Let's Go To Court! - 167: A Supposedly Sketchy Medical Examiner & the Murder of Mandy Stavik

Episode Date: March 31, 2021

Kay Sybers hated going to the doctor. According to her husband, Bill Sybers, Kay hated going to the doctor so much that she refused to get medical treatment for her ongoing chest pain. The morning of May 30,1991, Kay woke up in pain. Bill, who was a pathologist and medical examiner, attempted to draw blood from Kay’s arm so that he might figure out what was wrong. But he couldn’t get any blood. He then left for work, and Kay died later that morning. But how did she die, exactly? Had Bill really been trying to draw blood? Or had he injected her with a deadly poison?  Then Kristin tells us about a murder that haunted a small Washington town for nearly 30 years. Mandy Stavik was home from her freshman year of college for Thanksgiving break of 1989. She went for a five-mile jog with her dog, Kyra, as she often did, but she never came back. Mandy’s mom immediately panicked. She called everyone she knew. People searched and searched for Mandy. Three days later, a detective found Mandy’s body in the Nooksack River. It took decades to solve the crime.   And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: An episode of 48 Hours, titled, “Mandy Stavik: The Case No One Could Forget” An episode of 20/20, titled, “30 years searching”  “Here’s what we learned from the defense attorney on day one of the Bass Trial,” by the Bellingham Herald on YouTube “Here’s what we learned from the prosecuting attorney on day one of the Bass Trial,” by the Bellingham Herald on YouTube In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Dr. Bill Sybers, Florida doctor accused of murdering his wife” by Seamus McGraw, The Crime Library “Evidence Embalmed” by Jonathon King, The Sun Sentinel “Medical examiner: He didn’t kill wife, did botch autopsy” Associated Press, Ocala Star Banner “Facing retrial, state drops murder case” Associated Press, The Herald “TribuneFormer Bay medical examiner Dr. Sybers dies of lung cancer” by News Herald Staff, The Panama City News Herald YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the murder of Mandy Stavik. And I'll be talking about a

murder? Did you watch that dumb show again? Okay, okay, not from the show, but it sure could be covered on that show. You are on a kick, ma'am. I didn't even go looking for this. It came to me.

Yeah, you sound like a dirt bag. Oh, God. I didn't go looking. I just, you know, some lady just fell on my dick. That's exactly what I'm saying. A woman fell on my dick, and she died. I'm saying. Yeah. A woman fell on my dick and she died. Oh,

oh no. Oh, too far. Oh, okay, I took it too far. You did. You did.

all right. I always just take it right to the line. You stop just right in time. Yep. Classy is what people call me. Oh, do they?

They do. So many people. By the way, the jury's in. It turns out Brandy is the name of a hot girl. Wow. Who could have predicted? Who could have guessed?

Sorry to tell you, Brandy, you got the name of a hot lady. Okay. Glad to hear it. Brings me no pleasure to say that I was raped. Yeah, a lot of people waited on that. Yeah, because Brandy is a hot name. Brandy, don't play dumb. I'm not playing dumb.

You are playing dumb. I'm not. This is not an act. This is not like oh please compliment me. No. I legitimately disagree. You disagree that Brandy is a hot name. Yes.

I've already been here. I told you how I feel about it. I know but I felt like once everybody weighed in. I'd be like oh I've seen the lot. I told you how I feel about it. I know, but I felt like once everybody weighed in. I'd be like, oh, I've seen the lot. I've been baptized. No. It is a hot girl name.

Here's what I thought. I thought you would be like, okay, fine, I admit it. No. Clearly, you are continuing to lie. You know what else that was right about? Oh, no. What? Maintenance phase. Oh, my gosh. You were so right.

Okay, this is not an ad. I have talked about the podcast maintenance phase on this very podcast before. Also, in conversations with you, ma'am, and I've been like, it's a great podcast. You would enjoy it. And you were like, uh-huh. And in one ear, out the other. And then this bitch comes to my house today. What'd you say? I said, oh, hey, I've been listening to bait in his face and it's so fucking good.

It's so fucking good. 12 years after I originally made the recommendation. 12 years after I originally made the recommendation. For real. If you want like a subversive podcast about health and wellness and it's not like lose 10 pounds a day. Legitimately, guys. Okay. And this is silly because I know that you wouldn't do this. Like I know you wouldn't kind of mean like be like, hey, so there's this really cool weight loss podcast that you should listen to.

And it's really great. And you should check it out. Like, I know that you would never do that. But I was like, yeah, I don't think that's for me. When you were recommending it. I don't think a podcast about health and wellness is for you. It's totally for fucking me. It's so good. I told you.

I told you. So good. What do you like about it? Everything. No, they had, God, this is so silly. If we were smarter podcasters, we would have, like, contacted them for, like, a promo trade or something. Anyway, no, this is from the heart. This is completely organic and from the heart.

They did a recent episode about Weight Watchers and just the bullshit that is Weight Watchers. And I just loved it. So hardcore to that episode. I think, yes, I think this podcast should be required listening for any member of society. Are you talking about our podcast or their podcast? No! I'm in this phase! Damn it, Brandi!

And also listen to ours if you have time when you're done with theirs. Yeah, but I mean, I think a lot of people out in this world, they look at a food item and there are like three points they just know in their head. 100%. Yeah, yeah. Scarred for life. 100%, yes. Yep.

Mm-hmm. Anyway, should we do an actual ad? Yeah. All right. All right. You want to talk about a murder question mark? I feel like that's all I talk about with you anymore. It kind of is lately.

Mm-hmm. All right. Maybe I'll mix it up next week. No, no, no. I kind of like these. I'm always intrigued. I legitimately didn't really know until I was, into this case a little bit that it really stuck to my theme I've been on. So I really came across this organically.

Shout out. Sorry, I just, like, broke a corner of my nail here. And I'm going to just, it's just going to mess with me the whole. Oh, Jesus. You better now. Yes, I'm good. All right. OK.

Shout outs to Seamus McGraw. My good friend, which I'll get to it, but I have a bone to pick with him about this. Oh, your first fight with your friend here. OK. So he did an article for this for the crime library. And then Jonathan King. first time meeting him. He seems great. And he did a great piece for the Sun Sentinel.

Okay. Which should tell you that this takes place in Florida. Very good. Okay. This case is a bit of a doozy. Alright. It's not so much a whodunit as it is a was it done at all?

Okay. This is starting out cheesy as fuck. The facts are limited here because the investigation into this case was marred by rumors and speculation. Innuendo. From the moment it was launched. by rumors and speculation. Innuendo. From the moment it was launched. Oh, there's some innuendo. Okay. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Here is what we know for sure. Spoilers right off the bat. Kay Cybers died. Her husband, Dr. Bill Cybers, who happened to be the Bay County, Florida medical examiner. Oh, shit. Did some weird and unprofessional shit after she died. Are we talking gross shit?

No. Oh, okay. Okay. Well, no. Well, I mean, sometimes people are weird. Don't make that face. That's where your head goes. I'm sorry.

But yes. Yes. Yes. No. Do you remember the really, it's a terrible, creepy story. People called it the Corpse Bride. It was the, do you not know this story? It's not ringing bells so far. Okay, it was this creepy old guy.

He married this very young, beautiful woman, and she died, and he kept her corpse forever. And because people were fucked up, they were like, what a romantic story. And her whole family was like, no, he's a big creep. And anyway. Obviously. Yeah. So I'm sorry. That's where my mind went.

Okay. No, not that kind of weird stuff. Anyway. Additionally, he was having an extramarital affair about which he lied to the police. Okay. So? But? Is he a murderer?

Or did an overzealous prosecutor armed with junk science set out to prove a crime had occurred? You be the judge. All right. All right. Here we go. Here we go. I'm strapping in. The evening of May 29th, 1991 wasn't particularly notable for Bill and Kay Cybers.

They had gone out to dinner at a restaurant near their home, The Sealander, which I'm sorry to tell you is no longer around. In its place is a new restaurant called Sea Level, but it but it's spelled with the letter C, not the word C. Is it on the sign? Is it like tilted? Yeah. I don't believe so. That's a missed opportunity.

Anyway, they'd had a lovely evening. They'd had dinner. Kay had the prime rib. Bill had fish, specifically pompano, which I didn't even know was a thing. But anyway. I want to take a moment to applaud you for knowing the restaurant that they ate at. You know how much I love these details. I know you do.

Yeah. I get so sad when we don't know the restaurant they went to. Okay. I'm really getting a picture here. Uh-huh. They shared a couple bottles of Chardonnay. A couple bottles? A couple bottles.

Damn. They were popping bottles. Okay. Their server recalled that they had been jovial. Her word. Well, I bet so. A couple bottles for two people? Yeah. And she also recalled that Dr. Cybers left a big tip.

When the Cybers returned home from dinner around 1130 that night, Bill had gone straight to bed while Kay had stopped by their son Timothy's room. Timothy had just recently returned home from dinner around 1130 that night, Bill had gone straight to bed while Kay had stopped by their son Timothy's room. Timothy had just recently returned home from college and was getting ready to attend some kind of graduate program. He recalled that Kay had sat in his room for a few minutes that night and they'd reminisced about the good old days when he and his brother and sister were younger. Then his mom had gone to bed. Somewhere

around 4.30 a.m., Kay woke Bill up and said she was having pain in her chest and left arm. Bill told her they should go to the hospital, and Kay refused. According to Bill, this was not unusual. Kay had been having these chest pains on and off for more than a year. And each time she had them, Bill told her they should go to the doctor. And each time, Kay refused. Because Kay hated doctors. And here's why. What every article about this case would like you to know is that Kay Cybers was fat or mildly obese or overweight or corpulent, which is not a word I was familiar with.

No. Mostly. Oh, mostly. I think it's pretty rude how all of these articles described her that way. Because she was also like a great friend and an amazing mother. No, doesn't matter. Bullshit. Who cares?

Whose life had always revolved around her children. Do you see me yawning? But I also think it's kind of important in this instance because it makes it helps make sense wait you're saying they don't say she was fat in this context of how she felt about the medical system they just say that like at the jump the jump yeah she was overweight she was mildly obese okay she was corpulent just as a general descriptor that That sounds like a made up word. I agree. I looked it up. It means fat. All right.

So I think it is important in this instance because it helps make sense of her dislike of doctors. Yeah. Because in general, fat people are treated badly by doctors. Plain and simple. It's been proven that doctors are less likely to believe fat patients and more reluctant to order tests and that serious health conditions often go undiagnosed or misdiagnosed due to the

focus on a patient's weight. Right. Fat bias is a huge issue and for the record weight alone is not an indicator of health. I don't like you getting political here. Anyway, thank you for coming to my TED Talk. You really gave us no choice, ma'am.

So, yeah, Kay disliked going to the reasons I just explained, Kay also had the added layer of being married to a very prominent doctor in the community, which meant that like all the doctors that she could see were part of their social circle. And that felt humiliating to her. And she was too private of a person to allow someone she knew socially to ever examine her. Mm hmm. And so, yeah, when she had like a little issue, she'd tell her husband and he'd give her, you know. I do want us to pause also because there are people who are outside of our fucked up health

care system. Yeah. So when you get sick or when you need care, you've got to stay in network. Yeah. So she couldn't have just driven, you know, a long ways away. No. Yeah. Anyway. OK. Just, you know, cherry on top of that Sunday. Exactly. So, yeah, I want to have articles make this big point about how pretty weird that she was refusing to go to the doctor. But a lot of people don't want to go to the doctor. Exactly. I think it makes a lot of sense. I hate going to the doctor. Yeah. I hate going to the doctor, but a lot of people don't want to go to the doctor. Exactly. I think it makes a lot of sense.

I hate going to the doctor. Yeah, I hate going to the doctor, too. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're married to a doctor, aren't you just like, Hey, check this out. Can you look at this weird thing? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, he's a pathologist and, you know, whatever. But still. He went to med school. Exactly. As a result of this, though, there were no records that Kay had been dealing with medical issues at all, let alone any reports that she'd been having these chest pains. It was only her husband's word that this had been going on for like 18 months.

Oh, shit. Mm-hmm. When Kay ultimately died at the young age of 52, this would be a major point of contention. So it's early morning, May 30th, 1991, and Bill is attending

to Kay, who's complaining of chest pains. At around 5.30, he decided to take a blood sample from her. Oh, weird. This is apparently something that he did very regularly with family members when they weren't feeling well. So in addition to his position as medical examiner, he also owned a private pathology lab. Okay, well then it's not that weird.

It's not as weird, right? Yeah. So he'd take a blood sample, take it to the lab, run some tests. And, you know, he did it all the time. But aren't these the signs of a heart attack, though? Yes! So, I mean, okay, how do I know that? It's definitely the signs of a heart attack.

What? Okay, some would argue that these are the signs of a heart attack in a man and that the signs of a heart attack in a woman are very different. They often are like nausea and vomiting and yeah, they heart attacks present themselves differently. But these are the standard heart attack symptoms. Like everybody has seen in every movie. Thank you for imitating. You're welcome. I almost drove you to the hospital.

So this was something he did all the time. But on this particular morning, he couldn't get a sample. So my boy Seamus McGraw here. This is my problem with him in this article. Uh-oh. He said that he probably couldn't get a sample because her arm was so corpulent. That doesn't make sense. It makes no sense. But more likely,

what I believe in my very limited knowledge of blood draws is that it was likely a result of her alcohol consumption the night before. No, no, no. She had fat arms.

Like, she's probably dehydrated. No, no, Brandi. Which fat arms. She's probably dehydrated. No, no. Which means her veins are difficult to find. No, that's that's the hardest thing for blood banks is they can only take blood from skinny people. Also straight people. These are the facts. I don't make them up. That's right.

That's right. Either way, whether it was her fat arms. Which is a crime. It is a crime it is a crime particularly in florida where everyone has to go sleeveless that's right so he couldn't he couldn't get a blood sample he inserted a syringe into k's arm and was unable to pull any blood so god i'm gonna vomit so i get so queasy around blood so this is the worst case you've ever told. Okay, go on. So he put a cotton ball over the wound, the little puncture wound, and threw the syringe in the trash bin.

And he told Kay to get some rest. And kind of that was that. About 6.30 that morning, he left for work. And later he would deny this, but on his way to work from his car phone because it is 1991. Oh, and he's rich. Yeah. Because only the rich people had car phones. Yes.

He called his girlfriend. Mm-hmm. Which is problematic. In what way? Well, his wife is exhibiting signs of a heart attack and he tells her to go to sleep. And then he gets in his car and goes to work and calls his girlfriend. You know, not all doctors are smart. And he also makes a couple other calls.

He calls a partner and he calls his assistant. And he's at work for a couple of hours before he gets and he calls back because he goes to work at like 630 in the morning. Finally, like his assistant calls him and he's like, hey, I've been trying to call my house. No one's answering. Can you run by? Here's the key. Can you check on my wife and make sure that she's OK? She's not feeling well this morning.

