Let's Go To Court! - 135: Love Stories

Episode Date: August 12, 2020

This week, we covered two romantic entanglements that’ll have you reaching for the puke bucket. Burt Pugach was a wealthy, married lawyer when he met 21-year-old Linda Riss on a park bench in New York City. Linda wasn’t particularly attracted to Burt, but he was pushy. They’d been dating a while when Linda discovered that Burt was married. Burt had a million excuses, but Linda didn’t buy any of them. She decided to move on with her life. But Burt made that impossible. Then Kristin tells us a truly revolting catfishing tale. In 2005, Thomas Montgomery was living the life of a married suburban dad. But Tom was unfulfilled. So he got online. He quickly fell into conversation with an 18-year-old high school student who went by the screenname Talhotblond. She sent him pictures of herself. She was gorgeous, and she wanted to see pictures of him. What was a balding, 40-something man to do? Lie his ass off.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary “Talhotblond” And several unsuccessful google searches In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Crazy Love” Documentary “It’s Me and Burt Against The World” by Paul Schwartzman, The Washington Post “Meet the Pugachs” by Marianne Macdonald, The Guardian “Linda Riss Pugach, Whose Life Was Ripped From Headlines, Dies at 75” by Margalit Fox, The New York Times

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a tall, hot blonde. And I'll be talking about a storybook romance. They never are. Bullshit. You excited? Yeah, so we both did cases based on documentaries. Oh, really? Uh-huh. We're seeing that on our notes here.

Don't you be reading the notes. That's top secret. I'm like a 50s housewife. You're like, don't read. Oh, God. You took me to a dark place. Good Lord. How are you doing this week? Good. I took me to a dark place? Good Lord. How are you doing this week?

Good. I have something to brag about. Oh, you do? This is a true story. Oh. Well, you already know this. Of seven strangers. Picked to live in a house.

No, you guys. Okay. I feel like people who like really listen to the podcast. And I mean, they listen to it backwards. Yeah. They know that True Crime Obsessed is one of my favorite podcasts. Yeah. And they came out with a new podcast called Obsessed with colon disappeared.

You can't say colon. I shouldn't say colon. I shouldn't say colon. That sounds really weird. Obsessed with Colon Disappeared. You can't say colon. Why'd you say colon? I shouldn't say colon. That sounds really weird. Obsessed with colons. Obsessed with colons. It's a weird show, I'll tell you. No, so.

And you think no one likes poison ivy on their anus. Okay, okay. I'm trying to do a plug here. Can you be profesh? In your anus. Oh my God. Oh my God. I'm sorry patrick hines

so anyway anyway business cat sorry yeah business time good gravy anyway so i love those podcasts i think they're great if you're not familiar with the format in um obsessed with disappeared no colon it's two friends two long-term friends yeah friends of like i think 20 years they sit down they watch an episode of disappeared which is a great show and they are hilarious love it anyway the other day we got an email from patrick hines who no big deal no big was totally calm, totally cool the whole time. He wanted to do a promo swap with us, and I was like... I flipped out, and then I wrote him a really embarrassing email back. It was like, oh, oh my God, I've listened to you so many times.

I love you. Anyway, super cash, super cool. Very common collected. No big deal. Anyway, so guys, Obsessed with Disappeared. It's out now wherever you listen to podcasts. I highly recommend it. I love the show.

And check it out. Take it away, Patrick. Hey there, Let's Go to Court listeners. This is Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed podcast. And I'm so excited to tell you that I've launched a brand new true crime comedy podcast called Obsessed with Disappeared. The podcast is an episode by episode recap of everyone's favorite true crime show, IDs Disappeared. So if you're as fascinated and terrified as I am by missing persons cases, this podcast is for you. My co-host for Obsessed with Disappeared is my best friend of 20 years,

Broadway diva, Ellen Marsh. Our podcast is full of humor, sass, heart, and also two decades worth of just the shadiest dirt on each other. So if you're serious about true crime and missing people, but you also love to laugh, then you are going to love our show. New episodes launch every Wednesday. We hope you'll check us out. You can find Obsessed with Disappeared wherever you get your podcasts.

And we're back. Should we cut the anus stuff out of that ad? I don't know. It depends on how funny it is. Do you think it'll be funny? I think it'll be funny, but we'll see. We'll see, yeah. It's a promo for someone else's show.

Exactly. That's my question. Hey, I would love it if people talked about anuses during a promo for our show. Yeah, I mean, if Patrick doesn't talk about anuses in our promo, I'm going to be really sad. I know. Maybe that should be our next Patreon level, something about anuses. Ew. Okay, I would just like to point out that Norm totally backed me up and he says there's for sure people who have a kink about

getting poison ivy on their anus. You know, some people haven't listened to last week's episode and they're going to be like, this is how this episode starts. Do you want to explain? Do you want to give any context? No. I don't even remember how it came up on last week's episode. I do, but, like, it's a whole thing. Anyway, let's move on. Move on with our lunch. I was actually hoping you would then talk about our existing Patreon levels, Kristen.

I was trying to give you a... Oh, yeah, this was all a business thing. This was all carefully planned and plotted. It's not because I wanted to talk about poison ivy on the anus. Anyway, guys, here's me being professional while Brandy is being ridiculous. Hey. Hey.

I don't know why I said it in a creepy voice. So we just released a new bonus episode on the Patreon. And it was necessary. Are you trying to build suspense here? I'm sorry. I was looking at you because I thought you were going to take it away.

But no, that's fine. Missed the cue. Missed fine. That's fine. Okay. So we accidentally, on purpose, Yeah, did a themed episode for our most recent bonus episode. We did movies

movies so brandy told a horribly tragic story about the twilight zone the movie uh-huh twilight zone colon the movie yeah you gotta say the colon otherwise they won't know and um how stella got her groove back so that was a book that was turned into a movie did you guys know that that whole romance was based on the author's real life? Inspired by her real life. And then he came out of the closet six and a half years into it. Don't give him the whole episode. I'm just saying he came out of the closet and she did not take it well. And there was a big divorce. If you want to hear that, head on over to our Patreon right now. Sign up at the $5 level or higher and get that plus 12 other bonus episodes and if you sign up at the seven dollar level you

get all that plus a monthly bonus video and you get a sticker and you get inducted to the podcast and you get into the discord and at the ten dollar level you get all of that plus ad-free episodes, and you get them a day early. That's where it's at. That's where all the cool kids are. Everyone else, uncool. We're sorry to say, we don't make the rules. It just happens. What's she got over there?

You got any other hot topics you want to? Hmm. Hot topics. I feel like I'm on an episode of The View. You're Meghan McCain, obviously. Oh! No, you're not Meghan McCain. God.

No. Ugh. No. Just rude. Sorry. Hmm. Have you seen the documentary that I'm going to cover today? You haven't read the notes?

No, I don't read the notes. Why? I mean, you're going to tell me the case. I mean, why would I, like... You don't just glance at the... Absolutely not. Okay, all right. I feel like you're more curious than I am.

I am. I want to know everything. This is not news. And I want to remain in the dark yeah yeah i'm not like oh wow this story i haven't heard i wonder where it comes from what i don't do though it's like when you call dibs on a case if i have not heard oh no i'm just like i'm just like okay cool that's you yeah well yeah you want to hear yeah because i want it to be yeah i want it to be i'm sorry i just burped.

Do you want to talk about how you called Norm out for a fart earlier? Yeah, okay. So, Norman was sitting in the chair talking to us, and he just farts. I thought it was the chair. Brandy, you. He's sitting in a leather chair. That 100% could have been the chair. And the scent? I didn't smell anything.

I'm just saying you're a sweet, naive gal. I'm just saying. I don't think you had to call him out like that. Well, it's been a tough time, what with me asking him to go buy mulch from Logue. I just saw lovers quarrel, guys. Yeah, Brandy had to witness the whole thing and weigh in. It's a cool thing to do to your friends. All right, enough of this.

Oh. Okay. You ready to talk about my case? Storybook romance? I am ready. Okay, first of all, this all, with the exception of like four details, comes from a documentary called Crazy Love. Hmm.

All right. Do you know this documentary? You love documentaries, so I was sure that you would have seen this. I don't think I've seen this. Okay. All right. The title doesn't appeal to me. I'll say that.

Describes it really well, though. Okay. Okay. And I have to shout out Caitlin, David's's sister because she recommended this documentary to me and then told me where i could watch it and said it would make an excellent episode for the podcast then a hero comes along my god that's like when people in the discord like tell us what what to cover and then they include like the best possible links yeah so this documentary is available for free on YouTube. Like legit, you know, it's not like, yeah, it's like a real version.

There's like a cat border around it and it's going a little too fast. All right. Linda Riss was sitting on a New York City park bench in 1956 when Bert Pugash spotted her. Pugash? It's a rough last name. That's too bad. That's too bad. Well, as someone who grew up with the last name Pitts, I don't just laugh.

I also feel for him. I feel for the Pugash. Well, Pogash didn't care that that was his name. He was on top of the world that day. It was a, I don't know, a Jewish holiday of some kind. He was feeling really great. He'd just gotten back from London where he was making a movie. What do you mean a Jewish holiday of some kind? Which one was it?

I can't remember. That's why I said that. I think it was Rosh Hashanah, but I'm not positive. Okay, okay, okay. I'm not positive. But he specifically mentions how excited he was that it was a Jewish holiday. Sure. He was feeling great,

and he's with a friend, and he spots Linda Riss. Yes. Sitting on a park bench. Bert is 30. Okay, oh no. Linda? Oh no.

20. How do you feel, Kristen? You know how I feel. Everyone knows how I feel. Spoiler alert, you're not going to like Bert at all. Well, I never like any of the couples you describe in this podcast. So Linda is beautiful. She's voluptuous, brunette.

People described her as looking like Elizabeth Taylor. Gorgeous. Naive as she could be. Bert looks at his friend and says, she's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. I must have her. There are some sentences that are just so creepy. Yes, I agree.

It's super creepy. It's what I said when i saw you saw you across the playground i must make her my friend so burt is this very successful attorney in new york city i think he's from the bronx like doing very well for himself he's also like making movies on the side which i don't really know yeah he just like i said he just got back from london where he was making a movie anyway he approaches linda wait is he an actor or no he's on the side which i don't really know yeah he just like i said he just got back from london where he was making a movie anyway he approaches linda wait is he an actor or no he's makes okay like was a producer yes okay yeah yeah um but his big business is as an attorney and he at this time so it's 1956 was making somewhere between 50 and 80 thousand dollars a year wow adjusted for inflation yes what is it four hundred and

eighty thousand to seven hundred and sixty thousand dollars yeah okay dude was rich yeah um which was really good because he wasn't that good looking according to everybody in this documentary very kind of everyone to point it out he's just kind of like tall and lanky and more glasses kind of had a big nose like not the type you picture with elizabeth taylor no okay not at all but he is feeling himself yeah sure so he walks up to linda and he he's trying to be like super charming and suave and he thinks that he's gonna like get use some line about like weren't you just an extra on my movie oh god it goes completely over her head and she's like what she thought he was super weird she had no idea what he was talking about uh-huh um didn't find

him the least bit attractive but ended up giving him her phone number just so he'd go away. Okay. She gets home later that evening. There's a dozen roses waiting for her. How do you know her address? I don't know. I think maybe like in the 50s,

that's how it worked. You got a phone number, you were able to easily track it to an address. Yeah, because it was like L73. Yeah. Okay, okay. All right right he's very easily able to track down where she lives yeah okay and uh and so she lives um with like her grandmother and an aunt and her mom it's just a bunch of old women that she lives with right and she's like

and they're very excited that this man has sent her these flowers. And she's like, yeah, he's not that attractive. I'm just not that interested. And her grandma says, hey, he's a lawyer. If he's more attractive than the devil, then he's good looking. Okay, grandma. And she's like, okay. And so she decides she'll go out with him. And so he starts whining and dining her.

He owns a nightclub. He's taking her there all the time. Every time she walks into the nightclub with him, the band is instructed to play this song called Linda, which is played over and over and over again in this documentary. Oh, my. Okay. I thought you just meant, like, the band played it constantly while she was in there.

No, I think they just play it, anytime she enters and then they move on. Like in a baseball game. Yes. That was a sports reference. Very good, Kristen. Thank you. Seemed like you weren't going to compliment me. Like a walk-up song?

Yes. What would your walk-up song be? Obviously something by Cardi B, I think. Anyway, he's rubbing elbows with lots of like hollywood folks because he's got this club he's you know makes movies so she gets to meet all these people she gets to meet actors and musicians and whatever and he has amazing cars he's got all these great cadillacs gets a new cadillac every year because he knows it will help him with women it's the whole reason that he owns a nightclub is because he knows it will help him meet women yeah and sleep with women and whatever yeah he also

finds out he owns a plane oh my god so like the day that like the first day after she meets him he's like hey you wanna you wanna go out tonight and she's like sure what are you gonna do he's like oh my god let's go for a flight in my plane. Let's fly to Paris and we'll have dinner in Paris. So things are going really well. Linda's loving it. She's loving this fancy lifestyle. They're going to the Copa all the time. Yep, that's the place.

And Linda's friends are all super jealous, but they're happy for her she's this beautiful girl and she's always had kind of like a self-esteem problem oh no her dad left when she was young so she never grew up around men so she had like a weird weird feeling towards men and her her mom and her aunt and her grandma that she all lived with were kind of like anti-man and so it was just she she had an interesting outlook on men and so Bert definitely took advantage of that what was her outlook on men um I think her outlook was kind of like, um, and I said her, her, her mother and aunt and grandmother were anti-man.

