Let's Go To Court! - 170: A Catfish & A Brutal Murder

Episode Date: April 21, 2021

Brian Hile was smitten. He’d never had much luck with the ladies, but at 28, his dream had come true. He’d found a smokin’ hot girlfriend. She had long blond hair, piercing eyes, and she loved to send him sexy pictures. But after two years of dating, Brian discovered that he’d been catfished. He’d never been talking to a woman. He’d been talking and sending pictures to a man in South Africa. Brian wanted revenge, but South Africa was too far away. So he went after Tiffany Watkins, the completely innocent woman from the photos. Then Brandi tells us about Kristine Young, who became deeply concerned when she couldn’t get ahold of her adult daughter, Ashley Young. That concern grew when she realized that her daughter had recently visited an old friend, Jared Chance. Kristine had always had a bad feeling about Jared. She’d been right to feel that way.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Catfished” episode of Web of Lies United States of America v. Brian Curtis Hile on docketbird.com “Michigan stalker of Santee woman fit to stand trial,” by Dave Rice for The San Diego Reader “Online hoax prompted man’s revenge plot,” the Smoking Gun.com  “Crime of passion: How web hoax triggered revenge plot,” The Sydney Morning Herald In this episode, Brandi pulled from:  “Foul smell and trail of blood led to discovery woman's friend was really monster” by Gail Shortland, The Mirror “‘Optics not good,’ defense attorney admits, in woman’s killing, dismemberment” by John Agar, Michigan Live “Jury finds Jared Chance guilty of murder, mutilation” Fox17 News “Parents of convicted killer Jared Chance get jail for their roles after the crime” by John Hogan, WZZM13 “Father of man who killed, mutilated woman avoids retrial on perjury charge” by John Agar, Michigan Live “Appeals court upholds Jared Chance murder conviction” by Sentinel Staff, Ionia Sentinel-Standard “People of MI v Jared Chance” justia.com      YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a catfish. And I'll be talking about a gruesome murder. Of course you will. Of course you will.

Ready? How you doing over there, Kristen? A little sleepy. Kristen hit it hard today. She got up early. She worked out. She did yard work. And then she had a big old barbecue lunch.

I had a huge lunch. And I scarfed it. And I've yawned three times in the past two minutes. Yes. And you said, come on, low energy chef, get it together. You were like, whoa, this is going to be a great episode. I really love the energy you're bringing to this. It's going to be great.

Yeah. It's going to be great. Is it? Yeah. We'll find out. I guess. Stay tuned. You like a good catfishing story? I do. I do. Are you going to tell it like your

Neve? Hi, I'm Neve. Hi, I'm Neve. Will you be my gray-haired friend? Yes, I am gray-haired. No, you're not. Yes, I am. Brandy, you have no gray hairs. There are gray hairs up there. That's it. Several.

I'm going to do a Neve Schulman investigation. There are several gray hairs up there. No, there aren't. Okay, let me show you. Hold on. Oh, wait. Okay, I see one. Yeah, see? Okay.

I see one. I have a picture that I was like, oh, I'm going to take a cute selfie and I'm going to send it to David. And I can see one, two, three, four gray hairs in this picture. I mean, no one's going to see your pubes, though. Anyway, does this immediately make you want to bang me? You do look really cute in that picture. Thank you. You send him little cute in that picture. Thank you. You send him little cute pics?

Yeah. My goodness. See, when you both work from home, there's really no need. The other day, we should probably cut this. The other day, I was coming downstairs. I was wearing a robe and I just walked into Norm's office with one tit out.

You know, to keep it sexy. Keep it spicy. Not as a joke. It was to keep it sexy. That's exactly right. Because you know, one tit out

leaves a little to the imagination. You don't want to go both tits out. That's slutty. You know, that's real slutty. The way I did it was much classier. Yeah.

I was like, oh, she's a lady. Oh, I wonder what that other tit looks like. I've been looking at them for 12 years now. I think I know exactly what they look like. That's been a mystery. Yes, he's a very lucky man. You could pick you out of a tit lineup. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right? Yeah.

I could pick him out of a tit lineup. What is it specifically trying to find dicks that look remarkably similar to his? Well, yeah, that would be like, okay, they'd bring me in and they'd be like okay do you want easy moderate or difficult and i think i would i would start moderate because you know i want to get a win but i would move up to difficult

you've really given me a lot to think about. I know. I know. Could you pick David out? Yeah. Pretty cocky. Ha, ba-da-bum! Oh, hilarious. Hi, Mom and Dad. How you doing?

You know, I think in a European country, obviously not America. Yeah. I think in a European country, that could be a game show. Oh yeah, for sure. Have we just come up with a great new idea? I think we have. We're way too prude for it over here in the U.S. We wouldn't allow it. Germany? Germany.

Germany? We're coming for you, Germany. With our great ideas. This podcast turned out to be a good idea. Yeah. What else do we have? I bet there's all kinds

of stuff rolling around up here that's not too shabby. They're not all winners. I'm telling you that for sure. Has there been something you've tried that's

failed spectacularly? No. Oh. But I feel like truck clits hasn't made it off the ground yet. We don't know that people don't want truck clits. And for people who don't know what we're talking about, on a recent episode, I was talking about those balls that some weird guys hang from the back of their truck. And I was saying, like, what if there was, like, a clit you could hang from the back

of your truck? You know? I feel like the guys really have the market cornered. You have to hang the clit from the back of your Subaru for sure. Yes! There's Subaru clits. Everyone, I drive a Subaru. And yeah, I think a Subaru is very...

I think that's the market. That's right. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, this idea is really starting to gel. It is. It is.

It needed some fine tuning. I think we've done it. We're really good at brainstorming. You know what else we're really good at? What? Doing ads. Hey, you got that right. Get ready to experience an all-new Don Valley North Lexus.

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Oh, wait, what's with your face right now? My mom sent me a picture of my beautiful baby. She looks really cute. She's just having a little drinky out of her little sippy cup, and she's just being the best baby ever. Anyway, I'll put the picture away. It's fine. Did you want to talk about our Patreon? I did.

Would you like to support a child in need? Oh, my God. Please join our Patreon. Patreon. Do you remember those commercials? Yeah, with Sally Struthers? No, I'm remembering the Christian Children's Fund. Oh, yeah. With the big bushy beard.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 75 cents a day. That's right. Less than a cup of coffee. Well, so those were, I guess, kids in real need. Yeah.

We're not really in need. But we would love for you to support the show and get bonus content. That's right. If we may be so bold, for $5 a month, you get bonus episodes. We've got like 22 now. Yeah. Almost. Almost.

In a couple days. 22 out soon. And at that level, you also get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. Maybe give your age, sex, location. Maybe get catfished by someone. Who knows? Who knows? A lot of hot people in there.

A lot of supermodels with broken webcams. Yes. In our Discord. You know, I do. I do find that a lot. Yeah. Everybody's webcam is broken. Did I tell you?

What? I am having a little side thing with Channing Tatum. We're keeping it on the deal. I've sent him a lot of pics, and he's sent me a lot of pics that are in the public domain. Did you ever watch Catfish? Yeah. Did you watch the episode where the guy legit thought he was in a relationship with Katy Perry? No.

No. How? Yeah. What? Mm-hmm. And Katy. He flew to England to meet her. Yeah.

With an engagement ring. No. Yeah, it's real bad. And she just didn't. Yeah, no, a woman was there. It wasn't fucking Katy Perry. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's real bad. And she just didn't. You know, a woman was there. It wasn't fucking Katy Perry. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Okay, we got to continue with our Patreon. I know, I'm sorry. But we're going to have to talk about catfish in this story. Okay. Well, now I just want to talk about catfish. Anyway, at the $7 level. At the $7 level, we guarantee you won't get catfished. In our Discord.

You get all the things from the previous level, plus a sticker card with our autographs. You get inducted onto the podcast. You get bonus videos every month. And at the $10 level, you become a supermodel with a broken webcam. Or, as we like to call it, a Bob Moss. Get all that stuff we already talked about. Plus, you get ad-free episodes

and you get them a day early. Holy shit, you're kidding me. A whole day early? A whole day early. Is there more? There's also 10% off merch. Can't handle it. I had to whisper it because it's too much to handle. Okay, okay. So let's talk

about fucking Catfish. Yeah. What the hell is with these people? All they do on the show is they do a reverse image search. I know. I don't need Neve to do that. Right? I don't need to humiliate myself on television. You know, I find myself when I watch Catfish, just really focusing on Nev's chest hair a lot.

He is a very hairy guy. He has a lot of chest hair. Do you think he should keep it or dispose of it? Yeah, I think it's fine. I agree. I think he should keep it as well. Yeah. Whatever happened to his little buddy?

See, I haven't watched the show in a long time. His little buddy, Max. Is Max still on the show? He's gone. I think he might have come back have come back max was like setting off on a big adventure to make movies he made a movie that didn't do very well oh i saw it oh did you yeah had zach efron in it and oh so you just wanted to feast my eyes on Jack Efron. Yeah. It was, you know, I like every movie I watch. And didn't love that.

Did not love it. Very good. Very good. All right. So shout outs to, you know, the program Web of Lies. Oh, you just talked about that one. Yeah. I watched another episode of it. This one's called Catfished.

Oh. Also, a great article from The Smoking Gun and some other fabulous sources as well. Oh. Okay. It's the spring of 2006, and we're in Whale's Vagina, California. Santiago! Which is a very fitting joke for a story that takes place

in 2006. Yes, it is! Oh my God, that movie. Everyone quoted that movie in 2006. Oh my gosh, yes. Tiffany Watkins was kind of excited.

She was an 18-year-old high school senior and she'd just bought her first lingerie ever. Oh. She was a little nervous about it, but I'm not sure why, because if I looked like her, I would walk Bush first into every room. Do not say Bush first. I would walk. You should see this woman. Bush first. Brandy, I am telling you, very, very good looking person.

Yeah, if I looked like that, you'd be like, pleased to meet you. And oops, your hand would be in my vagina. Okay. So she put on the lingerie and she took a few selfies and sent them to her girlfriends to get their opinions. What did they think of the lingerie? Did took a few selfies and sent them to her girlfriends to get their opinions. What did they think of the lingerie? Did she look okay? And again, Tiffany was objectively hot. She had frizz-free blonde hair, piercing blue eyes, skin as clear as glass, one side of her face as symmetrical as the next. Shut up, Brandy. I'm not jealous. You're jealous. symmetrical as the next.

Shut up, Brandy. I'm not jealous. You're jealous. So Tiffany took these photos and sent them to her friends. And she also took a photo and sent it to her boyfriend. And since these were old timey times in the year of our Lord 2006, she took all the selfies in front of a full length mirror holding her camera. And of course, you know, every photo has one of those big flashes of light. You remember. Yeah. Twas a simpler time. Mm hmm. holding her camera. And of course, you know, every photo has one of those big flashes of light.

You remember. Twas a simpler time. Tiffany didn't want the pictures to fall into the wrong hands, so she stored them in a private, password-protected photo bucket account. What? Everyone had a photo bucket account. I didn't.

You didn't? No, no. You didn't have a photo bucket account? No, I did not. Okay, that's how you got to put pictures on your MySpace page. See, I didn't have I didn't. No, no. You didn't have a photo bucket account? No, I did not. Okay, that's how you got to put pictures on your MySpace page. See, I didn't have a MySpace page. I had a Zanga and then I went straight to Facebook. Oh, excuse me.

Yeah, uh-huh. Bypassed the MySpace page completely. Yeah, like I believe to embed a picture on your MySpace page, you had to link your photo bucket account. Oh, okay. If I remember correctly, way back to 2006. You know why I felt really fucking cool? You know, initially, Facebook was like a Harvard thing. Yeah.

And then it expanded a little bit into the Boston College of... Oh, so you got it like way early. That was so cool. It's just you and Zucks hanging out. Yep, me and the Zucks. He's giving me that dead-eyed stare. I just sat there like a rat. At least that's what I think happened.

Anyway. I think that's accurate. Her photo bucket handle was Tiffy Toodle Poo. What was your handle? BrandyPants182. Oh, my God, of course. She had about 200 photos on that account. There were the lingerie pictures, a couple of nudes, and also, you know, everyday pictures of, like, hanging out at the beach, hanging out with friends, whatever.

everyday pictures of like hanging out at the beach, hanging out with friends, whatever. Tiffany put the photos on that account and didn't give them another thought. Years passed. By the fall of 2010, she was 22 years old, and she'd been dating a guy named David Cranford for about two years, and things were going really well. Is he rich? Nobody sounds rich, does he? He does.

At least I don't think he's rich. That sounds like a rich guy name. Hello, David Cranford. I presume. Would you like to go out on my yacht? He was handsome. And he wore a sweater tied around his shoulders. Let me describe this man to you. You're going to get the perfect picture.

Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready. Okay. Handsome, white, just the right amount of rugged to make for a low-level contender on The Bachelorette. Okay. Does that describe it?

Yeah. Did you hear that? Yes! It came out as gay! Yes! I never watched that season. I never watched it either, but yeah. Well, this is riveting conversation. This is great. Some dude's gay.

Breaking news. Breaking news. Some dude is gay. Well, you know, in fairness, you do wonder, like, why does an objectively hot person with money and who's famous need to go on a show to meet somebody? Well, yeah, and I think the whole gimmicky thing with that season, which was that he was a virgin. He was the virgin bachelor.

Oh, give me a break. So it just makes a whole bunch of sense. Okay. Yeah. People are so weird about virginity. I know. Mm-hmm. It's a gift that you can only give once.

Okay. For a second. Okay. Do you remember? Sorry. One of the guys, okay, so we went to high school in a time when, like, all the pop stars were like, I'm saving my virginity for marriage. Yeah, Jessica Simpson. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then, like, it became totally appropriate for reporters to ask teenage girls whether they were saving their virginity for marriage. Very cool time. Yes. Do you remember? So, you know, it was in this time, the two of us growing up in the Bible Belt. Yeah. We were in high school and it was kind of a thing like saving it for marriage. Yeah.

I remember someone from our high school said that when you have sex with someone. It's like taking a cup yes and spinning it and each person you know sex with spits in it and then when you get married it's like you gave that cup to your bride on her way yes to drink which I remember being so grossed out and affected by it. And only later did I realize, that makes no fucking sense! I could just as easily say something now. It's like, they all take a dump on a paper

plate. And then you shove it right in their face! So anyway, Tiffany and David. It was totally normal for Jessica Simpson's dad to talk about her having sex. Do you remember that? Like he would make very public statements about how she was saving her virginity. And then when she got married to Nick Lachey, he was like, yeah, she can do it till she's blue in the face now.

And I was like, gross, that's your daughter. Yeah, he's a weird guy. Yeah. Did you read her book? Open book? What? Yeah, he's a weird guy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Did you read her book? Open book? What? What? Okay, what?

I recently checked out the audio book. Uh-huh. What? Made it, like, through the first chapter, and I was like, I don't think this is for me, and I returned it. Oh, I really enjoyed it. Did you really? I skipped around. Okay.

I didn't like the early stuff. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't care about the early stuff. I couldn't. Okay. I didn't like the early stuff. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't care about the early stuff. I couldn't get into it. I got into the later stuff. Yeah. Okay, maybe I'll get another shot. All right.

Okay. Who knows how much of this is going to stay? I know. Why are we shooting on Jessica Simpson? No, I'm not. I liked the book. I am. Well.

So they decided to move in together. Oh. David. What's his name? Cranford. Cranford. Cranford. So they decided to move in together. Oh, David Cranford. Cranford. Cranford. But it was before marriage, Brandy. Oh, shit. What do you think of that?

Pretty bad, huh? Just living in sin. Having some guy named David just moving. Moving right in. Shacking up. But you know something? Tiffany and David weren't the only ones living their best lives. Brian Heil, whose last name is unfortunately pronounced exactly like the Hitler salute, was living in Fremont, Michigan.

He was 28, unemployed, and lived with his grandma. But don't worry, it's not half as grim as it sounds because Brian was involved in a very steamy online relationship with a total hottie named Stephanie. Did she look a lot like Tiffany? Stephanie was the total package. She had frizz-free blonde hair, piercing blue eyes, skin as clear as glass, one side of her face as symmetrical as the next. I believe I've heard that description before. Oh, Brian and Stephanie were very happy together. In fact, they'd been dating for two years.

Granted, they'd never met in person or video chatted, but she lived in South Africa. So it would have been hard for them to meet up. And plus, her webcam was like busted permanently for like two years. You know how it goes. I will say, South Africa full of hotties. What? That's like where all the hot models come from. Really? Yeah.

Okay, I did study abroad in South Africa. Lots of hotties there. Cranking out the hotties down there. What's happening in South Africa? But none of that mattered. Because what Brian and Stephanie had was very real and very sensual. Because guess what? They chatted all the time online. And she sent him sexy pics. and very sensual. Oh. Because guess what?

They chatted all the time online and she sent him sexy pics and he sent pictures of his dong right back and she loved those pictures of his dong. She told him to keep them coming. Brian was thrilled. You see, he'd always had a bit of trouble with the ladies, but now he was with Stephanie, a total smoke show who loved to send him pictures of herself in lingerie. What could be better?

You don't seem happy for him. Yeah, I'm a little worried for Brian. Seems like you're a bit of a hater. worried for Brian. Seems like you're a bit of a hater. Brian and his grandma Virginia would go on walks together and Brian told his grandma all about Stephanie, all about his girlfriend. He'd met Stephanie playing a game online and she was so great. Virginia was skeptical of the relationship. She had a little trouble believing that some beautiful girl had fallen for her grandson, but he was so happy and he's such a good boy. She didn't want to burst his bubble. But you know who did want to burst his bubble? Brian's brother, Brett.

Brett had seen the pictures of Stephanie, and he was like, I don't know, man. I don't think this super hot girl had to find a dude on a whole nother continent, you know? I don't think she's real. So, two years into this very real relationship, Brian began to question, not a minute too soon, whether Stephanie actually existed. One day they were chatting online. And according to the Web of Lies episode, that chat went a little something like this.

Brian. Hey. Stephanie. Hey, you okay. Brian. Hey. Stephanie. Hey, you okay? Brian. My bro's been hassling me about you. Can you do something for me? Stephanie.

What you got in mind? Brian. Can you send me a pic of you saluting? Stephanie. No. Oh, no. Okay, now at this point in the program, Assistant U.S. Attorney Colin McDonald

explained a salute in the online world is a way parties prove that they are, in fact, who they say they are. What? I don't think so, Colin. I think in this very specific situation, he, like, named a thing. I don't think this is, like... Everybody knows that if you want to prove you are who you say you are, you salute.

I mean, for real. Yeah. You salute. I mean, for real. Yeah. It seems like the kind of thing that someone would say in like 1996 to explain the internet. Yeah. See, everybody's doing this. Let me tell you how it is.

You do a colon and then a hyphen and then a closed parenthesis. And what you've got yourself there. It's a smiley face. But Stephanie had refused to do the thing that everyone in the online world does to prove they are who they say they are. Brian's back was up against a wall, Brandy. He had to do something. So he used the same expert-level tactics that Neve uses on Catfish.

He took one of Stephanie's pictures and did a reverse image search. Hi, I'm Neve. I really liked that documentary, I gotta say. Catfish the movie was my story. Catfish the TV was my story. No, shut up. Catfish the TV show is your story. You know what I hate more than anything?

For the first half of the first sentence, I was like, what is it, Brandy? I loved the documentary. I did too. I was obsessed. Oh, was I? I thought it was so good. I think you and I love a catfish story. We do.

We love love. That's right. We love to love. Ooh, love to love you, baby. Yay! So he did the reverse image search. And trigger warning for surprises. Hold on to your hats. Oh my God, it turned out that Stephanie's pictures

were all up in the internet's business. Perhaps she wasn't Brian's girlfriend after all. Perhaps he had been catfished. Catfished, I tell you. Brian was outraged. He'd been catfished. Catfished! Stephanie's pictures were used all over the internet to advertise pornography sites.

Or pornog. Or porno. Or just porn, as we say it in the Caruso household. As we say it in the Caruso household. I'm sorry. I'm so tired. I'm getting kind of loopy. I just want people to know that you can abbreviate words.

A lot of people are still calling it pornog. Now they can call it just porn. You're welcome, everyone. It's only pornog if you have it at Christmas that was amazing now I want eggnog it's fucking april brian was incensed how could this have happened soon he discovered the true identity of the person he'd been chatting with for two years

have any guesses? No. Have any thoughts? Have any concerns? You've watched a lot of Catfish. Was it somebody that he knows? No, it was like an even hotter woman. Yeah, that's exactly.

Who was also from South Africa. Because that's where all the hot women come from. That's right. Also hot dudes. I mean, just hot. Hot. Hot. Hotties.

Just hot, hot, hot. Get ready to experience an all-new Dawn Valley North Lexus. Dawn Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop, though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500, So later, he went on a walk with his grandma, and he spilled the whole story. He told her that he'd been tricked. His hot South African girlfriend wasn't a girl at all.

It was a man, baby. He said, Grandma, and this is a quote, Grandma, it's a gay. I hate gay guys. It's a gay. It's a gay. It's a gay. It's a gay. It's a gay. I'm a Luigi. Grandma, it's a gay.

I sent my dick pic to a gay. Oh, my gosh. Brian was very upset. Okay, rightfully so. That some shitty dude had tricked him into sending news. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Sounds like he had a healthy heap of homophobia on top of that. I was going to say. Just a real devastating blow. He told his grandma that he wanted to kill the guy. But here's the thing. Brian had, like, barely traveled outside of Fremont, and I think Fremont has a population of like 5,000 people. So I doubt he had a passport. And he was unemployed, so I'm guessing he didn't have the money to travel to South Africa and attack the guy.

The dude was really in South Africa? Yeah. Okay. I mean, I assume. What? What? You got your doubts? No, I'm just here for the ride.

Okay. Oh, yeah, you never ask questions or interject or have opinions. Oh, I'm just here. I'm just going to sit here quietly the whole time. What? I'm new here. But that was okay because the catfish wasn't the only guilty party here. You know who else was just as guilty?

The girl? The actual girl? Thank you. Yes, exactly. No! You get it. No! Brandi, a lot of other people don't get it. You get it. I do not get it.

And Brian Heidel gets it. I do not get it. It is not her fault. Yes, obviously the hot woman in the photos had been in on this whole thing and she needed to pay. Brandy, he's going to need your help with this plan, okay? Because everyone else is a real hater.

It's a terrible plan. Everyone else is like, hey, I don't think she had anything to do with it. Yeah. Here's the thing, though, and I know this will surprise you, but Tiffany Watkins, the real woman from the photos, didn't know anything about this. She had no idea who Brian Heil was, and of course she hadn't worked in cahoots with this catfish. Instead, she'd been living her normal life when all of a sudden her best friend called her up. She was panicked.

She was like, hey, my brother-in-law was just on a website and he saw a picture of you. So with her best friend on the phone, Tiffany got to a computer and to her horror, So with her best friend on the phone, Tiffany got to a computer and to her horror, she saw that the private photos she'd stored on her photo bucket account were all over the internet. She had been hacked. Her nude and semi-nude photos were being used on porn sites and posted on forums. They were everywhere. Shit. This is a nightmare.

Tiffany was devastated. She tried reaching out to some of the sites to get the pictures taken down, but of course it didn't work. She explained that she'd been hacked and that they were using the photos without her permission. And in one case, the guy she reached out to was like, yeah, I'll take your picture down if you do stuff with me. Oh, God. I know. Tiffany felt powerless. It was useless to try to erase those pictures from the Internet.

They were everywhere. And things just got worse. One evening, she went out for a girls' night with her cousin, and some random drunk guy spotted her and yelled, Hey! Brittany! Brittany! Brittany Cavallari! And he came up to her and he was like, Oh my God, I recognize you! Oh my God! And she said, No, you don't. That's not my name. You don't know who I am.

But he was insistent. Yes, it's you. It's you. You're Brittany Cavallari. He pulled up a Facebook page, showed it to her. Sure enough, there were Tiffany's pictures under the name Brittany Cavallari. Oh my gosh. Tiffany was horrified. She told the drunk guy to leave her alone. And when the guy finally left, she and her cousin looked up the Brittany Cavallari Facebook account.

And there were all of Tiffany's photos, plus a bunch of photos of her family and her friends. And as the horrific icing on this shitty cake, Tiffany discovered that Brittany Cavallari didn't just share photos, she also shared opinions. Oh! Would you like to hear a few of her posts? Would I? Anyone else sick of gays stealing the limelight? What?

I know. Yeah. What does that even mean? I don't know. I spent a lot of time thinking about it. Here's what I'm guessing. I'm guessing someone saw a pride parade and got jealous. Oh, my gosh.

Ready for another one? I mean, like, because why aren't there straight parades? Oh, my God. Hey, hey, you know what they have, the BET? Why don't they have WET? Hmm? You ready for another one? I am. So when are we going to throw out the illegals?

Oh, God. Mm-hmm. This is terrible. You want another one? Can I handle it? Sure. Okay. I'm so horny right now.

Who's available? Oh, no. See, she's multif. Okay. I'm so horny right now. Who's available? Oh, no. See, she's multifaceted. I guess so. It's layers. She's got layers. She's like an onion or Shrek. Hates gay people.

