Let's Go To Court! - 168: A Man Who Hated Domino's & a Family Annihilator

Episode Date: April 7, 2021

Mitchell Carlton Sims was pretty proud of himself. He’d landed a job as the manager of a Domino’s Pizza in West Columbia, South Carolina. But the good times didn’t last long. He got into a disagreement with his boss over a bonus and flipped out. Mitch tried to stage a coup. It didn’t work. He tried to get his boss fired. That didn’t work either. Finally, Mitch quit. But he held onto an out-of-control rage toward his former employer.  Then Brandi tells us about a family annihilator. (Does that surprise you? If so, welcome to the podcast.) James Kraig Kahler was a bad husband. He controlled and manipulated his wife, Karen. He controlled Karen’s social circle, as well as her finances. But James lost a little control when Karen sold enough cakes to buy herself a gym membership. She became a regular at the gym, and eventually found work as a trainer. It was there that she met Sunny Reece. Karen and Sunny’s friendship soon blossomed into something more. Initially, James was okay with that. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: An episode of Vengeance: Killer Coworkers, titled, “Killing Spree” “Defendant’s voice: Tape describes killing of pizza deliveryman,” by Patricia Klein for the Los Angeles Times People v. Sims, on courtlistener.com “Mitchell Carlton Sims,” entry on Murderpedia “Motel visit key to ‘pizza murder’ verdict,” by Stephanie O’Neill for the Los Angeles Times “Restaurant robbery described,” Associated Press “Death penalty urged in slaying of pizza deliveryman,” Associated Press “Witness says murder defendant hated pizza chain,” by Stephanie O’Neill for the Los Angeles Times In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Death in the Family” episode Fatal Vows “Fatal Vows: Lesbian affair leads jilted husband to murder his ex-wife and their daughters - The Kahler Case” The Mirror “James Kraig Kahler” murderpedia.org “Testimony begins in Kahler murder trial” by Brennan David, Columbia Daily Tribune “State of Kansas v. James Kahler” findlaw.com “Kahler v. Kansas” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a man who hated dominoes.

And I'll be talking about a family annihilator. This is going to be a terrible episode. My case is so bad. How much does he hate dominoes? You are going to be blown away by how much this guy hates dominoes. I don't know why I'm laughing. It's because I'm nervous. Is that bad? Yeah, it's really bad.

Do you seek out these Domino's cases? Okay. Okay, I'm assuming we're talking about Domino's pizza and not the game Domino's. Do you know me? Yes, of course. Here's the ultimate F you to me. I thought this was going to be like a, you know, relatively light case because it involved Domino's pizza. No. Boy, was I wrong. Great. Excellent. I just want everyone to

like strap in. OK. Yeah. Mine's also not good because I mentioned it's a family annihilator. And it's you. I mean, yeah. Come on on do you want to talk about where we're sitting yes i do yes i do it makes me okay i'm a little nostalgic getting a little bit of steel over here so for a long time we've been recording on two separate desks but like the kitchen table that my family used all through my childhood that you have eaten many a meal at. Many a meal at. For the past, what, 25 years? Yeah. Maybe.

That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Like 25 years. It was in really bad shape. Norm did his woodworking skills on it. He fixed it up. And now this is where we record our podcast on the old kitchen table.

It's so cool. It's so cool. I love it so much. How many quesadillas did we eat on this thing? You know, my mom would, she'd just always throw together some quesadillas. And the other thing? What? Grilled cheeses.

Yeah. Your mom loved to fix us up a grilled cheese. Which is really, I mean, quesadillas and grilled cheese. They're just the same thing. Not to us. Not to us. They delighted us every time. Oh, man.

Your mom introduced me to. What? The two craft single method of grilled cheese. Everybody listen up and listen good. The charrette method for making a grilled cheese. You don't get shy with the butter. Nope. You don't go crazy with the bread that tastes like tree bark.

No. You get two American American craft singles. Put them on there. You gotta get the heat just right. Yep. Yeah, because you can't have the bread crisping too fast because your cheese doesn't get melty enough.

Yep. You gotta be a little patient. Wait for those craft singles to do their thing. Alright, this is the end of our cooking show. You're welcome, everyone. Get ready to experience an all-new Dawn Valley North

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. You real excited to talk about Domino's? God, I am just. You know how I am when I accidentally stumble into a case that's just too much for me. Yeah. Been hating it. I dragged out our conversation over lunch. Norm had to be like, are you guys going to record it?

We were having a good conversation. We were. And that little man. Don't call him that little man. He's a normal sized man. I almost called him a little bitch. We were. And that little man. Don't call him that little man. He's a normal sized man. I almost called him a little bitch. And I thought, no. No.

Too much. Too much. You know why I'm in an extra bad mood? Why? So I was working on this this morning because I like. You're like, I can't do it anymore. I poured it off yesterday because I didn't want to. We've all been there.

We've all, I mean, you and me. Yep. While I was working on this case, I was like, you know what I also have been putting off? Waxing my lady mustache. So literally, as I worked on this horrible case, I had sugar wax on my overlock. You cannot double those up. I did though. But it's one of those things, I mean you gotta plan that stuff.

You gotta wait for the wax to heat up. You gotta make sure you don't already have lotion on your face because then that stuff's just gonna slide right off. It just slides right off. Also you have to wait for it to get nice and bushy up there. You do, you have to grow it out. And boy did do I.

You got a full stash, huh? Not anymore, as you can see. You look amazing. Oh, amazing. Amazing. Oh, my. Your highlighter also looks amazing. My highlighter? Yeah, don't you have like a little... I don't. What? That's just your natural glow?

Well, I wear a lot of sunscreen, so I just kind of am reflecting. It looks good. You look great. Your cheekbones? Popping. Yes. My upper lip? Hairless. As of three hours ago. Should I not have

told the people about... I mean, listen, we all have our things. You know, for the longest time, I thought no one could see the hair because it was light hair. You could still say, ever looked in a rearview mirror while you're in a car just in that natural sunlight? Yeah, I've seen some things.

I've seen some things as well. What'd you see? I got this, like, I got, like, three hairs right here on my chin. Oh my god, I know, ever since. Yeah. It's just, it's three hairs right here on my chin. Oh, my God. I know. Ever since. Yeah. It's three hairs. Pluck those puppies. It's a sad day for a lady when she realizes she's got to be on neck watch.

Till the end of time. Neck watch. Okay, I'm stalling. Tell us about your terrible case and then you know what? I'll follow up with my terrible case. Oh, good. It's great. Yay.

And you've really got two great cases coming your way. Okay. Let's start off with some shout outs. I found this on an episode of Vengeance, Killer Coworkers. Oh. Your show that you don't like from HLN, right? Mm-hmm. Okay.

The title of the episode, Killing Spree. Oh. So I blame myself. Yeah, you just zoomed right past that title and was like, oh, I bet this is a really great, lighthearted case about a killing spree at a Domino's. I didn't think it was going to be lighthearted. I bet the pizza just evens out that mass murder. That's what I was kind of hoping. It's just, it's so much darker.

Mass murder with a side of pizza. You know my, okay, it's arrogance. It's arrogance. You know why? Because I was like, if it were really bad, I would have heard about it. Apparently not. Apparently not. Okay.

Anyway, also a website called courtlistener.com. Have you ever been there? Yeah, that sounds familiar. All right. Well, they had a great, you know, court documents on this. Murderpedia, newspapers.com, kisses, hugs. Yeah. Anything else they want.

I don't think you're supposed to do kisses and hugs during COVID times, Kristen. Anything they want, Brandi. You know supposed to do kisses and hugs during covet times kristin anything they want brandy you know at some point i will get vaccinated because the rest of the people in missouri are not interested exactly it's like fucking i will take it please i'll bring my arm right to you let me have it i'll even wear like an easy access piece of clothing. You know that's my plan for tomorrow. Yeah. Okay, so Norman was on one list that I wasn't on. Grounds for divorce, Kristen.

It's going to happen. He put himself on the list and didn't. Yeah. Should I call him a little bitch now no so he's going and i'm gonna go and wait in the car and he's gonna be like hey i've got a wife and she's oh she's got short she's sleeveless right now sleeveless arm right there for the taking yep it probably won't work. But anyway, we're going to try. Brandy, today I'm about to tell you about a really bad man. His friends called him the human ashtray.

Why? Because he did this super fun, very cool thing where he put out cigarettes onto his own body. The dude was so awful that these days when people refer to him, they give him the middle name treatment. Trademark LGTC. You know what? See, this is how I know you're a freak. You know exactly what that means when someone has the middle name treatment. I do know exactly what that means. What's it mean, Brandy?

Well, see, that's what happens when someone's real bad. You have to call them by all three of their names so that a poor other guy who has that same name doesn't get mixed up in there. So this man was Michael Carlton Sims. Yeah, it doesn't get mixed up in there. Yeah. So this man was Michael Carlton Sims. I'm sorry, I called him Michael. What's his name? Mitchell. Sorry. Off to a rocky start.

I don't think that has a great flow to it. Just, you know, I know his parents aren't asking me. Mitchell Carlton. You think that's where the story goes wrong? Exactly. That's the whole problem here. His name had no flow to it. And there we go.

Yeah. The end. The end. Mitch was raised in Columbia, South Carolina. You know, we grew up with a Mitch. Yeah. He was a douchebag, too. He sure was. I'm stalling again, but I could not stop thinking about him. Yeah. Looked him up on Facebook. He

appears to still be douchey. He's, you know, I haven't thought about him in years. I hadn't either. One of the few people I have on Facebook still. Yeah. Anyway, Mitch was raised in Columbia, South Carolina, and he had a terrible childhood, like the worst childhood. We'll get into it more later, but his stepfather sexually, physically, and verbally abused him. It is terrible. It was an awful existence. Could we not get into it later? We're going to, and this is your warning, ma'am. So when Mitch was 18, he was like, goodbye, I'm getting the fuck out of here, and I'm joining the army.

Human ashtray out. But here's a fun story. Brandy, I can tell you'd like to hear a love story right now. I see it in your beautiful blue peepers. Well, fine. Here's a fairy tale for you. Straight from a Hallmark movie. While Mitch was in the army, he started hooking up with a lady. And he fell in love.

But oopsies, that lady was married to a military officer. What was young Mitch to do? They had to be together forever. But this husband was standing in the way. A cock block, if you will. Do you disapprove of my use of the word cock block? I do. Is it two words?

Phrase. I think it's two words, yeah. Is it hyphenated? No, that's only if it's an adjective to something. Is that for real? Usually you hyphenate when something's acting as the adjective. This got nerdy fast, didn't it? You didn't think it would be kind of nerdy, did you?

The nerdiest conversation about cock-blocking that's ever taken place. Brandy, what do you do? You're in love with a lady. She's married. You probably kill her husband. Interesting choice. You probably kill her husband. Interesting choice. You don't do that. Oh, okay.

Mitch came up with an ingenious plan to make his fairy tale come true. He asked his buddy to shoot him in the leg. What? And like any good friend would, the guy shot Mitch in the leg. How was that helping him get the girl? Hold on, hold on, we're getting there. Then Mitch blamed the shooting on his girlfriend's husband. OMG, that dude shot me. Lock him up and throw away the key. It was attempted murder, I tell you. Oh, what's this? Now I can be with my dream woman forever?

Worth it. That was a terrible plan. Ouch. That was a terrible plan. Yeah, it was kind of the Lucy and Ethel plan for getting rid of your girlfriend's husband, and it just didn't work. Yeah. Somehow investigators saw through this scheme. I wish I knew more about it, because

I'm sure he didn't even, like, check to see if the if the husband was like at home, wouldn't have an alibi. So not only did Mitch get shot in the leg, but he also got in huge trouble with the military. The military gave him a dishonorable discharge and they sent him to prison for like five seconds. And when he got out of prison in 1980 he was 20 years old now brandy i know you hate it when a love story turns sour yeah well don't worry because when 20 year old mitch got out of prison he went back back to Columbia, South Carolina, and he found love again with a 16-year-old. Oh, no.

Don't worry. They'd been friends for a long time. That's somehow worse. I agree. I agree. None of these stories, like, no one else seems to care about the age gap, which I just have to accept. I'm the only one who cares. But all these places are like, they were childhood friends. That's weirder. No one else seems to care about the age gap, which I just have to accept. I'm the only one who cares.

But all these places are like, they were childhood friends. That's weirder. That's weirder. Yes. Anyway, Mitch and Teresa got married and they had three sons together. Things were really looking up for Mitch and his child bride. Mitch had never really been one for stable employment or stable anything. But by March of 1984, he hit it big. He got a job at Domino's. So suck on that, haters. Just a few months later, Mitch enrolled in Domino's management training program.

Oh, that's right. That's right. He was management material. You were also management material. So you and Mitch have that in common. Thank you. Did you go into a management training program? Or were you just thrown into the job?

Did you go into a management training program or were you just thrown into the job? So when I went through management training after I was promoted to manager. Okay. Yeah. All right. And really it was more training about like, it wasn't training about like, you know, how to manage people. Yeah. It was training about how to train people because we had it's really boring and nobody gives a shit

so let's just continue. You've been cut off. I was born by my own story. That's really sick when we are born by our own stories. You know it's bad

when we're like, no, this must stop. I have to say the listeners. So in January of 1985, Mitch became the manager of a Domino's in West Columbia, South Carolina.

In West Columbia, the boat erased. Things were great. Just great. For 12 seconds. Then he started cheating on his wife with a woman he hired to work at the Domino's, which

I feel like the management training program should have told him not to do that. But anyway. Then Mitch got into a little fight with his boss. program should have told him not to do that. But anyway. Then, Mitch got into a little fight with his boss. The exact disagreement is a little unclear

to me, but it seems that Mitch thought he was entitled to a certain bonus, and his boss said that he wasn't. And don't worry, the human ashtray handled this just fine. I bet he did. By that, I mean he flipped the fuck out. Mitch, who didn't exactly have the best people skills, got together with all the other employees, and he was like, let's stage a coup!

Let's all resign together and protest! Ready, break! And everyone else was like, no thanks. Everyone except for the girlfriend, Debra. Yeah. She did protest with him in solidarity, and it'll shock you to learn that their protest of two did not work. So Mitch had to step it up a notch. Like Emeril.

Bam. You kind of stumbled over that. Yeah, it was just like Emeril. Yeah. Mitch is just like Emeril. Bam. You kind of stumbled over that. Yeah, it was just like Emeril. Yeah. Mitch is just like, poor Emeril. In May, he sent a formal letter to Domino's corporate. In that letter, he explained how his boss was a bag of dicks. And, you know, he really thought that they'd see this letter and decide to fire his boss.

No, instead they're like, well, this employee's like a loony tune. Yeah. We thought he was management material. Domino's corporate, it'll dismay you to hear, did not even reply to Mitch's letter. It was almost as if they had bigger fish to fry or bigger pizzas to bake. No. Yes.