I don't actually know that that's the right way to describe it. They were, they were described as, um, not interacting with men. Okay. And so I think she had this kind of view that like any man who looked her direction, she was lucky for that to happen,

even though she was like this beautiful woman right right but at 20 how long have you been beautiful have you had time to adjust to that probably not no and he's 30 so uh-huh so after a while of this going on this dating this wooing whatever linda's grandmother is like i don't know he's wealthy he's got a big business he's 30 years old how is it possible that he's single oh no i bet he's married and so linda described um her family as being um kind of paranoid uh-huh and she's like so that was the thought. Like, there must be something wrong with this guy. He must be married.

And so they decided to, like, look into it, start asking around, see if anybody knows about Bert. Grandma does a recon mission. And Linda finds out that he is married. And somehow, because she's been asking around about it, Bert finds out that Linda knows he's married and so he's going to come clean before she can confront him. That's his trick. He's going to, hang on, can you mute your shit?

I cannot. And so they go out. Bert knows that she's going to confront him about being married that day. And so he nips it in the bud. And he's like, hey. I have something to tell you. I must confess to you. And so he confesses that he's married, but he's getting a divorce.

And Linda's like, fine. Get a divorce. Call me when it's done. Oh, okay, Linda. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to mess around. Like, I'm not going to see you while you're married.

No, thank you. But if what you say is true, it sounds like it's about to wrap up. Give me a ring as soon as your papers come through. And wouldn't you know it. He fakes some papers. The very next day, Bert calls and says, hey, my divorce papers come through. No. But what's Burt do for a living, Kristen?

He's an attorney. He's an attorney. So he forged divorce papers. Of course. Wrote them up. They looked very official. I'm sure they did. Brought them over.

Showed Linda. Linda's young, but she's no dummy and she writes down the filing number on what the divorce papers and gives it to her mom and has her mom call her attorney and say can you look into this make sure this is legit whoa but okay the divorce papers that burt presented her were filed in alabama he had some story about that's where his ex-wife lived, whatever. And so it took some time to verify these papers. So Linda continues seeing Bert while all of that's going on because, you know, they had to give the number to the lawyer. The lawyer has to call in Alabama and whatever. And so Linda is willing to assume for the time being that everything's legit and she continues to to see Bert and things are going well except that all of Linda's friends are kind of at the point where they're getting married and

they're buying houses and all this stuff and so Linda's like ready for her life to kind of move in that same direction and so you know she's kind of talking to bird about that and like hey where's this going or is that the direction that we're going in and yeah except bert's married and so he's stalling her he takes her to look at houses like in the suburbs of new york city he he takes her to look at diamond rings like let's look at engagement rings yeah yeah of course that's the direction we're going you know uh whatever so he's just like trying to stall her trying to stall her all the while he's putting all of this pressure on her to have sex with him oh my god i hate this linda's a virgin and she says quote this is a quote no way jose she says on this documentary she says when i marry you

that's when i'll go to bed with you and she's sticking to her gun she's like absolutely not i will not have sex with you until we are married so because linda looked a certain way she's beautiful she's very shapely she dressed somewhat provocatively burt becomes convinced that every man wants her, which is probably true. Yeah. But he also becomes convinced that she's sleeping around on him. Yeah, because he's a shithead. Yes, which is absolutely not true.

She was a virgin and was very serious about maintaining that until she was married. Right. So they began to argue constantly about this. Why won't you sleep with me? Oh, you're sleeping with all these other men. And one day they pulled up to a stoplight and a man pulled up next to them. And it happened to be a man that Linda had dated at some time in the past. And he was like, oh, hi, Linda.

How are you? And Bert just sent him over the edge. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's just another man you're fooling around with. Mm-hmm. And according to Bert, people were telling him that she was sleeping around. Bullshit.

So finally, Linda has had enough of it. Yeah. So what do you think she does? She broke up with him? Oh, no. Does she sleep with him? No. Because he's so manipulative? No, she does she broke up with him oh no does she sleep with him no because he's so no she does something weirder than that what do you what she has bert accompanying her to the doctor oh my god oh no yep and in the documentary when she tells this story she's like

it's the most horrible thing that he made me do. They went to the doctor, and I don't know if it was her idea or his idea. Went to the doctor, the doctor examined her, and then confirmed to Bert that she was, in fact, a virgin. Which cannot be confirmed, but anyway. No, yes. That honestly would make sense to me if that was her idea. Yeah. Because if she is thinking, I can refute this with logic.

Yeah. I can refute this with facts. She's not thinking, this guy's just a piece of shit. Yeah. And he's just saying this to try to manipulate me. She's thinking, well, if he knows the truth, then this will stop. And, of course, the truth does not stop someone like this. Nope. Continue.

So Bert, in this documentary, he's like, yeah, it was a false accusation. That's all of the time he gives to it. Not, wow, I'm a piece of shit. I'm horrible. Yes. Okay, great. Cool. So shortly after this, Linda finds out that Bert is still married.

The lawyer calls back. Turns out the papers are fake. There's no record of it ever being filed in Alabama. They're completely fabricated. So she confronts Bert about this, And he's got a whole story. Oh, OK. So, yeah, those those were the papers that we drew up. We were going to file.

Yeah, we were going to file in Alabama. And then, you know, she moved back to New York. And so we're filed in New York. And a divorce in New York just takes a lot of time. And so that's why I showed you those papers. Trust me, I'm a lawyer. Basically. But Linda's not having it. She's like, nope. You've been lying to trust me I'm a lawyer uh-huh basically but Linda's not having

it she's like nope you've been lying to me I'm done we are done okay and so she ends things with Bert and at that same time she has a friend that's like headed to Florida with her family for to spend like a month there and so Lindainda quits her job and she decides she's gonna go to florida and just get her mind off of all of this and just have some fun be young and and whatever and so she does she goes to florida she's hanging out with friends she's very popular with the men down there she's getting lots of attention it's great it's exactly what she needed. And she meets this man, Larry Schwartz. Larry is this big, muscly, masculine guy. All of the women are just swooning over him, including Linda.

And he really takes a liking for Linda. They spend a lot of time together. It's great. It's great. But then it's time for Linda to come back to New York and her trip. And Larry is actually going into the military. And so they are pulled apart. She goes back to New York.

He joins the military. And it was really sad for Linda because she really felt like that was the first time that she felt real affection for someone that was actually genuine. And so, yeah, it was a really sad time in her life. Well, really sad time well it didn't feel forced yeah they were genuinely attracted to each other they were genuinely drawn to each other yeah yeah back in new york in the meantime burt is like spiraling out of control yeah it's one thing for him to be two-timing but for her to go find someone else is just terrible he's yeah he's devastated by the loss of linda he needs her back anything he do um in the meantime he's also being investigated for potential fraud because he's what they described as an ambulance chaser that's the type of lawyer he is so there's this

thing that he's accused of doing called fee splitting which i had a hard time understanding what it was but it sounds like essentially someone gets injured took a fee and he's getting so he's essentially somebody gets injured and he works out a deal with a doctor to send them there for the medical care and they both get a kickback oh shit yeah like they make it look like the injury is worse than it was and so then they can sue someone yeah that's awful yes he denies that that that he ever did that sure he said that he was very prude when it came to fraud and continues to be to this day prude yes okay i i tease it a little bit uh but i do not allow for prude to penetrate me in any way um he is also struggling with his home life so he was really he was for real married he was not in the process of getting a divorce and at some point he and his

wife had had a child i had a hard time with this portion of this documentary so this documentary came out in 2007 okay but little dated is it it. And they're interviewing a bunch of old white guys, essentially. They're throwing around the R word a lot. Really? Yes. So Bert and his wife have a child and she is severely developmentally challenged. Right. Can't walk, can't talk, can't sit up is how his secretary described it. So

this, apparently, he had a real struggle with because he was very excited to become a father. His father had been like his saving grace in his life. He'd had a horribly abusive mother, and his father was the one that would step in and stop that when that happened. And so I think he expected fatherhood to be that same kind of relationship where he'd have this great relationship with his child, his daughter's born, and he can't have that. And so it became a great struggle of his life, I guess they ended up institutionalizing the child. And he went into a very deep depression about it and began drinking heavily. So all of this stuff is kind of going on at the same time

yeah and there's only one thing that he can think that will solve his depression and that's to get linda back his wife that's to get linda back he needs linda back linda is what makes him happy he has to have her remember he has to have her so bert's a mess all aspects of his life are a mess and the only thing that he can think of that's going to fix it is to get linda back so linda's back in new york now but she's in love with larry schwartz right and she is hopeful that once he gets out of the military that they'll be able to get back together and whatever but birth birth burt is like breathing down her neck he's trying everything to win her back he's calling her multiple times a day he's showing up with gifts just like coming to her house

he even has his father come and talk to her and say that he's for sure getting a divorce everything's good don't worry i'm it's gonna go through. You know, I will see to it. You can trust me. What reason do I have to lie to you? To get a divorce in New York takes a long time. And so Linda believes him. She's like, why would his father lie to me? Like, what kind of paid actor? It's not his real dad. What kind of person would that be? No, it's his real dad. Yeah, I believe it. And so she decides to start seeing Bert again.

And they see each other and, you know, they have fun for a while. But again, the conversation goes towards marriage and she's ready to do that. She wants to get married. She wants to have a kid. Like, she's ready to start her life that all of her friends have started, you know. And he keeps putting her off, putting her off. And then she gets a call from Bert's wife. Oh.

And she says, you know what? You can go out with him. You can see him. You can sleep with him. I don't care. But I'm never giving him a divorce. Love it. Yes. Love it. Yes. Plain and simple. I am never giving him a divorce. You know what? That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I am married to this total douchebag. Yeah. Go ahead and sleep with

him. Yeah. Go ahead and do what you want. Yep. But I'm keeping the money. I'm keeping the lifestyle. Yes. Not bad. Hat tip to her. What's her name? Not bad at all. Oh, gosh. I didn't write her name down. Oh, Brandy.

No, I'm sorry. Francine. Her name's Francine. Okay. I did write her name down. Okay. I was going to say. Man, the old white men told the story, and you just took it right from them, didn't you?

Her name was the white. Her name was Francine. Her name was Francine. Yeah, so Francine Carlson is like, yeah, nope. I'm never giving them a divorce. I want to drink Cosmos with Francine. Right? Yeah. And so that's it for Linda.

She's like, bye. She tells Bert this and she's like, this is it for real. I'm done. Don't call me anymore. When people say I'm done don't call me anymore when people say I'm done they are rarely they are rarely done yes yeah so Larry gets back from the military around this same time and so they are able to like rekindle their relationship everything's great Linda is in love with Larry and Larry lovesinda like they are moving towards marriage she meets his family like things are going good they get engaged it's everything that she could have dreamed of it's

a very different lifestyle from the life she would have had with burt because larry's not rich like he's right he's working class he you know drives an old station wagon they're driving around an old station wagon instead of a powder blue cadillac convertible. But it's the life that she decides she wants. Bert is not where it's at. Right. But Bert doesn't want to hear it. Bert begins stalking Linda. Yeah. This is not surprising at all. He is showing up at her work. He's showing up at her house. He's calling her. She's

constantly having to change her phone number. It bad bad bad real bad burt goes to talk to linda's father to get his permission to ask her to marry him dude you're married yes he's gonna figure that out kristen don't worry yeah he's gonna figure out the divorce thing but linda's dad's like, you're too late. She just got engaged to Larry. They're getting married. He's going to kill Larry, isn't he? That's exactly what Bert intended to do. So he waited in the shadows outside of Linda's apartment one night with a gun waiting for Larry to bring her home.

And Larry saw him standing there. But Bert couldn't do it. He couldn't muster the courage to shoot him. In this documentary, he says, it's a hard thing to do to shoot someone. Well, that's probably a good thing. So Bert couldn't do it. He couldn't kill larry and so he had to come up with a different idea of how to keep linda and larry apart

and so he started looking into hiring someone to beat linda up oh because then maybe she'd be scared and run to him for protection. Makes sense. No, that wasn't what he was really thinking. Yeah, that makes sense, Kristen. No. And so that's exactly what he does. He pays somebody $2,000 to rough Linda up.

Oh, no. So one morning, very shortly after Lindainda and larry had become engaged someone comes to her door in the morning when she's getting ready for work her grandmother her aunt somebody opens the door and the person at the door says i have a gift for linda and she's like oh an engagement gift like this is that's a normal thing so she walks to the door she's got her hands up in her hair she's putting her hair up for work and the man throws something in her face and it starts burning he threw lye oh which is essentially acid in her face she ran to the bathroom and just like stuck her head under the sink and started washing it off so it was just

burning and burning her face was burning her hair was burning. Oh, my God. They called an ambulance, and she was taken to the hospital, and she was severely burned on the face, her eyes, and her scalp. The doctors thought that they would have to remove her eyeballs. Oh, my God. They were actually able to save the eyeballs themselves, but she lost all of her vision in one eye and was legally blind in the other. Oh, my God. The doctors thought that she would be horribly scarred for the rest of her life and that she would be bald for the rest of her life. Right. She, as far as the scarring went, wasn't horribly scarred on her face but she did

lose her hair and she was blind yeah oh when the police came and were like who could have done this she knew immediately of course she knew immediately that it was burt she spent months in the hospital receiving treatments and having surgery after surgery and larry stayed by her side the entire time even when she told him this is your way out yeah you gotta leave you can't you've gotta you can't spend the rest of your life taking care of me and he was like no no i'm engaged to you i've made the rest of your life taking care of me. And he was like, no, no, I'm engaged to you. I've made you a promise. We're going to get married. And so this was huge news.

