Let's Go To Court! - 163: Ewell Family Murders & April Kauffman

Episode Date: March 3, 2021

Brandi starts us off with a very Brandi case. It was Easter weekend, 1992, and Dana Ewell was concerned. He was spending time with his girlfriend’s family and couldn’t get a hold of his parents. When investigators arrived at the Ewell home, they discovered a chilling scene. Dana’s sister Tiffany had been shot. So had his father, Dale. His mother, Glee, had been shot four times. The killer had taken their time with the murders. They left no DNA. No prints. No shell casings. The home appeared to have been ransacked, but little -- if anything -- was taken.  Then Kristin tells us about the murder of talk radio show host April Kauffman. In what would later turn out to be April’s last day on the air at WIBG, The Talk of South Jersey, she told her listeners that she “felt like she was on borrowed time.” She said that if she were to be “taken out” and sent to “see our creator,” she could take comfort knowing that she’d raised her daughter, Kimberly with the right values. April’s co-host didn’t look too deeply into what April said. But April seemed to know she was in danger. The next day, she was dead. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Family Secrets” Episode of 2020 “Freddy Augello, ‘hands dripping red with the blood of April Kauffman,’ convicted of her murder,” by Amy Rosenberg for The Philadelphia Inquirer “EHT man to be sentenced for witness tampering in April Kauffman murder trial,” by Molly Bilinksi for the Press of Atlantic City “Husband of slain radio host paid man to kill his wife 5 years ago, authorities say,” by Chris Franklin for New Jersey.com “‘I can breathe,’ says daughter of slain radio host after murder charges filed,” by Chris Franklin for New Jersey.com “‘I feel like I’m on borrowed time,’ April Kauffman said on radio before her killing,” by Claire Lowe for The Press of Atlantic City “Pagans guitar maker Freddy Augello sentenced to life plus 30 years in April Kauffman murder at Shore,” by Amy Rosenberg for The Philadelphia Inquirer “Ferdinand Augello sentenced to life in prison, +30 years for murder of April Kauffman,” Office of the Atlantic County Prosecutor “Atlantic County Prosecutor accused of mortgage, criminal investigation corruption,” by Dan Alexander WPG Talk Radio In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Two in a Million” episode Forensic Files “The Ewell Family Murders” by Lori Johnston, medium.com “Pure Greed” by Mark Gribben. The Malefactor’s Register “'Odd Couple' College Students Murder One's California Family For Inheritance” by Ethan Harfenist, oxygen.com “Dana Ewell” wikipedia.org “Dana Ewell” murderpedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a talk show host.

And I'll be talking about the Yule family murders. You really were enunciating there. I don't know why. Actually, I do know why. Why? I have something happening in my mouth. What's happening? I'm worried that I'm going to talk really weird.

Did you get some dental work done? No. No. Okay. So, you know, I have my lip piercing. Yeah. It's just my little stud. Love it. I'm probably too old for it. It's fine. We'll deal with that another day. Brandy, 87-year-olds can do whatever they want. Okay. So I have gotten like a little like canker sore right next to my piercing. Okay. But it won't heal because it keeps trying to heal over my piercing.

Oh, no. And so every morning I have to like poke my piercing and it breaks the sore back open, which sounds disgusting. This is disgusting. It's really gross. Welcome to the podcast, everyone. So my mouth is just like swollen. I think I'm going to have to take my piercing out.

How quickly does that? I think it'll close up pretty quickly. podcast, everyone. So my mouth is just like swolling. I think I'm going to have to take my piercing out. How quickly does that? I think it'll close up pretty quickly. Oh, no. Yeah. But I think I'll just get it re-pierced. Yeah. How long have you had it pierced? I have had it pierced for maybe like six years.

Mm-hmm. It looks good on you. I love it. So I asked David. I was like, okay, if I take it out and it closes up, because I think it'll close up very quickly. Yeah, yeah. If I take it out, do I go get it re-pierced? And he's like, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, if you love it. And I was like, but then I'm a 34-year-old woman getting her lip pierced. Who cares? Who cares? I don't know. I've maybe outgrown the lip piercing, but I love it so much. My God. All right.

So what I'm hearing is that you need a pep talk. All right. All right. I'll do it. No, if you like it, do it. All right. Yeah. All right.

Thank you. I appreciate that encouragement. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway, so if I talk weird because I have this my lip is just swollen at this point on the inside

oh it's not swollen like your lower lip isn't swollen shut up does it look huge you look like one of those rich ladies yeah what if this is all bullshit and I really just got lip fillers done and I didn't want to tell you? Oh, my God.

I'd be so offended if you. I would absolutely tell you if I got fillers done. If you told me some bullshit story. And what's worse. Yeah. Is I told you a gross story? No. No.

Here's what would be worse. Because, you know, sometimes people lie to you. Yeah. And it's so obviously a lie. But then it's like you feel embarrassed for them. And so you're like, oh, okay, sure. Good for you. Yeah.

If you had like the big duck lips and you were like, oh, it's just natural. It's a reaction to my lip piercing. I don't know. Oh, what? I can't move my forehead? Yeah, I'm just working out more. I don't know. I don't know. Oh, what? I can't move my forehead? Yeah, I'm just working out more. I don't know. I don't know what it is.

Okay. So this is legit how I got the sore in my mouth. What'd you do? I ate pie with a plastic spoon. And the pie was delicious, but it was, like, creamy. And there was, was like whipped cream stuck to my spoon so I did like a real slow pull out while I made sure to get all the whipped cream off the spoon and I like gave myself a spoon cut like was it worth it? No. Obviously.

Have you ever done like you got like a plastic spoon like just right? No. You've never had that happen? No, never in my life. I think that is so weird. You're obviously not savoring your food. Okay. What kind of pie was it? It was Heath Bar pie that Lisa made.

It was so good. Okay. Well, that sounds great. Yeah. It's like a, it's a graham cracker crust, a chocolate mousse base with some Cool Whip. You know, you mousse that,

whip it all up. I understand completely. Heath bar mixed in that. Okay. Topped with the remainder of your Cool Whip and crumbled Heath bar pieces. Yeah, that sounds amazing.

It's so good. It's lip-splitting good is what that is. It's lip-splitting good. That's exactly what it is. Well, I'm sorry about your lip. Thank you. Thank you. I'll recover, but I think it's going to either result in me losing my lip ring or having to get it re-pierced.

Stay tuned. Yeah. I think I'll just get it re-pierced because I reallyced. Stay tuned. Yeah. I think I'll just get it repierced because I really like it. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck the haters. Is someone hating me?

No, no one has told me. I'm too old to hate. It's all me. It's all me. I think the hater is inside you. The hater is inside you. You're absolutely right. It's calling from inside your body.

The calls are coming from inside my brain. The killer is already inside the house. Yeah, for real. For real. Fuck that mean lady in your brain. All right. Enough about my festering lip. Okay, I'm glad you said something about your festering lip.

Yeah. As you lip. Yeah. As you know, I need to do Invisalign or something like that. I have been worried about how it's going to affect my ability to speak. Oh, yeah. It probably will. Yeah. It'll probably be the end of the podcast. The podcast will end, but your teeth will be beautiful.

Beautiful. the end of the podcast. The podcast will end but your teeth will be beautiful. Beautiful. We're just going to keep going with this podcast. Doesn't matter how we think. Fuck the haters.

It's fine. It's totally fine. So are you going to tell us about a whole family that got murdered? A whole family that's murdered. Great. This case recommendation came from

Haven Monaghan in the Discord. And it's a very brandy case. It's got like a little sprinkling of Kristen on it as well. Is there some sex stuff? Is that what you're saying? No, there's no sex

stuff. Is Chili's mentioned? Is there a murder for hire? Oh! Oh! I don't know why I'm acting like I'm a genius when I'm just saying things that I like. Turns out I know myself more than you know.

Also shout out to Lori Johnston, who I don't know personally, but I'd like to. She wrote a great article for Medium about this case. Joke's on you. She's a total bitch. I'm just kidding. I don't know her either.

Lori, reach out. Reach out. Yeah, reach out. Touch someone. Is that a song? Reach out and touch me. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

That's Depeche Mode. Is that the name of the- Personal Jesus. What? Right? You're probably right. I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Question me in my Depeche Mode knowledge. All right. You didn't even know that was a band. Anyway, can we move on? Yes. We sure can.

Let me wet my whistle. Oh, God. You really are 87. Mm-hmm. I was watching an episode of Bluey this morning with London about... What's Bluey? Okay, Bluey's an Australian cartoon. Oh, okay, yeah.

Okay, so we had the listener who sent us the box of stuff from Australia, and she sent London, like, a little shirt, a Bluey shirt and, like, Bluey pants or, like, pajamas. Yeah. Anyway, so Bluey is, like, hot shit over here all of a sudden. Okay. Australia has known about it for a very long time. It just has arrived here in the United States.

They've been keeping it down under. That's right. London loves Bluey. It's got a cute little music that she just like gets really excited about. Anyway, I was watching an episode today where Bluey, who is a dog,

and her sister Bingo were pretending to be old ladies. And it reminded you of me. Anyway, they were having a whole argument. It was actually a very nice message. They were having an argument about how grannies, because they were pretending to be grannies, grannies don't floss because Bingo wanted to floss like the dance.

Oh, yeah. Okay, I wonder if what you were doing in your chair over there. I'm flossing very slowly because that's the only way I can do it. Yeah. Okay, I wonder if what you were doing in your chair over there. I'm flossing very slowly. Okay. Because that's the only way I can do it. Yeah. Okay, so Bingo wanted to floss, but Bluey was like, you can't floss. Grannies don't floss.

Uh-huh. This is just really, it's a really poignant message for me. Okay. Okay. So they looked it up. Oh, no, they FaceTimed their granny. Uh-huh. And she couldn't floss.

Uh-huh. And so Bingo was like, or I'm sorry, Bluey was FaceTimed their granny. Uh-huh. And she couldn't floss. Uh-huh. And so Bingo was like, or I'm sorry, Bluey was like, I'm right. Grannies don't floss. Mm-hmm. Well, then Bingo didn't want to play anymore because she couldn't floss if she was a granny and she wanted to floss. Yeah. And so Bluey went up to her parents to complain that Bingo wouldn't play with her anymore.

Oh, my God. I hope this is going to wrap up soon. This is ridiculous. It is and so their mom was like well blue you have to ask yourself a question because she said bingo won't play with me because i'm right that grannies don't floss and her mom goes we have to ask yourself a question do you want to be right or do you want Bingo to play with you? Kristen, stop nodding off. And I think this is a very good message. Because why couldn't Bingo floss and still be a granny? I felt very much like Blue.

I'm like, yeah, that's right. Grannies don't fucking floss. Anyway, taught me a really nice life lesson that being right is not always the answer, Kristen. Wow. Well, I'm glad you really took something away from Bluey. I'm even more glad that you told us the entire plot of that episode in depth. I think me describing it was longer than the actual episode.

I believe it. I believe it. I feel like I aged five years hearing that story. Anyway. They did like a really cute thing where they were just like. Oh my God, no. Napping because they're grannies. And they wanted to find beans.

Send help. Anyway. All right. That's enough. Anyway, I'm going to stop talking about Bluey now. Really? I'm sorry. What channel is it on?

Well, I don't know. I watch it online. What's the animation look like? It looks really good. It's cute. And each episode is like a little life lesson. look like? It looks really good. It's cute. And like each episode's like a little life lesson.

Like it's not always best to be right, Kristen. Sometimes it's better just to be fucking nice. I think you need to watch more episodes. That was a message that really rang true to me. Are you going to take notes next time you're watching the movie? I might.

Okay. Anyway, enough about that. Let's talk about murder. It was April 21st. How are the voices acting? It's actually wonderful because they have Australian accents. It's so good. I'm hoping that if London watches enough of it, she'll just start speaking with an Australian accent.

Okay. Peppa Pig was big when Alexandra was younger. And she referred to trash as rubbish for a while. It was wonderful. That is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's the end of that story.

The next episode was about how moms are boring and dads are fun. So dad took the kids to the pool, but dad forgot to bring all of the stuff you need at the pool. And so the pool was really boring because dad didn't remember all the stuff. And then mom showed up and brought it. And she said, huh, sometimes boring is important too, isn't it? It's a really good show. Oh, my God. It was April 21st.

It was April 21st, 1992, when Juanita Avenida arrived at the Ewell family home in Fresno, California, where she'd been working as a housekeeper for a few years. Immediately after unlocking and opening the door, Juanita knew something was wrong. The alarm wasn't set. The alarm was always set. Just a couple of steps further into the house, Juanita's gut feeling that something was wrong was confirmed. There on the kitchen floor were the bodies of Dale and Tiffany Ewell, her employer and his 24-year-old daughter. Dale's wife of more than 30 years, Glee Ewell, lay dead in her office just a few feet away. All three of the Ewells had been shot. Police were called to the scene and upon upon first glance, it looked like maybe the Yules had come home from vacationing at the beach over Easter weekend and had interrupted a robbery in progress. The Yules were a very wealthy family, though they lived fairly modestly.

Dale Yule owned a small aircraft company. He sold planes, mostly to farmers, and gave them flying lessons. And he was really good at what he did. His net worth was somewhere around $8 million. Damn. Okay. Yeah. So that was in 1992.

