Let's Go To Court! - 156: The Mysterious Lloyd Gaines & a Creepy Church Lady

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

When Lloyd Gaines requested a course catalog from the University of Missouri’s School of Law, the registrar sent one right away. Later, when Lloyd applied to the school, university officials thought nothing of it. He was a qualified applicant. Then the university’s registrar received his undergraduate transcripts, and shit hit the fan. The transcripts came from historically black Lincoln University. But the University of Missouri School of Law refused to accept black students. They asked Lloyd to go to law school in a neighboring state, but Lloyd refused. Then Brandi tells us about a creepy church lady. Mary Jane Fonder had been attending Trinity Evangelical Lutheran Church for years. Despite her long tenure at the church, she didn’t have many friends there. People generally thought she was pretty weird. But her weirdness kicked into overdrive when she convinced herself that she and the church pastor had feelings for one another. She left him long, incoherent messages. She snuck food into his house. Later, when he began helping a new church member named Rhonda Smith, Mary Jane lost her shit. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Before Brown: Charles H Houston and the Gaines Case,” by Douglas O. Linder for Famous-Trials.com “Lloyd Gaines,” entry on Wikipedia “Charles Hamilton Houston,” entry on Wikipedia “Little known Supreme Court case from Missouri was early stepping-stone to school desegregation,” by Ryan Delaney for St. Louis Public Radio In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Mary Jane Fonder” episode Snapped “Test of Faith: Killing shocks congregation” by Keith Morrison, Dateline “Bucks County killer Mary Jane Fonder dies just weeks after search for missing father reopened” by Manuel Gamiz Jr., The Morning Call “Police hope remnants of Bucks County home, once owned by a murderer, holds clues about long-missing man” by Vinny Vella, The Philadelphia Inquirer “Mary Jane Fonder” wikipedia.org “Mary Jane Fonder” murderpedia.org

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the mysterious Lloyd Gaines. And I'll be talking about a sweet little church lady. I bet you're not. I bet you're not. Okay, right off the top, guys. Holy crap. Oh my gosh. We are recording while there's a major coup happening at the Capitol. Yeah, so it's Wednesday. What day is today? It's, you know, Wednesday, the 6th of January. So normally we just, like, eat lunch and then we record.

But this time we were like, well, maybe we should watch a little news coverage. And, oh, my gosh, it's getting scarier and scarier. It is very scary. We forced Norm to promise to break into the room if anything. Major. Major happens. Which, I mean, major stuff has already happened. Has already happened.

But yeah. Yeah. Wow. Who knew that Donald Trump lying to people could result in some bad shit? Exactly. It's like, wow, huge shocker here. Huge shocker. Oh, my gosh.

I do think that the thing that was so interesting to me that somebody said, we were watching, it was a congressman who has worked at the Capitol building for years. And he's like, I've always just kind of operated under the assumption that you know you like hit a button and we're all like locked down and safe and that's clearly not the case yeah I mean so we started talking about like our episode and it's become a joke now did you know when Lincoln was president you could just walk up and see the president but it really this shows that yeah our elected officials are not as safe as we maybe thought they were or should be right really as they should be yeah yeah and uh wow when a bunch of angry white folks um is protest i'm protesting quotation marks yeah it's not they

certainly get treated differently than black lives Matter protesters. Oh, my gosh. Who are actual protesters. Right. Okay. Anyway. Anyway. So anyway, we're going to try to do this episode. Yeah. It's going to be interesting.

It is. We also told Norm to break in if he gets confirmation that Kim and Kanye are in fact divorcing. Yeah. Either way. Two really important issues that affect us all. That's right. How's your mask over there? It's good.

It's good. I did give it a little pat. You gave it like you like set it down and then did like two pats on it. Well, my mask has and I like this.

It's got one of those nose ridge things that you kind of pinch but it gives it kind of a bulge. Oh, so when you set it down, you thought I would see, because of the bulge left in your mask, that it's fitted to your nose, and you'd think I'd think your nose was big? No, no, I didn't think that at all. I just didn't want you to notice my bulge. So I was trying to pat it down, because I know what a weird perv you are.

I did notice that cicada love scene outside earlier. Yeah, do you want to talk about that, you weirdo? Okay, while we were watching the news coverage, I glanced. Yeah, I was watching news coverage. I glanced at the window behind me, and attached to the outside screen were two cicadas, you know, engaged in an adult moment. And Norman and I had to tell you to leave those cicadas alone.

Brandi's trying to start an OnlyFans account just for the two cicadas. It's really boring coverage. They don't move much, but it is expensive, though. That's right. And it's hot. Hot cicada action. Very noisy. You know, if you don't want to sign up for that, and who could blame you?

Let's talk about a mystery, Kristen. First off, right off the top, what do you know about this? Absolutely nothing. Are you lying? No. If you're an undercover cop, you have to tell me. I am an undercover cop, but I am not lying about not knowing anything about the mysterious Lloyd Gaines. Okay, well, I'm going to tell the audience what I just told you.

Buckle up. This is a long one. Okay. Okay? Get your big beverages. Get yourself an Italian footlong. Do what you got to do. That's what Norm ate for lunch, and it had some questionable salami on it.

It did. Prayers for Norm's butthole. Prayers for Norm's butthole. That's something we have to say far too regularly on this podcast. We do say it pretty regularly. But then again, he puts himself into some sticky situations. Those wings, the infamous wings, were gray. Yeah.

And he continued to eat them. Is it victim blaming? Not totally feeling bad for him. I mean, like, I felt a little bad. I did. I felt terrible for him. But at the same time, I mean, you and I took one bite and we were like, done. No, something's off with those.

Anyway, should I move on? Yeah. Okay. Poor Norm. Poor Norm's butthole. So, first off, huge, the biggest of shout outs, as always, to FamousTrials.com. Ooh. Professor Douglas O. Linder, a.k.a.

Dougie O. Has an article on there titled, Before Brown, Charles H. Houston and the Gaines Case. Excellent write-up. I loved it. It was very, very helpful. Also super helpful. Wikipedia. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Hang on. Got some anal lube on your lips. It's called Carmex Brandy, and we're never going to get a sponsorship if you keep talking about them like that. My God. You know it's a big case when I've got to Carmex up the lips. Yeah.

How's that feeling? Great. Good. I feel like the top one might just slide right off. You guys missed the face I just made. I'm sorry. Picture it. 1935.

We're in the great state of Missouri. Oh, familiar. At this point in time, other more progressive states were saying totally off the wall, nutso stuff like racism is bad and really cuckoo stuff like, hey, maybe white students and black students could be educated. Hear me out. Hear me, in the very same building. The same school, even. Oh, my goodness. It'd be a real together and equal scenario. The same building and the same school?

Um, yeah. Don't you think some segregated asshole could... You're right. Okay, all right. Come on, come on. All right. That's my impression of Brandy when she thinks she's got a good point, but really she doesn't. I can tell that these wild ideas are making you real nervous, Brandy.

Well, don't you worry, because the white people of Missouri heard those wild ideas and they were like, Nuh-uh! Can't make me stop being racist. I've been racist since before it was cool. It wasn't ever cool, Kristen. I disagree. I think the people in Missouri thought it was really cool. Some still do. By the way, if anyone is from Missouri and they're like, hey, I'm from Missouri too, so calm

down. Plus, we got this really awesome concept called separate but equal. Everyone loves it. It works out perfectly, so shut up about it. Yeah, yeah, it's great. It loves it. It works out perfectly. So shut up about it. Yeah, yeah. It's great. It's great. Don't question it. But people did question it. In fact, around this time, a little organization called the NAACP was just a few decades old. And NAACP leaders knew that in order to seriously improve the lives of black Americans, they had to tackle

the blatant in-your-face racism that was just baked into the judicial system the thing they really needed to attack was the bullshit separate but equal doctrine set forth in plessy versus ferguson in 1896 it would be a tough job though. It would require decades of work and a lot of little legal battles that would hopefully one day culminate in the eradication of segregation. But who could lead the charge, Brandy? Well? Lloyd Gaines? Um, not the name we're looking for, but I get where you're going. I understand why you're there

his name was charles hamilton houston he was a big deal charles was born in 1895 in washington dc to like remarkable parents his mom was a hairdresser who had a ton of important clients like i don't know congress Congress people, VIPs, everybody went to her. And his dad was an attorney and they wanted the absolute best for Charles. So they sent him to M Street High School, which was one of the first black high schools in America. I know, right? Yeah. The school was amazing. It had excellent teachers and really high academic standards. And Charles did so well there that when he graduated, he was accepted to Amherst College. This doesn't sound so fun. He was the only black student in the class of 1915.

Oh, my gosh. He was totally socially isolated in school. There were places on campus where he just wasn't welcome at all. He was very alone. All he had were his studies. But without anything else to do, he threw himself into the work, and he worked incredibly hard. And in the end, the only black student in the class of 1915 became Amherst's valedictorian.

Wow! Yes! Okay, that's amazing. Oh man, I would have loved to see the faces on all those white parents at the graduation day. Are you okay over there? It's freezing! It is freezing in here. It is freezing. Hang on, let me check the radiator.

It's not putting here. It is freezing in here. It is freezing. Hang on, let me check the radiator. It's not putting out shit. Okay. I'm good. I got my hood up. Well. You just have to look at me like this. I'm going to have to do some calisthenics to get this going. What if I told this story while doing jumping jacks?

That would be very distracting. And I would be super impressed if you could talk that much while doing jumping jacks. I mean, it probably wouldn't sound good. But soon after he graduated, the U.S. entered World War I. And Charles was like, OK, I see where this is going. I'm going to get drafted. And because I'm a black guy, I'm going to get thrown into the army and they're going to put me on the front lines and I'm going to in battle yes don't think so it's not the way this is gonna go down so charles took control of the situation and he enlisted as an officer and was sent off to fight in france but the discrimination he faced from his fellow white servicemen was unreal. We don't have time to get into all of it and like there's a lot and it's terrible. But at one point he and a few other black servicemen were almost lynched by

white servicemen because one of the white guys got pissed that a hot French lady went to the movies with a black guy. Oh my gosh. Yes, for Charles, that brush with death was just the cherry on top of a very racist, shitty sundae. Coming to you at a Dairy Queen. What? Dairy Queen. Coming to a Dairy Queen near you. It's the racism blizzard. It's all white.

It's got a marshmallow mix in. And there's Miracle Whip on top. Ew! Yeah, no one likes a racist sundae. You thought it was going to be delicious? What the hell's wrong with you? Can you imagine how gross? That sounds disgusting.

Okay. Yes, I can imagine how gross? That sounds disgusting. Yes, I can imagine how gross. Here's the deal. The racism didn't just come from his fellow servicemen. It came from the very top. Everything from the bathrooms to the dining situation was separated by race. And I don't mean to surprise the pants off of you, but things were separate and they were not equal. Finally, when the war ended, Charles came back to the United States.

He'd just gotten back, and he was in a train headed to Philly. And he and another black officer wanted something to eat. So they went to the dining car and they sat down. But the guy at the table next to them, who was this middle-aged white guy who, unfortunately, and this is very sad, the man had recently sat on a giant stick. And it was wedged way up his ass? Tragically, it seems that the stick had worked its way very far up the man's ass. So the white guy who was kind of like wincing as he spoke because the stick was so far up, it was starting to actually tickle his throat. He asked the waiter to send the black men to another table. And Charles was like, are you kidding?

We just got back from overseas. We were fighting for this country. You're really going to make us leave this table because we're black. And by the way, I see your splinters. and the guy said he couldn't help it he was southern also there was a stick up his ass i don't know if you i think we all did you get it yeah that moment was a real turning point for charles he was, I am so glad I didn't lose my life fighting for this country. My battleground is in America, not in France. By this point, racism in America was really heating up. Racism had always been popular, but it was especially popular in the summer of

1919. That summer, 25 race riots broke out across the country. It was a very scary time to be Black in America. Charles had been thinking for years about inequality and what he could do to fight racism, and it seemed like studying law might be his best bet. His dad was an attorney, and Charles knew that the United States desperately needed more black attorneys who could protect and advance the rights of black people. So the idea of law school was sort of floating around in Charles's head and then something happened. The race riots were in full swing and that's when a black man named Theodore Walker went out looking for his friend's kids. The friend was like worried sick because white people were going crazy.

He couldn't find his kids anywhere. So Theodore was like, it's OK. I'll help. I'll help you find him. Theodore looked and looked and looked. Couldn't find these kids. So he went back to his friend's house. And that's when a mob of angry white people spotted him. They chased him. They chanted, I'm gonna need you to

bleep. Kill the bleep. Kill the bleep. One of the white people beat Theodore with an iron pipe. Oh my gosh. Okay, so Theodore was about to be beaten to death by an angry white mob, but he refused to go down without a fight. He had a gun in his pocket. Apparently he'd been attacked earlier, and so he kept a gun on him for moments like this. Oh my gosh. So he took it out and he fired it he fired it low into the crowd not aiming at anyone in particular and not even aiming it at the attacker but the bullet hit and killed a white guy it was all a clear example of self-defense yeah which is perfectly legal in this country don't know if you know that. Right. But nonetheless, Theodore was arrested and charged with murder.

