Let's Go To Court! - 144: The Queen of Mean & Sunny von Bulow

Episode Date: October 14, 2020

 Leona Helmsley referred to herself as the queen of the palace, but her terrible personality earned her a more apt nickname -- the queen of mean. She and her husband were rich beyond most peoples’ imaginations. They stayed that way in part thanks to savvy real estate investing, and to tactics that were illegal at worst and immoral at best. But when Leona finally stiffed the wrong contractor, her luck began to crumble. Then Kristin tells us about heiress Sunny von Bulow, who had the bad fortune of marrying the wrong man. When she married Claus von Bulow, Sunny was smitten. But the pair were a bad match. Sunny came to their marriage with a tremendous fortune. Sunny’s money was a sore spot for Claus, and Claus’s infidelity was a sore spot for Sunny. By the late 70s, the pair seemed headed for divorce. Then Sunny slipped into a sudden coma. She recovered, only to slip into another one for good. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Claus Von Bulow Case” by Mark Gribben for the Crime Library “Sunny von Bulow” entry on Wikipedia In this episode, DP pulled from: NY Times article by Edin Nemi “Leona Helmsley, Hotel Queen, Dies at 87” Time Magazine “Top 10 Tax Dodgers” The New Yorker article by Michael Schulman “Her Majesty” The Leona Helmsley Movie “The Queen of Mean” “Leona Helmsley” on Wikipedia

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. 100% owner of this podcast. Oh my God, two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Daryl Pitts. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Sonny Von Below.

And I'll be talking about a real estate mogul who has been named to two different magazines' top 10 lists, and not in a good way. That was the least snappy intro I've ever heard. I'm not going for snappy. I'm going for informative. Dad, welcome to the podcast. Great to be on again. Third time, I believe, on the podcast. I'm excited to for snappy. I'm going for informative. Dad, welcome to the podcast. Great to be on again. Third time, I believe, on the podcast. I'm excited to be here, Kristen. Oh, so you're happy Brandy has COVID. Well, let me ask.

How's Brandy doing? Why not just say no? Okay, so serious time. Brandy is doing much better. Wait a minute. This Brandy, she used to be on the podcast? Yeah, she's not anymore. Oh, okay.

Because you're taking over. Well, yeah. You know, in fact, this 100% deal. Uh-huh. You know what? Norman was 50. I was 50. Uh-huh.

I brought half of Minsky's pizza and some leftover Taco Bell and bought 50% of the podcast. That would not surprise me at all. No, back to Brandy. Back to Brandy. How is she doing? Oh, that's so good of you. Because I was really excited to have you on as 100% owner because I've been so impressed with your professionalism this week. In what way? Well, we record every Wednesday.

Yeah. I said, Dad, do you want to be on Wednesday's episode? He said, absolutely. Talked to you Tuesday night. What happened? Well, I hadn't prepared anything. You were like, oh, and when are we recording? Oh, oh, hmm.

That retired life. You know, I'm not only retired, I'm lazy. I was lazy when I worked. So now that I don't have anything that I have to do, no deadlines, giving me any kind of a deadline is really a problem for me. So it was my mistake. It was your mistake. Not that it stresses me. It's just I don't do anything.

Well, how could you be stressed if you totally ignore the deadline? That's right. That's right. So I do apologize for that, Kristen. Okay, so we're recording a day late so I could prepare something yesterday. Guys, prepare for a great episode. Oh, no, it kicks butt. It kicks butt.

Oh, confidence. It's going to be a good episode. But, well, I took like eight hours yesterday. I ran through it a couple times today. So I spent some time on this thing. I didn't just throw this thing together. Right. Well, I'm excited.

I, for one, am excited. And Brandy. So the deal with Brandy is she's doing much better than she was. But I am going to say, just because our president has tweeted that COVID is nothing to be afraid of, this is the sickest that Brandy has ever been in her life. And, you know, she's been sick before. So her message that she shared on Twitter and that I just want to share for everyone on the podcast is COVID is absolutely something you should be afraid of. And we should be wearing masks and taking precautions. And chances are, dear listener, if you get COVID, you won't be helicoptered out to the best medical

care in the country. So take care of yourself. You know, with Trump, he's so, so big, so strong, so masculine. Oh, God. Such a total stud that I'm surprised that COVID reached out and grabbed him. Now, I don't know how it grabbed him. Stop it. But I think it reached out and grabbed him in some way and got him. But the good news is— It didn't even ask.

It just went for it. It didn't ask. And here's the deal. COVID-19, it's like a celebrity virus. Okay. Celebrity viruses, they don't ask. They don't have to. They just reach out and grab you.

I think this joke has run its course. And that's what happened with our dear leader. So, okay. Yeah. They don't have to. They just reach out and grab you. I think this joke has run its course. And that's what happened with our dear leader. So, okay. Yeah. Poor Donald. Glad Brandy's doing better. That's great news.

Before you get going to your case, I have to do something very embarrassing that I don't want to do at all. Okay. And I've been nervous about it all day. Oh. No, for real. No. Okay, go ahead. This is very embarrassing. Okay, dear father,

in last week's episode, I made, in Ruth Bader Ginsburg's case, I made some jokes. And for every time a man said something sexist to her, I joked that he had recently banged his micropenis. I thought that was pretty funny, although it came up a lot. Well, so here's why I'm bringing it up. I'm bringing it up because, first of all, I knew when I made those jokes that they were mean. And they're body shaming jokes. And I did it anyway because I thought it was funny, which is not okay. But someone reached out and mentioned something that I hadn't even considered,

which is that most people with micropenises are intersex. And so long story short, I feel terrible about it and I'm really sorry and I won't make those jokes again. And to anyone who's upset about it, you should know that my punishment is I had to apologize about micropenises in front of my dad. I hate this. And you know, you're using a more professional term now because you said micropene.

Dad, don't like re-offend. No, I was just making sure you were held accountable for what you actually said. Oh, well, thank you, Dad. Anyway, I'm glad you were here. You know what? You had asked if I wanted you to come on that episode, but I already had all those micropenis jokes in the script,

and I was like, well, I don't want to say those in front of my dad. That would be humiliating, and I think the only thing worse than that is having to apologize for them in front of my dad. Poor Kristen. Poor Kristen. Oh, God, yeah, I made it about me. I now have to apologize for that, too. I'm sorry, guys.

I'm learning. Shit. I just told you before we started recording that someone reached out to me and asked me to stop saying guys like, hey, guys, because it's not inclusive. And I said, OK, I will. I'll do my best. And I've already messed up in my apology for messing up on last week's episode. You know, I'm going to take part of the blame for that because I use guys as a intersex term. That's not the proper use of the word intersex. Well, a as a gender inclusive term.

Oh, listen. Yeah, I know. I need to learn the language, don't I? Inclusive term. Oh, listen. Yeah, I know. I need to learn the language, don't I? I use it as a gender inclusive term. And I know it's not technically. Yeah.

That's the way I use it. I probably you've probably heard me use it like 10,000 times. It's all your fault. Really? It is all my fault. Let's blame the old white guy, which is what I'm most comfortable with. The other thing, the other offensive thing I have done in the past is use the term kids. And I use it when people are about your age. And so at Hallmark, when people were being hired and coming in, I made the mistake of saying, we've got some new kids coming in.

And somebody said, whoa, whoa, kids. And you were in what role at Hallmark? I was a human resource manager. Yep. But I stopped doing that. Yeah. I stopped because that was easy to stop. But guys, I probably say guys too.

No, it's going to be really difficult. Apologize. I'll apologize because I might say it today. Yeah. Who knows? I tell you what. It's tough to be corrected when you're as defensive as I am. When we got that message today, I was like, oh, come on.

And so I Googled it because I was 100% sure that, you know, that wasn't an actual problem. No, it turns out I was the asshole. It was a total plot twist. So anyway, I do want to say, you know, in addition to my apologies, I want to say thank you to those two people who reached out because I was ignorant and I'm glad we were corrected. And by we, I mean me. This is how we improve is to get coaching and corrections. No, because the problem is our PC culture and everyone is so sensitive these days.

Oh, poor Kristen. I knew it was not your fault, Kristen. No, for real. Okay, and then we'll get into this. One of the reasons I wanted to apologize and I wanted to thank the people who reached out is because I hate with a fiery passion, especially when you see it a lot with certain comedians

who just, oh, people are so sensitive these days blah blah blah and what what's the reality is that they are sensitive because someone has said hey could you maybe please not say this and they get defensive which I totally understand being defensive because I tried to google to prove that someone was wrong today. But, yeah. I even heard Dave Chappelle do that. Somebody had called him out on something. I think that's so pathetic. Yeah. You show how weak you are when you get up on stage.

I love Dave Chappelle. Yeah. He's probably my favorite comedian. Yeah. But he got up there and kind of started whining about somebody calling him out for something. Yeah. And so I guess we're all guilty of it. And I think comedians and I'll

include you into that in that realm feel like you've got a little more leeway because it's comedy. And so I know Dave Chappelle feels like he's got more leeway because it's comedy. But you might feel the same way. And that may be why you you're more comfortable doing it. But then to be called out is uncomfortable. I don't know that if it – I don't know that it is that it's comedy necessarily. I think that like – I don't think I ever want to be called out because I feel like, well, I always have good intentions. But of course intentions are bullshit.

If you've said the wrong thing, you've said the wrong thing and you've offended somebody. Yeah, I don't know. Don't overthink it, Chris. You know, if you've, if you said the wrong thing, you've said the wrong thing and you've offended somebody. Yeah. I don't know. Don't overthink it, Chris. You apologized. Well, it's okay. And we'll cut it. We'll cut this if it goes too long, but I think it's kind of an interesting thing. Oh, okay. Okay. I remember what I was going to say earlier. I think people get defensive the most when someone has made a good point. Because to me, there's nothing worse than when someone says you're wrong and you can't argue that factually. We had someone, someone was rude on Twitter the other day. And there's a certain satisfaction to being able to tell somebody off when they're just being rude because you were wrong.

But anyway, here we go. Oh, you know what's not tacky at all? What's that? Doing a very long apology and then hawking your merch. You have got some outstanding merch, Chris. And you're not just saying that because you're my dad. No, no, no. And the problem with the merch is I tried to buy a T-shirt and you told me it was how much?

Okay, well, I told you you could have one for free. And then you started, you know, being sarcastic and blah-de-blah. And so then I said, okay, fine. Now you have to buy it and it's $20,000. And I refused to pay $20,000. I've got a limit of $10,000 for a T-shirt. Oh, yeah. And I'm not paying a nickel more until you get your prices down.

Now, how much are you charging online for that? Well, a special offer for our listeners. Okay. $25 per T-shirt. And why is mine so expensive? Cost of doing business. I'm sorry, you own 100% of the podcast. I do want to talk. So we've got stickers on the website, lgtcpodcast.com stickers and t shirts. I wanted to shout out a sticker we have.

That is, this is how creepy you people are. It's currently our second bestseller on the website. And it was designed by Felicity Schlosser. Hi, Felicity. Thank you so much. It's a sledgehammer that says there was blood everywhere. And honestly, when we had it made up, I was like, well, where would anyone even put this? This is kind of a creepy sticker. Well, people are finding places to put it. They love it.

It's... Wait a minute. It's not a sledgehammer. It's a meat cleaver. Oh, people are finding places to put it. They love it. It's... Wait a minute. It's not a sledgehammer. It's a meat cleaver. Oh, meat cleaver. I'm sorry. A meat cleaver. It's got the hole to hang on the wall for the meat cleaver.

It's kind of disgusting. But if you're into that, please head over to lgtcpodcast.com. Get yourself some merch today. Support the show. And don't forget that patrons at the $10 level get 10% off in the store in addition to a monthly bonus episode, a monthly bonus video, a card, a sticker inducted on the podcast, and they get ad free episodes a day early. And that's my spiel. That's a good spiel. You ready to start? Yeah, you insisted on going first like some kind of diva. I am a diva. I'm going first. Okay. Kristen. Yes. We're going

to talk about Leona Helmsley. Okay. Are you familiar? Well, only because you started to tell me about her the other day on the phone and then I was like, save it for the podcast. Save it for the podcast. Leona Helmsley was a real estate tycoon and a tycoon. Oh, cool. The coon part is a little iffy, but definitely a real estate tycoon. And her nickname that she gave herself was Queen of the Palace. And it's because one of their hotels was the Palace Hotel in New York. And it's because one of their hotels was the Palace Hotel in New York. However, she earned the nickname from the media and other folks as the Queen of Mean.

In fact, there was a movie made called Queen of Mean about Leona Helmsley. Oh. Okay? You know, it never works out when you try to give yourself a nickname. Somebody's always going to kind of twist that on you and make it look bad, aren't they? Yeah. Okay, Leona was born in 1920, and her name at that time was Lena Mindy Rosenthal. The family moved a bunch of times around in New York City. They were what I'd call middle-class folks doing okay.

