Let's Go To Court! - 148: A Dwelling Defender & a Normal Middle Class Family

Episode Date: November 11, 2020

Byron David Smith was in his basement on Thanksgiving Day, minding his own business when he heard a window break upstairs. Then he heard someone enter his home. Byron grabbed his gun and waited quietly as the intruder roamed the house. When the intruder came down the stairs, Byron fired his gun three times. The intruder, 17-year-old Nicholas Brady, died. Ten minutes later, another intruder entered Byron’s home. It was 18-year-old Haile Kifer. Byron killed her, too -- shooting her six times. On the surface, it seemed that Byron had acted within his legal rights. In Minnesota, a person may use deadly force to prevent a felony from taking place in their home or dwelling. But as investigators soon discovered, this case wasn’t clear cut, and Byron wasn’t as innocent as he seemed.   Then Brandi tells us about a “normal, middle class family,” but we all know where this story is headed. Chris and Tina Lunney were living what appeared to be a pretty comfortable life in New Jersey. They had two children, and had asked Tina’s mother to come live with them. From the outside looking in, it seemed that everything was going well. But then one day, Tina called Chris in a panic. Her mother, Marie Zoppi, had died by suicide. She hadn’t seemed unhappy, but she’d taken her life. Or had she? And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “12 minutes on Elm street” episode of Dateline “Court to announce jury’s verdict in Byron Smith murder trial,” by Ashli Overlund for WJON News “MN Supreme Court upholds Byron Smith conviction,” by Allen Costantini for KARE 11 “Graphic audio released by courts of Byron Smith as he guns down two teens in his Minnesota basement,” Associated Press “Little Falls man found guilty on all four counts of murder,” Associated Press  “Castle Doctrine,” entry on Wikipedia “Byron David Smith killings,” entry on Wikipedia  “Byron David Smith,” entry on Murderpedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Tina Lunney” episode Snapped “State of New Jersey v. Tina Lunney” law.justia.com “Prosecutor: Fairfield woman killed mother, 81, staged it to look like a suicide” by Julia Terruso, The Star-Ledger “Husband reads letter to jurors where wife confesses to murdering her mother” by Julia Terruso, The Star-Ledger “Fairfield woman told police she strangled mother with necktie” by Julia Terruso, The Star-Ledger “Jury convicts Fairfield woman of strangling her mother” by Julia Terruso, The Star-Ledger

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode I'll talk about defending your property. And I'll be talking about a nice normal middle-class family. Oh uh-huh. Nothing to see here folks. Did you do another family annihilator? No. Oh, quick. Oh, I wouldn't possibly. I couldn't possibly.

How are you doing today, Kristen? Real shitty. Yeah. Real shitty. It's a rough day. Oh, my gosh. You guys, today is the, as we record this, today is the day after the election. We both stayed up, I mean, basically all night.

Do your eyes hurt? My eyes hurt. No. Oh, well, then I guess I'm taking this worse than you. Freshest eyes this side of the Mississippi. Okay. Well, I've got the body of a supermodel and the brain of a rocket scientist, but you don't hear me dragging about it. Did you hear?

I said you don't hear me dragging about it. I couldn't even think of the word. That's that rocket scientist brain. Brain, yeah. Just clicking away. It's full of rockets. Can't even get words out. Just an empty skull with rockets in it.

Yeah, so it's a real anxious day. Yesterday was anxious. Today's anxious. How long will we be anxious? You know what I hope? I hope by the time everybody listens to this, they're like, oh, isn't that cute? Remember

when we were anxious, like, days and days ago? I'm saying what I hope, Brandi. You don't have to make that fucking face. We're not making predictions. We're talking about our hopes and dreams here. Oh, okay. I'm feeling real great about that, Gris.

You guys, Brandi thinks she's a genius. I don't think I'm a genius. You think that you're the rocket scientist when we all know that I'm the rocket scientist. Nothing to drag about here. No, as you guys might know, in last week's episode, Brandi was like, I think Donald Trump's going to be a real crusty butthole about this election. He's going to sue and throw a big noisy fuss. And would you look at that?

Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. He's already filed one suit, Kristen? Listen, I didn't debate you. I like how I tacked on that you called him a crusty butthole. I mean, I might as well have. Yeah.

Hey, hey, hey. Keep your politics out of here. Stop it. I might have to leave this room. Not gonna feel great about it, but I'll do it. Oh, Lord. Biscuits.

You guys, it's been rough, but you know what has made me feel good? What? I've heard from some people who are like, times are tough, but I've been listening to your podcast for, like, a little relaxation, a little take me away,

my sweet escape, and then they launch into the whole song, and I'm like, stop, please, I don't have the time, you know? We have gotten a lot of that feedback, and it has been really nice to hear. Should I tell my voting story? Yeah, you should tell your voting story. So I went to vote yesterday, like you do. Went to my polling place, had baby London with me. Oh, she's really dragging out this story, guys. First I woke up

and then I wiped the crust out of my eyes. Anyway, I went in, I checked in, and the woman who was checking me in scanned my ID, and she's like, could you confirm your name for me? And then she went, oh, my God, I know you. And she was a listener. It was so exciting. That's so cool. It was so exciting.

Yeah, you texted me, and you were like uh, I got recognized today. I was like, what? I was so flustered by it that I don't think I said any actual words to her. Well, yeah, you said don't look me in the eyes. Right? And when she said she knew me, I was like, you do?

Who the fuck am I? Right? And then I said, no autographs. And she was like, ma'am, I just need you to sign this to confirm your address and stuff. I was like, oh, excuse me. I'm so embarrassed. In conclusion, you guys, Brandi's a big celebrity.

My head was so big I couldn't fit in my little booth that I had to do my voting. I had to hang it outside and use my binoculars to read the screen. Yeah, and she was like, where do I press for Trump, you know? Because that's the big thing is like, you know, he didn't denounce white supremacy. And that's like totally fine. Doesn't bother us one bit. Now, people talking about politics on podcast, that does bother us. But not refusing to denounce white supremacy.

I'm sorry. I'm going to roast you. You can keep listening if you want to, but I'm going to roast you. By the way, boom, roasted. Should we do an ad? Yeah. Brandy. Brandy, Brandy, Brandy.

You're a story for me? Oh, gosh. Thank you to Fixin' Lunch in the Discord for recommending this case. Yes. God, I am not feeling, I'm not feeling. You're not feeling pepped? I'm not feeling on top of my game today, guys. I'm sleep deprived.

Sleep deprived, anxious. Her nails are bitten down to bloody nubs. They really are not looking good. I've been messing with them. So have I. Just been picking. Uh-huh. Whew.

But, you know, let's roll through this. The show must go on. Oh, God. That was a little queen for you. Oh, was it a little queen? What if I told you I've started to cover this case like three times and quit every time? Okay, that makes me feel better because I was like, fuck, why did I cover this one during such a rough time? I don't know.

There's something about it that initially seems like this won't be so bad. Look at this little tasty morsel. It's terrible. You want to quit, don't you? I have quit every time. Wow. Well, as the superior woman. Here I go. Thank you to the episode of Dateline, 12 Minutes on Elm Street.

Also reporting from the Star Tribune, CBS, Murderpedia, Wikipedia. Although I got to say, the Wikipedia entry. When you go and look at some of the cited articles, they don't include some of the information that's on the Wikipedia entry. Just a little heads up for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is listening. What are you doing? I don't know. I'm just saying.

I'm just saying. What's the message you're sending here, Kristen? I'm saying that some of the stuff in the Wikipedia entry might be inaccurate because there's no source for it. Okay. I got you now. Yeah, boy. I hate having to slow things down to your level. You really like to shit on Wikipedia. I'm not shitting on Wikipedia.

I'm just saying. Just saying. Anyway. Brandi, as you already know. Well, this is kind of lame that you know the shit out of this story. I don't know the shit out of it. I've listened to a podcast on it. Oh, shit.

And then I've done some reading. Who did a podcast episode on Sword and Scale? Yeah. Oh. Yep. For the record, no longer listen to Sword and Scale. This was one of their early episodes. Why not?

He's such a great guy. I disagree. I think we're going to shock some people by saying that. Okay. Byron Smith was sitting in his basement in the little town of Little Falls, Minnesota, sitting in his reading chair, just reading away, chilling, chilling, minding his business. He had a pretty quiet life. He'd never married, and he'd grown up in Little Falls,

but he'd gone on to work for the U.S. State Department, and his work had taken him all over the world. Cairo, Bangkok, Olathe, Kansas. I don't know about the last one. But you get the idea. Oh, the booming metropoli. Is that the plural of metropolis? No, I made that up. Well, actually, I don't know that it isn't.

Metropolises? Metropolis sounds right. It sounds better than metropolises. I think I'm onto something here. Let's not question it. But you know, eventually he retired and he'd moved back to Little Falls. At the risk of sounding like a grade A biatch, either Byron didn't make a lot of money in the State Department or he didn't do a good job keeping his money because this dude's house looked a little shabby, in my opinion. He had not made his house a home. There was overgrown grass outside and fallen tree limbs. And judging from the smell-o-vision on my

television set, that man's living room smelled like 12 hungry man dinners, several stacks of old newspapers, and a sprinkling of depression. Oh, Christy. I'm sorry. You know, there's benefits to watching the Dateline. They've got all that B-roll. And there are some houses, Brandon, don't be shaking your head. There are some houses that you see the inside and you're like, that place doesn't smell

good. Yes. I promise. I guarantee you it doesn't smell good in there. I have experienced that before. The smell-o-vision has gotten to you, too. I promise. I guarantee you it doesn't smell good in there. Yes, I have experienced that before. The smell-o-vision has gotten to you too, I see. According to some very loyal neighbors who spoke with the fine folks of Dateline, Byron was a fun guy. He mentored Boy Scouts and he let some neighborhood boys practice their band in his garage.

It's a weird way of saying it, but I couldn't practice their band. Band practice. Band practice? Yeah, yeah, but that sounds like it's a school thing. It's not a school thing. It's a cool thing. I couldn't practice their band, though. That's not.

I know. It sounds weird. I was getting a little tight on time, getting a little stressed about democracy. Anyway, but in recent years, Byron had gotten a little weird. It seemed to stem from the fact that his home had been broken into a few times. According to Byron, his home, over the course of just a few months, was broken into at least six times. Wow. Yeah, it always happened when he was out of the house and it really freaked him out.

As it would. Yes. The thieves had stolen money and even some sentimental items. And because of that, Byron got really distant and really quiet. And he was so scared about someone coming and breaking into his home again that he installed a security system with multiple cameras. And he put up an assload of those no trespassing signs all over his property, which was good because everyone knows that burglars respect those signs. Yeah, they're like, you know, they're doing that thing

where they have the canvas bag over their shoulder dressed all in black and they're doing like the tiptoe. Dee-dee, dee-dee, dee-dee. And then they see that and they go, ooh! And they turn around and leave. My favorite thing online, okay, so,

and you see this a lot now. Is porn, yes. It's all over the place, Kristen. It's called pornography. And I just discovered it. No, it's those videos of someone sneaking up to a house and they spot that sign, the no trespassing sign, and they go, oh, shucks, and then they walk off.

Is that a thing? Yeah, it's burglars. It's real-life burglars. They see that, and they say it in the droopy voice. They go, oh, hamburgers. And they turn around and leave. They turn around and leave? Yeah.