Yes. No. You're going to have to take the jokes where they fucking come, okay? There are no jokes in this. That was one. Mitch was very pissed off. So finally, on May 12, 1985, he decided that he'd had enough of the disrespect.

So he quit. He told Debra, the girlfriend, that if he was still in the Army, he'd rig the front door of the Domino's with a bunch of explosives and just hope that his boss was the one who opened that door and got blown to pieces. Right. What's wrong, Brandy? Being in the Army would have helped him with that? I guess he would have had access to the explosives.

Oh, right, right, right, right, right. Okay. But unfortunately, because he was dishonorably discharged from the army, this great man was no longer able to just get explosives. It's a shame. Any old time, I guess. Okay. I say that as if the army has like

ye olde explosives shop and everyone's just welcome to get whatever they need. But don't worry. Mitch didn't do that. It might be like... I'm sorry. I have an accidental hilarious typo in here.

What? I was supposed to say he was far too level-headed. Guess what I said. Did you say he was far too level-headed? Hilarious! Bazing! People think the humor on this podcast is too sophisticated. That's the review we get most often. That's what we get the most is it's too white-collar, too fancy.

This is me trying to work blue, as they say in the biz. I, myself, am above the fart joke. I'm not working blue, but you told dirty jokes. I did. Fart. That's dirty. I also mentioned cock blocks earlier. Yeah, I'm delivering on the promise.

Do you have any fart jokes in your case? No. Didn't think so. Okay. Wow, you didn't even give me time to answer. I've heard your scripts before. Not once have you mentioned farts. So Mitch ended up working just a bunch of odd jobs.

But the thing is, nothing paid quite like Domino's. The one that got away. Mitch's life officially sucked, and it was all Domino's fault. None of that was on him. No, no, it was all Domino's fault. You heard the story. Right, I did. I'm sorry.

Mitch had three kids and a wife and no money. And his girlfriend had dumped him because she thought he was being a real weirdo, and she was kind of freaked out by all the violent talk about dominoes. Yeah. Naturally, under all that pressure and stress, he had no choice but to have another affair. He had an affair with Ruby Padgett, who was like 18 or 19, and Ruby, of course, had a really rough background too. One story I read said that she had witnessed her dad shoot her mom.

Yeah. She'd run away from home. She had problems with substance abuse. But her troubles were behind her because she'd found love with Mitch Carlton Sims. Yay! Yay! love with Mitch Carlton Sims. Yay! So, as is page one of every love story ever, the hero ditched his wife and kids and moved into a trailer in North Charleston with his new girlfriend.

And man, once it was just Mitch and Ruby, it was shots, shots, shots, shots, shots, shots, everybody! They were drinking and drinking and drinking. Once it was just Mitch and Ruby, it was shots, shots, shots, shots, shots, shots. Everybody. They were drinking and drinking and drinking. And oh, my God. I've told you how the show Vengeance Killer Coworkers. It's a bit much sometimes. Reenactments. The reenactment.

OK. When you think of someone drinking heavily, what do you picture? I don't know. Okay. Okay. Just like bottles? Sure. Yeah.

In this reenactment of a woman, this actress was drinking directly from a bottle of Bombay Sapphire. I don't think that's what people are doing. No. No. No one's doing that. So she's got the Bombay Sapphire, which, okay. And then we cut from that to a talking head explaining that Ruby liked to drink and she also liked to do marijuana. You don't.

She did it. She do the marijuana. I want to do the marijuana, which is a dance. Obviously, to the tune of the Macarena. Hey, marijuana. So that's the kind of hardcore shit we were dealing with. So that's the kind of hardcore shit we were dealing with. But as great as that sounds, with all the gin and all the doing of the marijuana, there was trouble in paradise.

No one is drinking gin straight from the bottle. And if they are, it's not Bombay Sapphire. I'm sorry. That's the good shit, right? Yeah. That's pretty good stuff. Yeah. You're not going to Costco. have like the McCormick's

like jug of vodka. Isn't that? Even then, you've got a seltzer. You've got something to cut that with. I mean, if you're going to drink anything straight, I don't know that gin would be it. Yeah. You like gin.

I do like gin. I have never once been like, you know what? What this needs to get rid of any kind of mixer. Oh, but then again, I have never done marijuana and then drank the gin. Maybe that's the magical combination. Yep. So there was trouble in paradise. See, Ruby didn't have a job, and Bombay Sapphire by the Jug cost money. Oh, it was a lot of pressure on Mitch to provide for his teenage lover. So in November of 1985, Mitch swallowed his pride, and he begrudgingly applied for a new job at Domino's. Right when you were born. Oh, yeah.

Aw, Mitch. He celebrated your birth by applying for a job at Domino's. Thanks, Mitch. Not the same Domino's he'd quit from, mind you, because he did have some respect for himself. Far too much respect for himself. He applied to a Domino's in Hanahan, South Carolina, which was like right by where they lived. And I guess Domino's didn't check references or have any kind of douchebag database because they hired him right away and he got to work delivering pizzas. I have a theory. What's that?

Could have been a different franchisee. I'm sure it was. Lots of Domino's are franchised. Different owner. They wouldn't have even... Have you been planted by Domino's corporate to fact check this episode? Actually, Domino's does check references. I have a Domino's uniform on under my to fact check this episode.

Actually, Domino's does check references. I have a Domino's uniform on under my shirt here, Kristen. You don't know how scary that is, but you will in about 45 minutes. Oh, no. That's a little foreshadowing. You seriously don't know how scary that was? Well, I'll be in on the joke in a minute.

Not really a joke. Okay, sorry. Anyway, I should never do cases like this. I can't handle it. I don't have the nuts. No nuts. No nuts. After just a few weeks on the job, Mitch's truck broke down.

He was screwed. He couldn't afford to fix his truck, which meant he couldn't deliver pizzas. He'd had it. He had no food. He had no job. His pet's heads were falling off. What was Mitch to do? Our pet's heads are falling off!

Everyone, that was a hilarious movie reference. No pets. Well, I bet you Mitch took the head off a pet at some point in his life. But that's not something I found in the research. Anyway. Just an assumption. Just an assumption. Just a feeling.

Just a feeling. So what was Mitch to do, Brandy? Keeping in mind, of course, that this was all Domino's fault somehow. Yeah, it's still Domino's fault. Yes, still. Yeah. Well, you've told us that this was a real bad, so I guess he's going to just go like on a killing spree at a Domino's. That would certainly solve the problem, wouldn't it? Yes, it sure would.

No. I'll tell you what he did. But we're going to fast forward a bit to December 4th, 1985. It was a little after... Kristen was one month and two days old. Oh my god, no one cares! You guys

do care, don't you? I care so much. I thought you were so cute. I have the chubby cheeks! The biggest cheeks in all the land. But not big ass cheeks. Think on that for a while, why don't you? See, London got it both covered. See?

London's got big old cheeks on her face and she got the cutest little plump baby butt. Now, I am jealous of a baby. Both because of the attention she gets and because she has the plump baby butt. I mean, look at her fucking parents, Kristen. She had no choice but to be gorgeous. I meant that we both have big butts. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you...

You two do have big butts. We do And that just pisses me off too You know I realize you had to live through the 90s And the early 2000s Where big butts were not okay And they didn't fit in any jeans Low rise jeans

But now you're really living the life Aren't you Meanwhile I have to stuff Kleenex down the back of my pants Low-rise jeans. But now you're really living the life, aren't you? Right. Hmm. Meanwhile, I have to stuff Kleenex down the back of my pants. Do you think they make, like... Yeah, they make butt pads. Oh, God, I'd be too humiliated. You wear... No, it's like a picture of Spanx situation.

Picturing it. With butt pads. Yeah, I would be humiliated. Remember the time when we were out and we saw a woman who clearly had something fake in the back? Mm-hmm. Situation. Picturing it. With butt. Yeah, I would be humiliated. Remember the time when we were out and we saw a woman who clearly had something fake in the back? Norm to this day does not believe us. Well, that's because he's a man, and he's like, I don't want to believe that that's fake. I want to believe that that woman is 100% real. Okay, so anyway, let's get back to the terrible story.

I don't know why I was posing. December 4th, 1985. I do love your hair today. Do you really? I do. You know who you look like? Who? It'd be really funny if you said David Duchovny or something.

No, you look like Julia Stiles. Specifically. Ten things I hate about you? Ten things I hate about you when she goes to prom. With Heath Ledger? Yes. The most beautiful man in all the world.

If you had a rose stuck right up there in your little updo today. And you know, I had one until you showed up. And I had to use it to rip that wax off my lip. I did wax my stash like I was headed to prom. People are really going to hate these things. I know. They're really going to. I listen for the stories.

Don't worry, darling. There's other true crime podcasts. They're going to hate that, too. Yeah. Will they love that I don't have a hairy mustache anymore? I do think they'll like that. Okay. Yeah, I think everyone will.

Okay. And it's also, today's the anniversary of when 10 Things I Hate About You was released. Are you? In 1999. How do you know these? I just saw it on Facebook today. Okay. So you had 10 Things I Hate About You on the brain.

Yeah, but that's legit what you look like. Thank you. You guys, so just so you guys can picture it with me. Kristen obviously wore her hair down yesterday. Yes, it's true. In a curl, it looks. And then today, she's taken those curls and she has piled them

atop her head. And they're just kind of falling in tendrils. Angelically. It is beautiful. You would think that angel has fallen from heaven. That's exactly what I thought.

And she's put on a vest from Costco. As angels often do. It's to cover up the glow. If you took that vest off right now, just... That's what would happen. All right, enough! Okay.

It's December 4th, 1985. It's like you just knew. This was the calm before the storm. It's about to get terrible. And now there are no fun. There are no fun. There is no fun, laughs or good times. OK.

Anyway, it was a little after 2 a.m. when a man stumbled into the Hanahan, South Carolina police station. He was covered in blood. He'd been shot four times in the head. Oh, my gosh. Yes. He's walking into the police station? Walking might be a strong word. Okay.

He could barely speak because blood had pooled in his mouth. A phone cord hung from his wrists. He was wearing a Domino's pizza uniform and he cried out for help. And I believe he collapsed onto the floor. This, I mean, I don't know if I already said this, but the Domino's was not far away from the police station at all. So this guy got himself there and just collapsed. This man, Gary Melke, was an assistant manager at the local Domino's. He'd somehow gotten himself

to the station and police called an ambulance and they got Gary to the hospital and hospital staff immediately did what they could do to save him. In the meantime, officers went to the dominoes because clearly something had happened there. And holy shit, when they arrived, it was pandemonium.

There was blood everywhere. The cords had been ripped out of the phones. The cash register was wide open. The safe was open. There was no money to be found. And when officers got to the back of the store, they found a man in a Domino's uniform dead on the floor. He'd been shot in the head. His hands were tied behind his back with phone cord. That man was 24-year-old Chris Zare. He'd been a delivery driver for Domino's. Okay so this scene this scene was so disturbing and so strange. Who could have done this and why? Yeah. Well it didn't take long to figure out the answer because back at the hospital staff were working on Gary. He'd been shot in the temple, in the jaw, at the base of his skull, and in his neck.

Oh my gosh. I didn't write this part down, but as the ambulance was heading to the hospital, one of the paramedics said, you're going to make it, you're going to be okay. And he said, I don't believe you. Oh my gosh. He was in terrible shape, but he could speak a little bit. They cleared the blood from his mouth, and a paramedic asked Gary if he knew who'd shot him. And Gary said, Sims. Mitch Sims.

Oh, my gosh. Gary told the paramedic that Mitch had tied him up and murdered Chris Sayre. Then an officer walked in, and he was like, hey, do you know who shot you? And poor Gary was like, I'm in pain. Like he starts just screaming in pain. And the officer was like, come on, man. And finally, Gary was like, Mitch Sims. And he described Mitch to the officer.

Mitch wasn't a friend. He was just some weird new guy at work. But that was all investigators needed. Gary had given them the shooter's full name plus a description, and police were able to get the manager of Domino's on the phone, and the manager pulled Mitch's application and gave them Mitch's address. Great. A horrible crime had occurred, one man was dead,

but Gary had survived and now police had all they needed to go make an arrest. Am I right? I don't think it's going to go that well. Is the tone of my voice giving it all away? So they took off for the trailer park where Mitch lived with his girlfriend, Ruby. But, well, it was dark out. It was pretty late. And, you know, it was just kind of hard to figure out which trailer Mitch lived in.

So they all went home. And the next morning they got a search warrant and some daylight. And they went to Mitch and Ruby's trailer and boom, busted in. And wouldn't you know it, they were too late. What does that mean? Mitch and Ruby were gone. Where'd they go? Far away.

Which, the thing I don't understand is like, they dropped that fact, and I'm like, am I missing something? Yeah. I would really like to know more because it just sounds like you just gave up. I mean, how many times does someone murder someone? Another person survives. Yeah. You get the person's name. You get their address. You get a description of them. Yeah, like right off the bat. Yeah. You get the person's name. You get their address.

You get a description of them. Yeah, like right off the bat. Yeah. And like you couldn't find his address, but you knew the trailer park he lived in and you just left. I really hope I'm missing something. Yeah. But I never am, is the thing. So Mitch and Ruby were gone.

You know, it was almost as if police shouldn't have gone home and started again in the morning. So police were like, yikes, we really screwed the pooch on this one, boys. And they sent pictures of Mitch to every media outlet under the sun. And they were like, hey, everyone, be on the lookout for this guy. And if you somehow get his address, don't wake us up. We need our beauty rest. We keep bankers hours. They didn't really say that.

I'm saying that because I'm very sassy. Julia Stiles was very sassy in that movie. She was. So really, I'm just channeling her yeah and if you don't like the sass talk to julia styles about it so you know everyone's looking for mitch and ruby but no one could spot them anywhere at some point they got word that mitch might have left charleston on a bus so the police reached out to their mayor, and they were like, Mayor, could you please call the FBI? We would do this ourselves.

But it's required to come from the mayor. Yeah, everyone knows it's not allowed. Only the mayor can call the FBI. And so the mayor called the FBI. I was legitimately like, what the fuck are they calling the mayor for? Yeah, it's weird, isn't it, Brandi? Because you know deep down down there is no protocol.

So the FBI gets a call from the mayor and they're like, thank you for following protocol. And then they agreed to get involved in the case. Excellent. Very good. In the meantime, Gary got out of surgery, but he'd been through too much and he didn't make it. This was a horrible tragedy. Two men had been murdered. One of them had survived long enough to tell the police who'd carried out this horrible crime, and now the murderer was on the run.

What made it even more sad was that Chris and Gary were just two 24-year-old guys who'd gotten jobs at Domino's to make ends meet. Chris was from Oakley, Kansas, and Gary was from Moorhead City, North Carolina, and they were really good friends. They'd met in the Navy, and they'd worked together in the Naval Hospital, but evidently those jobs didn't pay a lot, so they just got these part-time jobs at Domino's to kind of, you know, make life a little easier. They were just two young guys trying to live their lives. And then this new employee had come into the store one night, stolen eleven hundred

bucks, wiped the place down for prints and shot them. The only good news was that Mitch Sims picture was everywhere. Surely he'd get caught soon. OK, the only complicated thing. and this is just my personal opinion, Mitch, to me, is one of these people who looks wildly different from photo to photo. Oh, a real chameleon. That's right. As they say.