Adjusted for inflation, it's like $15 million today. Did you do that off the top of your head? No, I did. I adjusted it for inflation. Oh, okay, okay. Well, wonderful, wonderful. All right, all right. You seem so casual about it. Well, I mean, it's not that long ago to it for inflation? Wonderful. Wonderful. All right. All right. You seem so casual about it.

Well, I mean, it's not that long ago to adjust for inflation, but it's almost doubled. Well, it's like 40 years ago. 1992 is not 40 years ago. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought it was the 80s. I'm sorry. I swear I'm not that bad at math. It's 112 years ago.

it's 112 years ago his wife Glee had devoted her life to her family was Glee her like Glee is her given name and it was her mother's name yes wow

I actually think it's beautiful I love it yes so she was big into philanthropy and public service and then she'd also been a homemaker. And then their daughter, Tiffany, was in grad school.

It didn't take long for police to rule out the robbery scenario, though. While the house was ransacked, it looked to seasoned detectives like it was staged. Like every drawer in every room had everything pulled out of it and like thrown around. And it didn't seem like much of anything was actually missing. Maybe some jewelry was missing. But the biggest thing that made them think that this was not a robbery was that there was no sign of forced entry. And there was the alarm. It had been disarmed with the code. And the doors had been locked when Juanita arrived at the house to discover the bodies. To police, this likely meant that this was an inside job. The killer had been someone with the key and the alarm code and this wasn't a robbery.

And that's when Juanita told them that there was a member of the Yule family who was missing from the scene. The one who had killed all of them. Dana Yule. He was Dale and Glee's 21-year-old son, and he was away at school at Santa Clara University. When authorities reached out to Dana with the news of what had happened to his family, he seemed shaken, like he was visibly shaken by it, and he headed straight to Fresno. As the only surviving member of the family, he stood to gain an inheritance of nearly $8 million. So Dana quickly became the prime suspect in his family's murder. But Dana had an airtight alibi. Police had already determined that the Yules had been murdered Sunday afternoon or early evening when they returned from a weekend at the beach house that they owned in Pajaro Dunes. Dana had been with his family at the dunes that weekend, but when the rest of the family had left to head back to Fresno, Dana had headed the other direction to have dinner

with his girlfriend's family before they headed back to school. to have dinner with his girlfriend's family before they headed back to school. At the time of the murders, Dana was 200 miles away having dinner with a whole bunch of people, including his girlfriend's father, who was an FBI agent. Oh, okay. As alibis go, Dana's... Where did they have dinner? I think at home. Oh.

I don't know that they, at Chili's. They had it at Chili's. Don't lie to me. Don't you dare lie about Chili's. So as alibis go, Dana's was pretty damn solid. Yeah, I would say so. He has an FBI agent vouching for him. Yeah.

So investigators started looking into other possible suspects. Glee had worked for the CIA as a Spanish translator for some amount of time. Maybe this had something to do with that. I mean, it did look like a hit. Yeah. The shooter had killed both Tiffany and Dale with a single shot to the back of the head. They'd likely not seen or even heard the shooter. Glee, though, had been shot four times. She had run from the shooter and the

final shot had been delivered while she lay on the floor with her attacker standing over her. with her attacker standing over her. So investigators are trying to, like, get some information, but, like, it's the CIA. They don't, like, readily give up information, but it turns out that it was nothing. They didn't get a lot of information on what her job had been there, but it turned out, like, it was just a dead end. Okay. The next avenue the investigators went down was with Dale's aircraft company.

Dale had started with the company as a salesman under the previous owner, Frank Lamb. But it turned out that Frank was using the company as a means to smuggle drugs. Oh, shit. Yeah. I mean, not a bad idea, though, if you've got your own. I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not a bad idea, though, if you've got your own. I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. After his arrest, Dale had taken over the company and turned it into the successful business it was at the time of his death.

Well, I'm sure it was successful with the drugs. Yeah, I'm sure it was. Could the hit be linked to the drug smuggling operation? Again, this turned out to be a dead end. They couldn't take it anywhere. Damn. I know. That seems like a good one.

I know. At first they're like, okay, it's the CIA, obviously. And then, nope, it's not that. And then, all right, fine. We've got a drug smuggler. Turns out to be nothing. Then investigators started getting calls from extended family members, including Dale's brother. They wanted them to take another look at Dana.

He was acting super sus. Vicious. Dana's uncle told investigators that from the moment he learned his family was dead, he'd been super fixated on the will. Like at one point they were trying to make arrangements for a triple funeral. Yeah. And Dana was basically like, I don't care. Do whatever you want. When do we do the reading of the will?

Oh. Yeah. Gross. Yeah. And then when they'd actually gotten to the reading of the will and Dana found out that his parents assets had been put into a trust that he wouldn't have access to it until he was like 35. He'd been super angry. He literally pounded his fist on a table and yelled, why would you do this to me, dad? Oh, that's weird. Yeah. Yeah. So as it turned out, Dale's brother actually knew why he and Glee had placed their assets into a trust managed this way. So the way it would work is that like he would most of the money would go into a trust that was not accessible until Dana turned 35. Between now and then, he would be paid out like a small portion of whatever interest the trust was earning.

But that was at the discretion of whoever was decided to – was put in charge to manage the trust. And I don't know who that was. Yeah. So basically he was just going to get like a small amount of money for the next almost 15 years. Well, I mean, even then, interest on an $8 million estate, that's not going to be too small. Yeah, it's not nothing. You're going to be fine. Yeah.

Yes. Take it from me. That's what my payout is. So Dale's brother knew why they had set it up this way. There had been an incident like a year earlier involving Dana. So Dale had been born during the Great Depression and had worked really hard to build his fortune. It was not something he took lightly. And as I mentioned earlier, he and Glee lived pretty modestly. Their house was nice, but it wasn't flashy. Like they had $8 million, like their

worth was $8 million. Their house today is that they lived in at the time of this is valued at like $500,000. Well, is that because three people were murdered inside of it? No, possibly. It did sell for like $125,000 after the murders. All right. So I think maybe we got to look at the neighbor's house. But it's just like a four bed, three bath, 3,000 square foot home. It's not like a big flashy house. Right. It's nice, but whatever. And so they lived pretty modestly.

But what they did do was dote on their children and give them all the things they wanted in life. It was a joy for them to be able to do that. But Dale also felt like he was instilling in his kids the ideals that none of that would be possible without hard work. But in 1991, he learned that that lesson seemed to have been lost on Dana. Dana loved his fancy and flashy things. He drove a BMW, he wore designer clothes, and he carried a briefcase with him to all of his classes. What a douche. Uh-huh.

And he told people that at the age of 18, he'd become a super successful stockbroker. And that he now owned a company that brought in $3 million a year. No big deal. Mm-hmm. Is it called fake company LLC? Uh-huh. So here was the problem with that little tiny lie he told. Mm-hmm.

They did a story on him for the yearbook. No. About his company and his successful history as a stockbroker. He gave some stock tips. No. And then when the local paper heard about that, they ran a little story on him. Wait, they didn't, like, double check anything? I don't know.

It was just like, this kid says he's... Oh. And then his parents saw the story, and they were like, really, you little shit? Mm-hmm. You are a stockbroker making $3 million a year? Cool story, bro. Why are we paying for everything, then? Right.

Yeah. Oh. story bro why are we paying for everything then right yeah oh so this wasn't really a new thing for the yules though dana had always told lies like his whole life some were little like lying about where he was born and some were big where he was born yeah like he he was born in california but he'd tell stories that he was born somewhere else yeah just to be a little more interesting maybe yeah okay and then some of the lies were big like that his parents oh but this lie this was the final straw for Dale he was pissed

and he had threatened to cut Dana off completely that would be really fucking upsetting if you worked really hard your whole life you gave your kids everything and then one of them pretended that he was the successful one.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh. Ultimately, Dale hadn't cut him off. He'd continued to pay for schooling and whatever. But he and Glee had made those changes to their will in the wake of this incident.

They didn't tell Dana, though, huh? No. So detectives Chris Curtis and, no shit, John Philip Sousa. He's a composer. Oh, wow. And inventor of the Sousaphone. Woo! Wow. And inventor of the sousaphone. Woo! This is spelled differently

though than the famous composer. So they decided they needed to take a better look at Dana Ewell. He of course fit the theory that it was someone on the inside who had committed these murders, but obviously he couldn't be in two places at once.

They knew he was having dinner with an FBI agent that night. So the detectives went to SCU where Dana went to school. Now, by this time, he'd taken a leave of absence following his family's deaths. He was like back living in the family home in Fresno, taking a little time off school. the family home in Fresno, taking a little time off school. He had gotten his hands on some money despite the will because there was no contingency in the will for the life insurance payouts. So he'd gotten like a $300,000 payout for the life insurance of his parents, and then also like $197,000 that Tiffany had in assets between, I don't know, a house or something that she maybe had.

So, yeah, so he had a nice little stockpile of money. I mean, it wasn't $8 million, but. That's a shame. Yeah. So he took a little time off off from school and was back living at home so they started poking around at school talked to people who might have known would you be able to live in the house where your whole family had been murdered no no and somebody on so i watched i read a couple articles and watched the show in like a couple of different

places that said that like when he for the time that he was like living back in the house, they had had like, before he moved back in, they had one of those specialized crews come in and like clean the house. But then he would like take his friends on a tour of the house and be like, there's some brain spatter up there that they didn't get cleaned off. Check it out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not moving back into the house where my family

was all murdered. So these two detectives are at the school and they're just kind of talking to people that might have known Dana and they learn that a lot of people

thought Dana was a real douche canoe. I mean, he carried a briefcase to every class and he bragged about how much money his fake company made. Yeah. Dana was a real douche canoe. I mean, he carried a briefcase to every class, and he bragged about how much money his fake company made. But they also learned that he was a bit of a loner.

He really only had one friend, his former roommate, Joel Radovich. The two were basically together all the time. So much so that people called them the odd couple. Joel was kind of the opposite of Dana. Dana was pretty outgoing. He talked to a lot of people, just not a lot of people liked him. Yeah. Joel was very introverted, very shy.

Joel was very introverted, very shy. And he and Dana had become really close when they were roommates. When they asked Dana, though, about his relationship with Joel, Joel was like, oh, you know, we were roommates. That's it. But that's not the story they got from everybody else at school. Like they were always together. they got from everybody else at school. Like, they were always together. A few weeks after Dana took his leave of absence from school, Joel also took a leave of absence from school.

And he moved in with Dana at the Yule family home for a little while. And the two started taking, like, flight lessons together. They took helicopter lessons. They took plane flying lessons. Stuff was very expensive. Where was Joel on the night? That's a good question. That's a great question.

Thank you. Yeah. Super uncomfortable with this whole thing. So they're like, huh, these, this guy that,

that Dana said he's, you know, doesn't really have, just, you know, not my long-term friend for sure. No,

we were just roommates. That's it. Now you guys are like hanging out all the time together. You're living together again. You're paying for him to take flight lessons. Like Dana was footing the bill for all the stuff.

Right. So they put them under surveillance, both of them. They just start watching them all the time. And this is just was a very, very slow process because Danaana wasn't stupid yeah he actually had like an iq of like 180 which they heard him multiple times like making fun of the detectives and talking about how dem they were and how they'd never solve they'd never solve his parents murder yeah he called them burt and ernie and mutt and jeff And that just like lit a fire under these detectives. They were like, okay, we know it was this fucking kid.

We know this kid murdered his family and we're going to prove it. But it would take years. Wow. Joel was nervous all of the time that like somebody was going to question that they were doing stuff together. Somebody was going to question something. And Dana was like, nope, I'm way smarter than all of that. So they watched them communicate through an elaborate

system of pagers and pay phones. They had like regular pay phones that they would visit and they could watch them check a pager and call the number. But these two guys lived together. Why did they need to communicate?

So they could deny that they were living together, I guess. What? Yeah. I don't know. So even, yeah. So for a time they lived together. When they weren't together, then they'd communicate through this elaborate system so that nobody could like, they couldn't tap their phones and listen in on their phone calls.

So that nobody could like they couldn't tap their phones and listen in on their phone calls. Except that Joel was fucking terrible at this. And he wouldn't like pay attention to his surroundings at all. And so the detectives would literally just like post up right next to him at a pay phone and listen in to the entire call. Wow. They also at some point made a copy pager, which is like, I didn't even know this existed, but like they got a pager that they assigned like the exact same phone number to. Yeah. And so whenever Joel's pager would receive a page, their dupe pager would receive the same page.

Brandy, did you ever see The Wire? No, I've never seen The Wire. That's a real thing? Yeah. I had no idea that was a thing. Yeah, it's a duplicate. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, right. Yeah, so they use that. So they're seeing all the pages they're seeing so they can follow them when they're going to go make the phone call. But it's just, it's not enough. What they needed was to be able to prove that Joel had received payment and had murdered Dana's family. Yeah. They knew that that's what had happened. Yeah.

