Let's Go To Court! - 158: Rosa Parks & a Serial Killer

Episode Date: January 27, 2021

We all think we know the story of Rosa Parks. She was an old, tired woman who got on a bus in segregated Montgomery, Alabama. When the white bus driver asked her to give up her seat to a white passenger, Rosa refused. She was tired! Her feet hurt! For refusing to move, Rosa Parks was arrested. Then, oopsies, she became a civil rights icon! … well, that’s not quite how it went down. Rosa Parks wasn’t that old. Her feet didn’t hurt. When she refused to give up her seat, she knew exactly what she was doing. She’d been a take-no-shit activist her entire life.  Then Brandi tells us about a serial killer. When Alice Williams showed up at 86-year-old Norma Davis’ house and shouted her name, Norma didn’t respond. Alice became concerned. So she cautiously made her way through Norma’s home. That’s how Alice discovered that Norma had been brutally murdered. A knife stuck out of Norma’s neck. Another stuck out of her chest. About a week later, another woman in Norma’s gated community was murdered.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: An episode of the show “The Origin of Everything,” titled “Is the Rosa Parks Story True?” A Ted Talk titled “The real story of Rosa Parks -- and why we need to confront myths about black history” by professor  David Ikard “Rosa Parks,” entry on Wikipedia “Edgar Nixon,” entry on Wikipedia “Recy Taylor,” entry on Wikipedia “Browder v. Gayle,” entry on Wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Dana Sue Gray” episode Diabolical Women  “Addicted to Luxury: The Pampered Killer” by Katherine Ramsland, The Crime Library “Justice Story: Serial killer Dana Sue Gray offed elderly women so she could shop with their credit cards” by Mara Bovsun, New York Daily News “Dana Sue Gray” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Rosa Parks. And I'll be talking about a serial killer.

Ooh. Kind of opposite ends of the spectrum. Ooh, there, huh? It's all about balance, Kristen. And that's what we did intentionally today with this episode. Lots to discuss. What? Well, okay.

Now, we're going to have to have a private conversation right here. But mine get cut. But last week, we talked about a teacher we had that in retrospect. Let's talk about it. Okay. Let's. I am ready. I am all in.

Okay. Okay. We talked about a teacher because of your case last week. So we talked about the cool teachers when we were in high school. And then the next day. Yeah. So the thing we talked about was teachers we thought were cool in high school that in retrospect, we realize now as adults, we're not cool at all. We're kind of creepy.

Okay. So then the next day, I was thinking about that, thinking about that teacher whose name we bleeped on the episode. And I decided to do a little Googling. Yep. Typical Brandy. See what he's up to these days. And I found out that in 2017, he had his teaching license revoked. Brandy, you don't know how hard I tried to find out.

Same. Same. So what I know is that he willingly surrendered it because they would have revoked it. Yes, because he had done something that would have led to him losing his teaching license. Yes. And that he had to agree to never apply for it again. Yes. But what he did also did not result in criminal charges.

That was one of the specifications. What do you think it was? I don't know. I don't know. I don't either. That's the thing is like, I really hope he's not like super, super creepy, but at the same time,

I mean, losing your teaching license. Yeah. And having to say like, I will never apply for a teaching license again. Yeah. That's pretty extreme. Yeah.

Anyways. So that was kind of a wild. Also, also right off the top, you know what we need to do? What? We need to apologize to your mother. I know! My poor mom.

So, tell them what we talked about on the Patreon episode. So, on the bonus episode, we talked about this creepy fucking thing my mom said to my baby. So, my mom was feeding London, and London, London like started to cough a little bit on her milk. And my mom goes, oh, no, there's bones in there. And I was like, what did you just say to my baby? So we brought that up on the bonus episode. Yeah, you asked me and you said, I've never heard that. I said, I'd never heard of it.

And we were like, hey, hey, patrons. Hey, hey, hey, let us know. If you've heard this crazy saying. Apparently the whole world has heard it. We're the only people. We literally heard. So first off, it was the Southerners. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, it's a Southern thing. Which makes sense because my mom and her mom and her grandma are all from the South. So great. Story checks out. Then the and her grandma are all from the South. So great. Story checks out. Then the Australians came for us. Then the Canadians. Yeah. Then a lady on Facebook, I think was talking about her Swedish grandma. Literally everyone says it all the time, except for us. Mom, I do apologize. Here's the thing that I would like to point out, though. apologize. Here's the thing that I would like to point out, though. I have obviously

known my mother my entire life. And I have never heard her use that phrase before. Wait. This is a shitty apology, Brady. You just gotta apologize. I'm sorry, Mom. I'm sorry. It turns out, no. It turns

out it is still creepy. I think it's still creepy. I know it's not creepy. But it turns out it is still creepy. I think it's still creepy. I know it's not creepy. But it turns out it is a thing people say. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Alright. Alright, well, let's see. We've covered our teacher, our high school teacher who lost his license. We apologize

to your mother. Do you have anything else on the agenda? Oh, the inauguration was today. Woo! Very exciting times. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Woo.

It was kind of funny to see what. Okay. What? Did you think something was going to happen? Like, were you worried that something would. Yeah, I was worried. Of course. Me too.

Yeah, I was super worried. Yes. And then it was just like pleasant speeches it was just like refreshing yeah and i feel really good right now yes yeah so i told you i woke up at 4 45 this morning which is not on brand not on brand at all but sometimes the anxiety does get the best of me yeah i was i was kind of nervous kind of hyped up but yeah yeah like how nice yeah a pleasant speech really nice yes totally different than the carnage of 2016 it was funny because like you know my parents are living with us right now

yeah and you know so the four of us were all sitting and watching this thing and um it's really nice for you to take in your homeless parents oh shut up okay now i have to explain that everybody my parents sold their house they decided they were going to live in in their rv while they built their house. Somebody sideswiped their RV. It got wrecked. Blah, blah, blah. So my dad started saying that he was homeless. And my sister was like, hey, dad. You can't say that.

Hey, dad, that's really offensive. Because there are people who actually don't have a home. You're not one of them. You're just fine. Yeah, and so now Brandy, like a good friend, knows that my dad has gotten in trouble for that, and she brings it up constantly. I mean, ideally to his face.

Yes, yes. Yeah, it's a shame he's not here right now. Anyway. Anyway, that was a tangent from a tangent. Oh, God. Again, it's not even like that great of a story, but it was just like, oh, well, here it goes. No, we were just watching the speeches and like it was just nice to hear kind of, I mean, what a few years ago I would have called like a boring political speech. But just a speech of like, hey, you know, you didn't vote for me.

That's OK. I'm going to try to be the president for all the people, you know, blah, blah, blah. hey, you know, you didn't vote for me. That's okay. I'm going to try to be the president for all the people, you know, blah, blah, blah. And we were talking about how at Trump's inauguration, it was like he was talking about America like it was just like a total bag of dicks. Yeah. Total shit fest.

And one of my favorite stories is that apparently George W. Bush was sitting next to Hillary Clinton. And after that speech, he turned to her and he goes, well, that was some weird shit. I hope that's true. I mean, I'm pretty sure that's true. If it's not, we'll cut it. I love it. Anyway. What else you got on our agenda? We got some new stuff up over on our Patreon page.

Oh, yeah? What do we got, Brianna? We on our Patreon page. Oh, yeah? What do we got, Brianna? We got a bonus episode. We sure do. Bonus episode. Full length. That's right. As opposed to like, you guys get 10 minutes this month.

No, I think it's kind of, our bonus episodes are like a. They're beefy boys. They are. Yeah, that's a full length episode. Yeah, you're right. You know, some. Yeah. A lesser podcast might not give this to you, but we give you the full deal.

The full Monty? The full salami? Brandy. Don't make promises we can't keep. We give you a full salami of that real questionable salami that Norm had to pull off of his sandwich. And we have our video up of Brandy. It was the best. Was it?

Yes. You guys, I forced Brandy to watch a cringe compilation from 90 Day Fiance, one of my favorite programs. Programs. And Brandy hated every minute of it. She did. And we filmed it in my basement, which had kind of a torture dungeon vibe. It did. Yeah, Kristen lured me to her house.

which had kind of a torture dungeon vibe. Yeah, Kristen lured me to it. But if you want to check all that out, at the $5 level, you get those full-length meaty bonus episodes. Extra meaty, is what I like to say. And you get into the Discord, which contains no meat. And then at the $7 level, you get all that plus those bonus videos and a card with our autographs. Sticker?

Don't forget the sticker. Don't forget the sticker. Damn it. And then you get inducted at the end of the podcast. Woo! And then at the $10 level, you get all that, plus ad-free episodes a day early. And you get them a day early. Sorry, I was saying all the things.

No, good. Say it. Say it twice. You want to hit it again? Also, 10% off on merch. Woo! Woo! Also, also. Hot on merch. Woo! Woo! Also, also.

Hot new merch. I don't mean to excite you. Hot. We've got hoodies. It's hot. We have juvenile Bigfoot hoodies. They are hot. They are hot because they are hoodies and they are hot because you will look dead sexy in them.

Yeah. You don't need lingerie when you've got one of our hoodies. They hit all the notes. One thing, and I know this is going to sound car salesman-like, but here you go. I did a limited time order on this. I didn't order a lot. Limited run! So you better, you know, order a hundred of them.

Limited edition hoodies. You know, I guess they are in a way. That's not a good salesperson, is it? Yeah, you know, I guess when you really think about it, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.

Anyway, so check those out. Yeah. Why don't you? Why don't you? Oh, because you hate Brandy? That's fine. Wow. All right.

All right. Are we ready to get down to it? Tell us about Rosa Parks. All right. Shout we ready to get down to it? Tell us about Rosa Parks. All right. Shout outs to, first of all, an episode of the show The Origin of Everything titled Is the Rosa Parks Story True? Oh. And a TED Talk titled The Real Story of Rosa Parks and Why We Need to Confront Myths About Black History by Professor David Akard. Are you going to tell me that the story I know about Rosa Parks is not the real story?

She was actually a white woman. Lived in Boston, actually. In the 1700s. I think that's just a different Rosa Parks. Also, the biggest of shout outs to Wikipedia. Hugely helpful. Hugely, huh? Hugely. Bigly. Bigly. Enely helpful. Hugely, huh? Hugely.

Bigly. Bigly. Enormously. Hey, Brandy. Yeah? I know what you're thinking, Brandy. You're thinking, Rosa Parks. I know all about Rosa Parks.

Our elementary school had a play about her every year. You sure did. Put on by the one black teacher. Yeah. Yeah. We went to school and shot the guy. We sure did. Put on by the one black teacher. Yeah. Yeah, we went to school in Johnson County. We sure did. Can't tell me anything new. I know

all the facts. Old lady. Tired. Wouldn't give up her bus seat for a white person. And then she, oopsies, oh, what's this? Stumbled into civil rights. That's right. Yep, pretty much sums it up. A frail, sweet old lady fell bass-ackwards into becoming a civil rights icon.

Okay. Well, listen, you dumb hoe. That's almost entirely incorrect. Oh, no. But I saw a play about it. We sure did. But I saw a play about it. We sure did.

So you buckle up, Buttercup, because we're about to go on a wild ride. And everyone can sit wherever they want on the wild ride, because this is the story of Rosa Parks. Guys, Kristen just shot my eye out with a confetti can. Okay, for real. What do you remember about Rosa Parks? Yeah, that. Yeah, she was tired. So she was sitting in the front and they were like, hey, get your ass to the back.

And she was like, no, my feet hurt. And then it was like, you know, big civil rights pioneer. Yeah, oopsies, civil rights. Men make a great cereal. Oopsies, civil rights. Exactly. Men make a great cereal. Oopsies, civil rights. Okay, if you had to guess how old she was. Oh, gosh, 57. Okay, great. Picture it.

1913, Tuskegee, Alabama. The heroine of our story is Rosa McCauley. And she was born to a teacher and a carpenter, and life wasn't easy. She was really small, and she got sick a lot, and when she was young, her parents separated, and she and her mom moved to a farm just outside Montgomery, Alabama, and that's where Rosa and her brother and her mom and her maternal grandparents all lived together. where Rosa and her brother and her mom and her maternal grandparents all lived together. These were the days of Jim Crow, and there was racism on racism on racism. So Rosa grew up in an exceptionally racist time, but she also grew up with a powerful lesson taught to her by her

grandfather. And that was, you don't have to take shit from anybody. Ooh, that is a good lesson. Her grandfather had a gun, and everyone in town knew that if you messed with his family, it would not end well for you. All right, then. In fact, here's a true story. who were super courageous, covered their faces in old bed sheets, and called themselves really cool names like Grand Wizard Crunchwrap Supreme and Imperial Nacho Fries. And then they marched down the street in front of Rosa's family's home. And Rosa's grandpa stood in the front door of his house with his shotgun staring down the KKK.