Chama, chama, chama, chama, chama chameleon. Do you know that that's not the word? It's not? That's right. As they say. Cama, cama, cama, cama, cama chameleon. Do you know that that's not the word? It's not? What is it? What is it? What is the word? It's karma chameleon.

Really? That doesn't make sense. Karma, karma, karma, karma, karma chameleon. Really? Because they want the chameleon to catch some karma? I don't know. You know, I do this all the time with some lyrics. What was that?

There was a Cher song that was like, I don't need your sympathy. I thought it was, I don't need your silver things. I thought it was like anti-capitalism. And I was singing along to it one day and Kyla made fun of me. Anyhow. This is bringing back some childhood trauma. So, in some pictures, Mitch

had like dark floppy hair and in others, he had like Ronald McDonald hair. If Ronald McDonald's hair was the color of chestnuts and not Flamin' Hot Cheetos, you know, just picture it. I can picture it. Mitch also had big sad Eeyore eyes. And one of those little mustaches that had like a little bald line down the Cupid's bow. Yeah, I don't understand those mustaches.

Did he just not grow hair there, maybe? Okay, okay. Here's why he's a karma, karma, karma, karma, karma chameleon. In one picture, I saw the little patch there, and I was like, oh, well, he just can't grow hair there, because why would you do that intentionally? But then in another picture, I saw he had hair there. Maybe he filled it in with an eyebrow pencil. Okay, here's a question.

Do many men fill in with pencil, do you think? No, I don't think so. I mean, you're saying no, but maybe. Maybe they do. I don't know. I mean, it could be like one of those things where men don't know how much we bleed every month like if you if you had to ask the average man how much yeah he'd be like i don't know a gallon jug a bottle of bombay sapphire who knows

so i'm wondering if these are just things we don't know. Maybe they don't. Maybe we don't know. I doubt it, though. Seems like a lot of work. Yeah. If I were a dude, I'd be real low maintenance. I wouldn't be waxing my mustache. If I were a boy. Well, what is it, Beyonce?

What would you do? So people were looking for Mitch, but they were most likely looking in the wrong place. Because on December 8th, 1985, just four days after the shooting at the South Carolina Domino's, Mitch and Ruby walked into a Domino's in Glendale, California. They hadn't had enough at the previous Domino's? Mm-hmm. Oh, no.

They approached Corey Spiroff, the assistant manager, and asked him for directions to a drugstore. Corey gave him directions, and Mitch and Ruby left. It was all pretty uneventful. The next day, Mitch and Ruby entered a Sears in Glendale. They bought underwear, socks, a clothesline, and a knife. Mitch was agitated as they shopped. He was visibly nervous. The salesperson overheard Ruby tell Mitch to relax. She was like, we'll leave the store soon. And soon enough they did. Then came that evening. That night started off like any other for the

Domino's in Glendale. 19-year-old assistant manager Corey Spiroff was working that night, plus two delivery drivers, 41-year-old Ed Siam and 21-year-old John Harrigan. So, you know, they're just kind of doing their thing, whatever, it's a normal night. And at around 11.30, John left the store to make a delivery, and Corey and Ed stayed behind. Things were winding down, and by like 11.45, Corey and Ed were preparing to close. Corey was in the back of the store when he heard someone come through the front. He figured it was John coming back from the last delivery. But it wasn't John. It was a couple.

It was the same couple who'd asked for directions to the drugstore the day before. Corey started to tell the couple that the store was closed, but before he could even get the words out, the man pulled a gun and calmly said, go back in the office. At that point, the man spotted Ed and told Ed to go back too. The woman pulled out a large butcher knife and started collecting all the money.

Corey was freaked out and he warned them, Hey, if you hear someone come in the store, don't panic. It's just our delivery driver, John. He's due back any minute now. And the man laughed. He took off his sweater and revealed that he was wearing a Domino's delivery uniform with John's name tag on it. And the man said, no, I don't think so. Okay, this is why I freaked out when you said you were going to take off your sweatshirt.

He ordered Corey and Ed to kneel down and face the wall, and he held his gun on them. Corey and Ed thought they were going to die. But at that exact moment, they heard someone walk into the store. A voice said, is anybody here? And Corey turned to the gunman and said, what do you want me to do? And the gunman said, don't do anything stupid or I'm going to blow this guy away. And he pointed the gun at Ed. And so Corey went out there and saw his friend, Richard Wagner. Okay, so some sources say just Richard was there. Other sources say Richard was there with his wife. say just Richard was there. Other sources say Richard was there with his wife. But anyway,

Richard actually worked at Domino's, but it was his night off and he'd come in at close because I assume they were all going to hang out after work. Right. And because he worked there, Richard had actually come back behind the counter. So Corey approached Richard and instead of being like, oh, hey, buddy, how are you? He was like, sir, please step back behind the counter. Welcome to Domino's. May I take your order? And Richard looked at Corey like, what the fuck? Yes. Yes. And Corey just gave him this hardcore look and said, what would you like to order? I've got goosebumps. Yeah. As this was happening, Mitch walked out of the out to the front wearing the dominoes uniform. He didn't appear to have his gun on him. He was smoking a cigarette.

So Richard wasn't sure what the hell was going on, but he knew something was wrong. He looked at that weird guy smoking the cigarette and he thought to himself, OK, that guy does not work here. But he turned to his friend, Corey, and he played along. He's like, yeah, I'd like to order a pizza. He put in his pizza order. So Corey took the order and was like, all right, sir, just wait outside and I'll bring you your pizza when it's done. Meanwhile, the phone rang and Mitch answered it. Wearing his name tag that said John, he said, thank you for calling Domino's.

This is Mitch. How may I help you? Fucking idiot. So Richard skedaddled out of there and went to his car and sat there. And pretty soon Mitch came out and handed him his pizza. It was all super weird. Weird enough that Richard got to a pay phone and he called his manager and he was like, hey, who's working tonight? Did you hire somebody new? And the manager said no. And Richard was okay I gotta go and he hung up and called 9-1-1 he told the dispatcher look you know something weird is happening at Domino's and he told the dispatcher what he'd seen by this point the store appeared to be vacant but it wasn't because as soon as Richard had left the store, Mitch and Ruby continued with their plan. Ruby got all the money and wiped the place for prints, and Mitch escorted Corey and Ed to the walk-in cooler.

In the cooler, there was a three-tiered rack. Mitch tied Corey's hands behind his back, then looped the rope over the rack and pulled it down so that his hands were up like uncomfortably high behind his back. Then Mitch looped the rope around Corey's neck. Corey had to stand on the tips of his toes just to keep breathing. Oh my gosh. Mitch then did the same thing to Ed. At one point, Ed complained that he could barely breathe, and Mitch said, at least you're alive. Corey and Ed were terrified, and they wanted to know what had happened to John. What had this man done to John? So Corey said, where's John?

And Mitch said, they'll find him after they find you. And with that, Mitch and Ruby left Corey and Ed tied up in the walk-in cooler. Both men were in tremendous pain. They began to go numb from the cold. Their calves began to tighten. Corey tried to knock over some boxes so that they could stand on them, but every time he tried, the rope got tighter around his neck. Finally, he knocked one over, and he and Ed were able to stand on it, and it alleviated some of the tension in the rope. But they were still in so much pain, and they were so fucking cold.

Yeah. They weren't sure they'd be able to make it until the restaurant opened the next day, but thank God they didn't have to find out. Thanks to Richard's phone call, pretty soon the police busted in there, found the two men hanging, and cut them down. Can you imagine? No. Once they got Corey and Ed down and warmed up, Corey gave them the address of John's last delivery. John's last delivery had been to room 205 of the Regalodge Motel. I tried googling. Didn't find anything. Well, no, I did find some, but I couldn't be sure that it was. Yeah. Anyway, the motel was a three-minute drive from Domino's. So police arrived at the motel room and no one answered the door.

So they got the manager to open the room for them. And once they were in there, they heard water running in the bathroom. They rushed back to the bathroom and discovered John Harrigan laying in the bathtub, fully submerged. He'd been hogtied and gagged and a pillowcase covered his head. There would later be some debate over whether it was strangulation or drowning that killed him. Does it matter? That's how I feel. Either way, he was dead. At some point in the investigation, police in Glendale called Domino's corporate and told them what had happened. the investigation, police in Glendale called Domino's Corporate and told them what had happened.

And Domino's was like, whoa, this sounds very similar to an incident at one of our stores in South Carolina. And they told police about Mitch Sims and Ruby Padgett. So they knew who'd done this. But when investigators searched the motel room, they didn't get much. The place had been scrubbed clean. Finally, they found two fingerprints. They found Mitch's thumbprint on the inside of the toilet paper roll. Oh, wow. Uh-huh. And they found his print on a page in the phone book.

You want to guess which page? Domino's? Yep. in the phone book. You want to guess which page? Domino's? Yep. At some point,

they showed Corey and Ed pictures of possible suspects and they both ID'd Mitch Sims. So, I mean, this was game on. This story got huge national media coverage and Mitch and Ruby were dubbed the Dollar Store Bonnie and Clyde. Not really.

That's just what I'm calling them because I think they're stupid okay are you serious yeah no one called them the dollar store body and class didn't do anything at the dollar store you know you know what i mean by dollar like wishes like that came from Wish.com. Yeah, because like somebody. Yeah, that would have been better. They were dubbed the Wish.com Bonnie and Clyde.

You would say that doesn't make sense. No, that would have made way more sense. Because one of these shows, I can't remember which one, said they were like Bonnie and Clyde. I was like, bullshit, they were like Bonnie and Clyde. Are you kidding me? These two? I think not. You're very protective of the memory of Bonnie and Clyde, Kristen.

I don't really know much about them, but I picture them. There's a certain glamour. I don't think they wore sloppy sweats as they went around with their maiden. No, they were always dressed to the nines. Respect. It's a court of law. Were they murderers? They were murderers. Why am I being this way?

That's exactly what I'm asking! I don't know. I'm a troubled soul. I had hairs ripped out of me today. You did it to yourself, ma'am. It's the worst kind of torture. The FBI shared pictures of Mitch and Ruby and spread the word that the couple was likely driving around in John Harrigan's Toyota truck.

Yeah. With all that media coverage plus a $100,000 reward from Domino's, it didn't take long to find Mitch and Ruby. A security guard at a Las Vegas casino noticed an abandoned truck in a casino parking lot. The truck belonged to John Harrigan. It had been totally wiped down, but inside it, investigators found John's uniform and name tag. This became huge news. The pizza killers were in Las Vegas. This became huge news. The pizza killers were in Las Vegas. Then, a little before midnight on Christmas Eve, police received an anonymous tip that Mitch and Ruby were in a cheap motel.

Mitch had registered for the room under the name Jeff Richardson. So police went to the motel at around 2 a.m. with a picture of Mitch. And one of the motel workers was like, well, I mean, that could be him. So police surrounded the motel room with guns drawn and they knocked. And Mitch answered the door and he put his hands up and Ruby was just sitting on the bed. Both of them were pretty quiet. It was a very easy arrest. Really? Mm-hmm.

What? That's weird. What were you expecting from Dollar Store Bonnie and Clyde? Well, if it was Wish.com's Bonnie and Clyde, I would say that they'd, you know,

go down like a hail of gunfire. And that's what they were expecting. So they had, like, they had the place surrounded, but I guess they kind of figured, mm-hmm, we've been caught. Yeah. Okay.

They went out for drinks with some random guy. And the random guy was the one who... Tipped off the... Yeah. I mean, why can't you drink alone is what I say. Yeah. Get your Bombay Sapphire and just... I drink alone.

I like to be by myself it's a George Thorogood song it's like is this bad poetry is this like confession time I don't understand when investigators searched the room

they found the cash bag from the Glendale robbery and a gun under the mattress they also found pages from a phone book room, they found the cash bag from the Glendale robbery and a gun under the mattress. They also found pages from a phone book with Domino's restaurants circled. Under questioning, Mitch was tight-lipped. But Ruby? Not so much. Kids these days. She squealed like a piggy. She told them everything, according to her. Starting with the Glendale murder, she talked about how they'd cased that Domino's,

then gone out and bought rope and a knife, and that night they'd ordered pizza to their room. And as soon as John delivered it, Mitch attacked him. He kneed him in the stomach, pulled a gun on him, and robbed him. John was totally compliant compliant i imagine he thought well this is just a robbery um yeah it'd be over soon enough yeah according to ruby mitch didn't want to shoot john because he was afraid of the noise it might draw attention to them so mitch tied john's hands behind his back put put a sock in John's mouth, and tied a rag around his mouth so that he could barely breathe. Then he filled the tub with water

and put John in it. Ruby claimed that Mitch held John under the water until he was dead. She claimed not to have helped in any way. Of course. she claimed not to have helped in any way of course with ruby and mitch under arrest it was time for justice but who would serve up the justice first so yes opposite coasts here fighting who deserves it brandy oh yeah i know right so south carolina wanted to go first but of course so did california and ruby and mitch who really didn't want to get the death penalty really wanted to stay in california and that turned out to be a brilliant plan because once their trials ended in california south carolina just plumb forgot about the double homicide at their dominoes oh excellent yeah did they not have the death penalty?

No, they did. But, you know, read the room. I mean, you're for sure going to die in South Carolina. Maybe not in California. They're just taking their chances. Fun fact about South Carolina. All the boiled peanuts and the pimento cheese makes people forgetful. That's how they forgot about the

double. That insider knowledge about South Carolina there. You ever had pimento cheese? Yeah. It's like cheese with little pimentos in it, right? And you spread it on a cracker. It's like spreadable cheese. Okay. So here's the thing. One time when I was in North Carolina, see, I'd never heard of pimento cheese. I'd never even seen it before. And we were at some potluck thing and I just saw a big bowl of it. So I just, you know, I'm polite, you know, so I take some of everything that everybody's brought

and I just start eating this pimento cheese with a fork. You didn't put it on a cracker? I had no idea! I had no idea what you were supposed to do with it! You know? It's like a cheeseer. I had no idea. I had no idea what you were supposed to do with it. You know? It's like a cheese spread. Someone Did you, then did you see somebody

over in the corner like spreading it nicely on a cracker and you're like, oh. Someone very politely was like Okay, so I'm trying to remember what exactly happened. Someone saw me do that and was like, that's not the way you eat that.

And someone else was like, well, you know, some people spread that on cracker. Other people eat it plain, which is like the most polite way of being like, I've never in my life seen anyone eat it plain. Anyway. You know, I can't specifically ever remember a time eating pimento cheese. I have no idea where this knowledge of it being a cheese spread comes from. It's like how you say cement. Like there's just some southern stuff that's just in you. I just absorbed it organically from my mom.