Okay. So he was so freaked out. Is that what Droopy says? Oh, hamburgers? I don't think so. I'm in a bit of a loopy mood, if you must know. Anyway, so Byron was so freaked out, he started wearing a gun on his hip in his own home, as you do. Yeah.

It's funny because I don't carry a gun in public, but the second I get home, I'm strapped. I'll be damned if I'm going to be shot by someone in my own home. Outside's another problem. That was a joke. I don't own a gun. Yeah, neither do I. I guess we should probably start this out with neither of us own guns. We don't own guns.

Except if you're planning on robbing my house, I own several guns and a grenade launcher. Anyway, now that we've covered that, my house has a moat around it, so good luck getting to me. I also have, there's no trespassing signs, so you will come up and you will say, oh, hamburgers, and walk away. So just don't waste your time. Then, on Thanksgiving Day, 2012. Oh my gosh, you did it. It's so timely. Wow, how great.

Thanksgiving, yeah. It's not Thanksgiving today. I know, but, like, people are really impressed. They're like, wow, it's, timely. Wow. How great. Thanksgiving. Yeah. It's not Thanksgiving today. I know, but like people are really impressed. They're like, wow, it's like right around the corner. Did she do that on purpose? Maybe she did. I don't know. That's just, that's the chatter I'm hearing.

Is it? Yeah, from the audience. They're really impressed, Brandy. Oh, okay. Excuse me. They're also like, I heard Brandy tried to do this and she just couldn't. Okay, excuse me. They're also like, I heard Brandy tried to do this and she just couldn't.

So, you know, Byron's sitting in the basement in his reading chair, which was an orange wingback number that looked like it had been filled to the brim with farts. When he heard, I get, you saw a picture of this chair, you'd be like, mm-mm. It's got funk all over it. You think that's all that's got all over it, Kristen? Okay, stop. This is a classy podcast, as everyone knows. When he heard glass shatter upstairs, someone was breaking into his home. Byron was terrified, and as I said,

his home had been burgled many times, but he'd never actually been home when it happened. But, um, gee, you know, he normally kept his truck parked in his driveway, but it wasn't parked there that day. You see, he'd moved it a ways down the road because he wanted to clear out his garage. And then he just left it there for a while and I guess went down to the basement to read. And I'm no expert, but I'm thinking maybe this burglar saw that Byron's truck wasn't in the driveway and was like, woo, I'm going in. At any rate, Byron heard the glass shatter, and he stayed in the basement, and the intruder walked around Byron's house and came to the top of the basement stairs,

and then the intruder walked down the stairs. Meanwhile, Byron was crouched right there with a view of the stairs and his gun drawn. was crouched right there with a view of the stairs and his gun drawn. As the intruder came further down the stairs, Byron saw the intruder's hips, and he shot him. The intruder, 17-year-old Nick Brady, fell. Byron stood over him with Nick looking up at him, and Byron shot Nick in the face. Oh, my gosh. Then, Byron dragged Nick's dead body into his workshop and sat back down in his reading chair and reloaded his gun.

Ten minutes passed. He heard more movement upstairs. He heard movement at the top of the basement stairs. Then he heard a voice. It sounded like it came from a young woman. She whispered, Nick? She walked down the stairs. Poor Byron was terrified.

He pulled his gun on her. And according to Byron, he tried to fire, but he couldn't. The gun jammed. And in that moment, the girl, who was 18-year-old Haley Kiefer, laughed. She laughed right in his face. And Byron was pissed. Oopsie, I mean scared. He was terrified. And so he pulled out a 22-gauge shotgun,

and he shot her multiple times in the chest. Oh, my gosh. He dragged her into the workshop where Nick lay dead, and with Haley still gasping for breath, Byron shot her one final time in the head. He'd done it. Byron had defended his home. What do you think, Brandy?

Hate it. Oh, you don't want to defend homes? Is that your issue? I think there's a difference. I don't even know if I think that. My argument here in this particular case would be it sounds to me like he did a lot more of lying in wait. Oh, he was terrified. Than defending his home.

I'm sorry, are you not allowed to go downstairs and fart in your reading chair for a while? If so, lock me up. You may be saying to yourself, my God, that was a horrifying story. Can we get to the part where Byron goes to prison? Well, this story isn't that simple. Because in the eyes of the law, maybe what he did was okay. So let's pause for a second for a lesson on Minnesota law, given to you for the sake of levity in a Minnesota accent. Brandy, in Minnesota, you can't just go breaking into somebody's home.

If you do, they can shoot you, and that's just tough tooties for you, Missy, in Minnesota, you can't just go breaking into somebody's home. If you do, they can shoot you. And that's just tough tooties for you, Missy, okay? So next time you think about busting into that nice brick ranch next door, you better pause. Here's the rules. If you think that your life or the life of someone else is in immediate jeopardy, you just fire away, okay? You ask questions later. Sorry, it's not funny. To quote CBS News,

in Minnesota, a person may use deadly force to prevent a felony from taking place in one's home or dwelling. What's wrong? Oh my God, what is it? Oh my God, it's a stink bug. Oh my God, that thing is terrifying. Oh boy. We got a friend in here with us. But you say he's just stink bug. Oh, my God. That thing is terrifying. Oh, boy.

We got a friend in here with us. But you say he's just a friend. Yeah, I'm not banging the stink bug. We don't know for sure. Kind of a she said stink bug said situation. Did you say situation? Yes, I did. It's great that we have a podcast and we're doing this right now,

after Election Day when I have no sleep. Okay, now maybe I should jump back before the stink bug interrupted us. Yes. Although, Patty, if that was funny, keep it in. Only if it was funny, Patty. Only if it was funny. Only if you peed your pants laughing. To quote CBS News,

in Minnesota, a person may use deadly force to prevent a felony from taking place in one's home or dwelling. Obviously, this is not something that's super unique to Minnesota or anything. As a general rule in these United States, we have what's called castle doctrine. I was going to say, it's castle doctrine or stand your ground laws. what's called castle doctrine. I was going to say it's castle doctrine or standard ground laws. So the loose definition is that in certain circumstances you can use force, including deadly force. God, your face. Are you okay? I hate it. I know. To protect yourself when someone comes into your home or your vehicle and you won't face prosecution. Your own personal domicile. That's right. Obviously, there's a lot of gray

area there. And Minnesota is one of those places where the gray area kind of shrinks. Minnesotans tend to side with the homeowner or the dwelling dweller, as they say. I don't think anybody says that. No one's ever said that. So Byron Smith shot and killed these intruders. Oh, hold on, hold on. So first of all, what do you think about that? Like the castle doctrine thing? I think there's way too much gray area.

I think it is a very scary law and there's a lot of room for interpretation. Yeah. And I think this might be one of my weird stances, especially weird because, like, I don't own a gun. I don't want to own a gun. If somebody. OK. But if someone came into my house. Yes.

If somebody attacked me in my home. Yeah. Yes. I believe that me in my home. Yeah. Yes. I believe that I have the right to defend myself. And if that means that person dies and I live. Like we covered a case like that. Yeah. The woman who, a hit man was sent for her.

Yeah. And she killed him. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. But what was interesting about that is my memory of your retelling, your telling of that story was not that like she didn't set out to kill him. No. She set out to kind of subdue him and stop him. Yeah.

But he just would not stop. Yeah. I mean, at a certain point. I mean, she even said, you tell me who sent you and I'll call you an ambulance. Yeah. tell me who sent you and I'll call you an ambulance. Yeah. Yeah, so that's, to me,

I'm so torn on it because, yes, if I think, if I was in my house and someone came in and it was very clear that they were attacking me, you know, and it was my life or theirs, yeah, I have to believe that I would at least fight back. Right. Or, alternatively, would you say, can I help you?

Well, that is what I did. I mean, I wasn't attacked, but a man came in my house, and I did ask if I could help him. I offered him a glass of iced tea. No, you didn't. No, I might as well have. Do you want to tell this story? I know you've told it before, but it's relevant. I know I've told it before, but it's relevant.

Yes, it was like a Saturday afternoon. I was home by myself. It was, you know, like 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and I have a security system on my house, and when a door opens, it chimes. And my security system chimed, and I was like looking at most of the doors in my house, and they hadn't opened. And so that, like, just logically I knew it had to be my external garage door and so I got up and I went to the garage and I opened the door from my house to my garage and there was a man standing there and I said can I help you and he told me that his name was Jason. Mm-hmm. And I said, okay. Hi, Jason.

Get the fuck out of my house. And then he said, I think I've got the wrong house. And I said, I think you do. And he left. You know the cute thing about that story? What? That was actually David. And they are now engaged.

No. That was actually David, and they are now engaged. Okay, what if I opened that door, there's a man standing in my garage, and I just blew his head off? I mean, I think in Kansas— I would be covered in Kansas, yes. Yeah. But is that the right way to handle it? Well, I think there's a lot of gray area. That's my issue.

There's so much gray area. And I think that it would be really easy to argue, like, especially if he were armed. Yeah. If a man comes into your house, you're just a, you know, 80-pound woman. And just does a little wisp of a girl. And you're, oh, my. Then, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, obviously that's not the solution you would want at all. Right. But, I mean, it's not like you're going to have time to like sit down with him Mr. Rogers style and figure out what his deal is. Exactly, and assess the situation. Yeah.

But you would have time for a weird accent. Yeah, I mean. It's a situation. Yeah. But you would have time for a weird accent. Yeah. I mean, yes, I think there are probably needs. There are reasons for the law to protect you in your own home and what you can do in your own home. I get concerned about the gray area. Yeah. Okay. Here we go.

And, like, if somebody was lured into a home. What? Who? And then killed. What a weird thing to say. Anyway. So, you know, Byron Smith shot and killed these two intruders. Meanwhile, Haley and Nick's families were sick with worry. Haley and Nick were cousins, and they'd always been really close friends. They'd camp together as a family. They were all really outdoorsy and athletic. And like most families, they were all planning to get together for Thanksgiving. The Wednesday before Thanksgiving, they hit all of Little Falls, Minnesota's hot spots, of which there were none because the place has like 10,000 people in it. But they spent the night at a friend's apartment and the next day, which was Thanksgiving Day, Nick and Haley got up around 11 and they were like,

okay, see you guys later. They said they were going to head over to Nick's parents' house, and from there they'd all go to the grandma's house. But Nick and Haley never showed up at his mom's house. So Rachel, who was Nick's sister and Haley's cousin, and Kimberly, who was Nick's mom and Haley's aunt, were waiting around for them on Thanksgiving Day like, okay, where are they? day like, okay, where are they? They called and called and got no answer. And Rachel and Kimberly were immediately worried because Nick and Haley were not the type to screen phone calls. As it got later in the day, it started snowing. And they were like, okay, they obviously got into a terrible car wreck. Nick was only 17. He didn't have a lot of driving experience, period, let alone driving experience in the snow. Yeah.