Like this became like a tabloid sensation in the New York papers. Like this lawyer had, you know, paid this thug to do this horrible thing. Like that was that was the story. And this beautiful girl was now horribly scarred and disfigured and blinded. And then there was this hero, Larry, who was going to stay by her side and marry her anyway. Bert was arrested at some point during all of this. But as soon as like the publicity around Linda herself and Larry doing this great thing and staying by her side as soon as that went away, Larry left. Oh.

Her eyes were left looking very odd. So she'd been this, you know, this striking beauty. And while her skin wasn't scarred or anything, her eyes were left kind of like milky, bluey looking. Yeah, sure. And so I guess he thought it was too much, and she would require lifelong care. Yeah. And it wasn't something he was willing to do. And so he left, and she lost this person that she had loved so deeply.

This is horrible. It is. It's horrible. So Bert had paid this guy, and he'd recruited like two more guys. So, it was like these three guys who had thrown this lie on her. And then they tried to blackmail him. And he refused to give them more money. And so, they beat him, like, beat him horribly.

Did they throw a lie on him? No, I guess they broke a bunch of ribs or whatever. And then he was arrested right after that. And then the police punched him in the same ribs. Yeah, he goes into this whole story about how they arrested him. And they put him in a paddy wagon with the same guys that had just broken his ribs. And then the police broke his ribs and how terrible it was for him. One of those rare moments when police brutality is kind of a fun thing.

There's not a ton of court stuff available about this. I tried to, like, they mention it kind of quickly in the documentary. And it was a big story at the time, but it happened in 1957. Yeah, yeah. So it was difficult to find the articles on it. But initially he tried to, he was going to represent himself. And then his dad got him a lawyer. And then he tried to do, like, everything he could to delay the trial so he was making claims about

being mentally unstable they actually did commit him for a while yeah he actually made an attempt on his life at one point and cried out for like so he broke his glasses got the glass out from the lenses and slit his wrists and then was like just like screaming linda's name at the top of his lungs the entire time i think that there's a real possibility that he yeah like had a had a legit like obsession with with linda yeah eventually finally it goes to trial he does he is represented by an actual lawyer not not himself. And Linda testifies. A reporter is quoted on this documentary, and he says that it was the first time in New York City that there had been an in-person victim impact statement. I don't know that that could be true.

That seems like a pretty big claim. Yeah, that sounds like a very big claim. Yeah. But okay. But yeah, she walked into the courtroom. She was led to the witness stand because she's blind. Yeah. And Bert says this is all a charade, that she wasn't completely blind yet by that point.

She could have seen just fine. Okay, Bert. Okay. She could have seen just fine to get up there, and it was all an act. The whole trial was a fraud. He might have been guilty. All right. All right.

He might have been guilty. But that doesn't stop the fact that this whole trial was a fraud. If he was guilty of a crime, then the trial was not a fraud. So what he said, his personal defense, this is not the defense they presented at trial, I don't believe. But his personal defense was that he hired these guys just to rough her up a little bit. And that they took it to the next level and did the lie and that that was never what he wanted. Mm-hmm. But you hired men to go attack a woman.

Yes. So there we go. But it was a crime of passion, Kristen. That's the defense, that it was a crime of passion. Crimes of passion can kiss my ass. Yes. Because men get a lot, they're allowed to get away with anything. He was driven insane.

It was her fault because she was so hot. Yeah. By the love that he had for her that was now unrequited. He was going to lose her. And if he couldn't have her her no one else could have her either yeah totally understandable jury of all men jury of all men yes of course yeah yes here we go here we go everybody buckle up they interviewed his old secretary on this documentary and she's like at the time that she was his secretary she is like a total sex pot sex pot tig old biddies beautiful and she even says

she's like i think he hired me because he liked the way i looked i wasn't a very good secretary and they had an affair like the entire time that he that she was his secretary but she says that she couldn't believe it when it happened and people were like do you think he could have done it and she's like yes i i believe he could have done it and i don't believe in capital punishment but i think he should have died for this wow it's like whoa i don't believe in capital punishment but he should have died for this yeah okay so linda takes the stand and she does the big thing like yes it was him He did this to me. This is why he did it.

The jury deliberates for only two to three hours before they return a verdict. Do you think they found him guilty? Yeah, I think they probably found him guilty. But the sentence is going to be like next to nothing, right? Because it's a crime of passion. That's what I thought too, because it was a crime of passion and an all-male jury. Unless, let me present another thing. Obviously, looks are very important.

They were even more important back in the day. So I am wondering, if you show a bunch of men in the 50s pictures of this gorgeous woman and, oh, look at her now, maybe they would almost overreact. Here's the thing about Linda. Okay.

Even after the attack, if you didn't know that she was blind, if you didn't know that, you could look at her, because she always wore dark glasses, and you could have no idea. That she'd been attacked and all that. Yes. She wore beautiful wigs. She wore these very stylish dark glasses. And the portion of her face that showed beneath the glasses was still strikingly beautiful. She looked very chic.

And her, I mean, it's not like her eyes were ugly or anything. She was just blind. Yeah. I mean, no, her eyes, if you saw her eyes. You would know. You would know that something happened yes okay yes her eyes were the only thing that if you saw her if you saw her without the glasses you would know something happened to her okay but i don't know that they like that was something that she was very protective of letting people see her without her dark glasses so i don't know that she would have let a jury see her like that yeah

okay i don't what would they say? They did find him guilty. Okay. And they sentenced him to 30 years in prison. Wow. Yeah. He was facing up to life. Wow. Yeah.

I was actually very surprised by that. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's when things got real bad for Bert, if you listen to him. Oh, no. Poor Bert, the hero of the story I know Bert was sent to prison first he went to Sing Sing and then he went to Attica which well that is pretty rough he was in Attica during the Attica prison riots wow yeah um he said someone saved his life like he almost died whatever and apparently the prison guards were really terrible to him because they knew he was a lawyer and they're like hey if we catch you

lawyering in here we're gonna beat your ass but burt wasn't wasn't scared he started helping people oh yeah because he's such a good guy he overturned three prison three murder convictions okay according to him i don't know if that's actually true i'd be shocked okay and he was just offering his services up to anybody you need him he was great at looking for a loophole in the law and uh and helping these guys who hadn't really hadn't really gotten a fair shake here's the thing i'm sure he was great with men i'm sure he was yeah i'm sure he was perfectly fucking men. I'm sure he was. Yeah, I'm sure he was perfectly fine with women. He was fucking terrible with women. Yeah. This is, do you ever talk to somebody and you're like, yeah, this person, so and so,

and their male friend is like, what? No, they're a great guy. Okay. That's hilarious that you say that. Why? Because at the end of this documentary, they talk, like one of the people that is being interviewed is one of Bert's friends. And they're like, obviously they've asked him like, what do you think about Bert as

a person? And he's like, he's like, I like Bert fine as a friend. But, you know, they say even Hitler had friends. Whoa. Whoa. Yes. Shit, man. Yeah.

Yes. Can you imagine if one of your friends was interviewed and they said that about you holy shit yeah okay yeah so okay so bert's locked up he's in prison he's been sentenced to 30 years um linda was asked what her what her reaction that was and initially she said she was happy with the outcome but she didn't think it was enough she thought he should have gone to prison for life which of course yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. But she decided she had plenty of her own life left. She was going to go live it up.

She was young. She still had lots to offer. At this point, she was legally blind, but she had some of her sight left. Yeah, because it was a big charade. Yeah. In the trial. According to Bert, yes. It was all a fraud. Yeah.

So she decided she was going to go to Europe with her friends. And she did. She went to Europe. She was, like I said, when she had her glasses on, when she wore these dark sunglasses, she was still so beautiful. You would have no idea that there was anything unusual under them. The only physical scars from the attack were to her actual eyes. Right. under them. The only physical scars from the attack were to her actual eyes. And so she kept them hidden behind dark sunglasses, carried on with her life, essentially. She still was very popular with the men, but she didn't let anybody get very close to her. Like she never... Well,

no kidding. After your first relationship. Yeah. But that's not how she describes it. It's so heartbreaking to hear her talk about it because that's not the reason. I'm sure she felt ugly. Yeah. She said her exact words were that she was damaged goods. And that's so sad. Yeah. But I see how someone would walk away with that perspective. Yeah. I wish the perspective had been, yeah, my first big relationship was horrible. Yeah. It was with a predator. Yeah.

Who attacked me. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. At one point, she had gotten very close with a gentleman. Like, they had gotten into a pretty serious relationship. He was, at this point, this is so weird to me because this is how relationships worked back then. They were getting to the point where she was going to meet his parents.

Right. And so that meant that they would then talk about marriage and whatever. So he was going to take her to meet his parents. It was going to be a whole thing. And she realized that in the time that they had been seeing each other, she had never let him see her without her glasses on right and so she talked to her friends about it and they were like next time you're with him wear your clear glasses don't make a big thing about it and everything will be fine and so she did that he never called her again. Oh. So she was like, that was it. I just knew.

Yeah, that was a big test. Yeah. And he reacted exactly how she thought he would react. The whole thing that she was trying to protect against. And so that was it. She didn't seek out relationships anymore after that. She moved into like a one-bedroom apartment and kind of lived on her own. And she knew that that's what her life would be. She would just spend the rest of her life alone.

At what point do you think you should say something to somebody? I don't know. I always wonder about that. Like, I've had friends who are dating and they have kids I imagine it is hard to know at what point you say you tell them you're shit you know

not that kids are shit sorry well I mean so David had a kid when we started dating he told me before we our very first conversation he said yeah like yeah He told me before we, like, our very first conversation, he said, yeah. I have a son. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess you kind of want to just get that. Yeah. But, yeah, in a situation where you, when she thinks, like, that's the whole thing she thinks about herself when she looks at her. I once was beautiful. I'm not anymore. Yeah, because I'm scarred. Yes. I'm damaged goods. Yeah, because I'm scarred. Yes. I'm damaged goods.

Yeah, you would try to keep it hidden for as long as possible, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Like a bald guy who wears a hat all the time. David is also bald and wears a hat all the time. I'm sorry, I didn't mean for you to laugh. Two strikes and Kristen's bugged him. Oh, boy.

But how quickly did you know he was bald? I knew he was bald from the very first time I swiped on him on Tinder. There you go. So it wasn't a secret. Did you have a picture of him with no hat on? Yeah. Well, there you go. So he was honest.

Yeah. I'm talking about the guys who, you know, they're holding on to the scraps around the edges. Oh, yeah. So it looks normal. Yeah. But then they have the hat on all the time. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

Fraud, I call it. Fraud. Okay, Bert. So Bert's over here in prison, just being a real great guy, helping people get out of prison left and right. But he has not forgotten about Linda. Oh, God, leave her alone. He's writing her letters constantly.

Oh, my God, fuck off, Bert. I'll love you forever. No, you won't. He signs some of them God, fuck off, Bert. I'll love you forever. No, you won't. He signs some of them, your loving husband, Bert. What? Yeah. That's just factually incorrect. It is.

Just letter after letter after letter. He keeps getting her phone number even though she keeps changing her number. He keeps tracking her down, calling her constantly. It's terrible. Did his wife ever divorce him? At this point, he was still married. Wow. She really kept her word.

She does eventually divorce him, but not until he, spoiler alert, gets out of prison. Mm-hmm. So, at some point, Bert has this friend who's also a lawyer who, like, is kind of a big deal. And he becomes this go-between between Bert and Linda. Because Bert's not supposed to talk to Linda. Yeah. Like, that's one of the conditions of his prison time and whatever. And so he goes and he talks to Linda and he's like, you know, Bert's still in love with you.

He still loves you. There's this quote from Bert where he talks about in court when he got to see Linda take the stand, he said, just seeing her in the courtroom was a profit. In other words, I was happy to be the defendant because it meant I got to see her. Like all of it was worth it just because he got to see her in the courtroom that day. Bullshit. Yeah. Or he's literally that obsessed with her. Yeah, I don't know that.

I think it's just a feeling of total power. The power that he had to permanently scar her. Yeah. The power of now you have to be in this courtroom, you have to be here. Yeah. We're linked together forever. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So this friend, this go-between, goes and talks to linda and he's like bert's still in love with you you know he will you write him back will you call answer his calls and she's like if he's still in love with me what i'm living i'm living in poverty here i have no way to make any money i can't you know i'm blind because of what he did to me tell him to send me some money if he loves me so much okay and so the friend goes back to bert and tells him this and she's like he's like yeah she's totally gonna get back with you she just wants some money like send her some money and bert's like well i don't have any money like how am i gonna send her money i'm in prison and so bert starts charging for legal services in prison.

And he starts sending that money to Linda. He says within two to three weeks, he'd made $4,000. And he sent it all to Linda. And there's a picture in this documentary of this $4,000 check. Oh, wow. Yes. But Linda writes a letter to the parole board because around this time, Burt becomes eligible for parole. And she says, he's still harassing me.

He sent me $4,000. Don't let him out. Somehow he's granted parole, though. After 14 years in prison, he's released on parole. And part of the parole condition is that he does not contact linda so he doesn't goes and does like this kind of like press junket about you know what happened and you know the crime of passion and he says during one of these interviews just like i mentioned when this happened this was like a huge tabloid sensation. Sure. So he's doing some TV interview.

And he says, live on TV, Linda, I'm still in love with you. I want you to marry me. This guy's so full of shit. And Linda can't believe it. People are like, oh my gosh, can you believe this guy? But she agrees to see him. They get together and she can't believe that she still has feelings for him. And so in 1974, Linda Riss married Bert Pugash.

