Let's Go To Court! - 162: Undercover Mother & Another Bathtub Murder?

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

Mark Fisher just wanted to have a little fun. That’s why the 19-year-old college sophomore headed into New York City with his friends. While they were out drinking, Mark ran into another friend, and by the end of the night, he found himself at a house party in Brooklyn, surrounded by mostly strangers. The next morning, Mark’s body was discovered just two blocks from the house party. He’d been beaten and shot. When investigators tried to speak with the people Mark had partied with that night, they clammed up. But over time, police came to suspect John Giuca, who’d thrown the party, and his friend, 17-year-old Antonio Russo. Then Brandi tells us about yet another questionable bathtub murder. When Michele Somers’ family first met Martin MacNeil, they knew something was up. They couldn’t quite put their finger on it, but something about Martin seemed sketchy. But Michele was under Martin’s spell. They eloped in 1978, and aside from Martin’s six month jail stint for forgery, the couple had what appeared to be a healthy marriage. They raised four children, then adopted more. Martin got a medical degree and a law degree. They prospered. But after several decades of marriage, Michele became suspicious of Martin and unhappy with her appearance. Martin suggested she get a facelift.   And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Undercover Mother” episode of 20/20 “Mother Justice” by Christopher Ketcham for Vanity Fair “A murder, a conviction, and a never-ending case,” by Alan Feuer for The New York Times “Second suspect is charged in 2003 murder of student,” by Michael Wilson for The New York Times “Citing misconduct, lawyer seeks review of conviction in ‘03 Brooklyn killing,” by Vivian Yee for The New York Times In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Martin MacNeill: Was his wife Michele's death accidental or was it murder?” by Sara Lenz and Brian West, Desert News “Martin MacNeill timeline” by Brian West, Desert News “Secrets in Pleasant Grove” episode Dateline “Utah doctor's life of lies unravels after some of his children are convinced he murdered their mother” by Allie Yang, ABC News “Murder of Michele MacNeill” wikipedia.org    YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

Get ready to experience an all-new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500, and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. Don Valley North, Don Valley North Lexus. And save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models.

A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about an undercover mother.

And I'll be telling you about another bathtub murder. Are you obsessed? I might be. Did you find some weird ID show that's like Bathtub Murder. Yeah. Five seasons of bathtub murders. You weirdo. I, uh, yeah. No, I am enjoying.

I have another one that I might do after this one. Are you serious? Yeah. Will you ever take, wait, do you take baths? No. Oh, I do. I know you do. You love the bath.

I am not a bath person. Well, you didn't have to give me such a judgmental one. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. If I had like a big bathtub like you, I might take one. You have a nice big bathtub. I sure do. Not to brag to the people, but. I just have like a big bathtub like you, I might take one. You have a nice big bathtub. I sure do. Not to brag to the people, but.

I just have like your standard bathtub. So there's nothing like spa-like or luxurious about it. Yeah, no. I'm just going to be wedged in there. Sitting in a pool of your own filth. That's exactly right. All right. Yeah.

If I had like a big jetted tub where I was going to get the bubbles going, I could maybe get behind that. You should get in it. That's the comedy people come here for. People say I am quite witty. Guess what? What? I have a caseitty. Guess what? What? I have a case today. Ooh!

Yep. You thought you could tear me down. Jesus. It wasn't that I was grieving the death of my beloved dog. It was that Brandy didn't want me to tell cases. That's exactly what it was, guys. And that's the drama of this podcast. No, thank you to everybody who's been so kind about peanut.

Yeah. We appreciate it. Yeah. Want to talk about the weather that we've been experiencing here? Norm's going to leave me because of this weather. It has been, I don't know, what was it last night? Or the night before last? It was negative, like, 14?

11 billion. Yeah, it was terrible. It has been terrible. I've been wearing two pairs of pants everywhere. It has just, like, snowed every day. Yeah. It's supposed to be 50 next week, so. All right.

I think spring is right around the corner. All right. Like, I'll spring is right around the corner. All right. You're like, I'll believe it when I see it. Yeah. No, Norm's big thing is why do we live here? Why would anyone choose to live here? Yeah.

It's really uncomfortable because I'm the reason he's here. You are the reason he lives here. And I have to remind him how beautiful I am. Kristen, how's your belly? Full of delicious chocolate chip cookies? It sure is. Thank you for asking. We just filmed the bonus video. What?

Out soon to our patrons at the Supreme Court level. Yeah, in that video, Brandi reveals her secret recipe. Secret cookie recipe. It's so, so good. Ugh, the cookies are delicious. I'm telling you, I'm feeling like people are going to be let down by the secret. No, they won't. If they try

the cookie, if they make it according to your recipe, they will be like, holy shit, this is a game changer. Okay, alright. Alright! Don't let your to your recipe, they will be like, holy shit, this is a game changer. Okay. All right. All right. Don't let your self-esteem issues get in the way of this. People are going to be delighted. Damn it.

I don't know. What are people going to do? Like throw fucking tomatoes at me? I don't know what I'm worried about. I don't know. I don't know, man. But if you sign up on Patreon at that level, you also get a monthly bonus video. I'm sorry.

In addition to the bonus video, you get a bonus video. Hey, did you know that? Also, bonus episodes. Hey. Hey. Hey. We have 19 bonus episodes currently on our Patreon. My goodness.

You could listen to one a day for 19 days. 19 days. 20 coming soon. Oh could listen to one a day for 19 days. That's 20 coming soon. Oh. Coming soon to a Patreon near you. That's ours. If there was confusion there. And at the $10 level,

you get all your episodes ad-free and a day early. What? That's right. You know what would make it better? What? If we had like a discount on merch. Oh my God, day early. What? That's right. You know what would make it better? What? If we had like a discount on merch.

Oh my God, we do. 10% off. Woo! Practically giving stuff away. Oh, the deals, deals, deals. And it's changed to 90%. We'll make you an offer you can't refuse. You pay 90% of what we want.

Got him there. No one can say no to that. That's right. Alright, are you ready for this? I am ready to talk about an undercover mother. Midnight fantasy. Undercover angel. Oh, okay. I was going to say

that sounds sexy. Do you know this case? Not based on that. This seems like a brandy case. Ooh, I'm excited. I'm intrigued. Okay. Okay.

So first of all, shout outs to the Undercover Mother episode of 2020. You didn't coin that term yourself, huh? Neither did they. So let's all be cool. A Vanity Fair article called Mother Justice by Christopher Ketchum. And then a bunch of stuff in the New York Times and just a sprinkling from Wikipedia. Oh, let me lube up the lips here. I'm doing Salt Bae.

And you're ignoring it. That's right. Sometimes you need to be ignored. I will not be ignored, Kristen. I'm going to boil your rabbit. Oh, God. The one movie I did see. All right.

It was October of 2003 in New York City. New York City. New York City. That's right. It was October of 2003 in New York City. New York City! New York City! That's right. People have commented that I sound like the old men from the old salsa commercials when I say New York City. And it's true. It is true. And 19-year-old Mark Fisher was in the city hanging out with friends. He was from, did they call it Andover, New Jersey? They have a silent D in

there, right? Andover? I have no idea. I don't know. New Jersey, let us know. Do you got that silent D? Oh, they'll let us know. And he was a sophomore at Fairfield University in Connecticut. Silent F. Ariel University. And the dude was a stud. He was 6'5", and he played a sport called football. Oh! And he was very good looking. He and his friends... How good looking was he? I mean, I don't want to objectify the poor boy, but...

He was good looking? Very good looking. Okay. I mean, how many verys do Iify the poor boy, but he's very good looking. I mean, how many verys do I have to put in here? Very good looking. All right. He looked kind of like Carlos from... No, he didn't look like a creep from Dream Phone. He looked like if Gaston from Beauty and the Beast was a real man.

That's kind of, yeah. You were into Gaston. I sure was. I sure was. And it's occurring to me how creepy it is that I'm 35 talking about this 19-year-old. So I think we should just stop. We should just stop. So he and his friends were doing some bar hopping in the Upper East Side using some fake IDs.

And while they were out, they ran into a girl they knew from college named Angel. And she was there with her friend Meredith. And immediately, Mark and Meredith hit it off. Sparks were flying. Hardcore flirt fest. Shut up. You're so stupid. That's me flirting with you.

Yeah. At that point, even though mark had been with this big group of friends from college he was so into meredith that he was kind of like okay i'm hanging out with you tonight yeah and she was like cool because don't mean to drive this point home but mark was a stud i bet there was like a lot of arm touching. There's always. Oh. Just a little. That's like the, that's the first signal. Yeah. You don't go straight for the dong.

No. Yeah. You got to stop at the arm. That's if you want to be subtle. That's right. And stay out of jail. So they left the bar and went someplace else and met up with another one of Meredith's friends, a guy named Al Cleary. And he brought along a friend named John Giucca.

John was 20 years old. He'd been an extra in Spider-Man, School of Rock, Sleepers, Law and Order. John had attended John Jay College and he planned to become a police officer, but who cares about that shit, because all you really need to know is that at this point, it was the wee hours of the morning, the bars had all closed, and John's mom and stepdad were vacationing in Florida, so that it meant it was party time at John's house. Hey-o!

So John's like, everyone's invited. Come on back to my place. So they all went to his family's super nice three-story Victorian home in the Prospect Park South neighborhood of Brooklyn. I would love to go on a walking tour of this place. It is beautiful. So, you know, everyone's having a good time. They're drinking. They're smoking pot. And more people showed up. And John says he thought Mark was a really cool guy. And Mark

seemed to think that John was a really cool guy. And yeah, you know, they were all super drunk, but hey, that's, you know, good times. So they're all having a good time. And that's when this 17-year-old guy named Antonio Russo showed up. Antonio could be a lot of fun, but he was also a bit of a hothead, sort of unpredictable, and a bit of an ass, it seems, because Antonio walked in and saw Mark Fisher and immediately started calling him Yamaka. Oh, what? Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

So edgy, so cool. Yeah, really cool dude. Great, yeah? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So edgy. So cool. Yeah, really cool dude. Great. Yeah. Wish I could be friends with that guy. So now this is where the story gets a little murky. Some people say that the party became tense.

Maybe there was some jealousy because Mark was this hot guy football player who was getting all this attention from Meredith. And maybe people didn't like that this guy they didn't know had just showed up and started drinking their beer and smoking their pot. But other people who were at the party say it wasn't tense at all. Everyone was just like drunk and happy and having a good time. happy and having a good time. For what it's worth, John said he wasn't worried about Mark showing up and not paying for drinks because John wasn't thinking about money. If he was worried about people drinking his alcohol, he wouldn't have invited them over to his house. Yeah. Now, at one point, Mark did sit down on a coffee table. Oh. And someone said, hey, you can't sit down on the coffee table you might break it

and so mark said oh okay and you stood up all right so that that happened what just so you know that happened okay now did it go down like i just told you of like hey don't sit on the coffee table okay or was it like you sat down on my coffee table. You've disrespected my house. You know? Who knows? Could have gone that way. Yeah.

You know how it is when someone sits on your coffee table? Yeah. Nope. It's not. You don't sit on a coffee table. It's not a chair. It shouldn't be a lesson a 19-year-old needs to be taught. Yeah, but.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why am I trying to defend? I'm just thinking drunk 19-year-old boy. Drunk 19-year-old, yeah, yeah. He sat on a coffee table. Okay.

All right, all right, I got it. Around 5 a.m. or so, John remembers seeing Mark wrapped in a yellow throw blanket asleep on the couch. And at some point after that, Mark woke up and left. up and left. And not long after that, in this really cute neighborhood that has all these amazing Victorian and colonial homes, neighbors woke up all at once. They heard shots fired. This was at about 640 a.m. and a bunch of people called 911 to report the gunfire. Some people said they heard the shots and they heard car doors slam shut. Some said they heard a car peel away. Some said they heard a woman talking before the gunshots. Some saw a white car speed away from the scene. At any rate, police arrived at the spot,

which was just a few blocks from John's house and right across the street from Al Cleary's house, one of the other party goers. And they discovered Mark Fisher's dead body. He'd been shot five times. His shirt was torn open. The buttons ripped off. He'd been beaten. He was face down with that yellow blanket covering him. Except the blanket wasn't really covering him. It was more like wrapped around him as if perhaps he'd been shot and wrapped in it and then placed at the end of the driveway.

Or maybe when he left the house, he... He, like, wrapped it around himself. Yeah. And then he got shot, and, you know, the blanket is really nothing to be concerned about. Yeah. At any rate, it was crazy. This promising teenage college student who had his whole life ahead of him had gone into the city for some fun and somehow wound up dead. Oh, my gosh.

On his body, investigators found an ATM receipt, which indicated that at 5.25 a.m., he'd gone to an ATM, got out 20 bucks, and went back to the party. Hmm. And Mark hadn't gone alone. Antonio Russo had gone with him. What was the money for? No idea. This murder was all over the New York tabloids.

In fact, the tabloids called it the Grid Kid Slay. What? Okay, I was hoping you could help me with that. Some source made mention of it being like a football thing, grid kid. Oh, grid kid. Yeah, like grid iron. Okay. Well.

Yeah, yeah. All right. Thank you, sports fan. I was like, I'm not even going to bother looking into it. I'm going to assume Brandi knows. More than 100 articles came out about this murder, and a former NYPD detective even wrote a book about it. And the tagline for the book was, First you party, dot, dot, dot, then you die.

Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. What is that, an R.L. Stine book? So there was a lot of interest in this case, but there wasn't much to go on. They knew Mark had been at a party because by that point Mark's college friends had reported him missing and told police who he'd gone off with that night. And police knew that Mark's body had been wrapped in a blanket from John's house. But they didn't have any hard evidence. Just a hunch that the people at the party either were involved or knew what had happened.

that the people at the party either were involved or knew what had happened. So they started talking to the people who went to the party, and the police got pissed because nobody wanted to talk to them. Of course they didn't. They were a bunch of underage kids. And they were privileged kids. Yeah. So they had the audacity to lawyer up.