I'm concerned because no one's answering the phone. And I'm knee deep in an autopsy right now. Like, I don't know. Yeah, he was. He was working. I really wish you hadn't done like a booty crawl move. As you said, knee deep in an autopsy gave me disgusting images. Sorry.

So his assistant, Dan Harris, and another guy, Bill Johnson, who also is another assistant in the lab, they take the key and they go to Bill Cyber's house. They arrive there at 9.54 a.m. And they found K. Cyber's in bed and unconscious. And they could not find a pulse. They started CPR. But Bill Johnson would later say like, so these guys are doctors. They are assistants to the medical examiner.

They're like, or they are like assistant medical examiners, not just assistants to the regional manager. And so they're like, Bill Johnson would later say, like, it was clear when they got there that Kay had been dead for two hours, probably. Yeah. They called an ambulance and the ambulance arrived just after 10 a.m. and a police officer followed, you know, right after. But. but the assistant medical examiners told the police officer he wasn't needed the the paramedics were like yes this looks like this is a death obviously great good good news the medical examiner is already here so you know i guess we'll see you later so because of that like no unattended death procedure was

followed so typically when an unattended death happens the medical examiner is called in photos are taken of the scene you know just in case yeah none of that was done because this is the medical examiner's house and the assistant medical examiners are already there. Yeah. So I guess you guys don't need us. And so the police left without taking any pictures. The paramedics left without delivering any assistance of any kind. Shit. At 10-11, so like five minutes after the paramedics came and left, Bill Johnson called Bill Cybers and he's like, we're at the house. I'm so sorry to tell you Kay is dead. And Bill Cybers reportedly said, what are you saying? And so Bill Johnson goes, she's dead. We've've been trying CPR but it's very clear she's gone do you want us to continue and Bill Cyber said no no and they're like what should we do and he's like well I don't I don't want to do an autopsy. And so Bill Johnson was like,

would you like me to contact the funeral home? Because, like, that's the next step after an autopsy. Then you release the body to the funeral home. And so Dr. Cybers says, yes, go ahead and release her body. So that's how Bill Johnson and Bill Cybers said this happens. Like, he's like, no, I don't want to do the autopsy. Sure. And she had very notably, like, to many people, Kay Cybers had said, I never want to be on Bill's table.

I never want an autopsy done. Oh, no. No, of course not. And so that's their version of it. All right. To investigators, prosecutors, maybe the conversation went more like, sorry, Bill, your wife has died. What should we do?

And Bill Cyber says, you know what? I don't want an autopsy. Just send her straight to the funeral home right now. Nobody think anything more of this. Okay. Okay. Okay. But even if he did say in a, you know, kind of angry voice, I don't want to do an autopsy. Yeah.

Yeah. It's your own wife. Yeah. And that's what he says. Like, yeah, I think I did say I don't want to do an autopsy, but I literally meant like, I do not want to complete an autopsy on my own wife. Yeah. And who could blame him?

Exactly. So because of this conversation that he has over the phone with Bill Johnson, Bill Johnson, who has the authority to do this as the assistant medical examiner, releases Kay Cyber's body to the funeral home. And like two hours later, she's embalmed okay sometime later that same day the florida department of law enforcement which is basically the state police okay um get a call from an anonymous tipster who says that Kay Cybers had died that day under suspicious circumstances and that her husband, this person had reason to believe that her husband was responsible and that he'd ordered her to be embalmed without undergoing an autopsy. To be embalmed without undergoing an autopsy. And that this tipster had reason to believe that Dr. Cybers was responsible for his wife's death.

And that this tipster also had reason to believe that he was having an extramarital affair. And so the police are like, what? Okay. And so they're like, get in their cars. Yeah. Drive over to the funeral home. And they're like, hold on. Wait, wait, wait.

We need to do an autopsy. You're too late. Yeah. And that's exactly what happened. They're like, I mean, we've already embalmed her. Yeah. And they're like, well, fuck. Who was the anonymous tipster? Okay.

I don't know. I don't know that it ever came out who the anonymous tipster was. Who's the assistant? You think it was? I'm full of shit. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

So I think assistants know everything. Oh, I agree. I think it has to come from somebody inside the department, right? Calls for coming from inside the house. Inside the house. Yeah. Already inside the house. Yeah.

I think it. Who else knows that information that the body was released without an autopsy? Who else would know that? Exactly. Yeah. All right. Well, I solved it. I mean, not the murder that everyone cares about, but this very minor mystery.

So the next day, an official investigation is launched and a bunch of agents show up at Bill Cyber's house. And they're like, stop making funeral arrangements right now. We've got an investigation to do. Well, I mean, you're too fucking late, dudes. I mean, you're just going to stop him from picking out the songs for the funeral. Right. Exactly. And so Bill Cyber's is like, OK, you mean, you're too fucking late, dudes. I mean, you're just going to stop him from picking out the songs for the funeral. Right, exactly. And so Bill Cybers is like, okay, you know, whatever. I'm willing, I'm happy to talk to you guys.

Like, what's the, what's, what's, what's, what's the dillio, dillio? Oh my God. So you're saying Bill was a really cool guy. He was super cool. And so Bill Cybers spoke to these agents for like 40 minutes. He talked about how like over the last 18 months, Kay had been complaining of these chest pains and he'd been telling her, you have to go to the doctor. You need to get this checked out. He also told these police officers that like a year earlier, he had taken a blood sample from his wife when she'd been complaining of these pains and he tested it and her glucose levels were like off the charts

and so he thought that she was likely diabetic and needed to see someone about that and she had refused he also told investigators that like listen like I have no life insurance on Kay I stand to gain nothing from her death

we've been married for I I think, like 20-some years. And then he denied that he'd been having an extramarital affair. Okay. As you would. Yeah. I agree. I mean, that's my first thought is like, okay, if I tell them they've already got the wrong idea. They already think something is up because, yeah, I probably fucked up by just having her sent to the funeral home and not having somebody else complete an autopsy.

It looks bad. So, yeah, I'm going to say, no, no no i wasn't having an affair at all but of course we know he was and as soon as the officers left his house that day after the 40 minute conversation he had with him he called his girlfriend and was like this doesn't look great. Here's what's going on. So investigators were like, I don't know. This seems pretty sus. Like, really? Like, this is the medical examiner.

Like, he knows the proper steps to take when there is an unattended death and he didn't follow them? Doesn't that look super suspicious? Plus, the tipster said he's having an affair. And so they decide they're going to start digging into him. So full on investigation begins into Dr. Cybers. And they learn that he was having an affair like for the last three and a half years with a woman who worked at the Bay Medical Center where he, you know, he did his, you know, medical examiner stuff. Mm-hmm. You know. Mm-hmm. This is me pantomiming an autopsy.

Wow. You didn't really look at what you were doing there. You were just chipping and chopping away. You were just chipping and chopping away. So they talked to this woman and she says that, yes, that they had had a sexual relationship for like three and a half years. They'd met like once a month at a hotel around the area and had sex and like that was it. And that affair had fizzled out like six months earlier. And so they're like, okay. So she's trickle-truth at them. This is not the mistress we are

looking for. Oh. And so they start talking to other people around the medical examiner's office, around the hospital. Uh-huh. And they find out that he was in another relationship. Good lord. With Judy Ray, he was in another relationship. Good Lord. With Judy Ray, who was a lab technician. This guy just can't keep it in his scrubs.

And so they're very nice. Thank you. Thank you. Very, very good. That's why I'm here. And so they look into Judy Ray. And Judy Ray is the mistress they're looking for. Judy Ray is the one he called at 630 that morning right before his wife died.

She's the one he called right after the investigators had left that day. And so they pull phone records and they're like, let's just see how involved Judy and Bill are. It turns out that in the 90 days before Kim died, Bill had called Judy's home or office more than 200 times. So they were very involved. Yeah, yeah. And so they went and they talked to Judy Ray and she said, we were just friends. Oh, my God. We're just really good friends.

Listen, Judy Ray. Oh my God. We're just really good friends. Listen, Judy Bray. Mm-hmm. And as this investigation continues, she later admits that once Kay had died, their relationship became sexual in nature. What, like two seconds later?

Right. Okay. Yeah. You know what? I already don't like her because she's got two first names. Judy Ray. It's greedy.

Pick one. So, strike one. I mean, actually, it says, like, strike five, but whatever. He's having an affair. He lied about it. Yeah. So they start looking into other stuff, and they're like, oh, turns out this guy is not like a nicey nice choir boy. He's got all kinds of stuff that's just been kind of being swept under the rug, including that he's been prescribing drugs for like his employees and his wife without ever examining them.

What kind of drugs? So it kind of runs the spectrum, like from diet pills to, yeah, like pain pills. Oh. Yeah. It's not good. Okay. It's not good. Also, like cough syrup.

Oh, see, and that's what I was like. Yeah. If it's an allergy pill, who gives a shit? There was like, I believe, a prescription for Valium for his wife. There was some cough syrup. There was a, yeah, a diet pill. There were some painkillers. One diet pill won't do it. I'll tell you that right now.

That's correct. So they talked to this employee who was getting prescriptions from him, and he said it was that he needed these diet pills to keep up with the workload. They were so busy in the pathology lab that he had asked the doctor. He was basically on speed. Yeah. Yeah. This is a mess. Oh, yeah. And so this launches a whole, like, separate investigation because, like, some of this stuff is, like, technically not against the law, but it's, like, against the professional regulations.

Mm-hmm. regulations. And so they do this investigation. They find out that he's also allowing the assistant medical examiners to do autopsies without him being present, which is, again, not against the law, but it's against policy. And so he ends up getting a formal complaint filed against him with the state's Department of Professional Regulation. And they fine him $3,000 for these prescriptions that he's written and for these unattended autopsies that he's allowed to happen, and he has to go to a 20-hour education course in medical record-keeping. Oh, God.

Lock me up instead! I know! Snooze fest. So they've uncovered that, but no evidence of murder so far. Yeah. So they keep looking and they keep looking. And it turns out that pretty much everybody they talked to that knew Dr. Cybers and Kay Cybers are like, yeah, it was very well known that she didn't like to go to the doctor. And, yeah, we knew she'd been having some health problems in the last year and a half.

And Bill told us about them and Kay told us about them. And he was urging her to go to the doctor and she just didn't want to go. But to investigators, they were like, was that actually happening? Or was he just telling people that was happening and that he was been planning this for 18 months. Why 18 months? I don't know. Okay. So they do like a secondary autopsy.

Well, I mean, right? Too late. It's too late. She's already been embalmed. Like. Yeah. And so they do this second autopsy because Bill is telling them like, yeah, I think she died of a heart attack. These are the things that she was doing.

And so they're like, all right, if she died of a heart attack, even if she's been embalmed, there should be signs that we can we can tell that that's what happened. And so they get this independent guy from Dade County to come in and do an autopsy. And he says, I don't see any signs that she died of heart disease or any kind of cardiac event. In his report, he put, this 52-year-old white female died suddenly and unexpectedly at home. A complete autopsy examination to include microscopic studies failed to reveal a convincing anatomical cause for death. Hmm. And then he went on to say, well, he ruled the cause of death as sudden unexpected death due to undetermined natural causes.

Okay. What? The investigators did not like that. Yeah. They were like, natural causes? How could you possibly say that? This body's already been embalmed. How can you draw that conclusion?

And so under pressure, he went back and he removed those two words, natural causes, from his official report. Which allowed an investigation to continue. Because if it had just been, she died of natural causes, that's it. There's nothing else more that they can do. Right. So it's been like 15 months by this point that they're investigating this. And there's's they've just come up against nothing and finally like the investigators are like here's our official report

if dr cybers is responsible for the death of k cybers no physical evidence can be found to substantiate this theory yeah and that's like it. Yeah. And at that point, the Panama City state attorney was like, that's it. There's no case to pursue here.

We need to move on. He said, an autopsy should have been immediately conducted in accordance with Florida statutes. Statutes?

Statutes. And statues. Statues of who? I want to know. Exactly. If it's these dead asshole who? I want to know. Exactly. If it's these dead asshole white guys, I am done. I am done. He went on to say, but failure to do so.

What do you think we should do about those statues? Is not a crime. Kristen, you know this is a debate. I do not want to have this. You don't have the nuts, do you? I don't have the nuts. Wow. Okay. Wow. Okay.

Fine. You Confederate sympathizer. Oh, no. So he said, yes, an autopsy should have been ordered. But failure to do so is not a crime. It's a judgment and error. An error and judgment? No, he says a judgment.

Oh, sorry. It was a judgment error is his direct quote. Jesus. Anyway, you know. It brings me so much joy to have corrected you twice in the last two sentences. This never happens. I'm always the one who messes it up. In your face.

So that was that. Like, sorry. Yeah, it looks like he did some weird shit, but it doesn't appear that a crime happened. it up in your face. So that was that. Like, sorry. Yeah. It looks like he did some weird shit, but it doesn't appear that a crime happened. And if it did, we certainly can't prove it. Yeah. But Harry Shorstein. What?

Harry Shorstein. Why would someone name their kid Harry? Why? Well, it's short for Harold. Yeah, I am aware. It's not like Peggy that you have to explain that comes from Margaret. I get where Harry comes from. Terrible.

Yeah. So he had joined the case in 1992. And by his own account, he had been consumed by it ever since. And he just wasn't so sure that it was as simple as the investigators wanted to say it was. He had come to believe that the steps Bill Cybers took leading up to Kay's death and immediately following it were not judgment errors or error in judgment or judgment in errors. Or error in judgment. Or judgment in errors. Or even that they were steps that he took to honor his wife's witch.

How many witches did she have? His wife's wishes. Were they good witches or bad witches? He believed that they were the calculated steps of a murderer. Okay. Maybe. Maybe they were. But what proof do we have? Exactly.

Zero is the answer. Yeah. So he theorized that the puncture wound in Kay's arm was not a failed attempt at drawing blood, but rather the injection site of a fatal poison. I mean, sure. It's possible. Sure. Yeah. Who would know better than a medical examiner and a pathologist how to poison his wife without

a trace? Okay, but wait. When he did that, he put the cotton ball over it. Yeah. Okay, so if you really poison someone, wouldn't you not cover it up? Wouldn't you do the— You wouldn't do it in the fucking arm. He would know where to put it so you'd never see the injection site.

That's what I'm saying. Yes. He'd go between the toes. He'd go in the hairline. He'd find— Okay, I'm about to— He would not do it in an obvious location in her fat arm. Right.

According to Seamus McGraw. That's the most important thing. So, okay, what you're telling me is that she was fat? That's what every article would like you to know, Kristen. Fact number one. Also, that she had smoked for years, but she had also stopped years earlier. So basically, she had it coming, is what they're saying. She had it coming.

Huh. Yeah. But this is just a theory of this guy, Harry. Like, he has to prove it. And obviously, that would be extremely difficult since the autopsy hadn't been done until after Kay had been embalmed. Years passed. Okay, we're done with it, guys. Drop it.