Oh my gosh. Yes. He was fully prepared to go to battle with these racist shitheads. Wow. If they tried to harm his family. Wow. So I'm saying this all because I think one of the things that we all think about Rosa is like, oh, this nonviolent, oh, really meek.

That really wasn't her upbringing. Yeah. Like, you know, she didn't grow up in a violent family but they weren't non-violent either you know they were totally willing to defend themselves if need be as a child she got bullied a lot by the white kids in her neighborhood and even though she was small she fought back physically that's just the way she was as a young child she attended rural schools but when she was 11 she began attending the industrial school for girls which was like this school for black girls that was set up by northern liberal white ladies so at this school the students got a bit of

vocational education and domestic skills and they also got like a sprinkling of academic education and it really doesn't sound that progressive at all um but get a load of this the curriculum taught the girls that racism is bad wow uh-oh cutting edge uh-oh not okay not okay pissed off the local white folks real bad so So they set fire to the school. Of course they did. Twice. Oh. Yep. But despite the best efforts of crusty racist buttholes,

Rosa walked away from that educational experience with a greater appreciation for her own self-worth. She said, What I learned best was that I was a person with dignity and self-respect, and I should not set my sights lower than anybody else just because I was black. Wow. So, with that very important lesson in her head, she enrolled in Alabama State Teachers College for Negroes. But while she was there, her grandma got really sick, her mom got sick. So she had to drop out of school and take care of her family.

So there she was. This young woman who'd been raised not to take shit from anybody. Who had a strong sense of her own self-worth. And that's when she met Raymond Parks. Ooh. Ooh. What kind of love song can we sing right now? The love boat. Let me tell you, Raymond Parks, total stud.

Yeah. He was a barber. He was a proud member of the NAACP. And he was not threatened by an educated woman. Excellent. Mm-hmm. So after they got married in 1932, Raymond encouraged Rosa to get her high school diploma. So that was a crazy radical idea. At that point, less than 7% of black Americans

had a high school diploma. Wow. So Raymond and Rosa were an activist love story. They were both super passionate about civil rights, doing their thing. But for a while, Raymond was the one who had the established role in the Montgomery chapter of the NAACP. But then Rosa got involved. Here's how it happened. And buckle up because it super sucks. Click. So the male leadership of the NAACP was like, hey, oh, shit. We need somebody to take notes. Quick, fetch a lady. This here's woman's work. Oh, no.

Here's a fun story. The leader of that branch was a man named Edgar Nixon. And Edgar did a ton of great things in his life, really, really great things. Nixon. And Edgar did a ton of great things in his life. Really, really great things. But he also believed that, quote, women don't need to be nowhere but in the kitchen. Oof. Yep.

Oof. And when Rosa heard that sexist bullshit, she said, well, what about me? No. And he said, I need a secretary, and you're a good one. Oh, no. Yeah.

At this point, I'd like to pause and have a moment of groan for all the people out there who are dealing with the shabam, shabam, double whammy of racism and sexism. Shabam, shabam. You know, the word, I think, is intersectionality. But for some reason, even though the definition's kind of in that word, I always forget what that means. I think we've got to change it to shabam, shabam, double whammy. Yeah. Uh-huh. Sure thing.

I bet she's going to take right off, Kristen. I think it will. Anyway, sounds like a terrible time. Yeah. To have the shabam shabam. Right, Brandi? Go ahead and say it. Say it.

Let it catch on. Shabam shabam. You ever thought about what it'd be like to have the shabam shabam? Stop it. I mean, it sounds like a menu item at IHOP. Or Denny's. More like Denny's. Yeah.

Grand Slam shabam shabam. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like after you'd eat it, you'd feel terrible about yourself. But in the moment. You'd love in every minute of it. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Well, maybe this won't take off. I'll take the Shabam, Shabam with sausage. So in 1943, Rosa Parks became the secretary of the NAACP because, as she later put it, I was the only woman there and they needed a secretary and I was too timid to say no. Wow. But Rosa did a lot in her role. As secretary of the Montgomery chapter of the NAACP, she traveled all over Alabama investigating and documenting everything from hate crimes to police brutality to rape to unsolved murders. I mean, she was doing a ton of really, really important work. And that's how she came across a terrible story about a black woman in Abbeville, Alabama, which I'm probably not pronouncing correctly.

The woman's name was Recy Taylor, and this is what happened to her. Recy was walking home from church with her friend and her friend's son when a car pulled up beside them, and in that car were six white men. One of them drew a gun and ordered Recy to get in the car. She obviously complied, and they began to drive. As they drove, she begged for her life. She told them she had a husband and an infant at home. Oh, my gosh. But they didn't give a shit.

They drove her into the woods, and the six white men gang-raped her. Oh, no. Meanwhile, Re risi's friend who had been walking with her immediately went to the police and she told them that the driver of the car was a man named hugo wilson oh she recognized him yeah i believe so and you know this honestly could be its own episode so i'm just trying to give like the barest of details um also after after these men raped her they blindfolded her and just left her somewhere. And she was discovered, I believe, by her husband and her dad. Oh, my God.

And they actually saw the car drive away. So there were actually quite a few witnesses, eyewitnesses to this crime. So police talked to Hugo. And guess what this dipshit said? He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, I drove the car. Yeah, I picked up that woman, carried her to the spot. And the other dudes all raped her. Wow.

Right. Right. I mean, he obviously was lying. He raped her, too. But like, I mean, that's all's all you need really to move forward with that investigation. So police had a lot to go on.

But what did they do with that information? Nothing. Of course nothing. They didn't question any of the other men. But Recy refused to stay silent. She spoke up. She told people what those men had done to her, which is just incredible. Yeah.

The black community of Abbeville rallied around her, and when it became clear that the police weren't going to do anything at all in response to this crime, they became enraged. People talked and they talked and they talked. People talked and they talked and they talked. How could it be that a young mother walking home from church could be gang raped and nothing come of it? At some point, the NAACP found out about this case, and Rosa Parks went down to Abbeville to meet with Recy and her husband. They met in a secluded cabin, and Recy told Rosa everything that had happened to her. And Rosa was incensed. She went back to Montgomery, and she told the NAACP, we have to do something about this.

By this point, Rosa Parks was very well connected. She was an activist. She was an organizer. She had a mind for politics. She knew how to rally people around a cause. And that's exactly what she did. She reached out to prominent black activists and women's organizations and labor unions. And she formed the Committee for Equal Justice for the Rights of Mrs. Recy Taylor. Wow.

Which they later shortened to Committee for Equal Justice for obvious reasons. But, you know, its members included Langston Hughes, W.E.B. Du Bois. Wow. Mary Church Terrell, who was super cool and co-founded the NAACP and was one of the first black women to go to college and helped found the National Association of Colored Women. And I'd love to tell you more, but there's no time. There's never any time. I'm so excited. I'm so scared. Okay. Do you remember a couple episodes back, and I was talking about M Street High School where

Charles Houston, Hamilton, yeah, where Charles Hamilton Houston went to high school, like the first black high school? Yeah. The first black high school. Yeah. She taught there for a while. Wow. I can't tell you more. We don't have the time. Rosa Parks' involvement brought nationwide attention to this case. And soon the Committee for Equal Justice formed 18 chapters across the United States. Wow. Yes. She was good at her job. chapters across the United States. Wow. Yes, she was good at her job. The Chicago Defender called it, quote, the strongest campaign for equal justice to be seen in a decade. Wow. Like not since the Scottsboro Boys case, which she had also worked on, had people paid this much attention to a case. It was truly incredible. All these people banded together to help Recy Taylor get some justice.

But when a grand jury hearing finally did take place, it was in front of an all-white, all-male jury. And they deliberated for five minutes. Wow. And they dismissed the case. Yeah. And that's the end of the story. Recy Taylor was raped by six white men, and those men were never held accountable for their crimes. It was a horrible injustice, but it also marked a turning point in the civil rights movement. This case spoke to black women. It brought activists from all over the nation together, and it made Rosa Parks even stronger, and it made her even more determined. Things had to change, and she would

fight tirelessly for that change. The same year that Recy Taylor's rapists escaped punishment, Rosa got a job at Maxwell Air Force Base. And it was like a wild experience because Rosa had spent all her life in segregated Jim Crow Alabama. But since the Air Force Base was federal property, there was no racial segregation. For Rosa, it was like walking into

the Twilight Zone, but a very good Twilight Zone that makes you think, can the whole world be the Twilight Zone? That's what it said in her memoir. Did it? No. So she didn't work there for very long, but she said it opened her eyes up to how things could be.

Years passed. Rosa and Raymond continued working hard for the NAACP, and they became members of the League of Women Voters. And Rosa got even more involved in activism. She began working for a couple of white civil rights activists, and they sponsored her attendance at a workers' rights education center. She learned new strategies for organizing and new strategies for bringing about equality. which was good because to be frank all the racism and all the sexism and all the other isms were really starting to make her shit itch her shit itch i just heard that phrase the other day i love it it's when you're annoyed with someone right you know what my grandma says what you

make my ass tired when you're annoyed with someone hmm i prefer shit itch you make my ass tired. What? When you're annoyed with someone. Hmm. I prefer shit itch. You make my shit itch. What do you prefer? Do you have, oh, oh, don't act all, you're too good for either one, aren't you? I am. I am.

You want to keep your ass out of it. Mm-hmm. No. I sure do. I just want everybody to have a good time. Hmm. You know we got a football game coming up next week. Woo, do we?

Woo. It's actually this week, Kristen. It's on Sunday. At 530. It's close. 545. Who are we playing? Well, we just played the Browns.

We sure did. We're not going to play them again. That's correct. The Chiefs are playing the... other team. I have no idea. Who are they playing? Buffalo Bills. Best of luck

to them both. I tip my hat to all of them. So, you know, her shit's itchy is what I'm saying. You've got a real burning and itching situation. Because, you know, there's the big horrible. And the cure was not ointment.

Right. The cure was the end of racism. That's right. And sexism. Yes. Shabam, shabam. Double whammy. Shabam, shabam.

The double whammy of sexism and racism. Duh. So, you know, there's the big horrible stuff like lynchings and all that stuff. But then there was the everyday bullshit. Steamy, creamy bullshit. Brandy, can't you see I'm doing something serious here? Oh, I'm sorry. Like, for example, the Montgomery, Alabama buses.

Uh-huh. Okay. So this was no accident. No. It was planned the whole time. The whole time? The whole time? We have to go.

I have to leave now. We have to go. Are you going to tell them what you're quoting? No, they know. They do know. People know. Okay. Ever since 1900, the city buses had been segregated by race.

White people in the front, black people in the back. It was unfair. It was humiliating. Oftentimes, black people would have to move or stand so that white passengers could sit. And, I mean, I probably don't need to say this, but obviously everyone was paying the same amount for bus fare. Yeah. There was no discounts because you were being treated like shit.

And that's what we call a hot load of dookie. And you know, when you see a hot load of dookie, you got to do something. Uh-huh. And so, okay, so this whole time. Mm-hmm. The whole time. The whole whole time i've pictured her with like a bag of groceries uh-huh getting on that bus sitting down uh-huh and then someone is like and she's like oh oh my feeble and my feet hurt oh yeah uhhuh. Been on them all day doing old lady things.

Uh-huh. Yep. And then, you know, some doucher comes up and is like, get to the back of the bus. Mm-hmm. She's like, no, my groceries. Uh-huh. Yeah. And she had the French baguette coming out. Yeah, stick it out the top.

As all grocery bags do. All fake grocery bags have that. Yeah. You're telling me that's not how it happened at all? No. Afraid not. Oh, my gosh. Afraid she was a true activist to her that. Yeah. You're telling me that's not how it happened at all? No. Afraid not. Oh my gosh. Afraid she was

a true activist to her core. I'm afraid this was no accident. So Rosa hated the segregation on buses so much that she actually tried to avoid taking the bus if she could. But she really started avoiding it after one particularly awful bus ride in 1943.

Here's what happened. She had her bag of groceries. Right. So she gets on the bus, pays her fare, and the bus driver was a man named James F. Blake. And after James took her money, she went to go sit down. And he's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, she went to go sit down. And he's like, oh, mm-mm, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, mm-mm, gotta follow the rules.

