Let's Go To Court! - 134: The Kidnapping of Jeremy London & a House Fire

Episode Date: August 5, 2020

Cameron Todd Willingham woke up to his two-year-old daughter screaming “Daddy, Daddy!” He sat up in bed, but was surrounded by smoke so thick he could barely see. He made his way out of the burning house and yelled for his neighbors to call the fire department. His two-year-old daughter and one-year-old twins were  trapped inside the home. Cameron dropped to his knees and cried. Firefighters arrived on the scene, but they couldn’t save the children. All three of the Willingham children died in the fire. It was a tragedy, plain and simple. But a few days later, when arson investigators reviewed the scene, they were certain that the fire was set intentionally. Cameron had set the fire. But years later, certainty waned. Were those arson experts really experts, after all?   Then Brandi tells us a bizarre story about Seventh Heaven star Jeremy London. In 2010, Jeremy claimed that a group of men abducted him after they helped him change his flat tire. They forced him to do drugs and drink alcohol at gunpoint. He told them he was in recovery, but they didn’t care. For twelve hours, they forced him to take drugs. He finally got free when one of the kidnappers took pity on him. Jeremy reported his story to the police, but he faced skepticism -- namely from his mom and twin brother. They thought his story sounded fishy. Perhaps Jeremy made the story up in order to cover up a relapse?  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The article “Trial by Fire” by David Grann in The New Yorker The Frontline episode, “Death by Fire”  “Cameron Todd Willingham,” entry on Wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Jeremy London: ‘I Was So Scared’” by Michelle Tauber, People “Jeremy London Survives Bizarre Kidnapping Incident” by Ken Lee, People “Jeremy London kidnapped, forced to do drugs, buy booze at gunpoint: report” by Michael Sheridan, New York Daily News “EXCLUSIVE: Hollywood Actor Jeremy London Kidnapped; Held At Gun Point, Robbed & Forced To Smoke Drugs” Radar Online “Is Jeremy London’s Kidnapping Story Falling Apart?” by Josh Grossberg, E! Online “Jeremy London’s Mom: I Don’t Want to Bury Another Child” by Natalie Finn and Ken Baker, E! Online “EXCLUSIVE JAILHOUSE INTERVIEW: Man Accused Of 'Kidnapping' Jeremy London Says 'We Partied All Night' -- He Took Ecstasy and Xanax” Radar Online “Jeremy London: I’m Vindicated in Kidnapping Case” by Johnny Dodd, People

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about a house fire. And I'll be talking about the kidnapping of Jeremy London. Another kidnapping, Brandi. Ooh, this is a kidnapping unlike any kidnapping I've done, Kristen. In what way? No, you'll just have to listen

to find out. Okay. Very profesh. I like that teaser. Very good. Thank you. My case is terrible. Do people die in the house fire? Brandy. They do, don't they? This is like the worst. This is a terrible.

See, I feel like I this isn't fair for you to do a terrible case, because I come in here, like, thinking it's going to be a Kristen case, and I'm like, oh, did somebody die? It's my fault that you're an ass? Yeah, because you don't do terrible cases. Yes, I do. I do plenty of them. When?

Like, that time that lady shit her pants at the chip rally? What was that? At the chip rally? What are at the chip rally what are you talking about the chips case i have no idea what you're talking about oh oh alestra alestra brady i've covered serial killers on this very podcast. Have you been alert for any of this? That's my favorite episode. Your favorite episode is the Alestra case?

No. Oh, what? The John Robinson case. Oh, just fond memories of my podcast with my friend where she told me about a serial killer in our local area. We're the players. Brandi, enough about that. No, Juvenile Bigfoot is my favorite case you've ever done. Nobody died in that one.

My favorite case you've ever done was the one that we released last week. We just released, yeah. Yeah, which it seems like I'm being lazy, but no, it was The Watcher. You want to update on that? Yeah, give us the update. Okay, so you had a theory from the very beginning that it was the old lady next door.

Detective Kristen correctly saw. We need Norm up here to do Peg's name. Peg! Bobby! And so we made a comment about how Peg's probably not alive anymore because you apologized in case it wasn't her. Yeah. So a listener found Peggy's obituary.

She just died in February of this year. And she was from Kansas City. I flipped my shit. Yes. And Norman said this in front of us. Yeah. He was like, it seems like a very Kansas City, very Midwestern thing to do to passive aggressively torment your neighbors.

It does. And we couldn't argue. We're too polite to do it to their face. Isn't that really polite? Yeah, I think that's what somebody thinks it's polite. Like your neighbor who wrote you the anonymous note about

needing some yard work probably thought that that was the polite way to do it. No, that's a chicken shit way to do it. Say it to my face. Say it to my face.

But Brandy, my goodness, you said a listener reached out to us. How did that happen? They actually posted it in the Discord, Kristen. Kristen? I got stuck trying to make the D on Discord at the end,

and then go into a K, and my mouth did all kinds of weird things. Listen, Grandi, the thing we do on Patreon is... For $5 a month, you get a monthly bonus episode you also get into the discord where it's like a 90 style chat room at the seven dollar level you get all that plus a free bonus well it's not free you pay for it a bonus video and you get a sticker and you get a card with our lovely autographs and you get inducted into this podcast and then at the ten dollar level this is the newest level bob moss above the law you get all the shit from the well no all the great stuff from the previous crap and you get ad free episodes and you get them a day early whoa

can't put a price tag on that. That's right. And you can tell us when you found one of the people's obituaries on the cases we've talked about. Yeah, only Bob Mosses can tell us that. If people at any other level tell us, we just do not even listen. Yeah. They haven't earned the right.

That's exactly right. Brandi, are you ready to get real depressed? Yeah. You seem happy. I know. I'm feeling pretty the right. That's exactly right. Brandi, are you ready to get real depressed? Yeah. You seem happy. I know. I'm feeling pretty good today. I got my hair done. You got your hair done?

Yeah. Does it look exactly the same? I just got the same thing done to it. Yeah, but you were telling me for forever, oh, my hair looks terrible. My hair looks terrible. And I was like, it really doesn't, though. It looks good good i had terrible split ends not anymore okay well i wasn't like grays okay you had four gray hairs and no one is that up close to your ends to like really be judging you could tell from a mile away i okay okay bonus video that we just recorded. Yes. All I could look at was how terrible the ends of my hair looked in that thing.

You know what I don't like about doing videos? What? Is. We have to look at ourselves? Yes. Yes. Yes. People talk about like, oh, I don't want to hear myself.

I don't mind hearing myself. It's looking that I'm like, I'm really, really decaying before my very eyes. You look amazing in the video. Thank you. Yeah. You're super cute outfit on. looking that I'm like, I'm really decaying before my very eyes. You look amazing in the video. Thank you. Yeah, super cute outfit on. You look great. Meanwhile, my face looks puffy and my hands looked terrible.

Brandy. Fake news all around. The truth is, we're both former models who have now fallen into podcasting. And if you're debating that, you have to sign up for the Patreon to decide whether that's true. I know that that's a lie. Okay. All right, let's talk about a terrible house fire. Okay.

I mean, there's not really any great house fires, so. I mean, what if it's a terrible house and then it catches fire and you get the insurance money? That was not a terrible house, Brandy. That was some terrible neighbor who was being a total creep. All right. And we all know who. Maybe, maybe not. Allegedly. What if I'm wrong?

Then I'm just a douchebag. Well, there's no way to know if you're right. Unless the letters stop coming. Although the letters had already stopped coming. So it's fine. Yeah. It's fine. It's no big deal.

Everybody calm down. Okay. Do you have like a tan line? Yeah. Yeah, lady. Why are you making that face? don't think you got tamed you should see the color of my stomach right now here i'm gonna show you oh yeah yeah oh my gosh all right yeah kiss it Yes, I've been running a little outside and working outside in my yard.

And as a result, I've become golden. Thank you very much. Okay. You've got a lovely glow. I'm being for real. Why are you looking at me like that? You look beautiful. I just don't want to start this case. No. I'm stalling. I'm being for real. Why are you looking at me like that? Nothing. You look beautiful.

I just don't want to start this case. No. I'm stalling. I'm stalling. Okay. Thank you to Justice Beer Mascara for suggesting this case. Is that somebody's name? Justice Beer Mascara.

I don't question it. Maybe it's the thing she likes. and mascara and justice yeah it made sense to me there's someone in the discord yeah oh okay so this person um i can't remember what exactly they wrote in that in that note but they basically said that they found out about this case a while ago and they've been haunted by it ever since. Am I going to be haunted today? Yeah. Because, okay, the second this person mentioned it in the Discord, I looked at it and I was like, nope, I remember that case.

I'm not covering it. Oh. But here I sit about to cover it. So I saw some show like a million years ago 2020 no i line 48 hours you think you know me so well forensics files yeah it's probably probably yeah could have been any one of those but no this is a case that sticks with you okay you can watch all the true crime stuff but this one's gonna stick in your brain. Okay.

Okay, you're already looking really disappointed. Here we go. First off, Brandy, it's gonna be okay. Okay. First off, the article trial by far, trial by far,

does take place in Texas. Trial by far far there was a fire by david grant in the new yorker okay so this article by david grant it is so good i also watched a frontline episode called death by fire and did a little sprinkling from the Wikipedia page. Just like over the top? Just over the top. Just some parsley. Really doesn't add anything to it, but you know

it's there. It's a lovely garnish. No, it's not. It's very 80s, don't you think? Parsley? Yeah. Do you remember Applebee's parsley used to come on your plate with everything? Yeah. They would do it around the outside of the plate. Yeah.

This is why Applebee's is going under. Yes. And you can trace it back to the parsley. They weren't fooling anybody with that. Okay. So, important thing. You know, I did watch some other stuff and all that stuff, but really, this whole thing, I am paraphrasing David Grand's fantastic article in The New Yorker.

All credit to him and Jesus, you know, because you always got to give credit to Jesus. But no, all credit to him. And I'm leaving a lot of stuff out, but if you want to know more, check it out. Got it. Okay. It was December 23, 1991, in Corsicana, Texas.

Oh, yeah. Oh. Home of the Collin Street Bakery, a.k.a. the fruitcake capital of the world. Also home of Navarro Cheer. Yeah. We've talked about Corsicana on the podcast before. Yeah, a lot for a pretty small town. We bought the fruitcake.

We have to go there now. Yeah. Okay, anyway. Can we go to the Collins Street Bakery? Yeah, why not? Someone told us on our Patreon page, I believe it was, that the best thing from the Collins Street Bakery

is the cookies, not the fruitcake. I'd believe it. Yeah. I mean, no cookies not the fruitcake i'd believe it yeah i mean no shade to the fruitcake but you know yeah i'm just not a big fruitcake person i've go get cookies even a bad cookie i finished the whole cookie yeah you know okay anyway here we go what else would you like to talk about instead of your case anything literally anything okay so as i covered in my previous episode about corsicana corsicana is a small town it's a mix of old money from oil and regular middle-class people this story takes place in a middle-class neighborhood neighborhood. An 11-year-old girl was out playing in her backyard when she smelled smoke. Really strong smoke. So she ran inside and told her mom, Diane, who was watching The Price is Right,

because she's exactly like Brandy. And Diane went outside and holy shit, just two houses down, a house was on fire. They ran toward the house where the owner of the house cameron todd willingham was standing on the porch screaming he was just wearing a pair of jeans and the rest of him was covered in soot oh gosh cameron was going batshit he yelled my babies are burning up oh no he yelled for them to call the fire department and diane did as she was told she rushed home called the fire department meanwhile cameron grabbed a stick and he used it to break the children's bedroom window but as soon as he broke it flames burst through where the window had been. He broke another window.