Has a lot of thoughts on immigration. Super horny. Also horny. Who's available? Equal opportunity lover. Want another one? Oh, no. I hate kids. Noisy brats

need to keep out of my way. What? Cutting edge opinions coming out here. Also, she was anti-vax. I'm just making that up. I'm assuming. The people interacting with the page thought that Brittany was real, and some of those folks were, it'll shock you to hear, a little off their rocker.

They threatened to cut off her breasts. Someone posted a Photoshopped image of her in a bathtub full of blood. Oh, my gosh. Tiffany was terrified. I'm sorry. Well, you said that was really cute. That was just like the last thing I could imagine. You know what?

I was about to say, you sounded like a Midwestern mom. And there was, you are a Midwestern mom. I am a Midwestern mom. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Photoshopped her face onto a bloody bathtub. A bathtub full of blood. Goodness gracious.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I just tell the kids don't even get on the internet, you know? Tiffany was absolutely terrified. This wasn't just a violation. Now she felt that her safety was in jeopardy. Someone out there was using her image to make a lot of people very angry. What would happen if one of those people saw her out in public?

What would they do? By this point, Tiffany's real identity had gotten out there, and she was terrified by all the nasty things that Brittany Cavallari was posting online. So she went to the police. But the police were like, Sorry, this person hasn't broken any laws. I was going to say, there's no law here. Call us when you've been murdered.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. That would kill me. Yeah. That would absolutely kill me. Yes.

Great. So I just have to take it. Yeah. This is totally fine. Tiffany was living in a nightmare. She didn't feel safe anymore. She didn't go anywhere alone. In fact, she rarely left the house.

And even when she was at home, she still didn't feel completely safe. She was terrified, and the worst part was there were no systems in place to protect her. Meanwhile, little did she fucking know, a weirdo named Brian Heil was sitting in Michigan flipping out over being catfished and he was holding her responsible. But he didn't yet know her true identity. So he decided to dedicate the whole weekend to volunteering at a soup kitchen. Just kidding. He decided to dedicate the whole weekend to figuring out a soup kitchen. Just kidding. He decided to dedicate the whole weekend to figuring out the true identity of the woman

in the photos. I was like, that's an interesting move. Sometimes I wish we had video. That was one of those times where you're kind of like you were on a roller coaster of emotion. It was like, oh, well, did he really? Well, that's kind of nice. How was it? What a nice young man.

Yeah. Cool. He searched and searched and searched. Oh, well, did he really? Well, that's kind of nice. How was it? What a nice young man. Oh! He searched and searched and searched. And I'm confident he didn't shower or reapply deodorant the whole time. And at some point, he came across the Brittany Cavallari Facebook page. And he messaged Brittany. Here's how the conversation went, according to Web of Lies. Do you think these are real conversations? Yeah, I bet they are.

Okay, well listen to this one and you tell me what you think. Okay. Brian, are you really the girl in the pics? Brittany, what's it to you? Brian, I need to find her. Brittany, drop dead to find her. Brittany, drop dead, you freak. You ain't never gonna find me.

What? Brian, you lying bitch. What? This is really escalated very quickly. Brittany, the only bitch I see is you, you bitch.

Which is what I say to Brandy every time she walks into a room. By the way, of course, you know, C, just the letter C. U, just the letter U. The only bitch I see is you. Yes. You bitch. Seems a bit redundant. Yeah, but it really drives the point home.

It did. You're not going to walk away thinking I'm not a bitch. So then Brian took his investigative powers elsewhere. He got on a message board and he was like, I don't think the girl in these pictures is really Brittany Cavallari. And someone responded to him. And they were like, oh, yeah, the real girl is named Tiffany Watkins. She lives in San Diego. Finally, Brian had a lead.

He looked into Tiffany Watkins and it turned out that yes, she was the woman from the photos. And oh, what's this? She had a boyfriend named David? Well, he was probably in on this whole thing too. They both needed to pay. I don't understand that leap at all. What?

What? Clearly they were involved. Everybody was laughing at him. You know. That makes no sense to me. He's like, yeah, this girl's obviously behind it. No, clearly her pictures got stolen. Exactly.

It's just logical. Has this man ever seen an episode of Catfish? Obviously not. I think he would have really benefited from some MTV education. No, I mean, this is the dumbest thing ever. Yeah. The guy I'm mad at is in South Africa. That's too expensive too far away.

I'm going to go after someone totally innocent. Who is a victim as well because her pictures have been stolen. Splashed all over the internet. Which I still don't know who hacked into her account. I'm really, oh. Anyway. So they both needed to pay. I think we can all agree to that.

Mm-mm. Yeah. No. Tiffany, David, mm-mm. How dare they be so involved in this catfishing? Can you fucking imagine? No. But first, Brian needed more info.

So he hacked into Tiffany's Facebook account and her Gmail account, and he got her address and the names of all of her friends and relatives, and he downloaded her contacts list. This dude was pretty computer savvy, I guess. He kept a little spy. It took him that long to figure out he wasn't actually talking to the girl in the picture. Okay. That's the, I mean.

Okay, buddy. You know how it goes, though. People want to believe what they want to believe. Yeah. Oh, yeah. This really hot woman is so freaking horny for me. Right? That's what I say to myself every day.

All of these women are super horny for me. The thing is, they live in South Africa. And that's why they're not here right now. Oh, my God. If only I could go there, they'd all surround me. They'd worship me. He kept a little spiral notebook at his side, which he filled with all the things he'd need to carry out his plot.

Brandy, you look super concerned. On one page, he wrote, Supplies. Trench coat. Oh, no. Rope? Question mark. Duct no. Rope, question mark. Duct tape. Mace, question mark.

Chloroform, spelled incorrectly, of course, question mark. Knife. He's not really committing to any of these ingredients. No, so me. Okay, let me tell you what he's committed to, all right? Trench coat, duh, got to make a fashion statement, which I think trench coat would really stand out. Exactly. People, yeah, you'd want to blend a fashion statement, which I think trench coat would really stand out. Exactly.

You'd want to blend in. Tie-dye sweatshirt. Okay, trench coat, duct tape, knife, plastic zip ties. Those are the items that he does not have a question mark. All right. Color form if you're nasty. Ew. He also wrote a little note to himself, a little to-do list.

He wrote down things like, learn to pick lock. Work on ruse to get people to invite slash let me in. Make certain all info is up to date and accurate. That word, of course, is in all caps. I'll know where slash who to go to and what I can do. What? Brian compiled everything he knew about Tiffany. He knew her address, contact info of her closest friends. He knew her favorite restaurant, which unfortunately was not mentioned in any of the articles.

You know that killed me. favorite restaurant, which unfortunately was not mentioned in any of the articles. You know that killed me. Finally, in August of 2011, Brian was ready to carry out his plan. He told his family he was going on a trip to Texas. Yep, he had some friends in Texas. He was going to go visit them. Toodles. Brian didn't have a car, so he had a friend drop him off at the Greyhound bus station.

Greyhound bus. Never going to be a sponsor of this podcast. Never. Every time we mention it, it's for a terrible reason. Yes. From there, Brian headed out on a three-day long trip from Michigan to San Diego. Can you imagine a three-day trip on a Greyhound bus? Sounds terrible.

I would kill somebody. But here's the thing. Brian's family was concerned. Specifically, his older brother, Brett, was concerned. He didn't buy this idea that Brian was headed to Texas. He knew how mad Brian was about the catfishing thing, and he knew that for some weird reason, Brian blamed

the woman in the photos rather than the guy who'd actually done the fucking catfishing. Yeah. His family knew that Brian had discovered that the woman lived in San Diego, so Brett just hopped on the next flight to San Diego. Even though Brian didn't have a cell phone and Brett didn't know exactly where Brian was headed,

he was determined to find his brother in the remarkably small place of San Diego. Okay. Meanwhile, Tiffany's life seemed to be getting a little easier. It had been a while since she discovered that she'd been hacked, and even though it was all still awful, things had kind of calmed down a bit. So one night she went to a bar with friends, and her phone rang. It was a blocked number. She answered it, and all she heard was,

No, don't do that. Can't you just say that when she's breathing? Why didn't you do that? I had heavy breathing right down. But then I thought, you know what? I'm going to really give it to the people.

Give the people what they want. I don't think they want that. They want me to breathe heavily. No. Sing more on the podcast. What else have they requested? She was disgusted and scared. They really wish you'd be more open about your political opinions.

You know what? Of all the disgusting things I say on this podcast, calling Donald Trump a racist has been very controversial. calling Donald Trump a racist has been very controversial. Also, not wanting to jerk off every cop has been controversial too. Boy, some of these opinions that I think

should be pretty mainstream are very upsetting. Some of these true crimes... Oh God, now you're getting me. Look what I did. I poked the bear, guys. I poked the bear. No, I was thinking of this the other day.

So, you know, you and I are lurkers in a number of true crime communities. I have no idea what you're talking about. And I've noticed that in a lot of these situations where I'm like, I'm surrounded by like-minded people. Because I assume that if you're into true crime, what you really love is justice at the end of the day. No. No. That's false. That's fake news.

It certainly is because inevitably fights break out in these true crime communities. And it's always because the white ladies are the only bitches I see in here. Bitch. You bitch. No, so I, um, hmm. Yeah, I just don't get it. Yeah. I thought we were all here because we love justice.

Turns out some of us just like the status quo. Yep. By the way, the status quo? White supremacy. You ready for some more reviews? We're going to get so many reviews and emails. White supremacy is not a thing. You know, people have commented that I seem to get uncomfortable sometimes.

Oh, they do. And I would just like to say that I'm not uncomfortable uncomfortable sometimes. Oh, they do. And I would just like to say that it's not, I'm not uncomfortable with Kristen's views. That's not where the uncomfortable comes from. I'm really glad you're saying this, honestly. Yeah, it's that I get the anxiety about the reviews and the emails and Kristen doesn't give a fuck. I seriously am so glad you're saying that something because I think

sometimes these assholes are like, well, I have a friend in Brandy because Brandy is also I don't know, a fan of police brutality, a fan of racism. No. No, Brandy's uncomfortable

with the idea of a bunch of people saying mean stuff to us online. That's right. Anyway, kind of went off on a tangent there. We're not known for that, though. No, not at all. Is that all I want to say about that? What are your thoughts on this?

Is this bad for business? It might be. I think it probably is. Probably very bad for business. But it be. I think it probably is. It probably is. Probably very bad for business. But it's intentional. Yeah. And I'm sorry. Yeah. Because I know you're my business partner here.

No, I have that. So, you know, again, lurking in these communities. Yeah. I'm like, how do you get these people the fuck out of your community? Yeah. How do you get these people the fuck out of your community? Like, people who see nothing wrong with police brutality and a bunch of other shit, like, gross. I don't want to be part of a community like that.

I agree. And I'm sorry. I think I found the solution. The solution is you piss those people off so they stop listening. Or they hate listen and continue to update their review every episode it's a good way to spend time the amount of free time you must have on your hands anyway

so you know heavy breathing should i breathe heavily again no don't breathe heavily Anyway. So, you know, heavy breathing. Should I breathe heavily again? No, don't breathe heavily. I've got asthma, so it's really, you know. I can breathe heavier than most, and that is a brag. Can you imagine if I bragged about that? Well, guys, I'm an excellent heavy breather.

I've placed many creepy phone calls unintentionally. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. A lot of people have to, like, work hard at the heavy breathing. It just comes naturally to me. So she wondered if the caller was the person behind the Brittany Cavallari Facebook account. And more importantly, she wondered how the hell the person had gotten her phone number. Another night. Oh, Dottie just barked. Did anybody hear that?

That's Dottie. Is she sleeping? I think she is. Is that like a little dream bark? It's a little dream bark. So cute. What do you think she's dreaming about? Probably hot dogs.

Can we talk about last week? What? What are you singing? Do they dream of mauling zebras? Or Halle Berry and her cat? What are you singing? For the hangover oh god

I wanted to talk about last week so Norman's really trying to get Dottie to be more comfortable when people come to the house because right now she's like my proper and she loads her shotgun so what Brandy and I did not know

as we were sitting down to eat a delicious lunch was that Norman was preparing some food for Brandy to hand to Dottie. It's like, oh, I'm here. I'm nice. Look, I will give you these treats. I will bribe you to love me. So picture, if you will, Brandy's got a delicious like you're like some Cajun pasta. Cajun stir fry. Yeah.

Looked delicious, smelled delicious. Norm comes over with a plate full of chopped up hot dog. And we were both like, what? I was like, I don't think I ordered this. I'd like to send this

back, sir. Just plop that pit log down in front of you. Anyway. It worked. She sat next to me the whole meal. I fed her little bits of hot dog. Okay, but you know why Norman and I are

stupid? The next day we had my parents over. We ate a meal. And the whole time, Dottie was begging for food the whole time. And we were like, what the hell? She never begs.