And the rules are, you came up here and you paid your fare, and now you need to get off the bus. And go in the rear entrance? Yeah, uh-huh. And re- yeah. Oh, for fuck's sake. So, then he did, like, this dumb little smirk and was like, mm, I'm so powerful. Did he? Yeah

So you know Rose is like oh Jesus Christ She probably didn't say that because she was very religious. She said Jesus Christ superstar And she said who in the hell do you think you are With a flourish She was wearing a

Technicolor Dreamcoat at the time So she's annoyed but she's like alright whatever man. So she gets Yeah. She was wearing a Technicolor Dreamcoat at the time. So she's annoyed, but she's like, all right, whatever, man. So she gets off the bus and goes around to the back. And before she could get on. He drove away. Yeah. Motherfucker.

And of course it was raining. I don't need to tell you it was raining, right? Yeah, I got that. And her groceries are on the ground now in a puddle. Yeah. So this guy's a douche. Yeah. Yeah. Well well and that's theft yeah i mean it is it is theft it's also i mean number one being a huge douche yeah number two

being a thieving douche yes number three wet groceries oh probably probably so rosa parks was pissed she was like i'm never getting on that man's bus again yeah but spoiler alert she did she intentionally got on his bus when the bus moment took place i wouldn't go that far all right there i'm i'm piecing together the new version of the play in my head. And you're like, man, this is a lot spicier. Much spicier. Than the mayo I was served in elementary school. So that happened in 1943. Now let's jump ahead to 1955.

That fall, a black teenager named Emmett Till was murdered by white men when he was visiting his extended family in Mississippi. Yes. You want to hear that story? We've got an episode for you. We sure do. What number, Kristen? That's the Google it number, I think. So Emmett Till's murder drew enormous outrage from all over the country, and the NAACP, of course, got very involved.

But his killers were acquitted. Emmett Till's family got no justice. Once again, Rosa Parks was livid. The national and even international outrage about Emmett Till's lynching had been unprecedented, but even that hadn't been enough. At what point were things going to change? At what point would black people get justice in this country? And what more could she do to make that happen? Well, she did I sound like Ronald Reagan just then? Well, I don't not familiar with Ronald Reagan's voice. Well, he was president of the country. Thank you. I know who Ronald Reagan is. You probably know him from his Hollywood days.

So she and the members of the local NAACP came up with an idea. A few months after Emmett Till was lynched, at about 6 p.m. on Thursday, December 1st, 1955, Rosa Parks got on a bus. Okay, we're going to pause here. The story that a lot of us have been told is that on that day when Rosa Parks got on that bus, she was old, tired, just a meek little lady with no intention of stirring up some big old fuss. She had her French bread right there. We may also be under the impression that she was the first black woman to refuse to give up her seat to a white person. None of that is true.

When Rosa Parks got on that bus, she was 42 years old. Wow. She'd worked six hours that day as a seamstress. She wasn't really that tired. Her feet didn't hurt. She was definitely not some meek little lady. She was a civil rights activist and she had been working tirelessly for the NA gets on and it's James F. Blake. It's that same fucking bus driver. That is crazy.

That is coconuts. It's the little coconuts. Uh-huh. So she got on and she sat in the first row of the colored section. And she worked on a dress that she was sewing. And the bus made stop after stop. And soon the whites only seats filled up, but more white people got on. So the bus driver stopped and he got up and he went back to like the colored section. And he took the little sign that designated where that section began. And then he moved it back a few rows. So that

meant that four black people, including Rosa Parks, had to give up their seats. He said, y'all better make it light on yourselves and let me have those seats. So the other three people got up, and Rosa Parks did not. And the driver said to her, why don't you stand up? And she said, I don't think I should have to stand up. James handled it super well. No, he didn't. Don't worry. He handled it just fine.

And by that, I mean he called the police. He did? Yeah. He called the police. And the transcript of that phone call is nuts. Are you ready for a portion of that call? Yes. Okay, James. Help!

Help! Kristen. Dispatcher. Sir, are you okay, sir? James. Help! A shiny black white lady questioned my authority. Help! A shiny black lady questioned my authority. Help!

And the dispatcher said, Help is on the way, dearie! I about shit myself when you brought up Mrs. Doubtfire and I knew I had a Mrs. Doubtfire joke in here. Okay, so that was obviously made up, but you know, you get it. It was the dramatic reenactment.

Help! Soon, a police officer responded to that chilling 911 call, and he arrested Rosa Parks. And as the officer took her to the police station, she asked him, Why do you push us around? And he said, I don't know, but the law is the law and you're under arrest. Wow. So, yeah, he wasn't really wanting to have a discussion, but he did know the racist rules.

And he was correct. Rosa Parks had violated Chapter 6, Section 11 of segregation law in the Montgomery City Code. Section 11 of segregation law in the Montgomery City Code. That evening, Edgar Nixon of the NAACP and a white attorney named Clifford Durr bailed her out of jail. And from there, they sprang into action. Okay, so different sources have this different ways. According to Rosa Parks' own retelling, she didn't like set out on that particular day to get arrested, but she was aware that the NAACP wanted a good plaintiff for a case against segregated busing.

Regardless of whether Rosa Parks' arrest was spontaneous or planned, when it happened, the NAACP was ready. They'd been talking about bus boycotts for years. And they'd been talking more recently about... Bus boycotts, not cots for busboys. Just spat. That's a tiring job. And sometimes you do need a cot. Yeah. Brandi, I think...

I just wanted to clear up any confusion. I think you've found your new nonprofit. This is your calling. Cots for Busboys. Could they have little alarms? Because, you know, you don't want to nap in too long. No, yeah, absolutely not. Don't want dirty tables. No. So they'd been talking for a long time about a lawsuit, too. They knew that other black women had refused to give up their seats to white passengers, but they wanted the right plaintiff for the lawsuit. Like a civil rights activist, Rosa Parks. What else made her great for this? I don't know.

You looked like you had been called on in class. I am. And you're like, I don't know. I don't know. Why don't you tell us, Kristen? I know. I just don't want to say. No, so she was super well respected.

She didn't have any kind of criminal record. No skeletons in her closet. Exactly. She was married. She was smart. She was very politically savvy. A lot of people think that it didn't hurt that she was light skinned. Oh. In other words, she was an excellent poster child for this movie. Yeah.

So Rosa was arrested on a Thursday night. And right away, the Women's Political Council got to work creating 35,000 flyers announcing a bus boycott. I would also say. A cots for bus boys. Cots for bus boys. I would also say this happened much earlier than I remember it happening. Oh, really? Yeah.

When did you think it happened? I don't know. Later into the 60s. I mean, it's happening. Oh, really? Yeah. When did you think it happened? I don't know. Later into the 60s. I mean, it's 1955. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, in a way, this kind of kicked things off. I mean, it happened so close to Emmett Till.

Yeah. Yeah. Chicken or the egg. Excellent question. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay.

I didn't know. Like, you think you know this story uh-huh okay now here's an interesting question why do you think that the popularized story is the way it is well that's a complicated question. Not really. No. So the version we learned in school is like a lot less threatening. Yeah. It's way less threatening that this little old black lady just oopsies became an activist.

This was like an orchestrated event to stand up against the system yeah yeah um because man that could be dangerous dangerous if people learn from that oh wait she was an activist right oh wait she worked her whole life for this yeah yeah and everything was perfectly planned it wasn't really spontaneous at all. Yeah. There are lessons to be learned from this. Yeah. Yeah. Scary. I prefer her feet to be hurting. So here's part of what the flyers said for Brandy's new nonprofit. Busboys get tired sometimes. No. So it said, we are asking every Negro to stay off the buses Monday in protest of the arrest and trial. You can afford to stay out of school for one day.

If you work, take a cab or walk. But please, children and grownups, don't ride the bus at all on Monday. Please stay off the buses Monday. That Sunday, people in black churches all over Montgomery were notified of this boycott. And the newspaper, the Montgomery Advertiser, announced the boycott. Black people in Montgomery were energized. They weren't going to take this shit anymore. They wanted change.

They wanted black bus drivers. They wanted bus seats to be given out first come, first served. Because duh. Yeah. That is not a ridiculous concept. Meanwhile, the white folks were like, what is happening? Because in the past, when black women refused to give up their seats, they were just arrested. You know, they paid a fine.

End of story. Yeah. But it appeared that the cops had arrested the wrong black lady because this black lady had a lot of friends. Yeah. So on Monday, December 5th, 1955, the bus boycott began. And so did the trial of Rosa Parks. It lasted 30 minutes. Oh, my gosh.

She was charged with disorderly conduct and violating a local ordinance. She was, of course, found guilty, fined $14, about 130 bucks adjusted for inflation. But on that rainy day, thousands upon thousands of Black men, women, and children who normally rode the bus did not. They took cabs, they rode in carpools, they walked, anything to stand up for this cause. That night, thousands of people gathered to discuss the boycott. And the crowd saw Rosa Parks and they cheered and people asked her to speak. And at one point, Rosa Parks asked someone like, well, should I speak?

And they said, why? You've said enough. Which is again what we call shabam, shabam, the double whammy of sexism and racism. Yes. Brandy, it's going to catch on. Is it? Maybe. I don't know.

I guarantee it's going to be somebody's Discord name. You know what would honestly be my dream? Is if someone who does actually experience the Shabam Shabam double whammy at one point. I mean, the next time they experience something shitty, you don't take a moment. And then they're like, you know what this is? The Shabam Shabam Double Whammy. Yeah. Yeah.

And hopefully it brings a moment of levity. But the Shabams couldn't keep her down. And soon the boycott became even bigger. This wasn't a one day thing. The protesters would keep going until they saw serious change. They renamed themselves the Montgomery Improvement Association or MIA, which, you know, did they have MIA back in the day? I thought MIA had been around for forever. I don't know. Isn't that an army term? Yeah. Missing in action. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know. They didn't run the acronym by me.

They elected some new guy president of the organization. People didn't really know him well, but he seemed like a good leader. What was his name? His name was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Oh! My other eye with a confetti can! I'm sorry. We've got some stars in this story, okay?

And it'd be rude not to turn on the confetti can. I'm sorry. We've got some stars in this story, okay? And it'd be rude not to turn on the confetti. So Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. led the bus boycott for days and days and weeks and months. And meanwhile, Rosa Parks appealed her conviction. Rosa and her legal team were prepared to go the distance for this case. But they were kind of worried. The Alabama courts weren't moving quickly on this case at all.

And, you know, black people couldn't boycott the bus system for forever. Some people were walking like 20 miles a day just to boycott the bus. Wow. But eventually, you know, people were going to lose steam. And if they lost steam, what would this all be for? What's that line from Hamilton? We won the war. What was it all for? They realized that if the state dragged its feet, it could take like a really, really long time before it finally got to federal court.

Like it could take years. Yeah. court, like it could take years. In other words, this perfect lawsuit with this perfect plaintiff had been built on an imperfect legal strategy. Wow. So Rose's team reached out to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund attorneys, Mr. Thurgood Marshall, and Robert L. Carter. I don't know him,

but still confetti can. Do you? Are you familiar with that? I'm not familiar. I should probably look him up and do a case on him. Yeah. Out of respect. OK, so.

They got some really good advice. If the state of Alabama is slowing you down, bypass the Alabama court system. Yeah. Get yourself a new lawsuit, start a federal civil action lawsuit, and that'll speed this thing up big time. Yeah. Okay, I've mentioned it about a million times now that Rosa Parks wasn't the first Black woman to refuse to give up her seat. Well, thank fucking God she wasn't, because at this point, the bus boycott had gone on for a few months and civil rights leaders needed to find

other women to be part of this federal civil action. Oh, yeah. They I guess they thought about putting Rosa Parks's case in there, but then they were worried, oh, it's going to look like we're trying to circumvent the court, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's when Aurelia Broder, Susie McDonald, Claudette Colvin, and Mary Louise Smith all agreed to be part of a lawsuit which challenged bus segregation as being a violation of the Equal Protection Clause under the 14th Amendment. Wow. The strategy worked perfectly. I have a cousin named Susie McDonald. Do you really? I'm guessing it's not the same one.

I think Susie was like 70 in 1955, so I'm guessing no. Yeah, not her. No, okay. In June of 1956, the district court sided with the women in a two-to-one decision. The state, of course, appealed. Of course. All the way to the United States Supreme Court. But in November of that year, the Supreme Court affirmed the district court's decision.

And they ordered Alabama to desegregate all of its buses yeah they did or get a boot up its ass oh and martin luther king jr directly no martin luther king jr was like hey guys we're trying to do a non-violent thing here love where your head's at but put your boots away and all the supreme court judges were really bummed because they had their boots all lubed up and ready to go. But, you know, you got to go with what Dr. King says. Uh-huh. Okay. Ultimately, the black people of Montgomery boycotted the bus system for 381 days.

