someone had sideswiped the prius didn't

leave a note well yeah norman wanted to just put an outlet cover on an outlet but like yeah things went comically wrong and he was like i want to burn this house to the ground old houses hey philanthropists have bad days too that's true yeah it's true nicole b wants to know what's the dumbest fight y'all have gotten into oh god i mean i always got mad at kristin we were in like middle school and high school because she always had bigger boobs than I did and she would come and take my clothes and then she'd stretch out the chest.

This was totally in your imagination. No! Yes. I also think I'm just very like weird about. You're weird about clothes. I'm weird about clothes. I'm also just like I was I think I'm weird about clothes. I'm also just like I was I think I'm better about it now.

Hopefully. Like I was bad at sharing. Yes. It wasn't that my boobs were like Dolly Parton. That's a hitch in the face. My parents let Kristen get a boob job in middle school. It was just a really weird choice. No I think I was and I didn't realize

it until I was in college and Jay and I moved in together, and it just became clear. And he wanted to wear your clothes, and you said no. I was like, look at your huge boobs. Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, that was, so that was for sure, that's stupid. Kyla. Yeah.

Thanksgiving. Which Thanksgiving? Like, how old were we? This was last thanksgiving you and norman had the same color coat and then he oh and kristin had this smirk on her face because she knew i was gonna be this was a test of any kind of growth that i have made as a human being. And clearly I've not made much. We both have like an olive green colored coat.

And it's Thanksgiving. He walked back in from whatever room has been the coat room and he's got my coat on. And I was like. And it's skin tight. It looked hilarious. Honestly, it didn't even occur to me that you wouldn't find it funny. It was so funny to me. But then the look on your face. It was a look of I'm supposed't find it funny. It was so funny to me. But then the look on your face. It

was it was a look of I'm supposed to find this funny. Surely I've grown more than this. Oh, God, no, I haven't. Oh, little Allie. So Allie, Allie saw how you were reacting. And you know, everybody else is laughing. Yeah yeah because it was funny i can we'll post a picture of norman wearing this coat it was really funny and so ally was like went over and started you know smacking yeah take off my mommy's coat oh anytime she feels like somebody's being ganged up on yeah she is at that person's defense it's like then i had to tell her like no ally it's fine like i'm just but tell her, no, Allie, it's fine. But you were like, no, Allie, get my coat.

Go get a coat. He's a bad man. Ooh, Nicole B wants to know, have Brandy and Kyla always gotten along? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, I mean, back in the day it was all of us. It was all of our, there was let's see,

you, me, Brandy, Christine, Laura, you know, and Jessica. So there were like seven or eight of us. And it was sleepovers every weekend. Prank calls. Yeah, so you and I, like I was always one grade level ahead. Yeah. Which it would have sucked if our friends didn't get along. But luckily, you know, it's like it never really even occurred to us. But like, you know, we would all have slumber parties.

So my friends were your friends. Your friends were my friends. So, yeah, I mean, you and Brandy have been long term friends as well. Yes, we've also been, which some people would think it would be weird that you're long term friends with her and I'm long term friends with her. But it's a judgment. These things happen. things happen yeah exactly you gave her stool softener i did have you guys yeah you did talk about it right i don't know that we talked you talked about how i gave her nipple ointment you i gave her just weird stuff well go ahead and tell them

well basically so you know i had henry in 2019 and so i just had all this stuff and it's like my second baby and we'd had you know the seven year age gap between which is what everyone aims for everyone aims for it jay and i perfected it we're writing a book right now but i had all this stuff that it's like okay i've got a bottle of stool softener and I've taken a couple of those. And literally, I remember I had a bottle with Alexander and I had it for years and it expired. You know, because it's like, how often do you really need stool softener? Personally, I don't need it that often. If you do, I'm not judging. We've all got our strengths.

And so I did. I gave her, it's like I had an unopened thing of nipple ointment. And it was probably, no, you know what? It was unopened because you bought it for me, I think. And I'd already bought one for myself. Oh. Anyway. Classic nip slip butter. But so I've given Brandy some weird stuff.

And bless her heart, she's been gracious about it all i think that says something that like you're close enough that you can give her an opened bottle of stool okay i mean do we need to say more we've talked about tylenol murders eccentric murders and you know stool no but yeah it's just like i know her well enough that it's like you're gonna need this and you're gonna thank me and folks today was that day we did get the thank you text that's all i'm gonna say yeah as if you're holding back real big detail that's right should we do one more sure oh you know what i was thinking we should tell the people what well there were two stories as i because i've been

thinking about this for a few days it's like what what do the people want to know and i think there's the people what they want what they want and it was just like well you know they might be curious about like what's our sister friendship like and i always think about when you worked at that summer yeah with the you know you know it was like a summer camp and they asked a question of like if you had to pick one person in the world that you had to trust to pick your nose oh yeah who is it gonna be and you said Kyla and I was like that's trust yeah you know it's like you know i'm not gonna i'm gonna trim my nails first i'm gonna make sure they're clean you know i was like you know that says something but then i was wondering if i

should tell the pickle story oh you know what i wondered if you would, and I almost asked you, because someone has asked, what are your embarrassing stories? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the pickle story. Kyla, it doesn't get much better. Do you want to tell that story? I will tell the pickle story. I will.

Now, what's unfortunate for me is, like, I'm still a professional in my career. Yeah, that's why I wasn't going to push it. professional in my career yeah that's why i wasn't gonna push it because so if you're gonna know me professionally just go ahead and hit pause right now okay so this was in high school and i had it was number two time at the penthouse hall and it was impressive it was impressive okay and when you have a major life accomplishment you want to share it with others this is disgusting she wanted me to go look i was like at her number two look at this look at what i have done and she wouldn't do it and obviously not i told her no way she was so disgusted i like, wow, acting like you're all fancy or something.

