Let's Go To Court! - 139: A Facebook Stalker & a Foreclosure

Episode Date: September 9, 2020

It all started with a friend request. Amanda Playle was flattered to see the Facebook request come in from her old high school boyfriend, Anthony Reynolds. The two hadn’t spoken for a while, but they quickly reconnected. They talked about their lives. So much had changed since their high school days. Amanda was married to her husband Paul. She’d become a mother. Over time, she admitted to Anthony that her marriage wasn’t perfect. But when Anthony pressed her to meet up, she declined. She didn’t want to cross a line. But Anthony refused to take no for an answer. Soon, he began stalking and harassing her. Then Kristin tells us about a man who fell behind on his mortgage payments. Tony Kiritsis planned to turn his real estate into a shopping center, but after falling behind on his payments a few too many times, he found himself under the threat of foreclosure. He was livid, but didn’t blame himself. He blamed Meridian Mortgage. So he showed up at their offices one winter morning with a sawed off shotgun and took mortgage broker Dick Hall hostage. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary “Dead Man’s Line” Deadmansline.com “Tony Kiritsis” entry on Wikipedia “Kin testify Kiritsis held sister hostage in 1969,” by Carolyun Colwell for The Courier-Journal “Kiritsis jury ‘far from a decision,’” by Kristie Hill for the Associated Press In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Stalker Inside My House” episode BBC Outlook “Amanda was terrorised by a stalker for two years. Then she learned her husband was to blame.” by Jessica Clark, mamamia.com “Man jailed for stalking wife by impersonating ex-boyfriend” by Damien Gayle, The Guardian “Bexhill stalking victim speaks out and urges others to seek help” by Isabelle Cipirska, The Bexhill-On-Sea Observer “SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY Mum-of-three terrorised by stalker for two years horrified to discover it was her own HUSBAND” by Carl Stroud, The Sun “'Calculating and cruel' husband, 43, set up fake Facebook accounts to pose as his wife's EX-boyfriend to threaten her and quiz her over past sex life is jailed for more than three years” by Thomas Burrows, The Daily Mail

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the threat of foreclosure. And I'll be talking about a stalker.

Hmm. Stalkers freak me out. This one's creepy. As opposed to all the other ones. Yeah, you know, there's so many lighthearted stalkers out there. That are just so flattering. I know. They're just constantly complimenting you and just like, you know, showing up with gifts and stuff.

Nothing to be worried about. Okay, anyway, anyway. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. How about today? I'm doing great. How about yourself? I'm doing pretty good. Pretty good. Just gave Normiekins a haircut.

Don't call him Normiekins. What, that's only for you? That's my special bedroom name. No, he has me call him the gaming historian in bed. Can you imagine? And he won't let you make eye contact with him. And I just have to ask him questions

about video games. Anyway, this is off to a weird start. Yes, it is. Should we plug our Patreon? Yeah. What do we got on there? Oh, my gosh. We have an amazing bonus.

Wow. Wow. An amazing bonus video from last month. Yeah. And this coming month. So people went crazy for the video of us reading my elementary school diary. Yeah. Guys.

There's more than where that came from. There's a middle school diary. And in it, I roast the hell out of brandy yep for sitting too close to my man during a movie you know what i'm gonna let it play out on the video okay okay i was gonna defend myself but i'm not even gonna listen according to the historic text that we have you had a crush on multiple boys at the time i had a crush on just one you hadn't told anybody you had a crush on him you should have known to this day i had no idea until you read it out of your diary i played my cards very close to the vest

meanwhile you were just like sitting your butt down next to any old guy. Luring them away from you. Yeah, that's exactly what I was doing. In addition to that amazing video, there's also bonus episodes. There's 14 bonus episodes on there now. My God, count them, folks. And to get the bonus episodes, you'll have to sign up at the $5 level. I'm so glad you banged the table for that.

$5. Yes. People love that when we do that. You can get yourself a $5 footlong or... Ew, don't go to Subway. They've heard the Jared Fogle episode. They know. He's not still associated with Subway.

They kept him for too long. They definitely did. And I'm sorry, because I know those restaurants are franchised. So I apologize. So anyway, this is weird. Yeah. Don't support a child molester. Join our Patreon.

We're trying out a few different pitches, guys. What do you think of that one? At the $5 level, you get all of our bonus episodes and into the Discord. At the $7 level, you get all of our bonus episodes. And into the Discord at the $7 level, you get all that, plus a sticker, our lovely autographs, the horrible videos of me reading from my diary. And at the $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level. The Richie Rich level. That's when you get ad-free episodes and you get them a day early. And you get a dog whose spots are dollar signs

that's a richie rich reference okay i was like what the fuck was that okay i'm very excited for your case because i mean you like a stalker don't you i know it's weird to say i i like hearing about kidnappings and stalkers i know that's weird yeah so i saw this case on reddit and immediately was like google google google is there enough to do this case and then someone aka dirty slut goblin recommended it in the discord by the way in our discord you choose your names brandy didn't just label someone um recommended it in the discord and i was like i just read about this on reddit and she's like that's where i saw it too and then i

was like kristin don't you dare even like glance over here i'm calling dibby dibs right now okay so here we go all right it all started innocently enough one one day in December of 2015, Amanda Plale, a nursery worker in her late 30s from Bexhill, East Sussex, England. I knew it. When you said nursery worker, I was like, that's not what we call them. Fun fact, Bexhill's newspaper is called Bexhill on the Sea something or other. So I guess Bexhill's on the sea. Anyway, Amanda got a friend request from her old high school boyfriend, Anthony Reynolds. How old was she at this point? She was in her late

30s. Okay. Okay. Ooh, all right. Amanda wasn't surprised by the friend request. Anthony had kind of a habit of popping in and out of her life every few years. So she accepted the request and the two began exchanging messages. Initially, the messages were your pretty standard catching up messages. They talked about their lives, what they were up to these days, work, kids, etc. Anthony learned that Amanda had married their schoolmate, Paul, and that they had three daughters together. But as the conversations got more serious, more in-depth, Amanda let Anthony in on the state of their marriage. She and Paul had been together since they were 16.

And after 27 years of marriage... Oh, when you said ex-boyfriend, you really meant like from like... From like 14? Yeah. Wow, okay. So Paul and Amanda had been together since they were like 16. And after 27 years of marriage, Amanda admitted to Anthony that things were maybe not as exciting as they once were. She alluded to the fact that her life had become a little bit lackluster and even made a comment about how if someone picked her up out of her life and set her down on a beach with a cocktail and a book, she'd be a happy lady.

I mean, well well that's yeah yeah isn't that all of us right exactly it wasn't long after that comment that amanda realized that maybe she'd said too much and maybe she was giving anthony the wrong idea because the tone of Anthony's messages began to change. They went from catching up and reminiscing to taking on a much more flirtatious tone. The flirtation began to increase and while Amanda enjoyed the attention at first, she realized she needed to put an end to it when Anthony asked her to meet for drinks. Amanda realized that she was dangerously close to crossing a line, or maybe her toes were already on that line. She thought about her husband, Paul, and how she would feel if he were carrying on with an old female friend like this.

And she decided that she wouldn't be pleased. And so she needed to stop messaging Anthony. Amanda declined Anthony's invitation for drinks and told him that while she might not be as happily married as she once was, she was in fact married and had a family. So continuing their correspondence would be inappropriate. And that was that for a few weeks. Then Anthony began messaging Amanda again. Only this time, the messages had a much different tone.

The messages were aggressive and accusatory. He called her obscene names, including Slag. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they don't like that there. I'd never heard that term before. Gave it a little Google. Yeah, they don't like that there. I'd never heard that term before. Mm-hmm. Gave it a little Google. Yeah. It apparently means slut.

Yeah. Yeah. Not a nice thing to be called. He asked her if her family knew who she really was. Did they know about their affair? Okay, what? He threatened to destroy her entire life. Ew. Yeah.

This guy. He said that he'd tell her family about what she'd been up to. He threatened to contact her employer. He knew she worked at a daycare. He said he was going to contact her bosses and tell them she wasn't fit to take care of children. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Because she was out slutting around all the time what did

he have on her exactly nothing like she'd been flirty yes that's the extent of what he had okay yeah you know i think it's unfair that daycare workers aren't allowed to flirt with anybody well that's the standard we hold them to the threats went on and on so amanda deactivated her facebook account yep she was like that'll put it yeah but somehow she started getting emails from anthony and she was like how the fuck did he get my email address yeah so she blocked him so that he couldn't email her. But then somehow her Facebook. Were they living in the same town? She didn't know.

Okay. Okay. She wasn't, that wasn't like a conversation they'd had. Like, oh, you know, you live here. She hadn't disclosed where she lived and he hadn't disclosed where he lived. Okay. Okay. But close enough that he was asking if they wanted to meet for drinks at some point.

Okay. So the assumption is that, yeah, he still lived nearby. All right. So he's emailing her now because she deactivated her Facebook and so she blocks him so he can't email her. And so suddenly her Facebook has been reactivated. What?

Yeah. She didn't do it. All of a sudden it's active again and she's getting messages from Anthony. This cycle of like deactivating her Facebook, blocking him on an email, all of a sudden her Facebook's reactive again. This kept happening over and over again. So she assumed that he had found a way to hack her Facebook's reactive again. This kept happening over and over again. So she assumed that he had found a way to hack her Facebook. Okay. And it was as if she couldn't get away from Anthony.

No matter what she did, he just kept popping back up. And the threats kept coming. At one point, she was receiving as many as 300 messages a day from him. Oh. And then it escalated. When Anthony wasn't getting the response he wanted from Amanda, so she went to just stop responding to his messages. She couldn't figure out how to keep him blocked, keep her Facebook deactivated. She even went as far as to try and delete her whole Facebook account.

Somehow he'd always get back in contact with her. So when he wasn't getting the responses that he wanted from her, he managed to track down contact information for Amanda's closest friends and family members, including her parents. And he began to message them. He text her parents and he began to message them he text her parents did you know amanda meets me every weekend at a hotel he got their phone number yes do you know she leaves her children to come sleep with me do you know what a slag your daughter is at this point amanda had like come clean to her husband paul about her initial interaction with anthony yeah but she was adamant that like that's as far as their interaction had

gone she had never done anything beyond message him they'd never met in person nothing now her parents were involved and they were beginning to question how truthful Amanda was being about this situation. Oh, my God. How had Anthony gotten their contact information? And so since they're getting text messages from Anthony, they asked him that. And he answered them. He said that when Amanda had met him in a hotel room, once she'd fallen asleep after they'd had sex, he went through her phone and got their number. Come on.