Yep. So California got the first crack at these two. Ruby faced life in prison and Mitch faced the death penalty. Ruby and Mitch's defense teams agreed it would be best if they had separate trials. So Ruby's trial began in January of 1987. And the prosecution argued that Ruby had been an active participant in the entire crime. They argued that John's murder would have been too difficult for Mitch to pull off on his own. They didn't think Mitch could have hogtied John, dragged him to the bathtub and lifted him into it by himself. What do you think? I think he probably could have. I kind of agree. Yeah. I think killers do that all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so Mitch was a pretty big dude. Ruby was just a little bitty thing. Yeah. I don't know how helpful she would have been. Yeah. I don't think that's a great argument. Yeah. Never could have pulled it off

without... Yeah. Although, Women's History Month. She could have done it. It's the... Although, Women's History Month. She could have done it. Don't worry. It's the last day of Women's History Month. We have not covered any cases that uplift women in any way. No. Nope.

Sure haven't. We've evolved past all that. We've got equal pay now. Do what? And rape is done. That's done. What world are you living in? I'm living in a delusional world.

The same one where I thought I didn't have a mustache for the longest time. It was a wonderful place. They argued Mitch had to have had help from Ruby. They, of course, called Corey and Ed to the stand, and both men shared their experiences about how Ruby had held a knife on them.

And at one point, Ruby had actually held a gun on Ed. That was when Mitch and, yeah, Corey were out front. So that obviously looked real bad for Ruby. Yeah. The fact that she'd held a gun on one of the guys and held a knife on both of them sure made it seem like she was pretty actively involved. It sure does. So under cross-examination, the defense asked Ed if she'd verbally threatened him. And he was like, well, no, but, I mean, she held a gun on me.

Yeah. The gun did the talking. Picking up a lot of silent clips. I'm a pretty sharp guy. And then the defense kept pressing him on whether like she'd actually threatened him.

And finally Ed said what other kind of threat do you want? Which yeah I agree. Someone's got a knife on me. They've got a gun on me. They don't need to say scary shit. I'm scared, okay? I've already pooped my pants.

Someone put a poop in my pants. Ruby's defense argued that she was in the motel room, but that she did not help with these crimes. She had no idea what Mitch had planned. Ruby took the stand in her own defense and claimed that Mitch had bullied her into being part of this scheme and that she'd only been a passive observer in John's murder. She hadn't even been in the bathroom when Mitch did whatever he did to John. She hadn't even been in the bathroom when Mitch did whatever he did to John. This contradicted what she'd initially told police about watching Mitch drown. So when pressed on this, she said that she'd only told police that because she wanted to really hurt Mitch by really implicating him in John's murder.

OK, what I think is so interesting about this whole thing, you and I both heard the prosecution say, oh, she couldn't, you know, Mitch couldn't have done this alone. Yeah. And we were both kind of like, maybe could have. Yeah. The jury felt the exact same way until they went on a field trip to the hotel room. Really? So, you know, the prosecution had claimed that she had to have helped John take John into the bathtub. And the jury didn't fully buy that. They thought, you know, surely Mitch could have done that on his own. But once they got into that hotel room, they were stunned by how narrow the doorway was into the bathroom. It was only like two feet wide. And Mitch was a big guy and they

didn't think he could have carried John in by himself. One of the jurors later said either he was dragged into that bathroom and she had every opportunity to say that and she didn't or she helped Sims by carrying Harrigan's feet or head. Oh, wow. Yeah. The jury deliberated for six days and ultimately found Ruby guilty of first-degree murder and armed robbery, but acquitted her on the two counts of attempted murder. She got life in prison without the possibility of parole because there'd been a special circumstance attached to John's murder, and that had been that Mitch and Ruby had been lying in wait for him, which they obviously had.

Yeah. The defense did highlight Ruby's own horrific experiences with childhood abuse, and the jury said that they felt sorry for her, but it just wasn't enough to mitigate what they felt she'd done. Not mitigate. You know what I mean. Yeah. Make an excuse for it.

A month later, in March of 1987, Mitch's trial began in California. The prosecution painted Mitch as an angry, vindictive killer who wanted revenge against Domino's, which had to be a real leap of imagination on their part since Mitch was such a lovely guy. They called to the stand Deborah Keenan, who'd worked with Mitch and dated him when he was the manager of Domino's, and she gave the jury all the hot Domino's drama and told them about how Mitch hated Domino's with a fiery passion. Okay okay she went into a lot of detail this guy i mean you know he's off his rocker but man the things he wanted to do to dominoes the thing that kind of amazes me is he seems to have been so mad at his boss he didn't

do anything to his boss yeah not that i'm mad about it but it just seems strange yeah misplaced rage whoops fudge stripes overdone rage because like yeah well yeah i mean you didn't get the bonus you thought you were gonna get what are we talking a couple hundred bucks dude that's not gonna buy you that much bombay sapphire i'll tell you that you're right if she's drinking it, glug, glug, glug. Yeah. By the handle. They don't make handles at Bombay Sapphire. I have no idea. That's right.

You're a representative for Domino's. You're not a representative for Bombay Sapphire. That's exactly right. These are things you don't know. Okay. I left my Bombay Sapphire uniform in the car. Quit freaking me out with that uniform stuff. She talked to them about how she eventually dumped Mitch because he was

freaking her the fuck out with all this talk about dominoes. Yeah, understood. And the defense got up and they were like, okay, but didn't you and Mitch drink a lot together and do drugs together? And she was like, yeah. And they were like, okay, so wasn't he just

super drunk when he said all that shit? Can't we just blame it on the alcohol? And she said, no, he was pretty sober when he said that shit. Which I don't really understand. He then went and did a bunch of stuff. So, I mean, even if he'd been

hitting the Bombay Sapphire, I'm sorry, this is probably terrible for their brand. We're never going to get. We're never getting a Bombay Sapphire sponsorship. Which is a shame because I admire their gin. But, I mean, does it matter if he's a little drunk if he then went and did a bunch of the craziest. Anyway, anyway, I rest my case. And the prosecution sat down. Mitch's defense attorneys focused on helping their client avoid the death penalty. I mean,

that's really your only option in these cases. His defense attorneys tried to argue that this hadn't been a trap. Nobody had been lying in wait. John had died, get this, by accident. Um, he was... Mitch never intended to kill John, Brandy, so wipe that look off your face. You ready for what really happened? Uh-huh. John died by accident when he struck his head on the bathtub and subsequently drowned. What was his head doing in the bathtub?

Yeah, exactly. Fuck off is what I say. Yeah. That is so ridiculous. Yeah. Because I mentioned there was some debate over was he strangled? Right. Well, he was strangled.

But was that what did it? What was the cause of death? Yes. Either way, he didn't put himself in that bathtub a good guy no anyway fuck off i say to that yes on may 20th 1987 after less than a day of deliberations the jury found mitch guilty at sentencing his defense brought forth mitch's family members who talked about the horrific abuse that Mitch suffered as a child. It's so bad.

And that really they'd all suffered at the hands of his stepdad, Arnold Cranford. They said that his stepdad physically, sexually, and verbally abused Mitch starting when he was very young. He forced Mitch to have sex with his own mother and sister. Oh my gosh. It, I mean, terrible, terrible stuff. They painted just a horrifying picture of what it had been like to live in that home. The defense hoped that hearing about Mitch's childhood would sway the jury into giving him life in prison without the possibility of parole, but it didn't. They unanimously recommended the death penalty. After that, Mitch went on trial in South Carolina for the double murder of Gary Melke and Chris Zare.

I'm going to do this one kind of fast just because, oh, dear God. With both victims dead, the prosecution was left to call the police officer and paramedic who talked to Gary before he died. They both said that Gary identified Mitch Sims as the man who'd attacked them and killed Chris. And, you know, at the risk of wrapping it up a little too soon, you should know that the jury found him guilty. And Mitch was also sentenced to death in South Carolina. I wasn't able to find much about what his defense said. I imagine once you've already gotten the death penalty in California,

you're kind of like, all right. Yeah. I'm sure they went the exact same route. Like, yeah, he did it, but look how terrible his childhood was. Maybe, maybe not. It honestly made me wonder because I was struck by, like, not it honestly made me wonder because i i was struck by like mitch's sister got up and i mean she just let all of her trauma hang out because obviously mitch was not the only one who was traumatized and so she told horrible stories about what had happened to her at the hands of her

stepdad um mitch's mom did the same thing told told the jury horrible things, all the worst things that had ever happened to her. And now that's just in a court record for anyone to look up. Part of me wonders, like, if you've already gotten the death penalty, do you put your family through that again? Right. I mean, I'm talking like Mitch has like a heart of gold. Right. But I don't know. Like I said, I wasn't able to find that.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I wasn't able to find like a huge defense for him. It looks like his trial in South Carolina went faster. Ruby and Mitch both, of course, appealed their sentences, but their appeals were unsuccessful and have been exhausted. Ruby remains in prison in California, and it seems like so does Mitch. And that's the awful story of a man who hated dominoes. Hells bells. Good God. That was terrible. Who made me do that? Only me. Yeah. No one recommended that. That should have been my first tip. No one has ever been like, hey, you should do this really fun case.

You should do this really terrible case. You'd love it because it happens with dominoes. We all know how much we love dominoes. I like mentioning dominoes. Yeah, you like it when it's just like a little tidbit you sprinkle in. I think it's fun when the murderers go to places we... Oh, what? Oh, God. Is it a lip hair?

No, no. I can understand why you'd think that, but I recently had them all removed. That was a cat hair because I'm a beautiful woman who keeps a very clean house. Oh, goodness gracious. All right, you want to talk

about another terrible case? No. No, why? You know, I feel like it's been a while since we both oopsies. I know. Did, like, two really terrible ones. You know, I was like, all right, I've done a whole bunch of accidents. Yes, yeah.

Let's go back to what I know. Good old standby. Good old family annihilator. Is your family ever afraid of you? Probably. Seem pretty interested. Seems like you've studied up on some stuff here. Yeah, that's accurate.

Shout out to an episode. All right. What? There is an episode about fatal vows about this case, which I believe to be a British crime show. It's like, you know, Oxygen, British style. Yeah. Okay.

But I couldn't actually find the show. What I found. Oh my god. What did you find? Was an article in the mirror that was like a detailed account of the show. All right, all right. So thank you to Fatal Vows and The Mirror, who then gave me a great, you know, play-by-play of the show, Fatal Vows.

Mirroring of the show. No. Also, I have no idea how to pronounce this guy's last name. I believe it's Kaler. It doesn't sound right. Give me your opinion. Oh, good, because I'm always so good at this. K-A-H-L-E-R.

I'm going Kaler. Yeah. I've said Kaler in my head the entire time I wrote this. There's not. And I can't imagine it's Caller, so what else would it be? You think it's Caller? Why wouldn't it be Caller? I don't know.

Why can't you imagine it? I don't know. Your imagination must be very limited if you can't imagine it would be Caller. I think it's Kaler. Okay. Anyway, we're going with Kaler, and I'm very sorry if it's wrong. Would you say you have an active imagination? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely, I do. Yeah. Yeah. I can tell the wheels are always turning. They are. The wheels on the bus go round and round, Kristen. Okay.

Wow. Yes. The Kaler family seem to have it all, Kristen. Oh, my God. these always start the same until they were all done they were wealthy and popular and the envy of many in weatherford texas they were that family well you couldn't find an American source for this story in Texas? No. Wow. First of all, this case fucking happens in Kansas, and I had to get a British show about it.

It happens in Texas. We will get there. Okay. All right. All right. Now I'm intrigued. Yeah. So they were the envy of many in Weatherford, Texas.

You know what I have noticed about these family annihilators? So many of them are wealthy. Yeah. What the hell? I don't know. Money, okay. Money can't buy you happiness. But they do say that up to like 200K, it makes your life a lot easier.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I guess not for everybody and i think when they say wealthy i'm guessing that's like about where they were in the sure in the wealth spectrum they weren't like you know on their donald trump shit or anything that's a that's a mac miller i was afraid you were getting political. I was not. He's going to take over the world.

He's on his Donald Trump shit. I just want to say. You're not here for it. I'm not here for it. And I miss him dearly. Oh, no. Because. Anyway. Because. anyway because

as an enthusiastic racist I was really empowered by Donald Trump and now I'm feeling bummed to the casual observer the Kaler family look to have it all together. James Craig Kaler, who went by his middle name Craig, met Karen Hetrick when they were both students at Kansas State University. Oh.

Located in Manhattan, Kansas. Tell me something I don't know, bitch. Did you ever go to K-State to visit? Is it true that it smells like cow turds? Or is that Emporia? I'm offending so many people. So many people. I don't know. I have been

to Manhattan. Brandy. Which Kansas town smells like the cow turds? I don't know. Isn't it Emporia? It might be. Is there like a processing plant right by it? A cow turd processing plant?

No, like a cow processing plant. Maybe there's a cow abattoir there. Hang on. Let me look it up. Okay. Emporia, Kansas. Smells bad. Does it smell bad there?

Well, I don't think so. I might have made this up. But the first thing I'm pulling up is TripAdvisor reviews from Emporia. And one of them says, good price but smelled bad. Well, there you go. There you have it. Smoky first room, hot second room with urine smell. Oh, my God.

Neither of those are winners. Anyway. Anyway. Craig was in his last year of his engineering degree, and Karen was a freshman and one of the most beautiful girls Craig had ever seen. They were both ambitious. They were both at the top of their class, and they were described by their peers as bright. What did Karen study? I don't know.

I don't know. I'm sorry. i don't know i don't know i'm sorry i don't know craig did so well in school that he was one of only three students from his year that was hand-picked for an engineering job in colorado so he and karen moved to Colorado, got married, welcomed their first daughter. Wait, what happened to Emily? Wasn't Karen a freshman? Yeah, she just like zip, zip, bam, boomed right out of there. Well, that's why we don't know what she studied. Well, okay. Right?

Because she left, right? Yeah, yes, yes, she left. She had to welcome the child, as Brandy says. She had to welcome her daughter. It seemed that they were madly in love. Okay, stop it. Oh, my God. Obviously, they weren't.

Karen told her friends that she enjoyed making her husband happy. Her friends maybe said that she waited on him hand and foot oh god which i hate but they described her as the perfect homemaker in 1999 an opportunity came to craig and he just could not pass it up he was offered the position of utility director at the power plant, the electric company. What's wrong with you? In Weatherford, Texas. What do you call it? I think different people call it different things.

Okay. Electric company, utility company. I mean. The power and light company. Hey, don't lose confidence halfway through this thing. Come on, just say it. So the family moved to Weatherford and they settled into a very traditional Texas

brick home, which this British article called a mansion. God bless. We've just got more space out here. It was a very standard Texas home. It was not even that big. I mean, 2,000 square feet. Yeah, that's no mansion.