Holy shit. Mm-hmm. It was real bad for the buses. Yeah. Yeah, because, like, tons of buses just weren't being used. Of course. This is how dumb racism is. Yeah.

It's ridiculous. Yeah, you've got this bus system and you're like, no, I'd rather just kill this whole thing. Yeah. We'll just lose a bunch of money. It's fine. It's ridiculous. Rosa Parks' lawsuit didn't end up being the case that took down segregation on buses. But what she did was incredibly brave and it made her a civil rights icon.

But being a civil rights icon is fucking tough. Yeah, we learned that from Lloyd Gaines. Yeah. I mean, we didn't learn that, but that was an example of it. What do you mean you didn't? Obviously, we knew that it's tough to be the person. Oh, I was like, I don't get it. No, no, no. Obviously, we knew it. Already knew that it is tough to be the person standing out against oppression.

Brandy, it's easy because it just happens accidentally. Oopsies. No, but that case, what I meant was that case was a great example of how difficult it is. I totally get what you mean now. I didn't have any idea what you were saying at first. So it was tough even for activists like Rosa and Raymond Parks, who'd been active in civil rights for decades. They were adults when Rosa became internationally known. And it was still really, really hard. Rosa got death threats,

she lost her job, and Raymond's boss told him that he was no longer allowed to talk about his wife or her legal case at work. Wow! Yeah. So he quit. Not long after Montgomery buses were desegregated, things got so bad that Rosa and Raymond Parks left Alabama. They moved to Virginia and then they moved to Michigan to be near Rosa's brother and sister-in-law. But for all the talk about the North being progressive and the South being racist as hell, Rosa Parks said that Detroit didn't feel that different from Alabama. She found that in Detroit, there was a lot of work to be done around fighting discrimination, especially when it came to housing. So she continued her activism, and she used her connection to Dr. Martin Luther King to help a Black first-time campaigner for Congress named John Conyers. to help a black first-time campaigner for Congress named John Conyers.

When he eventually won, he hired her as his secretary and receptionist. And, um... John Conyers did a bunch of cool things. What else did he do? Yeah, well, okay, let's start with the good. Okay, all right. You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and then you have the facts of life. Oh, I was like, finish this beautiful poem. I wrote that.

So he co-founded the Congressional Black Caucus. He helped establish Martin Luther King Jr. Day as a federal holiday. He became the longest serving black member of Congress. All good things. all good things all good things and in 2017 he resigned from congress in disgrace because it turned out he'd sexually harassed a bunch of female staffers and then used taxpayer money to settle a harassment claim people are complicated yeah people are complicated. Yeah. People are complicated. But back to Rosa.

Okay. Who's really not that complicated, it seems. Over the years, she became involved in the Black Power Movement, and she spoke at rallies. But her life just got harder and harder. In 1977, her husband Raymond died of cancer. And a few months later, so did her brother. And two years after that, her husband Raymond died of cancer, and a few months later, so did her brother. And two years after that, her mother died of dementia. By that point, her own health began to suffer. She developed stomach ulcers, and she had chronic pain from

a bad fall on an icy sidewalk. To make things even worse, she was in really bad financial shape. To make things even worse, she was in really bad financial shape. She'd spent so much of her life working for causes and donating her money to causes that toward the end of her life, she didn't have much left over for herself. But she kept going. She established a scholarship foundation and she took public speaking gigs and then she donated the money she made right back to the foundation. Wow. And she set up the Rosa and Raymond Parks Institute for Self-Development, which teaches young people about significant civil rights and underground railroad sites. She joined the Board of Advocates for Planned Parenthood. Years passed. She kept working, kept fighting, but in the early 90s, she realized that the story of her refusal to give up her seat on that Montgomery bus had been twisted.

Over the past few decades, she'd been mythologized as some tired old woman who just oopsie-daisy one day decided to keep her seat on a bus. Whoopsie surprised right into civil rights. Oopsies a civil rights surprise. Yes. So she decided to set the record straight. In 1992, she published an autobiography aimed at young people. And in that book, she wrote, People always say that I didn't give up my seat because I was tired.

But that isn't true. She wrote, The only tired I was was tired of giving in. Wow. A few years later, she published a memoir called Quiet Strength. And then, in August of 1994, when she was 81 years old, and a guy named Joseph Skipper broke down her door. He told her that he'd just chased away a guy who'd been trying to break into her house. Then he demanded a reward for his good deed. Rosa gave him some money, and when he asked for more, she said no. And so he attacked her.

Oh, my gosh. Do you know this story? No. I had no idea. No. So after he beat up an 81-year-old woman, he fled. And Rosa called her friend, and her friend called the cops. And when word got out that a guy had beaten up Rosa Parks, a neighborhood manhunt ensued. Wow.

And Joseph Skipper was captured and beaten. Yeah. He was eventually sentenced to 8 to 15 years in prison and transferred to a prison outside of Michigan because, man. Yeah. Can you imagine? No. Okay, what do you think is more unpopular in prison, child molesters or somebody who's beaten up Rosa Parks? I bet they're pretty close.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That attack had a big impact on her. She suffered from terrible anxiety. She didn't want to go back home. So... Of course! Yeah, yeah, of course. So the

owner of Little Caesars... This story is just wild. The owner of Little Caesars offered to pay for her housing expenses. All she had to do was say pizza, pizza? Okay. Anyway, so she got into a new, more secure apartment building. Very good.

That was a reference to an old ad that they had. If you were a kid and you said pizza, pizza at a Little Caesars, you got a toy. Did you really? Yeah. Did you do that? No, I wanted to. I was too scared to do it. What did you think would happen?

I don't know. Did you think there'd be a confetti cannon? Yeah, you'd just get shot right in the eye with a confetti cannon. And here you sit as an adult with me and my confetti cannons. You don't remember that old commercial? I mean, I remember the little guy, pizza, pizza. And then he, you know, has pizzas. So yeah, the deal was if you were at a Little Caesars the little guy pizza, pizza, and then he, you know, had his pizzas. The deal was if you were

at a Little Caesars and you said pizza, pizza, and you were a kid, you got like a toy, like a Happy Meal toy kind of thing. And you never had the nuts to just say pizza, pizza. I didn't have the nuts. Wow. It's funny. I know

I would never have had the nuts, but you always seemed a little more bold. My nuts were bigger than yours usually. But we're talking about like walnuts versus pecans. Hmm. All right. All right. So the guy from Little Caesars sets her up in like secure housing.

Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Despite those hardships, Rosa Parks had lived a bold enough and long enough life to see widespread admiration for her work. Yeah. The NAACP awarded her its highest honor. She was inducted into the Women's Hall of Fame. She received the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Congressional Gold Medal.

In 1999, President Bill Clinton invited her to his State of the Union address, and he told the crowd that Rosa Parks was in the audience and said that she's sitting down with the First Lady tonight, and she may get up or not as she chooses. Oh, there's that Bill Clinton charm. So she did the work. She received the rewards for it within her lifetime which i think is kind of amazing but in her old age financial problems continued to plague her and in 2002 she got an eviction notice from the little caesars guy no i wonder if the little caesars guy i don't know what happened to him okay maybe he fell on hard times. Maybe. Maybe he fell on that spike that they... You know, do you remember the little cartoon?

I do. I do. Yeah. So luckily, a local church stepped in to help her. And two years later, when she was 91 years old and in terrible health, word got out that she once again was being threatened with eviction. Oh, gosh. It must have created, like, bad PR for the building owners

because they were eventually like, oh, whoa, hold on, everybody. What do you know about that, Rosa Parks? Yeah. Let me check my notes. We thought it was the white lady from the 1700s. So they said, we're going to let her live rent-free here for the rest of her life.

And the following year, on October 24, 2005, civil rights icon and lifelong activist Rosa Parks died. She was 92. On the day of her funeral, the cities of Detroit and Montgomery placed black ribbons on the front seat of their city buses. And Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice spoke at her funeral in Montgomery. She said that had it not been for Rosa Parks, she probably never would have been Secretary of State. Afterward, Rosa Parks' body was transported back to Washington, D.C., where she became the first woman and the second black person

to lie in honor at the Capitol. Ooh, that gave me goosebumps. I know. 50,000 people came to pay their respects. The bus in which she refused to give up her seat is now in a museum. And so is the dress that she was sewing when she refused to give up her seat. And in 2019, the city of Montgomery unveiled a statue of Rosa Parks. And near that statue, they placed four granite markers, each commemorating Aurelia Broder, Claudette Colvin, Susie McDonald, and Mary Louise Smith,

and Mary Louise Smith, the four black women who also refused to give up their seats to white passengers and who ultimately joined in a federal lawsuit that dismantled racial segregation on buses. Wow. Mary Louise Smith and Fred Gray, who was one of the attorneys who represented both Rosa Parks and the other four women, both attended the unveiling ceremony. Wow. Yes. attended the unveiling ceremony. Wow.

Yes. And that's the story of the kick-ass, not at all accidental activist, Rosa Parks. That was amazing. That was so amazing. Isn't that a crazy, I mean, it's so upsetting when you think about the version we have been fed of that story and why we've been given that version. I thought it was so interesting. Claudette Colvin, who was one of the four women, she was 15. I was going to say she was a teenager, right?

I remember her story. Oh, do you know this story? I do. Yeah, so she actually spoke out later in life, and her family has been really good about speaking out. She actually spoke out later in life and her family has been really good about speaking out. And, you know, I didn't write this part down, but Claudette basically said that at the time, you know, she was 15. She later got pregnant before she was married and she just felt like she felt kind of shunned. Like she felt like because she wasn't the perfect plaintiff, she didn't get any credit for what she had done. Yeah.

And in later interviews, she also talked about how, like, you know, she's not mad that Rosa Parks became an icon. You know, that's a great thing. But she is disappointed that, like, you know, she did something really difficult, too. Yeah. And she did it as a teenager. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

So. Yeah. Big thank you to all these women. No kidding. Oh, that was so good. I love that story. Yeah. It makes me really sad that she, that the later years of her life were so financially unstable.

Yeah. Yeah, it's really sad. Thanks for bringing that back up. But it is a good reason to talk about Little Caesars. And they are the sponsor of this episode. Just kidding, they're not the sponsor of this episode. Yell LGTC at your local Little Caesars for a dollar off of Crazy Bread.

Oh, that'd be great. Fuck, I love Crazy Bread. Seems like we talked about Little Caesars a while ago on the podcast. Didn't all the Little Caesars shut down around here? They sure did, Kristen. Thanks for bringing that up. Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm so sorry.

Yeah, the same guy owned all of them. And he, like, tried to sue Little Caesars because he said you can't make a – he was, like, selling the $5 pizzas for $6. Oh, yeah. And there was, like, a lawsuit between him and the corporation because they were, like, you're in violation of your franchise agreement. And so, yeah, he, like, shut them all down. Well, to be fair, I mean, can you make a profit? I don't think so. Probably not.

It's kind of a crazy good deal, right? It's a crazy, crazy, crazy bad deal. It's a crazy bad deal. You told us that great story. Now I'm going to talk about a serial killer. Hey, we can't all be good people, right? Oh, can I tell you? Oh, yeah.

So, you know, obviously Rosa Parks lived like forever. So did that awful bus driver. He died in like the 2000s or something. And so some reporter came to Rosa Parks

when he died and they were like, do you have any comment? And Rosa Parks, I mean, her comment was amazing. It was something like, well, I'm sure his family is sad that he's gone good for her she said what the fuck do you say exactly exactly you're not gonna be like ha ha yeah I guess he really had

it coming she had a funny way of dealing with stuff like that. Like at one point, the KKK wanted to adopt a part of the highway in Missouri. And so I guess they couldn't be turned down. So what the legislature did was they were like, OK, but we're renaming that section of highway the Rosa Parks Highway. And so I remember this. Yeah. And so a reporter asked her, what do you think of that? And she just said, oh, it's nice to be thought of. Yeah. Very good.

You crazy Missourians. Our racism is so kooky. Don't insult the head Crunchwrap Supreme. That's right. Grand Crunchwrap Supreme. Grand Crunchwrap Supreme. Imperial nacho fries. Those men work hard for those positions.

That's right. Uh-huh. All right. You want to talk about serial killer? Not particularly. What if I just said no? I'm like, all right, well, then I guess that's it for today. All right, goodbye.

All right, shout outs all around. Everyone. To everyone. To God, first of all. To Catherine Ramsland for the Crime Library, of course. Oh, my God, of course. And to an episode of Diabolical Women, which is on Lifetime. Of course it is.