Well, that's not a good sign. Okay. So we got to pause then. Yeah. Because the police agree with you. Oh, it's not a good sign. Or it's a privileged kid sign. Yeah.

Like, I know because of where I come from that you don't just talk to the police. You get a lawyer. Let me throw a scenario at you. London is 19 years old and she goes to a party and the next day I'd be better if you had a son. But anyway, the next day there's a dead body in your driveway. Yeah. And it's someone who went to the party with London and the police want to talk to her. Yeah. I'd get her a lawyer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. Yeah. So, I mean, now the press got really mad at them for getting attorneys. The police got really mad at them for getting attorneys. Personally, that's exactly what I would do. Yeah. Yeah. I don't trust the police.

Yeah. Fuck the police is what I say. Did you write that? I wrote that. Yeah. I don't trust the police. Yeah. Fuck the police is what I say. You write that? I wrote that. So to investigators, this felt like a coordinated cover up. Add to that that immediately after Mark was murdered, and by that I mean like minutes after Mark was murdered, Antonio Russo, who was the prime suspect in this case, cut off his dreadlocks, which he had been wearing for years. That's super sus. Uh-huh. Picked.

Picious, I believe. Oh, sorry. Both. He was a suspect and he was suspicious. And he was suspicious. Both. He was a suspect and he was suspicious. Yeah, what's he covering up? Well, he's uncovering his bald head. Was he trying to make it so they can't take a DNA sample because they'll fucking get one? No, I assume that he was worried that people had seen him. Oh, that didn't even occur to me.

I mean, that would be my guess. Okay. All right. And I mean, you really change your look up if you go from dreads to bald. And he didn't go completely bald. Oh, yeah. I thought he did like a male pattern baldness horseshoe. Now, that's if you really want to take the insurance.

It's like, oh, look, you think I'm 17. I'm actually 45. Clearly, you have the wrong person here. So, you know, he does that, like, police say, minutes after the murder. Yeah, that's weird. And a few days later, he booked a flight to California and took off to visit his uncle. Okay. You know how, like, at just the last minute, you get a hankering to go all the way across the country?

Mm-hmm. Like, just the last minute you get a hankering to go all the way across the country. But before Antonio took off for that trip, he gave investigators a pretty hot tip about his buddies, John Giucca and Al Clary. How hot was it? Are you ready for this? Yes. Are you ready? Yeah. What's the worst thing he could say about these guys right now? Oh, gosh, I don't know.

How about this? Those guys guys they were in a gang what yep yep and john was super high up in it the gang called themselves the ghetto mafia oh did they yeah they did. Yeah. Okay. Investigators were very alarmed by this. Oh, my God, this was a gang killing, an attempt to build street cred. We've seen the movies. Yeah. So based on that information, they arrested John, but they didn't have enough to keep him. Obviously. Obviously.

And meanwhile, John was like, whoa, I've never been in an actual gang. John's mom, Doreen, tried to explain that it was just boys being really dumb. She said that when her son was like nine, he and his friends called themselves the Westminster Warriors. And a few years later, they called themselves the Stratford Stray Cats. And then, yes. And they really started to get into, like, swing music, and, like, one of them learned to play the upright bass, and... That would be a very different story. And then, yes, they did end up calling themselves the Ghetto Mafia, but it was just, like, a

dumb, not-at-all-PC nickname that they gave their friend group. Yeah. It wasn't like a real. An actual gang with like initiations and like, you know, murder. Apparently it was. It's how Mark Fisher died. It was a gang thing. All right.

A year went by. Police were looking closely at Antonio and John, but there was still no hard evidence in this case, and no one had come forward with information. The case was at a standstill, but there was so much pressure to solve it. Not only had the media covered the shit out of this murder, but Charles Hines, who was the DA at the time, was up for re-election. He'd been in office for almost 15 years, and his chances in the upcoming election didn't look good with this major unsolved murder on his hands. So at this point, the DA set up an elite team to reinvestigate Mark Fisher's murder. They were going to solve this thing.

By dinnertime? That's murder. They were going to solve this thing. By dinnertime? That's right. And around that time, in the summer of 2004, they re-arrested John Giucca, but that arrest wasn't related to Mark Fisher's murder. They claimed that he'd shot at a group of men in Florida while he was on vacation. Apparently, investigators hoped this arrest would make John more cooperative in the murder case. But it didn't. And those charges were eventually dropped. So the Vanity Fair article mentions it's either another incident or it may be the same incident, but with conflicting information.

2020 kind of told a similar story. The same incident, but with conflicting information. 2020 kind of told a similar story. Bottom line is John doesn't seem to be any angel is the thing. So in that article, the article said that when John was 17, he got written up for lighting firecrackers. But then after Mark was murdered, anonymous witnesses came forward to say that those hadn't been firecrackers. It'd been gunfire. When all this resurfaced, John pled guilty to firearms charges,

even though he maintains he really was just shooting off firecrackers. At any rate, at this point, they held an investigative grand jury to look into Mark Fisher's murder. Antonio Russo was arrested, and the following month, John was arrested. John and Antonio's trials were held simultaneously in the same courtroom with two different juries, which I think sounds really fucking weird. What? Yeah. I didn't even know that was a thing. It's called a BOGO deal.

John had a lot of supporters. By the way, in case it's not obvious, I'm really focusing on John here. Yeah, that's just how we're going. What? That'd be like an interesting case study to see how two different juries receive and process the exact same evidence. Right. And, you know, one is deciding for John and the other is deciding for Antonio.

But it is very interesting. Yeah. And I think you'll see how it all plays out. All right. Continue. Okay. Next week, I'll finish this story.

So John had a lot of supporters. They showed up to court wearing free John Gioca t-shirts. In particular, John's mom, Doreen, had hope. She believed in the system. She knew her son didn't do this. She believed that her son had been sleeping when Mark Fisher was murdered and that he was being honest when he said he just didn't know anything about this murder. was murdered and that he was being honest when he said he just didn't know anything about this murder. The lead prosecutor on this case was a woman named Anna Siga Nicolazzi. She was super

smart, super blonde, super pretty, had a Pilates body, a face for TV, a voice for podcasting. Oh, foreshadowing. voice for podcasting. Oh, foreshadowing. Over the course of the two-week trial, the prosecution presented phone records that showed that three minutes before the murder, Antonio called John. In fact, before the murder, they talked on the phone like twice. And after the murder, they talked on the phone 26 times. think that looks pretty fucking good it looks really bad john says well you know something happened so we talked more which is not unreasonable oh yeah drawn together by tragedy still oh yeah yeah it's not a good look Still.

Ooh. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a good look. The prosecution also had damning testimony against John. For example, Al Cleary was one of the last people to leave the party. Mark's body was found kind of in front of his house. One source said in front of his house. The other said, like, across the street from his house.

He testified in court that John had a.22 pistol, which was the same as the murder weapon. And he also testified that John gave Antonio that gun and told him to show Mark what's up. It's worth noting that this isn't the first version of what he told investigators. Don't even believe it was the second or the third. But at any rate, that's what he said in court. John gave Antonio the gun because they needed to show mark what's up because they're part of the ghetto mafia okay you get it yeah i'm picking up what you're putting down you've been in many gangs no so many gangs if you want to be in my gang, my gang. Oh, yeah. I'm the leader.

Do you remember how it started? Someone sat on my coffee table. Then, Lauren Calciano, John's ex-girlfriend, also testified for the prosecution. She said that Antonio had wanted to rob Mark and that John gave him the gun to do it. Just like Al, this wasn't the first thing she'd said to investigators and her story didn't

match with Al's. But who cares? I mean, it's all bad. You get the idea. John's bad. Bad, bad, bad. The prosecution also brought forth a jailhouse snitch. What? What? What?

That's a weird strategy by the prosecution. What do you mean? They bring forward people who had contradictory testimony just paying someone in a bad light. It doesn't match up. Well, what if you can. It doesn't match up. Well, what if you can't get it to match up? Yeah, exactly. I think you just call one or the other, not both.

But just one might not be enough to convince people. Okay. I get that they're both telling a bad story. They're telling different bad stories. That's not, I think if I'm a juror, that doesn't look good. What's better?

One bad story or three bad stories? Is the jailhouse of horror going to tell a different bad story? Yeah. What? You ready? Yes. So this guy's name was John Evito. And he'd heard the whole story.

Are you ready? Yeah. Here's how it went down. John pistol whipped Mark Fisher. And someone else grabbed the gun and shot Mark. So, in conclusion, the prosecution had testimony from a few different people. I didn't mention all of them. And all of them said something bad about John.

None of them had the exact same story. Yeah. But I think that looks really bad. I completely agree. Completely agree. Why would they all have different stories that all lead to the same place? Kind of odd. Uh-huh.

And like super different motives, right? To either, either this is for a gang thing or it's to rob a guy who maybe has $20. $20. $20. It just shows how callous they were. Uh-huh. Okay. Then came time for the defense.

Attorneys for John and Antonio obviously had the opportunity to call witnesses, and there had been other people at the party they could have called. But they didn't. They didn't do shit. They just rested their cases. Neither of their attorneys presented evidence against the other one. Okay. With what the prosecution put up, I might, as the defense, do the same thing.

Be like, they are confusing the shit out of this jury, which they're not going one direction. You wouldn't bring other partygoers to the stand to say, I didn't see any tension that night. It makes to me it makes a bigger impact to be like, we're not even going to put up a case because the prosecution's case here is so weak. Quite a gamble. They can't even tell you what really happened. Every witness they put up here has told you a different story. Which one is it? It's none of them.

And my client is innocent. Wow. Well, Brandy, I guess you want to let a little Tony Soprano out on the streets. Because that's what this guy is, okay? He's cold. He's callous.

Okay. All for the street cred. That's why he did it. And maybe 20 bucks. Maybe. Okay. So what do you make of the fact that they didn't say anything against one another? Was that intense loyalty maybe meh yeah so it's like

it could be read as oh my gosh they're in this gang together they're not gonna snitch on each other yes snitches get stitches yes and we invented that for sure. And then or is it that there's nothing to say? There's nothing to say. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. The most John's attorneys said about Antonio was that if Antonio really had killed Mark, then he'd acted alone.

John had not helped. Antonio really had killed Mark, then he'd acted alone. John had not helped. The jury that heard Antonio's case took two days to deliberate. John's jury deliberated for 90 minutes. See, this is, yeah, different juries. Holy shit. Yeah, you got some thinkers on one side and some people who want to be out by dinnertime. They found John guilty of capital murder, and Antonio was later found guilty as well. When she heard the verdict, John's mom yelled at the detectives, Are you happy now? And she had to be dragged from the courtroom. At the sentencing, the judge said, this was a callous crime, and the defendant's reactions were callous.

Brutal, callous, and shockingly senseless. So my sentence will be callous. And he sentenced them both to 25 to life. Wow. John's mom, Doreen, lost her mind. Yeah. She'd already lost a daughter to cerebral palsy. Now she felt like she was losing her son, too. She went home and smashed up her bedroom. Oh, my gosh. Her husband, Frank, John's stepdad, thought she was having a nervous breakdown. And I mean, maybe she was. I mean, she couldn't

stop crying. Every weekend she took a bus for eight hours to see her son. She just felt so sick and helpless. But then the following year in 2006, she came up with a plan. She decided to investigate all of the jurors who'd put her son away. It seemed so weird that they only took 90 minutes to find him guilty. Maybe there was something she could uncover. She wanted to find evidence of jury misconduct so that her son could get a new trial. So she got a list of all the jurors' names and she found their addresses and she began surveilling them.

Yeah. Wow. Yikes. Yeah. It didn't go great at first. She had a friend go talk to one of the jurors as she walked to work, but nothing really came of that conversation. I mean, how do you casually get to like, hey, so you ever been on a jury?

Oh, weird. Did you ever like do anything you shouldn't have done? And she found out where another juror worked and she gave him her number and they got together. But nothing came of that either. She did this for eight months. Oh, my gosh. Just watching these jurors one by one. And when it came time to surveil juror number eight, she had an epiphany.

Juror number eight was a bald guy named Jason Allo. And Doreen remembered that during the trial, when so many of John's friends had shown up to support him, one of his friends looked at juror number eight and was like, huh, I know that guy. What? Mm-hmm. Turns out juror number eight had been friends with a bunch of John's friends. Well, that's a conflict of interest. Yeah, possibly. Maybe there was something to it.

Yeah. Maybe Doreen could explore it. No! Explore it, Doreen! Explore it! So Doreen... Strapped on her scuba suit. Oh, you're not going to believe what she does. I don't know what word to use. I almost want to use the word

stalked. So she did that for months. She watched his house where he lived with his mom. She saw he had a cat and she's like, oh, when I finally run into him, I'm going to pretend I love cats. She memorized his schedule. She followed him everywhere. Yep. That is in fact stalking. It's tough because I'm kind of behind it. It was exhausting. Doreen very quickly learned like, okay, well, I can't drink coffee

while I'm doing this work because then I have to pee and I have to find a bathroom. There's not a Starbucks everywhere. You know, surveillance problems. Yeah, diapers. Stalking problems. Space diapers.

Space diapers, yeah. That lady had one good idea. Doreen took copious notes. She referred to Jason as the target and her investigation as the sting. She spent an entire year surveilling him. At one point, she borrowed a friend's burka and she put it on and she was able to get super close to him and eavesdrop without him noticing her.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, apparently the friend was like, when you have a burka on, you're invisible. Yeah. It's gonna work. And it did. While she was eavesdropping,

she overheard Jason talk about blondes. He loved blondes. Okay. Tall, hot ones? Let's find out. So that gave her another idea. At this point, she needed to take it up a notch.

