Let's Go To Court! - 145: The Kidnapping of Shannon Matthews & Eliza Jumel's Divorce

Episode Date: October 21, 2020

It was a cold February day, and mother of the year Karen Matthews was in a panic. Her nine-year-old daughter, Shannon Matthews, hadn’t come home from school that day. Immediately, the tightknit community of Dewsbury, England, came together to find the missing child. Investigators searched 3,000 homes. They stopped 1,500 drivers. But the days crept on. Shannon was nowhere to be found. Meanwhile, Karen acted like a big weirdo. Then Brandi returns from her battle with COVID to tell us about an old timey divorce.  Eliza Jumel was, too put it mildly, rich. When her husband died, Eliza became the richest woman in New York. By that point, Eliza had discovered that money could buy her a lot of things -- the former home of the American Revolution, for example -- but it couldn’t buy her acceptance from the upper crust of New York City society. For that, she needed to marry the right dude. So she set her sights on Aaron Burr.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: An episode of Casefile titled, “Shannon Matthews”  The documentary tv series, “Tears Lies and Videotape” “The Kidnapping of Shannon Matthews,” wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Invention” podcast episode, Lore by Aaron Mehnke “Long After Alexander Hamilton's Death, His Son and Rival Aaron Burr Dueled in Divorce Court” by Kirstin Fawcett, Mental Floss “The Life of Eliza Jumel” newyorkcityhistory.org “Burr’s Role In Adultery: Is It Opera?” by Dena Kleiman, The New York Times “Eliza Jumel” wikipedia.org

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the kidnapping of Shannon Matthews.

And I'll be talking about an old-timey divorce. Oh, just regular type? What does that mean? Just a standard divorce? It's a pretty standard divorce, actually. Well, boy, you really ph? Listen, this case is a shiny little gift to you. My case is a shiny little gift to you. Are you serious? Serious. Okay, mine really is. Mine really is too. Oh my God. First of all, Brandi, welcome back.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be back. You going to tell the people what happened? Oh, I got fucking COVID. Which was no big deal, right? Okay. When Donald Trump tweeted that COVID was no big deal, my head almost exploded. Can confirm.

It was terrible. I was super fucking sick. I still have like a little bit of lingering like chest stuff happening, but I'm COVID free. Like this stuff can last. That's the thing. You can be COVID free and have like the respiratory symptoms. They can last for months.

Yeah. Like it's not a no big deal thing. It's a big fucking deal. Yeah. That, it's not a no big deal thing. It's a big fucking deal. Yeah, that's, okay, that's one of the things I was hoping you would talk about is the fact that, like, okay, you have been sick before. You're not someone who's just, like, never been sick. Yeah. This was the sickest you've been in your entire life. Yes.

Absolutely, this should be taken seriously. 100%. Absolutely, people should be wearing masks. Yes. Good Lord. Wear a fucking mask. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

And thank you for putting up with how angry we are in our comedy podcast. I'm so excited to be back. I missed you so much. I missed you so much, too. And by you,

I mean each individual listener. Oh, I thought you were just talking to me. I was talking to you. You turned. Okay. I was talking to you. No, I really did miss just talking to me. I was talking to you. Turn. Okay. Jeez. I was talking to you.

No, I really did miss you a lot. I know. I missed you so much. Kyla and DP did so good, though. They did great. They both think they did better than you, so. I'm sure. No, my dad probably does think he did better.

That's fine. You can think that, DP. You can also think you're 100% owner of the podcast. Pshaw. Pshaw. Pshaw. Pshaw, pshaw is right. Guys, there's a new bonus episode out on Patreon right now. Is there?

We haven't recorded it yet. There might be a new post. If it's not out yet, it's coming soon. I mean, it will definitely be out within the next week. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

So if that's not a good plug, I don't know what is. And I can't tell you what it's about because I haven't written the episode yet. I haven't written mine either yet. Oh, it's going to be good, though.

It's going to be so good. We feel it in our bones. Best one yet. No, guys, head on over to Patreon if you're looking for more of us at the $5... You can see Kristen's tits there. No, guys, head on over to Patreon if you're looking for more of us. At the $5... You can see Kristen's tits there.

What if at the $5 level you got to see my tits? You know, okay. Wait, should we mention that this is an LGTC After Dark episode? They know, they know. You just applied BlizzTex like five seconds ago. My lips feel like they're sticking together. Yeah, but you just, here's the thing. You just applied it five seconds ago.

You know why you're having that problem? Because you don't use Carmex, which is the superior. No. Blistex all the way. No. You guys, we're both holding. We're literally holding them up right now. I have to tell you that I converted David to Blistex all the way. No. You guys, we're both holding. We're literally holding him up right now. I have to tell you that I converted David to Blistex.

He's been all Carmex all the way. And then I had him get me some fresh Blistex because I felt like mine was kind of separating and it just wasn't good anymore. And then I had him. Inferior product. He was complaining about his lips. And I was like, put some Blistex on. And he was like, no, I've got Carmex. I was like, put the fucking Blistex on.

I bullied him until he put it on. And then he said, my gosh, my lips feel amazing. Do you know why that happened? Why? Because he's just a young, impressionable boy. Stop it! And you're a super cougar, and you're just like bossing him around. No, guys, at the $5 level, you can see pictures of Brandy's tits.

At the $7 level, you see mine. Can you imagine? No, don't worry. You don't have to see anybody's tits. You don't have to see either of our tits. That's our guarantee to you, dear listener. Well, if you pay us $5 a month or $7 a month, we'll never force you to look at our tits. That's some weird form of extortion or something.

distortion or something. No, guys, at the $5 level, you get a monthly bonus episode, and you get into the Discord, which is our 90s-style chat room. At the $7 level, you get all that, plus a monthly bonus video. I'm sorry. What? I'm faking. You guys,

I tried to record a bonus episode on my own this month, which I've done before, like when you had London, I did a fun little video where I made you a bunch of food and took it over. And I was like, well, you know, you've got COVID. I'll do the same thing. I'll do a bunch of food, take it over. Turns out the vibe when you're doing a video about taking food to your very sick friend is a lot different. Way, a big downer.

I got in a fight with Norm on camera, and then I cried. And so that video will not be being released. So anyway. Stay tuned on what the bonus video is going to be. Yeah, and there's other stuff. But at the $10 level, this is the longest plug ever. I don't think anybody's listening anymore. They found out that they thought they were all going to have to be forced to look at this. We're like, no, stay tuned.

$10 level. You get episodes a day early, ad-free, and you get 10% off on our brand spanking new merch. That's right. And you can find that merch at, Kristen, don't think I didn't notice that you didn't know our website name when you first tried to hawk our merch. I thought that our store had a slightly different. Okay, but we have the Geek Squad, a.k.a. Norm, working behind the scenes. So all you have to do is go to lgtcpodcast.com. It's true.

It's true, guys. Get your stickers. Get your tits pictures. Get your t-shirts. There is a picture of your tits on there because you're modeling a shirt. Yeah, in a way there is. Yes. That's right.

They just have a shirt over it. Don't worry, guys. They're covered. You got a tarp over them real good. Oh, man. Should we do this thing? I think we shall. Excellent.

I get to go first. That's fine. I'm just, I got my drank. Got my drank. And my two-step. Is that a song? Yeah, my drank and my two-step. My drank and my two-step.

It's on. It's on. It's on. You don't know that song? No. Wow. COVID really ate away at your brain, huh? Changed me.

All right. First of all, shout out to my life, my love and my lady, David, for recommending this case. Much of this information comes from an episode of Aaron Manke's amazing podcast, Lore. So David listened to that episode, and he was like, holy shit, you have to do this game. And so then I listened to it, and it is, it's very exciting. Very minimal court stuff. I was able to dig up some extra stuff.

What the hell are you, Kyla? You're going to love this, Kristen. I don't know. And by the way, I have to say, I am sick and tired of people coming on this podcast and talking about other better podcasts. Yeah, Laura's really a great podcast. We need to trick all our listeners. Anything Erin Mankey touches is great.

Yeah, we need to trick all the listeners into thinking we're the only podcast. We're the only option for you. I don't think that's a thing. Do I sound like an abusive dude? You'll be back. I was about to make a Hamilton reference. I don't think that's a thing. Damn it. Do I sound like an abusive dude? You'll be back. I was about to make a Hamilton reference. I'm missing. David bought me a new sticker for my water bottle.

Bottle. My water bottle. And it says awesome. Wow. It's got King George on it. Okay. I like that. Anyway. Old timey disclaimer upon old-timey disclaimer here. This case is kind of a mess when it comes to contradictions.

Okay. But I'll tell you a little bit about why that is. All right. Like, starting right now. With the old-timey disclaimer. Okay, so the story of Elizabeth Betsy Bowen's life has been told and twisted and exaggerated and retold. And such a yarn has been woven that historians aren't really sure what the truth is anymore. There are those that believe that she was born in a poor house in Providence, Rhode Island, and then was adopted by a slightly less poor family.

And then there are those who believe that she was born aboard a merchant ship crossing the Atlantic. That sounds terrible. And that her well-respected parents settled in Rhode Island following their arrival in America. This seems to be the story, kind of her origin story, that she told later in life. kind of her origin story that she told later in life. But the most agreed upon version is that Betsy Bowen was born in either 1773 or 1775 in the busiest brothel in Providence, where her very young mother had worked for five years. Worth noting, I feel like that this was like the most

well-known busiest brothel in all of Providence. And it was run by a black madam. Cool. She was, like, doing her thing. Okay. I love it. And so some sources say that Betsy actually, like, grew up in the brothel and went to work there when she became of a certain age. And maybe even birthed an illegitimate son

there. But that seems pretty sketchy and almost more of like a tall tale than fact. And no one, of course, will ever really know. But at some point, her mother married and relocated to North Carolina. And that's kind of what they know of her early days. What's known for sure during that time in her life is that young Betsy knew she wanted to transform her life. She longed to be somebody, somebody who belonged. And what we know of Betsy's life as a young girl or a young woman in Providence is that there wasn't much emphasis on education and likely Betsy could not read or write. But some time passed and she kind of

appeared in New York City around 1797. And all of a sudden she was well-read, she spoke eloquently, and she was even conversationally versed in French. Around that same time, she began going by the name Madame Delacroix. Though she hadn't married, she was actually the mistress of a Mr. Peter Delacroix, who was some kind of French sea captain. And it was widely known that the two were a couple, and they may have even lived together at the time, though that would have been very much frowned upon. I'm scandalized right now.