I got most of the info for this case from those two sources. sources. It was just after nine o'clock in the morning on February 16th, 1994, when Alice Williams arrived at her best friend Norma Davis's house to pick her up for their weekly bridge game. Norma was like 86, but she was still extremely active and lived on her own. You didn't have to tell us that. You said bridge game. We knew. Right. In this gated community called Canyon Lake in California. So this is like actually a city, but like the entire, it's like a planned city and the entire thing is gated and whatever. Alice walked up to Norma's door and knocked and then listened for Norma to call out to her like she usually did.

Like, you know, come on in, whatever. Only Norma didn't call out. Alice heard only silence beyond the door. She knocked again and again, nothing. This was unusual and alarming to Alice. What if the elderly woman had fallen or had a heart attack? Alice knew that Norma always unlocked the door when she was expecting company so that she could just say, come on in. So she tried the handle and the door opened,

but the house was quiet. Alice walked around the first floor of Norma's house and there wasn't anything amiss, but the quiet unnerved Alice. She just felt like something was wrong. With no sign of Norma on the first floor, Alice climbed the stairs and entered the upstairs den. And there was Norma. At first glance, it looked as if she was asleep. There was like a brown blanket across her feet. But to Alice's horror, on closer inspection, Norma had been brutally murdered. There was blood everywhere. There was a knife sticking out of her neck and another sticking out of her chest. Norma had been stabbed 11 times before the killer left those knives in her. The wounds to her neck were so deep that she'd nearly been decapitated. The medical examiner determined that her death had likely

taken place two days prior to the discovery of her body. When police arrived at the house, they went to work collecting evidence. They found a length of phone cord that had been cut, and in the dust on the wood floor, they found a footprint or a shoe print. But it was small, likely a woman's Nike athletic shoe, which made them question if it was related to this brutal crime. And beneath Norma's body, they found her phone. What they didn't find was any sign of forced entry or any real sign of a struggle, nor was there anything of note missing from Norma's house. In fact, a large ring was left on her hand. The fact that this wasn't a robbery and that there was no forced entry were of great significance to the detectives. Whoever had done this had been able to easily enter and navigate the gated community

and had been easily able to gain entry into Norma's home. Right off the bat, police thought their suspect must have been a family member or a friend or at least a close community member. Did they know how she made entry into the home? Yes, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, Kristen. Oh, OK.

It wasn't forced. That's all they knew. Okay. They better figure out how she made entry into the home. That's right. At the very least, they believed it had to be someone Norma trusted. With the tight-knit community reeling over the thought that there could be a killer among them, detectives went to work interviewing those closest to Norma. She had lots of friends in the community and even like a pseudo family member, but no enemies to speak of.

So detectives sat down with that pseudo family member. Her name was Jerry Armbrust, and she had once been married to Norma's son. Jerry told lead detective Joseph Greco that she and Jerry had remained close after her husband's death, even after she had remarried. She said she'd taken on kind of a caretaker role in her former mother-in-law's life, often dropping off groceries, taking her to doctor's appointments, stuff like that. In fact, she had dropped off groceries for Norma just a few days earlier, probably Sunday, and she was found like on Wednesday. But she literally just popped in and dropped the groceries in the kitchen. She

heard Norma's TV on upstairs, but she hadn't even bothered to go up and say hello. She'd just gone home. Detective Greco was kind of weird, suspicious about Jerry's story. Yeah, he thought it was weird. He thought it was weird, first of all, that she would be like the caretaker for her late husband's mother. And then he thought the story about the groceries was weird. I don't think that's necessarily weird, but I do think it's weird that you would come to somebody's house and not say hi.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, I drop in on your house all the time just to like creep around. Just like wandering and yeah. What would you do? That would be so weird. Brandy, just dropping off some ho-hos and ding-dongs and checking out the living room. So, Jerry obviously fit their theory about a friend or a family member, and she knew the community well.

She lived there. Well, I mean, case closed. Did she have some Nikes? Well, and then there was the little thing about her shoes. Uh-huh. You have some Nikes? Well, and then there was the little thing about her shoes. Uh-huh.

During her sit-down with Detective Greco, he couldn't help but notice that Jerry had on Nikes. And that they were quite small. I mean, how small are we talking? Pretty small. Like, I think like a size five and a half or something. Oh, goddammit. Tiny. I've always been so jealous of women with small feet because they get all the good deals on the clearance rack.

Size nines, you don't get the good deals. Yeah. Those puppies are selling out. Mm-hmm. Detectives spent the better part of two weeks trying to make Jerry a good suspect. But when it came down to it. She made herself a good suspect. She just wasn't. She just wasn't.

They sat down with her multiple times. She didn't know anything. She genuinely just was a nice woman who loved her former mother-in-law and wanted to help take care of her. Just as they had cleared her as a suspect, the community was sent into a tailspin when another murder occurred in Canyon Lake. How big is this community? So it's pretty big. Like one thing I saw said like 10,000 people. So it's like a city.

It's a full on gated city. But still, I mean, two murders. Yeah. Yes. That's a lot. It was Monday, February 28th, and June Roberts' friends were worried. It was her 66th birthday, but she wasn't answering her phone. By that evening, still unable to reach her, three friends got together

and went to her home to check on her. They had heard about the murder and like were like, holy shit, is this, like they obviously were just kind of on high alert. Yeah. And so they went to her home, but she didn't answer the door. Her friends knew she kept her house key on the keys to her golf cart, which was a super common practice in this gated community. So they got the keys off her golf cart, and they made entry into her home. Mm-hmm. And they made entry into her home. Mm-hmm. And to their horror, they found June dead inside.

Oh. She was on the floor, and a heavy chair was overturned on top of her. There was a length of phone cord around her neck. And the other end was secured, like, to the arm of the chair. Initially, detectives thought it looked like the strangulation hadn't killed her. It likely just subdued her and then she'd been bludgeoned to death with a decorative wine decanter. The decanter lay in blood covered pieces on the floor around her. But an autopsy would later determine that it was actually the opposite. Her cause of death was the strangulation.

She'd been beaten first and then strangled. As was the case in the Norma Davis murder, though, nothing of note was missing from the home. Valuable jewelry was left on the victim. She had like a giant diamond ring that was still on her finger. Well, yeah, I mean, if you're living in a gated community, you're doing all right. Yeah. And again,

there was no sign of forced entry. Like Norma's murder, though, there was a brutality to the killing. We're talking, you know, in the first case, there were the multiple stab wounds.

In this one, there was the bludgeoning with the wine decanter. That seemed to detectives like this was someone taking out some serious anger on these women. It was clear to Detective Greco that these murders were connected. But were they personal? Jerry Armbrust wondered the same thing. She'd known June Roberts well.

Was the killer targeting people around her? Could she be next? I'm sick of all these questions. I want some answers, damn it, Brandi. You have me intrigued. The Canyon Lake community held a special meeting to make residents aware of what was going on in their city. They urged people to lock their doors and be extra vigilant. Several of the older residents who lived alone left their homes to stay with family members. Police also increased their patrols of the area. A few days later, police got a call that would prove to be the break in the case that they needed. The bank had called June Roberts' family to alert them of a significant number of charges that had been made on her credit cards.

The family alerted detectives and they went to work tracking down who had made those charges. But it's 1994, so it's not that easy. Okay, I was about to be like, what an idiot. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Whoever had been using June's cards had been on quite a shopping spree. They treated themselves to fancy meals, services at a salon, a massage at a spa. And on top of that, they bought all kinds of clothes, shoes, perfume, you name it. Detective Greco thought the salon would likely be his best bet. The person using the card would have be his best bet. Yes. The person using the card would have spent a significant amount of time there. So off he went to talk to the salon.

Could you describe someone's scalp in detail? Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. Look at you. You look cocky almost. I can recognize a client from behind. For real? Yeah. If I'm like at the grocery store and I see... That makes from behind. For real?

Yeah. If I'm like at the grocery store and I see, I can recognize my. That makes me really uncomfortable. Quit staring at people's asses. I can't see their asses because they're in chairs. That's why she has those clear chairs. She stands there and she goes. Can you really spot someone from behind? Yeah.

I can recognize someone's head. And I can. There are often times where I'm Yeah, I can recognize someone's head. And I can, there are often times where I'm like, I know that person's hair. I can't remember their fucking name. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, how have you been? How's the family?

And then he's like, I don't have a family, Brandi. I told you this. They died in a fire. It's really awkward. You would totally remember that. I would, 100%. Okay, anyway, so Detective Greco goes off to the salon, and there he was able to talk to a couple of stylists who remembered a woman

who had booked her services under the name June Roberts. She'd gotten a whole makeover. She had them cut her medium-length blonde hair short and had them color it red. She'd also had a little boy with her. And he'd also gotten a haircut. A bowl cut, which was all the rage at the time. Oh, yeah. Hell yeah.

Norman had the sweetest little bowl cut. How old was he when he got rid of the bowl cut? Like, did he wear it too long? I don't know. I don't, did he wear it too long? I don't know. I don't think he did wear it too long. So David also rocked the bowl cut. For too long? Not for too long, but it was like a home jobby.

Oh. Saw some pictures. Had a critique going? It was not a good look. It like went too high. Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Yep. Yep.

Did they use an actual bowl on his head? I don't know. Brandi, these are the questions that you must ask. So she'd had this boy with him. He'd gotten a haircut. And the stylist recalled that the boy had called the woman his other mommy one of the stylists had the boy's name written down in her appointment book so detective greco made a note of it but his focus was elsewhere at the moment

the fact cheese fries he was thinking about nacho fries, actually. The fact that the woman had come in and gotten a makeover using June Roberts' credit card was setting off alarm bells for him. Well, I should sure hope so. Yeah, that's terrible. Was the murderer trying to change her appearance? Yes, duh. Or disguise herself in some way? Absolutely. I mean, let's move this along.

I know that's how these stories always go. Like, but wait. This was of significant note because just a few days earlier, there'd been an attack on a woman nearby that they had, as of yet, been unable to connect to the murders. Hmm. they had, as of yet, been unable to connect to the murders. But this woman had survived. Oh, shit. And she had been able to give a detailed enough description of her attacker for a composite sketch. Short red hair.

A sketch that was now being heavily circulated in the media. No, Kristen, she didn't have short red hair. She had medium-length blonde hair. A sketch that was now being heavily circulated in the media. No, Kristen, she didn't have short red hair. She had medium-length blonde hair. I thought she got the makeover and got the short red hair. She got the makeover to get rid of the medium-length blonde hair that was being heavily circulated in the composite sketch. You know, I made fun of this story for going too slow. Evidently, I'm too slow. And I just zoomed right by you. Zoomed, whoosh, right by you. Zoomed.

Boosh. Right past my short red hair. Dorinda Hawkins was the woman. No. Who had survived. Yes, that's her name. Dorinda? I've never heard that.

Dorinda Hawkins. Yeah, I'd never heard of it either. Okay. Was the woman who had survived and had given that description of her attacker. The attack had happened on March 10th. On that day, she was working alone at an antique store in Lake Elsinore, California. It was early afternoon when a blonde woman in her mid-30s came into the store to look around. She greeted the customer and told her to let her know if there was anything she could help her with. How old is Delinda? Dorinda? I think she's in her 40s. This is the

problem. Too much fight left in her? Yeah, so she starts with the 80-something-year-old, then goes for the 60-something-year-old. Now she's getting bold and cocky, going for someone about her own age. She stereotyped the antique store, thought that there'd be someone much older there. Maybe. For real, yeah. Also, she has mommy issues. Which is a phrase we don't use often enough.

Not often, yeah. So the woman wandered around the shop for a short time and then came to Dorenda and told her that she was looking for a unique frame for an old picture that she had. The antique store was also a framing store. So Dorenda invited the friendly woman into the back where they did custom framing to show her some options. When she turned her back to the woman and reached down to pick up some frame samples the woman looped a length of yellow nylon rope around her neck holy and started to strangle dorinda dorinda struggled against her attacker she dropped to her knees and the rope tightened she tried to call out but the woman spoke to her in a calm voice oh god she told her to be quiet and she said it was like almost in a soothing manner oh stop like the way a nurse would calm a frightened patient

durenda was drifting in and out at this point but she remembered the woman's calming voice she was telling her to go to sleep she's telling her that she wasn't gonna rob her sleep she's telling her that she wasn't gonna rob her what yeah that's worse yeah bitch i don't care you rob me let me live and then everything went black oh my god dorinda lay on the floor unconscious for nearly 45 minutes before a ringing phone brought her back to consciousness holy shit she called for help and was taken to the hospital where she was treated for head and neck injuries. But somehow, she was still alive.