Oh, God. Yep. And they lived this perfectly happy, content life. He got what he wanted. Uh-huh. And she thought no one else would want her. Yeah. Don't you think?

Well, yeah, obviously. Yeah. Obviously. And I'm sorry, back in the day, I'm sure when he came out of prison, was like, I still love you, blah, blah, blah. I bet a lot of people were like, oh, isn't that sweet?

Yeah. Oh my gosh, you should see. Not how horribly abusive and mind-controlling this whole thing is. And how manipulative it is to say that. Yeah. Yeah, I bet a lot of people it wasn't until he was released from prison that francine finally divorced him

and then he went on tv and proposed to linda on the air and she accepted his proposal and they were married in november of 1974 they did all of these television interviews like on all the talk shows and they talked about how that's fine their story doesn't make sense to everyone but it makes sense to them. You know what this reminds me of? What? Mary Kay Letourneau. Oh yeah. She gets out of prison and then she and that poor guy have a family together and get married and all these people are like well I guess it wasn't creepy after all. No, it was always creepy. It was always wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. And now this person is with their abuser. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. And they lived a pretty quiet life in Queens. They bought an apartment and lived there for years.

And they kind of you know faded from the headlines it was a big another big tabloid sensation when they got married and they kind of faded from the headlines until 1997 when burt was again accused of harassing and threatening to attack his mistress. Wow. Just more love, more love from Bert. This woman, yeah, this woman comes forward. She was his secretary. He worked as a, so he lost his law license.

Of course. Because of his conviction. But he worked as a paralegal when he got out of prison. And so he had this secretary and they had a five-year affair right and she said when she went to end it that he threatened to quote blind her like linda and said like if you don't have dinner with me tonight tonight will be your last dinner oh thathuh. Because you know he'd do it. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be terrifying.

Yeah, he's learned no lessons. Yeah. Yeah. And so... Although he has learned a lesson. What lesson has he learned? That he can do whatever the fuck he wants. Yeah, I totally agree.

I totally agree. Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. So he's charged with several charges against this woman, threatening her and harassing her and whatever. And he represented himself at trial. Cool, cool, cool. And his star witness. He was a paralegal and he, well, yeah, I guess anyone can represent themselves.

Okay. Boy, not a good idea, but all right. And his star witness was? Linda. Yep. Oh, God. I hate this. He took the stand and testified that he was a wonderful, loving husband. Oh, Linda, you're in too deep.

Mm-hmm. The Stockholm Syndrome has set in. Uh-huh. She said. Oh, Brandy, why? Oh, gosh. She completely stood by his side, defended him, gave him this great character reference about what a loving husband he was, whatever. He ends up being acquitted of all but one charge, a harassment charge, which he was convicted of and sentenced to 15 days in jail for. Wow, 15 whole days, for wow 15 whole days 15 whole

days so then he's you know victorious and he comes out and they do these these press interviews and linda is like she's pissed that this whole thing has come up she can't believe that his name has been run through the mud again she says he did nothing do these these, do you know where your husband is all the time? He had an affair. That's it. That's all he's guilty of. Every man does it. Oh, poor Linda.

I know. In this interview, this reporter asks him if he'll change his ways. No. And he said something to the effect of, yeah, you know, I'm on the straight and narrow now, of course. Oh, yeah, things have really changed now. Except for tonight, when I get my wife home, there'll probably be another sex abuse charge against me. Ew, what? Yes.

Ew, he said that? Yes. Oh, God. Disgusting. Kristen. Oh, my God, Brandi. No, I hate this so much. On this documentary, you should see his fucking face when he talks about this affair with this woman.

He's like, so I had this secretary and, you know, we messed around a little bit, had an affair. She was 27 years younger than me. Ew. Oh, my God. And he's an 80 year old man ew on this documentary ew he looks so fucking proud of himself he like licks his lips ew no no 27 years younger than me oh my god i want to throw up. I hate this case. Yeah. Following that, Linda and Bert had a pretty quiet life. Linda needs help. Linda needs therapy on therapy on therapy. If she's out here blaming the other woman like,

just an affair. He harassed me too. I call it love. Uh-huh. You need therapy, girlfriend therapy girlfriend yeah it's disturbing it's very disturbing am i allowed to google her yet uh in one second you can google her so they lived in this same queen's apartment eventually linda lost her sight completely she became 100 blind and 100 reliant on burt to do things for her. Which I'm sure he loved.

I'm sure he did. They were still married in 2013 when Linda died of heart failure at the age of 75. Following her death, Bert told a reporter, through tears, we loved each other more than any couple could have. Ours was a storybook romance. Oh, my God. Just your classic storybook romance where I hire some dude to throw acid in her face, and then she feels horrible and feels like she's unfit for any other man, so she comes to me.

Yep. Yeah. Hated it. Yep. How dare you? Okay, Linda Riss. So she comes to me. Yep. Yeah. Hated it. Yep. How dare you? Okay, Linda Riss. Linda Riss, yes. Linda Riss.

Images. God, he was ugly, wasn't he? Yeah, he's not a looker. My goodness. Her wig game was on point. On point. I'll say that. On point.

These pictures, I mean, these pictures of them from the 70s, like this is when they reunited. If you look at this one where she's got the big fur and the dark glasses. Oh, yeah, I'm looking at it. She is looking super chic, and he just looks like a turd bucket. A turd bucket. Yeah, I liked him fine as a friend, but you know what they say, even Hitler had friends. Brandy, that was awful. I know.

I was in such a good mood, too. in such a good mood too the documentary is really something because she is just she's very um complicated oh man she's very open about what she talks about she's but she yeah she talks about the whole situation and but she thinks that um she makes a comment at some point about how maybe having to be married to her was his punishment because he had to take care of her. It's horrible. That breaks my heart even more. It's my abuser's punishment to be married to me. Mm-hmm.

be married to me. Somebody on one of the, there's a clip of, in this documentary, on one of their like interviews on a talk show where someone asks her if she loves him. And she says, I have a really hard time using that word, but maybe that's what my feelings for him are. Maybe that's my, my feeling of love. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh God. feeling of love yeah that makes sense to me yeah yeah oh god that same on that same clip they ask her if she's if they're happy like together the two of them are happy and she's like yeah i'm happy what about you and she looks at burt and he's like yeah i guess i'm happy storybook huh yep storybook romance kristin that's terrible well brandy you ruined my day with that case i hated it very much i really recommend the documentary. It's very interesting.

Oh, my God. I would pull my hair out. Yeah. Yes. That guy is awful. And the fact that in the end he got the gal, I'm not rooting for it, not loving it. Nope. No.

Okay. Okay. You ready for this? Yeah. What are you talking about? A tall, hot blonde? Sure am. I was born November 2nd, 19...

So big thank you to Emily for suggesting this case via email. Also a big thank you to the documentary Tall Hot Blonde. Really all of this comes from Tall Hot Blonde. I tried to use my Google machine on some stuff. Didn't work out particularly well for me. Tried to newspapers.com. It didn't work out very well there either. Basically a lot of the stuff that was written about this happened a couple years before the documentary came out. So the documentary does a great job of telling you the whole thing. Oh, cool. It did have some issues with this documentary, which we'll get into at the end if I remember to tell you.

Oh, very good. Probably won't. But, you know, here we go. Here we go. Let's talk about a man named Thomas Montgomery. When Tom was in his prime, he was a Marine. And for Tom, that was the life. He had loved being a big, tough guy in the Marines, found it super fulfilling.

He was in the Marines for a while, but he never saw combat, which is obviously tragic. But unfortunately, sometimes in life, you don't get to go to war. So what he was, he was super bummed that he never saw combat. While that seems like a foreign concept to us, I'm guessing Yeah, somebody who joins the military, that's what they're wanting to do, right? So I think a lot of people join because they want their school to be paid for. Right. And like other benefits. I don't know. But yeah, probably a lot of these, a lot of people join because they want to fight. Yeah. Anyway, Tom was no exception to that rule. But eventually he left the military and he struggled. He no longer had that military identity, but he did have a drinking problem.

But the documentary is a little unclear. Either he got sober or he just managed the drinking problem better. But at any rate, Tom became a family man. the drinking problem better. But at any rate, Tom became a family man. He got married to a woman named Cindy, and they had two daughters and a little house in upstate New York. Everything was on the up and up.

Tom taught Sunday school, and he was the vice president of his daughter's swim club, which was not a role I thought you could have. Yeah. But anyway, he got a job at the Dynabraid factory. I think they make tools and shit. Anyway, the job wasn't super stimulating, but, you know, it was an honest living. Years went by.

Tom continued living that quiet VP of a kid's swim club life. living that quiet VP of a kid's swim club life. But after like 17 years of marriage, he and Cindy started struggling. Tom wants you to know that he was impotent. Tom wants me to know that? Tom personally? It's really weird.

This documentary is a trip. Okay. So when he's talking about his marriage, he's just like, yeah, I was impotent. Oh, by the way, communication issues. But, hey, I was impotent. Okay. So everybody hear it loud and clear? Wow.

Tom was impotent. Tom was impotent. Okay. On top of that, he was also very bored. His life was unfulfilling. He needed something more. And so in 2005, he turned to the interwebs. He got into these game rooms where he could play Texas Hold'em and Blackjack with other people, and he loved it. On the internet, he could talk to anybody,

and he could be anybody. His screen name? Marine Sniper. One day, he was playing blackjack when this girl showed up in the chat. Her screen name? Tall Hot Blonde. He's like, hey, I like those things.

I like all three of those things. Tom was intrigued by her brain. They got to talking and pretty soon tall, hot, blonde told him that he was in the wrong place. The site was for kids.

Okay. What? Are you ready for a weird? Okay, you're making the face. See the face. Yeah, I guess this was like supposed to be an 18 and under or I don't know what this was supposed to be. Okay. And he says in this documentary that he had heard about all those stings on the Internet and didn't want to get involved in that.

So he told her he was 18. Okay. Which none of that makes sense at all. That doesn't make any sense at all. Okay. I've heard about these stings. So you're admitting, I guess, that you're a predator? And you think that you're going to avoid being caught by pretending to be 18? Okay.

Okay, so they keep talking, and great news. They hit it off. She told him that her name was Jessie. And then she sent some pics. They were bikini pics. Turns out she was tall hot and blonde and of course she's like well what do you look like and this balding thin-lipped 47 year old man who wears glasses that look like they've been stepped on and And is impotent. Don't leave that part out. Don't leave this limp ding-dong out of this.

Said that he was six feet tall, muscular, and once again, for the people in the back, 18. And she's like, ooh, you got big shoulders? And he's like, oh yeah. She's like, ooh, I like big shoulders. So Tom's like, yep, I'm pretty much a stud. The name's Tommy. I'm just a young, super brave, hot dude just headed off to boot camp to be a Marine.

Okay. And, oh, I've had a tough life. My mom died when I was very young. And I have trouble expressing my emotions. I'm just super suicidal. You couldn't possibly understand. Super suicidal? Are those his words?

Are you paraphrasing? Of course I'm paraphrasing. He said super duper. I will shock you to learn that these were all lies. But that didn't matter because Jesse had no reason to believe that they were lies. So the two of them kept talking and she asked him for a photo of himself. And he was like, sure. So he dusted off a crusty old picture of himself from 30 years ago. And she was like, sure. So he dusted off a crusty old picture of himself from 30 years ago.

And she was like, oh, cool. And they started talking on the phone. Jesse was totally into Tommy. To her knowledge, they were at similar stages of life. He was headed off to boot camp and she was about to graduate high school. She lived in a small house in a small town. I'm sorry. She lived in a small house in the small town of Oak Hill, West Virginia, which, fun fact, is the death place of Hank Williams. I wanted to know something about it, and that was the thing that stood out.

I like your definition of a fun fact, Kristen. You familiar with Hank Williams? I'm somewhat familiar. Mm-hmm. Country folk can survive. Okay. Jesse. Oh, ironically, I'm talking about his death. Okay. Anyway, moving on.

Jesse lived with her parents and little brother and she loved softball and she loved basketball and she also loved Tommy. Oh boy, did she love Tommy. She sent him slideshows of herself looking all cute and she put music in the background, which I'm guessing the documentary didn't have the rights to because we did not get the music that I'm sure was there. And she called Tommy her sweet, sexy marine. Wait, is Tommy sending her pictures? Yeah yeah the crusty ones from 30 years ago she doesn't know that i mean i don't know what she seemed to believe that he was who he said he was you made a you made a face about the slideshows are you anti-slideshow no i think that seems very on brand for a teenage girl yeah in 2005 yeah oh yeah and you know i'm just wondering how he could possibly be reciprocating

that as a not 18 year old boy yeah i mean maybe he just sent the same pics over and over. Jessie was a virgin, but she and Tommy did engage in some cyber sex. No. And she sent him some of her underpants. Oh, God. It was all very intense, Brandy. You couldn't possibly understand. But, you know, the tough thing about catfishing someone is that eventually you might get found out.

Yeah. And that was real scary for our boy Tommy, who enjoyed jerking his little ding-dong to this 18-year-old. I think he was impotent, Kristen. So was he jerking his little ding-dong? Well, impotence doesn't mean you're always limp, right? I guess I don't know the technical definition of impotence. Well, you really came unprepared today. I thought it was just like, you know, when you wanted to get it up, it couldn't always happen.

I don't know. Well, okay. Join us next week when we'll have a doctor on the podcast. Shouldn't we get Bob Dole on here? Oh, God, yeah. Seems like the official spokesman for erectile dysfunction. Do you remember when that was such a scandal? Yeah.