Out of her phone. And she's like, so her parents are like, why are you lying about this to us? Like, you can tell us the truth. And she's like, I'm not lying. Yeah. I've never slept with him. And she's like, I'm not lying. Yeah.

I've never slept with him. I've I don't know. I don't know how he got your information, but it certainly wasn't out of my phone while I was sleeping after hooking up with him. Yeah. He's lying. Oh, fuck. And in an interview that I listened to with Amanda, she said, you know, I didn't I couldn't fault them for questioning me. Sure. Of course. Because it seems crazy. How is this person?

Yeah. How did he get their number? Yeah. Ultimately, her parents were like, just come clean to us. You know, just tell us the truth so we can help you with this situation. You know, this is ridiculous. It's having like a huge impact on your life and continuing to lie about it's not doing you any good and she's like i'm not lying there is nothing worse than telling the truth and everyone thinking you're full of yes yes ultimately somehow she got her parents to believe her at least they told her they believed her right and messages to them from anthony stopped but messages to amanda did not stop and by now this had had like i said a huge impact on amanda's life she was growing more and more paranoid she was depressed and she was embarrassed. She felt like this was all her fault.

She was, which is just terrible. She's being harassed and she's just blaming it. Blaming herself. Yes. Which, you know, you do that. Of course. Of course. She had welcomed the, like, this is what she's saying about herself.

Like she had welcomed the attention in the beginning. She, you know, she liked the way it made her felt. And this is what she got for that. Like, this. Yeah, 300 harassing messages in a day. Right. You deserve it. But the embarrassment over it.

Yeah. Kept her keeping most of it inside. Keeping her from certainly getting any help for it. She was super lucky though, because she had her husband, Paul. She called her husband, Paul, her rock. She could talk to him about the whole ordeal. He, you know, supported her through the whole thing,

assured her that it wasn't her fault. Like, you know, it's, this guy's crazy. You didn't do anything to deserve this. But when she asked him, like, do you think that I should go to the police about this? He was like, I don't I don't think so. I don't think they'll do anything. You know, it hasn't gotten to the point where he's actually physically done anything to you. And so he discouraged that a little bit.

Did he? Mm hmm. a little bit did he but amanda was just so thankful to have him by her side for support and to make her feel safe because things were about to escalate again things had actually been quiet and calm for a few weeks until one day amanda went for a run While she was on her run, she received a message from Anthony saying something like, How was your jog? You just ran past me. Oh, no. Amanda's blood ran cold at the thought.

She was running in her own neighborhood. Was he really watching her? She decided to message him back and call his bluff. She said, no, I didn't pass anyone on my run. And he said, yes, you did. You're wearing a blue track suit and a gray beanie, which is exactly what Amanda had on. She ran home. She was terrified.

And from that day, she began looking over her shoulder everywhere. This guy could be anywhere. Yep. Had he found where she lived? This took it beyond threatening messages. She was terrified. Now, a few days later, Amanda was out shopping when she received another message. Nice handbag. Should we meet at that Starbucks? Amanda was carrying a new purse and was passing by a Starbucks. And her husband knew this? You know, I don't know. I think I do know. That day, Amanda again rushed home and she began to fear leaving her home. Anthony was clearly watching her.

It was like he knew where she was at all times. The messages became more specific. The harassing messages continued. Amanda said at this point, it was like Anthony knew what she was going to think before she thought it. The messages were so specific. It was like he was inside her brain. This would drive you absolutely crazy. Absolutely. She grew more and more paranoid and more and more reclusive. If her husband or children were gone more than a few minutes, she'd begin to panic that something had happened to them that anthony had found them and done something to them it was it was horrible

yeah she talked to her husband paul again like about how much this had escalated and asked them asked her again should she go to the police you know how how how could she stop this and he said again you know you know i just don't think that there's a lot that the police can do do for you bullshit and and so she didn't then okay now yeah i do want to pause yeah this is how we know it's bullshit i feel like women know that the police can't slash won't do much in stalking cases i don't think i didn't know that right and so i'm raising my you think paul has an ulterior motive here yeah i sure fucking do so amanda listened to paul and decided not to go to the police

but this just continued the message is continued The constant fear that she was being watched continued. And then one Sunday morning, she woke up and there was a message from Anthony. It said, I see you still play our song in your car. What the fuck? Amanda didn't know what it meant at first. Yeah, I see you still play our song. And then she suddenly had an idea of what it meant. She got up out of bed, ran downstairs and looked outside and all of her car doors were open.

The car that she was positive that she had locked. Of course. The night before. She went out there and all the cds from her car were splayed out on her seat i know it's it's 2015 what's she doing with cds in her car anyway i mean i think we're focusing on the wrong thing here no we're not this is the problem but all of the cds in her car were like laid out on the seat of her car. And then like one CD that had a specific song on it was like on top. And it was some song that had been like their song in high school.

This is fucked up. What was the song? I don't know. Chumbawumba. Tub thumping. Yes. It's a very romantic song. And she was like, you know what?

I get knocked down. But I get up again. You're never going to get me down. This was it for amanda yeah she knew that she had blocked that car the night yeah i'm dealing with a fucking psychopath and there were husband no suck kristin i'm sorry i'm sorry you tell me about their perfect marriage and i'm like there were no signs that the car had been broken into yeah as if someone had a key it was as if someone had a key so amanda's mind immediately went to anthony has found where i live oh he came into my house yep while we were sleeping he got my keys and went out and

unlocked my car. Like, this man has been in my home. He could attack me. He could do whatever. He could hurt my children. He could hurt my husband at any moment. That was it for her. She decided it was time to go to the police. Is it not the husband?

Am I going to be an asshole? As I've been many times before. Are you going to be an asshole as i've been many times are you gonna be an asshole i guess i guess it's more of a present tense so she finally went to the police right and contrary to what paul had told her the police were amazing she handed over all of her like email passwords and Facebook passwords and everything. They saw the messages. They started looking into those. They actually upped patrols in her neighborhood. They installed a security camera on her house for her.

Wow. They took it extremely seriously. Okay. Yes. Very unexpected. Yeah. I mean, I've heard enough about stalking cases yeah where it's just a horror story of like and how do you know this guy yeah exactly what did you do to egg him on what would you show a little leg on that run how supportive was that sports bra? Okay, okay. Just wore a beanie on the run, huh?

Sounds like you're asking for it. Fun fact, I run naked. Oh, God. Just a beanie and my running shoes. You're like, that's just asking to chafe, Kristen. Asking to chafe. No, I have like a, it's not a lube but it's a you put body glide on yeah hell yeah i do where do you put it on dim titties like they you know they run

you know i wear a tight supportive sports bra yeah so you know if you wear that for like a really really long run and it gets really wet then then you get the chafing, then you get the red marks. And so, yeah, I lube up dim titties. Well, Amanda was doing that as well. You seem to not know what to do with this information. Occasionally between the thighs is a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can imagine.

All right. I can tell when my stories are not welcome. So Amanda has turned over all of these emails, all of these messages to the police, and they're like hitting the ground running. They're looking into them. They're seeing if they can track them backwards. CIP addresses, you know, see all that technical gobbledygook that i don't know anything about i'm sorry when you said cip addresses i heard c as in the letter cip and i was like what's

a cip i'm with you now i'm with you now but amanda felt a lot safer having the police on the case and like that they were taking her seriously yeah because there was a point where she was like am i blowing this out of proportion like you know is this should i really feel this threatened but they them taking it very seriously made her feel validated like yeah yeah this is seriously scary this is very creepy what's happening one day the investigators who were on the case called Amanda and they asked her to come down to the station. They told her they had some information about the emails that they needed to go over with her. And so she did. She came in and they sat her down and they're like, we have some information and you're not going to like it.

OK. And she was like, OK. we have some information and you're not going to like it. Okay. And she was like, okay. They're like, we've tracked the IP addresses on some of these messages. And they're coming from your house. They're coming from inside the house. They're coming from inside the house. And Amanda's like, she was so confused by that that she's like what what do you mean that's not possible uh-huh and they're like we think that anthony is not anthony we think it's your

husband paul yeah pretending to be anthony oh god amanda was devastated she actually was in denial at first she's like absolutely not of course there's that's not possible yeah this this had been so elaborate she'd also been getting messages from this woman who was saying that she was anthony's girlfriend threatening her all it was extremely elaborate fuck off pa. And so they're like, we're going to arrest Paul for stalking and harassing you. And she's like, he's at home with my children,

with our children right now. If you do that, you will traumatize them. And so they agreed to let her leave, go home, separate her children from her husband, take them to a different part of the house, and then they would immediately follow her and come take Paul into custody. Yeah.

And so that's exactly what they did. They arrested Paul and Paul was like, you have got the wrong guy. I don't know what you're talking about. I have just been here supporting my wife through all of this. I haven't sent any messages like you about. I have just been here supporting my wife through all of this. I haven't sent any messages. Like you guys, you've got the wrong guy. I am innocent. They released Paul on bail.

But one of the conditions of his bail was that he couldn't see Amanda and he couldn't see his kids. Amanda really struggled with this because she believed Paul when he was claiming that he was innocent. She really thought that Anthony had found some way to like route the messages to look like they were coming from her IP address. Like that's what she believed in the beginning. Yeah. And I think that makes sense to tell yourself this can't be my husband that's doing this to me so horrible yeah my husband the father of my children yeah has been harassing me yeah torturing me yeah the person that has been comforting me through all of this fucking psycho yeah yeah while paul is out on bail, the messages continue. She's still getting 300 messages a day.

Did she get any messages when he was under arrest? He was under arrest for such a short period because he immediately was released on bail. Wow. But he's like sticking to his guns. I didn't do this you know you guys have fudged this investigation or anthony's really good at technical stuff and knows how to make it look like it was me i've been stitched up was anthony a member of the geek squad i'd never heard that term stitched up that's what paul kept saying framed? I assume that's what that means.

It's Brit speak for framed. Stitched up. Stitched up. I kind of like that. I like it too. Yeah. I like it too. While...