No. They had a couple more kids, a daughter they named Lauren, a son they named Sean. Did they welcome Lauren and Sean? They did. They welcomed Lauren and Sean. Okay, very good. They did. And the family was a hit in Weatherford.

I've never heard of a family described as a hit, but I get it. I totally get it, though. They were a big hit. The girls started a band with their friends. Oh, okay. Karen made a bunch of friends with the other moms. They described her as loving and creative. And she was a key member of the Weatherford Society.

Colleagues described Craig as brilliant and hardworking. Like I said, they seem to be the perfect family. However, and this will come as a shock to no one, because there's a reason I'm telling you about this family right now, all was not as it seemed. Karen confided in her sister Lynn. Oh my god. Tomorrow's April Fool's Day. How funny would it have

been if you were really just telling us about a great family? I didn't. I know. You would never. I wish I would have thought about that instead of about to tell you this terrible story. Karen confided in her sister Lynn that things in her marriage were not great. There's a bunch of weird shit going on.

Her husband had made a bunch of bizarre requests, including that they had sex every night at 8 p.m. Why 8 p.m.? I don't know. That's when he wanted it. And so they had sex every night at 8 p.m. without fail. Oh, Karen. And that he had imposed a curfew on Karen. She had to be in bed at 9 p.m.

Where were they having the sex? Well, I'm assuming they were having the sex. Yeah. And then they, you know, she'd have to, like, clean up the house and load the dishwasher and then get in bed and go to sleep at 9 p.m. What a fun life. Yeah. Karen told her sister that it had basically just become, like, a chore that she had to do every day.

And that she just did it because it made things run smoothly. She also told her sister that Craig gave her a carefully supervised allowance oh god and he demanded receipts for every purchase including like everyday items like diapers and cereal and yeah it's not great Karen began to feel very isolated in this in this life and so she that was no mistake yeah and so she started to look for an outlet and she joined a gym called the powerhouse in Weatherford she knew that Craig would not pay for her membership at the gym because he would see it as extravagant

or like you're trying to do something outside the home. You might meet other people. That's forbidden. Yep. And so she raised money for her gym membership by selling cakes.

Oh, wow. Mm-hmm. So she sold these cakes. She paid for her gym membership. And before long, she was a regular there. She knew everybody there. She fit in really well. And they hired her as a fitness instructor.

Oh. I bet her douchebag hubby hated that. So he actually liked it at first because she was looking real hot, real fit. And as long as she was home by, you know, 8 p.m. for the sex and the kids were all taken care of and she was in bed by 9. Yeah, as long as he didn't have to do anything. Yeah. Then he was fine with it. Okay.

And Karen was loving it because she made friends and she was out of the house and it was like a part of her life that she controlled. And she met a bunch of people there. Like a really good friend named Sunny Reese. She was beautiful. She was a fitness instructor. And she and Karen became inse inseparable did they fall in love yeah oh whoa yep so there's a few different versions of how their relationship began but kind of the most agreed upon version is that Craig encouraged them to have a relationship and then have a threesome with him.

Yeah. He thought it was all fun and boners. Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is super fucking hot. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, let's all have sex together. Oh, wait.

You two are actually in love and everyone hates me. Yeah. Now I'm not having fun anymore. Yeah, exactly. So he encouraged the relationship initially and then he was like, holy shit, what? And then it's like he didn't it didn't occur to him that there could be something between two. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. He was like, this is purely for my pleasure. Yeah. That's exactly that's Yeah. He was like, this is purely for my pleasure. Yeah. That's exactly what it was like. Poor guy had his old paradigm shifted, didn't he?

He sure did. He sure did. And so Sonny and Karen have this deep relationship happening with each other. And Craig's just kind of like on the outside of it. And then he realizes like I've lost control here. And so he needs to do something to get his control back.

Oh, God. And so he moved the family to Missouri. No. He took a new job at the Water and Light Department in Columbia, Missouri, and moved them all there against all of their wishes. None of them wanted to relocate to Missouri, including Karen and the kids. Of course. So they moved there in June of 2008. Karen was super upset.

She had left Sonny behind. The kids were upset to leave their school. Yes, of course. But Craig was like, well, that'll be the end of that. That affair will end. But of course it didn't. Like, there are phones and computers. What?

And so they, Sunny and Karen continued their relationship long distance. Yeah. And Karen and Craig's relationship became extremely strained. Weird. Yeah. Super weird. And it kind of

all came to a head on December 31st, 2008 when they went back to Weatherford for a New Year's Eve party that Sunny happened to be at. Yeah. So at this party, Sunny and Karen kind of

wandered off together and they were seen kissing by someone at the party. So what had previously been this like secret relationship that Craig thought he, you know, had complete control over and whatever was now everybody knew and Craig was like pissed and embarrassed. And he and Karen ended up in a full on shouting match in front of all of the guests at the party. Oh, dear God. And it ended when one of them shoved the other, which there's not a

clear thing about who did the shoving, but my money's on Craig. Yeah. I don't have proof of this. I'm just saying. And all those polite people looked the other way. Yeah, exactly. It was shortly after this that Karen Kaler filed for divorce. Initially, she moved her bed into another room in their house in Columbia, and she started sleeping separately from him and separating herself from him. But she was still very much under his control. He controlled all of their money. So while she had formally filed for divorce,

she didn't have the means at this point to, like, actually leave and get herself her own residence. And so she just moved into another part of the house. And Craig started calling all of their friends and family members and telling them that Karen gone crazy. And they just needed to talk some sense into her. Oh, this is so gross. Oh, sorry. I just bumped the mic. Yeah, it's horrible.

Yeah. By March of 2009, Karen and Craig were in the middle of a nasty divorce. They were disputing everything. Money, the house, child support. Craig was convinced that this divorce was all an attempt to get at his money. Couldn't be because he was, you know, like a terrible husband and she was in love with someone else. No, it couldn't be that. He was great.

Yeah. So he began, like, as this divorce continues to go go on he just begins behaving more and more erratically no but she had gone crazy oh i'm sorry i forgot yeah my mistake the problems were all on one side yes on march 16th 2009 there was some kind of altercation at their home in Columbia, and Karen called the police. And Craig was actually arrested on suspicion of domestic assault. He was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is all a big misunderstanding. I am starved for affection.

Oh, my God. I was just trying to give my wife, whom I love, a big old bear hug. Oh, my God. I was just trying to give my wife, whom I love, a big old bear hug. Oh, my God. And I'm sorry she did get just like a little bruise on her arm. I was just trying to hug her. Oh, yeah. Okay, Lenny. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That was like it for Karen. She was like, that's fine. I'm moving out. I believe she got some help from her family to like take the kids and go. And as the year progressed,

things just got worse and worse with Craig. He didn't want to see his daughters at all. He only wanted to see his son. He felt betrayed by his daughters because they accepted Sonny as their mom's partner. How dare they? Yeah, and were like excited to see their mom's partner. How dare they? Yeah.

And were like excited to see their mom happy. Yes. Oh, the betrayal. Mm-hmm. And Craig became obsessed with Karen. He stalked her. He spied on her. He let the air out of her tires.

He installed spyware on her computer. He was just completely obsessed. And like his whole world was his marriage falling apart. And how dare she do this? And does she know what she's giving up? I think she does know what she's giving up. I think she knows exactly what she's giving up and i think she does know what she's giving i think she knows exactly what his behavior had devolved so much that he would literally sit at work with his colleagues and go over family albums of like when they had all of these happier times. What? Uh-huh. Oh, my God.

Yeah, he was. Those poor co-workers. Oh, my gosh. Well, and he was, like, the head guy, right? Yes. So they had to sit around and be like, oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was so bad that finally, like, the, I don't know,

somebody from the city who is, like, overseeing the utility department. Probably the city manager. Yeah, had to come in and be like, hey, buddy, I think it's time for you to tender your resignation. Oh, wow. So it wasn't just like, hey, put the photo albums away. Okay. He lost his job.

They allowed him to resign, but he was essentially fired. Yeah. Yeah. By this time, it was August of 2009. Shortly after Craig had lost his job, his parents decided it was time to intervene. And so they drove to Columbia and they brought Craig home to live with them in Meriden, Kansas, which is where he was from. They thought that with their support, he could get his life back on track, get a job, pull himself back together. But sadly, that's not what happened.

A few months later, Thanksgiving weekend, to be precise, an unthinkable tragedy occurred. Sean had joined his dad. So Sean's the son. He had joined his dad at the family ranch in Meriden for Thanksgiving. So Meriden's like just outside of Topeka. So he joined. This is helpful to me and no one else is listening. Yes.

It's a little town in Kansas. So he had joined his dad for Thanksgiving while his mom and his sisters went to Karen's sister's home in Derby, Kansas. So that was how they spent the actual Thanksgiving holiday. But the family had this like long standing tradition of spending the weekend after Thanksgiving at the home of Karen's grandmother, Dorothy White. And she lived in Burlingame, Kansas, which again is right outside of Topeka. Topeka's the capital.

It's about an hour west of here. It smells like dog food. No, because they have the Purina plant there. You think it smells like dog food? Have you been to Topeka? I've been to Topeka lots of times. You don't think Topeka has a smell? I guess I've never noticed it.

You've never noticed the scent of Topeka, Kansas? I guess not. Randy. The Purina plant is there, so. Yeah, I know it's there. So, okay, when I got accepted to Washburn Law School there, Norm and I drove there, and we were like, can we get used to this? We don't know.

I've legitimately never noticed the smell. Norm worked in Topeka. Yeah, I used to. When I was district manager, I had two stores in Topeka. I went to Topeka all the time. I took my state boards in Topeka. Did you have two bottles of Febreze just hanging from your earlobes. Yes, I did have my Febreze earrings on.

I'm offending everyone. So now I feel like I need to throw out my Kansas credentials. Grew up in Kansas. Of course. I can say whatever I want about Kansas. Whatever the fudge you want about Kansas. Alright, love you Kansas. You stinky little thing.

So the family tradition is that they all spend the weekend after Thanksgiving at Karen's grandma's house. So the arrangement they had made this arrangement that Sean would spend Thanksgiving with his dad and then Karen would meet someone in Topeka to pick up Sean on Saturday after Thanksgiving and then go back to grandma's house. That morning, though, Sean called his mom and was like, I'm having so much fun. We've been fishing and hunting. And can I just stay with dad? And Karen was like, no, I'm sorry. This is the this is the plan.

You spent Thanksgiving with him. Now you need to come and spend the rest of the weekend with the family. Yeah. At Grandma Dorothy's. And so Craig was upset about this. Mm-hmm. So while he was out running an errand, Craig's mom took Sean to meet Karen. Yeah.

In Topeka. She was like, you know, this was the arrangement. We're going to stick to the arrangement. So Karen got Sean, went back to Grandma Dorothy's house. But Craig was not pleased that his mother had done this. He was not pleased that Sean was gone when he got back from running his errand. And around 530 that evening. Did he guilt his son into wanting to spend more time with him?

Oh, I think it's very possible. Yeah, I think it's very possible. Yeah. Yeah. So sometime around 530 that evening, the police got a couple of calls from different people in Burlingame who were reporting a suspicious vehicle. There was a man in a red Ford Explorer that had parked, I don't know, on a street. And they thought the guy was acting super weird. And one of them had even called out to the guy and he'd ignored him.

And so they called the police and just reported it as a suspicious vehicle. It was Craig Kaler's vehicle. The police would later find out. At around 6 p.m., Sean and Karen were standing in the kitchen of Grandma Dorothy's home. So Sean was like a, he was like 11 years old. Okay. But he liked collecting coins. And Grandma Dorothy had all of these old coins.

And so they were standing at the kitchen sink cleaning these coins to see if any of them were, you know, anything good for his collection or whatever. Sure. And through the back door comes Craig Kaler. Just walks right into Dorothy White's house, into the kitchen. He looks at Karen and he shoots her. Shoots her twice. Sean is standing right next to his mother when his father shoots her twice. Sean runs out the back door.

Yeah. As Craig continues through the home, Sean ran to a neighbor's house and called the police. Oh, my God. About this same time that the police were called from the neighbor's house, Dorothy White's life alert system initiates an emergency assistance call, which then, so like it goes through like a call center that then calls 911. Was she, did she wear one of those buttons? Yeah, she had one of those things on. And so what it also does is it records all of the activity in the room, like creates an audio recording.

I didn't know that. So whatever specific, whatever system that she had, it did this. And so they there is an audio recording of people screaming of Lauren saying that she doesn't want to die. So Craig walked through the house and systematically shot Lauren and Emily and Dorothy White. systematically shot Lauren and Emily and Dorothy White. When officers arrived, Karen was laying on the floor in the kitchen. She'd been shot twice. She was unconscious and she had like a very faint pulse.

Emily had been shot twice. She was laying on the living room floor and she was dead. Dorothy White was sitting in a recliner in the living room, like holding pressure to her stomach where she had been shot. And Lauren was found upstairs. She had also been shot twice. And she was conscious, but she was having trouble breathing. She told the first officer who arrived on the scene that she didn't want to die and that her dad had done this.

Oh, God. Craig Kaler was nowhere to be found. He wasn't in the house. But both Lauren and Dorothy identified him as the shooter. And then Sean, who was unharmed, physically unharmed. Yeah. Yeah. Said the same thing.

So they launched this like all out manhunt for Craig Kaler. Lauren dies as soon as she gets to the hospital. And Dorothy White succumbed to her injuries like two days later. Craig managed to elude law enforcement that evening. But the next day, he was just like found walking down the side of the road, like a quarter mile from where his car had been parked. He was like walking in a ditch. He looked all disheveled and like a KBI or a KBI agent. Agent. Thank you. Like pulled up and saw him and he knew he matched the description. Oh, weird.

And he just looks at him and he goes, yeah, I'm the guy. I'm the guy you're looking for. So this agent's like, okay, cool. And he starts taking him into custody and he doesn't fight at all. And he just keeps saying, I messed up. I messed up.

So they find his vehicle that was parked, you know, that was called in and they find unused ammunition. They find a bottle of anxiety medication that had been unused and it dated back to March of 2009. Cool. Don't take your meds. Mm hmm. cool don't take your meds so fast forward to December 2010 when Craig Kaler had his preliminary hearing he entered a plea of insanity

at this point Kansas had made it clear that they were seeking the death penalty against him so this was really like it wasn't a question of whether he had done it the question was what was his question of whether he had done it. The question was what was his state of mind when he did it. The defense claimed that he had mentally snapped because of Karen's lesbian affair.

OK. Here we go. They said it all just piled up. His wife had left him for a woman. He'd lost his job. He hadn't taken his anxiety medication. Remember, he had displayed all of that erratic behavior. And he didn't try to cover up murder.

All of that was evidence that he was insane during the crime. His trial began in August of 2011. The prosecution argued that Craig had consciously planned the murder. He was a hunter. He had guns in the house. He was consciously planning to use those weapons to kill his family in cold-blooded murder. He didn't miss a single target. He fired seven shots, and he made contact on all of them. Wow.