So the families kept calling, and they posted on Facebook, like, hey, has anyone heard or seen of Haley and Nick? They drove all over town and around some back roads, hoping to spot the car somewhere. But Thanksgiving passed, and they didn't show up. And Friday came, and they were still nowhere to be found. So Rachel and her mom went to the police station and filed missing persons reports on Nick and Haley. Around that same time, a call came in to police. It was Byron Smith's neighbor. Byron had asked the neighbor to call the police and let them know that he'd shot two intruders and that their dead bodies were in his basement. So police showed up at this clear-cut shooting that was obviously protected by law,

and they were like, uh, wait, so this all went down yesterday. And you're just now calling us today. Do you remember his excuse? No, it's so weird. So, you know, the police are kind of like, what the fuck? Waited 24 hours with these dead bodies in your house? Why on earth? Byron had a perfectly reasonable explanation.

See, he knew that the police would be having Thanksgiving dinner with their families, and he didn't want to intrude on that about his little story about how he'd shot and killed these two people who broke into his house. So, you know, he just waited as kind of a courtesy to them. Okay, that's super fucking weird. Totally normal. What? We can all identify. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's not call 911 today on a holiday. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it was super fucking weird. Super duper weird but again this initially seemed like it was going to be pretty clear cut byron's security system showed surveillance footage of nick and hayley breaking into his house i mean it you know it captured the whole thing it showed nick there with his hood up you know kind of casing the place, looking in windows. It showed him break the window. It showed Haley walking by.

She had her hood up. She had her purse with her. What? Who brings their purse to a robbery? Burglary? I mean, I think it makes sense, don't you? Like, if you want to take stuff. Put stuff into it.

Yeah. All right, all right. I always assume they just brought, like, a big canvas bag with dollar sign on it. That's how they did it back in the day. Oh. Things have changed. These millennials, you know, they're nothing like cartoon characters, I say. So this was definitely a break-in, and, yeah, he shot them, but, again, that was okay, right?

Police took him into the station to get the story, and Byron told them everything I've just told you. He delivered the story in a stoic, emotionless voice. I mean, he'd killed two teenagers, which one might think would be kind of upsetting, but everyone— He'd had a day to get over it, Kristen. Oh, and that's all you need, right? One day. Uh-huh. Yeah, we all process things differently,

so everybody calm down. He told police about parking his car down the road a ways and killing the first intruder and then trying to kill the second intruder only to have her laugh at him. And he explained that when she laughed at him, he shot her with that.22 multiple times. He explained it saying, if you're trying to shoot someone and they laugh at you, you go

again. Which, according to Minnesota law, if someone laughs at you, you get a two-bit. Yeah. Yeah. All right. If that's the law. Strange but true. That's why Brandy can't go to Minnesota. Then he said that after a few shots, he thought she was dead. Oh, she wasn't. So, quote, I did a good, clean finishing shot. Oh, my gosh.

Okay, so this was when the interrogation tape got awkward. And it's just audio. But the sergeant was like, okay. So she was laying there. You'd already shot her. She didn't have a weapon. She wasn't threatening you. And Byron's like, well, I didn't know she didn't have a weapon. She wasn't threatening you. And Byron's like, well, I didn't know she didn't have a weapon.

I wasn't looking at her hands. And, you know, I thought she was threatening me. Uh-huh. Yeah, imagine how scary it would be to have, like, a teenage girl who'd been shot multiple times and was unarmed. Boy, she's about to come get you, right? Yeah. So, I don't know, man. Yeah, I don't know either. There was no doubt that Nick and Haley had broken into Byron's house, but Byron's talk of that clean finishing shot and the multiple gunshots all seemed to indicate that perhaps he'd

crossed the line into no longer being legally protected. Yeah, it sounds like it to me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I kind of think you get like one shot, right? You get one shot. Do not miss your chance to blow. Okay.

An opportunity comes once in a lifetime, yo. Yo. Jeez. At some point, as they looked through Byron's house, investigators discovered an audio recorder on a bookshelf in Byron's basement. You're making a face.

Yeah, this is the part where you abandon ship, right? Yep. Gee, wonder why. Stay tuned to find out. It contains six hours of audio recordings from Thanksgiving Day, including audio of the shootings. And that audio did not match up with the story that Byron told police. What do you mean? I wish I could tell you, but I just stopped.

And that's the end of the story. And that's it. It just gets worse from there. And you know, not in the mood. So that day, the Friday after Thanksgiving, Byron was arrested. And Nick and Haley's families were notified that the teenagers weren't missing. They were dead. The news was shocking for a couple reasons. When police said that Nick and Haley had been shot by Byron Smith, Nick's sister Rachel actually recognized the name. Nick had done some work for Byron the previous summer. And according to police, Nick had broken into Byron's house at least twice before.

Police also said that the car that Nick and Haley had been driving in that day contained prescription drugs that had been stolen from another house the previous day. Nick's mom, Kimberly, although she was obviously devastated about her son's death and her niece's death and surprised to hear that her son had broken into someone's home. I thought this was kind of admirable. She tried to kind of put herself in the shoes of the homeowner, and she was kind of like, well, that would be really scary to have someone break in. And, yeah, you know, you would want to protect yourself.

Which, man, that takes a big person to kind of have that. But in this episode of Dateline, it seemed like that was kind of her initial thing was, you know, trying to be fair. Word got out about this story. And, you know, of course, initially people were on Byron's side. But then more information began to trickle out. But then more information began to trickle out, and Byron was charged with two counts of first-degree murder. Some people were outraged by the charges. Outraged?

Out! Space. Raged. Oh, we should never record when I'm this tired. They were outraged, enraged. Hey, that's kind of cool, huh? Yeah, it's a fun thing you did there. I invented the word enraged. They were outraged.

They were enraged. They were upraged, downraged. Side- outraged. They were enraged. They were upraged, downraged. Side-raged. By the charges. Had to finish that out. But the prosecutor kept telling people, wait till you hear the whole story. Do not rush to judgment on this. And people were like, okay, sure.

We'll do exactly that. And they stopped being outraged and they became... Start getting real. How many people do you really think know the real world well enough to know our very, very

subtle, timey references to it. I bet there's upwards of six. Please come forward. Leading up to the trial, Judge Douglas Anderson ruled that the fact that Nick broke into Byron's house a month before Thanksgiving was irrelevant and would be inadmissible at trial. The judge said that the defense could introduce evidence that Byron's house had been broken into before, but since there was no evidence that Byron knew that Nick was the one who'd broken into his house before, then that fact was irrelevant and would not be admissible at trial. Okay.

I don't think that would be very helpful for the defense's case. What do you mean? To me, shooting someone who has broken into your house before, I don't know, makes it seem questionable, staged, lured perhaps. Oh, I don't think so. You don't? No, I think it's a great argument for the defense to be like he was terrified of this young man. And when he saw that young man coming down the stairs, it didn't matter that he wasn't armed. It didn't matter.

All these other factors. He shot him multiple times because it was so frightening because he knew he'd been there before. And the other thing, I don't know if I wrote this down. There was evidence that Nick had stolen two guns from Byron. Okay. And so I think there could be an argument. That would be a good argument, yeah. So there's this argument of like, I thought he'd pull my own gun on me.

Yeah, I do think that's a great argument. Thank you. I just made it. The judge also wouldn't allow evidence that Nick and Haley had broken into some other houses together. How do you feel about that? I feel like that'd be pertinent, but I know a lot of times previous bad acts are not allowed as evidence. See, I don't think it needs to be in because the fact that Nick and Haley broke into the house is not at all. There's a surveillance footage. You see them casing the place.

That makes sense. All right. Tell me I'm right and I'm really smart. Two for two, Kristen. Good, because I would have been outraged if you hadn't agreed with me. So with those pieces out of the way, in April of 2014, the trial began. Prosecutors wanted to show that these killings were premeditated. They said that Byron didn't just move his truck because he wanted to clean out the garage. They argued that on Thanksgiving Day, Byron was out talking to a neighbor when he saw someone drive by who he thought was responsible for the break-ins at his house. was responsible for the break-ins at his house. So he moved his truck to make it look like he wasn't home, hoping to lure that person to his house.

Then he went down to his basement, unscrewed a few light bulbs so that he wouldn't be easily seen, and what? Hid in the corner? Like, wasn't his chair, like, back? Yeah, so... Like, behind it his chair, like, back? Yeah, so. Like, behind stuff? The flow of this basement, you would hate it.

So there's the stairway, and then there's, like, this bookshelf that you kind of go, that's oddly placed, but it's not oddly placed if you've created yourself a little hidey hole. Yeah. So, yeah. He tucked himself into that corner where he had a bottle of water and two guns and energy bars and a tarp ready to go. What?

What's he going to do with the tarp? Well, what do you think? I don't know. That's why I'm asking. Is he going to shoot them on the tarp? I believe he dragged their bodies onto it. Oh. Okay. What? I don't know. That's why I'm asking. Is he going to shoot them on the tarp? I believe he dragged their bodies onto it. Oh.

Okay. What? I mean, I don't think that looks like self-defense. It's time to get a tarp out. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to bleed all over the new carpet. I assure you that carpet was not new.

I promise you. And, of course, he also had that audio recorder. The prosecution likened it to deer hunting. In deer hunting, you get in a deer stand with a bunch of supplies, and you sit, wait and you wait and you wait until finally a deer comes along and you shoot. Brandy's mm-hmm because she's like Elmer Fudd. She's always out hunting. Never not hunting. That's what Byron had done to Nick and Haley.

He'd been waiting for the moment that they'd come along. That was the prosecution's argument. Yeah, he was lying in wait. Mm-hmm. He's not just standing still. The best piece of evidence. Is that some dumb song that I don't know? It's a Hamilton reference.

Oh. Aaron Burr's not just standing still. He's lying in wait. Oh. Okay. It's the best line in all of Hamilton. What song is that from? Wait for Wait. Oh. Okay. It's the best line in all of Hamilton. What song is that from? Wait for it.

Oh. Which happens to be the best song in Hamilton. Wow. Wow. Okay. Okay. In my humble opinion. You know, back when you really loved your baby, Dear Theodosia was your favorite song.

Dear Theodosia is my second favorite song. Mm-hmm. Sorry, London. Sorry, London. My second favorite song. Mm-hmm. Sorry, London. The best piece of evidence that the prosecution had was the audio tape. And they played some of it for the jury, and it was disturbing.

Twelve minutes of it? Okay. Did they play twelve minutes of it? I think they played way more than that. Oh, what are the 12 minutes? So the 12 minutes on Elm Street, I think that what that means is it was he shot Nick and then there were 10 minutes. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, okay.

I got you. I got you. A lot of it is just Byron sitting in his basement whispering to himself like the world's biggest creep. Have you heard? I sure have. I made the mistake of getting on YouTube and listening to a bunch of it. Yeah. It was like the last thing I should have done yesterday.

Yeah. Besides vote for Trump. Yes. He even did some role play. Before Nick and Haley even broke in, you can hear him on the audio recorder practicing calling a defense attorney. He says, I realize I don't have an appointment, but I would like to see one of the lawyers here. Half an hour before Nick and Haley broke in, Byron whispered to his little recorder, Oh my gosh.

And then later, he shot Haley in the left eye. Oh my gosh. Yeah, starting to sound like serious premeditation, am I right? Definitely premeditation. I'm also wondering why the, I feel like the defense could have gone the way of some mental instability here. I think they thought their best case was self-defense and defense of your domicile. I can't remember what it's—dwelling dweller's defense is what it's called. It's the triple D. Yeah. I don't remember what it's... Dwelling Dwellers Defense is what it's called. It's the triple D. Yeah.