And Leona had a problem, though, with one of her older sisters. She was one of three sisters, the youngest. She had a problem with her, I think it was her oldest sister, who mom kind of favored a lot. Mom always told Leona how beautiful the older sister was and a source of frustration right up until the time that her mom died, which was decades later. So rough beginning for her. And it's kind of a mom complex. She always wanted to please her mom, always wanted to do better than the sister, always kind of dislike the sister. It was kind of a rough deal. Leona dropped out of high school. And it's unclear why she dropped out of high school. She obviously was a bright woman, was very, very successful later in life.

But she dropped out and changed her name. So she drops out when she's like 15, 16 years old, changes her name several times. But she does away with Rosenthal altogether. She is done with Rosenthal. She uses the last name Roberts at this point. Did she want to not sound Jewish? I guess, but that was never, it was never said, never clear. Okay. Or whether she, you know, again, trying to get back at her parents or something, I don't know. But anyway, so she's

15, 16 years old, but she's just doing these names. She goes with Lee Roberts, Mindy Roberts, which was her middle name, Lenny, L-E-N-I Roberts, and then finally Leona Roberts. So kind of grows up fast. And by 18, she marries her first husband. And first husband means we're going to have multiple husbands here. Leo Panzier. She had a 14-year marriage to Leo. They had one son, and his name was Jay. She cheated a lot, kind of a serial cheater.

She would go to clubs and pick up men, and that was just kind of her methodology. And it looks in retrospect like— I'm sorry. I don't think I've ever heard the word methodology applied to cheating. Well, what she was trying to accomplish was a higher level in life financially. Sure. And Leo was not bringing it. He was not as financially successful as she needed him to be.

So she finally found a guy through this cheating process who had some money. So she finally found a guy through this cheating process who had some money. I think she thought he had more money than he actually had because he worked in the family business. And so he had some of the trappings of a lot of money. But that was mostly his parents' money. Joseph Lubin was this guy's name. And so she ends up marrying Joseph two times. She married him, divorced him, married him, divorced him. Now, because that doesn't sound real good, Leona actually rewrites her history. And this is one of

the parts that gets written out. When Leona talks, she tells about her first husband and then her last husband. This is totally left out that she married and divorced, married and divorced, and cheated and all this kind of stuff. The other thing that she totally makes up that is not part of her past, but she tells everyone it is, is that she was on the Chesterfield billboards in New York City. Now, Chesterfield is a cigarette. And they back back then, you could advertise cigarettes everywhere. And she was the Chesterfield girl on the billboards, according to her. There is no record of this ever happening. However, she was an extremely heavy smoker. So that is why. That does check out. That does check out. That checks out well.

Okay, so Leona is going along, and she's married to this Joseph guy, you know, and divorced and married and divorced. But she starts getting into real estate. When she's in her late 30s, early 40s, she gets a job as a receptionist at a real estate company. Well, she sees that the way to make money in real estate is not to be a receptionist. She wants to be an agent. So she gets her license and she starts selling condos in New York City. And she starts working on processes with her boss to convert buildings into condos. So there are apartment buildings and she works through this process that sometimes is bordering on bullying and everything else to get people to move out of these buildings so they can get the votes they need to

turn the building into a condo. And so, yeah, she's doing some of that. But she's extremely successful. This is the 1960s. She is making over $100,000 a year. A woman in the 60s in New York City making over $100,000 a year. Adjusted for inflation? I do not. You didn't. I knew you didn't. I am so lazy. I did not adjust that for inflation.

I'm going to ballpark it half a million. Probably. Maybe more. Yeah. It's 70 years ago. All right. It's a lot. At the same time, so she was extremely successful. And, you know,

the new husband, Joe, he's got some cash, but she gets caught stealing salt and pepper shakers from a high end restaurant in New York City. And the way this plays out is she and Joe are out to dinner with another couple. And Leona pockets the sterling silver. This is high in place. Sure. She pockets the sterling silver pepper and salt shakers. In front of the other couple?

Well, it's unknown as to whether they saw it happen or not. But the maitre d' stops Joe on the way out and, you know, says, hey, let me talk to you. He says, we've had a problem with people stealing our salt and pepper shakers, and the salt and pepper shakers are gone off your table. Would you just like to pay for those, or what would you like to do? And he goes and talks to them. Oh, that's embarrassing. Well, this isn't in front of anybody. No, I know.

I'm saying even one-on-one, would you like to pay for them or move? Well, Joe should have paid for them because according to the movie I watched, The Queen of Mean. Is it a movie or a documentary? It's a movie. It's a movie. Suzanne Plachette is an actress back in the day, and she played Leona. So, yeah, it's not a documentary. Okay.

Day and she played Leona. So yeah, it's not a documentary. Okay. So yeah, you don't know exactly how this played out. But Joe says, let me go talk to Leona. Well, he goes to talk to Leona and the other couple and he says, hey, they said we stole the salt and pepper shakers. And the other couple's like, whatever. Yeah.

And they just walk off. And she's like, well, I didn't take them. I didn't take them. Of course not. And so he goes back and he just says, we'll pay for them. And when he comes back, Leona sees that he's paid for them. And she says, they didn't see me do it. We could have gotten away with it. Why'd you pay him? He didn't see me do it. So, again, wealthy people at the time, you know, having wealth, stole salt and pepper shakers that were, who knows? You know, they're. Well, they probably really needed those. Yeah, they needed them.

And they were really nice. Because the salt and pepper shakers at their house were kind of ugly. So they had no choice. OK, well, thank you, Kristen. Sure, sure. You're going to take this queen of mean title and twist it around, aren't you? She's not going to be the queen of mean. Okay, so let's fast forward a little bit more.

1968. She's riding high. Joe is gone. We've gotten rid of Joe for the second time. So we have no husband. But we are on the prowl. She's 48 years old, and she is looking for a new husband. And this is time for a big upgrade. We need somebody with some cash money. Okay. And she meets slash targets a guy named Harry Helmsley.

Now, as she tells it, she was just at this real estate party and Harry was like putting the moves on her, coming at her every which direction, wanting to dance, wanting – he was wanting all kinds of stuff. Everyone else, including people who were at the party there, said – no, Leona came in and said, which one's Harry Helmholtz? And several people said, he's over there. And she beelines for him and asks him to dance and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, Harry Helmsley, Chris, we've got an age issue here. She's 48. He's 59. Yeah, not a bad.

Not bad? No. You're okay. This is the first time that I've heard you be okay with an age gap. No, that's not true. I'm okay with ones where I feel like people are in roughly the same place in life. And 48 and 58, you're kind of in the same place in life, roughly. Okay.

And it sounds like they're on somewhat equal footing financially, or is he way richer than her? He owns the Empire State Building. He owns more real estate than anyone else in New York City as an individual. Now, there are corporations that own more real estate, but he owns more real estate in New York City than anybody. So financially, you know, she's making $100,000 a year plus. Which is great, but it's nothing compared to him. He's a billionaire, a multi-billionaire. No, so my thing on age gaps, if you're at roughly the same age experience level, I don't have a problem, and that can get wider as you get older. I will say sometimes people will reach out and they'll be like, but Kristen, my parents have this huge age gap, but they've been together for however many years.

And I always feel very awkward. You feel bad? No, I don't. Here's what you say. Here's what you say. Whichever one I'm younger, you say the other one must be really immature. No, no. Oh, you don't say that?

Here's what I truly want to say. But I don't because it would be too weird. But my thing is my issue with age gaps isn't that I don't think a marriage can last. It's not that I don't think a relationship can go a long time. So when people say, yeah, but so and so and so and so-and-so have been together for 20 years. Okay. You just want them to start on more equal footing. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. I get that. I get that. And most people do. Most people don't have a big age gap. They don't have a big income gap. They don't have a big wealth gap.

Most people start off on fairly equal footing. But when they don't, I think there are potential problems that come up if you're in some of those situations. Well, okay. I've looked at pictures of Harry Helmsley. And he's not a great looking guy. May I Google? Yeah. And Google Leona. Leona, you know, she's a good-looking woman. Now, you might get pictures of her when she's in her 80s or something, but Leona's a good-looking woman. She wasn't on the Chesterfield billboards, but she's a good-looking woman. Okay. Woo, she's had some work done.

Oh, yeah. But, yeah, and sure, sure, in her younger years, sure. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about Harry Helmsley. He's married. I'm looking over at Kristen and she's got her face pulled back tight. I can't find a single picture of her in her older years where she isn't caught in this wind tunnel. That's weird. Yeah. I think it's a rubber band. I think she's got a rubber band around her face pulled back real tight.

So yeah, there was some work done there. Okay, okay. So Harry, he's been married for 33 years. Oh no. To the same lovely, kind Quaker woman. You know, we love the Quakers. We do love the Quakers. Jay, my son-in-law, your brother-in-law, Quaker. We love the Quakers.

Jay is the representative for all Quakers and we really like him. Well, and have I ever told you that the reason I wanted Kyla to go to a Quaker, we love the Quakers. Jay is the representative for all Quakers, and we really like him. Well, and have I ever told you that the reason I wanted Kyla to go to a Quaker school was she would meet a Quaker boy and get married? You told that story at their wedding. And then you did a victory dance around the venue. Well, and here's the thing. So I was all excited about this. But then I read online after she had already applied and been accepted and pretty much decided she was going to go there that only 11 percent of the people there are Quakers. So I thought, well, this – My dream has been dashed.

This probably is not going to work out. And boom, she meets Jay her sophomore year. Jay is a freshman. She's a sophomore. And I said, OK, he's Quaker. Let's roll with this. And so I forced them to get married. Such a romantic story.

Now, so the wife is a Quaker, and we know the Quakers, how good they are. Here's what Leona says about the Quakers. There's got to be some bad Quakers out there. I'm going to go knock the queen of the Quakers off of her throne. Oh, Leona has has a way with words that I mean, she it's kind of quippy and everything. But, you know, it's always mean. So she's got a lot of these and I'm going to give you a few of these mean, quippy quotes. But that was one of them. She becomes his mistress for four years. So from 68 to 72. Wow, that's really putting in some time. Oh, she put in some time

and she worked it. She was working to get the queen of the Quakers out and take over as queen of the palace. So what happened was it wasn't working out. She wasn't, you know, wasn't convincing. He's in love with this lady. But what she does is she buys herself a boatload of flowers. She buys herself an engagement ring. And Harry comes over and he says, what's the deal with all these flowers you've got? And she, oh, I don't want to talk about it. Well, no, where are they from? And he goes and he grabs and he says, oh, she says, oh, I didn't mean for you to see that.

Oh, it's from Frank. And he's a big real estate guy down in Florida. He wants me to come. In fact, here's my ring that he sent me. He sent me all these flowers. He wants me to come and marry him and live with him. And I'm really thinking about it because what's this? I'm a mistress for four years. I'm better than that. I can't put up

with it. I love you, Harry. Undertones here are that I want your money, Harry, but I love you, Harry. I got to say, I'm kind of on her side in this. Why is that? Because I think this guy sounds like a douchebag. He's cheating on his wife for four years. Yeah, tell him what, do whatever. He's a douche. He deserves this. Well, did I mention his wife's a Quaker? What's that have to do?

I mean, I'm just saying these two, now that I know that he cheated for four years and all that, I'm kind of like these two awful people might deserve each other. Just deserve each other. Yeah. Okay, okay. So sure enough, it works. Harry divorces the wife. You know, it's a hard thing to do because I think he really does care for her. But as Leona says—

You're giving a lot of sympathy to this guy. She's making him old. She's making him look old because she looks old. And look at Leona, you know, 11 years younger with all the work done, all the tight-faced stuff done. So in 1972, he gets a divorce and they get married. Yeah, God. Okay, so again, this guy is not only a billionaire. He's a self-made billionaire.

So this guy has got some business savvy and may be pulling some fast ones here and there. But he and Leona are a match made in heaven, not only from a marriage standpoint, but from a business standpoint because Leona can work those condos. Yeah. those condos. Yeah. And so she goes into apartment buildings and either gets people scared about, hey, this is going condo and you're not going to be able to afford it. You better leave. So then she has these fake buyers buy these things. So they'll vote for the condo. Oh, good Lord. And so they have to have I think it's 35 percent is all they have to have. And so once she gets this building turned condo, boom, it's all condo. Harry buys it all, and she sells it all.

And it's, I mean, they're making money hand over fist. So when she meets Harry. Is this basically gentrification or no? It probably is. It probably is. I don't know. I don't know. I think they may be just moving out old people and bringing in young people.

But they were converting these apartment buildings into condos, and Harry had the money and the financial resources through banks to buy these things. And so their net worth shot up to around $6 billion over the next 15 years. So, yeah, they did. Over 15? Oh, my gosh. They did. They did well. Okay, so in the 70s and 80s, these two become the biggest tax cheats in U.S. history.

Have they heard about Donald Trump and his $750? You're going to be amazed at the parallels between Donald Trump and Leona Helmsley. Okay. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. So Time Magazine in the late 80s and Forbes Magazine named their top 10 tax cheats of all time. Oh. And Leona made both lists. And the only reason Harry didn't make it with her was because Harry was – he had had a series of strokes in his early 80s.