Same thing happened. Flames burst through it. His two-year-old daughter, Amber, and his one-year-old twin daughters, Carmen and Cameron, were trapped inside the house, and there was nothing he could do. He walked out into the yard, kneltelt down and cried for his babies as soon as diane finished calling the police she came back outside what's the face for well it's the names isn't it yep yeah um yeah so his name's cameron with a c and one of the infant girls was cameron with a k and then the other one was Carmen. Carmen.

I mean, you're just going to fuck those names up constantly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It'll be a confusing time. I mean, it didn't mean you. I meant as a parent. Yeah.

No, I know what you meant. Yeah. Yeah. At this point. Okay. So as soon as Diane finished calling the police, she came back outside. At this point, the fire was so hot that the windows of the children's room exploded. Oh, my gosh.

And flames shot out of them. Pretty soon, fire trucks arrived, and the firefighters were like, oh, shit. This was just a one-story house, and the fire was powerful. Cameron ran up to the fireman, he's like my kids are in their bedroom you have to get them you have to get them but that was tough because the children's bedroom appeared to be where the flames were coming from oh my gosh so they started trying to put out the fire and one of the firemen put on an air tank and a mask and tried to go in through a window, but couldn't because he got hit by a big stream of water. So then he tried going through the front door.

But oddly, when he got to the kitchen, he noticed that there was a refrigerator blocking the back door. Okay, did this dad kill his kids and start this fire to cover it up? Kristen. There were two refrigerators in the kitchen. Oh, no. Meanwhile, Cameron was losing it. He told a police chaplain that his wife, Stacy, had gone out shopping that morning. She was trying to get Christmas presents at the Salvation Army for the kids. Oh. And so he'd been asleep, but he'd woken up to the house on fire and to his two-year-old daughter, Amber, screaming, Daddy, Daddy.

How many kids are in this house? Three. It's Amber, the two-year-old, and then the one-year-old twins. Okay, okay. I didn't remember Amber. That's okay, the two-year-old, and then the one-year-old twins. Okay, okay. I didn't remember Amber. That's okay. I'll allow it. Cameron was beside himself. He was like, my little girl was trying to wake me up and tell me about the fire.

I couldn't get my babies out. As they were having this conversation, one of the firemen came out of the house holding Amber. He'd found her in the master bedroom. Hmm. Hmm. What? Master bedroom. Okay. Yeah, Cameron had been telling them the kids are in the children's room. They find her in the master bedroom cameron got up

started walking toward her but then he made like a mad turn toward the house he had to get his infant daughters but of course the fire was out of control and you know he wasn't equipped to go in there so the firemen held him back but cameron was so emotional and so forceful that they ended up wrestling him to the ground and handcuffing him oh my gosh yeah and then they were like you killed your children this is all an act we're gonna go ahead and take you down to the station basically i mean you're rushing through some parts ultimately all three of the children died the two infants were found on the floor of their bedroom what are they doing on the floor so he said that um in the mornings when they would wake up um stacy used to let them like

drink their bottles on the floor and you know nap on the floor if they wanted to which i mean they're one year old so i guess it's whatever you know okay all right the medical examiner determined that all three of the children had died from smoke inhalation this was a terrible tragedy okay i'm surprised by. They weren't dead before the fire? No. So he started the fire to kill them. Hmm. Okay. All right. Okay.

Okay. All right. This was a terrible tragedy. And the people of Corsicana felt awful for Cameron and Stacey. So people donated money to help these two young, grieving parents. I think Cameron was 23, Stacy was like 22, and that money was very much appreciated because Cameron had been out of work at the time of the fire.

He was staying home watching the kids, and Stacy just worked in her brother's bar. Meanwhile, four days after the fire, Cameron told some local arson investigators, yeah, you can go look at the house. I want to know why my babies died. Go take a look. So these two guys, Douglas Fogg, who was the assistant fire chief,

and Manuel Vasquez, who was the deputy fire marshal, began going through the house. And they discovered something unsettling. There was deep charring along the bottom of the walls. Like an accelerant had been used? Ooh, I think you're ready to go be a fire chief somewhere. Yeah, so it seemed weird because flames usually burn upward, but this fire seemed to burn super low. Flames usually burn upward, but this fire seemed to burn super low. And there were these weird patterns on the floor, almost like little pools.

Where the accelerant was. Brandy. The investigators had a bad feeling that some sort of flammable liquid had been poured on the floor. All the evidence they saw indicated that the floor had been hotter than the ceiling. That was weird. And equally weird was the fact that there was a pattern on the glass

from the broken windows. The pattern looked kind of like a spiderwebby pattern, which is an indicator that the fire was super hot and it burned things up super quickly. They found a burn trailer that went from the kids room, including under their beds, down the hallway and out the front door. They found stains on the concrete porch. In their expert opinion, that meant that there had been an accelerant in this fire. They also determined, based on V-shaped soot patterns on the walls, that the fire had been started in three places. The kids' bedroom, the hallway, and the front door.

And then the back door was blocked right brandy's nodding like a detective right now the investigators were disturbed so he pours the gasoline as he's walking out the front door and sets it from there exactly holy shit exactly oh my god the investigators were disturbed uh-huh based on what they saw that this fire hadn't just happened no it had been set intentionally someone had poured an accelerant all over the children's room, down the hallway, and out the door, Brandy. Brandy, are you ready for this job? I think you're ready to be called in. The accelerant made it impossible for anyone to escape the fire, and that much more difficult for anyone to rescue anyone from the fire. A lab chemist took one of the samples from

the house and sure enough they detected mineral spirits which is often found in charcoal lighter fluid. Someone had set the Willingham's house on fire. Someone had murdered three children and obviously that someone was Cameron Todd Willingham. Yes. So police began looking into Cameron. And his history wasn't pretty. He'd had a rough childhood. His mom left him when he was an infant.

So he was raised by his dad and stepmom. Jean and Eugenia. Ooh. I know, that's a weird pairing, but but you know eugenia seemed really nice in the episode of frontline um gene not so much okay when cameron was a teenager he dropped out of high school um he started sniffing paint at like 11 yeah no um he was arrested a couple times for like shoplifting dui you, that kind of thing. And his relationship with his wife, Stacy, was also disturbing.

He was physically abusive toward her. A neighbor once heard him yell, get up, bitch, and I'll hit you again. Oh, God. Stacy's childhood had also been rough. When she was four years old, her stepfather murdered her mom. Oh, my gosh. So police were getting a clearer picture of Cameron. And so were the witnesses, weirdly.

So initially, the witnesses had said that Cameron acted like a terrified, grieving father. But the more they thought about it, their stories changed. The chaplain who had been there to talk with Cameron said that upon further reflection, he believed that Cameron was in complete control that day. Things weren't as they seemed. Cameron's reaction seemed a little overdone. weren't as they seemed. Cameron's reaction seemed a little overdone.

He said that he seemed to have the type of distress that a woman who had given birth would have upon seeing her children die. Hmm. Which I think is the douchiest, weirdest thing you could possibly say. Mothers and fathers can be very upset about their children dying. You don't have to give birth to have a bigger bond with the kid. That's super weird.

Diane Barbie, the woman who ran to call the fire department and came back, said that she hadn't seen Cameron try to run into the house until after the firefighters arrived. And at that moment, when all the windows burst in his children's room, he moved his car down the driveway. What? Yeah. Okay, that's super fucking weird. Yeah. Okay, that's super fucking weird. He says he moved it because he was afraid his car was going to explode near the house and that his kids would be in even more danger.

Mm. Mm-hmm. People around town were talking, too. Evidently, pretty soon after the fire, Cameron went out to a bar. Didn't seem too upset about anything. In fact, he seemed kind of excited about getting a new dart set. What? Well, you know how exciting it can be to get a new dart set. That'll knock the grief right out of you, am I right? I don't think so. Police brought Cameron in for an

interrogation and he walked them through the morning of the fire stacy got up to go to the salvation army at 9 a.m he got up to give the twins their bottles which as i said they usually drank on the floor of the bedroom and they napped afterward amber wasn't up yet so he gave the twins their bottles and he went back to bed and he woke up to Amber yelling, Daddy, Daddy, and the house full of smoke. Yet she was in the master bedroom, and he somehow escaped the fire through the front door, which is where the accelerant was. Yeah. Uh-huh. So he found a pair of pants on the floor, put them on.

By that point, Amber had stopped speaking wherever she was. I mean, there was so much smoke he couldn't see, so he yelled for her to get out of the house. He had no idea that she had been in the room with him. He went down the hallway to the kids' bedroom, but there was smoke everywhere. He couldn't see anything. He crawled through the house. He heard electrical pops. The house smelled the way it had a few weeks earlier when their microwave had blown up. It smelled electrical.

But he got to the kids' room, and he stood up. And as soon as he did his hair caught fire he stayed in that room as long as he could trying to save his babies at one point he thought he had one of them but he'd grabbed a doll how big is this fucking room um probably not big but if you can't see anything and it's super crazy hot... Yeah. But also, I'm sure they're, like, screaming their heads off. Unless they've gone unconscious.

That's true. Okay. Finally, with all the smoke and the flames and the unbearable heat, Cameron made his way out of the house. smoke and the flames and the unbearable heat, Cameron made his way out of the house. That's when he saw Diane Barbie and yelled for her to call the fire department, and when she left, he tried again to save his kids, but he was unsuccessful. It was a terribly sad story, and the police thought that it was bullshit. They asked him how he thought the fire started,

and Cameron had a theory. He'd seen flames in the kids' room, so the fire probably started there, and there were three space heaters in the house. All in the kids' room? No, one of them was in the kids' room. What year is this? 92.

I'm sorry. The fire started December of 91. What? What are you thinking? Well, I mean, I think even in probably in December of 91, they knew you weren't supposed to be a space heater in a baby's bedroom. Okay, I hear you. But if you're super poor and it's December and it's cold outside, do you just plug the heater in? Yeah, you probably do. So he taught Amber not to mess with the space heater.

She got a whooping every time she messed with it. The investigators knew that there'd been space heaters in the house, but here's the thing. When they searched the house, they discovered that the one in the children's room had been in the off position. So clearly, Cameron was full of shit. They asked him if anyone wanted to hurt his family and he was like, no. No one would be that cold-blooded. He told them that he and Stacy had their problems, but the kids had kept them together.

Neither one of them could live without the kids. And honestly, he wished he hadn't even woken up that day. Mm-hmm. What's going on with you? I wish he hadn't woken up and poured that gasoline on his way out the front door. Regrets, I've had a few. They asked him if he'd put shoes on that day. He'd put on pants, but how about the shoes?

And Cameron said no. He hadn't had shoes on when he'd gone from his bedroom to the children's bedroom and out the door. And investigators were like, he did have shoes on? No, that's not what they were thinking. So he didn't have shoes on. But his feet weren't burned so but if he was no he said he stood up i was gonna say if he said he was crawling around their thinking was

if this is a naturally occurring fire, if the fire happened by accident, then your feet would have to have been burned walking around. But if your feet aren't burned, it's probably because you set the thing... On your way back and out the front door. Right. Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right. Right. By the way, I hate this. All I can picture in the baby's room is Little London. I know. I know. It's fucking terrible.

It's amazing to do a case like this after you've given birth. Yes. Because your reaction is very different. Yes. Yeah. Ugh. Could you just not picture it before? Having a kid? Well, I mean, I. Yes. Yeah. Ugh. Could you just not picture it before? Well, I mean, I pictured kids, yeah, but it's different now that it's my kid that I'm picturing there. Yeah.