Right, exactly. But it's reported that they lived in, like, this wooden bungalow, wooden cabin of some sort, basically right where the Empire State Building is now. Wow. Wow. Yes. It's very likely that Peter is the one who taught Betsy French and that he even took her to France a time or two as, you know, some kind of sea captain. And that that's likely where she picked up her obsession with France and that obsession she would carry on for the rest of her

life. Sadly, Madame Delacroix would never become Betsy's actual name as Peter died before they ever had a chance to marry. Following his death, Betsy kind of refocused her life. She wanted to create this life for herself, the one she'd always dreamed of, and she went to work reinventing herself. Shortly after Peter's death, Betsy Bowen showed up on the New York City entertainment scene. Only she wasn't Betsy Bowen anymore. Now she was Eliza Brown. Brown was a nod to her birth name. Bowen is kind of like a fancier version.

And then Eliza was like the high society version of her birth name, Elizabeth. I do like that name. I do too. Eliza Brown was worldly and eloquent and beautiful. And she quickly found work in the theater as a performer. Though mostly she did like bit parts or worked as an extra. And while she seemed to be climbing the social ladder as a result of the connections the theater afforded her, there are stories of how her past managed to track her down.

One such story recounts how she was performing in a show one night and there happened to be a group of men in the audience from Providence who recognized her as the, quote, tart of the dockyards. And they started hooting and whistling at her. Oh. Yeah. F-off. Yeah, it sucks. I don't know why I couldn't say fuck.

Trying to class it up, huh? Trying to class it up. Trying to be an Eliza. You're talking about lore and I'm up, huh? Trying to class it up. Trying to be an Eliza. You're talking about lore, and I'm like, what? It seemed she might never be able to escape the past that she so desperately wanted to rise above. But Eliza had her sights set on what she wanted, and she wasn't going to let a few men in the audience shake her focus. So she continued working in the theater. And sometime around 1800, she met a wealthy wine merchant named Stephen Jumel.

Eliza was approximately 27 at this time, while Stephen was 52, maybe? You want to describe your face there, Kristen? Beautiful. Supermodel quality. With a podcaster's voice. Despite this small age gap, the two fell in love, and after four years of courting, the two married. Four years. Four years. That's a long time.

Yeah. No kidding. Back in the day. Yeah. So after four years of courting, the two were married and Eliza became Madam Eliza Jumel. That is fancy. That's one version anyway. Another version of their courtship.

Don't give me this look like you got something up your sleeve. Another version of their courtship says that Stephen was happy to live in sin with young, beautiful Eliza, but had no real interest in marriage. But that Eliza came down with a serious illness and on her deathbed, her dying wish was to marry Stephen. So he obliged. And wouldn't you know it, as soon as they were hitched, Eliza felt much better. And wouldn't you know it, as soon as they were hitched, Eliza felt much better. You know, okay, I'm going to go with that version because four years of courtship in that time? Yeah.

That dude did not want to marry her. I agree. Yeah. I fully support her in this. Whichever version of the truth, it doesn't really matter. What we know for sure is that Eliza and Stephen married in 1804. And while the two had plenty of wealth, they didn't have the social status that they both yearned for. So Stephen Jumel was born in Haiti. And he had actually changed his name to sound more noble. And he had worked his entire life to build this fortune that he now had.

He was some kind of wine merchant, and he'd found a loophole or something where he was able to bring French wine into the United States despite this trade embargo that President Thomas Jefferson had in place. Ooh. Yeah. So it had made him a fortune. But both Stephen and Eliza wanted to be in with the cool kids. And it seemed like no amount of money could buy them that status because they weren't

born at that level. Money can't buy you class, Brandi. That's right. What it could buy them was a really fucking fancy house. Yeah. And maybe... Is it still standing? It is. Oh, Brandy! Oh my god. Wait for it.

Okay. And maybe if that house happened to be of historical significance, that would be the ticket to kind of getting their foot in the door to the social circles. Sure. In which they so long to be a part of.

So in 1810, the Jumels bought a mansion known as Mount Morris. It was in New York City, near Harlem Heights. You can look up the house if you want. Mount? Mount Morris.

I'm not really finding it. Okay, look up the Morris Jumel. Mount? Mount Morris. I'm not really finding. Okay, look up the Morris Jumel Mansion. That's what it's called now. Okay. Okay, that's popping up. Ooh. So the mansion was built in 1765 by British Colonel Roger Morris. He and his family lived there for some time, but in 1776, the Morrises fled back to England

and General George Washington used Mount Morris to plan his first victory, the Battle of Harlem Heights. Oh, my God, Brandi, we've got to go there. I know. Shortly after the victory, though, Washington and his men moved on. You know, the battlefields changed and the home was taken over by Hessian soldiers. Do you know what Hessian soldiers are? No. So Hessian soldiers are German mercenaries that were hired by the British to boost their troop numbers.

Oh. So when they brought them over, they kind of took over this home. But after the war was won and the world was turned upside down, the house came back under U.S. control, and George Washington found use for it again, this time as president of our very new nation. He held his very first cabinet meeting. A cabinet meeting! You could have been anywhere in the world tonight, but you're here. There are 12 people who haven't seen Hamilton.

I know. And they're like, what? They seem excited. So this house is still there to this day. You can tour it. It's got a really rich history, which I'll go into a little bit more. But I want to go there. Brandi, how could you do this?

Bring up this place that we have to go to during COVID times. So the Jumels bought Mount Morris in an effort to move up the social ladder. Yeah. And while it didn't really have their desired effect, the mansion is to this day known as the Morris Jumel Mansion. So by the 1810s, the Jumels were spending most of their time in France. Like I mentioned, Eliza was obsessed with France. She loved it. She was very into like Napoleonic furniture and stuff like that.

And over there, their extreme wealth allowed them into the most elite social circles. So much so that they were rubbing elbows with Napoleon himself. Holy. But then that whole disastrous kind of French invasion of Russia thing happened. Oopsies. It was no longer cool to be friends with Napoleon. So they couldn't brag about that anymore. They were so close to Napoleon.

How close were they? They actually offered him asylum at their home in America. Whoa. And offered to sneak him on one of their ships, whatever. He politely declined, but he did, as a gesture to thank them for their offer of generosity, he gifted them his own personal carriage. Oh, wow. However, this gift kind of backfired for the Jumels

because one day they were like riding in it, leaving Paris, I think, and officers recognized the Napoleonic symbols on the carriage, and the Jumels were arrested and thrown in jail on suspicion of, I don't really know what, treason maybe, I'm not really sure. Anyway, the whole thing was a huge fucking mess,

and it required intervention from the United States ambassador to France in order to straighten the whole thing out. Shortly after that, Eliza— Who was the ambassador to France at that point? It wasn't Thomas Jefferson. I don't know who it was. He wasn't kicking ass as the ambassador to France? It was not. Okay.

I believe—well, yeah, because he'd already been president at that point. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So shortly after that, Eliza and Stephen got into some kind of argument. And Eliza boarded one of Stephen's merchant ships alone and headed back to the United States. They would spend the better part of the next decade living apart. Though historians' opinions really differ on whether or not they were estranged. So some historians cite letters between the two saying that they demonstrated a very

romantic and loving relationship with each other, but they read as if they were both afraid that the other would abandon them. While others say that the two rarely spoke except to do business during this time where they were living apart. Well, do they have the letters or not? I mean, what's... I don't know. Brandy, why don't you know? So what I do know is that while Eliza Jumel was back in the United States, she had power of attorney over Stephen's American assets.

And she managed them really well. And she grew the couple's fortune. She also slowly began transferring most of his assets into her name. But that was like for business purposes. For sure. You know. I respect that. In the meantime, Stephen was over in France managing their French assets and he was not doing well. So the French economy was not doing great

following Napoleon's surrender. And Stephen wrote to Eliza regularly asking for her to send funds. But Eliza brushed him off saying, you know, hey, it's not the right time to liquidate any of our assets. And, you know, if you can just hold out a little longer, we'll make a much better return on our investment, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. In 1827, Stephen finally returned to New York because he had been unable to rebound financially in France. because he had been unable to rebound financially in France. And Eliza was still refusing to send funds. His health was also reportedly failing by this point, because he was like 1,000 years older than Eliza. I was going to say, he was 112 in those days.

But when he returned to New York, his marriage was reportedly pretty rocky when he found out that Eliza had conveniently transferred most of his assets into her name. Yes. But he couldn't be too mad because she'd managed to grow his already sizable wealth into a great fortune. Mm-hmm. Things between the couple were good enough, I guess. But in 1832, Stephen Jamel was involved in a freak accident. Oh, no.

So what had happened was he fell out of a hay cart and landed on a pitchfork. Oh. And he was injured real, real bad. Uh-huh. And he was just, like, kind of laying in bed trying to recover from his puncture wounds when Eliza visited him, and as legend has it, she kindly removed all of his bandages and he bled to death. That's the legend.

Oh. Who knows if it's true. Well, were these the days when they were doing bloodletting and all kinds of that bullshit? Maybe she thought she was helping? Okay. Am I like bending over backwards to see her point of view? Okay. Okay.

Following Stephen's death, Eliza inherited the portion of his fortune that had remained in his name. And with that, Eliza Jumel became the richest woman in America. Oh, this is cool. Yeah. This is cool. Even still, as the richest woman in America and all of that, Eliza still hadn't achieved the social status that she'd yearned for. And so a few months after Stephen died, she started looking for a new husband.

This one didn't need to be rich. She had that covered. Yep. He just needed to be powerful. And it wasn't long before she set her sights on the perfect candidate. He was one of the nation's best attorneys. and he'd held one of the government's highest positions. He had the right connections.

Brandy. And the right kind of power. Are you serious? And so in 1833. She married Aaron Burr? Eliza Jumel married Aaron Burr. No! What?

What? What? Yes! Oh my God, this is a gift. Age gap alert. Brandy, I'm so excited. I know.

By this time, Eliza was approximately 58. And Aaron Burr How old? Was 77. Ooh. Ooh. He's an old boy.