What has happened? And then we realized, oh, my God, Brandy fed her a whole hot dog at our request from the table. Anyway, thanks for ruining my perfect little dog. You're welcome. Thanks for ruining my perfect little dog. You're welcome. Another night, Tiffany and her boyfriend David were in bed, about to fall asleep, when David got a call. Somehow that person had gotten his number too.

How the hell had that happened? By August 11, 2001, Brian finally arrived in San Diego. He made his way to David and Tiffany's house in Santee, California, about 25 minutes outside of San Diego. He had a backpack filled with zip ties and duct tape. He cased the joint, walked up to Tiffany's front door, turned the doorknob, and it opened. The front door was unlocked. They didn't lock their fucking doors? But here's the thing.

No one was inside. Oh my gosh. The house was completely empty. As it turned out, Tiffany and David had gotten into a fight. So Tiffany, just as luck would have it, had decided she needed some space and decided to go stay with her sister for a little while. Oh, my gosh. So for that night, at least, Brian's plans to murder an innocent woman went down the crapper. Oh, no. Too bad.

All that planning. So many lists. Rope? Question mark? Trenchcoat? At some point, Brian's brother, Brett, arrived in San Diego, and he brought flyers with him with Brian's face on them and asked people if they'd seen his brother. Oh, my gosh. This is not the tactic I would take.

No. Like, why don't you call him? No, he doesn't have a cell phone. Oh, he doesn't have a cell phone? No. Brian does not have a cell phone. Why though? Listen, I think, Brian, if you're looking for normal stuff, Brian's not

going to check all those boxes, okay, lady? No, right. Because it's, like, 2010. Like, everybody has a cell phone. It's 2011. Everyone has a cell phone. Yeah. He was 28.

Okay, Brian. What would you do if you were trying to find Casey in San Diego? She has no cell phone. No cell phone. You thought she was maybe up to something bad. Yeah, I'd probably go to the police. Right. Yeah.

Right, don't you think, like, just, you know, save everyone some time? Yeah. Okay, what if you decided you didn't want to go to the police? How would you do it? Would you make the flyers? I might make the flyers. Okay. Or, like, just go talk to people, like, you know, at places that I think she might go if she had some time.

Bookstores. Yeah. Yeah. You seen anybody in here looking slightly creepy but also very interested in books? Mm-hmm. And they'd be like every person that came in here today. Hold on. Stick your tongue out.

Oh, okay. Never mind. I thought you got your tongue pierced. You think I got my fucking tongue pierced? Yes. Yes. I thought I saw something. What?

You. What is it? I don't know, but I was like, that bitch did that and didn't tell me. The only bitch I see here is you. I think I must do something with my tongue when I'm like, I figured it out. What? What? I figured it out. I know What? I figured it out.

I know what it is. Is it gross? Yep. You're not the first person who has thought that I've gotten my tongue pierced. I just figured it out. You do something with your spit, don't you? Ew. Don't even talk to me about it.

Oh, that's what I saw. I saw a spitball. I thought it was a little pearl. I make bubbles with my spit. Ew. And if you were not here with me right now, I would then blow it out like into the air. I do it all the time, just like mindlessly. This is so much worse than heavy breathing.

I'll take heavy breathing all day. Ma'am, I care way too much about my teeth to get my tongue pierced. OK, I mean, I know you do have very nice teeth. Yeah. Very nice teeth. Tongue piercing? Terrible for your teeth. But you know, every now and then you show up with a new tattoo. I do. You're right.

So I don't know. I'm not attached to this skin one bit. It really clings to me if you want to know the truth. Do you have David's name tattooed on you? No. Okay, but don't lie. I'm not lying.

Okay, I think she's telling the truth, gang. I have Norman's name. Norman. On each ass cheek. It wasn't well done. It was not well done. Blah, blah, blah. Okay, so he... Brett brings the flyers with Brian's face on them.

He's going around all San Diego. Hey, have you seen this man? And get this. By some miracle, someone who worked at the bus station actually did recognize Brian. And he was like, oh, yeah, I'm pretty sure he went to downtown San Diego, which does not sound helpful at all. At all. So Brett went downtown looking every which way. Was he like singing the song as he went?

Making my way downtown. Not the song I was singing. No. Downtown. My brother got catfished and he's really mad now. So downtown. That was very good. Thank you.

Thank you. So, you know, he's just looking, looking, looking. And he sees him? Yes. Shut up! Can you believe that? No! Can you believe that?

I mean. If that happened in a movie, I'd be like, no fucking way. Get the hell out of here. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, Brett spots Brian and Brian was pissed. He was like, leave me alone. I'm just out here to get a fresh start. Looking for a job.

And Brett was like, OK, Brian, why are you really here, buddy? And finally, Brian admitted that he'd come to California to stab Tiffany and David. He wanted to watch them die a slow, painful death. He admitted that he'd already cased their house and that he had zip ties and duct tape. And Brett was like, okay, well, do you have a knife? And Brian admitted that no, he didn't. So Brett said, okay, let me help you with this. I'll help you find a knife. So they went to a Walmart that was about a mile from Tiffany's house.

Yeah. Say things. Hmm. Okay. Interesting tactic. yeah say things hmm okay interesting tactic that he's making um I have been

very puzzled by this this is the part of this story where I kind of went yeah the only

thing I can think of is that maybe it's one of those situations where like you know

when someone's freaking out. Yeah. It is not helpful at all to be like, hey, you're freaking out. Calm down. Maybe he just thought. Like, well, baby step this. Yeah. Like, maybe I'll be able to, you know, turn the ship a little bit.

Exactly. Okay. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah. So they arrive at the Walmart and Brett walked into the store but turned and realized Brian wasn't with him. Brian was nowhere to be found. He was very concerned and afraid that his brother had headed off to kill Tiffany and David. So Brett called 911, told them the whole story.

And when an officer showed up, Brett showed him the duct tape and zip ties and he showed them the notebook that Brian kept. And the officer was like, Jesus Christ. OK. So they put out a bolo alert, which, of course, means that every law enforcement officer in a specific region has to look side to side while wearing a bolo tie. Did you see me? I was so... I was busy looking to side to side, but I did see... By the way, last week

you told me what that Ariana Grande song, Side to Side, means. Yeah. And I thought, like, I had some really new hip lingo, and so I was like, Kyla, do you know what that song means? And she was like, yeah, have you know what that song means? And she was like, yeah, have you ever listened to the words?

And then Norman said like the exact same thing. It felt very silly. Very silly. Turns out everyone knows it's about riding the D, but me, I've been singing along. You're like,

what, this girl just get off a horse? Been there all night. Been there all night. Been there all day. I don't know what I'm talking about. So as soon as they all had their bolo ties on, police went to Tiffany's house but couldn't find her. They couldn't get her on the phone. They left a note on her door asking her to contact them.

By this point, Brian had been missing for two hours. But Brett and a police officer stayed in the Walmart parking lot and then Brett spotted Brian coming out from the shadows. Tee-dee! That's the sound that it made.

And then there was a clap of shadows make that sound oh you know you know the you've seen a horror film brandy i jizzed in my pants anyway you know so brian shows up I'm sure in his trench coat. Yeah. And he said he wanted to go to the police station. Oh. Right?

That's what the officer was like. Okay. Put him in a patrol car, headed off to the station. Hours passed. The next morning came. Tiffany still hadn't been located. But she came home to a sheriff's card on her door. It said, regarding Brian Heil on one side of it.

And she'd never heard that name before. Yeah, she's like, who the fuck is that? Yeah, exactly. So she called the number and she heard the whole terrifying story. Can you imagine hearing this story? Part of me would be like, don't know who fucking brian heil is i'm throwing that in the trash bullshit brandy you would be like all right i'm intrigued you would totally call okay i would do yeah i'd google him i'd be like don't know that guy

and then i'd be like should i call call? Do you think I should call? Like, I probably should call, right? They probably need to talk to me. And then I'd call. Would you be afraid that you were in trouble? Yeah, 100%. Oh my god. I told you what I did when I pulled up to my house and the Johnson County Sheriff was across the street. Yeah, pissed yourself.

Guys, I pulled up to my house. There was a Johnson County Sheriff parked across the street. and I immediately did a record search for myself to see if I had a warrant out for my arrest. I've never broken the law ever. Sounds like exactly what a criminal would say. I was sure that he was there to arrest me. You thought you could get away with it, didn't you? You know it's illegal to pee in a water park.

We've been looking for you for years. The statute of limitations is just about out. So meanwhile, Brian was in the San Diego Psychiatric Hospital. He told an FBI agent that he'd come to California to kill a slut. Oh, no. Yeah. The following spring, he pled not guilty to two counts of interstate stalking with the intent to kill, injure, or harass. But he was deemed mentally unfit to stand trial.

So he was sent to a prison medical facility, which was designed to restore him to competency. That's grim. And of course, it'll surprise no one that the place where people can be restored to competency is located in the great state of Missouri. Oh, really? Missouri! Home to frizzy-haired women with asymmetrical faces and hearts of gold! While Brian was in the great state of Missouri, he decided to fight the legal system without the assistance of an attorney.

No. Attorneys just bring you down. They just drag you down. So he just went balls out. He filed a handwritten lawsuit in which he argued his right to due process and a speedy trial had both been violated. He also said that the police never read him his Miranda rights and that he asked for a lawyer twice, but they didn't provide him with one. Interestingly, Brian won his lawsuit. Wow. He was awarded $4 million in restitution, plus three horny sluts to do with as he pleased.

I was like, what the fuck? It's very unusual to be a ported three horny slut. Usually you're lucky if you get one. No, I think that was probably just thrown out of court. Yeah, I think you're right.

It's either that or $4 million and three horny sluts. Instead, he was eventually cleared to stand trial. I guess some time in Missouri really fixed him right up. I mean, what are you? That doesn't seem right, right? Prison medical facility. that sounds horrifying. Yeah. You ready for something else that's horrifying? Yeah.

Okay. Here's the deal, gang. Every source I found on this had like a sentence about the trial. It happened in this date. Here was the verdict. Here was the sentence. And every time I was like, that's fine. I'll find something else on the trial. It happened in this date. Here was the verdict. Here was the sentence. And every time I was like, that's fine. I'll find something else on the trial.

That's fine. I'll find. Okay. I was searching, searching. Very frustrated last night. Yes. Couldn't find shit. But I was like, I'm not giving up.

And, you know, because I was so stressed, I poured myself a fresca with a shot of tequila in it, which I do recommend. Poor man's margarita. By the time I was finished with that fresca tequila, I had gotten no further in the research. And I just said, you know what? It's fine. One sentence about the trial on our court podcast? Absolutely. That is one sentence too many, if you ask some people. So here we go. You ready for this trial coverage? In August of 2013, a San Diego jury found him guilty, and he received the maximum sentence of five years. No follow-up questions, please. He appealed the decision, and his appeal was denied and in 2016 david was released under

supervision and in 2017 his supervised release was revoked oh yeah don't know what he did but i'm gonna assume it wasn't great since then tiffany has become an advocate for making online impersonation a felony. Yeah. And that's the story of a really bad reaction to catfishing. Woo! My lord. Who doggies? All right, you want to talk about a gruesome murder?

I love how high your voice goes. Hey, hey, I've got something kind of nice to talk about. There's a murder. There's going to be blood everywhere. It's going to be terrible. It's great. It's really awesome. Shout outs to my new BFF, Gail Shortland.

How dare you? You know what? I've got other friends, too. And they're really great. So Gail Shortland, turns out, she is a woman. And she did a great piece for The Mirror on this case, which I got most of this information from. Also, shout out to Jawswind, Jawswind, J-A-W-Z-W-I-N-D from our Discord who recommended this case and sent the article

by Gail, my new best friend. You know, I've been doing like a ton of fun stuff with my other friends. We all just went to Hawaii together.

Did you? Yeah. Great. I would have invited you, but like you know it's only like top tier friends

right so sorry hope that doesn't offend you I mean you've got Gail yeah

so I've got I've got Haley yeah I'm glad you and Haley are so close does it intimidate you that she also has a hot girl name sorry it's just the way the cookie crumbles also we ate cookies together crumble cookies hey did you know that there's a... Don't you dare tell me that fact again!

Oh god, I just bumped the table. Alright, let me tell you this terrible story. Are we all having fun? Oh good, let's ruin it. Let's ruin it. Christine Young was concerned. It was November 28th, 2018, and she hadn't heard from her daughter Ashley like all day. Christine was extremely close with her 31-year-old daughter.

