Let's Go To Court! - 165: A Missing Bullet & the Black Widow of Las Vegas

Episode Date: March 17, 2021

Tim Noble called 911, desperate for help. He’d just walked into the home he shared with his fiance, Debra Holden, and found her dead on the couch. A gun lay next to her. It appeared she’d died by suicide, and that’s exactly what the medical examiner ruled. Investigators couldn’t find the bullet, though. That seemed a little odd. The blood trail also seemed odd. It was as if she’d been moved after she died. Then Tim showed up at the hospital with a bullet in his leg and an incredibly strange story as to how it got there. Then Kristin tells us about Margaret Rudin, the so-called black widow of Las Vegas. When Margaret and Ron Rudin got married, it was the fifth marriage for both of them. What had been a whirlwind courtship got rocky as soon as they moved in together. Margaret discovered that Ron was having an affair. She also discovered that he’d never renovated the home after his ex-wife died by suicide. Over the years, Margaret says their marriage improved. But when Ron was brutally murdered, Margaret was the prime suspect.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Five Weddings and a Murder,” episode of 20/20 “Rudin’s Revenge,” episode of Mugshots “Last Vegas attorney Amador arrested on felony assault charges,” by Mike Blasylas for the Vegas Review-Journal “Socialite seeks a mistrial,” by Ken Ritter for the Associated Press In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Missing Bullet” episode Accident Murder or Suicide “Man Passes Out, Urinates Himself After Being Questioned About Fiancée's Murder” by Aly Vader Hayden, oxygen.com “Murder trial: Opening statements paint two pictures of a woman’s death” by Amanda Thames, Jacksonville Daily News “Defendant takes stand in murder trial” by Mike McHugh, Jacksonville Daily News “Onslow Co. man sentenced to life in prison for killing fiancee” by Elizabeth New, WNCT9 News YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the black widow of Las Vegas. Ooh, and I'll be talking about a missing bullet.

Hmm. It's missing. Okay, pause everything, please. Okay. I know the answer is going to be no, but did you watch the interview with Meghan Markle? No. No, I've read a whole bunch of stuff. I want to watch the interview, though.

I cried. You did? Yeah. I bet I would cry like a baby. And then I wanted to talk to Norm about it, and he's like, yeah, I'm just not interested in the royals. And so it's like, well, and so then now you're here and you have not done your homework. I did watch

two things this week. Did you watch Piers Morgan stomping on his back? Oh, I did actually watch that. What a fucking tool bag. The man is a fucking baby. Yeah. Do you know the story? Yeah. He like wanted to date Meghan Markle. Which who doesn't? Exactly. And she blew the story? Yeah. He like wanted to date Meghan Markle and she like

who doesn't? And she blew him off. And she's like you're Piers Morgan no thanks. Bad mouthed her for five years now. Get the fuck over it

you man baby. Yes. Just be happy she grabbed a drink with you one time. Oh my gosh. Yeah he quit today. Like he

walked off set of Good Morning Britain or whatever the show is called. That's it. And then he officially like was of Good Morning Britain or whatever the show is called. Yeah, that's it. And then he officially was like, I'm fucking done

with this show. Okay, bye. Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you. Pierce. Pierce. Pierce.

That is your real name. He also, in that argument he got into, he said he didn't have a racist bone in his body, which I think anyone who says that is stupid. Hey, hear me out here.

I'm not racist. See, when he said that, this is how I know I'm terrible. All I could think was, I wish some nasty hillbilly had popped up and said, do you want one? Anyway, I think Meghan Markle's amazing. I do, too. Hats off to Harry.

Yeah. And I do feel sad that he and his brother don't have a relationship right now. Because I think siblings are really important. Yeah. But toxic relationships happen in all different forms. And sometimes that's your family. So. Yeah.

And you got to put up a boundary. Absolutely. And be like, don't worry about the color of my child. Yeah. No kidding. You fucking weirdos. Yeah. Yep.

Yep. Anyway. Well, that was important for the top of the show it's not what I watched this week what'd you watch this week I watched two documentaries

this week okay what to be you know full disclosure here I have 30 minutes left of the last episode

of one of them oh so you're a liar you didn't watch Murder on Middle Beach I'm almost done with oh my god you are so late to the parade

it's so good I'm even later to the other one. Okay, what? I'll Be Gone in the Dark. Well, welcome to the show. I read the book. Well, so did I. And then I instantly watched the show.

I just watched the show this week. It was very good. Yeah. And now I'm concerned constantly that there's a man in my home, like in the dark corner of my bedroom. That's a natural fear. Use that to help you go to sleep faster the way I do. That's the weirdest thing you've ever told me you do. Really? I do. It has helped me fall asleep since like legit late elementary school. OK, they're coming to get me. I lay real still. They can't see me.

And boom, sleepy times. I used to do a thing because I was really scared of vampires when I was a kid where I would have to. So I'd be laying there and I'm like, what if a fucking vampire gets in my bedroom? Right. And so we've all thought about that. And so I would then put the blanket all the way up to my chin because vampires can't lift sheets. Exactly. So then they wouldn't see my neck if they came in my room.

And they'd be like, oh, no necks here. Just a bloodless head just floating. That's right. Better head down to her sister's room. Is that what you were thinking? Exactly what I was thinking. Speaking of sad sibling relationships. No, get it.

Sicken the vampires on my sister. No, get it. Sicken the vampires on my sister. Well, you know, this delightful banter, you know, if you want more of it, and of course you do, it's available on Patreon. That's right. You should check us out on Patreon. That's right. This thing you're enjoying for free.

Hey, you can pay for more. You can pay for it. Hot financial tips. We've got three levels. We have the $5 level where you get a bonus episode every month. Monthly? Every month? There's 20 of them.

Once a month? There are 20 bonus episodes over there. 20 meaty boy episodes. These things are like average out to be like two plus hours each. Yeah. They're like a regular episode. It's a lot of bonus content. You also get access to the Discord, which is like a 90s style chat room where everybody is just chit-chatting the day away. Then we have the $7 level.

That is the Supreme. Thank you. Thank you for getting the point, Kristen. I honestly almost said Bob Moss level, which is wrong. Nope. It's okay. It's okay. I'm part of this podcast, too.

It is the Supreme Court level. At that level, you get all that cool stuff from the $5 level. Oh, the meaty boy. Oh, the discourse. You get a bonus video every month where we do something silly. And then you get a card with our autographs on it and a sticker inside. My God, the sticker. Plus, you get inducted at the end of an episode.

If that's not enough for you. And it's probably not. We've got one more level. It is the Bob Moss level. That'll run you 10 bucks. But you get all that stuff we already told you about. Plus, you get episodes ad-free and you get them a day early. And?

Oh, what's that? There's more? There's more? You get 10% off merch. Also, complimentary rotisserie chicken. No, we don't have that. Oh, what's that? There's more? There's more? You get 10% off merch. Also, complimentary rotisserie chicken. No, we don't have that. Oh, never mind. Fresh out of chickens. That was a limited time deal.

It was a mess sending those in the mail. By the time they got to people, the chickens weren't too good. No, they were inedible. Oh, so you've got a case about a missing bullet. I've got a case about a missing bullet, which I'm going to tell you right now. Is it about a missing magic bullet? No. Sorry.

You know, I thought of that, and I thought, that is so stupid. But I'm going to say it anyway. I couldn't stop. Can I thought, that is so stupid. But I'm going to say it anyway. I couldn't stop. Can't stop, won't stop. This case is from my new favorite show. Oh, God. Is it some stupid ID show? No, it's from Oxygen.

Same show I watched last week. Oh, is it Accident, Murder, or Suicide? All right. It's a real niche show that I think I'm probably the only one watching. Okay, fair enough. So most of the information for this case comes from that episode. All right. It's Halloween night, 2014.

Okay. We're in Jacksonville, North Carolina. Oh, okay. Are you familiar? Yeah, hang on. I've got a bit more information to tell you about Jacksonville. I am not listening to shit. Hang on.

Jacksonville has a population of just over 70,000, which makes it the 14th largest city in North Carolina. And it is located, this is a fun fact pretty much just for me and only me, about 45 minutes southwest of New Bern. That's not just for you. And I'm a big fan of New Bern. You know I used to live in New Bern. That's not just for you. And I'm a big fan of New Bern. You know I used to live in New Bern. I know!

So why is that a fun fact for only you? I'm special too, damn it. The New Bern McDonald's sold me an iced tea that made me shit myself. Was it the New Bern McDonald's? Yes, yes. That's the McDonald's. I'm sure there's more than one,

but yeah, it was in New Bern. All right. Well, that was the closest reference point I could find to something that I knew. Okay. Very good. Very good. It was just before 7 p.m. when a call came in to 911.

The caller was Tim Noble, and he told the dispatcher that he had just come home to find his fiance, 58-year-old Deborah Holden, dead on their living room couch. 58 year old Deborah Holden dead on their living room couch it looks like my girlfriend has shot herself Tim told the dispatcher and he confirmed that Deborah wasn't breathing that's weird

is it? I've got my spidey senses up because you've already told me the name of the show I would think the thing you would tell the dispatcher is my girlfriend's been shot yeah I agree I agree I would think the thing you would tell the dispatcher is my girlfriend's been shot. Uh huh. Yeah, I agree.

I agree. He later says that he doesn't remember saying this to the dispatcher at all. Maybe. I mean, the gun's right there. So you probably do. Yeah, the gun was laying right there on the floor in the living room next to Deborah's body. As it would be for a suicide question mark. Question mark.

Okay. So when police arrived on the scene, they determined that Deborah had suffered a single gunshot wound to the head. As I said one second ago, a.38 caliber revolver lay on the floor next to her. It was clear that she had been dead for some time already, as rigor mortis had already set in. Investigators placed her time of death somewhere between 11 and 12 that day. As the scene was being processed, Detective Ben Foy with the Onslow County Sheriff's Department pulled Tim aside and asked him about Deborah's history. Had there been any warning signs? Was she struggling with

depression? Had she mentioned suicide before? Tim told Detective Foy that no, he hadn't seen any signs. And the fact that she would take her own life came as a complete shock. He and Deborah had been together for more than 10 years and had been engaged for the last four. Due to a major car accident years earlier, though, Debra suffered from chronic pain. Because of this, she took several medications and was mostly homebound. Tim told the detective that he didn't believe that Debbie was depressed, though. Everything had seemed normal that day. She was still in bed when he'd left for his job as Everything had seemed normal that day. She was still in bed

when he'd left for his job as a plumber early that morning, but he'd called and talked to her around 10 a.m. and everything seemed fine. She was excited to hand out candy to trick-or-treaters that night and had even put the candy in a bowl by the front door. Tim told the detectives that he had been in Swansboro all day for work, which is about 20 minutes away, and he had just come home to find Deborah dead. Detective Foy continued to press Tim for details about his relationship, and he was fairly open with his answers. Tim told the detective that the couple had been together for a long time and that he loved Debra very much and that he was happy to take care of her. But their relationship wasn't perfect. Tim had been unfaithful to Debbie.

And about a month ago, she had found out. She had confronted him about the affair and he had ended it. So Tim's over here talking to the detective. In the meantime, a couple of Deborah's brothers showed up to the house. There was apparently some kind of confusion about how the information about what had happened to Deborah had been passed along. And they thought there'd been like some kind of accident and Deborah was hurt inside the home. And so they were like, there became this big altercation like rushing to come. Exactly. And the police were like, you can't go in.

And the brothers, they were just like the very protective type. They'd always been that way. And so they were like, let us in. Let us see our sister. And they obviously was this was a closed scene. They couldn't go in. And so one of the brothers like grabbed the police officer like shirt and, like, slammed him up against the door. Oh, shit. Yeah.

And he's like, let me in. Let me see my sister. And so Tim, who's standing over here talking to this detective, heard the commotion and rushed over to explain the situation and be the one to tell them, you know, Deborah's no longer alive. And tell them what was going on. And it was as Tim was making his way across the yard that Deborah's sister-in-law noticed he was limping. But at the time, she didn't really think anything of it.

Maybe he'd stepped in like a, you know, a thing in the yard and kind of rolled his ankle, whatever. So anyway, Tim comes over and explains to Deborah's brothers that she was gone and that it looked as if she had died by suicide. Her siblings knew about her struggles with chronic pain, but they immediately contested the idea that she would take her own life. Despite her struggles, they said Deborah was always happy. She was always in a good mood.

Her nieces and nephews were her life. And she was religiously opposed to suicide. She believed that if she took her own life, she would not go to heaven. So they're kind of having this conversation. What do you got, Kristen? I don't know. I think. Okay.

To me, when I hear somebody being weirdly judgmental about a thing. Yeah. Just in general to me, that means they've at least considered it for themselves. Uh-huh. Honestly. Oh, yeah. Honestly. Yeah.

That's a good point, yeah. And I know some religions teach that, you know, you don't go to heaven if you commit suicide. I think that's crazy bullshit. Yeah, I agree. But yeah, that strikes me as odd to even have that judgment. Also, this idea that she was always happy. I understand if you think, no, she didn't commit suicide, but like this idea, no, she was always happy. I understand if you think, no, she didn't commit suicide,

but like this idea, no, she was always happy. Bullshit. I agree. And the fact that she has had this years long thing with this chronic pain and she's always going to doctors

and she's basically homebound, like that doesn't sound like someone to me who is always happy. Right. Like, yeah, maybe she's made the most of her situation. Yeah. Or maybe she puts on a good face.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not vaping, by the way. That's the sound of my water bottle. That's your water bottle. So at some point... I've never been more offended than when someone thought I was a vaper.

What am I, 27? Come on. So at some point, they voice all of these concerns to the detectives. And they're like, we don't believe she took her own life. Please, please look into this. Yeah. At this point, Detective Foy thought the investigation was fairly straightforward. But there were a couple of little inconsistencies that were kind of nagging at him.

forward, but there were a couple of little inconsistencies that were kind of nagging at him. First, there was like a blood trail on Deborah's face that seemed like it split into two different directions. This kind of looked to him like maybe her head had been moved after she'd been shot, but before the blood started to dry. Hmm. That's weird. started to dry.

Hmm. That's weird. Second, when they moved Deborah's body, there was a clear exit wound from the gunshot, but they couldn't find the bullet. Hmm. Oh, man. There was no hole in the couch cushion and pillow that were underneath her head. It wasn't, like, lodged in there somewhere. Where was the bullet?

And third, Detective Foy caught Tim Noble in a lie, like, right off the bat. Despite just finding his fiancée dead in their home, the detective described Tim's demeanor as extremely calm. So the detective talks about this on this episode a little bit. And he's like, OK, I've seen a lot of people on what could be considered the worst day of their life. Yeah. And people react all kinds of different ways. Sometimes they're very calm. Sometimes they're hysterical.