Yes, he was. Meanwhile, Charles Houston's father didn't really do criminal cases anymore, but as a black man and specifically as a black lawyer, he was like, I've got to step in here. I've got to do something. So he joined Theodore's defense team. But despite the defense's best efforts, Theodore was convicted. And it was this injustice that changed things for Charles Houston. He was like, that's it. I'm going to Harvard Law School. And everyone gasped. And he said, what? Like it's hard?

He said, what, like it's hard? Much like Elle Woods. Charles kicked ass at Harvard. Okay, should we pause? The very real Elle Woods. Okay, so obviously, guys, that is a classic legally blonde joke mixed in with this case about a very real man who did heroic things. Today we got a hilarious email. I haven't responded to it yet, but someone was like, oh my gosh, I just

listened to... Now, she didn't realize she was listening to our April Fool's episode where we presented cases from movies that didn't really happen when we pretended like they did happen. And I presented the case from Legally Blonde. She was like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize

that's a real story. Anyway, fun fact, guys, legally blonde, totally fictional story. That is a fun fact. Fun fact. Not everyone knows. Charles became the first black person to be on Harvard Law Review. And when he graduated, he was in the top 5% of his class, Brandi. Oh my gosh. He graduated Harvard with a purpose. He wanted Black people to get some

actual justice from the justice system. And one of the best ways he sought to do that was to get Black lawyers in every community all over the nation. Absolutely. Black people needed advocates. Black people needed more power. The system wasn't going. Absolutely. Black people needed advocates. Black people needed more power. The system wasn't going to change unless black people became part of it. So as soon as he graduated from Harvard, Charles took a job at Howard Law School, which is a historically black school. At the time, three out of every four black attorneys in the United States had graduated from Howard. So by working there, Charles knew that he would have a massive impact on the next generation of black lawyers.

And he took that responsibility, I mean, like, not just seriously, super seriously. Well, you're gonna have to listen to what this guy did. I mean, holy shit. Okay. I want to preface this with, I think we all have had a teacher or a professor who was a real pain in the skunch, but ultimately got the best out of us. Okay. That was Charles. Okay. He was that professor times like a thousand. He demanded nothing but the best from his students. He told them a lawyer is either a social engineer

or he's a parasite on society. Oh, shit. When he became vice dean of Howard Law School, he raised the standards. He got rid of the night school. He even lengthened the school year, which I'm sure went over like a fart at a party. Is that a phrase?

I made it up, I think. Can you imagine? You're already in law school and this guy's like, hey, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna do more of this. Oh! The man was a machine, but his students learned a ton from him.

He brought in guest speakers like Clarence Darrow! And he mentored a young man by the name of Thurgood Marshall. Do you know Thurgood Marshall? I do know Thurgood. I mean, not personally. Charles had sky-high standards, which meant he wasn't very easygoing.

Here's a fun story about how chill he was. Are you ready? Yeah. He had a girlfriend named Gladys, and one time in one of their letters to him, she misspelled the word perhaps. Okay, not a big deal. She spelled it prehaps.

Uh-huh. What do you do with that, Brandy? You just ignore it. You let it slide by. No, no, wrong. Wrong wrong here's what charles did charles wrote back to her and he said quote you spell perhaps wrongly you spell it perhaps write it below correctly 25 times and never spell it wrongly again. Oh my gosh! Don't worry, they later got married and then they got divorced. I can't imagine why. But after a few years of shaping Howard Law School,

the NAACP came calling. And Charles agreed to work on a few different cases and over the years, he got more and more involved in the organization. And he started to think about the best ways for the NAACP to make lasting change. He talked to his students about lawyers being social engineers. How could he become a social engineer? Well, in 1934, he came up with an idea. He told the NAACP's board that they should concentrate their legal efforts on ending discrimination in the education system. Why, you ask? Because education is preparation for the competition of life. Wow. Right? Yeah. Is that not the best quote ever? Yeah. Holy. Wow. T-shirt idea? I don't know. At the very least, if you're a teacher and you're listening to this and you've got a white, well, oh, but they're not in school right now.

No. Okay, next time we're in school. Yeah, next time you've got a bulletin board to decorate, I'm going to say it again. Education is preparation for the competition of life. That is amazing. Yes. Yes. I'm going to get that tattooed on my forehead. Oh, that's great. I'm sure he would have loved that. Perhaps you shouldn't do that. He argued that by ensuring a subpar education for young Black students,

white people were preparing Black people to accept an inferior position without protest or struggle. I don't think that's that far off. You set someone up at five years old to go into an inferior classroom? They're probably not going to question that, you know, 15, 20 years down the line. Exactly. When it continues throughout the rest of their life. Yes. So the NAACP had to change things.

Charles's reasons for going after segregation in education were brilliant. First off, a ton of states were going by the separate but equal rule. But they weren't even following their own racist rules because things were separate, but they weren't actually equal. So Charles' plan was this. If states really wanted to maintain segregated education, that's fine. But they'd have to shell out a ton of money to start making things equal. In other words, spend a bunch of money to make separate and equal facilities for black students or desegregate.

or desegregate. Yeah. For this legal battle, Charles felt that their best bet was to attack racism at the graduate school level. Okay, why do you think he went for graduate school? I don't know.

This is so smart. This is so smart. Okay, so it was a couple reasons. Number one, most southern states didn't offer any graduate programs of any kind to black students. So it's super easy to prove that it's not equal because like one just doesn't exist.

Yeah. OK. So if the state insisted on sticking to separate but equal, they would have to create from scratch a whole new graduate program specifically for black people that was just as well funded as the one for white students. This would be like the most expensive proposition you could possibly come up with. Yeah. So they would have like no choice but to just desegregate the graduate programs. Another reason Charles went after graduate programs specifically was because a lot of the bullshit racist arguments about desegregating education were like, but what about interracial

dating? And my God, think of the children. Well, children don't go to grad school. So there's that off the table. And thanks to sexism, which is something I've never said. Women couldn't go to grad school anyway. White women weren't in grad school for the most part. So like this idea, this fear of interracial dating, that's not going to happen. This fear of like, what about the children? That's not happening either. Yeah.

So graduate education was a weak log in the racist Jenga tower of segregated education, Brandy. Wonderful. It's quite the picture you paint there. Douglas wrote that. I didn't write it. Can you imagine? I definitely wrote that. Yeah, that wasn't our boy Dougie O.

By this point, Charles was working full time for the NAACP office in New York. And he was ready to look himself in the mirror and say, let's go to court. He knew what he would be up against. This would be a matter of like lengthy appeals, lawsuits in a bunch of different states, all in the hope that one day he might get a case before the United States. Supreme Court! And hopefully then they would see the end of segregation in graduate schools. After that, who knows?

Maybe they could desegregate schools at every level. But at this point, the plan was in its infancy. Right now, what he needed was to find a state that was just the right amount of racist and to find a plaintiff who was just the right amount of qualified to go to graduate school. Charles got started right away on a case in Maryland, but at the same time, he also reached out to a black attorney in the great state of Missouri by the name of Sidney Redmond. Do you like how I'm saying Missouri? I hate it so much. I think it's so fun to say it that way. Sidney was one of like three dozen black lawyers in Missouri. So they connected

and Charles was like, hey, Sidney, I need your help. At this time, Missouri's, I mean, I want to call it the only university for black students. It might not have been the only one because I know there was a teacher's college, too. But anyway, Lincoln University was the main one. But obviously, Lincoln couldn't do it all. They couldn't offer every graduate program offered at the University of Missouri. They were a lot smaller and not as well funded. So Charles was like, hey, Sydney, would you go to the University of Missouri and take pictures of all the buildings and all the programs not offered at Lincoln?

And could you also get me admissions forms for all of those programs? One of the buildings that Sydney photographed was the law school. Black students were not allowed to go to the University of Missouri's law school. Okay. Get fucking ready for this workaround. Okay. Because my assumption was

they just didn't let black people in. Yeah. And that was the end of it. Yeah. It wasn't quite that way. The state had a policy. If black students wanted to attend law school, they couldn't do it in Missouri. So their only option was to either, you know, give up on that dream or go to a neighboring state and attend one of their law schools.

And the state of Missouri actually paid black law students a scholarship to go out of state. Oh, my goodness. So it was super common. I talked about the desegregation of schools in Iowa. Yeah. And shit, what was the name of the main guy in that? Alexander Clark. He went to law school at Iowa State. So that was that was a place where a lot of black people would go in Missouri if they wanted to get their law degree. Kansas was another one. Obviously, this policy was unbelievably stupid and terrible, but it was also the perfect setup for a lawsuit. Yes. Okay, here's where this story gets controversial.

Obviously, Charles had a lot on his shoulders. He had this well-thought-out legal strategy aimed at dismantling segregation. But it would be challenging to find the right plaintiff for this case. The plaintiff needed to be highly intelligent, have no skeletons in their closet, be brave enough to stand up to the inevitable backlash and possible violence that might follow. In other words, Charles would have to find someone who could do great in every category from hidden talents all the way to swimsuit. But here's the thing.

It's tough to find that person, right? So here's a question that to this day remains I mean, not unanswered because some people think they know, but you know, it's up in the air. We'll put it that way. Did Charles and the rest of his team discover the perfect plaintiff? Or did they create

the perfect plaintiff? Did they just, oopsies, stumble upon a really smart guy who dreamed of attending the University of Missouri School of Law, but couldn't because of his race and therefore wanted to sue the university? Or did they get a robot, dress him up like a real boy? That's what I thought when you said, did they create? No, or did they find a really smart guy who was perfectly qualified to go to MU? Yeah.

And then did they talk the guy into being part of a lawsuit that, you know, he was up for, but like it wasn't like his passion to go to law school? Yeah, that's possible, right? I think it's totally possible. Yeah. I would also argue, and this is not, well, whatever, my personal opinion, who cares? I don't think, yeah, i don't think it matters who gives a shit yeah you'll find out later why people give a shit but for now my opinion is you know the point is we need to desegregate these schools someone should be able to apply

and get in if they're qualified yeah who cares if his passion is not the law was your passion the law, Kristen? No, I think that's the funny thing. And I didn't, I obviously didn't like sign up for law school. Like, I don't really want to do this. No. Yeah. But like, I think my thing is obviously I'm passionate about legal stories. I'm not necessarily passionate about reading case law.

Going to every semester of law school. It just didn't occur to me that maybe I could start a podcast with you. And get to talk about the law. Much less expensive to just start a podcast than to go to law school. A lot of people don't know that. It's a hot tip. Yeah, hot tip. You want to save money, just start a podcast.

Don't go to law school. So it's hard to say. The only thing that's certain is that they did find someone, and his name was Lloyd Gaines. I heard of him. You have heard of him. You suggested his name earlier. Now here he is 16 pages later. So let's talk about Lloyd.

Lloyd's family moved to St. Louis, Missouri when he was 15. His father had just died and his mom, Callie, wanted to create a better life for her children. Until that point, they'd been tenant farmers in Mississippi. So Lloyd enrolled in school. And even though he was 15, he placed into the fifth grade. He was just so far behind his peers. But as it turned out, Lloyd was super smart. All he needed was a good learning environment because with the right teachers and the right resources, Lloyd made massive educational gains. And pretty soon he was learning right alongside his peers and then he surpassed them he joined the debate team

he wrote for the school newspaper he was elected vice president of student council and when he graduated from vashon high school in 1931 he was valedictorian of his class of holy shit yes yes what do you think about him joining the school newspaper brandy you got something to say about how that's uncool yeah he's probably a super nerd who hung out at the coffee shop because he thought he had very important things to discuss. Hmm. Weird. I recall from looking around that coffee shop.

It was filled with everybody from journalism and yearbook. Very cool people. Yes. Yes. We were great. Mm-hmm. At that point, he entered an essay contest. And his entry, titled, U.S. Inspection of Meat, won first place.

No. I bet that was disgusting to read. Yeah, I bet it was. That earned him a $250 scholarship to go to college. Adjusted for inflation, that's $4,280. And I got to say, like, education costs have gone, like, sky high. Exponentially, yeah. So let's adjust that to $30,000 or something.

Yeah, there we go. That's very well calculated. That wasn't just off the top of my head. It was real work that went into that. Real work. I put in work. So Lloyd took that scholarship and used it at Stowe Teachers College. And after a year, he got a scholarship to Lincoln University, the historically black college in Jefferson City.

And Lloyd excelled at Lincoln. He studied history and he joined Alpha. Logs. Oh, my gosh. Brandy. What a great joke. It's a Lincoln Log joke. Yeah.

Your classic Lincoln Log. Okay, I made a Jenga joke. You made a Lincoln Log joke. What's next? Legos? Tinker Toys? We'll see if we can work it in, people. We'll do our best.

He joined the Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity. PHI. Is that Phi? Sure. Okay. Clearly I didn't join any sororities. They have sororities? No.

Was it just one big sorority? Yeah. So Simmons University. I like to mention Simmons because 12 of us went there. And so somewhere there's a lady going, ah! Yeah, it had no sororities. Yeah. Yeah.

It was just one big lady fest. It was a big lady fest. Yeah. Pillow fights every Tuesday. Oh, no! Don't tell me no. Lloyd excelled there. He became the president of his senior class, and by 1935, he graduated with honors.