Yeah. But Cameron had an explanation. His feet weren't burned because at the time that he was in the house, the flames were along the tops of the walls, not the floor. That doesn't match the scene, though. It's what he's saying. Okay. Investigators were confident that Cameron was just lying. Lying, yes.

I mean, come on. He'd used some sort of accelerant on his own house, and then he'd lit his house on fire. Mm-hmm. But why? Insurance money? Hmm. Not bad, not bad. So this part was kind of tricky.

What the hell was the motive? They did have life insurance policies on the kids, but they were small policies. Homeowner's insurance, though. And Cameron and Stacy weren't even the beneficiaries. The beneficiary was Stacy's grandfather. Why? He was the one who took them out.

I think that's somewhat common. Like, Norm's grandma had little insurance policies on them. Didn't your grandparents have, like, a Gerber policy on you? Well, I don't think, I know that there was a life insurance policy on me when i was a kid a couple of them actually but i think i don't think they're you had to dodge murderers that's right left and right parents i don't remember my grandma did work for gerber for like a million years though oh really well then you for sure had a gerber policy come on you would think i would but that's not the names of the company.

I remember like there was one with Modern Woodsman, which I thought was so weird. Yeah, very odd. I don't remember the other one, but I remember it was Gerber. That sounds like a good dating site, doesn't it? Modern Woodsman? Come on. Come on. That's a free idea to anyone who wants it.

Million dollar idea. So police talked to Stacy, but she was like, look, Cameron hit me. He was abusive to me, but he never hit the kids. He wouldn't have done this. Is there homeowner's insurance?

I don't know. So that's obviously not the motive. All right. Well, that's interesting, though, because that seems like something that I should have uncovered. Because it seems like a really obvious thing. Part of me wonders if maybe they were renting the place, and that's why it doesn't come up.

So investigators looked into this and looked into this, and they decided that the motive was simply that Cameron was a sociopath. Well, that's a terrible motive. Well, but I mean, why do serial killers do what they do? You know, are there signs that he had been a sociopath? We'll get to that. We'll get to it. Children had cramped his style, so he decided to get rid of them i get what i don't know being overwhelmed with multiples like i i see that but

just one day setting them on fire no it's on fire no no yeah pretty weak motive. Yeah. Hmm. Is this this thing where you make me think that he did it all and then it turns out that he was wrongly convicted? I make you think that he did it all? Yeah, you've totally sold this case. Like, he's the...

You're the one who was like, did he do this? Did he do that detective brandy was on the case detective brandy knew that he'd used the accelerant all over the floor huh okay what's wrong detective you starting to second guess things well there's if there's no motive that's very concerning concerning yeah that maybe he didn't do it maybe that maybe the arson investigators got it wrong well he was a sociopath and kids cramped his style you know it's a terrible motive you know how it is kids cramp your style that's what you say when there's no when you can't find a motive that's not enough how dare you the prosecution would be so offended

to hear you talking like this so on jan January 8th, 1992, Cameron was arrested and charged with the murder of his three children. The assistant district attorney who was assigned to the case was John Jackson. John obviously knew that this was death penalty eligible, but he didn't want to go that route because in his mind and in my mind the death penalty doesn't deter criminals it's expensive as all get out and what if you're wrong yeah what if you're wrong you can release someone from prison but you can't unkill them and that's a fact i'm sorry to say is this is this foreshadowing this is foreshadowing you hate being wrong so much don't you i see it in your face you hate you hate it but john says his boss was like dude this man murdered his three children also welcome

to texas i mean you know don be so, so precious about the death penalty. So the death penalty was on the table. And Cameron got two state-appointed defense attorneys, David Martin and Robert Dunn. And one of the defense attorneys, David Martin, just openly admits that he thought Cameron Todd Willingham was guilty. Also, the evidence certainly pointed that way. And plus, a dude named Johnny Webb, who shared a jail cell with Cameron, came forward and was like,

hey, everybody, the dude just told me that he squirted lighter fluid all over his house, set it on fire. Talk about a no-brainer. Cameron Todd Willingham did it. I hate this so much. I hate it. What do you hate? He didn't do it, did he? What do you hate? What's the explanation? What do you mean? You heard the evidence. Okay, continue. So the prosecution approached the defense and they were like, hey guys, we've got a plea deal for you.

Evidently. So Stacey didn't believe that Cameron did this, but a lot of her family did. And there was a lot of push for like, we don't want a trial. This would be terrible. So they offer the plea deal. They're like, your guy, please deal. Please do. Pleads guilty.

And we'll take the death penalty off the table. He'll do life in prison. The defense team was pleased as punch. So they went to Cameron and they're like, hey, dude, got the deal of a lifetime for you. We suggest you take it. But Cameron said no. Because he didn't kill his kids. Didn't kill his kids. He wasn't going to he didn't kill his kids. Didn't kill his kids.

He wasn't going to plead guilty to killing his kids. And his attorneys were like, oh, boy, boy, you are dumb as a rock. You know, you clearly did this. The evidence shows you clearly did this. So they called up Cameron's dad and stepmom, and they're like, you've got to convince Cameron to take this deal. If he does not take this deal, he's going to be put to death.

I mean, there's no question. So they did their best, but Cameron was not swayed. He would not plead guilty. He did not do it. So in August of 1992, his trial began. And it lasted two days front line says three days but you know you get the idea yeah the prosecution argued that this was actually cameron's third attempt to kill his kids what they said he'd attempted to end all of stacy's pregnancies by kicking her, hoping she'd miscarry.

The prosecution. What? What? Well, that's not exactly the same. What do you mean? I mean, well, and how do they? I don't know. I think that's a pretty weak argument.

That makes him sound terrible. I bet it's effective to the jury. Oh, I'm sure it is. Does she testify that that happened? Well, I mean, they had police come out to the house for domestic violence. It happened. Okay. Now, how do you prove that he was kicking her to...

He was attempting to end the... Yes. To make her miscarry. That's what I mean. Yeah. Hmm. The prosecution obviously had a great case. They brought out Johnny Webb, the jailhouse.

I'm not defending that behavior. Yeah, you are. I'm not. You love abuse. I'm not. Just to clarify, I'm not defending that behavior. Gold star to all abusers. I think that's a gold strategy for the prosecution

because how do you prove that that was his intent? I think that seems like a weak argument. my assumption is that this was said in opening arguments and you know how opening arguments are you can kind of say whatever the fuck yeah yeah okay so they brought out johnny webb the jailhouse snitch and he was like yep one day i walked by cameron's cell we talked through the little food slot. And he told me that he intentionally set his house on fire. He'd used lighter fluid in the kid's room. And he poured it in the shape of a pentagram. Okay, well, this is getting ridiculous. Why? That's not true. He's just making this up. What's he getting out of this? What are you talking about? Are you going to get a deal with the prosecution?

Absolutely not. Uh-huh. Lesson sentence. Do you know what a pentagram means, Brandy? Yeah, it means he's... Satan! Yeah, it means he's Satan. You a fan of Satan, are you?

Hmm. Hmm. Yep. Pretty Satan-y. Pretty Satan-y. Yeah. Yep, pretty Satan-y. Pretty Satan-y. Yeah, and Cameron told Johnny that he did it because Stacy had hurt one of the kids. So Cameron set that fire to cover up the fact that Stacy hurt one of the kids. And did the pentagram, you know, just to be fancy with it.

You know, all hail Satan. And Diane Barbie and her daughter testified and of course douglas fogg and manuel vasquez were the stars of the show they were the experts manuel said he discovered more than 20 indicators of arson and that in his opinion cameron had started the fire which in my opinion is nuts that you can just speculate that someone started a fire. I mean, I can see how obviously you say, here are the indicators of arson. This was clearly arson in my expert opinion. But how can you just say, and I think it was him.

You don't know. Yeah. And the prosecutor was like, but why? Yeah. And Manuel said, to kill the little girls. and the prosecutor was like, but why? Yeah, why? And Manuel said, to kill the little girls. Okay, buddy. Okay. The defense didn't object to that?

I'm surprised you're so worried about the defense, Brandy, when he clearly did it, as you said. I'm concerned that he didn't do it. You've got concerns, do you? I do. This man who clearly did it as you said I'm concerned that he didn't do it you've got concerns do you I do this man who clearly did it I've got concerns the defense I mean napped their way through this whole thing I mean they really didn't do much at all evidently they tried to find their own expert witness to go against manuel and douglas but the one person they found agreed with the two guys and so i guess the defense threw their hands in the air and that was that

wow they called one witness it was a babysitter and like, yeah, I don't think he would have killed his kids. That's it? Defense. There's a defense for you. Cameron wanted to take the stand, but his lawyers told him he shouldn't. I mean, he probably shouldn't. Probably shouldn't, but I mean, can you get a worse defense than this? No, and it might humanize him

it might the jury deliberated for about an hour and they found him guilty of course of course i mean are you kidding me of course they found him guilty did they send him to death in the sentencing phase stacy and some other family members begged the jury not to give Cameron the death penalty. Interestingly, when Stacy was speaking, the prosecution was like, yeah, well, if he's such a great guy, then explain that tattoo of his. I'm paraphrasing, obviously. It's a big skull with a big serpent wrapped around it. What's that about it's a tattoo yeah but brandy it's a skull okay with a serpent oh i didn't hear that part okay no it's just a tattoo so she said it's just a tattoo and the prosecutor said quote he just likes skulls and snakes is that what you're saying

Skulls and snakes. Is that what you're saying? Yep. And she said, no, he just had, he got a tattoo on him. Yeah. Then the prosecution called two medical experts to confirm their theory that Cameron was a sociopath. Okay. What? That's the worst motive. I disagree with you okay so are these experts going to lay out past behavior that proves he's a sociopath

no i disagree with you that a person's psyche or mental state is not a good motive. Like I understand we all want a story. We want a story that makes sense. Yeah. Insurance makes sense. Greed makes sense. Revenge makes sense for murder.

But sometimes people are just terrible people. I know. But do you start being a terrible person by just waking up and burning your three kids to death probably not yeah that's but that's not what the prosecution's saying right my question is are they going to bring witnesses that prove that he has had past behavior that exhibits he's a sociopath well they've already talked about the abuse i'm sure they've talked about that doesn't prove he's a sociopath fair okay but if some were if someone were diagnosed as a sociopath, would that be enough for you in a case like that?

I don't think so. It has to be a motive that you understand? I'd say I would want to see an escalation. Yes, okay. Yes, these people are saying, saying yes we've looked at whatever we've diagnosed him as a sociopath um but then i want to see a pattern of behavior an escalation that led to this moment for me to believe that more so if they buy into that motive so if they have that then that's enough yeah for you to believe that as a motive. Yes. Okay. Interesting.

I agree with that. Yeah. But just in saying, yeah, we've diagnosed him as a sociopath. Like, I don't think you start being a sociopath by, same thing I've already said. Yeah. That's not your first act of being a sociopath is murdering your three kids. Mm-hmm. So the prosecution calls these two medical experts. Neither medical expert had ever met with cameron but uh that didn't matter that's a problem oh no you don't have to meet the patient

to give them the diagnosis yes you do oh no no no the first guy was tim g Gregory, and he had a master's degree in marriage and family issues. He was a family counselor. Yeah. Which I'm sorry. A dude with a master's degree who's never met Cameron? No. No, you're not the expert, buddy. No.

Not even close. No, you're not the expert, buddy. No. Not even close. So what the prosecution did was they showed Tim music posters from Cameron's house. Led Zeppelin, Iron Maiden, that kind of stuff. Well, you didn't mention those, Kristen. He's for sure a good joke.

