Let's Go To Court! - 160: The Mysterious Death of Sarah Widmer

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

It was nearly 11 p.m. when Ryan Widmer called 911. He told the dispatcher, “My wife. She fell asleep in the bathtub, I think. I was downstairs. I just came up here and she was laying face down in the bathtub.” He said that his wife, Sarah, fell asleep in the bathtub “all the time.” Ryan drained the bathtub and removed Sarah from it, then began performing CPR. Paramedics showed up a short while later, but were unable to revive Sarah. Later, questions emerged about how exactly Sarah Widmer died. Brandi presented the only case because Kristin and Norm said goodbye to their sweet pup of 13 years this week. Peanut lived a long, happy life and left her mark on this podcast. She never shared a case, but she did make her presence known with an occasional bark. She’ll be missed.   And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Mystery in the Master Bedroom” episode Dateline “Sarah Widmer” chillingcrimes.com “Widmer admitted to punching, killing wife, witness testifies” by Denise G Callahan, Springfield News-Sun “Newly uncovered Ryan Widmer documents: My wife walked on tippy toes the night she drowned” by Keith BieryGolick, cincinatti.com “A decade after Sarah Widmer drowned in tub, husband is still trying to overturn murder conviction” by Paula Christian, WCPO Cincinnati “‘Reasonable Doubt’ explores Ryan Widmer case, concludes he lied to police” by Jay Warren, WCPO Cincinnati  YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode I'll talk about Peanut. And I'll be talking about the mysterious death of Sarah Widmer. Hi Kristen. Hi. I think we should do the ad. You want to just hit the ad right off the top? Yeah. Okay. Here we are.

Okay. This is super tough, and I think we should just do it, and you can say whatever you can say. Yeah. And then. Okay. Well, the first thing I'll say is if this is your first episode of the podcast, pick another one. Kick rocks. Go somewhere else. You didn't tell us to kick rocks. I'm in. Go to another episode within the podcast.

If you haven't listened to us before this, then fuck off. I'm sorry, I misunderstood. You were just yes-anding. That's right. I'm just here to you were just yes anding that's right I'm just here to support you in whatever way that may be we'll see what I can say hopefully I can say more next week

we had to put peanut down this week this week is really two days ago this is not yeah two days it is extremely fresh um and just the hardest thing ever yeah we oh my gosh so i just want to say a few things and, you know, I got Peanut the year I graduated college when I had moved to a city where I didn't know anybody. All I had was a job and an apartment. And oh, my gosh, I got her and I just loved her so much and she loved me so much. And it was just like it was a life changing thing to have this dog who was excited to see me when I got home and just provided me with nothing but joy and love all the time. And I was just I was crazy about her and six months later we met Norman and like the first time Norm came over he brought treats for Peanut he kissed Peanut before he

kissed me like I told you earlier I feel like Peanut picked my husband for me. Yeah. Because so much of dating is, like, putting up a front and trying to be kind of cool. But, like, you couldn't be cool around Peanut. Yeah. Because she was just all happy and lovey and all over you. And, you know, it just makes you into the big soft nerd that you are. Yeah. nerd that you are. And so, you know, she's been with me through everything for 13 years, through law school, through moving away from North Carolina to just everything. And I remember thinking when I first got her, like, huh, how long do dogs live? And I remember thinking, okay, I'll have her until I'm 35. Oh my gosh. And then

in 2016, she was diagnosed with diabetes, which is just an outrageously hard thing to manage in an animal because we had to give her insulin shots twice a day. And I thought, well, obviously I'm not going to have her till I'm 35. But Norman just did an amazing job with her. Like he became her caregiver. I have a fear of needles that I've obviously I got over. But I mean, he really stepped in and gosh, she was in our wedding. stepped in and gosh she was in our wedding she was I mean she was everything he proposed with peanut peanut was involved yes um so you know over the years she's slowed down and she got arthritis and you know just but she stayed really happy and then a couple weeks ago, I felt lumps by her throat. And it was funny because I'd felt lumps on her before, and I'd freaked out like six months ago, totally freaked out.

And then we took her to the vet, and they were like, oh, yeah, those are squishy lumps. Those are fine. And I thought, who knew you could have a lump and it's just fine? Yeah, exactly. These weren't fine. And I thought, who knew you could have a lump and it's just fine. Yeah, exactly. These weren't fine. So last Thursday, she was diagnosed with lymphoma. And basically to treat lymphoma, to do what needed to be done, anything they would have given her would have been bad for her diabetes. And, you know, Norman and I decided not to do anything like that.

And we were told she had about a month. And, you know, in reality, she just had a few days. It was just really, really fast. Extremely fast. But I'm just so grateful that I had her in my life. She brought me so

much joy. And it's so funny, you know, she was 13. She had so many health problems. And I kind of wondered, well, maybe I'll be kind of prepared for this. You just can't be prepared. You just can't be prepared. You just can't be.

No. She was an amazing dog. Yeah. She had the best personality. She got to be a, she was really a big part of our podcast, really, like, even from the early days. I know. She barked. She farted.

I mean, oh, my God, her farts could like clear a fucking room. Legendary farter. We've got a lot of team peanutters out there. Yeah. Yeah. So. I don't know what my message is here, but. I don't think there needs to be a message. Well, I've thought about talking about the experience of having to let her go because that was even harder than I thought it would be. You guys were faced with an impossible decision that you had to make in days. Like you didn't get time to think about it.

In days. Yeah. Like you didn't get time to think about it. And the thing that I keep coming back to, and I know I've already told you this, but like I just think about how lucky Peanut was that she had you guys that loved her so much. And you guys made the decision to do what was best for her by not prolonging her life and leaving her in discomfort, even when that decision was so hard for you guys. Yeah. Norman had said on. So what was that Thursday she got diagnosed and on Saturday he said to me, I don't think we have weeks with her. I think we have days. And I agreed. I mean, we could feel her throat. But she was acting totally normal. She walked down the stairs, which was not something she'd been doing lately.

Norm usually had to carry her. And she peed and pooped. And, you know, I just thought, oh, my gosh, great. And I was just loving that. I felt so grateful that we felt like we had time so I could spend extra time with her. And then she went to drink water and she couldn't get water down and she couldn't get food down. And her breathing got more labored. And on Thursday night when we got her diagnosis, I'm a person who talks to my dog.

Of course. So I got down on the floor with her and I promised her that I wouldn't let her suffer. And I thought that would be a really easy promise to keep, but it was so hard on Monday. It was so hard to know that, like, I could still see her personality, but the suffering was coming. You know, it was, and and realistically it was there um but you know we took her in and uh I think the reason I want to talk about this is like we got home and I felt so guilty I felt terrible I thought oh my god what if we did it too early and I know we didn't I you know it's been a couple days and i

look back and you know the vet said this is only going to get worse and the veterinarian was shocked by the new lumps on her throat and said yeah she's having a lot of trouble breathing and i just can't imagine how gut-wrenching it would have been if she had, if we'd had to watch her suffer because we didn't bring her into the vet, you know, when we could have. Yeah. But I did some reading and it turns out that feeling guilty and terrible after this is normal. And so I don't know if anyone else out there is struggling with this, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I think that's great to share that experience. I mean, it's obviously a terrible experience, and I hate that you guys are going through this. And I loved Peanut so much. I know. Peanut. Peanut. That's what I called her. Yeah.

Yeah. And it was really sad today to come here and not be greeted at the door by Panette. Not be barked at. Yeah, she never let you break in. No. She knew what you were about. You were going to try to sneak in a side door or something. But no, I, oh, what a life you guys gave her.