They spoke multiple times a day, every day. Sometimes if Ashley was working, she'd take a little while to get back to her mom. She worked in a call center for a bank. So she couldn't maybe always respond right away. But even late that night, Ashley never got back to her mom. That just wasn't the norm. The following day, November 29th, Christine's concern turned into full-on panic when Ashley failed to show up at the leasing office of the new apartment she was moving into. Christine was co-signing on the lease and they'd agreed to meet there that morning to sign the papers. Only Ashley never showed up. Christine called and texted

Ashley over and over. Then she began reaching out to some of Ashley's closest friends to see if any of them had heard from her. Or maybe they knew what she'd been up to the day before. Just some kind of starting point to go off of. Quickly, she learned that Ashley had driven from Kalamazoo, Michigan, where she lived, to Grand Rapids, which is about an hour north, to visit her friend Jared Chance. This information didn't make Christine feel any less uneasy. In fact, it only made her concern grow because Jared was that friend, the one she'd warned Ashley about time and time again. He was troubled, a bit unstable,

and Christine feared that he might actually be dangerous. Wow. Just absolutely not the kind of person she thought her daughter should be hanging out with. But Ashley had always just brushed off her mom's concerns about Jared. That's just the type of person she was. She saw the best in everyone and she always rooted for the underdog. And she believed that Jared was a good person. Deep down. Like deep, deep down.

Like where no one else could see. Yeah. Deep down. Like where no one else could see. Yeah. And she thought maybe he just needed like a really good friend to be there for him and to make that good person come out. And she decided that she would be that person to him. Since Jared was a teenager, he'd been in all kinds of trouble. Trouble with the law, shoplifting, underage drinking, driving under the influence, possession of illegal substances.

Good Lord. Yeah, all kinds of trouble. And people who knew Jared described him as being wild and prone to violent outbursts. Oh. But Ashley saw something different in him. Oh, but Ashley saw something different in him. Jared confided in Ashley that he felt like he could never catch a break. Hold on. Were they just friends or like boyfriend, girlfriend?

Just friends. OK. I saw one place that like maybe they kissed at some point. Oh, OK. But like they've been friends for a very long time. They'd actually been friends for like years, like back to when they were teenagers, but had gone a few years without speaking. Uh-huh. And then Ashley had just felt really drawn to, like, reconnect to him and felt like he needed somebody to, like, be in his corner. Oh, God.

And so she had become that person. Okay. Oh, God. And so she had become that person. Okay. So Christine learned that Ashley had traveled to Grand Rapids to see Jared and that that night they'd gone out to this Mulligan's Pub. It was kind of like a dive bar, not that far from where Jared lived. And there was like a hookah bar nearby.

And like at this time, Ashley was super into hookah. And so it was like, totally made sense that that's where they'd go. And so Christine tracks down Jared's phone number and she calls him, but he didn't answer. And so she left him a message and she said, hello, Jared. My name is Christine Young. I'm looking for my daughter. I know she was last with you. Is she with you now? She needs to contact me. Tell her if I do not hear from her, I am going to go make a missing persons report. Wow. Yeah. That's a very well thought out message. I agree. I know you were the last person with her. So it's not, hey, have you seen her? Yeah. Here's what I know. Here's what's going to happen. Yes.

That's good. Yes. And it got an almost immediate response as she got a text back from Jared. And he said, yeah, you know, I was with Ashley last night, but I think she left her phone at the bar. She said she was going to go get it today. And then she said something about having to go to work, working the third shift today. That's the last I heard from her. And then he's like, but she also said that she was maybe going to go talk to this other guy today. Here's his number. Call him and see if he's heard from her. And so Christine thought this was

like a super weird response. Yeah, that's super weird. Yeah. And so but she called that number. Also, OK, I'm all about texting. Yeah. But if a friend's mom called and left a message like that, clearly very worried. Yeah. I think I'd pick up the fucking phone. Yeah. And talk to them. Yeah. And reassure them. Right.

Unless I was a murderer. Exactly. So she calls this other guy. His name's Demetrius Taylor and is like, hey, I got your number from Jared Chance. He says that you hung out with Ashley I can't get a hold of her have you heard from her and he's like who the fuck is Ashley oh no he's like I've no idea who that is I've never I've never heard of her I've never met her I'm sorry what the hell and so Christine tells him like okay I'm concerned. I haven't heard from my daughter in like two days.

She was last with Jared and Jared sent me your way. Yeah. And so this Demetrius Taylor guy is like, OK, let me see what I can find out. He's like, yeah, that's super sketch. But Demetrius did know Jared. Knew Jared, yes, but did not know Ashley. Did he go to Jared? Sorry.

Sorry. Very nice. Thank you. Yeah. Not tacky at all. Very nice. Thank you. Yeah. Not tacky at all. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So he decides he's going to, like, talk to Jared and be like, what's going on?

And Jared's like, come on, man, just lie for me. Tell her that you were. And he's like, what? No. And they're, like, texting. And Demetrius Taylor's like, no, I'm not going to fucking lie for you. And I already told her, like, I don't know you. Yeah.

And Jared texts back, you just fucked me. Uh-huh. And then he says, delete these texts, bro. Oh. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's the sound of me taking a screenshot right there. No shit.

No shit. So Demetrius is like, okay, you know, obviously something's going on here. I'm very sorry. I don't have more information.

Um, you should probably like go to the police. Yeah. And so Christine had already called the Grand Rapids police at this point

to try and report Ashley missing. But they were like, well, she doesn't live in Grand Rapids. So you need to report her missing from Kalamazoo where she lives. And so Christine tried to do that and they were like, well, she doesn't live in Grand Rapids, so you need to report her missing from Kalamazoo, where she lives.

And so Christine tried to do that, and they were like, oh no, if she was last seen in Grand Rapids, you have to report it to Grand Rapids. And so like two days go by where she's just trying to track Ashley down before anybody will take unofficial missing persons report. Well, you'd hate to have to do any extra paperwork. Right, exactly. That'd be terrible. Exactly.

Yeah, the whole idea is that she's a 31-year-old woman and like, yeah, she's free to go wherever she wants. But there's obviously reason to be concerned here. Right. Someone is exhibiting very sketchy behavior when asked, have you seen my daughter? Yeah. So Christine's able, in the meantime, while nobody will take her missing persons report, she goes to Mulligan's and she talks to them and they're like, yeah, we remember her being here, but she didn't leave her phone here. She was here with some guy, but they don't know his name. They talk about that they were both drinking, though neither of them seemed drunk when they left and that they left and went to a hookah bar right nearby.

But that's really all the last that she knows of Ashley's whereabouts that night. Finally, on December 2nd, so like three or four days after Christine last heard from Ashley, she's able to put in an official missing persons report to the police. That very same day, the police got a call from a man in Grand Rapids named Mario Nelson. He told the police that he lived in like a shared housing unit. It's like it was like two apartments, but it's like an old house and the upstairs is one unit and the downstairs is another. And so he tells them that he got home and that he walked in the door and he noticed like an odd odor. Oh, God. And then he noticed that his washer and dryer unit had been moved and kind of this like common breezeway area and that it was now kind of blocking a basement door and that he didn't move it. And there'd be no reason for his neighbor to move it because his neighbor had his own unit on his floor.

There was the exact same stackable washer unit on the top floor where that neighbor lived. Oh, my God. And so he's like, I don't know. I noticed like a smell. I noticed that the washer and dryer had been moved. And so I went to move them. And I opened the basement door and the smell got worse. And so I went down there and like held a flashlight because it's just dark in there.

So I went down there and like held a flashlight because it's just dark in there. And I see what looks to me like a tarp. And it looks to me like there's like a trail of blood that has like run off of the tarp. And so the police come out and they're like, all right, let's see. Let's see what you got. And so they go down into this dark basement of this old house. And sure enough, there is a tarp and there's some brownish liquid just kind of like running off the tarp. And they unwrap it. And inside the tarp is a human torso.

Yeah. Just a torso. Yeah. Just a torso. Oh, my God. The head, hands, feet had been removed. Oh, my God. So they officially, obviously, call this a crime scene. They go to check the building and, like, on a landing up to to the upstairs apartment because they're going to clear the building. They're going to get everybody out there so they can process it on the landing up to the upstairs apartment.

They find a cardboard box and inside that cardboard box are body parts. Oh, my God. So the arms and legs had been dismembered. And then from that, the hands and feet had been dismembered from that. They never found the hands and feet or head. They had arms and legs and a torso. Oh, my God. And this person just left a cardboard box.

There was like a cardboard box. And then inside of it were these body parts wrapped in trash bags. Just like sitting on a landing, like in a common area of a two unit housing thing. So they go up to the top apartment to get that person out of the building. Jared. It's Jared Chance's apartment. Yeah. Jared. It's Jared Chance's apartment. Yeah.

Yeah. So then they search the building. Jared Chance is not in his apartment. But they search the building, and about this time they find out that a missing persons report has been filed for someone who was last seen with Jared Chance. And so they're putting those pieces together.

Ashley's mother is told about this horrible discovery. And obviously, because of the nature of the crime, it would take days for them to identify the body. But ultimately, DNA did determine that the torso did belong to Ashley Young. God, that's horrible. Horrible. A search of the building uncovered all kinds of shit in all different places of this building they searched every like nook and cranny of this old building because like they quickly discovered that he tried to hide evidence in like a air duct that

dropped from the top apartment to the furnace unit in the basement, they found a huge amount of unused.22 caliber bullets. 439. Whoa. Yes. And then with those, they found two shell casings. Yeah. Inside Jared's apartment, they found a mop and a bucket and they found what they believed to be human tissue in the drain of the sink. They found saw blades.

They found a bathtub drain cover that appeared to have some kind of human tissue on it. They found a bunch of latex gloves. They found clothing that they believe

belonged to Ashley. Just all kinds of stuff. They found a bunch of empty bottles of ammonia that they believed had been used to try and clean up blood

or cover the smell of the body. They found like the shower curtain was missing. They found a couple of like the rings from it in the backyard of the house. But like the shower curtain had clearly been like torn down. And then they did like did a bunch of spot tests in the apartment. They found lots of where there had previously been blood. It was just a disgusting, terrible scene. What they didn't find were the missing body parts or a saw.

They found replacement saw blades, but no saw. And so they started tracking down. I'm sorry. Can you imagine if your loved one was murdered this way? No. No. How do you even go on? That would be terrible.

Yeah. Oh, terrible. Terrible. Oh. Yeah. They found like a medication bottle that had Ashley's name on it. It was very clear. Yeah. She had been in his his like there's no mystery. She was in her apartment. The body parts were hers like these. Yes. What they didn't dismemberment had been done after she was dead. She had likely died due to some kind of something to her head.

The police and investigators believe that she had likely been shot and that her body had laid in like a position on her back for like 12 hours before she was dismembered. Yeah. Because there was a lot of like blood pooling in her back. Yeah. During this investigation, they finally track down Jared Chance and they talk to his parents. They think his parents are being really weird. And so they actually secure a search warrant to search his parents' house as well. And at his parents' house, they find a whole shit ton of evidence.

Under a couch in the living room, they find a black and red reciprocating skill saw with human tissue in it. What? In the drop ceiling of his parents' basement, they find a blood-soaked towel and a blood-covered shower curtain. Oh my god. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

They find an empty bottle of ammonia that matches the exact one that they found in his apartment, and it's got like a very distinct price tag on it from Miss Tracy's Party Store, which is like an alcohol and supply store that was like or liquor store and supply store that was like right near Jared's apartment. And so then they go there and Miss Tracy's happens to have security cameras.

And so they see him coming to the store and making a purchase. And before he makes a purchase, he dumps a large orange or red trash bag into Miss Tracy's dumpster. And so they're able to go back and search the dumpster and recover that bag. And it is full of all of Ashley's belongings, her purse, her clothing, her shoes. So they've discovered just a whole host of evidence. But because they are missing body parts, the medical examiner has to basically give an opinion on a cause of death without being able to officially declare. So he's able to declare a manner of death. He's able to declare a manner of death he's able to declare a manner of death and he declares it a homicide well of course and then he goes on to say you know it is my opinion that ashley likely died to some form

of trauma to her head likely a gunshot or blunt force trauma and then these are the steps that were taken after she was dead and because of these great steps that were taken to conceal her body. Yeah. It is very clear, in my opinion, that this is a homicide. So they arrest Jared Chance and they charge him with murder and they charge him with mutilation of a body and concealing a death. They also, because of these weird statements that Jared's parents have given and then all of the evidence that they found at their house. So I guess they give conflicting statements about like they said, like on December 1st,

they had had like lunch with Jared or something and they came and picked him up and took him back to their house and then, you know, took him back. And so they searched their phone records to make sure that they're like telling the truth. Right. And the times don't match up. And they spend a lot of time in one particular like industrial complex with a whole bunch of dumpsters oh my god his parents were involved what they believe is that his parents stopped him there gave him plenty of time to dispose of various evidence in different dumpsters so that it wouldn't be oh tracked down yeah great that it wouldn't be tracked down.

Yeah. Great. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder how they raised such a great son. Yeah. I know. Isn't that? I just can't.