And Tim was like, mm-hmm, yes, yes. There's a lot of violence and death in these images focus on dying yes he told the jury many times individuals that have a lot of this type of art have interest in satanic type activities there you go no bada bing bada boomilty as sin. You like Led Zeppelin. Oh my gosh, I'm having flashbacks to West Memphis 3. Yeah, it's Satanic Panic. Yes. The dumbest thing on earth. Oh my gosh. Drew a pentagram in lighter fluid in the children's bedroom.

Enjoyed Led Zeppelin and Iron Maiden. Therefore, Satan worshiper and murders his three kids. Holy hell. Yeah. The other expert witness was James Grigson. He was a forensic psychiatrist. He was the go-to guy for prosecutors who wanted their defendant on death row. In fact, he'd been nicknamed Dr. Death,

which is disgusting. For the record, this jackass has since been expelled from the American Psychiatric Association for repeatedly diagnosing people without meeting them first. Yeah, because you can't do that. Evidently, you can. Well, because you can't do that. Evidently you can. Not without getting expelled from the psychiatric whatever's.

I doubt everyone. They should get a better name. The American Psychiatric Whatever's. They gave up. Gave up. So he would not meet with people,

diagnose them, and then he would tell a jury with 100 certainty that the person would definitely commit another violent crime so of course what do you think the jury does lock them up yeah yeah but he got expelled from the american psychiatric whatever association in 1995 and this sentencing took place in 1992 so when he told the jury that cameron was an extremely severe sociopath and that no treatment or medication could help him fuck they of course sentenced him to death. Of course they did. Stacey divorced him a year later but she maintained that he was innocent.

The front line episode I thought was a little a little critical. I don't know. There was just a vibe about like the fact that Stacey divorced him and didn't visit him in prison. But he was abusive to her. So like let's calm down him and didn't visit him in prison. But he was abusive to her. So, like, let's calm down, you know.

She didn't say, hey, he murdered our kids when she didn't think that. But, you know. His parents lived in Oklahoma, and they'd come to visit him about once a month. I think it was a six-hour drive there and back. And they couldn't afford hotels most of the time. So mean it was it was a real trek for them but it was a pretty lonely existence for cameron he made some friends but they were obviously put to death and for the most part he was surrounded by people who according to, he had no business being around. Cold-blooded murderers, serial killers.

It was awful. He had, I didn't write this part down. He had a cellmate at one point who had severe cognitive challenges. And he got raped and Cameron was just like who who rapes someone who's mentally challenged it just it messed with him so much to be in that environment years passed and a funny thing happened elements of the case against Cameron Todd Willingham began to fall apart. A French teacher and playwright named Elizabeth Gilbert, not the eat, pray, love lady, different lady, began corresponding with Cameron. And she was struck by how thoughtful and genuine he seemed.

So she decided to look into his case. She talked to Stacey and Stacey said that she was certain that on the morning of the fire, the space heater in the children's bedroom had been on. She said that more than once she'd caught Amber putting things too close to the space heater. She wondered if Amber had put something too close or messed with the space heater in some way and that that accident had caused the fire. Also, in the New Yorker article, Stacey is described as like being pale and a little chubby and wearing a lot of makeup. And I was like, calm down sir wow yes

do a phone interview with this guy my god she looked at the case files and she was like huh these witnesses seem to change their minds between when they first saw Cameron at the fire and when he became a suspect. Then there was the jailhouse snitch, Johnny Webb. So she met with Johnny. Johnny was not doing great, probably hadn't been doing well for a very long time. His memory was spotty, he suffered from PTSD, and in his own words, he had a mental impairment. PTSD, and in his own words, he had a mental impairment. The prosecutor admitted that he thought Johnny was an unreliable kind of guy, but he thought Johnny was telling the truth about Cameron because what motive did he have to lie?

Hmm. Okay. I'll give you a motive yeah johnny was supposed to be in prison for 15 years but as soon as he was up for parole the prosecutor lobbied for him to get out early okay there it is and you know then johnny went back in almost immediately later for cocaine but for the record the prosecutor said that he lobbied on behalf of johnny because johnny had been targeted by the aryan brotherhood that's why it had nothing to do with any kind of secret deals with this case everybody calm down put your pentagrams down okay over the years johnny has recanted his statement against against Cameron and then recanted the recantation.

When the reporter from The New Yorker interviewed Johnny about the case, Johnny said, My memory is in bits and pieces. I was on a lot of medication at the time. Everyone knew that. The statute of limitations has run out on perjury right holy shit oh my gosh but the biggest thing was that the methods used by arson investigators yes get to this please well you already solved it through your excellent arson investigation. No, I want to know. Why were they so adamant that accelerant had been used if it hadn't? Tell me. Why do you think?

I don't know. For real. Think about it. Why do you think they were so wrong? Well, maybe they were underqualified to be doing. Very good. Yeah. well maybe they're underqualified to be doing very good yeah so all this stuff is happening and cameron still has this point of this court appointed lawyer david martin david sucks david absolutely sucks he did some appeal work for cameron but he didn't give two shits about the guy and cameron

knew it he told his parents you don't know what it's like to have lawyers who don't believe you're innocent and david's very open about the fact that he totally believes cameron did it later when the new yorker reporter talked to david david said there were no grounds for reversal and the verdict was absolutely the right one about the case he said shit it's incredible that anyone's even thinking about it wow grounds for reversal though ineffective counsel right yeah i would think so yeah cameron eventually got a new attorney named walter reeves and walter was like holy shit your previous attorneys were terrible so walter wrote cameron a writ of habeas corpus but it didn't get the job done walter's attack

had been all about procedural questions about whether the trial court had made errors that could result in a new trial. He didn't try questioning whether Johnny Webb or the arson experts had been full of shit. But they kept working. They kept filing appeals, this time at the federal level, and they kept getting denied. In 2003, they took this appeal all the way to the Supreme Court.

But they declined to hear the case. Oh, shit. That was our most joyless Supreme Court. Finally, after years of appeals and years on death row, the state of Texas gave him a death date. Cameron Todd Willingham would be put to death at 6 p.m. on February 17, 2004. He had one

card left to play. He could appeal to the governor of Texas. Proclamancy? Or pardon? Rick Perry. Oh, okay. Friend of the podcast, Rick Perry. Yeah gonna be taken kindly to the okay sounds hopeless sounds hopeless but here's the thing a month before cameron was scheduled to die this total badass named dr gerald hurst found out about cameron's case cameron and his relatives

had been begging this guy to take a look at the case because gerald hurst was the arson expert oh oh good so a real expert in here now um not just like a real expert. This guy. The foremost expert. Is that a word? Foremost? Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about Gerald. He got his PhD in chemistry from Cambridge. Ever heard of it? When he got out into the workforce.

What? I was going to do a bad English accent. Oh, no. Don't. He worked in weaponry. So he was the chief scientist at a bunch of creepy companies where he designed like rockets and firebombs and all kinds of horrible stuff. And after doing that shit for God knows how long, eventually he was like, maybe it's morally wrong to be in this line of work. So he quit and he started inventing stuff.

He invented the Mylar balloon and he invented like an improved. He invented the mylar balloon and he invented um like an improved invented the mylar balloon yes the mylar balloon yes is that your favorite kind of balloon the same mylar balloon we use today here's the deal this dude is super fucking rich because he gets all these royalties off of like the things he's invented so he can take these cases pro bono. No problem. Hmm. In his spare time, he became an expert witness in arson cases. Because, like, the dude knows a ton about fires.

Yeah. And what causes them. Yeah. You see, hold on. What? Before I get too excited. Okay. Is he going to explain the scene to us?

Yes. Okay. Yes. Don't worry, Brandy. Okay. All right all right i'm getting excited now even though you already explained i obviously was wrong thank you for bringing it back up this this case is so uncomfortable because like the second you started to go down the wrong path i was like oh brandy's gonna hate this yeah i hate it there's nothing you hate more than being wrong. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. So when Gerald found out about other people in this expert witness field, he was like,

hold the phone. Am I the only one with a PhD? Am I the only actual expert here? Turns out a lot of arson investigators have a high school education and they maybe have like a certification that's a 40-hour course wow yep so a lot of them are firefighters yeah but i'm sorry those are different skill sets putting out a fire versus figuring out how the fire came about seems very different yes yeah in one case you should be a scientist in another case you should be a really hot buff dude or woman or woman but you gotta be hot and

you gotta be buff i mean imagine if you're not buff holding on to that fire hose. Or not hot. I mean, some uggo comes and offers to carry me down the ladder. I'm like, nope, send the hot one. Send Mr. January. Don't you think, though, that the level of hotness increases once they are a firefighter? Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. This is our advice to you. If you are a five right now, go become a firefighter.

You're going to be at least an eight, right? That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So on top of that, a lot of these arson investigators considered their work to be more art than science. Oh, okay. So they didn't really follow, you know, scientific methods because it's more of a finger-painty situation, you know. By the year 2000, courts were starting to say, hey, take your art elsewhere. This is a court of law.

You're going to need to follow scientific methods this by the way it reminds me of bite mark analysis yeah do you remember like how all of a sudden people were like that's not super scientific yeah so they've got to follow these scientific methods but even then it's still kind of shaky because okay look into the future okay what do you think we currently use that that will become oh um no longer testimony from police where there's no body cam i know that's not exactly the same route but i think that's one of those things where um you know, I'm sure that's held a lot of weight for a long time.

And right now, if a police officer didn't have a body cam on or like, oopsies, something happened to it. Yeah. Take that mess elsewhere. What do you think? I don't know. Fingerprints? I think fingerprints will still. mean i guess you know what i think it's probably something with like partial prints and stuff like that like actually

yeah yeah okay so like i said they've got to follow these scientific methods now but it's still the level of skill really varies across the board because obviously just because you tell somebody hey you've got to follow better methods doesn't make them any smarter you know but anyway gerald was like yeah this case is nuts i'll take it pro bono and he found a whole bunch of errors brandy no imagine that let's start with the shady shit so the fire marshal manuel vasquez who testified at cameron's trial said that he'd investigated between 1200 and 1500 fires in his career that's a lot of fires and almost all of them had been arson oh what that's what

gerald said gerald's like that can't possibly be correct. Yeah. So apparently the number should be more at like 50%. Okay. He was also skeptical about Manuel's claim that the fire had burned fast and hot because someone had used an accelerant. But here's the thing. Accelerants obviously make a fire burn faster, but they don't impact the temperature. So apparently that was kind of like. There's a lot of things in arson investigations that are considered common knowledge, but aren't actually scientifically accurate.

And that's one of those things. Uh-huh. Gerald was able to refute all of the evidence that an accelerant had been used in the Willingham house fire. For example, they thought the patterns that they saw in that glass in the Willingham home indicated that an accelerant had been present. What? Is it related to him trying to break the window from the outside? In what way? Well, remember he got the stick and he was trying to break the window. So maybe that what way well remember he got the stick and he was trying to break the window so maybe that caused the spider webbing rather than no okay um but it's

funny when i first read that part i thought and i don't know if this is correct but fires thrive on some oxygen right and so you're letting in more oxygen, which, again, not a PhD, but here we go. So there had been that spider webbing pattern. And for a long time, people thought that that was an indicator of sudden heat. But it's actually an indicator of sudden cooling. Sudden heat. But it's actually an indicator of sudden cooling. Like what happens when a house catches fire and the fire department shows up and suddenly starts putting it out?