I don't think it is. Yeah, Guy Fieri represents you for free. Then, of course, there was the section where Nick and Haley were killed. And, wow, you know, Byron didn't sound terrified at all to me. You hear the glass break, and you hear Nick walk around, and you hear Byron shoot Nick three times. And then you hear him say, in a calm, satisfied voice, You're dead.

Oh my gosh. Ten minutes later, you hear Haley whisper, Nick? Ten minutes later, you hear Haley whisper, Nick? And of course, Byron tried to claim that Haley laughed at him when his gun didn't fire, which, why even make that up? I know, what a weird thing. As if the police are going to be like, oh, she laughed at you, I see. Yeah. Well, be on your way. But that's not what happened.

But that's not what happened. Instead, what it sounded like to me is he tried to shoot at her, but his gun jammed, and he said, oh, I'm sorry about that. And you hear Haley say, oh, my God, and you hear her scream, and then you hear her being shot multiple times. and afterward, Byron says, bitch. Ooh. Then he says, cute. I'm sure she thought she was a real pro. Wow. Yeah.

Two hours after the shooting, he says, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal. I felt like I was cleaning up a mess, not like spilled food, not like vomit, not even like diarrhea, the worst mess possible. And I was stuck with it. In some tiny little respect, in some tiny little respect, I was doing my civic duty. If the law enforcement system couldn't handle it, I had to do it. I had to do it. What the fuck? Mm-hmm. So one thing I want to pause and say, you know, he claims his house was broken into six times. Uh-huh. And obviously there's evidence that Nick had broken in before.

I'm wondering how many times it actually happened. Yeah. And how many times he just wanted to do this. A few minutes later, he says, they weren't human. I don't see them as human. I see them as vermin, social mistakes,

social problems. I don't see them as human. This bitch was going to go through her life destroying things for other people, thieving, robbing, drug use. Okay. Self-defense, right? Yeah, just a real scared guy.

Yeah. Didn't want to do it. Had to. At what point is the defense, do you not just say, I give up, I go home? Yeah. The prosecution also played Byron's interrogation with the police where he talked about killing Haley with that good, clean, finishing shot. They also called a doctor who testified that Nick had been shot three times and Haley was shot six times. Oh, my gosh.

When the defense took over, they, of course, argued that what Byron had done was protected by law and that he'd been protecting himself. This was self-defense. This was defense of dwelling. The double D. Oh. They dropped a D and Guy Fieri. Yeah. Sorry, it just wasn't going to work out.

And they took the sunglasses off the back of their head. And they let that bleach grow out. Yeah. More natural look. They kept the Hawaiian shirt, though. Yeah, all right. Because it the Hawaiian shirt, though. Yeah, right. Because it's Minnesota. Makes sense, right?

You know, a little taste of the tropical. They also said that Byron had been terrified. He wasn't waiting for burglars to show up so that he could shoot. Burglars? I'm sorry. I'm so, oh, I'm a mess. Hang on. He wasn't waiting for burglars to show up.

Them burglars been following me around everywhere I go. Them burglars. Damn burglars burgled my house. They also said that Byron had been terrified. He wasn't waiting for burglars to show up so that he could shoot them. He was terrified of intruders. And that's why he set up that security system. and that's why he set up that security system, and that's why he set up that audio recorder.

It was just another way to protect himself, Brandy. He should have thrown that audio recorder in the garbage disposal. That's... Well, maybe not the best choice, but that's amazing to me, too. It's like, why on earth would you keep that? Yeah.

And a whole day to get rid of it. Defense attorney Steve Meshbesher said he was afraid that he might be killed. He did it in case he was shot and killed in his house, and the police would have some evidence to use, and the family would be able to find the perpetrators. It's extremely... Okay. That's the best argument you can make in this situation, I think. Okay, without the recording, though. Yeah, yeah.

The recording does not back that up at all. No. No. Whew. The defense tried to argue that this tape wasn't devastating to their case, which, are we in an upside-down world? I don't know. They said the tape didn't reveal a cold, calculated murder, but a man who was scared.

He was out of his mind with fear, Brandy. Take, for example, the part of the tape where he killed Nick and Haley, but later he whispered, I feel a little bit safe. Not totally safe. I'm still shaking a bit. Are you ready for the real reason that Byron waited a day to call police? Skeptical, Brandy is skeptical. Ready? Okay, the real reason he waited a day to call police was that he had been so afraid. Oh, he'd been paralyzed with fear?

He was so afraid that there would be a third intruder or a fourth intruder lurking in the backyard or in the hallway that he hid in the closet in his home until the fear died down enough to call the cops. In his closing argument, Prosecutor Pete Orput reiterated the evidence and told the jury, this is the easiest case of my career. No, I'm just kidding. He said, you know what was on his mind.

You know this wasn't self-defense. In his closing argument, defense attorney Steve Meshbesher said that this was a case about courage. I'm sorry, what? Yeah. Yeah. The hero that no one asked for and the hero that does not exist. Homes are where people should feel safe. But Nick and Haley had parked their car, they'd put their hoods up, they'd cased the house, they'd broken in. They weren't invited in. Byron hadn't asked them to come over. They'd broken in. That was their decision.

I do agree that home is where you should feel safe. Well, of course. Yeah. And obviously, they broke in. Like, that is not... Not up for debate. Like, yeah. Shouldn't have done that. you know what those first three shots when Byron shot Nick those should have been a warning to Haley but she came in anyway so I thought that was interesting because I also wondered why did she come into the house after hearing those shots the defense um I believe they argued that they think Haley went in because she assumed that Nick had fired the gun.

I mean, who knows? It could just be that. That's a good argument. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could just be that she just wasn't thinking straight. I don't know.

At any rate, the defense said simply that if Nick and Haley hadn't committed felony burglary, they would be alive today. By the way, throughout this trial, the defense made several motions for mistrial on the grounds that they were, you know, real pissed about the stuff that the judge had deemed inadmissible. Also on the grounds that they had a terrible case. But, of course, that was all denied. They didn't really do that last part. I'm just having fun. Before they went into deliberation, the judge instructed the jury to consider whether Byron Smith's decision to shoot Nick and Haley was reasonable in light of the danger. And whether he perceived the gravity of the whole situation in a reasonable way.

the gravity of the whole situation in a reasonable way. In other words, we all know that in Minnesota, when someone breaks into your home, you don't have to retreat. You have certain rights. But was what he did reasonable? See, that's the thing. I don't think I think it crossed the line of reason. Absolutely. Absolutely.

It crossed the line. I think this is so it's funny. People really debated this one. I don't think there's a whole hell of a lot to debate when you've got six hours of audio. Yeah, I think the audio for sure. I think the – yeah, I think the debate comes in with like, okay, what is the letter of the law? They broke into his home so he has the right to defend himself. At what point is he going beyond defending himself?

I would say as a general rule, anything beyond one shot, right? I mean, you've shot someone once. Yeah. I don't know. And they're clearly – and they're not armed. Oof. What do you think? I don't know.

I don't know. What do you think? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, in a situation, I would say, where someone really feels threatened, because I don't believe that that's what happened here. No, no, no. I don't think he ever felt threatened. In a situation where someone really feels threatened, I do think that there's a possibility that they could fire more than one shot before the fear goes away. Sure.

the fear goes away. Sure. And I think, yeah, I think that's the concern of where, how do you make the call? Because it could be on a case by case basis. It is on a case by case basis. Right, that's what I'm saying. So like, it's interpreting the law and figuring out where the gray area is. That's where the debate comes in. I think it's so difficult. Not difficult in this case. I agree. I don't think the audio recording in this case makes it not up for question at all. I think also

shooting Haley six times including the clean finishing shot, that's not necessary at all. Oh. Ugh. The jury deliberated for less than four hours, and they found him guilty. He was sentenced to life in prison, and afterward they said that the recordings in his interrogation to them showed that he'd gone way beyond what the law permits a person to do.

Yeah. But don't worry. Byron appealed. Of course he did. And his case went all the way to the Minnesota Supreme Court. Don't you know. And the defense essentially argued that the judge had made a ton of errors at trial. He had excluded witnesses that could have testified about the other times that Nick and Haley broke into his home, and the judge erred in not allowing key

information like Nick allegedly stealing two guns from Byron's house. But the Minnesota Supreme Court didn't agree. But don't worry, we're not done here, because in 2018, Byron's defense attorneys filed a federal appeal. So Byron's trial at the very beginning had been briefly closed to the public so that the judge could explain his earlier ruling. And in my opinion, this part is super boring. So the bottom line is it seems like that was a bad call. But whether that was such a bad call that Byron now deserves a new trial is, you know, up for debate. I couldn't find anything on that.

So I think it's safe to assume that he's not getting a new trial. But, you know, I put a solid three minutes of effort into finding that information. So I could be wrong. But this case got a lot of people talking. And it's interesting. a lot of people talking. And it's interesting, the bottom line most experts come down to is that under the law in Minnesota,

an initial shooting when someone breaks in might be justified, but shooting an intruder multiple times can't be justified because by that point, the threat is gone. And it's no longer self-defense. Also, the experts say that this guy was a big, creepy weirdo who clearly premeditated

the whole thing. And that's not just me talking. That's the experts. That's what the experts said. All the experts. Big, creepy weirdo. They use those exact words. And that's the story of a man who defended his property.

Thanks. I hated it. So one of the things I vaguely remember from law school is these stand your ground, these defending your domicile, these laws are so, ooh. Well, like the Castle Doctrine is where it's based in, and that creeps me out, makes me uncomfortable is one of my memories is that we would talk about how, especially in more rural states with a lot of farmland, people would leave their houses for long periods of time, and it was a big problem they'd get broken into. So what some people started doing was, like, jerry-rigging shotguns to shoot people when the doors would open. Do you already know about this? No.

Okay, so one of the reasons, and for a while, you know, that was just like castle doctrine. That's law. You can do that. But what happened was it was a bunch of, like, kids coming in. Or, like, it would be an accidental thing. Not everyone who goes into your house is there to do harm. Right. Ugh.

Anyway, the whole thing makes me super uncomfortable. Yeah. You know what I love is when you do a case that makes us all feel super uncomfortable when we're already feeling, like, super uncomfortable about the world around us. You're welcome. You wanted to listen to this for an escape? Too bad. All right.

Let's talk about an average middle class family. Okay. I watched a show on this. I'm not going to tell you what show I watched until the end. Snapped. Kristen, I'm not going to tell you what show I watched. Okay. It's a show that is on TV that covers crimes.

That's all you need to know. Stop guessing. What's your next guess? I don't know. You like a lot of the Oxygen shows. I got to say. Killer Couples? Well, that really wouldn't fit with what you've told me

about this nice, normal, middle-class family. So that would be certainly true. Maybe it's one of those, like, what was that one? Obsession, Dark Desires, or whatever. Yeah, who wrote that title? I know, it's terrible. That was would be certainly a show. Maybe it's one of those like what was that one? Obsession. Dark desires. Oh God. Or whatever. Yeah. Who wrote that title?

I know. It's terrible. That was a good case though. Okay. Anyway so much of this comes from a show and I will cite it at the end.

Here we go. The Lunnies were just your average middle class family. Chris and Tina had met when they were teenagers working in the same grocery store.