Lloyd wanted to become a teacher, and he had these excellent letters of recommendation. His professors said that he would be a standout educator. They said he was resourceful, conscientious, and that he'd be an asset in any community where he found work. But Lloyd graduated in the middle of the Depression. And Lloyd, as brilliant and qualified as he was, couldn't find work. And it was during this time that Charles Houston was looking for a plaintiff in the lawsuit against the University of Missouri's law school. Excellent timing. And coincidentally, because he was told to, I don't know,

Lloyd Gaines wrote to the registrar of the University of Missouri's law school and asked for a course catalog. And the registrar, a man named Silas Woodson Canada. That was a mouthful. Which sounds made up. Assumed that Lloyd was white, and so he sent him a catalog. And a few months later, Lloyd applied to the law school. I think this is funny. On the application, they didn't have you check your race because it never really occurred to them that anyone who wasn't white would apply, I guess.

check your race because it never really occurred to them that anyone who wasn't white would apply, I guess. So Lloyd at this point told the president of Lincoln University, you know, the black college he went to, quote, I am applying for admission to the Missouri University School of Law with no other hope than this initial move will ultimately rebound to increase the opportunities for intellectual advancement of Negro youth. Wow. So in my personal opinion, what this means is that he doesn't seem particularly stoked about the idea of attending law school himself, but, you know, he wants to make things more equal for black students in Missouri, and that's super noble, more power to him. Noble more power to him. Meanwhile, at MU, the law school registrar was like, oh yeah, doing my job. Oh yeah, sending catalogs. Oh yeah, getting applications. But then, oh my God, he stopped his little song because you know what happened? Lloyd Gaines' transcript arrived. And it was a transcript from Lincoln University, the university for black students.

Poor Silas had to fetch his smelling salts because he was receiving transcripts from Lincoln. And that probably meant that a black man had applied to the University of Missouri School of Law. Sound me alive! Poor Silas Woodson-Canadas was in such a state of shock, Brandy, that he lost control of his bowels. No, he did not. He did not shit his pants.

Yeah, and he was like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing because his trousers told the tale of what he'd done. He attempted to flee the scene, because it happened in front of a lot of hot, cool people. And he slipped in the swamp of his own making, and

it was from that embarrassing state sprawled out in a pool of his own filth, Brandy, this is a 100% true story, that he sent a telegram to Lloyd Gaines. I'm laying in my own shit. Stop. You can't go to law school. Stop. Please get me new pants.

I like your sex in the city joke. I see it. Here's what it said. Regarding your admission to law school, President Florence and member board Lincoln University, so President Florence was president of Lincoln, will confer this afternoon in Jefferson City about matter. Suggest you communicate with President Florence regarding possible arrangements and further advice. What's the further advice, GTFO? Let's find out together, shall we? So, you know, Silas obviously had to, you know, mop up.

So Lloyd received that telegram, and he wrote his own telegram to the Lincoln University president. And he was like, uh, what are the possible arrangements and further advice you can give me? And the Lincoln president told him about the law where he could go to a neighboring state and go to law school there on a scholarship from the Missouri government. And Lloyd was like, no, he wanted to go to law school in Missouri. So he wrote to the MU president and he made his case. He was like, look, I don't have a lot of money, but I'm a really good student. Can I depend on you to make sure that I get into MU? I just want a good education at a reasonable cost. Please reply soon. Brandy, the look on your face. And the president of MU, Friedrich Middlebush, who earned his name because he had a topiary of pubic hair

that ran around his midsection like a tire. I thought you were going to say it grew just like in the middle. He did a natural landing strip. Just grew that way. Don't be gross, Brandycie don't make it weird poor mr middle bush with his good year tire full of pubes anyway so he was so busy with with that situation going on couldn't find sweaters big enough to cover his middle. But he didn't reply. In other words, Lloyd Gaines wasn't admitted to law school, but he also wasn't rejected either. Months went by.

The University of Missouri was determined to win this standoff by just doing nothing. this standoff by just doing nothing. But on January 24th, 1936, the NAACP sued the University of Missouri on behalf of Lloyd Gaines. In their suit, they asked the judge to force Silas Woodson Canada

to make a decision on Lloyd's application. Was he in or was he out? Make a fucking decision. That's what the lawsuit said. Is that what it said? Yeah. And they were like, whoa, language, please. And all the important people at MU, sorry, I'm realizing for people outside of the area, we call it MU. Yeah, we do. We call it MU. It's located in Columbia, Missouri. We call it MU.

It's located in Columbia, Missouri. Okay. I forgot for a second that it was located in Columbia. And one of these articles said that Lloyd wanted to go to Columbia. And I was like, well, where is this coming from? I don't know how to make sense of this. And I'm like, I'm from Missouri. And I couldn't make sense of that. How many other people have read that article and gone, well, I don't get this guy at all.

Now he wants to leave the country? Or did he want to go to Columbia and New York? There's so many questions. All kinds of questions. So all the important people at MU in Columbia were like, President Middlebush and the Board of Curators got together,

and they couldn't get too close because of Middlebush. And they're like, okay, guys, what do we do? What do we do? And here's the decision they came to. Okay. Lloyd Gaines, he's black, and he has applied to law school and the people of Missouri have forbidden the attendance of black people at the University of Missouri. And the Missouri legislature has generously provided money from the public treasury for black students to go to adjacent states for any course not offered at Lincoln University. So, yeah, Lloyd Gaines, we reject you.

But please take this money and go to school somewhere else. We hear Iowa is lovely this time of year. Oh, and P.S., any change to our current system would be super bad for everybody, alright? It would lead to the detriment of Lincoln University and

the University of Missouri. So, in conclusion, hey, quiet, quiet. In conclusion, we are sweethearts looking out for everybody, black and white. Now please go away. Goodbye. Okay, that's always the argument, that it would be to the detriment of both parties. How? It just would, Brandi.

Okay. Okay, it just would, Brandy. Okay. Okay? It just would. But Charles Houston and the rest of the NAACP's legal team was like, yeah, we're not done here. You rejected our client based on his race, and that's a violation of the 14th Amendment. And the university's lawyers were like, hold the phone, guys. MU is awesome, okay? The real bad guys are those buttholes over at Lincoln University. They're the ones who have failed to provide a law school to black students.

You shouldn't be suing us. You should be suing them. Okay. Really? No, I mean, that's wrong. Judge M.W. There's no funding for law school. Right, right.

And it would be such a small program, isn't it? And, like, it's supposed to be of comparable, it's supposed to be equal. Right. M.U. had been around for, like, 100 years at this point. You think they're just gonna pop up a hundred year old law right right no no judge wm dinwiddie was like nice try guys and he set the trial for the summer of 1936 so charles houston came on down to missouri very concerned about how the court of public opinion would handle

the case. He hoped that a lot of black people would turn out to watch the trial. But here's the thing. The trial took place in Columbia, Missouri, and not a lot of black people lived in Columbia. Not many black people even lived, like, near Columbia. And plus, two black people had recently been lynched in Columbia by awful white people. So, yeah, the black folks. Yeah, they were like, we're staying the fuck out of Columbia. Absolutely. Understandably, they were like, no, not going to go see this trial. Yeah.

Hard pass. Mm-hmm. So when Charles Houston and the rest of the legal team arrived in court, they saw a few black people in the crowd, but the crowd was overwhelmingly white. And they were basically two types of people who showed up to this trial. It was the white law students who were like, hmm, I want to know more about this lawsuit that this law school, this boot scooting boogieogie this law scooting boogie that my school was involved in and then there were white farmers who thought it would be super entertaining to see black lawyers argue in court oh yeah what a show uh-huh oh my gosh fun fact Hillary Clinton when she was an attorney in Arkansas um and she would go to little towns for stuff.

She told a story about some guys showed up to watch the lady lawyer in court because they'd never seen that before. Oh my, like a sideshow? Yeah. What? Isn't that weird? Yes.

So this was a thing. Oh my gosh. In their opening statement, Lloyd Gaines' legal team simply stated the facts. Lloyd Gaines was qualified to attend MU. He'd been denied because of the color of his skin, and that was a violation of the 14th Amendment. Done. Wasn't super emotional, just a simple statement of the facts.

William Hogsett, who he was from Kansas City. And he represented the university. He went in a different direction with it. He got up there. Feather boa draped around his shoulders because he brought the drama, Brandy. The razzle dazzle, Kristen. Yes. He gave him the old razzle dazzle.

Beaten feather on. The old razzle dazzle! Beaten feather him. He gave him the old razzle dazzle. Beaten feather him. So he gave him a look that was unassailable, and they'd wait a year until he was available. No, he got up there and he's like, oh, oh, my, my, my. Oh, oh, my, my, my. Isn't it laudable that this man, Lloyd Gaines, wants to attend law school? Oh, his ambition just inspires us all. Oh, excuse me while I wipe this tear from my cheek.

You know something? Lloyd Gaines has every right to go to law school. He really does. I sure hope he doesn't. Just not here in the great state of Missouri. Uh-huh. Yep. Yep, that was the opening argument. The University of Missouri has been whites only for a hundred years. I think I speak for everyone when I say don't mess with the mayo don't mess with the mayo

yeah is that a phrase no are you just making phrases up I'm making phrases up that went over like a fart at a party listen they had a real creamy mayo situation at MU didn't want to mess with the mayo didn't want to make it spicy didn't want to mess with the mayo.

Didn't want to make it spicy. Didn't want to change it up one bit. Got it. And if you think that's weird, well, he's the one who said it. That's a direct quote. The fact is that Lloyd Gaines doesn't have a claim against the University of Missouri. It's not our rule. It's the state's rule.

No. Oh, okay. Because I believe he was also kind of representing the state. Yeah, not our rule. It's the state's rule. No. Oh, okay. Because I believe he was also kind of representing the state. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you. No. Who's the real bad guy here, Brandy? I don't fucking know. Not anybody white.

Let me give you a hint. Yeah, exactly. It's not the mayo. The mayo's not the problem. Now, he should simply apply to Lincoln University and ask that they create a law program for him. Sure thing. And then William did a few twirls and sat down in a flourish. For their first witness, the NAACP called Lloyd Gaines.

On the stand, Lloyd testified that he wanted to go to law school. He only applied to MU because that's where he wanted to go. He didn't take the out-of-state scholarship because, again, he wanted to go to MU. It would be cheaper to attend MU when you factored in moving and travel costs. Plus, he wanted to visit his family easily and quickly. He might not be able to do that if he moved out of state. Yes. Duh. Duh, man.

Then there was the fact that when he got his law degree, he wanted to practice law in Missouri. Naturally, it would be advantageous to learn about Missouri laws from a Missouri law school. Yes. On cross-examination, the attorneys for the university tried to make the point that Lloyd didn't actually care about law school. He'd brought this lawsuit because he was interested in helping the NAACP. They asked him if he had been advised by the NAACP to sue the university. He said no. They also tried to make the point that Lloyd knew he never had a shot at getting into MU. He'd applied just to start this lawsuit. Which again, I say, who cares? So fucking what?

Who cares? Who cares? Did you know we were racist? Right. If you didn't, that's your problem. Yeah. Come on. That's a stupid point.

Yeah, it is a stupid point. Yeah, it is a stupid point. They asked him, have you ever seen a black student at MU? At the time of your application, did you believe black students were barred from attending law school at the University of Missouri? Lloyd said no. Lloyd said no. When asked why he couldn't just fuck off to Iowa, Lloyd said that the Iowa Law School catalog specifically states that the curriculum is designed for the needs of residents of Iowa, for the practice of law in Iowa. So no, he didn't want to go to Iowa because he didn't want to practice law in Iowa. He wanted to practice in Missouri.

Next to the stand was the dean of the University of Missouri Law School, William Masterson. And boy, oh boy, did he do a bad job. Oh, no. So he started off by making the exceptionally stupid argument that all law schools are exactly the same. Yeah, that's not accurate at all. Hey, Harvard or DeVry doesn't matter. I don't think DeVry has law school. Well, since they're all the same, DeVry, you should start up your own law school. It's all the same textbooks. Therefore, there's no difference between schools.

And so Lloyd Gaines should just go out of state and he'll get the exact same education that they're serving up over at MU. But Charles Houston was like, OK, man, don't you pay particular attention to Missouri law at the University of Missouri? Yeah. And the dean said, we do not. What? Which is a lie. It's a total lie. It's a total lie.

Oh, yeah, at MU. The last thing we do is prepare people to practice in Missouri. Didn't even occur to us to do that. Then he said that, actually. Did he push his glasses up? Uh-huh. Actually, a student might get a better education at a brand new all-black law school. For example, one started at Lincoln University. How? Okay, good question. He said that you'd get a lot more opportunities to participate in class if there were only like three students. Okay, that's a stupid argument. And Charles goes, but if you only had one student, wouldn't you lose all that?

Yeah. And everyone was like, oh, shit. Ooh. lose all that? Yeah. And everyone was like, oh, shit. Then Charles asked him about the law school admissions process. And this is sad. We've got a medical emergency that happened. OK, so the dean had a horrible case of amnesia brought on by chronic racism because he couldn't remember a gosh darn thing about their admissions process. Oh, he couldn't? Yeah, yeah. A lot of people don't know about amnesia brought on by chronic racism.