She gave the description of her attacker to the police and they made that composite sketch. But she gave them another piece of information as well. And it was kind of chilling. The attacker had been a small woman at about five foot two. And it was kind of chilling.

The attacker had been a small woman at about five foot two. And Dorinda didn't think that she'd been much stronger than her. But she had, without a doubt, known what she was doing. Dorinda told police that she was sure this woman had done this before. Yeah. Yeah. sure this woman had done this before. Yeah. So it was about that same time that Detective Greco was putting all of these pieces together when he got a call from Jerry Armbrust.

Despite initially suspecting her in the murder of Norma Davis, he and Jerry had become kind of friendly over the course of this investigation. When he'd get new information or something descriptive about a suspect, he'd call Jerry and give her the info because Jerry knew like everybody in the community. She'd known both of the victims. And so he was just like, hey, does this ring any bells? Hey, does this say anything to you? Whatever. And so he was just like, hey, does this ring any bells? Hey, does this say anything to you?

Whatever. That feeding her information was about to pay off big time. Jerry called Detective Greco that day to tell him that she thought her stepdaughter, Dana Gray, might be responsible for the murders. Dana Sue Gray was the daughter of Jerry's husband, Russell Armbrust. She'd lost her mother to breast cancer at the age of 14 and had gone through like a rebellious, thrill-seeking phase in the wake of that loss. She'd fallen in with a group of skydivers. What? Are you serious? Yeah.

Brandi, no. That's legit. You didn't just say, she'd fallen in. Yeah, that's right. And she became an expert skydiver by the time she graduated high school. I mean. And then she'd even lived with her skydiving instructor while she went to nursing school. She was inspired to become a nurse when her mother died of cancer.

Okay. Skydiving. Yeah. That's like some rebellious rich kid bullshit, right? Yeah, yeah. Oh, my rebellious phase is I jump out of airplanes? Yeah. And I don't think that she was necessarily rich, but she was like... Brandy, if her hobby was skydiving, don't you think?

No, because she starts sleeping with the skydiving instructor. That doesn't mean you're not rich. No, that means the skydiving instructor is footing the bill for you to go skydiving. Don't her parents live in a gated community? They do. I think they're doing okay. Well, she continued living with this guy so he would put her through nursing school. She had a falling out with her parents because her stepmother found drugs in her room and like kicked her out. So she wasn't she wasn't living off of off of the parents for some time.

OK. So she had to live off of her skydiving instructor. As we all do sometimes. So common. So he put her through nursing school and following her graduation from nursing school, she kept on thrill sinking and got into windsurfing for a time. And she traveled all over to do it. She like spent a bunch of time in Hawaii. Like she was just wherever she could go to get that wind in her sails.

Yeah, this lady is super rich. But by 1987, she was ready to settle down she wanted to have a family and settle into her career as a nurse so in october of 1987 she married tom gray in a lavish ceremony in temecula the two bought a nice home in canyon lake and they worked hard. But they played harder. Dana loved to shop and she loved to have nice things and she spent their money faster than they could make it. They bought all

kinds of shit. They bought a bunch of cars. They bought boats. They bought a fucking plane. What? They bought a plane? They bought a plane. She's an expert skydiver, Kristen. She's a nurse and what does he do? He was a machinist of some plane. I'm sorry. She's an expert skydiver, Kristen. She's a nurse, and what does he do? He was a machinist of some kind. That's not plane money.

It's not plane money. They got into major financial trouble. Well, no kidding. So by 1993, Dana had found herself under a mountain of debt and in an unhappy marriage. Dana had also picked up a little habit of dealing with stress by self-medicating with opiates that she stole from the hospital where she worked. Well, you're going to lose your nursing license there. So she lost her job and had to file for bankruptcy. And she left her husband and moved in with his best friend.

Oh, shit. And his five-year-old son. Oh. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. So one day in early March of 1994, Dana showed up at her dad and stepmother's house for a visit.

It was kind of how it worked. She'd just kind of like, you know, check in every so often just to update them. Yeah, probably. Update them on how her life was going. And on this particular day, she showed off her new hairdo. Wasn't it cute? She chopped off all her blonde hair and had it dyed red. Hmm.

She went on and on about how great her life was going. She was dating this really great guy. And he had a young son that she'd grown quite close to. In fact, he'd started calling her his other mommy. I got to be honest. I was thinking lesbians. Of course. Yeah.

Yeah. In fact, I thought of the bridesmaid. We're all thinking. So this is all coming out. And Jerry knows, like all of these little tidbits from this investigation. She knows that this woman was with a little boy at the hair salon. So she's freaking the fuck out. Yeah.

Yeah. And Dana? Had obviously known Norma. Yeah. She'd also been quite close to June. June had helped her in her battles with alcoholism as sort of like an unofficial sponsor. Well, what a way to pay that kindness back. No shit.

You skydiving dipshit. That's a phrase you get to use so infrequently. And it's a shame. As soon, like the minute Dana walked out the door that day. Did you like how you did that? Yeah, I appreciate it. You guys, Brandy did a little hand walking thing. Because I don't know what it looks like to walk.

That's right. So as soon as Dana like walked out the door that day, Jerry was on the phone with Detective Greco. And she just made a phone out of her hand. Detective Greco. Just made a phone out of her hand. By the afternoon of March 16th, 1994. Stop that. Now Chris is being an asshole and like pointing, like she's doing like semaphore with her hands over there. Don't use big words around me.

I get intimidated. Don't use big words around me. I get intimidated. By the afternoon of March 16th, 1994, police had Dana Sue Gray under surveillance. What they didn't know was that just hours earlier, Dana had committed another murder. Dana followed 87-year-old Dora Beebe home from a doctor's appointment and knocked on her door shortly after she went inside. Dana had some story about how she was lost and needed directions. And Dora invited her in to look at a map.

And once she was inside, Dana had attacked the woman. She beat her to death with her iron. Oh, God. Dana then took Dora Beebe's credit card and bank card and took herself on a nice little shopping spree. It was actually in the course of that shopping spree that police began their surveillance on Dana Gray. As I mentioned earlier, they didn't even know at this point that Dora Beebe had been murdered. As I mentioned earlier, they didn't even know at this point that Dora Beebe had been murdered. She wouldn't be found until late that afternoon when her gentleman friend was like concerned because she hadn't shown up for like a dinner that they were supposed to do and had gone to her home. So police watched Dana go all over town that day.

And once they confirmed that she was using someone else's credit card and bank card, they followed her home and took her into custody on her front porch. They then executed a search warrant on the mobile home she shared with her boyfriend and his son. And inside they found mountains of shopping bags and boxes filled with clothing and shoes and liquor and perfume and just about everything else you could imagine. She also had in her possession June Roberts' bank card and Dora Beebe's bank card and a set of keys that had gone missing from the antique store where Dorinda had been attacked. It was just as detectives were getting ready to sit down and interrogate Dana that they learned Dora Beebe had been found brutally murdered. So the way this happened was like crazy. They've got her in an interrogation room.

And Detective Greco is like walking across the police department to go interrogate her. And he, yeah, yep, walking across. And he sees a detective from another police department there. Yeah. And he's like, what are you doing here? And he's like, oh, we just were working a murder. And he's like. Oh, my God.

What's the name? And he's like, holy shit, that's the name of the woman. Oh, shit. Whose card was just found on my murder suspect. Yep. So they're like, okay, well, we already have her in custody. This was Detective Greco's first murder case. And he was feeling like a little bit in over his head at this point.

So he just wanted to make sure that he followed like the letter of the law. Yeah. So he recorded every minute of his interrogation. Which is how it should be. Absolutely. With Dana Gray. Yeah. Right away, Dana was pretty up front

with some information she said that she'd been kind of depressed lately and had been going through some setbacks in life just murdering old women right no she didn't say that okay they they stopped her like right away detective greco stopped her and let her know what her rights were. Yeah. And said, you know, if you want an attorney, we can get you an attorney. And she's like, no, no, no. You know, I'll tell you what's been going on. And she cried a lot.

And she said that she knew June Roberts and that she had just used her credit card to buy some stuff. How'd you get the credit card? She just found it. Where? In her house. And she was already dead when she got there, though, so she didn't think, you know,

she was going to miss it or anything. Oh, okay. She hadn't murdered her, Kristen. Uh-huh. She'd just taken advantage of the opportunity. She didn't call the cops

or anything. She just took advantage of the opportunity. She just wanted to help herself. It literally breaks down at one point. And she's like, you know what? I fucked up. I just wanted to have something for myself.

I wanted some cash. I wanted to buy myself some stuff. I made a mistake. And they're like, okay, all right. So you just happened upon June Roberts' house. You found her dead. She had like some story about how she was going there to borrow a book on alcoholism from June. And they're like, okay, why don't you tell us about how Dora Beebe's bank card came to be in your possession?

Funny story. Same thing. Yes. Oh, gizzy. Same thing. I just found it. I just found her wallet. And when I was leaving the doctor's office earlier, found her wallet.

Mm-hmm. And I just went and bought myself some stuff. Weird. That's all. What a crazy coincidence. And they're like, yeah, don't you think that's a pretty big coincidence there? No. No. Mm-mm. Uh-huh. No. Coincidence. And they're like, yeah, don't you think that's a pretty big coincidence? No, no.

Uh huh. No. She's like, I do see what you're saying. I do see how that doesn't sound great. But but all I did was spend some money. Use some cards that weren't mine. I haven't hurt anyone. They're like, OK, all right.

And then she said, I got desperate to buy things. Shopping puts me at rest. I'm lost without it. Did you know that the Shopaholics series was based on this one? Of course it did. A lot of people think those are like beach read books. They're not. Hours went by and they could not get Dana Gray to stray from this version of the story. Detective Greco like tapped out at one point and that other detective

who was in charge of the Dora Beebe case like tagged in and was like, don't worry. I'm a seasoned detective. I will get a confession.

Uh-huh. He got nothing. I like the confidence, though. Yeah. He like pushed his sleeves up real high. Listen here. Help me help you.

But same thing. He was like, don't you see that this is too big of a coincidence? She's like, I understand what you're saying, but this is the truth. And she cried a lot. And she, like, had her dad come in. And her dad came in. And she gave him a big hug and said she was sorry that she'd messed up. But that was it.

She wouldn't admit to anything else. But they went ahead and arrested her and they charged her with the murder of June Roberts and the murder of Dora Beebe. Just because she liked to shop? Kristen. and the murder of Dora Beebe. Just because she liked to shop? Kristen. What they didn't do was charge her with Norma's murder. They didn't think that they had enough at that time to tie her to that because they had physical stuff tying her to both June and Dora. They then made a photo lineup, which they took to Dorenda, and Dorenda picked Dana Gray

out in one second. Yeah. She's like, that's her right there. God. I have never heard this story. I wasn't familiar with this case at all. This is wild. It is.

this story. I wasn't familiar with this case at all. This is wild. It is. So she's charged with these murders and in her first court appearance the DA is basically like look there's all kinds of special circumstances here. We've got murder we've got multiple murders we've got robberies that happened with those murders.

We're going to be seeking the death penalty. Yeah. And Dana We're going to be seeking the death penalty. Yeah. And Dana enters a plea of not guilty. She pled innocent on all the charges and she continued to hold on to that story that she just happened to find Dora Beebe's credit card. And that, yes, she had gone to June's house that day. That's a really stupid story. It is a really stupid story. So she gets I believe she gets a public defender and he files for a couple of postponements because he's got to figure out like, yeah, this looks terrible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so at an official hearing on June 23rd, the prosecution officially announces that they will be seeking the death penalty and that specifically if Dana was convicted, they wanted her sentenced to the gas chamber. Oh, this was only the third time in the county's history that they had requested the death penalty for a female. And to that point, only four women total had been executed in the entire state of California. But the deputy D.A. said that these cases were especially callous and that they called for this penalty. Did he specifically say he wanted the gas chamber? According to an article I found, yes, they specifically mentioned the gas chamber. Hmm. Okay.

I mean, it seems weird to me. Yeah. You know, I don't know. At this time, still, Dana was like, all I'm guilty of here is fraudulently using these cards and stealing some money and buying some stuff with it uh-huh i had no i had no part in these murders or on that attack of that woman at the antique store but no one believed her well yeah and she like made this whole big display of how she couldn't understand why no one could believe her. She started like writing all these letters like to anybody who would listen, asking them for their support. So detectives were still working to try and tie Dana to the murder of Norma Davis.

So they were talking to a bunch of people, showing her picture around. of Norma Davis. So they were talking to a bunch of people, showing her picture around. And it turns out that people in the community had seen Dana Gray in Norma Davis's condo the day she was murdered. Oh, wow. Yeah. There had been gardeners there working around the home. And when they were shown photos, they picked her out.