Chris was a stock boy. Tina was a cashier. The two had dated, fallen in love, and married in their early 20s. The couple, who both came from blue-collar backgrounds, worked hard to set themselves up for the future. Chris went to technical school for some kind of IT something or other

and secured himself a good job. Oh, wow, the detail in this story is amazing. He secured himself a good job as a civilian working for a police department before eventually transitioning to a private sector job. Tina took a job in, like, a finance department or, or like bookkeeping or something like that. Unclear. But she worked in financing and then eventually kind of parlayed the skills she learned at that job into a career as a financial planner. The couple bought a nice home in Fairfield, New Jersey, which is a suburb about 40 miles outside of Manhattan.

No, it's about 40 minutes outside of Manhattan. Okay. And they had a couple kids. Tina fell into motherhood very naturally. She was an extremely hands-on mom, always running a kid to practice or to an appointment or to a play date, whatever they needed. You know, you have not said one of my favorite Brandy sayings. What?

In these stories, you usually say, you know, you'll say a year, they welcomed a new baby into their home. And it sounds so formal and nice. It almost seems like royalty. Do you have that in the story? I don't have it in the story. Damn it. Can you give me that? Okay, so in the way that this story

was told to me by my good friend on this TV show I watch, the kids are just kind of like ambiguous figures in the back room. Also, they weren't welcomed into the home at all. They came in the back door. Okay, now, that's

not sexual. Any whooser. They had a couple kids. Tina's like a natural mom, very hands-on mom, whatever. Somehow she was also the perfect wife. And really, when it gets down to it, she was the head of the household. She took control of the family's finances, their schedules, really everything all the way down to vacation planning.

As a proud supporter of the patriarchy, I can't get behind this at all. And Chris was happy to let her do it, though truth be told, she likely would not have had it any other way. Like, that was her thing. She was in charge. Maybe bordered on what? Control freak. Okay, okay.

I feel very seen right now, alright? Chris constantly told his... I've got a C word for you, too. Chris constantly told his wife how lucky he was to have her, how much he loved her, how lucky the kids were to have her. Things were good.

Things were so good, in fact, that the Lunnies asked Tina's mother, Marie Zoppy, to come live with them. Marie had been widowed when Tina was pretty young, like 17, I think. And now Tina wanted to take care of her aging mother, make sure someone was around if she needed anything. So she actually had an apartment in the basement with her own entrance and everything, and she could see her grandkids anytime she wanted. Like I said, things were good. And the Lunnies were just your average middle-class family. You know what I would love more than this?

Until they weren't! Okay. My wish. What? If I ran one of these shows, April Fool's Day, I would have a show like this. It would be like, they were just a nice, normal, middle-class family. You get all this background.

Yeah. You get to the end. It's just a story about a nice middle-class family. You get all this background. Yeah. You get to the end. It's just a story about a nice middle-class family. And then nothing happens. And you've just spent 45 minutes learning about some boring, nice family. Really? Chris Lunny was at work on July 23, 2009, when he received a frantic call from his wife, Tina. She said, you need to come home.

My mother killed herself. Oh. Chris rushed home and entered Marie's apartment. There he found his wife. She was in hysterics, and his mother-in-law lay on the floor, unresponsive, and there was a suicide note nearby. It read, tell the kids I love them, you don't need me anymore. Chris asked Tina if she'd call 911, and she said no, so he made the call. Now, what followed here was the calmest 911 call I've ever heard, and out of context, I would say that it seemed super suspect. However, I watched this show on this case, and Chris Lunny was interviewed extensively. And he speaks in that exact same extremely calm manner throughout. So I think maybe he's just like a really soft-spoken guy. Okay, okay.

So anyway, he calls 911, and he's like, hey, my wife found her mother on the floor. And the dispatcher's like, okay, is she conscious? And Chris goes, he said, my wife found her mother on the floor. And then when asked if she's conscious, he goes, I don't know. I didn't check. Oh, dear. And the dispatcher goes, is she breathing? And he's like, let me check.

Hey, hon. Hon, is she breathing? What? And you could hear his wife in the background, and she's crying, and she says no. And so he's like, no, not not breathe in. And they dispatched an ambulance and whatever. I'm exaggerating this, but only slightly. OK.

He was very calm. Not starting with like the most relevant information. Didn't he used to work for a police department? He did. Chris and he did I.T. for a police department. He wasn't taking calls in the dispatch center. But wouldn't the proximity at least like kind of clue you

into what they might need to know? You think he just absorbed stuff by osmosis? Well, I mean, I'm sorry. Oh, I shouldn't say anything more. But like, if you're trying to get somebody out there right away,

do you say my mother-in-law is on the floor or do you say she attempted suicide? Well, yeah. I mean, I guess you'd probably want to say that. It's not what he chose to say. Okay.

He just kept it together cool as a cucumber. Okay. So police arrive on the scene and sure enough, there's Marie Zoppy on the floor of her apartment. Super calm Chris standing there.

Hysterical Tina is there. And she tells them, my mother took her own life. Here's the suicide note. And they're like, okay, all right. And so they're like looking at the scene. And she's laying on the floor. There's like a small amount of blood like has trickled out of her nose. She's laying face down.

And so police flip her over. And they notice a tie is around her neck, like a silk necktie. Right. Right. And so they're like looking around for a place where she might have attached that to. Right. To essentially hang herself. And there is none. And so they're like, you know, whispers are starting to spread and they're like, this doesn't look like a suicide, guys. Like, this looks pretty suspicious. Like, let's lock everything down here. And so they quickly get Chris and Tina out of the scene and they start investigating.

And they take Chris and Tina down to the station to make videotaped statements. Chris says he had no reason to believe that his mother-in-law was suicidal. Like there was nothing going on that led him to believe that. She hadn't said anything weird. She hadn't been acting weird, you know, whatever. And then in a separate room, Tina is talking to police, and she walks them through how she discovered her mother's body. She said that day she had gotten up with Chris. He had left for work. And then she had taken the kids to like a summer day camp.

And then she'd come home to have coffee with her mother. Her mother never came up for coffee. It was like something they did every morning before Tina went to work. When her mom didn't come up for coffee, she went down to her apartment and her apartment door was locked, which is super unusual. And so she knocked on the door and her mother didn't come and she didn't have a key to the external door. Oh, really? Apparently not. Okay. And so she kind of walked around the outside of the house and looked in a window that looked into her mother's apartment. And she saw her mother laying on the floor, kind of right in front of her couch. And

she thought, oh my gosh, she's fallen off the couch or she's fallen and broken her hip and she hasn't been able to, you know, call us for help. And so she's like banging on the window and trying to get her mom's attention to get her to like look at her and nothing. And so she keeps like walking around the outside of the house and trying windows. And finally she finds one that's unlocked. And she crawls through the window into her mother's apartment and runs over to her, sees the tie around her neck, and then nearby sees the note. And that's when she calls Chris and says, my mother killed herself. Police are like, okay, great, you know, sure. Had your mother said anything that would make you think that she was considering ending

her life, that she was battling with depression, that she was suicidal, you know, anything? And she said, not really. She said her mom had made, in like the past couple weeks, had made like a few weird comments about not being needed. Mm-hmm. But that was it. So they let the Lennies go home and, you know, they don't really let them in yet on the fact that they think that this is really odd. Yeah. They want to wait until they get autopsy results back.

And so an investigation begins. that this is really odd. Yeah. They want to wait until they get autopsy results back. And so an investigation begins. The medical examiner determines that the cause of death is, in fact, strangulation. But there was no sign that the tie had ever been tied to anything in the apartment. Yeah. Which means that she had been murdered, not that she had taken her own life. It also revealed that Marie had fought. She had five broken ribs.

Oh, wow. Oh, gosh. How old was Marie? 81. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Additionally, the autopsy led to the discovery that Marie had been dead for a full day before the police had been called. Was it a holiday?

See, what happened is it was Thanksgiving. Oh, yeah. And we all know you just don't call the police on Thanksgiving. That's right. No, it was not a holiday. It was July 22nd was the day that the police did not get called. And so the police were like, oh, shit, like this is looking like a lot of foul plays happening here. And so they start looking into the Lunnies.

And holy shit, what did they find? Were they not a nice, normal family? Well, from the outside, it sure looked like it. But there were some problems lurking beneath the surface. Okay, you don't have to be so creepy. You guys, she just shimmied like the jello on the plate. Jelly on a plate. You're right. Sorry.

I'm the one who taught you those lyrics. So the family was broke. They were seven months behind on mortgage payments. Their electricity had actually been shut off for unpaid bills, but somehow had been turned back on illegally at the box. Oh. IT guy. Yeah. They had a mountain

of credit card debt. Much of it was in collections. And Chris had a $36,000 inheritance that had been set aside for the kids' college fund. It was completely gone. Oh.

Not only that, but there was a vacation planned with a bunch of neighbors to the Outer Banks in North Carolina. And Tina had been the one planning it and booking it through, like, a vacation planning service. And final payment had been due for the house that they were renting for the giant for the big group it's like a really big house you know right and tina hadn't been able to make the final payment and they kept calling and calling and saying like you're gonna lose your reservation if you don't make the payment and finally like the day that they believed Marie was killed,

the police weren't called until the next day, Tina had made the final payment on the vacation booking using her mother's credit card. Oh, God. Oh, this is grim. She had also made large payments to her creditors using her mother's credit cards. So detectives are like, oh, this is, so it looks like Tina killed her mother to cover up her money problems. Tried to stage the scene to look like a suicide. And so they're like, okay, we need to bring the Lunnies back in for more questioning.

Like, how much did Chris know about this? Is Chris involved? Is this, like, a thing they planned together? And they were literally, like, getting up to walk out the door to go track down the Lunnies when in walks Chris to the police department to file a missing persons report on his wife. Whoa. Yes. The day before, she'd, like, gotten up in the morning,

said she was going to go get Dunkin' Donuts for the family, and never came back. She'd been missing for, like, a day and a half by this point. That's mean for two reasons. Because you claimed you were going to bring back donuts, and then you just didn't come back? Yeah, if she said she was bringing me Dunkin' Donuts coffee,

I wouldn't be so heartbroken, but... I like Dunkin' Donuts coffee. Oh, well, you've revealed something terrible about yourself. So they... Now we have a person who they believe is a suspect in a murder,

but she's missing. So does that mean who they believe is a suspect in a murder, but she's missing. So does that mean maybe she's not a suspect and maybe Chris did something to his wife and to his mother-in-law? Nah. No? Nah. So they sit Chris down and they question him to find out how much he knew about what was going on with the family's finances. It turns out he had no idea. He had no idea they were broke.

He had no idea that his inheritance was gone. He thought they had a great savings account. He thought they were planning for their children's futures. Like he was – his money – his paycheck was going in the bank every day and their bank records are every week. You know, when I'm, you know, I don't think he got paid every day, but boy, that'd be nice. Every time he was getting paid, his paycheck was going in the bank, like direct deposit was being withdrawn the very next day. Withdrawn? Withdrawn. Wow. And it looked like Tina was covering that up by spending his inheritance. That's what was covering the bills here and there.

Like, you know, she'd let things slide until the mortgage company said they were going to go on foreclosure. And then she'd pay as much as they required to stop the foreclosure proceedings. Like, oh, God. Yeah. And Chris had no idea. That's terrible. Yeah. So they have to tell him, first of all, we don't think your mother-in-law killed herself.