The case languished. Multiple special prosecutors were assigned to it. No, no. Is this the only white woman who died in Florida? Get over it. It's so weird that this guy. Sorry, not get over it, but you know what I mean. Yes, no. Is this the only white woman who died in Florida? Get over it. It's so weird that this guy. Sorry, not get over it, but you know what I mean. Yes, yes.

And so, like, every couple years, a new special prosecutor is assigned to the case so that they'd get, like, fresh eyes on it. But none of them felt that they had enough evidence to even say a crime had occurred. Right. By 1997, Harry Shorstein was like back in charge of the investigation. And somehow he was finally able to convince a grand jury to indict Dr. Bill Cybers, who by this time had retired. He'd married his mistress. Yeah. And he'd moved to Canada. That's suspicious. He got permission his mistress. Yeah. And he'd moved to Canada.

That's suspicious. He got permission to move to Canada. Oh, really? Yes. Because this investigation was still ongoing. He's like, I'm I would like to retire to Canada. Here is my address. This is where I'm going. And they were like, great. We'll look you up if we need you.

So who retires to Canada? Everyone retires to Florida. I guess Floridians. Floridians do it the opposite way. He's lived on a beach for years and he's just dumb with it. He literally moved to the top of a mountain like the Grinch. Wow. OK. OK. Wow. Okay. Okay.

So the indictment alleged that Cybers, who prosecutors claimed had spent months preparing friends and colleagues by describing in detail his wife's apparent heart problems so that no one would be suspicious. So this indictment alleged that he had injected her with some deadly chemical. But prosecutors didn't even know what chemical it was. But somehow a grand jury heard like that very weak circumstantial evidence and they were like, yes, indict him. OK, I just thought of something dumb we said earlier. What? Well, we were saying, you know, inject injected between the toes and the hairline but obviously if he's trying to get away with murdering her and trying to keep her calm like oh here i'm gonna help you i don't know because she also had a sleeping pill in her system like

like one sleeping pill so i think she could have okay okay i see what you mean yeah been asleep right but yeah i agree like if he's doing it while she's like awake complaining yeah he's Could have. Okay. Okay. I see what you mean. Yeah. Been asleep. Right. But yeah, I agree. Like if he's doing it while she's like awake complaining, yeah, he's going to have to be like, oh, here, let me take a. But yeah, if he's planning to murder somebody. Yeah. I still don't think it makes any sense. No, I agree.

Yeah. Yeah. So Harry Shorstein goes to work to try and figure out if they can pinpoint what this poison was that he just knows Dr. Cyber's injected into his wife. And so, early on in this investigation, someone had been like, what about potassium chloride? Like, that's something that's used in lethal injections. And, like, he could probably get his hands on it pretty easily. And it's really hard to find after like in a. Wow. In an autopsy.

It's nearly undetectable. So he kind of goes to work on this theory and he starts like tracking down experts who could specifically look to try and prove this. Not someone to like, hey, let's see if we can prove if she had something in his system. He looks specifically for an expert who can look at whatever samples they have and say, oh, yes, she died of potassium chloride poisoning. And so he finds like this like, oh, no. I don't know this guy who had like this very like untested procedure who he said he could look into like the tissue and be able it was like a brand new method of detecting toxic substances they just have to drop of it it was it was it was like this guy who

had completely like totally made up this new testing process. And he's like, yeah, this is going to tell you exactly if there's potassium chloride in her body. And don't you worry. This is a totally new process. But I believe, I swear, I double secret swear that it's legit. Do we get to hear his credentials? He was a forensic toxicologist from Pennsylvania. Okay. Do we get to hear his credentials or? He was a forensic toxicologist from Pennsylvania.

Okay. He was known for pioneering new methods of detecting and measuring toxic substances. Effectively or just. That's a great question. Or just coming up with new methods all the time. So he does find in the area between Kay's arm and her heart, he finds what he believes is a large amount, a buildup, if you will, of potassium chloride. And so. Wait, so they exhumed her body? No. No.

He did this just on like the test samples that they already had. That's convenient. Okay. Yeah. So he took, he took a sample. So during that autopsy, they had taken a sample from, again, this is going to get gross. It was a mix of blood and embalming fluid from one of the chambers of her heart and they had preserved that

for later testing. Okay. And so he was able to take that sample and then say that yes, between the vein in her arm

and her heart was an extremely large buildup. But this was a, he was using a very new process, Kristen. Mm-hmm.

And fucking Harry what's-his-face was like eating it all up. He's like, yes, and fucking Harry, what's his face, was like eating it all up. He's like, yes, I just knew it. I totally knew it. Let's go take this information to the judge and make sure that this is going to be allowed at trial. And the judge is like, I don't know,

man, like this looks really questionable. Yeah. And they're like, can we like look into some, you know, some credentials for this guy? There's no time, judge. Can we get somebody else to like try and back up these results? Because like nobody, this is an extremely novel way of testing. And also this technique is like untried in any other aspect.

And so they start like looking into this and they have a couple of other like independent labs try and match these results and it turns out they can't at all. Yeah. And so another pathologist looks into it and he's like, this is completely unreliable because after someone dies, blood vessels spontaneously burst, which then releases potassium chloride. Oh, my Lord. And so, yeah, she is going to have a lot of potassium chloride in her body. But it doesn't necessarily mean anything. No.

Oh, my God. It doesn't mean anything. And so then they're like, yeah, this sample's been sitting around for like six years by this point. It doesn't mean anything. And so then Harry Shorts, whatever his name is, is like, okay, fine. Let's dig up her body.

Let's get new samples. Oh my God, Harry, what's your deal? Still wouldn't have done anything because those samples, like those have just been sitting in the ground for six years. Right. Getting fresh samples.

And so a Florida court like allows it. They're like, yes, you could exhume her body. But she's been buried in Iowa, which is where she's from. And her family's like, hold the fucking phone. No, you can't exhume her. And so they file a motion to block her. Oh, so they didn't believe that her husband had killed her. No.

Oh, my God. Oh. No. Okay, this is the weirdest part of this to me is usually. The family, yes. It's like, yeah, there was something super sketchy about him, and you're totally right, and he totally killed her, and let's nail him to the wall. Right. No, they didn't believe.

Well, and I think that's also one of the reasons why, like, investigators don't give up on certain cases. Yeah, it's like we're doing this for the family. Yeah. But this is just a weird thing. There is one exception to that. What's that? Bill and Kay's son, Timothy, was there when her body was discovered. Yeah.

And like he was there in the initial stages of the investigation when the police were like, we think you did this and tell us where you were and tell us everything and whatever and he really battled with that and he actually died by suicide a couple years into this investigation and he talked to a friend on the phone immediately before he took his life and he said he couldn't live any longer thinking that his dad had killed his mom oh yeah that poor guy yeah but it seems that the rest of the family really believed that there was no foul play here yeah and they really believed that k never would want her body exhumed they she'd never want people to be continuing to poke and prod at it. Like, yeah. Yeah. If if Bill's getting away with murder, like. Let it happen, because this is not at all what Kay would have wanted.

Yeah. And their son, Bill Cybers Jr., talked to in court about this. And he was like, you know, we oppose the proposed exhumation of her body with every possible ounce of strength that we have. We are offended by the very notion and infuriated and frustrated. He continued and said, speaking for myself, I believe that my mother's body has been violated against her wishes. And I believe that her memory has been violated as well. And it's our greatest wish as a family. And this is my father's wish, most of all, that my mother be allowed to rest in peace and that my family is finally allowed to live in peace.

allowed to live in peace. So he gave this statement at like an appeals court hearing where like the Iowa was trying to block Florida from allowing this exhumation. And ultimately they did get it blocked. They were not allowed to exhume her body. Yeah. And so basically

Harry Shorts is like back at square one. He can't get new samples. He can't get new samples. He can't do new testing. Time to move on. Exactly. But no.

He was far from finished, Kristen. Does he have a hobby? Obviously not. Okay. Okay. What bothered Harry so much was the initial lie that Bill had told about the affair. No. No.

People are dishonest about affairs. Exactly. All the time. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. I agree. Well, it means. Yes, it means. Yes.

They are ashamed and embarrassed and don't want you to know that. Yes, it doesn't mean he murdered her. It could mean he murdered her. It could, like. Sure. Yeah. It could. It could.

Yeah. He was having an affair. He could have murdered her. Absolutely. It's not proof that he murdered her. No. So Harry Shorts is convinced that Kay was the victim of foul play and that this it's he's bothered further by the fact that following the like as the investigation goes on, Bill marries Judy and they like move in together and start a life together. And he's like, aha, I knew it.

They did this to be together. In an interview, Harry Shorts said, forget the science. Forget that for a moment. What we've always known is that we had a woman lying in bed with an injection mark, the explanation for which makes no sense. People had heard for 18 months prior to Kay's death that she had classic heart symptoms, pain down the left arm, shortness of breath, pain in the chest. She was mildly obese.

Wouldn't want to forget that. She had been a smoker. She had all these symptoms, you know, but Bill said he could never get her to go to the doctor and he couldn't call 911 that day because she wouldn't let me. He continued on to say that this notion was preposterous. He said, if your wife, whom you love, is having what you think is a heart attack, I don't care whether you're the world's leading cardiologist or a dummy who's never been to school. There are only two things you can do. Call 911 or take her to the emergency room.

But instead, it's 5 or 5.30 in the morning and you're sticking needles in your wife. You're that concerned. And what do you do? You just say, I'll see you later and go call your girlfriend? Yeah, it's bad. It is bad. Okay, what do you do? David has chest pain.

He's had it for a while. One day, you two wake up. He's got it for a while. One day you two wake up. He's got it again. What do you do? So here's the difficult thing. Because if I felt it was like the same thing that he'd been experiencing for a year and a half, I'd probably be like, yeah, you probably need to go to the doctor. But like I've been a broken record about that. So, yeah.

What am I going to do? Throw you over my shoulder and take you to the doctor? If I thought it was more serious, different than the other times that he'd experienced, I'd probably call 911. I'd call it against his will, whether he wanted it or not. Okay. What would you do? I don't know. So I've got this nagging feeling about this, that one of the factors here is sexism, but like the rare kind that hurts men.

Yeah. And I feel like. If it were a woman saying, I tried to tell my husband to go to the doctor. I told him to do this. He didn't do it. I feel like people would be more accepting of that. But because this is a man and specifically because he is a doctor, I think the people in this case do not understand how he couldn't have more control over his wife's choices. Yeah.

I agree. I don't know. I don't know. It's tough. Yeah. Like a Florida prime rib. That's right. So Harry Shorts is like, this guy was suspicious from the get-go.

He handled this super weird. And I know he's a murderer. You know what I need? I need that syringe, the instrument, the murder weapon. If I could get my hands on that syringe, I could just prove that he was a murderer. That thing's long gone. Exactly. That thing's long gone. Exactly. That thing's long gone.

But that's Harry Short's big problem because he thinks that he got rid of it in a super sus way. He just threw it in the trash and then the trash got taken out and it's at the landfill now. What kind of doctor would be that careless? Well, I mean, you put the cap back over the needle and that's just what you do, right? He should have known. He's a doctor. You put that in biomedical waste container. You put it in a sharps container.

You don't just throw that in the trash. Also, I would argue this happened in 1991. Like, I feel like we've probably come a long way with how you properly get rid of medical waste since then. Weren't we having like hypodermic needles wash up on the shores back then? I also think sometimes doctors are the most careless about this stuff. Exactly. They're the ones who smoke a lot.

Yes. I don't know. They've got stressful times. The thing that bothered Harry Short so much was that like they didn't, like he put it in the trash and then that trash was immediately taken to a dumpster. And he thought that was really weird.

But the Cybers, for where they live, they live directly on the beach. There was no trash collection at their house. So this was just the way that they disposed of trash. Just the way they did it. Like, when he went to work, he took the trash to the dumpster. Okay, well, then that's not weird at all. I don't think it's weird either. That's the way they've always done it.

Yes, they have no formal trash collection at their home. So, yeah, he takes it to the office and puts it in the dumpster. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, Harry. Come on, man. So Harry's just fully consumed with this case. Thank you.

You guys are missing out on hand gestures. And he's like, I just need to find another expert, another expert who can do some kind of testing and prove what I know to be true. My God, Harry. He's obsessed. Someone get this man a puzzle, like a 10,000 piece puzzle. So in 1999, he finds this guy, Dr. Kevin Ballard, who's the director of research development at National Medical Services, which is a laboratory in Pennsylvania. And he's like, we've got this new testing process. Stop me if you've heard about this already.

It's a really cool way. And you know what? I think that we can find exactly what you're looking for. And so this Dr. Kevin Ballard explains to Harry Shorts that he's got this really cool, novel, but largely untested technique. Oh, my God. But largely untested technique. Oh, my God. Where he can take a sample of tissue from K-Cyber.

So they've got that from the autopsy. They've got these old tissue samples. And he can look at that and he can tell you if there is any kind of poison accumulated in it. And you know what he found? Poison. Poison. That's right. All kinds of poison. Poison. Poison. That's right. All kinds of poison.

Poison coming out the yin-yang. Specifically, he found concentrations of the chemical cecinomoline. Oh, no. Cecinomoline. Not that one. That's right. so this chemical could only be produced through the disintegration of a paralyzing drug called succinylcholine there was no other explanation for this being in her tissue she had to have been poisoned she had to have been poisoned. She had to have been injected with this paralyzing drug

by Bill Cybers. It was the smoking gun he needed. Okay. So finally, in March of 2001, Oh my God. 10 years after Kay had died,

Bill Cybers went on trial for the murder of his wife. Oh, my God. The prosecution laid out their theory to the jury and they presented the medical testimony about how they finally found that poison byproduct in Kay's tissue. And they also brought this woman on the stand who said she was a friend of Judy Ray, now Judy Ray Cybers. said she was a friend of Judy Ray, now Judy Ray Cybers, and she had said that she and Bill Cybers had been talking about marriage well before Kay had died. Yeah.

Again, that's a shitty husband. That's not necessarily a murderer. I agree. I think a lot of people have affairs and they say, oh, I want to marry you. One day we'll be married. Wouldn't it be so great? Imagine what our future could be like. So much better than my current life.

Yeah. I mean, I've never had an affair personally, but I imagine there's a lot of that in it. It makes you do that weird voice. That's what makes it so sexy. do that weird voice that's what makes it so sexy so the prosecution believed that this woman's testimony this friend's testimony was like oh and there's your motive they were getting her out of the way so they could get married because look they got married they're married now well the plan could have been divorce, right? No, because then Bill Cypress would have to give up like, you know, half of his $6 million fortune.

Better to kill somebody. That's what I always say. That's right. And who better than a medical examiner? It's a compelling picture. Is it? Again, I feel like because he's a medical examiner, he should

have done a better job covering his tracks if he really did do this. I agree. Don't mean to critique you, murderers. Yeah. The defense really tried to challenge the forensic findings during the trial. They argued a lot about that testing process.