They had seen her in that house that day. photos they picked her out they had seen her in that house that day and in that mountain of stuff that they found in her home when they executed that search warrant they found the nikes that matched the footprint that they had at the scene yeah so they were moving towards trial they were moving towards trial. They were ready to add another murder charge on here. And in 1995, the trial was about to begin when her attorney dropped a bombshell. Dana Gray was changing her plea. She was still pleading not guilty. What? But now it was by reason of insanity.

Okay. It had taken her a year to realize what she'd done those days, that she had committed those murders, but she just, she wasn't in the right frame of mind when it happened. She'd had no control.

So they brought in all these mental health experts to do evaluations on her. Her attorney argued at the time that they entered this plea that she had been seeking doctor's help for a bunch of mental problems, but that had been exasperated by alcoholism and that her medications had been all mixed up. So it wasn't even her fault. It was the doctor's fault. Okay. So she changes her plea to not guilty by reason of fault. It was the doctor's fault. OK. So she changes her plea to not guilty by reason of insanity. So then the court appoints a psychiatrist to examine her and the defense hires a psychiatrist to examine her.

So the defense expert was this Dr. Lorna Forbes. She evaluates Dana and she says, yeah, you know, I think that there's some stuff going on in her life that really affected her. She was greatly affected when her mom died of cancer and that caused all kinds of problems. And then, you know, later those things were exasperated by, you know, her abuse of alcohol and opiates. And maybe she didn't have control over what she did on those days. And so Dana told different versions of what she remembered to the two different experts based on the belief is that she did that based on what she thought would serve her the best. Right. With whatever brand of expert it was. Yeah. So this defense expert, she told that, you know, she responded to some kind of negative comment that the victims

had made to her and she had just flown into a rage and committed the murder without even really realizing what she had done okay and then afterwards she had felt so sick over what she'd done that she the only way she knew to calm herself down was to steal their money shop give me a break that's how she regained her composure so that's what she tells the defense expert and the defense expert is like yeah i think there's a pretty good case for not guilty by reason of insanity here so then she goes to several sessions with the court appointed expert and this woman dr martha Martha Roberts, talks a lot on this episode of Diabolical Women that I watched. And she has a completely different view

of Dana Gray. She diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. She diagnosed her with extreme narcissism, with episodes of psychosis, and she said she had lots of examples of psychopathy in her history. She said the fact that she was a thrill seeker from a very young age is like a really good example of that psychopathy in her life. Oh. And it was like each stage of her life she was thrill seeking and the thrill needed to be bigger and bigger and bigger so when she started so young with skydiving yeah by the time she was an adult to get that thrill yeah she turned to murder wow yeah i mean that makes a lot of sense. It does. She believed, this expert believed, that the murder of Norma was done because she was upset.

Because apparently the bankruptcy stuff was still going on. And she had asked Norma to buy her house from her to save her from having to file, like, whatever, this version of bankruptcy and do a lesser version of bankruptcy. And Norma had the ability to do it but had chosen not to. Well, yeah, I'm not going to buy your house from you. Yeah, I'm not going to bail you out. Yeah. First of all, you're my, like, former daughter-in-law's stepdaughter, and I don't really owe you anything anyway. Yeah.

And you have gotten yourself in this trouble. Yeah. And so she believes that's where the first killing came from. Like, she had this anger towards Norma. She felt entitled. Yes. And then she received such a thrill from that that she just kept escalating. Had to murder again and again.

again and again. But she said there were specific things that Dana did after each of the murders that made her believe that, no, this was not a case of insanity. Yes, Dana was mentally ill. Yeah. But those things don't mean the same thing legally. Yeah. She never caught with bloody clothing. But all of the murder scenes were bloody. So she had been able to hide those or take steps to keep that from happening. Right. Also, at the murder of June Roberts, Dana told her that her boyfriend's son had accompanied her to the house that day.

He was in the car. And she had him wait in the car while she went inside and murdered June Roberts. And then she came back out and they went to lunch and they went shopping and they went and got their hair done. Oh, God. The fact that she had brought him and then had had him sit in the car and then been able to act as if completely like everything was completely normal and carry on with the day. She said was a clear example that this was planned out, that she knew right from wrong. Yeah.

And did it anyway for the thrill. Oh, that poor child. Oh, my gosh. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So things were not looking great for Dana Gray when the court expert came back and was like, no, I don't see any basis for a claim of insanity here. And so they were really faced with the decision. Like, are we going to move forward with this? This will be a lengthy trial. Who knows if we stand a chance and we are still facing the death penalty here. And so they decided to reach out to the prosecution

for a deal. The prosecution said, OK, fine, we'll talk deal. But here are the parameters. You plead guilty. You plead guilty to first degree murder of both June Roberts and Dora Beebe and Norma Davis. And you waive your right to ever appeal. And we will sentence you to life in prison without the possibility of parole. you to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The death penalty is off the table. We will take the death penalty off the table, but you will spend the rest of your life behind bars. Take the deal.

They didn't take the deal as it stood. Dana had one request, that they remove Norma Davis's murder from the charges. Norma Davis's murder from the charges. For whatever reason, she maintained to her father that she hadn't done anything to harm Norma Davis, and she was not willing to

change that story. Well, Norma was her dad's mom, right? No, Norma was her dad's wife's former mother-in-law. But they were close. Yeah. For whatever reason, it was kind of a family member, and she just was not willing to say that she had harmed a family member.

Gotcha. But she agreed to the rest of the terms. Would they drop Norma Davis's murder from her charges? And so the prosecution did. So on September 9th, 1998, Dana Gray, who was now 40, changed her plea. Before Judge Patrick F. Majors, she pled guilty to robbing and murdering both June and Dora, and she pled guilty to attempting to murder Dorinda. By this time, she had completely given up the story of insanity.

And, you know, she took some responsibility, but never showed any sign of remorse or anything. In October of 1998, four and a half years after the murders, Dana was finally sentenced. And she took an opportunity to make a little bit of a statement. She said, my life and my career have been focused on healing. It has strayed so far from that goal. It was so out of character. I'm sorry. and I know that these words will never be enough. I will live with this for the rest of my life.

She told the judge that she accepted responsibility for what she'd done, but she maintained that she believed her judgment had been clouded at the time of the offenses. She repeated that she believed that her acts were affected by a imbalance in her medication. Okay. And she like said like I think it's partially the doctor's fault. The doctor didn't monitor my medication properly after prescribing antidepressants and that's what happened here. Boy nothing's her fault. No shit. Judge Majors was unmoved by Dana's statement and really hated how she tried to throw the blame on someone else. And he said, it's hard to find words to describe the atrocity in this case. The crimes were horrendous, callous, and despicable.

She was obviously sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And she is incarcerated in the California Women's Prison in Chowchilla, California. Dorinda Hawkins told reporters after the sentencing that a medical doctor once told her that God let her live to identify Dana Gray. And that she believes that's why she survived. And that's the story of dana gray wow female serial killer dana's father continued to visit her after her conviction so jerry is actually interviewed jerry's her stepmother and has interviewed a lot on this episode of the diabolical Women. And she says, obviously, she believes that she was also responsible for Norma Davis's murder. But I don't know that her dad believes that or if he believes that she wasn't completely in control of her decisions that day. Those days, I guess, it was more than one day.

Yeah, it sure was. Yeah. I question if Norma Davis was really her first murder. She worked as a nurse for several years. Yeah. She could have gotten away with. She certainly could have. Yeah. And if she had that thrill-seeking thing from that young of an age, who's to say what she could have been doing in those years that she was working as a nurse and that it escalated to a brutal type of murder. Absolutely.

Yeah. Ooh. Hate it. Hate it so much. That was really interesting. Yeah, she is not someone that I was familiar with. I did not know that story. I did a little Google for female serial killers and

ladies! Came up with that! So we really covered some groundbreaking women today. Oh my gosh! That's one way to look at it, Kristen! It sure is! You know what I think we need to do now? Head on over to the Discord?

Okay. So this week we are doing something a little different. Our patrons know what we're doing. Yeah. So for our bonus episodes, at the end of our full-length bonus episodes, of which there are 19. Meaty boys. Meaty boys, as they say. We turn the tables on them a little bit.

We ask them the questions. Last month, we asked for people's wardrobe malfunction stories. Oh, my gosh. It's hilarious. It was hilarious. And I learned that static cling is not your friend. A thong will get stuck to your pants. Stuck to your pants.

Also, and we all know this, but periods and white pants do not mix no they don't mix so what did we ask them today kristin why are you shouting at me i asked for their worst restaurant experiences tc laura 82 says a horrible waitress kindly reminded me on the receipt what an appropriate tip would be for her service. In red ink with a big circle. Wow. I feel like that's a real bold move. That is a bold move.

It wouldn't pay off very often. Ew. Okay, even I think this is gross. Melinda says, at my high school cafeteria, I'll add a long black hair in my salad. When I returned it, they pulled it out and handed it back. Ew! What? What would you do?

I would be horrified. Yeah. They would not love the look on my face, I can tell you that. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, this is bad. Bob Moss for Life says, I bit into a chicken nugget at Chick-fil-A and it looked weird. I brought it to the counter and it turned out to be a fried chicken heart.

Oh! I would die. I would. Sorry. If you died in a Chick-fil-A. Kicked Corgi says, I went to Toby Carvery with my ex and some friends.

Toby Carvery has a buffet for a roast dinner. So you get meat, veggie, potatoes, Yorkshire pudding, and gravy. My ex found a fingernail in his potatoes.

No, no, no. We told the manager and he picked it up and said, hmm, looks like a child's fingernail. But to be clear, we don't use child labor. What? What? What?

That is the most outrageous response. Oh. I have fingernails where I draw the line. I can't handle that. No. Oh, gross. This question might be too gross. Okay, I'm going to read you one more.

Skip Hollinsworth says, We ordered from a local pizza shop that we loved. To be fair, we knew it had gone downhill a little, but it seemed to still be busy, and so we got our usual pizza. I put the box on the dining room table and put a slice on my plate. I took a bite, and the pepperoni immediately tasted wrong. At best, freezer burnt, and at worst, ugh, I don't even want to think about it. I reached over and opened the box to just look at the pizza as a whole, and when I did, a small

roach came zipping out of the very cardboard itself. Not like it was sitting inside the box. It was inside the cardboard bottom of the box, and it took off. My spouse and I lost our minds and literally didn't speak of it to this day. Oh, oh my gosh. No. Oh, I would die. Oh.

Oh my God. Oh, I would die. Oh, my God. T.S. Warona says, we got a fried chicken head in a basket of chicken wings. They didn't even comp the wings. They just gave us another order. No, thanks.

No, thank you. Ew. No. Okay. This sounds like no big deal, but I would be livid. Okay. Hats in Trench Coats says, I ordered my favorite blizzard from DQ, Georgia Mud Fudge, which happens to be my favorite blizzard from DQ as well. What is it?

It is... Calm down, calm down. It's fudge. Okay. Pecans. Okay. And brownie pieces. I mean, that does sound... So, like, essentially, the fudge mixes in, so you have chocolate ice cream with pecans and brownies in it.

Yeah, that sounds good. Delicious. Okay, calm down, lady. So, poor hats and trench coats here got the blizzard, and they forgot the brownie pieces so she had a pecan blizzard. That sounds terrible. You know, you're right. I don't think that sounds nearly as bad

as any of these other stories, but you look so mad. What would you do? You would be so pissed. Oh, I would be. But yeah, you wouldn't probably notice until you left and then like. Then you're even more mad. Yeah.

I mean, have you ever gotten home with food and you open it and you're like, fuck. Yeah. That's the worst. Because you're already home. Okay, this is stupid. But I'm still mad about it to this day. Like legit 15 years ago, I ordered a Greek salad from this diner in North Carolina. I loved their Greek salad.

Yeah. I got it home, ordered takeout. And it was a Roman salad. Sorry, that's a terrible joke. They had put shredded cheese on my Greek salad. And I was pissed. So I called them up and I was like, hey, there's cheddar cheese on my Greek salad. And the waitress was like, oh, sorry.

And I realized, what am I expecting her to do about this? And so here I sit, brokenhearted to this day. I never went back. Don't worry, I've got one better than that. Okay, what you got? What? Poor Holly Gallagher.

What? What? Holly Gallagher says, does a cruise ship buffet count? Oh it definitely counts A few years ago I was 17 I literally shit my pants after eating

I couldn't find a bathroom because it happened so fast Oh no It shot right through ya My sister and I ate the same thing and she was fine so it couldn't have been food poisoning. I think it could have. Your sister just maybe fought it off a little better.