It wasn't enough to just watch him. Okay. She needed real information. But she couldn't risk that he might recognize her from court. I was going to say, how many episodes in a row? I can mention Emeril Lagasse. You really lit up the last time we talked about Emeril. Do you want to talk about Emeril for a second?

I just love Emeril so much. Why do you love him so much? So he was, I remember the very first time I saw an episode of his cooking show. Are you serious? Yes. And he burnt what he was cooking. And he was like, hey, we're really cooking here, okay? Yeah.

And like, I just loved it so much. I remember you talking about Emeril so much. Yes. Do you know what I was thinking about today? What? I was honestly thinking about Emeril and how much you love Emeril. Yeah.

This is so weird that I was thinking about this today. I was thinking when COVID is all over, we should all take a trip to New Orleans. Yes. I want to go to his restaurant. Okay. Well.

Okay. Let's do it. Okay. Yeah. Great. It's really weird that I thought of this today. It also shows that I can't keep a secret at all because I was thinking, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to plan the trip and I will like immediately get reservations.

And then hopefully like time will pass and then we'll be there. I won't be like, oh, maybe we should go. It's like, oh, we can't. And then I can be like, oh, but bam. Anyway, I act surprised when it happens. It sounds great. So, you know, she's worried about being recognized from court.

She wants to befriend this guy. She needed to present herself as the kind of woman he would want to get to know. So she dyed her hair blonde, got a real dark spray tan. She got a hot girl makeover. Started working out. She bought a bunch of low-cut tops and short shorts and push-up bras. Makeup looked on point, I must say. High heels, the works.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, so she's in, like, her mid-40s, but, I mean, she got herself dolled up. She was working it. She was working it. She rode a bike in high heels, which... That's a bold move. Well, I mean, you gotta be bold sometimes.

You gotta be bad. You gotta be wiser. Love will save the day. She made up business cards, which that seems unnecessary, but anyway, she made up business cards that said D. Madison Quinn, business management specialist. And she got business cards that said D. Madison Quinn, business management specialist. And she got a cell phone for D.

By this point, she knew that he lived with his mom and she knew he wouldn't invite her up to his mom's place. So Doreen rented an apartment near Jason's place. Holy shit, this is elaborate. I knew you would love this. I love it so much. she rented it for 16 months oh my god where's the money for this coming from so she and her um and her husband are pretty well off like she grew up kind of rough but she worked super hard and also i think kind of timing was on their side in terms of real estate they bought up a bunch of property in the 90s when stuff was cheap.

They held on to it. They became landlords. And, you know, they did well for themselves. Okay. So, you know, she moved a few things into it. She actually had some of John's friends help her move stuff into it. She did not tell them what was going on. They just assumed she was having marital problems.

So they just kind of, you know, didn't say anything, but they helped her move a futon in there, just a few things. She wanted this to be a place where Jason would feel comfortable, where she could maybe have him over for dinner. On the first day of her mission, she put on one of her little provocative outfits, got on her bike, and rode past Jason's place, back and forth, back and forth, trying to get his attention. But it didn't work. Finally, one of his friends whistled at her, and that's all she needed. She stopped stopped and she said hi. She told them she was new in the neighborhood and she was from California. She wanted to know the best coffee shops and the best Chinese restaurants.

And, you know, she started flirting with Jason's friend, purposely ignoring the target. And that worked. Yeah. He was instantly interested. Of course. And he asked for her. He was instantly interested. Of course. And he asked for her number. I should pause.

They did this in the 2020 episode and I do not blame them. She claimed to be a California girl. This woman has the thickest Brooklyn accent you have ever heard in your life. She claims that she put on a voice for it. But I don't see how you could possibly cover this up. She said at one point he did say, you sound like you're from Brooklyn. And she was like, oh, I've been taking classes. Yeah. By this point, it was the spring of 2008, and over the course of six months, she became Jason's friend.

She stayed up with him until like 5 a.m. She would drink with him. She'd smoke with him. She'd cook him meals, anything for alone time with him. She said she tried to give him exactly what anyone would want, a home-cooked meal, great wine, and a dingy blonde who would laugh at all his jokes and pretend he was totally fascinating. But none of this came naturally. Doreen was a lightweight. She barely drank, so when he came over, she'd, like, sip on her wine, and as soon as his head was turned or he went to the bathroom,

she'd just dump the wine out. And every time they interacted, she wore a recording device right between her boobs, just waiting for the moment when he would say the wrong thing. But this all took a toll on her. Of course it did. Yeah, she was leading a double life. And it made her sick to hang out with this guy who'd put her son away. After Jason would leave her fake apartment, her hands would shake. Sometimes she'd cry. And she was spending all this time away from her husband, Frank, away from her friends, away from the rest of her family. Her husband didn't like what she was doing, but he knew he couldn't stop her. So he just tried to be supportive. He told her,

the one rule is you can't sleep with him. And she agreed. She wouldn't sleep with Jason. But deep down, she knew that if it came to that, she'd do it. Yeah, of course. Yeah. You're this far in. Absolutely. And she's like, if it's for my son to get a new trial, whatever it takes. Yeah. So now it's the fall of 2008.

Doreen, a.k.a. Dee, was smoking pot with Jason in her apartment and she'd made them a meal. And she mentioned that she was doing some work for an organization that investigated wrongful convictions. And Jason was like, oh, really? You know, I was on a murder case before. We convicted the guy. And Doreen played it cool.

I know. I can't even imagine. I bet her heart was just pounding out of her fucking chest. Yeah. So this is the first time it gets brought up. Oh, my gosh. And she said she couldn't even speak. She didn't want to push too hard.

So, you know, they have that little thing. Okay. A couple months pass. They were in Dee's apartment again. She had a recorder going. They were listening to the Rolling Stones. And that's when Jason finally opened up to her. That's a band, Kristen. Yes, it is. Not just rocks that are falling down a road.

He started talking about her son. The prosecution had tried to say that John was this gang member of the ghetto mafia. And the media had eaten that story up. But Jason said they tried to make him out like Tony Soprano, but he was a fucking clown. He described John as a, quote, tall, skinny Jewish kid with glasses. And Jason said that he hated Jewish people. Yeah.

Oh, shit. Now, John wasn't Jewish. Yeah. Oh, shit. Now, John wasn't Jewish. Right. But still. If he thought he was, isn't that enough? It gets better. Oh, my gosh. Okay.

They talked about how he could have been excused from the jury based on the fact that he hated Jewish people so much. been excused from the jury based on the fact that he hated Jewish people so much. Then Jason said, technically, by law, I shouldn't have even been in that jury. Because they ask you in the beginning when you go to jury duty, they read you a list of all the witnesses. And if you know or are affiliated with these people in any way, you have to let them know. And he did know people, but he didn't say anything. At this point, he said, I'll tell you this, but I'd never tell anyone else. I actually had some type of information. that went down. D. Um, about, uh, Jason. Remember when I told you that they hang out over here sometimes? D. Right. Jason. A friend of mine. She told me some stuff they heard. D. Okay. Jason.

Well, it's not even a friend. It's my cousin, and she wouldn't lie about something like that. D. So what did she say? Jason. I'd rather not say, but she overheard them talking, like, shortly after this happened. D. The group? Jason.

Right, the guys that hang out together. He didn't go into a lot of detail, but he made it clear that he knew things that should have disqualified him from being on that jury. Or at the very least, he should have disclosed during jury selection. He knew the key people. So Doreen was like, great. I have exactly what we need for my son to get a new trial. So Doreen took off for her brother's house so that he could make copies of these tapes. But she was so nervous about getting into an accident on the way there that before she left, she grabbed a Sharpie and she wrote instructions about what to do and her brother's address on her body.

Oh, my gosh. So that if she got into an accident and something happened to her, the cops would know what to do with the tapes. Yeah, she just worked how long to get this information? Right, right. She also consulted an attorney. She went to Vanity Fair, and they were, of course, like, oh, my God, this is one hell of a story.

They did a whole write up. And soon Doreen became famous for what she'd done. People thought it was incredible. And at the same time, they thought Jason was an anti-Semitic bag of dicks. Yes. And that made Jason mad. So he went on Nightline to clear his name. Oh, did he?

And he had this, oh, my God. Oh. So he went on Nightline to clear his name. Oh, did he? And he had this, oh my God. Oh. He had this attorney with him who basically sat in his lap the whole time and was wearing so much hair gel that his hair looked permanently wet. And this attorney got mad at the journalist for doing such crazy things as asking questions. And it was very triggering as a former reporter oh i hated this guy when jason did get a word in edgewise he said he didn't commit perjury he never lied to the judge he said that d threw herself at him in provocative clothing but that he never saw her as more than a

friend she's not my cup of tea. And he didn't recall making any comments about Jewish people. Oh, okay. Yeah. At the end of this ridiculous interview, where Jason's attorney was being a crybaby about every single question, he then made a hilarious joke. Should we waterboard him? You know, because the journalist had been so tough to his client by just asking basic questions about the transcript of the tapes.

Wow. So at this point, thanks to Doreen's undercover work, John's legal team filed a motion to get a new trial based on juror misconduct. This was their big moment. Finally, all of Doreen's undercover work would pay off. But the judge didn't hold a hearing. He just denied the motion. He said the tapes didn't show that the juror intentionally lied in the jury selection process. Disagree.

He also said that the tape wasn't reliable. He said there was no way to prove that it hadn't been altered. And he got real pissed at Doreen. He basically said, this isn't how it works. That's the job of a detective. You're not a detective. You're guilty of extraordinary misconduct. It was a devastating blow. Oh, no. John remained in prison, and it seemed that all of Doreen's work had been for nothing. And ultimately, it cost her her marriage. Oh, no. She and Frank had been married for almost 20 years, but this was too much of a strain. So they divorced, but it really didn't slow Doreen down. She said, I can get another husband. I can't get another son.

So she was like, you know what? I'm going back to the drawing board. Maybe there's another way we can undo this conviction. I'm going to pause here because there's actually a lot of appeal stuff with this case, including a federal appeal, but most of it doesn't amount to much. So I'm just playing you the greatest hits. Okay. And as she started working on that, a few key witnesses came forward from John's trial. His ex-girlfriend, Lauren Calciano, admitted that she'd lied in court. She regretted her actions for years, and now she wanted to come clean.

She signed a sworn affidavit saying that she lied in the trial because the prosecutors and the investigators had threatened her. Her dad was in prison at the time, and she said they implied that if she didn't lie for them, they'd make her dad's life more difficult. Wow. She said they also threatened her with perjury or obstruction and told her that they'd found compromising photos of her. And it scared her. Yeah, of course it did. So she told them what they wanted to hear. Then there was the jailhouse snitch. At this point, it was 2013,

and Doreen wanted to attack this case, but do it by the book this time. So she hired a private investigator, a real one, named Jay Salvito, to look into this jailhouse snitch. So Jay called up John, the jailhouse snitch, and explained who he was and convinced John to meet up with him. And they met up, and Jay recorded the conversation conversation and John just stuck to the original story. Oh, yeah, he pistol whipped the guy, kicked him, punched him. And the investigator was like, OK. But they kept meeting and kept talking and kept meeting. And finally, John admitted the whole thing had been a lie.

He told the lie because the prosecution offered him a deal. Oh, my gosh. He was supposed to go to jail for some drug violations, but they let him go in exchange for his testimony. Wow. At the trial, of course, the jury wasn't told this. They were told that, you know, John was just testifying out of the goodness of his own heart. And to be fair, I don't get the sense that any of this was written down. But like when the time came, the prosecutor became his big advocate.

So, you know, there you go. So this was bad. By this point, there was finally a new D.A. in town. And the previous guy, the one who'd been up for reelection at the time of John's trial, had lost his recent bid for reelection due in part to reports that he'd presided over a bunch of wrongful murder convictions and basically didn't play by the rules at all. And this new DA had promised to take a second look at possible wrongful convictions. new DA had promised to take a second look at possible wrongful convictions. But this would be tough because some of the key players in this case had become even more powerful. The lead prosecutor for the trial, Anna, I think I'm pronouncing this right, Anna Siga

Nicolazzi, had done very well for herself. Does that name sound familiar? It does sound familiar. Okay. She hosts the investigation discovery series True Conviction, which is in its third season. She was part of the show Did He Do It? And I never have seen this show, but she's the former prosecutor and then they bring in a defense attorney and they kind of present both sides, I think. She's also the co-host of a popular true crime podcast that's way more popular than this podcast. It's called Anatomy of Murder. Oh, yeah.

Have you listened to that? I'm not listening to it. Yeah, I haven't either. And she famously touts that in all her years as a prosecutor, she, quote, never lost a homicide case. lost a homicide case. Which Doreen in this episode of 2020 was like, hmm, yeah, it's pretty easy to never lose when you're not

playing by the rules. Right. Yeah. So yeah, she's doing just fine. But this did look bad for her because the jailhouse snitch admitted he lied in court and the ex-girlfriend admitted she'd lied as well and the judge granted a hearing to determine whether John Giuga really got a fair

trial. At that hearing, Anna Siga Nicolazzi was in the hot seat and she did a great job, of course. She was unflappable and John Evito, the jailhouse snitch, came in, and the first thing he did was apologize to John, and he broke down. Another person who I haven't mentioned until now also recanted his testimony, and that was Anthony Berry. At trial, he said that after the murder, he'd gotten rid of a gun for John. But now, all these years later, he said he only testified that way because the prosecution promised him immunity and threatened him with perjury if he didn't do what they wanted. At the time, he was in a custody battle over his daughter, and he said they implied that if he didn't cooperate, he wouldn't see his daughter again. Wow. Wow. So John's new defense team talked about prosecutorial misconduct, but they also talked about the failures of John's trial attorney.