So just Tim's behavior alone was not enough to make him question Tim. However, at one point when Detective Foy was questioning Tim about his activities that day, he asked him if he could see his cell phone to confirm that he had made that call at 10 o'clock and just, you know, let's make sure everything's just kind of matching up with what you're saying. And Tim was like, okay, yeah, no problem. Here's my phone. But just so you know, I actually erased my call log for the day.

You know, just like a totally normal thing that like any totally innocent, not suspicious person does in the middle of the day, you know, on the regular. That is the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Uh-huh. Have you ever erased your call log? No. No. No. Never.

Never. Never. That's bizarre. Yeah. And so the detective is like, like, that's super fucking weird. Mm-hmm. And he looks at Tim's phone and was like, yeah, pretty much everything had been wiped, with the exception of a few flirty text messages. Wait, he didn't bother to delete those?

I guess not. And so the detective is like, what's with these texts? And Tim's like, oh, yeah. So that affair that I told you about earlier, I never actually ended it. And when the detective asked him why he lied to him about it, he said they didn't really have a reason other than that he didn't want Deborah's family to know about it because he'd always been really close with them and they'd be like super mad. Yeah.

By this point, Detective Foy was like, okay, this stuff doesn't look great. Yeah. But it also doesn't necessarily add up to foul play. So he waited for Deborah's autopsy results to come back. And when they did, the medical examiner had listed the cause of death as a gunshot wound and the manner of death as suicide. And that would have been that. Except case closed.

Tragic, terrible story. Except that wasn't that. Because a few days later, Tim Noble walked into the emergency room at Moorhead City Hospital. Giggity. Stop! Oh, Brandy, this is a classy podcast. So he walks into the emergency room seeking treatment for a bullet in his left thigh. Are you kidding me? Mm-hmm. Okay, they need to remove the question mark

from this show because clearly this one has an answer. So medical staff. Oh, they could do a period and the period could be a bullet. Yeah. Get it? Cute. Cute. Very cute. So anyway, he was getting more head than he deserved because he was a murderer. That's right. So the medical staff called the police.

Murderers deserve no head. Yeah. Less head. No head. Brandy, not less head. Whose side are you on? So the medical staff calls the police and when an officer shows up to speak to Tim about not less head whose side are you on so medical staff

calls the police and when an officer shows up to speak to Tim about his gunshot wound in his leg he had a whole story for them

are you ready I was cleaning my gun no oopsies it went off no I was deer hunting may I

no okay alright fine fine seems like I'm not gonna get the winner winner chicken dinner here. He was like, oh, man. Crazy story.

I was at a bonfire and like someone threw a paint can into the fire and it exploded and a piece of the shrapnel went into my leg. And the police were like, I don't know, man. That looks like a gunshot wound. And the x-rays they took of the projectile in your leg looks an awful lot like a bullet. They're going to get it out of there. They're going to see it's a bullet.

And who would throw a paint can into a bonfire? It gets so much better. So Tim's like, oh man, you know what? Now that you say that, someone at the bonfire did throw a box of ammo into the fire. So you know what? I bet it is a bullet in my leg.

Is that not nuts? And the police were like, that is nuts. Cocoa nuts. That is nuts. Cocoa nuts. So his story is that someone at the exact same time, two people threw ammo in a paint can into a bonfire. Yeah. And then Kablooie.

Yeah. And he happened to be the unlucky guy who gets the bullet in his leg. That's right. And so he's like, isn't that nuts? And they're like, that is nuts. And Tim's like, right. And the police are like, right. So he's like, isn't that nuts?

And they're like, that is nuts. And Tim's like, right? And the police are like, right. And then the police were like, say. You're not a very smart fellow, are you? Timmy boy, good sir. Can you please give us the names of a couple of other people that were there at this bonfire with you? I'd love to shake the hand of the man who threw the paint can into the bonfire. And Tim was like, oh, no.

Total bummer, guys. What happened? I don't know any of their names. Weird. He stumbled upon a party in the woods. Or where it was. Okay, sure. Or any other details.

And I'd like you to stop asking me questions now, please. Thank you very much. I often attend parties that I cannot describe in any way. This is all a totally normal thing. So the police were like, cool, cool, cool. Obviously suspicious as fuck. But it's not like this random responding officer knew that Tim's fiance had just died of a gunshot wound like a couple of days earlier. And so the officer leaves the room to go talk to the medical staff and be like, how do we

want to move forward with this? What should we do? And while he's out of the room, Tim gets dressed and pieces the fuck out of the hospital. That is the smartest thing Tim has done in days. Right. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah.

Don't stick around. Now he needs to like go by a new name, Timmy, in days. Right. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah, don't stick around. Now he needs to, like, go buy a new name, Timmy, probably, because he's an idiot. And then he'll move to, like, New Bern, and he'll get a job. At McDonald's. Make an iced tea at a McDonald's. And he'll do a terrible job of it. That's exactly right. So word of this gets back to Detective Foy, and he was like, I fucking knew it.

Yep. I knew something was off, so he ordered a second, more thorough autopsy of Deborah Holden, which is very concerning to me. Why wasn't the first one thorough? I have questions. Hey, I know you phoned it in on the first one. How about you try this time? How about you really try?

So it turns out that this was kind of, like, super awkward because they'd already released her body to her family. Oh, so then they'd be like, could we have that back? Yeah, who was like planning the funeral for like the next day. And then the police had to call and be like, oopsies, fudge stripes. Can we have the body back, please? So then they do a second autopsy. You know, you really, when you say oopsies, fudge stripes, it needs to be with a little more joy than just oopsies, fudge, stripes. So the second autopsy.

Oops, all berries. This time they're very focused on the entry wound. And what the medical examiner discovered this time was that the gun had been pressed against Deborah's head with a great deal of force. And that the gun was likely being held upside down when it was fired. Which meant that Deborah couldn't have been doing it. A little odd for a suicide. And they also tested Deborah's hand for gunshot residue and found none. Well, there you go.

With this new information, the medical examiner changed Debra Holden's manner of death from suicide to homicide. So Detective Foy brought Tim Noble in for more questioning. So Detective Foy brought Tim Noble in for more questioning. And when he asked him about the gunshot wound to his leg, Tim told the whole bonfire story again. Well, when you come up with a story that good, you got to dust it off and repeat it. And so the detective's just like looking at him and he's like, come on, man. Like, you have a gunshot wound to your leg.

Mm-hmm. Give me something. Tell me who was at this bonfire with you. And again, he's like, you know, weirdest thing. I don't know anybody that was there. Mm-hmm. So Detective Foy kind of moves the questioning along and he's like, okay, tell me about the affair. You admitted that it's been going on for a while.

You told me you'd ended it and then you admitted that that was a lie. And so Tim was like, you're right. It was a lie. I never ended it. But it has always just been about sex. Due to the nature of Deborah's injuries from that car accident years earlier, they hadn't been intimate in years. And Tim insisted to Detective Foy that he loved her very much,

but that he had needs, and so he had sought out an ex-girlfriend of his and met with her often for sex. And that was it. So they're, like, talking about this affair and whatever. I love your face when you say he had needs. Needs. It looks like you're choking back vomit. Yeah, I hate it. I hate it.

You hate that he had needs? I hate that he's like, well, you know, I loved her very much, but you know, a man has needs, so I had to get sex somewhere. I'm sure he said it much more lovingly than that. I don't think he did. So they're talking about this affair, and then all of a sudden, Tim Noble is sitting there in this interrogation room. He gets very pale. He gets sweaty.

Okay. He asks them to get him a doctor. Okay. And then he passes out and urinates all over himself. Brandy, this seems rude to include. What had happened to him? So they're like, what the fuck is going on? So like the officers like jump up and one of them is like feeling for a pulse.

They're like, did this guy just die right here? Right. And so he's like, I've got a pulse is like feeling for a pulse they're like did this guy just die right here right and so he's like i've got a pulse i've got a pulse and then all of a sudden so like okay this is my reenactment literally like tim noble sitting like this uh-huh and there's an officer sitting right next to him checking for a pulse and then tim's like what's going on? Like, just like sits up totally normal. And they're like, Tim, are you okay? And he's like, yeah,

yeah, I'm fine. Woo. I'm good. Did he, wait, did he really pass out? Yes, he really passed out

and pissed all over himself. And so they're like, do we need to get you medical attention? He's like, no, no, I'm totally fine. Totally fine. Let's keep going. No, you're drenched in piss. So he keeps. No.

He continues the interview for like another two hours. Who sat in that? In his pee pants. Who sat in that pee pants room with him and talked to him? This guy's not well. I would agree. He probably pissed all over his gunshot wound. I'm sure that he did.

I'm sure that he did. So Detective Foy continues to question him, but it's pretty clear by this point that they don't have enough yet to keep him. So after a couple of hours, he was free to go. They talked to him in his pee pants and they didn't get anything? No. Can we get that on a t-shirt? Yeah. I interrogated a guy for three hours in his pee pants and all I got was this. This lousy t-shirt.

I just can't believe that he was like sitting there in his pee-soaked pants. And they were like, can we get you anything? And he's like, no, no, I'm cool. Let's keep going. Let's move it along. See, but I disagree. I think to me that sounds like a gruff country boy who's embarrassed that he just pissed his pants. And so he's like, let's pretend this didn't happen.

I think you're probably right. Yes, that's what happened and it's on them to be like no sir, sir you pissed your pants let's go down to the local Walmart get you a new pair of sweatpants get you some joggers like let's fix this up.

I'm not going to continue to sit here in this tiny stuffy interrogation room in your pea-soaked pants? Like, we got to do something about that chair. I mean, hopefully it can be hosed off, but you don't know. It could be a fabric bottom. It probably is. Don't you imagine? It's like one of those.

Okay, this is what I'm picturing. Yeah. I'm picturing like a very generic office style chair that's got like the little upholstered pad like right in the butt and then like the metal legs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's. That's just soaking that pee right up. I think that chair is a goner.

But you know that they didn't get rid of it. You're right. If they kept him in there and talked to him, they did not get rid of that chair. They Febrezed it maybe. You're right. You're right. I know. So Tim Noble at this point is free to go.

But Detective Foy went to work building a case against him. First, he worked to track Tim's whereabouts on the day that Deborah was murdered. So he had said that he was in Swansboro for work all day, had left like at 5 o'clock in the morning and hadn't come home until like, he called 911 at like 6.48 p.m. Okay. And so they're like, all right, let's see. There was a convenience store right down the street from them.

How convenient. It was. It was very convenient. That had. Am I ahead of my time? I'm not sure that's how I'd describe it. A genius? So it has really good surveillance cameras, as most convenient stores do. It's convenient.

It's very convenient. And so they watch it. They see and leave for work early in the morning, just like you said. You know, some poor guy's probably job is just to watch the whole thing that whole day. Don't talk about some poor guy. Some poor guy sat with him in his pee pants. If this man's in a clean room looking at surveillance footage, that's fine. You're right.

You're right. And about 11 o'clock that day. What happened Brandy? They saw Tim return home. Weird. Mm-hmm. And then a short time later he left again. Mm-hmm.

So they're like oh that's cool. That's definitely not what he told us. And weird that's also right at the time of Deborah's death. So then they brought in the woman with whom Tim had been having the affair. And they were shocked to learn that she was also engaged to Tim. Oh, shit. And they actually had a wedding planned.

And they actually had a wedding planned. They'd like rented a venue in Pigeon Forge and invited their families. The wedding had been planned for October 25th, 2014. Only they'd had to postpone it because Tim hadn't yet ended his relationship with Deborah Holden. So this woman that he was having the affair with was aware that Tim was in a relationship with Deborah, that they were living together. But she. What? So she's like, oh, yeah, that's my fiance.

He just lives with another woman. And this is fine. She believed that he just couldn't bring himself yet to leave her because he was supporting her and she was, you know, had all those medical issues. Oh, he was just such a good guy. Yeah. He's too nice of a guy. He won't end his relationship, but he's really unhappy with her. They don't have sex.

It's basically like a brother-sister thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. really unhappy with her they don't have sex it's basically like a brother sister thing oh yeah okay and so she was like super cool with it and soon tim told her he was gonna end it for sure for real oh yeah a hundred percent so then it's super weird that like one, less than a week after when their wedding was supposed to take place, Deborah was murdered. You mean died by suicide. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Probably because he had to tell her, oh, I'm with this other person.

And she just couldn't take it. Right. Couldn't take it. Yeah. So detectives were like, OK, well, there's the motive. Yeah, absolutely. Because that was like a big hole to this point. Like, okay, well, there's the motive. Yeah, absolutely. Because that was, like, a big hole to this point. Yeah, like, why would he do this?

Why would he do this? He didn't have life insurance on her. They weren't married. Like, he had stood to gain nothing from her death until they found all this out. So he'd rather kill her than have a difficult conversation with her? Right? This man is nutless. Yeah.

Yeah. Not a nut in sight. So police were like. Just urine everywhere. Sorry. So police were like, okay, does this woman have something to do with it? Like, was she involved? And so they look into her and she's got an alibi and the whole thing.

And so, no, it seems like it was just Tim Noble. to her and she's got an alibi and the whole thing. And so, no, it seems like it was just Tim Noble. And so then they secured a search warrant to search Tim's electronics, his phone, his computer, all of that. What did he do for a living again? He was a plumber. OK, right. You said that.

But he was like he was just like a country guy. Yeah. You pegged him. OK. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I got you. And so they search his computer. And in the weeks leading up to Deborah's death, he had searched for various poisons and how to obtain them.

Okay. He'd even, they found out, had like a doctor's appointment. And while he was there getting like a regular checkup, he was like, hey, doc, let me bend your ear about something real quick. Oh, no. I have this friend. Uh-huh. And my friend has a horse. Oh. He needs to put

down. My horse is about 135 pounds and uh. And uh so I was wondering if you could give me something. And he like listed a specific poison. Uh huh. To help my friend out in putting their horse down. And the doctor was like what? Fuck. No!

No! He was like, what? Fuck. No. I was like, okay, cool. You know. Hey, little. And they asked while I was here. That's so weird. So weird. So weird.

So this was all good for the case against Tim, but they needed more. Did they really? They needed the bullet. If they could get the bullet out of Tim's leg, they could prove that it had been fired from Deborah's gun. No, they couldn't. Yeah, with ballistics tests. No, no.

That came from the fire. And good luck finding all those imaginary people. No kidding. No kidding. But there was a problem retrieving the bullet. He wouldn't give him his leg? No. So the bullet was lodged in Tim's thigh, like a millimeter from his femoral artery.