No. Nope. I just can't understand that at all. His dad was a former police officer. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You just can't understand that at all. His dad was a former police officer.

Mm hmm. So they are both arrested and they are charged with perjury and accessory after the fact. Good. Yeah. Ashley's mother asks the prosecution to offer Jared a plea deal if he will admit to where the rest of her body is. Under the plea deal, he would serve 31 years in prison. But he has to tell them where the rest of her body is. That's not enough. He didn't take the deal.

He wouldn't tell them what he had done with Ashley's missing body parts. And so they went to trial and her mother was just devastated by this. All she wanted was to have all of her and have some bit of closure to this

just nightmare situation. Yeah. Yeah. But he refused. Of course he did. Yeah. You're facing like life in prison and they're giving you the deal of a lifetime, 31 years. wouldn't take it.

He wants to hold the power. Yep. That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. And so Jared's trial took place in September of 2019. The prosecutors laid out, you know, what they thought they had happened. Jared had killed Ashley in his apartment and then dismembered her body.

They believe, they told the jury that he shot her. Several people testified that he very regularly brought out this.22 caliber revolver and he talked about, you know, how powerful it is to have a gun and he would like swing it around as like a party trick and like. Oh, real cool, bro.

Uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah. The neighbor testified that he had seen jared act very erratically with the gun before and he's made all kinds of claims about how he could kill somebody and get away with it he could kill somebody and make them disappear this neighbor mario who was the one who called the police when he discovered the thing in the tarp he and jared were pretty friendly with each other they smoked weed together a lot and like when they would be like sitting there after they'd gotten high i guess jared would like bring out this gun and be like oh yeah my dad used to be a cop but he's also

he was in the irish mob so like i can pretty much get away with anything okay yeah and mario just mostly thought this guy was full of shit all the time. Like, he just liked to feel like he was bragging or like he was super tough. He's like, holy shit. When they find a body in the basement of their building. Okay, man. You don't buy that? I'm sorry, but, like, a guy who waves his gun around and talks about how he could get away with killing somebody and he could make a body disappear. Oh, he goes and does exactly what he says he does.

And you're surprised? I think that I could. Okay. I'm putting myself in Mario's shoes. I'm thinking there's this guy upstairs who, like, seems to have no friends. He's just kind of weird. He's kind of a weird dude. But, hey, he likes to smoke me up.

We get high together. Like, yeah, I think he's just running of weird. He's kind of a weird dude. But hey, he likes to smoke me up. We get high together. Like, yeah, I think he's just running his mouth while we're getting high. See. There was a guy one time. I worked with this guy. Yeah. Nobody liked him. Uh-huh.

And I made a point of telling a few people. Look, if and when the news breaks that he is a serial killer, I want to be the first one on the record to be like, I knew it. Yeah, no surprises here. Okay. The guy who says he's a weirdo is a weirdo? Yeah. Shocking. Shocking.

is a weirdo yeah shocking so mario testifies to that at the trial he testifies about the discovery in the basement so there was a little bit i think the prosecution felt like there was a weakness in their case because the body was found in a common area of the building and so they did a lot with mario to testify about like why why he never would have moved the washer and dryer because they found jared chance's fingerprints on the washer and dryer and so they're like okay now tell us about how jared had his own washer and dryer and like why would he have any reason to touch yours? And like, so there was a lot of that because of where specifically the body was found in these common areas. Sure. To make sure that the jury saw, you know, OK, this, even though this is a common area, Jared Chance is the one responsible here. I feel like you could also just say to a jury, hey, have you ever moved a washer and dryer for no reason?

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. That is something no one would ever do. My old dryer at my old place just left it behind. Like that's my gift to you new owners. Exactly. Exactly. Jared's brother testified at trial and he talked about how he had gone with his parents and they picked Jared up and Jared had loaded a bunch of weird shit into the car. And then they'd gone straight home. He super swore, you know, they hadn't made any weird stops or anything like that.

And then he didn't know anything at all about there being evidence stowed around their house. He hadn't seen anything. He also didn't really remember the trip that well. He couldn't remember what time they got there because, oh, he was super high at the time. Sure. At the time. He did talk about how a few days before Ashley died, they had been hanging out. Jared and his brother, his brother's name was Conrad. They had been hanging out.

Ashley had come to visit them. And while they were there, Jared had gotten super high and he'd gotten out his gun like he does when he's super high. And he was like waving it around and he like aimed it at his brother. And Ashley had stepped in and be like, no, dude, that's not cool. You don't point your gun at people. And like Jared had put the gun away and been like, oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. I hate this. I i know i think that story right there illustrates their relationship where ashley really thought that she could like talk since into yeah into this guy and she didn't

she didn't understand the danger correct i think she didn't understand what the real danger that she was in. Which, to be fair to Mario, sounds like he didn't understand the danger either. Yeah. Yeah. The medical examiner testified at the trial and he was like, yeah, admittedly, I cannot give you a cause of death, but this is clearly a homicide. And these are the reasons. And he very systematically went through what had happened to Ashley after her murder and talked about how he knew the things he knew about what was done to her body. And very gruesome pictures were shown to the jury.

I'm sure it was horrible. Oh, terrible. Terrible. Mario Nelson's girlfriend who lived with him in that same building, she testified that she saw Jared Chance

driving Ashley Young's car after she'd already gone missing. So she had seen Ashley come and like, because Ashley had like knocked on the back door and Mario and his girlfriend had like let her in and called Jared down. So like they knew she was there that night that she ended up disappearing. Yeah.

But they hadn't like interacted with her at all. And then the very next day, the girlfriend said that she had come home from work and that she thought she smelled what like was like a sewer smell yeah in the house and so she'd gone like to the party store which was like just down the block and bought incense because she was like i don't know i think this is an old building i thought the sewer was backing up of course yeah of course you would yeah and then like two days later when the smell is just getting worse and worse and worse that's when mar Mario investigated it. The importance of the stories that Mario told and that Conrad told about how Jared would bring out his gun and wave it around, I think that the prosecution felt those were really important to their case because they needed the jury to understand that Jared had a weapon

and he wasn't afraid to brag about it and he wasn't afraid to show it to people. And so, yes, it's not. And he was reckless with it. Exactly. And it's not a leap you are taking by thinking he could have shot and killed Ashley, even though we can't prove it to you. Yeah. And I do think that's important to the narrative that they're trying to build here.

Well, absolutely. A lot of people have guns. Yeah. But most gun owners are responsible. Yes. They don't go waving their fucking gun around. I think they certainly

aren't ditching 439 rounds of ammunition down the heating duct. No, they would put that elsewhere. Yes. The prosecution played for the jury

that security camera footage of Jared coming up to the party shop and dumping the bag of trash that they were able to show to them, like contained Ashley's belongings and showing that he was coming out with the bottle of ammonia and all of that. despite all of this overwhelming evidence, the defense was like, hey, no one knows how Ashley died. So, prosecution can't prove to you that Jared is a killer. Like, that's the... I mean... Yeah, that's all they can say.

I feel like that's the only defense, right? But, you know, it's proved beyond a reasonable doubt. So, I mean, it's not just prove it, period. Yeah. Defense attorney Andrew Roddenhouse told jurors that the prosecution had failed to prove that his client killed the victim. He told them, this is a tough case. No, it's tough. Hey, good news. It's really not. It's really not. I agree. It's really not. He went out, he said, the optics on this are not good.

Yeah, it doesn't look good. No, it certainly doesn't. It certainly does not. Looks like your client's guilty as sin. He said, I get it. I get it it but there's one question that remains did jared chance actually cause ashley's death and has that been proven yeah i'm afraid so i agree i think it totally has. We've got enough here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He went on to suggest that there were other people that could have been responsible for it. Basically, like, there were common areas in the building. That's where the body was found. You know, could have been.

Did the police even bother to look into those people? Worth noting that Ashley's body parts were found in an Amazon box with Jared's name on the shipping label. Oh, good Lord. Yeah. So he was being framed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jared's defense attorney said, you know, the prosecution actually has to prove that it's him that did this.

It's like, yeah, dude, I think they did. Like, thank you for telling us how a court of law works. Yeah. Okay, great. I think we're good. Done. Yep. The jury deliberated for only four hours before finding Jared Chance guilty on all charges.

At his sentencing in October, Ashley's mom made a statement. So she had testified at the trial just about, like, the logistics about how she found out that Ashley was missing, what was missing, what she did to find her, how she knew that she'd been with Jared. So this was her first chance to really address Jared directly. And she did. She was extremely emotional. She shouted at him at times. times and she held Ashley's partial cremains in her hands while she delivered her victim impact statement she said you do not deserve to breathe if I want to hug I have to hug a box she talked about how it's torturous to not know where the rest of

Ashley is. She said, you will never tell me where she is because you like to torment people. You like to hurt them. You enjoy it. She told him that she cries every day and that she listens to a voicemail

from her daughter just to hear her voice. She keeps it on her phone and listens to it because it's all she has left of her. She said, you had no right to take her from me. Jared Chance, I hate you. I want to rip you limb from limb and discard you just like you did to Ashley. You threw her out like trash and she was your friend. Why? I listened to bits of this and there are parts where, oh, it's so emotional.

And there are parts where she's just like yelling at the top of her lungs. And like he just sat there like emotionless. Oh gosh. Ashley's best friend, Samantha, gave a statement as well. She said, you are a monster,

a coward. Ashley deserved better than this. I'll spend the rest of my life hating you. The judge told Jared that he didn't believe that the sentencing guidelines were strong enough

to entail everything that Jared had done. And so he cited a specific case that allows you to sentence outside of the sentencing guidelines in extreme circumstances. And he's like, if there was ever an extreme circumstance,

this is it. He said, this is without question the worst case that I have ever been involved with. What you did and what I saw in photographs are reprehensible and heinous. You, sir, in my mind are a very evil individual. You are clearly a monster without any conscience

whatsoever. And then he sentenced Jared to 100 to 200 years. He told Jared that he believed he was someone who was a danger to society and should never be allowed to be free. He set the minimum at 100 years. That is when he will be eligible for parole at the absolute earliest, which means he would be 130 years old. I wonder if he regrets not taking that plea deal. Right. Right. In January of 2020, Jared's father, James Chance, stood trial for the charges of perjury and accessory after the fact.

France stood trial for the charges of perjury and accessory after the fact. OK, so the perjury charges come down to statements that Jared's parents made during the investigation when they talked about how they went back. They went and picked up Jared. He was going through a hard time. He needed to come and stay at their house for a few days. But they left out that he'd loaded a bunch of stuff into the car. And then they told them we picked him up and we went straight home when their phone records showed they didn't do that. They spent a significant amount of time in that industrial area. Investigators, obviously, and prosecutors obviously just did not believe that those things were coincidences, that they had no idea that evidence was stashed in their house.

Like it was literally loaded into their car. They all were in one car together and then unloaded at their house and stashed in various places around the house. Yeah. And then, yeah, all of your phone records say together that you were all sitting in this one industrial area for a significant amount of time. So prosecutors believe that they had stopped there and allowed Jared to discard evidence in multiple dumpsters. It's their belief that that's where Ashley's missing body parts went. Can we also look into every case that guy was on? Right.

No kidding. Because he's clearly corrupt as fuck. No kidding. So he went to trial. So this is really interesting. So the prosecution wanted to start off his perjury trial by showing a picture of Ashley, just a smiling picture of Ashley. And the defense objected to it and the judge didn't allow it. They said it would prejudice the jury. In the perjury case? Yeah. And that was the defense's claim.

Like, this isn't a murder trial. Yeah. This is a perjury trial. Yet, what was allowed in were pictures of the dismembered body parts. Yeah. I don't know.

I think that's a, I mean, I. I can see how the defense wanted to keep that out. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to attach a face to it. Yeah. I am kind of surprised that that was. I was really surprised it was ruled.

Yeah. It was ruled too prejudicial. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was surprised by that. But noticial. Uh-huh. Yeah. Huh, okay. Yeah, I was surprised by that. But not the body parts.

No. Yeah. Because that's evidence in the case, because some of that maybe was loaded into the car. Yeah. Okay. Yep. So this was a pretty quick trial, and the jury found him guilty of accessory after the fact. But they found him not guilty on one count of perjury.

And then on the second count of perjury, they hung. And so the prosecution had to decide if they would retry him on that one count of perjury. In the meantime, Jared's mother, Barbara, decided not to chance it. Okay. And she pled no contest to her charges of perjury and accessory after the fact. So in June of 2020, this kind of thing was like spread out because of COVID. They were each sentenced. James Chance was given 30 days of jail time and Barbara Chance was sentenced to 45 days.

And the judge said that he would allow them to stagger their jail time so that one of them could remain home to take care of their adult son, Conrad. They will each serve one year of probation following their jail time as well. Boy, talk about getting off easy. Yeah, no shit. Yeah. Yeah, you'd hate for these great parents to not be around their adult son. That'd be terrible. Imagine what could happen.