Well, yeah. They were like, this is brand new. This is completely untested. This has never been used before. How was that even allowed in court? And also, did you check out Dr. Ballard's lab because it's a shit show and like talk about contamination on top of contamination? You shouldn't believe any results that come out of that place. Ballard's lab because it's a shit show and like talk about contamination on top of contamination. You shouldn't believe any results that come out of that place. Yeah. I am shocked this was allowed in court.

I am too. I am too. You know, they say this is one of the problems with judges is judges are only equipped to make these kind of I mean, they're experts in the law. Yeah. They're not experts on whether this science is good. Exactly. Yeah, I think this was 100% junk science that was brought in. Well, yeah.

Otherwise, we'd be able to go back through all kinds of bodies. Yes. We'd just be going through bodies left and right. Yep. Let's take a guess as to how many people in this cemetery were poisoned. So the defense tried to tear this down a little bit more by bringing two of their own experts who said that they had evaluated the tissue taken from Kay's heart and lungs. And both of them independently gave the same result. That she had died of a result of an asthma attack that triggered heart failure whoa mm-hmm they said there were clear signs in her lungs wow that is how she had died

but like they've never been looking for a natural cause of death right well there's no fun in that yeah oh my god if this guy didn't get acquitted i will in his closing arguments sorry i was trying to think of something creative to do to you that wasn't gross or weird and i there's nothing oh there's stuff were you gonna draw a mustache on me i don't know inject you with something i don't know no you would never you could not handle that giving peanut insulin injections was the hardest thing i'm sure it was yes you just like squeamish over the word needle i know i know

okay back to the case back to the case. Back to the case. So defense lawyer John Daniel argued in his closing arguments that this case was riddled with reasonable doubt. Yes. He said, there's conflict after conflict after conflict. I'm asking you to see if there's a reasonable doubt. All it takes is one. See if there's a reasonable doubt.

All it takes is one. The jury deliberated for six hours. Oh, that's kind of short. Before they found Dr. Bill Cybers guilty. No! Yep. No! Brandy!

Mm-hmm. You dumb hoe! Nope. He was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. This is outrageous, and you're not a dumb hoe. Thank you. You're a smart hoe. Thank you.

I appreciate it. So from the moment that he was convicted. This is unreal. It's unreal. It's unreal. It's unreal. He got rid of his whole defense team, and he hired Nathan Dershowitz. Brother of Alan Dershowitz? What? What? Yep.

Wow. To launch his appeals case. I bet that guy doesn't have a chip on his shoulder. And Nathan Dershowitz went to fucking town tearing the prosecution's case apart. They were like, what's that new fucking science you brought in here? Absolutely not. That should not have been allowed in court. Also, that friend that you allowed to testify, everything she says is an admissible hearsay.

So get the fuck out of here with that. And his appeals worked. He got Dr. Cyber's conviction thrown out. The appellate court was like, oh, yeah. Yeah, this looks real, real bad. Oops, fudge stripes. Legitimately, his conviction was overturned in 2003. Oh, wow.

It never happens that fast. Yes. Oh. So this thing was a legit shit show. OK. OK. Yeah. And so.

Well, they should have never let that in. I know. So his convictions overturned. And in May of 2003, facing a new trial. Did he die? No, he took a deal. He pled down to manslaughter. And he said, I realized I could lose again. There's no way I could go back to prison. It was too horrible. By this point, he's in super bad health. He's battling lung cancer. He's had a whole lobe of his lungs removed. Yeah. Yeah. And so he's like, I couldn't risk losing again. So he just got time served. He got time served. Yeah. I would take that deal all day. I agree. I would take the same deal.

Yeah. I think it's especially a no brainer if you're already past your you're retired at this point. Yeah. You don't have to worry about trying to go out in the workforce. Mm hmm. Yeah. He went on to say like after he'd taken his deal and worry about trying to go out in the workforce and yeah he went on to say like after he'd taken his deal and he was free to go whatever he said the whole thing is preposterous if i wanted to cover something up i would have had her cremated yeah yeah yeah yeah and he said yeah i had an affair yes i lied about it yes she lied about it

but that doesn't make me a murderer no bill cybers died of lung cancer in April of 2014. Wow. And that's the story of a murder? No. I don't think it is. No, I don't think it is. I don't think it is. That is horrible.

Yeah. I think this guy was guilty of having an affair. Yeah. Guilty of making a bad call when his wife died and not having... I don't even think that, honestly. Yeah. I think... Okay, maybe a jerk thing to say. Because hindsight's 20-20 and everything.

But I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of that assistant medical examiner. Yeah. I would think that the call you would make would be more like, I'm so sorry. Your wife has passed away. Yeah. I understand you probably don't want to be the one to do this. Do you want me to make a call to someone else to see if we can?

That's on you. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit, don't you think? Yeah, I do. clinical side of me thinks that there's a possibility that Bill Cybers was having an affair and he knew there was a chance that his wife was having a heart attack that day. And he was like, I've told her to go to the doctor. She hasn't listened to me. If she dies, she dies.

Yeah. I think dies, she dies. Yeah. I think that's a possibility. It is. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. There's so many questions in this. I don't think he murdered his wife.

No, I don't think he did either. Yeah. I can't believe the jury found him guilty. I know. Yeah. I can't believe the jury found him guilty. I know. Yeah. Mm-mm-mm. Mm-mm-mm. You ready for this?

Dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun. Oh, you started differently in the song. Sorry. Oh, man. I'm sorry. My mom just sent me, like, five pictures of London climbing the stairs. Oh, can she come over and teach Dottie how to climb the stairs? Oh my gosh.

Is she looking all cute? She looks so cute. Okay, I'm ready for you to talk about murder. All right. Enough about your adorable baby. I know, she's getting so big. She's nine months now and she's crawling everywhere and standing. She's going to be walking before you know it.

What's her favorite food? Beets. How do you feel about that? I hate it and they smell terrible. And she doesn't like cake. What a freak. We gave her cake this week and she spit it out. I mean.

And did like this. Wouldn't it be great, though? Don't you ever think about, like, wouldn't it be great if I hated cake and only loved fruits and veggies? Yeah, what if I fucking hated cheese dip, but I loved edamame? Yeah!

You're right! But yeah, your baby is a freak. Congratulations. Thank you. Hey, and more cake for you. That's right. That was a nothing bunt cake. Oh, those are so good. They're so good.

She liked the icing. Well, sure. Do they have nothing bunt cakes elsewhere in the country? I think so. Okay. I mean, cutest name ever. Yeah. Delicious cakes.

Yes. Not sponsored. We just love cake. No, we just like cake. And we both hate beets. Okay. Yeah. I mean, cutest name ever. Yeah. Delicious Cakes. Yes. Not sponsored. We just love cake. No, we just like cake. And we both hate beets. That's right. Okay. Shout outs to an episode of 48 Hours called Mandy Stavik, The Case No One Could Forget.

And also an episode of 22, I'm sorry, 2020. Oh, the new show, 2220. From the future. I'm sorry, 2020. Oh, the new show, 2220. From the future. It's called 30 Years Searching, you smartass. Does this case stretch out over 30 years? You're a smart one. We're in Acme, Washington.

They make anvils there. Oh, God. Hilarious. Population 246. You knew I was going to make that joke. I could tell by the look on your face when you're like, oh, man. You know what? I thought you were going to make an acne joke.

That's what I was like ready to grimace at. But then you did kind of turn it around for me. Anyway, you're stepping all over my joke. I'm so sorry. Which is that a population of 246 is a mid-sized city, according to Norm. Acme is a gorgeous little town. And I would love to go there because in this episode of 48 Hours, they showed some B-roll from the town diner. And let me tell you, I saw one of those flat top grills with hash browns. Bacon.

And pork chops. No. What's that little kid say about bacon? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Do you know what I'm talking about, Curtis? Yes. Okay.

A very special episode of Wife Swap from like 15 years ago. Yeah. Do you, okay. Bacon is good for me. No, you're saying it in his dad's voice. He has, okay, for everyone who doesn't know what we're talking about, there was a very special episode of Wife Swap a million years ago. And in this episode, you know, they've got like the redneck family and then the mom who comes to live with them. I think she's like vegan or something. She's super health conscious.

And she goes in and she like brings in a trash can and she's like getting rid of all their junk food. And this little boy is just as mad as he can be. And the thing that sets him over the edge is when she throws away his bacon. And he goes, no, bacon is good for me. And then the dad comes in, and he sees that Joy has thrown away the bacon. And he goes, bacon? You're going to be going to the grocery store. And to this day, Norman and I always say, bacon.

Anyway, that's the end of the story. Very good. That's what people tune in for. That's right. They're like, I wonder if they'll talk about wife swap today. No one has. No one has the courage to talk about wife swap anymore. This is the bravest podcast.

Did you ever see that X-rated version of wife swap? What's the punchline, Kristen? Brandy, you should understand what the punchline is. Did you ever see the X-rated version of Wife Swap? Is that just porn? Yeah. Anyway. Thank you for explaining your joke to me.

We'll have to cut that. Acme is also home to a general store, mountains, barns, tractors, and everybody drink because one of the talking heads called Acme a town where people leave their doors unlocked. Do you think this is even real? No. Surely no place exists. No. Right? Yeah.

Okay. By the way, as a fun drinking game, please take a sip of something not even remotely strong. Every time I say that someone in this story went to Mount Baker Senior High School. Oh. I guarantee you by the end of this story, you will

need medical intervention. So as cute as Acme, Washington is, it's also home to a terrible crime that shook the town. It was the fall of 1989. Mandy Stavik was in her freshman year at Central Washington University, and she was home for Thanksgiving break. She was an aspiring pilot. In high school, she'd played basketball, she ran cross-country, she played the saxophone, she'd been a cheerleader, she'd excelled academically. I even cut one of her sports off. I said, track and field, who has time? But now I'm mentioning it now, so I've saved us no time.

She was also beautiful. Here's how beautiful she was. Okay, I'm'm ready Brandy, she made feathered bangs look good I swear to you, no one has ever looked good with feathered bangs She looked cute Okay That's how pretty, do you know how pretty you have to be? You would have to be gorgeous Yeah Yeah, alright

Someone out there is listening to this and they've've got feathered bangs, and we've really rocked their world today. We've changed it up. Okay. You think we're going to make them rethink their feathered bangs? Yeah, and it's going to be like the scene in She's All That where they take the glasses. Take off their glasses? Yeah.

They just unfeather the bangs, and boom. Oh, shit. She's been hot this whole time. On the day after Thanksgiving, Mandy went for a run with her German shepherd, Kira. Mandy had a route she always ran. It was five miles long and it took her down Strand Road all the way to the Nooksack River and back home. What? Nooksack River?

That's what I mean. I don't make the names up. I may mispronounce them, but I don't make them up. Kicked right in the nooksack. I mean, that is what it sounds like. I mean, that is what it sounds like. Her mom, Mary, normally went along with her. You know, Mary would ride a bike, Mandy would run, and their sweet old German shepherd would kind of do her best to trot along.

But on that particular day, because of the holiday, they had extra family at the house. And so Mary told Mandy, oh, I'm not going to go with you today. I'm just going to stay home. So Mandy and Kira took off down Strand Road, which is beautiful because of all the trees and bright green grass, but terrifying because it's a two-lane road with no sidewalk. And they just ran and ran. At one point, a man driving a pickup truck saw Mandy and Kira run by.

Mandy was like an eighth of a mile from her house. And after that, something happened. Two hours later, the family dog came home, but Mandy didn't. Oh, no. And immediately, Mary panicked. She called Mandy's boyfriend, she called friends, and pretty soon everyone was looking for Mandy. But they couldn't find her. Then, three days after she went missing, Detective Ron Peterson, who was the leader of the search team,

was in a boat headed down the Nooksack River when he spotted something pink. He got closer and discovered that the pink came from Mandy's running shoes. Mandy Stavik was floating dead in the river wearing only her shoes. Oh my gosh. Okay. Do you ever cry in these shows? All the time. Oh, really?

Yes. Oh, wow. Okay. I cried. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, wow. Okay. I cried. I cried at commercials. I must be the biggest bitch in the whole damn world. No, I don't think so.

You won't give me the title. Okay, so I never cry during these shows. But I did in this one. It took me totally by surprise. It was this episode of 48 Hours. The journalist is talking to Ron, who had led the search team and found Mandy's body. And the interviewer asked him, when you got her body, did you say anything to her?

And the guy goes, you could tell the question took him aback. And he said, wow, no one's ever asked me that question before. And keep in mind, like 30 years have passed. And he starts to tear up and he said, I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was something like, I've got you. And oh my gosh, I've got goosebumps just telling you about it. you. And oh my gosh, I've got goosebumps just telling you about it. Yes. But yeah, it's...

When the journalist asked that question, I was like, that's kind of a strange question. But then you think about it, and you probably would say something. I mean, there's this teenage girl who's clearly been brutalized, and you're the person to find her. You would probably say something.

Anyway, okay. Ugh. So it was only 1989, but Ron had just gone through some training with the FBI on this newfangled thing called DNA. And unlike your newfangled science, like this is actual real science. So he handled Mandy's body as carefully as he could with the aim of preserving any potential evidence. Yeah. And that paid off.

Because when they brought in Mandy's body, the medical examiner discovered semen in her body. Her body also held other clues as to what happened to her. She had scratches on her arms and legs. She had a wound to the back of her head. She died by drowning. So investigators developed a theory. There was an area of Mandy's running route that was heavily wooded. They figured that someone had been waiting there and that they had a vehicle nearby. They theorized that the person had some sort of weapon, maybe a gun, and that they used that weapon to scare Mandy into getting into the vehicle. From there, the attacker drove a few miles, sexually assaulted her, and after the assault, Mandy tried to get away. They think she ran for a bit.

And they believe this because of all the scratches on her arms and legs. Because in this area of Washington, there are blackberry bushes like everywhere and they have big thorns on them. It looked like Mandy had broken free from her attacker. And as she ran, the blackberry bushes scratched her arms and legs. And I was thinking about this, you know, obviously late November, Washington. They had to have known it came after the assault because I'm sure she was wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt when she ran, but she had these scratches all over her body. At some point, the attacker caught up with her, hit her over the head hard enough to knock her out,

and then he drowned her in the river. Mandy's rape and murder devastated her friends and family. Her mom said, you can't be strong through something like that. It just rips you to pieces. Nearly a thousand people attended her memorial service. Her high school basketball coach, who'd been like a father figure to her, gave her eulogy. And meanwhile, investigators got to work tracking down Mandy's killer. This was all anyone could talk about. So investigators got a ton of tips, and immediately

they zeroed in on this guy named David Suchi. He was a drender, but he wasn't a match either. About 30 men gave DNA samples, and none of them were matches. Years and years and years passed, and the case went cold. Twenty-five years later, there were no decent suspects in Mandy Stavik's murder. Wow. And over time, Mary became certain that her daughter's murder would just never be solved. Yeah, that would be terrible. Yeah.

The lead detective on the case hoped it would be solved by the time he retired. And then he just hoped that it would be solved before he died. But it didn't seem like there was a chance of that happening. Then something happened in June of 2013. Two moms were chilling at Birch Bay Waterslides. No. Birch Bay Waterslides, home to eight waterslides, a kiddie pool, a hot tub, a snack bar, which proudly serves Pepsi products, and, Brandi, a gift shop. Oh, all right.

Lost you to Pepsi. I know. You don't like the gift shop. You're roaming back in with the gift shop. You get like a waters slide magnet, you think? I bet you get a vial of all the water from... I don't want that. It's 95% pee.

Yeah. As you know. Yeah. What do you mean, as I know? Like, I'm peeing in pools all the time. Brandi, I recently heard a story from you. I wasn't in the pool. I know. But were you at a water park, or were you not? I was. I was indeed at a water park or were you not? I was. I was indeed at a water park.

So guilty as charged. The moms were sitting in the grass while their kids stood in line for the water slides with pee no doubt dribbling down their legs. Do you want me to keep going or do you want to tell the people or is that for the bonus episode only? That's for the bonus episode only. Okay. You want to know about me peeing at a water park. You got to pay. That's not the way to sell it. No.

Here's the way to sell it. You do it. Brandy is the only person on earth who's ever been caught peeing at a wire park. Every kid does it, you're the only one who was caught. And if you'd like to hear that story, it's available on Patreon at the $5 level in our most recent bonus episode. That is correct. Oh, God, such good advertisers.

Professionals. Oh, God, such good advertisers. Professionals. And one of the moms mentioned Mandy Stavik, the young woman who'd been murdered like 25 years earlier. And Heather Backstrom turned to Marilee Anderson. And even though the two women didn't know each other very well at all, Heather blurted out, I think I know who killed her. What?

And Marilee said, I do too. What? Yeah. What do you make of that? Well, that's fucking weird. Get to talking. Let's go. Okay.

Okay. Marilee said, it was Tim Bass. And Heather was like, whoa, I think it was Tim Bass, too. So here's the funny thing. Neither one of these women had evidence. They didn't really have any insider knowledge. Well, no, they had no insider knowledge about the crime. All they had were individual creepy interactions with Tim Bass.

Oh, my gosh. And Tim Bass just happened to be a former neighbor of Mandy Stavix. Oh, my gosh. So let's talk about Tim. Let's. Tim graduated from Mount Baker Senior High School. And back in the day, he had those big wire-rimmed glasses that were only popular with serial killers but are now popular with cool people, not just serial killers. It's very confusing. He also had dark hair that looked like it had been drawn onto his head with a Sharpie.

Also, he had no social skills, and everyone thought he was really weird. So Heather and Marilee started exchanging stories about Tim. Heather and Marilee started exchanging stories about Tim. Heather said that when she was 15 and she was a sophomore at Mount Baker Senior High School, she was at a softball game. It was the summer of 1989, a few months after Mandy was murdered. Heather and a bunch of friends got into a friend's truck and headed to the Dairy Queen because they were desperate for some hot eats and cool treats. We've all been there. We have.

I saw a commercial. Oh. Ugh. They have. Oh. Do you know what I'm about to say? Is it the rotisserie chicken bites? Yes.

They look disgusting. They look revolting. They look so gross. You're at Dairy Queen. Literally in my brain, I was like, what could you see at Dairy Queen that doesn't look good? That's the one. Yeah, looks disgusting. Okay, you're at a fucking Dairy Queen. Yeah.

You're getting the basket with the fries, with the bread. Who are you trying to fool? Yeah. Get the fried chicken strips. I'm going here to get my healthy rotisserie chicken. Who, me? Little old me? In a mini cone.

Just for a little treat. Yep. Yep. Gotta keep it tight. Gonna eat these slimy rotisserie chicken. It looks so gross. When the commercial

makes it look bad. Exactly. Like that's it photographed in its best light. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dairy Queen, if you're listening, stick to Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dairy queen, if you're listening. Yeah. Toss them. Stick to what you do. Yeah. Double up on the peanut buster parfaits. Uh-huh.

Cut the rotisserie chicken bites. Did I ever tell you about the time that I went into a dairy queen and they were out of ice cream? What? I should have called the police. You should have. White ladies call the police for much less. I call them up and tell them that. White ladies call the police for much less. I call them up

and tell them that. They're like, finally, an emergency. Okay. So, you know, they're headed to the DQ. Yeah. And Tim Bass,

who was like 22 at the time, got in the truck and sat next to 15-year-old Heather. I know. We're all cringing. Hate it. And he kept looking into her eyes.

No, no. Double hate it. Telling her her eyes were beautiful. Nope. Remember that creepy guy who came into the salon and said you had beautiful blinding eyes? People are so weird. Yeah, that has been the compliment that I get from the weirdest people, like, my whole

life. Yeah. I mean, you do have beautiful eyes. Thank you. But yeah, you're talking about like when the randos get to compliment. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody asked me if that was my real eye color.

Like when I was like 15. Oh, God. I was like, yeah. He's like, oh, gonna have to write that one down. What? I was like, what the fuck does that mean? Write it down where? Right.

In a murderer journal? Yeah. That's so strange. What a weird fucking thing to say. And I'm guessing this was a grown man saying it. It was a grown man, yes. Cool. Yeah.

Gonna have to write that one down. Okay. What exactly are we writing down here, sir? Right next to your phone number hot stuff. Oh, God! So, you know, he's doing the creepy guy thing. Yeah. Staring deeply into her

eyes with his serial killer glasses on. Yeah. And then he took a pen out of the cup holder and just started rubbing it along her knees. I know. No. The whole thing felt really weird. Yeah.

And Heather had obviously never forgotten it. And ever since then, she'd kind of been like, I think that guy's a big creepy murderer. A little bit of a leap, but I'm with her. Yeah. I also kind of wonder if there's more to the story. But, you know, you're like, people aren't entitled to my pain. Right. Yeah.

I'll tell you about the pen. Yeah. Marilee heard that story and was like, OK, I know that this isn't the creepy story Olympics, but hold my beer because I'm going for the gold. She told Heather that in July of 1991, she was at home with her infant son. Oh, God. This story gives me the fucking creeps. Okay.

Okay. Everybody, you know, do whatever you do to prepare for... Wrap yourself up. That's what I'm doing. I'm just kind of holding my tits together. It was late at night, and there was a knock at the door. And it was Tim Bass. She opened it?

I don't even know that it was late at night. I'm just like saying, I'm getting a vibe. It was raining out. There was a clap of thunder. And then, doo-doo-doo, come out. A bunch of bats flew by. And keep in mind, they had all gone to the same high school. I don't know about the same time, but anyway.

And it's a small town. So Tim Bass is there. 256 people, yeah. Midsize town. Huge town. And he asked if he could use the phone because he'd been hunting all day and he needed to call his wife. So Marilee was a little freaked out, but ladies be polite. And she got him the phone and he dialed and something

was wrong because he was supposedly dialing his own home phone number, but Marilee could clearly hear what came out of the receiver. And it was that thing that only old hot people will remember. And it was that thing that only old hot people will remember. Brandy, do you remember this? Dee-doo-dee. We're sorry. The number that you have dialed has been disconnected. Yes. You remember?

Mm-hmm. If you believe you've reached this message in error, hang up and try again. If you're under the age of 33. Yeah, probably. You never heard that. Go to the nearest hot old person and go, beep, whoop, beep. And they will immediately say, we're sorry. So, you know, Marilee heard that.

She's like, oh, boy. And then Tim walked through her kitchen into her bedroom and said a bunch of stuff that makes me want to crawl out of my skin. He said that he used to drive by her house and that he'd always been in love with her and that now he wanted to make love to her. And Marilee was like, get out. Get the fuck out. And Tim said no. Oh, shit. And Marilee was terrified, but she kept talking, and she kept trying to get the upper hand.

And she told him she'd call the police if he didn't leave. And eventually he left. Oh, my gosh. So Heather and Marilee were really struck by the fact that they'd both had these scary interactions with Tim Bass. Yeah. Here it was all these years later, and they'd not really told these stories to anyone because it's such a small town,

and they didn't know for sure. They just had these gut feelings. But they agreed that it was time to speak up. So Marilee called up Detective Ken Gates, another Mount Baker High School graduate. Excellent. And she told him, hey, I've got a gut feeling. My gut feeling is that Tim Bass killed Mandy Stavik.

Interestingly, despite the fact that Tim's family lived in one of just a handful of houses on Mandy's running route, none of the men in that family, Tim, his brother, his father, had ever been questioned. Wow. Right? I mean, what the hell? I mean, had they seen his glasses? It's like they hadn't even seen his glasses. It was so easy to catch the serial killers back in the day.

So, I think it was 48 hours that basically said the family was too well regarded to be under suspicion okay okay yeah all right by the way the house where the bass family lived i'm devastated to tell, just as charming as it could be. Was it? You want it to be a creepy house, but it's just not. No, it's painted like a lovely shade of red, had white trim. And even though there was a trampoline in the front yard, it didn't look trashy. Now, you tell me how that's possible.

I know. I know. It sounds impossible. If you saw this, you'd be like, what a cute place. Is that a trampoline there? That looks kind of nice. What a picturesque setting. I swear to you, Brandi.

I swear. I'm having trouble believing it. I don't blame you. Okay. Listen. Listen. What? I started to veer towards the exit ramp when you said it was painted red.

And then- Well, like was painted red. And then when you said there was a trampoline, I like floored it off the exit ramp. No, Brandi, you got a picture. I can't. It's a gorgeous setting. Lots of acreage. Everything's green. It's Washington.

So there's just plenty of rain. Everything is hydrated to the max. And the house is kind of like, like you know it's that barn door red yeah i know what you're saying i don't think you do and i'm telling you the trampoline looked great in the front yard chris did the only reason i mention it brandy is because i have never in my life looked at a house that had a trampoline in the front yard and thought, that's great. Good choice. All right.

Listen, we're not judging anybody with a trampoline in the front yard. We are. We're just saying it doesn't look good. Live your life. Bounce away. Anyway. Listen. What?

Here's the bottom line for me. Oh, you got the bottom line? I do. Let's hear it. Aside from the front yard not being the appropriate place for the trampoline, I also don't want to be jumping on a trampoline where anybody's just cruising by. In a town with 200 people in it, how often do you think people are cruising by? I guess that's a fair point.

Yeah, exactly. Which is all the more reason why they should have questioned these three dudes who lived in this house. Don't mean to criticize, but I mean, did it have to go cold for 25 years? Right. Anyway. Do you have something against a red house? I'm having trouble picturing it as being cute and not just like a big red eyesore. Hmm.

Haters, haters everywhere. everywhere. So cold case detectives began looking into this hunch and they discovered that these days, 25 years after Mandy Stavik's murder, Tim Bass was just living a normal life. He was married. He had three children. He lived in a nearby community and he drove a delivery truck for a bakery. He didn't have a criminal record. He just did his job and came home smelling yeasty. What kind of glasses was he wearing these days? You know, I want to say either he got rid of the glasses, which doesn't seem likely,

because he doesn't seem like a contact lens wearing man, or he just got ones that I was like, okay, I make no note of them. Just load them into the surroundings. Like a trampoline in front of a house. Yeah. These days, Tim wore his hair a little shaggy so that when he was standing, you couldn't really see that he'd gone completely bald on the top of his head and that his baldness pattern was in the shape of an overturned vase.

But like I said, you couldn't see that spot when he was standing. So that was a secret between Tim, his hairstylist, and literally anyone who saw him in a seated position. I've never seen a baldness pattern. It literally, okay, so, you know, picture, you know, we got the dome and then it just came straight out, you know, that's like the neck of the vase. But he still kept kind of some bang stuff up here. So it was really quite a surprise

when you caught him. Well, that is an alarming. That's not your typical male pattern baldness, I'll tell you that. Pretty unique fella. Yeah. As the ladies at the water park discussed. Oh, no. Let me tell you another thing. Oh, bone, I have to pick with 48 Hours, the show that made me cry.

The one thing I didn't like was they really in the show were like, can you believe that this all got reignited by two moms at a water park? Fucking moms. Moms? What do moms know? I'm just kind of like, I don't know, man. Somebody raped and murdered a woman. I would assume that the women in the community might be the first to know if someone's creepy.

Okay. What? What? Someone was raped and murdered in a town of 250-something people. They couldn't talk to all 127 men? Well, and I will say, I'm sure it's one of those deals where, like, we've got this community here, this community. But, yeah, I mean, there's not that many people. Yeah.

In 25 years? Mm-hmm. They couldn't just... You know what I bet it was? It couldn't be anyone from around here. We're all so great. It's got to be some passerby. Yeah.

Yeah. By the way, let's all not look at Tim. Yeah. Being a big creep. Serial killer glasses. Mm-hmm. Were you trying to show me your today's? No, I had an itch.

An itch on my neck. Okay, okay. Do you think my titties are way up here? I don't know how high they are. I don't make any guesses. So investigators went to Tim's. Is a nipple going to pop out way up here? That would be thrilling.

That would be thrilling? Can you imagine if I was scratching my neck and all of a sudden you saw a nipple? I'd be like, what kind of contraption do you have under there that your nipples are popped out? And you know what I'd say? Very high nipples. Jealous. Jealous. Jealous.

It's part of my anti-aging routine. I shove my tits up to my earlobes and I attach them. I'm not going to tell you how I do it because that's part of my new invention. That's my get-rich-quick scheme. I'm going to retire by the time I'm 38 with this. I figured it out. Okay. You have pierced nipples.

Right. Sure. Big old hoops in them. Sure. You take some fishing line. Mm-hmm. Tie it around that. And then tie that fishing loop.

Yeah. Right onto your hoop earring. Uh-huh. Just nipples all the way around the earring. You pull it taut. Kind of like a pulley system earring. Uh-huh. Just nipples. You pull a tot. Kind of like a pulling system. Yep. Sure.

Sure. Yeah. You know, I think this is a great idea that we've come up with. People will see that and they'll be like, wow, she is perky. Her perkiness seems to defy the laws of gravity. Is that blood spilling through her shirt? I don't know. All I can think about is how perky she is.

So investigators went to Tim's house and asked him about Mandy. And Tim was like Mariah Carey being asked about J-Lo. He was like, I don't know her. Never heard of her. Did you ever see that clip? Mariah, is it not enough to be an amazing singer and beautiful? Nope. You don't have to be like that, Mariah. You know, she says she never wears tennis shoes.

She doesn't even own tennis shoes. She wears high heels all the time. Bullshit. But you know what? I've got a bone to pick with J-Lo. She said that her skin secret is just olive oil and that she's never done Botox. Yeah, we've talked about this on the podcast before. I have to discuss it again.