And so surgically removing it was deemed too dangerous. Yeah. They couldn't take it. You know, a lot of those Civil War guys, they just was deemed too dangerous. Yeah. They couldn't take it. You know, a lot of those Civil War guys, they just walked around with bullets. Yes. It was more dangerous to take them out. Yeah. Yeah.

And so they were like, doctors are like, sorry, we can't we can't get it out of there. So investigators needed another way to prove that it was the bullet that had killed Deborah. So they went to work with a ballistics expert who put together sort of like a reenactment. The expert took Deborah's revolver and fired a round through a piece of plywood that was the same thickness and density of a human skull. And then they took that round that had been fired through that and they made an x-ray of it. And then they compared that x-ray to the x-ray of the bullet in Tim's leg and they matched perfectly. You don't like it? I mean, that's fine but i mean i don't know that that sounds super scientific the plywood that you know yeah i i agree yeah i agree

so but this they thought like this was it like finally this was enough they secured an arrest warrant and tim was arrested and charged with first-degree murder of Deborah Holden. He was held without bond. When Tim's trial finally began in June of 2017, which is like two and a half years after the murder, like, you know, these things just don't move that fast. You know what was confusing was you were doing the fast hand gesture. That's right, but I was saying like it does. Yeah, exactly. Which is a great thing and I

appreciate it. So the prosecution gave her a thumbs down. It was very comical. Oh my god, you're missing so much. I'm topless right now. Stop it! Just letting them

know what they're missing. Brandy asked me to be topless because she's very problematic. I did not. There's a power dynamic difference. Can you imagine? If you asked me to be topless for the case, okay, here's what I would think. I'd be like, okay. I'd be like, well, Brandy has a brain tumor.

So then, you know, it'd be like, okay, how do we get Brandy to the hospital? Yeah. Yeah. Or would I just get topless and be like, she wants what she wants. Who am I to hold these things back? By these things, do you mean your tits? Yeah. I mean, obviously.

Hold these things back. By these things, do you mean your tits? Yeah. I mean, obviously. I mean, if you're asking me to be topless, it's probably not to, like, see my belly button. Yeah, I want to see your belly button. It's a lot smaller ever since the surgery. Is it smaller?

I think it's a little smaller. Interesting. I think so. Because, you know, they kind of reshape it when they go in through the... Yeah, through the... The B. Yeah. The B. What they call belly buttons. Is that what they go in through the bee. Yeah. The bee. What they call it, belly buttons.

Is that what they call belly buttons? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was afraid to clean my belly button for a while. You might just poke all the way through. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Say hello hoodle to my uterus or something. I don't know how it all works. I don't think those are connected. Listen, they had to cut through a lot of stuff. I don't know what kind of maze I'd have to go through. Sorry, you were saying? Well, I was going to say that after I had let it, I was kind of worried if my belly button would look normal. Because my mom's belly button is fucked up.

Well, that's rude. From me. Why is her belly button fucked up? Because I was a huge baby. So her belly grew so much that then when it shrunk back down, it's got, it's like her belly button's ruched now. She's got ruching on her belly button. Is it like an Audi now? Does it pop out?

No, no. No, it's above the belly button. So she's got, like, a match. Okay, you know those new leggings that are all over the internet with the butt crack ruching? Okay. I, yes, I'm familiar. Okay, we'll come back to that topic momentarily. Please, let's do that.

So imagine that right above my mom's belly button. How's your mom going to feel about us? I don't think she's going to love it. So I have suggested that she get her belly button pierced and just see if they can just kind of like scrunch that all up together. Or another idea. Yeah. Tattoo idea.

You do two eyes above it. You do whiskers coming off of it. You got yourself a cat tattoo. That's not bad. Thank you. That's not bad. Thank you. A lot of good ideas.

You're welcome, Lynn. But my belly button is totally normal. But my belly button is totally normal. Well, that seems rude to say. Me with my fucked up belly button. Your mom with hers. Your belly button ruiner. Anyway, okay, to the leggings.

Yeah. Hey, I've got a crack back here. Exactly. Hey, attention, everyone. Yeah. Hey, I've got a crack back here. Exactly. Hey, hey, attention, everyone. Hey, have you seen my ass crack? You know what would be the next step? Just like neon, like sign? No, no. So we keep the ruching down the butt crack.

Okay. But then we also do like in a different color, a little circle right over the butthole so that people just know exactly what you got going on here's my crack here's my hole yeah all right solid idea excellent i gotta say someone with a hot butt wearing leggings like that it'd be tough to look away and i know that's impossible to say without being creepy but be real tough to look away. You want to know where the hole is?

No, I don't want to know where the hole is. I'm just saying, like, when I see that ruching, to me it just screams, these are my butt cheeks. Here's the line that divides my butt cheeks. So why not just also be like, also, I've got a hole back here. Attention, everyone. I thought you were going to say, like, let, I've got a hole back here. Attention, everyone. I thought you were going to say, like, let's put some ruching in the front. I mean, not a bad idea. That's right.

A lot of cracks there for the ladies. Gosh, that'd be so uncomfortable. Oh, I can't. Can you imagine? That'd be terrible. Let's get into the legging business. Here's my intentional camel toe. I mean, could people really accuse you of having camel toe if it was that intentional? Like, yes, absolutely.

Here's all my contours. My buttery soft contours. No! I just feel like it would have to be a really soft legging. It would. It would. All right. Anyway, back to this trial.

Would you ever own a pair of leggings, like, with the ruching on the butt? Not like with the butthole. No, I don't think so. What's the farthest you go with a pair of leggings like with the ruching on the butt? Not like with the butthole. No, I don't think so. What's the farthest you go with a pair of leggings? Do you do the cutouts? Do you do it? I have a pair. Yeah, I have.

Okay. I know you're very, very selective. I am. I am. My raciest pair of leggings. Okay, let's hear it. Let's all get heated up. What you got?

What are they? Capri length? Woo! I believe they are. I believe they are. I believe they are. Uh-huh. And then up the back. Okay.

They've got a cutout all the way up to mid-thigh, which has mesh. Yep. Okay. Uh-huh. And then over the mesh. What's that? It's like crisscrosses. Uh-huh.

So it's like, you know, it's like corset up the back of the legs. Those sound pretty nice. Pretty racy. So when you want to get stuffed, you wear those. So I just gave people a little peek into your sex life. I'm sure my parents will appreciate that, Kristen. Look, your mom already hated the belly button talk. This is just, you know.

She's not even going to notice this part. Anyway, enough. Enough of this. Enough, Brandy. Enough. God, enough. Enough, Brandy. Enough. God, my God. All I want to do is get to the case and you just keep going on these tangents. Okay. So the trial finally begins in June of 2017, and the prosecution told the jury that Tim Noble had murdered Deborah Holden because she was in the way.

She was keeping him from the life he wanted to start with his mistress. It was a murder motivated by lust. They told the jury that they believed Tim was sitting on the couch and that he'd, like, called Deborah over and had her lay his head in her lap. And when she'd fallen asleep, he'd shot and killed her. Not thinking that the bullet would exit her head and go into his leg. That is the, I mean, okay. Hey, sweetie, come lay down on my lap. Let me, let me rub your head for you. Let me rub your back. Let me rub your head for you.

Let me rub your back. I think it's totally feasible or plausible. How dumb would you have to be? To shoot somebody whose head is laying? Yes, that's what I'm saying. I mean, I know this guy's dumb, but I think it's just amazing how dumb. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. But yeah, I don't understand what other way it could happen unless he was like, do no kick.

And then he acts. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, I think it's the most plausible explanation. Yeah. And then it was the defense's turn. Oh, the poor defense.

In their opening arguments, they dropped a bombshell. Let's hear it. They told the jury that Deborah Holden had died by suicide. She was a depressed woman who had dealt with chronic pain for years and had never recovered from the death of her parents. In fact, she still talked to them regularly on Facebook. They, like, point this out. Which I think is just shitty. I think lots of people suffering from loss and grief do that, like post messages on people's Facebook.

I think it's an awful thing that they said. But that's not the bombshell. More importantly, though, they told the jury, Tim Noble knew Deborah Holden had died by suicide because he had been there. Oh, oh, okay, okay. Well, yeah, they've got to say something to explain away that footage. All right, let's hear it. Tim had come home for lunch that day, and he sat down on the couch, and he put his feet up on the footstool, and he had nodded off.

And he was startled awake a short time later by the sound of an explosion. And when he awoke, he found Deborah Holden with her head in his lap, dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Immediately, he thought it looked really bad and that people would automatically think that he had murdered Deborah. And so he panicked and he ditched the clothes he'd been wearing that day and he pretended to discover her body later that evening. Okay. I don't think this is bad at all. I don't think it's a bad strategy.

The defense has been dealt clearly a guilty man, clearly a shitty hand. What else are you going to say? Yeah. Clearly a guilty man. Clearly a shitty hand. What else are you going to say? Yeah. And so the prosecution like shits their pants.

Yeah. When the defense gets up and says this because they're like. But they also did the hat tip thing. Am I right? Yeah. They're like, all right. I see what you're doing. Can we talk about. How you sent me all those gifts.

Yeah. I asked to get dibs on a case. Uh-huh. And you said yes, so I sent you a creepy hat tip gift. And you said nothing. Yeah. So then I, just for fun, I found another case. And I do want dibs on it, but it was really more for the lols.

So then I asked for that. You said yes. So then I sent you another one that said tipping intensifies. And it wasn't until the third gift that you finally were like, why are you? I was like, how many hat tip gifts are there? There are several. I will not be ignored. So the prosecution like shits their pants when this bombshell is dropped.

Would the jury believe this version? And it really diluted their big aha moment that they had planned for the jury when they would show the matching bullet x-rays. But they continued with theirial evidence they had against Tim Noble, including the affair, the secret engagement, the computer search history, and the lack of gunshot residue on Debra's hands. The defense put up a pretty good fight, though. They contended that Tim Noble had nothing to gain by murdering Debra. They weren't married. There wasn't life insurance. He supported her.

If he wanted to end the relationship he just would have ended it and they said that tim had extensive gun knowledge he never would have made the mistake of accidentally shooting himself in the leg he would have known that that bullet would go through and through in a surprise move no no no no, no, no, no. They did not put him on the stand. Tim Noble took the stand in his own defense. No, okay, I was just thinking this whole defense hinges on

the idea that he is smarter than he actually is. You put him on the stand, the jury's going to know, oh wait, he's a total fucking idiot who really did shoot a woman over his own thigh. Yeah. Yep.

And that's pretty much exactly what he did. He got on the stand. He talked about that day. He testified that he woke up that morning about 5 a.m. and, you know, kissed Debra goodbye and left for work. And then he called her later that day, blah, blah, blah. And then when he returned home later that day blah blah blah and then when he returned home later that morning Debra was in the kitchen he said I went into the living room and sat down on the couch put my feet on the stool I take little naps I like to take little naps and so

I'm laying there taking a little nap and I was woke up by a loud bang. I looked around and I saw Deborah's head in my lap. I jumped up and in my mind I said, this is bad. And I ran. I went back to work. He testified that at that time he was unaware that he had a wound to his leg. Mm hmm. At some point. You know, it's always an adventure when I get undressed

at the end of the day. Will I have bullet wounds? Will I not? You just never know. Exactly. Like, at some point, he's like, oh, shit, there's blood all over my pants, and what's this hole in my pants? Oh, my goodness. And so he took his clothes off, bandaged up the wound, and ditched those clothes.

Yeah, sure. He, like, dumped them in a dumpster somewhere. He testified, There's a lot that day I don't remember. I was trying to make it look as normal as I could. He said he returned home at the end of the day, and then he called 911. He said, I told 911 she's not breathing, she's hurting all the time, and that I was holding her.

He said he never told the dispatcher that she had been shot. Don't they record those things? Yeah, and they played the recording in court. Like, yeah. Over the next few days, he went and saw some friends and he had a couple of doctor's appointments. He went and talked to an attorney and he told them all the same story about. So he told a couple of different versions. Most people he told the bonfire version.

And then I think maybe to the attorney he told the real version. Most people he told the bonfire version. And then I think maybe to the attorney he told the real version. But on the stand he said, I told a lot of lies. I tried to cover up each lie with another lie. Mm-hmm. And then he testified about the affair. He said, despite the wedding plans, despite the engagement ring that he bought, he testified that things weren't as they appeared i weren't going to marry her noble said on the stand he said all of that was for sex

just to keep her having sex with him yeah his testimony completed with his attorney asking him one last question, like as a rebuttal. His attorney said, did you shoot Deborah Holden? And Tim Noble replied, no, sir. If I wanted her gone, I would have told her to go. In closing arguments, the state reminded the jury of. Was the other woman present for this hearing? So she did a lot. She did several interviews with the police.

I'm not sure if she testified at the trial or not. I was going to say, that'd be a real kick in the scunch to hear. Oh, I was just using her for sex. When you're his fiancé. Fiancé. Where you had a whole wedding planned. Yeah. Invitations were sent out. A venue for sex. Yeah. When you're his fiance. Where you had a whole wedding planned. Yeah. Invitations were sent out.

A venue was booked. Yeah. You were not just having sex with her. I think the worst thing about casual sex is all the invitations. all the invitations. In closing arguments, the state reminded the jury of all that evidence that they had found

on Tim Noble's computer where he had been searching for various poisons and how to buy them. The jury deliberated for only a couple of hours and returned a verdict of guilty. Tim Noble was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole.

He has appealed his conviction on the grounds that the trial court erred in not instructing the jury that they could find him guilty of the lesser charge of second-degree murder. But that appeal was denied. That's the story of the missing bullet. That was wild. That show should be called Dumb, Dumb, and Dumber. Wow. Yeah. That poor woman, that poor woman's family.

Oh, yeah. Murdered over nothing oh yeah and like the family does some they have some interviews with the family on this and they're like tim was great tim took care of our sister for years like we he was always great to her he was great to us this came as a complete shock to them. Wow. Yeah. Oh, God, that poor woman. I bet all those people at that bonfire feel really guilty now that he's in prison, huh? Yeah, I bet so.

Huh, gang? Am I right? That's right. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No. Lord almighty. Okay, you ready for something? Oh, I am.

I got something for you. What do you got for me? A Black Widow? Black Widow, baby. You knew I would have to sing that? Mm-hmm. Okay. See, you always think of that.

Yeah. When we say Black Widow. I think of an SNL sketch. Okay. It's theL sketch. Okay. It's the Target Lady. Okay. It's the episode with Justin Timberlake. One of the episodes with Justin Timberlake. Uh-huh. And he plays Peg.

Uh-huh. Classic Peg. Classic Peg. And he What? Thinks that there's a Black Widow spider on his leg. But it turns out she's a crushed black licorice jelly bean. I would laugh, but I'm still mad about what he did to Janet Jackson. Anyway. True story.