It's a thing and it can happen. It's a real medical condition. So then the registrar, Silas Woods in Canada, took the stand and he proudly admitted that he discriminated against black students. It's one of the weirder pieces of testimony. Charles was like, Charles pointed out that they actually had Japanese students at the university. They had Chinese students. They had, like, not just white students.

But that's where they drew the line? Yeah. line yeah so the registrar said all things being equal if and a student of african descent which is how he put it applied then yeah they wouldn't get in okay yeah huh mm-hmm cool next charles called a guy who was like yeah know, creating a law school is kind of a big fucking deal. You can't just poof, create one. It's not like a taco truck. You can't just get one. Also, the state has no plans to develop one and no money set aside for one.

So let's stop being ridiculous about this idea of creating a new law school. Well, that's just it. It's not like it's going to happen tomorrow. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Then the defense took over. And they called witnesses who were basically like, segregated education is what we do here. We've done it for like 100 years.

It's kind of our specialty. We don't want to change it. The president of the University of Missouri testified that if they were to let black students into the law school, they'd have a lot of discipline issues. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was all really cool. It was great. Two weeks later, the judge issued his decision.

Without making any statements or explanations, he dismissed the lawsuit against the university. So he was also super racist? It's a real shocker that the Missouri judge was also a douchebag, but it's true. You know, I think this is one of those things. No, I was about to say something political. But I do think it's one of those things we're like it is shocking that we've got terrorists who are storming the capital yeah but it shouldn't be it shouldn't be because donald trump encouraged them has been encouraging it and his enablers continue to encourage it so of course

people are doing of course it happened of course it happened. Of course it happened. As if a Trump voter was enjoying this script, right? Anyway. They were like, yeah, don't mess with the mayo. I know that scene. Charles wasn't. Got it embroidered on a sampler. Why is everything embroidered on a sampler?

What is a sampler? Is that one of those round things? things yeah i didn't know that that was called a sampler you've said it a few times and i've always been like sampler because to me a sampler is like it's like a box of chocolates yeah or like that thing that you get at applebee's it's got all the appetizers that's exactly you know the only reason i'd go to Applebee's is if I was plotting a murder for hire. I think that's the only thing that happens there. It is. A little sad state of affair. Applebee's is terrible, too. Do you know how exciting it would be, though, to be a waiter or waitress at an Applebee's?

And witness a murder for hire plot going down? Yeah, and you'd be, like, taking notes, and you'd be like, don't worry, I'm going to record it. And then, oopsies, you forget to record. Anyway. Charles Houston wasn't worried. He saw this coming a mile away. And he immediately appealed the case to the Missouri Supreme Court. So that December, he made his argument again.

And two months later, the Missouri Supreme court unanimously sided with the lower court of course because they were racist too it goes all the way to the top are you ready for some steamy creamy bullshit oh my god oh look On your face. It was the creamy. It was creamy, wasn't it? That's what it did. You don't like that steamy creamy? No!

Just steamy? Steamy's fine. Okay. Here's what they said. They said that, quote, there are differences in the races, and a separate school is a great advantage for black students. And, you know, the thing about separate but equal is equality doesn't have to mean that we all get the same privileges. Okay, that's exactly what equality means. Yes. It's the definition of equality!

That is the funniest thing to me. It's like, dude, no, it absolutely means that. You know that word that has a very clear definition? It doesn't mean that. That's not what it means. Charles Houston heard the decision and he was like, wow, shocking.

Missouri is full of dicks. Who knew? Who knew? Who knews? I think maybe I was like, wow, shocking. Missouri is full of dicks. Who knew? Who knew? Who news? I think maybe I was thinking not news or anyway. By this point, it was 1938. And he was like, OK, I guess I need to take this thing all the way to the United States Supreme Court. Charles was cautiously optimistic. President Roosevelt had just added two new judges to the Supreme Court, and they didn't appear to be total dirtbags, which was very refreshing. The Supreme Court agreed to hear the case, and Charles delivered his argument, and in December of 1938 1938 the court found that the Missouri Supreme Court had been wrong wrong yeah the university had violated Lloyd's rights they had violated

his right to equal protection this idea of sending Lloyd Gaines to an out-of-state law school was bullshit a state must provide protection of equal laws. Steamy, creamy bullshit. Oh, you can't embrace it now once you rejected it so soundly, Brandi. The look of horror on your face. It was terrible. It's one of the worst things you've said. I know that's hard because I'm so straight-laced.

And I say such normal things to you all the time. So a state must provide protection of equal laws within its own jurisdiction. You shouldn't have to fuck off to Iowa to be treated well. But, of course, this wasn't a unanimous decision. And two human-sized douches wrote a dissenting opinion where they said that there were some real risks here you ready for the risks for example what if missouri gets this decision from the supreme court and they get so mad that they just shut down their law school entirely think of the white people what can you can you imagine give me a fucking break if that was the result that they

just shut down their only fucking law school that's ridiculous then they deserve to not have a law school also what if they integrated and quote as indicated by experience damnify both races. You know how when black people and white people get together, it damnifies both? Doesn't make any fucking sense. I don't even really know what damnifies both races. But I don't think it's good. But two douchebags couldn't ruin the party. This decision was huge. This opened up the highest levels of education to black Americans.

The NAACP was thrilled. Black leaders were thrilled. Everyone who loved justice was thrilled. The New York Times wrote, Once more, the Supreme Court has spoken out in defense of equality of human rights. The Iowa City Iowan threw a shit ton of shade at Missouri and said, The surprising thing is not the nature of the decision, but the fact that such a decision actually had to be made affecting a neighboring university. Oh, shit!

The Kansas City Call, which is Kansas City's black newspaper, wrote, if keeping the races separate is so important to Missourians that co-education is unthinkable, Yes! Yes! It was a good day for justice, Brandi! That was my justice test. Was there like a hip thrust? Absolutely. I'm surprised you didn't get smacked in the face.

We're social distance right now, so that would really be something. It would be something. That would be one hell of a thrust. But I love justice. Bonus for justice. That's right. But one person was tight lipped, and that was Lloyd Gd gaines because he was like fuck do i have to go to law school now i mean that's kind of my theory right honestly yeah in the years after his initial

suit lloyd struggled america was in the midst of a depression and he had a really hard time finding work. Some called it the Great Depression. You know, I should have said that, shouldn't I? It wasn't just a depression. It was the Great Depression. Oh, that's right. 2008, that was the Great Recession. Yes. We had the Great Depression.

Yeah, back in the 30s. Uh-huh. And I just call you the Big D. Because of your rudeness. Oh, okay. Okay. So America was in the midst of a Great Depression, and he had a hard time finding work. He eventually got a civil service job in Michigan, and while he was there, he got his master's degree in economics.

Wow. I know, right? But by this point, Lloyd Gaines was famous in a kind of scary way. He was this civil rights leader, and that meant a lot of really horrible people hated him. Yeah. And again, there was this issue of whether he had ever really wanted to go to law school in the first place. The truth was, he was actually a little afraid to go to MU, and his mom was afraid for him, too. I don't blame him at all. The truth was, he was actually a little afraid to go to MU. And his mom was afraid for him, too.

I don't blame him at all. Yeah, no, so white people were freaking out about this Supreme Court decision. What if someone wanted to hurt him? What if they wanted to lynch him? But the decision meant that he kind of had to go

to law school, right? Yeah. It would seem crazy not to after all this. But that created a whole new set of obstacles. Now he had to go to law school, right? Yeah. It would seem crazy not to after all this. But that created a whole new set of obstacles. Now he had to figure out how to pay for law school. He could go now, but he couldn't afford to go. Yeah. So he took on speaking roles and collected donations to help pay for law school. It put him in a strange position because sometimes he liked the limelight, but other times he was so stressed out by it. It was so much pressure. So when that Supreme Court decision came down,

Lloyd was asked to comment on the decision. And he declined. The Supreme Court had made it clear. MU either needed to let Lloyd Gaines into its law school, or Missouri needed to create another equal law school for black students and they needed to do it pronto. The decision seemed obvious. Just let Lloyd into MU. Duh. But a Missouri lawyer named John Taylor, who was also the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee and who referred to himself as an unreconstructed rebel. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Yep, yep, yep. Decided to go a different route. He introduced House Bill No. 195, which gave Lincoln University $200,000 to, quote, establish whatever graduate and professional schools are necessary Wow. Yeah, it's not enough. It's not enough. Mm-hmm.

That's not enough. A shit ton of graduate programs out of thin air. It's not enough. Mm-hmm. Black people and a few good white folks protested this bill. This was bullshit. The universe, steamy, creamy bullshit. The University of Missouri needed to just let black students into its freaking graduate programs. But the bill was extremely popular with douchebags. Turns out

douchebags were the ones running the state. Yeah. And so it was signed by the governor. Oh, no. And so Lincoln University was ordered to create a special law school specifically for Lloyd Gaines just in time for the following school year. So the people at Lincoln got to work, and they rented out a building that used to be a cosmetology school, and they rushed to hire four faculty members, and they got someone from Howard to come serve as the dean, and they spent a ton of money on books for their new library, and that fall they had a class of 30 students. But Lloyd Gaines wasn't one of them.

Wow. And that's because the NAACP was headed back to court to say that this new pop-up law school was not equal to the University of Missouri Law School. Missouri was playing a trick here. They were not complying with the Supreme Court ruling. So Charles Houston and his legal team got to work. They started deposing people right and left, and they were like, OK, now we have to depose Lloyd. We need to see what he thinks. Does he think Lincoln's new school is equivalent to MU's? Would he consider going there?

Blah, blah, blah. So they reached out, and they didn't hear from him. Did he disappear? They tried everything. They couldn't find him. They ran his picture in newspapers all over the country. They asked for anyone who knew him to call them. They still didn't hear anything.

They reached out to Lloyd's friends and family, and they discovered that they hadn't heard from him either. His friends and family weren't that worried, though. This was typical of Lloyd. He was kind of a lone wolf. He traveled alone a lot. Sometimes he just fell off the radar. That was just him.

But by that point, Lloyd had been off the radar for like a year and a half. Oh, my gosh. People began to retrace his steps. Here's what they found. So Lloyd had been working in Michigan, like I told you, and then on New Year's Eve of 1938, he came home to St. Louis. He said he planned to stay there until September. At that point, the Supreme Court decision had come down and he was preparing to attend MU. He began working at a filling station to help pay for law school. On January 9th, he spoke with the St. Louis branch of the NAACP.

He told the crowd he wanted to go to MU for law school. That was his plan. Around this time, Lloyd quit his job at the gas station because he discovered that the owner was being shady and selling like low-grade fuel but marking it as high-grade. And he was like, oh, I'm a public figure. I can't get caught up in any kind of fraud. So he just quit. After that, he left for Kansas City to make a speech at Centennial Methodist Church, which is still standing today.

Lloyd wanted to stay in Kansas City but couldn't find work. So then he went to Chicago. He told people he was going to stay in Chicago for a little bit and then come back to St. Louis. On March 4, 1939, he mailed his mom a letter from a train station in Chicago. Here's what it said. Dear Mother, I have come to Chicago hoping to find it possible to make my own way. I hope by this letter to make very clear to you the reasons for such a step. As for publicity relative to the university case, I have found that my race still likes to applaud, shake hands, pat me on the back, and say how great and noble is the idea, how historical and socially significant the case.

But, and there it ends. Off and out of the confines of publicity columns, I am just a man, not one who has fought and sacrificed to make the case possible, one who is still fighting and sacrificing, almost the supreme sacrifice to see that it is complete and lasting success for 13 million Negroes. No, just a man. Sometimes I wish I were a plain, ordinary man whose name no one recognized. I enjoyed my brief stay in KC, but finding no possible opening for work there, I decided to come over here. I found Eddie Mae Page at home and had her cook lunch, ham and eggs, wheat cakes, and coffee. She had some of her chums over, and so I stayed until Mrs. Page came in from work before getting a room at the Y. So far, I haven't been able to dig up a single job prospect, but I'm

still trying. Paid up my room rent until March 7th. If nothing turns up by then, I'll have to make another arrangement. Should I forget to write for a time? Don't worry about it. I can look out for myself, okay. As ever, Lloyd. That's really sad. Yeah. Yeah. I think this guy just wanted to be a teacher. Yeah. Like what he wanted and what his calling was was to become a teacher. And he just graduated at the wrong time. Yeah. Couldn't make that happen. And I think he got into this lawsuit for all the right reasons, but he just didn't.

This was not his calling. Right. Yeah. Lloyd didn't find much luck in Chicago, but he did find some brothers from the Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity house, and they let him move in. In this time period, he spent a lot of time with one of his friends in Chicago, and she said that he didn't seem like himself. She said he seemed to be, quote, running away from something, just what it was, I don't know. from something. Just what it was, I don't know. She says Lloyd told her that he might not bother going to law school, but at least he made it possible for other black women and men to go. Lloyd stayed at the frat house for a little while, and at one point he sent his mom a postcard,

and it said something to the effect of, goodbye, if you don't hear from me anymore, you know I'll be all right then he put on his coat walked out of the frat house and said something about going to get stamps and he disappeared wow all he left behind was a duffel bag full of dirty laundry oh my gosh that was the last anyone had heard from him. But the NAACP was freaking out. They needed Lloyd for this case. Everyone needed Lloyd. Without him, the whole thing could be dismissed.