There were so many inconsistencies in the different witness statements. Why hadn't he pointed that out to the jury? I thought it was really funny when you were being his pretend attorney. You were talking about the inconsistency and it's like, wow, Brandy. Not an attorney. Not an attorney. No legal training. Is killing it.

But ultimately, the judge denied the motion to vacate the conviction. Wow. He decided there'd been no deal. John DeVito's life had not been made better for having testified. And Doreen, who'd been sitting there watching the whole thing, began screaming. And she was told to calm down, but she couldn't. And once again, she was dragged out of court. Oh, my gosh.

They appealed the judge's decision, but they were losing hope. And then in February of 2018, a panel of four appellate judges unanimously overturned the other judge's decision. They found that the prosecutor did violate court rules. She should have told the jury and the defense that she'd helped the jailhouse snitch, duh. But even though John's conviction was overturned, he was still technically charged with that crime, so he was still in prison and the judge denied him bail. Oh, my gosh. And prosecutors continued working on their case against John, which they didn't have

at this point because there had never been any hard evidence. Now, basically all the witnesses have recanted their testimony. What do you have? Nothing. have recanted their testimony. What do you have? Nothing. So they went and they interviewed Antonio in prison,

hoping to get more information out of him. But Antonio told them, I did it alone. I killed Mark by myself with my own gun. But that didn't stop the DA. They appealed the appellate court's decision, hoping that the court would reinstate the conviction. Meanwhile, John knew that he might get offered a deal, and his mom wanted him to take it,

but he didn't want to take a deal. He said, I want my name cleared. He said one of the worst things about this whole thing was having people think that he was a murderer. He wanted that wiped away. But it hasn't been wiped away. Because in June of 2019, the New York Court of Appeals overturned the appeals court's decision. Oh my gosh. John's murder conviction was reinstated. His legal team has filed a third motion to vacate his conviction based on new evidence. But for now, he remains in prison.

And that's the story of an undercover mother. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Once you are convicted, it is. I know. So fucking hard. Which is why you lawyer up from the beginning.

Holy shit. And you be rich and white. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that obviously didn't help this guy, but still. Yeah. Holy shit. The stuff that mom did i know wow this is just an incredible story to me yeah

i'm so curious as to what really happened and i wonder if antonio really is being honest now and saying, yeah, he just if he just did it. Yeah. Maybe for no reason. Yeah. Mark Fisher's parents. Now, I didn't do a ton of reading on them, but Mark Fisher's parents, I believe, believe pretty strongly that more people were involved in this. Which, yeah, I mean, their son's body was found right by someone's house who was at the party. So that does seem suspicious.

Yeah, I agree. I bet a lot of people know way more than they're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Unless Antonio really just did this by himself. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. There's a lot more to this story.

I mean, that was like, if you can believe that was the condensed version, that was the condensed version. But some of the other people who were at the party, one of the people's moms was high up in the local Republican Party. So there's thought to have been some influence there. Another person who was involved in all this was later hired as a district as an assistant district attorney under that guy um it's it's a strange wow situation to say the least wow what do you think you think he's innocent uh i think it's very likely yeah yeah yeah i do too Yeah. Yeah. I do, too. Yep. Ugh. Mm-hmm. Hate that.

This is one of those gross ones where it's just, it's a reminder that it's not about justice. It's about winning. Yep. Prosecutor wants to win. Mm-hmm. I've won all of my my all of my murder trials. Yeah. In the staircase

that's something that Michael Peterson says as he's going to trial. He says this is no longer about the truth. Right.

This is no longer about justice. It's no longer Or Justin. It's no longer even about Kathleen. Right. It's no Justin. It's no longer even about Kathleen. Right. It's about winning.

Right. Yeah. I think that's I think that's completely right. Yeah. It's a game now. Yeah. It's no longer about the victim. It's no longer about truth and justice.

It's it's a game. Yep. And can we get you. Yeah. Oh. That was very good. I didn't know anything about that case. I was surprised because I kept coming across elements like you love to cover a parent who goes a little too far.

You love to cover a party that goes wrong. Yep. Yep. You love it. Nope. Never heard of it. You love push-up bras. I do. I do. Do you really? I love a good push-up bra. Absolutely. Never heard of it. You love push-up bras. I do. I do.

Do you really? I love a good push-up bra. Absolutely. Okay. All right. Sometimes the girls need some help. Getting a little height. Mine don't.

I've got magnets on my chin. Gravity's a bitch, Kristen. That should be the tagline for push-up bra gravity's a bitch let's start our own bra line that's right all right let's talk about a bathtub murder question mark i have to tell you something what so when i was trying to find a case to do this week, I came across this one you're doing. And I was like, this is amazing.

And I almost texted you to say, could I get dibs on this? And then I was like, why does this guy's name sound familiar? And you had asked me the amazing thing about my little fish brain. I can't remember anything about the case. I just remember thinking, oh, my gosh, I should do this for the podcast. All right. So I know this is going to be a great story. All right.

Here we go. Shout out to Sarah Lenz and Brian West of the Desert News. All right. They did like a year- long investigation into this case. God bless them. Like this amazing, comprehensive piece. Okay. To those on the outside, the McNeil family seemed like the perfect family.

Oh my God. This is a... Put down your bingo cards, everyone. Brandi's got a perfect family here. Martin, the patriarch, was a physician who also had a law degree. His wife, Michelle... Pick a lane. His wife, Michelle, was a former beauty queen and a devoted mother.

The couple raised four children to adulthood and then adopted four more, three from Ukraine. They were active in their LDS community in Pleasant Grove, Utah, with Martin even serving as a bishop in their ward. They lived in a big, beautiful home. I'm sorry. I'm still stuck on raised four children to adulthood. It's not the 1800s. I mean, stuck on raised four children to adulthood. It's not the 1800s. I mean, of course they all lived to adulthood, right?

Yeah. They had a set of four biological children. Okay. They raised them, and then they were like, get the fuck out. Uh-huh. I'm sure. I'm sure the LDS people were like, get the fuck out. I'm sure the Mormons were like, get the fuck out.

And then they were like, we're not done raising kids yet. Let's adopt four more. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They lived in a big, beautiful home and were the envy of many. And as we've talked about before, they were your very traditional Mormon family who were just all ridiculously good looking.

Why are Mormons so hot? I mean, they don't smoke, they don't drink, right? Oh God, is that it? It's good. They have no fun, and therefore there are no lies on the face. That's right. They've all got such fresh skin.

That's right, that's right. But to those on the inside, the problems within Martin and Michelle's relationship were apparent, abundant, and had been present from the very beginning. In fact, Helen Summers, Michelle McNeil's mother, would recall always feeling uneasy around Martin. She said she just had a bad feeling about him. And she wasn't the only one. When Michelle and Martin met in 1978 at a singles event in the LDS church, the bishop came to Helen and warned her not to let Michelle go out with him. He told her he couldn't say why. Oh, shit. Mm-hmm. Michelle's younger sister, Linda, had a similar feeling about Martin.

She said from the beginning he just gave her the creeps. Oh, no. She said it was the way he carried himself. He'd walk in their house like he owned the place, like he was hot shit. Linda said he always just seemed like a big actor to her there was nothing genuine about him whether in go ahead i'm wondering what the bishop knew did they do any kind of confession in the mormon church do you know yeah you're supposed yeah there's there's aspects of it like you're supposed, yeah, there's aspects of it. Like, you're supposed to, like, what?

What? Okay, some insider knowledge that I have of the LDS faith, the Mormon church. Even if you're, like, having unsavory dreams, you're supposed to go talk to your bishop about it. Like if you're having sex dreams about someone who's not your husband. Oh, God, that's uncomfortable. Uh-huh. Yeah. You're supposed to go talk to your bishop about it.

I'd rather get hit by a bus than go talk to some old man about a sex dream. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. stream okay yeah cool yeah so whether or not the family members voiced their concerns to michelle i don't know but it's my best guess that at the very least martin picked up on the vibe from michelle's family because he started isolating her yeah and if he's a true creep he doesn't even have to pick up on the vibe he just wants to Because he started isolating her. Yeah.

And if he's a true creep, he doesn't even have to pick up on the vibe. He just wants to isolate. The couple eloped and moved away from Michelle's family. Of course they did. And it was shortly after Helen learned that her daughter and Martin had eloped that she saw a story in the newspaper featuring her new son-in-law. And it confirmed her suspicions that Martin wasn't the godly man he claimed to be. The headline read, Brilliant Forgery Spree Inspired by TV. Oh.

What Helen learned from the article was that just before meeting Michelle, Martin had forged $35,000 in checks, which adjusted for inflation, almost $150,000. The doctor slash lawyer is forging checks? He wasn't a doctor slash lawyer yet at this point. How it started, how it's going. Yes. Yes. So he forged thirty five thousand dollars in checks and then gone on a three day shopping spree where he bought diamond rings, 60 pairs of socks, couches, chairs, a grandfather clock, watches, bicycles, a refrigerator, 20 pairs of shoes, TVs, new tires and a whole new wardrobe. Thank you for calling out the socks and not just saying a whole new wardrobe. Thank you for calling out the socks and not just saying a whole new wardrobe.

Yes. In a session with a court-appointed psychiatrist, Martin said, I don't know why I did it. I didn't want the stuff. I didn't need the stuff. He told investigators that he got the idea after watching a 60 Minutes episode about how check forgery worked. He told his friends that he could do it better and with fewer risks.

Martin was sentenced to six months in jail for his forgery scheme. And he learned his lesson and that's the end of the story. And never broke the law again. Well, great. Helen thought that this was likely just the tip of the iceberg with Martin McNeil. She recalls telling her other daughters that day, I wouldn't be surprised if he killed her someday. Oh. And what a prediction of things to come that would turn out to be.

By the spring of 2007, after nearly 30 years of marriage, the relationship between Martin and Michelle had become strained. Michelle confided in two of her adult daughters, Rachel and Alexis, that she suspected their father was having an affair. Alexis did some snooping in her dad's phone and confirmed that there was a number that he was interacting with a lot. One evening, she called the number and a woman answered. But Alexis hung up without saying anything. It seemed Michelle's suspicions were likely correct.

She also believed that he was making preparations for divorce. In the last year, they downsized from an 11,000 square foot, $1.4 million home to a 5,300 square foot, $800,000 home. Oh, what a shithole. Yeah. Michelle was convinced that this was a strategic move by Martin to move her into a house he could afford to keep her in when he ultimately left her. Wow.

He'd also lost a significant amount of weight and started tanning. Oh, that's, you know what? Chris Watts. While Michelle, a former... Always beware of your significant other losing weight. Yes, and like getting like real... Getting too hot? Yep.

Don't want anyone too hot around here. Yeah. So he's lost weight. He starts tanning. While Michelle, a former beauty queen, was really struggling with her self-image since she'd turned 50 and gained a little bit of weight. Michelle told her daughters that their dad had suggested she get a facelift. Oh, that's so sweet. It'd make her feel so much better about herself.

Had she wanted a facelift or was this an out of nowhere? Oh, that's so nice. She told them that she wanted to do it to make him happy, but that she was nervous. She'd been dealing with some issues with high blood pressure and she'd feel better if she could just lose a few pounds before the procedure. But Martin was, like, moving full speed ahead with the suggestion. He found a plastic surgeon that came highly recommended, and he scheduled a consult. And before she knew it, Michelle's facelift was scheduled for April 3, 2007.

If he wants to divorce her, why insist on a facelift? Yeah, it's weird, right? The surgery went well. Michelle spent the first night recovering at the surgery center where her procedure was performed and then went home as planned on April 4th. The McNeil's daughter, Alexis, came home to Utah from Las Vegas, where she was attending medical school, to help care for her mother following her surgery. On the 4th, Alexis went into the master bedroom at her parents' home where

her mother was laying in bed, recovering. She was shocked to find that her mother was lethargic and nearly unresponsive. Alarmed, she asked her dad what was going on and martin admitted that he may have over medicated her accidentally of course he's a doctor yeah he's a fucking doctor and when you go home from surgery they tell you what to do they sure do they don't say pop a million pills alexis was pissed yes She announced that she was taking over Michelle's care and that she and only she would be administering her drugs from now on. In the following days, Alexis got her mother's meds under control and Michelle became more alert. She told Alexis that she didn't trust Martin to give her her meds and that with the bandages from her surgery, she couldn't see what he was giving her.

Oh, shit. Alexis assured her that she would be the only one doling out the medications moving forward. But still, Michelle had Alexis place each of the pills in her hand so she could memorize the feel of them. Whoa. Yeah. Holy shit. Jesus Christ. GQ. Fortune. Cosmo. As she was doing this,

Alexis took note of what her mother had been prescribed following her surgery. And it seemed like too much. There was hydrocodone and Ambien and something for nausea and an antibiotic. That all seems standard. But then there was also oxycodone and Valium. It seemed like way too much. On top of the hydrocodone? Yes. That seems like a lot. Way too much. Alexis was like, no wonder my mom was nearly comatose when I checked on her.

What's the recovery like for a facelift like when you I said it's a I know I look great for 87 right you do no legit though it's a major surgery it was a nine hour surgery oh my god yeah okay so you would be really messed up yeah you would need serious serious nine hours nine hours her surgery took nine hours. Holy. Yeah. I mean, they literally like, they cut your face like at your hairline. Usually like in your hairline so you can't see it. And then they just like pull it, tuck that shit back. Oh my God. Do they do something to the neck too?

Yeah. You got to like nip, you got to nip the, you got to nip this part back here. And then yeah, usually there's like a tuck up here. Oh, God. And then they have to usually, usually there's like an, you remove part of the eyelid. You bring the brow up. Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah.