That a failed presidential candidate did some ads for Viagra. Yeah. And now we've got freaking Trump in the White House. I mean, man, really pales in comparison. Sorry, Bob Dole. Rest in peace. Wait, Bob Dole dead? I'm sure he's dead. Is he not dead? I think he is. I think he's alive. He's dead. No, he's alive. Bob Dole's 100% alive. No, he's not. Yeah, he's alive. My mistake. Very sorry, Bob Dole.

When was he born? 1923. He's 97 years old. I'm sorry. This is very rude. I'm sorry. Here's the deal. What?

Big Bob Dole fan? What's wrong? If he dies... I know. This is your fault. My fault that a 97-year-old dies? Yeah, if he dies this week, it's your fault. I mean, the chance...

Yeah. Yeah, maybe... He's out here R.I.P-ing poor Bob Dole. Alive! Sorry. Yeah, maybe. He's out here R.I.P.'ing Porn Pop Dolls alive. Sorry. Oh. Okay, anyway. He has a Twitter.

No, he doesn't. He does. Okay, read me his latest tweet. Senator Doll. Uh-huh. Congratulations to my good friend Roger Marshall on his primary victory last evening in Kansas. When was that, Sanaa? Four hours ago.

Oh my god, he's like active on Twitter? He's actively tweeting! Surely he's not. Well, but who would care to maintain his... On July 28th, he tweeted, Age is just a number, they said, though 97 is a pretty big number. I feel fortunate to have so many wonderful friends, and I'm looking forward to the celebration. RSVP for Dole's birthday. I mean, I hope in these COVID times they didn't have an in-person birthday party for a 97-year-old.

Hey, if he dies, that's not on me. That's on that birthday party, right? that's not on me that's on that birthday party right it appears it was an online event it was a birthday toast honoring elizabeth and bob dole okay okay i approve of that everybody raise your grape juice prune juice grape juice is too spicy So, you know, Tom's like Oh, I wish we could meet in person But I gotta go to war Gotta go defend the country Freedom isn't free Yep, I'm down here in Parris Island, South Carolina

Doing intense training You couldn't possibly understand. Where was he really? I mean, he was really in upstate New York, like, just, you know, living the life of a suburban dad. Yeah. As a VP of his daughter's swim team. That was a cutthroat election. BRB. Gotta go on a recon mission. Tommy would go on these recon missions,

but of course Tom was still at his computer, so what did he do? He would talk to Jesse, posing as Tommy's dad. Oh, hells bells. The reason he did that, and I think you'll be sympathetic to this, is because he wanted to end this whole thing. He knew it was wrong. He wanted, Brandy, don't make that face.

Don't you dare make that face. Why didn't he just end it then? Well, you know, they'd gotten in pretty deep. They were in love. He had to come in as his own made-up father to help end the relationship. Needed to end. It was very wrong.

But he didn't have the strength to do it. So instead, he went deeper with it. He asked Jesse to marry him after he came back from Iraq. She was thrilled. She, of course, said yes. By that point, they'd been dating for six months, and shit was intense. Tom was balls deep into his secret identity. Don't say balls deep.

He was balls deep, Brandy. I'm going to tell you this next part, and you tell me if he's balls deep in it. I'm going to tell you this next part, and you tell me if he's balls deep in it. At one point, he wrote himself a wild note, which he kept in his locker at work, and I will read part of it to you now. He wrote himself a note? Yep. As his dad?

As himself. Oh, okay. Get ready for this. I'm ready. On January 2nd, 2006, Tom Montgomery, 46 years old, ceases to exist and is replaced by an 18-year-old battle-scarred Marine. All paperwork is set, parentheses, i.e. birth certificate, social security card. He is a strong, good-looking, battle-hardened boy. He has money in the bank, parentheses, 2.5 million,

and he has a nine-inch penis. He is handsome, like a red-headed Harrison Ford. That sounds hideous. And he is moving to West Virginia to be with the love of his life. I think he read The Secret. He's putting that out in the universe? He is putting it out into the universe. He thought he could become 18 year old Tommy? Yeah, all you have to do is think it and it will become true. Boom.

The redheaded Harrison Ford of your dreams appears before you, and it's all because you thought it. Was he redheaded? Yeah, he was redheaded. I guess he didn't want to change that. Just, like, his penis and what he had in the bank and his age and probably his personality. There was just one problem with this plan.

It was very unrealistic. Also, Tom's wife, Cindy, a little suspicious. A little suspicious. One day, a package arrived in the mail. It was addressed to Tommy. And Cindy was like, who the fuck's Tommy? Tom? She opened it and she discovered a pair of red panties.

And I assume a letter as well because, you know, the only thing weirder than getting underwear in the mail is no note with it. And Cindy was like, oh, hell no. It didn't take her long before she figured out the whole story. She railed into Thomas. She was like, what is wrong with you? You're leading on an 18-year-old girl. That's what she's mad about?

And that's a weird take it is to me it seems like weird take yeah what would your take be i don't know that you're i guess i just wouldn't phrase it like that you're leading on an 18 year old girl well and that's my phrasing um i'm sure she was very upset about this emotional affair. Yeah, it's an emotional affair. That would be my immediate take, is that you're having an emotional affair with someone, and she's 18, which is disgusting. Yeah, I don't know if she ranked him where she would rank those things. I'm sure you can pick all of the above. But, yes, she was pretty disgusted with her husband and what he was doing with a high school student.

Yeah, yeah. She's like, leave that girl alone. You've got a family. You're a middle-aged man. She told him, look, I'm your wife. If we've got problems, we need to work that out together. You don't go on the internet and trick some high school student into falling in love with you. Yeah, that's disgusting.

Tom was a total dipshit. Tom was a total dipshit. He was like, but it's easier to talk to people online so I don't have to deal with their emotions. I mean, look, for example, at how emotional you're getting right now. Oh, God. So this is for real. He said that he didn't like dealing with emotions face to face. And as an example, he brought up how mad she was right that minute.

Oh my gosh. Uh-huh. Cindy, understandably, had had enough. Yeah. And she wanted a divorce. Yeah. But first, she wanted to make sure that her dipshit husband stopped scamming this 18-year-old in West Virginia. So she wrote Jesse a letter. Here's part of what it said. Jesse, enclosed you will find a picture of my family. Let me introduce you to these people.

The man in the center is Tom, my husband. There is no Tommy. He is taking advantage of you. You need to be much more cautious with your safety. You will only be hurt by a man who has mastered the art of manipulation and lies. Do not trust words on a computer. She went on to give Jesse the full truth. Tom used to be a Marine, but that was like a million years ago. He was not a sexy, sweet Marine. He was a middle-aged, manipulative douche canoe. Mm-hmm. Jesse got the letter, and she was horrified. Yeah. She got online and asked Tom, why did you do this to me? And he was like, I didn't mean to. I'm sorry. Jessie was devastated. She thought she'd been engaged to a redheaded Harrison Ford

with a nine-inch salami. Oh, God. But it had all been a lie, Brandy. Ugh. Real sad about that salami? I'm super upset about it. Hmm? Her head was spinning.

She had trouble processing this whole thing, so she reached out to one of Tom's friends, Brian Barrett. So Brian knew Tom through work at the Dynabraid factory, and he and Tom and Jesse had played a few games online together.

What? Sorry. What? Brian knew that Tom was doing this? No. No, no, no. Okay. Mm-mm. They just had like played a few online games together. He did not know

that like this old dude at work was scamming some 18-year-old. Brian's screen name? Beefcake. So Jesse reached out to Brian and she was like, oh my god, I can't believe that Tom lied to me. It's so gross. I was sexting with some old dude and Brian was like, I'm so sorry that happened. That's so gross. That's so messed up.

Do you know this story by the way? No. Okay. For what it's worth, Brian really was a bit of a beefcake, if I may say. He was 22 and actually not 22, not like 47, posing as 22. And he worked with Tom at the factory and went to school part-time because he wanted to become a teacher. Brian was a good-looking guy. A real Kristen type.

By that I mean dark hair, dark eyes, and that's the end. That's the end of the type. Redheads need not apply. Surprise, surprise. And surprise, surprise, pretty soon, their conversations focused less on Tom and more on how badly they wanted to hold each other. The pics started a-flying. Jessie sent beautiful pictures of herself, and Brian sent pictures of himself. And oh, by the way, Brian didn't have to, like, send crusty old pictures from 30 years ago because that was physically impossible.

Jessie and Brian were into each other. They were saying, I love you. They were cyber sexing. The worst. What? You're making so many faces, and I have to remind you, this is not a visual medium we're on, ma'am. Don't approve of the cyber ring?

I don't like it. Brian was... Okay. What? If Jessie is an 18-year-old tall, hot blonde, shouldn't she have plenty of 18-year-old boys in her neighborhood that she's... I mean, it's a pretty small town. I don't know.

Okay. Once Hank Hill died, maybe they all... I thought it was Hank Williams. I'm sorry. How many times have we mentioned Hank Hill on this podcast? What is happening? Do you have some suspicions about Jesse? I do have suspicions about Jesse.

That story does not check out. Just what the fuck are you trying to say, ma'am? That story does not check out what the fuck are you trying to say ma'am not check out is jesse a dude brandy if someone on the internet describes themselves as a tall hot blonde then obviously they are a tall hot blonde okay and if they have pictures of a tall hot blonde then obviously that's who they are. Yeah. Okay. All right. Hmm. Hmm. Brian was falling in love. Okay. And so was Jesse.

And you don't seem the least bit happy for them. So I guess you're against love. Yeah, I'm anti-love. That's correct. So, you know, maybe she was kind of falling for him, but she was definitely still feeling pretty burned by Tom. So she reached out to Tom, and she was like, I still can't believe what you did to me.

What's wrong with you? She rubbed her new relationship with Brian in his face. She was like, yeah, we send each other hot videos and shit. I sure do like that he's close to my age and not filled to the brim with bullshit. This is obviously all me paraphrasing. Adding my own signature flair. She and Brian teamed up together and went into game rooms and called Tom a predator and a loser.

And Tom got suspended from playing in one of the rooms. Then Brian told a bunch of his and Tom's co-workers what happened. Yep, Tom had catfished a high school student. He'd been all sexual and nasty with some pretty young thing. Then he got caught. sexual and nasty with some pretty young thing. Then he got caught. This was all pretty embarrassing for Tommy slash Tom slash Thomas. Eventually, though, Brian got a little tired of this whole thing. Jesse had really egged him on to go after Tom. And at this point, Brian was kind of of the mindset that they should move forward. So Jesse and Brian's relationship progressed, and at one point she invited him to visit her

in West Virginia, and Brian was like, cool. He and Tom weren't on speaking terms anymore, but he told some friends at work that he was going to visit Jesse, and word got back to Tom, and Tom handled it super well. Tom reached out to Brian online. Here's part of their conversation. Marine sniper. So are you going to see her? Beefcake. I don't really feel like dealing with her BS. I don't know what I want or what I'm going to do with her. Marine Sniper. I can't believe you chose her over our friendship. Go pop her cherry. Good luck. Oh god. Oh I hate that. Beefcake. It's going to be real difficult since Jessie's a dude, too. Beefcake. Why does it bother you so much?

You're so much older than her. Marine Sniper. Tell your cum-sucking, and then he says the N-word, loving little whore to stay the fuck out of my life. You wanted her, you got her. Just tell her to leave me the fuck alone. Wow. Yep. Yep. So Brian's like, whoa.

He didn't even end up going to see Jesse because they got into a fight. She said he was only interested in sex, and so she rescinded the invitation. Mm-hmm. Okay. So she picked a fight. No, no, no, Brady. Because she's catfishing him. No, it was because he only wanted sex.

Okay. She had to put her foot down, you know? Okay. Her big mannish foot. Yeah. Pretty quickly, she went back to talking to Tom. She said she wanted to start over as friends. They'd meant too much to each other to hate one another.

She told him. No. No. Brandy, they had too much. It was too deep. You can't just throw that away. This 18-year-old girl's like, come back to me, 41-year-old dude. 47.

47-year-old. Mm-hmm. Ugh. Okay. All right. Let's find out who Jessie really is. She's a tall, hot blonde. And if I have to say it one more time.

She's a tall, hot blonde. And if I have to say it one more time. She told him, you and you only are my connection to Tommy. And I will love him till I die. Okay, Tommy's not fucking real, lady. Sir, Tommy's not real. In her mind, he's real, Brandy. And he responded, I still feel Tommy in in my heart okay oh no ew do you not feel tommy in your heart i don't feel tommy in my heart no

then they did that thing i hate this where you know they've agreed to start over so let's keep what was in the past in the past and let's move forward. Yeah, but they do the even cringier thing of, hi, I'm Tom. Oh no! Hi, I'm Jessie. They're starting over. Do you get it? Do you get it? So they start over. Yeah, I get it. I don't think you understand. So now they're friends, but they had baggage. Mm-hmm. Yeah, when I was 18, I had a lot of friends who were 47-year-old men. Tom told Jesse that the thing with Brian had turned his heart ice cold. He said he hated Brian with a passion and that for 10 cents, he would eliminate him.

10 cents? Yeah, eliminate him. 10 cents? Yeah, 10 cents. Okay. And Jesse was like, that's a little drastic, isn't it? And he said, payback is a motherfucker, Jesse. I am the ultimate weapon. I am a Marine. Okay.

This is a commercial for the Marines. She said, what are you going to do? And he said, let's just say your piece of shit boyfriend came within a pussy hair of dying. Gross. I know, I know. What kind of measurement is that? I know there's metric and everything, but like... It's like, pussy hair that different than a dick hair?