So they tracked down a few leads. There was a rumor that he was teaching in New York. There was a rumor that he'd gone off to Mexico. There was a rumor that some Missouri douchebag who loved segregation had, like, bribed Lloyd to go live in another country under a different name. Columbia, maybe. Columbia. There was a rumor that Lloyd was murdered by racist bigots. There was a rumor that Lloyd was tired of fame, tired of being a public figure, tired of being broke, and died by suicide.

Oh, my gosh. People looked and looked and looked for Lloyd Gaines, but they couldn't find him. And in January of 1940, the state moved to dismiss the case. And Charles Houston and the rest of the legal team, they couldn't oppose the motion. They didn't have a client. They had no idea where he was. So the court just dismissed the case. Years passed. Charles Houston continued to fight to dismantle Jim Crow laws. He fought against segregation in education. He fought

against racial housing covenants. He mentored generations of black attorneys. And eventually, Charles Houston became known as the man who killed Jim Crow. Wow. The Lloyd Gaines case was an important step in dismantling segregation in education. But Charles Houston didn't live long enough to see the real legacy of the work he did in that case. Because he died from a heart attack in 1950 when he was just 54 years old. Wow. 1950, when he was just 54 years old. And four years after that, the Supreme Court made their historic ruling in Brown v. The Board of Education. The Browns had been represented by the NAACP's chief counsel and Charles Houston's longtime mentee, Thurgood Marshall. In that ruling,

the Supreme Court declared that, quote, separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. The following year, in 1955, Lincoln University closed its law school. They didn't have enough students to sustain the program. So, in a sense, the fight had been won. But where was Lloyd? No law enforcement agency ever bothered to look into his disappearance. So in the 1950s, a reporter for Ebony magazine decided to investigate. The reporter talked to Lloyd's friends and family, and Lloyd's family expressed bitterness toward the NAACP. They said they felt like Lloyd was exploited by the organization.

That's really sad. It is really sad. They said they didn't know where he was, but they believed he was still alive. Lloyd's mother held out hope that he'd gone to Mexico or New York. Two of Lloyd's friends actually said they'd gotten postcards from Mexico from him, but they couldn't show the reporter the postcards. And why would you get rid of those? Yeah.

So that's where the story ended. His family believed he was alive and that he'd been disillusioned with his role in the lawsuit and just decided to disappear. More time passed. The University of Missouri clung to its racist bullshit for years. In fact, it wasn't until 1968 that a black student actually graduated from the law school. Holy shit.

I know. And it wasn't until 1950 that a black student was even allowed to enroll in the undergraduate program. Oh my goodness. But over time, public opinion shifted. The university and the state became embarrassed by what they'd done. And so, in 2006, the University of Missouri Law School posthumously awarded Lloyd Gaines an honorary degree, and the Supreme Court of Missouri granted him an honorary posthumous law license.

M.U. now has a scholarship fund in his name and a portrait of him hangs in the law school building. But people still wonder what happened to him. Yeah, what happened to him? Well, in 2007, a reporter from the Riverfront Times decided to look into his disappearance. The reporter discovered that Lorenzo Green, who was this big-time civil rights activist in Missouri and who had been a mentor to Lloyd Gaines but had since died, had told people that after Lloyd disappeared, they spoke on the phone several times. Lorenzo said that Lloyd had become disillusioned with his role in this lawsuit

and that he'd gone to Mexico City and he he had a business there, and he was doing well. But not everybody believes that story, obviously. One of Lloyd Gaines' great nieces is a woman named Tracy Berry, and she actually went to law school and became a federal prosecutor. Wow. I know. And she said she understands why her family and other people clung to the idea that Lloyd went to Mexico.

But she thinks that it's much more likely that he was murdered. She said, When you think of those old photos of lynchings and burned bodies, who wouldn't want to think that he lived a full life in Mexico? But based on the love my grandmother and great-grandmother had for their brother and son, that's really hard for me to reconcile. If he wanted to walk away, there are easier ways to do it than to sever ties from the entire family. To this day, Lloyd Gaines' fate remains a mystery.

to this day, Lloyd Gaines' fate remains a mystery. Wow. And his motives for bringing forth the lawsuit are still a bit of a mystery. Yeah. I don't think it matters. I don't think it matters at all. I think, if anything, this shows how important it is to find the right plaintiff. And that's so much easier said than done, obviously. Yeah. If anything, this shows how important it is to find the right plaintiff. And that's so much easier said than done, obviously. Yeah.

But, gosh, it just has to be a person who really wants this for themselves. Yeah. I think, though, he could have gone into this thinking it was what he wanted. Yeah. And then, holy shit, this is so much more than I ever anticipated it would be. That's the interesting thing, right? Because I think he graduated high school a little early and, you know, it was fresh out of undergrad. Yeah.

And he started this, what you think you want when you're like 22. Yeah. Oh, my God. A few years later. Yeah. Yeah. When all of a sudden everyone knows your name and all the scary people know your name. And then you it's no longer your choice.

Right. It feels like you're being forced to do it. Yeah. Being forced to enter a really scary situation. Yeah. Yeah. Being forced to enter a really scary situation. Yeah. Yeah. And a very potentially dangerous situation.

Absolutely. What do you think happened to him? Yeah. I think it's very likely that he was killed. I hope that's not what happened to him obviously. I've been thinking about this a lot. Because was killed. I hope that's not what happened to him, obviously. I've been thinking about this a lot because there's part of me that's like, well, yeah, he was killed. Yeah.

But you know what's interesting? Thurgood Marshall, decades after this whole thing, spoke about it. And he spoke about it with some bitterness toward Lloyd. And he basically, the quote that I'm remembering was something to the effect of, you know, we put in all this work and then the guy just disappeared. OK. If I really thought someone was murdered. Yeah, you wouldn't carry that. Yeah, you would. Yeah, you wouldn't you wouldn't say it like and then he just disappeared. Yeah. and so it made me really wonder did he just disappear on his own accord i really hope that's what i mean yeah that would be amazing if that's what happened that would be

absolutely amazing um it just doesn't seem super likely i agree yeah yeah um I agree. Yeah. Yeah. So this is all a sad story, but really the work for that case is what it was a big stepping stone toward Brown versus the Board of Education. And it was huge. It was huge. Yeah. And that's the story of the mysterious Lloyd Gaines. That was so good. Oh, that was really interesting interesting what are your thoughts on separate but equal well it's never i mean it's just never going to be equal it's what if it

could be equal i i still don't i don't understand the point of it like see i um i don't know i always think about this when like so i went to a women's college yeah norm went to a historically black college yeah and i do think there are some real advantages to being removed from the dominant society for a couple years of your education yeah i think it can really help you out um yeah yeah that's really interesting. It does really make me wonder if it could be equal. If it could truly be equal. Yeah.

Yeah. What would the benefits really be? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think, you know, sometimes removing some of the white douchebags from a situation can be a real good thing. You know?

Yeah. Ugh. Ugh. That was really good. That was really good that was really good thank you i that story was nuts oh you know what um i'm i'm sorry this is just this just popped into my head yeah i had stumbled across that story and then like a week later someone in the discord i think it was grazing is stealing um said hey have you seen this story? And I was like, oh my God, get out of my head. But anyway, thank you to Grazing is Stealing in the Discord. And I hope I'm not making that up because that'd be weird.

I have to pee. Go pee. Alright, you want to talk about a sweet little church lady? I sure do. It was about 1230 in the afternoon on January 23rd, 2008, when Judy Zellner pulled into the parking lot of the Trinity Evangelical Lutheran Church in Springfield Township, Pennsylvania. The church had been serving the picturesque rural town since before the American Revolution. Dang.

OK. And it had a small but loyal congregation. Revolution. Dang. Okay. And it had a small but loyal congregation. On this particular day, Judy Zellner was there to clean the church, one of her duties as church sexton. Never heard of that position.

It's a real thing apparently. Okay. Judy whipped into the parking lot and threw her car in park. You know, we're really sexton positive on this podcast. We can't cut that joke no 12 people are gonna laugh right real hard she whipped into the parking lot and she threw her car in park she had to use the restroom so badly that she barely took the time to recognize that another car was present she put her key into the lock and found that the door was actually already unlocked which was against church policy Mm-hmm. she knew immediately that something was wrong. Something on the floor behind the desk caught her eye.

It was a woman. And there was blood everywhere. Judy wasn't able to tell who was on the floor, but she could tell they'd been shot. She thought of every episode of CSI that she'd ever seen, and she knew she shouldn't disrupt the scene. So she grabbed the cordless phone off the desk and ran outside to call the police. When police arrived on the scene, they found that the woman,

despite a massive loss of blood, still had a heartbeat. Judy stood by, watching as they rushed to get the woman on a stretcher. She had been in the church office. That meant it was almost certainly someone Judy knew and likely someone she was close to. As paramedics secured her, the woman's head rolled to the side and her blood soaked hair fell away from her face just long enough for Judy to get a good look. She gasped. It was her friend, Rhonda Smith. Rhonda was 42 and had been attending Trinity for the last couple of years. She had come to the church seeking help for her various struggles in life. She'd been diagnosed as bipolar. She struggled with relationships and always seemed to be drawn to the wrong type of man.

She was struggling spiritually, emotionally, and financially. So she'd turn to the church for guidance and support. And she'd really found it there among the congregation. And her congregation supported her as she lay in a hospital bed clinging to life. Her parents, Jim and Dot, her pastor, Greg Shreves, and other members of the congregation circled around her in prayer until the doctors told them there was nothing else they could do for her. She succumbed to her injuries the next day. Following her death, investigators came to Jim and Dot with some tough questions. Was it possible with her history of mental health issues that Rhonda had died by suicide? No, they told them. It wasn't possible.

She had been in a really happy, healthy place lately. Just a few days earlier, she had stood up in front of the congregation at Trinity and thanked everyone for the emotional and financial support they'd given her. The suicide theory really hadn't been that strong from the beginning because no gun had been found at the church. Oh. Police had questioned Judy to see if she had possibly found a gun and maybe taken it to preserve her friend's image or perhaps in a rush to get medical attention to Rhonda. The gun had gotten maybe kicked under a piece of furniture or something. But no, Judy was adamant she'd never seen a gun that day and she'd certainly known if she would have kicked one, there was no gun there.

We all forget the time we kicked the gun. Uh-huh. Then the autopsy results came back. This was no suicide. Two bullets were found in Rhonda's brain. And stippling was found on the back of her hands. and stippling was found on the back of her hands. This stippling was essentially burn marks caused by gunpowder,

which meant that Rhonda had been shot at close range and had put her hands up to shield herself as the shots had been fired. Rhonda Smith had been, without a doubt, murdered. But by who? Ma. Sorry. Investigators sat down with the leader of the church, Pastor Greg Shreves, to see what he could tell them about his congregants. Greg Shreves was not your typical pastor. He was a former golf pro who had come to church later in life.

And he was like super fucking good looking. Like, the most handsome older man pastor ever. Should I look him up? Or am I going to see? No, you could look it up. Let's see. Pastor Greg what? Shreves.

Oh, he does it with an A, huh? Yeah. Oh, I must be looking at the wrong man. None of these pictures are him. I'm seeing a woman with a real strong mullet. Yeah, none of these pictures are him. My. Oh, God.

I mean, yeah. This can't possibly be it. None of these are him. Okay, I'm going to close that. Yeah, none of of these are him. Okay. I'm going to close that. Yeah. None of those people are him. You ever think you're biting into a maraschino cherry and you get a cherry tomato instead? That's what just happened to me.

Anyway, you'll just have to take my word for it. Silver Fox. Just kind of like a big, like, you know, muscly kind of man. Okay. Not like overly, you know, like A.C. Slater. Oh. Some people like A.C. Slater. Kind of an athletic build.

I got you. I got you. Strong man. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Investigators asked Pastor Shreves if there was anyone in the congregation who could have done this, who had issues with Rhonda.

And they could tell that he was reluctant to say anything negative about any of his members. Well, yeah, to be like, hey, who could the murderer be? I've got a list right here. Right, exactly. But the more they dug, the more he was willing to talk. And maybe there was one person who'd been acting a little bit odd lately. Well, maybe not so much lately as this person had just kind of always been odd. The woman Pastor Shreves was referring to was Mary Jane Fonder.

She was a 65-year-old woman who had been attending the church for the better part of 20 years. The pastor told investigators that Mary Jane had never really fit in at the church. After 20 years? Okay. But in recent months, he feared that she was growing obsessed with him. It started innocently enough when Pastor Shreves had first come to the church. He saw Mary Jane as someone who wanted desperately to fit in, but who others just generally found annoying. She talked too much.

She had an opinion about everything. And she was just always kind of around. But the pastor also saw great things in Mary Jane. She was a gifted singer and a skilled artist. So he thought perhaps the way to handle Mary Jane was to give her some special tasks around the church. Yeah. Make her feel needed. And that went well for a while, until one day when the pastor was having Mary Jane put her artistic skills to use on a new bulletin board at the church, and she whispered to him something to the effect of,

you can't deny that there's Oh my god! Oh my god, what? What was that? I fucking watched! What did you say to sit down? I don't know! Wait, when you said sorry? Maybe.