Yeah. That's why those patterns exist. But what about the poor patterns? The V-shaped burn marks? Yeah. What about those? What about that pentagram? And the fact that Cameron had been able to run out of the house without burning his feet. How do you make sense of that?

Yeah. How do you? Well, Gerald remembered a fire that took place in 1990. It's sort of a famous fire for arson investigators because they learned so much from it. So here's what happened. investigators because they learned so much from it so here's what happened it's 1990 a man was holding his three-year-old standing outside of his house in jacksonville florida the house was on fire six people died including the man's wife okay this case is so creepily similar to the case against Cameron. Low burn marks on the wall. Poor patterns on the floor.

V-shaped burn patterns. Away from where the man thought that the fire started. The man had previously been arrested for domestic violence. Neighbors at the scene said he wasn't emotional enough. Mm-hmm. So he was charged with six murders. Here's where the case

goes a different direction from Cameron's. Investigators decided to do an experiment. There was this abandoned house right next door to the house that had burned. It was very similar

to the burned house. So they set it on fire without an accelerant, fully anticipating that it would look totally different from the house next door. Because obviously the house next door, there'd been an accelerant present. But that's not what happened. Where there was no accelerant, they found pore patterns and puddles and charring on the base of the walls and V-shaped burns away from where the fire had actually started. Turns out, the for-sure signs of arson can actually occur naturally on their own. Pore patterns were from oxygen coming into the house.

Cameron's feet hadn't been burned because if there hadn't been accelerant on the floor, the floor would have been relatively cool before the fire reached its flashpoint. Suddenly, Cameron's story made a lot more sense. The only thing that Gerald thought seemed like it could be arson was the fact that they'd found mineral spirits on the front porch of the willingham home but he was like wait why weren't there mineral spirits inside the house yeah you're telling me this guy used an accelerant outside where he could be seen but not inside doesn't make any sense but you know what does make sense the willinghams kept their grill on the porch and next to it they kept some charcoal lighter fluid yep so gerald was like well obviously when the firefighters put out the fire

they probably inadvertently spread that lighter fluid from the melted container all over the porch. Gerald was convinced that Cameron had been put in prison thanks to junk science. Oh, shit. Yep. There was no evidence of arson. The fire had likely been accidental accidental probably from the space heater but there was no time for dilly-dallying i tried to think of a less dorky way to phrase that yeah but i was running out of time and i decided no time for me dilly-dally no time for them gerald wrote his report as fast as he could and turned it in

for the first time in a long time cameron had hope gerald was the arson guy his research had gotten a lot of people exonerated but cameron todd willingham wouldn't be one of them hmm the board members who decide these cases they don't technically actually have to review all the stuff. They just cast their vote in by facts. Are they going to put this guy to death? The Innocence Project dug into this and discovered that the board received the report, but didn't seem to do much with it. My understanding is that they view their role,

or did, hopefully things have changed, as kind of like, are there any glaring errors in this case? Nope, okay, let's kill the guy. So, Cameron was going to die. He wrote a letter to Stacy, talked about their daughters, and how he hoped that someday the truth will be known and my name will be cleared. She came to visit him in prison, and he asked if he could be buried next to their daughters.

Oh, my God. But Stacy said no. She didn't believe him anymore? Mm-mm. For a long time, she defended him. But over time, her view had changed. And she didn't know about this new expert's findings. And she'd come to the conclusion that he'd murdered their children.

So she wouldn't allow him to be buried next to them oh my gosh then on february 16th the day before he was scheduled to be executed prosecutors filed an affidavit signed by stacy's brother it said that st Stacy told him that during that conversation with Cameron at the prison, Cameron confessed to murdering the kids. Oh, no. Cameron was furious. And, I mean, come on. That didn't happen. There's no way that happened.

It was a total lie. happen. There's no way that happened. It was a total lie. The next day on February 17th, 2004, Cameron Todd Willingham was brought in to be murdered by the state of Texas. He didn't want his parents to witness it, so they didn't. He also didn't want Stacy to witness it, but she was there. In his final words, he declared his innocence. At some point, he noticed that Stacy was there, and she came up to the window, and he said, You bitch. And he said he hoped she would rot in hell. rotten hell friends think that he blamed her for the fact that he hadn't gotten like a 30-day stay

or anything and then he was murdered by the state of texas so his parents hadn't been allowed to touch him in 12 years but they were able to get over to you know where his body was and still touch him while he was still warm oh my gosh you guys brandy's crying i hate this so much it's it's horrible it's horrible afterward they took his ashes and they secretly spread them by the graves of the kids oh this case unfortunately got a lot of attention but it was just way too late yeah in december of 2004 reporters for the chicago tribune published an excellent investigative piece and the junk science that led to Cameron's conviction. Two years later, the Innocence Project commissioned four top fire investigators

to review all of the arson evidence that had been used against Cameron, and they all agreed that all the indicators of arson had been scientifically proven to be invalid. Oh, my gosh. In 2005, the Texas government created a commission to investigate possible misconduct or errors by forensic scientists, and Cameron's case was one of the first that they reviewed. And the fire scientist who reviewed it was just disgusted by it. He said the investigators had no scientific reason to conclude arson.

They'd ignored any evidence that went against what they believed. Wow. Like, they didn't do a good job by today's standards, but they didn't even do a good job by those standards. Oh, my gosh. The state of Texas had executed a man who they couldn't prove committed a crime. Yeah. This was very controversial, and Rick Perry was up for re-election. Just before the commission's final report was scheduled to be presented,

the chairman of that commission was fired. Wow. Two more people on the commission were also fired. And then Rick Perry put a friend in charge of the commission. Of course he did. Years later, in 2010, Johnny Webb, the jailhouse informant, came forward and recanted his testimony again. Of course, he made it all up. He said that prosecutor John Jackson had pressured him into making that statement and offered him a secret deal in exchange for testifying against Cameron. What's Stacey got to say about all this?

I don't know. Yeah, I probably wouldn't be making any statements. I feel bad for her. I do too. You know? Oh, I do too. That would just be terrible. Yeah.

Oh, I do too. That would just be terrible. Yeah. The Innocence Project looked into this and found documentation that backed up Johnny's story. John Jackson, of course, says he never made any kind of deal with Johnny. But in March of 2015, the Texas State Bar filed disciplinary action against John Jackson for not disclosing information on his deal with Johnny.

And that's the horrible story. That was fucking terrible. It's the most terrifying story. I was talking to Norman about it the other day. Sorry if I'm making you cry. It's okay. And I think the thing that makes it stick with you is like, what's the worst thing in the world?

Okay, well, losing your kid. What's worse than that? Losing all losing your kid. What's worse than that? Losing all of your kids. What's worse than that? Losing all of them while you're there and you can't do anything. What's worse than that? Everyone thinks you're their murderer. What's worse than that?

Being executed for their murder that you did not commit. Yeah. Holy shit. executed for their murder that you did not commit yeah holy shit there was one thing that he later later came clean about about the fire he admitted that he hadn't gone into the kids room he said that the fire was so hot, it was so painful, and he just didn't want people to think that he hadn't tried to save his kids. Yeah. Which I think that's one of those things everyone thinks, oh, for my kid.

You have no idea until you're in the situation. No. And I just think it's probably humanly impossible. It was terrible. Yeah, it's the worst case. Yeah. It's terrifying on so many levels because it's one thing. I mean, it's terrifying enough

if they've got junk science. But it wasn't just junk science. It was this prosecutor making this creepy deal. And, I mean, clearly these witnesses had been coached a little. Mm-hmm. Mm.

That makes me sick to my stomach. I know. I hate it. Do you need a minute? No. Okay. Jesus. That was fucking terrible.

I have never heard of that case. I can't believe you've never heard of it. Like I said, I heard about it years ago, and I've never wanted to think about it again, but it pops into your head because it's the worst thing. It's the worst thing that could happen. Because it's the worst thing. It's the worst thing that could happen. Yeah.

And the interesting thing about this New Yorker article is he goes into a lot more detail about other cases that are similar. And it just, it freaks you out. Yeah. Because it makes you wonder how many people have been put to death or are just sitting in prison for these arson cases. Yeah. Where the experts were people who had no idea what they were talking about. Because, yeah, you see what looks to be poor patterns. Yeah, that sounds terrible.

But it turns out it's just like the oxygen pattern. Yeah. It's just a flashpoint. It reaches a flashpoint and it's kind of random. Oh, unless it's not random, unless it's kind of random. Oh. Unless it's not random. Unless it's a pentagram. Yeah. Exactly.

Because of Satan. Because of Satan. Satan is, you know, the reason. Satan's panties. Satan's panties? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We used to call red underwear Satan's panties. You know why? It's from a movie. Misconjuliality, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We used to call red underwear Satan's panties.

You know why? It's from a movie. It's from a movie. It's from a movie. Yeah. Oh. Oh, yeah. We used to say that all the time.

God, we were cool. Yeah, the what's-her-butt stole panties because her mom wouldn't buy them from her. Yeah. So they were Satan's panties. Wouldn't buy them for her, not from her. I think she had panties for sale. She had a trench coat opened up with panties all over them. We've said panties away't buy them for her not from her she had panties she had a trench coat opened up with panties all over we've said panties away too many times i hate the word

panties how about moist oh moist you know what i was thinking about that case the way i did it i did it in a brandy way yeah normally when i have someone who's innocent like i can't stand the you totally presented it as if he was guilty yeah yeah i presented it the brandy way you did sucks doesn't it i hated it little revenge for you i hated it so much yeah it's awful it's awful you want to talk about kidnapping i hope it's lighter than what i just presented so much lighter did we freaky friday what happened okay this is a celebrity case oh really yeah you don't know who jeremy london is no okay he's a low-level celebrity i'm like should i know him okay i'm not surprised you don't know him okay let's Let's talk about a kidnapping. All right.

It was June 10th, 2010, and Jeremy London was outside the Bahama Hotel and Apartments located at... Oh, oh, oh. Hold the phone. Okay. 2323 North Palm Canyon Drive, Palm Springs, California. Okay. Okay.

Hold on. Looks kind of shady. Oh closed it's closed down now palm canyon drive sounds very nice sounds very nice this is okay apparently there's a sketchy part of palm springs and jeremy london was in it you know it makes me feel kind of nice there's sketchy places everywhere, including Palm Springs. I mean, they've got the palm trees. You know, they've got everything. Yeah. And yet here is this place that looks like, you know, a lot of people have been murdered here. Just saying.

So on this particular day, Jeremy London was attempting to replace a flat tire on his car. Oh, on this road? Yes. This four lane road? Yes. Oh. Kristen, does the name Jeremy London sound any kind of familiar to you? Wow, you really can't adjust.

If it's in the script, you're reading it. No, Brandy, I haven't heard of him. Should I have heard of him? No. So he's an actor. He's known mostly for his roles on two late 90s, early 2000s TV shows. Okay, what are they? He played the role of Griffin Holbro holbrook uh-huh on 89 episodes

of party of five oh i never watched i never watched party five either and then he played chandler hampton on 37 episodes of seventh heaven oh i did this is what i know him from okay he was like an associate pastor oh sorry could you say that one more time you want to slurp that louder i'm so sorry i thought that beautiful cup someone made for us yes okay thank you for your compliment on this cup that i'm slurping out of they came from ashley minnick and stephanie dunan uh they're beautiful tumblers with our names on them and our logo i oh yeah thank you ladies thank you so much appreciate it yes and now I'm slurping out of it yeah stop slurping out could I get more in this for fuck's sake

you know what you can't get frustrated with me because you're the real monster here because you thought Cameron Todd Willingham did it oh ouch uh-huh yeah it cuts so deep you were like oh burns along the base of the walls. I know what that means. Oh, I know all about it. No, here's what this tells you. What? Is that it's not fucking science. Those guys weren't using science.