And so he was out of the business. He wasn't – he had no memory. So it was current tax cheaters only, huh? Well, yeah, and I think it was unsure how much tax cheating he had done before Leona came into the picture. Okay. Because the biggest thing that got him was they – well, let me talk a little bit about – let me just talk about Donald Trump a little bit. They had one financial run-in with him, and I couldn't exactly find out, but Trump sues everybody. So I'm sure they got into a clash over, you know, who who was going to buy a building or something.

But here's the parallels I saw between Donald Trump and Leona Helmsley. They both were huge, huge in New York City real estate. But they didn't really earn any of that themselves. city real estate. But they didn't really earn any of that themselves. Leona had it given to her by her husband, Harry, who became incapacitated. And so now that was all hers. And Donald inherited all of it from his dad. 400, was it 400 million, 400 and some million dollars he inherited from his dad and most of it in real estate. Plus, you know, he was paying Donald when he was still alive and all that kind of stuff. So both of them had kind of here's this real estate empire handed to them. Did Leona have a bunch of businesses that went bankrupt?

No. There's a difference there. There's a difference. She's actually a good business person. So we're going to have some likes and some not likes, dislikes. They both use their personality as a force of nature. So when Leona was in charge of this empire, she was the face of the empire in every way you can imagine. Billboards, television advertising, everything.

She was the queen of the palace. And she would say things like, I wouldn't put up with thin towels, neither should you. And everything was, everything, I wouldn't put up with X, Y, Z, neither should you. Everything I wouldn't put up with X, Y, Z, neither should you. And so she was all over print media, all over billboards, all over television as the face of the franchise, if you will. And that worked fairly well for her but also kind of made her a target. People are like, rich lady on there. She should be doing her own ads. you know, rich lady on there.

Yeah. Should she be doing her own ads? And she comes off as really, as not a real lovable, likable person in those ads. Sure. Both Leona and Donald Trump had some personal success. So Leona was successful as a real estate agent and was making great money. And the only personal success we know of

that Donald Trump has had is being on The Apprentice. The New York Times information. I would argue that becoming president of the United States now, not saying anything about the job he's done, but I would say getting to that office was a success. Leona didn't get there, did she? No. I'm just saying if we're, you know, in fairness. There was one other difference. Leona really is or was, when she was alive, a billionaire. No doubt about it. She had the money.

She's given away the money. She was a billionaire. I think there are huge questions as to whether Donald Trump is really a billionaire or not. Once he listens to this podcast, he will release all those tax returns. I think so. Well, we know enough about him now that I don't know that we need to see him now, do we? I hope not. Here's something else.

They're both mean, vindictive, and abusive to employees, contractors, and associates. Now, this isn't just my opinion. contractors, and associates. Now, this isn't just my opinion. There were a lot of court documents that indicate that Leona was all those things. And I think we're hearing from people who leave the White House that there's a lot of that also. So that force of personality, and I've got to have it my way, is kind of a rough thing for both Donald and for Leona. And both of them stiffed contractors. You know, there's a lot of evidence that Donald Trump stiffs contractors. Yeah. Leona did the same thing.

And that and that alone is what came back to bite her. You are not going to believe this. So she was stiffing New York City contractors. The biggest stiff of the contractors happened at their home in Greenwich, Connecticut. They bought an $11 million estate and they had an $8 million renovation done on it. But Leona, either out of trying to save money or trying to nitpick people to death, refused to pay a ton of the money. And so the contractors who know who they're supposed to be getting paid by, and it's not Leona Helmsley, it's one of the companies

that she works for. It's one of Harry's companies. Actually, I shouldn't say Harry's company. It's her company and Harry's company. So they say, hey, wait a minute here. This is tax fraud. This should be income that they take out of the company and pay taxes on. And then they pay us because we're working on their personal home. And so it's not only tax fraud from that perspective, but all this is being charged against the company, which is reducing the profits of that company to the tune of $8 million in this case. And this is the only, you know, this isn't the only time they did this. This was something that was done quite a bit. Yeah. So they send all these invoices with all

this information to the New York Post. And New York Post, a little bit of a tabloidy type. Yeah. So they're known for their ridiculous headlines, their eye-catching headlines. Right. Well, I don't know what the headline was on this, but they published the whole thing, the whole story. These people are tax cheats. And then everybody's like, oh, my gosh, here's this lady. She's on all the billboards. Right.

She's on TV and everything, and she's a tax cheat. This is 1988. TV and everything, and she's a tax cheat. This is 1988. Kristen, you are not going to believe who the U.S. attorney was in that New York district in 1988. Very popular guy now. He's on Fox News all the time. Oh, Giuliani.

Rudy Giuliani is the attorney. He goes after Leona because at this point, Harry is out. He is not able. By that, you mean dead? No, no. He's alive. I thought that was so rude. When I say poop, that means he's unable to function. Okay, mentally he's not there.

Is that what poop means? Okay, he indicted them on several charges, tax evasion, including extortion, because they tried to bully a little bit. I say they. And that's Leona. She's trying to bully. Because, you know, Harold is. OK. There's some good quotes because what Rudy Giuliani said was, let's go to court. You missed the cue totally. Well, I, you know, you usually have them look in the mirror and then say, let's go to court. Sorry about that.

I forgot to look in the mirror. Yeah. Here's some good quotes from the trial. Because they were trying to make her out as bad a person as possible in this trial. So they had a maid from their estate. And she said, we don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes. Ew.

Not a good quote. And this is in front of a jury. This is a jury trial. Yeah. And so when you are saying stuff like that. She didn't try to settle this thing? Well, I don't know. She's got enough money to fight.

Yeah, she's fighting it. But she didn't have the greatest lawyers in the world because they got nailed on this. I don't know. She's got enough money to fight. Yeah, she's fighting it. So there's that. But she didn't have the greatest lawyers in the world because they got nailed on this stuff. Well, I guess I shouldn't say settled. It would be a plea deal. But anyway, go ahead. Okay, so one of the accountants testified that she said, you're not my sexy timing business partner.

You'll sign whatever I tell you to sign. Now, he didn't really say sexy timing. He said. When you said sexy, I was like, what? You really scared me for a second. Well, you know, I don't use the F-bomb. And so I always substitute sexy timing. You say a number of weird, offensive things, but not the F-word. Not the F-bomb.

So that's just a couple of the quotes that came out. Now, her lawyer, in an attempt to kind of bring this thing back in, said at one point, she's not on trial for being a bitch. She's on trial for tax evasion. Please ignore all that. I think, you know, that would be, honestly, that would probably be my tactic. Oh, yeah. You'd be sitting there, You'd be objecting all the time that her personality and her meanness has nothing to do with whether or not she has evaded taxes. Now, I guess we don't pay taxes. Little people pay taxes. But honestly, what I'm saying is like in my opening statement to the jury, I would say my client is mean.

My client is this. My client is that. But none of that has to do with what we're here for, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is why I should have gone to all the semesters, Dad. All the semesters. Man, you would be defending Leona and probably she'd be off free on this. That's the dream. That's the dream. So I just pulled out a couple of quotes. And so there were a ton of witnesses who were up there saying she's mean, she's manipulative, she's vindictive. The family, employees, contractors, everybody. Nobody likes her. In fact, let's talk a little bit about family.

She's got the son, Jay, that I mentioned from the first marriage. She has four grandkids. Jay, he has a heart attack in his 30s. Yeah, he had a heart attack in his 30s, and he ends up dying when he was 42. But when he had the heart attack, she had not spoken to him for five years. So not a good situation there. him for five years. So not a good situation there. And it's, you know, if you've got a mean parent or grandparent or whatever it is, you just avoid them because you can't. And that's what Jay had done and what Leona didn't care. She was kind of off doing her thing. Well, she makes Harry hire

him to be in charge of the company that buys all of the furnishings for all of their hotels worldwide. And so everyone's like, Harry, you can't – this 30-something-year-old guy with no purchasing experience, you can't put him in charge of this company. And it's interesting. Donald Trump's dad had a company like this. So they – instead of having a purchasing department within the company, it's a separate company. So that's what – so Jay is running the purchasing entire company of the Helmsley Hotels. Now, the problem with that was Jay was just as dirty as his mom was as far as business goes.

So an accountant comes to Harry and says, okay, here's the scam he's got going. If we have a 1,000-room hotel that we build and he is responsible to buy all the furnishings, TVs, dressers, beds, mirrors, everything else for that hotel, he buys 1,500 rooms worth instead of 1,000 rooms worth. And he sells the 500 extra rooms worth of stuff to another hotel chain and pockets all the money because it's all business expenses. So he was stealing millions. He gets caught by this accountant.

millions. He gets caught by this accountant. Harry, you know, gets told, Mrs. Helmsley gets told, they chew him out really bad and tell him to never do this again. This is what rich people do. Don't do this again. And evidently he didn't because they didn't fire him. And he died of a heart attack a couple of years later. How do we know that he didn't do it again? We don't know. And she's estranged from the four grandkids. I mean, hasn't seen them, doesn't want to see them. They don't want to see her, so it's all good. That is so sad.

Yeah, yeah. Sad. August 30, 1989. Okay? Okay. Rudy Giuliani got a guilty verdict on three counts of tax evasion, three counts of filing a false tax return, 10 counts of mail fraud, and 16 for corporate tax fraud. 16 counts of corporate tax fraud. Dang, Rudy, okay. Rudy did okay.

See, Rudy was sharp back in the day. Rudy was on top of his game. I watched a Netflix documentary. I can't remember the name of it, where Rudy, you know, surprise, surprise, oopsies, turns out to kind of be the hero of that story. And, man, that was a tough pill to swallow. It turns out to kind of be the hero of that story. And, man, that was a tough pill to swallow.

Well, you know, he was mayor of New York for 9-11, 2001. And by all counts did a great job of kind of leading the city through that crisis. And so, yeah, just because you see the crazy man on Fox with his, you know, looks like a – what they always make him look like, a vampire. They have that one picture of him. Make him look like a vampire? They have that one picture of him. Make him look like a vampire. I mean. So anyway, so she gets, she's guilty on all these counts. How many years do you think Rudy was able to get on her for all those counts?

I mean, see, I know nothing about tax stuff. So 20? 16. Good guess. Got 16 years. tax stuff. So 20? 16. Good guess. Got 16 years. But she says to hell with these corporate attorneys here at the Helmsley Hotel. And you know who she hires? Who does she hire? Alan Dershowitz. How did you know that? Did I tell you that already? No, no, you didn't. Did you look that up? No. Okay. I stumbled across it in my research for my case this week, and I was like, oh, my gosh.

Alan Dershowitz. Well, so I'm thinking, okay, Alan Dershowitz, I mean, you know, lawyer to the douchebags, right? Yes, that's exactly. Okay, let me give you a list of people. And this isn't in any, you know, ascending or descending order. I've just got these names written down. Mike Tyson, rapist and bit a guy's ear off. So you got that going.

Patty Hearst. Okay, that might be the least problematic. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong with her. Julian Assange. Jim Baker. Yeah. You remember Jim Baker, Jim and Tammy Faye? Yeah.

And I have to mention here that I wanted to buy Tammy Faye's house. Tammy Faye had a house in Kansas City that the second husband built for her. And it needed a lot of, like, changing. But I wanted to buy it. Cherere nixed that deal. She's always raining on your parade. She is. And I'm telling you, I could have flipped that house and made a ton of money and lived in it and loved it and all those kind of things.

It was in a nice neighborhood, gated community, had like 1.2 acres on the way. Dad, why are you crying black mascara tears right now? Chere Re stopped me from buying that property. Well, it was hideous, right? No, it wasn't hideous. I wish I could have taken it to it. It needed some walls to come down. It needed some changes. It needed some flooring changes. But it was – Kristen, I have never seen a master bedroom closet. This thing was literally 20 feet by 30 feet. The closet in the master bedroom, Tammy Faye had some stuff.

Yeah. Shoes, dresses, mascara. Just the mascara wall was amazing. That sounds like my dream. Okay, so Jim Baker, you know, sex scandal, religious. Rape scandal. Oh, that's right. It got framed in the media as a sex scandal, but it was, he was accused of rape.

Yeah, yeah. Jessica Hahn, right? Jessica Hahn. Yeah, wow. You were. Oh, you know. I forget how old you are. Yeah, and you don't know how much I love a religious scandal.

I do know how much you love a religious scandal. O.J. I thought you were not going to mention O.J. Oh, I mean O.J. And then Donald Trump on the impeachment trial. Yep. Dershowitz was on the team. And the piece de resistance, Jeffrey Epstein.

Yep. Oh, my gosh. So Leona is like, this is peanuts for this guy. And the piece de resistance, Jeffrey Epstein. Yep. Oh, my gosh. So Leona is like, this is peanuts for this guy. You know, get her off, you know, get her sentence reduced. He takes that sentence from 16 years to 19 months. Whoa. So she spends 19 months in jail.