Oh my gosh. Oh my god, that scared the shit out of me. Okay, so they're working on a bulletin board one day and Mary Jane kind of leans over and says something to the effect of, You can't deny that there's something between us. Oh, God. I don't think anyone has ever said that and it's been mutual. Right, exactly. In that moment, the pastor just kind of like laughed off the comment.

Oh, boy. But he knew he needed to start putting some space between himself and Mary Jane. She'd obviously taken his well-intentioned attention as something else. And so he started avoiding Mary Jane. But he couldn't deny it. But then the phone call started. god this poor guy she began leaving these long rambling messages on his answering machine up to 15 times a week no no no no and then she started leaving food for him in his house.

What do you mean? Like, he'd come home. His house was located. Did she have a key? Well, his house was located either, it's kind of confusing, either right next to the church or attached to the church. So, yeah, like whoever had a key to the church probably had a key, whatever. Oh, fuck. And so somehow she was making entry into his home and leaving him food inside his house. So the pastor went to the church president to discuss what he should do about Mary Jane.

Would you eat the food? No. Norm would eat the food. I promise you, Norm would eat the food. You know what? The most alarming story that's ever been told on this podcast is the story your dad told about the mystery cake that showed up on his desk and he ate it anyway. Yeah. Yes. but you know what i had the same thing happen to me at work somebody left a cupcake on my desk had no idea who did it but it looked so good and honestly i don't know if somebody like it depends on what time you hit me you You hit me like 6.15, 6.30.

I haven't had dinner yet. You drop off a lasagna. You come home. On your kitchen island, it's just a single, like, prepared plate of dinner that's just been left there for you. You have no idea who brought it. Would you eat it? Honestly, Brandi, I know you're looking at me like the answer is obvious. And I'm telling you.

You might. I might be like, you know what, maybe Kyla dropped by, maybe Jay dropped by. Who knows what well-wisher has brought me this bounty. But, yeah, I mean, if it looked good, that would be the criteria. Does it look good? Yeah, probably. And if it turns out to have been dropped off by a creepy stalker, then I'd be like, look, Mary J., you gotta fuck off. Just trying to be honest.

All right. So the pastor's alarmed that food is showing up in his house. And he's getting these rambling messages. Like, I read a transcript of someone one of them was like i had the most glorious dream today i dreamt of all kinds of wonderful things nobody wants to hear about your dreams so he goes to the church president and he's like what do i do about mary jane and they decided maybe they would just sit down with her and they just ask her to stop calling and leaving the messages. And the pastor would start locking his residence. Absolutely.

Yes. Yeah. And so had he ever up to this point, had he told her flat out, I'm not interested? No. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And so that's what they did. They sat down with her, said, you got to stop leaving the messages. Also, cool it with the food. Yeah. You know? But the calls didn't stop. Oh, yeah. And the food kept coming.

You know what they say. It was being dropped off on his doorstep because the door was locked. What do they say, Kristen? Weirdo's going to weird. I don't think they say that. They say that. Weirdo's going to weird, weird? Weirdo's gonna weird. I don't think they say that. Weirdo's gonna weird, weird, weird, weird, weird. So again, Pastor Shreves went and talked to the church president and they decided maybe it was time to suggest that Mary Jane find a new church home. Find a new church home.

But I'm guessing they didn't just want to flat out like kick her out of the church. And maybe they'd been just like a little bit too polite about how they suggested it. Because Mary Jane Fonder just kept Donna coming to Trinity Lutheran Church. Disagree, Brandi. Gotta disagree. What? I think when somebody's a super big fucking weirdo, Yeah. You can be super direct with them. Uh-huh.

And they will just ignore. I mean, she just, she did. So you must be right. So, like, I think most situations can be resolved by just being super direct. And, like, it's a little awkward. But, you know, hey, if it turns out okay in the end. Yeah. Some people.

And maybe that's what they did. Maybe they were like, okay, Mary Jane, this is run its course. You're going to have to go somewhere else. She didn't fucking care. She just kept on it coming. She kept dropping the food off. She kept leaving the messages. It's like the saying goes, weirdos going to weirdos. It's not a saying.

So after speaking to the pastor, the investigators did a little asking around the church. And it seemed that he wasn't the only one who had their suspicions that maybe Mary Jane was the one responsible for Rhonda's murder. Apparently, whispers about her had started almost immediately after that grisly discovery in the church office. After that grisly discovery in the church office. Mary Jane made people uncomfortable and she seemed to be displaying some jealousy towards Rhonda lately. One congregant, Sue Brenner, told the story of that day not long before Rhonda was murdered where she stood up in church and gave that emotional thank you to the pastor and the congregation for all the spiritual and financial support that they had given her. When Sue arrived home from church that day, she got a call from Mary Jane Fonder. And she seemed really angry. She said, Sue, did you know that the church has been supporting Rhonda? And Sue had told her, yes,

they'd taken up a collection for her when she'd lost her job. And she'd come to the pastor and said that she wasn't going to be able to pay her rent. And so, you know, he reached out to the congregation. Yeah, this is a normal thing. Very normal church thing. Yes. But Mary Jane's response to this really shocked Sue. Mary Jane seemed jealous and upset. And she made a comment about how, well, nobody helped me out when I needed help. Okay. Yeah. Was it possible that Mary Jane was jealous?

Yes. Of Rhonda? Yes, my God, yes. The younger woman who had come into church and done in two years what Mary Jane had been trying to do for 20 just fit right in? Detectives decided it was probably time to bring her in and see what she had to say about it. And that was a lot. Okay. When detectives sat down Mary Jane Fonder, she started talking and she didn't stop talking for more than four hours.

Oh, no. Oh, no. She told them every single gripe, complaint and dissatisfaction that came across her mind. While it took some time to get there, ultimately detectives were able to piece together some pretty solid information from the hours-long vent session. Can you imagine? I cannot. I cannot imagine. Four hours of hearing some old weirdo complain.

So here's what they came up with. Here's what they put together. Lay it on me. First, Mary. People spend too much time looking at their cell phones. Mary Jane was feeling very excluded from the church. I mean, they'd flat out ask her to leave. Well, yeah, that'll do it.

It seemed people were always getting together without her. They went to lunch after choir practice and they didn't even think to invite her. I mean, that does suck. It does suck. I agree. Second, Mary Jane had feelings for Pastor Greg Shreves. Intense sexual feelings. Okay, Brandy.

She admitted. You know what? Did she say intense? She did. Okay. And she was sure that he felt it too. No, he didn't. No, he didn't.

The silver fox was not interested. No, he wasn't. Third, Mary Jane was concerned for the pastor's reputation. Oh, I'm sure. You see. He doesn't have the reputation of fucking me, so that's a really alarming thing for him. No, Kristen, he had been meeting with Rhonda in his office for one-on-one counseling sessions. Mm-hmm.

And Mary Jane was just very concerned about how that might look to others. Not jealous, Kristen. Oh, sure. Not jealous at all. Just concerned. Just very concerned. Extremely concerned about his reputation and only his reputation. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Real normal stuff. Great. Great. Detectives thought that what they'd managed to decipher in Mary Jane's ramblings might just add up to motive. So it was time to ask some tough questions. They asked Mary Jane if she owned a gun. So they'd already done a records check.

They already knew the answer. Well, yeah, they had four hours. She was the registered owner of a.38 caliber revolver, which just so happened to be the same caliber of gun that killed Rhonda Smith. Mary Jane told them the truth. Kind of. Okay. Yes, she had owned a.38 caliber revolver, but she'd gotten rid of it years ago.

Oh, yeah. Just sick of it. Way back in 1994, she'd tossed that gun into nearby Lake Nothomixon. Oh, shut up. Shut up. She'd had some kind of frightening experience with it. Never wanted to do that again.

And so she just, whoop, tossed it in the lake. Yeah, don't sell it. No. I mean, come on. Tossed it right in the lake, Kristen, 15 years ago. Then detectives just came out and asked her, she killed ronda smith mary jane seemed offended sure that she could even be considered a suspect i'm offended too just thinking about it she said that ronda was a very sweet person and she'd never wish anything but good things for her and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Plus, she was at the hair salon that morning. So there was no way she could have murdered Rhonda. Okay. Okay. Now, a hair salon, pretty good alibi. You got a bunch of people there. You probably got the records from the credit card. Let's hear it.

Okay. So Mary Jane left that interrogation room that day, basically saying that if they wanted to speak to her again, they'd have to contact her attorney. Wow. She made some, like, little statement about, like, oh, no, you're not going to pin this on me. Mm-hmm. The detectives hadn't gotten everything they wanted out of the interrogation, but they'd gotten enough to move forward with a little bit of an investigation into Mary Jane. They started with her alibi. They were able to confirm that Mary Jane had been to the hair salon that day. But the timing didn't quite match up with what she'd told them.

The medical examiner placed the time of Rhonda's shooting somewhere around 10 a.m. And Mary Jane hadn't signed in for her appointment until 1122. That would have given her plenty of time to shoot Rhonda and make it to her hair appointment. Brandy, what would you do if I found out that someone had come to their hair appointment right after murdering someone? Holy shit, what would I do? Would that be like the number one story? Like when you meet a person you'd be like hi i'm brandy and one time yes yeah yeah yeah that's weird do you know what okay side note what i did i my number my story that is like the most the craziest experience I've ever had. I've never really told anyone. I found out.

Okay. One day I had this guy come into my salon. He seemed like a youngish guy, like 18 to 20. Okay. He wanted to dye his hair black. Okay. So I dyed his hair black. The next day, his mom called the salon, yelled at me.

What? Told me that he was 14 and that I'd helped to disguise a runaway. What? Yes. Really? Yes. I had no idea. He looked plenty old to be in the salon on his own.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's not illegal for a 14-year-old to go into a salon and ask for it. No, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. What'd you say to her? I said, I'm very sorry. Yeah. I mean, what else could I say? Wait, so, I have so many questions now. How long had he been running? I don't know.

Brandy. I mean, they'd obviously? I don't know. Brandy. I mean, they'd obviously recovered him by that point. Pretty darn quickly, yeah. Yeah. My fault. He ran away, I guess. They would have caught him

two hours sooner. Had I not colored his hair. Yeah. That's right. Do you ever still think about that kid? Obviously. I'm telling you about it right now.

Do you know his name? No. I don't remember it. I wish I did. I'm telling you about it right now. Do you know his name? No. I don't remember it. I wish I did. I know. I'd look him up, see how he's doing these days. Absolutely.

I mean, this was like, I was a brand new stylist too, so I was like, oh my gosh, did I do something? It's like my very first salon job. Like the weirdest thing that has happened to you

happened right when you were new. Yes, I was literally a brand new stylist. Man. Yeah. Yeah. happened right when you were yes i was literally a brand new stylist man yeah yeah okay anyway back to this story there are too many tangents on this podcast there are way too many tangents that's exactly what i say too so while the investigators were at the salon following up on the alibi, they actually were given a bit of a gift. Mary Jane, who often wore a wig, had left hers behind at the salon after her appointment that day. If she'd been wearing it when she shot Rhonda, it could have gunshot residue on it.

So they sent it off to the lab for testing. Is this a thing people do? Would you like leave a wig with a hairstylist? No, no, no, no. It was like an accident. Like she came in wearing it, took it off, got her natural hair styled and then left without grabbing her wig. Oh, so it was an accident. Or it was like a red herring.

I'm going to leave my wig behind as proof that I was here. And also maybe it's not the wig I was wearing when I committed the murder. Ooh, no. No. No? She's not that smart. She might be. She's probably not.

No, she probably just absentmindedly left her wig behind. Yeah, because she just committed a murder. Yeah. And that can kind of mess with your head. One might say. Yeah. In the meantime, so they've sent the wig off to the lab to test it for GSR. In the meantime, they kept an eye on Mary Jane.

And boy, was she exhibiting some odd behavior. Well, weirdo's gonna weird. I mean, that's like, that's just her, right? Yes. She started spending a lot of time with Jim and Dot Smith, Rhonda's parents. Oh, no. I hate it when people do this. So for this, I watched, well, I didn't actually watch it.

I read a Dateline episode. This is your thing. Yeah. You like to read Dateline episodes. I do. I do like to read Dateline episodes. You strange, strange person. So I read a Dateline episode.

And on it, Jim kind of recounts how this all started with a pie. Mary Jane called them and offered to bring over a pie she had baked for them. And they politely declined. They knew Mary Jane from church. And they were like, no, weirdo, you stay on your side. We'll be fine over here. Thanks, but no thanks. Right.

But of course, she showed up with the pie anyway. Oh, my God. And it continued like that for some time. She'd drop off some food for the Smiths fairly regularly, which we obviously know is a very common churchy thing. Yeah. In a time of loss, but, you know, not when it's like some weirdo. They've politely declined.

Yeah. One day, Jim noticed that Mary Jane's shoes were in terrible shape. He's like, Mary Jane, you really need some new shoes. She's like, oh, yeah, yeah. It's pretty worn out. And so he offered her some of Rhonda's shoes. Oh. Maybe they'd fit her.