It was just like stupid things that people think they know about fucking fires. Yeah. I'm as qualified as they were. Yeah. Well, you got to take that 40 hour course. they were yeah well you gotta take that 40 hour course but it really does it's so disturbing because again how many things are like that yeah well i hate it thank you i hated that case you're right i hated how you did it i did it the way you have done cases to me, Brandy. Sucks, doesn't it? Look at that face.

I wish you guys could see her face. The facial journey. You're right, but you're totally right. Yeah, it sucks, doesn't it? It makes you feel like you shouldn't react to things. Mm-hmm. All right, back to Jeremy London. Isn't it amazing that in a course about...

Case about Cameron... Did you say intercourse? I say intercourse i said case and then no so isn't it weird that in a case about cameron todd william and all the corruption and stuff you're the worst one in this oh thank you yes thank you appreciate that fuck brandy it's okay uh no it's not it's all terrible anyway back to seventh heaven remember when jessica beale cut her hair oh yeah sorry that's all i have to add uh jeremy london also appeared in mall rats and several other movies most of which appear to be made for tv movies and the majority of which i have never heard of i checked out his imdb page a bunch of shit i never heard okay um so he played an associate

pastor yeah that means he worked with reverend camden with the child molester you know that guy? Yeah. Okay. Stephen, what's his name? I don't know what his name is, but I can picture him. I mean, we've got our Google machines right here. I guess we could look it up. I am DBM. Seven, seven.

Yeah, Stephen Collins. I didn't make it up. He's a, what are you calling him? Chilmo? Yeah, Chilmo. I didn't make it up. He's a... What do you call him? Chilmo?

No, Chilmo. That's when, you know, you don't have the time to call someone a child molester. There's no dilly-dallying. Okay, anyway, he appeared in Mallrats, a bunch of other shit I never heard of. Seems his career peaked with those two TV shows. No Shade. Jeremy Lennon. That's more than I've ever done.

Yeah, really. I hate it when people are like, oh, man, for TV movies. What movies have you done, ma'am? Yeah, none. Side note. Yeah? Jeremy should not be confused with his identical twin brother, Jason London. Okay.

Who appeared in Dazed and Confused. Oh. So this is actually how I was reminded of this case. So I was watching a little movie that I used to love in high school called Grind. It's about these four skateboarding dudes. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I was reminded of this case. So I was watching a little movie that I used to love in high school called Grind. It's about these four skateboarding dudes. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Adam Brody's in it. Uh-huh. Anyway, in it, Jason London plays a professional skater named Jimmy Wilson. And I was like, hey, isn't that that dude who that thing happened to? And so then I had to look it up. And I was like, oh, it's not the dude. It was that dude's twin brother. Brandy, you get a little glow. Even today, years later,

when you talk about boys who skateboard, you... I love skater boys. Just like Avril Lavigne. He was a skater boy. She said, see you later, boy. I was watching that movie and I was like, yeah, these

skater boys are hot. Did you ever hang out at the skateboard park? No. Why are you making that face? I wouldn't have done that. Because I couldn't actually skateboard and somebody might make me get on a skateboard and then I'd be embarrassed. Yeah, but all you wanted to do was just sit and watch like a creep because

I've shown up in a trench coat, binoculars. Just park out there. No, but I did enjoy Skateboard Boys. Those little flat shoes. The very large pants. Yeah. Had several pairs of Etnies myself. Just in case you were ever forced onto a skateboard.

I wore lots of skateboarding clothes. Never got on a skateboard ever. I wore studded belts because I thought they were super cool. Yeah, you did wear a lot. Yeah, you looked good in them. Thank you. Thank you. I would be terrified to get on a skateboard.

But not terrified of a studded belt. I think I had a studded belt too, which was not on brand for me. Not on brand for you, no. I not terrified of a studded belt. I think I had a studded belt too, which was not on brand for me. Not on brand for you, I was trying out a different identity,

I think. I also had lots of vans, but the skateboard kind, not the flat kind. Oh, okay. They are different kinds. Okay, are they? They are.

Yeah, anyway. Anyway, in conclusion conclusion brandy was cool so stop asking about it that's not what i'm proving here i think what i'm proving is i was a poser anyway back to june 10th did you ever think about getting on a skateboard yeah i mean i tried it a couple times and my center of i have no balance no balance. Did you just fall right off? Yeah, or I just got too nervous to pick up the other leg. See, I think that would be my thing is like just the nerves. I'm just too nervous. I'm just walking along with the one leg. I've never put both feet up on the board. Did Dan skateboard? Am I making that up?

No, Dan didn't. No. Okay. Wait, which Dan? My brother Dan or our friend Dan? Yeah, your brother Dan. I know our friend Dan did not get on here. No, my brother Dan did not skateboard.

He had a scooter. Okay. Remember Razor scooters? Yes. And so similar things they would do shit with scooters that you would do, like, you know, you'd have to do the flip, the kickflip. Yeah, yeah, kick flip yeah yeah all that stuff but no he never had a skateboard okay all right he seemed like maybe he would have had a skateboard like boys in the neighborhood had them and like all of the boys in the neighborhood all hung out together but yeah you stayed back with your

trench coat and binoculars no No. Like a totally normal person. I wasn't watching any Boys in the Neighborhood. Okay. Anyway. I'm sorry. You are so annoyed with me this episode. It's June 10th, 2010. Jeremy London is changing his tire when he's approached by three guys

they offer to help him all they want in return is a ride home jeremy's like awesome yeah because he's obviously struggling with this tire uh-huh um and the guys are like yeah we'll totally help you out he's like great you help me out and I'll help you out. Excellent. So Jeremy gets his tire changed and it's time to hold up his end of the bargain. But shortly after getting into the car with the men. Is that like the breaking news? Like we interrupt this. Yeah, we interrupt.

We interrupt this episode to bring you breaking news. Bring me. What's the breaking news news half of my case didn't record more than half one fifth of my case recorded uh norman who we hire for his looks alone um thought his laptop was charged. Well, he plugged the charger into the computer. Uh-huh. The charger just wasn't plugged into the wall. Oh, my gosh. I didn't realize that's what it was. Yes.

You know what? I played a tragic role in this. You did? You may notice there's a new lamp there. Yeah. And when I brought that lamp over, I unplugged everything. Oh, gosh. brought that lamp over i unplugged everything oh gosh so um yeah we we carried on after the laptop died finished brandy's case did questions from the discord supreme court

inductions bing bang boom whole thing and um we're back at it again this time i have an adult beverage to get me through the troubles here's's, okay, here's the great thing. Is we found out right away that it didn't record. So we're able to jump right back in. Unlike every other time we've screwed up where it's like, oh, days later. Hey, remember that case we covered? We got to do it again. Is this a theme?

Will we ever get better at this? No, it's just always going to happen. Are we going to be on episode like 500? I hope we make it to episode 500. That sounds amazing. Well, no, of course we're going to happen. Are we going to be on episode, like, 500? I hope we make it to episode 500. That sounds amazing. Well, no, of course we're going to make it to 500. But, like, will we still be fucking up at 500? Oh, 100%.

We'd lose the charm. That's right. That's right. Here's the deal, Kristen. Hmm. You know the outcome of this case now. Oh, I'm going to act surprised. Can you do it profesh?

Can you be profesh? Brandi, I'm the best in the biz. That's why I have you as my podcast partner. I go around unplugging laptops. Beep, beep, beep. Hold on. I got to do a quick text message. Yeah, let your mother know that.

David picked London up, so that's good. Oh, okay. Well, good. Your baby is okay. The baby is taken care of all right it's important for newborns to learn to fend for themselves when their mom's podcast stops recording she wants to go to college someday probably so she needs me to do well on this podcast yeah absolutely yeah how old is she now? A month and a half?

Come on. Six weeks. I think by six weeks, I was already talking and walking. Probably. Probably. I think she's going to be an early mover. What makes you say that? She's already, like, during tummy time, she's already up, like, pushing up.

Yeah. And she's pulling her knees up but she can't yeah she's gonna be an early mover for sure it's gonna be running all over the place and she's just grown like a weed she's now giant she was tiny now she's huge she is now a monster she's a monster baby that's right just took her took her six weeks there. Okay, so tell me about this case I've never heard of before. Yeah, okay. So I'm going to do a quick recap of where we left off. Yeah, please.

Okay. So Jeremy has just had these three guys help him change his tire, and now it's his turn to pay them back and give them a ride home. Oh, my gosh. That's where it cut off? Yes. I'm so sad because I sounded like such a genius because I correctly predicted everything. Brandi, back me up.

I'm a genius. Kristen did see this coming a mile away. Whatever that means. Yeah, they don't know. They don't know. So everybody gets in the car. Everything's going great. Jeremy's giving these three guys a ride home.

All of a sudden, one of them pulls a gun and puts it to Jeremy's head these three guys a ride home all of a sudden one of them pulls a gun and puts it to Jeremy's head man forces him into the back seat of his own car and for the next several hours they drove around and forced him at gunpoint to drink large amounts of alcohol and smoke and ingest various drugs, including but not limited to. My goodness. Methamphetamines? Question mark? Wait, why question mark?

Crack? Question mark? Because Jeremy is not sure what they forced him to take. It was just like a grab bag of drugs. They gave him a pipe and forced him at gunpoint to smoke it. Yeah. uh-huh and uh and forced him at gunpoint to smoke it yeah at one point he was like guys i'm a recovering addict please don't make me do this um and they said you're a recovering addict then uh you know what you're doing so it turns out so jeremy had had kind of like a pretty public battle with drugs and alcohol he'd actually been like on celebrity rehab.

And at this point, he had been clean since the previous September. We good? Is it recording? I'm just so paranoid. So paranoid now? So paranoid. Guys, that was the sound of me leaning over and looking at them. Why are we never paranoid when we need to be paranoid?

Exactly. You know what? Every single time when I've done my paranoid exactly you know what every single time when i've done my paranoid check it's always fine yeah but like today man kept on cruising talking to ourselves yeah so hours go by and jeremy is being held with these three men um they are joyriding through town. They're taking him through their neighborhood. He's buying drugs.

They bought drugs and alcohol and he's passing out alcohol to like all these random people, friends of theirs, random people in the street, you know, whatever. Kristen, what's that for? Okay, so I wagged,

gave the wag of the finger. I'm just going to recap what I said before when I was just talking to you evidently and no one else, which is the story. I don't know. I feel like if you've, you don't have a car,

but you've gone to the expense of getting drugs and alcohol. First of all, I can't imagine being super willing to share with anybody. Right. Let alone forcing someone that makes no sense to me okay but does it change your mind if you know that they found a large of money amount of money like six thousand dollars in the car and they used that money to buy the drugs and alcohol. Does that change your mind?

No. I can imagine offering. Uh-huh. If it's found money. Forcing. Why would you force? Yeah. So Jeremy's story is that this was a rental car

and that he had this large amount of money on him. I think, and I don't have this written down. So everybody drink. Hey, that's my thing. Wait, you guys right now I am drinking, but Brandy is not. I think I must force her to drink. I will force you. No, what a weird thing to do, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So he claims that this is a rental car, which I think that story checks out. This is a rental car which i think that story checks out this is a rental car he had a large amount of money somewhere around six thousand dollars on him because he was getting repairs done in his car and was planning to go pay for those repairs the kidnappers found that money and used it to buy a large amount of drugs and alcohol and then joy ride it around with him against his will what kind of alcohol i don't know this sounds like a fireball night to me i don't lots of alcohol i don't know um they like i said went

through these these guys neighborhoods they were passing out alcohol to everybody people they knew people they didn't know didn't know. Didn't know. Did they have the gun to everyone's head? You must take this. You must take this. You must. That's kind of how my mom is when someone comes to her home. You must have this beverage. And if you don't, if you don't accept the beverage.