All right. Here we go. Shout outs to. First of all, I want to say I. No, I don't want to say anything. I've got a lot of feelings about this case. Okay. Okay.

All right. You're going to keep them inside? Feelings out the yin yang. Conceal, don't feel. Conceal, don't feel. You're like, conceal your feelings, don't feel your feelings? Is that a thing that people say? Oh.

Seems like something there should be a song going against that. Shout outs to. Don't let them in. Don't let them see. Your penis? Yeah, that's exactly the next line in the Disney movie, Kristen. I guess into your penis doesn't really make sense. That would have been way better if I'd said vagine.

Oh, well. Oh, well. It's been, it's out there now. Can't possibly edit this stuff. It's all gold. Solid gold. Okay, okay. Anyway. Okay, well. Oh, well. It's out there now. Can't possibly edit this stuff. It's all gold. Solid gold. Okay, okay. Anyway.

Okay, enough. Shout outs to an episode of 2020 called Five Weddings and a Murder. Ooh. An episode of Mugshots. Had you ever watched Mugshots? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

They hadn't quite figured out how to do the background music at an appropriate level. Oh. And so, you know, there was some real big violin music and, you know, anyway. Also, newspapers.com. Okay. You ready for this? I am. The year is 1960.

And 30-year-old Ron Rudin, a stone-cold cutie pie with dimples and a dark pompadour, arrived in... Speaking my language. I know, you love a dimple, you love a pompadour. Arrived in beautiful Las Vegas. He was determined to become a big shot. He wanted to get rich. And spoiler alert, he did. Ron bought a strip mall and he put his office in there and he bought up real estate and more real estate and sold some real estate and bought some real estate. And he became a real estate developer in addition to being a realtor. And also he was a part time gun dealer because it's important to have a side hustle. And as the city of Las Vegas grew, so did Ron's fortune.

He was living large. He was a multimillionaire. He was also a character. He wore cowboy boots everywhere. He dressed all in black like he was living in a Johnny Cash song or cosplaying as Brandy. What? That was wonderful. I have to pause you real quick.

Okay. You saying that he dressed as a cowboy. No, he wore cowboy boots and dressed all in black. Reminded me of a piece of correspondence we received this week. When? From a gentleman who said, I'd like to share my severed penis story with you. Oh my gosh. from a gentleman who said, I'd like to share my severed penis story with you.

Oh my gosh. We haven't even discussed that. Oh my gosh. Okay. Tell. Tell the tale. The gentleman reached out to us, asked to remain anonymous.

I don't know why. Anyway, he was putting together the perfect cowboy Halloween costume, and he procured an amazing large rhinestone belt buckle. And then at the end of the night, things were getting frisky. Wow. Are you in my brain? Basically. Basically.

And the belt buckle seemed, you know, it's vintage. Uh-huh. A little rusty. It was a little rusty. And so he was like, okay, I'll just unzip my pants and then, you know, wiggle them down. Mm-hmm. And the belt buckle sliced his penis. Now, I think you really should have led with why he told us this, because not everyone

has listened to all the episodes in order. Okay. Fair enough. On a previous episode, we talked about belt buckles, and I was curious because some belt buckles are quite large. I was curious if anyone has ever severed their penis with a giant belt buckle.

And I said that was ridiculous. And this man wrote in. He had to get stitches. He went to the ER. You're missing my favorite part. He went to the ER still dressed as a cowboy because, you know. You need to go right now. And his partner, who had been dressed as a cow that night, still had the black and white

penis. The spots, Peter. Anyway, he's okay now. Yeah, he did have to get stitches and a tetanus shot. Hashtag prayers for his pink. So anyway, back to Ron. Ron drove a sweet black Cadillac, and he had a gold bracelet that he wore everywhere. But you would, too, if you had a gold bracelet that had your name spelled out in diamonds.

Woo! You're right. I would wear that. It just said Ron, which I feel like if you really wanted to, you'd do Ronald. Yeah. But, you know, Ron. Ron. All right.

It's cheaper that way. That's why you just have bra on yours. Yeah. It's a real mixed message. People are very confused by it. As I mentioned, Ron loved guns. He owned tons of them, over a thousand of them. What?

In fact, he had an arsenal in his very own home. He had a thousand guns? That's what someone said, yeah. Over a thousand guns. What? Too many? Yes. Not enough?

What? Too many guns. Sounds kind of judgy. At that point, I feel like you're just like opening a cabinet and a fucking gun falls out. And then, oh, here's this drawer. Oh, there's a fucking gun there. You're getting an arsenal. I mean, this thing was.

I get what you're saying. Do you? Because you're acting like they were falling out of cupboards. I think they are falling out of cupboards. And like, oh, oh, don't sit on that pillow. There's a gun under there. Like. Maybe that's how Tim got shot in the leg.

It probably is. Guns everywhere. To put it simply, Ron loved money and guns and ladies. Ron loved love. He loved to love. He loved to be loved. Ooh, love to love you, baby. Did he love to make love?

Okay, I don't know about that. And that is too much, too far, too soon. We just told that frisky story about the cowboy. So in 1962, he married Donna, who had voluminous I Dream of Jeannie hair and chandelier earrings. Their marriage lasted less than a year. A few years later, he married Carolyn, and I did not see a picture of her, but I did see pictures of his other wives. And since this story is set in Las Vegas, I'd like to gamble that Carolyn was a pretty, skinny white lady with blonde, voluminous hair.

Wonderful. At some point, Carolyn and Ron divorced. After that, he married Peggy, who had super voluminous blonde hair, a bit of a 1970s helmet look. Oh, yeah. My grandma had one of those. I mean, it was a thing. And Peggy and Ron appeared to have a happy marriage, but Peggy did suffer from depression and she died by suicide in the master bedroom. But there were some questions as to whether Peggy's death had been a suicide.

Oh. Yeah, Brandi, you've probably seen this story on your favorite show. Oh, accident, murder, or suicide. this story on your favorite show. On my show, Accident, Murder, or Suicide. By this point, Ron had a reputation for being, depending on who you asked, an unscrupulous businessman. Maybe he was unscrupulous in all areas of his life. So investigators looked into Peggy's death and they discovered that the gun that was used to kill Peggy had Ron's fingerprints on it. But ultimately, the investigation concluded that Peggy had, in fact, died by suicide. And what year?

The 70s, I think. Yeah. I'm not feeling real confident about that investigation. Why? Well, they got some plywood and what more do you need? All right. All right. All right. Touche.

So Ron was once again single, and this time he married a woman named Karen. And guess what? Karen had voluminous blonde hair, and their marriage ended in divorce. By this point, it's 1987. Ron was sitting in a pew at the First Church of Religious Science in Las Vegas. Religious science? What's that? Is that like Christian science?

I have no idea. I tried to look into it. Bit of a rabbit hole. Couldn't really find anything. But I was intrigued. Yeah, sounds like a cult. On their website, the pastor wears a lab coat. Sorry. There's just beakers all around beakers and crucifixes as far

as the i can see no that's that's a lie there are no crucifixes just beakers and beaker from the muppets yeah it's also there Well, he's a member of the congregation. You know, a lot of people don't know that the Muppets all have their own individual choices and religious preferences. It's a very welcoming

group there, the Muppets. Anyway, he was in the... Kristen hates the Muppets, guys. I fucking hate the Muppets. I don't get the appeal at all. You are a grown woman who loves the Muppets, so... Kristen also hates Bluey, so...

I don't hate Bluey. I don't hate Bluey. I just hate that Bluey's a rapist. Love the sin or hate the sin is what I say. I'm sorry. That's the only way I figured I could get you to never tell me another plot of Bluey again. So, yeah, a woman caught his eye at church and you're not going to believe this, but she had

voluminous blonde hair. Yep, and her name was Margaret. Did she go by Peggy? What? That's a common nickname for Margaret. That's bullshit. That's accurate. No. Yes. How do you get from Margaret to Peggy? How do you get from John to Jack?

It's just a thing. Is it really? Yes. Christian, you're right now. Are you serious? Yes. You know, wait, so, everyone

who's named Peggy, if you go to but i mean a lot uh-huh if you go to like their birth certificate you're gonna see margaret yeah that is the weirdest thing i've ever heard i hate it your face right now but i mean it makes sense you would never i mean no one's like real name is Peggy. Yeah, very few people. It's got to be something bigger than Peggy. Yeah. I just never would have guessed Margaret.

Well, I hate this. I've learned a lot today. Let's pack it up. So let's talk about Margaret, who didn't go by Peggy because that's crazy. Okay. Margaret was born in Memphis, Tennessee. I had a neighbor named Margaret growing up and she was my age and she went by Meg. Yeah, I kind of see how you get there.

Although I would argue you should be Megan if you're going by Meg. Do you think she should have gone by Marg? Yeah. Or just Rhett. I should make these rules. Yeah. You know? Yep.

So she was the oldest of three daughters, and her dad was a barber, and he was super conservative. Margaret wasn't allowed to wear slacks or shorts. She wasn't even allowed to cut her hair, which seems bad for business. And when Elvis Presley came on TV, well, it was time to turn off the TV because no one needed to see those gyrations.

Yeah, I was going to say, all that pelvic thrusting. Chitillated, no. The family moved constantly. By the time Margaret graduated high school, she'd moved 22 times to 15 different states. Why are you making a face? I have a question. What's up? Was the hair thing a religious thing?

It could be. It could also be just like... Washing the feet of Jesus. Do you know that? Certain religions that keep their hair long, the women keep their hair long, so that they can wash the feet of Jesus with it. See, I was going for more contemporary douchebaggery of like, no god or a mind is going to have short hair. You're going to have long hair and you're going to not wear slacks and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.

You know. Okay. You know how it goes. All right. I didn't know that. Are you against those religions because it's bad for your business bad for my business and their ends typically look terrible sure they do well you know hair can get too long yeah sure can anyway so once margaret graduated she was ready for a stable life. She married a guy named Jerry Mason.

Not Perry Mason, Jerry Mason. Sorry to disappoint. They married right out of high school and had two children. They lived north of Chicago, and man, oh man, did they have the Norman Rockwell life. White picket fence? Check. Adorable dog? Check. A fabulous bouffant? Check. Check. For respect to the bouffant. Yeah. But after 10 years, it all fell apart when Jerry Mason,

not Perry Mason, had an affair. So Margaret divorced her husband and it was tough because now she was a single mom. But she got her real estate license and started working and pretty soon she discovered that she could make it on her own. But just because she could make it on her own didn't mean that she wanted to be on her own. Yeah. Because, stop me if this sounds familiar, Margaret loved love. She loved to love. She loved to love. She loved to be loved.

Ooh, love to love you, baby. I did not bet on you joining me in song. So she got married again and divorced again and married again and divorced again. And then in 1981, she moved to Las Vegas and got married again and divorced again. And she wants you to know that got married again and divorced again. And she wants you to know that she's a people pleaser. She's very easy to be married to. And that's why none of the men she married ever asked her for a divorce. She had to be the one to bring it up herself. Okay. All right. So now it's 1987. Would you say you're easy to be married to? I would not say that about myself.

I don't think I am. So now it's 1987. I am what you call a lot. I'm what you call a handful. Yeah. So now it's 1987. And she's single. And Ron's single. And they're in the sexiest place in town, church.

And Margaret was talking with one of her friends at church, and she joked, the next husband I have is going to wear cowboy boots. And she said that because in Vegas, macho men wear cowboy boots. Macho. Oh, I have that next. Yes. So she liked macho men. Macho, macho men wear cowboy boots. Macho. Oh, I have that next. Yes. So she liked macho men. Macho, macho man. I've got to be a macho man.

And her friend was like, OMG, Margaret, there's a guy over there and he keeps looking at you and he's singing the macho man song and he's wearing cowboy boots. It was meant to be. It was like a gift from the Lord. The Lord. It was meant to be. It was like a gift from the Lord. The Lord.

So Margaret and Ron got to talking and he asked her to a little after church lunch, which is kind of... A little afternoon delight, if you will. No, Brandy. Skyrockets in flight. No, slow your roll, it's church. Listen, they've both been married like six times. They know what's up. Four times each. Okay.

Right now, it's just a little after church lunch to get to know one another. Can you tap the brakes? Can you, please? Anyway, she thought he was the slickest, smartest, suavest person she'd ever known. So they started dating and they had an afternoon delight. One of Ron's ex-wives tried to talk Margaret out of getting serious with him. She said, he's into shady business dealings. He's a womanizer.

But Margaret didn't listen. the shady business dealings. He's a womanizer. But Margaret didn't listen. Margaret and Ron got married on September 11th, 1987, which is a real fun anniversary to have, I'm sure. Margaret says she was drawn to Ron because he was so funny. He was a blast to be around.

And in a real weird moment in this episode of 2020, when she's explaining that she was, like, drawn to Ron for his humor and, you know, oh, good times, she leans over and asks the off-camera interviewer, did you want to hear he was the best lover I ever had? Hmm. What? So she... What? So he did love to make love. Well, no, she didn't say he was the best lover. She said, did you want to hear that?

Which to me means it's still up in the air. Did you want to hear that I was a supermodel? It's not quite the same. You're right. As lying and saying that I was a super model. So these two moved lightning fast, lickety split, because they've never heard of taking it slow. And Margaret said everything was great until they moved in together. And who could blame her? Ron was a multimillionaire. He was a real estate mogul. And his house, which was the same one he had lived in with all his previous wives and girlfriends. Bad juju.

I was going to say, there's a lot of bad juju going on in there. You'd have to burn so much sage. Well, one of them died there. Yes. Yes. It was basically a two bedroom compound. With an artillery room. Priorities.

Okay, so I saw some pictures of it. I think it looks kind of cute from the front. But man, it had these big, not at all nice looking walls around it along the outside. And then security cameras, which I know those are super common now. They weren't super common in the 90s. That was kind of a weird paranoid thing. And it looked like a fortress. But Ron refused to move. He loved that his compound was right behind the strip mall that he owned, which was where he had his office.

It was super convenient, like a convenience store. So Margaret moved in to this not terribly nice place. And when she did, she made another discovery. What's that? What do you think? I don't know. I'm scared. You're making faces. I'm scared.

You have a guess. I don't. You have a guess. I don't have a guess. I don't have a guess. You have a guess. I don't have a guess. She discovered that the house hadn't been renovated since Peggy's suicide, which gave her a chronic case of the heebie-jeebies.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she was like, my name's also Peggy, so this is feeling really weird. No, that is weird. Hang on. You don't believe me? No.

Margaret Peggy. hang on you don't believe me no margaret peggy okay first thing is how do you get peggy from margaret okay over the years maggie morphed to meggy and meg likely because of accents changing the vowel sound, that continued to transform into the Peggy and Peg we know today. Oh, I hate it. I don't like it at all. All right, well, glad we got to the bottom of that. Back to the story. So she also discovered that Ron wasn't too worried about being a good husband. He was having an affair with an IRS agent, which sounds boring.