And then a few. What did he argue? You know. Dad, this is called let's go to court. You're just like Kyla. Kyla showed up last week with a very interesting story and absolutely no court stuff. What you got? I have no idea.

He worked the black magic. Okay. Think about that. None of these guys got what they deserved. Right. Okay. So getting Leona down. I mean, Leona spent time in jail. So he didn't really kick butt in this case like you might think. I would say going from 16 years to 19 months is kicking butt.

I wonder how Leona made it in prison. How do you think? Oh, of course, she was probably, that's probably one of those, you know. Yeah, she got the rich white lady prison. Okay. Okay. That's located in got the rich white lady prison. Okay, okay. That's located in Connecticut, I'm pretty sure. Okay, so from, you know, this happened in 1989. And through all the appeals, when she first got sentenced, the 16 years.

So it takes until 1994 until she gets out of prison because there's been you know all these appeals and everything else now brandy will love this they sent her to prison on what day of the year i don't know april 15th oh tax day brandy is gonna love that shout out to you right now brandy i know you love that what she she calls it, poetic justice or something. Yeah, that's a term that Brandy coined on this podcast. So she's out of jail in 1994. So we're a ways down. Harry is still alive, but he, again, is.

But so now her only, she's kind of reclusive now. Her only friends are Imelda Marcos. Who's that? Okay. Imelda Marcos and her husband, he was president of the Philippines, and the two of them stole between $5 and $10 billion from the Philippine people in the 80s. Oh. She was famous for like 4,000 pairs of shoes or something. Oh, yeah.

Okay, you're with me. Remember it now? Yeah. Yeah, she was not a good person. She went back to the Philippines and got elected mayor or something. So she went back after he died. Oh, my. But he was in exile and then died.

Manuel Noriega, the Panamanian dictator and strongman, another one of her buddies. Wow. So – and then this is one of the most amazing things that's ever happened to me. Last time I was on podcast, we talked about Conrad. Being on the podcast was one of the most amazing things. It was. I couldn't believe it. Being on the podcast is the most amazing thing.

But the linkage between two what seemingly are unrelated cases, except the Hiltons were into hotels also, I guess. One of her or two of her best friends were Kathy and Rick Hilton, parents of Paris and total douche canoe Conrad III. I remember thinking that Conrad just seemed like a nice, misunderstood boy from your story. Yeah, I probably painted him in a negative light, and I shouldn't have.

I just remember you trying to say sexy times again and again and stumbling because it's not very natural. Yeah, I'm going to have to start breaking out F-bombs. If I do another case that's got a lot of them in it there, I'm going to have to start saying it.

You're not going to be able to do it. I won't be able to. I'll have to switch cases. I'll have to switch cases. So she's not living her best life now. She really can't be on the board or in charge of any of these companies because she's a convicted felon. And convicted felons cannot be on the board or have an active role in a company that has a liquor license. And all their companies have liquor licenses because they're hotels.

But she's super rich. She's super rich. Just lay back and enjoy yourself. That's what she's doing. That's what she's doing. So she's literally got $6 billion. So it's really not a problem. So we've got a little bit more case stuff, though.

You like the court case stuff. We've got a little bit more case stuff, though. You like the court case stuff. In the early 2000s, some former employees filed lawsuits against her for doing things like fired me because I'm gay. She literally fired a guy because he was gay. Now, here's the deal. In the United States, most of us are employees at will, which means I can quit anytime I want to quit and they can fire me whenever they want to fire me for no reason. The only time it becomes illegal is if you give an illegal reason like you're gay or you're black or you're a woman or you're pregnant.

And so Leona must have told this guy, I'm firing you because you're gay, because he was awarded $11.2 million. Good for him. Now, of course, you got Dershowitz involved. Oh. $554,000. Oh, $554,000? Well, after you thought you were getting $11 million. Well, I'm sure they said, hey, don't count on your $11.2. Anyway, it got reduced to $554,000.

Sure, they said, hey, don't count on your 11.2. Anyway, it got reduced to 554. So she had some of these things come back on her from when she was in charge. That's a shame. And these people were like, this isn't making a dent. I mean, she could have given her 11.2 million and it wouldn't have made a dent. Okay. So we had a few more court cases, but here's the deal. She dies in 2007 at 87 degrees. She had an 87

degree temperature and they said, that's too cold. Yeah. And then they're like, this lady's dead. She's been dead for a couple of days in this hot apartment. No, congestive heart failure. She dies at 87, not degrees, years old. Kristen, don't be laughing at me. Now I've got the church giggles. Okay, so she's got $6 billion in her trust. And in her will, she gave two grandkids who must have, like, come and seen her or something. I don't know. They got $10 million each, $5 million up front and $5 million in a trust that if they went to visit their dad's grave site once a year

and it was documented that they could have the rest of the $5 million. Okay. Weird, weird thing to want. Nope, it's control. I totally get it. The other two grandkids, Zippo. I mean, they got nothing. Why not?

Well, we don't have any information on that. Okay. My guess is they didn't suck up to Grandma enough. Yeah, they did something wrong. And with a person like this, it can be literally anything. Anything. However, guess who did get $12 million? I already know because you already told me.

Her dog, Trouble. The dog's name is Trouble, and he got $12 million. Now, that might seem like a lot for a dog. I don't know. My dog has diabetes, and it's very expensive. Okay. I don't know that even what they reduced it to would be more than enough to take care of Peanut in the diabetic state. They reduced it to $2 million.

Now, so that's 24-hour care. That's $60,000 a year for somebody to watch the dog. That's, you know, and that's supposed to last 10 years. So $2 million. That is wild. That is wild. So that's what it got reduced to. That is wild. So that's what it got reduced to. Now, the good news is, so there's $10 million out there that either goes back into the trust or you've got the two grandkids out there that have got squat from super rich grandma.

Each of them, well, they looked themselves in the mirror and they said, let's go to court. And so they went to court and they got $3 million each because the judge said that Leona was not in a state of mind to be able to be competent enough to adjust the will the way she had. Now, I don't know why the other two got 10 million and they only got three because she must have had some reasoning behind why she was doing it. But they did go to court and they got $3 million each, which when grandma is worth $6 billion and you only got $3 million, not a good deal, not a good deal. But I don't think any of the four of them probably expected squat from her because they just didn't have a relationship with the lady. They just happened to be her grandkids. But I can understand. I mean, you'd be like, well, who else is the money going to go to?

The dog? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. I mean, I would think even if you didn't have much of a relationship, you wouldn't be expected to not be in the will at all. True, true. I will tell you, though, that I think guys like Warren Buffett, I think they I think Warren Buffett's grandkids get to go to any school anywhere that they want as far as as long as they want to do as much as they want. He pays for all the education, but I don't think he gives them much at all as far as,

you know, money. But I bet he communicates that with them. Oh, yeah, yeah. I think it's the lack of communication that makes people assume, well, I'll probably get something. Yeah, yeah. Especially when your brother and sister got something. Yeah.

That's kind of a bad deal. Well, so that is the story of Leona Helmsley. As sad as it is from a personal relationship standpoint. That's terrible. Before I close it out, though, let me say this. She did give a ton of money to charity. Of course, you know, $6 billion. I mean, most of us can't even imagine what that is.

A billion is a thousand millions. That's unbelievable. That's unbelievable. That's crazy. And so she gave a ton of money to charities in the New York City area, helped build a hospital. She did things like that. And now this trust fund that she has is basically going to fund philanthropic causes in New York City. So it's how weird that such a mean lady has now become such a source of good through her money. Yeah. Yeah. Assuming it goes to good causes, it could be going to the committee to reelect.

So, oh, oh, oh, watch out, Kristen. You know, I'm sure we've got like 12 Trump supporters who listen to this show and they are really upset right now. They're appalled. They are appalled at the way you are speaking about our dear leader. I believe you were the one who was drawing the comparisons. Yeah, I was. Oh, in a positive way, though. Did that sound negative? I was meaning that to sound positive.

Now more compliments for Trump. So that is the story of Leona Helmsley, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Well, that was quite good. Oh, thank you. Okay, are you ready for this? Yeah, I don't have anything. I'm just... Yeah, you're just listening.

Yeah. Are you ready to listen? I'm ready for this. Actually, let me... Okay, so first of all, huge shout out to Mark Gribben from the Crime Library for his article, The Klaus von Bulow Case. This article is super, super, super thorough. If you want to know the whole dang story, go read Mark's article.

I'm basically giving you the poor man's version of his article, and I've left a lot on the cutting room floor. So if you want more information, head over. What are you doing? Are you flipping through your notebook? Are you bored already? Sorry. Oh, great. Getting close to your bedtime.

Let's talk about an American socialite. It was the fall of 1932, and a married couple was on a train headed from Virginia to New York. These two were rich. The husband was George Crawford. He founded Columbia Gas and Electric. He owned the Lone Star Gas Company in Texas. He owned oil in Mexico. He was a trustee on the Union Trust Company of Pittsburgh.

You get the idea. The dude was loaded. Hey, if they're so loaded, why are they on a train? Shouldn't they be on like one of those fancy new TWA flights? It's 1932. Yeah. Well, wasn't TWA around back then? I don't know. I feel like the Wright brothers had like just barely gotten off the ground.

That was like 1904. Come on. Okay. So they were in a hovercraft. So he was loaded. So was she. Annie Wormack came into the marriage rich as she could be because her father founded the International

Shoe Company, which was based out of the great state of Missouri and sold shoes out the yin-yang. I say Missouri, so can you please try to pronounce it correctly? I hate it when people say Missouri. Your parents said Missouri. No, they didn't. Yes, they did!

No, no, no. Dad, your mom, Missouri. Your parents said Missouri. No, they didn't. Yes, they did! No, no, no. Dad. Your mom? Missouri. Well, I don't remember that. You don't remember living in Missouri with your parents who called it Missouri? Who lived there their whole lives? Uh-huh.

So, this very wealthy couple was on the train, and obviously they were in their own private railroad car because it'd just be horrid not to be. And all of a sudden, uh-oh, Annie went into labor. At the time, Annie was like 30, and George was 70. Oh, oh my, that is too much of an age gap. You sound fake. I am about to throw up for real over here.

That's disgusting. Well, seriously, is he really the father or is we got some funny business going on here with Annie? I kind of hope there's funny business, honestly. Yeah, yeah. You don't want that old sperm. Ew, gross. Oh, sorry. What did I do to deserve this?

Hey, you know, you're much more bothered by an age gap than I am. But this is— 70 and 30, that's disgusting. That's pretty bad. And she was rich, so I don't—I mean, I guess you want to be more rich. Yeah, you can never have enough. Like right now, I'm super wealthy, but I want to be super duper wealthy. That's my goal.

Well, I think we can all get behind that. The only thing I was thinking is, I mean, 70 years old in the 30s, I'm sure she was like, well, how many months do I have to stick this out? Yeah, I hope she didn't sign a prenup because, you know, you want to get the whole thing, the whole enchilada. I don't believe she did. Oh, was his first wife a Quaker also? Those poor Quakers. Everything turned out fine. Annie gave birth to a daughter who they nicknamed Choo Choo, because everyone's a comedian.

And her actual name was Martha Sharp Crawford, but eventually she got another nickname, Sunny. Everyone for the rest of her life would call her Sunny. But before we get to that part, you should know that when Sunny was three or four years old, her father did die. Oh, so we got the we got the whole enchilada now on the money. How callous to poor George. When George died, Sunny inherited one hundred million dollars. Oh, see, now that sounds like a lot of money, but I was talking about billionaires. Well, this was in the 30s and adjusted for inflation.

Oh, you did it? Uh-huh. $1.9 billion. Oh, my. Some sources say she only inherited $75 million, but I don't think that sounds too bad. So, Sunny was raised by her mother and grandmother, and man, did her life look nice from the outside. They lived on Fifth Avenue in New York City, and every morning a Rolls Royce would pull up to the building

to take Sunny to her very exclusive all-girls private school, which is still around today. The Chapin School. Chapin or Chapin? I have no idea. That's why I said it like that. They spent their summers at the family estate in Greenwich, Greenwich? Greenwich.

Oh, God. Oh, man. That's where, that's, Leona's house is in Greenwich. I'm sorry. And I've said Greenwich before on the podcast and everybody laughed. People, please don't write in and make fun of Kristen for her mispronunciations. Please don't correct me. We all know how defensive I am.

She'll get defensive on you. But Sunny didn't just have money. She also had looks. Sunny was gorgeous, like Grace Kelly-level gorgeous, but she was always super shy, to the point that people sometimes thought she was dumb, which doesn't actually seem to be true. It just seems like she didn't want to talk to those bitches. So after she graduated high school, Sunny and her mom went to Europe and they lived it up.

One of the places that they went to was this amazing castle that had been built in the 1400s. Before World War II, it had become a sort of resort for rich people. But then World War II happened, and it became a fun place for Nazis to chill. But after the Nazis skedaddled, it was turned back into a resort. But there was a bit of a problem. All those Nazi signs on the walls? Who the hell was going to stay there? Here's a sad story.