I don't know why I asked. I can't even handle it. By April 6th, three days after her surgery, Michelle was doing much better. But again, she confided in Alexis her fears about her marriage and her fear of her husband's intentions with her surgery. She told Alexis, if anything happens to me, make sure it wasn't your dad. Oh. Alexis assured her that she would stay there by her side until she was well enough to not have to rely on Martin. But she tucked that request from her mother into the back of her mind.

Within a couple of days, Michelle was back to her routine. She was up, moving around, cooking, doing laundry. She told Alexis she felt great. She wasn't needing the narcotics for pain anymore. She told Alexis she was good and that Alexis should go back to school. And so, at her mother's request, Alexis returned to school in Las Vegas on April 10th, one week after the facelift. Within 18 hours, Michelle McNeil was dead. Oh. On the morning of April 11th, Alexis called her mom to check in. And she was in great spirits.

She said she was feeling good and that Martin was actually being super sweet to her and doting on her, you know, really taking care of her was great. An hour after getting off the phone with her mom, though, Alexis received a really weird voicemail from her dad. He was irritated. He said something about how her mother kept getting out of bed and she needed her rest. This just sat wrong with Alexis. She'd been there the previous morning and her mom was up doing laundry and cooking. She'd been doing great.

And she'd been plenty capable of deciding when and if she needed rest. Right. To say Alexis was worried was an understatement. She called her mom over and over and over again. But the calls went unanswered. Oh, shit. Finally, her dad answered her mom's phone. And he told her he had just called 911 and was attempting CPR.

Then he hung up. And was attempting CPR. Then he hung up. Alexis, when she got that, when he answered the call, she was like literally walking in her apartment from school. She said she dropped her backpack on the floor and ran to her car and started driving to the airport immediately. She cried and she screamed as she drove, repeating, he's killed her. He's killed her. He's killed her. He's killed her. Alexis later said of that moment, I just had this overwhelming feeling that he had done it.

I was very, very close to my dad. He's the whole reason she was in medical school. She wanted to follow in his footsteps. My whole world turned upside down. I'm a pretty rational person, but that was the feeling. It was very strange, unsettling, and horrifying to come to that realization. So what had happened that day? So what had happened that day?

Martin McNeil arrived home around 1140 on the morning of April 11th after picking up six-year-old daughter Ada from school. And they found Michelle unresponsive in the tub in the master bathroom. He called 911. But there was some kind of miscommunication with the dispatcher, and it took almost 30 minutes for an ambulance to arrive at the home. What kind of miscommunication? It's weird, right? Oopsie, I forgot my address. Oopsie, I gave the wrong address. Yeah.

It's just so confusing, you know, in the moment, and I can't remember where I live. Yeah, wrong address. Wrong address that he also, like, screamed at the top of his lungs. Okay. Mm-hmm. In the meantime, while he's waiting for emergency crews to arrive, Martin performs CPR on Michelle. And he also like I don't at some point his son Damien was at the house and he like told his son to hide or flush all of the drugs next to Michelle's bed.

Now, why would he need to do? So he made a comment about her not wanting people to know that she'd had a facelift or a comment about wanting to keep it a family matter or something like that. Or a comment about wanting to keep it a family matter or something like that. When paramedics finally arrived on the scene, they took over performing CPR on Michelle. And they succeeded in getting water out of her lungs. But it was too late. Michelle McNeil was declared dead on April 11, 2007. She was 50 years old. Alexis arrived from Las Vegas and grieved with her siblings.

But initially, she kept her suspicions about her father's involvement in her death to herself. She knew an autopsy would be performed, so she'd wait till she had all the information. But things with Martin got real weird, real fast. First, there was the funeral. So the McNeil children were shocked by their mother's death. They were grieving and they were focused on trying to figure out what happened, what went wrong. She'd been doing so well. But Martin was like super adamant. Let's plan the funeral.

Let's get this funeral done. Let's cremate her. Let's do it. They didn't cremate her to my knowledge. Okay. And so they moved ahead with the funeral. Michelle's funeral was held on April 14th, 2007. And at it, Martin spoke.

At length. About himself. and his life. He spoke about all the trials and tribulations he'd been through in his life. What? And he pondered aloud about what he might have done in his life for God to put him through it all. Like there's this clip of him being like, I thought I was your boy, God. And I thought I did everything right and I lived my life for you. Oh, yeah.

Okay. He mentioned Michelle only in passing. Well, it was all about him. Uh-huh. Yeah. Then, at a luncheon following the funeral, he made jokes about being single now. Ew. About having to learn how to live the bachelor life.

Oh. Yeah. Hilarious. Oh, cool. Hilarious. What am I going to do? Yeah. And he, like, said that to, like, a whole bunch of people.

It's not like one person heard him say it. Like, he made the joke over and over and over again. I'm sure he improved it every time. I'm sure he did. Then the night of the funeral. Can you imagine? No, I can't fucking imagine. You're at a funeral luncheon and you talk to the grieving spouse and they're like, I

guess I'm single now. Okay. I will say. Hmm. Okay. I will say. Hmm. Okay. So my, my grandfather, my, no, sorry. My grandmother is a member of the LDS church. So I grew up around a lot of Mormons.

I have a lot of several friends that are Mormon. I do think that they see death very differently than a lot of people because of their beliefs on the afterlife. Oh, OK. OK. I remember being really shocked by one of my grandma's friends who very quickly after her husband's death was like, thank God I don't have to put up those Christmas, those gaudy Christmas decorations he loved. Hmm. OK. Yeah.

So they do, they see their time on Earth as a very short portion of their life, and they will spend eternity with each other. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you really, if that's your belief, then maybe it isn't. You've been separated for a small amount of time. Okay.

So that's, and you will go on to spend eternity together. That's an interesting point. All right. All right. So maybe I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there. Maybe. Well, and okay, if we're given benefit of the doubt, we all grieve in different ways and some people get weird about grief.

Exactly. Exactly. I think he's just a weird murderer though. I agree. So, okay. So he gives the weird speech at the funeral, makes the weird murderer though. I agree. So, okay. So he gives the weird speech at the funeral, makes the weird jokes

at the luncheon and then the night of the funeral a neighbor comes over to check on Martin and the neighbor just thought Martin acted super fucking weird.

Didn't seem sad at all. Gave her a tour of the house and pointed out all of these home improvement projects that he was going to be doing. Yeah. And like you just said, people grieve in all kinds of weird ways. That's pretty fucking weird.

Yeah. I mean, in that situation, aren't you just supposed to take the casserole? Yeah. If you need to talk, you talk. Yeah. You need to talk about the improvements you're going to make. Yeah, I guess. See this wall?

I think it's going to come down. I think we're going to do a little concept. Yeah. Really open this up here. You ever heard a ship lap, Sharon? Then the next morning, he went to that same neighbor's house and was like, hey, here are some flowers from the funeral. I thought you might enjoy having these.

Okay. You know, I hate having to defend this guy. I really do. But my memory from my grandpa's funeral was just a ton of people sent flowers, a ton of people sent plants, and it was very nice. But my grandma was just like, what am I going to do with all these? And so she, you know, a lot of us took home stuff. Did you take any to your neighbor? No.

Now, I was going to say that. Now, we're a big family. Yes. So, you know, it wasn't some big thing. But let's say you didn't necessarily have a lot of people you could give it to. Like eight children? Okay, okay. Some of those were like small children.

You're not going to say, hey, Timmy, take this piece, Lily. You're right. But I can see maybe you would be like, you know what? I don't want to care for, you know, 25 new houseplants. Yeah. This neighbor lady brought me a cheesy potato casserole. Funeral potatoes are actually what the Mormons call them. Oh, my God.

They're so good. They're so good. I know it's tacky, but I want some right now. The second you said funeral dinner. You're salivating. Yeah. Like, I know what's at a funeral dinner. It's good. Yeah, like I know what's at a funeral dinner. It's good.

Yeah. Okay, so he's acting kind of weird. And then three days after the funeral, Martin sat his adult children down. And he told them that he needed to make some changes. He told them he was going to hire a nanny to help with the younger children. He just didn't think he could handle them on his own. Sure. He then asked his oldest daughter, Rachel, to accompany him to the temple to pray with him about the nanny. His daughters thought... Oh, God. Some hot young thing. Please bring some young hottie into my life, God. His daughters

thought this was super odd because despite the fact that he was active in their church they'd never considered their father spiritual and they couldn't have told you the last time he went to the temple but thinking this too might be just like a weird way he was grieving. Rachel agreed to go with him. So they go to the temple. And as Rachel and Martin were walking up to the temple, a woman was walking out. And she walked up to Rachel and Martin. And what followed was a super real and not at all scripted conversation where this woman told Rachel and Martin that

she recognized them from Michelle's funeral and she was so sorry for everything they were going through. And then Martin was like, oh, wow. Thank you. That's so kind of you. Woman, I have for sure never met. We're just here to pray about hiring a nanny to take care of all of the kids my dead wife has left behind.

Oh my God, what's that? I just happen to be a nanny and I'm looking for work. I am just a humble man seeking God's guidance. Okay, oh God. And then this random woman was like, oh, my goodness. You don't say. I am but an honest nanny in need of a job. Wow.

It's like God brought them all together that day. And here we are meeting for the very first time at the temple of the Lord. Perhaps this is meant to be. And Martin said, why, yes, I do believe you are correct. This must be a sign from God. And scene. Bravo. Bravo.

So obviously this is a dramatized version of the interaction, but like barely. Like that's almost exactly how it went down. Rachel left that chance meeting in air quotes, thinking for the first time that something was off with her mother's death. The whole thing was very obviously scripted. But for now... Shit, is this the woman he's been having the affair with? Oh, my God. Oh, gross. Is it?

Yes, it is. Oh, damn it. But for now, Rachel kept her concerns to herself, but not for long. A day or so later, Martin called Alexis to tell her he had great news. He'd hired a nanny. And it was the craziest story. They literally ran into each other at the temple. Super cool, huh?

Amazing. He told Alexis that the new nanny was Gypsy Jillian Willis. And she had met the kids and everything was going great and yada, yada, yada. And Alexis stopped her dad. She said, what's her name? And Martin hemmed and hawed for a moment. He was like, oh, it's Jill, Jill, Gypsy Willis.

But I think she goes by Jillian. And Alexis was shocked. That was a name. Pepsi Willis, but I think she goes by Jillian. And Alexis was shocked. That was a name she was familiar with. That was the name of the woman Michelle thought Martin was having an affair with. She was the owner of the number that had showed up over and over again on Martin's call history. This is awful. Yeah.

And Alexis called him on it. She told him that she knew that woman's name and that she knew her mother had accused him of having an affair with her. Mm-hmm. Following that conversation... I would become a murderer. Right? Mm-hmm. So following that conversation. I would become a murderer. Right. So following that conversation with Alexis, Martin called a family meeting with his three other adult children. And he told them.

Gotta manipulate the other three real fast. He told them that Alexis was no longer a member of the family and that she was not even allowed to speak to her four younger siblings. Oh, cool. Excommunication. It was then that Rachel decided she and Alexis needed to compare notes. It was clear that they both had their suspicions about their mother's death. But then the autopsy came back. The manner of death?

Natural causes. Her cause of death, heart disease. The number one killer of women in America. How could that be? Alexis knew her dad was a skilled physician and she knew he had access to lots of prescription meds. She knew he had to have had a hand in this. Lots of prescription meds. She knew he had to have had a hand in this.

She believed that Martin had given her mother a toxic combination of drugs resulting in her death, but that he'd known just the right combination to give to make it look like some kind of cardiac event. Yeah. Rachel and Alexis took their concerns to their aunt, Michelle's sister Linda, who also suspected that this was no natural death. This was a murder. But it would take years and tons of legwork on their part to get anyone to listen to them. In the meantime, Martin was up to some more real weird shit. Within like three weeks of Michelle's death, he had moved Jillian Willis into his home as a live-in nanny. When Rachel and Alexis showed up at the house one day to check on their younger siblings, they confronted their dad and Jillian on their shit.

They asked Jillian why she didn't cook or clean or take care of the kids. And Martin responded by kicking them out of the house and calling the police to have them removed from his gated community. Rachel and Alexis were, of course, right to question their dad's behavior because at this time he was in the midst of a fraud scheme involving his 16 year old adopted daughter, Giselle. So here's the gist of the fraud. OK. Jillian and Martin wanted to get married, but Jillian had terrible credit and owed a bunch of people a whole bunch of money. terrible credit and owed a bunch of people a whole bunch of money. And Martin had money.

So if they got married, her creditors would come after him. But Martin had the perfect workaround. He'd just give Jillian a new identity. Oh, you know, borrow one from his daughter, Giselle. I mean, it's not like she needed anymore when he sent her back to Ukraine where she was born. Oh, my God. Yep. Yep.

Oh. So almost immediately after moving Jillian into the house. Holy shit. Yeah. Martin went to work falsifying documents for Jillian under her new identity, Jillian Giselle McNeil. The falsified documents even included a fake marriage certificate and listed the date of Michelle's funeral as the date they were married. Well, isn't that sweet? Mm hmm.

And then in July of 2007, Martin sent Giselle to Ukraine alone. 2007, Martin sent Giselle to Ukraine alone. Under, like, the guise that she'd be reconnecting with her birth mother. Wait, so did he just send her? Yeah, he basically just bought her a one-way ticket and sent this poor 16-year-old girl over there to fend for herself with no arrangements, no money, no nothing. And she didn't know anybody, right? No. When Rachel, Alexis, and Linda figured out what he'd done, they went to work tracking

her down. But it took months. Of course it did. Finally, they were able to connect with a translator who had been involved with Giselle's adoption, and then they were able to get in contact with her and get her back to the United States. Oh, my God. But she was traumatized.

Well, yeah. She said she'd been calling her dad to come home, but he wasn't answering her calls. She had spent nearly a year in Ukraine alone and scared by the time Rachel and Alexis managed to get her back to the States. By the time Rachel and Alexis managed to get her back to the States. I mean, it's really lucky they were able to find her. A 16-year-old girl who was alone? Yes. In a foreign country?

I mean, it's foreign to her. Yeah. Yeah, she grew up in the United States. Oh, my God. He sounds like a great guy. Super great guy. So during that time, Martinette also made arrangements to send the other three children to California, where a family friend was supposedly going to be taking over their care.

But Alexis fought him on it and from that point forward, she took over as guardian of her younger siblings and worked harder with her sister and aunt to get the authorities to see their father for who they believed he was, a murderer and a fraud. They wrote letters to the governor of Utah,

to the county attorney, to the local investigators, anyone who would listen. They became amateur sleuthss finding out anything they could about Martin. And when they hit roadblocks, they hired a private investigator. In addition to learning about that check forgery scheme he'd served time for, which of course his daughters didn't know about, this is what they uncovered. Martin had joined the military when he was 17 by forging documents to make himself older. Then he had earned a medical discharge two years later by claiming to be schizophrenic.

Following his discharge, he had drawn veterans and Social Security benefits for decades. Oh, my God. Even after he had become a doctor and a lawyer and was making a very substantial income. He had never sought treatment for schizophrenia and his daughters had never seen any sign of it. And they believed it was a false claim Martin had made to earn a discharge and draw disability benefits. Yeah.

Yeah. Martin McNeil was legally a doctor, but he had cut some major corners and probably shouldn't have been in charge of anyone's medical care. First, he had doctored his transcripts to get into medical school. Oh, he basically stole somebody else's transcripts and like copied and pasted his name on them. Then he had done part of his schooling in Mexico before finishing med school in the United States. But when he transferred his credits from Mexico to the United States, he again doctored those transcripts, ultimately claiming more credits than he had actually completed. And he shaved almost a whole year off of his schooling. Wow. Wow.

Yeah. Much like his medical degree, Martin had actually obtained a law degree from BYU. But again, he'd used falsified transcripts with inflated grades and test scores to get into law school. And he'd never practiced law following his completion of the program. I don't. Why would you do that? I think like their belief on this was that he did it because people would question him less. Yeah.

When he's doing weird shit, doing shady shit. I have a law degree. I'm a doctor. You can trust me. Alexis and Rachel knew that their father had worked as a physician for the BYU Health Center for quite some time. But what they didn't know and what they uncovered during their investigation was that he had gone there after leaving private practice where he was banned from Medicaid billing for 12 years due to fraud. Oh, my God. They also didn't know that he was forced to resign from the BYU health system following multiple complaints about misconduct, misdiagnoses, and even a rape allegation.

Yeah. Oh. They also uncovered multiple affairs and some issues with pornography. Michelle had caught... Boy, that's pretty low. I know, it's pretty low. Michelle had caught Martin looking at pornography a couple of times. And one time when she confronted him about it,

he had grabbed a knife from the kitchen and threatened to kill her and himself. Police were actually called out to the house on that occasion. Wow. And finally, they put together what they believed was Martin's master plan to get rid of Michelle. And he'd been planning it for a very long time before her death. Approximately 16 months. That's when he'd started his affair with Jillian Willis. He knew he wanted to be with Jillian, but a divorce would be expensive and messy. Do they really do divorce? It's frowned upon. Yeah.

Yeah. It's definitely frowned upon. And you have to get permission from your bishop. Oh. Yeah. Definitely frowned upon. And you have to get permission from your bishop. Oh. Yeah. So he hatched a plan to kill Michelle and make it look like an accident.

First, he needed to make people think he was frail, incapable of physically murdering Michelle. So he started losing weight, a lot of weight. He told people at church that he had cancer and less than a year to live. Oh, my God. Come on. When a year passed and he hadn't died. A miracle. He changed his diagnosis and started walking with a cane.

It was a miracle. He'd survived cancer, but now he had MS. There is no record of either of these diagnoses. That's some really bad luck. Yeah. A schizophrenic guy who gets cancer and MS. And MS. His weight loss served another purpose as well.

It made Michelle insecure about her own looks. He took that insecurity and he used it against her. How much weight did he lose? Do you know? I don't know. Okay. I don't know. But enough to get like unsettlingly skinny. Yeah, I mean he was thin. He was definitely thin. But he'd always been thin.

Okay. Yeah. So he loses all this weight and then he also uses that as a way to play on Michelle's insecurities. He used it against her when she finally confronted him about the affair that she suspected he was having. He told her nothing was going on. He loved her. They'd been married for almost 30 years. It was her insecurities that were messing with her.

Maybe she should do something to make herself feel a little better. How about a facelift? Martin's suggestion that Michelle get a facelift came the day after she confronted him about his suspected affair with Jillian Willis. From there, Martin's plan continued. He took the lead at Michelle's surgery consult. She barely spoke a word. She did tell the surgeon that she was concerned about the health risks. She had some elevated blood pressure and was carrying a bit more weight than she was used to. Did this put her at higher risk for complications, she had asked the surgeon.

He suggested she make an appointment with her primary care physician to get just like a basic health assessment. Right. And her husband was like, oh, you don't need to do that. No, she did it. Okay. But again, Martin accompanied her to her appointment with the primary care physician. And her doctor said, yeah, it'd probably be better for her to wait. Let's get your blood pressure under control. You know, this is an elective surgery.

Let's get let's take care of your health first. And then he went with her to her primary care appointment. He sure did. And her doctor was like, yeah, you know, I am. Nobody needs a facelift. Yeah. And it's an invasive surgery. So, yeah, let's take care of your blood pressure.

Sure. And then you get the facelift. Yeah. But Martin shrugged off the physician's opinion, telling Michelle that he was being overly cautious and he just wanted to be able to prescribe her meds. Okay. And Martin went ahead and scheduled Michelle's procedure. At Michelle's final pre-op consult, the surgeon went over what he would be prescribing Michelle for her recovery. Hydrocodone, Ambien, nausea meds, an antibiotic.

But Martin was insistent that he also prescribe Michelle Valium, an oxycodone. The surgeon pushed back a little bit, but ultimately gave in to Martin because he was a licensed physician and he would be the one managing Michelle's recovery. What year was this? 2007. Oh. Yeah, they were way too loosey-goosey with the pain pills back then. Alexis, Rachel, and Linda were convinced that Martin had planned to kill Michelle with an overdose of those meds following her surgery.

And it would just look like she had died of complications. No one would think anything of it. Her doctor had told her to wait until she was healthier, and she'd gone ahead with the surgery anyway. Yep. How irresponsible of her. Yep. Alexis nearly foiled Martin's plan, though, by coming home to care for her mother and then insisting on taking over her meds.

But Martin had plan B up his sleeve. When Alexis went back to school, Martin regained Michelle's trust by doting on her. Then he drugged her, likely by crushing meds up into the breakfast he brought her in bed. Next, when she was barely lucid, he'd gotten her out of bed and taken her into the bathroom and drowned her in the tub. Oh, God. He'd left her dead body there long enough to make an appearance and have his picture taken at that safety fair that he'd attended that morning. And then he'd gone and picked up Ada from school. Upon returning home, he'd allowed Ada to go into the bedroom to check on her mom,

and she'd found her mother floating in the bathtub. From there, Martin had put on the performance of his life he'd called 9-1-1 and essentially yelled at the dispatcher for help and gave the wrong address initially this 9-1-1 call is nuts he's screaming at the dispatcher she's like i can't understand you she asks him if he's performing cpr and he's like yes of course i am i'm a physician and he's like, yes, of course I am. I'm a physician. And he's like screaming. This 911 call is so weird that it was actually saved and used as a training exercise. Oh, really? For new dispatchers. Yes.

Because you could get so flustered by someone screaming at you. Well, sure. Yeah. Because Martin was so weak from the cancer or the MS, whichever one you knew. Whichever one, yeah. He couldn't pull Michelle out of the tub. So he sent Ada next door to get a neighbor to come help. Oh, my God.

Let's traumatize everybody. So a neighbor comes and helps and they get Michelle out of the tub and Martin begins administering CPR until paramedics finally arrived at the right address. But Rachel and Alexis contend that Martin only pretended to administer CPR for two reasons. First, the neighbor said they never saw Michelle's chest move when Martin was working on her, like when he was blowing into her mouth, her chest wasn't rising. And the second reason was that when paramedics finally arrived on the scene, they were able to clear a lot of water

from Michelle's lungs. If Martin, a licensed physician, had been performing CPR properly, that water should have been long out of her lungs. Alexis and Rachel believed that they knew how and why their father had killed their mother. Now they just needed someone, anyone to listen to them. But there was one major problem. Michelle's manner of death

had been ruled natural causes. Right. This wasn't being investigated as a crime. Identity theft was a crime, though. So that's where they started. In January of 2009, Martin McNeil and Gypsy Jillian Willis

were indicted in federal court for multiple counts of identity theft. They both pled guilty. Martin was sentenced to four years in prison and Jillian Willis was sentenced to 21 months. In September of 2009, Martin McNeil was then charged on state forgery charges, which to which he pled guilty. Neal was then charged on state forgery charges, which to which he pled guilty. So these charges came after it was found out that he had acted as Michelle's attorney following her death and signed over the deed of the house, which was in only her name, to him. He did this to avoid probate court and to avoid paying taxes. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

He was sentenced to three years in prison, but it was to run concurrently with his federal sentence. Yeah. So he had forged her signature and acted as her attorney after she was dead to deed the house to him instead of it going to her children. Did her will say that it would go to her children? I don't know that there was a will, but in probate court, her adult children would have a claim to it.

It would percentage-wise break up without a will between her husband and her adult children. Oh, I didn't realize that. I just assumed it all went to the spouse. Okay. No, adult children have a claim at it. With Martin behind bars on fraud charges or fraud conviction, it seemed that the investigators were finally ready to listen to Alexis and Rachel about their theory on how Martin had murdered Michelle. They took the claims to the prosecutor, but the prosecutor refused to hear them because

this wasn't a homicide. Michelle's death had been ruled due to natural causes. So investigators took their case to the medical examiner. In Utah, the medical examiner is like the final word on a death. And so they went to the medical examiner, but the original medical examiner in the case had died. So they talked to the new medical examiner and they said, hey, look over this case. Specifically, look at the toxicology report. Michelle had several narcotics in her system, which to Rachel and Alexis was super problematic because Michelle had been off of the narcotics for a couple of days at this point.

You don't really. You don't go back. No. Taking them. And so the medical examiner looked at the toxicology report and thought, yeah, this is a problem. None of these are at lethal levels, which is why it wasn't flagged initially during the autopsy.

However, the combination of these drugs would have been toxic. the combination of these drugs would have been toxic. So in October of 2010, the medical examiner changed Michelle's cause of death to drug toxicity. But they wouldn't go so far as to declare it a homicide. They did, however, change the manner from natural causes to undetermined. Despite this change, it would be almost another two years before prosecutors believe they had enough to move forward. Well, it's so hard to prove. Everything is circumstantial. Yeah. There is no concrete evidence that even a murder has occurred here. Right. They could very easily say she had all these drugs that were prescribed to

her. She took them. She didn't know what she was doing. Yeah. And she died as a result. Yeah. Yeah. Finally, in August of 2012, just a month after Martin got out of prison on the identity theft conviction, he was arrested and charged with Michelle's murder. conviction, he was arrested and charged with Michelle's murder. On October 17th, 2013, more than six years after Michelle was found dead in the tub, Martin's murder trial finally began. The trial lasted just about three weeks and included testimony from Rachel and Alexis. They talked about all of the investigation that they'd done and all of the things they had found and how their mother had acted in the days and the warnings that she had given them and all of that stuff. They actually, the young daughter, Ada, who had discovered her

mother, her testimony, the prosecution wanted to put her on the stand and talk about what she had seen because Martin had given one version of how Michelle was found in the tub and Ada had given a different version. She said that she had found her mother face up on her back with just her feet out of the tub and Martin had said that she was like slumped over the edge of the tub. Very different versions. But Ada's testimony was kept out because she was only six. Yeah. And she had been asked a lot of questions by the family members following the death. And so they couldn't.

Yeah. Basically, her testimony had been. What's the word? Not good. Not good. Not good. Now, when something's like you may, no, I can't think of the word I'm trying to think of. Tainted. Tainted, yes, that's a good one, yeah.

She'd had too many outside sources adding to it, and her memories could be wrong at this point. Her testimony was not allowed in. at this point. Her testimony was not allowed in. The medical examiner got on the stand and talked about, you know, how the initial finding had been natural causes and they were led to believe that this was heart disease. And then on second, you know, when they went back and looked at it again, they had seen the drug levels. And yes, that would have been toxic. And those drugs were given to her. She had consumed those drugs like less than an hour before she had died. The defense, though, when this medical examiner was up there, was able to kind of poke some holes, not necessarily holes. But so the defense gets up and they're like, what made you

change this ruling? And they're like, well, the investigators came to us and said, please take another look at this toxicology report. And they're like, OK, the investigators came to us and said, please take another look at this toxicology report. And they're like, OK, so just just looking at the toxicology report that made you change your ruling. And the medical examiner had to say, no, not. Not just that. They also gave me a large file of all of the other things that had been determined in this case, all of the all of the fraud that had been uncovered, all of the lies of Martin's life, basically. And it was that in conjunction with the toxicology report that made me change the ruling. That doesn't look great. No, no.

Yeah. It doesn't look great in an already circumstantial case. Right. Two of Martin's mistresses testified. The first was this woman who he had had an affair with like a couple of years before Michelle's

death. And she said that Martin told her once that he could kill someone and make it look like they'd had a heart attack. Oh, Jesus. Uh-huh. This woman also said, and I don't know for sure. I can't imagine she said this on the stand because I don't think they'd allow this in.