And of those seven shots, six of them were fatal wounds on their own. Wow. Mm- own. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The prosecution argued that he had enough presence of mind in the moment to spare himself and to spare his son. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. They said this wasn't someone who was out of control. Mm-hmm. And to spare his son. Yep.

Yeah. They said this wasn't someone who was out of control. This was a calculated thing. In the defense's opening argument, I'm just going to warn you right now that I might mess this up. The prosecutor's last name is Hanley and the defense attorney's last name is Haney. There's one letter apart. So that's some bullshit. It's some bullshit. So the defense attorney, Tom Haney, got up and he told the jury, which was a mix of nine men and six women, that they would hear evidence that showed that Craig was mentally overwhelmed and not able to control his behavior in the months that led up to the killings. He said, we are going to show you that this horrible human tragedy occurred.

They did not deserve what happened. Our argument is not that they deserved what happened to them. Well, yeah, that would be nuts if it was. Well, exactly. I mean, I think that's just a stupid thing to say. It is. It is. I'm not here to tell you that the victims deserve to die.

Yeah. He went on to say, how could anyone do this? There is no simple answer. No one in their right mind. Okay. No sane person, no loving father could do this to his children. These acts are of a person with a mentally diseased mind, not of a cold-blooded, calculated murderer. What's the difference?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we know there is a difference. Yeah. How are they drawing the line? Yeah, Yeah. I mean, we know there is a difference. Yeah. How are they drawing the line? Yeah, exactly. So the defense attempted to establish that severe depression had made Craig incapable of forming the intent and premeditation required to establish the crime of capital murder. So this is their attempt to get him out of the death penalty, essentially.

If they can say that he lacked the ability to form intent and premeditation, both of those are required to convict him of capital murder, which has to be capital murder for him to get the death penalty. The defense presented expert testimony from Dr. Steven Peterson, who was a forensic psychiatrist, and he testified that Craig Kaler was suffering from severe major depression at the time of the murders and that, quote, his capacity to manage his own behavior had been severely degraded so that he couldn't refrain from what he did. I don't know, man. He knew enough to let his son run out the door. Yeah. Yeah.

If he's really going in there with no control over himself, he kills his son, too. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I also don't like this idea that like, and his wife left him for a woman. And that was so shocking. That is so 10 years ago.

Yeah. That people would even make that argument. I agree. But I think it's especially bullshitty when you just consider the facts, which is that initially he encouraged it. So he couldn't have been too fucking shocked by it. So this was like this was the whole part of the defense's case. It's like, here's our expert. He says, you know, he lacked the ability to to have intent.

He was out of control. He'd completely snapped. So the prosecution puts up an expert who's like, I disagree. Yeah. In my opinion, the fact that he let his son live shows that he he absolutely could make decisions. Yeah. While he was there. Yeah.

In addition to that expert testimony, the prosecution put up a very compelling case against Craig Kaler. I mean, there's not a question about if Craig did this the question comes down to what is his state of mind when he did it 11 year old Sean Kaler testified oh I didn't realize he was only 11 oh that poor little boy. Oh, yeah. So he testified that he watched his father shoot his mom and his great-grandma before he ran from the house. He talked about how he initially ran out of the house and then he ran around the front of the house and he was going to come back in to get to a phone. But then he saw his dad with the gun and he ducked down and he decided he should run to a neighbor's house. So he ran to one house and no one was there. And so then he ran across the street to another house

and he said he heard gunshots as he was running. Oh my God. And he got to the house across the street and he said, my grandma lives across the street. My dad's in there shooting my family. And they called 911. He also talked about, he gave specific testimony

about the gun that his dad used. I guess the gun was never recovered. He ditched it at some point and it was never found. So he had the presence of mind to hide. Okay. Interesting. The first deputy to arrive on scene testified about how he responded to that life alert call. That was the first call that came in. The life alert actually came in before the 911 call from the neighbor. And he said that he the life alert people had let them know that there was some kind of incident and that they could hear screaming and that there was a shooting. And so they knew a little bit of what they were. That was going to be my question was like, does this poor guy just think he's like an old lady has fallen and can't get up?

Yeah, exactly. No. So because because the call center can hear the audio, they are alerted that there is some kind of event happening. This is not just a medical emergency. I didn't realize they could hear it in real time. I don't I don't know from my understanding from what I read is maybe that Dorothy relayed that to the call center

and that's when it was escalated to a 911 call. So she. You know how we're going to get to the bottom of this. What's that? Let's get you a life alert. Let's test it out. Yes. So yeah. So she I believe relays that there's been a shooting because you know she was speaking at this point you know. And so he talks about that and how

he forced entry into the home. His words you know. And so he talks about that and how he forced entry into the home. His words. Okay. And that he heard crying, a voice crying for help from upstairs. And it was the voice of Lauren. And she told him, don't let me die. I don't want to die. And he just sat there and comforted her.

That's all he could do. He then, once more people arrived on scene, he went back downstairs and he found the body of Emily. And Dorothy was talking to them at that point and said he just came in and started shooting. When they gave the testimony about how Dorothy and Lauren both identified Craig Kaler as the shooter. The defense objected to this, saying that this is an admissible hearsay because it's information. No, it was Lauren's last statement before she died. It was a dying declaration.

Yes. So it's allowed. You're exactly right. And why wouldn't the child's statement be allowed? Yeah. What was their logic for that? So it wasn't. We don't like child's statement be allowed? Yeah. What was their logic for that? So we don't like it. No, no. So it was it was Dorothy and. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes. Dorothy and Lauren. Yes. Gave that information to a third party who then testified

in court that that was the information they gave him. So the defense is like an admissible hearsay. No, but no dying declaration. Dying declaration, exactly. Same thing happened in my case with Gary Melke. They tried to get that thrown out. Yeah. Because they were like, well, he died two days later. And it's like, well, my dude, he was shot four times. Yeah, exactly. He knew he was going to die.

Everyone knew he was going to die. Mm-hmm. Ugh, anyway. Kind of the star witness for the prosecution was Sunny Reese. She took the stand and she talked about her relationship with Karen and how Craig had really encouraged it. He'd sent her a bunch of texts encouraging it. He'd sent her flowers at one point. And then she testified about how she'd observed Karen and Craig's relationship.

And she was really worried for Karen's safety. And she encouraged Karen to divorce Craig, not so that they could be together, but because she was worried he was unstable and she was worried by his controlling nature and she thought that that wouldn't end well. Yeah. The defense attorney was like, oh, so you did encourage her to divorce him, huh?

And she was like, I did. I absolutely did. And the prosecution presented this evidence of this email that Sonny had sent Karen at one point that was like, how to divorce a narcissistic partner. Yeah. Because it's really difficult when you're trying to leave any relationship. And especially if that's ramped up by someone having control and narcissism and all kinds of issues. So, yeah, she was like, yes, I did encourage her to divorce him,

but not so that we could be together, which. Well, and encouraging someone to divorce another person is not a crime. And clearly it was the, I mean. Yeah. She was on to something there. Yeah. And then on cross-examination, the defense attorney was like, do you have any proof of these text messages where Craig supposedly encouraged a relationship with his wife?

And Reese is like, no, no, I don't. I don't have any. I don't have any copies of those text messages to show you. And he's like, so you don't have anything other than your testimony today that Craig Kaler suggested a threesome. And Sonny was like, no, sir. It's just my word. Like, you think you're making like some big point? Yeah.

Yeah. He has no points. This is all he can do. He has no points. This is all he can do. Eric Mitchell, who was the coroner and forensic pathologist, testified that of the seven gunshot wounds suffered by the victims, six of them were fatal shots. He knew what he was doing. These were targeted shots and he hit his target every time.

Yeah. And he let his son live like i to me that is the biggest sign that he knew what he was doing when he walked in that house yeah during their closing arguments the defense council said said that Craig Kaler was incapable of forming the requisite premeditation or intent at the time of the killings. And the state said, OK, the defense has told you that, but did they prove it to you? No, they didn't. And when you're talking about an insanity defense, the burden of proof lies on the defense. Assistant Attorney General Amy Hanley said in her closing arguments that Taylor was angry and he gunned down his family members because he believed he could fix his problems by getting rid of those he felt were responsible.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. She said the defendant had a plan in his mind. He had a problem to eliminate and he knew how to do it. Kaler's defense attorney tried to like counter this by saying that Craig was mentally broken because of his wife's lesbian affair and her pursuit of a divorce. He said, what happens when someone who's rigid is put under too much pressure? They snap. OK, man. And he literally broke a pencil in front of the jurors when he said that.

And they were like, whoa. Whoa, you're blowing our minds up here, man. Yeah. The jury deliberated for two hours before convicting Craig Kaler of capital murder. What? Wait, didn't they see the pencil snap? I know. It's like they didn't even see the pencil snap.

Damn it. Although, I got to say, do you ever watch, I think it's Cold Case File. I think that's what it's called. Do you ever watch that? I've seen it, yeah. Okay. The lady on there, who I enjoy immensely, she talks about circumstantial cases. Have you seen her do this?

She'll be like, you know, okay. A circumstantial piece of evidence, kind of like this pencil. She picks up the pencil. If this is all we've got, she snaps it. It can break. But in this case, and she says this in like every case, in this case, we have, you know, this thing. And she grabs the pencil. And we have this other thing.

And then she can't break all the pencils. The first time she did it, I was like, oh. And then the fourth time she did it, I was like, oh. Oh. And then the fourth time she did it, I was like, you say this about all the cases. I've seen it before. I've never felt more betrayed. So following his conviction on capital murder charges, a penalty phase began. And the prosecution laid out the aggravating factors and the defense laid out the mitigating factors and blah, blah, blah. And Sean made a statement and asked the jury

not to kill his dad. He said it would be hard on his grandparents. That poor kid. I hope he's doing OK. Despite Sean's request to the jury, they recommended the death penalty for Craig Kaler. At his formal sentencing on October 11, 2011, Craig displayed some real odd behavior by making a lot of sarcastic and hateful comments from the defense table, some under his breath and others not so much. In a statement to the court, he addressed his parents saying, take care of Sean so he's not raised by a bunch of freaks. Referring to the relatives of Karen, who were currently taking care of him.

All right. Cool. Also, during his formal sentencing, there was a moment for like victim impact statements. And in one of them, Karen's sister gave a statement about how like finally this was all over, but that didn't really give them closure. But at least she knew she could go out and enjoy a sunny day. And Craig couldn't. And he made a comment about like under his breath about like enjoying Sonny because Sonny was the name of Karen's. Girlfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I don't know, man.

It was weird. After hearing victim impact statements from Karen's family, the judge formally imposed a sentence of death. So Craig Kaler appealed his conviction to the Kansas Supreme Court. So in Kansas, I don't know how many states this is the case in, but in Kansas, in a capital murder case, you can appeal directly to the Supreme Court. You don't have to go through the other channels. No rigmarole. That's right. And so he was appealing on like 10 trial errors that he said happened. And then also he was appealing because he believed that Kansas's insanity defense law is unconstitutional.

Really? Yes. So here's a little background on that. In 1995, the state of Kansas passed a law which revoked the traditional insanity defense. So defendants could no longer argue that because of their mental illness, they were incapable of deciding right from wrong. Instead, defendants suffering from mental illness are only permitted to argue that their mental illness prevented them from forming intent. Oh. Mm hmm.

So it changes the definition of insanity. Yeah. Narrows it a lot. Takes away the broad definition and makes it very specific. Yeah. And makes it very specific. So here's kind of an example of that that was given by Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer when this law came into effect. So he said, OK, here's like here's two cases. In case one, the defendant, due to insanity, believes that the victim is a wolf.

He shoots and kills the wolf. He shoots and kills the wolf. In case two, the defendant, due to insanity, believes that a wolf, a supernatural figure, has ordered him to kill a victim. In case one, the defendant doesn't know that he's killed a human being. His insanity tells him that he has killed a wolf. So he doesn't have it negates the mental element necessary to commit the crime. Right. In case two, the defendant has intentionally killed a victim.

Who is a human being. So. Yeah. Under the new law, only the only in case one would they be able to argue insanity. In case two, they wouldn't because they knew they were killing someone. So Craig has appealed to the Kansas Supreme Court and they were like, no, man. Like, we've said it before. We'll say it again.

Our insanity law is what it is. It's not unconstitutional. Your due process was not violated. Good day, sir. So then Craig Kaler appealed his conviction to the United States. Supreme Court! And they were like, nope, get out of here.

They agreed to hear the case. Really? Yeah. No way. In October of 2019. Wow. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. These things, they always try to get them to the Supreme Court, but they hardly ever get there. So they listened. They heard the case in October. And so basically, Kaler's argument to the Supreme Court was that the M. Notten rule, which I'm sure that I'm not pronouncing that right,

but it's the basis of the traditional insanity defense. This dates back to like medieval times or something. Dates back a really long time. The restaurant? Yeah, exactly. So he argued that this represents the codification of a legal concept that goes all the way back to medieval common law and should be considered part of the due process of law.

So he's like, by narrowing the definition and getting rid of the monotone rule or however you pronounce it, you've violated my due process. Okay. And his argument went on to assert that for centuries, defendants have been held culpable only when they were to be able to distinguish between right and wrong and that people who are legally insane do not have the capacity to do so. So by narrowing this definition, you're narrowing it too much. And now you've violated my due process and I don't like it. and I don't like it. And then the state argued,

they're like, no, we, you know, the United States has long said that the states have the autonomy to make their own laws within the framework of the Constitution and this doesn't violate the Constitution. It just narrows a very broad definition. Right. And so the Supreme Court just ruled on this like in may of 2020 kidding me okay what they say so

the majority opinion was written by elena kagan who said we agree with kansas's state so elena kagan said kansas law does not violate the fundamental right to due process she went on to note that the definitions of legal culpability and mental illness have been traditionally reserved for the state level. She said that contrary to Kaler's argument before the court, Kansas had not in fact abolished the insanity defense, but instead had simply modified it, which the Constitution permits. modified it, which the Constitution permits. So, and the opinion pointed out that Kaler could still have presented a mental illness defense at trial and could have presented that as like a mitigating factor at the penalty phase. But they didn't really do that. Three people did dissent on this.

Who we got? Stephen Breyer. Okay. RBG. Hmm. Sonia Sotomayor. So the three of them dissented and they said basically that Kansas's law doesn't simply modify the insanity defense. defense, it narrows it too much to where it has removed the core requirement of whether a defendant could distinguish from right and wrong.

Yeah. How do you feel? I don't know. I'm very conflicted. I do think it's good that we have a narrow definition, but I don't know if it may be too narrowed. Yeah, I think whether you know if something's right or wrong, that has to be a factor. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is the basis of that M-not-on. M-not-on. M-night Shyamalan. M-not-on. M-not-on. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

So his appeal was denied. Yeah. He remains on death row in Kansas. So he's held at El Dorado. As of 2020, four other states have passed insanity defense laws similar to Kansas. They are Idaho, Alaska, Utah, and Montana. And that's the story of a family annihilator. So I think there's.