Thanks in part to the war, there were all these royal people with fancy titles and great breeding, but no money. So the owner of the resort got an idea. He would cater to wealthy Americans, and the wealthy Americans would come over and they'd be like, oh, oh, who's this? Who's my tennis pro? Oh, it's Prince What's-His-Butt of La-Di-Da. How amazing. I'm a rich American and I'm dazzled by European royalty. And that's my Julia Child impression. That sounded pretty good, Christy. And that is exactly what happened to Sunny. At the resort, she met, and this is going to sound like a joke, but it's not, Alfred Edward Friedrich Vincent Maria Prince von Osberg.

You know, I'd ask you to do that again, but I don't think it'd come out any better, so we'll just stick with that version. He was hot. he was 19, and he was royal. You know, you say hot and royal, and, you know, usually there's so much inbreeding in those royal families that the guys, they look like doofuses, and they're not very sharp and all that. But this is an exception with all those names. Well, I don't know that he was very sharp, but apparently he was hot. Oh, okay. Hot.

But also broke. But Sunny didn't care. Sunny was in love. But her mom was like, I don't think so. She was like, first of all, you are four years older than him, and nobody likes a cougar, Brandy. That's a fun message for Brandy. Brandy's a cougar, Brandy. That's a fun message for Brandy. Brandy's a cougar, isn't she? Brandy's the biggest cougar there is.

Oh, my gosh. Brandy, that David guy, that guy is like, what, 12 years younger than her? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. 14. It's 12 or 14. Might be 15. Yeah, Brandy used to make fun of my age gap with Norman, which is a mere two years.

Like two years, yeah. And then she met David, who's 20 years younger than her. Yeah, I thought it was 18. Is it 20? Hard to say. Hard to say. Well, Brandy is probably going to be okay with this four-year age gap with hers being 20. Well, it would be hypocritical.

Yeah, it would be. Hopefully she won't be upset about it at all. Hopefully not, yeah. The other thing her mom said was, he's going to cheat on you. I can just feel it in my bones. And I hate to even bring it up, but he's Catholic.

Oh, Catholic. There's nothing worse than that. But Sonny couldn't be swayed. Sonny and Alfred, a.k.a. Alfie, got married on July 20, 1957, and they had two children. Princess Annie Laurie Von Arsberg. Arsberg? Ars?

Is it A-R-S, Arsberg? It's A-U-E-R-S-P-E-R-G. I like A-R-S-B-E-R-G. I like A-R-S-B-E-R-G. Arshberg. And then Prince Alexander Arshberg. Here's the thing about Alfie. Sonny's mom had been right. He was Catholic.

Oh, no. And he was a cheater. And Sonny wasn't okay with that. So the couple divorced in 1965. And Sonny wasn't okay with that, so the couple divorced in 1965. And while she was separated from Prince Alfie, Sonny went to a dinner party and met Klaus von Boulot. Klaus had kind of an interesting background. His family at one time had had a ton of money, but they'd lost it during World War I.

Well, you knew they had a ton of money because of the von. Oh, yeah. You got the von or the van. The name, yeah. You got that prefix to your last name. You got cash. What does the last name Pitts say about us? You mean Vaughn Pitts. We are Vaughn Pitts. That doesn't fit at all, does it? Kind of like wearing overalls over a tuxedo. Kind of like wearing overalls over a tuxedo. So his family was pretty well connected. So Klaus went to really good schools where he was around all these super rich kids, and this created a ton of tension. He didn't have the wealth that his peers did, but man, did he want it.

The dude was super ambitious. He went on to practice law in London and eventually became the personal assistant to J. Paul Getty, founder of Getty Oil. Ever heard of him? Ever heard of him? Around that time, Fortune magazine called J. Paul Getty the richest living American. So again, Kloss wasn't super rich himself, but he was rich adjacent, and he was the life of the party, which was the exact opposite of Sonny. The two hit it off, and on June 6, 1966, they got married. The next year, they had a daughter whom they named Cosima von Boulot, but this marriage was rocky, But this marriage was rocky.

And that's because, in my personal opinion, Klaus was a super douche. Here's the thing. Douche canoe? I thought you said douche canoe. I say a lot of things. Oh, okay. Sorry. Some of them true.

So he loved Sonny's money, but he was too insecure to handle the fact that his wife was the one who had all the money. Plus, she wasn't really giving him enough of it. Sonny had set up a trust, which paid him $120,000 a year. Adjusted for inflation, that was about $425,000 a year. So no one could be expected to live off of that. No, you can't. That's not enough to live on. Not to live comfortably. I mean, you could maybe get by. You could maybe scrape by with a few trips to the food bank,

maybe. Food bank, and you're going to have to hit the pizza joints and stuff like that. But yeah, you're not going out high on the town for $50,000, wouldn't you say? $4.25? $4.25, adjusted for inflation. Yeah, it's tough. I couldn't do it. I couldn't live on that amount. Uh-huh. Sunny was super annoying because she was just nuts, you know? In her opinion, a marriage meant spending time together and enjoying one another's company. But Klaus wanted her to leave him alone and also give him more money and also let him live in her apartment on Fifth Avenue and also quit freaking out about the fact that he was totally cheating on her with a soap opera star. The soap opera star was Alexandra Isles.

Okay, this is before my time. I was born in 1958, so this is before my time. I'm sorry, sir. I'm sure she was a great soap opera star, but I've never heard of her. Quite beautiful. I did a Google search. Okay. So he wanted to marry Alexandra, but clearly Klaus was in a bit of a pickle.

What was he to do about this conundrum? More on that later. Well, that doesn't sound— You're leaving me hanging here, and I'm thinking the worst. I'm thinking the worst. Well, let's see how it all turns out. Okay, okay. There are a lot of happy endings on this podcast. Yeah, I've noticed that, so I'm waiting for the happy ending.

Fast forward to Christmas of 1979. The whole Von Below family was at their Clarendon Court mansion in Rhode Island. I've Googled it. It's amazing. Everyone was having a great time. What could be better than Christmas with family? But on December 26th, Sunny and Alexander, her son from her first marriage, had a few glasses of spiked eggnog. And immediately, Sunny started acting loopy, which, depending on who you ask, was kind of weird. Some people say that Sunny rarely drank, and when she did, she was a lightweight. So of course, one or two drinks might make her act weird. But other people claim that she had a serious drinking problem, so one or two drinks would have no impact on her.

Regardless of what was actually true, Alexander looked at his mom and was like, wow, she's sloshed, so he helped her get to bed, and then the next morning he got up early to play tennis. While he was playing tennis, Sonny's longtime maid, Maria, walked by Sonny's bedroom and heard a moan. maid, Maria, walked by Sonny's bedroom and heard a moan. So Maria went in and there was Sonny on a twin bed, unconscious, and Klaus just chilling. So Maria was like, uh, we need to get her medical treatment. And Klaus was like, no, not really. Just a sore throat. She's just sleeping it off. Calm down. But Maria wouldn't calm down. She was freaked out.

So when Alexander came home from playing tennis, Maria was in tears. And she said, look, your mom is sick and Klaus won't let me call a doctor. So Alexander rushed to his mom's side. And of course, Klaus wasn't far behind. And Alexander tried to shake his mom awake, but she wouldn't wake up. So Klaus was there like, oh, what should we do? And Alexander was like, call a doctor. They called the doctor and a family physician showed up. And soon after he arrived, Sonny vomited and stopped breathing.

The doctor performed CPR, got her breathing again, but Sunny was still unconscious. An ambulance came and took Sunny to the hospital, and once she got there, the doctors were like, okay, well, what the hell is going on here? And they drew some blood and figured out that she had an unusually high level of insulin in her body. Was she diabetic? Nope. Oh, oh, somebody shot her with some insulin. That's not good.

No, it's not. Sunny wasn't diabetic, never exhibited any signs of being diabetic. So something had happened to shoot her insulin through the roof, Daryl Pitts. I'm going to guess Sonny had, I mean, hey, that's his defense. Sonny did it to herself. Uh-huh. Yeah, you're definitely jumping ahead. Shooting up insulin. As we often do. It's the fun new street drug, insulin. So days went by. It's the fun new street drug, insulin. So days went by. Finally, Sunny came out of her coma.

But doctors still weren't totally sure what had caused it. So they asked her, hey, did you by any chance shoot yourself full of insulin? And she was like, no. They asked her all kinds of questions. Was she a drug user? Was she an alcoholic? She's like, no, I'm not a drug user. I'm not an alcoholic. I mean, I do love brownies, but I don't know what to tell you.

Hey, let me, a quick question. Is Klaus a diabetic? I don't believe so. I feel like that would have come up if he was. Okay. All right. I'm working on a theory here. Okay.

I don't want to share it, but I'm just, this theory is bouncing around in my mind. Oh, boy. I think I speak for everyone when I say I don't want to share it, but I'm just, this theory is bouncing around in my mind. Oh, boy. I think I speak for everyone when I say I'm very excited to hear this. So the doctors were like, right, right, right, right, right. Okay. You are hypoglycemic.

You had low blood sugar. That's why you went into a coma. Case closed. Thank you very much. P.S. From now on, don't go too crazy with the candy. And also,

don't go too long without eating. Goodbye. How old is she at this point? Oh, gosh. Good question. Probably 40s, I would assume. Okay. So Sonny went back home, and everything was normal.

Except Maria, the maid, was quietly suspicious of Klaus. She was like, that dude acted super weird when Sonny went into her coma and he only called the doctor because Alexander and I basically forced him to. But, you know, Maria went about her job, and one day while she was cleaning, she found Klaus's black travel bag. So she opened it. And inside it, she found a vial of liquid plus some powder and some pills. And Maria was no dummy, so she took notes on everything she found,

and she took samples of everything, and then she put it all back exactly how she'd found it. She told Sonny's daughter from her first marriage, Ala, what she'd found, and then she went to the doctor and said, Here's what I found. What is it? And the doctor said, well, huh? The liquid is Valium and the powder is a super strong sedative. We normally use it for people who have severe insomnia. But he was like, you know, I've actually prescribed both of these drugs to Sonny before, but never in this, in this form. Liquid Valium. What is that? Insomnia powder.

You know, this is insane. This is not normal. He said essentially, yeah, these are legal prescription drugs technically, but they aren't in the form that you should find them in. This is really weird. Here's where things got even weirder. Maria suspected something was up. Sonny's two children from her first marriage suspected something was up, but none of them told Sonny, and none of them confronted Klaus. Meanwhile, weird stuff kept happening, and in April of 1980, Meanwhile, weird stuff kept happening And in April of 1980, Sunny started acting disoriented And Maria called a doctor And oh man, it was the hypoglycemia again And wow, Sunny really needed to watch her diet

So she did, and Sunny was like, damn, I guess I have to have fruit for dessert But Maria kept checking on Klaus' little black bag And one day she found three syringes in it One was used There was a new vial. It was labeled insulin. So Maria went to Alexander and was like, hey, look at this. Isn't this strange? This Maria is like a detective. She's all over this. She's the only one who really is kind of figuring out what's going on. I think Alexander's onto it, too.

But, yeah, Maria is— But they didn't do anything. Even the doctor didn't do anything when giving that information. Okay, so I feel for Maria because I think maids probably see stuff and know stuff that they have to pretend not to know all the time. And I think it's part of the job to be a little blind and a little deaf. I, and she later says that she, she obeyed Klaus. But, I mean, clearly she felt very conflicted, so she went to Alexander, who, you know, has some power here.

And we'll get into that doctor later. Okay. So Christmas time rolled around again, and it was time to go back to beautiful Clarendon Court. But beforehand, Klaus was like, hey, Maria, you work so hard. Why don't you sit this trip out? And she said, okay. But first, she checked his suitcase. The little black bag was in it.

It contained the insulin. So the family headed off for a lovely Christmas. And on December 21st, 1980, the family had a lovely evening. They had dinner, and everybody kind of had a different story on whether Sunny actually ate the meal, but they knew one thing for sure. She definitely had ice cream. It was an ice cream sundae with caramel sauce, and she definitely ate it. Then the whole family went out and watched 9 to 5.

What a way to make a living. One of your favorite songs. Are you going to sing that, Chris? Because I like the playlist the lady has, and I don't know whether 9 to 5 is on it. So sing a few bars for us, please. You didn't think I was going to start from the very beginning. You know, Dolly Parton, when she was demoing that song for Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin, is that her name?

Yeah. She had her big fake acrylic nails, and that's how she got that start going. See, I'm throwing facts at you. Working 9 to 5, what a way to make a living. Come on. Oh, I'm not saying. No, I'm not saying. Wait, hang me off to dry.

I'm not Brandy over here. I've seen you in church so many years of my life pretending to sing along to a song. And that works in church. It does not work in front of a microphone on a podcast. Right. But you encouraged me to sing a few bars. I thought you were going to chime in. Sorry.