Yeah. We think she was murdered. And we think your wife did it. Oh, my gosh. And we think she did it to cover up all of her lies and to get to her money. How do you recover from something like this? Okay. He is, as I said, interviewed on this show a lot.

And he's like on the brink of tears the whole time. And I just feel for this man horribly. Yeah. I mean, oh, God, you'd be so blindsided. Yes. So they start trying to track down Tina. Now she's like on the run is what they assume. And they track her movements the day that she left the house claiming to go to Dunkin' Donuts.

She never went to Dunkin' Donuts. Liar. She walked to Target and bought a bottle of water. This just shows how stupid she is with money. Right. Get yourself a Contigo from your home. So one of the things that Chris says on this episode is that his wife was not spendy. She didn't buy things for herself. She only bought things for the kids. She didn't go get her hair done. She didn't get her nails done. She wasn't into makeup. Like she wasn't spendy on herself.

She did spoil the kids. Maybe she wanted them to have all the things that she never had. They were in competitive sports and they took lessons and whatever. But as far as being like a shopper or anything like that, she was not. So what did she do with all of that money? So as they're tracking her activity, she leaves the Target, she gets on a bus, she goes to Atlantic City, and they have footage of her gambling at the Trump Casino. And so that's what they think.

They think she had a major gambling problem and gambled away his paychecks. At the Trump Casino. And so that's what they think. They think she had a major gambling problem and gambled away his paychecks. That's why they were being withdrawn. That would make sense. Yeah. So they track her to Atlantic City. The police go there. She's gone by the time they get there.

Like three days go by. They don't know where she is. And then they get a call from someone who had seen the missing persons report on her and says, that woman that I've seen on TV, I think she's walking down the street right now in my neighborhood. Oh, wow. It's like 530 in the morning. And it's just like blocks from her own house. Oh, give me a break. Yeah, and so police go.

And sure enough, there's Tina Lunny just walking down the street. She's got a backpack. In her backpack, there are five, I think five letters that she's written out to her children and family members, and they're all suicide notes. Oh. So they take her into custody, obviously, and they take her down and set her down in an interrogation room. And they set up a video recorder and she sits down and she says, so do you want me to tell you what happened to my mother? Yeah, please. And they're like, yeah, yeah, absolutely, please. And so for like 45 minutes, she just sits there and walks them through what happened.

She said. How long had she been missing? Like three days. Okay. Okay. She sits down and she says, that morning I went down to her apartment and she had this rash on back, and I was putting some cream on it for her. And I was just sitting there rubbing that cream on. I looked over, and I saw Chris's jacket and tie sitting on her, like, side table.

I don't even know what happened. And I just grabbed that tie, and I did it. And the police go, you did what? And she said, you're going to make me say it? Well, yeah. And they're like, yeah. And she's like, I strangled my poor mother. Wow.

Yeah. And she says, I have no idea why I did it. And they're like, okay. Had something gone on between you and your mother? Had you guys had some kind of argument? And she goes, no. I swear to God, strike me down, no. That's the most bizarrest part.

Oh, I know I don't like it. And they're like, okay. All right. So Tina, you know, we know we've been, we've been looking, you know, into you and your family. And we know that you guys are having some financial troubles and, and things are really bad. And she goes, okay, let's not get crazy. I wouldn't say they're bad. Wow. And the detectives are like, okay, okay. I think that's such a weird reaction.

I think it just shows that she still thought that she had control over the situation or wanted to believe she still had control over the finances. But how? It's so weird to me. I'm going to admit that I strangled my mom. But no, no, no. Don't you dare accuse me of being in a bad financial situation. No, no.

And so they ask her a few more questions. I mean, her interrogation is only like 45, like the tape's only like 45 minutes long. And it ends with her, you know, they're like, okay, well, thank you for, you know, sharing that information with us. And they're about to place her under arrest. And she goes, can I go home now? Oh, God. And they're like, no. Oh, yeah, you just admitted to murder, but sure.

And so she is arrested and charged with the murder of her mother. At her arraignment a couple of days later, a few days later, she recanted her confession and pled not guilty. I bet she did. said that that confession was given in a under duress, that she was in a confused state, that she was reacting to the trauma of discovering her mother's dead body, and that she had fabricated that story. Okay. Mm-hmm. I think that's bullshit.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so she pled not guilty. So this goes to trial, and the prosecution lays out the whole story that she told. Chris has to get up there on the stand and talk about how she'd stolen basically all the family's money or gambled it away or however you want to put it and that he had no idea. By the time this goes to trial, they have divorced. And he just cries on the stand and like, oh, I just feel terrible for him. Yeah.

And he reads the letters that were found in her possession that day, the suicide notes that she had left for her family. Basically, she told her son, Mommy was sick. I'm happy now with Nana. I'm watching you. You know, I love you so much. Please try out for basketball and softball.

Love, Mom. In a letter to Chris, she says, I'm so sorry for lying to you. I can't handle it anymore. It had also come out by then that she'd been having an affair with a police officer. Oh, God. So it makes no impact on the case whatsoever, but there's kind of a weird connection. So she had been having this, like, five-year-long affair. Five years.

Okay, but it seems she—so she admits to it, but she says they only met, like, twice a year every year for a couple of hours. No. I know. I think that's super weird. The police officer happens to be the exact police officer that Chris made the missing persons report to when he came in to report his wife missing. Isn't that super strange? Yeah. And so he reads a letter where she admits, you know, that she had been having this affair and the lies had just caught up to her and she just couldn't handle anymore.

And so she snapped and killed her mother and now she was going to take her own life. And she was so sorry and she loved him and whatever. So the prosecution lays out that whole case. They play her confession in its entirety, which the defense fought hard to keep out of the trial because she recanted it, but it was allowed in. And then the defense gets up and they lay out their case. Tina Lunny didn't murder her mother. What you saw on that tape was a woman who was mentally ill, just not diagnosed yet. She had bipolar disorder. And as a result of a manic episode, she fabricated that confession after having all of the pressure of the financial

problems the family was having, the affair that she had been keeping from her husband, and it just manifested itself after finding her mother dead into some kind of mental break where she confessed to a crime that she hadn't committed. Is that the way that works? I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so either. So they brought on, you know, an expert who said, yes, I examined Tina following her arrest, and I have since diagnosed her with bipolar disorder. And what you see on that tape is a manic episode. It's, you know, he points out several things.

The fact that she asked if she can go home afterwards is an example of this. The fact that she just says, I strangled my poor mother. These are all examples of an undiagnosed mental illness. In closing arguments, the prosecution's like, this woman murdered her mother and she told you that she murdered her mother. murdered her mother and she told you that she murdered her mother. What happened that day was that everybody was going to find out that she had been lying. She was going to have to cancel the vacation for the whole group of neighbors that were going and everything was going to come out. So her solution instead of that happening was to murder her mother and pay it off with her mother's credit card. They were able to play like a snippet of a customer service call where Tina calls the number on the back of the credit card and pretends to be her mother to get like a PIN number.

Uh-huh. Oh, that's chilling. Yeah, it's really bad. In the defense's closing arguments, they said, listen, Tina Lunny is a bad business person, and she may even be a thief, but that doesn't make her a killer. She didn't kill her mother.

Somebody broke into that apartment that day and killed her mother. For what reason? Exactly. And that's what the prosecution on their rebuttal, on their like rebuttal is like, okay, so we're just supposed to believe some random person broke in there, took nothing, has no motivation when we have a very clear motive available here. The jury deliberated for like a day and a half. Really?

Yeah. It was a jury of six men and six women, and they deliberated for a day and a half before returning the verdict of guilty. The judge sentenced her to 40 years in prison, of which she must serve 34 before becoming eligible for parole. The judge said that Tina's actions were calculating and he called the crime heinous and depraved.

They did like a kind of like a Jodi Arias situation where they she had her hair pulled back in this like really tight bun and she wore very conservative clothing. She wasn't like a flashy dresser to begin with but she had like this big hair and she was like conservative clothing. She wasn't like a flashy dresser to begin with, but she had like, you know, she had like this big hair

and she was like this little tiny woman and was, you know, attractive and bubbly and whatever. And they like, you know, and she just- Toned it down a bit. They did, they toned it down a lot. And she just kind of sat there stoically when she was sentenced to 40 years in prison. Her sister-in-law said after the sentencing, she said, it's been a nightmare.

I describe it as being in a horror movie. She said, we're all traumatized. Now the family is going to heal, and we hope that Tina will heal too. Chris didn't give a statement at that time, but he has since said that he thinks justice was served. Chris said the hardest thing in all of this was telling his children. He said, so his children were like pre-teens, I think, when this happened. And he said initially he just kind of made something up. He couldn't handle telling them the truth. Took a page out of his wife's book.

Just lie about it. Yeah. He said that their mom and grandma had gotten into a fight and that grandma had fallen and died. Don't lie to your kids about that. I know. I know. I think he was dealing with so much though.

Yeah. I'm not. I'm not. Shitting on him. Yeah about that. I know. I know. I think he was dealing with so much, though. Oh, no, I don't. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not. Shitting on him. Yeah, I didn't know. I just think in a situation like that, you get yourself a counselor and you get all the help you can, but you have to tell them the truth because they're going to find out. Yeah. Tina has appealed her sentence, but nothing has come of that. And she remains, she remains in prison today.

And that's the story of just, you know, your normal middle-class family. These cases where someone tells these lies on top of lies on top of lies, and then decides the way out of them is to just murder someone. Yeah. They just boggle my mind. Me too. Me too. It makes you wonder how many murders are just, like, something stupid like this. Yeah. Well, and that's what— I'm in too deep.

No other options. And that's one of the things Chris said. Chris said she could have come to any of us and said, I have a problem. You know, I've done this. I've messed up. We're broke. Yeah. I would have gotten her help if it was a gambling problem.

We would have figured out the financial stuff. Right. Right. Murdering her mother was never the answer, obviously. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. Just strangle her with her husband's tie.

Do you think that the way she tells it where she just like was sitting there putting a salve on and she did it, do you think that that's true or do you think it was more calculated than that? I don't know that it matters. I think she was definitely had thought about that as a possibility, as a solution to her problem. Yeah. And I think if that's on your mind, like this is a possible solution to my problem, then, yeah, you might sit there and think, oh, look at that tie over there. I don't believe that. I think she probably planned the whole thing. Well, that's what I think, too.

Well, and it's silly, but, like, why was the tie in her mother's apartment? That's what makes me think that it was. That's a good point. Yeah, that is weird. Premeditated and that she brought the tie with her. Yeah. Yeah. And that I think that makes it even darker.

I think she probably said, hey, mom, let me put that salve on for you. Yeah. And then strangled her. Oh, very dark. Very dark. Yes. Boy, what a wonderful story. You're welcome. What a wonderful story. You're welcome. You know, if you can't get enough of these fun stories, and who could blame you? Yeah. You can join us on Patreon, guys. At the $5 level, you get a bonus episode every month.