And they happened to be the same size. And somehow from there, Mary Jane Fonder ended up sitting next to them at church every Sunday wearing their dead daughter's shoes, all the while being the number one suspect in her murder. Oh. Hate it. Hate it. Hate it. Yep. By spring of 2008, detectives had hit a bit of a roadblock in their investigation into Mary Jane. The wig hadn't tested positive for GSR, which of course didn't mean she wasn't guilty.

Right, right. It just meant that they needed more evidence to prove it. And then they got a call. A gift from God, if you will. Okay, Keith Morrison. This was a Keith Morrison episode. You sounded like best value Keith Morrison there. I am not buying it.

One March afternoon, a father and son were fishing in Lake Nockamixon when the son, Garrett, ventured off to get a closer look at a gray heron along the bank. It was a gray heron, which is a bird, I think. As he stepped closer to the water, something shiny caught his eye. He reached down to pick it up. It was a silver revolver he called his dad over to check it out and his dad opened the chamber and there were live rounds inside oh my god nearby

they also found a box of ammunition matching the ammunition inside the gun they obviously turned their discovery over to the police very quickly it was determined that this was Mary Jane Fonder's revolver. And what was really weird was that despite her claims that she'd thrown it into the lake nearly 15 years ago, it was in pristine condition. Amazing. Yeah. Wow. An expert determined not only had this gun only been in the lake for a short time,

ballistics tests confirmed that it was the gun that fired the shots that killed Rhonda Smith. On April 1st, 2008, Mary Jane Fonder was arrested and charged with murder. Her trial began in October of that same year. Prosecutors laid out their case for the jury it was simple this case was all about jealousy mary jane fonder was jealous of ronda smith she was jealous that she'd been able to do in two years what she hadn't achieved in 20 years she'd fit right in she was jealous of the attention that Rhonda was receiving from the pastor with whom she was infatuated. On the morning of the murder, the prosecutors theorized Mary Jane had called the church to leave another one of her rambling messages for the pastor. She knew he was out of

town at a retreat, only she hadn't gotten the machine. Rhonda had answered the phone. What the hell was Rhonda doing in the church office? It turns out that the pastor had asked Rhonda to cover the office for him in his absence, answer the phones, etc. But it had sent Mary Jane over the edge. She'd stormed into the office that day and shot Rhonda twice at close range. They offered up expert testimony about that revolver. The expert talked about how the ballistics tests linked the bullets that killed Rhonda to the gun registered to Mary Jane. And as for her claims that she'd thrown that gun into the lake over a decade ago, simply not possible, said the expert. It was in nearly pristine condition. This gun had been in that lake only a short amount of time.

Same thing went for the ammunitions box. It was in nearly brand new condition. Yeah. However, in a very tense moment where the prosecutor admits that he almost shit his pants. No. While the expert was demonstrating the pristine condition of the gun. Oh my God. He opened the chamber and then wasn't able to get it to close again.

It was like their whole argument about this being like a, no, he didn't almost shoot anybody. I mean, you've seen that footage right up those videos where the guy's like, I know I'm going to demonstrate how to safely clean a gun. No, so he's showing the jury how this is like a gun that has only been submerged for a short amount of time. It had been in water for 15 years. It wouldn't function right. He wouldn't be able to open it. It'd be rusted. And so he opens the chamber and then he can't get the chamber to close again.

And so the prosecutor was like, holy shit, holy shit, holy shit. Like, is this whole thing going to fall apart? But, you know, they continued on. Pastor Greg Shreves testified about his relationship with both Rhonda and Mary Jane. It had always been strictly professional. There was nothing between him and Rhonda, and there were certainly no feelings between him and Mary Jane. When he gave that testimony, Mary Jane audibly gasped in court. Really? Yes. Oh. The prosecution presented one last piece of evidence that they felt was particularly damning.

It was Mary Jane's personal date book that had been on her at the time of her arrest. On the date of the shooting, she had written in, Rhonda murdered. No. And then right underneath it, hairdresser. No. The prosecution claimed that this was her to-do list. Murder Rhonda, check. Go to the hairdresser, check.

Are you serious? Yes. Well. serious? Yes. Well. Yes. Okay. The defense said that this theory was hogwash. Mary Jane hadn't been anywhere near the church that morning. She'd been getting her hair done.

Mm-hmm. And she certainly wasn't jealous of Rhonda. She loved Rhonda. And she really felt't jealous of Rhonda. She loved Rhonda. And she really felt for her in all of her struggles. That note on her calendar was simply something she'd written in after the fact.

You know, a note to remember a horrible event like someone being murdered in her church. Okay. Who writes Rhonda murdered on their calendar? No. Yeah. Yeah.

And I do keep a calendar. As you know, I love my calendar. I know you do. The defense didn't offer up any specific alternate theory. They just said that there were several other possibilities. Perhaps it was a stranger. There had been a strange man at the church the week before the shooting. He'd attended the service, taken communion, and then tried to keep the communion glass.

And the congregants had told him that wasn't how they did things there. And then he'd made some kind of offhand comment about how a church would be easy to rob. It is weird. It is weird. Yes. Maybe that stranger had come back. Or Rhonda had recently started dating again. In fact, she'd been on a dating website on the church computer that morning.

She had kind of a reputation for dating married men. So maybe this was the work of a jealous wife. Or maybe it was the police's original theory. Maybe she really had died by suicide. Who's to say? Well, me.

Yes, the defense said. Mary Jane Fonder was odd. odd she was annoying she didn't know when to shut up she was the aunt that no one wants to sit next to at the family gathering oh ouch but that didn't make her a killer yeah that's what her defense attorney said as an aunt, I take issue with them. The jury deliberated for six hours before returning their verdict. What do you think, Kristen? I can't believe they deliberated for six hours. Okay, so they talk about this on that episode. And they're like, the prosecutor started to get really nervous.

Like, what's there to deliberate for six hours? Yeah, they ultimately did return a get really nervous. Yeah. What's there to deliberate for six hours? Yeah. They ultimately did return a verdict of guilty. Okay. And on December 5th, 2008, Mary Jane Fonder was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. At her sentencing hearing, she made the following statement. Okay. I did not kill Rhonda Smith.

I thought she was a lovely girl. And I certainly wasn't jealous of this woman for any reason. I'm so sorry she's gone. But in the same respect, I will be gone too. I'm the second person in the church community to be murdered by the system. Oh. All right.

Yeah. Okay. Very dramatic. Also not true. You're not being murdered. No, you're not being murdered. Yes. Following her conviction, Mary Jane Fonder appealed.

I'm not sure on what grounds. Okay. But in February of 2010, she dropped her appeal, saying she could no longer imagine life outside of prison. She'd finally found somewhere she belonged. Really? Yes. After she'd been in prison for like about a year, she did an interview with amanda cregan from the bucks county career times and she said she'd never felt like she belonged more than she did in prison they treated her as kind of a matriarch they treated her with respect and she felt like she was doing god's work in there by teaching the women in prison the bible and she felt like it was her calling this is where she was always meant to be well this is making me

feel really weird yeah i know okay in that interview for the very first time mary jane fonder admitted that she had in fact murdered Rhonda Smith. Wow. Mm-hmm. Well, then, okay, maybe that's not bullshit. Maybe she really did feel different in prison. She said at the time of the murder, she'd been experiencing lost time and bouts of white noise that she now correlates to an adjustment in her anxiety and depression medications. She said it all came to a head one night after choir practice when she tried to talk to the

pastor and he literally ran from the room to get away from her. Yeah, yeah. Then when she'd gone to her car, there were lights on in one of the meeting rooms in the church and she just knew that they were having a birthday party for Rhonda Smith and she hadn't been invited. For the record there was no such party. Okay so she just saw that and all right. Then when she'd called the office that morning a few days later expecting to get the machine and instead Rhonda had answered it was the final straw. She'd just snapped. And before she even knew what she was doing, she'd shot and killed Rhonda Smith. Wow. Yeah.

How terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A few years after Mary Jane Fonder's conviction, police reopened a case tied to her which had remained unsolved for years. In August of 1993, Mary Jane's elderly father, Edward, had just vanished off the face of the earth. At the time of his disappearance, many people suspected Mary Jane was somehow involved as the two lived together and had a pretty rocky relationship. But both Mary Jane and her brother Edward had refused to let police search their property at the time of his disappearance.

So nothing ever came of it. They did like a group. They lived on like this big chunk of land, like 12 acres. Right. And they did like a community search of the property, but they wouldn't allow police inside the home. Turns out it was also like a hoarder house. So that was probably more the reason than anything. But yeah, for whatever reason, they were super weird about letting police in the house. They wouldn't do that.

They let them search the property, but only do like a, you know you know a cursory search and there was never any sign of him he was like an 80 year old man who couldn't walk without a cane and she said he'd just gotten up one morning and said he was going for a walk and she'd never seen him again the neighbor was adamant that she had to have done something to him because he watched him walk around and he said he was barely mobile. There was no way he just like wandered off. His wallet was found a few days later in someone's mailbox like a couple towns over. But that's all that was ever found. like a couple towns over. Okay.

But that's all that was ever found. In 2018, the Fonder property was sold to the neighbor, that same neighbor who was adamant at the time. And upon them buying it, they allowed the police to come in and search

every inch of it. They did like ground radar tests. They actually demolished the home. Wow. But any clues to the man's disappearance were long gone mary jane fonder died in prison of cardiac arrest on june 4th 2018 two weeks after the investigation into her father's disappearance was reopened. Wow. Okay, do you want to know something so weird? Yeah.

When you first started talking about this lady, I was like, there's no way this is the first time she's done this. It's probably not. I really don't think so. I mean, to be set off that easily? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. That's the story

of a sweet little church lady. That was one hell of a story. Whew. Ugh. What kind of food did she drop by? I don't know! Brandy,

these are the things we've got to know. I don't know. Here's what I do know. What do you know? That she looks like a turtle. Mitch McConnell? She looks like a little turtle.

Look at her. Look at her there looking like a little turtle. Oh, she does kind of have a turtle look to her. Yeah, she looks like a little turtle. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. But she felt like once she, oh, she did some weird stuff when she was on trial.

Like, everybody totally expected her to testify in her own defense because she just loved to talk. Like every day when she was being taken to the courtroom, like reporters would be around and she would just like always say stuff. I'm totally innocent. Shout out to my congregation. Keep the prayers coming. I miss you. I'll be back soon. There was like a real moment when the jury was deliberating for so long that like the other congregants were like, holy shit.

What if they find her not guilty and she like is at church tomorrow? Oh, my God. No. No. Not possible. No, yes. All right. Should we take some questions from the Discord? believe we should how do you get in the

discord christian oh my gosh we didn't play the patreon a single time on this episode what the hell what are we doing okay guys if you want more of us when you know you do just join our patreon at the five dollar, you get a bonus episode every month. We got like 17 of those things. That's right. My God. At the $7 level, you get... Oh, wait, I didn't say everything at the $5 level.

No. You get the bonus episode. You also get into the Discord where you can chitty chat the day away. The $7 level, you get all that plus a monthly bonus video. I'm so excited for this month's video. I'm not at all. You get all that plus a monthly bonus video. I'm so excited for this month's video.

I'm not at all. Some of you may know that I dearly loved the show 90 Day Fiance on TLC. Brandi hates it because she hates cringy TV. I do. And I have found on the YouTubes a compilation of 90 Day Fiance's cringiest moments. And so I'm going to force Brandy to watch it and react. Oh, boy. I'm so excited.

Oh, my gosh. It sounds like my nightmare, but I'm game. Let's do it. Okay. At the $10 level, you get... Oh, wait, I didn't say everything for the $7 level. Wow. Oh, God. Really underselling it here.

Also at the $7 level, you get a supreme court induction at the end of an episode you get a sticker with our lovely autographs and at the ten dollar level that's the bob moss level you get all that plus episodes a day early and ad free 10 off on merch what more do you want oh first outlaws ask would you rather have everyone be able to see your personal thoughts or be naked for the rest of your life? Oh, my. That's terrible. I hate that. Just completely naked?

Completely naked. Well, you couldn't go anywhere. Yeah. I think I'd rather them see my thoughts and I would just learn to be really good at controlling my thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, you'd have to.

Otherwise, you couldn't see anybody. Yeah. Haven Monaghan asks, if you were to open a restaurant, what kind of food would you serve? I would open a bakery. I were to open a restaurant, what kind of food would you serve? I would open a bakery. I would never open a restaurant. You seem like you'd be, you know, I would buy a cake from you. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I can't make cake, but. No, but like. If I had, if I possessed all the skills. You know what's weird? It's like I can see in my head the type of bakery. Yeah. I can picture you in. Uh-huh. A lot of whites, some teals, a very small bakery.

I have a black and white checker floor. Very nice display case. Yep. Yeah, I can see it. Yep. I would never open a restaurant. I would love to eat in one again. Yarn Yeti asked, would you rather be remembered as beautiful, smart, or kind in Dateline's episode covering your hypothetical partner?

Oh, God. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, I want to be described as lighting up a room. That's mine. You do kind of light up a room, though. Thank you. Well, it's true.

It's true. So people would, the bad thing is they'd say it. People wouldn't believe it. People wouldn't believe it. Yeah. And I'd have to come on and be like Thank you. Well, it's true. It's true. So people would, the bad thing is they'd say it. People wouldn't believe it. People wouldn't believe it. Yeah. And I'd have to come on and be like, no, guys, it was true. Really true. I don't know how I would want to be described.