But that will put it on the playlist, and so I'm excited about that. I also feel ripped off because I've heard you sing 9 to 5 many a time. And it's a pretty sweet song, isn't it? Well, yeah, it's a great song. Hearing you sing it is not always great. Another fun fact about DP here, what's your other favorite Dolly Parton film? Oh, Best Little Whorehouse. Oh, my gosh.

I love Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. Texas has a whorehouse in it. Oh, wow. Okay. I wondered. Oh, my favorite song out of there is Dance a Little Sidestep. The politician. Oh, I love to dance a little sidestep.

Now you see me. That is a sweet. I can't think of the actor's name, but he's the governor, I think, of Texas. And the reporters are asking him questions, and he dances a little sidestep. And now you see me, now you don't. I've come and gone. It's a sweet song. Look it up.

I tell you what. I think about five people have seen that film, and they're really excited to hear you talk about it like this. No, what's going to happen now is that thing will blow up on the interwebs. Oh, because of the DP bump. Yeah, the DP bump. That's what they call it. You get the, I mean, what, you go up 25% when I'm on? Oh, my God.

And I think Best Little Whorehouse will, whether it's on Netflix or whatever it is, get ready for that to roll because that's coming. Okay. So they got back from 9 to 5. What a way to make a living. And Klaus went off to his study, and Sunny went to the bathroom for a while and then came out and hung out with her kids. She was drinking something.

Alexander thought it was ginger ale. But the longer they hung out, though, the weirder Sunny acted. She seemed so sleepy and kind of could barely hold her glass and was kind of bobbing and weaving. And Alexander was like, Mom, are you on something? Did you take some sleeping pills? And she said no. But eventually it got so bad that Alexander just carried his mom to bed. The next morning, the whole family got up and everybody was there, but Sonny wasn't. It was normal for her to sleep in for a while, but then it got to be like 11 a.m. and they were like, okay, this is kind of ridiculous. This is like Kristen late. What? I work hard. Yeah, you work hard.

Maybe not nine to five. You sleep till 11 though. No. Yeah, we don't call before 11. I haven't done that in months. We usually eat lunch and then we call you. Really? Knowing you'll be awake. Well. No, that was back in the day. You don't do that anymore. I wouldn't put it past myself.

11's too late. Yeah. 10.30. I've seen that number a few times when I wake up. Okay. Finally, around 11 a.m., Klaus was like, well, you know, I'll go check on her. So he went into their bedroom, came back out, and said, hey, Alexander, come here. Sunny was in the master bathroom.

She was unconscious on the floor. She was bleeding from her lip, and she was in a puddle of urine. She was ice cold, but still breathing. So they called an ambulance and Sonny was eventually transferred to Boston Hospital, to a Boston Hospital, where the doctors ran some tests and determined, you know, she was in a coma and she would never emerge from it. Klaus was just devastated. He said things to her kids like, you know, we should probably take her off life support. If we don't, her organs will fail and the doctors will remove them one by one. Wouldn't that be awful? Also, we should probably take her off life support because it'll be so expensive to keep her alive.

We'll all go bankrupt. Yeah, yeah, because they don't have hardly any money. Right, because they're all so poor, yeah. When she was about to be transferred to a religious hospital, he said, we should probably take her off life support. Because, you know, in this new hospital, because it's so religious, they are going to keep her on life support no matter what, no matter how expensive it gets, and no matter what we say. Weirdly, this all backfired. The arguments didn't hold up, and it actually made the kids super suspicious of him. So they hired themselves an attorney named Richard Kuh. They filled him in on the story, and then they realized that Klaus's black bag was their smoking

gun. They had to go find that black bag. He's gotten rid of that by now, surely. One would think. Uh-oh. Alexander looked everywhere, couldn't find it. But at that estate at Clarendon Court, he did come across a locked closet. And this closet, according to him, had never been locked before.

So he was like, all right, it's in here. So Alexander and a locksmith and one of the lawyer's investigators went to the house and got that door unlocked. And what did they find? The box. I mean, the bag. Depends on who you ask. Okay. Bottom line is that Alexander and the investigator came back to New York with the black bag. Alexander and the investigator came back to New York with the black bag. It contained pills and a vial of blue liquid and a syringe and some needles, the works. One of the needles had been used.

So they took the bag to their family doctor, and he sent the stuff to a lab, and turns out the used needle had traces of insulin on it. And the vial was filled with a mix of valium and a really strong sedative. None of the drugs were in a form that would be prescribed to anyone. They'd found the smoking gun. So they called the police, and the police interviewed Klaus in his Fifth Avenue apartment. He waived his right to an attorney because money can't buy you brains. And a few weeks later, Klaus went to Clarendon Court and the police were like, ooh, shit. Because at this point they had that black bag, but they didn't want Klaus to realize

it had gone missing. So the police rushed to the mansion and Klaus greeted them in a silk robe. They had a search warrant, but Klaus was like, it's cool. Go ahead, search away. And they read him his Miranda rights. And Klaus was like, oh, gee, maybe I need an attorney. And the officer was like, well, you have the right to one. But just so you know, you can end the questioning at any time. You're not under arrest. You don't have to answer every single question. And you're a rich white guy, so just calm down.

Everything's going to be fine. Everything's going to be just fine. And who's this Miranda guy anyway? That's right. What's up with that? He sounds like a real douche. So Klaus did calm down and he talked to the police for like two hours. Overall, they didn't get much, but it was enough. It was a circumstantial case and it was enough for a grand jury to indict Klaus on two counts of attempted murder. One for the first coma and another for the second permanent coma. And at this point, they've told him, we have your black bag. Oh, yeah. By this point, yeah.

Yeah. Klaus was in deep shit. So he hired two defense attorneys. One guy was pretty high profile, and another one was a Rhode Island guy because this was going to be held in Rhode Island. The defense team gets up and running. And they're like, that black bag has to be excluded from this trial because it was obtained illegally. And pretty please, Judge, can we exclude Sonny's

medical information? Because, you know, technically that's private. And with her being in a coma and all, she can't consent to handing over that information. So maybe we should all just shut up about it. And Klaus talked to the police for two hours, but that entire conversation should be thrown out because he didn't know his rights. He didn't know he was free to leave. He was scared. Scared little boy. Scared. Hey, F. Lee Bailey, was he one of the attorneys?

For O.J. No, I'm talking about for Klaus. I know's cute. Hey, F. Lee Bailey, was he one of the attorneys? For O.J. No, I'm talking about for Klaus. I know. No, okay, okay. For some reason, I was thinking F. Lee Bailey was. Now you got me all paranoid that I've missed out on F. Lee Bailey. No, maybe not. Maybe not.

The judge was like, nope, nope to everything. Judge Thomas Needham decided that the black bag could be included as evidence because we are protected from illegal searches from state agents. But the dudes who found that black bag weren't acting as state agents. Good point. It is a good point because I mean it kind of reminds me of how people get fired up about free speech. And they don't realize that it just means that the government can't come after you for your speech. You know, you can still get in trouble in a Walmart, you know. So then the judge was like,

yeah, it's real sweet that you boys are concerned about Sonny's medical privacy. But that statute is there to protect victims. It's not to protect the accused. And Lil Klaus was well aware of his rights when he had that conversation with police. Defense motions denied. And when you say Lil Klaus, was he a rapper at this time? Is that why he went by Lil Klaus? That's the worst rap name ever. Lil Klaus. Oh, Lil Klaus, wow. You just don't know the way you move so fast across the floor. You got me running through my mind like all the time to the point that I just want to take you home. Oh, ta-da. Clues, fa-clow. Very good, Dad. So with that, the trial got started, and it was wild. Jurors got to tour Clarendon Court.

They got to see the sketchy locked closet and admire all the mauve and ivy that was no doubt splashed all over the fabulous 1980s mansion. You know what? I would like to be on that jury because I want to see that mansion. That sounds cool. Me too. That would be so fun. Yeah. The prosecutor kicked off his case by putting Alexander on the stand.

Alexander told the jury the whole story. He'd never seen his mom on drugs. He'd never seen her drunk. He talked about how Klaus had complained to him about being married to his mom. And he said Klaus, you know, boo-hoo-hoo, said that he was a kept man and that Sonny stopped him from reaching his full potential as a businessman. He said that about a month before her last coma, his mom told him that she wanted to divorce Klaus. He talked about finding that black bag, and he held up well

under cross-examination. Then Maria Schralhammer took the stand. She was the maid. She said that Sonny didn't have a drug problem, didn't have a drinking problem. She talked about the black bag and how she'd never told Sonny about her concerns because she was basically afraid of Klaus. She always obeyed Klaus. Then she had to admit that she had perjured herself in the past. Oh, where? It was during her testimony to the grand jury. They wanted to know why Sonny wanted to divorce Klaus, and she said she didn't know why. But the truth was, she did know why.

Sonny had told her in confidence that she wanted to divorce Klaus because she felt her lifestyle was holding back Klaus's business ambitions. But Maria hadn't told the grand jury that information because she honestly thought that Sonny might recover from the coma, and she didn't want to have broken her trust for nothing. So then the prosecution spent weeks bringing medical personnel to the stand. They talked about insulin's effect on the body and a bunch of technical mumbo-jumbo. Most of it was boring as hell.

That is, except for the testimony of Richard Stock, who was Sonny's family physician. He was the one who had discovered the insulin on the used needle that had been in the black bag. And he was asked, dude, you thought someone was trying to hurt, maybe even kill your patient. Why didn't you say anything to the patient? And he responded, you're on a sensitive subject, counselor. We have libel laws in this country. I can't afford to make an accusation that I can't back up in court. Which is the douchiest response ever.

And the attorney was like, okay, but wouldn't you have said something if you thought someone was trying to secretly inject Sonny with insulin? And the doctor said, don't you think I wish to heck I'd had mentioned it? Every time I go into her hospital room now, I say to myself, why didn't I mention this? Then the prosecution brought in the gorgeous soap opera star, Alexandra Iles. Alexandra did not want to be in court, but that was too bad, so sad. So sad. Too bad, so sad. So she got on the stand and was like, look, yes, I told Klaus multiple times that I wanted him to leave Sonny and marry me. And yes, he gave me the money to buy myself a BMW, but I was not his mistress.

No, no. She's an actress. She's an actress. She doesn't need that money. A mistress is a kept woman and I am not a kept woman. Then the prosecution talked money. This part is slightly complicated because a lot of the money was tied up. But the bottom line is that if Sonny died, Klaus would stand to gain about $14 million.

Adjusted for inflation, $44 million. Okay. And in case the jury was worried that maybe it had been one of Sonny's children who had tried to kill her, they were like, nope, nobody, nope, because these super rich people don't pay their fair share of taxes, which is evidently a theme in this episode. that as long as there was some charitable work being performed, you could allow the family fortune to skip a generation and you avoid a ton of taxes. So I've heard about that. Really? That's why you're getting nothing. Oh, great. From the great Von Pitts dynasty. Von Pitts dynasty, you shall get nothing. It'll all go to Peanut, the diabetic dog. So, you know, it's all complicated and infuriating, but the bottom line is that the kids all stood to gain way more from their grandma dying than from their mom dying. So it didn't make sense for them to want to kill their mom.

So to wrap up the prosecution's case with a pretty little bow, Klaus had tried to kill Sonny twice by giving her insulin. He did it because he wanted her money and because he wanted to be with his super hot soap opera star girlfriend. Actrice. Actrice. Actrice. Actrice. I pronounced it wrong. People, should we explain that?

Well, oh, that's right. You have to be in the Discord. No, you have to be on Patreon at the $7 level. You see our bonus videos, and that's where I was reading from my diary about wanting to become an actor-ese. Oh, so sign up at the $7 level to get the inside scoop on the inside joke actor-ese. inside scoop on the inside joke, Actories. Because most listeners who aren't in the Discord, I'm sorry, are not at the $7 level. You're about to get fired from this very podcast.

I am 100% owner in this podcast. You cannot fire me. Also, I do not pay taxes. Only little people pay taxes. Oh, okay. So the defense took over and their case wasn't too bad. They brought in the locksmith who said that when they got into that closet and the investigator looked in searching for that black bag, he said, it's not here. Then the butler testified and he backed up something that Klaus had said.

So get this. There was obviously some controversy over the fact that Klaus had locked that closet when the police came. But Klaus claimed that he had locked the closet not because the mysterious black bag was in there, but because he had a shotgun in that closet. And he didn't want it to be found because he thought it was illegal. Apparently, it's perfectly legal to have an unlicensed shotgun in Rhode Island. But at any rate. If you're rich. I think for anyone, but you know, I don't know. The butler did say that, yes, there had been a shotgun in that closet. Then came Joy O'Neill. Wait a minute, this is a new name. Joy was a ballerina turned fitness instructor, and man, did she have a story to tell.

She was like, yep, I know Sunny quite well. Been her personal trainer for five years. We're like sisters, really. She exercises with me five days a week. And fun fact about Sunny, she loves to inject herself with insulin. It's her weight loss tool. Oh, my. In fact, one time we were working out together,

and I was like, oh, my stomach is so fat. And she was like, just inject yourself with insulin. That'll burn up all the sugar you're getting from your daily glass of wine. I'm guessing that the fitness business wasn't doing real well, and so she was taking money on the side from Klaus. Ooh. Quite an accusation. Quite an accusation. About our good friend Joy O'Neill.