She does force you to take a beverage. Yeah. I mean, she's never brandished a weapon. No. But I mean, those eyes, those peepers. She cuts them at you. Eventually, and we're talking hours later, like this thing started somewhere in the late afternoon. It's now like three o'clock in the morning.

And Jeremy is drunk. He's high out of his mind. And Jeremy is drunk. He's high out of his mind. Somehow, he manages to convince one of the men to take pity on him and free him. Somehow, he separates himself from the situation. This other guy gives him a ride, drops him off somewhere. He manages to make it to a hotel where he checks in. And then he calls the police my goodness is this

from an episode of i survived he um he i just snorted at my own joke yeah that's really that's really a brandy move that's kind of on brand for the podcast in general definitely is police come and get a statement from him and he tells them all about his harrowing night and he apologizes multiple times you know i'm sorry i'm trying to keep my story straight i'm trying to give you all the details everything that i can remember just forgive me because I am high as a kite right now. Yep. And pretty quickly, this story breaks and goes public. And people react a lot like you did, Kristen, where this seems super fucking weird. Super weird.

Like unheard of. Uh-huh. weird super weird like unheard of uh-huh who has ever heard of someone being kidnapped and forced to do drugs and consume alcohol at gunpoint no one the thing is like what and this is taking it to a dark place but when i think of forced to take a drug i think of you get sexually assaulted it's so that they can yes tie you up or like do something to you, not party with you. Yeah. Not party with you. Yeah.

So Jeremy's brother, Jason, his twin brother and his mom, Debbie, speak out in the public when this breaks. And they say, you know, we are super worried about Jeremy. We think that this is a cry for help. We think he's made this entire thing up. Yeah. And that he's obviously relapsed. Jason says, there have been times where we've had hope that he has remained clean,

but we are very concerned for him. This is our cry for help please get the help you need jeremy we know that this isn't true and his mom says i don't want him to Did I say statistic? Yeah. Did I end it with a T? I think you did. What's a statistic? But you don't want to be one.

It's one thing to be a statistic, but you don't want to be a statistic. She said, I don't want him to be another statistic. So well said. Interesting. And she said, I don't want to bury another child. When Jeremy's sister was 16, she had died in a car accident. So this had had a huge impact on their family. And I can tell from personal experience that that is what the death of a child, the death of a sibling does.

My family, we lost my brother when he was 24 years old. And it changed how we process every situation. It changes how you deal with every decision in your life. So I think initially when I told you this, you were like, wow, I can't believe that they made that public statement. I was shocked. Yeah. But I think that is I can't believe that they made that public statement. I was shocked. Yeah. But I think that is why. I think that speaks so much to it.

They knew they had to do something drastic to try and get his attention. And you, yeah, you think about situations differently when you've been through a loss like that. Okay, I'm weirdly glad we're re-recording this. Yeah. Because I didn't understand what you meant when you said that. Mm-hmm. we're re-recording this yeah because i didn't understand what you meant when you said that do you mean you just take the big red flags much more seriously 100 okay yeah yeah everything you it gives you such a you have such a front row view to how to how short life can be, how quickly it can change. And so you take every situation seriously.

I think that my parents, my dad and my stepmom, they worry so much more about me and Casey than a typical parent does. I think a typical parent worries about their children all the time. Yeah. But I think it is escalated when you have lost a child. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think you I think you take everything to a different level. Yeah. Yeah. Well, OK, and we can cut this if this is too personal. But like when you were having kind of like an unexplained medical issue, It was your dad, right? Who was like, you have to go to the doctor.

Yes. It was 100% my dad who was like, you, my dad forced me, like basically kicking and screaming to go to the doctor. And that's when I, all my thyroid stuff was going on. My dad wanted to know every update, every time I went to the doctor during my pregnancy, because, you know, there's just a concern. It's something medical that's going on. you need to know that everything's okay you need that reassurance yeah yeah it's just it just takes like them having lost a child it just takes it to

a different level yeah yeah yeah Jeremy was pissed by his family's public statement. He was 100% standing by his story. He said this incident actually happened. He made this big Facebook video about how he was scared for his life and it really happened. And he understands how maybe people wouldn't believe it because, you know, it sounds pretty outrageous. Yeah, it sure does. But it really happened to me and I was really scared for my life. And he even went so far as filing a restraining order against his family and issuing a cease and desist for when they were speaking publicly about this case. Yeah. And the police spoke publicly about it.

They said they didn't have any reason to believe that Jeremy was making this up. They had no reason to believe that. Okay, we didn't talk about this. Yeah. But don't you think that's smart for them to say? Of course. Until they have proof that this is all bullshit, you don't want to be caught in the media saying,

well, yeah, I mean, obviously this guy's full of shit. No one forces you to party with them. Yeah. And Jeremy's estranged wife like they were kind of like in a weird like are they getting divorced are they not getting divorced on again off again kind of thing she spoke out as well and she said i was afraid for jeremy's life like i knew something happened and i believe his story and the police told us that there's been a rash of these kind of things going on. And the police were like, okay, let's, uh, easy there, lady.

Nobody said that. Can you imagine how many people would be like, um, free drugs and alcohol? Yeah, side me up. Now, where were they exactly? It didn't take long before there was an arrest in the case. Brandon Adams, this 26-year-old guy, was arrested and charged with multiple felonies, including kidnapping, which you and I know is... From our own personal experience, kidnapping people. No, from covering kidnappings on this that carries up to life in prison okay kidnappings oh god gotta be careful but kidnappings for real

fascinate me because i feel like because of the lindbergh baby yeah holy shit that is one thing you for sure never want to do because that is automatically a federal crime. Yes. They will, you know, mock you up and throw away the key. Yeah. Is that what you were going to say? No, I was going to say something really gross and weird.

What were you going to say? I was going to say they're fucking you in the ass or something. I don't know. Okay. Patty, please cut that. I don't know why, but I just really i just really want to ask you right in that a i don't know why but i wanted people to like really know that you know in case anyone's listening that's right and they're thinking about kidnapping someone you know just be prepared

brandon adams was held on a $500,000 bond. And then he spoke to the media. Hmm. He spoke exclusively to radar. Did you almost say exclusively? I did almost say exclusively. Really, what happened is my lips got stuck together because we've been talking for fucking hours. Oh, we've been talking for forever. Yes.

Yes. lips got stuck together because we've been talking for fucking hours forever yes yes and so the a p sound just kind of happens in there sometimes if your lips don't move right sometimes so he spoke exclusively to radar online and he had a very different story to tell than jeremy did what than Jeremy did. What possibly could you mean? First of all, he said there was no gun. So he ditched it. There was never a pipe. He never smoked any kind of drug. Yeah, we got drunk and I hooked him up with some ecstasy and some Xanax and we took a joyride and partied for hours. and some Xanax and we took a joyride and partied for hours. He said, yes, absolutely. I did help Jeremy and his wife, Melissa, with their flat tire, but everything else is completely made up. Here's what really happened, according to Brandon. He said, me and my uncle were sitting outside the 7-Eleven trying to get someone to buy us a couple of beers. I saw Jeremy, didn't know

he was an actor. He and his wife were hanging outside the 7-Eleven acting super fucking weird. He said really strange, but... But, you know, this is an explicit podcast, so we take it up a notch. That's right. We fuck them in the ass. Bam, like Emeril. fuck him in the ass do you think that's what emerald meant when he said band

um we have to assume that yes that's exactly what he meant obviously brandy duck come on he said that that Jeremy was like pacing and sweating and he looked totally tweaked out and that Melissa was acting super paranoid. At one point, Melissa, I guess, was smoking a cigarette or it was clear that she had cigarettes. So Brandon walked up to her and asked her for a cigarette and she gave him one. And that kind of caught Jeremy's attention and Jeremy came over. And it seemed like Jeremy was about to ask him a question like, know hey can you score something for me is what it seemed like but at that moment like right as he was about to ask a police car drove into the 7-eleven parking lot

and Jeremy and Melissa like freaked out like went into the store um and they were like looking over their shoulder the whole time they were in there just acting very totally normal yeah and that's exactly that's yeah and just super super paranoid as soon as the police left jeremy and melissa came back out and started talking to brandon again or like passed by him whatever they didn't go up to him but they went and got in their car and at that point brand Brandon noticed that they had a flat tire on their car. But they drove away anyway. And Brandon remembered thinking like, well, it's super weird. Obviously, they know they have a flat tire.

They just got in that car. Yeah, that's very weird. Very weird. And so he was like, whatever. Sometime later, Brandon and his uncle left the 7-Eleven and were starting to walk towards a bus stop to catch a bus to go home. That's when they like walked down kind of like by an alleyway that was near that building that I had you look up. And there they saw Jeremy and Melissa parked sitting in their car with the flat tire.

So Brandon and his uncle and some other guy that had joined them by this point walked up to them and asked them if they needed help with the flat tire. So Brandon and his uncle and some other guy that had joined them by this point walked up to them and asked them if they needed help with the flat tire. He said, we helped them change it and asked us if they could give us a ride home. So they get the tire changed. And then Jeremy's like, yeah, no problem. As soon as we got in the car, Jeremy asked us if we could get him five Xanax and five Oxycontin. And Melissa was asking for Xanax too. I told him I could hook him up, but that I wanted a couple of beers and he agreed. Something happened at that point, according to Brandon. And I guess, according to Jeremy's version of this story too, because Melissa was with him until that point, Melissa kind of got sketched out by the situation. I don't know what the deal was but she asked jeremy to take her home and

jeremy did jeremy dropped her off and then it was just him and the three men in the car and that's when brandon says they went on this joy ride that lasted for hours he said jeremy wanted to drink so we bought beer and some hard alcohol and we got fucked up he said that jeremy was just drinking beer but that they were all wasted and then they went driving around brandon's neighborhood they were handing out beer to friends and like some random people on the street everybody was having a great time it seems like at this point brandon was trying to um the pills that Jeremy had asked for. So that's why they're talking to kind of all of these random people. At some point, like very suddenly, Jeremy London's mood changed and he became almost erratic, like super irritated.

And he was demanding the pills from Brandon. and he was demanding the pills from Brandon. And Brandon, you know, told him, you know, I'm sorry I haven't been able to get Oxycontins, but I have three ecstasy pills and three Xanax pills. And so Jeremy's like, whatever, whatever you have. And so he gave him three pills and Jeremy popped all three of them at the same time. Holy crap.

Or all six of them at the same time. Three plus three does not equal three. This is a podcast run by geniuses at this point brandon said that jeremy was high out of his mind i would expect so yeah the night continued on they were still partying and at one point they ended up back at brandon's apartment where they hung out with his wife and six children sounds like a party you know the story that I said Jeremy's story that as I told it to you was that at some point he managed to escape by getting one of the guys to take pity on him and pull him away it was an amazing survival story i was very impressed featured on i survived

um brandon says that is so far from the truth he said i brought him to my home and he met my wife and kids and then i drove him back to his neighborhood and i dropped him off on the street he ended up checking into some hotel at like two o'clock in the morning and staying there. Yeah. So once this news breaks, people are like, which story is true? Which story makes more sense, Kristen? Were they really that? I mean, I think clearly Brandon's story makes much more sense. So much more sense.