It was very clear that that's what happened. Joel had no alibi for the night. I don't even know that they'd asked him for an alibi at this time because they were just like, this guy for sure did it. Hmm. Okay. I don't even know that they had, they had formally, formally questioned him because they didn't want either of them to think that they were on to anything because Dana thought

he was so much smarter than them. They wanted them to relax. Yeah. So they see that they're spending all of this money and Joel has no job. But Joel is is doing all this stuff, too. He's doing the flight lessons. He's going on trips. He's doing whatever Dana's doing. So they start tracking Dana's finances. And Dana has blown through all of that life insurance money. Of course.

But he's still making all of these big purchases. He paid like for a semester of his girlfriend's law school. Wow. All right. Yeah. So they're like, okay, how is he doing that now that he's blown through all of this life insurance money? So it turns out because all of the family accounts had now gone into his name, there were like 47 bank accounts that he was now able to manage.

And so he was able to funnel funds all different ways through these 47 bank accounts. And he also managed to pilfer $400,000 out of his sick grandmother's bank account. He left her $2,000. And she was in a nursing home that required like a crazy amount of money every month. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. He took all of her money down until she had $2,000 left to pay for her nursing home bills.

What a sweetheart. Yeah. This reminds me so much of that case you did. The Texas one? Yeah, the Alan Ruby. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can't believe you remember names.

I can never remember names. Well, because, okay, to be fair, I had to look that up because I was like, is this the same fucking case when he started taking the grandmother's money? Yeah. But that kid, he took out credit cards in his grandmother's name and racked up like crazy bills in her name. Anyway, by this point, it's like 1994. So they've been surveilling these guys for two years, trying to figure out how they can prove that Joel did the killing and that Dana had ordered it and paid for it. So in 1994, they're like, okay, all right, this surveillance is not really getting us anywhere.

Let's see where else we can fill in the holes in this case. Let's look at the murder weapon. Let's look at that. So they focused on forensic evidence. First of all, they found almost nothing in the house. This person, whoever had done this,

had like not left a single hair behind and not left a single footprint behind, not left a single fingerprint behind. Nothing. What they had found were neon yellow fibers

on each of the victims. Like little tiny microscopic neon fibers. And then they knew that the Ewell family had been shot with some kind of assault rifle and the bullets were nine millimeters. millimeters. What they determined is that the killer had used Dale's own ammo to kill them. He had gone to the house ammo list. So this was a big clue to them. Like, OK, this is this is great evidence to prove that Dana set this all up because who else would know that Dale had 9mm ammo in the house and where exactly it would be. Exactly, yeah. So they found like this open box of ammo in the house. They were able to link those bullets directly to the bullets that were found in the victims.

And then they were able to trace that back to when they were purchased in like 1974. Oh my God. They were purchased at a local hardware store. And the guy, the owner of the hardware store. God bless him. Had kept every receipt from every year he'd ever been in business. And he was able to go back and do through his files. And sure enough, here, I purchased those.

I sold those to Dale Yule on such and such date in 1974. That is unreal. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So now they needed to find the murder weapon because it hadn't been the Ewell's gun. Uh-huh. In April of 1992, this guy, Jack Ponce, had bought this like specialty, like nine millimeter assault rifles, like a really rare gun. It just so happened that this Jack Ponce happened to be Joel's lifelong friend. happened to be Joel's lifelong friend.

I don't know how they, I don't know if it was the communications that they were watching between Joel that led them to this Jack guy. For whatever reason, they end up with this Jack guy and they're like, does this guy have any guns? And sure enough, he has a nine millimeter assault rifle, a very rare gun. And so they questioned him about it. And he said, no, I don't, I don't, no, I don't have an assault rifle. And they're like, but, Jim, here's the receipt from when you bought it. And he's like, oh, that gun? Oh, my gosh, I totally forgot.

I bought that for myself because I was having a possum problem. Possums all over my attic. And so, of course, I went out and bought an assault rifle to kill the possums. To kill possums within my own home. Mm-hmm. That's correct. But, oh, yeah, I don't have that gun anymore because it was stolen. The possums took it.

It was stolen, Kristen. Stolen. Mm-hmm. Okay, so they've determined that Joel Ratafish's, like, best childhood friend is the owner of a really rare nine millimeter gun. And so they're talking to him and he's like, oh, yeah, by the way, I lost that gun. I don't have that gun anymore. has had, has ordered some books and had them sent to Jack so that there wouldn't be like a tracking that he bought them. Okay. And so they're like, hey, where are those books that you received?

And he's like, oh, well, it's just a, it's just a package that he had sent here. I didn't, I don't really know what's in it, but here it is. It's been opened. Yeah, yeah. And so they look through it. And there is a book about how to be a hitman. Oh. And there is a book with instructions on how to make a homemade silencer for a semi-automatic weapon.

Well, okay then. And do you know what it involves? Hmm. Tennis balls, which are made of neon yellow fibers. Okay, I'm really glad I didn't make my guess earlier. What were you going to guess? It's really stupid. Well, first I was like, was he wearing something like neon? That seems like a really bad move, like a hitman.

And then I was like, well, maybe it was some sort of disguise. Maybe it was like, you know, construction vests. I don't think that's a bad idea. Except I don't think you'd probably wear anything neon while you're being a hitman. Well, but like my thing is like if a construction worker came to my house, like I wouldn't be like, oh, come on in. And do you want to murder everyone in here while you're at it? Anyway.

Yeah. Anyway, so I'm glad I didn't say that out loud. No, I've said it out loud. No, you've said it. So here we are. Here we are. Hope you're happy. So this is like, this like fills in a bunch of holes for them.

Okay, that explains the fibers. This is where he got the gun. I'm stuffed. All your holes are stuffed, Kristen. That's right. Fills in all the holes. That's what you said it yourself. All the holes.

So then they sit Jack down and they're like, listen, we filled all your holes. We have, we're going to fill your holes. And he was intimidated. He was. Yeah, he was.

And they were like, we know that you provided a weapon here. We can do this the hard way or the easy way. But Jack told them everything he knew, which was a lot. He had provided the weapon. No, I thought the possums took it. Okay, cool. He provided Joel with a weapon, and Joel had gone to the Ewell's house that night after Dana or he'd actually gone like the previous day.

Okay. And like laid in wait for the Ewell's to come home. He had shaved his head and body completely bald so as not to leave any hair behind. And he'd literally laid in the house on a piece of plastic while he waited for them to come home. And he was completely, like, covered basically in a hazmat suit and gloves. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Can you imagine? First of all, it'd be terrifying already, but can you imagine someone coming up to you covered in plastic with a gun? No, coming into your house like that? Well, no, he's already in your house. No, yeah, you come into your house and that person is in your house. No. That's fucking terrifying.

Yeah. Jack told them that he had made the homemade silencer and assembled it, like, attached it, welded it to the gun. Why? I don't know. I assume he stood to gain money out of it, right? Like, you help me with this and I'll give you a portion of the money. Dear God. of it, right? Like, you help me with this and I'll give you a portion of the money.

Dear God. According to Jack, Dana was going to split his inheritance with Joel. Bullshit. I agree. They had made this pact to become millionaires by the time they were 25.

Joel was apparently one of the few people that knew Dana's story about his owning his own business and all of that was bullshit. He was maybe one of the few people who knew like a real side of Dana. Yeah. And so they'd made this pact to become millionaires by the time they were 25. And so. Boy, at any cost, right?

It was the way to do it. Yeah. to do it. Yeah. So Jack tells him that he, once the murders were over, once Joel had

carried out the murders, he had returned the gun to Jack and Jack had disassembled it and thrown parts of it

in dumpsters all over town except for the barrel. The barrel, for whatever reason, he had buried in an empty lot in L.A. Why? I don't know.

Maybe because it's the part of the gun that has, like, the serial number on it, so if it's found, it can be, like, it's too risky to throw it in a trash can. Huh. Maybe that's what he thought. Maybe. Like, that's the part

that can be tied back to him. Yeah. I don't know enough about guns, but that's my assumption. Okay, okay. And so they're like, okay, take us to where you buried it. By this time,

three years had gone by since he buried this at some vacant lot in L.A. And by some miracle, the lot was still vacant. Nothing had been built there. It hadn't been paved over, which happens all the time. Yeah, yeah.

And they were able to find the barrel of the gun, which had the holes drilled in it from where he had had to attach the homemade silencer. And a ballistics expert was able to clean it up enough to attach it to other parts of a nine millimeter gun and fire a bullet through it and show that it was the barrel that fired the shots that killed Dale and Glee and Tiffany. Wow. So they had all of this on Joel.

They have someone who walked them through and Jack knew stuff he couldn't have known unless someone unless he was getting direct knowledge from the person

who had committed the crime. Yeah. It was stuff that had never been in the papers, details that had never been released. So they've got enough on Joel at this point. They can arrest him. They can charge him. But everything they have against Dana is circumstantial. Mm-hmm.

They gotta get Joel to talk. Yeah. And that's my song. That's an excellent song. Thank you. Thank you. So they decided they were going to move forward. They were going to arrest Joel and arrest Jack.

And then hopefully they could scare Dana into making a mistake. And so they went to Dana's dorm room, like when he was back in school. Yeah. And they tell him, we just want to let you know that we've made some pretty big advancements in your parents' murder case. And he's like, oh, yeah? And they're like, yeah, we're making arrests today. And he's like, oh, we're making arrests today. And he's like, oh. Oh, good.

Okay. And they said, like, his face, like, just completely drained of color. Yep. And they said, yeah, we're arresting your friend, Joel Radovich. And he was just like, like, they could see his pants, the lump in his throat as he tried to, like, swallow every emotion. Yeah. And then they left and they waited.

Yeah. And he went to the pay phones and did the whole pager thing. And so then when he did that, they arrested him, too. They felt like that reaction was maybe enough that they could piece all of this together and get a jury to see. As circumstantial as it was, it's a pretty, like, it makes sense. Yeah, yeah. He's the one who has something to gain. Exactly.

who has something to gain. Exactly. And so they arrest Joel and Dana and Jack and Joel's brother, Peter, who had a whole bunch of knowledge about the murder as well. Oh, God. Yeah. Ultimately, they ended up giving Jack and Peter both immunity deals if they would testify for the prosecution. They needed it. Yeah.

Yeah. They needed that firsthand knowledge that, you know, someone's testimony putting them at the scene of the crime. And so they both took those deals, obviously, and testified against. Peter testified against his own brother and Jack against his friend who had been like his best friend since he was like a child. Yeah. But I mean. He's a fucking murderer.

Mm hmm. Of three people. Yeah. Jack, because Jack had provided the murder weapon, he would have been facing the death penalty right alongside. Wow. Yeah. They said they were going to seek the death penalty against him as well.

So they sought the death penalty against Dana and Joel when they were arrested and charged with first degree murder. And then Dana was also charged with conspiracy to commit murder. This thing like was so slow moving because once they announced that they're going to seek the death penalty that, you know, you have to get a whole different set of like, I don't know, attorneys and stuff who are death penalty qualified. It's a whole it's a whole thing. OK. So the trial didn't start until the end of 1997. OK. The judge ruled that no television cameras would be present in the courtroom, but he did allow a local radio station to broadcast the proceedings.

Huh. I guess if he thought maybe it was just audio, maybe. Less salacious? Yeah, I guess. I guess. So Dana and Joel were tried together with separate attorneys and very different defense strategies. With separate attorneys and very different defense strategies. So Joel's defense attorney was like, okay, this is really bad.

Our goal here is not to get you off. It's to keep you from getting the death penalty. And Dana's defense team, their strategy was, you had nothing to do with this. This was all Joel and Jack. What they did, they did that on their own. You weren't there. You had nothing to do with this. Prosecutors told the jury that this was all motivated by Dana and his greed and that he had promised to share his wealth with Joel if he carried out these murders.

Jack Ponce testified about how he bought that murder weapon and given it to Joel and then disposed of it. And then he testified about what Joel had told him happened that day when he was inside the house. On the stand, Jack is telling this version of what Joel told him happened in the house that day. And he walks the jury through the whole murder. He waited 12 hours in the house for the Ewells to arrive home from vacation. He had shaved his entire body, as I already told you. He laid on that plastic sheet. He didn't want to leave so much as an eyelash behind.

Right. When he heard the garage door open. So Tiffany and Glee had come home first. They had driven home from the dunes while Dale had flown home and then driven home from the airfield. And so Tiffany and Glee arrived first and Joel hid like in a doorway. And when Tiffany walked by, he shot her in the back of the head. She never saw him, never knew he was there. One shot and she died.

Glee heard Tiffany fall, came to the kitchen to see what the noise was. And that's when she saw Joel and ran to her office. That's why she was shot four times. Yeah. But the last shot she was laying on the ground, he was standing over her and she knew him. He had been a guest in their home like a month earlier. Oh, my God. Yeah. Then after killing Glee, he had waited for Dale to come home.

He changed his gloves and reloaded his gun. And then he waited in the same place that he had waited before, waited for Dale to come home. He changed his gloves and reloaded his gun. And then he waited in the same place that he had waited before, waited for Dale to get home. And as soon as he walked in the kitchen, he shot and killed him. During this testimony that Jack gave, there was a weird moment where he was relaying the story that Joel had told him. But he said, and I saw, and a lot of people think that this was like a slip up in that he was also at the scene that day. But he'd already been given immunity, so it doesn't matter.

There's nothing they can do. But yeah, a lot of jurors caught on to this and they believed that that jack was way more involved than he had initially admitted to being that he was likely at the house that day with joel there was a lot of complicated like like, forensic evidence that was given. Hold on. What do you think? Do you think he was involved?