How many bonus episodes we got on there? Are we up to 16 yet? Yeah. Man. That's a lot. Are we at 17? That seems a little high let's see let's see shall we okay do it i'm doing it right now doing it and yeah we have 16 episodes you know we'll have this month what our 17th bonus episode my goodness so join us there at the five dollar level for that um also you get into our discord which is like a 90s style chat room at the seven dollar level you

get all that plus a monthly bonus video you get a sticker with our lovely autographs on it the sticker the autographs are not on the sticker yeah i'm sorry to mislead. The $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level. You get all that, plus ad-free episodes a day early. That's right. And 10% off on merch.

We have merch? We sure do. Tell the people about it. We've got shirts. We've got stickers. Upwards of six stickers. End of list. You guys, ho's coming soon.

Yeah, we're working on it. Oh, kind of intriguing, huh? Well, just calm down. All right. Yeah, all right. Speaking of the Discord, you want to take some questions? I sure do. I said that so weird.

Sure do. I sure do. Woo-hoo. Oh, Leanne Barrier asked, would y'all ever audition for Supermarket Sweep post-COVID, of course? Fuck yes. Nah. Kristen. Go with Norm.

Okay, Norm and I are going on Supermarket Sweep. Please do. You get to meet Leslie Jones. I, too, love Leslie Jones. I would sit in the audience. You get to run wild through the aisles. I don't like the pressure. I don't like the competition. I don't like the competition.

If somebody wanted something really badly, I'd be like, go ahead. Okay. And you would murder me. That would be how you would murder me. You finally got on a game show, and I messed it up by not caring. Yeah, that'd be the end of me. Okay, so Norm and I will do it. We'll rack up all the time.

Heartbreaking. He has to do the super sweep at the end to make sure we win it because he can, you know, he'll run. He's a sprinter. I know because he can do that speed walking. You guys should see. He's like an Olympic level speed walker, guys. Okay.

I don't know that he'll allow this, but we should post a video of Norm speed walking. It is alarming. Those hips are swiveling. Swinging. I mean, he will run you down and not break a sweat. That's exactly right. So he does the big sweep at the end. And then we get to the round where you get to solve the riddles.

Yeah. I'm getting so excited just thinking about it. Okay, Norm and I are going on supermarket sweep. Wait, would you go with Norm or Casey? Because Casey would be good. That's not Casey's thing. Okay, okay. Casey's like a thinker trivia.

She's not a doer. She's not going to be swinging those hips through the aisles. No, she's not speed walking. Okay, okay. Yeah, I got to go. I think Norm and I would kill it. I think you would too. Ooh, Fiery1TheDairyBoy asks, have you guys added any new favorite dairy and dairy accessories to your list?

Or still just the old ones? You know what? What? I think this is a—I'm not sure if it's a dairy or a dairy accessory. I don't know which category it falls into, but you know what season it's about to be? Fall, y'all. No, it's already fall, Kristen. I just like to say fall, y'all.

Eggnog season. Oh, I do love eggnog. I just like to say fall, y'all. Eggnog season. Oh, I do love eggnog. I love eggnog so much. Oh, yeah. Okay, I think that's a dairy item. Dairy accessory, which is also seasonally themed. Okay, you know those little Pillsbury sugar cookies that have the design in them? Never been a fan of those.

Oh, my gosh, I love them. You do? Yes. No, they don't taste like anything. They been a fan of them. Oh my gosh, I love them! You do? Yes! No, they don't taste like anything. They taste like sugar, Kristen. Oh, man, you like those? Yeah. I always thought, who likes these?

Me! I like them. And they have like a cute ghost face on them for Halloween, and then for Thanksgiving, there's a turkey on them, and then for Christmas, there's a Christmas tree on them. What is not to like? The taste. No! It's a fucking on them. And then for Christmas, there's a Christmas tree on them. What is not to like? The taste. No. It's a fucking cookie, Kristen.

You know what else is a cookie? Those Snackwell's cookies. And those are no good. Oh, okay. I'm glad you brought that up because I was not here for that episode. That was done in my absence. Yeah. How dare you besmirch the good name of Snackwell cookies?

I love those. I told people that those, like, I know they taste bad. And Brandi, you've got to admit, they taste bad. It's a texture thing. I love the texture of them. Okay. That smooth, weird, chocolatey stuff on the outside. It's not even chocolate.

Those are my stress snacks. We should go get those cookies right now. I know. What are we doing? But, you know, they've improved the recipe. They've not improved it. They've made it worse. That's what I think because I saw a picture of them.

It's just got this heap of marshmallow in it. I don't fucking want that. No. Give me the old recipe. Yeah. The old recipes. Remember, they kind of almost had a nipple on the back. They did.

Yes. And you could. What? What, Brandi? What could you do to them? What could you do to them? What did you do to those poor cookies? Okay. So, you know how I like to dissect my food?

You do. You really pull it apart. I like to pick food apart, eat it in layers. And there's layers to those cookies. Exactly. So those would give you a good starting point. You could kind of hook your teeth on that little nipple, if you will, and start peeling that chocolatey faux, that faux chocolate covering off. Yeah, yeah.

And then you'd have the marshmallow under that. Would you suck on the marshmallow? No, it's not like a sucking thing. It's just a good, I like the, it's funny that you mentioned the little nipple on the back because it's a good way to start dissecting the cookie. Okay. This is going to sound like some weird paid promotion because it's going to be the second time I mention this podcast in a row. But the podcast maintenance phase, which I told you last week. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like an honestly good health and wellness podcast. Yeah. They did a whole episode on Snack well cookies and how they're bullshit. They are bullshit. So my dad also loved them. Yeah, my dad did too. But he would be like, oh, fat-free cookies and eat the whole box. They're like 50 calories a cookie.

Eat the whole box. It's like. Well, every. Okay, I will not have you saying this stuff about your dad. Everyone eats the whole box. There's like 12 of them. Give me a break. Everyone eats the whole box. There's like 12 of them. Give me a break. Everyone eats the whole box every time.

But no, so they talked about how like those snack bowl cookies, they are like, they were the epitome of the 90s bullshit diet food where we were all like, oh, fat's bad. And so then companies were like, we're here to help. We'll take the fat out. We'll jack it up with sugar. Exactly. There's just a shit ton of sugar in here, which makes it 50 calories a cookie. And very healthy. Yes.

Anyway, I didn't realize you were so passionate about this. So I, yeah, like I said, I know they taste weird. I know they're not good. You know who I am about my textures.

It's a childhood thing for me. And like when I get stressed out, I'm like, I've got to have those fucking Snackwell cookies. And Norman is, when I come home from the grocery store with those, he's like, what is happening? They're also ridiculously expensive. Are they? They're like $3.50 for a box of 12 cookies.

Yeah, I mean, it is a lot when you consider. And no one wants them. You have to look so hard to find them. They're like up in the very top. Yeah. With the ginger snaps, which I also love. I also love those too. Oh, we love.

Did you see that somebody suggested that we make that, that you eat that fluff dip we made, the pumpkin pie dip, with a ginger snap? Great idea. I bet that's amazing. Someone has blown our minds. I bet that's really good. I bet it's so good. In conclusion, I love those Snackwell's cookies. There's something about the texture of the weird chocolatey coating.

They are bizarre cookies, though. I mean, we're not. Oh, okay. I do want to say one thing. The last time I mentioned them on the podcast— Can you imagine if it were sponsored by Snap? I know. But the last time I mentioned them, some people in the Discord were like,

hey, I want to try those. Those things are terrible. I know. They're terrible. They're terrible. They're not good. Don't go buy them. It's like a nostalgia thing.

Yeah. Yeah. If you go buy them now without having some, having some childhood connection to them, it's bad. They're bad. You'll be like, I'm going to reach out to that podcast for a refund. Not Your Average Joe asks, are you shocked by the outcome of Kansas and Missouri? No. No.

No. Disappointed? Disappointed, yes. Shocked? No. Nope. disappointed disappointed yes shocked no nope um my county went for biden does your county go for biden i'm sure i'm sure it did i mean okay i I kind of feel like anytime you get a place that's like relatively well populated and there's a university there and there's lots of people, you're going to go Democrat generally.

Right. So, yeah, that's what I think about Kansas City. We usually go Democrat. Yeah, it's kind of unusual for my county, which does not meet any of those criteria at all, to go Democrat. But it's also not unusual to be loved by anyone. By anyone. Da-da-da-da-da.

That was all I could think about when you said it's not unusual. Did you see this? It's not even a question. And Peggy says, if you liked the butthole swab, Brandy, you might like a bidet. Okay. Oh, wait. Oh, earlier she does ask a question. She goes, have you ever used a bidet and did it change your life?

Okay. I have never used a bidet. You guys have a bidet. Yeah. It obviously has changed your guys' life. Remember how awful we were before we had our bidet? No, so, okay, I got to say, living in the Midwest and having a bidet, people are scandalized by our bidet. Yes.

It's like they walked in on a room full of sex toys. That is. That is. People look at it as if it's a sex toy out in public. You say people. You look at it. You're right. I said, what are you doing with that thing?

You were very scandalized. Kyla was extraordinarily scandalized. She was like, you have more. I love it. I'm sure you do. Okay, it's not a sex thing. You get no pleasure from it. Here's the thing.

Here's the thing. Think about toilet paper for a second. Do you think that's really clean in you? Now a fire hose to your butthole, that'll knock some shit right off. Oh, my gosh. Okay. I have to talk about something that we talked about on an episode a long time ago. Okay.

And I think we've actually had this discussion, but it was on an episode that we had to re-record, and so it never made it to the public. I think I need to admit this publicly. Okay. But it was on an episode that we had to rerecord. And so it never made it to the public. I think I need to admit this publicly. On an episode many moons ago, you accused me of being a toilet paper snob. Yeah. Because I like Cottonelle. Yeah, you are absolutely a toilet paper snob. And I said, absolutely not.

Any old toilet paper will do. That's just my preference. And then the pandemic happened. And there was a toilet paper shortage. And I was forced to buy whatever toilet paper was available. But any toilet paper will do, Brandi. And so I bought the world's largest

pack of Costco toilet paper. Uh-huh. And I fucking hated it. I finally just went through it all. And I was like, give me my regular toilet paper bag. So I'm here to tell you, you are correct. I am a toilet paper snob. You do buy the good stuff. I mean, it's basically like wiping off with a pillow.

Really. But no, I got to say the bidet. I mean, you get clean. The bidet does the cleaning, so you can just do like a little dab with whatever single ply you got. Yeah, so it's better for the environment. The look on your face. And it's so sexual,

so you get off every time. It's definitely a weird sex thing. You should be scandalized. No, I'm serious. You guys, Midwestern folks, mm-mm. They're scandalized by the bidet. Norman loves it so much. He wanted to get a bidet for our downstairs toilet, too.

Listen. What? Okay. All right, finish that story. So, okay. So he wanted to get one for our downstairs toilet, too, which is just a half bath. And I was like, you can't because this is the Midwest. That's where guests go.

Guests will see that, and they will lose their minds. They will freak out, be very uncomfortable. If you want to use the bidet, you just got to go upstairs. Okay, you say it's not a weird thing, totally normal. What if someone asked to use your bidet? That's fine. You wouldn't be weirded out by that? No, that's like using my toilet.

I don't think it is! Hold on, how do you think a bidet works? I was just shooting water. Yeah, it doesn't like, it's not like you rest your butthole on something. I know, I'm making contact. Well, then why would that be? I think it's weird. Why, though?

I don't know. It wouldn't use your water pick. Well, yeah, because that makes contact. No, it doesn't. A water pick does not make contact. You put that in your mouth. You're very likely to make contact accidentally. If you somehow get

your butthole on the bidet, on the metal of the bidet, you are doing it wrong, and you are like, you must have the skinniest ass in all the land, because you've fallen through, probably impaled yourself, gotta go to the emergency room. So, touching the bidet

is the least you can do. Problems. In conclusion, yeah, somebody could use the bidet, but you didn't want to put it on your main toilet. Because of the discrimination. Because you think you'll be bidet-shaped. I know I will Because

Like You know Not a lot of people Use your upstairs toilet Right But you and Kyla have Yeah And both of you

Were just like Oh my god Oh It's like you guys Rearranged who we are in your minds. I thought you were good people. Obviously not. Boy, this has been quite the question.

Would you ever, okay, why do you not want a bidet? I don't necessarily not want a bidet. Oh, Brandy, Brandy, keep it real. Come on. I don't. Like, it's fine. If I was staying at a hotel, like, I know a lot of, like, high-end hotels have bidet. Oh, Brandy, keep it real. Come on. I don't. Like, it's fine. If I was staying at a hotel, like, I know a lot of like, high-end hotels

have bidets. If I was staying at a hotel, I'd probably try out the bidet. But it's so weird because other people would have used it. I agree. I would probably be weirded out a little bit by it. Uh-huh. I don't know. Here's the thing. You know what

the weirdest part is? You have to clean it with your mouth. Oh, God! No, here's the real deal. I don't know. Here's the thing. You know what the weirdest part is? You have to clean it with your mouth. Oh, God! No, here's the real deal. I don't think there's anything missing from my life without a bidet. No, something would go missing, though, and it would be the bits of poo on your butt. And that's why it's so great.

You gotta knock some of that crust loose, Brie. You ever heard of heard of like a, you know, a. What? You never tag teamed it? Tag teamed it? What are you talking about? You do like a moist towelette and toilet paper? Okay.

So I used to do. This is so much information. I used to be a big fan of the, you know, it's not a wet wipe, but you know what I mean. So we would do that. But then I found out that it's like really bad for plumbing systems. Well, yeah, you can't flush them. Yeah. So it's bad for infrastructure.

Although the ones I bought said they were flushable. Turns out all lies. Yeah, it is. And so then it's like. A hot heap of lies. So, but then I've got what I think it's grosser to have a little bathroom trash can filled with shit wipes. I think that's grosser than anything. So then I was like, well, okay, I don't want to do that.

You're right, that is gross. But at the same time, I'm like, I don't think toilet paper really gets the job done. Maybe it's because you're buying the wrong toilet paper. Okay. Brought to you by Cottonel. This has all been an elaborate ad for Cottonel toilet paper. Gotcha, suckers. What if it was like dueling ads where if they follow my affiliate link for a bidet, I get money.

But if they buy Cottonel, you get a cut. You guys, I think I've made a very good case here. I'm buying you a bidet for Christmas. Oh, gosh. How does David feel about bidets? You know, I don't know. I haven't asked him. Okay.

I'll report back. Please do. He's going to love this segment. I think seeing is believing. I don't think anybody's not believing in the existence of bidets, Kristen. No, that's not what seeing is believing means. It's like you've got to test it out. No, Kristen, I will not use your potato.

Don't ask me again. Sir Jenkins 1 wants to know, what was Kristen and Norm's wedding like? Well, thousands of people attended. It was obviously

covered very heavily in the press, so I won't bore you with the details because you've probably already watched a bunch of specials on E! No, obviously. No, we had the best wedding for us. It was like 25 people, 30 people. It was family only.

It was in my parents' backyard. We spent maybe $500 on the whole thing. You had donuts? We had donuts. We had barbecue. Honestly, this is a message for the ladies out there. I think ladies are taught, like, you get this one day. It's your magical day and blah, blah, blah.

And if that's what you want, I mean, go for it. But I think a lot of the— Go balls to the wall. Go balls out. You guys, I was very tired today. Kristen ran a yellow light and yelled, balls out! As she did it! And Brandi and Norm were like, that's not a thing!

Nobody says balls out! But I'm making it a thing. Anyway, back to my feminist argument here. My thing is I feel like a lot of people don't want the big wedding, don't even want like a bunch of people looking at them. And, you know, save money, live better, as I like to say. Yeah. Walmart didn't make that up. I made it up when I had a really cheap wedding and I loved it.

Corey asked, would there ever be a Patreon tier where we could put in a request for a case? Hey man, if you're in the Discord, put in a request. You're already at that tier. We got a whole section over here called Case Suggestions. I think we need to con Corey. Yeah, Corey, you got to donate $12,000. No, anyone can make a suggestion. You don't even have to be a patron. You can, you know, email us, tweet us, Facebook us.

That's right. Singing telegram us. Ooh, aye. Send Brandy a bidet and write on the outside of the box. Jessica with a K wants to know, what is your favorite anxiety activity right now? Mine is eating pastries and doing macrame. Okay, Brandy, how have you survived?

Well, this morning I stress ate Funyuns. Oh, no, that is grim. That is very grim. How many Funyuns? I only ate like a handful, but it was not an appropriate time to eat funyuns. What time in the morning? It was like 7.30 this morning. Yep.

So you and I both like didn't sleep much at all. And I told you. So last night I went over to Kyla and Jay's. And, you know, I was feeling really cautiously optimistic. And I got there and it's like Florida had already gone to Trump. And I was like, oh, OK, it's going to be this kind of evening. So we watched the coverage and it was just getting a little little kind of grim. And so then I went home and I ate an entire pizza by myself. I ate an entire pizza by myself. It was thin crust. I'll, I'll have you all know. So just hold that judgment. Um, but yeah, it's, you know what? My anxiety makes me feel like I'm hungry.

Does your anxiety do that? Yeah. Yeah. So my, my stomach feels upset and I, I've really, it's taken me an embarrassing amount of time to realize I've always been like, oh, I need to settle my stomach. It doesn't work. With an entire pizza. That's a great stomach settler. And my other anxiety thing is like I wake up super early. Yeah.

So today, ass crack of dawn, woke up to a text from you at 3 in the morning. And somehow I knew it wasn't because your baby woke you up. It wasn't. It wasn't. I also, so, okay. So I stress ate the Funyuns. That didn't do it for me. I tried to watch a show, like, while I fed London just to, like, get my mind off of things.

That wasn't doing it. And so then I listened to the Hamilton soundtrack. Yeah. It helped a lot, actually. I bet it would. So what show were you watching? Okay, so. What?

Okay. That's stupid. I'm watching This Is Us again. Oh, God. So it's, I watched it, and then I decided, so I watched the, you know, watched it. I've never seen it. Okay, I watched it very religiously. It was like my favorite show on TV. And then I went through my divorce, and I decided it. I've never seen it. I watched it very religiously. It was like my favorite show on TV.

And then I went through my divorce and I decided it wasn't good for my mental health to watch it by myself when I was already in such an emotional state. Because isn't it just the saddest show? It's a very emotional show. And so I stopped watching it and I never went back to it. And then I was like, I want to know how this story continues. So it's on Hulu. And so I've gone back into it. That did not help my anxiety this morning. Okay. Spoiler alert. But is it true that someone died from a crockpot? Yeah.

That sounds stupid. That does happen. Am I being insensitive? There's like, you know, multiple steps. There's layers to that. Okay. It's not as stupid as it sounds. No. Death by crockpot. Death by crockpot does sound stupid when you say it like that, but how it's done is. There's like a crockpot causes a fire and then someone dies of smoke inhalation. Well, yeah, I mean, obviously I didn't think the crockpot. They got caught in the crockpot or something. The crockpot became self-aware and then. No one was eaten by a crockpot.

Okay, okay. It's good to know. I've started watching Veep. Did you ever watch Veep? No. Oh, I love Veep. And for some reason, it's helped to have a show, a ridiculous comedy about politics. Yeah.

When, like, real-life politics are terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. Good show. Highly recommend it. David and I just also watched the, like, first episode of the new season of Superstore, which is not a show that I'm, like, super into. But it's about a sitcom about a bunch of people that work in, like, a Walmart, essentially. Yeah.

And they're doing it like it's the beginning of COVID. Oh. It's really – they did a really good job with it. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. And like what the workers had to go through. Yeah. And now they're like, this thing's going to be out of here in a couple of weeks. Oh, God. Do you remember?

I was thinking about that the other day about how like the beginning of COVID, I remember thinking, okay, this is going to be a tough month. Tough month for all of us. But we'll get through it together. We're going to get through this. Whoa. I know. I had a friend who's, you know, I cut her and her children's hair,

and I would just always go to her house and do it because it was way easier. And so I remember, like, she texted me, and she's like, hey, let's put this off for just a couple weeks. Let this kind of cool down a little bit. It's not coming in the house. And I was like, great, absolutely. Yeah. It hasn't cooled down yet.

I realized today, I was talking to my mom, I don't think I've gotten a haircut from you since February. Man. Yeah. Wild times, y'all. Wild times. And wild hair. You know, I could bring my shit here and do it for you. You wouldn't have to actually come to the salon.

Would you mind next week? No, I can absolutely do that. Sweet, let's do that. Your dad is just in the disco. Oh, God. He just said B-Y. Bye. I don't know what he said. It's literally, that's it. Oh, God. One message

from DP. Old man, I'm late. Okay. DP. Old man on the... Okay. DP. What do you even say to this, man? DP's on the loose. Well, should we end it there? Yeah, I think that's a good place to end. With my dad in the Discord, not communicating particularly clearly.

And that's just one of the many selling points. It is one of the many selling points. Being a supporter on Patreon. Time for some Supreme Court Inductions. We are doing people's names and favorite books, and I just want to say we are— We are trying very hard to catch up on the books so we can change to a new topic. We know it's been books for five years. The problem is, you guys, is we—

We're just so popular. No, for real. We had a system going, and it worked when we didn't have a ton of people signing up for our Patreon, and it's a great thing. It is. That we've got so many people lining up. But, you know. The road is long with many a winding turns. That is beautifully put.

I wrote that, not the Hollies. Okay. Nicole Haller. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Diana McConnell. If You Tell by Greg Olson. Serafina Van Malsen. Slammed.

Jenny McCracken. Most of Stephen King. Natalie. Rant. Megan Duffy. Geek Love. Stacey. Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

Casey Markin. Crazy Rich Asians. Mel K. This Is how. I Know This Much Is True by Wally Lamb. Wicked Lovely. Kevin Dominguez. The Four Agreements.

American Gods. Cold Mountain Emerson E Monstrous Regiment Hope Brownhill A Widow for One Year by John Irving Mary McNutt Dream Hunter Series

Ashlyn Nicosia To Kill a Mockingbird RxGal The Sherlock Holmes Complete Series Welcome to the Supreme Court! We had two McNuts in there, isn't that... McNuts? Oh, boy.

Yep, yep. Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts, leave us a rating, leave us a review, and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the Dateline episode 12 Minutes on Elm Street, along with articles from the star tribune murderpedia cbs and wikipedia i got my info from an episode of snapped the court record and articles for the star ledger for a full list of our sources visit lgtcpodcast.com any errors are of course ours but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.