I don't know. We'll have to ask Tommy slash Tom slash Thomas. Jesse seemed a little taken aback, as you would. She was like, when? And he told her, the day after you assholes told me you were fucking with me. Had I pulled a little harder, he would be gone. Brian will pay in blood. Oh.

Jesse promised Tom that she'd never betray him again. What? What? What? Betray him? Yeah, because she'd egged Brian on to, like, you know, talk to his coworkers, and, you know, they'd gone in the game room chats, just ruined his sterling reputation in there. You know, she'd really, really betrayed him there.

It gets weirder. Are you ready for this? At one point, she told him, I ache for you, Tommy. Tommy, Tommy's not fucking real. No, he's not. I guess Jesse isn't either, so it doesn't matter. How dare you? How dare you? And he said, you killed him inside of me,

Jesse. No! This is ridiculous! She said, I'm so sorry, Tom. And he said, Jesse, I would sell my soul to be that Tommy. I want you so bad, Jesse. I want you so bad, Jesse. I want to hold you and kiss you. I don't think I have to tell you that things eventually took a steamy turn. Uh-huh. Okay, now, I have written this up.

I didn't even write the entire transcript from the documentary because I got so grossed out. Okay, good. I tried to read some of this to Norm, and he flipped out and was like, please stop, I can't. Okay. Okay, are you ready? Yeah, no. Okay, all right, I'm ready. This is really bad. Tall, hot blonde.

Make love to me, Tommy. You! Oh, boy, Brandy, if you're reacting that way to the first line, it's a rough ride from here on out. We got like two 40-year-old dudes talking to each other, right? No. Okay. Just a tall, hot blonde and a Marine sniper. Okay.

Marine sniper. Okay. Marine sniper moves his fox's panties over and slowly rubs the tip of the snake up her clit. Oh, God! I hate it! Tall, hot blonde. Mmm. Mmm. Tall, hot blonde. Mmm.

Marine sniper slides the tip up and down and smiles at his lady. Tall, hot blonde. Mmm. She's real. If I may offer a sponsorship. Sponsored by Campbell's. Ew. Cream of mushroom. Sponsored by Campbell's.

Ew! Cream of mushroom. He's doing the heavy lifting in this cyber sex. I mean, she said mm twice. Then she says, slide him in, baby. Oh! Why'd you say him? Because he's referring to it as a snake. Ugh.

It's all disgusting. Marine sniper. Not yet, baby. I want you to beg for him like a little girl. Oh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nope. Nope. Nope. It's all hot blonde. Please. No! No. Is that how she said it? Nope. Tall, hot blonde. Please. No! No! That how she said, please.

There's so many E's. Marine sniper. Okay, baby. Slides all the snakes slowly into his lady. Okay. So bad. It's so bad his lady. Oh, God. So bad. It's so bad. Oh, God.

Tall, hot blonde. You feel so good, baby. Like a million O's in so, obviously. I thought it was in good. Good. What if you were going to have cyber sex, but you could only use the words that were on the Campbell soup can? I want you to cream a mushroom. I think it works.

Ew. Give me that chunky. Okay. Oh, that's enough. I know I started it. How's my thing worse than this shit that you're reading us? Now I want your minestrone. Marine Sniper pumps faster and faster and says,

maybe any minute now. Oh, we've made it like three seconds. Well, we don't know how long this took them to type out, you know With all the mmms At this point, I stopped I couldn't write down any more of this stuff Yeah, thank goodness I mean, that was a lot, right? Yeah

I mean, you're spent right there Oh, God Interesting, I didn't know you were a smoker I mean, you're spent right there. Oh, yes! Interesting, I didn't know you were a smoker. So, you know, Jesse was back with Tommy, but also flirting with other dudes. And it was just torture for Tom. He asked, do you get a thrill out of hurting me? No. Why, Jesse? Why can't you just let go if you don't want me in your life? Oh, Lord. The drama was unreal. He's like, do you want me in pain? And she's like, no, I don't want you in pain. And he said, do your panties get wet

when you crush my feelings for you? I know I'm pretty scared. Ew, that's worse than the whole transcript. You are going to throw up live on the podcast. Maybe the worst thing you've ever said on this podcast. Are you serious? I hate it so much well you hate the word panties and you hate the word wet

so like the combination you also hate cringy stuff and this whole thing is cringy it's so bad finally after so much heartache Tom, a fully grown man, had had enough he was like leave me alone to the other fully grown man, had had enough. He was like, leave me alone! To the other fully grown man. He told her that if she didn't leave him alone,

he would come down to West Virginia and hurt her. Or maybe he'd hurt someone she loved. Like her mom. So Jesse backed off. But a few weeks later, she reached out to him again. Her mom wanted to talk to him. Don't make that face. It's totally normal, you know.

No, it's not. Yeah, yeah. Like, Jesse got to talk to Tommy's dad, so now he's getting to talk to her mom. About this 47-year-old man that she's chatting with online who was posing as a 22-year-old Marine who looked like a red-headed Harrison Ford with a nine-inch salami. She probably didn't tell her mom about the nine-inch salami. There's some things you don't tell your mom. So, you know, the mom wants to talk to Tom,

and she told Tom, leave my daughter alone. And he's like, okay, but tell her to leave me alone too. Okay. But a couple weeks later, Jesse was back. America's favorite couple was together again. Okay. More dysfunctional than ever before. A few weeks later, Jesse reached out to Brian. She wanted to be friends again. So they connected on MySpace. And Tom saw that. And like any rational middle-aged adult, he got steaming mad. He told Jesse, I can't handle, I can handle you with anyone but him. Are you back together?

And she's like, calm down, you know, we're just friends. They go back and forth for a while. And finally, Tom said, I am not a fucking yo-yo for you to play with. Okay. She said, I'm asking you to let me go. Okay. And he said, you will pay now, bitch. You better be very afraid now.

I told you what would happen if you and Brian got together. This is so fucking stupid. Why? Because it's not real. Oh, I assure you it's real. The feelings are real. The people are not. Jessie was freaked out. She felt like she needed to alert Brian.

Because they really were just MySpace friends. Is that what you call them? I know it's a Facebook friend, but what was it on MySpace? Just a friend? Yeah, I think friends. Did you say he's just a friend? So she's like, hey, just a heads up, Tom's pissed. He has it in his head that we're together. And Brian was like, that's cool. I don't really care what he thinks.

Brian thought this whole thing was a little nuts. He hadn't talked to Tom in months, and he was kind of done with the bullshit. He told Jesse that Tom had tried to hit him with his car in the parking lot at one point. What? Yeah, yeah. Brian was a little concerned about Tom. He was like, do you think I should tell one of my bosses at work? And Jesse expressed that she was really afraid for him.

And he's like, I'm scared too. This guy's crazy. really afraid for him. And he's like, I'm scared too. This guy's crazy. Then Tom started sending Jesse super chill, totally laid back messages. Such as, you're nothing to me now, but a lying whore who only wants Brian's cock in her. Yeah, just super chill, normal stuff.

Also, I don't ever want to see you. I'm sorry. I don't ever want to meet you or see you unless you are being gang raped by, and then the N-word. Wow. Yep. Okay. Jesse tried to calm him down, but it didn't work. Tom was scary.

Okay, but he doesn't live there. Just stop talking to him. Wait, who? What? If Jesse is scared of Tom, Jesse lives in West Virginia. Tom lives in New York. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Can you just stop talking to him? No, they tried. It was just too much. They had too much. Brandy, don't... Obviously you don't understand the depth of their love. Clearly. Mmm. Mmm.

Good. Give me that cream of mushroom. The next day, Tom sent Jessie another harassing message, and she just signed offline. The day after that, he messaged Jessie again. She signed off. But Tom was mad and determined. Later that night, at around... This is a person he's never met in real life.

They've never met in real life. Right. Jesse, he hasn't even found out that Jesse's a 40-year-old dude yet. Right. Right. But... This is a grown-ass man? Yes.

Tom is a grown-ass man. Living a very standard suburban life, and he is just off his rocker with the racist, crazy, nutso stuff. And he's very much involved in this relationship with a young woman who, I don't know, she's about to graduate woman who, I don't know, she's about to graduate high school. I don't know what the deal is. She's also a 40-year-old dude.

So Tom's mad. He's mad at Brian. He's mad at Jesse. Not mad at himself at all? That would require self-reflection. Yeah. at himself at all? That would require self-reflection.

Yeah. Later that night, at around 10 p.m., Brian left work. He walked through the parking lot to his truck. He may have noticed that his rear passenger side tire was flat.

Maybe not. And he got in his truck. And someone came up behind him, aimed a gun at the driver's side window, and shot Brian multiple times. Oh my gosh. Because this happened on a Friday night, Brian's body wasn't discovered for two days.

It didn't take long for investigators to determine that Thomas Montgomery was the man behind this murder. Yeah. Obviously. So they went looking for him. Couldn't find him. They started to panic. By this point, they knew about Jessie, and they knew that she was probably in danger. So they called up police in West Virginia,

and they were like, will you guys please go to this girl Jessie's house? And they're like, uh, this girl who? So a couple officers went. They knocked on the door, and a woman answered. And they were on the door, and a woman answered. And they were like, hey, is Jessie here? And she was like, oh, that's my daughter.

She doesn't live here. She lives in Concord. And one of the officers was like, okay, can you give us her number? She might be in danger. We need to talk to her. And her mom was like, no, I can't give you her number. Because she's not real. I'm Jessie.

And I don't have any way of getting in touch with her. Okay, this is. You know how your mom has no way of getting in touch with you? No, my mom's texted me 12 times since we've been sitting here. And the cop was like, yeah, that seems normal. Yeah. But finally, the woman broke down. She was Jessie.

Sort of. Online, she was Jessie. But in real life, she was Mary Shiler, Jesse's mom. Oh, my gosh. This woman, Mary Shiler, had taken her daughter's photos, including very creepy photos that she took without her daughter's knowledge or consent, and used those photos and that identity to lure men online and have cyber sex with them. Oh my gosh. Is that not the grossest, weirdest thing you've ever heard? Yes.

She took a photo up her daughter's skirt at some point when her daughter was not aware that it was happening. And that was one of the photos she sent out to these men online. Oh my gosh. Mary confessed that Tom had called her the night he'd killed Brian and bragged to her that her boyfriend had been easy to kill. When investigators did track Tom down, Tom was like, Hey guys, what's up? Murder?

Oh my, I have no idea what you're talking about. But you know, Tom, who was definitely a criminal mastermind, made a few small errors. Yeah. Just minor. You know, first of all, there was the trail a mile long of threatening I.M.s against Brian where he literally threatens to kill him. Yeah. Then there was the fact that Tom left a peach pit at the scene of the crime. What, he was eating a peach while he's murdering this guy? Yeah, I assume he waited out in the parking lot and got his slobbery, nasty DNA all over this peach pit and left it there.

Then there was the fact that Tom was a total idiot and at robbery, nasty DNA all over this peach pit and left it there. Then there was the fact that Tom was a total idiot and at one point had told one of his employees, hey, if I ever committed a murder, I'd use an M1A1, which I'm very knowledgeable about guns, so let me tell you. Yeah, so I didn't even know it was a gun. Apparently it's a somewhat rare old military gun. Okay. And guess what?

it's a like somewhat rare old military gun okay and guess what the shell casings from the crime scene came from that weird old timey rifle but tom didn't have that rifle in his gun cabinet because he was innocent not because he ditched the murder weapon but then investigators found an old photo of cindy montgomery and in the background of that photo was the gun cabinet. And guess what? It was in there? Yeah. Obviously, they arrested Tom. Yeah.

And when they did, they were like, Hey, um, not sure how to tell you this, buddy. Because, you know, this whole time, Tom thinks that he has murdered this 22-year-old man over this tall, hot blonde who's 18. Yeah. And they're like, uh, you were never talking to a tall, hot blonde. You were talking to her dumpy, 46-year-old mom. Oh, my gosh. And Tom paled.

Okay, Tom in the freaking documentary tries to like you can tell he's embarrassed uh-huh but he doesn't want to act embarrassed so he tries to kind of put it on her like well you know i she did she was a great actress great actress yeah and part of it was you know she seemed so naive like only an 18-old girl would believe that a guy could go on these recon missions and have a computer with him the whole time. Oh my gosh. It's like, no, you're the idiot, man. Yeah. But Tom refused to confess.

Because he hadn't done it. He'd been home that night that Brian was murdered, and his wife and daughters would back him up. So they went to Cindy, and Cindy was like, nice try, dum-dum. She told the police, no, Tom definitely wasn't home that night. Meanwhile, Brian's family was devastated. I cannot imagine this. So they were, of course, blindsided by their son's murder, but they were also blindsided by this ridiculous story behind the murder. Yeah.

First of all, they had no idea that he'd been talking to anyone online named Jesse. They had no idea about this weirdo at work who was giving him shit. This all came as a terrible shock. Yeah. Can't even imagine. No. The more they learned, the more they were struck by how senseless their son's murder had been. They wondered how no one involved had ever called the police and said, this Tom guy seems like he's off his rocker. Why didn't fucking Mary call the police? Yeah.

Or the people at work, honestly. Well. Okay, so the night that Tom killed Brian, he called Mary and told her that he had done it, right? Yeah, which is a fact they just sprinkle in the documentary and don't go back to. But I'm like, uh, bitch, you should have called the cops that night. Yes. I mean, ideally, you would call way before then when he says that your boyfriend came within a pussy hair of dying. Yeah.

This woman loved the attention. I guess. They were horrified by Mary. What kind of mom uses their daughter's photos like that? their daughter's photos like that. Meanwhile, Tom's defense attorney, John Malloy, was like, oh boy, this case is impossible. Yeah. Maybe we can do an insanity defense.