Okay. Pause from this story real quick. Okay. I've got a real age gap alert for you. Do you know who Catherine McPhee is? She's like a former American Idol contestant, went on to be kind of like a mid-level actress on TV shows. 36 years old. Okay.

Married to a 70-year-old music producer. Oh, no. And pregnant with his baby. No, absolutely not. No thanks. And this guy, this music producer, had a kid when he was 20, so he has a 50-year-old daughter. Yeah, that's disgusting. And that poor daughter is, like, vomiting as we speak.

Wow. 36 and 70. That's nasty. That's pretty gross. Anyway, back to this story. Yeah. So, Eliza marries Aaron Burr. And Eliza 100% married him for his connections. And Aaron Burr married Eliza for her wealth.

See, I don't see anything wrong with this. So as long as they're both entering with eyes wide open. Yeah. So essentially, following his fall from grace with the whole Hamilton duel, and then being tried for treason and all that, Aaron Burr was essentially flat broke. for treason and all that. Aaron Burr was essentially flat broke. But Burr's connections moved Eliza forward a little bit socially, not to the level that she had hoped it would. But Aaron Burr came up against roadblock after roadblock when he was trying to get his hands on Eliza's fortune.

Because Eliza was a hell of a businesswoman and had set things up in a manner that made the majority of her assets untouchable by her new husband. Wow. Yeah. Holy shit. But within like four months of when they got married, Eliza became aware that Burr was blowing through her liquid assets. And she took him to court to try and get an injunction to further block his access to her fortune. Whoa. So this stretched on for a few months. Talk about a serious public scandal.

Yes, absolutely. But I didn't know this, but there was a period where Aaron Bursar, going by a different name, he had so much shame upon him after the treason scandal and all of that. I looked into it briefly after I saw Hamilton for the first time. Yes. Yeah, I obviously didn't memorize any names, clearly. And so there's this whole thing going on. She's trying to get this injunction against him to keep him from touching her money.

And ultimately, she just decides to file for divorce. But at this time, you had to be able to prove adultery to be granted a divorce. Oh, my God. So this was going to be a fight. She knew it was going to be really tough to prove it, though she did believe that he'd been unfaithful. These proceedings would stretch on for two years. Eliza knew that she had to get herself the best attorney that money could buy. And she did. And when he walked into the courtroom, I guarantee you Aaron Burr shat in his pants because Eliza

Jumel hired herself, Alexander Hamilton Jr. to represent her in their divorce. Oh, what a power move. No shit. What a power move. So he had made this huge name for him. He was one of the nation's best attorneys at this time. He'd gone off and fought in the War of 1812. He'd gone off and fought in the War of 1812.

He'd come back. He'd followed in his father's footsteps and graduated with his law degree or whatever. Oh, my gosh. He was a huge deal. He was also super successful in real estate. He was like a real estate tycoon. He owned all kinds of property around New York City. Yeah. He was a big deal.

City. Yeah. He was a big deal. So this trial would be kind of nasty based on just the names involved alone. And Eliza had to prove adultery to get this divorce granted. Okay. I can tell you how you do this. How do you do it? Hire some hottie to go seduce your awful husband. Okay, I can tell you how you do this. How do you do it? Hire some hottie to go seduce your awful husband. Oh, that's a good idea. Thank you. That's a really good idea. So, that isn't what they do here, but they do have a star witness. Okay.

So, Alexander Hamilton Jr. presents this case. The trial started on July 1st, 1835, and he says, you know, we will prove to you that Aaron Burr has been unfaithful. And Aaron Burr is obviously representing himself, and he 1835. And he says, you know, we will prove to you that Aaron Burr has been unfaithful. And Aaron Burr is obviously representing himself. And he gets up there and he says, she cheated too. That's his defense. She was adulterous too. Really?

Yeah. So, Eliza. That's a terrible defense to admit that you were. I know. I know. So, Eliza contended that her husband had been, quote, in the habit of committing adultery at diverse times with diverse females, which is kind of an old timey phrase, but it means he was banging everybody. Diverse times? Diverse times. Oh, I thought you

were being weird. No. So I looked it up. It is an old timey word that just means like all the fucking time. Okay. Okay. So constantly. Constantly banging other women and it didn't matter who they were. Okay. And they named one of the women specifically. Her name was Jane McManus.

According to the court records, there was a witness to this relationship. This would be Alexander Hamilton Jr.'s star witness. She was a servant in Eliza Jumel and Aaron Burr's home. Her name was Maria Johnson. And on March 17, 1836, she took the stand and talked about everything that she'd seen Aaron Burr do. She said at one time she saw this woman, Miss McManus, Jane McManus, sitting on Aaron Burr and he had his trousers all down. Well, I mean, what more do we need, right?

So they continued to question her about how she'd seen this or whatever. She said she was out and, like, got up on the shed and looked in through the window blinds. Oh, she was peeping. Yeah. She said, I sat down on my hunkies and turned the blind and looked in. Alexander Hamilton Jr. asked Miss Johnson how close Aaron Burr and Miss McManus were together. And she replied, about as close as they could get together. And I looked at them until they got through with their mean act. Whoa. She's pretty high and mighty for a lady who was watching two people bang.

Yeah. She also testified that on another occasion, a Sunday, she had watched Aaron Burr and Miss McManus again. And this time she was caught watching them. And Aaron Burr had given her a new pair of shoes, not to tell. But she was pissed because it was Sunday. She said on the stand, she said, I did tell and will tell and always meant to tell because I was ready to go to church. And he gave me orders to go to Bear Market and get oysters for Jane McManus's dinner. Whoa. Yeah.

So she's like, yeah, I caught them banging and he tried to pay me off. I may have taken the shoes, but I always plan to tell. And I got this sweet new pair of shoes. That's right. So what's really interesting about, like, this trial testimony is these court record was sealed until, like, the, like, 1970s or something like that. Wow. When this guy filed to get them unsealed because he was considering writing an opera

about Aaron Burr. Well, I mean, yeah. Yeah. So Aaron Burr's argument was not great. So this thing had dragged on for so long. He had gotten old. I mean, he's... He was already old.

I know, he's like 80 now. He's in really bad health. He has a stroke in the middle of the trial. And basically that becomes his defense. He says, I'm too old to have sex. I couldn't have committed adultery. Okay. But the maid's testimony was way too damning.

Yeah. And Eliza Jumel was granted her divorce on September 14th, 1836. Aaron Burr was apparently so shamed by the fact that she was granted the divorce, he died that same day. Whoa. He died the day the divorce was finalized. You love this stuff. I do. Poetic.

Poetic. Eliza Jemels, the rest of her life was kind of quiet. She traveled a lot and spent her fortune. She had a couple of adopted children

who, there's some confusion if they are, what's generally kind of agreed upon is that they were probably one of her young siblings' illegitimate children. And she adopted them and cared for them as if they were her own children.

Eventually, she suffered from dementia and she started telling lots of tall tales about her life, which is why no one really knows that much about her origin because she told all of these different crazy stories. One thing that she stopped doing as she got older was staying at the Morris Jumel Mansion because she believed it was haunted. By Aaron Burr? No, by the Hessian soldiers. Really? Yes.

So this is actually something that had been talked about long before she ever bought it. They used it as a bargaining chip when they bought the mansion as a way to bring the price down. Because there was all of this tall tale about it being haunted. But she kind of brushed it off and used it as a way to get a better price on it. But then she believed it. She'd say that there were Hessian soldiers who walked the halls at night, and so she stopped staying there on her own. But she kept the home.

Eventually she died, obviously, at like age 90. Wow. Yeah. And then there became this huge controversy over her estate. All of these people came out of the woodwork and said that they were her children and whatever. There was like a 17-year court case that dragged on, like this crazy probate stuff, to try and anybody got their hands on. This is where all these tall tales came from. There were rumors that came out that she was the illegitimate child of George Washington.

Oh, God. Oh, my gosh. All kinds of crazy stories. Eventually, it was settled. The home became a public landmark or whatever. In the 1920s, the DAR, the Daughters of the American Revolution, tried to strip her name from the mansion because of her colorful past, less than virtuous reputation. Oh, fuck off. Yes.

They were unsuccessful. Yeah. There are all kinds of stories about how people believe that the Morris Jumel Mansion is haunted. There's this one really well-known story that in the mid-1960s, like a field trip was there touring the home. And there was like a bunch of kids out like in front of the house. And they're, you know, doing what kids do, making all kinds of noise. And a woman opened the door on the balcony above the front door and came out and yelled at them and told them to be quiet, that her husband was sleeping, and that he didn't feel well. And so the kids went on the tour, and they asked the tour guide about it, and they're like, no, no one is here. We're the only ones here. And that

door is padlocked. And then the kids saw a painting of the woman that they had seen. And it was Eliza Jumel. I love these stories. Yeah. So maybe she haunts the house to this day. We have to go. I want to go there so bad. What if we were outside and a lady came out and said stop laughing? Yes, you would. That's what she'd say to me for sure. Do you remember that time we toured that haunted place and the guy thought we were drunk? Yes, he did just because we were laughing so hard. That tour was terrible.

Yeah, joke's on him. He sucked. It was cold outside and they opened a balcony door and said that there were cold spots there. He was also a Confederate sympathizer. He was. He was. So anyway, that's my gift to you. I loved it.

A story of an old timey divorce and now we have to go to New York City and visit this home. Oh my God. I would be so excited. Brandy, Aaron Burr. Aaron Burr. What a fucking mess. Yeah. I just love that his defense turned out to be like, listen, I'm fucking old.

I can't fuck bitches and get money. Well, it started out as. Yeah. Her too. Yeah. But then it stretched out so long, he got too old, he couldn't argue with that anymore. Poor Aaron Burr. Nah. Yeah. Her too. Yeah. But then it stretched out so long he got too old he couldn't argue with that anymore. Poor Aaron Burr. Nah. Nah.

Nah. Okay, Brandy. I gave you your gift. First of all, you know this story, don't you? No. You truly don't? I don't think so. You're not just playing along? No, I'm really not. I mean, not based on the name, I don't know. Maybe once you get into the details.

What if I say England? Nope. Oh, you're actually like... What if I say France? What? If I say Shannon Matthews England... No, that does nothing for me. Okay, all right.

Calm down. Jeez. All right. Thank you to Riny Lou in the Discord for suggesting this case. Also, international case disclaimer, which you might be hearing that and going, like Brandy did. But, you know, just so you know, international case. Also, I watched this thing on YouTube. It's obviously some kind of British, like, documentary-style TV show.