I mean, it seems like it's for business purposes. Strictly for business. One night, Margaret overheard Ron talking on the phone with a woman he dated before they got married. And she was pissed. And Ron didn't seem to care that she was pissed. By the way, are you steamed up? It is a fucking sauna in here. Oh, my God.

I feel like I've lost seven pounds just sitting in here. Just so you know, we suffer for this podcast, everyone. This is true suffering right here. Don't suffer in silence. Because brandy just peed her pants it's stuffy and we're just gonna keep rolling that's right two more hours and these are cloth seats just getting absorbed in here so you know margaret akagy, for some reason, she hears Ron talking on the phone with this woman who he dated before they got married. And they start fighting. She says he slapped her, so she grabbed a gun. He wrestled it out of her hand, and she was terrified by the look on his face.

She knew she had to leave, but he begged her not to. At some point, the timeline is a little messy on all this, at some point about a year into their marriage, the couple separated. And around that time, Ron noticed that one of his guns was missing. It was a.22. So he wrote a letter to the police notifying them that one of his guns had gone missing. He didn't speculate as to who might have taken it, but he did say that it went missing around the time that he and Margaret separated and she moved out. But don't worry, Ron and Margaret did reconcile. They went to counseling and things were better? Question mark.

Maybe. Margaret claims that one night he said to her, what would you say if I told you I'd murdered Peggy? And Margaret responded by saying, no, no, you're not going to relieve your guilt by telling me. I don't want to know. And he said, OK. And they never talked about it again. Wow. But I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Margaret was no saint. A lot of people think that she cheated on Ron with a total hottie named Yehuda Sharon. Yehuda had dark hair, olive skin, and he was an officer in Israel's intelligence agency.

And again, can't stress this enough, he was a total hottie. What? This is the second Yehuda we've had on this show. Really? Yeah. Is it a common name? I have no idea. It must be.

I believe. What are the chances? chances i believe if i remember correctly he was the clarinet like aficionado from that eric abramovitz story you did oh maybe man you've got a good memory was he hot i don't know are all yahudas hot i believe i think that's what we have to we have to... We have to assume. We have to assume all Yehudas are hot. Okay, very good. So Margaret said she never had an affair with him because she was married and he wasn't her type. So I guess she wasn't into hot dudes. All right, whatever. So I know it sounds like Margaret and Ron's marriage was a real hoot, a fairy tale, a hallmark movie in the making. But you should know that over the years, Ron became increasingly paranoid, increasingly afraid of people,

and he drank more heavily. So, in 1991, he had his attorney write up a directive for his will. Here's what it said. To my fiduciaries, I request that in the event my death is caused by violent means, for example, gunshot, knife, or a violent automobile accident, extraordinary steps be taken in investigating the true cause of the death. Should said death be caused, directly or indirectly, by a beneficiary of my estate,

said beneficiary shall be totally excluded from my estate and or any trusts I have in existence. Okay. So there's so few times in life where you get to use the word fiduciary. And here we sit. Yeah. Living like kings. That's right. Saying fiduciary. Yeah.

Anytime we want. Fidelity Fiduciary Bank. Fiduciary is really fun to say. It's a fun word to say. So, yeah, Ron was paranoid, and it seems like he was suspicious of the beneficiaries of his estate. And, of course, one of those beneficiaries was Margaret. But over the next few years, he gradually increased her share of the estate, which seems to indicate that things were getting better between them.

Maybe even good. So now it's 1994, and Ron was rich and paranoid and drinking quite a bit, and he was also involved in a major real estate deal. He owned property in Lee Canyon, which he wanted to develop into an RV resort. But he needed financing, and he was expecting to make a sale very soon. But how was he going to pull that off?

Rumors began circulating that Ron was working with organized crime to get this thing financed. The mob? Bob Moss is everywhere. Oh, my gosh. Allegedly. Yeah. So Ron had this big real estate deal that was coming to fruition, and Margaret had an equally exciting business venture of her very own.

She was opening an antique store. Hello! Ooh la la! The dream. That would be so fun to have an antique store. Oh, I think it would suck. I think it would suck. You love antiques!

Yeah, I don't want to... Nope, I don't want to own an antique store. Okay, why? You're dealing with a bunch of cranky old people all the time. That's probably true. I also, I don't think I'd like to work in a place where everyone wanted to negotiate on the price of everything. I think I'd want to be in a place where it's just like, no, I've got the price on there, Peggy, Peg, Margaret, whatever your name is. So you just pay that. What about you?

It's your dream? Yeah. See, my big problem is none of that. Okay. It's the smell. Yeah. No, I was actually going to say that too. Yeah.

They don't smell good. No. Antique stores, not the people. Antique stores, they don't smell good. No. A lot of the stuff is crap. I think especially if you're dealing with, like, a bunch of different people have a booth. Oh, yeah.

Then you're dealing with all these personalities of all these nuts. No. Like, last thing I want to do is own an antique store. Okay. I'd rather be a part-time gun dealer. Because of my extensive knowledge. Yeah. That's a gun. That's a gun. And that's a knife.time gun dealer. Because of my extensive knowledge. Yeah. That's a gun.

That's a gun. And that's a knife. Mm-hmm. Also, we have snacks. So on December 17th, 1994, Margaret held the grand opening of her brand-new antique store in Ron's Strip Mall. She was very excited.

Afterward, they went home. They had planned to go see a movie, but then that didn't work out, so Margaret went back to the antique store, and she closed the antique store late that evening, and then she went to go talk to another tenant in the strip mall, and by the time she got home, it was like 2 a.m.

What? You know what they say. Antiquing. It's the business that never sleeps. No! They say that all the time. Antique stores, they shut down at like 4 p.m. In time for dinner. Yes! So Margaret got home. She's just exhausted from the grand opening of her antique store.

The grueling day at the antique store. Yes. Yes, Brandy. What were three people came through? It's the first day. Grand opening. Do you understand a grand opening? Okay, what, did she have a giant balloon outside and one of those just wacky, wavy, inflatable

line a mile long full of people complaining about the weather and the traffic? You wouldn't believe it. Also, they had complimentary coffee and creamer made of powder. Yeah. So she gets home. Ron's Cadillac wasn't there, which was odd. And their security alarm wasn't on. Margaret thought it was strange, but she was so tired that she went to bed.

And the next day came and there was still no sign of Ron. And so now it's Monday, December 19th and Ron still hadn't come home. But Margaret knew that that Wednesday he was going to sell the Lee Canyon property. So she figured he must have gone to that property one last time. What? Okay, so we're just letting days go by where we don't know where Ron is? What? Okay, that's super sus. Would you be a little concerned if David just didn't show up for two days? I would be concerned when he wasn't there when I got home at 2 a.m.

I wouldn't just, oh, it's too bad. We'll figure it out tomorrow. Okay. Kind of a clinger, aren't you? I am a stage five clinger. So she figured he must have gone to that property to see it one last time before he sold it. The property was about an hour's drive from Las Vegas, and Ron had a trailer out there that he sometimes spent the night in. So Margaret called her friend who lived in Lee Canyon and was like, hey, is Ron out there?

And the friend went to Ron's trailer and couldn't find him and went all over the property and couldn't find him. And Margaret called all of Ron's family and they hadn't heard from him either. She says she called missing persons, but they said call us back when it's been 48 hours. But other sources said that Ron's employees were the ones who actually reported him missing. They were the ones who freaked out on Monday morning when Ron didn't show up for work. That wasn't like him to just not show up for work. And as word got out that Ron was missing, some of Ron's friends became suspicious of Margaret. Maybe she had something to do with his disappearance. Eventually, police did get involved and they searched the house and

Ron's office, but they didn't find anything that led them back to Margaret. They did find it odd that when they talked to her, she seemed totally unconcerned about Ron's whereabouts and very concerned about what would happen with Ron's money. Yeah, that is odd. A little sus. Yeah. Then investigators found out about that directive in Ron's will, the one that specifically mentioned the beneficiaries of his estate being sketchballs. It seemed like Margaret was the biggest sketchball of them all.

Plot twist. But then again, Ron, who had a bit of a reputation for being a little sketchy himself, had disappeared just two days before he was going to settle that Lee Canyon deal. Maybe that's why he was missing. It was a real whodunit, Brandy. Margaret. Four days passed. Still Margaret.

Then investigators found Ron's missing Cadillac. Then investigators found Ron's missing Cadillac. It was parked behind the Crazy Horse 2 Gentleman's Club, which looked a little like the Parthenon and a lot like Sadness. Where's the Crazy Horse 1 at? It's also in town. I'm devastated to report that the club is now closed, which means that gentlemen are just roaming the streets of Las Vegas with no place to gather. Yeah, I'm sure. Here's a fun fact.

Crazy Horse 2 Gentleman's Club is so infamous that it has its own Wikipedia page which details all of its mob ties. Oh, damn. Yeah, here's another fun fact. Ron's Cadillac was backed into a parking space in the club, and the car was covered in dirt and mud. Inside the vehicle were four sets of muddy footprints. There was clothing in the trunk. There were fingerprints in the car that did not belong to Ron or Margaret. Oh, shit. The car was a total mess, which was weird because Ron took meticulous care of his car.

2020 said that he had a guy whose, like, sole job was to keep the car looking nice. That's probably... Yeah. Someone with his means was probably doing that. He was in a two-bedroom... Yeah. Not because he doesn't have money, because he's a freaking paranoid weirdo. He's now dead and I shouldn't talk about him like that.

About a month passed. Ron was nowhere to be found. So the trustees of the estate put out a $25,000 reward for information. Still, they heard nothing. But then came January 23, 1995. It was near midnight on Lake Mojave. It was near midnight on Lake Mojave, and some fishermen came across a decapitated human skull. With cement shoes?

Oh, it's just the skull. Oh. That was amazing. Clearly. I thought it was going to be just the body. Should we also talk about how you say cement and not cement? I have no idea. I say it weird. Apparently I do.

I don't always. I think I say it both. Wow. I think I say it both ways. You can't have it both ways, Brandy. No, when you said cement on a couple episodes ago, I was like, should I make fun of her? And then I thought, no. And then the listeners started making fun of you. Yeah, I don't know what Brandy's obsession is with cement.

Cement? So they found a decapitated human skull, Brandy. Cement shoes nowhere to be found. It was nowhere to be found. It had three bullet holes in the back and one in the front. Not far from the skull, they found an area where it looked like the rest of the body had been burned. And in that area were the remains of a burned out old trunk. And not...

What? Like a trunk. Yeah, well, what do you... Were you thinking a trunk had been cut off from a car? Yep. Oh my God, what is happening today? Too hot here. Yeah, the heat has gotten to your brain.

It is so fudging hot. Hang on, let me text Norm to see if he'll turn on the air for us. We don't have to turn the air on. It's going to be cool again tomorrow. We'll make it. Oh, my God. We'll survive.

I don't know. You should get your air all going. I know how fussy you get when you get too hot. And I'm a bit the same way myself. I feel like this episode is going to get real rough. I'm just, my brain's not working properly. My ponytail's suddenly very tight. Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm. Whew. Not far from all that was a gold bracelet. That said Ron in diamonds? Yep. Oh, no. Based off dental records, investigators discovered that the skull had belonged to Ron Rudin. When detectives broke the news to Margaret, she seemed upset and rubbed her eyes, but no tears came out.

So, yeah, they were pretty sure that Margaret had killed her husband. They believed, judging from the hardware on the burned-out trunk, that it was a humpback trunk. And they found a receipt for a humpback trunk in Margaret's inventory, but there was no humpback trunk in the store. She had to have killed her husband, but she couldn't have done it alone. This was not a one-person job. Yeah, she's not carrying that trunk out there by herself. She had to have help. They were pretty sure they knew who had helped her.

It was Yehuda Sharon, that stone-cold hottie. Investigators developed a theory that Margaret had shot Ron while he slept in their home and called Yehuda to have him help her dispose of Ron's body. So they went to Yehuda, and they were like, we know you helped her. And Yehuda was like, what? I'm just sitting over here being hot. But as it turned out, Yehuda had rented a van around the time that Ron went missing. So investigators were like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So you rented the van, took out the back seat, and used the vehicle to transport Ron's body. Gotcha.

Yeah. And Yehuda was like, no. I rented it to go to my part-time job in California and ended up turning around and going back to Las Vegas. I had nothing to do with this murder. I was with my girlfriend the whole time. And Yehuda's girlfriend backed up that story. She'd been with him the whole weekend.

He couldn't have gone off and helped Margaret dispose of the body. For investigators, this really blew chunks. Yeah. They knew that Margaret was responsible for Ron's murder, but nothing was coming together.

Then, Eureka! A handyman named Augustine Lovato came forward. Sorry, not sorry. No relation to Demi. Augustine said

he was hired by Margaret to clean up the house in the days after Ron's murder. Oh, shit. She wanted him to renovate the master bedroom. He said he cleaned up what looked like blood. He even noticed a substance gurgling up from the bathtub drain. He was pretty sure it was a bunch of gurgling blood. What, Brandy?

What? What? That sounds like bullshit. Gurgling blood? Yeah. Was this a fucking haunted house? Well, maybe after Peggy and Ron. Isn't that right?

As a result of sharing this story, Augustine collected the $25,000 reward. He fucking made it up to get the reward. There's no gurgling blood. You know, sometimes it all works out. Sometimes you've got the information and oopsies, you get a reward. Fudge stripes, here we go. Fudge stripe cookies on the house. But some people were skeptical of Augustine.

He took it one step too far. Gurgling blood was like, what? So the first thing was like, so he noticed this blood, but missing persons detectives hadn't when they'd searched the house? Yeah. And gurgling blood from a bathtub? Is that even a thing that happens days after a murder? No! It is not.

I am here to tell you. Brandy has killed many persons. When I committed my murders, I didn't have any gurgling blood. But a lot of people believed Augustine. This was the nail in the coffin. Margaret had killed Ron. Case closed. So in no time,

the trustees of Ron's estate cut Margaret off from her inheritance, and they also cut off the small salary that she received from Ron's business, and they argued that they were justified in doing this because they were following the directive in Ron's will. She'd caused his death. Therefore, she couldn't receive anything from the estate. Too bad. So sad.

That was a pretty big blow financially. Yeah. She was supposed to inherit 60% of the estate, and his estate was worth $12 million. Adjusted for inflation, $21 million. Wow. Wow. That'll buy you a lot of cement. But now she had nothing. No money, no inheritance, no antique shop.

They took her antique shop, Brandy. Well, yeah, what she's doing with her humpback drunks. And as the cherry on top of the very shitty sundae, everyone thought she was a murderer. This story was all over the news. Margaret quickly got the nickname, the Black Widow of Las Vegas. Now it's January of 1996.

