Let's Go To Court! - 164: The Tesco Bomber & a Sinister Minister

Episode Date: March 10, 2021

John Purnell was having a pretty normal day at his job as head of security for Great Britain’s biggest supermarket chain. Then he got a bizarre phone call from a local newscaster. The newscaster said they’d found a troubling document in their photocopier. The document was an extortion letter, aimed at Tesco. In it, a person calling themselves “SALLY,” threatened to send bombs to Tesco customers. The bombs would get bigger, and deadlier, unless Tesco paid up. Then Brandi tells us about Joe Musante, who was discovered dead in his pastor’s office. Investigators determined Joe’s death to be a suicide, but his sister, Rose, had questions. Hadn’t her brother and his wife recently been seeing their minister, AB Schirmer for marital counseling? When investigators looked into AB’s history, they discovered his wife had died tragically. And so had the one before her. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary “Real Crime: Supermarket Heist” “Forgive me, says baby food poisoner as he goes free,” The Free Library.com “Tesco blackmail ‘bomber’ jailed,” BBC News “Inside the capture of Robert Dyer the supermarket blackmailer who threatened to bomb Tesco customers,” by Jennifer Newton for The Sun In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Sinister Minister” episode Accident Murder or Suicide “Death At The Parsonage” episode 48 Hours “DA Describes Prosecuting The ‘Sinister Minister,’ Who Had 2 Wives Die Under Mysterious Circumstances” by Benjamin H. Smith, oxygen.com “Former Lebanon pastor A.B. Schirmer sentenced in first wife's death” by Barbara Miller, Penn Live “Porn-addict pastor killed two wives and managed to make them look like accidents for years” by Akshay Pai, meaww.com   YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

Get ready to experience an all-new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500, and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. Don Valley North, Don Valley North Lexus. And save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models.

A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the Tesco bomber.

And I'll be talking about a sinister minister. Oh, I love that. Oh, I didn't make it up. Did Dateline make it up? No. Nope. Oxygen? No.

2020? No. Well, there's a limit to how many shows there are. It's not a show that coined the term. What is it? It was the prosecutor. Oh, okay. Okay. Prosecutor getting cute.

Sometimes they do that. Speaking of cute, what about us? And our Patreon? Boy, was that smooth? It was extremely smooth. Extremely smooth. Yes. Yeah. Hot new episode up on Patreon.

Bonus episode, as we call them. Brandy covers a staircase murder? Not that one. Not that one. Don't get pissed. Don't get disappointed. Don't sign up and then... It is a good one, but it's not that staircase.

Different staircase. Yes. In Kanata. Yes. And I covered kind of a bonkers case. It was a bonkers case. If I do say so myself. Lady got lap band surgery.

Thought she'd get away with murder. Thought she'd get away with murder. That's right. Turns out all she did was lose some weight. Yep. Rocking that hot new bod in prison. Or is she? Mysteries. Mysteries.

Mysteries abound everywhere. Brandi, how's your life? It's great. You know, it's like 70 degrees here today. It's just like, I got my flippy floppies on. You're also wearing a hoodie as usual. That's just kind of standard. That's just how you are.

That's right. Yeah, I went for a run today. I went for a walk. All the outdoor activities. You got so many endorphins. You're practically sky high right now. I can't kill my husband right now because endorphins make you happy. And happy people just don't kill their husbands.

That's right. We covered that case. We covered that case. That very real case. Woo. What else you got to talk about over there? Okay. This is not on topic at all, but I was thinking about it.

Then I was like, don't say it out loud. It's not something worth sharing, but here I go. Coming out my mouth hole. When I talked about smooth like butter, when my parents lived with us, my mom did a lot of grocery shopping. She introduced us to some new items. You ever had the spreadable tub of butter with a little canola oil? Oh, yeah. So that the butter just automatically doesn't get all jagged.

Yeah, it's good. I don't know who needs to hear this right now. But it's a whole new world in the Caruso house. I can't talk about a fucking episode of Bluey, but you can talk about spreadable butter. Did it take me 20 minutes to tell you about spreadable butter? No. No, it did not. I'll have you know that entire episode of Bluey is like seven minutes long.

And somehow you took three hours to tell me the plot of Bluey. That Bluey'd my brains out. I'm sorry. No. That's Not funny. Should we get to the episode? Let's do it. Do you know about the Tesco bond?

No. Where's Tesco? Is that a British thing? Is that a Canada thing? It's a British thing. It's a British thing. Okay. All right.

I was pretty sure. You know, they got Tesco over in Britain. They got Tim Hortons up there in Canada. Up there in Canada. And they got Texaco here. Yes. You think because your daughter's London, you know all the British shit, huh? I don't.

No? Okay. Shout out to the documentary Real Crime. Oh. Supermarket Heist. Oh. There was a colon in there. You didn't want to pronounce the colon.

Well, I was shamed. I was colon shamed. You were colon shamed? By you, if you'll recall. I do recall. But I've decided. What have you decided? Bluey taught me.

What did it teach you? Sometimes it's better to be nice than right. All right. Well, please don't tell us any more about that. Because I can't take it. I've slipped on my beans. So, yeah, I watched that documentary, so you didn't have to. Okay.

Okay. There were a lot of reenactments. Oh. I just want to let you know. Were they good? What do you think? I'm going to go with no. Also, a lot of the talking heads where the people were like, and then we were like, we got to catch this person.

You're like, yes. Yes, indeed. Also, the BBC. Also, international case disclaimer. We all know it. And if you're new here, just go with it. That's right. Picture it.

August 2000. We're in Bournemouth, which, as I'm sure you're aware, is on the southern coast of England. Obviously. And is one of the country's wealthiest towns. And it's also a tourist destination, Brandy. It is. Can't be too big of a tourist destination but anyway and on this particular day in the year 2000 okay the 12 people who watched conan o'brien back in the day are gonna love that

with his little... Yes, the, yeah. Yeah, he had like a collar thing that he put on, yeah. I didn't know you were a Conan fan back in the day. I was back in the day. What? Not anymore? What?

What happened? I don't know. I will toss you out a window unless you tell me exactly what happened. Conan gets better with time. What are you? I think he's really funny. There's just some, like, problematic stuff. Like what?

Like, what'd he do? Like about him being inappropriate with guests. Oh, the. Yeah. And, like, the looking down the girl's shirt. Ew. Yeah. Oh.

Yeah. You know what? I'm going's shirt. Ew. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to ruin Bluey for you. Turns out Bluey is super problematic. No! Did you hear that Bluey's a rapist? No! How dare you?

How dare Bluey? See, this is the problem with our culture. You blame me when you should be blaming Bluey. No, never. What is Bluey again? A blue heeler. Oh, okay, yeah. She's a dog.

She for sure didn't rape anybody. Okay, so anyway. John Purnell was having a normal day at work. He was the head of security for Tesco, which is Great Britain's biggest supermarket chain. And out of nowhere, he received a bizarre phone call. It was from a newscaster, which I'm assuming is news anchor for us. And this newscaster said that they'd found a strange document in their photocopier. Was it like one of those letters with the magazine letters cut out and pasted on it?

Not quite that strange. Okay. It looked as if someone had been making copies and forgotten to take the original. So the newscaster read the document and immediately was like, whoa, I think I need to call Tesco. Because this document involved threats against a grocery store. That's weird. It was a typed letter. It had been written in all caps.

So they were yelling. Yes. And here's part of what it said. Okay, okay. Are you going to yell it? Oh, I should yell it. I will yell yelling. Yes. And here's part of what it said. Okay, okay. Are you going to yell it? I've got to pause. Oh, I should yell it. I will yell it.

Okay. So I do have to pause. Okay. In the documentary, they showed like B-roll footage of this letter. And I paused and I type, type, type, type, wrote it all up. Then after the documentary was over, I started reading stuff online. And they were like and now we'll read part of the first letter to you and i didn't really see so i'm like oh shit

was this just b-roll bullshit anyway there's it's don't worry about it don't worry here we go here we go this is the totally real uh-huh completely accurate letter i mean the spirit is there. That's what I'm saying. Okay, so all caps. Without prejudice. 22 August 2000 because, you know, Europe. They do the date and then the month. Very confusing. It is. Very soon, some people in the Bournemouth area will get small bombs

sent to them. They will all be recent Tesco customers. These bombs will be very small. Just a will be very small. Just a warning. How small are they? They're so small that we call them fun size. Call them bomblets.

That sounds like a really good omelet. Yeah. Let's open a bed and breakfast. When our husbands inevitably run away together. Unless you agree to my terms very quickly, the bombs will get bigger and much more dangerous. They will all go to Tesco customers. Anyone seen shopping at Tesco will be a possible target. You can only stop this by meeting my terms.

Why are you making that face at me, Brandi? You should be terrified. You will have made enough Tesco loyalty cards to put one in every copy of the Evening Echo. They will be encoded to work in ATM machines as Tesco bank cards. They will allow withdrawals of 1,000 pounds per transaction with no limit on the number of withdrawals per day. The pin number will be 3-3-3-3. Nothing of this is

negotiable. Follow my instructions or your customers will be at risk. The risk will get bigger the longer you take to comply. We heard tidy bags getting bigger. Are you bored? You're bored by this extortion letter?

It seems a bit redundant. I think they could have edited it down just a little. It went on from there and it was signed by hand, in all caps, Sally. The letter was chilling. And of course, John was like,

well, this is a little bit above my pay grade. And so he reached out to the constables, all of them, and was like, hey, friends, the largest supermarket chain in all of jolly old England is being extorted by some really scary lady named Sally. Send help. And they were like, help is on the way, deity. I'm sorry.

And they showed up and they read the letter and they were like, huh, this doesn't give us much to go on. give us much to go on. They did make note that it was signed with a woman's name, and they found that very progressive and refreshing because, really, women can do anything, including extortion, Brandy, and I hope that's a lesson to us all. That is. Is it Women's History Month? Yeah. March, Women's History Month.

Sisters are doing it for themselves. Okay. So investigators also noted the letter's header. It read, without prejudice. Yeah, what does that mean? Yeah, it seems kind of odd. Kind of jargony. They were thinking like police jargon maybe? Maybe legal jargon?

I know, it sounds like, yeah, legalese-y to me. Legalese-y. Legalese-y. But they also noticed that this person had misspelled the word prejudice. Well, and also they said it's tiny bombs and then the bombs are small and the bombs are getting bigger. I mean. What's wrong with that?

I just think. What? What? Pick one? Yeah. Pick a lane. Well, they have picked a lane. They said, do I need to explain to you again?

Start off small. And then, you know, if they don't comply, then the bombs get bigger. Also, it seems like their demands are like impossible for them to meet. Interesting. Why do you say that? OK, I just want I want you to make up, you know, an infinite number of Tesco loyalty cards. Right.

I want them to work as a bank card in any ATM and be able to take a thousand dollars out with no limit just over and over again. A million times a day. Yeah. No. This is not a meetable

request. So your problem Demand. Your problem with this extortionist is that they haven't thought it through very well. No.

Yeah, you gotta have realistic goals. Yeah, I agree. It would be easier just like give me a million pounds and you drop it over by the Tesco. I don't know. So this person. What? Maybe they thought that that would be confusing. They'd be like, a million pounds of what? Oh, well.

Well done. Thank you. Professional comedians. Do you guys get it? Because the pounds, you know, it could be like the weight, but it could also be the currency. It is a thinker of a joke. It is. It's sophisticated, kind of a Dixon-sider

situation. Kind of a Dixon-sider situation. If this is your third time listening to this episode, I'm sure you'll get it by now. Probably didn't the first couple times. So, like I said, they'd misspelled the word prejudice and they'd really done a number

on it. They had spelled it P-R-E D-U-J I-C-E Predugeese. Evidently, Sally was predugeese against spellcheck. The jokes are so good this episode.

Chef's kiss to both of us. Oh, no. So investigators thought that because of the jargony language of the initial letter, their suspect could be someone in the criminal justice field or the legal field. More like a small child. But they also wondered if it was just someone who fucking hated Tesco. Tesco was a big chain.

They had locations all over the place. They'd run out some mom and pop stores and as they'd expanded, they'd fired a few people. Maybe this was a disgruntled former employee. Okay. What? Did the newscaster find this at the news station? Okay. This is one of my many issues with this documentary and with every article I read on this. So yeah, I'm like, when I watched the documentary, I was like, okay,

they were in the newsroom. Isn't that like narrow it down? That's what I was like, okay, they were in the newsroom? Yes, and isn't that like narrow it down? That's what I was thinking. But then they never mentioned that. And so then in another source I saw, they said it was like the shop. And so I wonder if part of this newsroom was like a photocopy center. I don't know. Kinkos attached to it? That's honestly. I don't know. Kinkos attached. Basically.

That's that's honestly what I'm picturing. All right. So anyway, that's that's what I'm telling you. Peaches. Can I call you peaches? Just peach. So maybe this was a former employee. Maybe it was one of the people who had sued Tesco for some reason or another. There were

some civil suits against them. Or maybe investigators were wrong to think of Sally as just one person. Maybe Sally represented a big criminal enterprise. I doubt it. Well, I mean, it sort of made sense. Like what Sally demanded in that letter was pretty big. Well, yeah, so, like, one person's going to take advantage of all that. All right, all right, all right. So investigators talked to the Tesco people, and they were like, okay, this nut job wants you to put your club cards, which they look kind of like Visa gift cards,

into every single copy of the Daily Echo to make sure that every single one of those cards is ready to be used at an ATM. And the Tesco people were like, we can't do this. What? Yeah, that's exactly. So the Daily Echo was the biggest paper in Dorset. It had a circulation of like 50,000. And the Tesco people were like, we don't even know if we can do that.

Even if we wanted to, we don't know if that's possible. So Tesco was freaking out, like, guess we've got to make a bunch of club cards real fast. And investigators were like, who the hell is this Sally person? They figured the only way to crack the case was to go up to everyone in town and ask them to spell the word prejudice. But before they could hold a town spelling bee, Tesco received another letter. This one was fire damaged, which seemed odd. Why the hell was there fire damage on this extortion letter? Well, investigators soon found out that a post box on Bradpole Road in Bournemouth had

recently been set on fire. Oh. And they were like, huh, clearly this Sally person had second thoughts about being some tough gal bomber. And she put that letter in the post box and she was like, oh, no, I've got so many regrets. What did I just do? So then she lit the post box on fire to try to destroy the letter. And now she's probably back at her flat, just like, man, I am so done with extortion. I don't

know what I was thinking. What a harebrained scheme. I guess I'll pick up knitting. I don't think that's accurate. Yeah. More wishful thinking on their part. Right. And that's exactly what they were thinking. Sally did not take up knitting because pretty soon she sent Tesco another letter. And once again, we're working with all caps.

And Sally was like, hey gang, just so you know, I've made all these cute little baby bombs and they're ready to go to customers' houses and I'm going to send them

and they're going to be like, boop! And right in the customer's face they said, it's going to be bad. That is unless you pony up that money and give me my motherfucking cash. It puts the club cards in the echo or else it gets the hose again. And just a reminder, if you don't do what I say, I will get mad.

And when I get mad, I make even bigger bombs. And, you know, the thing about bigger bombs is that they don't go beep. They go boom, and people will die. Everybody following along. Tiny bombs. Yep. Beep. Super cute.

Big bombs. Boom. Boom. Not as cute. Not cute at all, I would say. Just bad. My expert opinion. Okay.

So investigators were reading these letters, and they had a lot of concerns. One of them being that Sally was requesting something that just wasn't possible. Yeah! I believe I said that already! Well, they can't hear you! Sally wanted these fucking club cards to be usable in an ATM so she could withdraw a thousand pounds at a time. But you can't withdraw a thousand pounds at a time from an ATM. And not to mention, you probably can't just go up again and again.

No! Have you ever been to an ATM, Sally? That's not how they fucking work. So they were like, shit, how do we let this person know that their plan isn't possible? And also, lure them into conversation? So they went for the one thing they knew for sure. They knew that Sally was familiar with the Daily Echo. So on September 6th, an undercover officer placed an advert in the paper asking Sally to call them.

Here's what it said. Sal, you understand that we need to talk. Let's sort this out together. Please phone [phone]. I don't know, man. What do you mean? That's pretty vague. Well, how much more?

Hey! Hey, bomber. Hey, Sally. Hey. No, you want to bomb everybody, but can you call the police real quick first? All right. All right. What else are they going to do?

I don't know. Does Sally respond? Sally never rang. Sally didn't fucking get it. Which led to terrible self-esteem problems for that undercover officer. He was like, am I not funny enough? Am I not charming? What's wrong with a bloke like me?

So then the police launched Operation Fun Times. And they threw a little party for him. And they each gave him three compliments. And at the end, he felt a lot better. And they ate a sheet cake. And afterward. Oh, my gosh. You know what? When I wrote that joke, I was like thinking a sheet cake. And afterward... Oh my gosh, you know what?

When I wrote that joke, I was like thinking about sheet cake, obviously. I was thinking of this one my mom does sometimes. Oh my god, it's so good. It's like a really thin spice cake thing that has like the cream cheese frosting. And it's just like...

I immediately thought of a Texas sheet cake. Yes! Yes! Oh I love a Texas sheet cake. Yeah the chocolate one? Yep. I think we need an Operation Fun Times party. We do! I'll give you three compliments.

Of course you'd probably be like uncomfortable. I would be. I'd be super uncomfortable. What if I gave you three insults would you be more comfortable? I'd be. I'd be super uncomfortable. What if I gave you three insults? Would you be more comfortable? I'd be more used to that. More used to that? I don't insult you. No, that's what I do to myself.

Okay, great. You'd feel like you were right at home. Exactly. So, you know, they ate the sheet cake. They did the no word on if it was a Texas sheet cake, which would be quite exotic. It would be. Jolly old England. And then they went back to worrying about the bombs.

Okay. By this point, about 100 officers were working on this case, which they'd codenamed Operation Hornbow. Ooh. What? Psst. Psst. Psst. What? Let me tell you something.

You have a secret? About Operation Hornbill. Operation Hornbill was super secret! Oh, okay, great. You can't tell anybody what Operation Hornbill is all about! Not your spouse. Not your best mate. I hope they don't assign you.

Not even the queen! I hope they don't assign you. Not even the queen. I hope they don't assign you the case. I would tell everybody. I'd be like, guess what I'm doing? Investigators were super paranoid and super secretive about this investigation. And that all stemmed from a terrible crime that had happened like 10 years earlier. Okay. Stop me if you have heard about this case.

I had never heard of it. Give me the heebie-jeebies. Okay. This evil shithead started blackmailing Heinz and Pedigree. And he was saying like, oh, I'm going to spike jars of baby food if you don't give me four million pounds. Do you know this? Yeah, I've heard of this. Okay.

And then he did it. This guy bought jars of baby food, opened them up, mixed in sodium hydroxide, broken glass, broken razor blades, and then got those jars of baby food back on store shelves. It reminds me of the Tylenol murder case. jars of baby food back on store shelves. It reminds me of the Tylenol murder case. As a result, five babies were rushed to the hospital after ingesting this tainted baby food. Is it the reason for the little, like, pop thing on the top of baby food jars? That would make sense, honestly.

Yeah, because you think, like, we didn't always have tamper-proof packaging on stuff. Uh-uh. Ugh. What an ass. Yeah. So luckily none of them died, but, I mean, that was very, very lucky because once authorities realized what was happening, they launched a nationwide investigation and discovered more jars of tainted baby food. Wow.

One of the jars contained enough poison to kill 27 babies. Oh, my gosh. So they tried to catch this guy, and even though they had this massive investigation and they knew he was receiving the blackmail money at ATMs, he somehow managed to stay a step ahead of them. It was, like, baffling to the police. Until they realized that the person who was poisoning all the baby food was Police Sergeant Rodney Wichelow.

Yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah. He pled not guilty, but at the end of a three-month trial, he was found guilty. three-month trial he was found guilty and he was sentenced to 17 years in prison but he got out eight years early which boggles my american mind yeah um and when reporters found out that he'd been released he was real pissed and he told them that he had his own computer firm and was trying to avoid publicity and when asked about the crime he said quote it happened i was convicted i've served my time and paid my dues i want to carry on with an ordinary life what you tried to poison

be well you did poison babies what the fuck leave me alone i'm just a normal guy. Oh, no. I just punched the mic. Sorry. So that guy seems great in conclusion. Yeah. Yeah. But the whole point of that story is to say that when the officers began working on this case, they were very concerned that the perpetrator might be one of their own. So it was like super secret. Yeah.

Stop asking questions. Okay. Don't put Kristen on the case. Is it Horn-bell? Horn-bill. Horn-bill, like a bird? B-I-L-L. Like a horn-bill?

I mean, who knows how it's really pronounced. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's like a kind of bird, right? A horn-bill. Oh, yeah. Okay. And you know, it's Great Britain, so they pronounce the H just like herp. Herp. You pronounce the H in horn anyway.

Not me. I'm quite orny. Yes. Improv, baby. Improv, baby. So, the letter had used some phrasing that indicated that Sally could be a cop, you know, without prejudice. Sally also talked about deploying a bomb. So Operation Horn Bill, with a big old H, was working this thing, being super secretive sneaky sneaks.

And on September 9th, three weeks after they got their first letter, all the big important investigators got together for a meeting. And they discussed how seriously they needed to take this thing. Yes, Sally was saying some scary shit, but she hadn't actually done anything. Would she actually do anything? Did she have the nuts? Perhaps she didn't have the nuts. Perhaps she was nutless.

All talk, no nuts, as they say. That is what they say. Then, no shit, in the middle of this meeting about whether Sally was an Almond Joy or a Mounds, an officer came in to interrupt. I'm sorry, I'm kind of off the rails. Turns out, Sally had done exactly what she said she sent teeny bombs a 70 something year old woman named jean evans had been at home she got her mail noticed a thin package addressed to her and she opened it up and it exploded in her face jean was rushed to the hospital with minor injuries

and officers just freaked the fuck out. They examined the package that had been sent to Jean, and let me tell you, it was a real MacGyver situation. The explosive had been made out of a CD case and a party popper that had

been cut down, and it had all been put into a jiffy bag, which I'm devastated to report is just what British people call a mailer. It's not a bag of jiffy bag, which I'm devastated to report is just what British people call a mailer. It's not a bag of jiffy pop. Oh, I thought it was going to be popcorn. I know, me too. Did you really?

Yes. I really did. I was like, oh yeah, because that pops. Yeah. And yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. Makes sense to me.

It all adds up. Should we explain jiffy pop in case people don't know what Jiffy Pop is? Google it. Okay, okay. So then investigators were like, yo, Royal Mail, we need your help on this. If you see a suspicious package, please let us know. Give us a ring. You'll notice I've infused this with the culture.

Full of Brit speak. Because one time in seventh grade, I went to England. Yes. You have Brit speak coming out your anus. I'm basically an expert. Ask me anything. Just a few hours later, the Royal Mail was like, yeah, we found three packages that you're going to want to take a look at. Okay.

Every other source said that it wasn't that like, oh, they flagged these packages. It was that these three packages didn't have enough postage on them. Oh. But it doesn't sound as heroic. But anyway. All right. All right. So investigators went to that local sorting office, and they grabbed a portable x-ray machine and began to very carefully examine the three suspicious packages.

And sure enough, they were all explosive devices. They disabled the devices by hand, sweating bullets the whole time. And at this point, investigators called a press conference and advised people to be very cautious with strange packages or unexpected packages, also big things in small packages and small men with big packages. And meanwhile, the Bond Squad was on high alert, ready to go. You know what? I've got an issue with you this episode. You seem embarrassed by me.

You don't seem fully behind all my hilarious jokes. I'm still salty about how you didn't like my bluey explanation. Explanation? It was more like a dissertation. I aged five years while you told me about that episode of Bluey. Whatever. But I looked six years while you told me about that episode of Bluey. Whatever. But I looked six years younger somehow. Join our Patreon for all my beauty tips.

There will be no beauty tips. Okay. Anyway, investigators placed two more adverts in the Echo, hoping they could get the bomber talking, BTK style. Oh. That dumbass. Yeah. Okay, is it dumb? He's a fucking dumbass.

Yeah. He was like, now don't lie to me. Yeah. Can you trace a floppy disk back to my church? Absolutely not. Oh, no. And then he was so upset with me. Yeah, he's like, you fucking lied to me. It's like, yeah, we're the police.

Okay, you fucking murdered a bunch of people. Yeah, we're trying to catch a murderer. Don't know if that's kind of our deal. You're the murderer. We're the ones who are supposed to catch you. Yeah, sorry, we didn't become best friends after this. No. Oh, what an ass.

For more on that case, check out episode 15. Was it 15? I have no idea. Well, Brandy covered it. Let me see. Hold on. Okay. Let's see? I have no idea. Well, Brandy covered it. Let me see. Hold on. Okay. Let's see if I'm right.

Is that your hold music? Yeah. Episode 15. Oh, she's good. Damn, she's good, folks. Woo. Okay. So they placed two more adverts in the Echo.

And everyone, please light a candle and look longingly out your nearest window as I tell you what these messages said. Sal, you didn't get back to me. You must have missed my last message. I have problems of my own. We can work this out together if you get in touch. I think these are way too fucking subtle. Okay, what would you say? I don't know. Oh, no, you don't get to criticize. I don't know.

I'm just saying. I'm thinking Sally could see these and be like, wow, looks like Sal's having some real relationship problems here. So you'd be like, Sally, don't you dare send more bombs. Sally, I know what you're up to. Let's discuss this. Well, that's very subtle as well.

No, it's not quite as subtle. How about this? How about Sally? The other day was explosive. Please get back. No. No? No.

Hey, that's not subtle. It's still not coming out and saying, hey, you're a big creepy bomber and I want to talk to you. Hey, bomber. Hey, Sally. I admire your work. That's how they're going to get Sally. I admire your work. That's how they're going to get Sally.

I admire your work? Yeah. Let me learn from you. Teach me your ways. Yeah, you got to compliment them. Okay. You don't like that idea? No, I hate it.

I hate it. I think it works on BTK. I don't think it works on Sally. Well, you know who Sally is. But Sally doesn't want compliments. Sally wants money. In it for the money. BTK was out killing people not for the money, but for the notoriety.

That's true. Yeah. And for the sexual gratification. Oh, gross. That dude. Yeah. He's a real fucking weirdo. You know,

sometimes when I'm having trouble sleeping, I... I'm sorry, where is this fucking going? No, I... Okay, I've told you before.

Sometimes when I'm really having trouble sleeping, I picture really scary things and I'm like, okay, if I don't move a muscle, then the bad guy can't get me. I sometimes picture BTK. It's deeply disturbing. I know.

I know. But I fall asleep because I'm like, well, I'm not moving a muscle if BTK's hanging around. Yeah. All right. All right. Okay. You know, I read that book by his daughter. I know.

So did I. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. I fucking pre-ordered book by his daughter. I know. So did I. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. I fucking pre-ordered that shit, Kristen. Brandy. Yeah. What'd you think? No.

Yeah. It's bad. Yeah. It's real bad. Okay. What did you not like about it? The list is too long. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We don't care about your fucking camping trips with your dad no he was a great dad until i found out he was murderer and he strangled my brother no no no a lot of religion yeah whole whole whole heap of jesus stuff in there which you know if jesus is your thing all right that's great good for you um slightly self-pitying. Yeah, like the whole...

She's real pissed about the way that they used her pap sample to catch her dad. I don't fucking care how they caught him. No, I don't either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They caught a serial murderer. Yeah. And they used your pap schme either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They caught a serial murderer. Yeah.

And they used your pap schmear. Sorry. It's not a bagel. And you didn't even get a bagel out of it. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't care for the... Yeah. All right.

All right. This concludes the book corner. Which always takes place in the middle of an unrelated episode. Yeah, it is. How is our podcast not big enough? I know! Are you ready for another one? Yeah.

Another advert? No, another book club. No, another... Now it's Sweet Valley High. And it is steamy. Sal, I'm not reluctant. Doing all I can, but finding it difficult to do as much each

day. No, I... Please understand this will take time. Okay, if I'm fucking Sally, I am not getting this. No? No. They're way too fucking subtle. Yeah, I mean, it is weird. Yeah. British people are more subtle than Americans, though. No, I don't care. What do you mean you don't care? This takes place...

I get it. Sally is not getting that these are for her or them. Okay. Because I'm not sure that Sally is a lady. Well, I'm thinking like it's a pseudonym of some kind, right? Or like an acronym. Or an anagram. Or an enneagram.

Is Sally a three? We don't know. We don't know. By this point, they still didn't know much about Sally, but they were pretty sure Sally was local. The fire at the post box had been local, plus one of the threats had been mailed to a Tesco in that same area. Clearly, Sally was thinking globally, terrorizing locally. So investigators figured that Sally lived within about a mile radius of where that burned-up post box was

and where that newscaster had found the original letter. So they started just crawling all over this one-mile area. Are there any security cameras pointing at that post box? Will you like keep your pants on? All right. Or your knickers on? Because we're in Jollywood. Britches.

Britches. Yeah. Britches. Keep your britches on. That's right. Keep your high-waisted britches on. That's my English bulldog's name. That make your butt look really long and beautiful.

Yeah, I don't want a long butt. Thank you. I think you'd look great with a long butt. No. Yes. No! Yes? No. I'm gonna get you a new pair of pants. I don't want them. How weird would that

be? If you showed up next week and I bought you a new pair of pants. Thanks, but no thanks, Kristen. I think pants are probably like the hardest thing you can buy for another person. Absolutely! Probably, like, jeans would be, unless, mmm, thanks, Kristen. I think pants are probably like the hardest thing you can buy for another person. Absolutely. Probably, like, jeans would be, unless, yeah, jeans would be like the hardest thing. The hardest thing.

Yeah. I mean, look how tough of a time you had buying Norm those joggers. What? What was so tough about finding them? Remember, he wanted fancy joggers, and then they didn't fit his big boy ankles. Okay, yeah. I bought Norm some really nice joggers, and it was clearly by one of these companies that, like, no, they're a little too high end.

They don't know how to make sweatpants. They just can't. And so poor Norm could barely get his Fred Flintstone feet through there. Anyway, again, that's neither here nor there. Not the point at all. Anyway, don't buy me pants. I do not want your long butt pants. Wow.

Okay. Very rude. So, you know, they're just crawling over this one mile area. And if you had the misfortune of being named Sally, they basically hopped on your back and you had to give them a piggyback ride everywhere you went. And of course, at the same time that they were getting piggyback rides from every Sally in town, they put up 24 hour surveillance cameras aimed at that one mailbox. Too late. She's not going to use the same post box. Maybe Sally's a fucking idiot. Well, all right. All mailbox. Too late. She's not going to use the same post box. Maybe Sally's a fucking idiot.

Well, all right. All right. Sally doesn't know that they made an unreasonable request. Sally doesn't know that you can't just like. Fiona and me do it in my van every Sunday. That's not Sally doesn't know. Scotty doesn't know. They also hung out by the post box, and they were masters of disguise, so they dressed

up like construction workers and just kind of casually leaned on the mailbox, and they dressed up like cowboys and like bikers. All the characters. From the YMCA. But they didn't do the cops, because that's just, you know, they're normal. They were already cops. And then Sally would be like, oh my gosh, it's real police. And they're like, well, we are real police, but we're dressed in costume and it's just really confusing.

Anyway, they realized they were kind of wasting time with the YMCA thing. So they stopped that. Very good. At this point. And they switched into their Navy uniform. Yes. Oh, God. What, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Oh, God.

What a catchy tune, huh? At this point, Sally had some ants in her pants or ants in her knickers, which doesn't sound nearly as good. No. She wanted her cash cards and she wanted them now. Uh-huh. So she sent them another letter. And this one was angry. Once again, we're working with all caps.

She said she was about to unleash a new generation of device, a pipe bomb. This pipe bomb would be capable of killing someone. She said she planned to put it in the garden of a Tesco customer. And the bomb squad was like, because they'd seen Sally's previous work. And they were like, yeah, if Sally could do that little MacGruber device, then she could definitely. MacGruber! MacGruber! So then she could definitely build a pipe bomb. Yeah. Also in this letter, Sally was like, we need a new way to communicate.

I'm done with the personal ads. They could be read by anyone. So here's a three-part cipher code we can keep communicating via the newspaper but we need to do it in code but once again sally wasn't terribly bright because that created a whole new problem because sally was basically telling them hey put a bunch of big blocks of nonsense text in the newspaper so So investigators reached out to a man named Neil Butterworth, who was the editor of The Echo. And the inventor of syrup. Okay, I know shit.

We are two paragraphs away from me saying no relation to Mrs. Butterworth. This episode is so stupid. You know what the problem is? The problem is I thought this documentary was stupid. And so I was just making fun of it the whole time. And now here we are with a bunch of jokes that were basically written by a 12-year-old. Excellent. So they talk to Neil.

And they're like, hey, friend, we've been secretly using your newspaper's classified sections to converse with an extortionist. And now we're going to give you this really weird block of letters and we need you to run it as it is. No changes. And please don't you dare tell any of your reporting staff about this. Don't explain it to the page designers or the ad staff. And if the queen pops in and asks what this is all about, you tell her you're team Harry and Meghan and you give her the cold shoulder. I think it's great what they did.

I do too. Mm-hmm. How do you feel about royalty? Meh. It sounds like a terrible life. Yeah, yeah. I mean, probably not as terrible as like poverty, but...

Right, exactly. But you know, still. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, probably not as terrible as like poverty. Right. But, you know, still. Yeah. And Neil Butterworth, no relation to Mrs. Butterworth, seemed thrilled to be in on the secret. And he was like, sure. So investigators sent him this message and it looked like gobbledygook. But when you applied the code, the message basically said, hey, Sally, cool code. By the way, you need to know that you can't get a thousand pounds out of an ATM. You're a dumbass. We need a new plan. Yeah. So the Echo ran these little ads and above the jumble of letters in an effort to not look like they were publishing random crap, they wrote above it. the potential of the human mind is phenomenal

but do you know how to make the most of yours so people were trying to solve it they literally challenged people to solve the cipher okay i was like you i was picturing you yeah because you know i see a jumble of some sort. I'm like, nope, pass. I would be like challenge accepted. Balls deep in that cipher. I've got to call in to work. Yeah. Everything is on hold until I figure out this cipher.

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. The echo lied to you. So while some investigators worked on getting this code into the Daily Echo, other investigators worked on figuring out where Sally's letter had come from.

And man, oh man, did they find out. Turns out, Sally, who couldn't have been terribly bright, had dropped off the most recent letter at the same mailbox she'd set fire to a few weeks earlier. Sally.

Oh, Sally, you're such a beautiful idiot. And as you may recall, they now had that post box under surveillance. And so they were like, gotcha, bitch. And they scrolled back through the footage and, oh, my God, they had footage of Sally. Grainy, dark, impossible to make out footage of someone most likely a human person judging from the shape of it dropping off a letter on a dark rainy night excellent very good very super useful it was really funny they showed the footage i mean you can't you can't see shit.

So investigators were thirsty as hell. They sent another coded message through the newspaper, and they were like, Yo, Sally, will you please agree to a money drop instead of the club cards? We sure would like to meet up with you and arrest you. I mean, just hang out. But Sally wasn't that stupid. Sally told them no and then stopped communicating with them. Cold turkey. And then investigators were like, yikes!

And they kept trying to communicate. And they kept thinking, holy shit, psycho Sally's going to bury a pipe bomb in someone's garden. And then on November 12, 2000, Sally sent another letter. She said that they had until December 12th to get her her money. Sally also referred to a map of Bournemouth and said that she'd send them a grid reference for the location of the pipe bomb. At this point, investigators were like, oh, shit. Tesco might actually have to make and distribute these cards. Our only hope is that we catch our suspect using those cards at an ATM.

Yeah. So they talked to Tesco, and Tesco started unhappily producing like 100,000 cash cards. Oh, my gosh. With the goal of maybe letting Sally cash in a few of them and hoping that the police caught Sally quickly enough so that they could deactivate the thousands of remaining cards. By this point, investigators had seven cameras on that Bradpole post box. I want to pause. One of the things they were afraid of was like, OK, what if we send out these cards in every copy of the paper? And then this person somehow gets word out, hey, go pick up a copy.

Yeah. And then like. Everybody's using the cards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like a big fuck you to Tesco. Mm hmm. go pick up a copy of the paper and then like everybody's using the cards yeah yeah yeah it's just like a big fuck you to Tesco mmhmm

oh my gosh so Tesco's working like crazy to produce these cards but it soon became clear they couldn't do it in time it was just too much so then investigators communicated with Sally again

and they were like don't be mad please be cool this is out of our control but we need more they were like, don't be mad. Please be cool. This is out of our control, but we need more time. Please, please, please, please don't plant that pipe bomb anywhere, you beautiful psycho. Okay, bye. Now we're in early December, and Sally sent another letter. And this time Sally was super duper pissed.

And Sally was like, this isn't college. You can't have an extension on your paper. I am serious. I am not playing around. I already planted the pipe bomb. You are too late. And then Sally gave the basic coordinates of the pipe bomb. And investigators went to look at the map.

And they were like, well, fuck. Because the coordinates were for a kilometer long stretch. And there were like 550 houses in this area. Oh, shit. There were so many places where a bomb could be planted. This, of course, became huge news. Police searched all over that area, and I'm sure people were scared shitless looking through the bushes,

and the news was like, hey, everyone, look out for weirdos in your garden. But the first day of the search didn't turn up anything. Without any turnips. Well, that was beautiful. Thank you. Do you like turnips? Do you? No.

I figured you didn't. I also don't care for turnips much. I mean, if they're roasted alongside some carrots and other vegetables, you know, I'll choke them down. But, you know, I'm not happy about it. Yeah. Then came the second day. They were searching and searching and searching, and all of a sudden, boom! Oh, my God, the bomb had gone off.

People rushed to where they'd heard the explosion, and it turned out to be a couple dudes messing around with some hydrogen balloons, having a bit of a giggle as one officer... So now it's December 7th. Hydrogen balloons, having a bit of a giggle as one officer. So now it's December 7th. The search had gone on for three days. And at this point, Sally sent them another letter. And Sally was like, oh, you guys are so nervous.

Calm down. I didn't really plant the device. Jeez, but don't think I won't. Give me my money. Quit stalling. And you're not going to believe this. But Sally used that same fucking post box she'd been using this entire time. For fuck's sake, Sally.

Well, at this point, it's not on the... I mean, it's kind of shame on them if they don't catch her at this point, right? So they had all this footage of that post box, and this time they knew because of the batch of mail and when it was picked up that Sally had dropped it off during the day in this, like, specific section of time. And that narrowed their bomber down to one of 38 people who were responsible for more than 100 letters that were in the post box at that time. The surveillance camera footage was pretty good this time.

And so investigators basically memorized the 38 faces and they hung out near the post box. And when they saw those people again, who were all obviously local, they followed some of them home, followed them to their cars. They got registration numbers. They had actually copied down some of the addresses on some of those letters and were like, hey, who sent that to you? Oh, OK, cool. But this was a very slow process yeah and in the course of this work they spotted someone unsettlingly familiar as it turned out one of those 38 people was a local police officer so they interrogated him and determined that he was innocent. Poor guy just wanted to send a letter. Oh, no!

And that's what we in the storytelling biz call a red herring. So now it's February 17th. This bullshit has been going on for like six months. But on that day, investigators spotted one of the people they'd been trying to identify. It was a middle-aged white guy, the scariest type. And he was carrying a plastic gas can down the road. He was walking in the opposite direction of a nearby gas station. So they were like, holy shit, he just got gas at that gas station.

His car ran out of gas. Yeah. Potentially. Okay. So they zoomed over to that gas station, and once they were there, they got surveillance footage of him buying the gas, and then they learned that, praise the Lord, he'd paid for his gas by check. Nope. Fucking weirdo. Yeah, who uses checks?

He's clearly the bomber. Anyone who writes checks these days is a bomber. They had his name, his address, the works. Turns out their guy was a 50-year-old unemployed electrician and widower named Robert Edward Dyer. He lived with his two teenage daughters and he had no criminal record. Investigators immediately began surveilling him. criminal record. Investigators immediately began surveilling him. But Robert Edward Dyer was super boring to surveil.

He just like visited his mom and ran some errands. He seemed like a pretty normal guy. So after two days of the world's most boring surveillance, they decided to knock on the door of his quite small two-bedroom bungalow. Sounds bitchy to, you know, anyway. Yeah. And because this was old timing times, they asked if they could insert a disk into his computer, and that disk would start up a program

that would search for keywords on any documents, words like prejudice, spelled hilariously incorrectly, Sally, bomb, pipe, deployment, and then any document with those words would pop up. So two officers talked to Robert while the other one put the disk in Robert's computer, and sure enough, a bunch of Sally's letters popped up. They'd finally found the Tesco bomber. So they arrested him, but Robert maintained his innocence.

Meanwhile, investigators searched his home, and in the kitchen they found in the boiler a folded-up piece of paper which turned out to be the coded notes with the cipher that he'd used to communicate with police. They also found footage of him sending one last letter, which he sent out the day before he was arrested, and it's the same fucking postbox. Anyway, the jig is up is what I'm trying to tell you.

And it's the same fucking post box. Anyway, the jig is up is what I'm trying to tell you. So on May 4th, 2001, he pled guilty to nine counts of blackmail and one count of common assault for the bomb that went off on Gene Evans. At his sentencing, Prosecutor Derwin Hope said, the evidence shows clearly that this is a very devious man. What it revealed is a deliberate, sustained, and indeed cunning blackmail that was only stopped by massive police resources. Was it that cunning? No, I don't agree. No, yes, this took massive resources.

Yeah. And yeah, it was really bad, but I mean. Yeah. Well, and actually, I don't think it holds a candle to the baby food thing. I don't either. The poison Tylenol. No. Because, I mean, the little bombs, like, yes, that's terrible.

Yeah. But ultimately no one was killed, and it doesn't sound like anyone was even seriously hurt. Boy, I'm defending this guy. How great. By this point, Robert had admitted that he'd committed the crime not out of some weird vendetta against Tesco, but because he was having money problems, and Tesco seemed to have plenty of money to spare. Oh, my goodness. He said he'd been inspired to extort Tesco after going to the doctor's office. While he was in the waiting room, he read a Reader's Digest article titled How to Catch a Blackmailer.

It was all about that terrible shithead Rodney, the police officer who tainted the baby food. And Robert said that, you know, he was just inspired oh my gosh he also said that he signed his letters sally okay i want you to guess why um i don't know yeah he had a dog named sally once that yeah so there had been all this sort of like why sally what's the deal oh sally's up no they had a dog named Sally. Oh, my gosh. So if anyone's like, I'm Peanut the bomber, you'll know. Yeah.

At sentencing, the prosecution said that Robert had worn gloves when he handled his letters and he'd used water to put on the stamp so he wouldn't give police his DNA. Which, like, you're doing all that, but you're not, like, going to different... Yeah. Okay. Okay. Robert's defense attorney, Richard Onslow, pointed out that the four explosives that Robert had sent in the mail were just little party poppers. He said, they were not devices intended to harm.

The chances of people being harmed were small. Hmm. Which, I mean, they were intended to harm. Yeah. Put that in your pipe and blow it up. Nope. But the judge was unmoved and sentenced Robert to 16 years. But Robert appealed and his sentence was dropped to 12 years. And Robert was released from prison in 2007.

Wow. So he served like no time. He served half of it. Yeah. He served like no time. Yeah. And that's the story of the Tesco bomber. Wow.

Was that too silly? No. You know what I think we ought to do now? What? I think we ought to take a break for a word from our sponsors. And we're back. Okay. I watched an Oxygen show about this case.

Of course you did. I'm not going to tell you the name of it until the end. Because it reveals everything. Why do they do this at Oxygen? I know. I know. And I also watched a 48 Hours about this. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, but if I tell you... Yeah. We'll save it. I'll tell you at the end. The husband did it. Yeah. Drowned in a bathtub.

Right. Yeah. It says the whole thing. It does. It all started with a tragedy. It was the morning of October 29th, 2008, when the secretary of Reader's United Methodist Church in Reader's, Pennsylvania, arrived at work and made a disturbing discovery. In the pastor's office, the secretary found the body of Joe Musante. He was slumped over the pastor's desk, and he had died by suicide.

How many stories are you going to cover? Like, lately you have been covering ones that make me have such bad deja vu. I mean, legit, this case is going to be like, wait, what? What? Didn't you already? What? Okay. Brandi, did you just get lazy?

Did you just change some names? And you're like, no, this is a new case. I swear to you, I've not done this case, but there are pieces that seem to be pulled directly from other cases I've done. Okay. Joe Musante was a longtime parishioner of Reader's United Methodist Church. He had turned to the church for help with his battles with alcoholism and had found a lot of strength and guidance there. As a carpenter by trade, Joe had given back to the church by doing woodworking, repairs and updates around the building. In fact, he had made the very desk he was found slumped over with his own two hands.

Many people within the church knew that Joe had been struggling. He was open about his battles with alcoholism, and many knew that he and his wife Cindy had in recent months been seeing the minister for private marriage counseling. But his death was a shock to many, including his Sth chapel. Everyone at the Sistine Chapel was just shocked. They were shocked by it. And so was his 16-year-old daughter, Samantha, and his sister, Rose Cobb. When Rose heard about her brother's death, she was immediately skeptical.

She couldn't believe that he would take his own life. Her suspicions only increased when she met with Joe's widow, Cindy, the day before his funeral. Now, I believe that Rose knew Joe and Cindy were having some marital issues and that they had been going to counseling at their church. having some marital issues and that they had been going to counseling at their church. But she was really surprised when she came into town for the funeral to find that Cindy was not behaving like a grieving widow. Rose described her behavior more like that of a giddy schoolgirl. Ew. Mm-hmm.

Okay, there's no right way to grieve. I know. But that is wrong. It's weird. It's weird. And, there's no right way to greet. I know. But that is wrong. It's weird. It's weird. And Rose was like, what the fuck? And so she called Cindy on her weird behavior. Yeah. And Cindy gushed to her that she was in love with her pastor.

What? A.B. Shermer. Rose was like, shocked. Why was Cindy telling her this the day before her brother's funeral? This woman's husband. Yeah. Rose asked her if they'd been having an affair. And Cindy kind of like played coy about the whole thing.

And she hemmed and hawed and was like, you know, that depends on your definition of an affair. Ew, what? Blah, blah, blah. Oh, yeah. Perfect time to be cute. Yeah, and Cindy went on to explain that their connection was deeply emotional. Okay, that's like, we're deep into fucking.

But that wasn't the whole story. Rose learned that Joe and Cindy's daughter, Samantha, had actually found out about the relationship after she'd found emails between A.B. and Cindy. And she worried that her dad would find out about the relationship and suffer a major setback in his recovery efforts. Oh, that's terrible. Yeah, to Samantha, it was just the last thing her dad needed. Yeah. It was just the last thing her dad needed.

Yeah. So Samantha had created a fake email account and used it to message the pastor and Cindy and let them know that someone knew about their relationship. She's 16. Just so much for her to have to deal with. This plan had kind of backfired though. A.B. and Cindy quickly figured out that the email came from Samantha and they brought her into the pastor's office and sat her down and told her she was

wrong. She'd misinterpreted what she read. Oh, I'm sure. And that was that. Samantha didn't believe them. That's a heaping, helping a gaslighting. Samantha didn't believe them. That's a heaping, helping a gaslighting. Gaslighting, yeah. Yeah.

Samantha didn't believe them, but she was a kid and they were adults. Yeah. And so she didn't say anything to anyone else. Ugh. Until her dad came to her asking questions. Oh, no. And then she told him about the emails that she'd found. He asked Samantha if she thought her mom was in love with A.B.

And Samantha told him yes, she believed that she was. Samantha said she will never forget the look of devastation she saw on her father's face the day she told him that. Yeah. After this conversation with his daughter, Joe had confronted Cindy about the affair. And she had kind of owned up to it so that it had been just messages and whatever. But she'd promised to end it. and whatever, but she'd promised to end it.

But soon, Joe discovered that she was still making secret phone calls to the pastor. And when confronted about it again, Cindy said she was done. Done with what? Done with Joe. She left the house. She took the kids with her. They also had a son who was younger than Samantha. And she instructed her children not to answer calls from their dad.

Oh. Joe called Samantha over and over and over that day. But she did as her mother said and didn't answer his calls. The following morning, Samantha checked her voicemail and there was a message from her dad. In it, he said, if you love me at all, please call me back. Oh, no. That was the same morning that Joe Musante was found dead in the pastor's office. Oh.

I just think that's like heartbreaking. Yeah. After hearing all of this, Rose was really concerned that maybe her brother hadn't taken his own life. Maybe Cindy and A.B. had needed them out of their way so that they could be together. So she started looking into A.B. a little bit more. Is his name A.B.? His name is like Arthur Burton or something like that. And he goes by A.B.

So she started looking in to A.B. a little bit and she just thought, I don't know. She had a weird feeling about him. And she found out that he was kind of surrounded by tragedy. Oh, great. Everyone he doesn't like dies. Just three months earlier, his wife, Betty, had died in a car accident. And nine years before that, his first wife had died after falling down their stairs. Oh, God.

Randy, you and your staircases. Yeah. Rose just had this really uneasy feeling about A.B. Shermer. Yeah. And thought the timing just seemed coincidental. Too coincidental. She wanted to be sure that A.B.

and Cindy hadn't played a bigger role in her brother's death. So she went to the Pennsylvania State Police and asked them if they'd take another look at his death, considering the new information that she'd learned about the affair. And they agreed to do so. But upon further investigation, it was determined that all the evidence at the scene pointed to suicide. And A.B. and Cindy both had airtight alibis for when Joe died. A.B. was an hour away with several witnesses, and Cindy was with her children. A.B. was an hour away with several witnesses and Cindy was with her children. Detective Jim Wagner with the Pocono Township Police Department, who'd been assigned to take another look at Joe's death, agreed with what the state police had originally determined in the case.

Joe Masante had died by suicide. But something Rose had said stuck out to Detective Wagner. She'd mentioned that A.B.'s wife, Betty, had died in a car accident just three months earlier. And to Detective Wagner, that seemed like a pretty big coincidence as well. Yeah. So he decided to look at the accident report. So he decided to look at the accident report. The accident had occurred on the morning of July 15th, 2008. A.B. said that he had had to rush his wife Betty to the hospital with jaw pain.

He told the responding officers that he was traveling at 50 to 55 miles per hour when a deer jumped out into the road. And he had to swerve, and he lost control of the car, and they struck a guardrail. So this guy, Stan Dickerson, is driving home that morning. It's, I think, still dark out. It's like early morning. And he's driving home, and he sees this PT cruiser that has hit a guardrail and he stops to help. He gets out and he goes up to the car and he says, he talks to A.B. and he says, are you OK? What's going on? What happened?

And A.B. says, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm fine, but I don't think my wife is. And then he like opened the door or turned on the dome light. And this guy, this Stan Dickerson, thought that was just like a really weird thing to say and then he looks over at betty who is sitting in the car and he sees like there's a lot of blood there yeah and so he's like okay yeah yeah it looks like she's hurt and And he's like, have you called 911? And A.B. said, no, I haven't. Well, what the fuck? And so the guy's like, OK.

And so he gets out his phone and he calls 911 and calls in the, you know, the dispatcher answers. And he's like, somebody hit a guardrail. There's a woman here. She's hurt. There's actually two people in the car, but the guy seems totally fine. And so they send ambulances and they're there like within a couple of minutes. They rush Betty to Lehigh Valley Hospital and she is severely injured. She has a wound to the left side of her head and two gashes on the right side of her head.

The doctors said Betty's injuries were too bad. She wouldn't recover. She was taken off life support the next day. So at the hospital, right after Betty was taken off of life support, the coroner was brought in to do just like a standard, you know, death investigation. And they talked to A.B. And he told the coroner that he'd been driving 50 to 55 miles per hour. That deer had jumped up. The vehicle had spun violently out of control. And then it had struck the guardrail and then like actually like spun around and hit it again and then like spun back.

OK, so that guardrail should have paint all over it. So it was so violent that Betty was just flying around the vehicle. And the reason that Betty had died and he was uninjured was that Betty didn't have her seatbelt on. They had been. He told the coroner that she had been uncomfortable. told the coroner that she had been uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. And so she just undone her seatbelt to kind of reposition and then was going to put it back on right as the deer jumped out.

Terrible timing. Mm-hmm. Now, A.B. Schirmer has a couple of adult daughters as well from his first marriage. Schirmer has a couple of adult daughters as well from his first marriage. And he told them a similar story, that they had been in that accident, that Betty had just undone her seatbelt because she was uncomfortable. She was just trying to get uncomfortable. And then that's when the deer.

She was just trying to get uncomfortable? I'm sorry. She was just trying to get comfortable. And that's when the deer appeared. Just like you said, bad timing. Mm-hmm. And that's when the deer appeared. Just like you said, bad timing. But he told Betty's sister a different story.

Come on, man. He told Betty's sister that Betty just hadn't put on her seatbelt that morning. And immediately her sister was like, nope, nope, Betty always wears her seatbelt. And so he, like, continues on. She's like, what do you mean she didn't have her seatbelt on? And he's like, oh, you know, it's just kind of this weird thing she's been doing. It's this little game she's been playing. She likes to see how far we can get down the road before the little seatbelt alarm starts beeping.

That's the dumbest game I've ever heard in my life. Yeah. And the sister's like, what? Yeah. No. That's not a game anyone plays. I know. Doesn't sound like Betty does it.

And she's like, no, it doesn't. It does not. Yeah. But you know what, Brandy? I'm looking at you and the seatbelt thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I always wear my seatbelt.

No, you don't. When I'm driving or riding as the passenger in the front seat. It's not the 1970s. Brandy, you have to wear it. I know. You have shamed me into wearing my seatbelt even when I'm a passenger in the backseat. I do it now because of you.

I really thought it was pretty safe back there. No, it's not. Okay. You've seen. I know. I was like, I remember the first time I saw you back there just sliding all over the place. Sliding all over the place. I about killed you myself. You did. Yeah. You did. I wear my seatbelt even in the backseat now.

I have always worn my seatbelt as a driver or a front seat passenger. Always. Well, no shit. I mean. Yes. You're acting like. I know. That's not a weird thing.

I think everybody does it. Everybody wears their seatbelt all the time. Okay. I don't think everybody wears it in the backseat, Kristen. Okay. Yeah. If they're like old. And they're like, I mean, that's why I was so shocked because that seems like, I don't know.

That seems like a hillbilly boomer is in the back seat and they're like, oh, no seatbelts needed here. But I'm looking back at you. And I didn't have my seatbelt. My youthful friend. Okay, I've learned. Have you? I have. Have you? I have. Have you? I have.

Have you had the shamrock shake yet? I haven't. So, you've still got floss. Maybe I'll get it tonight. Maybe. Maybe. I'm sick of these maybes. God, a shamrock shake sounds good. That does sound good. Anyway. Okay.

So, the sister is like, this doesn't make any fucking sense. Mm-hmm. But that didn't really go anywhere. Well, yeah. I mean, where does it go? Exactly. So the day after Betty was removed from life support, she was cremated at A.B.'s insistence.

Of course she was. And again, Betty's sisters were like, Betty was against cremation. Oh. What are you doing? And A.B.'s like, no, we had a whole conversation. You know, she wanted to be cremated. We've even picked out an urn already. It's this beautiful wooden box.

Got a beautiful carving of a deer on it. Isn't that funny? Oh, God. That's what he said. Isn't that funny? No, it's not. No! And Betty, I can guarantee you, didn't pick out that urn and did not want to be

cremated. How old was Betty-ish? Sixty. Okay. Yeah, I would guess. Okay. Okay. I'm just trying to think, at what point do you have that cremation conversation? And yeah, 60s, you know.

Yeah, you probably do. Yeah. You probably do. But there's lots of people who are against cremation for religious reasons. Yeah. There's all kinds. And so Betty's sisters were like, nope, nope, nope. She is against cremation.

Yeah, that's not her. And he's like, no. We had a whole conversation about it. Everybody be cool. Be cool. And also, can we get it moving? Mm-hmm. Within 24 hours of her death, she was cremated.

What's normal? I don't think that. Well, I mean, sorry, not to be. I mean, you can't leave the body just laying around. That's what I'm saying. Yes, absolutely. I mean. I don't know.

Okay. It seems fast to me. Okay. Betty's death was ruled an accident. Do you want to be cremated? Oh, really? Okay, here's my deal. Okay, what's your deal? I think cremation makes the most sense financially and all of that.

Mm-hmm. It scares me. Why does it scare you? Because I saw the movie Scrooged when I was a little kid. Okay? Uh-huh. Which is like a comical version of obviously Christmas Carol. In it, Bill Murray plays the Scrooge character.

Okay. And in one of his, you know, things with the ghosts of Christmas, whatever, he is cremated alive. And you think that's what's going to happen? I mean, I'm scared it could happen. Very scared it could happen. Okay. Well, noted. Noted. Hey. Very scared it could happen. Okay. Well, noted. Noted.

Okay. All right. All right. Okay. So, yes, financially it makes the most sense. Funerals, caskets, all that, very pricey. Then you've got to buy a plot and you've got to have a vault inside that plot, which is also very expensive. So I don't know.

But what's the cost of being burned alive? Exactly. You know, that's another thing you must consider. Because you will be alive. Don't say that. I guarantee you there is someone else out there that has the same fear because of that fucking movie. I have a fear of being buried alive. Oh, okay.

And so I would prefer to be cremated. I mean, that's quick. You know, light me up. Okay. I have seen this very cool thing, which I think, you know, I'm not like a big granola-y person. Is it the jewelry thing? No, it's the biodegradable bag. You get buried in like a biodegradable bag and it's like seeds of a tree and you grow into a tree.

I thought you were going to say like then you toss it in with your granola. No. No, I love that. I think that sounds amazing. Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. What if? Now, this is bad.

My tree is cut down and turned into a coffin. No, I was going to say, because, like, I have terrible luck with plants. I kill everything. Yeah, somebody kills my tree. Yeah, and then it's like, oh, well, now I'm the worst person on earth. Yeah, I mean, that'd be disappointing. It sure would. It sure would. It sure would.

Anyway, so Betty's death ruled an accident. Case is closed. No autopsy is done. No investigation further than a basic accident report is done. Because at this time, even with those weird little inconsistencies about what A.B. said, no one had questioned it really yeah it was an accident it was sad yeah except for that hilarious deer thing yeah just so funny yeah fucking weirdo yes but now in light of the new information detective Detective Wagner was like, holy shit.

Was this not an accident? And so he started going over the pictures from the accident with a fine-tooth comb. And it just didn't add up to him. So thankfully, because this was a fatality accident, there were at least pictures of the accident scene. Yeah. Though no autopsy or anything was done, he at least had that to go back to. I'm sorry, was there an autopsy? There was no autopsy.

Really? Nobody was questioning the death at that time, Kristen. I'm starting to catch on. Excellent. And she was cremated quite quickly. Within 24 hours. Okay, I got you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Thank you. Yep. And the lesson from that episode of Bluey was. It's sometimes better to be nice than to be right. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. And also, Grady's slip on beans.

Anyway. From the get-go, the accident scene didn't make sense. There were no skid marks. A.B. described the vehicle as traveling at this high rate of speed and swerving out of control. And it hit the guardrail one way and then it spun around and hit the other. And that was the reason that Betty was thrown about in the car and had injuries to both sides of her head. Yeah.

But there was no evidence of that. Additionally, the damage to the car was minimal. The airbags hadn't even deployed. Yeah, come on. It was drivable after the accident. Oh, come on. There was change stacked up in the

little slots on the center console. That didn't get jostled, but she was jostled so badly she died. Yep. Okay. We gotta talk to the officer on the scene. I mean. That's ridiculous. Yeah. We got to talk to the officer on the scene. I mean. That's ridiculous. Yeah.

Then there was the blood. We know that that passerby who had called the police when the dome light had come on, he had seen a lot of blood in the car. And there was. There was lots of blood on Betty's seat. But none splattered everywhere? But the blood spots had this, like, diluted look to them, like they were absorbed into the fabric. And they were underneath where Betty's body would have been. underneath where Betty's body would have been.

To Detective Wagner, it looked like Betty had been sitting in the blood for some time. Likely, she had been bleeding when she was put into the car. To the detective, this didn't look like Betty had died in an accident. It looked like A.B. had staged the accident to cover up the fact that he'd murdered her. Yeah. So following this revelation, the investigation into Betty Shermer's death was officially reopened.

And the Monroe County, Pennsylvania District Attorney's Office started building a case against A.B. Shermer. But they needed more. This wasn't quite enough. Yeah. So by this time, all of the information about the affair had come out and A.B.

had been forced to resign his position as pastor at the church. He'd been ousted. People were pretty pissed at him. And all of these rumors were going around now about like, holy shit, did he murder his wife? And what the hell? Did they have something to do with Joe's death? And oh, my gosh.

And so he had been kicked out of the parsonage where he was living, which is like the little house that the church provides the pastor. And so they get a permit to search the parsonage where A.B. and Betty had lived. Almost immediately, Detective Wagner noticed what looked like blood droplets on the floor of the garage. Oh, Lord. And when they sprayed the area with luminol, a blood trail lit up on the floor of the garage. And then it just like stopped.

And so they made a little diagram of the garage and the blood trail. And they made like a little overlay of the PT Cruiser where it would be parked in the garage and the blood in the PT Cruiser. And wouldn't you know that that blood trail led right to where the PT Cruiser passenger door would be. And then the trail continued into the PT Cruiser. Weird. Yeah. Weird. At this same time, while they're doing this search on the parsonage, investigators brought A.B. into the police department to interview him.

And he's kept to his story about the crash. And then they asked him about the blood in the garage. And he had a whole... That's the funniest story. Okay, so here's what happened. Are you ready? I am so excited to hear it. Months ago, months ago, we had this stack of wood piled up in the garage.

And it was just a real pain in the skunch to try and get in and out of that passenger door with that wood pile there. And so Betty got a bee in her bonnet that she was going to move that wood pile out to the yard so that she'd have an easier time getting in and out of the car. And she'd cut herself while she was moving that wood. And that's where the blood came from. And they were like, okay, all right. Interesting story. And so they went back to the parsonage and looked out in the yard for a woodpile, and they did find one.

So they started looking through the woodpile and at the bottom of it, under the stack of wood, was a newspaper that was dated September 21st, 2008, three months after Betty died. Oh. Yeah. Wow. Oh. Yeah. Wow. Mm-hmm. So to investigators, this was like, okay, well, obviously she didn't move the fucking wood then.

Yeah. Yeah. AB's lying. So prosecutors are working to build a case against AB, but it was difficult because this was largely circumstantial. The only physical evidence they have is the blood in the car and the blood in the garage area there. But will a jury think that's enough? Stay tuned to find out. They needed to make sure they had enough to secure a conviction.

So they're like putting all this stuff together. Months go by. They at one point like convene a grand jury and they do like a nine month grand jury investigation into this case. And it's like completely hush hush, super secret, kind of like that project hornbill. Yeah. Ornbill. Ornbill. Do I make you orny?

And so that's all going on like behind the scenes. Yeah. Orn bill. Orn bill. Do I make you orny, baby? And so that's all going on, like, behind the scenes. And then in September of 2010, Samantha Musante comes to the police. This is the daughter of Joe and Cindy. Right. And she's like, I'm afraid for my mom's safety. Oh, shit. And they're like, OK, tell us more. And she said that she'd heard the rumors about A.B. being responsible for Betty's death.

And that there was also a rumor that maybe he was responsible for his first wife's death. And he had just proposed to her mother. Oh, shit. Oh, that would be terrifying. And she was worried that she would be next. Yeah. her mother oh shit oh that would be terrifying that she would be next yeah samantha had already like moved out of her mom's house at this point she moved out as soon as she was old enough she had like no relationship with her mother at this point yeah but she didn't want something to happen

to her of course not and so they decided like it was time to act. It was time to like have an official indictment brought down from the grand jury. And so on September 13th, 2010, A.B. Shermer was arrested and charged with the first degree murder of Betty Shermer. While he was in jail awaiting trial, investigators went to work to put together a case for against Shermer for the murder of his first wife, Jewel. So they started investigating that. So Jewel had died after a fall down the concrete basement stairs at the parsonage where she and A.B. had lived, a different parsonage, like in the next town over or something like that. town over or something like that. Supposedly, she was vacuuming the stairs with a shop vac and had fallen or gotten her leg caught in the cord or something.

And it was just a terrible accident. Right? Wrong. Now, with all of this other stuff going on, the authorities were like, we better take another look at this. And so they asked the original medical examiner who had done Jules' autopsy to take another look and to look at Betty's death as well. look at Betty's death as well. And so, okay, in case everybody has forgotten, there was no autopsy done. What?

In Betty's death. Why didn't you tell us? Why are we just now learning this information? But when she had arrived at the hospital, they had done an MRI of her head to assess all of the injuries that she had sustained. So he like made a 3D model out of those MRIs so he could compare Betty's injuries to Jewel's injuries. Shit. Oh. And they were nearly identical.

Yeah. Yeah. It was insane. Like one blow to one side, two blows to the other. They lined up almost perfectly. Ross, this coroner who had performed Jules' autopsy in 1999, he had determined he when he had done Jules' autopsy, he had listed her cause of death as undetermined. Right. And he had suggested that it warranted further investigation. But no further investigation had ever been done. One source I saw gave a sort of explanation for this.

So after Jewel died, they were like assessing her organs for possible for possible organ donation. And they noticed damage to her heart. And so I guess they were like, oh, she had a heart attack and fell down the stairs. And I guess they were like, oh, she had a heart attack and fell down the stairs. And so that just kind of like ended any whatever kind of speculation about. Yeah. So they're like taking another look at this now, the 10 years later, 12 years later, whatever.

And Dr. Ross is like, holy shit, did I get this wrong the first time? I mean, maybe I should have pushed this more. Like, I'm going to be very involved in this. Let's get to the bottom of this. And so he goes with investigators to the parsonage where Jewel and A.B. lived. And they perform all of these tests using crash test dummies on the exact same steps where Jewel died. They pushed the dummies down the stairs. They threw the dummies down the stairs.

They dropped the dummies down the stairs. They threw the dummies down the stairs. They dropped the dummies down the stairs. They got them caught up in a vacuum cord. They did everything they could to attempt to recreate Jewel's injuries. But in every instance, they were unsuccessful. They could not recreate the fatal injuries to Jewel's head without also breaking her ribs, her legs, her arms. And Jewel had none of those injuries.

So after these tests were completed, Jewel's death certificate was officially changed. Her manner of death went from undetermined to homicide. On January 8th, 2013, almost four and a half years after Joe Musante's death, the thing that had kind of started this whole investigation, the trial against A.B. Schirmer began. The prosecutor got up and started his case and he coined the term sinister minister. Well done, sir. I know.

When describing A.B. Schirmer, he said, in this case, there is a pattern of deception with Reverend Shermer. His whole life has been based on deceit and pretense. He's a wolf in sheep's clothing or maybe better yet, a wolf in shepherd's clothing. OK. Hmm. OK. The prosecution painted A.B. as like this womanizer, this man who was obsessed with sex and would do anything to get it. They presented members of his church and previous churches that he had been a pastor at. He had propositioned countless women. Good Lord.

Mm-hmm. Ugh. And then Samantha Musante took the stand. She was kind of the centerpiece of the prosecution's case. And she talked about how she had discovered the affair between her mother and A.B. And how she'd, you know, confronted them about it and they gaslighted her. And then she told her dad and how she really felt like A.B. was a predator. Yeah.

Who saw her mom as vulnerable after seeking that marriage counseling. Yeah. And had prayed on her. Yeah. That's sick. Yeah. Yeah. Samantha is interviewed on this episode of 48 Hours and she says that this was such an empowering thing to her to testify.

She stared A.B. down the entire time she gave her testimony. And it just felt so good, she said, just to look him in the eye and tell everybody what he was after what he had done to their family. The defense's position was basically, yeah, A.B.'s a shitty guy. He treated his wife badly. He had lots of affairs. Loved sex. Loved pornography. But that doesn't make him a murderer.

Fair enough. Yeah. And in a surprise move, A.B. took a stand in his own defense. Of course he did. So he gets up there. And he does. Ready to preach. Oh, my gosh.

He does the thing. The prosecutor said that they were shocked by this. He got up there to the stand, you know, did his little hand on the Bible thing. And then he repositioned his chair so that he was facing the jury. Oh. Okay. Mm-hmm. He did okay under examination by his own attorney.

Uh-huh. He kind of came off hollow and, like, there was there was like no empathy there, no real emotion or anything. It seemed very rehearsed, very coached. His testimony was nothing really seemed genuine about him. And then when he was cross examined, he became extremely defensive, almost hostile. And it was it was bad. When he left the stand, he apparently told one of the sheriff's deputies that was like escorting him back to wherever that he had just given himself life in prison. He knew that he had done poorly on the stand.

That kind of surprises me that he said that. I know. Because I think of this person as so arrogant that they might actually... So he's a little aware. He is a little aware, yeah. He's at least aware of the effect he has on people. That's interesting. Yeah.

The defense fought really hard to keep the stuff about Jewel's death out of court. They called the investigation with the crash test dummies junk science and said the results of those tests didn't amount to anything more than throwing a log down a flight of stairs. But ultimately, the judge allowed it in. And the jury heard about how A.B.'s first wife had died and how similar her injuries were to Betty's. That's interesting. Yeah. A lot of times they don't let that shit in. I know.

Okay. I know. The jury deliberated for 90 minutes. Oh, they were certain. Yep. Before they found A.B. Shermer guilty. He was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. Prosecutors were then prepared to try A.B. for the murder of his first wife jewel they'd put

together a case but then kind of like in a secret deal it seems like the defense reached out to the prosecution and said hey we'll plead down to third degree murder just to avoid another trial and so they took the deal and he pled no contest okay to third degree murder, which basically says, I'm not admitting guilt, but yeah, you got a lot of evidence against me. And he was sentenced to 40 years to be served consecutively to his life sentence. So in other words, he's never getting out of prison. Well, I don't know. It depends on if he lives to be 300.

Or, okay. What? I if he lives to be 300. Or. Okay. What? I think he's guilty. Yeah. I think he could appeal based on them letting the stuff about Jewel in at his trial. Yeah, but does it? I mean, how many cases have we covered where they allow that stuff in?

Like, it never happens. It never happens. Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. I don't feel great about that. There's a real chance at an appeal there in a new trial. I just think he sounds like a great guy.

Cindy is still engaged to him. No. She thinks he's 100% innocent. She said that on the stand oh god her poor daughter her daughter has no relationship with her she does not speak to her you wouldn't um ab's adult daughters with his first wife, they believe he is an innocent man. They are also interviewed on this episode of 48 Hours. And the reporter is like, OK, but what do you say about the injuries?

And one of the daughters is like, I don't believe it. I don't believe what they're saying. And the interviewer is like, but it's coming from the medical examiner. Yeah. And she's like, I don't believe him. Yeah. Yeah. They completely believe that their

father is an innocent man and that he is serving life in prison for two murders that he did not commit. Oh, God. Investigators say that A.B. Shermer was extremely close to getting away with murder. Had Rose Cobb not brought them all of that information kind of in that neat little ball like, hey, look at this, my brother, you know, and then there was this affair and weird timing with timing with his wife right and then also how weird that his other wife died in a weird accident

had she not done that they likely never would have investigated him yeah oh the show that i watched on this on oxygen okay if this is not the most brandy show on the planet so i've got to watch more episodes. I've only seen this one episode. The Bloody Bloody Murder Show? Accident, murder, or suicide. That's the name of the show. Oh, God.

It's like, okay, you know how in marketing they have like personas? Yeah. And they're like, but would Sally enjoy this? Mm-hmm. Oxygen, it's just like literally you. Yeah. And they're like, but would Sally enjoy this? Mm-hmm. Oxygen, it's just like literally you. Yeah. It is literally you. They've got a poster of you.

Yes. Would Brandy watch this? She'd watch the shit out of that. Okay. Yeah. Game show about murder coming up next. I think that would be amazing. I know, right?

Okay. The thing that I think is so interesting about this case is there's so many similarities to the case I did on the bonus episode. Yeah. But I totally go the other way on this. I know. Why do you think you go this way on it? Well, first of all, I think there is actual evidence here.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think that's the case. On the other one. On the other one. I agree. Yeah. Yeah.

And I don't think that's the case. On the other one. On the other one. I agree. And then also, I think there's way too many examples of A.B. Shermer being a trash human being. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Gotta say I agree. Yep. You know what I think we ought to do right now? Oh, questions from the Discord? I'm thinking questions from the Discord. But how do they get in there? Well, I'll tell you because you're busy bebopping around.

If you want into the Discord and you want access to bonus episodes, just sign up at the $5 level on our Patreon. You know, when we advertised the Patreon earlier, I don't think we talked about like... Oh, we didn't talk about the levels. Jesus Christ. We've got all the levels. Three of them. That's right. One, two, three. At the $5 level, you get the bonus episodes. Monthly bonus

episodes. Monthly bonus episodes. Get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away at the $7 level. That's the Supreme Court level. You get all that plus bonus videos. You get to learn about Brandy's secret cookie recipe. By the way,

this month's bonus episode, I think it's me repiercing your lip for you. It's fucking not. I've got a needle and some rubbing alcohol. Nope. I've got some ice and a lot of confidence. Nope. Well, we'll see. Just noodle on that for a while. Okay, I'll noodle it away.

Also, at the $7 level, you get a sticker. You get... A card with our autographs in it. I almost said a free sticker. It's not free. You pay for it. You pay for it. You absolutely pay for it.

Yep. And then at the $10 level... Oh, wait. At the $7 level, you also get inducted. Yeah. At the end of this podcast. Gosh. Gosh. There's so many perks we can't name them all. Oh, wait. At the $7 level, you also get inducted. Yeah. At the end of this podcast. Gosh. Gosh.

There's so many perks we can't name them all. Because we forget. And we're dumb. Just like Sally going to that same post box. And then there's the $10 level. That's the Bob Moss level. Tell them what they've won. Oh, my gosh.

You get all that stuff we've already mentioned so eloquently. Plus, you get episodes a day early and you get them ad free. Plus, wait there's more. You get 10% off merch. Woo! Man.

Hot diggity dog. Oh my god. Nugget falling out of pants wants to know. Okay, that's an inside joke from the bonus episode. What's a rumor you heard about yourself in high school? See, I wasn't cool enough to have rumors about me. Did you have a rumor, Patrick? I don't think I had rumors about me.

Well, boy. Yeah. Really did that. Super cool. Yep. Pretty cool. Oh cool oh actually there was one what okay this it actually makes so much sense what because i laugh all the time uh-huh there was a rumor that i was like a huge pothead oh yeah yeah okay so they thought you were just high as a kite. Yeah. When really you were just high on life.

Just high on life. I've literally never been. I've never smoked pot in my life. Wow. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I say wow like that.

Yeah. Who told me that? Who? We'll have to bleep the name, but. Oh, well. The biggest pothead there is. Exactly. is so what was he like asking for your hook up or something like he was like it was like he was speaking like he thought you know i was on his level yeah yeah and i was like he had white guy dreads yeah yeah boy boy hmm lz i'm guessing that's Yeah. Boy. Mm. Boy. Mm.

LZ, I'm guessing that's how that's pronounced, wants to know, what is your favorite jelly flavor? Jelly flavor? Yeah. Are you a marmalade girl? You like a strawberry jam? How about an apple butter? You know how I feel about apple butter. I fucking love apple butter. It's one of my great passions in life.

I fucking love apple butter. But is apple butter a jelly? I don't think- It's in the jelly category. Oh my gosh. I'm butter. I fucking love apple butter. It's one of my great passions in life. I fucking love apple butter. But is apple butter a jelly? It's in the jelly category. Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. I have to pause this question right now. Are you going to just divulge the peanut butter situation? Oh, my God.

This is so embarrassing. So, like two episodes ago, I think it was, someone asked a question in the Discord, and they were like, hey, do you refrigerate your peanut butter or do you keep it in the cupboard? And you were like, obviously you keep it in the cupboard. Like what kind of psycho puts it in the fridge? And I was like, well, actually at the Caruso household here, we put it in the fridge. Okay. Norman and I have been together for no shit like 12 years now.

I have been together for no shit like 12 years now. I thought that he wanted the peanut butter in the fridge. And it turns out that he was horrified that you put the peanut butter in the fridge. Turns out, and we found out on the Discord together because people were asking us on the Discord, why do you guys put your peanut butter in the fridge? And I like look i mean it's it's what he wants like i and i don't care enough to be like no i refuse turns out he's the exact same way he thought i wanted it in the in the fridge and didn't care enough to fight me on it so we have been eating this cold hard peanut butter for years. Years. This is the best thing to come out of this podcast.

I agree. I can take the peanut butter out of the fridge. That's right. Nobody needs their peanut butter cold. Ridiculous. Ridiculous. A sticky situation wants to know, do you wear or use your own merch? I always worry that I look stupid.

I fucking have a juvenile Bigfoot sweatshirt. And I wore it the other day. And I wore it proud. And I was hoping somebody would have seen it. And nobody said anything to me. Okay. So I love the juvenile Bigfoot hoodie. Yeah, it's so comfortable.

I wear it a lot. But I do worry that, like, if someone saw it on me. And then we look like a giant tool bag. Yeah. Yeah. Just me. Oh, wearing my own podcast merch. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I wear the sweatshirt because I love the sweatshirt.

But yeah, I do feel like a little bit like if somebody was like, isn't that your own podcast? Yeah, like, oh, wait, Bob Barker's dead. Never mind. Bob Barker's not dead, is he? Bob Barker has to be dead. No! Did Bob Barker die? I mean is he? Bob Barker has to be dead. No! Did Bob Barker die? I mean, how old would he be?

I mean, I was about to say you wouldn't see Bob Barker walking around with like a Price is Right shirt on. Let's see. Hold on. Brandi, there's no way Bob Barker is alive. Bob Barker is alive at 97 years old! No! What? What? What?

Yeah. This is like when we found out Bob Dole was alive. Dole was alive. Which, oh, well. Right. You just killed him. No. You just killed him.

I probably just killed Bob. You killed them both. God. Two Bobs with one stone. Sorry, Bobs. Wing, wing, wing, wing, wing. Brandy, what haircut or style do you recommend for female balding? Okay, so this is a common thing, like thinning hair in women, and it can be like a really self-conscious thing.

And here are my two recommendations. Don't try to maintain too much length. don't try to maintain too much length. Like think like shoulder length is kind of going to be maybe your max because the longer the hair, the heavier it is, the flatter it's going to lay, which just makes thinness at the scalp look more prevalent. Yeah. The other thing is a lot of people with thin hair are afraid to do layers because they think it's going to make it look thinner.

You need a small amount of layering in there to help give it some fullness, give it some body. It's when you try to go crazy with the layers that it makes it look thinner. So a little bit of layers and not too much length. Also spray paint. No. Oh, so you think the question was just for you then. No. Freakshow wants to know, are we keeping the lip ring?

Please say yes. Almost 30-year-old with a lip ring as well. Yes. I did have to take it out. It did close up. I am getting it repierced. By me. No.

As a bonus video. No. For our fine patrons. No. At the $7 level or higher. No. You know, Brandi, your problem is you don't trust. For you to put a hole in my lip, you're absolutely right.

I do not. Well, that's just very hurtful. Ooh. Razzle Dazzle wants to know, did you guys ever perform in a talent show in school? If so, what was your talent? Oh. Oh. I did one time. Okay. Let's hear it, Brandy. I believe I was in talent? Oh. Oh. I did one time.

Okay. Let's hear it, Brandi. I believe I was in the third grade. Okay. This was before I knew you. Yep. This is before you came to Kansas. Uh-huh.

Performed a dance with three other girls. Okay. To a song from The Lion King. I'm gonna be a mighty king. So enemies beware. I'm gonna be a mighty king. So enemies beware. I'm brushing up. I'm looking down. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I messed up the lines. Anyway, it doesn't fucking matter. Anyway, so we all wore black shorts and white T-shirts. And we all slept with braids in our hair the night before so that we'd have like crimped hair. Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm. And this was for the all school talent show. Oh, I remember it was a very big deal. It was a very big deal. Mill Creek Elementary. We did that once around. Yeah. Heidi, Heidi, Heidi Ho.

Mill Creek Mustangs on the go. I still remember some of the performances from the talent show. Do you remember when ****** sang Oh shit, what'd she sing? You gotta be mad, you gotta be bold, you gotta be wiser. She did such a good job!

I was blown away. Somebody played the accordion ****** something. Anyway, I heard we were the best, but. From your mom. Well, my story is remarkably similar. I was also in the third grade and it was the all school talent show. I was in a dance to an Ace of Base song.

Oh! Me and two of my friends, we had bike shorts, which are back in. Leotards. We received quite a bit of applause. And our ending move was, okay, so they were like,

I felt really cool when we did this. Okay, so they stood and they clapped their hands together So they were like, I felt really cool when we did this. Okay. So they stood and they clapped their hands together, kind of like a house. Did you slide between them? Well, it wasn't quite that cool, but I did kneel between them with my arms up in a V. So, you know, it was pretty cool. Pretty cool.

Obviously. Pretty cool. Stop asking about it. Obviously. Pretty cool. Stop asking about it. Oh, my God. I totally misread someone's question. What?

I don't know why I read it this way. My Skunches skis. The question they asked was, what do you do to cheer yourself up on an especially rough day? I read it in my head as, what do you do to clean yourself up on a specially rough day? Baby wipes. Always good. Bed, bath, and beyond bag for Kristen. Well, you know I have a bidet, so.

On a rough day, I just sit on the old fire hose and. Somebody in the Discord did share that they have, Gadriel, yeah, they have a malfunctioning potato. Which is what I believe happens to all potatoes. I mean, yeah, your butthole will take a beating that day. I guess there's no way around that. Oh, Shindishu23 wants to know, lifetime movies or Hallmark movies?

Lifetime movies all the way. Hallmark movies are terrible. Oh, but Brandy. I know, I know. The girl moves back to town because her dad, you know. She has the Christmas tree shop. Yeah. And then the good-looking white guy comes in.

Yeah. And he, yeah. But are they going to fall in love just in time for Christmas? Oh, my gosh. Oh, wait, they did. Oh, no. Yeah, I love Lifetime movies, so. See, I don't watch either.

Okay, I admittedly haven't watched Lifetime movies in several years. Actually, the last one that I watched was like, okay, do you remember the 31st of December? It's September. Oh, whatever. Anyway, Dancing the Night Away. Will Ferrell and Kristen Wiig did a Lifetime movie. They did? Yes, and everybody thought it was going to be like a joke.

It was a legit Lifetime movie. Wow. Yeah. Okay. I lied, though. That's not the last one I've seen. It just occurred to me that just within the past couple of years, Lifetime remade The Bad Seed, which is one of my favorite films. Okay. And so I watched it.

And somebody was the dad. Like, maybe John Stamos. Somebody was the dad. Okay, okay, okay. Hold on, hold on. Now I've got to look it up. Yeah, the people have to know. They do.

But have you seen The Bad Seed? No. The one from the 50s? The black and white one? Yeah. Everyone says, my mother's the prettiest mother. And she's just like this terrible murdering look.

Roblo. Roblo is the dad. Oh, okay. Okay, Roblo. It's quite good. Quite good. Tinfoil Hat wants to know, Brandy, would you do a bonus video of you trying sushi?

I would love that. Because then I just get to eat all the sushi. I know. You would hate sushi. I would hate it. I have tried sushi. Bullshit. I have tried sushi. Bullshit. I have tried it.

Bullshit. I have tried it. Tell us everything. And don't you dare lie. I have tried it. I've had, like... But a deer stopped me in the road. Yeah.

And it was like, my car was swerving out of control and the sushi fell out. No. And so I got an urn. And then I put a deer on it. And a fish on it. Isn't that funny? No, I have tried it. I've tried only cooked things.

When was the last time you had sushi? 2015, probably. Okay. Okay, so David gets— What were the circumstances of the alleged event? So David and his sisters love sushi. So we get sushi. I get something else. Chicken teriyaki.

Yeah, exactly. But David gets these things called magic mushrooms. And there's no mushrooms. It's like. Is that the magic? That is the magic. It is like this, I don't know, delicious little morsel of like crab meat, I think. But it's got avocado and then it's wrapped in seaweed.

But then it's got this delicious eel sauce on top of it. That sounds really good. And so he dissects it for me and gives me just like the crab meat with the eel sauce. So I eat that. Does that count? No! Are you kidding me? Absolutely not.

I am just disgusted by you absolutely not does that count oh my god kate tate wants to know would you rather be dairy free or carb free for the rest of your life oh lord almighty i guess it would have to be dairy-free. Yeah, I'd have to go dairy, but that sounds terrible. Well, I'd be on that show. Accident, murder, suicide. You know, I tried to do vegan. I know you did. And I was shocked.

The thing that got me was the cheese. Yeah. I can't. And I'm not here for And I was shocked. The thing that got me was the cheese. Yeah. I can't. And I'm not here for dairy-free cheese. I just. Oh, my God. No one is. No one is.

Anyone who's like, oh, it tastes the same. You haven't had cheese. You've clearly not had cheese. Yeah, it's been years since you had cheese, darling. I'm sorry to tell you. Did you know about this? What? Clairvoyant says, are you excited for the Netflix Anna Delvey dramatic miniseries?

I did know about it. Are you excited for it? Absolutely. What do you think? What do you think? Obviously. I've been so excited for so long. I didn't know about it.

Brandy. Behind the times, I guess. Are you? Okay, this is not a question from the Discord. It's a question from me to you. Are you watching Alan versus Pharaoh? No, I want to. I haven't seen it, though.

Brandy. You're ready to be disturbed. Well, obviously. It's a wacky comedy. No. No, it is not. It's not. It's.

That guy is. Cancel him. How has he not been canceled already? Because we are sick freaks in this society. The gross thing to me is in this most recent episode, so I'm not super familiar with Woody Allen. I think I just was born in the wrong time because I'm so youthful and fun, you know, with my middle part and my big jeans. That's right. Dewy skin, just really tight, dewy skin.

Oh, man. We're so young. Did I tell you about the time I drove through Westport? Like this was many months ago. And, you know, sometimes I think I'm young, but then I saw like the skin of 20-year-olds. I sound like a serial killer right now. I, the skin of 20-year-olds. I sound like a serial killer right now. I saw the skin of 20-year-olds, and I was just like, oh, man. Remember that?

That's youth right there. That's it. That plump, dewy skin. Anyway, my point is Woody Allen. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, Woody Allen. So they talk about, like, some of the plots of some of his movies, and it's like, oh, teenage girl falls in love with dumpy 40-year-old, and she is sexually aggressive to him. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No. Nope. Nope. We're done. Goodbye. Nope.

Ooh. DeVry Law School asks, would you rather be hot or cold? Oh, I'm already hot. Sorry. That was so stupid. Okay. I have a lot of experience being cold because it's part of my thyroid disease. I have trouble regulating my own temperature.

I will get, like, extremely cold to the point that, like, the only thing that will warm me up is to get in the shower. I still think that is better than being hot because you can always put more stuff on. And there's only so much you can take off. My air conditioner went out in my house probably five years ago, maybe six years ago now. And you had to eat sushi. In the middle of July. And I was a fucking nightmare to deal with. I will just tell you that right now.

I can picture it. And it was Fourth of July weekend. And so it was like, oh, sorry. No one wants to come up to your house right now. No one will be working on your air conditioner until next week. Yeah. And you were like, well, I'm about to die. Yeah.

I love when people ask these questions because I get to feel like cool and hip with my music recommendations. Oh my God. Oh hell no. Would like to know what is your most recent song or artist discovery?

Oh just you wait till I fucking tell you about this amazing song. Hold on now I gotta find it. It's We Are Never Getting Back Together by Taylor Swift. My new favorite song because I believe find it. It's We Are Never Getting Back Together by Taylor Swift.

My new favorite song, because I believe that it was written about me, is Deep End by Fauci. Let me give you a sampling of the lyrics. Okay. Kristen. Shoddy gon' get that paper. Shoddy got, no, sorry. Shoddy tongue rip like that paper shoddy got no sorry shoddy tongue rip like razor

shoddy got whip got flavor pardon my tits and makeup obviously this song's about me pardon my tits and makeup that's right I do like that pardon my tits and makeup pardon my tits and makeup it's's right. I do like that. Yeah. Harden my tits and makeup. Harden my tits and makeup. It's an amazing line.

Alright. The song is amazing. Okay. Listen to it. Deep End by Foushee. Okay. Oh, it's spelled weird though. F-O-U-S-H-E-E I listen to it way too often. Oh, my gosh.

Flossing with Grandma wants to know, did you guys have any tornado stories? Okay. Okay. Yesterday? Yeah. I felt like a fool. A fool? I felt like a fucking fool. Did you get the warning?

It was not. Well, yeah. So, okay. Okay. Tell the people. Okay. So, yesterday, because I had a similar. Yeah.

Kansas and Missouri both did this. Yeah. Yes. And I just get an emergency alert on my fucking phone. I screenshot it. So, here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Let me reference it for you. Emergency alert. National Weather Service. Tornado warning! In this area until 10.15 a.m. Take shelter now in a basement or an interior room on the lowest floor of a sturdy building. If you are outdoors in a mobile home or in a vehicle, move to the closest substantial shelter and protect yourself from flying debris.

Check media. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yep. Okay. So this comes through. Yep. It's a fucking beautiful day outside.

It was very confusing. Yeah. Uh-huh. And then the sirens start going off. Yep. Mm-hmm. Turns out there was a coordinated test of the emergency alert system, but somebody fucking forgot to put test.

Yeah. This is a test. Yeah. So where were you when you got it? I was at home. Okay. I was. I was at home.

And I text my mom and Casey and I was like, so immediately I got on Facebook, which is just how I live my life. And everybody was like, I saw the news alerts about the coordinated test. And so I text my mom and Casey and I was like, would have been cool if they would have said test. Yes. On that emergency alert. My sister. So Casey and my mom did not get the emergency alert that I got.

Oh. What did they get? My mom got a test, got a text from the, from like Johnson County's emergency alert thing. And it said, this is a test. Yeah. Casey didn't get any alert. Oh, well, okay. That's not great.

It's not great. Yeah. So for me. Yeah. And let me start by saying, I have a friend who lives, well, I have a couple of friends who live on the East Coast. And in our last big phone call together, they were talking about how like they'd had a tornado warning.

And it was really, really scary because they had no idea what to do. And she was like, how do you guys deal with this in the Midwest? It was terrifying. And I was like, well, okay, it is scary. Yeah. But the nice thing about being in the Midwest where we do have a lot of tornadoes is there are tons of tornado drills. The nice thing about being in the Midwest where we do have a lot of tornadoes is there are tons of tornado drills. And so if you've lived in the Midwest for any stretch of time, you know, OK, they test the sirens once a month.

And you you kind of always know where you would go in your house. You know what you would do in the event of a tornado. Yeah. OK. So yesterday I get that alert and I'm like, all right. So I go downstairs. I grab Dottie and I'm like, all right. So I go downstairs. I grab Dottie. Oh, well, for anyone, this story is off the rails. Norman and I got a new puppy a couple weeks ago. Dottie, sweet Dottie. I talked about it a little bit on the bonus episode, but bottom line, I can't live without a dog.

You guys are dog people. Yeah. I couldn't do it. Yeah. And so I prayed to St. Peanut to help me find the next one. She's a sweetie. Oh, she's so cute. So I went downstairs, grabbed Dottie, went to Norman, was like, hey, grab the cats.

Did you get the alert? And he was like, yeah, but let's check it out. And I was like, yeah, but, like, let's check it out. And I was like, no. Because Norman, being from North Carolina, he has a history of not taking these seriously enough. And, like, the last time we had one, like an actual tornado thing, I had to be like, Norman, go to the basement with me. Like, we have to go. So anyway, I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Grab the cats.

I've got the dog. Let's go to the basement and then look it up. So I make this big moral stance of, then we get down there and it's a fucking test. Felt like an idiot. So next time, so I'll die in a tornado next time because I was temporarily embarrassed. No, then they put out like a big news story last night

about like, sorry that that. Whoopsies. Yeah. Whoops. Whoops. Fudge stripes. I was like, yeah, who's going to clean the fudge stripes out of my pants? I guess that's up to me.

Hmm. Lord almighty. Oh, goodness. I was genuinely glad I wasn't the... But I can't imagine having... Yeah. If I were driving, you know, that would be... Mm-hmm.

Anyway. Yeah. But no, my great-grandparents' home was smashed by a tornado, and my great-grandma narrowly survived. The piano pushed her against the wall. She hid under the piano. Yeah, and then her house was picked up. They wrote a story about her. Did a movie about her.

Did a movie. Maybe. What are you trying to say about my great-grandma's personality? No, she's Dorothy. She's not the witch. Oh, I thought she was the witch. No! I mean, you met my great grandma's personality? No, she's Dorothy. She's not the witch. Oh, I thought she was the witch. No! I mean, you met my great grandma. Ooh.

Yes. All murderers love candles. Would like to know, Kristen, we know your opinion on 90 Day Fiance and Married at First Sight. But what about Love is Blind? Love is Blind. That was the Netflix one.

Did you watch it? I don't think I watched that. Okay. Everybody, so this came out, I don't know, a year and a half ago maybe. Everybody at the salon talking about it, talking about it, talking about it. Ooh, you got to see Love is Blind. Oh, wait. Oh, wait. Oh, wait.

I did see like the first half of the first episode. So I turned. So I'm like, oh, right. OK. So the whole deal is like they have like they communicate completely without seeing each other and then they have to pick whatever. Anyway, I got through like 10 minutes of one episode. I was like, fuck this.

Absolutely not. Yeah, I agree. I didn't. And it kept getting recommended. Everyone was like, fuck this. Absolutely not. Yeah, I agree. I I didn't. And it kept getting recommended. Everyone was talking. I did not get it. They were losing their minds over it. Yeah.

No. Hard pass. No. I think the hot, dumb people should see each other. You know, that's my philosophy on reality shows. Gopher Bweb says, I don't know if anyone has talked about this, but flares are totally coming back. They're all over TikTok.

That can't be true. Is that for real? Be still my heart. I loved flares back in the day. Oh, okay. What kind of pants are okay? You don't like. I told you.

I told you. I want to wear a boyfriend. I want to wear a boyfriend jean. You can wear a boyfriend jean. All right. Why boyfriend jean? Okay, because I feel like it's a good middle ground. It's not a skinny jean. All right. Why boyfriend jean? Okay, because I feel like it's a good middle ground.

It's not a skinny jean. It's got like a straight leg, you know, with a cuffed bottom. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Also, though, fitted through

the hip area and I'm not going to have a long mom ass. I feel like that's going to be my best bet moving forward. If I have to get rid of the skinny jean, it's going to have a long mom ass. I feel like that's going to be my best bet moving forward. If I have to get rid of the skinny jean, it's going to have to be the boyfriend jean. Okay. But still terrified of the long mom ass. I'm not, yeah.

I can't do it. I won't do it. You'd be amazed at what you can push yourself to do. I don't want it. I don't want it. Don't want it. Fine, fine. All right, should we take some questions, or I'm sorry, should we do some Supreme Court inductions?

Yes, we should. All right. This week we are continuing to read your favorite cookies. Cookies. Cookie crisp. Sorry. I really have to to pee i'm starting to get loopy oh goodness sarah jolly wit frosted sugar cookie chakina williams chocolate caramel lace gaia my mom's chocolate ovis mollies i what the hell sounds like a drug gaia what are you sneaking drugs in here? Your mom is.

Sorry, that sounded like an insult. Anyway, no disrespect to your mother. Lauren. Snickerdoodles. Brittany. Tagalong Girl Scout cookies. Bridget Kane. Chocolate chip.

Casey. Golden Oreos. Toops. Peanut butter chocolate chip. Felicia. Cake batter Oreo cookies by Sally's Addiction. What is that? I don't know, I'm only familiar with Jane's Addiction

Because I'm so hardcore Yeah, you're really hardcore, Christian Yeah Lauren Pumpkin chocolate chip That doesn't go together, does it? I agree, I know, that's a lot of people's favorites I don't think that goes together

Okay, okay Jennifer Adams Oatmeal raisin. Riley Davis. No bake cookies. Love no bake cookies. Kate Holcomb. Chocolate chip walnut. Meg Ward. Molasses. LJ. Oatmeal raisin. Hannah Downey. Oatmeal raisin. Debbie Heath. Oatmeal scotchies. Sorry, it seemed like we were building to something. We were, we really were. Emily Brown.

Snickerdoodles. She said it's pronounced Emily is super cool. Aubrey Wolfe. Chocolate chocolate chip. Amanda Ince. Anything my mom bakes. Robin Arsenal. Shortbread cookies.

Sarah Bogdan. Chocolate Chip. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Woof, woof, woof, woof! Somebody said we used to do, I totally forgot we used to do the siren noise at the end. Woof, woof, woof, woof! Yeah. Somebody requested that we bring it back.

Well, all right, it's back. It's back. Thank you guys for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review.

And then be sure to join us next week. Did someone have you on fast forward? No, did I say that really fast? It was very fast. Oh. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! Thank you, because I have to pee, so we really got to wrap this up.

I don't want to pee right in this chair. I don't have a Bed, Bath & Beyond bag anywhere. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes wikipedia so we owe a huge thank you to the real experts i got my info from the documentary real crime supermarket heist plus reporting from the bbc and the guardian i got my info from an episode of 48 hours an episode of accident, murder, or suicide. And articles for PennLive and Meow.com.

What? For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com. And the PYP. Any errors are of course ours. Please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. Meow.