Yeah. Yeah. Following the sentencing, the prosecution announced that they would not retry James Chance on that single count of perjury. Jared appealed his sentence. In his appeal, he said that the jurors should have been allowed to consider the lesser offense of involuntary manslaughter. So this is something that his defense team asked the judge about before the jury was given their deliberation instructions, and the judge declined. He said, no, I will not instruct them on lesser charges.

And so he appealed saying that this was a mistake of the trial judge, and he also appealed saying that the judge's sentence was too harsh and that he specifically noted that the judge called him a very evil individual when he delivered his sentence. Oh, did that hurt his feelings? Yeah. In January of this year, a three-judge panel rejected Jared Chance's arguments and upheld his conviction and sentence. And that's the horrible story of the murder of Ashley Young it is terrible in her victim impact statement Ashley's mom said I just can't I can't stop thinking about the last conversation that I

had with Ashley why didn't I ask her what she was doing where she was going I always ask her that always and maybe if she told me maybe i could have talked her out of it or maybe ashley wouldn't have told her because she knew her mom's opinion on jared yeah i was gonna say i was about to say you can't think like that but i know i'd be thinking like that yeah what if this what if that yeah Yeah. I think it's very clear that Ashley didn't know how dangerous. Of course not. Jared was. And yeah. Yeah.

So sad. Yeah. That's just so, so sad for her mom. Yeah. And for her. My God. She made this part of her statement was that when christine ashley's mom was 18 she was told that she would never have children and so then when she got pregnant with ashley it was

like this gift from god that she never thought she'd have and then oh god yeah that hit you right in the field sure fucking did yeah yeah yeah i was getting emotional just hearing you talk about yeah yeah yeah i cried when i read her statement i'm sure and then i listened to it i was like oh my gosh well yeah yeah yeah fuck the rough one yeah uh what do you think? Should we take some, uh... Questions from our Discord? Uh, yeah. Yeah, but Brady, how do they get in the Discord?

Oh my gosh, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. That gets you in the Discord to chitty chat the day away with all of your other LGTC loving friends and us. And our moms are in there sometimes. Which, you know you've wanted to talk to our moms. I know you have. Okay, Carrick wants to know, Brandy, I just want you to know I hardcore relate to you on the food pickiness. What's one thing you would starve to death before eating? Mine is tomato.

It's probably avocado. You would starve to death before you ate avocado? Before I just like bit into avocado. Yeah. I'm kind of surprised. Onion. Yeah. I thought it would be raw onion.

Raw onions. Yeah. What about a nice guac made with raw onion? That would just be the end of you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm- Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh.

Mm. Veronica H. would like to know if we're keeping up with the Kyler used case. Oh, my God, yes. We've already discussed it off the park. Okay, why? Won't we do it again? Sure. Sure.

Oh, yeah. One of us has to cover it once it's all done. I know. Okay. Fill them in, Brandi, because a lot of people are not from Kansas City and they're not obsessed. This case has been going on since 2007 when Kara Kopetsky disappeared. Everybody believed at the time that her boyfriend, who she had a protection order against, was involved in her disappearance. Years went by.

And then another girl went missing and was last seen with the same guy. His name's Kyler used. Yeah. Kyler. Kyler. K-Y-L-R. Set up to fail from birth. Again, years went by.

And then. The girls' families bonded because, I mean, it was just. Yeah. Everyone knew. Yeah. Everyone knew he'd done it. Yeah. And then a guy was out like mushroom hunting and he found their remains.

Yeah. And so that was four years ago. This thing has just stretched out. Finally, this piece of trash is standing trial for the two murders he took the fucking stand in his own defense today folks this was a huge surprise that nobody thought this was going to happen the defense like had called their last witness and then they were like fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck um i guess kyler take the stand you know he demanded oh i'm sure you know he demanded yeah he's such an arrogant asshole

so yeah i guess you could say we've been following it i we know a thing or two okay this is the most LGTC thing ever. You know what I spent a whole evening doing this week? What? I got in my bathtub, bubbled it up, filled it up to the brim, sat there with my phone, watching videos from the Kyler use trial. Yep, yep. And ooh, I was just cursing.

Mm-hmm. Okay, here's the question. We might have to cut because I don't know if i don't have an answer to this and i don't know if you will either mischievous wants to know is there any skill you've learned making lgtc that has helped you in other areas in your life or a skill you've gained somewhere else that you've been surprised to find is useful for lgtc I will say that I think LGTC has enhanced my Internet stalking capabilities. Good, because that really needed some brushing up. Yeah, I've really, really gotten good with the Google and, like, I can find whatever I need to find.

I should have asked you for help finding info on that trial. Yeah. Instead of just drinking Fresca and tequila. Oh, yeah. I want to know this. Tiffany's asked, we all know about Brandy's front yard fireball vomit incident. What's Kristen's worst drinking story? Oh, gosh.

Oh, gosh. Okay, well, truly the worst one is probably something from college that I don't even recall fully. Yes. But the one that is coming to mind, and you know this one, just because it's fucking embarrassing. The Renaissance Festival? Yes! Yes! And, okay, I know you're thinking, oh my gosh, she got drunk at the Renaissance Festival.

No, it's labor than that! It's not even that cool! Here's what happened. It's not even that cool. Here's what happened. And this was like two years ago. As a grown ass woman. Okay.

So Norman and I one night decided to watch the Sex and the City movie. We like to watch it until Carrie and Big get back together. We don't like the love part. We love the part where she's left at the altar, the scenes in Mexico, all that stuff. So we watched the Sex and the City movie, had a couple cocktails. Okay. After the movie, I went up to my office alone, mind you, and I decided that I was going to get some writing done. And, you know, a couple cocktails in, Kristen poured herself some whiskey. Lord only knows how full that glass was.

But I went up there to do some writing. Obviously, I'm sure I got nothing done. All I remember is I stood up after drinking the whiskey. And I screamed for Norman for help. Then I yelled, Norman, help, I'm drunk. Because I realized, like, I couldn't, like, I don't know. I was moving crazy. Anyway, the next day, we were scheduled to go to the Renaissance Festival with Brandy and David.

And I was miserably. Yeah, miserably hungover. Yes. I was beside myself. Like could barely go on. And David was the one who was like, you need to eat something. And I was like, no, David, you don't understand. If I eat, I'll throw up. She felt so bad that we literally stopped at a gas station on the way to the Renaissance Festival because she thought she was going to throw up.

Yeah. Because I drank cocktails and watched a movie with my husband. And then I drank whiskey alone upstairs. But what happened after you ate? I felt a lot better. David was right. Yeah. That's the moral of the story.

That is exactly right. But yeah, that's really embarrassing. It is embarrassing. You over-served yourself. Yeah, like when you're 22, you go out with your friends and you get drunk. Okay, whatever. No, I was like in my 30s alone at home, drank much by myself couldn't handle the renaissance festival the next day oh i have strong opinions on this bob moss for life wants to know breakfast for

dinner yay or nay i will say yay yay for me. I love breakfast for dinner. You do love breakfast for dinner. I do! And I'm like, ooh, what a treat! Just even thinking about it, you're smiling so hard. I am! You're like, I guess I got a pancake I'm baking. I love breakfast for dinner! I love it!

Ooh. Nipple pulley system asks Kristen, since both you and Norm live in social media spotlights, more like little lamps, how does that affect your relationship? Okay. It helps so much. For the longest time, you know, Norman was the only one with an online presence. And I honestly did not understand why he would take it so hard when people would, you know, leave negative comments. You know, not that I was a

dick to him or anything, but huge dick. But I was really like, but you have like a million nice comments. Why are you focusing on the one bad one? And, you know, just like. Isn't that the most helpful thing? Oh, my God. I cringe at some of the things I used to say because I was just like, but you're doing so well and it's all so great. And it has honestly been really, really nice for us to both experience the positives and the negatives of it. Because now neither one of us is giving each other stupid advice.

Instead, usually we'll go on walks and we'll talk about, you know, sometimes we talk about some of that stuff. And oftentimes it's just like, oh, yeah, that sucks. I'm really sorry. Yeah. Which it turns out is often the best thing you can say to somebody. That sucks. I'm really sorry. Yes.

Oh, but Days for Brandy wants to know if we have air fryers. I want an air fryer. Everybody says they're amazing. Do you guys have an air fryer? Here's the thing. I feel like a fool. I bought an air fryer like four years ago, and I used it a couple times, and I just didn't, I don't know, I didn't get...

You didn't get excited about it? It didn't blow your skirt up? It didn't blow my skirt up, and so I sold it online to a lady who was thrilled. And now I'm like, gosh, should I not have sold it? Everyone's talking like it's the best thing on earth. Everyone's talking about air fryers. I don't know. To me, it was just

another appliance taking up space in my kitchen. Yeah, that's why I don't have one because you've seen the size of my kitchen. Well, and you saw the size of my old kitchen. It was tiny. It's like, I don't have space for... There's no space for this. There's no space. No time. Hell yeah, Sarah.

Asks, thoughts on goats? I have very strong thoughts on goats. I love goats. We went... Okay, that next weekend after your Renaissance story, David and I went back to the Renaissance Festival. Oh, did some drunk bitch ruin it for you? We went back.

No, the big thing was that we couldn't get turkey legs that day. Right. Remember that? Yes. Remember that? So we went back the next weekend with David's family. Had the fucking best time of my life in the petting zoo in there. For a dollar, you got an ice cream cone full of little pellets that the goats wanted to eat.

I was surrounded. There was this goat that was just like climbing up on me. I was just in pure heaven. I was laughing so hard. I almost wet my pants. David has this picture of me where it's just like where it's just like the joy of my life just exuding off of me as I'm just surrounded by goats. What do you love about goats? I mean, they're just cute.

And they, I don't know. This is the best time ever. This is why I want to do goat yoga. I just want a goat climbing on me. Haven't you seen those little pygmy goats that just pop everywhere? They're so fucking cute. You ever heard a goat scream? I have. Terrifying.

It is. That's my favorite scene in the newest Grinch movie. In the one where Benedict Cumberbatch lays the Grinch, there's this scene where a goat just screams and it's hilarious. Anyway, I guess you could say I like goats. I guess you could. Really, when I started that, I didn't realize how strong my feelings for goats really were.

Well, I'll be honest. I saw that question. I was like, we're going to have opinions on that. Apparently, I was wrong. Who knew? Coconuts asks, thoughts on people sneezing in their masks?

Oh my God, I've not witnessed. You've not? Someone's sneezing in their mask? Okay. See, but here, I never leave the house,

so I don't have a question. I almost called the police on someone. What? They took their mask off to sneeze, Kristen. Boy, that's missing the point. Yes. I was like, what the fuck is happening?

Was this at the salon? Yes. Oh, my God. Yes. One thing I don't like about the masks, and I'll tell you this, I have noticed how often my breath smells terrible. Yeah. Okay. Sneezing into a mask, terrible.

I hate sneezing in general, though, so that's no surprise. Yeah. What I wasn't prepared for, how terrible burping into a mask is. Oh, my God. That's another one. Yeah. So bad. Well, and. That's another one. Yeah. It's so bad. Well, and I'm such an animal.

Like, I will put it on and then burp immediately. It's like, I couldn't have done that 30 seconds earlier. My God. I mean, you could do this right now. Damn it, Brandy.

Would Kristen ever model for a Costco ad? Hell yeah! Yes, you would! It'd be the honor of my life! I might! I could do it right now! You could do it right now!

The poses? Would I ever model for Costco? Absolutely. What if they paid me in all Kirkland's signature products? What if you just got like a Costco gift card to just like go crazy with? You know how Norman and I are. Sometimes we would almost

rather have a product we wouldn't even buy. He's like, I got this. I was sent this. Oh, this kombucha that we don't even drink? Well, it was free. Have you tried kombucha? Oh, God kombucha that we don't even drink? Well, it was free. Have you tried kombucha? Oh, God. You know, it's that kind of nonsense.

Kyla drinks it because, you know, Kyla's a touch more crunchy than I am. And she will drink the, is it pronounced kombucha? Kombucha, yeah. I, mm-mm. It smells like feet. Yeah. Feet and vinegar. Vinegar feet.

Okay, but you know what I drink every day? It's apple cider vinegar. Yeah, with lemon juice and water. Now, okay, I do that because it helps with my sinuses. Tastes disgusting. Does it really help your sinuses? Yes, I tell you, I would not drink it if it didn't. I was going to say, because, you know know Dr. Oz, did you listen to that

episode of Maintenance Phase? Well that Dr. Oz is full of shit. And that was one of the things he said. That you're just supposed to drink apple cider vinegar every day. He said that as a fat burner. How's your fat? Is it burning? You tell me.