And I couldn't exactly figure out the name of it. I think the name of it was Tears, Lies, and Videotape. Oh. Singular, because it's British. Yeah. Also. They don't use S's? Never.

You can have one of everything. Well, don't you think we would say videotapes? No. We wouldn't? No. I don't know. we would say videotapes? No. We wouldn't? No. I don't know. Everybody weigh in, please. Also, a fantastic episode of the podcast Case File.

Stop talking about other podcasts on here, Kristen. Oh, it's a terrible podcast. Don't check it out. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. It was very, very helpful. Yeah, they have an episode just titled Shannon Matthews. It's very good.

Check it out. Or don't because we're the only podcast for you. You yelled at me about bringing up a podcast. I only did that because I knew I was going to mention one. Hmm. Hmm. It was Tuesday, February 19th, 2008, about 4 p.m., and mother of the year, Karen Matthews, was frantic. She was just beside herself because, you see, her nine-year-old daughter, Shannon, should have been home from school at that point.

But she wasn't home. Maybe Shannon had stopped at a neighbor's house. That had to be it. Surely Shannon would be home any minute. Karen just had to take her mind off of things. So she went to the shops with her. That's a British thing. They call them the shops. And I think it just means like grocery store. It means any old thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not alarmed at that part. That's what she decided to do when her kid was missing. Well, imagine if London, you know, went missing. You'd probably be like, I just got to go to TJ Maxx and get some deals.

What if you really needed a bargain? No. So, yeah, she goes to the shops with her boyfriend's sister, thinking that Shannon would be back home by the time she got home. But they got back. And she wasn't fucking there because no one was looking for her. Well, you're jumping ahead, but yes. By this point, it was almost 7, and it was very cold.

So Karen called 999. Which is like British 911. That's right. And in an accent that sounded like every chimney sweep in Mary Poppins, Karen... Is it Cockney accent? Yes. British people don't all sound better than us. Just some of them.

Karen told... Are you going to do it? Later I will, and it's going to be terrible. So excited. It's going to be awful. This is a gift to me. So Karen told the dispatcher that her young daughter had not come home from school that day. It was all pretty sad and scary. And pretty soon.

You know, are you intentionally leading me to believe that the mother had something to do with this, Kristen? Why on earth would you say that? Investigators sprang into action. Uh-huh. You know, to make this whole thing a little more gut-wrenching, you should know that the night before, Karen had gotten into a big fight with Shannon. See, Karen had a rather hectic household. She had seven kids, and okay, truly no judgment on this, I'm just saying.

The kids were fathered by, according to some media accounts, five different dads. So it just wasn't a super stable home. And Shannon's dad, Leon, had ended things with Karen a long time ago. So Karen was now with this guy called Craig Meehan. I love how they say called instead of named. Whom she started dating when she was 28 and he was 18. Ugh! Hate it.

What's wrong? He needed a date to the prom. Yeah, exactly. It was an 18-year-old. Why is an 18-year-old boy banging a 28-year-old woman? I guess that's not, that would feel cool, I guess. I don't know, man. She's a 28-year-oldold with a whole shit ton of kids.

Yeah, it doesn't sound great to me. Shannon didn't get along with her stepfather. Because he was almost her same age. Yeah, right. And so the night before she disappeared, Shannon got into a fight with her mom and Craig, and then she ran down the street to her uncle's house. She wanted to spend the night there with her cousins, but her uncle, I mean, poor guy, just felt super awkward. He actually wouldn't have minded if Shannon stayed the night, but he was like, I don't want to get into this business with my sister. So, you know, he let Shannon hang out for a while, have fun, calm down, and then he was like, okay, now you need to go home.

He let Shannon hang out for a while, have fun, calm down, and then he was like, okay, now you need to go home. But that next morning, Shannon woke up, and she and her mom started fighting again. It was so bad that as little Shannon walked out the door for school that morning, her mom shouted to her, get out of the house and don't come back. Oh, shit. Those were the last words she said to her child. Cool. Before Shannon went missing. It's very cool, Brandy.

I'm glad you agree. Worth noting, Karen didn't tell anybody that these were the last words she said to Shannon. Or Sharon. But who could blame her for wanting to keep that to herself? Plus, there were more important things to worry about. Her daughter was missing. Where was Shannon? I don't know. Not at the shop.

She already checked there. Right. As soon as Karen called police, they and everyone in the local community just were on it. They were eager to help find this missing girl. were on it. They were eager to help find this missing girl. The Matthews lived in Dewsbury, which, as we all know, is located in West Yorkshire, England. Duh. Obviously. And we all know that it has a population of about 63,000 people. So it's not a huge place, and it's a blue-collar area. So people came out of the woodwork. Everyone put on a T-shirt that said, Have you seen Shannon Matthews on the front?

All 63,000 of them? You would not believe the number of T-shirts. I mean, they must have had a T-shirt print and shop in town, in Dewsbury, because, like, everyone had one of these shirts. And they had the number to ring on the back, which I find charming. This is a very sad story. I realize I'm telling it in kind of a weird way, but we'll get there. Shannon's school was only half a mile from her house, so clearly something bad had happened.

They made up all these big missing posters to hang all over town, and meanwhile investigators pieced together what they did know. They knew Shannon had gone to school that day. They knew that afterwards she got onto the bus and went swimming and then gotten back to school with her classmates, and something happened on the way home. Mm-hmm. What happened? A day went by.

Shannon was still missing. Oh, so you're just not going to tell us what happened on the way home from school? You think I'm not going to tell you? What would you do if I just told a totally different story? You did that before. Never. Yeah, you've done that once. Oh, yeah, I did.

I did. It was hilarious. You sure fucking did. That was hilarious. You sure fucking did. That was great. You dangled a case. Uh-huh. Yeah, a terrible case that only a freak would want to hear. And then you pulled it away.

That's right. They call me a case tease. That's what they call me. That's what you call yourself? No, it doesn't work when you try to make a nickname stick. Everybody calls you that. I'm sure. So a day went by, and Brandy kept her pants on, so, you know.

At this point, Karen came out of the house to address the media. And, of course, she looked terrible. She had these big bags under her eyes. It was clear she hadn't slept at all. And she said, It's going to be terrible. I had to listen to this audio multiple times to try to get it down. I couldn't even get a transcript of it because I don't think anyone else could understand this woman either. Here we go.

I'm going to do my best. She sounds, okay, like the chimney sweeps from Mary Poppins. But also. Got one on my leg. Also sounds, okay, like the chimney sweeps from Mary Poppins, but also. Familiar. Got one on my leg. Also, fat bastard from Austin Powers. Excellent. So he's Scottish.

I know. I'm just saying that's how it sounds to me. Okay. Shannon, if you're out there, please, darling, come home. We love you so much. Me and your dad, your brothers, your sisters, everybody loves you. Your dad's... Your dad's missing you so much, Shannon.

He's even looking for you. He's even looking for you! Please come home, Shannon. If you're out there, please come home. If anybody's got my daughter, my beautiful princess daughter, please bring us home safe. I'm sorry. Okay, I thought that part was weird, too, which is like even your dad's looking for. It's like, man, talk about the least he could do.

I'll get into this in a little bit. Shannon and her dad had not seen each other in the last six months. I don't know how much he was in the picture. Even he's out looking for you. Even your dad is out looking for you. Worth noting, she didn't shed a tear during this entire speech. But there's no right way to grieve so everybody shut up

I think and it could be just your version of the accent that she sounds like the mom in Titanic that's telling her poor little kids they're about to die about Lincoln and nod now I'll admit my impression is terrible but also Now, I'll admit my impression is terrible. But also, this woman's accent is terrible, too.

So maybe it's not so bad. People felt so bad for Karen. But things were a little weird. A journalist was interviewing her, and he just couldn't shake the feeling that Karen was acting real weird for a mother whose child had gone missing. As he was talking to Karen, Shannon's face appeared on a TV screen. I guess they were in the living room or something. And Karen said, without emotion,

Oh, there's Shannon. She's famous. Oh, that's weird. Yeah, that's exactly. She's famous. Oh, that's weird. Yeah, that's exactly what the journalist thought. He's like, um, I mean, Shannon's not famous. She's missing. And I mean, not to state the obvious,

but probably a victim of something really terrible, right? Right. But the theme of this story is ignoring red flags. So let's do some of that, okay? Neighbors also noticed strange behavior. When the cameras were around, Karen was, oh, so sad. But when they weren't, she was pretty okay. At one point, she went to the local pub and ordered some fish and chips.

She went to pay, and the person behind the counter was like, oh, no, no, no, don't worry about it. And then she realized how much money she could make off of this. No, then she made some hilarious joke like, oh, maybe my kids should go missing more often or something like that. Oh, God. A little weird, huh? Yeah. Again, no right or wrong way to grieve, but this seems like the wrong way.

Everyone just chalked it up to nerves. And, you know, none of them had had a kid go missing, so they were like, I mean, who are we to say what's right and wrong? Who are we to say? A week went by. Police were searching everywhere. They questioned 1,500 people who were out driving nearby.

They searched 3,000 houses. As the days ticked by, more and more people got assigned to the case, and at one point, 250 police officers were on the case, and 60 detectives were on the case, and at one point, 250 police officers were on the case, and 60 detectives were on the case. And in the entire UK, there are only 27 victim recovery dogs, Brandy, but 16 of those good boys were sent to look for Shannon Matthews. The goodest boys. The goodest boys of them all. The newspaper The Sun offered a 20,000 pound reward for anyone who could provide information that would lead to Shannon. There was a lot of interest in this case because Shannon was a missing white girl.

But despite all this effort, two weeks went by and Shannon was just nowhere to be found. was just nowhere to be found. One super interesting thing about this is that Madeline McCann had gone missing about a year earlier. And for those who don't know about this case, welcome to true crime. Madeline was this adorable blonde three-year-old whose parents were doctors

and they were vacationing in Portugal when Madeline went missing from their hotel room. Her disappearance was and is huge news. You followed it closely, I imagine. Yeah. You got any theories? Oh. Oh.