I guess I was just too excited. The worst part is our room wasn't ready, so I didn't have any clothes to change it to. Oh, no. So she's talking like they literally boarded the ship. And so, yeah, when you board the ship, they're like, you know, your room will be ready soon.

Your bags will be there waiting for you. Go have a drink. Check out the deck. Yeah. At the buffet. Shit your pants. I bet she wished

she had a bed bath and be hot back Andy that day. Okay, I've got a cruise ship story. You do? This was like 10 years ago or so. And it was just my immediate family. Me, my mom, my dad, Kyla.

And we went on this cruise. And you know how my dad eats. My dad has the palate of like a five-year-old. He's a meat and cheese kind of guy. No veggies. very little fruits. Yeah. Okay. So Kyla was getting upset with him

because, you know, on a cruise, it's just like, you're balls out. I mean, balls out and just food. There's food everywhere. And so Kyla got upset and she was like, Dad, I love you. I want you to take better care of yourself. Just stop eating yourself just stop eating

and he's kind of you know you know he's just kind of like yeah okay yeah you know maybe I should you know eat a salad every now and then okay okay so she got she might be embarrassed by this story but she actually got so worked up over this that tears came to her eyes. Oh, no. Okay. So that's how worked up she was. Later in that same conversation, like, we finished eating, and my dad leaves, and he comes back, and the cruise ship had, had like a fro-yo thing. It's not going to work because you can't see what he did.

But it literally looked like a fudge dragon. He had made. It was just an absurd amount of ice cream. After Kyla had just been in tears asking him to take better care of it. What? Throw you. What? What?

Oh, my gosh. Okay. First of all, this is a great name. Okay. Hesitant McTea lover. That is good. It's very good. Okay. Hesitant McTea lover. That is good. It's very good. Yeah.

So I have one as a server, actually. I used to serve at Alamo Drafthouse. One night we screened Boogie Nights and only one fella showed up. He ate and drank and was really friendly. We were joking the whole time. He tipped appropriately and I came and checked on him pre-bus, the old regular server thing. I stayed in the theater most of the time since it was slow.

When he was leaving, I told him bye, have a good night, and he completely ignored me and zoomed past. When I went up to clean his table, he had ejaculated all over the seats. No. I got two managers to take a look and confirm the catastrophe. Oh. I gagged several times trying to clean it up.

Oh. Oh. And I never want to watch that movie ever again. Gross. That is terrible. Lock him up. No kidding.

Ew. Oh. You poor thing. Yeah. That's Ugh. You poor thing. Yeah. That's terrible. That sucks. Okay. Biebs 1022 says, not necessarily a horrible experience, but a very memorable one for my family.

As a small child around three years old, my parents took the family to dinner at Ponderosa Steakhouse. You remember Ponderosa? Yes. While dining, the man in the booth behind us had a massive heart attack. My parents, dad a fireman, mom with EMT training, being the kind souls they are, began CPR. And me, being a three-year-old asshole who could not read the room, took this as my opportunity to approach my mother mid-chest compression and demand ice cream, to which she told the waitress to take me and my brother compression and demand ice cream to which she

told the waitress to take me and my brother away and give us whatever we wanted the man lived my dad received an award for it but to this day my parents joke about never eating at ponderosa again i did not get any ice cream so zero out of ten on service for me Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh. Okay, am I making this up? Didn't you go to... Oh, yeah, you did. I watched someone... I'd like to think they survived, but yes, my experience at an Outback was interrupted by EMTs and an unresponsive man.

They brought in the paddles into the Outback. Wow. Yeah, they... man they brought in the paddles into the outback wow yeah they what i know is that when they rolled him out on the gurney they said they had a faint pulse oh my god yeah like from what i could tell because i was just in the waiting room from what i could tell the waiting room. From what I could tell. The waiting room? The lobby? What are you talking about? Yeah, I don't know. I'm thinking like hospital. Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Like from what I could tell, from my vantage point, was that this man just collapsed at the dinner table at Outback.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so all of this is going on. The place is packed. Yep. And they obviously can't be seating tables and stuff while I was going. People are getting pissed.

They keep going up to the hostage. They're like, how much longer? And she has to be like, someone's maybe dead. I don't fucking know. Someone is dying. Yeah. Oh, my God. I have completely forgotten about that.

No, when I read that story, it made me think of that. Yeah. Oh, God. That outback right across the street from where the old Ponderosa was on 95th Street. Don't have to tell me. Oh, my God. Someone in the Discord has the name Podtaya Nipples. Morgan Jimenez says, not mine, but my mom was eating a plate of pasta from a restaurant and got to the bottom of the plate to find a price sticker still attached to it.

Wait, to the... Yeah, like under her food. Oh, no. She tried to give them a second chance, went back a few months later and found pieces of cardboard in the food. Ew, what? And that was the last time she ate at that restaurant. Yeah, I would guess so. Yeah. Okay, so now this has me thinking.

For me, I think my worst restaurant experience was with you, and it was the time that Norm ate those wings. I was going to say, my worst food experience was this time that I ate those wings. I was going to say, my worst food experience was this time that I went to dinner with my friends and we ordered wings

and they came out kind of gray looking but my friend Norm ate them anyway and then he shit his pants at the restaurant. And also the table behind us ordered fish

and it smelled like bacterial vaginosis on a plate. It literally, I remember Norm got embarrassed because we were laughing so hard. But the scent was spot on. I mean, it was just like that thing came out and you and I just busted out laughing. Because it's like, how could anyone eat that? Yes.

It stunk up the whole place. It was terrible. They were off their game that night. They sure were. Poor Norm. I'm not sure he's fully recovered from that night. Well, that night, like, Norm just kept getting up to go to the bathroom. And finally, we were like, what's going on with you?

It was those wings. It was the wings. Luckily for Norm, he found he found like an abandoned bathroom upstairs no there was an event going on up there remember okay so at this restaurant norman norman's always really good at finding like the secluded bathroom and so he found one you know to dump half his body weight out of but then like that's a that's a room upstairs that they reserve for like events and so we had gotten there early for like a happy hour special where i guess they offload all the terrible diseased food and bad vaginas

and yet at a certain point it's like Norm was basically shitting at someone's event. Oh, God. That's terrible. Oh, no. Yeah, I think our worst restaurant experience was together. Yeah, yeah. I still think about that fish. Oh, yeah.

Like how? Do you think that woman died? I mean, okay okay this is rude but i kind of feel the same way i feel about norm in that situation like she kept on eating it he kept on eating those wings like if you smelled that fish and you ate it and you put it in your the fish okay they bring that out what do you do i okay so i do not like to ever send stuff back yeah um just because i'm afraid of people fucking with it yeah i've seen road trip yeah exactly um but that stench was so horrible. It took over the restaurant. It absolutely did.

Yeah, I would have to say something. Yeah. And I would be bitchy about it. Yeah. Because, again, I'm afraid of my food being messed with. So it would just be like, I'm good. Please take this away. Take this away.

Bring me nothing else. I don't want anything else from that kitchen. Yeah. And, oh, I'd be huffy.uffy i'd be mad i would accept a beverage um and then afterward it would be drive-through you know yeah but yeah no i i couldn't what would you do i mean i for sure wouldn't eat it no but i wonder i might just like sit there with it and. No, because I wouldn't pay for it. I would have to say something. You know what I remember?

I would hate doing that. What? I thought I was very funny because I kept loudly telling you to close your legs. Why was Norman so embarrassed by us? I don't know. Weird. Real uptime. He's so sensitive.

The stench was unbelievable. It was horrible. Yeah. How that woman didn't pass out at her table. I mean, because that thing never came close to us. No. That was embarrassing. And how does the kitchen put that out?

No kidding. How do you send that out? Obviously, so that was like, what, two years ago? Yeah. Three years ago? Have not been back. Nope. Sure haven't.

That same restaurant opened a new location. Did it? Yes. Kind of nearby where David works. And he was telling me about it i was like tap the brakes i don't know okay i will say i have been to other locations i mean not since then yeah but other locations like they have a location in parkville yeah locals are going to figure out what we're talking about um and i've i've the food there. Yeah. They didn't serve me up a skeezy scotch.

Back to vegetables. They didn't plate up a skeezy scotch for you? They sure didn't. I hate to brag on them, but they didn't. Oh, my God. I think these are really fun to ask people for stories. I really enjoy it. Let us know if you guys like this better than the normal format

because I think this is kind of fun. Yes, please. Please give us some feedback on that if this is something you'd like to see more moving forward. What do you think? Supreme Court induction time? I think it's time for some Supreme Court induction. Wonderful. Are you ready for some Supreme Court induction? Yeah, I actually have my list pulled up and everything.

No, you don't. I do. You actually have my list pulled up and everything. No, you don't. I do. You never have your list pulled up. I'm watching your little pink Christian float by right now. My pink Christian. That's what your cursor says when we're in the same document. Quit talking about my vagina. My little pink Christian.

Oh, my God. Now that's going to be so easy. But it has to be all lowercase. My Lil Pink Kristen. And Lil is L-I-L. Duh. Duh. O-M-G. Oh, excuse me. I just got a review. Duh. OMG.

Oh, excuse me. I just got a review email from Costco. My feedback is important to them. Stop the podcast. I got an email from Costco. How's it feel to be sitting across from someone so important? You know what, Kristen? I think you better do names this week.

Okay. Are you intimidated by me? Is that what's going on? I am intimidated by your little pink Kristen. Brandi, I'm just the same person I always was. Even before you started getting emails from Costco. Yeah. The fame from this email has not changed me in any way.

I will remain humble, and that is my pledge to you. Okay, this week we are reading your names. And your favorite cookies. Cookies. Brooke Maples. Oh, wait, should we say how they get in this thing? Oh, yeah, you know, you can get inducted onto this podcast. Hey, put some pep in your step. Did you know that

you can get inducted on this very podcast? How? By joining our Patreon of course. At what level? The $7 level, which is the Supreme Court. Oh my god. What's wrong with us?

I think we got a little hyper with the restaurant stories. I think it's a fun thing. I agree. I think also I'm frankly pretty excited about this email I got from Costco. They want to know what I think of the sectional. What do you think of the sectional? I really enjoy it. I'm a big fan of it, too.

I enjoy it very much. They didn't ask for your opinion, so keep it to yourself. Brooke Maples. Oatmeal Raisin. Emily. Anything with peanut butter. Stephanie Kay. Oatmeal Chocolate Chip.

Shawna Jeffess. Chocolate Chip. Vanessa Mata. M&M Cookies. Kelsey Lynn Cox. Soon to be Pearson. Hey. White Chocolate Chip Macadamia Nut. Vanessa Mata. M&M Cookies. Kelsey Lynn Cox. Soon to be Pearson. Hey!

White Chocolate Chip Macadamia Nut. Jennifer Ferreira. Double Fudge. Courtney B. Snickerdoodle. April West. Walnut Chocolate Chip. Courtney S.

Pignoli. That's not a thing, Courtney S. Candice Holman. My Grandpa Snickerdoodles Why'd you say it suggestively? I promise it's not a special thing. My Grandpa Snickerdoodles Kayla C. Homemade Chocolate Chip

Chris White Chocolate Macadamia. Andy Maiovi. Truffle cookie. Jen. Homemade peanut butter chocolate chip. Margaret Ponder. Lace cookies.

Laura Darby. Peanut butter blossoms, which I read as bosom stars. They do kind of look like little nipples. Maybe that's why she likes them. We don't know. Laura, let us know. Cash Murphy. The raspberry cheesecake cookie from Subway.

Okay, a lot of people are mentioning Subway cookies. Does Subway make a great cookie? I don't know. I haven't been to Subway in years. They're terrible at, you know, getting sex offenders out of their ranks, but maybe they make a great cookie? I don't know. I haven't been to Subway in years. They're terrible at, you know, getting sex offenders out of their ranks, but maybe they make a good cookie. Do you remember the last time we went to Subway? Yes, I do.

I do. I was like in the middle of telling you a horrible story and the guy was like, what did you order? Because he was trying to bring us out and you're like, yes. I was very disturbed by what you just said to me. I was trying to act like everything was cool for this guy.

And I just remember the look on his face was like, uh. Julia Dalton. Snickerdoodle. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Oh, God. The cannons are back. Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. And be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned.

And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best of The Origin of Everything, titled Is the Rosa Parks Story True? A TED Talk titled The Real Story of Rosa Parks and Why We Need to Confront Myths About Black History by Professor David Eckert. And Wikipedia. I got my info from an episode of Diabolical Women, an article for the Crime Library by Katherine Ramsland, and an article for the New York Daily News by Mara Boveson and of course Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.