This had to have been said in other interviews. She said that Martin had confessed to her that he had murdered his brother in the bathtub. That he had found his brother after he'd attempted to take his own life. And he'd been unsuccessful. He was still alive. And he was in a bathtub. And so he'd held him underwater. Oh.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he'd, like, bragged about it to her. She, she. Well, it's very cool. Someone struggling with suicidal thoughts. Yeah. Right.

That's great. She said that she believed that Martin was a serial killer and that these were not the only deaths that he was responsible for because he had made many mentions of mercy killings when he worked as a doctor. Oh, my God. No. Oh, I hate this. Hate it. Yep. Ate it.

Yep. Gypsy Jillian Willis testified and said that she had come to believe that Martin had killed Michelle and that she didn't know that that was his plan. And it's it's believed that she didn't ever know that that that was his plan, but that she she did come to believe that that that he had done that so that they could be together. Boy, that would be a real head fuck. Yeah, it sure would. Sure would. The defense, though, claimed that Michelle McNeil had overdosed on her prescription medication and that she'd been up walking into the bathroom getting ready to draw a bath when she collapsed and fell into the tub and drowned. They said even the medical examiner didn't rule this a homicide.

They had had to be persuaded by investigators to even change it to undetermined. In his closing statement to the jury, the prosecutor stated, it was an almost perfect murder. Martin McNeil pumped her full of drugs that he knew would be difficult to detect once she was dead. The jury deliberated for 11 hours. It was like 1 a.m. on November 9th when they said they'd reached a verdict. The prosecution was like, it's way too soon.

It's way too soon. They found him not guilty. But the jury came back and they found him guilty of the murder of Michelle McNeil and guilty of obstruction of justice wow Martin McNeil showed no emotion when the verdict was read he hugged his attorney and said, it's okay. On September 19th, 2014. Did he get to give like a speech about his life? He didn't.

To my knowledge, he gave no statement. That's a shame. On September 19th, 2014, Martin McNeil was sentenced to a minimum of 15 years to life in prison for first degree murder. Yeah. Okay. And then another term of one to 15 years for his conviction on the obstruction of justice charges. Concurrent? I don't know if those run concurrent or not. Damn it, Brandy.

I'm sorry. In addition to his murder conviction so there's a reason there was such a gap from when he was found guilty to when he was sentenced because in the meantime they tried him for another crowd oh lord almighty he was convicted in between there there of forcible sexual abuse of his daughter alexis no no in 2007 following the death of her mother alexis was staying at the family home and awoke to find her father in bed with her oh my god fondling her oh my god martin told her he was confused and he thought she was her mother Jesus but then he made a comment about how he was still a man

and had needs oh my god oh no for that he was sentenced to 1 to 15 years in prison and that would run concurrent with his murder sentence before graduating medical school that poor woman That would run concurrent with his murder sentence.

Before graduating medical school. That poor woman. I know. I know. That poor woman. I cannot even imagine. Yeah. I can't imagine any of it.

But then he goes and does that. Are you kidding me? Before graduating medical school, Alexis McNeil changed her name to Alexis Summers, her mother's maiden name, because she never wanted to be known as Dr. McNeil as her father had. Yeah. Investigators in this case said this never, this never

would have happened without Alexis and Rachel and their Aunt Linda. Yeah. They did all the work to put this together. Mm-hmm. It never would have even been looked into. Right. He would have gotten away with it.

Ugh. Ugh. Is there more? One more thing. No, I can't take it. On April 9th, 2017. Tell me he died. Martin McNeil died by suicide in prison two and a half years into his sentence. He was 60 years old.

Mm-hmm. What an awful person. Yeah. Yeah. It gives me the absolute creeps that her family just knew something was off. I hate that. I hate that for them. Yeah. That her mother said when they first got married, I wouldn't be surprised if he kills her someday. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. That's the worst part is I think a lot of times we know. Oh, yeah. People know. Yeah. People know. I'm not saying like everybody knows a murderer, but like I think a lot of times we know deep down. Well, and people, we question our intuition and yeah.

Yeah. I've known you were a serial killer since the fifth grade. Oh, my God. That was a really good one. Yeah. The whole fabricated meeting at the temple. That was arranged by God. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I'm sorry that you don't believe in fate. Yeah, that's so gross. Yeah. That manipulation. Oh, yeah. And that was Rachel with them for that, right? Yeah.

And that would feel so nasty to be there and be like, I am witnessing theater. I would feel so nasty to be there and be like, I am witnessing theater. And to that, before that moment, she hadn't questioned her father at all. She hadn't questioned her mother's death. No, she had. She probably had. Yeah. I think it comes as like just a little eek.

And then something pushes it over the edge because I don't think you can go from oh my gosh my mom died of a heart attack it's sad but you know that's what happened to all of a sudden I witness a weird conversation in front of the temple and now I think my dad's a murderer yeah ugh is right

you know what I think we ought to do? take questions from the discord? that's right is right. You know what I think we ought to do? Take questions from the Discord? That's right. So you may be asking yourself, what is this Discord? How do I get into it? Well, I will tell you, okay?

So just calm down. At the $5 level on Patreon, you get access to bonus episodes. You get into the Discord where we chitty chat and we say, hey, we're taking questions. Ask your questions. And that's what's happening right now. Did I do a great job? That was great. I'm a doctor and a lawyer.

Yeah. Seriously, how obnoxious is that? Oh, super obnoxious. Oh. Kristen, I feel like this is a good one for you okay they call me carly asks what conspiracy theory do you think may be true well i'll tell you what is just a fact jeffrey epstein did not kill himself i would agree with that okay so remember. So remember when I shared that, like, that conspiracy theory chart? And it's like, okay, these ones are like, yeah, you can believe in these and these aren't hurting anyone.

There's one about mattress firm, which I vaguely remember. I can't remember the basis of it, but I do always wonder how those places stay open. Okay. I remember you telling me about this. Yeah. And I, every time I pass a mattress place, I'm like, how are there so many of them? Yeah. How are they staying in business?

It's a thing we buy like every 10 years. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Now I have to see what the basis of that conspiracy theory is. This is how we get sucked into these things, right? It is. That's what it is. This is how we get sucked into these things, right? It is. That's what it is. What?

That they're laundering money. Oh. It's a front for money laundering. I would wouldn't believe that. I mean, I don't know. But I kind of know. Mattress firms miscome. Apparently, the basis of this comes from people wondering

why there are so many of them, why they are always empty, and then mattress firms' parent company had disclosed that there were some accounting irregularities. I bet there were. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I would believe that one. Okay, I've got this question here because I can't remember what the answer is but now i'm interested jillster wants to know who had their driver's license first and where did you go first together with one of you driving i can't remember where we went i know this answer what okay i even though i'm younger i got my driver's license first but i was scared yeah you you were just like a little delayed the day i got my driver's license first. I was scared. Yeah, you were just like a little delayed. The day I got my driver's license, and I remember this very much because I got in trouble for it.

And I'm still salty about it to this day. My dad doesn't know I'm salty about it. So he's going to learn. He's going to learn right now. You're going to learn today. Okay. So the weekend that I turned 16, you guys planned a birthday scavenger hunt for us. And we broke up into two groups.

Yes. Okay. And we did this birthday scavenger hunt. And I drove my group. I was at my mom's house that weekend. And my mom knew what we were doing. Great. Wonderful.

Go have fun. Okay. At one of the stops for the scavenger hunt, we ran into my brother and his friends. And they told my dad that I had a car full of people at the gas station. And so when I went back to my dad's house, I got in trouble for driving my friends around when I'd just gotten my license. But I had the other parent's permission. And I'm salty about it to this day.

Okay. Did you have the kind of relationship where you could say, yeah, but I had mom's permission? No, no. I was just like, you're right. I shouldn't have done it. Okay. Yeah, no. Well, you really didn't have the nuts. I didn't. I had no nuts. In my family, we would argue. No, yeah. I didn't argue. I was just like,

okay, yeah, you're right. I'm 16. I had no nuts. In my family, we would argue. No, yeah. I didn't argue. I was just like, okay, yeah, you're right. I'm 16. I probably shouldn't be driving around a car full of other teenagers. It probably isn't the safest idea. It probably isn't. It probably isn't. It probably isn't. But I had done it with permission. My mom knew I was doing it. You know what's

also weird? I was thinking of that scavenger hunt the other day, too. And you know why I was thinking about it? Why? I was thinking about, well, I don't know why it came to mind, but the thing that comes to mind from it is I was driving my group. And we were all pumped. And we were running around. And I remember my dad goes, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop. driving my group and we were all pumped and we were running around. And I remember my dad goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop.

And he was like, you are all really excited, really hyper. Yeah. This is how accidents happen. You need to drive very carefully. Yeah. I was like, get out of my way, dad. Yeah. What do dads know?

All right. Fine. I'm sorry. Dad's kind of had the same lame take on it. Hmm. Oh, bed, bath, and back seat says, do you say ope or more of an oop in KC? I say ope. Ope.

Yeah. For sure, ope. And I say it way more than I ever knew I did until this became a thing. I know. If you'd asked me, I would have said, no, no. No. But, and you know, like, there's that meme that's like the most Midwest thing is, Ope, I'm just going to squeeze past you right here.

Oh, God. That's, yeah. I say it. I say it. I know. It's so embarrassing. Yes, it is. I dropped something. I'm getting by someone.

Oop. We kind of, you know, go around the aisle in the grocery store a little too fast. Oh, oh, oh. It's all very cool. Oh, no. What? Skeezy Skunch says, have either of you found your doppelgangers? I think I found Kristen's on season one, episode nine of My Lottery Dream Home. Legit twins. Am I about to be offended? I don't know. I've never seen. of My Lottery Dream Home. Legit twins.

Am I about to be offended? I don't know. I've never seen. I'm sorry. I don't know that joke. I know. I'm just saying like I feel like I'm about to be offended. I'm going to have to look that up.

Have you ever been offended by someone saying I look like someone? Yeah. No, I don't think so yeah there is a girl that does a tiktok video that i think looks like me uh-huh but she's not like it's not like a celebrity right like yeah but no um and nobody's ever said it so that i'm like maybe i just think she's cute i wish i looked like her it's mila kunis no it's actually it's funny because it's actually a hairstylist. That's why I've seen it so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because it's shared in like hairstylist groups. And she's talking about a client of hers thought she was putting mousse in her hair, but instead she put like foam insulation. Oh. And she had to like, yeah, try and get it out of her hair. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Anyway, she wears her eye makeup kind of like I wear my eye makeup.

And so I think it's more of like, oh, I hope I look as cute as that girl. That's kind of sweet. Oh, God, I just bumped the table. Okay, this is not a question, but Sarad says, Kristen, I went to my local coffee shop in Renton, Washington, and they were filming an episode of 90 Day Fiancé. What would you do if you walked in somewhere and they were filming an episode of 90 Day Fiancé. What would you do if you walked in somewhere and they were filming an episode of 90 Day Fiancé? Oh.

This person says they wish they would have gotten a pic, but they were frazzled. Oh, yeah. So, okay. I know exactly what I would do. I would be totally casual, totally cool. I would first go to the bathroom, make sure I was looking as right as I could look. I'd get myself a coffee, and I would try to place myself in the shot somehow. And I would not be doing the, oh, looking at the camera.

I would want to be TLC's dream extra, where they're not having to cut away at all, because I'm just a casual woman about town. I'm just working on my novel. Oh, very professional. I'm not paying any attention to the argument. I'm not recording it for sure. I'm not like telling everyone I know that I'm witnessing 90 Day Fiance,

history in the making. History in the making, that's right. I probably wouldn't be able to be cool about it. But it would be my goal to somehow be in the shot. And then for the rest of my life, I'd be like, oh, maybe you recognize me. I was in an episode of 90 Day Fiance. I'm the girl in the coffee shop working on the computer. I looked really professional because I was on the computer.

Fun fact, they actually edited out some stuff, but I know all about it. So you can just ask me if you want to know more. Oh, this is a good idea. Best friends, yours, Yasmin, says, for a bonus video, Kristen, you made Brandy watch 90 Day Fiance. Can we get a bonus video of Brandy making Kristen watch a horror movie? Oh, my God, no. No. How about we just save everyone some time and we put up a video of me pissing my pants?

Would that make everyone happy? What horror movie would you make me watch? Hereditary. No. Why are you like this? Why are you like this? Why are you like this? No, that wouldn't be good because it doesn't have jump scares in there. I mean, that movie overall is terrifying, but it's kind of like a slow, like, thinker one.

Joke's on you. I turned my brain off. I need to, yeah, I'm going to have to put some thought into this, but I'm going to, like, what if I find, okay. I mean, yeah, I'm going to have to put some thought into this, but I'm like, what if I find, okay, what if I find a YouTube compilation of like the best jump scares? I would, I would end up closing my eyes. That's, I'm just telling you what would happen. I can't handle the jump scares. Okay.

And I have yelped in a theater. They scared the shit out of me. Bob Moss for Life asks, closest brush to death. Do you have one? Have you ever had like a near death experience? I don't know. Maybe when my fallopian tube got out. That's pretty.

Yeah. No, I don't think I was really near death or anything. OK, so I have always joked about how I feel like I almost drowned when I was a kid and my parents. You're never joking. I'm not joking about it. You're right. I really think. Your family jokes.

My family jokes that I was not actually near dying. And I've told that story on here before where I was little and I was at the beach and I got knocked over by a wave and I thought I was going to drown. So when I talked about that on the podcast, my dad was like, why didn't you tell the time you almost actually died? And I had totally forgotten about it. We were on a bike ride. totally forgotten about it. We were on a bike ride. It was like my dad and Lisa and Casey and I and my aunt Stephanie and my uncle Greg and my cousin Scott. And we were on a bike ride at Watkins Mill. And wonderful place. Wonderful place. Yes. Great place. But I was like really nervous about my pedal brakes. It was like where you, you know, you reverse the pedals to do the brakes. I was young.