She does, but will she share them? You see the thing with the hidden garage, the underneath bunker, the guy. Oh, the guy who was, like, nearby? Mm-hmm. Not good. It's underneath the bunker, the guy. Oh, the guy who was, like, nearby? Mm-hmm. Not good. It's not good. So that case received a ton of attention, and a lot of people donated money to Madeline's fund. Mm-hmm.

So she set up a Shannon's fund. No. No. So Madeline's fund was a fund to help fund the search for Madeline, and it was well-funded. And I'm sorry for using fund that many times, but I got lazy. Oh, God. In fact, it was so well-funded. That the funding.

That when Shannon went missing, some of her family members reached out to the people in charge of Madeline's fund, and they asked if they would donate some of their money to the search for Shannon Matthews. It wasn't an unreasonable ask. The disappearance of Shannon Matthews got a lot of attention and donations, but people correctly pointed out that it didn't get nearly as much attention as the Madeline McCann case. And that was likely due to snobbery and classism. Oh. I mean, that's true. Yeah.

The McCanns were well-off, good-looking, well-spoken, and Karen Matthews, I'm sorry, wasn't. Not a looker? No. I mean, she wasn't well-off. She wasn't with Shannon's dad. In one of the interviews about her missing daughter, a BBC reporter asked her about the fact that she had seven children by five different fathers. Yeah. Not good. No.

Again, I'm going to say what I will about Karen, but no one needs to judge her for having children with multiple men. No. Especially when all the judgy people are the ones who are anti-choice, I feel like. But anyway, we'll probably have to cut that. To a whole different conversation for a second. How about I open up this can of worms?

So, there was classism afoot, which was not cool. But let's set that aside, because now we need to talk about straight up bad parenting, which is a lovely thing that can be found at any class level. Yeah, it's true. By the time Shannon went missing, a lot of people had been concerned about Karen's parenting skills. And they'd been concerned for a very long time. Wow. Karen's parents evidently had to step in and take care of some of the kids,

and Karen's boyfriend's family often got super frustrated with her because when they gave her money for diapers or food, the money almost never went to diapers or food. And as a result, there was hardly any food in the house for the kids, and sometimes the kids wore cut-up curtains as diapers, which a lot of people don't know this, but that is actually a deleted scene from The Sound of Music. That's it.

Was that terrible? What's terrible is how hilarious you think you are right now. I thought of that, and I was so happy. That was not really a funny story at all, is the thing. Serious time. Okay. At one point, the school, some neighbors, and some family members had all called social services to raise concerns about what was going on at Karen and Craig's house. With their curtains.

Yeah, they're like, we're seeing too much. Also, they're terrible parents. And maybe alcoholics. Shannon's teachers noticed that she came to school really dirty, kind of sluggish out of it. Social workers visited the house and became very concerned. They were like, there's a lot of alcohol abuse going on in this house. And Karen and Craig sometimes leave their kids alone at night. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, so around 2002, Karen's children were placed on the social services at-risk register. So my understanding is that this meant that Karen's parenting would be closely monitored for the rest of the kids' lives. But a year later, the kids came off the registry. Wow. Magically. How'd that happen? Oh, she became a much better parent all of a sudden. I don't think that's the way that worked. Oh, well, ye of little faith. Even though someone else came forward and said, hey, I'm concerned about these kids, social services evidently thought the kids were not at a big risk. They still checked in on Karen and Craig and the kids, but not as often, and they always called beforehand.

in on Karen and Craig and the kids, but not as often, and they always called beforehand. Shannon appears to have been pretty happy at school, but unhappy at home. So, bringing up her dad again. Shannon loved spending time with her dad and had actually written on the wall of her bedroom, I want to live with my dad. Yeah. So So most of her life she had regular contact with him, but about six months before she went missing, her dad, Leon, and Karen had some sort of argument about money, and yada, yada, yada, Shannon hadn't been able to see her dad. One source said that, like, Karen made it so he couldn't see her. Maybe I just don't know enough about these situations, but I kind of feel like.

She could make it really hard for him. Okay. Yeah, I think that that wouldn't be that unheard of. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm just saying we're going to shit on Karen a whole lot here. And part of me is like if a dad really wanted to see their kid, I just can't imagine not seeing your kid for six months.

Yeah. It just depends on what kind of legal stuff they had set up and— Are you saying I shouldn't just judge? Well, I'm just saying if they didn't have, like, a court-ordered custody agreement, it could be very easy for her to keep him away from the kids. Okay. And even if they had a court-ordered agreement, it takes a really long time to—it's not like if someone's not— You fuck up once and then, you know.

It's not like if somebody isn't following it, you call the police and they're like, oh, fucking hand the kid over. That's not how it works. You have to go back to court and tell a judge that they're not following it. It's a whole long drawn out process. So I think it could be very possible that she made it difficult for him to see his kid. Okay, Leon. Brandy to the rescue. Thank you, Brandy. So to sum this all up, there was a missing child and her mom was a complicated lady. But the general public didn't really know that.

And who cared that Karen was complicated? Her kid was missing. We needed to find Shannon. But days kept passing with no sight of her, and so the police did another press conference. Once again, Karen was center stage, but she looked better this time. She must have used some of that Johnson & Johnson no-tears shampoo because she was pretty chill for a mom whose daughter

was missing. That's a terrible joke! Nothing wards off tears, Kristen! Let me tell you something, her eye bags were gone, so she must have gotten herself a jade roller because she told the press.

She said, well, it's hard to sleep, really. It's just I don't feel the same with her not being there, really. Just feels empty. And then, again, real chill. Whoever's got Shannon, please let her go. Her family's missing her. Her friends are missing her at school. So she took some questions,

and she speculated that Shannon was probably with someone who knows her. And then that person probably knew her as well. So, you know, the whole thing was just, like, giving her some real trust issues, you know? What kind of weird speculation is that? It's just what she's spitballing just off the top of her head. Just a feeling. Just a feeling. What?

She did express a wee bit of emotion toward the end when she shared the last words Shannon had spoken to her. I love you, Mommy. Yeah. I'll see you at tea time to her. I love you, Mommy. Yeah. I'll see you at tea time, Mom. I love you. Mm-hmm. And then Karen held up one of Shannon's favorite teddy bears for the camera, and it was super awkward because she was a grown woman with community theater acting skills

holding a tiny little bear for a bunch of news cameras. Good. Speaking of awkward. theater acting skills, holding a tiny little bear for a bunch of news cameras. Go ahead. Speaking of awkward. Later, a journalist was supposed to meet up with Karen for an interview, and he showed up at her house, and no one was there, but the door was kind of open, so he stepped in, and he was looking around. What, did he catch her naked? And then, boo!

Karen jumped out from behind the door and started tickling him! What? Are you fucking kidding? I wish I was kidding. What? The dude was like, oh my god, this is the weirdest thing ever!

What? Meanwhile, you got any thoughts, Brandy? No, I can't. I have no idea under what circumstances a woman whose daughter is missing would play. How many strangers would you tickle if your daughter went missing? I'd tickle all the strangers to bring my daughter home. What if I told you that didn't have any impact on whether she came home? Meanwhile, investigators were working their asses off.

They'd barely had a chance to stop for tea and crumpets. They had no jolly good times, no time to watch the jelly, no time to sing God Save the Queen because they'd been talking to loads of people about this missing girl. Well, that's funny. It's how funny you think you are. I know. I know I'm being obnoxious. I'm sorry.

But then they caught a break. Investigators discovered that Karen and Craig had neglected to tell them about an uncle of Craig's. A guy named Michael Donovan. It was kind of funny. They'd given a super complete family tree and investigators had talked to almost everyone on it. Just left a whole branch off, huh? Guess so. This uncle, who lived super close by, had been forgotten.

Weird. Uh-huh. Probably just an oversight. I mean, hell, once in an interview, Karen forgot the number of children she had, so. I know. It's not great. So investigators started looking into this uncle and realized that not only had he been left off of the list, he'd also not attended any of the vigils or fundraisers or searches

for Shannon, which again seemed super fucking weird given the fact that everyone and their dog attended those vigils and he lived like a mile away. Did his dog come to it? Just his dog. Oh, look, you think you're funny now. Not allowed! Fun fact. Please don't let this prejudice you in any way.

A year earlier, he had been arrested for abducting his own daughter. Excellent. And that just gets accidentally left off the family tree, huh? Yeah, accidentally. That case had been dropped, but, you know, still just throwing it out there. Mm-hmm. but, you know, still just throwing it out there. So on March 14, 2008, 24 days after Shannon went missing,

investigators decided to pay our boy Michael a little visit. They went to his house and knock, knock, knocked, but no one answered. So they talked to the neighbors, and a neighbor was like, hmm, that's weird. I'm pretty sure he's home. I see his car right over there. He's not much of a walker. He drives everywhere. And another neighbor was like, huh, yeah, he should be home. By the way, I don't know if this is relevant. Stop me if you're bored. Stop me. But I've heard the footsteps of a child at his place lately. What the fuck are the footsteps of a child? You just hear little pitter patters.

His kids are all grown so it's obviously not his but I think maybe he's seeing a new lady friend so I just assumed it was her kid. Is this relevant? Is this helpful? Where'd you guys go? So the investigators dashed off and they ran around to Michael's place, and they boom, busted down the back door. Made entry into the home. I would never say that. That's a weird, weird way to say it. They boom, busted in the back door.

They started looking all over the place, all over the flat. They came across a locked door. Mm-hmm. And an officer, boom, made an entrance into the room.

Ha, ha, ha, ha. And they entered the empty-ish room. No one was in there. No, the door was locked? Yeah. But the sheets were warm. And then they heard the muffled sounds of a child crying. They heard a little girl say, stop it, you're frightening me. Oh my gosh. Okay, I can't really picture what this looks like,

but all the articles refer to this as a divan bed. But every time I look up a divan bed, it looks like a chaise lounge. Okay, so I'm thinking it's one of two things. Okay. Divan bed is either, like, a day bed or a couch that folds out into a bed. Okay, either one of these could work. I'm thinking kind of a day bed with, like, storage underneath. So the officers are standing over this divan bed, and the sounds had come from within the bed.