That was really interesting. I do. I think it is interesting because I do. I can see what they're saying in the dissent. Yeah. I don't know that it applies to Craig Kaler's case, though. Like, I don't know that that's the argument. Did he know right from wrong?

Like, I think he did know right from wrong. I think that's proven by the fact that he allowed his son to live. Sure, but that's another issue. Right. No, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that, like, yeah, I think this is argued on a different issue altogether than than what his trial really was. Yeah. I don't know, man. I get really uncomfortable with the insanity stuff because I just I think we don't understand enough about mental illness.

We don't. We don't. Absolutely. And so I kind of feel like, who am I to say anything about this? But I do feel like, yeah, whether a person knew whether they were doing something right or wrong, that is of interest to me. That makes a difference. But then how do you know if somebody knew? Exactly. And I have trouble with this little scenario that they give about when you could use and when you couldn't use. Because under both of those instances, I don't know, man. I think I'd listen to an insanity defense.

So if someone comes in and they're like, I believed I was killing a wolf, but it was actually a person. I'd be like, yeah, that dude's insane. But also, I believed that a wolf told me to kill my mom. I'd probably also believe that guy was insane. Unless that guy just really wanted to kill his mom. Yeah.

I don't know. Is it toughy? Does it make a difference if the mom just had a lesbian affair? Makes all the difference. Imagine the shock. I wonder how often this happens. Where, like, a guy's like, oh, yeah.

I bet it happens. Oh, yeah. I bet it happens so often. Explore your sexuality a bit. Oh, what? It's another woman? I'm not threatening her. I love it.

I love it. Let me tag in there every now and again. Oh, wait a bit. Oh, what? It's another woman? I'm not threatening her. I love it. I love it. Let me tag in there every now and again. Oh, wait a second! Oh my god, you guys are in love now? Who could have seen this coming? Damn it! I love it. Oh my gosh.

What? We haven't mentioned our fucking Patreon one time. Shit. You know why that is? Why? Is this the first episode we've ever had with three ads? I think it is. We were like, yeah.

You guys, we're big time now. We've got ads coming out the ass. Don't look me directly in the eye. Exactly right. We don't even have time to promote our own Patreon. Ugh. No, when I saw it today, I was like, oh my gosh. It's a momentous occasion.

Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. It's a big deal. Well, anyway. Anyway. We're so huge now. How big are we? We're so big that we also have our own Patreon that we'd love for you guys to subscribe to and support us. At the $5 level, you get bonus episodes.

We got 21 of those bad boys. 21 meaty boys. That's right. And you also get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. At the $7 level, you get all that plus monthly bonus videos. We might be doing something new with the bonus videos. Yeah, we're looking into some other options. Yeah, we haven't even discussed

this. This is dangerous. Yeah, this is dangerous territory. I was thinking of like a live thing. Shut up! Okay, okay. Well, alright. Maybe we'll do it. Everybody calm down. That's what we're thinking. That's what we're thinking.

What else? Oh, you get a sticker? Yeah, you get a card welcoming you to the Supreme Court. And you get inducted. Oh, my God. Calm down. On this very podcast. Calm down.

Wouldn't it be weird if we got inducted on another podcast? That'd be great. What if we got... Okay. Guys, we're getting so big that we had to start a whole new podcast just for induction. Oh, my God. At the $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level, you get all that plus ad-free episodes. You get them a day early, folks.

A day early. Plus 10% off merch. Mm. Mm. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!

Spicy. That is spicy. Brandy, I think we should take some questions from our Discord. Oh, you do, do you? I do. Kicked Courtney. It's interesting you bring that up because I have no recollection of it. Yeah.

She says, Brandy, in episode 53, the murder of Nicholas Markowitz and the subsequent manhunt of Jesse James Hollywood, you reference a case that caused Brazil to close a legal loophole that meant men who fathered a child with a Brazilian native could not be extradited. I mean, that does sound familiar because I know that's what Jesse James Hollywood believed

happened. She said, I said I was going to cover it. And so, I don't know, maybe I will. I forgot all about it. And so, I don't know, maybe I will. I forgot all about it. Speaking of things that we've forgotten all about, someone mentioned, so, you know, a couple episodes ago, we had a long discussion of Shoney's. Yeah. Shoney's, Shoney's, Shoney's. Loved it as kids, blah, blah, blah.

Someone pointed out, we've had that exact same conversation in an earlier episode. Doesn't surprise me one bit. It doesn't surprise me one bit either. The people seem surprised, though. Yeah. Here's the thing I will say. We talk for a long time in front of these microphones. We do. And we talk for a long time just in general. And it's really fucking hard to know what we have recorded, what actually made it onto the podcast.

And, you know, we just repeat stories sometimes. Some conversation we had on this week's episode, someone pointed out that we also had on, like, episode nine. What part was that? I can't remember now. See, we're going to have it again now. It's going to happen. Hold on. Let me see what conversation they said.

The wife swap story. Oh, really? Yeah. I talked about wife swap twice on this podcast. I talked about Curtis twice on this podcast, Kristen. Does that make you feel? I mean, it tracks. Norman and I talk about that little guy a lot.

He has no idea the impact he has made on my life. Root to Include wants to know, I have to know, why do you hate Domino's pizza so much? Have you had it in recent years? Oh, no. You have no idea how timely that is? Yes. I'm just including that because it's timely. Oh, Midwest Trash.

I feel you. What is the one thing you wanted but never got as a preteen or teenager but would spend your own adult money on hers is the t-mobile sidekick and so was mine i really so fucking christian it was like i wanted that so bad. But I didn't have T-Mobile, so I couldn't get it. I had stupid Sprint. And now Sprint and T-Mobile banged and are one. Two became one. Two became one. Now, if the sidekick came back, I could have it. I'm very sorry, Brandy.

It's a real shame. It just looked like the coolest thing ever. I don't know what mine would be You didn't have something that was super cool That you wished you could have That's never been my thing I always feel so lame when some of these The only thing in my life That I feel like I have really coveted

And I never got Because life is unfair Barbie Jeep Wanted unfair Barbie Jeep. Wanted that Barbie Jeep so bad. You know what else I wanted as a kid? And it turned out to be really fucking lame. Do you remember the game Don't Break the Ice?

Oh yeah, that game sucked. There was so much set up. You know why I wanted it? Why? I thought the ice. Oh, yeah, that game sucked. There was so much set up. You know why I wanted it? Why? I thought the ice looked like icing. You're like, I bet that's delicious. That's what I thought. So imagine my disappointment.

Oh. Okay, geriatric Sasquatch, if you need to know. I feel like this is good. Oh, what you got, Brandy? Who was your favorite of Rory's boyfriends? Kristen, I know this doesn't mean anything to you. This is a Gilmore Girls question, so you just keep on scrolling over there. The hot white guy.

That was good, wasn't it? Okay, well, they're all hot white guys. Yes, I knew it. However, for a long time. What's up, Brandy? I was team Logan. This is an unpopular opinion. I didn't know why she turned down his proposal.

Seemed like a missed opportunity to me. They were going to go live in San Francisco with avocado trees. Sounded great. You don't even like avocado. You're right, I don trees. Okay. Sounded great. Uh-huh. You don't even like avocado. You're right, I don't. But you liked that idea. I did.

I did. Logan was my favorite for a long time. However, in a recent rewatch, I rewatched the entire series during COVID shutdown last year. Had a little time on your hands, did you? And this time I came out of it team Jess, which of course he's been a bad boy. Uh-huh. I thought he was a bad influence on Rory in the beginning, which is why I wasn't a fan. However, turns out after my more mature rewatch, he was the only one who was willing to tell it like it is. Sometimes the bad boys will do that for you.

Exactly right. So hashtag Team Jess. You ever been into a bad boy, Brandy? No. Me neither. David drops exactly the speed limit everywhere. Yeah, Norm does five over, no more. Oh.

Kristen, I feel like I'm picking all the questions. I'm going to need you to pick some. Oh, okay. You need me to actually do some work here? Fudge Dragon wants to know, what is your favorite Easter candy? I have very strong opinions on this. Do you have strong opinions? Oh, gosh. Easter candy. Okay, well, hold on.

Hold on. Let me think here. Let me think. Here's the thing. I know this is gonna, you're not gonna love this, but this is just my truth, okay? Okay. You like it all? No. Oh.

No, because I think peeps are disgusting. Wrong! You like peeps? I fucking love peeps. You like nothing on this earth, but you like peeps? Love peeps. And I'll tell you, there's a specific way. Let me guess.

First, you put it in your mouth. Nope. Then you let it sit there. Nope. There's a two-day process that must occur before I can eat a peep. Oh, gross. You've told me this before. I remember this.

This is even grosser than, like, any normal way. You let them go stale, don't you? That's exactly right. God. Oh, the humanity. Dry out those little peep bodies. That's exactly right. Suck them down.

Chewy. So good. Makes them like a chewier consistency. Okay, no peeps for you. You are a monster. Oh my god. No, I'm a big

jelly bean fan. Yeah, I like jelly beans. Do you eat black jelly beans? No. See, here's the thing. A little picky, a big jelly bean fan. Yeah, I like jelly beans. And I feel like... Do you eat black jelly beans? No. Okay. See, here's the thing. Mm-hmm. A little picky, a little choosy. This is why I loved back in the day when you could go to, like, Mr. Bulky's or, like, those candy shops and you'd just, like, get a shit ton of the good jelly beans.

But now adult Kristen knows that roaches are just all scattered amongst those things. And so now adult Kristen can't have that fun. And adult Kristen is too cheap to buy like the assorted jelly beans, knowing she's going to throw half of them away. So here I sit, broken hearted. No jelly beans. With no jelly beans. Okay, so I like the Cadbury mini eggs. Oh, the big ones are too big for you, huh?

So I don't want a cream-filled nonsense. That's disgusting. No, it's not. Yes. Okay, old peep. Okay. So it sounded like I was calling you an old peep. Excuse me, that's stale peep.

Listen, you chewy old peep. Okay, no. These are just chocolate. It's that Cadbury chocolate in a hard candy shell. It's a mini Cadbury egg. There's no fucking cream in there because disgusting. That cream is good. No.

Wrong. You look like you're about to throw up. Just think about that cream. I do not like cream filled things. I could tell. David brought home a box of cherry corchels one time and I was like, ooh. He's like, do you like these? And I was like, I have never tried them.

They look disgusting. They're good. No, Kristen. That's just like, there's just like stuff oozing out of there. Ma'am, did you try them? They look disgusting. They're good. No, Kristen. There's just stuff oozing out of there. Ma'am, did you try them? No. Exactly. Do you like a cream-filled donut? Really?

I like it if it's like... I don't like a Bavarian cream. It's got to be the fluffy whipped cream. Okay. Do you know why I think this is? Are you thinking of jizz? What are you thinking? It's close to that.

What is it? When I was a small child. Oh, no. What happened to you? When I was a small child, my grandmother watched me. She was a member of the LDS church. Right. Which meant that she went visiting teaching like twice a week.

And I would, because she watched me, I would go along with her to these random people's houses. And one of those people had a pet rabbit. Okay. And one day someone was holding that pet rabbit and this white liquid shot out of its butt. white liquid shot out of its butt and ever since then whenever I see cream it makes

me think of that white liquid that shot out of that rabbit's butt. You are the weirdest person. Can't eat a Cadbury egg because one time you saw a bunny shit.

No! Rabbit shit pellets! So what was that? Obviously it was the filling to the Cadbury Creme Egg. Exactly! Oh my god. I've never told anyone that.

I feel like you've told it on the podcast before. Everybody let us know. Ooh. Cooter Collision wants to know, is peeing in the shower just a guy thing and if not do you do it kristen do you do you yeah in the shower i do but do i want to admit it on the podcast you don't have to if you don't do you yeah okay well if you're admitting it i will yeah i pee in the shower if i'm already in the shower and i have to pee. Why am I going to get out and pee? I agree. I believe I'm saving the planet when I pee in the shower. I agree.

And obviously, I pee before I wash my body. Well, yeah. You pee and then you clean up afterwards. There you go. Okay. Is it weird that I was so forthright about shaving my lady mustache, but then I was like, I don't know if I want to let people know that I was so forthright about shaving my lady mustache but then I was like I don't know if I want to let people know that I pee in the shower yeah I think it's an efficiency thing

all right I'm a very efficient person people are always saying that to me oh hell no wants to know on my way to the dentist gas or no gas personally a fan pretty sure the dentist appreciates when I take it, too. Man, I've never had gas at the dentist. I've had it twice. That's not how I meant it. I've had it twice. Wonderful times. Really? If you're the type of person who doesn't get high, man, get yourself to a dentist. I've, you know, my mom has always been my dental hygienist, so I've never been nervous to go to the dentist or anything.

I have gotten extensive dental work done, but I've never used gas on me. I've always just had the shot, shot, shot, shot, shot, shots. Okay. One time, this was like after college. I'm such a wimp about all medical stuff that they were going to give me the shots. And I was like, because I had cavities, and I was like, I'm scared, I'm scared. Can you just give me gas? Yeah.

And the guy was like, it's not covered by your insurance. I was like, whatever it is, I'll pay it. It was 75 bucks and it was well spent. And it was well spent. I'm pretty sure the staff looked down on me as some like, you know. Yeah. But I mean, come on. Hmm.

DeVry Law School wants to know, what was the most expensive thing you've ever bought in a complete treat yourself mood? I'm sorry. And did you regret it? I was looking up an answer to another question. Can you repeat that question? I'm sorry. You were on my butt to actually ask a question. Okay.

DeVry Law School. Ma'am, are you paying attention? This is like when I was trying to tell Norm some stuff. I was like, if you want me to just stop talking, I will. Okay. And boy, that really set him straight. I'm ready. DeVry Law School wants to know, what was the most expensive thing you've ever bought in

a complete treat yourself mood? And did you regret it? I. Okay. What you got? I had a moment one day where I like, and this has been years ago, but I like got off work early. And I was like, God, it would be great right now. Facial and a pedicure.

And so, like, I literally made an appointment for, like, 10 minutes later. And I went and got, like, a microdermabrasion. You got a microdermabrasion? Yes. What did it feel like? Oh, it felt amazing. I thought it would hurt. No, it's just a little vacuum on your face.

It doesn't hurt at all. Really? It was amazing. And I got a pedi. Oh, it was face. It doesn't hurt at all. Really? It was amazing. And I got a pedi. Oh, it was delightful. It was pretty expensive after this. I'm just like on the spur of the moment. But I felt great afterwards.

If I would have had time, I would have got a massage too. Okay. Very similar story. Very similar story. Years ago, like more than 10, no, about 10 years ago, things had been crazy stressful at work. I'd been working like crazy. And I got the afternoon off and I drove up to Virginia Beach and I got myself a massage and I shopped in a mall, which doesn't sound like a big deal. But I was living in Elizabeth City, North Carolina at the time.