So then I... No, do you remember what you said to me first? I said, if you don't come in here and look at this, I'm going to bring it out to you. No. Oh. No, at first you said, fine, I'm just not going to flush it. You're going to have to see it. And I was like, we've got more than one bathroom.

I could play this game all day. This is a fancy, fancy place. So anyway, so she does have to go to the bathroom. So she's gone somewhere else. And I'm thinking, okay, she's going pee. I've got like one minute max to reconstruct a turd somehow. So I run to the kitchen and I get a paper plate. And I'm like, I get a pickle because I need something with some form.

And then we had this cup of coffee yogurt that I swear had been in the door of the fridge for like six months. And I just pour the coffee yogurt on top of the pickle didn't look great y'all it didn't look great and i ran i ran my little tuchus to the other bathroom and i i don't even remember what exactly what i said or did i remember this so well okay so the key to know is that I had gone into our parents' bathroom and mom and dad had like a pretty nice bathroom that like, it was huge. It was huge. And one wall was all mirrors. And so on the other side is the toilet. And so I was on the far side and you come in and I'm watching you in the mirror. And we've just had this conversation where you've tried to get me to go look at your poop, and I was like, absolutely not.

And you're coming into the bathroom with a paper plane on your hands, and this thing that looks a hell of a lot like a turd sliding around and you were laughing so hard and i started screaming because i did not know what your plan was i didn't want anything to do with it now in my mind tell me if this is true i just ran up to you put my fingers in the coffee yogurt and wiped it on your face so okay what i think what I think my, okay, my memory is like, at a certain point, you got close enough that I got a look at the thing and you guys, it really did not look like. No, it looked like a pickle covered in yogurt. So I started laughing. I was like, what is that? And you wouldn't say. And so that's when you put your fingers in and put it on my face. Which, okay, all of that kind of reminds me

of the time that you were super mad at me and then super not mad at me. I must have a fixation with bodily functions. Was when mom made, the name of this dish sounds disgusting. It's frog eye salad. Yeah, it does sound disgusting. And it's these little rice noodle things.

They're like a tiny little ball. And they're really kind of ooey gooey. And so I took one after mom had made it. And I went. Kristen was like reading in this chair. And I went up and I pretended to sneeze on her. And I

wiped it on her. The look on your face like you were going to kill me. You got me. Yeah. You got me. I thought you had literally sneezed and just boogied all over my arm. Yes, yes.

We'll see if you want to cut that later. If I have her gerts, I'll let you know. Her gerts. Okay, so now let's go into Supreme Court Induction. Woo-hoo! Okay, so now let's go into Supreme Court Induction. You guys, this week we are doing names and favorite books. And of course, if you're like, oh my gosh, how do I become a part of this? Get on Patreon at the $7 level. You get a monthly bonus episode, a monthly bonus video.

You get into the Discord. You get inducted on the podcast. You get a sticker. You get a little card with our autographs. more could you want nothing else nothing in the world not food not shelter not water that's right this is it folks the lgtc sticker will keep you warm i will be reading names lucia heartbreak tangango by Manuel Puig P-U-I-G I'm just like my sister, I don't know how to say things

Kara Wagner The Last Book on the Left Marlee Olsen The Twilight Series J.K. It's Actually the Golden Compass Oh Marlee Cindy Erickson Me Talk Pretty One Day by David Sedaris.

Anne Gearing. Invisible Monsters by Chuck Palahniuk. Steve Petrie. The Slow Regard of Silent Things. Rachel Bentley. Autobiography of a Geisha. Do you think she means memoir of a geisha? Oh, maybe memoir.

Probably memoirs of a geisha. Yeah. I was like, why does that not sound... Rachel, I hate to tell you how to beat. Rachel. Rachel. If maybe this is the sequel. Katie B.

Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. Kristen Mazur. House of Leaves by Mark Z. Danielewski. Rhonda Vance. The Reckoning by John Grisham. Sherry T. The Expanse Series by James S.A. Corey. Brianna Lee.

The Great Gatsby. Monica Lambert. Freckle Juice by Judy Blume. Olivia Colley. I was just trying to call you out on your pronunciation, but you got it right. Can I Be your dog? Gracie Gokey. Call me by your name.

Welcome to the Supreme Court. Sorry, guys. I was like, something's coming, and then I messed it up. My gosh. Sorry, Brandi. You know, if you were Brandi right now, you'd be going into, hey, find us on. Oh, okay. Guys, we're on all the things and the stuff.

We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit. Eros.com. What? That's the point. I was like, I've heard of that. EdwinRist.com. We're on all of the dot coms. We are the web king.

Once you've done all that and left us a review, join us next week. Where we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the 2020 episode,

Down Payment on Death and the Palm Beach Post. I got my info from the podcast, This American Life, episode 654, The Feather Heist. Research for This American Life was episode 654, The Feather Heist. Research for This American Life was from Kirk Johnson and his book, The Feather Thief, Beauty Obsession and the Natural History Heist of the Century. Also an article for the BBC entitled Natural History Museum Thief Ordered to Pay Thousands. I think you cut off the end of our outro. What? What? Oh, no. Still there.

No, I don't see it. I see it. Oh, my God. I see it now. Oh, my God. What an idiot. Oh, wow. Way to make the newbie sweat. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com.

Any errors are, of course, ours. Please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.