All of a sudden, Shannon crawled out from a storage area in the bed, and one of the officers just whisked her away to safety, and he asked her, hey, where is Michael? And she said, he's where I was. He's under the bed. So the other officers got on the floor and they looked down in the base of this divan bed and they found freaking Michael Donovan curled up in the fetal position hiding. He was surrounded by 600 pounds in money, not dumbbells,

some prescription insomnia medication. I just gave Kristen a deeply disapproving look. I'm sorry. Am I joking too much? No. No? Some prescription insomnia medication, travel sickness medication, and a copy of the Sun newspaper,

which announced the new higher reward money for Shannon. The reward had been recently raised to 50,000 pounds. Oh, my gosh. So the investigators were like, hey, wanker, we see you. Come out, you knob. You know, because I'm sure that's what they insult each other with, right? Of course.

I'm just sit-balling here. And Michael was like, nope, my eyes are closed. If I can't see you, you can't see me. This isn't really happening. That's not a direct quote, but it was his vibe. So Michael was a royal pain in the ass about coming out from under this stupid bed, which it's like they all see you. Where are you going to go?

But anyway, eventually they got him. And he was like, I'm coming out. I want the world to know. Got to let it show. I've got insomnia medication in my pocket. And 600 pounds. These aren't dumb bells. And they were like, we hear you, we hear you we hear you

enough of the stage show let's go so eventually they got him out there they arrested him but then he tried to bust out of his cuffs

and when that didn't work he tried to kick his way to freedom and when that didn't work he dropped to his knees and made them drag him to the cop car oh my gosh

no dignity no doubt then drag him to the cop car. No dignity. No doubt. Meanwhile, all of his neighbors were, like, pouring out of their houses, and I guess one of the officers let it slip that Michael had been hiding Shannon Matthews in his flat, and so the neighbors were like, you bloody piece of shite! I think. And okay, now this is a real quote. He said, don't

hate me, I'm a poorly man. Don't hate the play, hate the game! Meanwhile... It's really inappropriate, I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm kidding! Way to let me be on my high horse after all the stupid jokes I've made. Meanwhile, investigators searched the house and discovered what was basically a leash tied to a beam in the ceiling. When Michael wanted to leave the house, he'd tie Shannon to it,

and the rope gave her enough leeway to reach the bathroom and the bed, but not to escape. They also found handwritten instructions for Shannon. So Michael had given her all these rules, like don't go near the windows, don't make too much noise, you can watch TV, you can play video games, but you have to keep the volume really low. They also found two packed bags. Volume really low. They also found two packed bags. It seemed like those bags, coupled with the medication they found and all the cash, meant that Michael was preparing to flee with Shannon.

It was all pretty scary. How close they'd come to not saving Shannon. But the bottom line was, they'd found Shannon. Shannon Matthews was safe. People were celebrating in the streets. It was unbelievable. She'd been missing for 24 days, but she had been found. And the whole thing was arranged by her mother. How dare you? I have painted her out to be the hero of this story, so I don't know how you leapt to that conclusion. Shannon's dad, Leon, was over the moon. He said he felt like he'd won the lottery.

He was so excited. He thanked everyone for their help. And then the media came out to cover Karen's joyous reaction, and she looked devastated. What? You've got to see some of this footage. So she's standing there looking like Droopy the cartoon. Is that a cartoon?

Yeah, Droopy. Who the fuck's Droopy? The dog, right? Google it. Droopy? Droopy! Droopy's a cartoon dog? Yes!

Yeah, Droopy the dog! Don't you know he talks like this? Oh, yeah, this is the one that, doesn't Norm do his voice on the truck? Norm always imitates his voice. It sounds nothing like that. Oh, boy. Yeah, it doesn't. I didn't know his name was Droopy.

Where have you been, ma'am? Probably not listening to No Diggity No Town. Bow wow. So amazingly, Karen looked pretty bummed. In fact, she looked so sad that her friends who were watching her on live TV shouted to her from their living rooms. You know, she's just outside. Smile. Smile.

Literally on camera, they yelled to her, for God's sake, Karen, smile. Holy shit. And she turned back to them and then turned back to the cameras and gave just the slightest little smile you ever did see. With that, Karen and Craig were whisked off to the police station because obviously this was a big deal. They probably had a ton of questions about where Shannon had been and how she was doing. OMG, so many questions, questions, questions, questions. I didn't know where she was the whole time. Yeah, they weren't very curious.

Didn't really need to know much. And when investigators informed them that they wouldn't be allowed to be with Shannon because they wanted to preserve forensic evidence, Karen was cool with that. She watched her daughter through the two-way glass, her daughter she hadn't seen in 24 days, and said, she's got new clothes. Wow. new clothes. Wow. Police kept Shannon for as long as they could because they knew her mom was a giant sketchball. And that's a direct quote from the Queen of England. Meanwhile, Michael Donovan lawyered up and he made a statement to police and ooh, is it a doozy? In the statement, he claimed that the whole kidnapping had been Karen's idea. Yeah, obviously. Karen came to him and was like, here's a great scheme.

You take my daughter. I'll pretend she's gone missing and we'll collect that sweet, sweet reward money. And if you don't go along with this scheme, I'll send three dudes to kill you. Wow. Yeah, I'm not buying that part for a second. Yeah, I don't buy that part either. And so, of course, good guy Michael had no choice but to go along with the scheme. Super good guy.

Well, he didn't want to be murdered by three dudes, Brandy. When the reward money got to like 25,000 pounds, she called him and said, Hey, we're holding out for 50K. Once it gets to 50K, I'll tell you what to do. But she never called him because he got arrested before they could carry out the next phase of the plan. But the important thing to keep in mind here is that Michael was a super great guy and really the best guy ever because he bought Shannon toys and clothes and never hurt her once. All he did was kidnap her and drug her and tie her up whenever he left the house.

And if that's a crime, then lock him up. Oh, shit, it is a crime. Oh, yeah, it is a crime, yeah. At some point, Michael also told them that the plan had been for him to drop Shannon off at Dewsbury Market, drive around the corner, and then in full view of the surveillance camera, be like, oh, my God, I found the missing girl, and then collect the reward money and split it with

Karen. That's stupid. I completely agree. I think these people are morons. So, in other words, this was all a horrible, harebrained, money-making scheme carried out by two exceptionally stupid people. Am I wrong? No, you're not. By the way, here's a fun rumor. Karen and Michael were banging, which I think makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

You're not going to believe this next part because Michael was so nice buying Shannon those toys and all, because Michael was so nice buying Shannon those toys and all. But they had the nerve to charge him with kidnapping and false imprisonment and committing acts intended to pervert the course of justice, which, that's fancy. Pervert the course of justice? Then, like two seconds later. We just call that obstruction of justice here. We don't need to add any perverts to the mix. Well, we're more pure.

We got plenty of perverts here. Then, like two seconds later, because this whole story is just plain horrible. Craig Meehan, Shannon's boyfriend, was also arrested. What do you think for? I have no idea. Child porn. I was 100 percent. No, you weren porn. I was 100% going to say child porn. No, you weren't.

I was. Yeah, apparently investigators had discovered it on his computer when they were doing the investigation into Shannon's disappearance, and they were like, good grief, what the hell? This gets shittier and shittier. Yeah. This is when the house of cards really starts to fall. We've got Michael under arrest.

We've got Craig under arrest. Then Craig's sister, Amanda, was arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender. And then Craig's mom, Alice, was arrested for attempting to pervert the course of justice. And the two ladies were eventually let go. But still, well, yeah, I mean, Craig, for one. Perverts left and right. At this point, only the police knew about Michael putting the blame on Karen. But, I mean, it didn't take a genius to figure out that Karen was a big, sketchy weirdo. Yeah.

Her own friends were suspicious. So her two friends, Natalie and Julie, called the police, and they were like, yo, we've seen British procedurals. We've been training for this for our whole lives. We think we can crack our friend. Will you help us? And an officer was like, yeah, sure. So Karen, Natalie, Julie, and this community liaison officer all got in a car together and they all had pipes and little caps and those big magnifying glasses, which didn't really serve a purpose, but it's always

good to be prepared. That's right. And Natalie and Julie were like, look, Karen, everyone says you helped kidnap your kid. Were you involved? And Karen just broke down. She sobbed. She admitted that she had been involved. She broke in one question? I've got a theory. What is it?

Well, okay, it's based on a couple different things. So one source said, so I'm piecing together stuff here. One source said that she'd seen the Madeline McCann stuff and kind of thought, oh, this is the way this stuff goes. You can make a ton of money very quickly. Yeah. But the thing is, like, that was for the, you know, three-year-old blonde little rich girl. Yeah.

She wanted to hit 50K, and I don't think she anticipated that it would take, like, a month to hit 50K. And I don't think she anticipated the, just like, community outpouring of support and attention that would happen. just like community outpouring of support and attention that would happen. And so I think when you see her in these clips and she's acting so weird for a grieving mother, I think she actually looks embarrassed. It got way bigger than she ever thought it would and it had gotten out of control. Yeah.

Yeah. Like she wanted money. And I mean, I really hope that Shannon was not, I mean, she was obviously abused. She was abused at home, too. I mean, I just, I hope, I don't know what I'm hoping for here. I'm hoping it wasn't any worse than I'm imagining it for Shannon. So I'm wondering if maybe that's what Karen envisioned. For Shannon. So I'm wondering if maybe that's what Karen envisioned.

My kid will be gone for a couple of days at basically her uncle's house and we'll all make $50,000. Right. Or pounds. Yeah. Why would she be dreaming about American dollars? So Karen was immediately arrested for child neglect and perverting the course of justice. And a few months later, she was also charged with kidnapping and false imprisonment. Meanwhile, Craig went on trial for possession of child porn.

He was accused of having 49 images on his computer, was found guilty by a magistrate, and was sentenced to a whopping 20 weeks in prison. Wow. Right? What the hell? The dude had child porn. Yeah. And he actually got released the day of his sentencing because he'd already spent a ton of time in prison. But anyway, we don't even have time to get mad about this because in November of 2008, Karen and Michael had a joint trial because they were besties.

And banging. Allegedly. But I mean, that makes sense, right? Mm-hmm. Allegedly. Hmm. But, I mean, that makes sense, right? Yeah. The trial lasted three weeks, and Michael showed up with a broken jaw because, evidently, the other prisoners didn't look too kindly on what he'd done.

Mm-hmm. The prosecutor called Karen a skillful liar and told most of the story that I just told you, but also filled in a few extra details. The prosecution contended that everyone had been duped, including Shannon. She accepted a ride from Michael because she thought he was going to take her to a fair. She didn't know that she was about to be the victim of a fake slash real kidnapping. My gosh. The prosecution also brought forth a forensic toxicologist who said that Shannon had been given medication that treats insomnia as well as travel sickness medication to keep her subdued. But she wasn't just given that stuff while she was kidnapped. According to the testing, Shannon had been ingesting those drugs for up to 20 months before she was kidnapped.

Wow. Yeah, which explains why she was so sluggish at school. Yeah. Her mom was drugging her. Yeah. Good God. The court also heard about the toll that the kidnapping took on Shannon. She suffered from terrible nightmares and needed psychotherapy. They talked about not just what investigators found in Michael's home and the lies that Karen told, but also the fact that the investigation into Shannon's fake disappearance involved 300 officers and cost almost 3.2 million pounds.

Holy shit. Detective Christine Freeman, who had been in the car when Shannon's friends got her to confess, told the court what she'd witnessed that day. But Karen maintained her innocence. On the stand, she claimed that this whole thing was Craig's idea and that he'd forced her to go along with the plot. She was the fall guy for Craig and his entire family. Okay.

And the prosecutor was like, just so we're clear, this lady has told like five different versions of this story. She's full of shite. And in his defense, Michael claimed that he was really nice to Shannon and that he'd taken her on evening walks and he'd taken her shopping and that he was just a real sweet kidnapper, the sweetest kidnapper there's ever been. Mm-hmm. And he was just a real sweet kidnapper, the sweetest kidnapper there's ever been.

Mm-hmm. The jury deliberated for six hours and found Karen and Michael guilty. Yeah. How much time do you think they got? Oh, gosh, I have no idea since they got, what, 40 weeks for child porn, 20 weeks for child porn. 20 weeks, yeah. I have no idea. They were both sentenced to eight years in prison. Mm-hmm. 20 weeks, yeah. I have no idea. They were both sentenced to eight years in prison. But as more details—see, I think it's so funny to compare that to the United States.

Yeah, where it's life in prison. Yeah, where we have the Lindbergh kidnapping as our precedent, where basically we just, like, shoot you right in the face if you kidnap somebody. That's just a warning to our international listeners who might want to come over and kidnap somebody. Don't do it. Don't do it. You get shot right in the face. Do it on your home turf only. But as more details about Shannon's disappearance came to light, people started also asking questions about social services.

Yeah, how'd they miss this? Right. So many people had expressed concern about Karen's kids. Surely someone should have seen this coming. about Karen's kids. Surely someone should have seen this coming. But in 2010, a Curley's Safeguarding Children Board, which I assume is a thing,

decided that there was no way that social services could have predicted or prevented what happened to Shannon. Which, in a way, yeah, I mean, something so outlandish. But yeah, this is not the only thing that was going on in that house, obviously. Yeah, and I'm not so worried about predicting what this nutty person's going to do. But, I mean, come on. You don't ever want it to be easy for someone to get their kids taken away, but, I mean, it can't be impossible. Right. For someone to get their kids taken away.

But, I mean, it can't be impossible. Right. Two years later, in 2012, Michael and Karen were set free. They'd served half of their sentences. So four years for what they'd done. Yeah. I don't like it. No.

I mean, it's just so funny. In America, we do have a problem. We lock up way too many people here. We lock up way more people than almost any other country. Yeah. When you look at, you know, percentage of our population, we will stick a boot up your ass. But, you know, maybe they could borrow our boots. We literally have country songs that say that. Yeah.

They could borrow one of our boots in England, I think. Yeah, I think so. Were they ordered to pay restitution for the search effort? Oh, give me a break. These two? I mean, if they were, I didn't come across it in any of my articles. Maybe they're more realistic in England. They're looking at these two and they're like, no.

We're not getting a dime out of them? No, absolutely not. Meanwhile, Shannon was given a new identity. What? Shannon, the victim. My God. I thought you meant Karen. Okay.

I'm actually glad you did that. As I was writing this, for whatever reason, those two names, I would get them flipped around. Yeah. And I was terrified that I was going to be talking shit. I totally heard that as the mom got a new identity. But she actually also did too. You're fucking kidding me. No, I'm not.

Now, I do want to be careful here because some people apparently use this story as like, oh, this is what's wrong with welfare. This is what's wrong. And they like try to make this all about No, I don't think that's what this is about at all. I. This is what's wrong. And they like try to make this all about. That's not, I don't think that's what this is about at all.

I mean, if it were, then every poor mom would be fake kidnapping. Like this is clearly a very weird circumstance. Yeah. But I guess after she got out, she was put in some kind of, I didn't write this down,

but no, some kind of, um, I think it was a mental health service. And she was given a makeover and a new name and people got really pissed, which I imagine makeover is a strong word. I would imagine she got a freaking haircut and a new set of trousers. I don't know. Britches, I think.

Okay. So Shannon gets a new identity. Which you're okay with. I am. I'm definitely okay with with that and who does she live with so this is interesting karen's parents applied for custody and didn't get it and shannon's dad applied and he didn't get it wow he can get custody of his own kid and he wasn't involved in the yeah i don't know i don't know why that didn't happen i don't know if they looked into him and decided that wasn't good or maybe they talked to shannon and she didn't want that i don't know wow um so she was sent to live with foster parents and so were all of her brothers and sisters so she never saw her um biological family again she never went back

to that school you, she like once she was kidnapped for her, it was a real kidnapping. She was truly traumatized. And yeah, I mean, I guess by now she's a grown woman. Yeah. And I hope she's doing well. Yeah. And that's the story of the disappearance of Shannon Matthews. So, you know, I told you they reached out to the Madeline McCann Fund and they wanted some of the money. It sounds like they were a little tacky when they asked for it. But anyway. Is that shocking information to you? I don't find that shocking at all.

I'm just saying. I'm just saying. And apparently the McCanns were going to give them money because they did feel bad for them but then I guess the police reached out and they were like screech hold the brakes on that money we think these people are weird oh my gosh

yeah so that's a big case in England and I'd never heard of it I was not familiar with it either but it's my gift to you thank you I think it's cute that we get each other gift cases. I think it is so funny that we both planned that. I was like, I've got to do a kidnapping for Brandy.

All right, should we do some questions from our Discord? You guys, if you're wanting in on this party, all you've got to do is sign up for our Patreon at the $5 level. You get bonus episodes, and you get into the Discord. If you want to kick in a few more bucks, you can also get inducted on the podcast and you can get a bonus video, which will not be me yelling at my husband or crying on videotape, I promise. And $10 level gets you. All that and you get the episode a day early and ad free.

And 10% off on merch. That's right. My2tatertots asks, is London doing okay? London is great. Somehow, miracle of miracles, London stayed healthy the entire time. I tested positive and David actually tested negative initially but then developed symptoms and for sure had COVID. Yeah. At that point, we still had to keep London with us because she had been exposed to us.

So that meant that she was potentially carrying the virus at that point, even if she wasn't exhibiting symptoms. So we took care of her the whole time that we were sick and she stayed healthy. Her doctor told us just to monitor her temperature like three times a day, watched her breathing, and she was her normal, happy, smiley self. Thank God. Thank God. Terrifying.

It was terrifying. I was way more anxious about her health and safety than any of the rest of us, obviously, because she's a tiny baby and perfect and beautiful. But she was great. You sound like Karen Matthews. Stop it! Melody wants to know, are you okay? What was COVID like? Do you feel like Sharon?

Yeah, I'll talk about it. So I know that we've said it. We posted it on our social media. I've said it at the top of this episode. This was the sickest I have ever been. This is not something to mess around with. It's interesting because there were six of us in our little family pod that all got sick. We weren't doing anything risky.

We, you know, it was just the six of us together. It was, you know, nothing crazy. You were in your pod. Yeah. And my dad and Casey developed symptoms first, and they got tested. Well, Casey got tested first, found out she was positive. The rest of us went and got tested. You know, we all came down with it.

But we all had very different versions of it, which I think is so interesting. I got a really rough version of it. I am immunocompromised. I have an autoimmune disease. That could be part of it. I also had a baby three months ago and major surgery along with that baby. So that could be part of it. I also had a baby three months ago and major surgery along with that baby. So that could be part of it. But for whatever reason,

I had a really tough version that is still considered mild. I was not hospitalized. I didn't need medical intervention, but I was really fucking sick. I had all of the symptoms, essentially. I had a fever for a couple days. I had the respiratory stuff.

My lungs, every time I took a breath, my lungs felt like they were literally burning. It was a horrible feeling. I felt like I couldn't catch my breath. I had really shallow breathing. I had a cough, headache. I lost my sense of smell, which is the weirdest thing ever. Yeah. I could not smell anything. I was doing like vapor rub. And then it occurred to me that I couldn't smell it. Yeah. And so then I started like smelling different things around my house.

I couldn't smell anything. That had to be so weird. It was so weird. I had body aches. My whole body would just be, like, drenched in sweat. Yeah. And the weirdest thing to me about this virus is that it, like, it truly, like, was like in a wave. You know, I'd feel pretty good in the morning. And then as the day went on, oh, gosh, I'd feel terrible. And just, like, typically with most, you know, viruses or whatever, there's a few days where you feel pretty bad and then you start to feel better and better and better.

And for like a solid, I'd say seven days, I felt worse every day. I felt terrible, like the sickest I've ever felt for like a good 10 days. It was really scary. I say all of this like not to scare anybody or whatever. I just think that it's really important that people know that this is a real thing. It's super scary. We need to be following the guidelines. If you have shitty guidelines, follow better ones. Wear a mask. I think you have like the reason I'm glad you're telling all this stuff is like we are in a really weird position where we have a president yeah who has been told how serious this is yeah and admitted to a journalist

that he was downplaying it and he is continuing to downplay it so now it's it's this weird thing where it's like it's up to normal people to tell their friends and, you know, their podcast listeners, hey, like this. I had it. It's bad. It sucks. And I had a mild version. There are people who are sick for much longer than I was. There are people who are in the hospital on ventilators.

Yeah. My family, myself and my family, we are extremely lucky. How sad is that? You're extremely lucky no one died. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was terrible.

Yeah. It was terrible. I'm glad you're okay. Me too. Glad you're back, too. I'm so glad to be back. Skirt Suit wants to know, what was it like listening to Replacements, Brandi? Oh, I thought Kyla and your dad did so good.

They're just excellent, aren't they? They are. They did great. Yeah. They did really, really great. It made me miss being on the show, though, too. Because it's so fun. It is fun.

Yeah. But I thought they did me proud. And, yes, I was outraged that Kyla had no court stuff in hers. Oh, yeah. As predicted. And as DP predicted, I 100% guessed that Leona Helmsley was sent to prison on tax day. And I loved it. Panic at the Discord asked, Brandi, what was your favorite comfort food slash activity while you were sick?

I had no appetite while I was sick, so I was literally just eating to keep myself from throwing up. Yeah. But my favorite activity is David and I played the shit out of Animal Crossing. Our island is top notch now. I'm very happy for you. Thank you. Butthole Swab asks, was the COVID test or the butthole swab worse? Okay, so this COVID test that I had was not nearly as bad as the COVID test that I had at the hospital.

So somebody explained to us in the Discord that they have different versions of the test. Like there's like a, you know, a scrape your brain version. There's like a mid-range version. you know, a scraper brain version. There's like a mid-range version. So this test that I had was a much thicker swab than the one that I had when I was tested in the hospital when I had London. And so it doesn't go as far back. And so it was a much easier swab than the one that I had.

But you did ask them to shove something up your butt. I did. Well, it was really awkward because so we did a self-test at CVS. We were in the CVS drive-thru, and I was taking my pants off. And the lady was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, ma'am. Ma'am, it goes in your nose. You're like, yeah, but I like a DP. Oh, Sticky Situation wants to know, Kristen, if you could enter Brandy into any reality show, what would it be?

And Brandy, if you could enter Kristen into any game show, what would it be? What game show would I put you on? Oh, God. That'd be terrible. You'd hate it so much. I would hate it. Maybe I'd put you, like, on Deal or No Deal. That's my least favorite game show.

What is that even? That's the one where you have to pick the boxes and, like, maybe you win a million dollars, maybe you win a penny. That sounds stupid. I hate it, but there's no, like, it's all chance. Okay, yeah. That seems fair. Okay, so I know you would never want to be a contestant in a reality show at all. So here's what I would want for you, my friend.

I would want for you to be on some terrible TLC show like Darcy and Stacey. Yeah, you don't even know. My God, get a clue, woman. Okay, so Darcy was kind of the breakout star of 90 Day Fiancé, which I know you don't enjoy, but I enjoy immensely. Can't handle the cringe. I cannot handle the cringe. Well, here's the thing. Darcy has a twin named Stacy.

And let me tell you, they like to do themselves up to the nines. They've got, you know, the extensions. They've got the eyelash. Everything's extended. They wear stilts. Well, yeah. It doesn't seem. I'm trying to think of a way to say this.

You know what it seems. It's a hilarious joke. It was not that hilarious. It was. It was pretty funny. You didn't laugh hard enough about my deleted scene from Sound of Music, which was an excellent joke. So you won't laugh at my stilts joke. I refuse.

And it does work pretty well because they do wear stilettos and they're very short. But, you know, what I'm trying to tell you is, I mean, I'm trying to. Okay, so here's the deal. You know how some reality TV show stars are very obsessed with the look, but they don't have a lot of money because it's just reality TV. So what it looks like to me is. They're balling on a budget. Once a week they go and get their hair done they get

their makeup done and they try and stretch that and they just look kind of dirty oh no like they look great for a couple shots and then they start to look dirty and so i'm thinking maybe you could just be the salon owner who yeah you know gets them cleaned up a little for like a few shots you're not like a featured player but like you would be in there be like oh so what's going on with so and so yeah oh really okay and then you're done i could handle that painless thank you that'd be good you're welcome i care about you even though you don't laugh at my great jokes oh ucm mules and more Oh, UCM Muleson Moore. What? Muleson Moore. Ask, did you binge watch anything while recovering? I binge watched a couple things.

David and I watched The Haunting of Hill House, which we're way late to the game on, but we loved. And then I watched, so I had watched the first season of Making a Murderer when it first came out. And I'd never gone back and watched the second season. Really? Brandy. Welcome to the world, baby girl. What are you thinking? I was so mad watching that.

It is infuriating. You're literally, like, five years? I know, five years to the game. Yes, thank you. Okay, okay. Sure, sure. You know what movie I saw on TV? I mean, we didn't click on it, but I was like, oh, my God, it took me back instantly.

What? Do you remember the horror film that we saw together in, I believe, middle school or maybe early high school that freaked us the fuck out. Michelle Pfeiffer. What lies beneath. Oh, yes. That would be so creepy. It is creepy.

You didn't watch it? Norman and I do not enjoy horror films. I know you don't. I do feel like the few times we have actually watched scary movies, we basically curl into each other's laps. And it's a good time. But I mean, it's really simple. I didn't mean it like that.

When to be the one. It's a real scary time is what I'm trying to say. David and I both like horror movies. And so we've been watching a bunch of them. We watched a couple of, like, psychological thriller ones. We watched The Rental, which Dave Franco wrote and directed. Very good. We also watched the Rob Zombie version of Halloween,

and then the newest Halloween where Jamie Lee Curtis is grown up, Laurie. Uh-huh. I think we watched a couple others, too. But we're in, you know, spooky season. Got to watch the spooky movies. Was it not spooky enough to have the scariest virus around? It really was. I was going to say, I think that'd be enough for me.

I Didn't Write This Down asks, if you each wanted to impress a first-time visitor, what dish or menu do you serve? Depends on the visitor. It does. But my go-to, because it's the best thing I make, is you have to finish with the cookies. Yeah. But a meal cannot be made on cookies alone, Brandy. I believe. Uh-huh.

Oh, she's leaning in. First time I made you my oatmeal scotchies. Uh-huh. Oh, she's leaning in. The first time I made you my oatmeal scotchies. They're amazing. You texted me the next day and said you ate them for breakfast. Oh, yeah, that's bad tracks. Yeah, they're amazing. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, I hate to go with my old standby, but.

You got to make that fruit tart. Oh, oh, yeah, I mean, I hate to go with my old standby, but, um. You gotta make that fruit tart. Oh, oh, yeah, the fruit tart. That is a super impressive thing that you make. Thank you. But, I mean, as far as, like, crowd pleasers? Yeah. Sausage brunch. Sausage brunch.

Sausage brunch followed by a fruit tart. And if you spill them down your pants, you spill them down your pants. Lift Sprinkle says, We know that Kristen doesn't like being called the gaming historian's wife. Brandi, are you okay with inevitably being known as London's mom? Absolutely. No. She's not. She's shaking her head no.

She says, I'm the star of the show. No, 100%. I'm more than happy to be known as London's mom. Oh, look at you. 100% I'm more than happy to be known as London's mom. Oh, look at you. My favorite thing to do right now is every time I see Norm, I force him to look at pictures of my baby. It is one of my favorite things you do as well. Because it's like he's an alien from another planet and he knows he has to stop and say aww and smile for like a polite amount of time and then move along.

Right. He clearly does not enjoy it at all. Not at all. So you wouldn't be offended if somebody called you London's mom. But what if they called you an average Joe? I'd be horribly offended. One of the worst things someone could call me. Should we tell people or not?

I think we should tell people where that comes from. Okay, you guys. Brandi and I took an online quiz. I was none too pleased with my results. Turns out we're narcissists. We're both moderate narcissists. Who could have guessed that we, you know, two people who decided to plug some microphones in and record ourselves making stupid jokes to each other.

But yeah, so one of the questions that I think reveals how obnoxious we are is we would both be offended if someone referred to us as an average Joe. Absolutely. And Norm was like, that would not offend me one bit. Norm could not care less if someone called him that. And we would have to kill that person. That's right. Also, a basic bitch asks, do you have any tips for keeping your baby safe if we as mamas get COVID? So I have no idea if anything we did kept London safer. But we were extremely mindful of staying out of her face, not giving kisses, which about killed me. Yeah. For two weeks, I couldn't kiss my baby, which

was terrible. But we yeah, we made a lot of effort to not be face to face with her and to do no kisses and obviously lots of hand washing and all of that. And I have no idea if that went into keeping her safe or if we just got extremely lucky. But that's the steps that we took. Yeah. These are scary times. Very scary times. But I hope that helps.

All right. Should we move on to Supreme Court Inductions? Yes, let's do some Supreme Court Inductions. You guys, this week we are reading your names and favorite books. Oh, shocking. All right. I'm trying to get us through this list, but you know, we're just so popular. Oh, yeah, we're just so popular, people keep adding on to the list.

Lisa Marie Chambers. You Are a Badass by Jen Sincero. Beth Navarita. My Sister's Keeper by Jodi Picoult. Madison Marosca. The Nightingale. Michael Jacobs. Red Wall series by Brian Jacques.

Amber Haig. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. Wind Shoe Sun. The Paper Menagerie and Other Stories by Ken Liu. Nina Evie. Hidden Bodies by Carolyn Kepnes. Cynthia Tanner. Anything by Jodi Picoult.

Kelly Esmay. The Hunger Games series. Shelby Nicholas. Water for Elephants by Sarah Gruen. Kelsey Silvernail. Anything by Anne Rule. Katie Asper. Where the Crawdads Sing.

Hannah Taylor. Verity. Annie Flynn. White is for Witching. By Helen Oyayemi. Diana Martinez. Anything by John Green. Caitlin Deddy.

Anything by Karen Slaughter. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Oh my gosh, my voice cracked. Shut up. Hit puberty, did you? I sure did. Guys, thank you for all your support. On a personal note, thank you to everybody who reached out while I was sick and checked on me and my family.

That was such an awesome feeling to know there were so many people supporting us and sending us well wishes. So thank you for all of that. And thank you for all of your continued support here on the podcast. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Once you've followed us all those places, would you be professional? Please head on over to Apple Podcasts, leave us a rating, leave us a review. You guys, I'm shaking my boobs so hard. And Brandi keeps going. And it kind of hurts my feelings.

And I haven't really thrown her off her game yet. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And be sure to join us next week. I just gave myself a black eye. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the BBC, an episode of Case File titled Shannon Matthews, and the documentary TV series Tears, Lies, and Videotape, plus Wikipedia. I got my info from an episode of Aaron Manke's podcast, Lore, an article from Mental Floss, NewYorkCityHistory.org, The New York Times, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.