I don't know. I think it could just be a slip when you're trying to remember stuff and you're telling, you know, this is how he told me. I think it's possible he was at the house. I think so, too. told me i think it's possible he was at the house i think so too yeah i think it i think it's a i think it would be easier yeah i think it would be easier for two of you to be there doing it yeah yeah i also think that the stuff he did about disposing of the weapon, providing the weapon. Building the silencer. That's a lot to just be like a helpy helper with this. I think you're right.

I think it makes way more sense that he was actually there. Actually there. Yeah. I think it's very possible. Yeah. And he got immunity. Great. Yeah. Don he got immunity. Great. Yeah.

Don't feel great about that. Nope. There was a lot of complicated forensic evidence given at the trial. And I think as a juror, this would have been really difficult because there was like this whole thing where they had to explain like how they communicated through all these beepers and pay phones. And it was long and drawn out and like it would have been super boring. But it's super important to establish Dana's connection to all of this. There was also a big explanation about how Dana was funneling money to Joel because they couldn't the prosecution couldn't just say,

look, he paid him $500,000 for doing this. It was little bits of money that were funneled through all of these 47 bank accounts to Joel. And then also he was paying for all of this stuff that they were doing as well. And so I think that stuff is so important. But I think as a juror, it would be like, oh, my God, this is so boring. And what does it even fucking mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the scary part about that type of testimony, because that's really all they have tying, tying Dana. Obviously, he's the one who stood to gain the most from these from these murders. Yeah. Well, we rely so much on

stories yeah and it's important to have a clear story that makes sense and if the story doesn't make sense or if you get bored halfway through it yeah like that story about bluey where i fell where you dozed off i don't know what the lesson was there yeah in all the trial lasted for eight months. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And the jury deliberated for 11 days. In the end, though, they found them both guilty of all charges.

During the penalty phase, though, the jury was split on both Joel and Dana's fates. And so neither of them received the death penalty. They were both given life sentences without the possibility of parole. Dana was sent to Corcoran State Prison, which is where Charles Manson was until he died. Brandy's close personal friend, Charles Manson. Side note. Until he died. Brandy's close personal friend, Charles Manson.

Just a little side note. About three years after being in prison, Dana claimed to have found God and Christianity. And he currently has a profile on a prison pen pal website. He describes himself as a finance graduate from Santa Clara University. He says, I was beginning my career in investment banking when some extraordinarily painful events turned my world upside down. Okay. Today, he's 50 years old. Joel was sent to Mule Creek State Prison, which is about two hours south of San Francisco, and he remains there today.

Other notable inmates there. Tex Watson, member of the Manson family. Oh. Yes. Very exciting. The only person who's excited is you. Lyle Mendez. Oh.

I'm sorry. Lyle Menendez. Lyle Mendez. I'm sorry. Lyle Menendez. Yeah, I knew what you meant. And obviously he remains in prison to this day. He also has a pen pal listing on that prison pen pal website. You want to write them letters, don't you? Maybe. Mm-hmm. Maybe.

Jack Ponce went on to become an attorney and continues to practice in Southern California. Ew, no. As does Dana's ex-girlfriend, Monica. Well, I mean, that's not. He paid for part of her. No, I agree. Yeah. I don't think it, but yeah, he paid for part of her law schooling. Well, hopefully she's doing some good in the world.

I hope she's doing. It's like the one good thing that came from that money. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. And that's the story of the Yule family murders. I'm kind of surprised Jack was able to get a law license. I agree.

Fucking yikes. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, obviously it's not on his record or anything. He's got immunity, so. Boy. Boy. Hate it.

Yep. Hate it. Yep. Ready for this, Brandy? I don't think you're ready for this jelly. hate it yep hate it yep you ready for this Brandy? I don't think you're ready for this jelly you're looking real low energy about the jelly

are you you feeling blue? feeling bluey feeling bluey I don't think you appreciated my bluey story I didn't it's a real

it's a I learned a real lesson Kristen do you feel like you struggle with's a real. I learned a real lesson, Kristen. Do you feel like you struggle with that a lot? I do. Because I like to be. I love to learn like little facts. But I think a lot of times that comes off as me like sharing that information comes off as me trying to correct people or me trying to be right about something. When that's not my motivation behind it, but I can absolutely see how that,

how it could come off like that. Do you like to be right, Brandy? I mean, of course I do. Do you have to be right? I should not have to be right. That's my flaw, Kristen. But not anymore, thanks to Bluey. Thanks to Bluey.

Shout out to the episode Family Secrets of 2020. Also, great articles from the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Press of Atlantic City, and NewJersey.com. Ooh. Brandy, you listen to much talk radio? I do not. Nope. Me neither. Never.

Not into it at all. But some people are. And that's where this story begins. Ooh. With WIBG, the talk of South Jersey. A woman named April Kaufman co-hosted a show weekdays from 2 to 4 p.m. Pretty short show there. You know, we do a two-hour show once a a week and I feel like it's a lot I would venture

a guess based on what I know of radio shows that it's not like a scripted research based thing do you listen to much talk radio? No see I feel like two hours a day that seems like a long time to be on here.

All right. All right. So just calm down. I will. All right. I'm just thinking of like, I guess it's all broken up with music though. Like an afternoon radio show on a music station is like four or five hours long. No, this is a talk radio.

Just talk radio. Okay. All right. All right. Obama fucked us in the ass. We hate Obama. You know how talk radio is. This is a very conservative station.

I mean, isn't all talk radio conservative? I don't know. I don't think it's all Rush Limbaugh all the time. I think it's mostly Rush Limbaugh. And then, like, some dude who's like, I sure do wish I was Rush Limbaugh. What about NPR, though? That's...

I don't consider that talk radio. How is that not talk radio? Isn't that just NPR? Isn't it, like, its own thing? Is that its own category? Yes. I don't know. It has its own thing? Is that its own category? Yes. I don't know. It has its own tote bag.

It's a separate dealio. I don't know. Okay. Okay. Maybe I'm an NPR apologist. I think you are. An NPR sympathizer. So she was pretty politically conservative and she prided herself on being quick-witted and telling it like it is.

The bleached blonde, outspoken 47-year-old told her listeners, I love being here to bring you the truth as unpretty, unvarnished, as unbuttered on the biscuit it is. Ooh, unbuttered on the biscuit? What the fuck does that mean? I don't really like it i i got okay i've got to say she seems she seems fine i i get the heebie-jeebies when somebody does the i've got the truth thing and i'm gonna tell it to you because it seems a little do? Do you not? Yeah. A little QE. Little, you know, everyone else is lying to you.

Okay. All right. I'm getting nervous. She also said, if you don't vote, I will find out and go into your house. I'm dragging you outside. Wow. Yep. Okay. Hey, I said dragging you outside. Wow. Yep. Okay.

Hey, I said the same thing about Biden. She loved talking politics, which I personally find very offensive. I don't think women should be allowed to share their political opinions. I think they should only talk about court stuff. Right? Right. April also loved talking about veterans rights. She could speak from a place of authority about veterans because she was married to one. April was married to Jim Kaufman.

Excuse me, Dr. Jim Kaufman. And they lived the good life. She had her radio show and he was an endocrinologist who had his own practice and they lived in Linwood, New Jersey, which is close to the Jersey Shore, bitch. No. I'm looking for a new endocrinologist. Is he still practicing? You do not want this guy. Okay. Great. Thank you.

not want this guy. Okay, great. Thank you. They lived in a nice big house with a three car garage and the house was beige and all the garage doors were really bright red and it didn't really work because the color scheme put way too much emphasis on the garage doors but that's not the point at all.

Just saying. Red garage doors? Like a bright red garage door. I'm not here for that. They've since been repainted. Looks much better. But it was like, did you see we have garage doors? I have an accent garage door on my house.

My front door and my garage door are both black while my house is gray and white. Yeah, but, okay. So is that different than red? Yes, it's different because the red is like a bright, cool tone. And then the rest of the house is more of a subdued, warm tone. So it's very clashy. It doesn't, you know, as opposed to like yours, it all goes together. It pops.

It goes together. This one popped. Didn't go together. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. I understand.

Yes. We can talk more about this. No, I'm I'm available. So none of this is the point. The point is that on Wednesday, May 9th, 2012, April was on the air and the show got a little weird. She started talking about her own mortality. She said, I feel like I'm on borrowed time. She mentioned her adult daughter, Kimberly.

April had Kimberly when she was just 17 years old, and they'd been through a lot together. And that day, April talked about how proud she was of the woman she had raised. She said, And now, if I were to be taken out, I'm telling you, going up to see our creator, I know I raised my daughter right with the right American values. You know, she's moral. She's a good person, a hard worker, a patriotic person. And that did not happen by a government program. OK, that's weird, right? I mean, I sure as hell think so.

Yeah. Her co-host, for some reason, didn't. I mean, I don't know if they had these talks often. Surely not. But like he didn't seem to make anything of what she'd said. Wow. I mean, if I said that. If I was listening. Okay, yes. If you

said that, like in one of our tangents, I'd be like, holy shit, what's going on? Exactly. Where's this going? It would be like after we were done recording. Yes. It'd be like, hey. Hey.

How you doing? Yeah, that thing you said, that was really weird. Let's talk more about that. Are you safe in your home? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But it evidently didn't throw up a red flag.

Okay. So they just rolled on with their show. But the next day was Thursday, May 10th, 2012. Do you think it's a flag that she's fearing for her safety? Do you think that's what that says? Yeah. Yeah. If I were to be taken out.

Yeah, taken out? Yeah. Yeah, that's a weird thing to say. Yeah. Because you wouldn't say that if you were thinking about I've got this illness or even if you were just kind of being more philosophical of like. Mm hmm. I feel like you just use different wording. Yeah.

If I were to die tomorrow. If I die tomorrow. Exactly. I think like. Yes. That's what you would say. You wouldn't say if I were taken out. Yeah, I agree.

OK. say if I were taken out. Yeah, I agree. Okay. So the next day, Thursday, May 10th, 2012, that morning, April and her husband, Jim, were doing their normal morning routine. Every morning before sunrise, Jim would get up and he'd head out to his medical practice. And at about 8.15 every morning, he'd call April and they'd chat for a while. So on that particular day, Jim got up, went into work, and at around 8.15, he called April, as usual, and she didn't pick up. He tried again, and again, and she didn't pick up, and she didn't pick up. And finally, he got a hold of his handyman and he was like, hey, would you go check on my wife?

Just make sure she's okay. And so the handyman said sure and he headed over to the house, which was located at 2 Woodstock Drive, Linwood, New Jersey. Woodstock, eh? That's right. Yeah, they've repainted the garage doors. It looks much better now. 7,000 square feet. It's a nice place.

Yeah. Nice cul-de-sac, it looks like. Mm-hmm. Lots of trees. Mm-hmm. I'm... What? Okay, I'm not trying to be a dick here.

Okay. Why is there so much cement around the pool? Okay, you know what? I was wondering the same thing. That is there so much cement around the pool? Okay, you know what? I was wondering the same thing. That is the little babiest pool you ever did see. And just the biggest patio around it. I wonder if big

cement got to them. They were like, you know what people really want? Cement. Yeah. Yeah, that is a tiny ass pool. It's a nice house. It's a very nice house, sure. And I should add, I have no pool.

So the handyman went over to the house, and it pains me to tell you this, but I do not know how he made entry into the house. Oh! Perhaps he had a key. At any rate. Okay, that was my question. Like, why the handyman? There's not somebody.

He wouldn't call, I don't know, her adult daughter Kimberly? Well, I assume Kimberly's at work. Kimberly's a pharmaceutical sales rep. Okay. And she's got two kids. She's wearing her sensible suit and she's got a rolling backpack with her. A rolling suitcase. Okay, I have this in the episode.

But I'm going to tell you now. All pharmaceutical sales reps are hot, right? Yes. They have to be. They have to be. Yeah. She has a live, laugh, love sign in her house, but I think we should be cool about it because she's cool. Okay.

I'm just saying. I'm throwing it out there. All right. But please, please withhold your Okay. I'm just saying, I'm throwing it out there, but please, please withhold your judgment. I will. I will. All right. No cussing,

no fussing. Have you seen that commercial? No. It's a super progressive commercial. It doesn't matter. Move on. Okay. So he got in

and once he got upstairs to the master bedroom, he discovered Kim lying face down on the floor of her bedroom. She'd been shot multiple times. Oh, my gosh. So the handyman called 911, and he must have called Jim, too, because Jim also called 911. And in the 911 call, he said, hello, this is Dr. Kaufman. I just got told by my house person that my wife is face down on the floor.

What? What? What? That's super fucking weird. What's wrong? The whole thing is weird. Hello, it's Dr. Kaufman. My house person has just alerted me.

That's weird. Well, I don't know that he said it quite that way, but I do find it particularly... Okay. He introduced himself? As Dr find it particularly. Okay. He introduced himself. As Dr. Cox. Yes. That's, yeah, like, who the fuck are you, buddy? Yeah.