Don't you lie to me, J-Lo. We've been through too much. That's right. She and A-Rod have not called off their wedding. They're working through a few things, just for the record. Tell me something I don't know. You know, okay, when that news broke, I thought, it would fucking suck to be famous enough that when you had something as painful as a broken engagement or a breakup, like, yeah, all of a sudden everyone knows and they get notifications on their phone.

Yes. Yeah. That'd be terrible. I mean, unless you were like a crazy narcissist, I guess then it'd be great. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. And also you'd have like the millions of dollars.

You'd just dry those tears with some olive oil and $100 bills. Did you know that Lizzo did like a little. So this is similar but different. Lizzo posted this picture of her like in a bikini. And someone was like, oh, my God, how do you deal with being obese? Oh, my God, shut up. So she posted this response video. She posted this response video. And she was like, it's really tough waking up every day and walking through my obese house and looking at my obese bank account.

It was the best video. Worry about yourself. Oh, my God. People are ridiculous. People are ridiculous. So, you know, investigators are asking Tim about Mandy. And he was like, oh, hmm. And he legit looked up at the ceiling. Mandy, Mandy, Mandy, hmm.

He was like, you know, she came and she gave without taking. Oh, what stupid song is this? Is that that Barry Manilow song? So he's trying to act like he does not remember. I'm sorry. At the very least, you live in the town where the fucking unsolved crime happened. You know who fucking Mandy is. Exactly.

So he says, hmm, Mandy, Mandy. She was the one who was found in the river. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm so glad who was found in the river. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm so glad you're able to... Piece that together. So then they were like, hey, Tim, could we have a DNA sample? And Tim was like, no, no.

I don't want to do that. I watched those crime shows. I've seen how many people go to prison because they've given their DNA. Only when they've committed a crime. And at this point, investigators were kind of creaming their jeans because surely this meant that Tim Bass was their guy. But they also kind of weren't creaming their jeans because how were they going to get that DNA sample? Their jeans were just so confused. It was like they were creamed one second and then completely dried up the next.

More of a moist situation. I'm sorry. I'm just presenting the facts. Don't shoot the messenger. So they were like, okay, somehow we have to get this guy's DNA. So they called up the bakery that Tim worked for. And they talked to Tim's boss, Kim Wagner. And they were super vague and super low-key.

They were like, hey, hey, we're working on a case. We'd like to get some DNA from one of your employees, you know, maybe a cigarette butt. I don't know, whatever, super casual, I don't even care. I'm breezy. And Kim was like, absolutely not. Really? Yeah. Oh.

Yeah. What would you do in this situation? Fuck yeah. I'd be like, the FBI's fucking calling you. They want DNA. It's not the FBI. Whatever. The police are calling. It's the FBI's fucking calling and they want DNA. It's not the FBI. Whatever, the police are calling.

It's the local police. Whatever, they want DNA. The police have asked me to help them with an investigation. I've been deputized. You'd put this on Facebook. And then they'd be like, Brandi, you just blew our entire investigation. I'm coming to work in a police uniform! Nothing

to see here! You wouldn't even know how to fire a gun, but for some reason you'd have one just in case shit got real! I'd tell him no. You would? Yeah. Yeah.

Get a court order. Okay. I'm a hard ass for the law. You're over there bending over for the police. Don't wear a sweatshirt

in a court of law. I've heard, Kristen. Yeah. People have come for me on that and I stand firm. As firm as that man's poor nipples. You're going to testify in a court of law? Wear your Sunday best.

Damn it. First of all, did you say I come hard for the law? Yeah, I was about to make some more gross jokes, but then you just weren't even going down that train. Yeah, I think I would take some pleasure and be like, no. Oh, I'm the complete opposite. I'm officially a police officer now, guys. And I've got work to do. Well, Kim felt differently.

She referred them to HR. And then HR gave them the boom, boom, double shutdown. So that was it. Investigators have been shut down. Boom, boom, boom, if you will. So what, they just have to do it surreptitiously, right? Sure. Like, look for him to throw away a Kleenex.

Right. I can't even think about that. You're not even cut out for this police work. I can't even think about that. Yeah, that was the part that was the job they gave me. A murderer just pong, pong. Yeah, and you're like, I'm sorry, I can't. I can't handle it.

Here is my uniform. It's like later that same day, you have it nicely folded. You're like, I hate that it's come to this, boys. I never thought I'd see the day that I have to turn in my uniform. Brandy, we didn't give you a uniform. I bought this at Party City with my own money. I was going to ask to be reimbursed, but I won't now. I brought shame to the force.

And I deserve to wear the blue. Oh, my God. Okay, people are going to hate that I say this. Okay, no, I won't. So then one day, you know, Kim's told them no. HR's told them no. So then one day, you know, Kim's told them no. HR's told them no.

But then one day, a bunch of bakery employees were hanging out at a local bar, and they were talking about how freaking weird their co-worker Tim Bass was. Oh, my gosh. And, yeah, Tim was weird. He had a terrible temper. You never knew what you were going to get with him. He was total loose cannon. He was also super arrogant, but for, like, no apparent reason, loved people like that. Yeah.

And he had a real problem with women. Ooh. Here's a fun example. Even though Kim was his boss, Tim never called her by her name. Only woman. No! What? Yep. Yep. No No! What? Yep.

Yep. No, that's not good. I hate it. I hate it. Yep. So they're all sitting around the bar talking about how Tim Bass was a freaking weirdo. And one of them said, you know, I never realized that Tim grew up on Strand Road. You know, Mandy Stavik was

taken off Strand Road. You know, Mandy Stavik was taken off Strand Road. And Kim, who is a sharp cookie, despite the fact that she sells soft cookies, said to herself, holy shit, that's why the police wanted DNA? This changes everything. Because Kim had been 19 when Mandy was killed, and she remembered how terrifying it had been. She said Mandy's murder was the first time in her life that she felt unsafe, and she'd always felt terrible that Mandy's mother never got an answer as to who killed her daughter. Wow.

I'm loving Kim. So Kim didn't say anything to anybody, but she started watching Tim more closely. She's like, okay, okay, let's see what's going on here. Everyone at the bakery wore a uniform. And she realized that even though everyone else turned in their uniforms to be washed, he didn't. And just like all the other delivery people, Tim had a trash can in his truck

but at the end of the day his was always empty that seemed odd yeah seems like he's maybe taking steps so that no one could surreptitiously take his DNA say surreptitiously

one more time. Every time you say that word, you sound like you had two vodka tonics. Surreptitiously. Surreptitiously. I'm going to surreptitiously observe you. You're not going to know a thing. I'm going to be so subtle. So at some point, investigators were so desperate that they went back to the bakery. Because I believe they probably had tried to, you know, catch him, you know, hawking a loogie or blowing his nose or whatever.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was too much, too much, too soon. Sorry. Anyway, they just didn his nose or whatever. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was too much, too much, too soon. Sorry. Anyway, they just didn't see that happening. I apologize. Great. They didn't see him do a farmer's blow.

What else are you going to tell me? Okay. People are horrible. Have you witnessed? I have witnessed someone doing that. Yeah, I've witnessed someone doing that. It's nasty. The world is not your toilet.

We're living in a society. That's right. Okay. So anyhow, that's why we don't wear hoodies to court. That's why we don't do farmer's blows. So the investigators come back to the bakery. And this time, Kim was like, step into my office. She said, I have a question to ask you.

When you were here earlier and you were investigating something, was it the murder of Mandy Stavik? And were you looking at Tim Bass for the murder? And she said the detective's eyes bugged out of his head like a cartoon character. But he tried to play it cool. It was like, so they interviewed him on this episode of 2020. And she's like, yeah, he was totally uncool. You know, his eyes bugged out and I knew right away. And he was like, well, it did take me by surprise.

But I get information. I don't give information. I was like, buddy, okay, okay. We're only human, you know. You know, so Kim's like, gotcha. Here's Tim Bass's delivery route. I hope this helps. God bless.

So they took that information and surveilled Tim, and they found out that Tim wore gloves when he worked. He didn't smoke. He didn't dispose of trash anywhere. He took his trash home with him, you know, like a totally normal guy. What a fucking weirdo. Mm-hmm. And they were like, well, fuck.

Yeah. So they called Kim up and they were like, yeah, that didn't pan out. And Kim was like, well, I watch those CSI shows. What do you guys need? A water bottle or something? And in this episode of 2020, they made it very clear that they are not allowed to ask someone to collect DNA for them. But if that person were to volunteer for the job, well, that's another matter. And Kim wants you to know that she volunteered 100%. She was not asked.

Okay, so everybody calm down. Brandy got the police uniform from the party city. She was not giving it, you know, like, mm. So she's like, okay, you need DNA from my weird, creepy employee, Tim. This is totally not related to Mandy Stavik's murder. Gotcha. Wink. Say no more, boys.

I'm happy to help. Say no more, boys. I'm happy to help. So Kim kept an eye on Tim, just like waiting and waiting for him to jizz into some sourdough or throw away a fork with his DNA on it. She emptied the garbage can constantly because she wanted a clean bag for when he threw away a cup or jizzed into that sourdough, whichever came first. Whichever came first, yeah. She wasn't going to judge.

You know, it's just like all about the DNA. Yeah. As I can tell, you're not at all thrown off by the fact that I just said that. Right. Very common thing to jizz into the sourdough. Which is tough because sourdough is so delicious, but you know it's got jizz in it. It's the sour element. Oh, God. Too far. Once again, you've taken it too far. Oh, it. It's the sour element. Oh, God.

Too far. Once again, you've taken it too far. Oh, yeah. It's me that took it too far. I kept it so classy with the jizz on the sourdough joking. You just made it nasty. This is a Christian show. Is it?

Yeah. I've decided that you're going to hell. So she did this watching and waiting. And finally, she saw him throw away a plastic cup and then throw away a Coke can. And she said, oh, shit, it's game time. It's go time. And the folks at 48 hours have their buttholes so tight that they bleeped the word shit and they blurred out Kim's whole mouth when she said it. We can hear about the rape and murder, but not the word shit.

No. No. She had all of a sudden changed into all black clothing and she did one of those dive rolls and she's like, Like dive rolls. And she's like, da-da-da-da. Da-da-da. Da-da-da. Da-da.

Da-da. No, so, okay. Here's how it happened. So he gets the drinky drink. Then he goes to the bathroom. And she just dashes over. Her heart's pounding. Of course. She gets the cup.

She puts it in her desk. And then she texts the detective. Whew. Whew. My heart would be pounding. I know. Yeah. My police hat would be all askew when he came out. And when Tim came out of the bathroom, he was holding two loaves of sourdough bread.

And she was like, well, you know, I've already got the cup, so I don't need that. Yeah. I don't need the gist on sourdough. So they just sold the bread. Oh, who's taking it too far now? It's always you. It's never me. So, you know, investigators come, they get the cup, they take it to the state crime lab.

And it was a match. One in 11 quadrillion. Oh, my gosh. I like them odds. Yeah. Yeah. So on December 12th, 2017, Mandy's mom's 81st birthday, 28 years after Mandy was murdered, 50-year-old Tim Bass was arrested in the bakery parking lot. Did you say December 12th?

Is that the name of the bakery? No, I'm just saying that he got his just desserts. Yeah, very good. Yeah, December 12th. And that's mine and Norm's half birthday. Oh, my God. You interrupted to say that it was your half birthday. Yes. That's more inappropriate than any of my sourdough jokes.

Yes. That's more inappropriate than any of my sourdough jokes. So he was charged with rape, kidnapping, and murder. In the interrogation room, two detectives were on one side of the table. Actually, one was kind of more like, you know, so they've got one of those, I don't really like these tables, that, like, they're made of fake wood. And, you know, so they've got one on this side, one on this side. I realize we're on an audio medium, so this is helpful to no one, but you guys are all just going to have to go with it.

They were sitting in kind of an L formation. Thank you. Yes. You got all the words. One detective leaned forward, beefy arms on the table, fingers interlaced. And Tim leaned forward, too, elbows on the table, acting like he was in the damn driver's seat. And Tim said, are you trying to get me to admit to something

I didn't do? Is that what you're trying to do right now? Pissed me off so much. Yeah. Like, dude, we have your DNA. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nonetheless, despite the fact that he was so tough, they did ask him a few questions about Mandy. They were like, hey, Tim, just checking. Did you ever have a relationship with Mandy? And Tim said no. They were like, okay, did you ever kiss her? He said no.

And then they asked him the next question question which reportedly hit him like a roundhouse kick to the testes it was then why would your dna be inside of her right to the nooksack trying to remember the name of the river i couldn't remember it and tim so this part was i didn't see this on the tape on the tape tim was like how did you get my dna and that's how tim learned about betrayal and boy don't we all feel sorry for him yeah just just real terrible so he was just i mean he was like spinning out he was like i don't remember giving you a DNA sample. So, you know, you must have got this in some sneaky way. And, you know, he's kind of, and the detective was like, yeah, I did get it in a sneaky way.

Yeah. And he's like, well, okay, all you had to do was say that. So then, you know, he's been caught. Uh-oh, fudge stripes. Yeah. But then Tim dropped a bombshell. It was a secret he'd kept for years, Brandy. Oh, no.

A secret that explained this whole mess. He was seeing Mandy. They'd had a tryst that day. And he didn't want to tell anyone because then they would think that he was the murderer. Well, you get it. Yeah, thank you, Brandy. Could have used you on the defense team. He said, I've been told not to say stuff and to hell with it.

I can't do this. I can't trust you guys. If this bites me in the ass or if this is not what I'm supposed to do, then whatever. I don't give a shit. I slept with her. He admitted that there was no... He pronounced rape wrong. Yeah, well.

He admitted that there was no proof of their relationship. They'd never called one another on the phone or exchanged any letters, and neither of them had ever told anyone about their relationship. No, no, it's super secret. You've clearly never been involved in something super hot and secret. super hot and secret, you know, where like you're so hot you can have feathered bangs and you hook up with some guy who looks like his hair was sharpied onto his head. You know how that goes. Yeah. Pale as old as time.

Actually, you know what? Someone did know about them hooking up. Who's that? Well, it was Tim's dad, who unfortunately was dead. So, you know, sometimes that's the way it goes. That's the way the cookie crumbles. So, yeah, Tim and Mandy hooked up and it was top secret and they just knew when to meet up for sex and fun times thanks to telepathy because, you know, they didn't call each other ever. Yeah.

He said, it's more of a friendship type thing we just talked and uh then it just kind of grew into more and more of a physical thing and we didn't really even do it that much so it was more kissing and stuff and the whole world was like sure jan at this, investigators were also talking to Tim's wife, Gina. Gina was a graduate of Mount Baker Senior High School, and she and Tim got married six weeks after Mandy's murder. They had been planning to get married later, but he wanted to move it up and move out of town. Looking back, Gina said, I married him to get away from home. Yeah.

By the way, Gina is very cool and matter of fact, and it seems like she has been through way too much. And unlike everyone on all these true crime shows, her hair looked wonderful. Oh, good. So in both the shows that I watched, she said that being married to Tim was awful. He was controlling

and emotionally abusive. She said she felt like his servant. He barked orders constantly. Get me a drink. Go get me food. He never called her by her name.