There wasn't enough to get Margaret on criminal charges, but the trustees of Ron's estate were more than willing to go after her in civil court. They wanted to convince a jury that Margaret was responsible for Ron's death,

and therefore she shouldn't get anything from the estate. The case didn't get far, though, because Brandy's favorite thing happened. A confidential settlement. Oh, for fuck's sake, I should have known. Don't worry, I kind of know what happened. Okay, so some sources say she got $550K, 2020 says $600K, but everyone seems to agree that she owed her attorneys like $425,000, so she got basically

nothing. Meanwhile, everyone was convinced that Margaret had murdered Ron, and this scenario of her walking around free as a bird was deeply unsatisfying for anyone with a hankering for justice. But then, in the summer of 1996, those hankerins were satisfied. Some scuba divers were holding a little scuba school out at Lake Mead, and one of the divers noticed something strange at the bottom of the lake. Gurgling blood. Just a gurgle. It was a drain.

He's like, this isn't supposed to be here. It was a grocery bag filled with something. They opened the bag, and in it was another bag, and they opened that, and then it was another bag. And it was a real Russian nesting doll situation until they got to a T-shirt. Oh, a T-shirt. A T-shirt. That's the last thing I thought you were going to say. I thought it was going to be the gun.

The missing.22. The T-shirt was wrapped around a gun. It was a.22 caliber gun with a silencer. So the scuba divers were like, yikes, scoops! No. And they took the gun to the park ranger, who turned out to be a ghost, and then they brought it to the police, and the gun sat in storage until 1997. Wow.

And that's a 100% true story. Boink. Oh, I liked how you were too good for the jokes at first and now you're adding to it. No, I don't need you, Velma. So then, three years after Ron was murdered, one of the detectives working on this case was like, hmm, hmm, I never found a murder weapon for that case. Maybe I should see if the .22 that was found at the bottom of Lake Mead was the weapon that was used to kill Ron. So they got

that gun and asked the lab to do some testing, and the lab tied the gun to the bullets that were found in Ron's skull. And from there, investigators were like, wait a second, didn't Ron report a.22 missing around the time that he and Margaret separated? Clearly, Margaret stole the gun from him, held onto it for six years, and then murdered with him. And that's... And murdered with him. And murdered him with it. And that's what we call a slam dunk.

I don't think so. In your face, Brandi. Yes. I'm not feeling this. Why not? You said Margaret did it. Several pages back, you were like, Margaret, Margaret. It's all about Margaret.

Margaret is looking pretty sus, but I don't know. Why? I have questions. What's your question? I don't know yet. So that gun was enough to take this thing to a grand jury. They had the murder weapon and they had motive. They argued that Margaret was super nutso jealous.

She was very paranoid about Ron having an affair and divorcing her, which would mean that she would lose out on her lion's share of this estate. They even said that she'd wiretapped his office phone in an attempt to catch him having an affair. They even said that she'd wiretapped his office phone in an attempt to catch him having an affair. So yada, yada, yada. On April 18, 1997, Margaret was indicted for murder. And the police called Margaret's attorney and they said, hey, you know, we got this murder warrant for Margaret. She needs to turn herself in. And the attorney said, well, OK, but I don't know where she is. And with that, the world's biggest

record got the world's biggest scratch. Because investigators were like, do what now? What do you mean you don't know where she is? And the lawyer was like, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know where she is. What that lawyer did not know was that Margaret had gotten some ants in her pants about this whole murder investigation. And according to her, she was innocent and she was sick and tired of being called the black widow of Las Vegas. Everyone thought she was a murderer. She had no money. So she grabbed a couple wigs and she fled the country.

Yeah. She went to Guadalajara, Mexico, which is a beautiful city with fantastic architecture and, fun fact, birthplace of tequila and mariachi music. Oh. So 53-year-old Margaret, who was in big trouble for murder but otherwise had no criminal record, moved to Guadalajara and lived in an apartment with a bunch of other Americans. While she was there, she met a guy who was a bank robber, and get this, was also on the run. Margaret says he was not her boyfriend. He was just a companion, so calm down. But this bank robber, who was not her boyfriend, shut up.

She liked him, but she didn't like him. Like him. Okay? He taught her how to be on the run. He taught her to always have a bag packed, always have an ID, have an alias, mix up your look, etc. So Margaret did what she was told. She put on hats. She put on glasses.

She put on those glasses with the nose and mustache attached. She brought her mask glasses. So as not to draw attention to herself. Yeah, blend right in. And the whole time, she was on the run, she became a frequent flyer on one of the most important TV shows of our time, Brandi. America's Most Wanted.

Yes! In one of the segments about the Black Widow, Margaret Rudin, John Walsh warned viewers that she was a come-a-come-a-come-a-come-a-come-a-chameleon. She comes and goes. She comes and goes. She comes and goes. I believe the direct quote was, Margaret Rudin is a chameleon. She's been

a blonde, a brunette, and a redhead. That was very good. Thank you. Thank you. That was very good. He had such a distinct way of talking. For the record, Margaret says she's a Gemini. She just likes to mix it up. Okay.

Can relate. No, you don't mix it up. I don't at all. But I am a Gemini. Yeah, all right. All right. What's the deal with Geminis? Well, she said Gemini like we were all supposed to know.

Like, oh, yeah, okay. They're two-faced. You bitch. Oh, I knew it. I mean, that's the thing. Really? Yeah. The twin. Maybe someone being accused of being a murderer shouldn't be like, I knew it. I mean, that's the thing. Really? Yeah. The twin.

Maybe someone being accused of being a murderer shouldn't be like, I'm a Gemini. Maybe. At any rate, eventually Margaret wanted to go back to the United States. She had kids and grandkids and she had all the tequila she could stomach. She was puking on her front lawn constantly. Can you imagine, Brandi? No, I get the horror. But how could she get back to the United States without getting caught?

Well, she went up to one of her friends who lived in her building. He was a retired fireman from Boston, and his name was Joe Lundergan. And I know what you're thinking, but he was not her boyfriend. Never her boyfriend. He was needy. Ew. And she'd never been that desperate in her whole life. He was not her boyfriend. Never her boyfriend. He was needy. Ew. And she'd never been that desperate in her whole life.

She told him that she wanted to go back to the United States and he agreed to help her. So they went to the border and Joe pulled out his Boston Fireman ID badge and the guard was like, oh, okay, you two can go. Really? That's what she says. Oh, my gosh. I've been across the border many times. I don't remember it being that easy. Well, you're also not a Boston firefighter, so. That's true.

She described it as like, you know, it's kind of a fraternity, these police guys, these firefighter guys, you know. Yeah. Bro code is strong. That's right. You heard it here first on the podcast with two ladies. I consider us very bro-y women. Extremely bro-y. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. We're never- I just finished up a protein shake. I was going to say, we're never not wearing tank tops. Do bros still wear tank tops? Yeah, bro tanks. Okay. Bro tanks are in right now.

Are they? Well, yeah, you know, when it's the summer. All right. Sun's out, guns out. See, that seems dated as well. I'm worried that we're aging, bros. We probably are. I'm worried that we don't know what the kids are doing these days. Probably not cool to be a bro anymore.

No, definitely not. Yeah. Well, we grew up in a time with very strict gender expectations where bros were bros. And the hoes were hoes. Bros were bros and men were men. So it was easy as that. Jo went back to Boston.

Margaret went to Phoenix. And she got herself a room at the YMCA and a new name, Annette. And she got a job at the San Carlos Hotel, which has a whopping three stars on TripAdvisor, and the most recent review is titled, Save Your Money. Hmm. But it was a job, and Margaret seemed pretty good at it. But at the same time, freaking John Walsh just could not get off her dick. He kept featuring

her on the most important show of all time, America's Most Wanted. And of course, one of her co-workers from the hotel saw America's Most Wanted because they had excellent taste in television. And they were like, holy shit, that's Annette. So they called the tip line and the cops showed up at Margaret's door and they said, hey, someone thinks you're not who you say you are. And Margaret, who just the day before had gone out and gotten an Arizona I.D. under her new fake name, showed police her new I.D. And they ran it through the system and they were like, yep, story checks out. And they went on their merry way. And Margaret immediately called the limo service they used for the hotel and was like, yeah, I'd like to be picked up, please.

Oh my gosh. So the limo came and picked her up and she took the fuck off. And by the time the Arizona police realized what they'd done, all they could say was, ah, biscuits, because Margaret Rudin was long gone. We've all been there. That's right. When all we can say is, ah,. Because we've fudged the bucket. This time she was headed to Revere, Massachusetts,

home to the worst beach I've ever been to. Margaret went to Revere because her retired firefighter friend, Joe, who was just a friend and not a boyfriend, said he needed her help. He was having knee surgeries and hip surgeries, and he wanted Margaret to come take care of him. So she got a little place in Revere and wore her little wigs, not to be deceptive in any way, just her sense of style, you know. And she started dating a guy who lived the floor below her in her new building. And she was just living her life, wearing her wigs, going by fake names. But she got caught.

Because she went to the post office too often. How often was she going to the post office? Like, way too often. So, police got a tip that she was a frequent flyer at the local post office. Don't they post the fugitives at the post office? Yeah, don't go to the post office. What are you doing? I don't know.

So they went there with her picture, and they're like, have you seen this woman? And they were like, hell yeah, we've seen her. She comes in all the time. She lives right over there. So they rubbed their hands together, and they were like, excellent. And by this point, it was November 5th, 1999, and police surrounded Margaret's apartment building, and one of the officers went undercover as a Domino's pizza delivery man. What is with you and Domino's? Oh, no.

It comes up every time someone's a fugitive. What the hell? So the officer, who was holding empty pizza boxes full of lies, knocked on the door and said, pizza delivery. And Joe answered the door and they kaboom breezed past him and they caught Margaret hiding in the bathroom. And one of the officers asked her, are you Margaret Rudin? And she said, of course I am. You know, I am. And he said, you know what this is about? And she said, yeah, this is about Las Vegas.

They hand kept her and took her away. The black widow of Las Vegas had been captured at last. The fact that Margaret had been on the run looked really bad, but the case against her wasn't really that strong. Yeah, it's pretty weak. Yeah, so over the course of the next few months, the DA's office offered her five plea deals. And these were sweet deals, too. Some of them were for time served. For murder! What is she doing? She didn't take them? She said she was innocent. She hadn't killed her husband, and she didn't want to admit to something that she didn't do.

What do you think of that, Brandy? We've talked about this before, and I'd say it'd have to be pretty extreme circumstances for me to take a guilty plea on something I didn't do. But if you're talking about time served and, like, it doesn't look great for her. I think you take the fucking deal. But then you're admitting to killing someone. She goes to trial. She's getting way more than that. Right. They have enough.

Do they? I think they do. Let's find out. So around this time, she had two court-appointed attorneys, and this case was huge. It was getting major media coverage, and an attorney named Michael Amador came to her and said, hey, let me represent you.

I'll do a kick-ass job, and I'll do it for free. His confidence impressed Margaret, so she fired her court-appointed attorneys and hired Michael Amador. Then, on March 2, 2001, it was trial time. And this was one hell of a trial because it was nationally televised on a show called Open Court for Court TV. Fun fact, it was the first trial to be covered in its entirety on Court TV. Wow. In opening statements, the prosecution painted Margaret as a greedy woman who was after her husband's millions.

She was afraid he would divorce her, and she couldn't have that because she wanted his money. So she'd shot him in their bedroom using the gun she'd stolen from him years before, and she'd put him in her antique trunk, and she disposed of his body with help from someone. Yeah, from who? Pretty big hole there. You know what? I think you got a pretty big hole yourself. Then, defense attorney Michael Amador gave his opening statement. Defense attorney Michael Amador gave his opening statement. It was two and a half hours long.

And it was the strangest opening statement I've ever seen in my entire life. Did she look into this guy's job history at all? Was this like his first trial or? What? What? You're worried that he's an inexperienced weirdo? Yeah. Let me just read to you a little bit from the opening statement, okay? Okay.

By the way, this whole thing is available on YouTube. I had to turn it off. Okay. He said, I could be a wonderful, caring father, coaching soccer and basketball and helping kids with homework and doing all those things. What? What's wrong? Right off the bat, you got a problem with this?

I do. Why? We're in a fucking courtroom and this isn't about you, Michael Amador. Hello, do you know where you are, right, Esther? Got another quote for you. This is a great day for me. This is the culmination of a career. Okay, again, sir, this is not about you.

Right. Right. So this dude went on and on and on, rambling about himself. So, you know, I have a high tolerance for cringe. I was watching this. I couldn't anymore. Because you're just watching it and you're like, what's he gonna say now? Where is this going? Why is he

doing this to me? It got weirder by the minute and at one point one of the prosecutors turned to the other and whispered, get me a cigarette. This thing is over oh my gosh and the prosecutor wants you to know that he's not actually a smoker he was just making a hilarious joke about how this defense attorney had shat the bed on national television yeah the defense's opening statement was so weird that the judge was kind of like thrown for a loop. And so he said in court, and he looked flabbergasted. He goes, the purpose of an opening statement is just to indicate that what the evidence is going to tend to show

and not go into your personal beliefs and your passion and your soccer dad. I've never heard that in an opening statement in my life. Oh, my gosh. From there, the prosecution presented their case that Margaret shot Ron in their home and there were traces of Ron's blood spatter in the bedroom. But the defense was able to raise questions about whether that blood spatter was Ron's

or whether it was Peggy's. Because he never remodeled the house. So then the jury heard all about Peggy's suicide, which had taken place in that very same room where the prosecution alleged that Ron was murdered. And then the prosecution talked about Ron's missing gun and they talked about the trunk. And for that part, they called Bruce Honneback to the stand. And Bruce was an antiques dealer who showed up for his nationally televised court appearance for a murder trial in a white button-down shirt with a cream-colored zip-up sweatshirt and a single maroon stripe down the sleeve over the top.

No respect. I was shocked. Shocked, I tell you. I was like, what is that man wearing, a zip-up sweatshirt? To testify in a murder trial? I think you can wear whatever you want, Kristen. No, you can't! No, you can't!

Have some fucking respect! Wear just the button down. Well, yeah, it's kind of weird that he has the button down on. Yes, it is weird. Thank you. You're in court a lot. God damn. I was stunned.