When I'm trying to be more charitable about this, I'm thinking, okay, he's calling from his medical office. Maybe when you're in the work mode, you're just like, I'm so-and-so. Maybe a teacher is like. Maybe when he's making, Oh, when he's making follow-up calls to patients. Patients. To patients. Yeah. Hi, it's Dr. Kaufman

calling with your test results. Right. Yeah. You're pregnant. The rabbit died. Yeah. But yeah, I did think it was a little weird that on the 911 call he's like, hey, it's Dr. Kaufman. You're thinking, though, we'll be a little bit chiller about this. Okay.

Okay. He killed her, though, didn't he? Well, let's find out together. It's a wild ride. Okay. News of April Kaufman's murder spread like wildfire. And because of her prominence in the community, news trucks showed up at the Kaufman home. Helicopters flew overhead.

It was all so chaotic. And it really made people think about April's radio show from the day before. Had she known something was going to happen? Right. It sure as hell seemed like it did. Sounds like it. Yeah. If I'm taken out.

Yeah. But there wasn't much to go on at the scene. There was no sign of forced entry, no shell casings, no fingerprints, nothing appeared

to be stolen. But before we get into that, let's talk about her life. April had, I mean, this sounds like a terrible childhood. When she was 11, her mom placed her brother and sister for adoption.

So they went into foster care and April was raised by her grandmother. Oh, my gosh. Doesn't that sound awful? And at 17, she had her daughter, Kim, and she got married to Kim's father. And times were tough, but April was really determined to make something of herself. So she got her GED and she opened a salon and a catering business and a cafe. And with each new business venture, she slowly made her way up the ladder. And all along, she had this love of adventure.

She was super fun and she loved motorcycles and a little danger. The only thing that kind of sucked was her love life. She'd been divorced twice by the time she met Dr. Jim Kaufman. And initially, they seemed like a great match. Jim rode a Harley, and he smoked cigars, and he was a doctor. Did I mention he was a doctor? No, I've heard he was a doctor. Doctor, doctor.

And he'd served in the military. This was huge for April. She was very, like, she was an advocate for veterans. In fact, one news site described her radio show as a show for veterans. Cool. And here was Jim. Not only had he served in the military, he'd been a hero in the Vietnam War. Okay. He had multiple Purple Hearts. He had sharpshooter medals. He'd been a hero in the Vietnam War. Okay. He had multiple Purple Hearts.

He had sharpshooter medals. He'd been a Green Beret. Fuck. Yeah, the guy was no joke. So they got married, and at one point, April's daughter Kim was working on a college project, and she asked Jim if she could interview him about his military service. And Jim said, sure, but on two conditions. Condition number one,

she couldn't tell her mother about the interview. Condition number two, the interview tapes had to be destroyed after she finished the project. That's super weird. Why?

How secret? Okay, if it's that secretive, he's not going to talk how secret okay if it's that secretive he's not going to talk about it anyway right I think that's super weird and what's he going to say that his wife doesn't know yeah I don't know that's weird

is he just going to like spew a hot load of bullshit let's find out steamy creamy bullshit. By the way, be careful about how you're talking about a war hero. Okay. Okay. Is he not a war hero? So Kim agreed to those conditions.

She was like, all right, fine. And then Jim told her about what happened in Nam. Okay. OK. Turns out he was in Vietnam and the Viet Cong ambushed his camp and stabbed him and stabbed all of his fellow service people. They'd all been left for dead. And Jim summoned what strength he could. And he decided that he would grab all of his dead friends dog tags and take those dog tags to their families so that at least they would know what happened to their sons. And that's exactly what he did. He gathered all those dog tags.

Also, he carried dead bodies. And also, he was tortured. And also, he was a Marine. And also, he was a Green Beret. Oh, OK. I don't know much about the military, but I'm pretty sure Green Beret is an army thing. Not to say you can't dip your toe in different branches, but it seems kind of complicated. In conclusion, Jim was a war hero.

And usually like the different branches are not fans of the other branches. So I don't think there's a lot of branch hopping. Mm-hmm. So I don't think there's a lot of branch hopping. OK. You know what? I was just thinking that it hadn't occurred to me until you questioned why he set these conditions with this school project. Yeah.

When I was a reporter, every now and then someone would get nervous or say they didn't want me to record the interview. And I always hated that. And I, of course, always told them, well, this is for your protection and mine. It's so that I don't misquote you. But I always thought you're going to try to lie and say you didn't say something. Yes, that's exactly. Why would you not want me to record this and quote you accurately unless it's because you are full of steamy, creamy bullshit. That's correct.

Obviously not the case here because he did the dog tag thing, carried the bodies, was tortured, stabbed, war hero in all the branches. So, you know, he's this war hero. April's an advocate for veterans' rights, but their marriage wasn't great. And April's daughter, Kim, knew that it wasn't great. So when she found out about her mom's murder, she immediately told investigators that her mom's 10-year marriage to Jim was unhealthy. Mm-hmm. He was super controlling.

He always wanted to know where April was going and who she was going with. He controlled her financially. He was also kind of a weirdo. Kim said that she and her mom could be sitting around talking in the dining room, and Jim would just come in and turn the lights off on them. What? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's pretty weird. Yeah, it's pretty weird.

In fact, not long before she was murdered, April and Kim went to lunch together, and April told her daughter that she was planning to leave Jim. Oh, wow. She said something along the lines of, like, I've just got to get my ducks in a row or whatever. So Kim shared all this with investigators, and she didn't sugarcoat anything. She said that Jim had cheated on her mom, but her mom had cheated on him too. In fact, Kim knew some of the guys her mom had had affairs with, and even though she didn't think any of those men were responsible for her mom's death, she gave their names to police and said, you know, check them out, investigate away. But Kim knew who'd actually killed her mom. It was Jim. It had to be Jim. Over the years, she said that Jim had threatened to kill her mom several times.

And obviously he'd finally done it. Mm-hmm. That explained why there was no evidence of a break-in, and that explained why the killer hadn't stolen anything from the home. So, uh, kind of an open and shut case. Except, Jim had the world's best alibi. As good as Dana Ewell's? Um, I am going to say better.

Ooh! Around the time that April was murdered, there was surveillance footage. And I mean very crystal clear surveillance footage. He was at a quick trip. Of him walking into a convenience store. It was not a quick trip. I believe it was a Wawa. They love the Wawas in that part of the country.

Yes. Yeah. Plus, cell phone data showed that he wasn't at the house at the time of the murder. So he couldn't have been the one. Was it his house person? I don't know. Let's find out. Which is a weird thing to call your handyman, just for the record.

I agree. House person. That sounds like some I'm trying to seem richer than I am kind of bullshit. Yeah. Because, I mean, that house was nice, but it's not I have a house person. No. Nice. No.

It's I have a small pool. With a lot of concrete around it. Compensating with concrete. But, you know, just to be safe, within a few days of his wife's murder, Jim did hire an attorney. And not just any attorney. He hired Ed Jacobs, who most famously defended Bill Cosby, the world's wackiest rapist. It's true. He is the world's wackiest rapist.

It's true. He is the world's wackiest rapist. Find me a wackier rapist, I dare you. By the way, you should know that because Ed Jacobs is a big-time criminal defense attorney, close personal friend Nancy Grace does not like him. Oh. So she was interviewed for this episode of 2020. You going to do a voice? You got a Nancy voice queued up for us?

I quote her twice in this. I don't think I actually quote her in this part. So just hold your horses. I'm sorry to tell you. Nancy Grace wants you to know that the walls of Ed's office are covered with news clippings about himself. I thought you were going to say blood. That would be a real story. You know,

why is everyone ignoring the real story, which is that Ed has blood all over his walls. It was like figurative blood. Blood on his hands and blood on his walls. It really bothered Nancy because she's so famously humble. I mean, is that really like, I feel like we can just end it with he defended Bill Cosby.

The fact that he's got news articles about himself up on his wall, I don't know that that's really like, oh my God. I was fine with him defending Bill Cosby, but not now. That's right. You're on the line. I don't want that who's who of American lawyers flag up there. By the way, Nancy Grace's hair. It's a problem, Kristen. Okay, I have an honest to God question.

And I know I'm being rude. Okay. I am wondering, do I blame the stylist in this situation? Do I blame her? I also, like Nancy, have very dry hair with a mind of its own yes but i'm watching this episode of 2020 and i'm like have you heard of deep conditioner yeah yeah so is is it a problem that she's not conditioning beforehand is this the stylist can only do so much when she can only do so much her hair is over processed i'm guessing she's

coarse hair to begin with. And then it has been highlighted within an inch of its life. Correct. Correct. And so, yeah, there's only, you know, so much you can do.

Another one of the talking heads on this episode. He was bronzed up like you would not believe. And then he had on kind of a purpley lipstick that was clearly, clearly they put it on him. They were like, oh, it's not going to show up on camera. It's just going to like make your features pop.

It showed up on camera. So is that do they put lipstick on men? Oh, yeah. They put makeup on men. I know they put makeup on. Lip stuff? Oh, yeah. Yeah, they put makeup on men. I know they put makeup on. Lip stuff? Sure. Sure.

I mean, I think it kind of depends. Yeah, the lighting and the... Yeah. All right. All right. But I don't know. Just isn't... Maybe he just hit, like, a grape crush lip smacker, like, a little too hard before.

You know what it honestly reminded me of? Huh? And it made me a little too hard before. You know what it honestly reminded me of? Huh. And it made me a little jealous. Oh, okay. Like 10 years ago, I had this MAC lipstick that I loved that had kind of a purpley tint to it. I can't remember what the name of it was. I just remember I really enjoyed it.

And I was watching this episode of 2020 and I was like, that man! Alright. Anyway. And I was watching this episode of 2020. And you're like, God, I missed that lipstick. That man. All right. Anyway. Now I'm wondering if he did it intentionally. If he did it intentionally, good for him. I don't think it was intentional, though. It really seemed like the makeup artist was like, hey, here's going to be a natural look for you.

And boom, now he's got purple lips on TV. Maybe he was having like a circulation problem and someone should have checked on it. And he had to be resuscitated. At any rate. So Jim had this great alibi. He had this kick-ass attorney who unfortunately had clippings of himself on his wall. And around this time, Kim and Jim met up at a restaurant. This was her stepdad.

She was in mourning, and she wanted to talk to him about her mom's murder. But Jim told her he wouldn't go there. He said he'd been advised by his attorney not to talk about the murder. He told her she needed to realize that her mom's murder might not ever be solved. Okay. Can you imagine? No! You go to talk to your step-parent and they're like, well, I've been advised not to speak about this and I think maybe you should drop it. Wow!

And Kim basically told him, no. I'm going to keep working to find out what happened to her. That's my fucking mom, dude. And then she got up and left the restaurant. And to this day, she has never spoken to her stepdad. What restaurant was it? I wish I knew. I knew you were going to ask just to be an ass.

You don't even care what restaurant it was. I do care. I care so much. Hmm. Months passed. Kim met with Atlantic County Prosecutor Jim McClain. She wanted to know where they were at with the investigation. But all he would tell her was that the investigation was, you know, active and open, you know. Kim got the impression that not much attention was being paid

to her mom's case. And it wasn't just Kim. A lot of people thought that the case was going nowhere. I was going to say, as a high profile person, I feel like multiple people would be like, yeah, you know, that would be that would be like, would be concerned. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So April's former co-host went on a crusade on the 10th of every month. He got on social media and went on the radio, and he asked

people to call the prosecutor's office and ask for information about April's murder. But even that didn't seem to do anything. A year passed. Kim held a vigil for her mom, and a ton of people showed up, including a bunch of veterans. But guess who wasn't there? up, including a bunch of veterans. But guess who wasn't there? Jim. Jim was busy that day. I believe you mean Dr. Kaufman. Oh, excuse me, Dr. Kaufman. Yes. He was busy that day. He was getting ready to auction off all of April's belongings. What? Yeah. So Kim didn't even have a chance to get any of her mom's things. Some of them had sentimental value.

Of course they did. Some of them were family heirlooms, and they all got auctioned off to strangers. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Then, 15 months after April's murder, Jim got remarried. Okay, I've got to pause. A lot of people think this is super scandalous. I don't really think that getting married 15 months after.

I don't either. Yeah, okay. Yeah. But Nancy Grace does. Of course she does. Are you ready for the Nancy Grace quote? Yes. When did that start?

Now, the version we've got is that they started dating after April was found murdered. Now, that's some romance. She's outraged. I just, I don't find it outrageous at all. I really don't either. I don't. I don't. Nope.

The other thing, this is reminding me of the bonus episode we just recorded a little bit, and we won't, like, spoil anything. But the other thing is that even if, let's say, he'd been cheating on her with this other woman, which I don't necessarily think. It doesn't mean he murdered his wife. Exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah. So I don't know how Kim felt about Jim remarrying, but I do know that she was certain he was responsible for her mother's death. And it didn't seem like her mom was going to get justice.

So she took matters into her own hands. She found out that Jim was about to cash in on her mom's $600,000 life insurance policy. And Kim was like, no way. Yeah. Live, laugh, no, is what she said. So she looked herself in the mirror and she said, let's go to court. Kim hired two attorneys, Patrick and Andrew Darcy. They are brothers.