He looked into that, but he kind of realized that Tom had so clearly planned out and plotted the murder that an insanity defense just wasn't going to work. For what it's worth, Tom wanted to go to trial because, again, he was totally innocent. But his attorney was like, look, man, in my professional opinion, when you've got this kind of evidence against you, you're probably not going to get acquitted.

Our best shot is a plea deal. Yeah. And they got one. But Tom really hemmed and hawed over this thing because he's an idiot who lives in a fantasy land. He literally took days to consider whether he should accept the plea deal. Give me a break. Ultimately, he did take it. He pled guilty to first-degree manslaughter. Wow! Uh-huh. That's a hell of a fucking deal. Yeah, can you imagine

hemming and hawing over this when you've got your fucking peach pit DNA at the scene? You got these stupid chat logs that say you want to kill him. Ugh. The judge accepted the plea, but she had no time for any bullshit. She was like, this was a senseless killing. It was a love triangle between three people who did not even know each other.

I kind of don't like that because it, I don't know, it makes me feel bad for Brian. Brian, yeah. Brian was just like, he was just a 22-year-old guy. I mean, I think he was in this in a casual sense at best. Thomas was sentenced to 20 years. Assuming he doesn't fuck up, he'll be out in 17. Wow. That's not nearly enough.

No. That is a hell of a fucking plea deal right there's multiple examples of premeditation i don't understand why he got that deal it made me wonder if maybe brian's family didn't want to go through with the trial It made me wonder if maybe the prosecutor was just not feeling up to it I don't know Oh my gosh Seems kind of like a slam dunk case Yeah

Maybe everybody was too grossed out by the IMs they'd have to read out loud in the courtroom. But what about Mary? Yeah, she is culpable to some degree. Mary has not faced any charges. And she won't face any charges. Why? Because she didn't face any charges. Why? Because she didn't break any laws. Even not reporting when she knew someone was murdered?

Again, they just sprinkled that in and I couldn't find any kind of follow-up on that. The way the prosecutor explained this was she didn't tell Tom to commit murder. She didn't assist him in any way. And catfishing isn't illegal, and neither is being the world's creepiest mom. No shit. Yeah, because her daughter is actually 18, so it's not like she was. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just wonder about if you know someone's been murdered and you don't report it, isn't that a crime?

I think it could be pretty easy to slip out of that because Tom had said so many things in the past that I think any decent attorney could be like, oh, well, he said so many things. I didn't think it was real. Yeah. think it was real. Yeah. Brian's parents are obviously very upset by the fact that Mary hasn't had to face any consequences for her actions. And since what she did isn't illegal, they're afraid she'll do it again. Uh-huh.

So according to the documentary, they're working to get more internet protection laws passed. I couldn't find anything on if anything happened with that. I think it should be illegal to catfish people. Yeah. I really do. But it'd be difficult to... Oh, it'd be super difficult. Yeah.

But a lot of things are difficult, Brandy. It's true. This may surprise you, but since all this happened, Mary and her husband Tim have gotten divorced. Oh, shocking. Tim thinks Mary is a piece of work and that she's not remorseful at all. She's not? Okay, get this.

This is nuts. So he says, this is all according to him. He says Mary only told him what happened on the day she had to go testify before the grand jury. But she gave him this really bare-bones story. Hey, honey, I'm going to go testify today. There's just this guy I was, like, in a chat room with. I was talking to him about, like, the weather and stuff. And, oh, my gosh, things just got crazy.

Yeah. That's kind of, yeah. Holy shit. So she tells him next to nothing. And she told her daughter, Jessie,

nothing. Guess how Jessie finds out that her mom had been using her pictures to lure creepy old men online.

How? The news. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck. And apparently, her pictures to lure creepy old men online how the news yeah yeah fuck and apparently jesse you know obviously flipped out and called her dad and like didn't even believe that her dad didn't know the whole thing and he was like no i i'm finding this out at the same time you are oh so as of the airing of the documentary, Jesse and Mary are not speaking. Jesse says her mom never apologized and never explained herself. Wow. They did get an off-camera interview with Mary, and here's what she said.

She said she was bored and lonely, and she only continued talking to Tom because she wanted to ensure that he wasn't talking to any actual teenagers. Okay. So she's kind of, gosh, kind of like a, I don't know, an angel, maybe a saint. Vigilante. Yeah. Yeah. And she also told the documentary crew that she plans to write a book about the dangers of the internet.

Oh, good. I did try to Google that. Let's all hold our breath for when that book comes out. Holy shit. Mm-hmm. Tom has appealed his case. Of course. He says his attorney pressured him into pleading guilty.

To the best plea deal ever. Shut the fuck up, Tom. Yeah. He's, okay, he lives in a fantasy land. He lives in a total fantasy land. I think he thinks that if he'd gotten in front of a jury, he could have like somehow charmed them with his nine-inch penis or something. I don't know.

I don't think they let you show that in court. Do you know? This is New York, so maybe the laws are different there. Oh, it might be. Might be. But again, you know, like I said, I watched this documentary.

I was like, oh, I'll do some extra research. No, I couldn't find anything on that, which I imagine that was thrown out because that was ridiculous. I'm sure. Yeah. Holy shit. And that's the story of a tall, hot blonde.

Oh, my gosh. Poor Brian. I think that it's so tragic. Like, his life was cut short over something so stupid. Yeah. So stupid. And I don't think he had any idea how deep he'd gotten into it. How serious the situation was.

No. None at all. He thought some creepy weirdo was being a creepy weirdo at work, you know. Probably laughed at the guy because, oh, God. Oh, my gosh. You should never laugh at the VP of a swim club. Too much power there. Oh, my gosh.

The fact that Mary has shown no remorse. It's disgusting. That's disgusting. She's 100% doing it again. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Hmm. Poor Brian. Yeah. And Tom is just disgusting. Oh, oh! The thing I was going to say about the documentary. Oh yeah, your problem with the documentary. Okay, okay.

You got issues. Issues with the documentary. Okay. The narrator is Brian. Speaking to us from beyond. Oh. I know. Oh, I don't like that.

Terrible choice. I hate it for so many reasons. One, it's weird. Yeah. Two, it's not necessary. Just have a,

just a standard narration. And three, I really fucking hate the idea of like, this man has died. Yeah. And now we're putting words in his mouth yeah i don't think that's not okay no so there's that then they've got like this psychologist who's

like weighing in on tom's psyche or whatever and they filmed him in like what looks like his very weird living room he's got a dragon statue in the back room that's just hideous, and he's got stupid opinions. So at one point, they were kind of wondering, why didn't he kill Jesse? Why kill Brian? And the guy was like, well, because he's a Marine, and Marines only kill men. It's like, no!

What? No, man! Tom killed Brian because he thought Jesse was legit an 18-year-old girl who had a shot with. He wanted to eliminate the competition. It wasn't because of some marine code. No. But yeah, there were just a bunch of takes like that that I thought were very stupid. Also, the guy had sweat over his upper lip.

And it's like, how did a production assistant not just dab, dab, dab dab dab a little rice paper on that puppy right right anyway also okay i'm sorry this is very rude of me to talk so much shit when clearly i mean this whole thing came from tall hot blonde it's very informative they also included a lot of like the cyber sex between Brian and Jesse. Yeah. Which I didn't include here. Yeah. They just, they included some of this stuff and I just feel like.

That's not appropriate. You know, I'm fine with laughing at Tom and Jesse, but like Brian's dead. Yeah. We don't. Brian was the victim of a horrible. Yeah. Two horrible people. He was victimized by both of them oh absolutely huh

i didn't care for that we did kind of similar cases we really did gross yeah love quotation marks around love yeah so it's interesting you didn't like the take on the psychiatrist there was a psychiatrist on the in the documentary i like that or that i watched that i didn't like either oh really yeah he talks about how at one point they did like a psychological evaluation on bert when he was was facing trial and they diagnosed him as a psychopath. Okay. And he goes, it's a terrible diagnosis. Burt is not a psychopath. Well, I'd

like to hear more. That's it! I'd like to hear more, sir! That's all the information! Okay! We have to take your word for it. Well, we're both upset with these cases. Yeah. Should we move on to questions from the Discord?

Yeah, let's do it. They've got to be better. Don't have been these cases. First of all, how do people get into this Discord? They join our Patreon at patreon.com slash LGgtcpodcast at the $5 level or higher if you feel nasty. Nasty? Yeah.

Mmm. If you want someone to slide their snake into No! No! That's for the $10 level. Oh gosh. Um. What you got, Brandy? All right.

Gracky wants to know, what is your best tip for cutting your hair at home? Don't. Don't do it. I understand the struggle because lots of places, salons are still closed down. And there's the COVID procedures and all that. Just please don't do it. Brandy. Yeah.

What if they've had a glass of wine and they're feeling really confident? Oh. And you can't talk them out of it. Then what do you say? At least don't do the bangs. But the bangs are the ones that, that's what people want to do is the bangs. Yeah, but it's just risky. All right, don't cut any harsh lines.

Only point cut. But you're going to cut your fingers off, so. Well, but you can go to the ER right now. Do it at your own risk. Here's the deal. Once you've cut a straight line, you're never blending that out of there. So you've got to do the point cut, give it a more textured, more natural look. You guys, Brandy doesn't like this.

I hate it. She shook her head the entire time she answered the question. What I've learned is that we shouldn't do it. Don't do it. Just say no to home haircuts. Molly Go Lightly asks, nachos aside, do y'all have a pre-recording ritual or warm up? We haven't had nachos in so fucking long. But we do

toss a baseball in the backyard to warm up. Can you imagine? No, we always have lunch. Yeah, we have lunch. Yeah. And we sit around

and chit chat. Yeah. And this morning, and today, you know, Norman and I had an argument about mulch and Brandy was Judge Judy.

Yeah. My lunch has sucked the last three times, though. I know. Because we're at the mercy of home delivery. Yep. Three meals in a row. Three pre-recording meals in a row have sucked, Kristen. See, this is the thing.

The three of us all love food. Yeah. It just sets the tone. And so when we get a bad bad meal it's uh yeah i so we did chipotle today yeah i asked for light rice they gave me all the rice and you did order extra i can't order extra cheese which i always order extra cheese from chipotle that was the most cheese i've ever seen in my life it was hilarious it was it was like a comical amount of cheese on my burrito bowl it was just it was a sad day guys yeah feel sorry for us yes please uh possum by night asked do the benefits of hiring a sound

engineer on looks alone outweigh the cons we have had some issues we have yeah i hadn't even considered that that was the kind of a nepotism hire going for my husband yeah uh gina asks uh my hair is falling out do you have any suggestions a couple of things you can try biotin biotin is just a vitamin that can help you could do nioxin is like a hair treatment system it's like a shampoo and scalp conditioner also i'd really recommend i'm not a doctor not a doctor for the record but i'd recommend getting your your hormone levels checked it can be a sign that you have like a thyroid um problem there's actually lots of hormone issues that can

lead to hair loss so it's always good to get a blood panel run if you're having significant hair loss. And do a little home haircut. No. That ought to help. She Persisted asks, how do you work from home? I still haven't figured out how to be productive. Anxiety helps. figured out how to be productive anxiety helps maggie s is doing this harder as a parent as a parent i cry over the weirdest shit now uh yeah i had a very strong reaction to your case that you did last week yeah which i don't think while it was a horrible case and very sad i don't think i would have had that same reaction you totally wouldnondon. You totally wouldn't have. Yeah. I'm hoping London changes the cases that you pick.

I'm hoping that thanks to London, we never have to hear another child murder again. My God. Oh, you're making a face. Have I done a murder since I had London? I'm sure you have. That seems... Maybe you have.

You've done an accidental death with the Twilight movie. Twilight Zone movie, sorry. Yeah. Different. Different movies. Totally different. I did the Jeremy London kidnapping. I did this weird love case.

What else? You did The Watcher. No one died in that one. It's a whole new brandy. Oh my gosh. Is this real? Have I not done? I haven't.

I've not done a murder since London was born. Interesting. That's not intentional. I still love murder, guys. Make no mistake, I'm a big fan of the family annihilator. Weird. Huh. Hmm.

Hmm. I think that's really weird. It is weird. What do you make of that? I don't know. It hasn't been intentional. Well, of course it hasn't been weird. It is weird. What do you make of that? I don't know. It hasn't been intentional. Well, of course it hasn't been intentional. That is weird.

I think we reveal a lot about ourselves in what cases we're drawn to because we never consciously think, this week I want to do a horrible house fire. Let me go find it. You just, you know, we pick the stuff we're drawn to. Yeah. Before London, you were a big creepy weirdo i'm still a big creepy weirdo don't worry oh no i don't think you are molly go lightly asks is the lamp plugged in yes the lamp is plugged in but so is the computer thank you everything's charged and at the ready

silicon asks what are your favorite pods i feel like we talk about this but i feel like it always changes so like i'm super into radio rental right now yeah yeah the rain wilson yeah yeah yeah oh so good um the so see that one what it's very bingeable though so you like listen to the whole, like, two days and then it's over. Very sad. There's only two seasons of it. I also just started listening to Smartless. What's that?

Smartless. Like, what's smart? Yeah. I don't like the name of it, but it's Jason Bateman, Will Arnett. Should have named it stupid. Jason Bateman, Will Arnett, and Sean Hayes. The three of them. Yeah.

They've all been friends forever. And they bring a surprise. One of them brings a guest on every week. And the other two don't know who it is. That's really cool. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Obviously, Dax Shepard was my favorite guest on that. Oh, my God. He was my first guest. Oh, my God. Well, we started off this episode with I truly loved Obsessed with Disappeared. Yeah. And I love True Crime Obsessed. They didn't ask for a plug for that one, but too bad.

Too bad we're giving it anyway. It's a BOGO deal. I also have started listening to a trivia podcast, which I didn't even know was a thing, called Pod Quiz. It's like they're little 15-minute episodes, and it's like five categories of trivia. It's Kristen. Kristen just fell asleep while I was describing that. I love it. Oh, I'm sorry.

I just woke up. Okay. You're not going to like this one either. Oh, good. spoke up okay you're not gonna like this one either oh good well some people know that i enjoy the program 90 day fiance there's a podcast about it there are multiple um so i mentioned on an episode i think i mentioned on the bonus episode that i like 90 day fiance yeah so my friend danielle texted me and was like oh my god my God, you love 90 Day Fiance. You would love 90 Day Gaze. And I was like, never heard of this.

I have listened to probably 15 episodes in the last couple days. These guys, they do the best impressions of the cast members. I can't tell you this because you don't, you're not into it. I don't. I'm sorry. I'm very happy for you that you've discovered this podcast. You know I don't. I can't do reality TV.

It makes me too uncomfortable. Okay. Well. Almost as uncomfortable as when you said her panties were wet earlier. Crushing his heart made her panties wet, hate to tell you that's just how it is oh adjusted for inflation once enough there's any chance of a show with uh specifically with dp and norman as they both own 50 of the podcast oh my god i don't think the world is ready for the two of them. Dong Outline, who looks super hot, by the way,

he asks, is the breaker flipped on for the outlet the charger is plugged into? He seems convinced that everything will go wrong on this podcast, and I don't know why. If you're new to the podcast, dong outline is David. That's why I said he's super hot. I'm not objectifying our patrons. You guys, if you sign up for our Patreon,

Brandy will sexually harass you. It's just one of the perks. She'll message you creepy things and she will pretend to be an 18-year-old Marine. No! No! Heidi Fleiss's prison lover wants to know, Kristen, have you ever considered writing a novel based on one of the whack jobs you've covered on this show? Oh, yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Yeah. I have thought about doing a Cassie Chadwick book. But I don't know that I'd want it to necessarily be a novel. I think I'd want it to be nonfiction, but I would want it to read like a novel. Yeah. I'd also want it to be very good, and I'd like it to be published. And sell millions of copies. Yes.

Humble goals. Humble goals. I'm just millions of copies. Yes. Humble goals. Humble goals. I'm just a dreamer. Yes. On January 2nd, 2021, I will have a best-selling novel and a nine-inch penis. And I will look like a red-headed Harrison Ford. Weird goals. Weird goals.

Don't judge me. I put it out into the universe and it has to happen now. Did you ever read The Secret? No. I read The Secret. You did? Sure.

Did it work? Um, do you know the creepiest thing about The Secret? No. Everything that happens to you is your fault.

Oh, whether it's good or bad? Yeah, because if you buy into that, that you manifest everything, if you get cancer... That's your fault? Well, I mean, that's the logical... Yeah. Right? Yeah, I don't like it. Well, you don't like it, but it's the truth, Brandy.

They call it toxic positivity because like bad things can happen to you but i don't know there's some weird section of the health self-help world that's like no i like it it's all about positive thinking it's all about you're shaking your head big time because there's a cult that thinks that too if bad things happen to you it's your fault It's all about positive thinking. It's all about... You're shaking your head big time. Yeah, because there's a cult that thinks that, too. If bad things happen to you, it's your fault. What cult might that be? A cult called Scientology. That is a religion!

How dare you? It's a religion! Don't you persecute anyone. Okay. Emaiman 8. Emaimen 8. Emaimen 8. I guarantee you that's how it's pronounced. Emaimen 8. Is coming for us.

Why? About nachos. No. They say shredded cheese on nachos is delicious. No. You know you have to melt the cheese, right? Yes, we know. Okay.

We know that you have to melt the cheese, right? Yes, we know. Okay. We know that you have to melt the cheese. Even when you melt the shredded cheese, it's not that good. Yeah. No, absolutely not. Okay, in a pinch, that will get you by if you need some nachos. You're still gonna be craving nachos afterward.

It does not hold a candle to queso. Yeah. Melty, delicious cheese dip all over those nachos. No. How dare you? Oh, my God. Juvenile Bigfoot wants to know, when are you covering the Larry Nassar case? Ugh.

Ugh. A guy who abused a bunch of kids? No. Yeah, the gymnastics doctor. Ugh. I have thought about it. I've like every documentary yeah you watch athlete a yeah yeah very good documentary well so was the prices of gold yeah that was good um i don't know that's rough talk about a bunch of kids who are sexually abused it sounds terrible.

Well, we know Brandy's not going to cover it for sure. I'm definitely not covering it. Because she's light as a... Feather stiff as a board? You know what I was thinking of? I was picturing cotton candy, but I couldn't... I'd already said light as a... And you can't say light as a cotton candy. Brandy's just a bag of cotton candy.

And Norm's just a bag of beans. Bag of beans. Should we tell them? Yes! Okay, guys. So, Norman does a lot of work for the podcast. And we want to pay him. Yeah, there's some specific work we want him to do for us.

And we were like, okay, how much would you pay us to do this? No, how much would you charge us to do this for us? And at first he's like, no, no, nothing, nothing. Nothing, you guys are my friends and blah, blah, blah. Which I think it's weird that he called you his friend, Kristen. I know, I was like, I thought we were more than friends. But no, we're like, no no the podcast is making money now like you don't have to give us the free deals that you gave us for like two years in the beginning yeah the man was such a weirdo he's like no no nothing

nothing and then he's like okay uh 20 bucks which is like the type of work we wanted. It was just ridiculous. And then he's like, um, just buy me an edger. An edger. So we're like, what is this? It's like this is an old timey bartering times. Where we buy you a bag of beans in exchange for your services. Thank you for your

good good work, sir. Poor Norm. Oh, goodness. Sweet Norm, trying to do nice stuff for us. And we reject it all the way. We did reject it. Well, for real. I mean, we can't write off an edger as a business expense.

No! Oh, no, this is all on the up and up. We had a contract employee who we paid with lawn equipment. Oh, goodness. Okay, I kind of like this. Cat in the Clouds. What? What do you got?

What do you got? Cat in the Clouds wants to know, if you guys were going to bring out a Midwest-themed cookbook, what recipes would you include? Excluding those featured on the bonus videos, of course. Okay, if you and I ever did a book, I think we should include recipes. I think that's very on brand for us. I do too.

Ooh, I'd have to reveal my secret to the chocolate chip cookies. I mean, would you do it for the people, Brandy? I probably would. I make really good cookies. I'm the humble brag. Wow. Oh, she's so humble. My God.

There's a secret to my cookies. Her cookies are amazing. Yeah. So I'd have to reveal the secret. You sure would. Mm-hmm. I'd put it right out into the universe. Or you could not reveal the secret, and then people would make them and be like,

Brandy's not that good at making cookies. Or maybe they'd be fine with it, because, you know, cookies are cookies. Cookies are cookies. Yeah, even the worst cookies are still pretty good, right? Yeah, yeah. But no, you make amazing cookies. Thank you. Oh, I would do my mom's sweet potato souffle.

It's my favorite thing at Thanksgiving. So that recipe would be is a really good one. I think it's very Midwest-y. Well, it doesn't sound Midwest-y with the souffle. It's literally a little fancy for these parts. It's basically like if you put like the pecan pie topping. Oh, yeah. On top of like a sweet potato pie.

It's so good. Oh my God. It's like a dessert essentially, but you get to call it a side dish. So fruit on your Thanksgiving plate. Yeah. How much? Give me the fraction of how much is that souffle? So much.

I love it so much. I wouldn't try it for years because I didn't think I liked sweet potatoes. Oh my God, Brandy, you are so ridiculous. Wouldn't try it. I wouldn't. Wouldn't try a bite. That's so you. I didn't think I liked sweet potatoes. Oh my God, Brandy, you are so ridiculous. Wouldn't try it. I wouldn't. Wouldn't try a bite. That's so you. I wouldn't.

And then my mom was like, I swear it tastes like a pie. It's so good. And I was like, all right, give me the tiniest bite. And I was like, sniffing it first. Yes. You're so. You know, I worried about the texture. I don't like textures.

What would happen if you had a texture you did not enjoy in your mouth? I wouldn't like it. Right, but like, then it's over. Yeah, I guess. What do you mean you guess? Can you say that about anything, though? No. No.

I don't want to go skateboarding because I could break my leg. And then it's over. You don't want to try a bite of something yeah you just you know knock that back have a little water no no no it's on your mouth all day i i i can't explain to i mean if i okay if i ordered a bean burrito okay from taco bell i order it with no onions okay if i did not check it and bit into it and there was a crunchy white onion in there right it would ruin the whole meal for me yeah i understand that like i would be i couldn't it's and it's more the texture than the flavor.

Like, biting into something that's supposed to be smooth and cheesy and gooey, and then getting that crunch of an onion, oh, it would ruin it. Wait. I probably wouldn't eat the rest of the meal. Even if you had another, like, bean burrito that was perfectly fine, you couldn't. Oh, wow. The drama. You're as dramatic as Marine Sniper with some of this.

My heart is ice cold from this diced onion that I had. Easy, that guy murdered someone. Okay. I just say I wouldn't eat a burrito. I don't know, maybe this is like, you know, it starts. The on-ramp? Yeah, like you get the diced onion, you is like, you know, it starts. The on ramp? Yeah. Like you get the diced onion.

You're like, oh my gosh, that ruins the meal. Maybe this ruins the day. I have to kill somebody. Sometimes the, so onions like a double edged sword for me because sometimes the smell of raw onion is so much that I can't enjoy a meal. Like if somebody else has onions all over it, I'm like, so if you're out to eat and someone orders a steaming plate of fajitas. No, because those are cooked.

It's raw onions that I make. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah. Huh. If, okay,

if I were eating lunch with someone and we got sub sandwiches. Okay. I had my sub sandwich and they got their sub sandwich and theirs had raw onion

all over it. The smell of that would affect the way my sandwich would taste to me. Man. You're a very sensitive soul, my friend. My God. Okay. Okay. There are few things that would have that impact, but raw onion is really, that's a big one for me.

Were you forced to eat a raw onion as a child? No. I've never had an unpleasant experience with a... Were you smacked with a raw onion? I was not. Were you pummeled with a bag of raw onion? I was never victimized by a raw onion, so. Okay, let's, the secret this.

Uh-huh. Say this. I love raw onions. No! You won't say that. Okay, now you've ruined it. You have told the universe. Brandy, Brandy, repeat after me.

I love raw onion. Oh, no, you can't say it. See, the universe is on to you sister it heard the sarcasm are we done are we done with these questions are you done shaming me about my onions my and my dislike of them listen i was trying to use magic to fix this whole thing for you. If I come into the salon, this happens somewhat regularly. Raw onions are in the salon? If I come into the salon and someone earlier in the day, like one of the girls that works the desk, ate onions, I can tell you that onions have been in there.

I'm like, oh my God, did someone have onions for lunch? I'll be like, I had a sandwich earlier. You're like a bloodhound. I am. Only when it comes to onions. Oh, my gosh. Norman's that way when I've had Caesar salads. Really?

Yeah. It's the anchovy? I don't eat anchovies with it, but like. Most Caesar dressing has anchovies. Yeah, it has. Yeah, but like if it comes separate, like sometimes the anchovies will be on top. I don't. But anyway.

Yeah. If we will hug later in the day for a smooch-a-looch, he knows immediately. That you've had a Caesar salad? He's on to my business. Yeah. That sounds disgusting. I'm sorry. Not business.

Anyway, this episode has been disgusting. Are you saying that your business smells like anchovies? No! Oh my God! Anyway, this episode has been disgusting. Are you saying that your business smells like anchovies? No! Oh my god! Seems like a pretty personal thing to be talking about on the podcast, Kristen. Oh my god, cut all of this!

Don't shame me about my raw onions. Oh, you've got a veg that smells like anchovies. Hmm, different standards. Okay, anyway, Supreme Court inductions. It smells like anchovies. Hmm. Different standards. Okay, anyway, Supreme Court inductions. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. How do people get into the Supreme Court? They study the law.

They have to like beer a lot. I like beer. I like beer. God, what a fuckwad. That's enough political talk for this podcast. Way too political. Anyway, we are now moving on to Supreme Court inductions. As you may or may not know, all of these folks have joined our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. And this week we are reading their names and favorite books.

Audra Farron. Let's Pretend This Never Happened by Jenny Lawson. Sienna. Just Mercy by Brian Stevenson. Isaac Baker. Tales from the Thousand and One Nights. Louise. The Book Thief. Cece. The Manson Women and Me. Ooh, never read that. Checking that one out. Courtney. First Person Plural.

My Life as a Multiple. Brooke. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. Hallie. Jane Eyre. Tori. Eat, Pray, Love. Samantha Saylor.

I Was Told There Would Be Cake. Jenny Jexlando. A Confederacy of Dunces. Jessica Frazier. 100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram patreon game rooms chat lots of chat rooms 18 and under chat rooms oh god oh and we've heard about those stings so yeah so we're just in there yeah because we're not weird or anything no definitely not oh we're in no chat rooms except for the discord that's's our only thing. Please subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating.

Leave us a review. And be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web

and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the documentary Tall Hot Blonde. I got my info from the documentary Crazy Love,

The Washington Post, The New York Times, and The Guardian. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.