I can tell. Bruce claimed that he sold Margaret the trunk that was later used to carry Ron's body in late spring, maybe early summer of 1994. Then the prosecution called Yehuda Sharon, the super hottie who Margaret swears she never hooked up with. The prosecution was certain that Yehuda had been involved in Ron's murder. They just knew that he'd helped dispose of Ron's body. So they offered him immunity in exchange for his testimony. But, and this is very weird to me they did not appear to know what that immunity would get them because when Yehuda got up on the stand he didn't have much to say he was just like yeah I wasn't involved I have no idea what happened to this guy thanks very much for the immunity I didn't do

anything goodbye by the way he was wearing a suit and he looked great. How strange that he didn't show up for court in a zip-up hoodie. So then Margaret's sister Donna testified for the prosecution. And Margaret and Donna were not friends. Never had been, never will be. Okay, side note. Both of them are very pretty. And they look a lot alike. But in an episode of Mugshots, Donna explained that people often and they look a lot alike but in an episode of mug shots donna explained

that people often say they look alike but then they always say that there's a difference in the eyes because margaret has those dead soulless murdering eyes and she has those nice kind not murdering eyes okay which i'm like all right no one said that to Donna. So Donna testified that the day after Ron went missing, Margaret told her, I talked to the police about Ron in the past tense. And Donna said, I hope that doesn't mean that you know something. And she said that Margaret responded to her, I don't give a shit. Donna also testified, I said, I thought you were going to divorce him. And she said, he's not in very good health. He can't even walk without being out of breath.

I think I'll wait. As the prosecution presented their case, Margaret got more and more worried. Her defense attorney's opening statement had been weird as fuck, and he was completely unprepared for the task at hand. This was her life on the line, and she didn't feel like he was taking it seriously. He was doing a terrible job. So about a week and a half into the trial, Margaret Rudin asked for a mistrial on the grounds of ineffective counsel. Yeah. asked for a mistrial on the grounds of ineffective counsel.

Yeah. And then, in a super unusual move, Michael Amador, her attorney, was like, yep, I've done a really bad job here. I said we were ready to go to trial before we were actually ready. I've kind of screwed the pooch. I would like to be withdrawn as the attorney of record for this case, please. Oh, my gosh. And the judge was like what he said do you know how much money has been spent on

this case thousands and thousands of dollars and now nine days into the case your client says by the way things aren't going my way give me a mistrial but the prosecution kind of agreed with Margaret. They told the judge on the record that the defense's performance had been so bad that they were concerned that even if they got a guilty verdict, the case would be overturned on the grounds of ineffective counsel. So Judge Joseph Bonaventure took the weekend to think it over and ultimately denied the motion for a mistrial. But he did understand that the defense was a shit show. So he essentially replaced Michael Amador with two other defense attorneys. And he also provided a few defense investigators to hurry the fuck up and do some actual work on the case.

Tom Pataro was one of the attorneys who took over for the defense team. But that was quite a job. I was going to say, here, just drop you right into this trial. Here's this load of shit. Good luck. Don't worry, we had a great opening argument about Michael being a soccer dad. Fuck. Tom later said that he was shocked by how little the lead attorney had done to prepare for the trial. He said that Michael hadn't bothered to retain expert witnesses, he hadn't bothered to interview several of the witnesses,

and while this trial was underway, Michael Amador was accused of leaking information and photos of Margaret to the National Enquirer. He was also accused of trying to write a book about the trial while the trial was going on. His administrative assistant later testified that she saw him trying to get movie rights to Margaret Rudin's story. Oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah. So Tom took over this dog and pony show and he did his best, but still, I mean, what can you do? Yeah. Judging from the looks of it, the defense hired some high school tech crew to recreate Margaret and Ron's master bedroom in the courtroom, complete with a fake brick wall a la Subway wallpaper from the 90s. Do you remember that stuff? So they brought in the bed.

This is such a weird move. I think they did it only because they knew they were being televised. Such a weird move. I think they did it only because they knew they were being televised. They brought in the bed and these dudes in suits all laid in it and tried to do demonstrations on it to show that the prosecution's theory was incorrect about Ron being murdered while he slept. But in the end, this theater production only just pissed off the judge. Yeah. The new defense did point out flaws in the murder investigation.

Ron's car had been found at the strip club, but investigators never interviewed anyone at the strip club. Like, was he there? Yeah. Wow. Did you see anything? Do you have surveillance cameras? Wow. The defense raised questions about other suspects who hadn't really come under any kind of scrutiny.

What about Ron's business dealings? Yeah, what about the mob? Yeah, what about the big property he was working on? What about the other people who are suddenly inheriting a lot more money now that Margaret was accused of murder? Yeah, the other beneficiaries. On April 25, 2001, the nine-week trial came to a close. It was one of the longest trials in Las Vegas history. So the jury went into deliberation, and according to Ron Vest, who was the foreman of the jury

and was wearing nothing but a vest at the time, this trial was a slam dunk with a stepladder. He thought Margaret was guilty for sure. He expected that when they went into deliberations, they'd talk for five seconds and he'd be home in time for dinner. But then, juror number 11 had to be a pain in his skunch. Ooh, we gotta hold out. We gotta hold out! The rest of the jury agreed that Margaret was guilty, but freaking juror number 11, Corrine Kovacs, was like, okay, okay, I know this looks bad, but there's no forensic evidence tying Margaret to this murder. And that means there's reasonable doubt. So they deliberated for six days and Corrine wouldn't budge. She said, no, there's not enough here for a guilty verdict.

So Tom Vest went to the judge and was like, hey, can you dismiss juror number 11? She's being a pain in the ass. And the judge was like, no, that's not how this works. Do we have to explain everything? If it's a hung jury, it's a hung jury. That's fine. But no, I'm not going to dismiss someone

who's disagreeing with you guys. Eventually, the jury came to an agreement. They found Margaret Rudin guilty. As the verdict was read, juror number 11 sobbed and she mouthed, I'm sorry to Margaret. Margaret Rudin was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole. So she went to prison, but she maintained her innocence. She filed an appeal based on ineffective counsel. And meanwhile, Corrine Kovacs, juror number 11, reached out to her. She apologized. She said, I should have stood up for you. Corrine isn't the only one who appears

to be living with some regret. The judge in Margaret Rudin's case has since said, in 42 years, that is the worst trial I ever had. Wow. Over the next several years, Margaret Case went through a fun place I like to call Appeal City. Come with me, won't you? Yes. To Appeal City. First stop, her appeal is denied. Then, in 2008, a judge decides that she does deserve a new trial based on the fact that her defense attorney was secretly two raccoons in a trench coat.

But then the Nevada Supreme Court reversed the decision. Then she tried to get an appeal through federal court, but that got dismissed. But wait, there's more. She appealed again, this time to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and three judge panel decided not unanimously to affirm the lower court's decision. But in that opinion, they were like, we kind of hate to do this because Margaret's defense attorney, quote, indisputably engaged in egregious professional misconduct during the course of her underlying criminal trial. Yeah. So she needs a new trial. Yeah. Duh. And a year later, they were like, you know what? It's opposite day. We'd like to withdraw that earlier opinion because Margaret is entitled to

a new trial because her attorney sucked so bad. And the state of Nevada was real pissed. So they appealed to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court was like, leave us alone. We're denying your petition. We've got bigger fish to fry, which was cute because they all happen to be at a fish fry. And of course, by this point, it's been a million years since Margaret was convicted. But her new attorney, Greg Mullinex, kept telling her, I really think if we get a new trial, you'll have your name cleared. And that's all she wanted. Here's why he was so confident. He says there's no evidence that the gun that was found at the bottom of that lake is the one that was used to kill Ron.

He also says there's no evidence that it was the one that Ron reported missing. Ooh. Which I want to know more about that. Yeah, I do too. They said they did ballistics tests. Okay. Anyway, he also wants to talk about that antique trunk. Remember the antique dealer who showed up in a zip-up sweatshirt to court?

How could we forget? He was on the cover of Vogue the following month. Well, it turns out that during that trial, which was being broadcast on TV, some dude was watching court TV and saw that testimony and was like, oh, my God, is that guy wearing a zip-up sweatshirt to testify in a court of law? And secondarily, he was like, also, that guy's testimony. He sold me a trunk. No, no.

But you're on the right track. He was like, I'm the one who sold him the trunk he mentioned in court. But that trunk was like big enough for a pair of roller skates. It wasn't big enough for a dead body. So that guy came forward with that information. But it was too late. The defense had already rested. Which is just bullshit to me.

Oh my gosh. So that's just some of the stuff that Margaret's attorney wants to present in a new trial. But like I said, so much time had passed. Appeal City takes a while to get through. And so on January 10th, 2020, Margaret Rudin was released from prison. She was 76 years old. She'd done her Oh, my gosh. Now she has great-grandchildren, she's living near Chicago, and she really wishes she'd never moved away from that area, obviously. And now all she wants is a chance to clear her name. By the way, that juror number 11 was there when Margaret got out. Wow. Margaret says she's optimistic her murder conviction will one day be tossed.

And that's the story of Margaret Rudin, the Black Widow of Las Vegas, question mark? Oh, my gosh. There is a big question mark. I know. What do you make of that? I think there's way too much reasonable doubt. Is it possible that she was involved in his death? Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I would really love to know more about. See, the funny thing is, so many people are so certain about this. She was on an episode of Snapped, you know, all those like evil women shows where it's like, I wonder what their take is. So obviously people feel pretty confident about this case. I, yeah, I think she could have done it. Yeah. Obviously not alone.

Yeah, no, she could not have done it alone. But I don't think they have enough on her. I don't either. I don't think she got a fair trial at all. Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh.

Ooh. You know what I think? I think it's high time that we took some questions from the discord. Ooh, let's do it. It is a fucking sauna. It is a sauna. So God,

I'm dying. Ooh, right off the top. It is a sauna. Oh, God. I'm dying. Ooh. Right off the top. Heart Pounder wants to know, did Brandy take out her lip ring? I did. Mm-hmm. I let the sore heal. Okay.

But the lip ring is back. I thought it was closed up. Turns out it was just a tindy. Mm-hmm. Got it back through. Turns out she's got a big old hole. Got a big old hole. That hole's going nowhere.

I am back to myself. Unity Gooch wants to know, what is BTK wearing when you think of him at night, Kristen? Oh, all black for sure. Uh-huh. For sure. He's not wearing like his dog catcher uniform? No. I usually, it is kind of a uniform look, but I also picture him with a duffel bag. Oh, yeah, for sure. Uh-huh. For sure. He's not wearing, like, his dog catcher uniform? No. I usually, it is kind of a uniform look, but I also picture him with a duffel bag.

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And does he have gloves? You know, I try not to think that far. Okay. Yeah. Really scary stuff. Mm-hmm.

Art Heist Out the Ass wants to know, have either of you ever been in a parade? And if so, what was the parade and why were you in it? Have you been in a parade? Yeah, I have. Have you? I have. You have? I sure have.

Wait, tell me everything. I didn't know you've been in a parade. I was in the Topeka St. Patrick's Day parade a few years ago. You were? Yeah. When I was a district manager, we had a float. My salons in Topeka were a very big deal. For the chain that I worked for, they were some of the biggest salons in Topeka were a very big deal they were very they were the are

some of the for the chain that I worked for they were some of the biggest salons in the entire company oh okay as far as like number of haircuts and stuff like that and so yeah so we did we were we were in the parade we had a little float um we handed out candy uh-huh did you relish your time on the float I didn't i did not ride on the float i walked behind and threw the candy did you enjoy it i wished i was on the floor did you smell like gasoline probably yeah um i can't remember the name maybe it was old shawnee days was there a paranoid? Paranoid. A parade. Yes.

There's always a parade with old Shawnee days. Yeah. When I was like in middle school, there was like, we had a little dance troupe. And so I, you know, put on my little outfit. Yeah. And I looked great out there. I bet you did. I was amazing. I rode a camel once at old Shawnee days.

It was amazing. Did it spin on you? No, not that I recall. You think you would not recall being spat upon? I think I remember that, yeah. Uh-huh, yeah. All right. Tall, hot blonde.

We could cut this one. Has either of you ever hated someone the other was dating? If so, did you say something or just pretend and hope they broke up? What's up, Brandy? You know, I think it's really interesting. Are you going to try to do a non-answer here? Yeah, I mean, I think you dated someone who I thought was super weird, and I wasn't going to tell you that while you were dating them.

And you just had to wait it out for several years. Yeah. That's all. That's all. Same. Right? Yeah. Several years of, huh, okay.

You have an asshole, right? She says he's great. I don't know. I think he's kind of a butthole i must be wrong oh seven layer salad wants to know what animal are you scared will kill you mine is a squirrel i think that's a valid concern mine's birds did you watch birds too much or what was that alfred hitchcock the birds the birds i thought your big fear was like going to australia and Did you watch Birds too much? Or what was that? Alfred Hitchcock? The Birds. The Birds. I thought your big fear was like going to Australia and getting. Okay.

Because everything in fucking Australia is trying to kill you. All the poisonous spiders are there. All the poisonous snakes are there. The Vegemite. The Vegemite will take you down. I swear. Okay. My house is like on a migration path. So two times a year, we get giant flocks of birds in my neighborhood.

And I am convinced that I'm going to get out of my car and go to walk in the house. And they're just going to dive bomb me. But yeah, I'm also afraid of everything in Australia. And spiders. And spiders. That's not really an animal okay fair but yeah i'm for sure scared the spiders gonna kill me are you afraid of any animals you think an animal's gonna kill you i mean is a snake an

animal yes a snake's an animal well snakes yeah also sharks i'm afraid of sharks. Okay, so we're afraid of a lot of things. I totally misunderstood this question. What? Caitlin asked, what's your favorite foundation? And I was like. Brandy. I don't. I don't know. Excuse my tits and makeup.

Come on. Yeah, exactly. She's asking about like drugstore or high end one. Yeah, what you got? Oh my gosh. Okay. So what I do is I use a tinted moisturizer BB cream. And I'm not that particular about that.

I'll use high-end. I'll use CoverGirl. I don't really care about that one. Yeah. And then on top of that, I use a powder. On top of that, I use a powder. Currently, I'm using Hashtag No Filter by NYX. Okay.

Okay. It really does feel like an Instagram filter for my face. Really? I mean, it looks very nice. Thank you. I am like literally the same way. So I have freckles and I don't want to look like I'm covering up my freckles. So I don't want to do a thick foundation.

So I do like a BB cream and I'm the same way. I really don't care about the BB cream. Yeah. At all. I just slap it on there and I go. Yeah. You know what I am into now? You know those little pimple patches?

Oh. That they go kind of invisible-ish and you can pop them on there? Yeah. Yeah. Real into it. Fan of those? Big fan. I'm going to try those out. You don't get pimples.

Occasionally I get a pimple. You're nothing like me. I occasionally get a pimple. I've got the Domino's pizza face. Stop it. You do not have a pizza face. Well, but I am 35 years old and I've got the Domino's pizza face. Stop it. You do not have a pizza face. Well, but I am 35 years old and I've got zits. I never thought that was possible.

Yeah. It happens. Obviously. Ooh, Jessica with a K wants to know waffles or pancakes? Oh, waffles. Waffles. Hell yeah. Same.

Ridges. Got to have the ridges. Oh, yeah, because then you get, okay. What? You get like the butter kind of pools in there a little bit. Oh, waffles. Waffles. Hell yeah. Same. Ridges. Gotta have the ridges. Oh, yeah, because then you get... Okay. What? You get, like, the butter kind of pools in there a little bit. Oh, I know. And then you put the... You put the syrup on it. And, man, when you hit that bite with the butter and the syrup and... Oh! It's like

angels singing. Mm-hmm. Ooh. Carlos the Serial Killer wants to know, do either of you experience sleep paralysis? No. Okay. Do you? No, I do not.

My sister Casey does. That sounds terrifying. Yes. Yeah. Is it exactly what it sounds like? Yes. It's like, so the way she experiences it, it's like you're like half in a dream, half awake, and you can't tell what's real and what's not.

Ugh. Yeah. So, and I think there's like different versions of it, half awake, and you can't tell what's real and what's not. Yeah. So, and I think there's like different versions of it, but that's the one she experiences. And like one time it was so bad. Okay. She had been playing Lego Harry Potter. Okay. It's a video game. And in the game, there were like these spiders that you were fighting or whatever.

She dreamt that those spiders were in her bedroom but she was like in this sleep paralysis and so she thought it was real and she thought a spider from the game was coming down to get her and so she had to like wake up my brother-in-law james but he wears like a whole like c-pap thing right so she had to like get him out of his deep sea diving like apparatus yeah and like get him up and to like get him out of his deep sea diving like apparatus. Yeah. And like get him up and then he like

gets out of it and they're like looking for this spider and then finally like she realizes Oh my gosh she was sleep paralysis. that there was

yeah there was no spider. That sounds terrifying. I think she might have narcolepsy. Really? Yeah. But okay since then she has been tested for sleep apnea, and she does have a CPAP now. So I think that that might have all been linked together.

But, yes, sleep paralysis can actually be a symptom of narcolepsy. Wow. Yeah. Did not know that. Yeah. So now do they both look like they're deep sea fishing? They do. Diving.

Not fishing. Deep sea diving. Yeah, I guess that would just be like rods. Split P says, my best friend growing up and I had the stupidest arguments, but at the time they were really serious to us. We laugh today. What are some of the most memorable arguments you guys have had? Have we had big funny ones? I mean, I'm sure we have, right?

Well, there was the time in my diary when you sat next to the boy who I had a crush on. I had no idea you had a fucking crush on. Yeah, but you had a crush on other boys, too. I had a crush on one other boy. And I only had one. Clearly, it still hurts us to this day. Oh, I think this is a great question. Shabam Shabam Double Whammy wants to know, Kristen, have you ever thought about writing a memoir?

Oh, God, who cares about that? I'd read your memoir. Well, thank you for mentions of yourself. No. read your memoir. Well, thank you for mentions of yourself. No! So I have thought about doing kind of funny David Sedaris style. Yeah! But my actual life is not interesting

enough for a memoir. I'd have to go kill somebody and then, you know. I'd have to go be like, hey, I know you're on trial for murder and this is a big case. I'll represent you for free. And then the open statement is me like, I could be a lot of things. I could be a soccer dad if I wanted to.

Jen the RN wants to know, if you were on death row, what would be your last meal? Okay. There is a meme about this. It's like a woman sitting in her cell and the guard is like, what do you want for your last meal? And she goes, I don't know. What do you want? That would be me.

That would be me. You are the worst. You are terrible. I'm terrible. You will never throw a suggestion out there. I hate it. I hate being responsible for picking food for other people. But you're such a picky eater.

I know. That's it. That's the thing. My taste palette is so small that I would rather just like, I'm sure there's something I can find at any restaurant that I'll eat. And then you blow up the toilet afterwards. So like, nobody wants you to like explode. You know, we'd rather just be like, okay, Brandy's going to choose, you know, we'll. No.

I don't want that pressure. It's so much better for you to explode. That one time you made me eat those lettuce wraps. Oh my gosh. I felt terrible. It was terrible. I felt awful because I knew the restaurant I was choosing was out of your comfort zone. And you were like, no, it's fine.

And so then you. I love lettuce wraps. Well, they don't love you. Brandy is the thing. Those lettuce wraps did not love me. And so you were just splattered all over the walls. Okay. So this is a dark question, but I want to answer it.

And maybe we'll cut it because I don't know if we should share. But Trix wants to know, what's the lowest point in your life and how did you overcome it? I've been through it this year and I'm looking for inspiration. Okay. Not the lowest point in my life, but I've talked to you all about this. I got on Prozac, the generic form of Prozac, six weeks ago just because my anxiety was really bad. I've probably always needed to be on anxiety medication. So I talked to my doctor. She was like, I think, you know, she gave me the quiz.

And it was like, hmm, off the charts. Great job with your anxiety. One of the few tests I've aced. But so she was like, yeah, let me try you on this generic Prozac. This is not a commercial for Prozac. Yeah. It is, however, a commercial for medication. Yeah.

Because I have been amazed at the difference it has made. Yeah. Like, I want to shout it from the rooftops, shout it into a microphone in my podcast. Yeah. Could you all go stand on a mountain and then press play? The funny thing is, like, I don't know. I had always been. I didn't want to admit that I had a big enough problem with anxiety.

And so I have needed it for a long time. But, like, I think it's just like this past year like things have been so fucking rough yeah that i was finally to a point where i was like you know what i need to do something extra here because this is not working yeah because a lot of the things they tell you to do for anxiety and stress like work out well i already do that and like you know people kind of act like well i'm going to you know i'm either going to do the holistic report approach you can like positivity yourself out of and like why not do all of it I guess is my question because the thing I have been amazed by with this medication is doing

all the things that you're supposed to do, like working out, like, you know, getting more sleep, all that stuff. For whatever reason, it's easier. Absolutely. Now that I'm medicated. And oh, my God, I'm just I'm so glad I did it. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. Yeah.

And so honestly, that's what I would say to people. If you're struggling. Yeah. And you've thought about medication. My God, like there's no need to suffer. There's really no need to suffer. Like bad things are going to happen, but you don't have to suffer through it. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, absolutely.

What about you? And you don't have to answer that question. No, no, no. I think it's fine i think um yeah i think that my my darkest time like i've talked about on this podcast yeah is when my whole life exploded in my face my marriage fell apart my life wasn't what i thought it was and like i leaned on my family and friends so much in that. And I know that not everybody has that.

And that was the thing that just like pulled me out of it and like an amazing support circle who helped me see that I was an amazing person. And yeah, I saw I my friends and my family helped me see myself completely differently than I'd ever seen myself before. Yeah. And that made a huge, a huge impact in my life. Like my whole life. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You thought you were a caterpillar, but you were a butterfly the whole time.

I was a butterfly the whole time! It's a real plot twist for you. When everyone was like, no, you're actually really great. Oh, okay. Tell me about this. Monster Baby wants to know, do you sleep with a top sheet or just a comforter? All right. All right.

Oh, why are you already shaking your head? I've got very strong opinions on this. I do too. I do too. Okay. Caruso household, here's what we do here. We don't fuck with the top sheet. We don't fuck with the top sheet. We don't fuck with the top sheet either.

Okay. It just ends up balled up at the bottom. I agree. I agree. So when my parents came to stay with us, they were like, Oh, knock, knock, knock. Excuse me? Where is the sheet? What has happened to the sheet? And I had to be like, Oh my God, did I throw those sheets? Because honestly, we just don't use them.

Luckily, I found them in a drawer somewhere, and those divas got their little sheets. Yeah. But no, I am all comforter all the way. All comforter all the way. Top sheet can fuck off. I'll make a cape out of that thing. I don't care.

No, fuck right off. It just gets in the way. It gets tangled up. It ends up in a ball at the bottom anyway. Yeah. No. And I make my bed every day. Yeah.

Okay. David makes our bed every day. But our bed is made every day. Yeah. Yeah. My God, he does the laundry. He makes the bed. That's the perfect man.

Do you wipe your own ass? Or what do you do? He sure do. Give it time. Give it time. Yeah. He sure do. Give it time.

Give it time. Yeah. David has like just enough OCD. Uh-huh. And it makes him like really nice to have around the house. You know what I was about to say? This is so awful. I was about to say he sounds like a dream man.

But then I realized I'm the same. I'm the same brand of like annoying like if I walk in the bedroom and the bed is not made according to my specifications I'm gonna have to zhuzh it up a little so might as well just leave it to me sweet cheeks that's right see that's the same thing I can make the bed

and I will make the bed well sure anyone can make a bed but then David's like smooth that out a little more. Notice you did a shit job on this. I'm not trying to criticize just saying. And he's like very methodical about it like when he gets like when he gets home from work he has like

checklist of things that he has to get done before he relaxes. Yeah. Yeah you've found me. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you've found me, Brandi. Yes. And a man, baby. Oh, my God. Abby wants to know,

have you seen the LGTC out-of-context Instagram? I will admit I run it and I'm low-key nervous you guys would judge me for the quotes I pick. Okay. We love it! We just love it! It is, well, what a douchebag I pick. Okay. We love it!

Love it! It is, well, what a douchebag of mine. It's super douchey, but we think it's hilarious. And obviously that's douchey because you're quoting us. Turns out we think we're really funny. We think we're hilarious, obviously. As we laugh at all our own jokes. No, we love it. You should check

it out if you're into this podcast. Well, if you've made it this far into this episode, you're into us, okay? Get off my dick. Yeah, find LGTC out of context on Instagram. I think that's what it's called. Hold on. Let me double check that. Yeah, LGTC out of context.

It's hilarious if I do say so myself. What did she think to say? Oh, my God. Unity Gooch wants to know, have you ever done any fad diets? Keto, juice cleanse, et cetera. Oh, my God. What? Several years ago.

What happened? I watched a little documentary on Netflix called Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead. Yep. It's the reason why everyone bought a juicer like five years ago. Yep. Yep. And I did a 40-day juice diet. Were you?

And okay, so you were just like the movie. You drank only fucking juice. Only for 40 days. For 40 days and the guy lost a hundred pounds in the documentary yes i lost 20 and was a fucking nightmare to deal with for 40 days i cannot imagine like literally i had to chew gum because your jaw just wants to chew stuff at a certain point. I was miserable. Well, that would be awful.

That would be absolutely awful. What kind of juices did you drink? I did all of the, like, everything had fucking celery and spinach and ginger. It's a nightmare. It's a real nightmare. Can you ever drink a juice again? No. The idea of the juice.

I can tell. I'm seeing on your face. When I think about how that juice tasted, my stomach literally goes, like, it like churns. Never again. 20 pounds. So not worth it. No. Are you kidding me?

No. So, okay. Years and years ago, I did the South Beach diet. I stuck to it for seven days, and then I started dreaming about cupcakes. So that ended. Yeah. I did keto a couple years ago, and I don't know. Keto made me feel weird.

Yeah. I felt like I couldn't work out yeah and then i started to read like oh yeah when you're in ketosis your breath starts to smell funny and that's normal and i was like i'm already feeling weird limiting my fruits yeah and my veggies a bit like i i don't feel like it's natural that yeah my breath smells like I ate out of skunk. Well, I don't. You know, like sometimes you just got to use your intuition. That's absolutely correct. But no, I've done more. Like, I'm not really a fad diet person.

Even though I just mentioned two of them that i have done uh yeah i have uh never again never will i do the juice thing again no i see fad diets and i'm like nope not falling for that bullshit again oh my god well you fell for it hard 40 days 40 days kristin you were like like Jesus wandering through the desert. Okay, legit. I was like, Jesus did it. I can do it too. What? You're just like Jesus, Brittany. I'm exactly like Jesus.

In every way. You know, Jesus had the first juicer. That's right. And he just juiced the day away. Oh, my God. Like, what a stupid thing to think of. Like, well, Jesus fucking did it. That is a really weird thing to think.

It is. I actually think I did it for 44 days. Oh my God. When I was just like, no. Okay, yeah. So what was the point that you were like, absolutely not? Like, I felt like when I was watching TV, every commercial was about food and it just made me angry. And so I was like, I have to stop.

Like, I'm not, this is not who I am as a person. What was your personality like? I think I was difficult to deal with. Oh, yeah, that would be, I can't imagine if all I had was like. I went to a baby shower where there were fucking nachos. There was a nacho bar. Oh, my God. And you were nacho bar. Oh my God. And you were like, oh no thanks, I've got celery juice.

There was a nacho bar on one side. No, and a chocolate fountain on the other. A candy bar on the other. No, no. And I was like, no thanks, I just drank my juice right before I came. I look amazing. Yeah. Fuck. I had to drink my juice right before I came. I look amazing. Fuck.

Sounds like hell. It's terrible. Like hell. I feel like we should just, you know, kind of live our lives. That's right. You know? That's right. What do you think?

We should do a Supreme Court induction? Yeah, let's do it. Let's. To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level. That's the Supreme Court. Today, we're going to be reading your names and your favorite cookie. Nicole Whitehair. Oatmeal Raisin Made with Raisinets.

Ooh. Oh, by the way, we're reading your favorite cookies. I already said that. Okay, well, take that back. Bleak. Samantha Marinich. Tim Tams. Melissa Walters. Snickerdoodle.

Paige Riley. Scottish Shortbread. Leilerdoodle. Paige Riley. Scottish Shortbread. Leilani Vasquez. Chocolate Chip. Chew Renity. Soft Pumpkin with White Chocolate Chips. Nicole Key. White Chocolate Cranberry.

Angelina. Edible, LOL. Jenna Gulati. Sugar Cookies. Chloe Hill. Snickerdoodle. Jamie Wolfe. Ooh, lemon raspberry sugar cookie.

Mm-hmm. Cut the raspberry. No. Perfection. Keep it. Clover Ryan. Chocolate chip. Kelly Mitchell.

White chocolate macadamia. Audrey Keene. Macaroon. Bailey Anderson. Shortbread cookies. Celestina Ketsia My Mom's Oatmeal Cookies Cindy Semenko

My Grandma's Chocolate Chip Cookies Meg Chunky Chocolate Chip Kate Sandgren Nutter Butters Welcome to the Supreme Court! Oh my god, I am glowing. It is a fucking sauna in here.

We gotta wrap this up. Thank you guys for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. Head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review.

And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of 2020 titled Five Weddings and a Murder,

an episode of Mugshots titled Rudin's Revenge, plus articles from newspapers.com. I got my info from an episode of Accident, Murder, or Suicide, and articles for Oxygen.com, the Jacksonville Daily News, and WNCT9 News. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.