It sounds weird that she – have you ever heard injecting – No. No. No, you don't inject yourself with insulin. That's ridiculous. Yeah, so it's – that's why I'm saying she's. It sounds not only incredibly dangerous, but also totally ineffective. Check her bank records, please.

Well, how about this? How about the fact that the prosecution called a rebuttal witness who had all the receipts from the workout studio, which clearly showed that although, yes, Sonny did frequently go to that particular studio, she'd never had Joy O'Neill as an instructor. Oh, Joy is making it up. Yep. The defense also brought forth witnesses who backed up their contention that perhaps Sunny had injected herself as a way to commit suicide. Mm-hmm.

Which, come on. One witness was a hospital employee who claimed that while they were drawing Sonny's blood after her first coma, she confided that she had attempted suicide. Then a psychiatrist who'd spent a whopping 20 minutes with Sonny after her first coma claimed that Sonny confided that she and Klaus hadn't had sex for five years and that she often wished she was dead. You know, they got a lot of people on the take here, it sounds to me like.

I just think that psychiatrist was really good because 20 minutes sounds like she really just told her whole life story, all her troubles. In short, the defense contended that Sonny had done this to herself. The jury deliberated for five days. They found him guilty on both counts. Good deal. Klaus and his legal team were pissed.

The lead dude, Harold Ferringer, was like, that's it. He filed for a new trial. And in the meantime, he was like, we're going on Barbara Walters. We're going on every show we can go on. And in the spring of 1982, the judge was like, no, dude, you're not getting a new trial. We're done here. And Klaus was sentenced to 30 years in prison. Did they go on Jerry Springer?

That's where I'd go. They were after a classier program. Oh. The Barbara Walters with the soft lighting. Ba-ba-wa-wa. We used to watch the Barbara Walters stuff. What? I did? Yeah! Yeah, we, as a family, we would watch 20-20.

Yeah, I remember watching some of it. I remember Gilda Radner doing ba-ba-wa-wa on Saturday Night Live, and that was some good stuff. Was it Gilda Radner doing blah, blah, blah, blah on Saturday Night Live, and that was some good stuff. Was it Gilda Radner who did it? Yeah. You were trying to say, oh, some of this stuff, I'm too young to know this stuff, and now you're talking about Gilda Radner on SNL. That's what that looked for.

It was for. So he's sentenced to 30 years in prison. So he's sentenced to 30 years in prison. But in exchange for $1 million bond, he was allowed to go free as a bird as he waited for his appeal to go through. Things were rough for the family. Sonny's children from her first marriage, Alexandra and Ala, were very relieved that their stepfather had been convicted. Justice had been served. But Sonny and Klaus had another child together, and that child, Cosima, stood by her father. She believed in his innocence. And for that, her grandmother slash Sonny's mom disinherited

Cosima. In other words, for siding with her father, Cosima lost out on $30 million. That's an expensive decision there. I think, Dad, I'd be like, Dad, I'm secretly your friend. But Grandma's giving me $30 million. But Grandma's in her 80s, and let's just ride this out. So a few years went by and the grandma annie laurie aiken died and all the money went to alexander and ala but at this point you know class had bigger things on his mind he was in deep shit so he called on famed attorney

and harvard law school faculty member, Alan Dershowitz. And I'm going to skip through my little thing. I have all those names mentioned here, too. And at this point, Klaus's former lead attorney was like, I can see when I'm not wanted. And then he left Alan Dershowitz and the Rhode Island law expert to defend Klaus. Dershowitz felt like their best shot at a successful appeal would be to show that they had new evidence that hadn't been at trial. Didn't take long to drum some up. None other than Truman freaking Capote came forward to say that 30 years earlier, Sonny had shown him how to inject himself with drugs, and she told him that she was a big fan of injecting herself with drugs.

Truman Capote. Oh, my gosh. I will say this was in a rougher part of his life. You know, toward the end, he wasn't doing so hot. Yeah. But Joanne Carson, ex-wife of Johnny Carson, came forward and was like, yeah, Truman's right. Truman Capote died before he could be cross-examined, so his affidavit was basically useless, and there's no reason for me to tell you any of this, but it's Truman Capote, so here it is. At the same time, the defense focused on, you know, what evidence had been available at the first trial. They looked at the black bag. They found that when they looked at initial interviews, it was hard to know what exactly had been found in that black bag initially. Alexander and the private investigator had differing accounts. Then there were questions about that used needle, which had insulin all

over it. According to the new experts for the defense, if the needle had been injected into Sonny, then there would have been some evidence of that. There would have been tissue or blood found on the needle, not just insulin. But that needle didn't just have insulin on it. It also had Valium, but Valium wasn't found in Sunny's system. Also, they found a drug on the needle that always causes bruising, but Sunny didn't have bruises. Also, doctors couldn't find any spots where Sonny had been injected. Say what you will about Alan Dershowitz, but this appeal was very thorough. I left a lot out, but they really...

Oh, the dude knows what he's doing. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Hey, if I'm ever found guilty of anything... Oh, like you could afford Alan Dershowitz. Oh, hey, absolutely. Hey, if I'm ever, you know, found guilty of anything. Oh, like you could afford Alan Dershowitz. Oh, hey, spare no expense. I'm going to have to sell some video games around here. So in their brief, they made it very clear that the case against Klaus had been pretty damn shaky and that Sunny had had her share of problems.

It took seven months for the Rhode Island SUPREME COURT to make their decision, and they sided with defense. So in the spring of 1985, it was take two electric boogaloo, and at this point Dershowitz had worked his magic, so he hopped into the back seat, and a dude named Thomas Puccio led the defense team. The prosecution's case was pretty similar to the first one. Maria and Alexander were the stars of the show, but this time the defense had something that they hadn't had in the first case, and it was the notes from that first New York attorney that Alexander had hired. Those notes had been kept from the defense at the first trial,

and it was one of the reasons why they got a new one. Those notes showed that Maria hadn't mentioned insulin being in the bag during her first interview with the attorney. The notes also mentioned that the family had talked about paying Klaus off on the condition that he formally renounce interest in Sonny's estate. So maybe they were just greedy assholes. The bottom line is that in this trial, the defense was way more defensive.

They attacked all of the prosecution's witnesses and really questioned all the medical testimony. And as a result, the prosecution's case became as weak as a kitten. And on top of that, the new judge was like, uh, prosecution, I'm not going to let you call in Sonny's banker. All that talk of money would probably just prejudice the jury. It would do more harm than good, so you got to keep it out. The prosecution was in rough shape.

The defense called in experts who said that Sonny's two comas weren't consistent with an insulin overdose. The jury deliberated for four days, and they found him not guilty. But the legal battles continued. Alexander and Alla were certain that Klaus had tried to murder their mom. They didn't want him to profit in any way from her estate. So, 10 days after he was acquitted, they sued Klaus for 56 million dollars on behalf of their mother. The lawsuit dragged on for like a year, and finally in 1987, they settled. Here were the conditions. Klaus agreed to divorce Sonny. He gave up all claims to her money, and he agreed to leave the

country. In exchange, Cosima was written back into the dead grandma's will, and she got one third of the estate. Alexander and Alla were deeply upset by their stepfather's acquittal. So they decided to do something about it. They reached into their very deep pockets and founded the National Center for Victims of Crime. And they also founded the Sunny Von Boulot Coma and Head Trauma Research Foundation. And Sunny died in a nursing home in 2008. She lived for, I believe, 28 years in a coma after this. Oh, my. Yeah, which is just horrible.

And that's the story of Sunny Von Boulot. Boulot. Boulot. That's a sad story. I had heard a lot of that because I was of age to kind of be aware of most of that. I had no idea she was in that coma for 28 years, though. Oh, my. That's terrible.

Yeah, yeah. Pull the plug on me. You're done? Well, I mean, after a while, if it's clear I'm not coming out of the coma, I don't want to be living in a vegetative state for 28 years. Me either. Yeah, I know you don't. Yeah.

Rip it. I don't want them to take my organs one by one, which is what they do, evidently, according to Klaus. Klaus said to convince the kids of that. So, yeah, we'll pull the plug on you, Chris. No problem. I'll be like Elaine Bennis on Seinfeld. Rip it. Rip it out. Okay. What do you think though? Do you think he did it? You know, when you, at the first trial, it sounded like he was guilty as hell. Yeah. But you get Dershowitz in there and they get the conflicting stories. Yeah. But it's, it sounds to me like

these quote unquote experts or people who are in the know were just totally making it up. So I think he might be guilty. I feel the same way. It's like I don't really know. I think it's kind of a crapshoot with some of this medical stuff and saying, well, they didn't find this in her system. Well, were they looking for that in her system? Yeah. Well, and so much of this is revolving around money, too.

I mean, obviously, everyone should be concerned with Sunny and what did Klaus do? But, oh, my gosh, the money comes up all the time. And we're going to pay him off if he'll leave. And oh, the daughter gets the money now. And there's as much money mix up as there is murder mix up. So it's kind of tough. But we'll pull the plug on you, Chris. No problem. Thank you.

Well, there's going to be a lot of money at stake. I can tell you that. I've got a couple of Chili's gift cards that haven't run all the way out. I can't wait to get my hands on those. You want to take some questions from the Discord? Questions from the Discord, absolutely. You're still awake. It's almost 9 o'clock.

Yeah. You know, we'll go ahead and ask a few questions. But there was a question on the last Discord thing that I want to answer. But let's try some of these first. Go ahead. Get off your mind. One of them came up was, what's the closest you ever came to being arrested? Oh, gosh.

Okay. I've got a story. Everybody buckle up. I hope you've got half an hour more. No, I'm going to make this quick. I'm going to make this quick. So Sherry and I are out in Arizona a couple of years ago. And we are camping in a campground, a county campground. And we've been there for several

days, but we needed to buy one more night. And so we pull into the guard station there, and they've got these, you know, old people. That's anybody older than me is an old person. I was going to say. And I waited in line for like 15 minutes to get up there. And I said, hey, I want to buy one more night of camping in here. And then we're out of here tomorrow. And the lady says, oh, you'll have to go get out of the line and drive over to this hut over here to pay the camping and then get back in line and get. I was like, oh, gosh, OK.

So I pull out around the little guard hut station and get back in line or get ready to go over to this other guard hut thing. And mom says, Sheree says, no, let's just leave. Let's just go get the motor home and leave. So I pull up there to that line again. I thought, I'm not waiting in this line. The lady knows my story. I've talked to her already. I'm just going to pull around and go up the exit

into the county campground. And so I pull around and go up the exit into the county campground. And we get up there and we start getting everything ready to leave. And so we pull out into this like large cul-de-sac type area, and there's four county sheriff cars. One of them is blocking the exit, and the other three are looped around, and they come in behind me because I pull off to the side. But we're pulling off to get water, and Sherry is going to get water to hook up to the motorhome. Well, just on a hunch, I thought, they're after us for pulling into the place backwards, you know, going out the exit. You didn't really see four cop cars and think they're after me, did you? Sherry didn't.

Sherry said, oh, man, somebody must have done something bad here. We got four sheriff cars here. We got four sheriff cars here. And so I get out, and Kristen, I was so happy because I had a tag for that day. So I was in there legally, and as far as I knew, I hadn't done anything. And I kind of thought that lady was kind of pissy with me when I said, okay, we'll have to go around and get back. And I may have given her a sarcastic look. Oh, may have. May have. Which is code for absolutely did. So here's what happened. So I get out. Sherry's on the other side of the motorhome. I'm on the driver's side of the motorhome where

I'm out. And I get approached by a female deputy who is obviously in charge. And she is flanked by these three deputies. Hold on, hold on. What exactly did they think you had done? Well, that's what we're going to find out. Okay. So she approaches me and then I noticed the three of them are flanking behind, the ones behind her. Are they like geese?

On either side. They were ready to pounce. Flying south, uh-huh. Behind her, on either side, they were ready to pounce. Flying south, uh-huh. And so she says, sir, we have a report that you are in the park illegally without a pass and that you drove recklessly up the exit to come into the park. And I said, well, there's the Jeep right there. And as you can see, the hang tag is today's date.

So I did not come in here illegally. And I have a pass for today. And actually, we're leaving. You know, I had asked for an extra day, but we're leaving. And she was a little taken aback that I had a pass. Yeah. She says, would you get that for me? And so I went and got the pass and handed it to her. And she gave it to one of the deputies and had him run back to the front, which is like two-mile drive back to the front of the park, to see if it was legal. And I am as smart-ass as you can imagine, but without actually being a smart-ass. Dad, you were absolutely a smart-ass. And I'm looking around at these guys, and I'm kind of smirking at them.