I was very young. And when I would get going down a hill too fast, I'd put my feet down to slow me down. And there was this point where there was like this little downhill

coming up to a bridge and I was nervous that I was going too fast. And so I put my feet down. My dad had been yelling at me the whole time. Stop putting your feet down. Use your brakes.

Right. But of course, I didn't listen to him because, you know, he's my dad. He was just like yelling at me. Again, the dads were lame. Right. They didn't want us driving around all our friends for the scavenger hunt. And so I put my feet down because I'm nervous and I'm going too fast to like get onto this bridge thing. And when I put my feet down, my bike veered off the path and I ran into a tree.

Had I not hit the tree, there was a giant cliff drop off into this ravine that the bridge was going over. My dad was so mad at me. My dad was like, you almost just died. It's like, this is why you cannot put your feet down. You have to use your brakes. Okay. This is the episode about mad dads. My dad, there's something about, I mean, it would be terrifying as a parent to feel like you almost just witnessed.

Yeah. And that's exactly how my dad was like, because I almost missed the tree even. Right. He's like, had you missed that tree, you would have gone off the edge of this and you would be dead in that ravine right now. Yeah. Right. So my memory is as a kid, I was on a bike.

Yes. I was on a bike ride with my dad. This is so weird. I was on a bike ride with my dad. We were going down the street and there was some construction work. It was on a busy road. And one of the construction guys,

I saw, he waved to me. My dad thought he was putting up his hand to tell me stop. But I saw that it was a wave. So I kept going on this busy road knowing that I had permission. My dad thought I didn't have permission. And he fucking screamed.

Yeah. Stop! And I remember being so embarrassed. I'm like, what? Oh, gosh. But yeah, it's that thing of they think you're about to die. Yeah. And they love you so much.

I know. They got to just rip your head off. That's right. I'll kill you myself and we'll let this bike do it. Oh, I like this one, Kristen. Hmm. This is for you.

Grazing is Stealing asks, Kristen, when your book inevitably gets published, do you plan on narrating the audio book now that you have years of podcasting experience? Or if not, who would you want to narrate it for you?

Okay, I've actually thought about this because I think it'd be fun to narrate my own book. Yeah. But I also think that's, oh, God, it takes a lot of skill to narrate fiction. Yeah. Because you've got to do voices for every character. And they can't be like goofy voices i do voices but i know you're very good at voices though no but i think you could do it well thank you i think i would try my only thing is like i don't like to listen to a lot of

novels on audiobook just because i do get really really irritated like if somebody's doing a goofy voice or if they're not doing enough voices I just think that like the narrator really makes it it does so wouldn't you rather just be the one in charge of that well no because I don't know that I really have the skill to do it well gosh I think you do

alright I'll do it I just well I told you I read it but I just listened to Colin Joe's book oh so you lied I did I'll do it. So I just, well, I told you I read it, but I just listened to Colin Joe's book. Oh, so you lied. I did. I listened to it. And he does the audio version of it. And it was just, and it's different because it's not a novel. It's a memoir.

But it was amazing to listen to him tell his story. And I totally agree. If it's a memoir, especially if it's someone whose voice we know, a celebrity, then, yeah, you'd be like, what the hell? Yeah. Why isn't Amy Poehler narrating her own book? Yeah, exactly. Christy Source Rex asks, why would you survive a horror movie? I would not.

I would die. I would not survive it. I can't even play hide and seek without feeling like I'm going to piss my pants. So there's not a chance in hell I'm surviving a horror movie. Yeah, I don't know about me. I don't know that I can run, though. But I'm not a sprinter. So I'd have to have a really good heads up.

They'd have to be like he's a mile away and I'd be like okay. No problem gang. Let me put on my shoes. Did I ever tell you about the time I tried to race Norman and I was humiliated? Norm's super fast.

He is super fast. But he doesn't, like, I mean, I run all the time. He does not. He does not. But you know how fast he can walk.

He's an incredibly fast speed walker. This man can just zoom, zoom, zoom. And so one day he made a comment about how he was a fast runner and i was like you're not faster than me and he was like bullshit so i mean i was so cocky i was like fine and we were out walking in our old neighborhood and i was like okay we'll start right here i'm gonna race you to the mailbox. Three seconds into the race, it was clear.

I was in way over my head. And I was just like, oh, no. And he just sprinted off into the distance. So I really don't know how great I'd do if somebody was coming after me. Okay. I kind of like this idea. I think you're going to hate it. Oh, good.

Danny Mika wants to know, would you do an episode where Brandy has to talk about an art heist and Kristen has to talk about a serial killer? Oh, look at your face. I'd do it, I guess. Oh, you'd hate it. I would hate it. See, I mean, I'd probably hate, I guess. Oh, you'd hate it. I would hate it. See, I... I mean, I'd probably hate it, too.

Yeah. Yeah, you have done one serial killer, right? Surely I've done more than one. I think you've done one, and you were only able to get into that one because he had a whole fraud history before. And there was talk of nipple clamps. Yeah, there was like weird sex stuff that really drew you in. Yeah, it can't just be. Yeah.

I mean, the real punishment for me would be like, oh, this guy's a weirdo who murdered children. It's like, oh, great. And there's so many of them that you really can't talk about anyone in detail. And they're so young that they've not really lived enough to tell anything. So it's just really, really sad and bad. Sorry, Dani. It sounds like we are not into it. Someone has changed their name to David and Norm forever.

And then someone else has changed their name to Team David Norman. Honestly, the more I think about it, they'd be a wonderful couple. They would be a wonderful couple. They would be a wonderful couple. And it kind of makes me sad. I know. Should we rent them a room? Maybe. And just see what happens. Let them feel it out.

Yep. Raven Witch wants to know, if detectives searched your house because you were a suspect in a grisly murder, what one thing would they find that would make them the most suspicious? Okay, I have two thoughts right off the top of my head. First would be my internet history because. All that dungeon porn. It's just real sketchy. Lots of murderers.

Lots of. Yeah, yeah. And deep, deep dives into them. Ones that I haven't even covered. Of course, yeah. Yeah, this is a true passion for you. Yes, yes. You weirdo.

Yes. And then my, like, Netflix history. Yeah, those are all concerns. And then second would maybe be some kind of, like, the hair supplies that I have. Like, maybe I've tried to alter my appearance, you know, something like that. I think that that might look suspicious. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Norman has an array of tools. Oh, yeah. I think it would be the tools. Yeah. Yeah. Because they'd be like, oh, you know, blunt object here. Yeah. Clearly. Yeah. Yeah. And like'd be like, oh, you know, blunt object here. Yeah. Clearly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like the couple that have like that weird reddish brown stain on them. Just rust. Yeah. Just rust. Ashley, the teacher, says, this is one of the writing prompts I asked my eighth graders in my English class. Would you rather be itchy for the rest of your life or sticky for the rest of your life?

Oh, geez. Those are both terrible. Oh, boy. Itchy. You'd pick itchy? Only because there are drugs you can take. No. Nothing works on it.

No. You can't take an ointment. You can't. No, nothing works on it. No. You can't take an ointment. You're just itchy. And it's like, no matter how hard you scratch, you've scratched your skin. Clean off your body, Kristen. I almost did when I had poison ivy.

I know, in your anus. I did not have it in my anus, but I was terrified. It was kind of traveling up my legs. And I was concerned. I remember I had a virtual visit with my doctor, and she was like, are your thighs normally that size? And I was like, no! They're normally so svelte and tiny. No, I think I would still do itchy

because if you're sticky, then no one can touch you. Yeah, no, I'd go sticky, and then I'd just be fully clothed all the time. Like, you know, you have no exposed skin. That way nothing's... You'd be wearing gloves. Yeah, you gotta wear gloves. You gotta wear socks. You know, and that's gonna be a tough sacrifice for me because I hate wearing socks.

You would have to go bald. My hair's gonna be sticky. It would be stuck to you all the time. I'd be sticky all over my body? Every bit of my skin is sticky? Did you listen to the question or not?

It doesn't say sticky all over. Yes, it does. No, it doesn't. I just assumed I had like jam hands. Jam hands. It's a real thinker, isn't it? It is. You're willing to join me on the itchy side of things i'm not

i'm going sticky okay i'm going itchy i'm gonna wear my hair up in a really cute you know top knot yeah and it'll be really cute and until you have to take it down and then it'll get stuck to you and can never get unstuck so you have to shave it off. Stop it! But the hairs will kind of be stuck to your back hair. No! And so it'll look like you have back hair, like really weird back hair. No! So then you'll put on a turtleneck, but you'll never be able to take off the turtleneck. Stop it!

Just make sure you're thinking about your choices. Ooh! What? What? What? What? Hmm. Monster Baby, which A plus. Yeah.

That's great. Peanut butter in the fridge or cabinet? Oh, this is a controversial issue. No, controversial. What? It goes in the cabinet. Oh, we keep ours in the fridge. What?

Yeah. controversial what it goes in the cabinet oh we keep ours in the fridge what yeah i've never heard of people putting their peanut butter in the fridge how do you spread it it is more difficult yeah yeah what's the purpose i have no idea i'm i'm not really a peanut butter person. I just know that it stays in the fridge. What? I'm sorry to blow your mind. I've never heard of this. I had no idea people were putting their peanut butter in the fridge. It's a thing. It's got to be a nightmare to spread.

Peanut butter doesn't spread that easily at room temperature. Okay, you get a crunchy peanut butter. That thing is chewing up your piece of white bread. Well, first of all, no on both counts. No crunchy peanut butter? No crunchy peanut butter. Fuck, I love crunchy peanut butter. No white bread. I like the extra crunchy peanut butter.

I just got like a whole peanut sitting in there. But you've seen the bread I buy. It's like a piece of tree bark. It can stand up to peanut butter. Norman hates it. There's quinoa in our bread, I swear. Quinoa would make it very soft and fluffy. Yeah.

Norman. Cardboard bread. Yeah, Norman. Cardboard bread. Yeah. Norman does not enjoy the type of bread I'm attracted to. I like a grainy bread. Sure. I do. I like a wheat bread with a heft to it.

A grain. I like, you know, little chunks of stuff in there. Your bread takes it too far. You know what ruined it for me? What? I had heard, I read somewhere that you need to make sure that sugar or some form of sugar is not in like the first five ingredients on the bread. Yeah, it's like every bread.

And let me tell you, that rules out all the good bread. It rules out all the good bread it rules out all the delicious bread i'd probably eat a lot more sandwiches if i bought white bread because white bread is delicious well yeah but i mean it's not yeah anyway i don't know what the fuck you're doing with your peanut butter in the fridge is my answer i hope everyone's feeling very judged. Should we move on to Supreme Court inductions? I think we should. This is an honor bestowed on our patrons at the Supreme Court level. That's the $7 per month level.

That's where you get bonus episodes, bonus videos, into the Discord. Card with a sticker? Card with a sticker! I don't think we've mentioned the card with a sticker. Ever? On this episode? No, not on this episode. Your first mention. Everybody. Really dropping the ball there. Take off your hat. I don't know what you need to do to show respect to the card and the sticker.

And you get inducted on this very podcast. That is correct. Amber. Chewy chocolate chip. Alyssa McEachen. White chocolate raspberry chewy cookie. Sweet as candy Andy's best friend.

That's her Christian name. Peanut butter balls. Feeling froggy. Salted caramel chocolate chip cookies. Colby Liu. Oh butter balls. Feeling froggy. Salted caramel chocolate chip cookies. Colby Lou. Michael Damien cookies from Subway.

What is that? It's a joke like Macadamia Michael Damien. I remember when this person posted that. I was like, Michael Damien cookies. Isabel McTeer. I don't like cookies. Oh, my goodness. All right.

All right. Julia CF. Peanut butter blossoms. Clarissa. Chocolate chip walnut. That explains it all. I'm sure she's never heard that before. She's going to love it.

Lindsay W. White Chocolate. Debbie. Snickerdoodles. Courtney D. Rum Iced Pumpkin Spiced Cookies. Maggart. Classic Chocolate Chip with a Spranklin' of Sea Salt.

Abby Strohmeyer. Thin Mints. Valentina. Chocolate Crinkle Cookies. Tiffany Pendleton. Avalanche Cookie. Jess. Double Stuffed Oreos.

Sam Roberts. Peanut Butter Blossoms. Meg Patton. Peanut Butter Blossoms. Kat Whitehouse. Stem Ginger. What's that? Who am I to question?

Welcome to the Supreme Court. Man, peanut butter blossoms really. I mean, just, I had no idea how much people loved peanut butter blossoms. I maintain that it's because people like to play with the with the Hershey Kisses, like their little nips. Do you think they like to dip their nip in some cheese dip? Queso, yeah. Do you want to tell the people what you did?

I got a taco salad for lunch today, guys. And then Norm got an order of buffalo chicken strips for the table. He's a gentleman, Kim. And so I was leaning across to get a Buffy chicky strip. And what happened?

I leaned too far into my taco salad and I got queso right on my nip. She dipped her ample bosom into the queso right on my nip. She dipped her ample bosom into the queso. And then we had to record the video so that I didn't go try and get the queso off my nip. And queso doesn't just come off the nip. It doesn't. Alright, should we wrap up here? Yeah. Thank you guys for all

of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. And then be sure to join us next week.

When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the Undercover Mother episode of 2020, the Vanity Fair article Mother Justice by Christopher Ketchum,

plus reporting from the New York Times and a little bit of Wikipedia. I got my info from an episode of Dateline, articles for the Desert News by Sarah Lenz and Brian West, ABC News and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our

word for it. Go read their stuff.