What an amazing life she had with you guys gave her what an amazing life she had with you guys you guys gave her so much love and took such great care of her and there's not a dog that was more loved than Peanut that is one thing

I don't feel like we wasted a day a day we just loved her like crazy her entire life and she was such a part of our relationship and i think that's one of the really cool things is like telling telling friends and family about this they everyone has said like we know how much you loved her oh yeah and i'm just so glad that that was apparent how much i loved her because oh it was deep yeah absolutely so anyway all this to say i don't have a fucking case today that's okay um and she's currently planning her peanut chest tattoo oh my god no no she is on my heart

of course she is I'm not doing any tattoos I covered my chest like you had a tattoo going like I was coming out what if you went to get a peanut memorial tattoo and the tattoo artist misunderstood you went to get a peanut memorial tattoo,

and the tattoo artist misunderstood you and tattooed just a peanut on you. Honestly, I think that would be kind of fun. It would be kind of fun. Yeah. It really would. Well, first of all, I would never get a tattoo. I know you would. But, like, I kind of, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. I can kind of see that. Yeah, I think it would be fun, too. I mean, so everybody feel free to rush out and get peanuts. That's the message. Well, and the other thing I should say is I haven't posted anything about online about this online. If I can, I will. Yeah. And I'm sure people will say nice things. So thank you in advance. I just know we record these things kind of early and I don't want people to think that.

Yeah, of course. I hope you have a really light case this week. I'm not. Of course not. It's me. Who the fuck do you think you're talking to right now, Kristen? You couldn't have gone easier on me. Yes, let me tell you about this great class action lawsuit with Cool Whip.

Uh-huh. See, I would be in the mood for that right now. Thanks a lot. I'd love to hear all about that. No, wouldn't that have been great if I could have found, I don't think that lawsuit exists, but I would be here for that lawsuit as well. No, you wouldn't. You'd be bored as hell.

No, but I love Cool Whip. Yeah, you'd hate to see their good name besmirched. Okay, here's my prediction. If there were a class action lawsuit... I know what you're going to say. I know exactly what you're going to say. What is it? Tell me. They don't just serve it like refrigerated.

It has to be in the freezer. You can't just take it home and use it right away. So they tried to do a work around with that. They came out a few years ago with like a aerosol version, like Ready Whip. Not the same. No.

And it flopped. Like a big. What? Dong. You're following this Cool Whip news very closely, I gotta say. Okay, listen. How do you know that it flopped? I actually don't.

I don't have any idea. You just know that it flopped for you, personally. That is my assumption, because it's no longer on the shelves. Okay. You seem so smug about it. My powers of deduction. Yeah, because don't go messing with Cool Whip. But you want them to mess with Cool Whip.

You want it to be refrigerated. Yeah. Would it be so hard for them to have a small selection of it at usable temperature? See, it kind of scares me that they can't. Right? Right. Doesn't that seem a little alarming? Yeah.

That's true. Because if they could, wouldn't they? You'd think so. You sure would think so. I don't know. It seems kind of like how Velveeta doesn't have to be refrigerated, but you kind of just want to put it in the refrigerator. Right, exactly. Just to lie to yourself.

Just to make yourself feel better. Like there's actually some kind of cheese product in there. It's not just chemicals. It's delicious chemicals. Are you going to make some cheese dip for the Super Bowl? I mean, I feel like it'd be against my religion to not do that. All right. Let's talk about a mysterious death.

Oh, great. Thanks. Okay. Shout outs. Is it about a dog who died suddenly? No. Could you imagine? No, it's not. You'd be the worst person ever. What? What? Okay. I'm going to say this and if we need to cut it, we can cut it. Okay. I did remove a part of the case where the guy proposed by tying the ring to the dog's collar. Is the guy a murderer?

Yes. Oh, shit. Maybe. Is he? Mystery. It's a Brandi Gates. Who knows? That was very sweet of you to censor the episode for my feelings.

That was very sweet of you to censor the episode from my feelings. Okay, so shout outs to an episode of Dateline that I won't name until the end. And then ChillingCrimes.com. That'd be great for Cool Whip. That would cover the shit out of that Cool Whip case. Absolutely. And people would be like, I can't get a read on this website. they would cover the shit out of that cool whip case. Yeah, absolutely. And people would be like, I can't get a read on this website. Is it all a pun or are there some murder stories in here?

Anyway, this is not a website I was familiar with, but they had a great piece on this case. Ryan and Sarah Widmer were the story you hear about so rarely. Are you about to tell me they were perfect? They'd started as a blind date. Sarah's best friend was married to Ryan's college roommate, and the two of them thought Sarah and Ryan would be the perfect couple. And they were right. They'd hit it off right away.

They balanced each other out. Ryan was laid back and easygoing, while Sarah was a planner and super organized. The relationship grew serious pretty quickly. And in early 2008, the couple bought a home together. It was a four-bedroom brick home in Morrow, Ohio, which is a small town about 30 miles outside of Cincinnati. Their wedding invitations went out shortly after they moved into their new home. And in April, the couple wed in a beautiful formal affair. Following the wedding, Ryan and Sarah.

With your stories, I'm always waiting for the other two to drop. No, they're the perfect couple. You always give me so much bullshit about like, oh. They are the perfect couple. I learned from Dateline. I know. That's how it's done on Dateline. I learned from Dateline.

They were the perfect couple. Oh, wait, except it was abusive and terrible and everyone knew it for years. Hmm. Hmm. Following the wedding, Ryan and Sarah honeymooned in Costa Rica and then settled into married life. Sarah worked as a dental hygienist across the river in Kentucky, and Ryan worked as a sports planner for the county. What's a sports planner? I don't know.

I assume he organized recreational sports. Yeah, yeah, that makes the most sense. But I'm not sure. Okay. Life was good for the young couple. Until it wasn't. It was Monday, August 11th, 2008, and the evening had been uneventful. Ryan and Sarah came home from work and ate dinner together.

Leftover burgers, corn on the cob, cheesy potatoes. Oh, that's a Midwest meal right there. Yes, it is. You had me at leftover burgers. Then they watched some TV, Sarah's favorite shows. And then somewhere. What were her favorite shows? I don't know.

I couldn't find them. Damn it, Brandy. And then somewhere around 10 o'clock, Sarah told Ryan she was going to go upstairs and take a bath. She asked Ryan to check the doors before coming upstairs to bed and said, I love you, before climbing the stairs to the master bedroom. I love you before climbing the stairs to the master bedroom. Ryan stayed in the living room watching football for 45 minutes or so before heading up to bed. Then at 10.49 p.m., Ryan called 911. My wife, she fell asleep in the tub, I think.

I was downstairs. I just came up here and she was her falling asleep in the tub all the time. The dispatcher told Ryan to take Sarah out of the tub to lay her on a flat surface and attempt CPR. Ryan told the dispatcher that he was emptying the tub and then set the phone down while he pulled Sarah out and laid her down. He returned to the call 29 seconds later and told the dispatcher that he'd laid her on the bedroom floor. The dispatcher thought this was weird because she'd said, like, pull her out of the tub and lay her on the floor, not, like, carry her out of the room, but whatever. You don't know how big the bathroom is. Right, right. So the dispatcher told him that an ambulance was on the way and that he should continue

CPR until they arrived. And the dispatcher walked him through how to perform CPR. Within six and a half minutes of Ryan placing the 911 call, paramedics were at the house. They took over CPR efforts. They tried to intubate Sarah multiple times but were unsuccessful. They rushed Sarah to the hospital. Ryan rode along in the ambulance and then was joined by his mom. She met them at the hospital and like the two of them went and sat in a small room off the emergency room while doctors worked to resuscitate Sarah. In all, they worked on her

for 45 minutes. They made several more attempts to intubate her. The sixth attempt was finally successful, but it was too late. To Ryan and his mother, Jill, who were, like I said, waiting in that little room off the ER, it seemed like an eternity had gone by without news. Then a woman came in. Ryan looked at her and asked, is she gone? And the woman said yes. And Ryan collapsed onto the floor, sobbing. Following the news that his wife of less than four months was gone, following the news that his wife of less than four months was gone ryan spoke to the police at the hospital he told them that it had been just the two of them at home that night that he'd been downstairs watching football and that she'd gone upstairs to take a bath around 10 o'clock he told the police that she was afraid she might fall asleep in the tub

and they asked him if that was something that had happened before. Yeah, that's really weird. Right? Yeah. I think it's a really weird thing to say. Ryan said no, that it wasn't something that had happened before, but that she would often fall asleep in unusual places. Like? I don't know.