Do you think we'll ever get to go to England together? Oh my gosh. I want to go so bad. COVID has me so bummed. I know. We'll never get to travel ever again. Because Americans don't deserve to travel. That's exactly right.

I heard someone complaining about, you know, like, America. Yeah. You know, somebody was like, if you don't like America, just leave. No, we can't leave. We can't. Nobody will take us. Yes. Because we're too stupid.

Nobody will take us. Because we're too stupid. One day, Amanda has decided she's going to go on a girl's trip just to, like, get away from it all. Yeah. She, I think she leaves the girls with her parents. You know, Anthony's out on bail, but he's not allowed to have any contact with anybody. I mean, Paul's out on bail. He's not allowed to have any contact with anybody.

Little switcheroo. Whatever. So she goes to the Gatwick Airport in England. She's going to board a plane, go have this girl's weekend, whatever. Is she going with friends or is she just like, oh, okay. Yeah, she's going with friends. And she gets a message from anthony it's a picture of the entrance of the gatwick airport oh fuck and so she freaks out she's like he's still following me it's not paul i know it's not paul i told the

police it's not paul so she takes the information to the police. She takes the picture. And they're like, excellent. Because you know what airports have? A million security cameras. Yes. Okay. And so they go to the security office at the Gatwick Airport.

And they have security cameras everywhere. They can watch every car pull into the airport. They can watch anybody, you know, walk through any portion of the airport. They've got the CIPs. That's right. So they're on camera. They're able to watch Paul's car pull

into the Gatwick Airport. They're able to watch him get out of his car and walk up to the entrance sign and take a picture fucking they're able to watch him get back in his car and drive away fucking asshole fucking asshole finally they have like yeah solid proof that it's paul and so they bring amanda back in and they show her this and she's stunned. She had been in such denial.

She just, there was no way it could have been Paul. What a gift that was. No kidding. To finally have the proof right there. Yes.

And so she's like, I can't, I can't believe it. I can't. You would just have a mental breakdown. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh. Paul still, even with that evidence, is like, well, I was just making sure Amanda got off on her flight, okay? Like, I wasn't, I didn't send her any messages. You know, I gotta say, I'm on Paul's side on this. In January of 2018, Paul went on trial for the harassment and stalking of his own wife. A jury deliberated for less than 30 minutes before finding him guilty of stalking and coercive and controlling behavior. He was sentenced to three and a half years in prison.

The judge, Judge Christine Hinson, said to him when she sentenced him, you are the author of your own fate. You watched your wife effectively crumble before you because of the fear she was experiencing from this online abuse. You pretended to comfort her. That is the most calculating and cruel behavior. Despite his conviction and sentence, Paul continues to deny oh shut his involvement paul amanda says that the hardest part is reconciling that this man that she went to for comfort and was her rock for so long yeah was the one that was doing this to her and she has trouble also separating that from the man that she believes

to this day is is an amazing father to their children and she says her children are suffering horribly because this her daughters adore him and it's heartbreaking for them because they don't they don't really understand they're not allowed to see him and they don't understand why and it feels like they're being punished yeah which is terrible amanda said she really battled with embarrassment over this for a long time which i think is just sucks yeah um she was embarrassed initially when she thought it was anthony and then she was embarrassed when she found out it was her husband. Yeah.

But she decided that she's not going to let that overtake her life. And she decided to own what happened to her and take control of her life. And she speaks out about stalking now to help others. Good for her. Yeah. And to not question yourself, to go to the police. Yeah. And she said that she's in therapy.

She thinks she'll have to be in therapy for the rest of her life. Yeah. And that she doesn't believe that she'll ever be able to have a relationship with someone again because of this. Oh, no, no, no. No, Amanda. I know. I hope that therapy helps her with that. Yeah.

Because that would be terrible for that to be the outcome of this. Well, and don't continue to punish yourself. Exactly. Exactly. She's a big fan of the podcast yes yeah she's listening right now she likes how we pronounce english yes that's the story of um a terrible stalker what a total shitbag seriously i hate him yeah How can you do this to the person you love? Yeah. Maybe there's not love there. I don't know.

Or, yeah, I think there has to be some kind of motivation of, like, drawing them to you by this, right? Doesn't that have to be what he's... Yeah, maybe. You know what? Yeah, maybe. Like, I'm going to make her... Depend on me make her depend on me yes i'm gonna control her emotional state i'm going to decide when to bring her up and when

to put her back down hate it i guess i won't do that to norm no that's probably a good idea damn it i had the facebook profile all set up, ready to go. Yeah, the links that he went to by creating these fake profiles, these fake email addresses. And then he was going on and reactivating Amanda's Facebook account when she would deactivate it. I think you're confused, though, because he didn't actually do this. Oh, right. It was Anthony. Yeah, Todd. And Anthony's still on the loose.

He's been stitched up. That's what he said at his sentencing he still maintained his innocence and stood there in court and told the judge i've been stitched up this doesn't surprise me yeah when someone goes to these lengths yeah i mean yeah they're not they're living in a fantasy world and they want everyone else to be in the fantasy world yeah did anth Did Anthony ever, like, the real Anthony ever? I don't know if the real Anthony ever stood up. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Please stand up.

Please stand up. I can't remember the rest of that song. It's not important. Okay, first of all, do you know this story I'm about to tell you? Not based on that little tiniest tidbit you gave. Tony Kiritsis? No. Doesn't do anything for you?

Ma'am, I told you you weren't allowed to do that case because you called double dibs on it. I ignored you. Okay. Oh, shit. someone in the discord suggested this hang on don't look it up brandy don't you do it don't you dare thank you to ermagerd kerber in the discord for suggesting this case um I love this case. As opposed to the ones that you usually think. Yeah, I'm kind of tooting my own horn here. And also tooting. Yeah, guys, I'm doing a pescatarian diet.

She ate tofu for lunch. The fiber is real in this house. I could start a car. Anyway, huge shout out to the dog brandy. You guys, she just took a huge drink of water. You could start a car.

With the amount of gas. I get it. I wasn't confused. You weren't confused by my really sophisticated humor? I'm just saying, like yesterday yesterday I had to apologize to Norm. I was like, the amount of fiber I'm getting in my diet right now is really intense. Anyway, quit asking about it.

So, here we go. Don't recall asking about it. Huge shout out to the documentary Dead Man's Line, which is available on Amazon Prime, if you're interested. Are you sponsored by Amazon Prime, ma'am? Well, I'm just, you know, if people wanted to go watch and, you know, they didn't want to spend the extra money, you know, there you go. Okay? Okay. Also, shout out to the website for the documentary, which was just a treasure trove of information.

Also, thank you to newspapers.com and my mom and dad, you know? Yeah. Your mom and dad, you know? Yeah, your mom and dad. I realized the way I was thanking everyone, it felt kind of like an acceptance speech. Also, also my parents and my loving husband and my animals. But yeah, I mean, basically this whole thing comes from dead man's line. Excellent. Here we go.

Brandy, let me throw a scenario at you. Do it. Let's say you buy some property. You get a mortgage. And at some point, you fall behind on the mortgage payments. Mm-hmm. So the mortgage company works with you, and they say, okay, pay this amount by this day. And that goes okay for a while, but then you fall behind again. And they work with you again, and you fall behind again, and they work with you again.

And eventually they tell you, you know, we're just not going to work with you on this anymore. We're going to go into foreclosure here. Uh-huh. What do you do? I mean, you probably have to move out of the house, right? That's how that works. Oh, so you just roll over and take it, huh? Well, I mean, you don't pay the mortgage, you don't get to live in the house.

Interesting take on this situation. May I humbly present to you a different way to handle foreclosure. All right. Here we go. You squat? Is that the thing? No. Oh, okay.

No, that's not the idea here. This is a real outside-the-box idea. Here, okay. No, that's not the idea here. No. This is a real outside the box idea. Here we go. It was Tuesday, February 8th. I'm sorry, February. I don't know what happened to my mouth. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Brandi's turned into a squeak toy. February. Was it Russian or Minnesotan? You know, people said I didn't have the voice for a podcast, but look at me now, huh? They said, Kristen, we don't want to hear you. And now here I am with a true crime podcast and I guess I'm doing okay, all right? To all you little kids out there with your weird voices, you just reach for the stars.

It was Tuesday, February. Oh, you snorted. February 8th, 1977, Brandy. In Indianapolis. In Indianapolis, Indiana.

You don't say. Yeah, Margie. We're at Meridian Mortgage, which is on the fourth floor of an office building located at 129 East Market Street. Hmm. Well, that's a cute little building. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's like 8 a.m. and Tony Karitsis showed up at

Meridian Mortgage and the admin staff thought it was a little weird that he wasn't wearing a coat, but whatever. They were familiar with Tony. He was a weird guy and they'd seen a lot of him over the past four years. Like of his body body like a lot of his body no i don't think that's what they meant i mean he was like when he came in butt naked they were like he was fully clothed but there was like snow on the streets is what i'm saying so he showed up with one of his arms in a sling and he was carrying a box from a department store and he had a blueprint rolled up under his arm and he was like hey i want to talk to the chairman i want to talk to ml hall and the staff was like well he's in florida on vacation but you could talk to his son richard

the chairman is rarely in the office right t. That's the way it works when you're the chairman. You get to sit on those fat checks and go to Florida. Yeah. So they're like, Richard is the director of Meridian Mortgage. He'll be here any minute. So Tony was like, okay, cool. Pretty soon, Dick walks in and he's like, oh, freaking Tony. Everybody knew Tony. He talked and talked and talked and he was weirdly suspicious of people. But hopefully if he was there at Meridian Mortgage that day, it meant that he was going to make a payment, which would be a nice change of pace. Yeah.

So at any rate, Dick's like, hey, Tony, how's it going? You can come into my office. So Tony comes in and he's like, oh, hey, do you mind if I shut the door? My jockey shorts are just really riding up and I need to adjust them. What? Yeah. You know how it is with your jockey shorts? You're always getting those in a twist.

And Dick was like, uh, sure. Right, because what do you say to that i prefer you wouldn't so tony closed the door and of course dick looked away you know as he presumably messed with his jockey shorts and when he looked up he realized that tony had pulled out a gun. Oh, shit. He was pointing it at him. The sling was gone. The blueprints were gone. Tony ordered Dick to take off his tie and suit jacket and sit in his chair with his back to him. Oh, God. So Dick did what he was told,

and Tony looped a steel cable around Dick's neck. The cable was wired into a sawed-off shotgun, which was now pointed at the back of Dick's neck. The cable was wired into a sawed-off shotgun, which was now pointed at the back of Dick's head, and the cable went around Dick's neck and down through the shotgun's trigger guard

and was attached to a ring on Tony's finger. What is this, saw? Is he the jigsaw killer? This is the weirdest, most elaborate most elaborate thing yeah so this meant that if tony tried to run he'd be dead if either of them fell yeah he'd be dead if law enforcement tried to intervene he'd be dead if someone tried to shoot tony he'd be dead. Oh my gosh. But why was Tony doing this?

Well, you see, he bought 17 acres of land because he wanted to start a shopping center. He'd cleared out some trees, and a grocery store had expressed some interest in setting up a shop there, and oh, it was just just gonna be so great but then the mortgage company stepped in and lured all his prospective clients away from him because they wanted the property for themselves and they were taking advantage of him because you know he'd fallen behind on the payments um but they weren't giving him any leeway because of all the greed. They were going to foreclose on him and sell the land at a profit. So basically, mortgage company bad, Tony good is what you need to know. Okay.

You seem like you're struggling here. Yeah, I'm assuming thatony knows the way a mortgage works and payments are required it's not like an optional thing i think that tony is an entitled butthole but that's just me talking okay so you know naturally tony had no choice but to make himself a shotgun booby trap and take Dick Hall hostage. Dick was terrified, but he remained calm. Meanwhile, Tony picked up Dick's office phone and called 911. Here is a transcript of that call.

Okay. Dispatcher. Indiana emergency. Tony. Sir, this is a dire emergency a real serious thing i've just taken a prisoner it's not a crank call i've got a 12 gauge sawed off automatic shotgun i've got a dead man's line on the trigger there's three shells in the fucking gun there's one in the chamber and a man with a gun on his neck wrapped around it with a cable that's holding the fucking safety in his hand and if anybody yanks on me yanks that gun makes a false fucking move we'll die right here i'm mad at these motherfuckers trying to take me for everything i've got but if

you doubt that i'll kill him you're reading me wrong i'm a mad mean motherfucker my name is Tony Kiritsis. Holy shit. Dispatcher. Kiritsis? Tony. K-I-R-I-T-S-I-S. Dispatcher. Okay. Where are you at, Mr. Kiritsis? Tony. 129 East Market Street on the fourth floor in dick hall's office dispatcher 129 east market tony east market let me tell you something sir you tell these guys to play it cool because this is a real fucking mccoy oh my gosh dispatcher oh i believe you yeah tony i hope you're recording all that, are you? Dispatcher, oh yeah. Tony, I ain't ashamed of a fucking thing I'm doing. I've got to tell you how fucking badly I feel about fucking with you guys like this. It's kind of hard for the average fucking guy to be able to understand this, but it ain't hard for my fucking friends to understand it

because they've seen me die for four fucking years. Dispatcher, okay. to understand it because they've seen me die for four fucking years dispatcher okay we just want to keep you as calm as we can because you don't want to tony shit baby i'm calm there ain't a fucking nerve in my body hey let me tell you i know i'm on a fucking long one way dead end fucking street but i'll tell you one fucking thing i didn't come up here to back down dispatcher how many people are tony you better tell this man not to jerk because if he jerks this fucking gun is gonna go off there won't be no fucking trial dispatcher tony tony what baby okay by the way the dispatcher is a man how many people do you have there with you tony i just have one that's all i wanted dispatcher just mr hall tony yeah just mr hall

so then he kind of says to dick how many people told you i was gonna come kill you did anybody come and tell you tell the truth i told a lot of people I was gonna kill you. Dispatcher. Did you say you had the shotgun on his neck? Oh my gosh. Tony. Hey, let me tell you something, baby. I didn't come up here to get fucked around. Now, if you think you can get this son of a bitch off of him without me getting what i want you guys try it if they move for that fucking gun i'm gonna tell you this man dies they kill me if they kill me they kill me first then he dies it's simple as that i didn't come up here to start a fight with the fucking police department but i'll tell you one fucking thing i didn't plan this to look like a fucking idiot so then he so then he hands the phone over to poor dick hall and dick hall you know gets the phone he's like okay and he says in a very calm voice

i'm scared and the situation is like he says officer it so then the dispatcher goes, okay, okay, we believe him. We are going to get you out. Then Tony takes back over. I'm not trying to give you a bunch of shit, Dave. I think he forgot that Dick's name was Dick. He called it Kristen. It's okay. I'm just trying to tell you the way it is. What I'd like to do is walk him out of here,

but see some fucking hero's going to grab for me if I do. And when they grab for me it's all over because i've got number five shot in this fucking gun and he ain't got a fucking chance i'm gonna give them the same fucking chance they gave me none absolutely none i hope they don't think i'm bluffing david do they think i'm bluffing hey and the dispatcher goes yeah i'm i'm listening tony gosh do they think i'm bluffing dispatcher no they don't tony because i ain't going to jail there's no fucking way i'm going for no motherfucker i've got my finger on the trigger and it's wired to a dead man so it actually goes on i'm stopping it there i'm you look emotionally wrecked right now it's crazy

so the call went on for a while and of course police and news crews headed down to 129 east market street and it was a very tense situation there were snipers everywhere and police were telling idiots to quit sticking their heads out of windows. But everyone wanted to see what was going on. And finally, the two men emerged from the building. The first, of course, was Dick, wearing a button down and dress pants, looking remarkably calm. Holy shit. And Tony was right behind him with the gun rigged up between dick's shoulder blades

and tony by the way was wearing a short sleeve button down and dress pants oh okay and he was like mean mugging everyone as they walked down the streets and he was scowling and kind of looking around because tony's intention was to take dick to his car and get him back to his apartment oh my gosh but oopsies and we've all been there tony forgot where he parked his car oh shit which is a little embarrassing so tony had dick turned and you know they're they're walking a different way now and they came upon a parking garage so they went into the parking garage. It seems like maybe he wanted to, like, steal a car from in there, but couldn't quite pull it off with the police right there. And, you know, no one had their car just running with the ignition in it.

So they walked out of the parking garage and just started walking around. These two guys with one with like this booby trap thing with the shotgun behind his neck. People tried to talk to Tony, but that made him mad. And so he kept walking and stopping and talking and walking and stopping and talking. And poor Dick was just standing there with a gun to the back of his head and a bunch of police officers standing around with their dicks in their hands i mean they they just didn't know what to do yeah it was so weird and a bunch of detectives in plain clothes were walking along and eventually a hostage negotiator stepped forward and tried to talk to tony and he was like tony tony tony and tony was like what's your fucking name you dumb motherfucker get? Get back. Oh, my God. Get back. So in this commotion, keeping in mind that there was snow on the ground,

and it looked like it had been shoveled off of all the sidewalks, but there must have been some ice. Because Tony and Dick fell. They slipped to the ground together, and everyone was like. fell. They slipped to the ground together and everyone was like, but I mean, they must have fallen the exact same way at the exact same time

because the gun didn't go off. Oh my gosh. So Tony and Dick slowly got to their feet and Tony reached for something along his belt. It was a pistol, a pistol that officers hadn't noticed until that moment this whole time tony would not shut up he was like i like police officers some of them are my best friends but i've never seen a dumber bunch of bastards in my whole life you guys aren't doing your job you should do

your job you know i mean holy it's wild and the whole time, Tony's looking for a car. Yeah. Looking for some car to get in. Who the fuck's my car at? So for reasons that are super unclear to me, like I have thought about this a lot. I still don't get it. Police put a car a little ways down the road and left the door open and the engine running and like a big red bow on top.

Oh, my God. Okay, no big red bow, but you get the idea. I get the idea. So eventually Tony and Dick made it to that car. But once they got there, Tony made one of the officers kind of lift his sweater just a little bit and Tony took the handcuffs off the officer. And then all of a, there was a bang. Someone had run their car into a light pole by the DQ.

What? They just ran into a light pole because they were trying to get a good look at what was going on. But it scared the shit out of everyone because, you know, everybody's waiting for this bang. And then they hear the bang. And, I mean, no one's dead. It everyone because, you know, everybody's waiting for this bang. And then they hear the bang. And, I mean, no one's dead. It's just, you know. Oh, my gosh. Right by the hot eats and cool treats.

At this point, Tony and Dick climbed into the car that the police had generously left running for them. Tony climbed into the passenger's side, through the driver's side, and forced Dick to drive. Tony climbed into the passenger side through the driver's side and forced Dick to drive. So the two drove off with a ton of police officers following them. And then they stopped at the Crestwood Village apartments and got out. And Tony took Dick to his third floor apartment. And of course, police came up and a news crew came up and Tony was like, you better stand back. The whole place is wired.

The whole building is going to blow up. Which sounds nuts. Yeah. But was the truth. Holy shit. So get this. He had set up like a network of strings all over his apartment and the strings were holding lit candles. This guy's a fucking looney tune. And the candles were being held over containers of gasoline.

Oh, my. So if anything disturbed the strings, the place would potentially explode. So they evacuated the building, and they were like, boy, it sure was a good idea to give this guy a getaway car. Okay, can we stop? What is the motivation there i don't understand that at all part of me was like were they think were they just taking a gamble that he would go someplace less populated maybe but even then i feel like you can do more damage

in a car yeah i don't know i don't know what the fuck yeah i don't understand but obviously this was a terrible gamble because they gave him the getaway car to get to his rigged apartment holy shit so the snipers couldn't do shit because if they shot him they would break a window in the process and trigger like the mousetrap board game that was this guy's apartment and potentially the whole building meanwhile everybody wanted to know what was going on. But all you had to do was ask the police. Because a lot of the police were actually friends with Tony. He went to the same restaurant where a lot of them got their morning coffee. So they were being interviewed by reporters and they were like, yeah, I mean,

the guy's been pretty pissed about this bad real estate deal he made. And he's in some kind of bad deal with his mortgage. And maybe that's why he took Dick Hall hostage. What made this so shocking was that Tony had always been such a good, even keeled guy. No. Yeah, no. No. He'd been a looney tune from the beginning.

Turns out a few years before this, Tony had held a city official hostage. What? Yeah, they just dropped that in the documentary. No big deal. He'd also held his sister hostage at gunpoint for two and a half days. And oh, guess what? He'd once been arrested for assault and battery with intent to kill because i guess he got real mad at his brothers at some point why is this guy not in prison excellent question we'll get to that

later okay uh so to to break it down he was just a not so white guy with a bunch of friends on the police force nothing to fear nothing to. And he was holding a gun to a man's head in an apartment that he had booby trapped. Yeah. Just a real cool, relatable guy.

Ladies, he was single. I don't know how. It is a mystery. The good ones aren't all taken. So he began making demands. What's he got? What do you think? What do you think he wants?

Does his mortgage forgiven? Well, you're thinking pretty small potatoes. I mean, it was only like 130 grand he owed. Okay. No, no. He wanted to face no jail time for what he was doing. Okay. He wanted to not have to get any kind of psychiatric help for what he'd done.

He also wanted the mortgage company to publicly apologize to him. And he wanted $5 million. Oh. Yeah, that's. Sure. Sure. Why not? Tony made all these demands and of course he had the radio and tv going because the local news was basically the tony karitsis show and tony loved the tony karitsis of course he did at this point the local da held a press conference

knowing that tony would be watching he had a friend of tony's a guy named ford chapman who was wearing his baby bluest leisure suit read a statement on behalf of meridian mortgage it was a public apology from the mortgage company but uh it wasn't super grovelly i gotta say didn't have a lot of soul to it. It was basically like this is a public apology on behalf of us to you for any wrongs we have done. Now cut it

the fuck out. I mean it was really just Do you miss the leisure suit? I did enjoy a leisure suit. I mean they seem kind of fun, right? Will they come back? Stay tuned.

I don't think I have to tell you that Tony was not satisfied with the apology. I'm sure that he was not. So he called up his local radio station and talked to this local news anchor named Fred Heckman. And of course, Fred was like, sweet, an exclusive interview with the gunman. And he played the interview on air. Here is what Tony said in the interview. Are you ready? I'm so ready.

I've been an angry man for 44 years. Nobody has had the adversity I've had. But in spite of that, and without arrogance, and without putting my friends down, and without being egotistical, I am the strongest man mentally that I know. Oh, yeah?

The average guy that would have gone through this would have had a heart attack and or a stroke. And or? These guys are lucky they're dealing with me because some nervous Norman

would have already shot him. Poor Norman. Which is rude to Norman. Yes. Now, I'll tell you what these people tried to do, sir. It's almost indescribable because the average man, he will not be able to comprehend it. These people betrayed. They set me up.

They schemed to ruin a life, a human life, my life. Oh, God. This goes on. to ruin a life, a human life, my life. Oh, God. This goes on. By the way, it is super hard to understand what exactly this mortgage company did to him. Yeah. I've kind of pieced it together from other things, but it just seems like it was a standard

thing that happens in mortgages. Uh-huh. And it sucks to get foreclosed on. It sucks that you might lose this land that you put payments on but like it happens and um he's saying like oh it's indescribable you couldn't possibly understand what i've been i'm the strongest man mentally that i know that he knows exactly brandy no offense to you but i'm the best person i've ever met so he's you know blah blah blah blah bullshit and once he finished praising himself and shit talking the mortgage company he questioned the

sincerity of meridian mortgages apology he was like you know they're just gonna say they said that because i had a gun on dick hall's head which is like yeah that's the that's the thing yeah with forcing apologies at gunpoint people are gonna say whatever and it's not gonna be super sincere yeah then he said i've made a lot of sacrifices in my time i'm a 44 year old man i've never been drunk i've never been married i've never been engaged i've never gone steady shocking yeah it's like the thing i kept thinking okay there's an episode of the office where michael's like i've made so many sacrifices for this company i never got married i never had kids and they were like we never asked you to do that yeah like really were you turning down women right and left again this whole time tony was holding dick hall hostage with his finger on

the trigger and he was demanding immunity from all prosecution and the local da's office was like, what do we do? So they decided to send in some defense attorneys and have them talk to Tony and try to represent him in whatever deal they could get done. But they couldn't reach a deal. By this point, Tony had held Dick hostage for like 30 hours. Oh, my gosh. And there was no end in sight. had held dick hostage for like 30 hours oh my gosh and there was no end in sight deputy county prosecutor george martz held another press conference aimed at tony and in that press conference he read a letter of immunity he said that the marion county prosecutor fingers crossed behind his back the whole time so he he's like, I mean, he's doing the legal, you know, the legalese and everything, granting him immunity from prosecution with reference to the abduction of Richard Hall and all subsequent acts done or alleged, blah, blah, blah.

You know, if Tony quits his bullshit, he will have full immunity. We pinky promise. So Tony was going to emerge from this thing victorious oh my gosh he would get his five million dollars he wouldn't go to jail he wouldn't go to a psychiatrist lord knows he didn't need one brandy don't make that face and he'd have his apology from the mortgage company it was time for t Tony to do a victory dance. What? So the deal was, Tony could have his little victory lap in front of the media. Dick Hall would read the apology in front of all the media with Tony right there if Tony would let him go and take the gun off of him. Uh-huh.

take the gun off of him. Uh-huh. So finally, after holding Dick hostage for nearly three days, Tony came out of his apartment, but he still had Dick at gunpoint. Oh, my gosh. They walked to the lobby

of the apartment complex. And this scene, I mean, again, there's like a million news crews there. So, like like everyone is packed in there it's hot there's like cameras everywhere the lights are on him and he's got poor dick hall who again is like as calm as a person can be with this you know wire like right on his oh god so the authorities did have a plan it was to give tony another getaway vehicle sorry but this time it was going to be a helicopter what i'm just kidding no

no so they brought dick and tony down to this media event knowing that tony might shoot dick in front of everyone. Yeah. But they were going to try to stop that by, like, judging whether Tony was going to shoot him in the moment. I think this thing, to me, was horribly mishandled. The chief of police was standing right there and he had a handkerchief in one pocket and a gun tucked into the other and if at any point he thought tony was about to shoot dick hall he would take out his handkerchief and that was the signal that he was about to kill tony

his plan was to shoot tony in the head and at the time, that would be the signal for this other guy, Mark, who is also a cop, to do his best to grab the shotgun and jam it before it could go off. Oh, my gosh. Which seems impossible to do, but that was the plan. Okay. So there Tony was, nasty and angry as ever, holding the gun on live TV, and he shoved some paper at Dick, and he's like, read that, pal, read it.

But before Dick could read anything, Tony started squawking about how he had friends all over the country. Oh, Lord. And he wanted this on all three national channels. Dick began to read. It appeared to be some kind of you know admission of guilt or whatever this was going to be the meridian mortgages a public apology to tony

dick got halfway through one sentence and tony was looking at all the people who'd gathered to see him and then he was like hold it hold it i want this thing to be understood i'll read it so he took the paper back and stood there with one hand on the gun and the other hand holding the paper and began reading oh my gosh and even though there were like a million microphones everywhere he decided it was necessary to shout yeah here's what he said february 10th 1977 i want a glass of water so good yeah he's a little so then he looks back down at the paper this statement is being made to try and state the items that mr karitsis alludes so then he looks He says, and I don't like that word. I charged and they admitted it.

Then he looks back down at the paper. Alludes to as being illegal and unethical acts of the Hall Group. Then he kind of punched Dick in the arm. This lease negotiation approved the Karitsis site had a definite interest in building there. Then he looks up again. Give me a drink, pal. Give me a drink. Oh, my gosh.

And this guy stepped in and gave him some water, which he tried to pour into Tony's mouth like you would a toddler. Oh, Lord. Well, because, you know, he had his hands full. And Tony took a sip and nodded and said, And I'm sober, friends. I had six drinks in 1976, and I haven't had any this year. Then he goes back to reading

this was presented to us and was potentially a good business deal but we found it impossible to agree on terms satisfactory to our best interest and he looks up again their best interest oh lord i went up there to borrow money to build a 10 000 foot restaurant that would have grossed between a million and two million bucks a year and these motherfuckers shopped it to somebody else i had a lessee who guaranteed me a hundred thousand dollars a year rent plus ten percent over a million dollars and i could have built the building for 220 000 bucks and put a hundred thousand dollars worth of equipment in it then he kind of calms down, and he turns to Dick and kind of shoves him with the gun and says,

listen to this one. It's almost funny. This trooper right here. And then he drags this guy out of the crowd. Come here, Mark. Hell of a good friend of mine. A lot of friends of mine here have seen me. Seen me every night, three or four years out in a couple of restaurants around here having coffee.

Too goddamn desperate to do anything else, so goddamn mad, couldn't think good. And he was always wondering what was wrong. Now he knows. Right, Mark? Mark. Poor Mark. Mark kind of nods and fucking tony who's standing there with his gun smiles at the camera and goes hell of a man good cop this guy then he dropped the papers oopsie

and mark the good cop picked him up and t continued. And this time he was just like full of sarcasm. And he touched Dick and said, This brave young man and his father would have said, Tony, I'll tell you what we're going to do. Because you're a nice fella and because really we love you, we wouldn't hurt you for anything. We'll take the cream. We'll take the front ten acres there for $130,000.

And you can have the back seven where all the hogs shit. Oh my gosh. This guy has a nut job. Yeah. Yeah. Mr. M.L. Hall, this gentleman's father, also states that he personally takes

responsibilities for these improprieties. I'm gonna frame that. I'm through through then he threw the papers on the ground and said where's my attorney the room was absolutely packed yeah uh no one was speaking so tony kept going he gave shout outs to his aunts in Ohio. What? His Greek friends in Florida.

Hey, how's it going? His army buddies in New England. Yo, what's up? He apologized to Dick Hall's family, and then he was like, well, but he had it coming. Oh, my gosh. And he thanked all of his supporters. And then he started crying.

Oh, no. And laughing. What? And crying. And then he started crying. Oh, no. And laughing. What? And crying. And laughing. At this point, everyone was piss your pants nervous.

Yeah. Then Tony asked Mark for help pulling his pants up. And Mark teased him that if he had a butt, he wouldn't need help pulling his pants up you know so oh my gosh this whole thing had gone on for almost an hour and tony thanked his supporters once again he apologized for his language and apologized that

this had to happen and then he led dick into another room at this point the media was unable to follow but the investigators stayed with tony so the media was out in the parking lot and all of a sudden they heard a shot it sounded like a gunshot i'm sorry it sounded like a gunshot. I'm sorry, it sounded like a shotgun. A shot. From a gun. Yeah, from a shotgun specifically. Okay.

And they were like, holy shit, he did it. He killed Dick Hall. Then George Martz, the deputy prosecutor, came out. And the reporters were like, oh my God, what happened? What happened? And one of the reporters asked, is Hall out of danger? And George said, sure, we got him. He's okay. Another reporter asked, where's Tony?

And George said, I have no idea. I don't know. I don't give a shit. This is... Okay. Old timey times. First of all, the fact that the media was allowed to get so close to this thing is crazy to me yeah um and then like i guess these were the days before da's were super media polished yeah because like i loved it though this footage of this da being like i don't know i

don't give a shit it's like it was very real but like you would not catch the local DA saying this to the news today. No, not at all. He said he didn't know what the gunshot was about, but he could confirm that Dick Hall was safe. Turns out, as soon as they got Dick out of that contraption, Tony shot the gun in the air just to prove to everyone that it was loaded. Oh, my gosh. At this point, it was just Tony and the investigators. And the documentary didn't have video of this, but they did have audio.

And it sounded like someone was getting out handcuffs. And Tony was shocked as shit. And he was like, are you arresting me? But you pinky promised. me but you pinky promised it's like did you think that you could hold someone hostage for two and a half days at gunpoint and really walk away with nothing yeah oh i'm sorry walk with with five million dollars and the officer was like uh duh yeah we're arresting you. Yeah, duh. That was their official word. So afterward, the reporters tried to ask the deputy prosecutor for more details about Tony's arrest. And he was basically like, I don't know.

I don't care. Yeah. I wasn't there for that part. I'm just happy everyone's alive. Who cares? Yeah. And then one of the reporters asked, do you think this was handled correctly? And the prosecutor gave him a dirty look,

and the documentary cut to another scene. Oh my gosh. What are your thoughts so far on how this was handled? Gosh, I don't know. I mean, it wouldn't be handled this way today. No. But I don't know what way they should have handled it well i mean they probably should have never given them that car yeah i think giving them a getaway car was a bad move um i'm shocked at the media access. Yeah. Like, the fact that... I mean, it was live TV.

Yeah. And you watch this thing, and I'm telling you, it looks like he's going to blow this guy's head off 20 times. Yeah. In this rant. Yeah. And it's just unbelievable to me that this was just, like, on the news. And at some points, the camera guys would stop recording because they were afraid they were about to film a lot you know yeah um and yeah i don't know that it was the best to promise this guy immunity from prosecution no but at the same time i mean do you just say whatever the fuck to get him out of there?

What do you do, Brandi? Because this is a real situation. So then the Marion County prosecutor was interviewed and the reporters were like, OK, this immunity thing. That wasn't a real thing, right? Like that can't hold up in court. Right. thing right like that can't hold up in court right and he was like well uh we promised immunity and i'm gonna have a statement on this at a later time and i'd like to be able to collect my thoughts and be able to discuss it rationally and i'm very tired at the present time and i'd rather not discuss it. Holy shit. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. They were a mess. They were a total mess. And the reporters were like, is there any precedent for this kind of agreement? And, you know, you say you're going to discuss this. Okay, when are you going to discuss it? And he was like, I'll get back to you.

Bye. But there was a news conference. Is this for real? They really granted him immunity? Wait for it. Oh, my gosh. Wait for it. Wait for it.

Get to it. I have to go to the bathroom. So there was a news conference and people were still worked up about this immunity deal. Reporters asked, okay, what's the deal? You guys gave him immunity, but now he's in jail. What's happening? And the deputy prosecutor was like, yeah,

we wrote that document up and we had no intention of honoring it. Which he said it kind of sheepishly, but I'm like, well, no shit. That's fine by me. Yeah. I mean, this guy with all his booby traps. Yeah, you say whatever to get out of the situation. Sure.

Surely that's not legally binding. I mean, it was on official stationery, so. binding i mean it was on official stationary so and a reporter was like so it was all a ruse to get him out of there the guy was like well yeah dude no regrets yeah and they charged tony with kidnapping armed robbery and extortion i know okay see here's the thing when i was watching the documentary it really does have you going, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Is this guy going to get immunity?

At this point, Dick Hall entered the room with his wife by his side. And everyone jumped up and gave him a standing ovation. And he sat down in front of a microphone and basically said, well, that was nuts. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. You've got to see some of this footage. I mean, he was just stone-faced

the whole time. Where did you say this documentary is available? MyAss at MyAss.com. It's on Amazon Prime. Which I don't support Jeff Bezos, but that's another more commentary for another day what if it was just we just had an episode of people i don't support right

so at this point the guy who'd been tony's a tony's defense attorney was john ruckelhaus and john was like look tony because of my involvement in this three-day nut fest that you put us through i'm gonna have to be a state's witness three-day nut fest oh my god you're right i'm sorry i didn't even think about that it sounds like a disgusting orgy oh no oh no hey boys come on for the three-day nutfest. What's wrong with you? Bring a tarp. Oh, God. Sorry, that's not what I... I have

that written down. That wasn't off the top of my head. I wrote it down. Did not occur to me that that was disgusting. Sorry. Anyway. So he's like, I'm going to be a state's witness. I can't be a state's witness and be your defense attorney. Yeah. So I'm going to hook you up with a new defense attorney named owen mullen so owen became tony's new attorney and owen was like okay you know here's what we need to do blah blah blah and

tony was like no here's what you need to do and no one was like that's not how this works no that's not how any of this works and tony was like well i'm used to wiring a shotgun to someone's head and getting my way and no one was like yeah well you don't have that anymore and i hate you and i quit goodbye i'm going to this three-day nut fest down the road that's like a crazy day so then a guy named nile stanton became tony's attorney and nile was like okay an insanity defense is our only play absolutely but that pissed tony off big time because he's like i'm not fucking insane i'm the smartest most well-rounded guy i know yeah no offense to my friends yeah offense to anybody in here i'm the best person ever yeah a lesser man couldn't understand this a lesser man would have had a stroke and or a heart attack.

Which, who says and or? So he's like, well, exactly what you said. I'm not insane. And Dick Hall deserved it. And that's the argument we need to bring to the jury. He deserved it. Yeah. Okay.

And Niall was like, oh, wow, cool. Where'd you get your law degree from? Yeah, it's not a real legal defense. Yeah, it's the University of Dubai. He's like, no, that's not a legal defense. Here's a fun fact, Brandy. I'm ready for it. In Indiana at that time, when a defendant claimed the insanity defense,

it was up to the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was sane. Uh-huh. Which is, oh my God. Yeah. That's a very high bar. Yeah. To prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this person was sane. Yeah.

Who did this insane thing? So the trial got underway. And of course, the prosecution had a psychiatrist who said that Tony was not insane at the time he held Dick hostage. And the defense had a psychiatrist who said that Tony was insane at the time that he held Dick Hall hostage. And both sides did a pretty good job. But, you know, it's the way these things always are. It's the battle of the experts. The prosecution also called Tony's sister Effie.

And Effie testified that eight years earlier, he'd broken into her house with a gun and held her hostage for two and a half days. And he demanded money, which, of course, he felt he was owed for some work he'd done at the family trailer park. And guess how this whole thing ended? How? Tony's brother, Tommy, testified and said that during the hostage situation, Tony gave them a bunch of demands. He wanted 55 grand. He wanted to face no jail time for what he was doing.

He wanted them to assure him that he wouldn't have to go see a psychiatrist after all this and they complied holy shit and they did that because they were acting on the advice of police wow apparently back when tony held his sister hostage his brother tommy went to the police and told them what was going on. He told detective Sergeant Frank Love, who was a family friend and Frank was like, you know, if you've got the 55 grand, just go ahead and pay him just to get him out of Effie's house.

Frank Love was asked about this in court and he said that. Yeah. Yeah. What? Okay. What would Frank Love have asked about this in court, and he said that... Yeah, yeah, what... Okay, what would Frank Love have to say? He said that his suggestion, quote, seemed like the easiest way to solve the problem. Okay. I didn't write this part down, but he basically was like,

you know, this was the most low-key way to handle it. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, it also teaches the person a pretty powerful lesson. Yeah. Do it again again get what you want exactly are you kidding me holy hold someone hostage for two and a half days and you get 55 grand and no punishment not a fucking mystery why he did it again right holy shit and here's the funny thing so

this part is all newspapers.com stuff that i got but the documentary you know tony kept talking about being friends with the police and friends with the police and there's there was honestly a part of me that was like okay it's clear that they do have a relationship with him but how much of it is like they just know him and he's calling it a friendship yeah well so then i found i found something written up on the documentary website from this frank love guy and frank was like you know oh i think tony got a bad rap he was a really good guy blah blah and i was like what the fuck really so then i went newspapers.com, and lo and behold, fucking Frank Love is the guy who during this hostage situation was like, oh, just pay him the money.

Yeah. And now to this day, he's like, oh, he was just a good guy. Just a good guy. Fucking idiot. Yeah. While he was on the stand, Frank was also asked about an incident where Tony shot at two of his brothers and faced no consequences. And Frank was like, yep, affirmative. But that case got dismissed.

So Tony had faced zero consequences for what he'd done. This is some fucking white guy justice. Let me tell you. The prosecution played a tape from when tony was holding dick hall hostage and in that tape tony was talking to one of his brothers and he reiterated that he wanted money and immunity from prosecution and he didn't want to be psychoanalyzed and then he said i want every fucking thing when i get out of here like i did the last time i went to one of these. You remember that one, brother?

Wow. Yeah. Huh. For what it's worth, Tony's sister and two of his brothers all testified, I think pretty lovingly. Yeah. About their brother. It was clear they were very concerned about him, very concerned about his mental health.

And two of his brothers both said that they thought Tony was out of his mind when he took Dick Hall hostage. Then Tony took the stand in his own defense. And it was nonsense. He said that what he'd done to Dick Hall was terrible and that he didn't want to do it and had tried not to do it. Oh, okay. Right.

Cool. Cool, cool. Cool, cool, cool. Tight, tight, tight. And he revealed some stuff about his childhood. His parents were very hardworking immigrants, and they'd expected the kids to be hard-working too tony had to push an ice cream cart for 12 hours a day when he was

nine years old and that stuff with his sister well you know she wasn't being totally real that's not how it happened see they were pushing him out of the family and being real dick holes you know he didn't say dick holes but you get the idea. And he talked in a meandering way about what Meridian Mortgage had done to him. Again, it drove me crazy trying to make some sense out of this, but I think there's just no sense. Yeah. In closing arguments, the prosecution reminded the jury

about all the work that Tony had put into his plan. He'd rigged up that shotgun. He'd engineered a plan where he would get off scot-free. The prosecutor said, Any person who takes such phenomenal care to protect himself from the consequences of his act shows clearly that he knows what he was doing. Yeah. He also said that Tony was pretending to be insane. Several psychiatrists who examined him after the abduction

had said that he didn't exhibit any of the symptoms that he suddenly exhibited in August when his defense attorneys decided to use the insanity defense. But in his closing argument,ony's defense attorney was like uh if tony karitsis made up this defense he started when he was a kid you heard about what his family was like at several points during his closing argument nile broke down in tears he He said, I know. What? I hate that so much. I know. He said, we admit that he did what he did.

But Tony is not a vicious man. He said, Tony Karitsis knew in his own mind that the Halls were out to get him, to get his land. The jury went into deliberation. And they had a really tough time. Really? Yeah. You're surprised by that. I am.

Why? I just think he's so clearly guilty. But is he sane or insane? Well, he seems like kind of a crazy guy. But I don't think he's insane. He knew the consequences, obviously, because he asked for there to be no consequences. Yeah. Yeah.

That's what I keep coming. And it makes me uncomfortable because it's like, what do I know about mental health, really? But I do think, my God, he knew the consequences. I 100% think that there are probably some mental illness issues here. Oh, yeah. But he knew what he was doing. He knew what the consequences were of that because he asked for them to be removed. Yeah.

Yeah. And he'd done this before and it had worked out great. Yeah. And man, he put a lot of thought into it. I mean, he didn't put too much thought into where he parked his car obviously but you know the police helped him out which was nice so they came out of deliberation and told the judge we don't think we can reach a decision and he was like go back in there you little rascals i bet you can

i bet you can. I bet you can, you little rascals. So they deliberated some more and finally came out with a unanimous decision. They found Tony Kiritsis not guilty by reason of insanity. Holy fucking shit. Yeah. Looking back, one of the jurors said, I don't think any of us were happy. Yeah. Looking back, one of the jurors said, I don't think any of us were happy. Yeah.

People were outraged by the verdict. And as a result of it, the law was changed so that when a defense uses the insanity defense, they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their client was insane. It's no longer the burden of the prosecution. It's funny because I feel so strongly he should have been found guilty. But I understand if I wouldn't be able to say beyond a reasonable doubt. No. I know I would have made the same call the jury did if those were the instructions gosh actually i'm kind of a rule breaker so maybe i wouldn't but in the immediate aftermath of this verdict the prosecution kind of scrambled and said okay

if he's insane then he can't just go free. He needs to be held in a facility. We need to do more tests. And Tony was like, no, I'm not doing any more tests. And they were like, cool, go home to your third floor apartment? So for not doing those tests, Tony was held in contempt of court in mental health facilities for 10 years holy shit um he was released in 1988 once a state judge deemed that he was no longer dangerous and tony died in 2005 he was 72 years old wow dick hall stayed really quiet about this whole thing for a very long time.

And he had a really rough time afterward. I bet. I do want to say this kind of reminded me of the Barbara Mackel case or Mackey. Yeah. So I did that for Patreon. So this is a plug. It's a subtle plug. You don't even know what's happening.

You don't even know you're in an ad right now. We don't even know what's happening. You don't even know you're in an ad right now. We don't even have the music going. No. I wonder about these 1970s juries and like if the victim doesn't have a mark on them. No physical injuries. Then it's like, oh, they're probably fine. They got off totally fine. Yeah.

PTSD wasn't a thing. Oh, my God. Yeah. I'm sure this had no mental scarring on him. Yeah. To be dragged around by this guy who's like, oh, my God. I bet you anytime somebody says their jockeys are in a bunch, Dick Hall jumps, right? Goodness gracious.

Sorry, that was rude. I don't think people are saying that real often either. Well, but when it does, you know he freaks out. So Dick Hall's dad died in 1979 and Meridian Mortgage fell apart after that.

And after that, his wife divorced him. Oh, gosh. But then in 2017, he published a memoir about everything that had happened to him. Wow.

I know. Like, nothing, nothing, nothing. And then, boom. Wow. And that's the story of Tony Kiritsis, a bad, mean motherfucker. Oh, my gosh. That was nuts. But was it insane?

No, I don't think so. I don't? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so either. Yeah. I mean, scary as hell. Oh, yeah. Not logic. Well, kind of logical, actually.

Yeah. But yeah, and I do think that there's probably mental illness at play there. Oh, sure. No. Oh, I. But insanity, no. Oh, I'll tell you another thing. In this documentary, they, so one of his brothers, I guess he still had a decent relationship with. This brother. I don't get this guy at all.

this guy at all because he was really pissed that after his brother was found not guilty by reason of insanity that he wasn't just let go okay and he was like well you know in the documentary he's like well you know i don't really understand because you know the prosecution this whole time is like oh he's he's insane he's insane he's insane no, he's sane, he's sane, he's sane. But then all of a sudden the verdict comes in, and then they're arguing, oh, we need to do more tests, so doesn't that say something about them? It's like, yeah, it says that. Oh, God.

It says that your brother's scary as hell, and they're accepting the jury's verdict, and now they're playing that hand. Yeah. Doesn't say anything about the prosecution, my dude. No. I just,

I don't understand. I cannot imagine having a sibling who did all this, including to a family member, and still being on their side. Yeah,

I don't get it. Oh my. Well, you're going to have to figure out because Casey is holding someone hostage would you like to uh take some questions from our discord why yes i would but what is discord

what the hell are you talking about oh it's um it's one of the perks one of the many perks of being our patron on patreon on patreon it's patreon.com slash lgtc podcast all right devin quinn asks how do y'all feel about pumpkin spice are you feeling the false spirit or not about that life okay i'd love pumpkin spice i want pumpkin spice everything i just saw that starbucks has a pumpkin spice cold brew this year listen if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time you know we're a couple basic bitches exactly so yeah we're into pumpkin spice exactly right it is a little early for me though because it's boiling it's boiling hot it's sept. Bring on the spooky. That's October, ma'am.

First Outlaws wants to know, what would it take to get Sheree Ray on? A shotgun rigged up to her. Exactly. It's never happening. Sheree Ray could not be less interested in being on the show. It's not really less interested. It's more like adamantly opposed. Yeah, it's not her thing. One day, when the world gets back to normal, here's my prediction. We will do live shows, and my mom will happily run a merch table.

She would, you know, if it's a folding chair situation, she's going to be folding that. You know, she's going to set out the chairs. She will do the work. But no, you're not catching Sheree Ray on a stage or on a microphone near you. It's just not going to happen. Not going to happen. Oh, this question is to me, but I think you're more equipped to answer it. Bresh wants to know any advice for curly hair girls.

Okay, I just told you this today. Yeah. I have gone on a YouTube, like like deep dive watching all the curly girl yeah stuff so i have naturally curly hair i fight it sometimes and lately every now and then i'm like maybe i should try to make it work and then i get frustrated and then i straighten it again but i'm thinking maybe i'm gonna try to make it work yeah um but some of the methods people there's some crazy shit out there okay have you heard this no poo yes which first of all why would you call it no poo yeah um people they mean no shampoo which yeah why are we why are we dropping out the sham i mean that's no shampoo is wrong right

yeah i don't tell me that's nuts. That's coconut. I think it's coconut. Yeah. So there's some wild methods out there. I don't know. I all I can tell you is I find the ladies with the best looking hair on YouTube. And oh, my gosh, I've gone down a deep dive.

There's one lady. Now, she has hair like a fucking Disney princess. So who am I to question her? But she's been on, like, this hair journey ever since DevaCurl, like, ruined her. Yeah. She said that for the past six months, she has spent between one hour and four hours a day on her hair. What? Whether researching or just work.

Can you imagine? I mean mean we're both vain but like come on there's a limit that's too much it's too much too much oh i want to know this one okay okay heidi fleiss's prison lover says brandy brandy if you were all powerful what is the one haircut you would ban forever and if you could just give one type of haircut forever what would it be oh yeah ban one haircut probably the karen yeah yeah but there's a way like you can okay so the karen is like the very angled symmetrical a-line bob they can't see your hands very stacked in the back you know angled forward you can adapt that though to make it a cute like edgy haircut uh-huh um like by texturizing it and bringing the angle down a bit or whatever disconnecting it some so there's ways to make that work but just in general yeah karen

um it is actually kind of a fun haircut to do though because it's like very intricate uh-huh and you have to like cut it perfectly for it to lay right uh-huh so it's kind of a challenge which i enjoy it's a bit a challenge, which I enjoy. It's a bit of a puzzle, which I also enjoy. Are you talking yourself out of your answer? I am. I am. I don't typically love it on people.

But to do it is fun. I do enjoy doing it. You stand back, you're like, I did a great job, and she looks like shit. She wants to speak to the manager. One haircut. I think to speak to the manager. One haircut. I think that's also the answer. That's the haircut I don't always like to give because it's such a challenge. This makes no sense.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I also like to give a really good fade. So I could I could say that. I like a really intricate fade where they fade it real low at the bottom and then, you keep some length at the top i do enjoy that brandy what have you given any thought to my business idea i'm not interested brandy i feel like you haven't given it more thought you guys here's what i want i don't ask for much so she just gave norman a haircut in my house. And I love it. I love watching haircuts. Yeah.

I will YouTube this shit. Yeah. Yeah. Don't give me that look. It's so soothing. And you just hear the click, click, click, click, click. Yeah, I'm so not interested in your idea. And the spray, shh.

All I want is just a video on you at all times. That sounds terrible. You make so much money. No. How? Twitch stream. Of me cutting hair? Yeah, people would donate.