Only bitch and whore. Wow. And when Gina got mad about that, he got mad at her for not being able to take a joke cool yeah that hilarious joke where your life partner calls you a bitch all the time yeah she said it didn't feel like a marriage it felt like. She stayed with him for decades because she was scared. She did leave him in 2010 and she got a restraining order against him and started divorce proceedings. But Tim said that he would lie to the judge and get their three kids taken away from her. And that just scared the shit out of her. And it made her compliant. So she went back to him,

which, you know, it's domestic abuse. This is just part of the thing. You leave, you come back, you leave, you come back. But Gina was terrified of him. She didn't know what he was capable of. But she knew he loved watching, like, cold case files and other murder shows and critiquing the jobs the murderers had done

at covering their tracks, which honestly just sounds like you and me. Yeah. But also murderers. But when investigators questioned Gina about the day that Mandy went missing, she gave Tim an alibi. She said that she went to his house that day and she actually saw Mandy out running. She spent the day with tim so he couldn't

have hurt mandy gino later recanted that statement and with tim under arrest for murder gina was like yeah i think it's time for a divorce yeah and in may of 2019 it was trial time prosecutor dave mckechran was 44 when mandy was murdered and he'd been the area prosecutor for like 50 years. And by the time this case came to trial, he was retired. But at the age of 73, he came out of retirement and agreed to work for free as the head of the prosecution. Wow. Meanwhile, Tim Bass had a team of public defenders who, leading up to the trial, tried to get pages from Mandy's diary admitted as evidence. So I guess some of Mandy's journal entries were pretty emotional, as they would be for a teenage girl.

Yeah. And so they wanted to use that as like, maybe she hadn't been murdered at all. Maybe this had been a suicide. Yeah, okay. Yeah. It doesn't appear that they were successful in that because I went on newspapers.com and looked at a few articles from the trial. None of them mentioned that at all.

In opening arguments, defense attorney Stephen Jackson told the jury that his client was not guilty. He didn't kidnap anyone, he didn't rape anyone, and he certainly didn't kill anyone. He told them that in reality, Tim and Mandy had consensual sex before she was murdered. He also pointed out that although four witnesses saw Mandy jogging that day, none of them saw Tim Bass. No one saw Tim Bass kidnap Mandy, and there's no evidence that he kidnapped Mandy,

which is true. He said there was no evidence that she was restrained or raped. I know. Yeah. I mean, I thought it was a really good opening argument. But the prosecution was like, nope, Yeah. I mean, not it really. I thought it was a really good argument. But the prosecution was like, nope, Tim Bass and Mandy Stavik had no contact with each other. They didn't have a relationship. They didn't even hang out.

Tim attacked her and killed her. And that's it. The prosecution called the original medical examiner who examined Mandy's body and they called Kim Wagner, Tim's boss, who's the hero. They also called Tim's now ex-wife Gina to the stand, and Gina testified that the original alibi she'd given to police was a lie. She said Tim had asked her to lie for him, and she'd done it because she was afraid that if she didn't, he'd kill her too. She also said that she was with him when he asked his mother to lie for him. She said he asked his mom, can we say dad did it?

Wow. And his mom covered her face with her hands and said, no. Wow. Yeah, his dad who's now dad. Yeah. Can we blame it on dad? Tim's brother, Tom, also took the stand. And as soon as he was up there, the prosecution was like, I'm sorry, your parents had two boys and they named you Tim and Tom. And Tim and Tom's mother was immediately arrested for being ridiculous.

Tim and Tom? Yeah, Tim and Tom. No. Tom said that when Tim was under investigation for Mandy's murder, he came to Tom and was like,

hey, I slept with Mandy like a million years ago and would you mind telling the police that you also slept with her? Hmm. Yeah,

trying to make it look like, oh, she was just having sex with everybody. Sleeping around, yeah. Tom also testified that Tim had pressured their mother to make up an alibi for him. Wow. He wanted her to tell the police that they'd been Christmas shopping when Mandy was murdered. The prosecution also called a bunch of Mandy's friends and family and her former boyfriend, and the prosecutor made a point of asking all of them if they'd ever seen Mandy with Tim Bass.

And they all said no. Mandy's ex-boyfriend actually said, we would have never hung out with him. At all. Ever. Which is a sick burn. Yeah. Apparently Tom was actually friends with Mandy and they hung out in the same social circle.

Really? Yeah. Wow. And this, you know, Tim was this creepy older brother. Yeah. Whew. Stark Follis was another member of the defense team and despite the fact that it sounds like I pulled his name from a sci-fi book, he is a real man. Stark Follis was another member of the defense team,

and despite the fact that it sounds like I pulled his name from a sci-fi book, he is a real man. And he pointed out that DNA is just proof of contact. It's not proof of rape. The defense argued that Mandy and Tim had sex when she came home from Thanksgiving break. They called Dr. Elizabeth Johnson, who interestingly gave her testimony with her purse on her shoulder. She did eventually put it down, but I was like, give that lady a place to put her purse.

Ma'am, it's a court of law! She looked wonderful, and her purse looked great. I have no issue with how she was dressed for court. I just wished that she had a place to put her purse so she didn't have to carry it up there with her. She wished that she had a place to put her purse so she didn't have to, like, carry it up there with her. She said that the semen could have been in Mandy for up to two days before her death, which was obviously counter to what the prosecution was saying. Yeah, I know.

Brandy's making her face. In closing arguments, the defense acknowledged that the victim of the crime had been a beautiful woman and that their client was an ugly old creep. But that's only if you look at him right now, the defense said. It's easy to make the assumption that this pretty young woman would never have had anything to do with Mr. Bass, but this is Mr. Bass circa the late 80s. And he pointed to the projector, which showed a picture of Tim back in the day. And in that picture, which was supposed to make us weak in the knees, actually just locked

our knees and we all passed out. Because in this photo, Tim looked like just a dweeb. He was doing that casual lean thing against the wall with one hand in his pocket. He was supposed to look super hot. Yeah. Look how hot he is there. Now, ladies, ladies, please tell me you're not into that. All right.

Who knows how many pictures they had to go through to be like, I guess this is the hottest one we've got. The defense continued. Just because somebody hadn't seen them together doesn't mean that they hadn't been together at some point. This is an investigation based on the faulty assumption that this is a sexual assault. Yeah. Which, again, I think this is not a bad defense. Yeah, it's the strongest argument they have. I totally agree.

But yeah, I mean, the fact that nobody had ever seen them together, there'd been no phone call. I mean, come on. Yep. The prosecution was like, of course, there was no consensual sex. These two had no contact with each other. Hold this guy accountable. Yeah.

The jury deliberated for five hours. And they found him guilty of murder, rape, and kidnapping. Yeah. Six weeks later, he was in for sentencing. Sandra Bass, Tim's mom, addressed the court. Sandra Bass Tim's mom addressed the court and first

she apologized for naming her sons Tim and Tom which she acknowledged was ridiculous and she also said that he'd never asked her

about framing his dad and that she knew her son was not guilty I know this whole thing makes me so uncomfortable I mean this has obviously torn this whole family apart. And then Tim spoke.

He told everyone that he was 100 percent innocent and that he hadn't received a fair trial. He added, in saying that, though, the better man in me says that I should say very little today and give this day to the Stavik family. What a hero. Oh, my goodness. Amazing. Somehow, though, he received the maximum sentence, which was 27 years. The judge said, for 30 years, you have lived free from the responsibility of your acts. For 30 years, you have lived free from the responsibility of your acts.

That life has been a lie, and tragically, it has caught your family, your mother, your brother, your ex-wife, and your children in its web. Tim did not get life in prison because prosecutors hadn't charged him with premeditated murder. They didn't feel like they had enough for that. I agree. Although they did feel like so Tim's room had a window that faced the road and they felt like he had watched her on these runs and obviously planned the whole thing. Tim immediately appealed his sentence and tried to argue that there was evidence of another suspect who wasn't fully investigated. But as recently as November of 2020, a judge decided that the evidence didn't meet the bar for relief from judgment or enough to get him a new trial.

That's the story of the murder of Mandy Stavik. The high school now has a memorial scholarship in her honor. That's super cool. And her sister named Mandy's niece after her. Yeah. It's really sweet oh i know woof indeed you know what i think we should do now take some questions from the discord i agree but first what the hell are we talking about? Yeah, what is a Discord, Kristen? Well, whoa, whoa, beep, beep, beep, back it up, back it up.

First of all, you probably want more of us. Obviously. How could you not? My God. And I bet you want to pay for it. Well, we have an option for you. Head on over to Patreon, where at the $5 level, you get a monthly bonus episode. We're up to 21 bonus episodes

right now. Sorry, we are. They are full. Nothing to sneeze at, and please don't sneeze at me. Even if Brandy needs your DNA, she still won't be grateful. At that level, you also get into the Discord, which is like a little 90s-style chat room to chat the day away.

At the $7 level. You get all that plus a monthly bonus video. Ooh. Ooh. Should we tell them what we did this month? We just filmed it today. Mm-hmm. Had a little showdown. Uh-huh.

What did we do, Brandi? We played Mario Kart against each other and I... Patty, believe that. We don't want people to know how it turned out. It's a real humdinger. How did it all go? It's kind of the Super Bowl of Mario Kart. Are we allowed to say Super Bowl or do we have to pay someone every time we say that?

Yeah, you can say that. Okay, anyway. They always say the big game. Big game! Anyway, at that level you also get a sticker, a card with our lovely autographs. You get inducted at the end of the podcast. What? And at the $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level, you get all that.

Plus, ad-free episodes a day early. 10% off on merch. That's right. We got t-shirts and stickers, folks. T-shirts and stickers? Stickers and t-shirts. Oh. That's right. We got t-shirts and stickers, folks. T-shirts and stickers? Stickers and t-shirts. You can get 10% off. We're just going to say it again.

Yeah. All right. All right. What are the people asking us today? Oh, I didn't write this down. Wants to know, crunchy or soft tacos? Oh, I feel very strongly. You do?

Yes. Crunchy. Duh. Oh. I do both. Yeah, I actually do both as well. Depends on what mood I'm in. Oh.

What about a Doritos Locos taco? You ever do that? I don't know that I've ever had the pleasure. Really? You know I'm a very basic bitch. I know. I know. You have do that? I don't know that I've ever had the pleasure. Really? You know I'm a very basic bitch. I know, I know. You have your standard order. You never branched out and just tried a delicious taco inside a Dorito?

No. I can't say that I have. What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Do you know how long it took you? Do you like Doritos? Yeah, I do. I mean, who doesn't? Do you like tacos? Yes, I do. Then why wouldn't you put them together? Do you like chocolate pudding, I do. I mean, who doesn't? Do you like tacos? Yes, I do. Then why wouldn't you put them together? Do you like chocolate pudding?

I do. Do you like broccoli? I do. Then why don't you put them together? Those don't go together! Well, Doritos and tacos go together like lamb and tuna fish. Oh. What is that

referencing, Big Daddy? Okay. Perhaps he prefers spaghetti and meatball? That movie's stupid. Yeah. Oh. This is a good question. Okay.

It's for you, Kristen. Okay. Eddie Vedder's next wife would like to know why, for the love of all that is holy, have you never watched Gilmore Girls? I don't know. I mean, you... What? You, like, spent a big portion of your life, like, in New England, so... I mean, I...

Wouldn't you, like, be drawn to it a little bit? Evidently not. I mean, clearly. Was it on the WB? It was. Yeah, for some reason, I didn't really get into many of the WB shows back in the day. Neither did I, but I loved Gilmore Girls. Well, clearly you did get into the WB.

What else did I watch? The WB. Just because of Michigan J-Frog. Is Michigan J-Frog racist? I don't know. Is he? Google it. I feel like I heard that that's racist. I don't know. Is he? Google it. I feel like I heard that that's racist.

I don't know. Am I crazy? Is Michigan... Okay. Aren't you finding stuff about this? Yeah, so apparently it's rooted in blackface. Oh, and a minstrel act. Yeah.

Well, ruin that. Well. What else do you enjoy? I michigan j frog tattoo covered up with a pepe the frog one oh no that's bad too yeah do pepe maybe just stay away from no pepe lepew no oh god yeah that is such a creepy. Yeah. What the hell? Mm-hmm. Oh. Lays Ruffles and Cottage Cheese wants to know, Brandy, I know you love interior design. I do, too. What is an interior design?

What's wrong? I hate that name. I love it. I know you do. What is an interior design trend you love, and what is one that you hate? Okay. I love a layered mantle. Like people are taking their mantles and they're doing like a whole like mantlescape with layered pieces at different heights and different depths.

Love it. Big trampoline, mini trampoline. No. One of those trampolines for children. No. Uh-huh. What do you hate? What do you hate? What do I hate? What do you hate? What do I hate?

What do I hate? I feel like this is kind of like a la Joanna Gaines. Yeah. Just like random pieces of furniture attached to the wall. Are people doing that? Yeah, like they're doing like a chair as a shelf. No. Yeah. No. Against the law. Are people doing that? Yeah, like they're doing like a chair as a shelf. No. No. Yeah. No.

Against the law. I saw a picture of a house that had a piano at the top of a piano. A what? The top of a piano, just like on the wall as like a focal point. No. No. Joanna, you've gone too far. Do you have any trends that you're...

You know, I've never been a big word art person. Oh, yeah. And that's very... That's very in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's all I got.

Yeah. I feel like we should address this simply because this was my science experiment in the sixth grade. Oh, my. Peanut Butter in the Cabinet would like to know, do you put bread in the fridge? This was your sixth grade science experiment? Tell me everything. It was called Moldy Oldies. I kind of remember this.

And it was, I tested if bread, if two different types of bread, I did white bread and wheat bread, molded faster at room temperature or in the refrigerator. And both breads stayed moldfree much longer in the fridge. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, seems kind of obvious, but then again, it was your sixth grade science experiment. However, as an adult, I do not keep my fridge in the bread. And the bread.

Reverse that. It's tough to find bread big enough. Keep your fridge in it. It helps if you jizz into the sourdough. That expands it. I don't like cold bread. So I keep it in my bread box. Okay. It's actually kind of a lie.

Why would you lie about something so low stakes? Do you not have a bread box? I do, but we keep it on top of the bread box because the bread box... What? You look so ashamed. ...is full of Nutri-Grain bars. Why? Why do you look so ashamed?

Because why wouldn't the bread be in the bread box? It's just pandemonium over at your place. It is. I mean, would it make you feel better to take out the Nutri-Grain bars? Where am I going to put the Nutri-Grain bars then? On top of the bread box. No, they're just going to be falling around all willy-nilly. Well, you keep them in the box.