But he had told the dispatcher before that she often fell asleep in the tub. Okay. If you fall asleep in the tub and you start to drown, wouldn't you wake up? Yes. They have a medical expert who says, yeah, it's impossible to drown by falling asleep in the tub. Oh. Because, like, the water coming on your face would wake you up. And if that failed to wake you up, then the gag reflex that takes place when

water would start to enter your airway would wake you up. The medical expert that they talked to basically said without the intervention of drugs or alcohol, it would be impossible to drown in the bathtub by falling asleep. Yeah. Yeah. It was the early... Sorry. Get some of that thug life down here.

What's it called? Body armor light. Body armor light. I prefer thug light. It's like the harder version of Pedialyte. Yeah. It's for when you're an adult and you're hardcore. It's not for babies.

Yeah. It was the early hours of the morning when Ryan and his mom left the hospital. They went to the couple's house, but Ryan said he couldn't go in. He asked his mom to go grab him clothes and then just take him to her house for the night. It hadn't even occurred to Jill that there was any reason to believe that Sarah's sudden death was anything other than a tragic accident or the result of some unknown medical condition at this point. That was until she entered Ryan and Sarah's bedroom and found crime scene tape

across the bathroom and pieces of carpet missing from the floor. They'd been cut away and bagged as evidence. Jill kind of shrugged it off thinking it must be some kind of formality,

just a regular part of a death investigation. But then, two days later, Ryan Widmer was arrested Thinking it must be some kind of formality, just a regular part of a death investigation. But then, two days later, Ryan Widmer was arrested and charged with the murder of his wife, Sarah. It turns out that a suspicious death investigation had been triggered almost immediately in this case. It had started with the 911 call. The dispatcher thought Ryan had given too much information on the call. Yeah. Why hadn't he just said, my wife isn't breathing? Right. He had a whole story about how he'd been downstairs watching TV and he'd come up and he thought

maybe she'd fallen asleep in the tub and here she was lying face down. Yeah. The dispatcher thought that was way too much information. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. And so immediately she had alerted whoever and they had started.

The mayor. She called the mayor. Yes. Who then called the FBI. And a suspicious death investigation was started. Yeah. By the way, for people who aren't up to date on episodes, that's a joke. We know that's not how it works.

That's not how it works. I was just envisioning the email. Actually. Actually. So just as Sarah Widmer was being loaded into the ambulance, Lieutenant Jeff Braley arrived at the scene to determine if they did in fact have a suspicious death on their hands. He spoke to the paramedics first, and it turns out that they also had their suspicions. When they arrived at the house to tend to Sarah, they found her on the bedroom floor, just as Ryan had said. But her body was totally dry. Yeah. But her body was totally dry.

And her hair was just damp. Hmm. How could that be possible if Ryan had just found her floating face down in the tub less than six minutes earlier? Yeah. The detective continued inside to examine the scene for himself. Yeah. Less than six minutes earlier. Yeah. The detective continued inside to examine the scene for himself. He knew Ryan had pulled his wife's body from the tub as he drained it. That's what he'd said on the call.

So he expected there to be wet floors, towels everywhere, a big wet spot where Ryan had laid Sarah down on the bedroom floor and performed CPR. Except there was none of that. There was no big wet spot on the bedroom floor and performed CPR, except there was none of that. There was no big wet spot on the bedroom floor, just some staining from bodily fluids, which is common in a resuscitation attempt after a drowning. And the bathroom was completely dry. The floor was dry. The bath mats were dry. The floor was dry. The bath mats were dry. And with the exception of some water droplets around the drain, the tub was dry. Wow.

Detective Braley then looked around for a stack of wet towels. Maybe Ryan had cleaned up the water after the paramedics had arrived. Right. But not a single wet towel was found. Maybe Ryan had cleaned up the water after the paramedics had arrived. Right. But not a single wet towel was found. Then he saw what he thought might be the clearest evidence that something was off at this supposed accidental drowning. Along the edge of the tub were bottles kind of like lined up, soaps, bubble bath, shampoo, whatever. And there they still stood, perfectly lined up.

How had Ryan managed to wrangle his wife, who was supposedly wet and therefore would be slippery. Yeah. Out of the tub and carry her out of the bathroom without disturbing any of those bottles. In this detective's mind, they should have been knocked over. They should have been pushed out of the way. And they were perfectly lined up on the edge of the tub. So he called in the crime scene investigation techs and had them like run like do a full like scene processing because he was pretty sure this was not an accidental drowning. It was 2 a.m. by the time Detective Braley and the crime scene techs left the scene. And while he still didn't know exactly what had happened to Sarah in the bathroom that night, he believed it was far from accidental.

He just needed to wait for the autopsy to come back to be sure. The Warren County coroner, Dr. Russell Updegrove, performed Sarah's autopsy. He determined that the cause of death was in fact drowning, but he also found other injuries inconsistent with that manner of death. He noticed slight bruising on her forehead as well as the side of her neck. There was an abrasion under her left armpit and there was bruising and lacerations to her lips. The bigger concern for the coroner, though, was that Sarah had deep muscle hemorrhaging to the back of her neck, and there were, like, contusions on her scalp. Dr. Updegrove ruled Sarah Widmer's death a homicide. He said those injuries were not consistent with a drowning.

What were they consistent with? A beating prior to a drowning. Yeah. There was fluid in her lungs. It was clear that she had actually drowned. Yeah, but she'd been held down. Mm-hmm. Oh.

Yep. That was the. Oh. Yep. That was the coroner's ruling based on the autopsy. And so on August 13th, two days after he'd called 911 saying he'd found his face. I'm so glad he found his face. It's a terrible thing to lose. Two days after he'd found his wife face down in the tub, as it turns out, Ryan Widmer was arrested and charged with aggravated murder. Everyone was, like, shocked by this, including Sarah's family.

like shocked by this, including Sarah's family. Sarah's brother actually went to the bond hearing and asked the judge to reduce his bond so that Ryan could bond out. They did not believe that there was any chance that Ryan had any involvement in Sarah's death. They didn't know what had happened. Yeah. There was a lot of speculation about she'd been having headaches recently, had she suffered some kind of medical event and no one had known it. There was no drugs or alcohol in her system. Her toxicology report was completely clean. And this became like crazy news around town. Like it spread like every radio show was talking about it. People were calling in and saying how Ryan couldn't have had anything to do with this.

And this was a case of tunnel vision on the part of the detectives. They decided within, you know, two days of the death that this was a murder and they'd arrested him without even ever investigating it, without ever interrogating him. It was a big surprise to Ryan when he was arrested. He didn't even know that her death had been ruled suspicious at that point. So Ryan was actually able to bond out and they prepared for a trial. They thought that this would be a pretty easy defense. There was nothing, nothing in this marriage that showed that it was anything but a happy marriage. The investigators looked and looked and looked and talked to everybody who knew the couple.

talked to everybody who knew the couple, there were no money problems. There were no affairs. There was no secret temper problem that nobody knew about. It seemed that everybody who knew Ryan was like, he couldn't have done this. He's the nicest guy ever. This is weird. It's very weird.

Because there's always somebody who knows. Right? Yeah. There's always somebody who's like, mm-mm. She told me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But no.

The trial started and the prosecution put up their case. They said that Sarah had died as a result of drowning. But that wasn't what was the thing here. It was what led to that drowning. And they said that that 911 call was completely orchestrated. That she was dead long before the call. That Ryan had killed her and then orchestrated that call and faked the bath scene, faked the pulling her out of the tub, all of that to cover up the beating

that had actually killed her. And he likely held her head underwater to kill her. her head underwater to kill her. Police had dusted the bathtub for fingerprints and had turned up like a couple of weird like smear marks. But in the prosecution tried to say that this was proof that Ryan had like wiped the tub down after. But there was no way to prove when those marks were made or if who made them, if they were made by a man or made by a woman.

And they never found any evidence of anything being cleaned up. The one piece of evidence they found was a used Lysol wipe that was sitting, like, in the corner of the tub. Well, that's not really evidence. I mean— I don't think that's evidence either. No. Yeah. Well, that's not really evidence.

I mean, I don't think that's evidence either. No. Yeah. The prosecution's big points were, OK, there was nothing wet in this bathroom. Nothing at all. The scene simply does not match Ryan's story. Right. They also said that Ryan's story about watching football downstairs while Sarah was up in the bathroom didn't check out because when they turned the TV on, it wasn't on the channel that the football game was.

But the TV in the bedroom was. OK. And then there was the big thing about Sarah's body being completely dry by the time paramedics arrived. How, if he had pulled her out of the tub in like, so from the minute he placed the call to when paramedics arrived, only six and a half minutes had passed. So we know he spent 30 seconds of the call supposedly pulling her body out of the tub and setting her in the bedroom. So that leaves another approximately six minutes. How had her body completely dried in six minutes and her hair was only damp? Yeah.

Experts just said, like, it's not possible. Yeah. She could not have dried that fast. Yeah. It just doesn't make sense. It was he orchestrated a call to try and explain stains on the carpet. Maybe. The prosecution told the jury that there had been some kind of violent confrontation in the house that night, but But they admitted that they couldn't tell them why. They called in an expert.

So this is what I was telling you about before. They called in an expert who talked about the likelihood of drowning in a bathtub. And that expert said, basically, it's virtually impossible to fall asleep and drown in a bathtub unless drugs or alcohol are involved. Yeah. Because of the reasons I told you. Water hitting the face would wake you up. If that failed to wake you up, for whatever reason, if you're in a deep enough sleep, then water entering your airways would set off your gag reflex and cause you to wake up. reflex and cause you to wake up.

If somehow it got past that point, just the drop in your oxygen level would cause a person to wake up. Yeah. This expert testified that it would be virtually impossible to fall asleep in the tub and drown. The prosecution also called the coroner to talk about the findings of the autopsy and to explain what those findings meant and what his opinion was on what happened to Sarah that night.

And he testified that in order for her body to be dry, like it was found, and her hair to be damp, his belief was that she must have been pushed over the edge of the sink or the edge of the tub and her head held underwater. The prosecution said that Ryan held Sarah's head underwater until she drowned. And it was the pressure of him doing that and her fighting back against it that caused that hemorrhaging in the muscles in the back of her neck. Oh, this story is terrible. Yeah, it is. The defense completely disagreed with the prosecution's theory, though.

They said. As they are wont to do. Exactly. They said there simply was no evidence to suggest that Ryan had killed Sarah. There was no evidence to suggest that this was a homicide. Those injuries to Sarah's body. There was an explanation for them. And?

Ryan and paramedics had attempted to resuscitate her for 45 minutes. Oh. She had gone through a lot of CPR and multiple attempts to intubate her. All of those injuries were consistent with that. Well, I... Right? Yeah. Shit.

Yeah. They held their own private autopsy. Uh-huh. They had Dr. Warner Spitz... In the building. Yes! Warner Spitz in the building. Yes! Warner Spitz in the building! They had him come in the day after the coroner performed his autopsy.

They performed their own private autopsy, which sounds like a cool band name. Brandi, what do you play? What are you offering? Obviously, I play the bass. Okay. Sorry. Geez. Anyway, so they brought Dr. Spitz in to perform his own independent autopsy.

And he said, yep, absolutely. The cause of death is drowning. In his opinion, though, this was not a homicide. He could not determine that this was a homicide. If he were the coroner in this case, he would have ruled her manner of death to be undetermined. So there's a cause of death and manner of death. Right. So cause of death, drowning, manner of death was ruled homicide. Warner Spitz said.

Undetermined. Yeah. I can't say this is a homicide. Yeah. Because these injuries, they are consistent with her being pulled out of the tub. They are consistent with her being carried and laid down on the floor. They are consistent with multiple people attempting CPR on her for 45 minutes. They are consistent with someone attempting to put a breathing tube down her throat in

a moving ambulance. Wow. Okay, this is going to sound weird, but do you know anything about her hair texture? I don't. Okay. Why? Well, when you said the thing about her having her hair just being damp, I have complained many times about my dry, frizzy hair. And depending on how well I've taken care of my hair, my hair can dry really freaking fast.

You're absolutely right. The porosity of hair greatly dictates how fast hair dries. Yeah. So I'm just, I'd be very curious. But is six minutes enough time for her body to dry? I mean, I don't know. And where's the water on the floor, Kristen?

Um, I guess I'm wondering, like, when did he, what? Here's what I wonder. How much did he let the water drain out of the tub? That's exactly what I was about to say. Yes. Like, at what point did he, what? Here's what I wonder. What? How much did he let the water drain out of the tub? That's exactly what I was about to say. Yes. Like, at what point did he start draining the tub? Yeah.

And, I mean, surely he'd flipped her over. I mean, I don't know. Okay, another thing that the prosecution, and I didn't include this until now, but another thing the prosecution said is that the paramedics looked at her and said, well, she couldn't have been in the tub very long. She's not pruney. Mm-hmm. But no one knows. Like, she went up at 10 and 45 minutes had passed before Ryan went up there, or 49 minutes, whatever.

Mm-hmm. That was one of the prosecution's points. You know, she'd obviously been out of the water much longer than Ryan had let on because she wasn't pruney. But you don't know what time she got in the tub. Yeah. She could have been doing all kinds of shit in the bathroom before she actually got in the tub. Yeah, that's true. Wow, this is.

It is a tough case. This is. It is a really tough case. Oh, I hate these. Yeah. So Dr. Dr. Warner Spitz is like, can't say it's a homicide. These things. Sure.

Could they have been caused by a violent altercation? Absolutely. Yes. Can I prove that they were? No. Could they have been caused by CPR and and this the regular stuff that the paramedics did to her? Yes. Mm hmm.

Regular stuff that the paramedics did to her? Yes. The defense said that if there had been a violent altercation, as the prosecution said, that there would be evidence of it. The same stuff they were pointing out, how the bathroom was in perfect condition, the bottles weren't knocked over, all of that, that, to them, showed that there was no violent altercation in the bathroom that day. Well, that's not a bad point either. I know! Shit!

Nor were there any kind of marks on Ryan. Oh, yeah. He didn't have, he didn't have scrapes on him. They did like a scraping for DNA under Sarah sarah's fingernails there was dna under there it was female dna yeah yeah ryan didn't have any like i said scrapes on him sarah didn't have any broken or chipped nails like you would see in someone who's fighting back from being held underwater. Yeah.

Yeah. The Dateline episode is called Mystery in the Master Bedroom. Yeah. I think this is a mystery. I think it is too. I can see both sides of this. Yeah. sides of this.

Yeah. In their closing arguments, the prosecution was like, we told you what he did. You have to find him guilty. And the defense is like, listen, the prosecution says that there was a violent altercation, but they can't prove it. There's no proof of that. And we are here to tell you that there was no signs that this was anything other than a completely loving marriage. They'd only been married for four months at this point.

Like, there were no money problems. There were no affairs. They didn't uncover any big lies that anyone had been telling. Yeah. And that's what the defense, they said, there's no motive here. Ryan had nothing to gain. Yeah. From Sarah's death.

The jury deliberated and deliberated and deliberated and they were tasked with, so he was charged with aggravated murder. So they could find him guilty of aggravated murder, which means that he premeditated it. Or they could find him not guilty of aggravated murder and find him guilty of simple murder, which means that he flew into a rage and just did it in the moment.

And so if they send a note and they say they've reached a verdict and they come back and they announce that they found him not guilty of aggravated murder, but they found him guilty of the lesser charge of simple murder. Wow. So he's sentenced to the mandatory sentence of 15 years to life. But almost immediately after the verdict, affidavits came pouring into the defense attorney's office. There was major jury misconduct going on. Several jurors came forward and said there was a group of three jurors, three women who had gone home and conducted experiments to see how long it would take them to dry after they got out of the bathtub. And then they came back and told that information to the rest of the jury, which is strictly

against the rules. You can't consider anything in your verdict that was not presented to you in court. I can't say I blame him, though. I think I'd do the exact same thing. I would do the exact same thing. Yeah, I would. I'd go home. I'd get myself all,

that was about to sound filthy dirty. Lubed up. I'd get completely wet. Yeah. And then I'd lay on the carpet and see, number one, does my body dry faster than my hair? Of course it does.

Does it dry in six minutes? I don't think so. I don't think it does. I don't know. Probably not. Probably not. I don't know. That seems too fast. It seems fast. Yeah. It seems really fast. I don't know. Maybe there was a ceiling fan on in there. You know, in my bedroom, our ceiling fan constantly on, tower fan constantly on. Maybe if I happen to be laid down directly under the ceiling fan and in front of the tower fan, maybe I do dry off in six minutes. I have questions. Why do you have two fans? Because I need the air circulating in there. I need circulation. I wish you all could see Brandy's hand tornadoes she made. Can't have just dead air. No, I can't.

I can't handle it. I can't handle when air is stagnant in my bedroom. You know, it's at the back of my house. And so I got to get. Things get real stanky in there. It gets stagnant. It gets stale. Uh-huh.

You got to have the fans blowing, Kristen. Okay. Okay. I understand. You've got to have the fans blowing, Kristen. Okay. I understand. I mean, I don't really. I have maximum one fan per room. I've never dreamed of adding another. I guarantee you people will be like, I sleep with three fans on. Well, yeah, there's always

a freak out there. I used to sleep with three fans on. No, you didn't. Yeah, I also had a third fan blew directly on my face. How hot do you get when you sleep? I don't actually get that hot. I sleep with a down comforter and I sleep like all bundled up in it. Okay. What?

There's something about having like a fan blow on you, like cool air, like right in your hair. I don't know. It's like nostalgic to me. It reminds me of being a little kid like on a camping trip or something. And so I sleep really good like that. Okay. That's kind of sweet. Thank you.

Yeah. All right. All right. So this word of jury misconduct comes in. They take it to the judge. The defense attorneys take these affidavits to the judge. And the judge is like, well, fuck, yeah. That's a problem.

That's not how a judge talks. That's exactly how he talks. And so a new trial was ordered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the acquittal on the aggravated murder charge stood. And so now they could only charge him. They could only try him again for the crime which he was found guilty of, which is like the simple murder.

No premeditation. Why did that stand? Because they technically acquitted him of that and found him guilty of. So they limited the misconduct just to the simple murder. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I don't know.

You don't like it? I mean, not really. Because surely those experiments were a factor. I would think so. Yeah. All right. Okay. Continue.

So a second trial took place in May of 2010. Pretty much the same exact circumstance as the first one. They laid out the same evidence. Blah, blah, blah. They tried to... The defense tried to step it up a notch. Like, bam, Emeril. You know, how he'd throw a little spice on it and go, bam. Well, I mean, no one knows better than you. You were

obsessed with Emeril. I was obsessed with Emeril Lagasse. You were so obsessed. I was obsessed with Emeril Lagasse. I was. I'm not going to deny it, Kristen. You couldn't deny it. Your eyes lit up right before me. So the one thing that the defense tried to do that they hadn't really done in the beginning was they tried to poke more holes in the experts version of the of the autopsy, I guess. Like, OK, yeah, you you're saying 100 this is a homicide

these are the reasons that it shouldn't have been ruled a homicide whatever yeah the jurors got the case and they deliberated and they deliberated and they deliberated more than 30 hours went by and then they sent a note. They were deadlocked. Shit. They couldn't reach a verdict. A mistrial was declared. Ugh. So in January of 2011,

Ryan Widmer stood trial a third time for the murder of his wife, Sarah. I can't believe they didn't just let this one go. I am shocked, too. Yeah. I am shocked, too. But here's why they didn't.

Why? Because the prosecution had uncovered new evidence. A witness. Really? Oh, yeah. Was it the Kool-Aid guy? Why'd you say it like that? He came into the, he broke through the walls of the courtroom.

The jury got dust all over them. It was a mess. No. This witness for the prosecution, her name was Jennifer Crew. She had befriended Ryan. She'd reached out to him, started writing letters after seeing his story on Dateline. They'd become super close. They talked all the time.

Just platonically, calm down. I see your eyebrows, Kristen. They're beautiful, aren't they? And she had always believed in Ryan's innocence. Yeah of course she did. He was a wrongfully accused man. Yeah.

She was in love with him. Until October 26 2009 when Ryan called and confessed to murdering Sarah. Does she have this recorded? No, no. She just has some notes that she took down. So Jennifer Crew gets on the stand and she says that on October 26, 2009, at 11.06 p.m.,

she got a call from Ryan that lasted an hour to an hour and a half. In it, he was drunk and he confessed to murdering Sarah. He said, I did it. I did it. I killed Sarah. I did it. And Jennifer testified that Ryan then told her that he had fought with Sarah in the living room of their home that night. She had accused him of cheating.

She had said that she was tired of his drinking and his smoking and his obsession with pornography, and that she was done with him. She was going to leave. And Ryan said, him. She was going to leave. And Ryan said, nobody leaves me. Nobody ever leaves me. And I mean nobody. And then Jennifer testified that Ryan told her that he punched Sarah in the chest, which caused her to fall back and hit her head. Then he blacked out, and when he came to, Sarah was on the bathroom floor. She wasn't breathing, and her hair was wet. Jennifer then testified that Ryan told her that he only pretended to administer CPR during the 911 call because he knew there was no point.

Sarah was already dead. Pretty damning testimony. I don't know. What's her deal? It doesn't match any evidence. There's no evidence that matches it. Yeah. There's actually proof that the call didn't happen when she said it did. There's proof that the call didn't last as long as she said it did. She continued to talk with him following this confession and only gave this account of the confession like right before the third trial began, which was in 2011, two years after this call allegedly took place.

Yeah, this is weird. Yeah. The defense was able to attack her credibility. She had, they presented all that evidence that said, here's your phone records that show this call did not take place when you said it did. Here's, you know, here's these discrepancies. Here's proof that you sent gifts to Ryan following this confession when you said all you're terrified of him now. It did not look good for the prosecution at all. The defense was really able to pull her story apart.

But what it did was give somebody on the stand giving some kind of narrative to what took place in the house that night. But nobody else could back up any of those claims that there was ever any fights about any belief that Ryan was cheating. The prosecution, the investigators searched for an affair and never found one. Yeah. I mean, just none of this could be backed up with any other proof beyond what this woman said. And that was the defense's take on this. Like, just tear her down and show that she's not credible. The other new tactic that they had not used before this trial was to introduce evidence that maybe Sarah was suffering from an undiagnosed medical condition.

They put on a couple of friends on the stand who said Sarah fell asleep all over the place. It was a joke. Wow. All of the time. Like, Sarah, don't fall asleep at the place. It was a joke. Wow. All of the time. Like, Sarah, don't fall asleep at the table. They played a video. Okay. To be fair, I don't know that they played the video at trial, but they mentioned the video on the Dateline episode.

There's a video of Sarah at a family Christmas get together. It's loud. There's people everywhere. There's kids running around. And Sarah is asleep in a chair in the middle of it Wow heard the dentist that she worked for testified that she would take her lunch break she would eat for like the first five minutes of it she'd eat her lunch real fast and then she'd go take a 30 minute nap in her car. Wow. Yes. These are extremely unusual things for a 24 year old woman. Yeah. Her friends joked about her having narcolepsy. Oh, that is how often she fell asleep in odd places. Wow. She also, several people were brought to the stand to testify that she was constantly complaining about headaches.

She was having these really bad headaches. Her friend, her best friend, the one that had set her up with Ryan, was a nurse and was like, you have to go get this checked out. This could be a blood pressure issue. This could be, you could have a blood clot. Like, this could be a very serious thing. You need to get this checked out. Yeah. To combat this, the prosecution put Sarah's mom on the stand, who at this point, their opinion of Ryan had changed completely.

They now believed that Ryan was responsible for Sarah's death. And she testified that she didn't know about any of that. She had no knowledge that Sarah was having any kind of medical issues. She certainly had never seen her fall asleep anywhere weird. Imagine you're a juror. Whose testimony are you going to take more seriously? Or who are you going to put more stake in? The mom or the friends?

That would be really difficult. Well, it's not just friends. It's friends and coworkers. That's true. I honestly might put more stake for something like this in friends and coworkers because they're more – I think they're less likely to be affected by emotion. Yeah. And more likely to just say, this is what I witnessed. We saw her fall asleep all the time.

No warning. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. It'd be tough, though. It would also depend a lot on just hearing them. Yeah. I agree.

Yeah. I agree. I don't know. I think it's so tough because you're getting evidence like very contradictory evidence. As a juror, I think this would be a super tough case. In closing arguments, the defense asked the jury to look at all of the facts, all of the surrounding evidence, not just the expert testimony about the autopsy. Look at everything. Look at the fact that there were no problems in the marriage except for what this one woman

is saying. Like, look at the whole picture. Ryan had no reason to hurt Sarah. And the thing that the woman said about the punching in the chest, there was no evidence of a blow to the chest. Although there might not be if she was receiving CPR, because anything that would be around her chest would be deemed related to that, right? Yeah. I don't know. I think it's a super fucking tough case.

I think you've got to cut him loose. I agree. I don't think there's enough. I think there's too much reasonable doubt. Yeah, yeah. The jury deliberated. And they found Ryan guilty of murder. Wow.

And he was sentenced to 15 years to life, the mandatory sentence. Wow. Yeah. I think there's too much doubt. A couple of jurors came out afterwards and said it wasn't any one particular piece of evidence that convinced them of his guilt. It was his reaction to the autopsy photos. What was his reaction? He had no reaction.

Well, OK, it's the first of all, this is the third trial. Yeah. He's not seeing them for the first time. Yeah. This has been going on and on and on. Yeah. That blows my mind. Oh.

That is what it came down to. His reaction to the autopsy photos. Shit. I hate that. I hate it too. Yeah. So he has appealed his conviction, but basically he's down to his last habeas corpus appeal and it's been submitted.

But those, I mean, take forever if you ever hear back on them. Yeah, absolutely. In 2018, Ryan's twin brother, Iron. Oh, no. Oh, no. That's terrible. It's really bad. That should be against the law.

It should be against the law. Terrible. It's really bad. That should be against the law. It should be against the law. Contacted the TV show Reasonable Doubt, which is an, this will surprise no one, it's an investigation discovery show, and asked them to look into the case. So this is a show where they bring in like two independent detectives and they look into all the aspects of the case and they make a determination on whether they think there's reasonable doubt.

This is what I love about the ID shows. They tell you exactly what's going to happen. And so they did. These two investigators came in and they looked at all this stuff. They interviewed Ryan. They looked at all the different pieces, all the stuff from all the trials. And their determination was that Ryan was lying.

Really? They didn't believe him. Why? They thought that he changed his story from the initial 911 call too many times. They believed that he was lying. He wasn't being truthful about what happened in the house that night.

And they believed he's responsible for Sarah's death. Wow. I think it's possible that he's responsible for Sarah's death. Of course it is. I think that there is way too much reasonable doubt here for him to be convicted of murder. I agree. That scares the shit out of me. Yeah.

He, before the third trial, the prosecution approached him to take a deal. Oh, no. They would plea him down to manslaughter and he'd be out of prison in five years. And he wouldn't take the deal, saying he would not plead guilty to something he didn't do. And that's the mysterious death of Sarah Widmer. This is a very polarizing case. People believe one way or the other pretty strongly. Yeah, yeah.

I don't, I am torn about what I believe. I think that there are definite inconsistencies in the scene yeah there should have been fucking water everywhere if it happened the way he said it yeah absolutely um but i don't think there's enough proof to convict him of murder i don't think so either okay i gotta i gotta look her up. Between his mistrial and his third trial, he actually met a woman and fathered a baby with her. Oh, OK. So he has a son. Which people tried to turn into this big thing about how much could he miss wife if if he's out there banging some lady while

he's on trial for her murder okay well this is yeah this has gone on for a long time now well and even if he did move on quickly that's still not not proof yeah i don't know i i have like i said i think it's entirely possible that he is responsible for Sarah Widmer's death. I do not think there is enough evidence that he should have been convicted. Okay. I'm looking at her hair and it looks like it's bleached blonde. Exactly.

Which would. Porosity issues. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. You're going to conduct your own experiment tonight to see how long your body takes to dry? No, because that sounds really annoying. I agree. But, oh, that's a tough one. It is so tough. Hate it. It is so tough. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't.

I think the prosecution took a real gamble putting that Jennifer Cruz woman on the stand. I don't know why they would have done that. Desperation. Well, yeah. Yeah. That's all it is, right? Yeah. But I think that very quickly could have gone the other way.

Yeah. And cost them the case. But I don't know. the other way. Yeah. And cost them the case. But I don't know. I really struggle with this one because I don't think there's enough evidence that he should have been convicted.

Yeah. That does not mean that I think he's innocent. You're worried about people coming for you. I'm just saying this is an often talked about case. Yeah.

I am not sure where I land on that. Yeah. I think it's very possible that he's responsible for her death. Sure. I don't think there's enough evidence to convict him, though. I agree completely. Yeah.

Hmm. Hmm. You still thinking about that case I did? No. Just got to be honest. Thinking about my dog. Of course you are. Of course you are.

Well, shall we move on to questions from the Discord? Of course. Let's do it. To get in the Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level. That gets you one bonus episode per month and into the Discord to chitty chat the day away with us. Or if you're feeling like a baller, you can jump in at the $7 level.

That gives you all of that. Plus, you get a card with our autographs and a sticker. And you get a bonus. A bonus, that's a new word. A bonus video every month. And then. Then what happens? There's the Bob Moss level.

Tell us all about it. That's the Richie Rich level. It's $10 a month. You get all that stuff I just talked about. Plus you get episodes ad free and a day early and. And. 10% off on merch. Woo! Okay.

Ooh, Devin Quinn asks, side part versus middle part debate. Please tell me not everyone looks good with the middle part. You're absolutely correct. A middle part is not for everyone. You stick to your side part. That is just fine. Tell them why, Brandi. It flattens the face and it can make the face look rounder if you don't have the right face shape.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. Way to tell people that there's a wrong face shape to have. No, I'm just saying a middle part is not for everyone. I know. It's cute with the curtain bangs. Very on trend right now.

I'm not wearing it. I look terrible with it. Have you tried it? Yes. Oh, you have? I mean, just like when I'm combing it out after the shower, and it looks terrible. And you know what? A lot of people don't have an option to change their part.

They have a really, you know, set-in natural part. Oh, really? Yeah. I have a natural part. Huh. That's a legit thing, Kristen. Okay. Well, I would not question you on that.

Don't question me. I can only imagine that this question is for you, Kristen, because I don't understand most of the words in it. Fudge Dragon would like to know what 90 Day Fiance star should be on Making the Team. Is there anybody who could do a crossover? Oh, Julia, for sure. Very good. I was about to say, no, there wouldn't be. But Julia, I think she could do it.

She's a former go-go dancer. Maybe this is Mel Bell, M3, El Bell. I'm guessing the three is supposed to be like an E backwards. Yeah, okay. She asks, if you could live in any decade, which would it be and why? I would pick the 50s because the dresses were the best. I don't know. I feel like I always become a real bummer when I answer.

Well, yeah, because then you bring in, like, obviously the oppression. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but that's what my mind goes to it's like well am i staying a woman um am i staying white like because i'm not going to like i love the 50s dresses but i'm not going to the 50s yeah sorry i'm such a bummer on that question oh carlos the serial killer oh my. People are so quick to change these names. Carlos the Serial Killer says, being in the Midwest, I yearn to try fast food places. What restaurant do you wish you had in your area?

Mine is In-N-Out. They actually just opened an In-N-Out here in Kansas City. Overrated. Yeah, I'm not into it. Mine is Whataburger, which we are reportedly getting. Norman, I feel like he's checking up on that every five minutes. And he is pissed that it's not going to be super close to the house. But yeah, Whataburger is delicious.

I am very much looking forward to that. I can't wait for Whataburger. Okay. I want to know your answer to this question. Okay. I didn't write this down. Asks, if you started a charity, what would it be for? Ooh, i would do

alzheimer's research wow research research maybe you should research because i make fun of a perfectly good charity that's what my charity would be for because my family has been greatly affected by Alzheimer's. Yeah. Yeah. It's my biggest fear. And, yeah, I think that some good funding for research would be great. Shout out to the Alzheimer's Association.

Because, I don't know if you know this, Alzheimer's sucks. It does suck. Yeah. Yes. We talked about that on an episode. We do. Both of our families have been affected by it. Ooh, Bob Moss for Life says, our HOA is losing their shit over painted brick.

All I can think of is that crazy case when you all first got started. So painted brick, yay or nay. I think painted brick can look good. It can also look really shitty. You have to do it the right way. I get weird about the age of the home. Yeah, I know. Because you're into, you know, keeping the original charm and all that.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you live in a historical home. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm not taking out the original tiles. I'm not doing any of that. If anything, we're trying to take it back to what it once was. Yeah.

But yeah, like I say that. Okay. Let's talk about like a home that was built in the 70s and has that like really orangey brick on the outside. I can tell you right now, our first place was a home that was built in the 80s. And it had just really ugly brick in the basement. Yeah. And it was like, it felt terrible to do it. And my dad was like, don't do it, don't do it.

And Norm was like, no, don't. But then I did it and it looked so much better. Yeah. So I just think it depends. Yeah. And I realized the irony of like, I'm like, oh, keep it historic. And I sure am glad that no one came into this house in the 1940s and took out the tile. So, you know.

Absolutely. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Josh P. asks, should I change my name to Blistered Butthole? I'm conflicted because I want to appear professional, but I also want everyone to know I'm cool. Absolutely. Change it away.

You'll be the most professional Blistered butthole in all the land. Oh, Lil Pink Kristen. This is an easy one. Lil Pink Kristen asks, if you were the subject of a true crime court case, who would you want to report your story? Skip Hollingsworth, Keith Morrison, someone else. Keith Morrison all the way. No, Skip Hollingsworth. No!

Yes! I love Skip Hollingsworth. I want Keith Morrison. Listen. Dateline. They only have a certain amount of time to tell the story. They rely on a lot of tropes. You're right.

You're right. Skip Hollingsworth, he goes in deep and he... I'll tell him you said that. He gets all the research done. He really doesn't seem to rely on, you know, it was the perfect life. Excuse me.

Just take a step back on my man Keith Morrison. I want Keith Morrison. You're not going to change my mind. Okay. Just take a step back on my man Keith Morrison. I want Keith Morrison. You're not going to change my mind. Okay. You take Skip Hollinsworth all day long. All right. I will.

Fine. I will. He'll do a six-part podcast about you. Good. And so will Keith Morrison. It'll be the thing about Brandy. Oh, God. I don't think you want that.

I don't think you want that. You have to be really bad to get your own podcast done by Keith Morrison. I thought you were going to be the victim. Freakshow? I'm guessing there's three X's in place of a K. Ooh. Yes. Asks, desperate hair question.

I deal with really bad dandruff and I have black hair and wear black clothes, so super noticeable. Any tips? I'm willing to try anything. Okay. Without seeing it, I think it's very likely you don't have dandruff. You have dry scalp. You have irritated scalp. And so a lot of people use dandruff shampoo, which just dries that out more. What you need is a tea tree shampoo. that's going to get the blood flowing. It's going to get the

scalp all moisturized. So I would say try out a tea tree shampoo, even do a scalp treatment, get some get some moisture to that scalp. How about olive oil all over the scalp? I mean, that's just good luck getting that out of your hair. Thank you. I appreciate that. You know, J-Lo says that her skin looks the way it does because of olive oil. Yeah. And she says, stop asking her.

No, she has not gotten Botox. Do you think that's true? No. I don't either. I think that's fucking crazy is what I think. I like J-Lo a lot, but don't you dare lie to us. I love J-Lo. Yeah.

I think J-Lo is amazing. Yeah. I do too. Yeah. But just say you had the Botox. Right. Yeah. Or a facelift or whatever.

Because like there's no. How is it still that taut? It's my skin's not that taut. And I'm. Exactly. 15 years younger than her at least. How old is she? 50?

Yeah, something. She's something. She's some age. She's some age. But yeah, she just looks way too damn good for that to be natural. Yeah, she's 51. Yeah. Yeah.

No. That's not olive oil. Oh, MB wants to know, Brandy, would you rather binge a whole season of 90 day fiance or research art heist for the next episode okay i'm gonna change that a little okay i'm gonna make it so you have to oh my god you guys should see her face right now okay a whole season of 90 day fiance okay keep in mind these episodes are super long it's a real-time commitment or i'm gonna say four art heists in a row oh i'd rather watch the show okay three art heists in a row oh i'd still watch the show do you really hate art heists that much yeah they're so exciting no here's the thing

is that that would take me so long long because I would lose so much interest. Uh-huh. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I would choose two art heists over a season of 90 Day Fiancé. What a hater. But I wouldn't be excited about it.

Would you walk into each episode like it was a funeral? Yeah, I would. Ooh. Ooh. DeVry Law School asks, would you rather be given $1 billion, but you can't tell anyone you have it, not even your spouse or closest friends, Tell anyone you have it, not even your spouse or closest friends, or be given $1 million, and you have to tell literally everyone you know and meet in the future that you have it. Oh, God, so everyone thinks you're an asshole, too.

Yes. Hi, I'm Kristen. I have a million dollars. Oh. How do you not tell your spouse? Exactly. Yeah, how do you not tell exactly that yeah how do you not i mean you'd have to give it away yeah give it away give it away give it away now i can't believe i i stopped myself from saying that and then i saw your eyes light up yeah i mean yeah how how would you even do that because my first thing is i i would want to pay off the house, and Norman would naturally be like, How'd you pay off the house?

You're like, I don't know. Just a mystery. Don't ask questions. And I feel like he would continue to ask me questions. It's a real pain in the scunch. He's always up in my business. Yeah, I think it would be impossible for no one to know. You could not keep the money and have no one know.

No. Yeah. I also don't want to tell everybody that I have a million dollars. No. Part of it, I mean, yeah, it doesn't seem, it's, oh, God. There's problems on all kinds of levels. I mean, are we talking like at the grocery store? I'm checking out and I'm like, by the way, I have a million dollars.

Literally everyone you know and meet in the future. Yeah, I'm terrible. Terrible. Oh, my God. This question is obviously for you. Crassy Crass wants to know, what's your favorite Ron Popeil merch? The Showtime rotisserie oven, obviously. What do you mean? is obviously for you. Crassy Crass wants to know, what's your favorite Ron Popeil merch? Ooh. Ooh.

The Showtime rotisserie oven, obviously. What do you mean, obviously? Obviously. You said it and forget it. We had one when I was a kid. Did you really? Yeah, we never used it. Well, I mean, yeah.

How often do you roast a chicken? Realistically, I think there's got to be problems with that. Didn't people's houses burn down? Because you can't just turn on a rotisserie oven and then leave. Well, the other thing, and I mean, you can get them from the grocery store, and they're really good. Five dollars! Yeah, they're really good. I think there are certain things where, like, you shouldn't attempt it at home.

Right. You know, if they're cheap and good at the grocery store, just go that route. Exactly. Outraged asks, does this young moose make you smile? I took this picture yesterday. I love this young moose. It's beautiful. It's so beautiful.

I'm so jealous that you live somewhere that you saw this little baby moose one time. Oh, yeah? Yeah. It's actually kind of a funny story. Okay, let's hear it. It's not that funny. Well, you're laughing. So it was five years ago, probably. Casey and I decided to drive to Idaho to visit my grandmother,

who lives in Idaho. And it's like a ridiculously long drive, like 17 hours or something. We did the drive there in two days, and then we spent a couple days with her, and then we decided we were going to drive back in one day. Oh, God, that sounds terrible. Super early. And so we're driving through, I don't know, the mountains fucking somewhere. Yeah.

Really early in the morning. We're the only car on the road. And there was this baby moose walking down the highway. And it was just walking, just walking, not a care in the world. And then it saw our car. And, like, it was, like, it snapped out of, like, its little days. And it was, like, holy shit, there's people around. And it literally, like, was just walking down the road and then it, like, made a sharp turn and ran into, like, into the woods next to the road.

It was really funny. Not like, I guess you had to be there. I think you did have to be there. Okay, speaking of moose stories where maybe you had to be there. One time we took Peanut to Colorado. It was a big family trip. And you know Peanut. She would bark, but she was actually a wimp.

Yeah. And she was especially wimpy about anything bigger than her. And one time, I can't remember who was letting her out to go pee, but someone let her out and there was a fucking moose out there oh my gosh and peanut tried barking and being tough and of course the moose didn't know didn't move the moose didn't do anything and so peanut was trying to stand her ground but also she was afraid so she kept like trying to scoop back without actually losing ground anyway sweet. Oh, sweet peanut. That's the brave peanut story. Oh, my gosh. I love it. Peanut in the mousse. I love it so much.

What a good dog. Oh, this is a good question. Okay. That's Tova with a V. Says, you have to dress up in clothes and have your hair done like you did in high school. Oh, my God. What would you look like? Oh, my, my God. What would you look like? Oh, my God.

Okay. What would you do? Okay. I wore a lot of band t-shirts. Uh-huh. And a lot of studded belts. Yep. And I had long, very straight, blonde, heavily highlighted hair.

Yeah. And I wore very thick eyeliner, way thicker than I wear. You had to let people know exactly where your eyes were. Yes. Uh-huh. And I wore skateboard shoes. Yeah. And my jeans, it was like boot cut jeans.

Right. But then skateboard shoes are so big. They're like, I don't know they're like little balloons for your feet basically you had to slit the inside of the jean so that it would fit down around the shoe and then you stepped on

the backs of the jeans and so the jeans were all like chewed up in the back from walking on them that's what I'd have to that's what I'd be wearing. It made sense because you skated so much. I was a hardcore skateboarder. I was super into, I treat, like, especially senior year, I treated it like, I treated high school like it was sex in the city.

I wore high heels everywhere. I was always very dressed up. I loved it. I was always very dressed up. I loved it. I loved having so much fun. And I wore a lot of like kind of 1950s-ish style dresses. And I tried to straighten my hair. But, you know, straighteners have come a long way, baby. They've come a long way, yeah.

Through the hard times and the good. I've got to celebrate you, baby. You've come a long way, yeah. Through the hard times and the good. I've got to celebrate you, baby. Praise you. Yeah, I mean, we talked about it on, like, the first episode of the podcast that straighteners used to be. They were huge. Like these big pancake things. Turns out they needed to be smaller. We didn't know it at the time.

We did not know it. I also didn't have the money to buy a good straightener, so I bought one that every time I ran it through my hair, it would take hair out. Ripped out pieces? Yes. I had the black Revlon straightener that I feel like everybody on the planet had. Yes. Yes. And that killed my hair.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Someone changed their name to Birthday Meat. Oh, it's Blue Orchid. Oh, that's, I'm about to take a question for Birthday Meat. Okay, Birthday Meat asks, ladies, what are some of your favorite cover songs? Okay. Oh, I've got a lot.

No, I do not care less about this question. I have Oh, I've got a lot. No. I care less about this question. I have one that I think is the best and this was not intentional birthday meet. I swear I know

you're Australian and this happens to be an Australian band who does this cover. The song is No Diggity and the cover is done

by Chet Faker. Oh, it's so good. It's this like kind of like electronic, like alternative version. It like really slows it down. Oh, so good. Okay. You know, you know, you're familiar with No Diggity.

No doubt. Anyway, No Diggity by Chet Faker. My favorite cover. Very good. Should we move on to Supreme Court Inductions? We absolutely should. All right. This week, we are continuing to read your favorite cookies.

Jill Davis. Homemade vegan peanut butter. All right. Sarah Law. Anzac biscuits. People really, really coming out strong this week. Jessica Appleton M&M Cookies with my secret ingredient Ashley L

Oatmeal Chocolate Chip Amanda Zarate Mexican Wedding Cookie Randy Traylor Homemade Chocolate Chip Elise LaRocque Potbelly Sugar Cookie Shannon Homan

One Day Old Insomnia chocolate chip cookies. Oh, very specific. That is very specific. V Brown. Snickerdoodles and Brandy's cookie that she will soon be sharing. I will soon be sharing it. Issa Hernandez. Undercooked chocolate chip.

Tony Carlone. Peanut butter pinwheels. Kara Schlicker. Chocolate chip peanut butter. Tony Carlone. Peanut butter pinwheels. Kara Schlicker. Chocolate chip peanut butter. Danielle McCants. French macaroons. Mmm. Oh, no.

Justin Sprague. S'mores cookies. Becca Port. Molasses cookies. Angela Rowe. Dark chocolate hobnobs. What's a hobnob? I have no idea

you know what it sounds like? hobnobbing? sounds like a what? you about to ruin this person's favorite cookie it sounds like Bilbo's penis what? a hobbit's knob

like a hobnob oh god oh no oh why would you how could you sorry Angela Oh, why would you? How could you? Sorry, Angela. Good luck enjoying those from now on.

Sarah K. Brown sugar salted caramel snickerdoodles. That sounds amazing. Amanda Garso. Gingerbread. Shanna. Macadamia nut. Raven Harris. Snickerdoodles. Amber Baxter. Welcome to the Supreme Court!

Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. On Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating, leave us a review, and then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast... Oh, fuck, I'm on two whole new topics. Podcast. Oh, fuck. I'm sorry.

That's okay. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the Dateline episode, The Mystery in the Master Bedroom, ChillingCrimes.com, The Springfield News Sun, and Cincinnati.com.

For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCPodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours. But please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.