They spelled their last name D-apostrophe-A-R-C-Y. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seen that before. You have? Yeah. I've never seen that in my life yeah i've seen it what what well i always think it's not pronounced darcy then it's darcy darcy yeah good because that's exactly how i'm going to pronounce it from here on out okay if you google them the top story on their own web oh no it's okay okay that's Google them, the top story on their own web... Oh, no, it's okay. Oh, okay.

The top story is from their own website, and the headline is, Patrick DeArcy and Andrew DeArcy net $10 million settlement. Was that your stomach? It was! Are you okay? I'm fine! It honestly sounded like a cow.

Do you need a... No. It's all good in there. It doesn't sound good. Sounds like that taco salad's going to come shooting at you one way or the other. So Patrick and Andrew net $10 million settlement, right? Very intriguing. Okay. The story below the headline is two sentences long. Are you ready? Yes. Congratulations to Darcy Johnson Day partners, Patrick Darcy and Andrew Darcy,

on their recent $10 million settlement on behalf of their clients. The parties and circumstances of the matter are confidential. Well, then that's not a fucking story. Yes, it is. They are a big deal. They are a big deal. Please don't ask any questions. Shut up.

Very rude of you to want to know any information. What? Every story you've ever done. It's settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. You know, OK, from now on, any time we have a confidential settlement, we're going to assume it's $10 million and it's the Darcy guy who did it. So Kim, who, as I said, is a pharmaceutical sales rep and therefore is very beautiful, hired these two guys who both have creamy skin and the exact same smile to file a wrongful death suit against Jim Kaufman to stop him from receiving that policy. This was a bold move. And it was really Kim's only move because it was clear that a criminal case wasn't happening. Her only option was the civil case.

But then things changed because there was a new sheriff in town. Like literally a new sheriff. Well, actually, it was a new prosecutor, but that's not a saying. And this guy meant business. It was a man. It was a man. It was a man. Duh. Amanda.

It was a man named Damon Tyner. Damon had been a local judge, and he was so beloved that a pizza joint named a pizza after him, which is how you know you've made it in the world. That's right. Tell, tell Kelsaroni that. I know. Have you had the Kelsaroni? I have not had the Calceroni. What the fudge are you doing with your life?

You've not had the shamrock shake. You've not had the Calceroni at Minsky's Pizza, which is a Kansas City institution. That's right. You would love the Calceroni. I'm sure I would. I haven't been boycotting the Calceroni. It's just a shit ton of pepperoni. Yeah, which is my favorite pizza.

I know. I know. What's just a shit ton of pepperoni and cheese. Yeah, which is my favorite pizza. I know. I know. What's happening with your life? I'm just not living it right, I guess. It's funny. We were actually just talking about shamrock shakes last night. Really?

David, Caitlin, and I were talking about shamrock shakes. Yeah. And did they about poop their pants? Yes, because they've had a million of them. But Caitlin says they're out now, so maybe I should go get one. I don't like your wording. Maybe I should go get one. You've gone your whole life without one. You hear that they're out.

You need to just zoom. I need to leave right now and go to McDonald's? Well, judging from your stomach sounds, you need to stop at a toilet first. Well, judging from your stomach sounds, you need to stop at a toilet first. At least just throw a shamrock shake in there. That'll just settle it down nicely. Just some of my own experience. Drink the McDonald's beverage at home. Where you have close proximity to a toilet.

That's just advice. Not a Bed Bath & Beyond bag in the front seat of your car? You know what? Where you have close proximity to a toilet. Yeah. Yeah. That's just advice. Not a Bed Bath & Beyond bag in the front seat of your car? You know what? I am grateful I had that bag. Do you want to know what was on the judge pizza? I do. Cherry peppers, half sausage, half pepperoni.

I think it sounds delicious. Yeah, cut the peppers and it'd be great. Oh, my God. What's a cherry pepper? I assume it's like a spicy pepper, right? I have no idea. Okay, we got it. I like some peppers, so maybe I'd like it. Cherry.

You're such a picky little thing. Peppers. Oh, it's a pimento. Oh, yeah, I'd fucking eat that. i'd fucking eat that i'd fucking eat that so you know he's this local judge with his own pizza named after him but in 2017 he became atlantic county's first black prosecutor no word on whether the pizza is now called the prosecutor. Is that unusual? To go from a judge to a prosecutor? You know, honestly, I thought it kind of was.

Yeah. Unless you're moving to like a bigger area, I guess. Right? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Okay. That's a good. Okay.

I'm glad you said that too because I was a little like, huh. Man. I mean, when you're the judge, it seems like you I was a little like, huh. Man. I mean, when you're the judge, it seems like you get to do a lot of sitting. Yeah. You get to wear those cool robes. I know. You get a gavel. I know.

You get to sit way up high. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it seems better. It does seem better. Even if you're just in, like, a shitty courtroom, it still seems better. Yeah. And then you can eat your own pizza that's named after you and who's gonna say anything to you you can probably eat it while you're on the

bench that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying anyway when damon became prosecutor he made a pledge he said that dating back to about 1970 hold on what. What's wrong? This just in. What? My dad just texted me and said, salty? Really? So it seems your father has listened to the most sweet- Listened to last week's episode. Yeah, let him know how you feel, Brittany. Your mom gave you permission to drive that car full of kids around. He had no right to ruin your fun.

Do you want to respond to him? No, it's fine. So when Damon became prosecutor, he made a pledge. He said that dating back to around 1970, there were like 140 unsolved murders in the county. Oh, wow. Yeah, that seems really high. It's not a big place. And that was unacceptable.

He wanted to solve as many of them as he could. So he asked his staff, what's the low-hanging fruit? What's the most solvable murder we've got in this stack? And they said unanimously the murder of April Kaufman. Oh, wow. It seemed like her murder would not be that hard to unravel. Yeah. But the case had gone cold. April had been dead for like five years at this point. Wow. So Damon reviewed the files and he noticed quite diplomatically that it wasn't that the investigation had been done improperly, but there had been an omission of effort. Oh.

Which is such a polite way of saying that the previous prosecutor was a piece of shit that I can't help but wonder, Damon, you say you're from New Jersey, but is it possible for you're from the Midwest? Doesn't that sound Midwestern? It does. So within his first month in office, Damon met with Kim and her two lawyers, and Kim was over the moon. Finally, someone in power cared about her mom's murder. By that point, Kim's own attorneys had uncovered a lot of shit in this case. And here's how they did it. a lot of shit in this case.

And here's how they did it. In an effort to motivate one another, the two brothers would take pictures of Jim Kaufman off of social media, looking all happy and having a good time, and they'd print them out and put them on each other's computer so when one of them showed up for work that day, they'd be looking at a picture of Jim and his new wife

like enjoying the Final Four or doing, you know, fun stuff. Oh my gosh. And that would motivate them to get to work. And they did get to work. In fact, they did a four and a half hour deposition of Jim Kaufman. And in it, Jim was looking quite bronzed. Ooh. If I may offer yet another critique.

Yeah. His hair had been dyed to match whatever bronzer he had. It was a real monochromatic critique. Yeah. His hair had been dyed to match whatever bronzer he had. It was a real monochromatic look. Yeah. So in this tape, he talked about the moment that he saw April's dead body on their bedroom floor and how, thanks to his 30 years of medical experience, he knew she was dead. Mm-hmm. Just by looking at her, huh?

Took 30 years of medical experience to determine whether someone was dead. And he ran out of the house to vomit. Oh, okay. And his voice cracked and he dabbed his eyes with the tissue, but I didn't see any tears. And the attorneys moved on to other questions. Have you ever served in any branch of the military? And Jim had to say no. Yeah.

It was all steamy, creamy bullshit. It was. It was. How did he get all those awards? He didn't have any awards. He just said he had them. Yeah, and nobody's like, show me your bronze heart. It's a purple heart.

There's a bronze heart, too. What's a bronze heart? Grace done a cracker. I think a bronze heart. Oh, it's a bronze star? Anyway, show me your tin leg. A bronze star is for a heroic achievement.

I'm sure he had one of those too. I think a bronze star is going to be coming out of you soon. So Jim had to admit that he never served in the military. He'd lied to Kim for her college project and he didn't even know how many people he'd lied to about being a Green Beret. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, because nobody is like, prove it when you're talking about your being a war hero. No, you're just like, oh, my gosh, thank you for your service. Wow, how terrible that you went through that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And I think the fact that he's a real-life doctor makes it even less likely that anyone would question it. Yeah. Then he speculated as to who might have killed April.

He thought maybe it could be a veteran. Or perhaps someone in a motorcycle gang. Maybe the pagan motorcycle gang. What? Boy, that seems random, huh? Yeah. But that was what Jim was thrown out there. Maybe April had been killed by the outlaw motorcycle club, the pagans.

Now, 2020 presents it as kind of like he's saying it in this deposition. He does say it in this deposition. But I saw another source that said that the day she was murdered, he told police maybe it was the pagans. Yeah. What? Why? What's his reasoning for that? Well, you know, she sometimes, you know, through her work, met some unsavory folks and, you know, something bad could go down.

Let's find out, shall we? Okay. So at this point, there's a civil suit, there's a criminal case that's finally being investigated, and then the FBI got involved. Turns out the FBI was investigating Jim Kaufman for insurance fraud. So in the summer of 2017, they showed up at his office with a warrant for the insurance investigation, and Dr. Jim Kaufman answered the door to his clinic with a gun in his hand, which is what you call a power move? And so for 45 minutes, Jim was in a standoff with the feds. What? Jim told them, I'm not going to jail for this. Luckily, a negotiator was able to get him

out of the office and to put his gun down. But word got out around town about the standoff at Jim's office and And people started talking. And they were like, OK, had Jim pulled a gun because he thought they were there to arrest him for murder? Right? Like, what's the this that he's referring to? Yeah, exactly. So that day, investigators arrested him and took weapons from him and $100,000 in cash, which we've all got that laying around. That's relatable.

And Jim, of course, wanted to get out of jail and he wanted the weapons charges dropped. But the judge was like, dude, you were involved in a 45 minute standoff. I know you're an entitled old white guy, but buckle up, buttercup. You got to stay in jail you know what it was i was speaking so quickly and i was like oh my gosh i'm doing great and then just a random so he would have to stay in jail. Yeah. But he wouldn't have to stay in that jail.

You see, when Jim mentioned the Pagans Motorcycle Club, it hadn't been totally random. He was quite familiar with the Pagans because he did illegal shit with them. Oh, great. So during the day, Dr. Jim treated patients. But beginning in 2011, he began writing fraudulent opioid prescriptions for the pagans. They'd come in as patients and he'd prescribe them like a ton of pain meds, which they would then sell. In other words, Jim Kaufman was part of a drug ring. I was going to say, that could be the this that he was referring to. Who knows?

Pick a card, any card. So all this information was coming out. And around this time, a witness from the Pagans Motor Club came forward and said that Jim had inquired with them about enlisting the services of a hitman to kill his wife. Which explained Jim's perfect alibi. Yeah. He hadn't been the one to kill April, but he'd been the one to arrange her death. Prosecutor Damon Tyner believed that April found out about Jim's involvement in this drug ring and had threatened to expose him.

She wanted a divorce, but he didn't want to give her a divorce because he'd lose half of his empire. And when she found out about the drug ring, she tried to use that against him. But he'd used his connections against her instead. For roughly a year, Jim inquired with the Pagan Motorcycle Gang about hiring a hitman. And finally, one came forward. It was the cousin of a member of the gang, Francis Mulholland. The prosecution believes that Jim paid him about 20 grand to kill April, although some estimates have it much higher. And that on the day of April's murder, Jim left a few doors unlocked for Francis and Francis entered the home, shot April twice. Damon shared all this information in a press conference,

and that day he charged Jim Kaufman with murder, and he was also charged with racketeering. But here's the thing. Francis, the one who investigators believe actually pulled the trigger, couldn't be charged. What? He was dead oh he died a year and a half after the murder from an opioid overdose wow and those pills had been prescribed by dr kaufman

now another source had this as a heroin overdose. And Jim prescribed the heroin. I don't think that's how it works. When Kim heard all the details about the murder for hire, the drug ring, the overdose, she said she felt like she was in the worst made-for-TV movie on the planet. And it really was because it kept getting worse. At this point, seven other people were arrested and charged

in connection with the drug ring. And some of them were also charged for their alleged roles in April's murder. At this point, officials moved Jim to the Hudson County

Correctional Facility because they were worried that if the pagans knew where to find him, they'd kill him. So they moved him to maximum security. And while he was there, Jim died by suicide. Wow. The pagans knew where to find him. They'd kill him. So they moved him to maximum security.

And while he was there, Jim died by suicide. Wow. He left behind a six-page note. In it, he declared his innocence. And in some passages, he wrote in Latin. Nancy Grace said he quoted phrases that gladiators would say before they went to fight in the Coliseum. I read snippets of it. I couldn't find the whole thing.

I didn't see any Latin. But in it, he painted himself as a man who had naively, you know, been forced into this drug world by the pagans. They'd threatened to kill him if he didn't comply. They threatened to kill his family. They were the ones responsible for April's death. And also, April was the one responsible for him even meeting these people. The note ended with this. April came to me and said, would I like to go to a motorcycle rally and meet some of her friends?