Oh, I don't like that. Well, I don't know what to tell you, ma'am. Oh. Toasty't like that. Well, I don't know what to tell you, ma'am. Oh, Toasty and Mellow wants to know, have you ever had jello cake? I think some areas call it poke cake. Have we had jello cake? Oh, you bet your ass we've had poke cake. Where do you think we're from? Should we reminisce about the poke cakes we've had?

My mom used to do a Fourth of July one. Oh, it was like a red, white, and blue situation. Somebody knows her colors. Had Cool Whip on top. Oh, yeah. It's got to have Cool Whip on top. Yeah. Okay. What you got?

I used to make. Haven't made it in quite some time. It's really a summer cool about that. Yeah. Okay. What you got? I used to make. Haven't made it in quite some time. It's really a summer cake. Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm. Here's a strawberry cake base. All right.

You've got me. Bake it. Mm-hmm. Take it out. Mm-hmm. You poke it. Oh, yeah. Strawberry jello over the top of that.

Mm-hmm. Vanilla pudding. Okay over the top of that. Mm-hmm. Vanilla pudding. Okay. On top of that. Okay. And then Cool Whip on top of that. Okay. Is there enough?

Nope. Okay. You have to refrigerate it. Okay. And then all of that just becomes one. And it's cold and delicious. That just becomes one. When four become one. Delicious. It sounds amazing.

It's so good. You know what summer dessert I love? What? Strawberry pretzel salad. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh, my God.

It's typical Midwest where it says salad. There's not a thing that says salad in sight. It has pretzels in it. Oh, my God. It's so good. It's so good. It looks so trashy. Oh, yeah.

It is so trashy. It is trashy. And it is delicious. Yeah. Ooh. What you got? Toasty and Mellow is really bringing the questions today. Okay. Toasty and Mellow is really bringing the questions today. Okay.

Toasty and Mellow would like to know, thoughts on chicken breakfast sandwiches? Should chicken be for breakfast? I'll allow it. Okay. Wendy's. People are sleeping on Wendy's breakfast, let me tell you. Well, yeah, they are because I didn't even know they did breakfast. It's pretty new.

Okay. You're on a newsletter, aren't you? Mm-hmm. They have a honey butter chicken biscuit. Okay, that sounds really good. It was a biscuit. Yep, that sounds really good. Inside it is a little chicken.

Just a whole chicken? A little chicken patty. And then atop that is a melted pat of honey butter. Yeah, I mean, that sounds pretty good. It's delicious. They also have a Frostichino. Are you getting any money from this? I'm getting nothing from this.

This is not a sponsored bit. I'm getting nothing from this. This is not a sponsored bit. Which is coffee with a little frosty in it. That sounds incredible. It's so fucking good. You know what? It's so good. Here, let me tell you why it's so good.

Okay. This is why you would like it, too. Because you can taste the frosty in there, but somehow it's not, like, sweet. Okay. It's not overwhelming. No, it's so good. This seems like the kind of thing you'd have it and then your whole day's shot. Yesterday, Norman and I had the Costco lasagna for dinner, which is so good.

But I, like, I can't fucking control myself. Yeah. And so he's like, hey, you know, I steamed some broccoli just so we don't feel like shit about ourselves. But then I just like, I ate like half a lasagna and I ate some broccoli on top of it. I had to be rolled around the home. It was a mess. Like Violet Beauregard. That's right.

Okay. I'm going to ask this because I'm going to have faith in you that you will have done your homework by now, Brandy. Oh, no. LZ wants to know, thoughts on the Meghan Markle Oprah interview? Have you watched it? Oh, of course you haven't. Okay, Brandy. Brandy, Brandy.

Have you watched it? Of course you haven't. Okay, Brandy. Brandy, Brandy. Who do you think asked Harry if he was worried about the color of his child? Oh, I actually have a very strong opinion on this. I want to hear it. I think it's Camilla.

No. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Why do you think it's Camilla? I just think it's... She's the lady you love to hate? I think it's the most fitting, yeah. Wow.

Yeah. Who do you think did? Prince Charles. It's possible. When he talked about his dad in that interview, there was so much hurt in his voice about him. Okay, to me, so I've done a lot of reading about the... No watching, all reading. I've seen some

clips. I just haven't watched the whole thing in its entirety. I think that that's deeply rooted, but I also think that that backs up my theory that it was Camilla, because I think it was like something Camilla said that was super, super hurtful.

And then my, my assumption is that then Charles was like, what, what, what? Just curious. I really don't think so. Okay. It's interesting. So you didn't even for a second think it was William. No. No, I didn't either.

He's too good to us. We love him too much. Yeah. No, we know nothing about him. Yeah. Yeah, but in the interview, like, she... Yeah, I don the interview, like, she... I don't know.

Okay. Okay. I think it's dear old dad. No, it could be. You could be right. Babybug424 asks, would you last on a season of Survivor? Hello. I fucking love Survivor. I wouldn't make it a day.

Do you still watch Survivor? I love Survivor. Brandy. Brandy. I love Survivor. I wouldn't make it a day. Do you still watch Survivor? I love Survivor. Brandy. I love Survivor. I watched the first season of Survivor. Haven't watched it since. Oh, I only started watching it within the last couple of years. You're the only person who can say that.

Fucking love it. I started watching it because a KU basketball player went on. A former KU basketball player. Oh my God, that's the most brandy thing I've ever heard. I was like, I gotta watch this! And then I loved it and so then I've kept watching it. Yeah, I love it.

I would not make it a day. I absolutely, without a doubt, could not sleep on the beach. A woman had a bug crawl in her ear and live in there for days. She could hear it just rooting around in there.

No, no, no. You know, I act all above it. If I started watching, you know me in reality TV. I'm a sucker for it. You know what show I could really never do. And I do not understand one bit. Naked and Afraid. What the And I do not understand one bit. Naked and afraid.

Oh, no. Not a chance. What the hell are these people thinking? Nope. Mm-mm. No. You're stuck with some weird dude. Yeah.

And you have to. I think women should blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you got your bare ass hanging out for all the bugs to eat. Yes. I'd probably get sunburned.

Oh, you would. Everybody does. Third degree. What's the worst degree?. I'd probably get sunburned. Oh, you would. Everybody does. What's the worst degree? Is it the third degree? Probably. That's the degree I'd get. Cocoa Nuts wants to know, how do you eat an Oreo? Are you just a chomper?

Or do you do like a twist and a lick? No. I hate the twist and lickers. Oh, okay. I don't want to see that much of somebody's tongue exposed. No, I bite into my food like a civilized individual. Are you a twist and licker?

No, but it will surprise you not at all that I have a method. Wait, is it like every other method you've shared, which is like, okay, so here's what you do. You put it in your mouth and you just let it disintegrate a little and then you eat it. Yeah. You're missing a step. Oh, come on. Come on. What do you do?

You put it in your mouth. The whole Oreo. Yeah. The whole. I know. Okay, this mouth is big. You've got a roomy mouth. It whole Oreo. Yeah. The whole. I know. Okay, this mouth is big. You've got a roomy mouth. It's perfectly made to fit one Oreo.

You take a little sip of milk. And you just let that wash over it. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. And then you just kind of mash it up. Ew. Gross. Yep. And then you just kind of mash it up. Ew.

Gross. Gross. No one wants to hear this. Okay. Norman and I were for real talking about this yesterday. Got into a big debate. I personally feel, and he could not understand this at all. I feel like double stuff is too much stuff. No. Meggie stuff, way too much. Meggie stuff, I'm not here for Meg at all. I feel like double stuff is too much stuff. No.

Mega stuff, way too much. Mega stuff, I'm not here for mega stuff. I like a double stuff. There have to be limits. You can only take so much stuff. That's right. Yeah, he feels the same way you do. Double stuff is perfect.

Mega stuff, get out of here. Here's my controversial opinion. Okay. I like... The Nazis weren't really... I'm just kidding. I like the always save off-brand chocolate sandwich cookies. Really?

Better than an Oreo. That is controversial. Although, you know, they have a lemony one that I really... It's so good. The lemon ones are so good. You know what's funny is I kind of associate that off-brand thing with like church.

Yeah. Yeah, because no one was springing for like the Oreo brand. Yeah. Yeah. But a free cookie is a free cookie. And it reminds me of the Oreo brand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But a free cookie is a free cookie. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it reminds me of the Lurd.

Somewhere I saw, I don't know if this was Twitter, but someone was like, did you see this? Someone was like, oh, I really like Let's Go to Court.

I'm just really hoping they're not problematic. Just in our own special way. Maybe like, I hope I'm not problematic too. Yeah. Peapants wants to know, what's the most adventurous thing

you've ever done? Skydiving, rock climbing, parasailing. I hiked to the Great Canyon. I almost died. That's my most adventurous thing you got camel toe canyon toe kristin both i lost two toenails to that canyon i mean i don't know i'm not super i mean i've been parasailing yeah that's that's pretty

adventurous yeah i also used to do the, oh, what was that thing called? I almost said the zip line. That's not what it's called. No. Ripcord. Ripcord. Yeah, I've done that too. Yeah, I used to do that a bunch when I was like a teenager.

I thought that was like exhilarating. Where did you do that? Like every theme park ever. Oh, all right, all right. And like a real questionable like go-kart track yeah i think it's one of those things where like we we all do it because it's like well this is a fun thing yeah then you look around like who's running this when was the last time this thing was inspected shabam shabam double whammy i like to know, what is your favorite party game? Not trivia, but like Cards Against Humanity, Pictionary, et cetera.

Okay. We have this new game in my family that we play. It's called Linky. I found it on Amazon. Okay. So each card has four clues that lead you to a word. And then all four of those words have something in common. They are then a clue to a common link.

And so to win the card, you have to get the common link. Just getting the four clues doesn't get you anything. Okay. That does sound fun. It's very fun. We do like an extra challenge with it oh my god you would you would the game comes with notepads so that you can write down the answer to each clue so then you can then find your link we do it only by memory so you have to remember all four of them and then the link. It's so fun.

Linky. L-I-N-K-E-E. You can find it on Amazon. Use promo code Brandy. What's your favorite party game? Not trivia. Are you like a Pictionary person? Do you like? You know...

Can I tell you my least favorite? Oh, you know what? You know what game I like? What? We've been having a lot of fun with this. Avalon. What is that? So it's a game where everyone gets assigned a role.

It's a secret thing and like either you're evil or you're good. And nobody knows who's what. Like a secret Hitler type of thing? Yeah, kind of like that. My niece loves the game. And it's so cute. Like every time we play it, you know, there's this part where you're supposed to be quiet. And she's just like giggling the whole time. She's so thrilled.

Certain people, it's just so obvious when they're bad. Anyway, it's a good time. Yeah. Here's my game that I don't love. Okay. Naked Twister. No. With the whole family, it's weird.

Charades. Because I feel like what I'm doing in my head doesn't match what I'm able to get my body to do. And so it's just not quite as good as I think I am. You know what? I feel the same way about Pictionary. Yeah. I have no artistic skill. And I'm like, how do you not see that that's a rhino?

And I start drawing stuff and everybody laughs. Yeah. And it's not a laughing matter. It's not a laughing matter. It's not a laughing matter. Possum stole my assault rifle. What? Ask any bad habits. Biting nails, etc.

I was a nail biter for years. Brandy, you bit your nails during my case. I didn't bite them. I picked one little corner off and I broke. Brandy, you had your fangers all up in your mouth. No, no. I don't bite them anymore. I was a nail biter for years, though.

You guys. She still does it sometimes. Do I do it and I don't notice? Yeah. You think? What do you mean, do you think? No, I've seen you do it. Yeah.

Really? Yeah. What? Why would I make it up? Yeah, you do it sometimes. Not super often. Huh. Not super often at all.

But, like, yeah, today you did it well that's weird i don't think it's that weird at all like when we were kids you would do it a lot oh yeah all the time and like i feel like every couple months i see you do it huh that's so weird i'm not even aware that I'm doing it you have to ask David now you have to ask your family I will do you have any

do you have any bad habits of course of course like a million are you like a picker oh god yeah well and I like

I pick at my skin yeah I'm disgusting I'm disgusting I'm disgusting I must be stopped. Oh, do you guys have nicknames for Dottie? Do you call her anything other than Dottie?

Dot. Oh, that's super cute. Miss Dot. Prayers for Norman's Butthole asks, do you have nicknames for Dottie and do you have nicknames for London? So we call London Little Love. Yeah. Like we call her that more than we call her London.

Yeah. Yeah. And one day you'll call her Dawn. No, I'm not going to call her that more than we call her London. Yeah. Yeah. And one day you'll call her Dawn. No, I'm not going to call her Dawn. That'd make more sense than Maggie. I'll tell you that. Should we do some Supreme Court inductions? Let's do it.

All right. This week we are continuing with names and favorite cookies. Here we go. Sarah Power. Homemade milk chocolate chip. Alice Guyatt. My grandma's oatmeal lemon zest cookies. Stephanie Limbert.

The large hermit cookies baked by Wellesley College's dining services in the 1980s. Okay, they were memorable. You know what? We remember the Mill Creek Elementary School big ass chocolate chip cookies. Absolutely. Delicious. Nicole Bueller.

Confetti sandwich cookie. Jean E. Peanut butter cookies. Jordan Anderson. Peanut butter chip from insomnia. Haley Heinemann. Salted caramel chocolate chip. Brandy Bateman.

What a hot name. Tough Cookies. Angela Harrison. Do you think she doesn't sound hot? Are you willing to offend her? I maintain I don't think it's a hot girl name. I'm sorry, Brandy Bateman. Brandy's so hot, she doesn't even care that you said that about her.

She probably doesn't. Chocolate chip. Abby. Funfetti from... Schmackeries? I don't know what that is. Schmackeries? I would try it.

Ara Saley. Mint chocolate chip. Tova. Oatmeal raisin. Sarah. Ooh, funfetti cookies with ice cream in the middle. This was like funfetti confetti extravaganza. Sam Smith.

I don't like baked goods, so nachos. Well, you know, you can like them both. Liz. Hamburger cookies. Nilla wafer, Thin Mint, Nilla wafer. Oh, okay. I'll try it, but I don't know. I'm skeptical.

I don't know. Brianna Ball. White chocolate macadamia. Christine Valdez. Pot cookies. Not right. Rachel Kelly. Molasses cookies.

Emma Rich. Snickerdoodles. Claudia Martinez. My mom's homemade pan de polvo. Emma Baldwin. No-bake cookies. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you for all of your support.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. On Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating, leave us a review, and then be sure to join us next week. Should we ask for a five-star review? Do we have the nuts? Yeah, leave us a five-star review. Please.

You know, thank you. Please, thank you. And we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

I got my info from an episode of 48 Hours titled Mandy Stavik, The Case No One Could Forget, plus an episode of 2020 titled 30 Years Searching, as well as reporting by Denver Pratt for the Bellingham Herald. I got my info from an article for the Crime Library by Seamus McGraw, an article by Jonathan King for the Sun Sentinel, and additional articles from the Ocala Star Banner, the Panama City News Herald, and the Herald Tribune. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours. But please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.