You tell me. So you really get a benefit from drinking that disgusting every day. I really do think it helps my sinuses. And if it doesn't, then the joke is on me. You would not believe how bad it tastes. I could believe it. I've smelled it. Have you smelled it? Yeah. I could believe it. I've smelled it. Have you smelled it?

Yeah. Have I made it in front of you before? And I was like, I wonder if I can handle it. No! Remember, you almost got me to do it one day, and then you were like, don't do it. No, I wouldn't like, no. You're such a sensitive little thing. Okay, Millie Hugh.

This is a serious one. I like this. A little on the serious side, but Brandy, I've heard you mention your brother that has passed on. I was hoping to hear more. Do you have a funny story or moment about him that you'd be willing to share? I lost my only brother a few years ago to schizophrenia while he was at the state hospital. He was an amazingly loving and tenderhearted man and father. I love to brag about him and hoping you'd brag about yours. My brother Dan was the

funniest person I've ever known, like in my life. Yeah, he died very unexpectedly when he was 24. It's been, oh gosh, it'll be, he died, it'll be nine years ago here in a couple weeks. And, yeah, it was very unexpected. And it had a just, I've talked about on the show how much of a huge impact it had on my family. But, yeah, talking about him and remembering him is such a huge part of our family. And just, like, keeping him in our memories. And, yeah, like I said, he was just like the funniest person. And like funny without trying.

Like just the driest sense of humor. And I'm really sad that he never got to meet London because he was so good with kids. And he would have been an amazing uncle to her. But yeah, I do love to brag about my brother too. So I completely understand that. He was also super cute. He was. He was very handsome. I wasn't understand that. He was also super cute. He was. He was very handsome.

I wasn't allowed to say that back in the day. He was very handsome. And he was like everybody's friend and like the guy that everybody wanted to hang out with. Yeah. Yeah. He was a good time. Very chilled. Oh, yeah.

Very much so. Very much so. Okay. Old peep. Hmm. I wonder who likes those. Wants to know, since you guys have been friends for so long, have you ever had a falling out? If you did, how did you get over it?

Why weren't you at each other's wedding? So many questions. I love you guys. Thanks for making us laugh in these very bad, bad times. Oh, wait. Bad, bad, very bad times. And where is DP? Like, the questions.

So many questions. So, no, we never had a falling out. But we just did the thing that happens a lot, like when people go off to college. Kristen moved away to the East Coast. So we just, there was a period of our lives where we just weren't close. Right. We kept up with each other like on Facebook and stuff like that. But, yeah.

And it was during that period that I got married. Yeah. And so, yeah, you weren't, you at that wedding, but that doesn't matter anymore. Just like that wedding never existed. That was the bullshit wedding. So, yeah, we came. And my wedding was family only. Yeah.

Because I'm just not a wedding person. So it was just super small. And we weren't super close at that time. That was like right after you had to even move back here. And it took us a couple years after that to really like get back to being really close and seeing each other regularly. And that really happened like through messaging each other on Facebook. I know. That's the weirdest thing is I remember I was sitting out on my back deck one day.

And it was like it'd been a couple of years since I'd moved back to the Kansas City area. And I saw some stupid meme on Facebook about like, if you've been friends with someone for seven years, that means they're a real friendship. And it got me thinking about you. And so I reached out to you and I was like, Hey, would you want to get together for like, you know, I think we went out for margaritas and nachos, right? Yeah, we sure did, right? We did.

Yeah, we sure did. That's exactly what we did. Okay. So we got together and we like closed that restaurant down. We sure did. Which was funny because I was like, I don't even know if we're going to have anything to talk about. Yeah. And I think we were both like, it had been so long since we'd hung out that we were both super nervous.

Yes. It had literally been, oh my God, how many years had it been? Several years. Yeah, it had how many years had it been Several years Because it wasn't just like So I went off to Boston to college But then right after I moved to North Carolina I was just away for a long time And then I went to Lawrence

But yeah we just had such a good time And it was like Oh my gosh this is my This is my best friend It was like all that time hadn't passed. It was just like old times. That was amazing. So no, we never had a falling out or anything.

We just had that thing where you just kind of like drift apart. Yeah. Yeah. But now here we sit. We're just like meant to be, I guess, because we found each other again. No, but I. OK, so that's what I would say. If you have someone in your life who.

Yes. Because like, I just remember being so nervous about reaching out to you because I thought, is this going to seem weird? And if we get together, is it going to be weird? Yeah. And, you know, maybe you will do this and it will be weird and i'm sorry yeah but i it probably won't be the next if it's someone who was your friend for a long time yeah you like you haven't seen in a while it probably won't be weird i remember the next day i text you and i was like not to be like that girl after a date but like i had the best time of the night. It was so much fun. Oh, my gosh.

And look at us now. I know. It's funny. It's funny how, like, COVID times, I'm kind of like, well, I haven't had my second shot, so I don't want to hug you. Yes. But I do kind of want to hug you now. I know. I know.

It's been good. It has been. It's been amazing. Yeah. Someone else in the Discord asked, like, who initiated the friendship. I can't remember that shit at all. I have no idea. I mean, that was fifth grade.

I think we were just, like, friends by default because we sat next to each other. Yeah, our last names alphabetically lined up. Pits and pounds. So we had no choice. That's right. You could have tried to get another friend, but I wouldn't have let you. Flirty quarterbacks. Now, what tattoo would you make the other person get and wear?

I would make you get David's name on my chest. On your chest. No, what would you for real? For real, what would I get? What would I make you get? Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. For real. For real, what would I get? What would I make you get? I think I'd make you get some very meaningful quote, very small, and right here on your arm.

In the tiniest script, so it just looks like this single line. It would be the perfect tattoo for you. I don't know the quote off the top of my mind. I was going to say, if you don't know the quote, that doesn't... It does. No, it doesn't. Honestly, I'd probably do a song lyric. That's where I'm at.

Oh, yeah. I like big butts and I cannot lie. But in the perfect, beautiful little script in a single line right across your forearm. You know what I would do for you? Okay. Here's my idea. Okay. As you know, the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum

was the victim of an art heist and several paintings have gone missing and what I would do for you is a series of tramp stamps of the missing pieces that would be really funny if like if like we didn't know what we were getting.

Yeah. And you do something nice and meaningful for me and I give you. And you know, they'd be terrible because the person would be having to recreate a work of art, a priceless work of art. Yeah. The size of like a postage stamp. Because, you know, I wouldn't want it to be garish and thick. Just little bitty things. Let's do it.

I'll get your tramp stamps. Or a Mona Lisa back piece. What would you rather do? A full Mona Lisa back piece? What would you rather do? A full Mona Lisa back piece? Yeah. Yeah, baby. Mona Lisa back piece, shabam, or little tramp stamps. Little tramp stamps.

I do the little tramp stamps. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What if, sorry, what if, to be cute, the tramp stamps had like a stamp outline? Yeah, that'd be cute. And it said like 25 cents in the corner. Yeah, I like that idea.

Thank you. Full of great ideas. Very good. Very good. Oh, the people want to know. Nippy Pliers specifically wants to know. I'm re-listening to some old episodes and you guys mentioned Kristen's hot mailman. I know Kristen has since moved.

So how hot is your new mail person? There's trouble a-brewing in the neighborhood. No, okay, it's a funny thing. We had a longtime mailman in this neighborhood. Who was hot. Yeah, and everyone loved him.

And they've been changing out the male people lately just trying to find a good match but yeah it's something midtown kansas city we've got hot male people here yeah there are a lot of people around here you you look at them and you're like is someone making a movie about male people? This can't be like the actual cast of male carriers. But it's true. It's true. They're all hot. They are all hot.

Maybe you just become hot as you're. You've seen male people. Yeah. Are they generally super hot? No. No. No. people yeah are they generally super hot no no no that's why it's like when i moved to midtown i was like well my my my my my check out the eye candy at my mailbox gosh am i being creepy i'm being creepy sorry gang do you want to do more you want to do inductions what do you

do inductions oh gosh it's 5 38 we need to get you to your appointment get that one gray hair taken care of there are at least six oh my god bullshit oh those were some good questions today. I'm like worn out from a... I can barely move. All right. We are continuing to read your names and favorite cookies. I'm really enjoying reading the favorite cookies. All right.

I'll read the names. All right. I'll do it. Don't make me sing. Don't make me sing. Hmm. All right, I'll do it. Don't make me sing. Don't make me sing. Sarah. Cookie. Oh, wait, no, I'm reading it wrong.

Cookie Crisp Cereal. You remember those? I do. Oh, I used to love them. The Cookie Burglars. Yes. Julia S. Chocolate Chip Cookie from Mojo Hall.

Lucy W. Extremely Undercooked Chocolate Chip. I think they just call that W. Extremely undercooked chocolate chip. I think they just call that dough. I think so. Extreme. Sorry. H. Panda Face. Dark chocolate coated ginger nuts.

I'm sorry. That's when you get a redheaded guy to dip his nuts in dark chocolate. That's inappropriate. You're starting. Sarah H. Peanut butter chocolate chip cookies. Paola Vicencio. White chocolate macadamia.

Lisa loves wine. Chocolate chip cookies with my secret ingredient. Do you think the ingredient is wine? I think it is. That'd be disgusting. Emily. Cowboy cookies. Lindsay St. Windsor.

Oh, my gosh. I mean, I feel like I need a tuxedo on to say that name. Macadamia nut. Jacqueline Zuinich. Brown butter chocolate chip. Carrie Gunn-Smith. Pyroline. What's that?

Pyroline. Oh, those are the little. Oh, is that like. Yeah. You guys can't see, but we're. We're doing hand gestures. We're on the same. You know they come in the tin.

Oh, yeah. That long, circular, skinny tin. Megan. Toffee Caramel. AJ Henry. Oreo Lemon Cream. Those are so good. So good.

Yes. Rick Davila. Those are so good. Yes. Rick Davila. Thin Mints. Colleen Fye. Keebler EL Fudge Double Stuffed Cookies. Used their Christian name. The EL Fudge. I am.

Those are good. Those are so good. Those are really good. You know what? Every time I see them in the store, I'm like, those look gross. Norman buys them and good luck. That fudge. those look gross. Norman buys them and that fudge. Yeah. That fudge.

Good luck keeping me away. Michaela and Belknap. Cowboy cookies. This is like the first time I'm hearing about cowboy cookies. Yeah. Why aren't we making these? This looks delicious. Butterscotch, oatmeal, coconut.

I mean, there's cornflakes in there. That sounds fucking weird, but I'd give it a try. I'd give it a go. Chrissy Raboin. Homemade Christmas sugar cookies. Tyler Schilling. Snickerdoodle. Hannah H.

Dark chocolate chip pecan cookies. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Oh, my downstairs business is making all kinds of noises. I'm sorry. My downstairs business. Oh my god, that lunch. Like, I was going through

the last, like, half hour. I've been like, I remember speaking to this thing. I've been like, Oh my god. Oh my god, Oh my God. We got to wreck it. Thank you for all of your support.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. And then be sure to join us next week. Why'd you hesitate?

Was someone being distracting? Was there a beautiful dance floor? Yeah, somebody's archer flailing about across the room. Oh, I can't help that I'm so sensual. You look like you're in a Costco ad right now. You want to buy these jeans. And now for a note. You didn't say when we'll be experts on a whole new.

Oh, my goodness. You know, I'm kind of focusing on my modeling career right now, so I've kind of forgotten the term. What if I quit the podcast to be a Costco model? Yes! And I'd be like, in your face, everyone. If you miss me, you have to wait for that monthly ad to come out. Do you think I could be in the Costco magazine?

Absolutely. Dreams do come true. Would you be happy for me or would you be a little bummed that I left the podcast? Yeah, I'd be super bummed that you left the podcast, but I'd also be happy for you and your newfound modeling career at Costco. What if I got to jet set to exciting places like Minneapolis and Jacksonville, Florida? The Costco headquarters. But like I would bring you back like a giant thing of Kirkland Signature vodka as like a souvenir.

A souvenir, yeah. All right, that'd be pretty good. All right, so join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new podcasts. I mean, two whole new topics. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. So hot. And I really got gotta go to the bathroom

there's nothing down here but hit the outro Kristen okay okay and now

for a note about our process I read a bunch of stuff then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary

and I got me a page where the best starts on the web. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of Web of Lies titled Catfish plus reporting from the smoking gun

and the San Diego Reader, which I when you go Sorry. Okay. The San Diego Reader, when you go to their website, keep in mind, I knew this took place in San Diego, so I go to this website, and it's sandiegoreader.com. Okay. I read it for, like, a long time as Sandy Go Reader. What?

I was like, what kind of sketchy website is this? I got my info from an article for The Mirror by Gail Shortland, as well as articles for Michigan Live, WZZM 13, Fox 17, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. Oh my gosh.

Holy shit.