I was slightly shocked, to say the least, that they had the colors of pagans. What does that mean? You know, he's just a naive young little thing. Oh, she brought him into this world. He's just, oh my goodness, who are these people? Oh, they seem like they're up to no good. Let me get my prescription paid. He signed the letter jmk md don't forget he was a doctor he's a doctor so to sum it up april kaufman was dead jim kaufman was dead the alleged hitman was dead where is the court stuff

well i mentioned earlier that seven other people were charged in connection with the drug ring yeah and i'm going to cover this stuff pretty briefly because good lord um the biggest case was against freddie ferdinand agello agello a-u-g-e-l-l-o j-e-l-l-o. It's represented by that Cosby guy. His nickname? Miserable. That's a nickname? Isn't that terrible?

That's a terrible nickname. According to the prosecution, he was the leader of this drug ring. And the DA's office said that he worked with Jim on April's murder. They contended that he acted as the go-between for Jim and the hitman. He's the one who went around for like a year trying to find this hitman for Jim. Freddie pled not guilty and his trial began in 2018. Why are you smiling? My dad just texted me. What'd he say? Patty cut this out, but he said, you hit a gas pump when you were learning to drive. Wait till London starts driving. You'll beg me for forgiveness.

hit a gas pump when you were learning to drive wait till london starts driving you'll beg me for forgiveness don't cut that that's hilarious you hit a gas pump i hit the i didn't hit a gas pump i hit the little cement thing that like keeps you from hitting the gas well no harm done you just needed your bumper laying there. At trial, a member of the gang, Joseph Mulholland, who was facing his own charges, said that he drove his cousin, Francis, to the Kaufman home that day to murder April. He said that Freddie was the one who'd arranged the whole thing and that Freddie even asked him about having Jim Kaufman killed in prison. Wow. By this point, a bunch of the other people who'd been charged had taken deals and agreed to testify against Freddie. Wow. They had members of Jim Kaufman's staff testify about how these biker types showed up wanting pills. April's daughter, Kim, also testified. But the defense argued that their client was a patsy.

He'd been set up by the other people. He was the one being forced to take the fall, even though he wasn't some big player in this drug ring. That's a pretty good defense. Honestly? You think it's true? I don't want to go that far. But and here's the other thing. And I've told you this before we started recording. The frustrating thing about this particular case is I didn't find like a good summary article. I found, you know, articles along the way. But overall, I wasn't like terribly impressed by the case against this guy.

Not to say I don't think he did it, but, um, it just. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, the defense's argument was he was the one just being made to take the fall. He was a fringe player in this thing at best. The bottom line was Freddie was just a laid back, chill guy who loved fixing guitars and running his sign shop. Oh, yeah. So it's quite fitting that your dad texted in today.

Is your dad a criminal mastermind? He is not. That's exactly what Freddie said. So this whole argument was he did not help arrange this murder. not. That's exactly what Freddie said. So this whole argument was he did not help arrange this murder. Yes, he knew that Jim Kaufman wanted his wife murdered, but so did like everyone

else in the Pagans. But he hadn't set any plan into motion. The defense also argued that the prosecution hadn't produced strong enough evidence. They weren't even sure what had really happened. They were prosecuting by multiple choice. Wow.

Good line, right? Yeah. But the jury disagreed. Ooh. Freddie was sentenced to life in prison for the drug stuff and 30 years for the murder. Wow. He was also found guilty of conspiracy to murder James Kaufman. He'll be eligible for parole when he's 117.

Wow. I watched. I don't think he'll live to be 117, Kristen. Just you wait. He looks like he's in pretty good shape. So I watched just a little clip of an interview with him after he was in prison, and he talked about arguments he had with his own defense attorneys and how he had wanted to take the stand. And they had told him, no, it was a terrible idea. After hearing him speak, I think he should have taken the stand.

You know, well, I guess it's easy to say this now when he's going to be in prison for forever. But just hearing him speak, I think it couldn't have hurt. Yeah. At sentencing, Freddie told the judge that they had the wrong guy. There were two men responsible for April's murder, Joseph Mulholland, who testified against him, and Francis, who'd pulled the trigger and was now dead himself. Well, and somebody else. Dr. Kaufman. Yeah, yeah.

For real. Yeah. Freddie said, I'm not John Gotti. He claimed the drug ring thing was overblown. He told the judge it was not a drug ring. It was a drug addict ring. And in a real uncomfortable moment, he turned around in court and accused Damon Tyner of using April's murder to advance his political career.

Oh, shit. Yeah. OK, so like I said, the rest of the people who were charged in this thing all took plea deals with the exception of one dude, and that was John Egyptian Kachbalian. Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly how that's pronounced. Kachbalian. It's with big pauses in the middle of it and a question mark at the end. Yeah.

Let's just call him Egyptian. That's what he wants to be called. So he was a retired pagan's leader, which I didn't know you could retire from that stuff, but anyway. And he was pissed about all these rats. So he took to Facebook and made a bunch of threatening posts. I know, this is the weirdest. This is the weirdest.

When I think of a biker gang, I think Facebook. Yeah, Facebook rant. Incoming Facebook rant about the rats. Facebook rant about the rats. So he took to Facebook and made a bunch of threatening posts. And he posted a semi-nude photo of Freddie's ex-wife, Beverly, as revenge for her taking this deal and testifying. And of course, he said some not very nice stuff. And because he did this on Facebook, he got in trouble for that.

In addition to all the other stuff he was already in trouble for. What an idiot. Yeah. Also, at some point in all this mess, Kim settled the wrongful death lawsuit against Jim Kaufman. With him dead, Kim was left to settle with his widow. And it appears to have been a confidential settlement. Let's assume $10 million. $10 million.

The Darcy settlement. But let's end this thing on a positive note okay remember about kim yes oh so remember how her friends call her what have you called her kimberly this whole time and i know no i've been calling her okay so remember how on the one year anniversary of april's murder jim sold all her stuff okay Well, two of April's friends knew how badly that had hurt Kim. So they raised money to buy back some of the things that people had bought at auction. And they gave those items back to Kim. And one of the first things Kim got back was like this little porcelain jar thing.

And she was so happy to have it back. And she opened it and discovered something inside it that she had not expected. It was a note from her mom. I know, I've got goosebumps. Oh, my gosh. It said, to Kimberly from mom, whenever you look at this, know you are always loved. You're so special. Best wishes for the rest of your life

oh my gosh i know it's amazing amazing so she of course now keeps that in like in that little jar by her bed are you crying? For Prosecutor Damon Tyner, there are only two mysteries still remaining about this case. The location of the gun that was used to kill April and why on earth authorities did nothing to solve this murder for six years. He told reporters, shame on anyone who sat on their hands and did nothing while being content to allow murderers to go free to walk the streets of our county. Wow. I'm sorry, did I say I wanted to end it on a positive note? Oh no, what are you going to tell us about David, what's he We can't have nice things, Brandy. So I Googled him just to like, I know.

Turns out he got sued by current and former employees who claim that he illegally flipped his home and also hid evidence in the April Kaufman murder case. Oh, wonderful. So the lawsuit alleged that in two. This sucks. I mean, this sucks. You the lawsuit alleged that in two... This sucks. I mean, this sucks. You think it's done. It's not done. The lawsuit alleged that in 2006, he sold his home for $425,000 to his father-in-law, who then turned around and sold it back to him for $1.

And then he used the money to pay back debt from his campaign. The suit also alleges that he learned that detectives in the April Kaufman case lost evidence and leaked confidential information, and he attempted to cover that all up. The lawsuit also says that he took credit for solving this

murder case when it was really the FBI that did all the work. Wow. Okay, so I couldn't figure out what if anything came from that. But as I was looking for that, I found another lawsuit. Oh my gosh! Turns out he got

sued for gender discrimination and improper behavior. And again, I couldn't find any resolution to those cases, but he is still in office. Great. And that's the wild, twisted story of the murder of April Kaufman. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Wow. Well, I'm going to focus on that really amazing thing that Kimberly got to have. Yeah, that is so cool and so cool of April's friends for doing that for her. It is so cool and so cool of April's friends for doing that for her. I mean, I can't imagine having your mom gone and then you don't get to have any of her things to remember her by. That would be terrible. It would be terrible. Yeah.

You know what we haven't talked about at all? Our Patreon! Ow, mother! I need to move that box. No, I need to stop doing big arms. I got fucking Eddie Izzard over here. You are all about the big arms. I have been.

I boxed you in with that literal box. That's right. Brandi, tell us about the Patreon. Oh my gosh. Okay, we've got all kinds of levels. There's the $5 level. What do you get? You get a monthly bonus episode.

Full-length meaty boy. Full-length meaty boy. And access to the Discord, which is like an old-style chat room where we're just all in there chitty-chatting the day away. Then we have the $7 level. That's the Supreme Court. At that, you get all that stuff from that $5 level. Plus, you get a monthly bonus video. Which we just released one

today. It's the secret cookie recipe. If you want to know all about Brandy's secret cookie, it's just $7 to take a gander. In addition to that, you get a card and a sticker and our autographs. It's very exciting. And you get a card and a sticker and our autographs.

It's very exciting. And you get inducted into the Supreme Court. And then from there, we have the $10 level. That is the Bob Moss level. You get all that stuff we just talked about. Plus, you get episodes ad-free. And you get them a day early. Plus, and I know you're thinking that's so much.

What more could there be? So much. You get 10% off merch. Woo. You know what I've got a hankering to do now? Take some questions from our Discord? You know me so well. Oh. Tracy Lee me so well. Oh.

Tracy Lee Freebush. I feel like this is a question for you, Kristen. Okay. Because you have the hair for it. Okay. Did you rock the banana clip and would you wear it today

if still available? You have the perfect hair for a banana clip. I loved the banana clip. Yeah. Man. Easy breezy beautiful. Banana clip. Yeah. Man, easy, breezy, beautiful. Banana clip.

So I have a lot of clips, but I use them like, you know, when I'm styling my hair. I don't really, you know, it's not something I wear out. Yeah. But man, if that thing's coming back, I will enthusiastically throw it all up in it. Wonderful. Beesfly22 asks, Brandy, what's your favorite part about being london's mom and what's being a stepmom like favorite part of being london's mom is like every part of every day you are very happy i am extremely happy she's amazing and she's just like a really easy baby too yeah um and so that's i was really prepared deal with, like, the sleeplessness and figure

out, like, how to get through that. And it just hasn't been a problem. It just hasn't been an issue at all. She's just a really easy, happy baby. And I guess my, I, like, cuddle her to sleep every night. Yeah. I know that will be coming to an end because she's not going to she is not one day. She'll be 16.

Exactly. So I really am enjoying that at this time. And being a stepmom, it's really difficult. It really makes me appreciate my step parents. I have amazing step parents, Steve and Lisa. And I think it's a really difficult relationship. And I think it's a really difficult relationship. It's difficult for me to know, like, when I'm supposed to step in and be the parent. And like, yeah, David's really great about it and just like is super supportive of, you know, us parenting together.

And yeah. And Jackson's a really, really great kid. He's super respectful and polite. And it's just it's it's it's a really, really great kid. He's super respectful and polite. It's a really interesting relationship, though. Yeah, it's tougher than I thought it would be just because I want Jackson to always feel like he is super special and important, too, because he has London around now too. And so yeah, I think it's really great. I always had that

for my step parents and I want to make sure that Jackson always feels that for me as well. How do you think they did it? I don't know. Yeah. I'm very lucky that I had really, really good step parents. Yeah. And still have really, really good step parents. They. And still have really, really good step parents.

They're still around. They really shit the bed recently. Okay, this is kind of an interesting question. Haven Monahan wants to know, what's a new COVID protocol slash policy that has actually made your life easier? Mine is having to drop my dogs off at the vet. Someone comes out to my car to pick up and drop off. And then being able to have the whole consultation via phone from my couch. Okay. I think that's interesting because I feel like it's so easy to focus on the negative. Yeah. There are some positive aspects.

I'll tell you one positive aspect. Yeah. When I was covered like head to fucking toe in poison ivy. Yeah. I really didn't want to go anywhere. Of course. And I was able to do the telemedicine. Yeah. Which I don't think my doctor's office offered until I forced them into. I agree. And so now moving forward, I think it'll still continue to be a thing. Absolutely. Because it's worked so well. Well, and it's so convenient and like I don't need to go in there and be like, hello, I'm covered in poison ivy because I thought I was immune to it. Remember how I sat in it because I thought I wasn't allergic to it? I do. You basically got out there.

Uh-huh. And rubbed my butthole in it. Yep, I did everything. Oh, this is an interesting question. Okay, Egg on My Shirt asks, is the thing about not driving with a car full of friends an American thing? Because I've never heard that before listening to this week's episode. No, I think the point there is that, like, I was a young driver with a bunch of teenagers in my car, which means I would be easily distracted and not being a skilled driver. That's not a great situation to put in, to be put in.

I even think that they have made laws now since we were teenagers about, like, how many passengers a teenager can have with them. Okay. I don't know if I'm making this up. It's totally possible I am making it up. I don't know if I'm making this up. It's totally possible I am making it up. But for some reason, I want to say that right around the time when you and I were 16, a study came out about how the chances of being in a wreck increased dramatically with every teenager you add to a car. And so I just remember my dad saying that.

Maybe he made that up on the spot. He might have. But, yeah, it's just a risk thing. I don't think it's an american yeah no it's just yeah it's just about safety and yeah distracted driving devry law school wants to know my oldest son recently told me that his favorite retro song is stacy's mom knock the wind right out of me what's something that's made you feel super old. That is rough. That is. Yes. And that is a good song. It is.

Because Stacey's mom does have it going on. She does. I don't know. Sometimes just looking in the mirror. Or like having to put in your birth date on a form online and you got to scroll way down on the numbers. form online and you got to scroll way down on the on the numbers. Or hearing about super accomplished people or just like even just regular adults. Yeah.

Being born in the 90s. Yeah. And there's still that part of me that's like, well, that's not possible. Oh, wait. No, it is possible. Yeah. And I'm old. Yes. Yeah.

We have an employee at the salon who was born after I graduated high school. Oh, shit. Or like the year I graduated high school. Yeah, that seems illegal to me. I know. That you're using that six-year-old. My God. that six-year-old.

My God. You know, people are getting all upset about the skinny jeans and the side parts. Yeah. I'm okay with skinny jeans going away. Yeah. What am I going to wear? I'm not wearing fucking mom jeans, though.

That is not a look for me. This ass and mom jeans, it's just... It would amplify. I think it'd be great no no that's not what it does what does it do does not amp when you when it's already amplified this much no it just creates i mean it just elongates and it's not what's wrong with a good long ass. Nobody wants a good long ass. And certainly nobody wants a big long ass. I disagree.

So I have seen like the play on the mom jean where you do like a low rise version. Because I cannot wear my jeans up to here, Kristen. See, I like the high rise. No, that's not for me. No. You don't think it's comfy? No. No. Kristen, I'm very oddly shaped. You, that's not for me. Mm-mm. No. You don't think it's comfy? No. No. Kristen, I'm very oddly shaped.

You're not? Oh, my God. I am. You're not oddly shaped. I am. If I, if they, okay, if they fit here, then they're smashing everything in the hip-ass region, like, to an uncomfortable level. So if they fit the ass-hip region, then it's just Gap City way up here. Do you take your pants to be tailored?

I mean, I could, but gosh, that sounds like a pain in the ass. I hear you. I think I'll just stay. And I don't need my crotch to look like it's a whole foot long. You know what I've always said about your crotch. It's a foot long crotch. It's a $5 foot long. No, it can't, you know.

I think the tough thing about the mom jeans look is like you've got to have the right body. Yeah, you sure do. And this is not it. All because of your shape that is not found in nature. Is that what you're trying to say? That's right. This body is not the body for mom jeans. Hey, whatever happened to flares?

Remember flares? Are they coming back? Probably not. I remember I liked flares because they kind of balanced you out. Can I wear like a boyfriend cut jean? Is that going to cut it with the? No, that's not a mom jean. Why not?

You got to have the long ass. Boyfriends don't have the long ass. I want a long ass. I do not want a long ass. Well, these are the problems. Okay, multiple people are asking this, so I think we've just got to address it. Why? Because we've talked about the staircase.

Oh, okay. People want to know what our take is on the owl theory. Okay. So, at first glance, I thought it was stupid. I made fun of it. Uh-huh. Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. Only an idiot would believe the owl theory.

But the more I've looked into it, the more I'm like, you know what? Crazier things have happened. Here's my. I am not willing to go balls out on the owl theory, as Kristen would say. Please don't go balls out on an owl. What I am willing to say. PETA will come after this whole podcast. to say. PETA will come after this whole podcast. What I am willing to say

is that there is more evidence that she was killed by an owl than that she was killed by Michael Peterson. Yeah, because there's that owl who was also found near the body of another woman. Ooh, Krusty Butthole wants to know, what was your favorite music video growing up?

Oh, God. I remember Casey and I, when we were very young, dancing to the Hold On video by Wilson Phillips in our living room. And Casey had the Chyna Phillips bowl cut. Oh, In our living room. And Casey had the China Phillips bowl cut. Oh, no. Did she really? She did. She did. Okay.

You got to respect that. That's right. Did it look good on her? She had it. Carlos the Serial Killer wants to know, Have you watched The Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel? And if so, what do you think happened? Have you watched it yet?

I haven't watched it yet. Neither have I. Yeah. Everyone's watching it. Yeah. The whole world's watching it. What are we doing? Not watching it.

And not having a shamrock shake. I can tell you that. All right. I'm going to have a shamrock shake. Bullshit. And I'm going to watch the Cecil Hotel. You better take a picture of it. Okay.

And it better not be photoshopped. I'll do like a bow thing and then I'll have like a newspaper in the back. What's it even about? It's about Elisa Lam. I've heard it's... Okay. Okay. So this is what I've heard.

What have you heard? What I've heard is that if you are, just have like general knowledge of the case, you learn nothing new. Oh, I hate those. I don't like them either. That's why I didn't like the Britney Spears thing. Yeah. I think I know what happened. I don't think it's a mystery. Okay.

So. You know, being right isn't everything, Brandy. That's what exactly, that's what Bluey taught me. I learned that today. Ooh. I would like to know the answer to this because you're so into 90 Day Fiance. Okay. I feel like this is an adjacent show.

Okay. What are your thoughts on Married at First Sight? Had to turn it off. Really? Couldn't handle it. Yeah. I don't know. Here's the thing. I put it on while I was folding laundry and the bar when I am

folding laundry is so fucking low. Yeah. I don't know. I just was not charmed by anybody. Here's what I really don't like. Okay. I do not like when trash TV or trash podcast, trash anything. Yeah. Tries to act like it's not trash.

Yeah. So like when teen mom has Dr. Drew come on and try to be all, oh, shut up, Dr. Drew. He's really talking about real things, Kristen. He's an asswipe. You know what I mean? And so, like, I don't know. I think it was something about then they start to bring in the experts. Yeah, and the therapists.

Yeah, and it's like no decent therapist is really like oh this is a great idea no it's a terrible idea absolutely it is a terrible idea you just married someone you'd never met you'd never even seen before now i will say i don't necessarily think this is going to sound, I don't necessarily think, and this is going to sound crazy, I don't necessarily think that is such a crazy idea in general. But I think when you add in the reality show component, you've got people who are there for the wrong reasons, for stupid reasons, and blah, blah, blah. You are 35, single. You have focused on your career. You're super successful. Mm-hmm.

You feel like... Quit describing me. You feel like something is missing from your life. Uh-huh. And it's a fulfilling marriage. Uh-huh. You see this thing online about this experiment. No.

You wouldn't do it? Fuck no. Not a chance at hell I'd do it. experiment. No. You wouldn't do it? Fuck no! Not a chance at all! I'm saying more like you know there are cultures where they do arranged marriages and I'm just saying like you know if you're going into it with the idea of yeah I'm not going to

automatically fall in love. We're going to like grow together. I don't know maybe it's like the old married lady in me speaking but I think you do grow together a I don't know. Maybe it's like the old married lady in me speaking, but I think you do grow together a lot over time. Oh, yeah. And you change a lot, and hopefully you change together. Now, Norman's buried in the backyard.

Right. So we changed in different ways, and that's just what you have to do. That's right. Because divorce is not an option, you know. But no, I can't imagine. No, I can't imagine doing it either. That's Tova with a V. Okay.

She asks, you have to introduce someone to the Midwest purely by food. Oh, no. What item or meal do you make or buy? Okay. I can illustrate this with a story. Okay. Recently, I was shocked. My whole family was shocked to learn that Jay, my brother-in-law, who has lived in the Midwest since college now, had never had just like Cool Whip, just like straight up Cool Whip.

And we were like, how is that possible? Again, he's been here for like 15 years or something. And just to be a little bit of a smartass, he was like, well, obviously I've had it mixed into things like salads. And I was like, okay! You're talking about how we call everything a salad

and usually there's marshmallows involved. But yeah, I would think basically anything that is called a salad but has like marshmallows or whipped cream in it. I think that screams Midwestern to me. Yeah. I would agree with that.

Mm-hmm. I also think a delicious casserole. Yeah, a casserole. Mm-hmm. So we have a dish, I believe I've talked about it before in my family that we call hamburger pie basically it's a midwestern seems like something that you could cut your mouth on

with a spoon it's a midwestern version of shepherd's pie and it's just some ground beef and you make a is your mouth watering? it's one of my favorite meals you mix up the ground beef. And you make a... Is your mouth watering? It's one of my favorite meals. You mix up the

ground beef. You mix in a can of tomato soup. And a can of green beans. This sounds gross. Lay that in the bottom of your casserole dish. Top that with mashed potatoes.

You guys should see her face and then you top that cheese craft singles no are you kidding me no craft singles which I personally do in a checkerboard pattern I don't mean to tell you how to make your hamburger pie Which I personally do in a checkerboard pattern.

I don't mean to tell you how to make your hamburger pie. And you shove that in the oven. Make sure it gets nice and steamy. 350? Yeah. About 20 minutes. Melt those Kraft singles. You serve that up with a Pillsbury Crescent roll.

Boy. Boy, that is Midwestern. That is Midwestern. Why is it so hard to find vegan restaurants out here? I don't know. I don't know. Ooh. David and Norm Forever asks my bestie tinfoil hat and I want to do

an LGTC themed party night where we watch a crime documentary and have Kristen and Brandy's favorite food and snacks any suggestions? Taco Bell's a must what else should we have? it's like I'm excited we're not even invited we're not going to be there Any suggestions? Taco Bell's a must. What else should we have? Oh, God. It's like I'm excited.

We're not even invited. We're not going to be there. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Well, it all depends on what kind of night you're going to have. I know. I mean, are you going to watch the Chris Watts documentary? Then I feel like you've got to go kind of light.

You don't want to have hamburger pie with that. You're just going to blow chunks all over the screen. Might I suggest making my cookie recipe i think that's a good way to go okay yeah you know okay it's obviously been forever and a day since we had movie night yes but what we would always do is like one of us would do the savory thing one of us would do the sweet thing you gotta have have a balance. It's about balance. It's all about balance. And you know, one of those items is always very healthy, so it's about balance. No.

But Kristen would, when we had our movie nights, Kristen would always be like, and here's a plate of celery. It just seemed wrong. Because we would have like, you know, you would do those really good meatballs. We would have like a pie or something. And you just can't do.

You've got to have a veggie to ward off the scurvy. Can't do just meatballs and pie. No. You've got to have some veggies. Yeah. So I do a sweet and spicy meatball. Mm-hmm. Mama Mia.

So good. Mm-hmm. You get those frozen meatballs from your grocery freezer. Put those in your crock pot. Put barbecue sauce and chili sauce and a touch of honey on those. Mix that all up. Get those nice and steamy. And then you sprinkle in the red pepper flakes until it's spicy enough for you.

Oh, it's so good. Are you hungry? No, clearly. I mean, you've heard my stomach. You just, you seem to be getting kind of overjoyed. I, I, these are some of my favorite things. Yeah, I got a passion for these things. That's right.

Should we end it there? I think so. Should we move on to Supreme Court Inductions? Yeah. Supreme Court Inductions. You. Supreme Court Inductions. You know what I realized last time? What? I think we just started saying people's names and their favorite cookies without saying,

hey, we're reading people's favorite cookies. Oh. So anyway, we're reading your names and favorite cookies. People know what we're doing. Yeah, I think people are. It's not their first day. It's not rocket science or rocket surgery. Either way. Have you ever heard somebody say it's not their first day. It's not rocket science or rocket surgery. Either way.

Have you ever heard somebody say it's not rocket surgery? It's one of my favorite things. It's pretty good. Marissa Sia. Brown butter toffee chocolate. Sarah Jane Sane. Snickerdoodles from Insomnia Cookies. Morgan G. Salisbury.

Caramel Delights. Ashley Wallen. Domino Cookies. Chocolate's Google it real quick. Ivy. Panoli. Dulce. The waffle cookie from Crumble. Okay, what is Crumble and what are we missing out on? I don't know. Let's Google it real quick. Crumble, freshly baked and home delivered. What? Okay, let's see.

Is this a thing they have here? Let's see. I've got an option to order now. Let me order now. Delivery. Yes. Oh. Well, I can have it delivered to Kansas Road in Limestone, Maine.

Okay, I think that's working. So we have no crumble here, that's what you're telling me. Oh, wait. Find a crumble. Oh, there's one near an Overland Park. Oh! Oh! Oh!

So I could have crumble. Well, I can too. No, you're in Missouri. Damn it. All right, enough of this. Back to the cookies. All right, back to it. Kate Hedges.

Samoas. Michelle McAdams. Snickerdoodle. Courtney Cotone. Turtle cookies. Ashley. Made of real turtles. No, stop.

Monster cookies. Made of real monsters. Sabrina. The ones with faces or objects stamped on them. Real faces. Made with real faces. Jessica Prince. Peanut butter star cookies made of real stars.

Is this getting old? Holly. S'mores cookies. Amy Villa. Oatmeal raisin. Taylor Ellis. Chocolate chip. Annette Ahrens. White chocolateores cookies. Amy Villa. Oatmeal raisin. Taylor Ellis. Chocolate chip. Annette Ahrens. White chocolate cherry cookies. Welcome to the Supreme Court!

Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating, leave us a review, and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the Family Secrets episode of 2020, as well as reporting from the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Press of Atlantic City, and NewJersey.com. Thank you. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.