People would watch. Oh, it sounds terrible. Lauren D asks, do you remember your dreams in the morning? I dream all the time and I remember them like every morning

I wake up from a dream. About me? No. But then I forget them quickly. Like, I remember them immediately. Like, this morning I was having a very detailed dream, but all I remember now is that London was getting sunburned in my dream. Oh, that's a sad dream. I was very stressed about it.

Uh-huh. Sounds like you're a bad mom. Aww. Just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding! Do you remember your dreams? I mean, yeah, for like a second. Yeah.

That same way. Yeah. Do you ever write them down? No, because dreams are so stupid. What do you think? That's a controversial opinion? Well, you know, there are... Like, censor yourself. There are people who are, like, really into dreams. Okay.

I feel the same way my mom does about dreams. Uh-huh. That, like, listening to people's stories about their dreams is, like, the fucking worst. Yeah. I remember one time, there was this episode of This American Life... Uh-huh. ...where they had this lady who had like this list of like seven things you could not bring up

in a conversation. Yeah. Because she just found it so tedious and boring. And I like, she sounds obnoxious, but you listen to the episode and she's not.

So she had these rules like, I don't want to hear about your diet. Yeah. And like this, oh, this diet, I'm on booze. Nope.

Not interested. Snooze fest. Not interested. I don't want to hear about your travel stories of like oh the plane was crowded and some guy shit his pants on the plane that's a great story so she would make an exception for me and yeah your dreams it's like oh wow something that didn't happen yeah and now i have to sit here and be like oh i don't know what it means that you were a werewolf and then you, you know, you got a sunburn.

Do you have any recurring dreams? I don't think so. Do you? I have. Yeah, I have a couple. What are they? Well, ones that I'm trying to dial a phone number and no matter what I do, I can't dial it. Really?

It means something. I've looked it up before. I don't fucking know. What's it mean? I think it's an anxiety thing well i mean naturally and then uh i dream that my teeth are falling out what does that mean i don't same thing i think i think it's i think these are all anxiety yeah somebody's gonna somebody's gonna look these up for us um and then uh i dream about bears what do you dream that bears are like trying to get in my house.

And I'm like fighting them. Like I have a sliding glass door, which I don't have in my house. And they're like, I'm opening it and trying to like keep a bear from getting in. Well, here's my tip. Don't open it. Right. I think there's like something out there that I want to let in. But like, sure.

I can't also let the bears in. Yeah. I don't know. Damn bears. Damn bears. Oh, go ahead. Adjusted for inflation. Brandy, to ensure you are never sucked into a cult.

Have you ever thought about forming your own? What would it be? And what role would Kristen play in it? Norm, David, DP. What would our roles be? i don't know oh my god i i'm so not interested in being the leader of a cult no no that sounds terrible you would mix the kool-aid yeah yeah absolutely i'd serve up the kool-aid what would david's role be um he'd be the guy that convinces people to join because it's just a really good time.

I was just thinking he would be the recruiter. He would be. He would be the recruiter. We'd send him out to the quick trip. Yes. He'd be chatting up people. Yes. Okay, what would Norm do?

Oh, God, Norm would hate that. Yeah, Norm would be awful. Norm would have to be on the payroll. That would be the only. And he'd be our audiovisual guy. Yes. And he'd be in charge of putting together, you know. The presentations.

Sure. Sure. Sure. What would you do? You have to answer that. You have to give me my role. What do you think, knowing my various skills? You'd be our PR person.

Like when the press comes and they're like calling us a cult, you'd be like, these are the reasons we are not a cult. How dare you? We're a religion. Yes. My God. Yeah. And last time I checked, this was America. And I think DP would be the leader of the cult.

He would be. I'm sorry to say. DP would also be our financial advisor. Guys, you have to give us all of your money, and that's just the way it is. Okay, I think we've got a pretty good cult here. I think that's pretty good, yeah. Ford F1 Green Picky asks, Brandy, would you ever get a London-inspired tattoo? 100% already have my appointment scheduled to get it.

Oh, do you really? I do, October 3rd. What are you getting? I am getting like a play on the London skyline. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

Where's it going to be? Tramp stamp? Yeah, tramp stamp. I'm going back and forth on locations. I think I'm going to go with tramp stamp maybe right across my forehead. Great. No, for real. Where?

I'm doing like a shoulder cap type of thing yeah nice cap sleeve nice cap sleeve you know i hate cap sleeves they've never looked good on they're flattering on so few people i mean i feel like you gotta have a real thin arm yeah like a rail yeah and at that point you might as well just go sleeveless and not too broad of shoulders because otherwise it just looks like a shoulder pad type of situation. You're right. Yeah. Hmm.

Mm-hmm. All right. Yeah. The follow-up question there is also, Kristen, if you had to get a tattoo, what would you get? Pass. Yeah. She's not the least bit interested in getting a tattoo. Absolutely not.

She can't even entertain the idea of what it might be even though she promised to get a lgbc tattoo what did i promise you what did i promise you and how quickly did i take it back you took it back immediately i started to get worried yeah so the promise was once we what was it we had some milestone. It was some crazy, crazy milestone goal. A ridiculous milestone. A ridiculous goal. Which we would never,

I mean, we're never going to hit it. Yeah. But like, after a certain point, I was like, oh my God, what if I actually have to get a tattoo?

That would be horrible. I would hate to have a tattoo. And so, you know, I had to do take backs. I don't even, I mean, surgery scars. Like, I don't like any mark on my backs. I don't even, I mean, surgery scars. Like, I don't like any mark on my body.

I'm still freaked out by these fucking things. Your body's a temple. That's right. It's a Bentley, as they say. It's a Bentley. Would you put a bumper sticker on a Bentley? I don't fucking think so. Made Entry 2020 wants to know,

what's the most Midwestern thing you've ever done i think the spring break trip we took to branson was pretty midwestern very midwestern i think we do a lot of midwestern things do um look in our fridges there's no mistaking yeah i've got two kinds of ranch i was gonna say no shortage of ranch dressing you'll always find ranch dressing you'll always find barbecue sauce and if a restaurant charges me for refills i am like what the fuck yes where am i yeah yeah very midwestern simmer renee one ar beautiful asks what's your favorite thing london does she's actually started Simma Renee 1AR Beautiful. Asks what's your favorite thing London does?

She's actually started doing this really cute thing where she makes this clicking noise. It's like a noise. And if you do it to her, she'll do it back. That's so cute. Oh my God, this baby. Emily H asks, Kristen, will you self-publish if your book doesn't get picked up by a publisher? You should!

So I'm working on my second book right now. It's looking like the first one's not going to get picked up. But I figure, you know, I've got an agent. So I'm going to try to get the second one published. If that doesn't happen I'll cry a thousand tears and regroup. Probably write a third one and be like maybe this one will happen and then you know I'll have 15 books and then I'll self-publish all 15 at the same time. Very good. Entire catalog. Yeah. You've got a built-in reader base. I do. I mean like I feel like some people

here would would read the book which would be Absolutely. People ask about it all the time. But it's my pride. Yeah, I get it. My dream was never to be a self-published author. My dream was to, like, charm the gatekeepers. Yeah. You know? Yep.

Not to be shut down by them and then be like, fine. In the nicest way possible. Yeah. We really like your book. We just don't don't love the book for us i'm sure someone else will love it bad bad real bad wants to know do y'all listen to the podcast the day it comes out we have to listen to this thing so many times during the edit process? No. No. No. No. First, we say the words out of our very own mouths. Then we listen to an edit. So I listen to one edit.

Then I give feedback. Then Brandy listens to an edit. And it's all like bing, bang, boom really fast. Yes. So no. So no. No. No.

As if I want to hear us again. No. It's funny. So the day it comes out is the day we record. No. As if I want to hear us again. No. It's funny. So the day it comes out is the day we record. Yeah. So then we're back at it again. That's right. Listening to our asses again.

Snap back to the lab again. What? Alicia N.C. wants to know, what do you think about Carole Baskin being on Dancing with the Stars? I confess I had no idea, but I love it. it i'm so excited do you watch dancing with the stars no but i you're gonna watch it now for carol baskin well probably not but i just you know i'll watch a clip on youtube yeah yeah i'm not gonna like sit down and tune in but i've never i've never watched a single episode of dancing with the stars but i might i might like to give that a google see see what crazy cats and kittens i feel like well

do you think she's a good dancer no i doubt it what makes you say that uh she didn't seem real rhythmic when i don't know. Just in general she doesn't really seem like she's got like a good like you know rhythm to her. Okay. I mean maybe she shoveled

her husband's body into the top of his mouth and I don't know she was real into that real shitty music video she made. Oh. See you watched

Tiger King twice. I watched it once. Yeah. So she had that lady make that weird music video at her sanctuary. Right. And she was just sitting there on that couch, just loving it. And it was terrible. So I'm guessing her taste in music, i.e. rhythm and things that sound good, might not be that good.

Okay. Fair enough. That's my guess. Okay. I'm also guessing she's going to have some pretty elaborate animal print costumes. It would be a crying shame

if she didn't. An absolute crying shame. Hey, should we do some Supreme Court inductions? I think we should do some Supreme Court inductions. You guys know how to get in here. At the $7 level, you sign up, you get all kinds of benefits,

including being inducted on this very podcast. And this week we are sticking with your names and favorite books. Yeah. What are you going to do? Some names this time? Kristen, I've done names forever. Oh, I guess I have no choice but to do names because you're a big baby. Christelle Lopez Berryman.

Intensity by Dean Kuntz. Casey House. The Harry Potter series. Micah. Zami, A New Spelling of My Name by Audre Lorde. Kim Palmer. To Kill a Mockingbird. Joanna Coyne.

Jurassic Park. Sarah Garsky. Tuesdays with Maury. Jennifer Bennett, The Princess Bride, Rach Powell, Baby Island, Sloane Smith, anything from Sarah J. Maas, Molly Mason, The Beautiful and Damned by F. Scott Fitzgerald, Sarah Clower, The Great Gatsby. Sandy McKinney. Good in Bed by Jennifer Weiner. Bridget Martinez. Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. Welcome to

the Supreme Court! Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating, leave us a review,

and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the documentary Dead Man's Line and newspapers.com. I got my info from an interview with Amanda for BBC outlook, mamma mia.com, the guardian, the Bexhill on the sea observer,

the sun and the daily mail. Mama Mia for a full list of our sources. Visit LGTC podcast. Any errors are of course ours. Please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.