So much more sense. Yeah. But Jeremy is sticking to his guns. He's like, no, I was kidnapped. So Radar Online starts like looking into the days that led up to this. Because Jeremy is claiming to be clean and sober at this point. He's been sober for months. But there were some incidents leading up to this that made people question that. On one

night, he and his wife, Melissa, were at the Viceroy Hotel. And the police ended up being called because Jeremy's card was declined at the front desk. And he threw a huge fit, created a big scene. And multiple people said that he took what they described as a bottle full of pills and then proceeded to drink heavily at the bar to the point that he was quote stumbling around even after the bartender cut him off so the police are called out that night that's just a few days before this incident yeah i mean this guy's having a tough time. Yeah. Relapse. Yes. Absolutely. All it is. Yeah. And then a couple of days after that, there was another incident where police were called out again. There was some kind of domestic dispute between Jeremy and Melissa and the police basically just separated them that night. And Jeremy spent the night in his car. But as I mentioned, here's this guy, Brandon, who is facing life in prison.

And he is maintaining that his story is the real version of what happened. He said, I have six kids, a wife, another kid on the way. I have a lot to lose. He's not telling the truth about what happened yeah but jeremy's retained a lawyer at this point and he has like public representation obviously and they release a couple statements and they're like you know jeremy's in this big custody battle right now so jeremy and his wife melissa had a son that they had lost custody of because of their their battles with addiction their kid's son their kid's son their son's name if their four-year-old has a son then I'm gonna

say this is inappropriate no their son's name is no lyric London lyric London which I think it's so amazing that you researched this case and then decided to name your baby Lyric it's so great no London Lyric is not named after Jeremy London's kid

so they have this big custody battle going on and as part of that both Jeremy and Melissa are having to take regular drug screens. The state is requiring that. And so as part of this statement that's released by his lawyer, the lawyer says Jeremy London has consistently passed all random drug testing administered by the state of California. Enough said. No, I don't think it is enough said. No. He's passed all the previous ones. Yeah.

And now he has relapsed. And so he's what? Come up with what he thinks is the perfect idea to have an excuse for why he's going to have a dirty test. Yeah. This is a reason to make this story up. Yeah. He wants custody of his child. Yeah.

As I said, like, there's speculation all over the place that this is made up. I mean, it sounds fucking made up to me. Yeah. And even Jeremy comes out and says that he, you know, he understands. He says the twisted tale of his kidnapping is so outrageous that if he heard somebody saying it, he would probably doubt it as well. Well, well. Jeremy's not done making public statements. Oh, good.

I would love to hear more. He makes a public statement in regards to what his family has said in the public about him. And his response to their plea for him to get help. And, you know, he says that the feeling that he got from that was that the best thing I could have done was get killed. And then they could make a TV movie about me. And maybe Jason could get a chance to play me. Although, I would hope they would opt for a stronger talent than that. That's so ridiculous.

Yes! Yeah, they're crying out for him to get help. For a stronger talent than that. That's so ridiculous. Yes. Yeah. They're crying out for him to get help. Like they're trying. Like. It's obvious. Come on dude. It's so obvious.

Yeah. That he's relapsed. Yeah. Jason. And it's so obvious. That his brother is not talented. Jason made a statement in response to this. And he said.

We are used to him lashing out. It's what addicts do. But we will never let these things keep us from loving him and wanting him to get the help that he needs. Yeah. So whose story are we to believe? Oh, come on, Brandy. Kristen. I've told you multiple times who I believe. Well, you might be surprised.

You won't because you've already heard this case. You might be surprised to learn that on March 3rd, 2011, Brandon Adams pled guilty in a Palm Springs court. You know what? I have heard this before. It still infuriates me, nonetheless. It's so fucking infuriating. So essentially, he pled guilty to two lesser charges.

He pled guilty to felony false imprisonment and unlawfully taking a car, which was a misdemeanor charge. This was a plea deal. And the arrangement was that if he pled guilty to these lesser charges, he would be released on time served. I think that he 100% took this deal so that he could get out of jail. He likely could not afford good representation. No. He certainly didn't have the opportunities afforded to him that Jeremy London did. No.

And so, yeah. He's got six kids and another child on the way. He just needs to get out of jail. This is his way out. Yeah. This is infuriating. It is infuriating. And this is what we talked about on an episode before.

Like, would you plead guilty to a crime you didn't commit? In this instance, I 100% would. I think poor people do it all the time. Yeah. I think if you can't afford good legal representation, it just makes more financial sense. Yeah. Yeah. I feel terrible for him. I do i do too it makes me so mad i'm

getting mad again yeah oh yeah i hate it yeah i hate it so he was released following his guilty plea and jeremy london said he felt that he was vindicated. Fuck off. He said, I knew all along I was telling the truth. Okay. And so did the police. This created a monster. Uh-huh. Because, you know, it's one thing for this douchebag to make up some lie

because he's trying to get custody of his kid and all this stuff. But now you've... The prosecutor's office knew that was bullshit yeah come on and this poor other guy has gotten tied up in it now yep jeremy london has something he wants to say to you kristin oh i'd love to hear it he says for people who think this is too weird to happen wake up we live in a weird world kristen it's weird that he said kristen at the end of it it's weird it's like he knew i wouldn't be buying it jeremy said that he was pleased with the outcome from the case but he insisted that this matter was far from over okay he said He said, this guy, referring to Brandon, wasn't the gunman.

The guy who put the gun to my head is still out there. There's definitely going to be another twist to this story. Uh-huh. And just an update on that. They found the gunman. Nothing else has happened in this case at all. Nobody has been arrested. No further arrests were made.

Nothing. Should we start a GoFundMe to find the gunman? I did a little Twitter stalking on Jeremy London. See what his life's up to these days. I can't tell if he and his brother are are on good terms are on speaking terms um but uh looks to me like Jeremy is living somewhere in Mississippi and he's super into gardening these days he's a very active vegetable garden that he tweets about a lot he also wrote wrote a children's book, which appears to be about some form of inclusivity.

I hate it. I know. I don't hate inclusivity. Obviously. Maybe I do. No, I hate it. Now he gets to go around preaching to kids. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Can I look this douchebag up? Yeah, look him up. Jeremy London. Oh, come on. Ew. You don't like him?

Oh, he looks i mean this isn't quite a mugshot i'm looking at but he looks very very disheveled um yeah don't like him don't like him a bit uh one last quote from our buddy jeremy here when at the height of this, when this was going on. He said, I feel like God is testing me to make sure I stay strong for my son. I won't let this destroy me. Wow. Kristen, people can't see what your eyes are doing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You'll have to describe them. She rolled her eyes so hard. Yeah. I feel really terrible for Brandon Adams. Yeah. Absolutely.

This whole case, this whole episode was terrible. Yeah. He likely thought that if he didn't take this deal, they would just charge him with some other drug charge because he was admitting that he procured drugs for Jeremy London. Yep. And so this was his option. Yep. He. I was about to say what he should have done. But the reality is he should have been rich.

Yeah. He should have been rich and white. Yeah. Was he not white? I believe he is a black man, yes. Okay, fuck Jeremy London even harder then. Right in the A. Right in the A.

It's a federal charge. Federal charge. And that's the infuriating case of the kidnapping of Jeremy London. Yeah, I feel real sorry for him. I don't feel sorry for him at all. I hope he trips over a vegetable in his stupid garden. Do you hope he falls in the garden and a zucchini goes right up his butt? You know what I do.

I do hope that. I like that you took a second to think about it. Well, I had to really think that over. Decide if that was the right move. What would be, what would, is there something that would be worse than a zucchini? Yeah, poison ivy. Right in the anus? Poison ivy to the anus, I think, would be quite bad.

Yeah. Yeah, because the zucchini is just like a one-time insertion kind of deal. Well, and some people. You're festering poison ivy on your anus. The thing is, the reason I hesitated. We might have to cut this because it's so gross. But like, you know, to some people, they would sign up for the zucchini or some other. Lots of people would sign up for that. Yeah, exactly.

So I'm like, well, I don't want. That's not like cutting edge, Kristen. I know, but I'm just saying, like, I don't want him getting any pleasure from this. And the poison ivy, as someone who has been covered with poison ivy. Nobody signing up to get poison ivy on their anus? No one. Kristen, you know there's a kink for everyone. Not that one.

You don't think there's anybody who... No. No. Are you crazy? No. No one wants poison ivy on their anus. Okay, you're looking at me like maybe you want it. No!

I don't want poison ivy on my anus. Or maybe you know someone who did. No, I'm just saying there's some weird kinks out there. I agree. That's not one of them. It does not exist. No. And that's how we do it.

Hey, if you enjoy getting poison ivy rubbed on your anus, reach out to us. Well, yeah, for real. Let us know. Let us know. And don't troll us. I mean, don't be genuine. No, we want to know for real. Yeah.

Huh. There's no one. There's probably not. No. What do you mean probably? There's not. Have you ever had poison ivy? There are men that pay women lots of money to step

on their balls in stilettos yeah yeah you're telling me there's no one who wants poison ivy on their anus yeah that's exactly what i'm telling you there's no safe word for poison ivy brandy there's nothing you can say to it you can't say pineapple and then all of a sudden it disappears come on use your head man get your head out of your ass oh brandy this has been um for us a what four hour episode that's right and uh we're not going to include any questions on this episode because we already answered them they just didn't record and i'm sorry we did a great job so good you would have loved it instead we are going to move on to supreme court induction that is correct this week we are sticking with people's

This week we are sticking with people's names and their favorite books. Sorry. What were you going to say? I don't know. I think I'm just like slowly shutting down. Shutting down. All right. You ready? I guess.

Yeah. Courtney Bryan's Finding Me by Michelle Knight. Hannah McPherson. The Stranger Beside Me by Anne Rule Caitlin Bruiney-Coole Speak by Laurie Hulse Anderson Emily Han The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller

Melody Webster Give Me Kerouac, Bukowski, or Oliver Sacks Severn Riding Dirty on I-95 by Nicky Turner The graphic sex scenes will not disappoint. Severn. Making a note now. Thank you, Severn. Lily Cooks. The Minds of Billy Milligan by Daniel Keyes. Oh, I think...

Ooh. I think that's a... That's a... Use your words. I think Billy Milligan had multiple personalities. I think that's a... Use your words. I think Billy Milligan had multiple personalities. I think that's a true story. Oh. Or I could be completely wrong thinking of somebody else.

The world may never know. Jessica Layton. Steinbeck's The Moon is Down. The what's down? I'm so sorry. I don't know. You hit your limit? Oh, The moon is down.

Kate Ruminski. To Kill a Mockingbird. No. I skipped one. I'm sorry. That's my fault. That's my fault. Oh, yes.

Step on that. Throw it in reverse. Steph Harrier. To Kill a Mockingbird. Katie Ruminski. Island of Blue Dolphins. Oosh. I'll Be Gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara. Yes. Katie Raminski. Island of Blue Dolphins. Ush. I'll Be Gone in the Dark by Michelle McNamara.

Yes. Lindsay Bauer. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll. Kristen Miller. The Kind Worth Killing by Peter Swanson. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Deep breaths, Kristen. Oh my God.

We're almost there. Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And head on over to Apple Podcasts, leave us a rating, leave us a review,

and then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this info, for this episode, I got my info from the article Trial by Fire by David

Grant in The New Yorker and the episode Death by Fire by Frontline. I got my info from Radar Online, People, E! Online, and the New York Daily News. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.