Kind of smirking. And I said looking around at these guys and I'm kind of smirking at them. Kind of smirking. And I said, the lady knows the whole story. I went up and talked to her and we decided to leave. And so I just, there's a quarter mile that you can see in this exit. There was no reckless driving. I drove up that because I'd already talked to the lady and she knew my story. And so by that time, the deputy comes back and he says, yeah, it's a good pass, but she wants him out of here.

And I said, no, I don't care what she wants. We're leaving. We made that decision to leave. And that's why- You can't fire me. I quit. Exactly. And I wanted, you know, a total smart ass, but you're dealing with the Maricopa County. This is Judge Arpaio. Oh, God. Yeah, this is Phoenix. And so this is Judge Arpaio.

In fact, a friend of mine later said, you're lucky you're white. You're absolutely lucky you're white. Are you kidding me? So I wanted so badly to say something like, you don't have much going on that you send four guys out after a retiree. Dad, you don't say that to crazy people with guns. No, no. She started apologizing. She says, well, normally we don't bring out four people.

These guys haven't been out here before. So I wanted to show them the place and blah, blah, blah. She's making up stuff. And I am smirking at her. And they handed me that pass and eventually said, you need to leave. And I said, hey, can I go dump my gray and black tanks into the sewer area and fill up with water? Sure, go ahead. But they were embarrassed that they had fallen for all the lies that the lady had told on me.

And so that's how I almost. Was she a white lady? She was a white lady. I think there should be a special punishment for white people who call the police when it turns out to be basically nothing. She was a Karen. She was the first Karen. This was two years ago.

She was the original Karen. The original Karen, except it was against another old white guy. Whatever. That's just a bad habit to get in, calling the cops on people. It is. Chris, I'm ready for more questions. Oh, boy. Okay.

Oh, okay. Someone asked a question. We've got to address this. Carrie Daniel wants to know, am I missing a lot by being too late to the party to be Facebook friends with DP? Yeah, I have gone in. Actually, I thought I had unfriended everyone. Did you explain that you had asked me to unfriend all? No, no, that's why I'm bringing this up now. You guys, my dad, it's 1997 right now. And my dad is a 13 year old girl. And I'm trying to teach him

the dangers of the interwebs. Turns out you were accepting friend requests from random people who listened to the podcast. Yes, I was. And so I found out about that because somebody mentioned it in the discord and also mentioned that all of your posts were public, like a lunatic. No, no, they're not public. Oh, you're talking about back in the day. Back in the day, a month ago. Yeah. Okay. So I called you. I was like, listen, 13 year old dad, only accept Facebook friend requests from people you know. Okay. And put your Facebook on private. Okay.

And you're like, okay. I did. See, I didn't remember the only from people you know. Because I didn't unfriend. Like three or four people had friended me. Uh-huh. And I didn't unfriend any of them. So.

Right. I must have missed the memo. So then what happened this week? Well, this week something came on. Somebody posted something saying the guy has hilarious posts. Someone praised you in the discord. Someone praised the discord. And so I got like eight, almost immediately, I got eight friend requests. Dad, you went into the discord because you heard the applause from miles away. And you said, Kristen made me put my Facebook on private, but see if you guys can find me and friend me. I said, yes!

See, I don't even remember what I've done. You went in there and you said, oh, I dare you to find me. Oh, and here I am. You know, I feel like I've had a good interweb safety class with you. And then it's like I find out that some old dude sent you a webcam in the mail. So then, you know, you accepted a bunch of friend requests from people from the podcast. Probably in the neighborhood of 20. So I—are you serious?

I think—because there was eight, and then there were—I think there were—because when I went in and started— God, Dan. And I think I missed a couple because I deleted a couple today, too. So anyway. I apologize to the listeners that I can't be Facebook friends with you. Because my daughter's so mean. But I'm only 13, and I can't take any more nude pics and send them to you. Ew.

That's gross. Well, that's what the guy wanted. He wanted some nude pics of me. You know what would be really hilarious? This is a new version. It's X-rated to catch a predator. The guy thinks he's talking to a young teenage girl, and then he gets an old man taking pictures. That'll scare him.

That'll teach him. That'll do it. So apologies to all the listeners that want to be Facebook friends with me, but it's private now, and no one is going to— If I don't have mutual friends or, you know, know you in some way, then no more friendships. Sorry. Solly. Okay. That Solly was an attack on me because when I was a child, you guys, and I was forced to apologize.

Oh, God, we're getting back to me apologizing. And I didn't want to apologize. I would say Solly because I didn't want to have to actually say sorry. And it worked every time. Yeah. No, I will say my my strict rules with your Internet usage, sir, has nothing to do with like, you know, nothing to do with people, you know, affiliated with the podcast or anything. It's just that I think boundaries are a thing. We should use them.

I'll not do that again. I apologize. No, it's okay. Solly. Solly to everyone around. Oh, my gosh. Someone has asked the perfect question. Dogs Like Bones wants to know, DP, what is your greatest money-saving moment?

Greatest money-saving moment. Actually, this is more of a, yeah, this is a money-saving moment, but it's a money-making moment at the same time. So we have moved a lot, and we always look for homes that are undervalued. And you can find homes that are undervalued. They got bad paint jobs. They need a new roof for whatever reason. And I won't give specific numbers because you're not supposed to do that, Kristen. But we bought a house 10 years ago and sold it this year for twice what we paid for it. And it's because we bought it in a down market in 2010 when the market was terrible. In fact, a lot of people couldn't get loans. And then we turned around and sold it for twice what we paid.

And we didn't put that much in it. It didn't take a whole lot to put in. We sold it for twice what we made. People do that all the time. And it's just a matter of timing and hitting the market right and recognizing what a home could be instead of what it is, what it appears to be to most people. So we essentially lived free for 10 years and made a ton of money at the same time. Skill and luck. Oh, a lot of luck. Yeah. A lot of luck. Yeah. Uh, and, and, and timing and skill, luck and timing. So I guess the timing and the luck, well, that's what I'm saying with like, you know, the market, you know, you, you didn't plan for that, but you, you were able to kind of ride that wave and be on the good side of both of that. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's, it's, I think about the fact that we had thought we'd sold our previous house, you know, six or eight months earlier. And had we done that, we wouldn't have had a chance to buy this one because this one had to come down in price. We were buying it from a bank. And so that's, well, there's a good tip for you. Buy foreclosures from banks because they're unemotional. They won't give them away, but they're ready to get rid of a house. They don't want to have to maintain a house. And so that's the second foreclosure we had bought. And we made out really, really well on both of them that we bought. And we stayed in them for a few years. But, yeah, buy foreclosures if you can. How much money have you saved over the years from buying Costco Kirkland Signature tennis shoes?

That's in the tens of thousands of dollars. And how many runways have you walked in them? Runways. I'm not a model, Kristen. I just look like one. I look like a model, but I am not a model, Kristen. I just look like one. I look like a model, but I am not a model. Okay. But if Costco ever has a fashion show, you know they're going to call me.

And me too, unfortunately. Michael the Moose wants to know, DP, what's your favorite non-clothing item at Costco? Non-clothing item at Costco. They got some good food at Costco. Let me tell you, got some good food. The podcast is not sponsored by Costco, although we mention Costco all the time. I love the roasted chicken. For like five bucks, you get a roasted chicken.

You know, Sherry and I make like three meals out of that. And then she does soup with kind of the scraps and everything. Oh, that's so the—and the $1.50 dog with a drink. You've got to love that, too. You've got to love it. I've also seen you throw down on the Costco margarita. You know, I'm kind of off of that. It's kind of sweet.

Dad, you're maturing in your taste. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm very mature. Very mature. Well, I mean, when you first started drinking, you were doing the Mike's Hard Lemonades and the Costco Margaritas, which is more of the, you know, 19-year-old. I am a 19-year-old. I'm very young. Are you trying to catch a predator in me right now?

I will not be fooled. Let's see here. You're going to have to get a sponsorship from Costco. They owe us so much money. None of these people had heard of Costco before we started talking. No, it's a brand new deal. True Crime and Chill wants to know, DP, I'm thinking of uprooting my very good life in Arizona and moving to Tennessee. That would include new jobs and starting retirement over. Best dad advice,

I'm 35 and have been saving 15%. Well, she didn't have to start retirement over. Yeah, that's... I wouldn't think, unless you're in some kind of system that you have to leave everything you've gotten to that point. Usually the money you have in a 401k or something is transferable, or you can even leave it with the other company. So not knowing a lot of the details, I'd say go for it if it's a good move for you and your family and don't let the retirement thing be a burden to you. Although if you have to walk away from a ton of money, figure out a way to make that work if you can, even if it would be – if it would mean like if you're not vested walking back, want to do, nine times out of ten, you ought to be able to do that and have it not negatively impact your retirement. I'd say go for it. Don't sacrifice your short-term well-being for, you know, like staying in a job you don't like, staying in a city you don't like. Life's too short.

Yeah, I agree. All right. With that, shall we move on to Supreme Court inductions? Let me pull up the Supreme Court inductions. All right. This week, we are reading your names and favorite books. And to get inducted onto this podcast, you just sign up on our Patreon at the $7 level. Patrick Ness. Brandon Michael. In Cold Blood by Truman Capote. Michelle, a.k.a. Anastasia Beaverhausen.

Sounds made up. I'm not sure about that. Any Book by Philippa Gregory. Lauren. The Stephanie Plum Series. Sarah Morton. Know My Name, a memoir by Chanel Miller. Adele.

The Redemption of Athelos by David and Lee Eddings. Hilda Rohr Thiessen. Anything by John Green. Amber Peterson. A Million Little Pieces by James Frey. Hazel Sommer. Girl on a Train. Emily Berngard.

The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger. Carrie Marshall. Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. Justin Sir Big Booty should be capitalized, and it's not capitalized here. Yeah. It should be. Sir Big Booty, please respect yourself enough to capitalize. Brittany Cook.

Random by Tom Levine. David Llewellyn. American Gods by Neil Gaiman. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Guys, thank you so much for listening. This was so nice. And, Dad, thank you for being on the podcast. I am happy to be on the podcast.

I'm looking forward to next week. And who's that lady that gave up the podcast? I don't know. I don't know what happened to her. Yeah. She was kind of fun, but— Kind of. Hey, she's gone,. Yeah. She was kind of fun, but— Kind of.

Hey, she's gone, so sorry. She was—yeah, she— I hope the listeners aren't going to miss her. I know I won't. No, I miss Brandy so much. I was telling Norm, I was all sad today. Wait a minute. I'm coming over?

Okay, I wasn't sad because you were coming over. I'm just sad because I miss my friends. Yeah, we miss Brandy. We miss Brandy. Brandy, we're teasing. I don't own 100% of the podcast. That was a lie. We want you back on the podcast.

The listeners want you back. Yeah, for sure. I am way too lazy to do this podcast on a weekly basis. In fact, Kristen and I had that great idea for a podcast where you ask an old white guy. You had that great idea. I'm too lazy to do it. You wanted to do a podcast called Ask an Old White Guy, where people would write in with questions for you, which I feel like in the year 2020, I mean, it's a touch too late for

that podcast, but who knows? Oh, it would be hilarious. I mean, it's tongue in cheek, so it would be hilarious. You'd make fun of my answers. We do this all the time. You make fun of my answers to questions when we talk. But would people want to listen to that? Oh, absolutely.

They're listening to this. There's that old white guy confidence. There we go. There's that charm. No, for real, Brandy, we miss you. We hope you're feeling better. Guys, the plan is next week Brandy will be back. If not, you might get another dose of me or the incomparable Kyla.

Kyla kicked butt last week. Kyla is quite good. I say you have some competition, sir. Oh, okay, okay. Well, hey, you know, she's got a full-time job raising two kids. I am basically sitting on my butt in a motorhome. Yeah, everyone knows. Doing a little hiking, a little biking, a little whatever I want.

And if I don't want to, I don't do it. Yeah, and may I add, so Kyla has a full-time job, two kids. I told her, hey, we record this day. She was prepared that day. Well, she's used to deadlines. She's got those jobs with deadlines. So, yeah, absolutely. Anyway, guys.

With me, time is on your side, Kristen. Okay. Don't rush it. Okay. You guys, find us on social media. We're on Twitter. We're on Facebook. We're on Reddit.

Brandy usually does this part. Please check out our new merch, lgtcpodcast.com. We ship very quickly. Ask me how I know. I do the shipping. And, yeah, don't forget to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. Podcast adjourned! from Mark Gribben's fantastic crime library article titled The Klaus von Bulo Case and

Wikipedia. And dad is noisily shuffling through his papers like an old man. The reason I'm noisily shuffling through my papers and have been concerned for a little while is I don't see my bibliography. I wonder why you kept flipping through that notebook. I was pretty sure it was here, but I read some really good articles and I watched a whole damn movie that was not that interesting on Leona Helmsley. So I apologize for dropping the ball on the big loud thing.

How about this? We will put your sources on lgtcpodcast.com. Please do. I will email those to you. And I apologize to the listeners for not being able to tell you about all these great sources I looked at. Are you going to read the last line of the outro? You don't even have it up, do you? I don't. Okay. Any errors are, of course, ours. Please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.