Just having completely normal sized ears. Oh, shut up. You know what? You dim a room. You come into a room and the light bulbs go out. They just shatter. How's that feel? Terrible.

Yeah, that's what I'm going to tell Keith Morrison. Yeah, Keith Morrison better do my fucking episode. Oh, you don't get to decide. I'm deciding. If I get fucking Josh Mankiewicz. He seems like a very nice guy on Twitter. Yes, I agree that he seems very nice. He's not who I would choose to cover my murder.

This just in. Josh Mankiewicz is the only one available. And he wasn't prepared to come into work today, so his hair is a mess. Like, real rumpled. He always looks like he wasn't prepared to come into work today. Sorry, that's what you get for feeling so entitled to Keith Morrison. So suck on that. Bidets for Brandy wants to know,

Kristen, how did you get into running? I love going on walks and want to love running, but running is hard. Okay, okay. Here's how I got into it. My dad has always been a runner. My aunt has always been a runner. Kyla's always been a runner.

So it's in the jeans. And I'm wearing jeans. Do you run in jeans? I know. Can you imagine? Wouldn't you just start a fire in your crotch? I, well, I take medication for that. One time I saw a guy running on a treadmill in jeans and I could not stop staring.

The friction would just be. It seems terrible. Yeah. No. So I started running just with family. Yeah. And that's OK. Here's the thing.

People who've been running for a long time forget what it's like to start running. And so they talk about like, oh, you can get like a runner's high and I always feel so good. I'm so glad. No. oh you can get like a runner's high and I always feel so good after I'm so glad blah blah blah. No. When you're first starting out running it's going to suck for months and all you can do is like I remember for the longest time I was like okay I want to get to three miles I want to get to three miles and I can still remember the playlist I had that I could run to that was

exactly three miles long and oh my god by the time I got to Rihanna breaking dishes, it was like, oh my God, come on. It felt like torture. So yeah, don't listen to people who've been running for a long time because for a long time, it's just going to suck. And eventually you're going to build up your stamina and eventually you will enjoy it. Okay.

There you go. I think I inspired a lot of people today. I think you did. My God. Bad Bad Real Bad asks, what's your favorite cold weather meal? I know what yours is. What is it?

Probably a real meaty chili. Am I right? I do like a meaty chili. It's not what I was going to say. What were you going to say? Grilled cheese and tomato soup. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like a nostalgic thing, and it's delicious.

Nostalgic. Listen to her. You dip the grilled cheese in the soup. Hey, hot tip, guys. I don't know if you knew this. This is a unique thing. This is the third episode in a row where I've given the most basic food eating tip. Okay, yeah.

Your tips have literally been put the food in your mouth. Hey, hot tip. Something I don't think you thought about with food. What I do, I get the fork out, stab it, put it in my mouth, chew it right up, swallow it down. That's what I do. And oh, excellent results. That is the way to do it. You have a favorite cold weather meal, Kristen?

This is a sensitive subject, Brandi. Because you love soup and Norman hates soup? How did you know? I was going to say that. Yes, I love soups so much. Norman fucking hates soups. There is a 30 Rock joke where, did you ever watch 30 Rock? You didn't, right?

No, not regularly. Okay, well, there's just this, there's this joke where Kenneth and Tracy are like, you know, it seems like they're a married couple. And Kenneth was like, you know, and tomorrow I thought maybe we could go to the store and then maybe later we could have the rest of that soup I made yesterday. And Tracy's like, I don't want to do any of those things. And like that, that is Norman's life. Anyway, long story short, for Christmas, Kyle asked me what I wanted and I told her what I wanted. And it was a big fucking like this thing is huge. You would not believe this.

It's a it's a stock pot. And I I sent her a link online. This thing is the biggest thing I've ever seen. And I am thrilled with it. So excited. Norman is not. So this is actually a very painful question for me to answer. It's soup.

It's tough when you have a partner who doesn't support you. Hell of cats in this bitch. Says, my husband and I started a podcast and would love to hear any advice you have, especially when it comes to sound and what equipment might work best. He keeps making me do crazy

things like record under a blanket to stifle some of the air noise. Norman has been the one who's been really good about. Yeah. Currently. So we now record in a sex dungeon. Yes. It's got black foam and blankets all over the wall.

Yes. And all he talks about is, can I get you a bigger rug in here? And it's like, fine. Do what you want to do. It's funny because I feel like you and I were never the ones who were like, our audio quality needs to change. But Norman and other people definitely were. Like, I remember when we used to record in my office and he kept being like, we need to, we need to move this. And I was like, whatever. Yeah. Okay. The other day I went back and listened to an old episode. It was the kept being like we need to we need to move this oh yeah and i was like whatever yeah okay the other day i went back and listened to an old episode it was the one we recorded for 2020 because people

kept saying and we sounded so stupid being like 2020 is our year yay yeah i put that on audio quality sounds so different yeah so anyway i mean we're not under a blanket right now but we're surrounded by yeah so we're surrounded by um these hanging really heavy audio blankets that you can buy online yeah i feel like we we'd be better at giving general podcasting advice yes like keep doing it people will eventually listen can't stop won, won't stop. That's right. Yeah. Just keep going. Yeah.

You know, be like Dory. Just keep swimming. Oh, gosh. We just watched Finding Nemo this weekend. I was going to say, I'm an adult. I'm an adult. Well, I have a seven-year-old that lives in my house. Oh, you were watching kid stuff way before he came along.

That sounds super fucking creepy. Sorry. Sorry that you're so creepy. Okay, I saw this earlier. I have to ask this because this is funny. Sarad wants to know, Kristen, did you at any part of your life or do you have relatives from Oklahoma?

My mom is from there and we listen to the pod together and she swears you talk just like her cousins. Are you this person's mom's long lost cousin? That would be hilarious. I don't think I am. No.

No connection to Oklahoma. But I mean, I grew up in freaking Kansas. It's not that different. By the way, congratulations to your mom for her really hot sounding cousins. Am I right?

You went. That's basically what this person is saying. I think that's exactly what she's saying. Yeah. I mean, I've kind of lost the question now, but I believe it said my mom has super hot cousins and they sound just like you. That's exactly what it said. Mm hmm. OK. it said. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Brandy? Mm-hmm? I am sorry that I have to do this. I know. Sarah Parker wants to know, Kristen, who's going to make the team? Okay, I saw this question. I don't know what this means. Brandy?

What? Sarah Parker is referring to, and I'm familiar with it, she is referring to the fantastic show Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders Making the Team, which I am obsessed with, and other people think I should be embarrassed by my obsession, but I am not. I am, this is not a lie, I am in not one but two private Facebook groups for the show. Christian! That is like the hottest reveal ever. I can't believe that.

Do you mind if I pull up the list of rookies and tell them where? Please do it. Please do it. Well, I have this platform. I should tell you all that this season is especially lame. They did it from a bubble anyway. The whole world is happening inside a bubble these days, Kristen. I'm saying they probably shouldn't have even bothered.

Oh, I gotcha. I gotcha. But, you know. But then where would you be? I would be devastated. But, you know. But then where would you be? I would be devastated. Okay, Brandy. Are you ready? I am.

I can tell you care a lot about this issue. I'm very invested in it. How many Facebook groups are you in for this? Zero. Okay. Well, you don't quite have the passion that I'm looking for for the squad. You know, oh, God. I get so passionate

about this. Okay, first of all, first of all, I just want to say that I think this rookie class is exceptional, all right? Okay. So as I make my choices, I don't want to offend anyone because they're all terrific dancers. If I were picking the Kristen squad, I would choose Armani for sure. Jada for sure. Brandy, do not laugh. These are not laughing matters. Also, big fan of Claire W. Everyone is, though.

She wore kind of a potato sack dress for her show group audition. Still, such a good dancer. And a potato sack and everything. People ignored the potato sack dress for her show group audition. Still, such a good dancer. And a potato sack and everything. People ignored the potato sack. Okay. Okay, who else would I choose? Who else would I choose? You know what?

Big fan of Mackenzie. Big fan of Cassie. All right. Okay. Thank you. Glad to hear it. You don't seem as interested as you should be in the show. I've got other opinions and I am holding them back.

Fucking Dong outlines in here trolling me. Well, what? Is he asking you about Dallas Cowboys? He said, are either of you ladies a fan of Fireball? I have to say, it's delicious. Brandi, what's wrong with Fireball? Fireball resulted in me vomiting in my front yard as a grown-ass woman. Well, you know, we've all been 23, Brandy.

I was 30. It's fine. It's all fine. And by the way, dong outline is David. So he knows this. Who dumb knit? You know what? Come at me with your perfect face shape.

What are you talking about? What are you talking about? She said, just got my haircut. Am I too late? What's your favorite cut for an oval face? An oval face is the perfect face shape and you can wear any fucking haircut you want. Wow.

You're the rudest hairstylist this side of the Mississippi. What's the hardest face shape? There's a couple. Triangle is hard because it's wide at the bottom and so you want to you have to offset that really strong jaw you want to soften that heart shaped can be hard because a heart-shaped face can make someone look heavier than they are okay so you gotta complement it perfectly by saying things like it's a really nice face.

Great. I love your heart-shaped face. Yes. My face is... You have an oval. Stop doing that chin thing. You look like your dad when you do that. Oh, God.

No. You look just like your dad. Oh, God. You guys, DP and Sheree Ray are living at the Casa de Caruso. And I can't handle any more comparisons to my dad. Norman the other day said I was Daryl in a wig. Bidets for Brandy wants to know, thoughts on Kim and Kanye getting divorced? It's probably about time.

I think she did her best. Yeah. This was probably a joke question, but I'm going to be serious. I think Kim probably really tried hard. Yeah. And I will cover it for the podcast when it inevitably happens. Please do. Please do.

Ooh. I feel like this is the perfect question to end this on. Hmm. Jury Magnet asks. Jury Magnet? Mm-hmm. I feel like this is the perfect question to end this on jury magnet asks jury magnet? okay when getting dressed do you do sock sock shoe shoe or sock shoe sock shoe

this is a weird question why is this a weird question. Why is this a weird question? No one. I repeat, no one. No one knows sock shoe, sock shoe? Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. You put the socks on first and then you add the shoes. And if you're doing sock shoe, sock shoe. What other skeletons are you hiding in jane fonder i bet she did sock shoe sock shoe what do you think should we do supreme court inductions yeah sorry i'm reading all kinds of doom scrolling over there doom Doom scrolling? What are you talking about? That's where you read like the really low points of the news. Oh, I've never heard that before. In my Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders making the team Facebook groups, we don't talk like that.

I have honestly thought, I have honestly thought like, what if I did a podcast about Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders making the team? The problem would be literally no one would listen to that you're right no one would no I mean there's obviously people who are passionate about it Kristen you're in two Facebook groups would you watch Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders making the team and would you then join me in creating a second podcast. I would probably like it. I like cheerleading.

I like dancing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'd probably enjoy it. Exactly. Do you enjoy a good makeover? Of course I do. You enjoy... Okay, I've just literally never come across this show.

Well, you have to be looking for it. It's on CMT. It's the number one's on CMT. It's the number one show on CMT. Oh, is it? Yeah, it sure is. You know what? I can sense when no one else is interested. Alright, this week

we are reading your names and your favorite cookies. Angela. Chocolate Chip. Amanda Bowley. Oatmeal scotchies. Pixie. Warm sugar cookies. Kate Hodges. Peanut butter oatmeal chocolate chip cookie. That almost seems like cheating. Sounds delicious. Jodi Bargery. Potato chip butterscotch cookies. Arianne Melhoff. Frosted orange doodle. Kenya Millette. Tagalongs.

Kate Douglas. Double stuffed Oreos. It's too much stuff. Tanya Waringa. Chocolate chip using my grandma's secret recipe. Rebecca Murray. Frozen thin mints. Shauna Mills.

Jaffa cake. JP. Ginger snaps. Quigs. Chocolate chip. Katie Hamilton. Homemade chocolate chip. Allison Waller. Tagalongs. Margaret. Triple ginger. Ben Provence. Chocolate chip. Brooke Siskey. Warm snickerdoodle Welcome to the Supreme Court Thank you guys for all of your support We appreciate it so much If you're looking for other ways to support us

Please find us on social media We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit Please subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen And head on over to Apple Podcasts Leave us a rating, leave us a review And then be sure to join us next week When we'll be experts on two whole new podcasts. Oh, I'm sorry.

I was so out of it. You really think about that? I'm thinking we got to start it. Brandi, there are so many seasons. We could start this up today. We could be rolling. Some of the earlier seasons are a little rough, I will tell you.

There's a lot of body shaming we could discuss. I think it'd be a really popular thing. Oh, no. You know, ten people want this podcast to happen. Okay. And you're really shitting on their dreams and my dreams. Oh, you're right. You're telling me this can't happen in the state of Missouri,

so I need to go to Iowa to do this. That's right. That's where you are right now. Anyway, we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from Wikipedia, St. Louis Public Radio, and Douglas Linder's article, Before Brown, Charles H. Houston, and the Gaines case. I got my info from an episode of Snapped, an episode of Dateline, articles for the Philadelphia Inquirer and the Morning Call, as well as Wikipedia and Murderpedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.