We didn't even have a TJ Maxx in those days. Yeah, it was amazing. Another time. Okay. Oh, my gosh. I've said before, first thing I'm doing once it's safe, I'm going to get all the spa treatments. Oh, fuck. Imaginable.

Let's go do a total spa day. Oh, my God. Yes. Oh, please. Thatinable. Let's go do a total spotting. Oh, my God. Yes. Oh, please. That is all I want. Let's film it for a bonus video. Yeah, we'll be like, this is for work. You guys, that's why you should sign up for our Patreon.

Yeah, so we can go have a spotting. But, okay. I need a microdermabrasion like so man. And I've never even had one. No so okay. I think I told you this. But there was like. Well still there.

This salon slash spa right by my old house. I loved that place. And they had this crazy fucking deal. For a really long time. It was half off facials. on the last Friday of every month. So I was going like every, yeah, I was getting monthly facials because it was crazy. It was like no money. And, you know, you just tip as if you've paid full price.

In theory, everyone's happy. Yeah. Well, I think the owner was on to me or something and was like, no. So I'm there. And I'm already feeling. Did they change the policy because of you? They did. Well, they did change the policy.

I wondered if it was because of me. Because at one point, the lady who was doing my facial was like, you know, so we've got this cool program where if you sign up for six facials in advance, you get 20% off. And I was like, Oh, cool. And I didn't say anything, but I was like,

you know, I'm getting 50%. Why would I know? Why would I know? So then she starts like, she starts working on my arms. She starts working on my legs, doing all this extra.

And I'm like, Oh my God, bonus. Oh my God. Well, turns out she was giving me like the jacked up, amazing. And so like when the bill came, I was like, all right, shame on me. Because I should have said something. But it was amazing.

But holy shit, that was expensive. I bet it was. But I'd do it again. Yeah. It was like the most amazing thing. I've never gone and like spent like the whole day. No. I want to do that. That would be so good. So bad. Where they give you like the most amazing thing. I've never gone and like spent like the whole day. No. I want to do that so bad.

Where they give you like the little salad for lunch and like a fruit cup and you pay $27 for it. Okay. Okay. I've got to tell you something. So years ago, my family went on a little trip to Minnesota. Yeah. And my mom and Kyla and I were going to do a little girls thing. So we were going to go to this little spa in town.

And so we were all excited because we'd never done anything like that. It was going to be a half-day spa thing. And we were all getting a massage, and then we were going to get the lunch thing and the pedicures. So my mom— and this is probably, probably had to be there. But anyway, so the restaurant next door would do their lunches for them.

So my mom ordered some like salad that had like sausage on it or something. And you know, you're picturing like they're going to cut up the sausage. She just got like a schlong on top of the salad. We're sitting there getting our pedicures

and my mom's got this sausage schlong on a bed of lettuce and she opened it up and she was like, well, I guess it's technically what I ordered. It's just not at all what I ordered. It was hilarious. Can't get mad. The menu description was hilarious. Can't get mad. The menu description was accurate.

Bronze Heart would like to know, you have to listen to one song on repeat for the next 24 hours. Don't embarrass me, Brandi. What is it? I've got a hot new song that I'm obsessed with and I would happily listen to it for 24 hours. that I'm obsessed with and I would happily listen to it for 24 hours. This song is

Kill Be Girl K-I-L-B-Y by the Backseat Lovers and it's so fucking good. We hear it on satellite radio all the time

because I you know I just got like a new to me car and so like I have like a satellite radio trial and like David and I will just sit wherever we are

if it comes on David and I just sit in the car and let the song finish like i have apple music i can listen to the fucking song whatever i want but when it's on there's something about it yes oh gosh i think it'd be levitating what's levitating oh yeah i hear the song all day every day oh so you're already i already hear this song all day, every day. So you're already... I already hear that song on repeat.

Yeah, because at the salon, we just kind of put on, like, you know, like, current radio. You know, like, basic bitch stuff. Is that what you're trying to say? Yeah, I feel like you're... I mean, I do like that song. And who doesn't, like, do a leap in the baby? I know. I know.

Well, I like the one with Madonna on there, too. Oh, yeah. Very good. I'm impressed by you, Kristen. Don't be condescending. That is a current song. I know. I know. Well, I like the one with Madonna on there, too. Yeah. Very good. I'm impressed by you, Kristen. Don't be condescending. That is a current song. I know. I don't know how I stumbled across it.

I've been listening to a lot of Dolly Parton lately. And, man, she's great. She sure is. Everybody loves Dolly. S. Bruns wants to know, do you ever Google new recipes? What's the best and worst you've found? The worst for me is that time that that. You made the fettuccine with the Greek yogurt?

Yeah. I knew that's what you were going to say. That skinny white bitch online lied to me. Oh, yeah. You want to have Alfredo sauce with half the calories. Get yourself some Greek yogurt. That was nasty. And no one felt sorry for me.

No. At least of all you. Yeah. You were like, yeah, that's what you get. Yeah, you put fucking Greek yogurt in there. Yeah, it tasted every bit like Greek yogurt. And the texture. Oh.

My God, the texture. my god the texture it was grainy yeah that sounds terrible i was also years ago burned by a pinterest recipe you got to look out for pinterest because those pictures look good yes doesn't mean it tastes good i made an egg i mean again i'm going to say this out loud and everyone's going to say you have no one to blame but yourself because this was disgusting. It had eggplant and goat cheese and some herbs. It was terrible. It was terrible. Yeah, I know.

I know. See, here's my thing is that I'm not adventurous at all. So most of my recipes. Never been burned, have you? Exactly. Well. Hmm. Maybe we should look at this one.

Go fist yourself once to know my brother will be starting his trial soon. I'm struggling a lot and even had to up my dose for depression medication. I wanted to thank you both for teaching me a general understanding of my court proceedings. Uh oh. Yeah. Any advice to get through this? Self-care and so on? Man, oh, I'm really sorry. Yeah, I'm really sorry that you're dealing with that.

I gosh. Self-care tips. Well, OK, so you're you're on to my first one. I mean, like I talked about how I got medication like a month and a half ago. Well, it's a little longer than that now. And it has made such a positive difference for me. So good for you on upping your dose. Like, I think that's really, really good. Yeah.

And I think that if you have an activity that like you find really rewarding or like that you get a lot of joy from, allow yourself to experience that. Like if it's a show you like yeah take some time and really enjoy that if it's you know music you like listening to i think i think those things i think we underestimate how important those things are for us yeah you know what i have underestimated i've underestimated just the power of because i think so much so much of my life has been like not listening to myself yeah in a way that can seem good because it's like well no I don't listen to myself and therefore I worked extra hard on this one thing or I got this accomplished or whatever but that's also a great way to drive yourself nuts absolutely and so as you know I've been

spending a lot of evenings in my basement doing exactly what I love, watching Ink Masters with Norman and Dottie. I think that's extremely important. I agree. Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't have said that a year ago, six months ago, three months ago. But like, medication has helped me slow down and calm down a bit. Yeah. Enough to really understand kind of what matters. Not that Ink Masters matters, but you know what I mean. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah.

That's something that I really looked at after I had London, too, was like, okay, I feel like I'm, like, pulled in all of these different directions. Like, I'm very – my time is very committed in lots of places. And so like I made a point to like have, like to schedule out like my time that I can commit to being home with David and London in the evenings. I've done a pretty good job of like sticking to that. I've, I just told you today that I was beating myself up because I have pushed myself beyond that on a couple of occasions here that I need to like rein back in.

But yeah, I think listening to yourself is huge. And like, yeah, letting yourself just be sometimes. I know. You and I are not good bees. We are not. We're big bees, but not good at bees. Yes. good bees we are not we're big bees but not good at bees yes i remember in college i had to oh god for a class i had to read a uh book about this is man this says everything about my attitude

had to read a book about mindfulness and meditation talk about something i needed to read yeah i know i need to read and i know i need to try, and I know I need to try. But I was like, oh, okay. So you want me to wash a cup and just be thinking about washing the cup at all times? No, no. The other day I tried to do yoga. Not good? I'm too wound up for certain stuff. And the thing is, like, I know it would be good for me.

Yeah. But I put on this video, and I was like, and it was beginner yoga. I'm like, okay, I am a beginner at yoga. I am here for this. And it was just, like, so slow. And I was like, well, I'm too advanced for this. So I turned that off and put on, you know, something else, and then I embarrassed myself. I couldn't do it.

So then I turned the whole thing off, and relaxation was canceled. Does this answer your question? No, but I hope things go as well as they can for your brother. Yeah, I hope things go well, and absolutely, and your brother. Absolutely. And take care of yourself. Yeah. Well, this is just bragging. There's not even a question here. What is it?

Rolla Rollo says, I just got back from Las Vegas and I did the tour of Zach Bagans' haunted museum. I got stuck on Lord Haunted there. Haunted. Haunted museum. And I got to see Charles Manson's bone fragments, his flip flops, his shirt. And I totally thought of you the whole time, Brandy. Yeah, I'm glad you thought about me. I'm very jealous.

I want to see Charles Manson's bone fragments and his flip flops. Okay. I don't get it. There is this bus tour. I don't know that it still exists, but years ago when I went to Los Angeles, I got a flyer for a bus tour that only happens like on the first Sunday of the fucking month. It's a helter skelter bus tour. Oh, my God. And it is my life's goal to get there and do that bus tour.

I would have thought it so bad. Oh my god. You wouldn't go on the Helter Skelter tour with me? I'd go with you. I think I get a little weirded out about some of these serial killers like the, oh, Ted Bundy

was so handsome. I don't think he's handsome at all. So charming. No. Charles Manson's so fascinating. I don't think he's handsome at all. So charming. No. Yeah. Charles Manson's so fascinating. I do think he's fascinating. I know you do. I know you do. Hey, you know what?

I have wild hair. I say nutty things. You're going to follow me somewhere. Hop in my dune buggy. I followed you into this fucking podcast, Kristen. This is our cult. The race war is coming. Well, should we wrap up and...

Wrap it up. Wrap it up. Yeah, let's do some Supreme Court inductions. Of course not. I came right to it. Oh, excuse me. Like a boss. I came right to it. Oh, excuse me. Like a boss. I came right to it.

This week, we are continuing to read your names and favorite cookies. Guys, we had hand choreography for that. And y'all missed it. Katie Cardoza. Homemade chocolate chip. Macy Ruppel. Reese's peanut butter chip. Reese's peanut butter chip? What?

Is that like you get the peanut butter and you get chocolate chip? Do you think it's a chocolate cookie with peanut butter chips in it? There's no such thing as a peanut butter chip. Yeah, there is. They're made by Reese's. No, it is a peanut butter chip. It, there is. Like Reese's Pieces? They're made by Reese's. No, it is a peanut butter chip. It looks like a chocolate chip, but it's peanut butter.

Uh-huh. It's exactly as it sounds, and it's made by Reese's. You're describing Reese's Pieces. No, Reese's Pieces have a candy shell on them. I know they do. This has no candy shell. It looks like... Kristen.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Get Reese's Pieces out of your mind. I can't. It looks exactly like a chocolate chip. Okay. Get Reese's Pieces out of your mind. I can't. It looks exactly like a chocolate chip. Okay. Only it's peanut butter. Okay, you know what?

Honestly, I couldn't get the Reese's Pieces out of my head. I'm with you now. Macy, let us know. Joanna Baca. Frosted sugar cookie. Jenna Morrison. Smarties cookie. She wants you to know UK Smarties, not US ones.

Yeah, that would be disgusting. April Washington. Oatmeal cranberry raisin. Emily Whiteley. Chocolate chip. Madison Snotherly. Sugar cookie. Kendall Morrow. Frostedotherly. Sugar cookie. Kendall Morrow.

Frosted sugar cookies. Elizabeth Anderson. Raw sugar cookie dough. What? Yes. What the hell is wrong with you? I love cookie dough, but that's like the most boring cookie dough there is. Oh.

Oh, you don't want raw sugar cookie dough? It's just like gritty. Yeah, gritty like sugar. Delicious sugar. You know me and my textures. I know. Hey, what if she like set it out and it went bad and stale? Then would you like it?

No. Laura Guest. Oreos. Marcella Lunn. Iced sugar cookies. Brooke Emery. Oreos. Marcella Lunn. Iced sugar cookies. Brooke Emery. Gooey butter cookies. Michelle Gutierrez.

Sugar cookie dough. Again. Not baked. What? Yeah, it's good. Nope. I'm sorry, Brooke. You can't have that as your favorite.

That's not Brooke's favorite. That's not Brooke. That's Michelle's favorite. Sorry, Michelle and Brooke. Okay. Ashley Britton. Chocolate peanut butter. That's Michelle's favorite. Sorry, Michelle and Brooke. Okay. Ashley Britton. Chocolate peanut butter. Stephanie Perez.

Chocolate chip. Casey. White chocolate macadamia. Emily C. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! About to be Emily B.

She's getting married this weekend. Oh, my God. AP will be married by the time this comes out. Okay. Back that up. Ooh! Throw it in reverse. Emily P.

Woo-hoo! Triple chocolate chunk cookie from Jimmy John's. Allie. Gluten-free Oreos. Is that a thing? I didn't know that was a thing. Okay, okay. Lisa Bon Cristiano.

White chocolate macadamia. Lisa C. Peanut butter chocolate chop. Tracy Lee. Oh, no. Oreos, but with all the white scraped out first. And no, I don't eat the white. It gets trashed.

No, Tracy. Tracy. Tracy, how could you? You can't allow. Tracy, where do you live? I will stop you. Brooke of Lynn. Chocolate cookies with white chocolate chips. I will stop you. Brooke of Lynn.

Chocolate cookies with white chocolate chips. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you guys for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts.

Leave us a five-star rating and review. Oh, look at the balls on you. The balls are huge, Kristen. Congratulations. Can barely sit in this chair. You're going to get one of those things to go on the back of your car. Yeah, truck nuts. Why do they do that? I don't know.

I don't get it. I think it's because they got teeny peenies. Right, but have you ever seen a woman with like a clitoris hanging from her car? Like, that would be so weird. But there are so many men who get these truck nuts. I don't understand. I don't think they're for us, Chris. I don't think they're for us, Chris.

I'm just willing to bet that we're not their target demographic. Brandi, let's start a business. Trucklits. Trucklits. Yeah. It looks like we got a bunch of Patrick the Starfishes. That's fine. That'll be the prototype.

We'll get sued because obviously the business will be a huge success. Anyway, be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. What if we quit the podcast? Because trucklets are like TikTok. Zoom. Get it? What if we quit the podcast? Because trucklets took off. Zoom. Get it?

And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of Vengeance, Killer Coworkers, Killing Spree, Murderpedia, Newspapers.com, and CourtListener.com. I got my info from an episode of Fatal Vows, an article for The Mirror, Murderpedia, Wikipedia, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff.