Let's Go To Court! - 172: The Murder Of Botham Jean & A Fire

Episode Date: May 5, 2021

Botham Jean had been looking forward to a quiet night at home. The 26-year-old accountant made himself a bowl of ice cream and settled into his comfy leather couch, ready to watch some football. But Botham didn’t get a quiet night at home. Instead, an off duty police officer named Amber Guyger entered his apartment. She shot twice. Judging by the trajectory of the bullet that killed Botham, he was either in the process of getting up or cowering when Amber shot him. When Amber called 911, she was frantic. “I thought it was my apartment. I thought it was my apartment,” she said.   Then Brandi tells us about a woman everyone pitied. Luz Cuevas couldn’t seem to accept that her infant daughter, Delimar Vera, had died in a house fire. She told anyone who would listen that her daughter was still alive. But that was nuts. Everyone knew that the ten-day-old little girl was dead. Years passed, but Luz didn’t waver. She was certain that her daughter was alive. She just had to find her.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Ballad of Botham Jean” episode of Impact of Murder  “Amber Guyger is sentenced to 10 years for the murder of Botham Jean,” by Marina Trahan Martinez, Sarah Mervosh and John Eligon for the New York Times “Amber Guyger trial: ‘I shot an innocent man,’ ex-officer says,” by Marina Trahan Martinez and Sarah Mervosh for the New York Times “Trial opens for former officer who killed unarmed black man in his apartment,” by Marina Trahan Martinez and Manny Fernandez for the New York Times “Ex-Dallas officer who killed man in his own apartment is found guilty of murder,” by Bobby Allyn for NPR “Brandt Jean’s act of grace toward his brother’s killer sparks a debate over forgiving,” by Bill Chappell and Richard Gonzaels for NPR “Murder of Botham Jean,” entry on wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Delimar Vera” episode Crimelines Podcast “I believe in my heart she’ll accept me” by Audrey Gillan, The Guardian “Mom Surrenders” by Jim Walsh and Jason Nark, The Courier-Post “Girl Found and Woman Held After a Ruse Lasting Years” by Jason George, The New York Times “No Contest Plea To Kidnapping Newborn In 1997” by Natalie Pompilio “Her Side of the Story” by Nicole Weisensee Egan, Philadelphia Daily News    YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the murder of Botham Jean.

And I'll be talking about a fire. Oh. Mm-hmm. The last time you covered a fire, it was... Okay, like the last time you covered a fire, it was... Well, okay, you're right. It was way worse than my fire. Okay. Your fire kicked my fire's ass.

You know, it did. Okay, anyway. Hello my fire's ass. You know, it did. Okay, anyway. Hello. Welcome, everyone. Brittany, right off the top, I think that people need to know how hot I am. Oh, my. You do look very hot. I just did Kristen's hair.

I, you know, through quarantine, I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go natural. I'm going to go natural. How long has it been since you had your hair colored? It has been. Over a year. Over a year. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, after about a year of being natural. I hate that so much. I was like, yeah, I'm done being natural. Yeah. Went red. Brandy, you did a lovely job. She looks so fucking good, guys.

Everyone, I'm officially too hot to be a podcaster. Where will I go from here? I don't know. Maybe public radio. Oh, goodness. It's kind of rainy out today. Is this what you're bringing for banter at the top of the show? It's kind of rainy out today. Is this what you're bringing for banter at the top of the show? It's kind of rainy out?

My God. My God. I'm sorry. I could just hear, like, the rain trickling. I'm worried that it's going to make me have to pee. Well, then you just stop and we, you know, you pee. Okay, great. Thank you for the permission.

Jesus. Well, I mean, you're acting like, whoa. What will we do if I have to pee? I do understand because, like, we never stop to pee for you. Always for you. Yeah. But it's not just me. You can also pee, too.

I thought it was in the contract that only you were allowed to pee breaks. You've got a hole down there, too. Feel free to use it. I'll thank you not to talk about my holes, please. I know you got yours stitched up like a drum.

That was a private conversation toward the end of last week's episode. Was that a bonus episode? I don't know. You know what? We've got bonus episodes, folks. That's right.

See, this was all on. Oh, it was brilliant. Woo! You saw it, didn't you? I just wove that right into the cover. Does this look like I'm weaving, or does it look like a sperm coming right at you? Ma'am, you are so juvenile. And I am so classy.

The Grace Kelly of podcasts I've heard the contrast between us is what makes this podcast just magical and if you want some more magic in your life then head on over to our Patreon at the five dollar level

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Why are you doing it too? Are we having a collective stroke right now? You get bonus videos. You get to see us eat the popcorn salad that almost killed the two of us. It nearly killed us both. In last week's episode, I was stunned.

You could hear my stomach roar on the microphone. Yeah. Popcorn salad. You should have taken a note out of my book and just got that right out of your body. Well, anyway, we learned a lot of lessons that day. At that level, you also get a sticker card with our little autographs. And you get inducted on this fucking podcast into the Supreme Court.

And then if that's not enough, which again, it's probably not. You're probably like, I must have more. I need more. I love it. I like it. I got to have it. Those are the sizes of ice creams available at Cold Stone Creamery. Everyone, Brandi recently went to Cold Stone Creamery for the first time in a long time.

I am fully vaxxed, so you know where I went. Cold Stone Creamery. Got myself a love it. Mm-hmm. Cake batter ice cream with Heath Bar. Not sponsored. It's just she's just bragging, too. Anyway, at our gotta have It level, we call that

the Bob Moss level. That's $10 a month. You get all of those rewards we already told you about. Plus, you can add free episodes and you get them a day early. Also, tell them. Tell the people. Tell the people what they get.

Okay, okay. Hey, hey, hey. Hey, this is just you I'm talking to. You will get 10% off on merch. Don't tell anyone else I told you. It's a secret. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right.

We did like a special thing with the audio just then. You're the only one that heard that. Delete this message. It will self-destruct. Much like we do at the end of every episode. Oh, it's true. Somebody said that if we lived somewhere

where marijuana was legal, they would have sworn that you were high at the end of the episode where you were having the stomach meltdown. You know what, though? I've got to say,

we have gotten feedback on a couple episodes that people say I sound like I'm high. And we're just high on podcasting. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Okay, we were just now talking about, like, what could be the lamest, like, what's something so lame that we could buy with podcast funds that, like, we wouldn't even. The other person just couldn't even get mad about it. Yeah.

Like, if you. And I decided. It's a T-shirt that says, hi, on podcasting. Oh, my God. Oh, you're right. I'd be like, oh, God. Oh, God. And you'd probably get one for me, too.

Oh, God. Look what I get you. Now, everybody, Brandy loves office supplies. I do. And if she got, we decided, those little paper clips, the fun paper clips, you know, the colored ones that have the stripes on them. Oh, yeah. If she embezzled from the podcast and you got that, I would feel so sorry for her that I wouldn't even mind. High on paperclips.

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. Am I going first? Yeah. Is it an even-numbered episode? I don't know. I just, your hair is so shiny. Thank you. Looks so good.

Thank you. You know, it's not really often that I do somebody's hair that I get to, like, stare at it for the next. And then you get the pleasure of staring at your work. Yeah. Goodness. Well, aren't you a lucky lady? Luck be a lady tonight. Am I right?

Do you know anything about the case I'm doing today? I do. Oh, God. You know what? When you called dibs on it, I was like, okay. You know what? Honestly, you seemed so upbeat that i was like oh no she doesn't know what i'm about to talk about i do know what you're doing you're just like pushing

your feelings down real hard yeah this is gonna be horrible gang everybody get it together um yeah if you don't know what what well hey why why why stall? Here we go. Let's just get on in there. Okay. I had never seen this show before. Impact of Murder. No. Yeah. I've never even heard of it. So the episode was called The Ballad of Botham Jean.

Impact of Murder. Very good. Also reporting from the New York Times, NPR. All the greats. Yeah. All the greatest hits. Okay. Excuse me. Let me stall a little. You the greatest hits. Okay. Excuse me.

Let me stall a little. You have so many beverages today. I fucking hate this case. Why'd you do it? Okay. Why did I do this case? Yeah. So we just recently got the verdict for Derek Chauvin.

How do you say his last name? That douchebag's right. Okay. And, you know, everybody was like, yay, you found him guilty, which, like, yeah, duh. Obviously, you murdered a man in the street. Yeah. But I— There's a whole bunch of fucking people around.

But, yeah, I understand why people were like— It could go—yeah. Yeah, it could go either way. This is America. Yeah. So then, you know, we're all relieved that he got found guilty. But then I was like, what's the sentence? I had the exact same.

Okay, did you? Okay, I'm wondering. Yes, and my whole reaction was, are they going to Amber Geiger it? Yes. All right. Yeah. Okay. Okay, that makes me think that there are probably a lot of people like us who are like, all right.

I'm glad for the verdict. I'm still waiting on the next part. Yep. So it got me thinking about this case. Also, Elizabeth City, North Carolina got me thinking about this case. So here we go. Okay.

Today, I'm going to tell you about a man named Botham Jean. And Brandy, a less cultured person might see how Botham's last name is spelled and think, J-E-A-N. I know that word. It's Jean, like a pair of jeans. I know all about jeans because I've worn them literally dozens of times in the past year. But Botham was from St. Lucia, which is an island that's up to its eyeballs in French influence. And as a bit of a Francophile myself,

I'm happy to enlighten you. Easy, Thomas Jefferson. That it's buffet, not buffet. Beignet, not beige net. And Jean, not Jean. Okay. Solid information. Here's why I'm an idiot.

I didn't know until I watched this episode. I've been talking about this case for like two years. I actually always thought it was Botham Jean. Yeah. Yeah, not Botham John. Okay, I have something even more embarrassing to say. What? Yeah, not Botham John.

Okay, I have something even more embarrassing to say. What? I once knew a guy named, I now realize, John. Uh-huh. Did you call him Gene? Yes. I'm like, I'm trying to think back. Like, did I?

I remember being so confused because I'd seen his name spelled and been like, why are people messing up his name? That is so rude. And so knowing me, I probably went out of my way in front of other people to be like, hello, Gene. God. I once. What is it? What did you do? I once was at an intimate dinner with the vice president of the corporation that I worked for. And I ordered a dish with a side of corn ragout that I pronounced ragout.

Oh, no. Ragout. Oh, no. Rag out. And as soon as it came out of my mouth, I was like, that's definitely pronounced rag out. That's amazing. Thank you for your vulnerability today. You're welcome.

It was literally just me and the vice president of my company. Oh no! So my market, this is when I was district manager, my market was like number one in the company. She was like coming to do a market visit. We were having a fancy dinner. We were at the Bristol. Oh yeah. Like the minute it came

out of my mouth, I was like, no! Go away! I'll have the cabernet and the rag out please so seriously thank you for saying that because i have been literally mortified ever since i watched this episode of this show, thinking back like, oh my god, I'm sure I called that guy Gene. I'm like 100% positive I called him Gene. And the worst part is I thought everyone else was stupid. So Botham was a great source of pride for his parents, Allison and Bertram.

Allison described Botham as the glue of their family. Because get this. Okay. Botham was the middle of her three children. And that was an important position because these kids were spread out. Botham was 10 years younger than his sister, Alyssa, and 10 years older than his little brother, Brant. Kyla and Jay joke about how they have the dream age gap, seven years.

That's what everybody goes for. Well, try 10 and 10. That's our age gap, too. Jack's seven years older. Really? Yeah. Maybe it is a thing people are shooting for. I don't think it is.

I don't think it is either. Botham was a great positive force in his family and in his community. He had a big smile. He was super religious. He was a natural leader. I always feel kind of creepy saying this about people, but I feel like you should know. He was good looking. Yes.

Okay. But by the time he was 19, it was 2011, and he was at a crossroads. He had big dreams. He had a goal to attend college in the United States, get a few years of work experience, and then come back to St. Lucia and become prime minister. But that was tough. First of all, it's difficult to go to another country for college. Yeah. But it was even harder because Botham's little brother, Brant, was still so young.

Botham felt guilty, like maybe he was leaving his quiet little brother too early. But, you know, he knew he'd come back to visit and Brant would visit him in the United States. So Botham took off for Harding University in Searcy, Arkansas, I think is how that's pronounced. Okay. Searcy, Arkansas, I think is how that's pronounced. Okay. Searcy, Arkansas. Best known for... Nothing. No, I'm sure they're known for something.

I just don't know. He chose Harding in large part because of its religious affiliation. Harding is associated with the Churches of Christ, and that was very important to both of them. So he got to Harding, and he flourished. You look miserable right now. Are you going to be okay? I'm fine. I know, you're just waiting for, yeah, okay. He studied business, and he took on leadership roles, and he made friends, and by the time he graduated college, he had an even better idea of what he wanted to do with his professional life. He wanted to become an accountant. And boy, did he.

He got a job at PricewaterhouseCoopers. And if you didn't know, PricewaterhouseCoopers, or PWC, as it's referred to in the Caruso household, is the second largest professional services network in the world. They do. What? The envelopes for the Oscars. Oh, do they really?

I'm pretty sure. Oh, that's actually a hot tip there. I don't know. Maybe I just made that up. Did you make that up? Brandy, damn it. You're thinking of the publisher's clearinghouse. Did I make this up?

Nothing's coming up. Oh, no, that's right. All right. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Brandy, coming in with a fact. All right. You ready for me to hit you with another fact?

Let me roll my sleeves up here. Okay. Very proud of myself pwc is one of the big four accounting firms that's right pwc is right up there with those three other big accounting firms i won't bother naming any of them because we all know which ones i'm talking about i'll just give you a minute to think about them. So, yeah, I don't know much about accounting. But, I mean, this was a big deal.

Yeah. So Botham was doing his thing. He had a great career. He had a really nice modern looking apartment. And the building had a courtyard and a pool and a great view of Dallas from the rooftop. And he had found a church family that he really loved at the Dallas West Church of Christ. It's probably not surprising that Botham was super involved in his church. He was a worship leader and a great singer.

But life wasn't perfect. He understood that as a black man living in America, he faced a lot of prejudice. He told his little brother that he didn't even walk into a store with his hands in his pockets. There was just a certain level of racism and prejudice, and he knew that as a black man, he had to take extra precautions to protect himself. That makes me so sad. Just like, yeah. Knowing that that's his reality. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. We'll get ready to be more i know i fucking know this case so i know yeah he made it a point to always drive the speed limit to always dress formally his family said he wore ralph lauren almost all the time just because he was trying to protect himself if there was an extra thing he needed to do to protect himself, he did it. But then came the evening of September 6th, 2018. It was about 5.30 p.m. and Botham called his sister Alyssa and he was headed home for the day and he was pumped. Because, okay, she said he'd had a wisdom tooth removed. But do you have just one? Possibly.

Possibly. Is that a thing that happens? Yeah. Okay. So he had a tooth removed a few weeks earlier. And his dentist had just told him, hey, you're good to eat ice cream now. So he was like, I'm going home to eat ice cream. And she was like, okay, well, don't eat the whole tub because I'm pretty sure that's not what the dentist meant.

And he's like, yeah, whatever. the whole tub because I'm pretty sure that's not what the dentist meant. And he's like, yeah, whatever. Because Botham was pumped to spend his Thursday evening on his big comfy couch, watching some football and eating a big old bowl of ice cream. He had the gotta have it size. That's right. So Botham and Alyssa talked as he drove home to the Southside Flats apartment building. And he parked in the parking garage, and he went up to his apartment, unit 1478. And as he got into his apartment, he was like, all right, you know, bye. And as soon as they hung up, Alyssa was like, what? He didn't tell me he loved me. I'm going to give him hell the next time we speak. time we speak.

No. Several hours passed. Then, a few minutes before 10 p.m. at the Southside Flats apartment complex, two shots rang out. Everyone in the apartment complex was

stunned. Their building was like two blocks away from the police department. So they never heard gunshots, let alone in their own building. What the hell had just happened? Pretty soon people came out to the courtyard to see what was going on, and it was just chaos. Police officers descended on the scene. Ambulances pulled up.

People noticed a blonde white police officer nervously pacing the fourth floor. Soon a man was wheeled out of an apartment on a stretcher. He was rushed to the hospital, but he didn't make it. 26-year-old Botham Jean had been shot through the heart by someone. by someone. Around midnight, Botham's sister Alyssa was asleep at her home in Brooklyn, New York. Their mom was in Brooklyn with her visiting, and Alyssa woke up to a phone call from a 214 area code. She was like, oh my god, that's Texas. So she picked up, and it was a social worker from the hospital where Botham had been rushed to. And the social worker told Alyssa that her brother had been shot and killed. Oh, my gosh. Alyssa was stunned.

I cannot imagine getting a phone call like that. She told her mom, Allison, and Allison, I'm getting goosebumps. And Allison could not make sense of it. They had no details. And what they did have didn't make sense. Allison said, I couldn't understand what she meant by he died. I couldn't understand it. I felt that how could he die?

I wonder if that's really common when someone is so young. Yeah. Yeah. So today is the nine-year anniversary of when my brother died. Yeah. I was at work when I got the phone call that he had died. And I was like, no, that's not possible. Yeah.

I thought for sure that I had misheard. Yes. Yeah. I thought for sure that I had misheard. Yes. Yeah. And then, like, I rushed to my parents' house and I was like, I'm going to get there and find out. And find out, like, what really happened. Yeah. Yeah. Don't you think that is so universal?

Oh, absolutely. In a situation like that? Yeah. That's heartbreaking. Yeah. How are you doing? I'm doing good. I am.

So both women tried to make sense of the information. Had Botham been killed by a stray bullet? Was it a robbery gone wrong? Had he been out at a restaurant and there was a shooting? Honestly, I think if I was originally from another country and I heard that someone in America died from a gunshot, I'd be like, mass shooter. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, but Allison was still kind of trying to figure it out. And she thought, you know, I don't think my son keeps bad company. I don't think he would have been, you know, hanging out with people who would have done

this to him. But how could this have happened? It was all so devastating and strange. Finally, a woman from Botham's apartment complex called Allison and told her that Botham had been shot in his apartment by a police officer. Allison and Alyssa didn't waste time. The very next day, they flew out to Dallas. And when they got there, Alyssa spoke to a detective and she asked a pretty natural question. She wanted to know if the officer who'd killed her brother had been arrested. Yeah. Yeah, that's a completely reasonable question. reasonable question. You know, I would almost say, well,

no, the race element would make you ask, but I would think it would almost be unthinkable that the person wouldn't be arrested. But the detective said, no. The officer was on administrative leave, but hadn't been arrested.

Alyssa couldn't believe it. Her brother was in the morgue, and this officer was out free. And they still had no idea why this officer had shot both of them. They'd have to wait for details because

officers have 72 hours to turn in their statements. Hmm. What? Civilians don't get that luxury. Hell no. Yeah. Hell no.

Wow. Yeah, civilians don't get to sit at home. No. And think it over or maybe get coached. Mm-hmm. Or, like, think of the best possible way you could outline the scenario. Someone knows how this story ends. That's neat.

Yeah. By the way, I should give just another good shout out to this episode of Impact of Murder. A lot of this comes directly from that. So it was very helpful. Eventually, a few details did come out. The Dallas police chief announced that a female Dallas police officer had gone home to her apartment complex after her shift ended. She was in uniform when she encountered Botham, and at some point, she fired her weapon and killed him. At some point, she fired her weapon and killed him.

Yeah, I'm going to need a lot more detail than that. Okay. See, I think this is why I liked this show. Yeah. It was totally told from the victim's family's perspective. And, oh, my God, I had never thought of what it would be like to have this vital information just kind of trickle to you. Yeah. That is maddening.

Yeah. Can you imagine? That's what you get to... Oh. No. Well, someone, a female police officer... Encountered him. Yeah.

And in his own apartment and shot him and killed him. And that's it. There you go. Wow. So, you know, as you've already pointed out, that left a lot of questions unanswered. Namely, who the hell was this person? And why had she shot a guy in his own apartment? Yeah.

Almost immediately, you know, theories sprang up and people were like, okay, was she acting as like a resource officer for the apartment complex? Were these two dating? Did they get into some kind of fight? Did they have a history with one another? You know, they found out she lived directly below him. Maybe there had been some kind of like noise complaint. You know, who knows? Botham's mom, Allison, wondered, was this woman drunk?

Had she been on drugs? Which I think that's, honestly, isn't that kind of what you would suspect? At this point, Botham's family had enough. Their loved one was dead. His murder seemed sketchy at best, and they felt like they were getting the runaround. So they hired civil rights attorney Lee Merritt. And Lee Merritt is no joke. He's a federal civil rights attorney who specializes in representing victims of police brutality, hate crimes, discrimination. You get the deal.

Also, just throwing this out there, he understands the importance of a pocket square. No. Okay. I love a pocket square. I like a pocket square. No. Okay. I love a pocket square. I like a pocket square too. Norm's suit. So, I mean, obviously we didn't know COVID was coming. But like he got a new suit because he hadn't gotten a new suit in a million years.

Pocket square to go with it. Man, you talk about, I mean, kicks it up 12 notches, a pocket square. That's right. Why don't more men wear pocket squares? Or ladies. Yeah, anybody could wear a pocket square. That's right. Yeah.

I'll be thrilled every time I see one. That's right. Unless it's too matchy-matchy. Mm. Mm-hmm. I do see what you're saying. Okay. Okay.

Have I stalled enough? So around this time, a Texas ranger named David Armstrong took over the case and asked to meet with Lee and Allison to fill them in on, you know, what happened the night Botham was killed. And they were like, absolutely. OK, let's hear the details. Let's hear the details. And at the beginning of the meeting, this Texas Ranger told them that, you know, hey, once you get this whole story, you're going to understand that this was all a big, unfortunate mistake. Oopsies, fudge stripes. Don't worry. Hey, hey, I know what you're concerned about.

There was no ill will, no malfeasance. Oh, malfeasance oh malfeasance huh yeah none of that i know that's what you're really concerned about we all make mistakes this was just a blunder okay i'm sure he wasn't that flippant about it but he was really trying you know from their perspective he was really trying to sell them on oh my gosh terrible mistake and lee and allison were like uh what allison said someone makes a mistake and i lose my son and that's it they got the deeply unsettling vibe that the police officer who killed Botham Jean was going to walk free because she'd made a mistake. So now it was Sunday. Botham had been dead for three days.

And the DA's office made an announcement. The officer who'd shot Botham Jean had been arrested. Not a minute too soon. Yeah. By the way, I realize we have some international listeners. So at this point, I'd like to pause and explain that in America, when you kill someone and the police know that you killed someone, it's totally normal for them to let you chill for a few days before they arrest you. No. You just you kick back.

Nope. And you just do whatever, you know. Nope. Watch some TV, veg out, and then you face the confirmation. I mean, it's not false here. It's not false here. You're right. It's called the MGP, or more formally, the murder grace period.

And we all know about that. Okay, but even though it did take a while for the police to actually arrest the officer who killed both of them, the important thing is that they eventually got around to it, Brandy. Okay, so just relax. Because you know what? This is America. You can't just go into someone's home and shoot them and get away with it. You will get charged with murder.

Oh, wait. Excuse me. Manslaughter. Police officer Amber Geiger was charged with murder. Oh, wait. Excuse me. Manslaughter. Police officer Amber Geiger was charged with manslaughter. Fuck. Yeah. Yeah. So, oh, fuck,

is because manslaughter is a lesser charge. It's really more about, oh, you were reckless. And murder is intent. Intent, yeah. Which I would argue when you aim your gun at someone and fire, you probably intend to kill them. Yes. But what do I know?

To kill them. Yes. But what do I know? So, you know, she was arrested. Twelve seconds later, she got out on bond. And around this time, Amber's story came out. Would you like to hear it? Yeah.

So she'd just gotten off a long shift at the police department. And she got to her apartment complex, the same one where both of them, Jean, lived, and she made the mistake of parking on the wrong level of the parking garage. She didn't notice that she was on the fourth floor when she should have been on the third floor. She put her key in the door and she noticed that the door was ajar. I said ajar like I tried to turn it French. God. Okay, so one. I was so, I've been so nervous about sounding like a Midwestern hick. And I'm like, every time I see a J in the script, I'm like, be careful with that one.

Careful. The door was ajar. Ajar. with that one. Careful. The door was a shut. A shut. Okay, one thing they said in this episode

that I didn't see other places was they said that the apartment complex had recently replaced all the doors and they've done it

kind of on the cheap so that you could shut your door. You think you've shut it but it would kind of pop out a little bit. So, at any rate, she goes to unlock your door. You think you've shut it, but it would kind of pop out a little bit. So at any rate, she goes to unlock this door.

It's already ajar. And she heard someone inside. She opened the door, gun drawn, and saw a man. She ordered him to show his hands. But he didn't. He came toward her. She thought he was going to hurt her. Did she? So... With that bull

ice cream? Hey, you eat enough bulls of ice cream that will kill you. So, thinking she was in her own home, she fired two shots. And she didn't notice that like it wasn't her fucking furniture.

Right. He also had a bright red and I mean like very bright red welcome mat in front of his door. She didn't notice that either. So

Amber's story raised some eyebrows and so did those charges. The Jeanne family's attorney, Lee Merritt, was suspicious. He thought her story had undergone some changes. For example, he noticed that in all the body cam footage from when officers first arrived on the scene. I think it's footage. You asshole. Amber was frantic.

She kept saying, I thought it was my apartment. I thought it was my apartment. I thought it was my apartment. It seemed very clear that she'd walked into what she thought was her apartment

and she just shot both of them. Mm-hmm. No witnesses said they heard her order Botham to show his hands. But now, days later, her story was a little different. It wasn't just I thought it was my apartment. It was I thought it was my apartment and i thought botham was a burglar and crucially i thought he was coming at me and he didn't comply with my request basically it's his fault sure yeah sure uh-huh which that is rich, is it not? Yes.

I walked into someone else's apartment. And then when they were like, maybe like got up and were like, what the fuck are you doing in my apartment? Yeah. Then I shot them. Yeah. And this is their fault. Yeah. Holy hell.

Holy hell. Lee Merritt and his best friend, me, suspect that maybe she told her story. I'm sorry, Brandy, it's over between us. No, no. I'm going to Lee Merritt with his pocket squares. He suspects that maybe she told her story to the police and they helped her craft a narrative that would fit in better with the deadly force defense. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

That's exactly what happened. Oh, 100%. Because you are allowed to use deadly force if someone is on your property coming after you intending to do you harm. But, you know, I don't know how that works when it's not actually your property. In his fucking apartment! Yeah. Yeah, man. My voice got very high.

I know, I know. This story is infuriating. He was unarmed. Yeah. Amber's... You should have seen the way he was holding that spoon. Very threatening. Yes.

That spoon was dripping. Ugh, this is infuriating. Here's another thing. I'm wondering if you remember this part. So her story could maybe fit a deadly force defense, but the evidence really didn't match it. She said Botham was coming after her, you know, at a high rate of speed.

Oh, he's just charging after her. But the bullet entered Botham's body right above his nipple, went through his heart, and stopped in his lower back. Yeah, he was in a seated position. Yeah, so it's really, it's two options. Either he was crouched down, cowering, or he was in the process of standing up, which you might be if you were like, huh, some random person just burst into my apartment. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

This is just a personal note. I just found this interesting because so I had never seen crime scene photos of this. I haven't either. And when I heard this story of like two years ago of like, oh, this officer, you know, comes in and all of a sudden he's right there. And I was picturing the only apartment I've ever lived in because like I I mean, I obviously rented for years, but it was always in like old houses and all that stuff. I mean, I obviously rented for years, but it was always in like old houses and all that stuff. And in this apartment that I rented, the layout was you open the front door and boom, you are in the living room. And so that's what I was picturing was they would at least be super close to each other.

OK, that wasn't the layout at all. Really? That's exactly what I've pictured this whole time, too. Right. Not that that would justify anything. No, no. But I feel like you need to know the layout of this apartment. Okay. So, hang on.

The layout of his apartment was that, you know, there's like a little entryway hallway and a door to the left, maybe like a coat closet, I don't know. And further down, the area opens up into like an open concept kitchen with the three pendant lights over the countertop. And further back, there's this nice big open living space. So Botham had this place set up like any single dude would. You know, he had the kitchen and then his computer with two monitors, you know, gaming station, if you ask me. And beyond that, he had a big leather couch and a big circular leather ottoman. And that was all facing a flat screen TV with the Xbox.

Yeah. Is that not the most single dude apartment ever? Yeah. So when Amber walked in with her gun drawn, they weren't super close to each other. I mean, it appears from where his body landed. Yeah. I mean, they just weren't, they couldn't have been that close. Yeah.

And also, I mean, if she did get further into the apartment, wouldn't she have noticed, oh, this isn't my fucking apartment? And it doesn't look anything like a single woman's apartment. I'm sorry to be all gendery, but, you know, come on, man. on that note when David and I first started talking before I ever went to his apartment

he he told me that he was like a PC gamer and then he was like he I was like I guarantee you I can tell you exactly

what your apartment looks like and he's like no and I was like okay first of all your computer is set up where the dining room is and he's like

I don't want to talk about it that's 100% set up where the dining room is. And he's like, I don't want to talk about it. That's 100% exactly where it was. And I was like, and then you have a living room, nothing on the walls. Nope. You've got a couch and probably a recliner. Yep. And a TV.

Yep. He's like, yeah. And I was like, and your recliner does not match your couch. No. Oh, no. Are you kidding me? Hell no.

Might be a bit of an aroma coming from it. And so, the first time I went to his apartment, he was like, see, it's nothing like you described.

And it was like 100% to the T, exactly as I described it. Is this the law? If you're a single man living on your own, you have to have that exact setup? Two monitors. Well, duh. Of course. Duh. Yes.

And the TV is like the most expensive item in the entire... Yeah, yeah. So, you know, parts of the story didn't make sense and parts of the story

were missing. Yeah. For example, footage from the scene that night showed that officers arrived at Botham's apartment and tried to save him. Footage also showed that after arrived at Botham's apartment and tried to save him.

Footage also showed that after Amber killed Botham, she was placed in the driver's seat of a police vehicle. And of course, a camera inside the vehicle was rolling. And another officer advised her, just whatever you do, don't talk about it. Which is advice that they give to murderers all the time. Yeah, I don't think so. Hey, don't talk to us about it. Don is advice that they give to murderers all the time. Yeah, I don't think so. Hey, don't talk to us about it. Don't say a word, man. Yeah. Shortly after that, Mike Mata, the Dallas Police Officers Association president, arrived

on the scene and instructed the officers to turn off that dash cam. So Amber got some special treatment. Then came September 13th, 2018. It had been a week since Botham was murdered. And his family held a funeral in Dallas. And hundreds of people showed up to mourn the loss of this young man. Botham had been very well loved by a lot of people. He was a really good person, very well respected.

Both of them had been very well loved by a lot of people. He was a really good person, very well respected. But the story of how he died, murdered while sitting in his own home, rattled people. We'd already had a bunch of stories about police brutality for, you know, forever. But this one, where a guy was murdered in his own home, was just beyond egregious. People demanded justice. They demanded change. And on the day of Botham Jean's funeral, the police released some information, which was reported by the media. Very important information, Brandy.

Game-changing information. You've seemed really bummed out and sad and really biased, if you ask me. Uh-huh. Biased is the word they use when you don't just love the cops in every single story. So here you go. They'd done a search of Botham's apartment, okay? Okay. And you know what they found in there?

Some pot. So... So basically he deserved to be shot by the police in his own apartment. Are you fucking kidding? Yeah, the day of his funeral, they released the information that he had a little bit of pot

in his apartment. Holy shit. Are you kidding me? What does that have to do with anything? Nothing. What does Amber Geiger have in her apartment? Yeah. Do we get to know that?

Botham's family was. That's ridiculous. Yep. Yep. But it happens all the time. Have you noticed? Hey, this guy was super into drugs, so this is not nearly as bad as it looks, folks. Yeah, that sounds familiar. Oh, my gosh.

Oh, this person had a criminal record, so let's all calm down. Holy shit. I don't think I'd ever heard that. Yeah, I'd forgotten it. That's terrible. Botham's family was understandably enraged. He had been an innocent victim, and now his murderer was being charged with manslaughter, and people were talking about a 26-year-old guy having some pot in his apartment as if that, like, changed things.

Yeah. Botham's mom, Allison, spoke out publicly. She said she wanted justice for her son. She said that her son's life mattered. And people agreed. Botham Jean's life mattered. And that meant that his killer needed to face murder charges, not manslaughter, murder. So 10 days after Botham died, activists took to the streets during a Dallas Cowboys football game.

They marched outside AT&T Stadium. I'm sure the cheerleaders were inside doing a great job as they always do. Big fan of the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. The protesters had a lot to be angry about. Okay, here's something I had just totally forgotten. Just five days before Botham Jean was killed in his own apartment, a 24-year-old black man named O'Shea Terry was shot dead by a police officer during a traffic stop. So O'Shea's family and Botham's family joined the protesters outside the stadium and they wheeled caskets alongside them shouting for justice.

Yes. I know. Oh, my gosh. This story became big news and sparked conversations all over the nation. And Congressman Mark Vesey, Vesey, Vesey, anyway, gave a powerful, boy, what an asshole am I? I loved this guy's speech. And so I'm going to read you part of it. I bet you I am not pronouncing his name correctly.

Although it does not appear to be French, so I don't know what my excuse is. He talked about Botham Jean's murder and said, I'm heartbroken that this man was killed in his own apartment, a place where all of us should feel safe. But what gets me most upset is that nothing has changed. I firmly believe that if Officer Geiger had walked into that apartment and seen a white man, she would not have pulled that trigger. And that is the root of the problem. What I can say with certainty is that I am tired of waiting for a time on it. And it was about to hit another turning point. Because in Texas, felony charges go before a grand jury. And in this case, the grand jury had to

decide whether the manslaughter charge should stand or be upgraded to murder or dropped because holy shit, that was an option. And the grand jury was like i'm sorry is this a trick question you walked into somebody's apartment aimed your gun at them and killed them sounds like murder to me sounds like murder so they upgraded the church to murder because they weren't dumb asses and amber's defense team was pissed they were were like, this is all political. It wasn't based on the facts. The facts that you walked into some poor man's apartment and killed him. Yeah.

It's so funny how people throw around the word political. Like, yeah, people are upset because this is racist and wrong. Yeah. But you don't get to just call it political and then dismiss the whole thing. Amber's attorney was a man named Robert Rogers. And Brandy, I don't mean to sexually excite you, but Robert Rogers has a neck like Mitch McConnell and is a dead ringer for Republican political consultant and teen heartthrob Carl Rove. Woo! Woo! Woo!

Calm down. You're all steamed up over here. Do you need a minute? I see you need a minute. And after the grand jury upgraded the charge, he told the media that his client had simply committed a justifiable homicide. The grand jury should have dropped the charges. Justifiable?

Yeah. Yeah. And right after... Oh! The grand jury must not have heard about the pot. Right. Right. Because as we all know, the penalty for having a small amount of pot is...

And yeah, they'll just walk in and shoot you. Yeah. Fun fact. Right after he said that, he burst into flames and was sucked back down into hell because it was dinnertime in hell. And Hitler had just made popcorn salad for the whole gang. They were going to eat popcorn salad. Stop saying popcorn salad. And watch all the Lord of the Rings movies back to back with no pee breaks.

So while the defense was busy eating a combination of popcorn, mayo and chestnuts, the media was busy trying to get a hold of the 911 call that Amber made after she shot Botham. But the police had refused to release it. They said releasing the call might interfere with the trial. You know, they're just concerned about justice. That's all. Calm down. But finally, in April, a local news station got the tape. The call was released anonymously, and it shed a lot of light on Amber's state of mind after she shot Botham. Okay, so I've got the transcript pulled up right here. Okay.

I'm going to go ahead and—I don't know that I'm going to read the whole thing. Okay. But I— I think it says a lot. Okay. Word count-wise, or— That was a joke. I know.

I'm going to be interested in your take on this. Okay. Dispatcher. Dallas 911, this is Carla. What is your emergency? Amber. Hi, this is an off-duty officer. Can I get, I need to get EMS.

I'm in. Dispatcher. Do you need police as well or just EMS? Amber. Yes, I need both. Dispatcher. Okay, what's the address? Amber.

Fuck. I'm at apartment number 1478. I'm in 1478. Dispatcher. And what's the address there? Amber. It's 1210 South Lamar, 1478. Dispatcher. And what's the address there? Amber. It's 1210 South Lamar, 1478. Yeah, I... Dispatcher, what's going on? Amber, I'm an off-duty officer. I thought I was in my apartment and I shot a guy thinking it was my apartment. Dispatcher, you shot someone? Amber, yes, I thought it was my apartment.

I'm fucked. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. Dispatcher, where are you at right now? Amber, I'm in. What do you mean? I'm inside the apartment with him. Then you hear her turn to Botham because you can hear him moaning a little bit.

Oh, my God. She goes, hey, hey, come on. And the dispatcher says, what's your name? And Amber says, I'm Amber Geiger. I need, get me, I'm in. Dispatcher, okay, we have help on the way. Amber, I know, but I'm going to lose my job. I thought it was my apartment.

Oh, my. She's not even concerned about him. I'm going to read the whole thing. Okay. Yeah. But, yeah. I'm fucked. Yeah.

And I'm going to lose my job as a man lays dying. Dispatcher. Okay. Amber. Hey, man. She's talking to both of them. Dispatcher. Hold on.

Amber. Fuck. Dispatcher. Okay. Stay with me. Okay. Amber. I am. I am. I'm going to need a supervisor. Hey, bud. Hey,

bud. Hey, bud. Come on. Oh, shit. I thought it was my apartment. Dispatcher. I understand. We have help on the way. Amber. I thought it was my apartment. Hurry, please. Dispatcher. They're on their way. Amber. I need, I, I thought it was my apartment. I thought it was my apartment. I could have sworn I parked on the third floor. Dispatcher, okay, I understand. Amber, no, I thought it was my apartment. I thought it was my apartment. I thought it was my apartment.

I thought it was my apartment. Dispatcher, and what's the gate code there? Amber, I don't know. I don't know. Dispatcher, you don't know? Okay. Amber, I thought it was my apartment. Holy shit. Dispatcher, they're trying to get in there. We have an officer there. You don't know the gate code? Amber, no, I thought it was my apartment. I thought it was my apartment. Dispatcher, and what floor are you on right now?

Amber, the fourth floor, fourth, fourth. Hey, bud, they're coming. They're here. I'm sorry, man. Dispatcher, where was he shot? Amber, he's on the top left. Dispatcher, okay, you're with Dallas PD, right? Amber, yes.

Oh, my God, I'm done. I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to. I'm sorry. Hey, bud. Dispatcher. They're trying to get there to you. Okay. Amber. I know. I, I stay with me, bud. Holy shit. Oh my God. Dispatcher. Okay. They're trying to get to you. Do you hear them? Do you see them? Amber, no, no. Oh, my God. How the fuck did I put the, how did I, how did I, I'm so tired. Oh, they're here. They're here. Dispatcher, okay, go ahead and talk to them.

And then you hear her say to the officers who come in, it's me. I'm off duty. I'm off duty. Fuck. I thought it was my apartment. I'm off duty. Fuck. I thought it was my apartment. I thought this was my floor. Oh, my gosh. So what are your thoughts?

My first thought is that she's not even attempting to give him any kind of aid, which is just like basic police training. Right. Right. Yeah. She's completely worried about herself. You have literally the exact same opinion as Botham's mom. So I'm going to.

So here's the here's the thing that's crazy. A lot of people after they heard that call, felt sorry for Amber. But his mom, Allison, said, that call angered me because what I heard was someone who was all about herself. I didn't hear whether he's conscious. Are you applying pressure to the wound? Are you giving him CPR? Nothing that suggests that there was any concern for my son. I'm getting goosebumps. Are you giving him CPR? Nothing that suggests that there was any concern for my son. What?

I remember. I'm getting goosebumps. The part where she says, I'm fucked. Yeah. And says, I'm going to lose my job. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Someone is next to you losing their life.

Yeah. Yeah. yeah the other thing that is not mentioned is oh I thought he was a burglar oh he was coming after me no oh he no no because that's not true

no you know what is true I thought it was my apartment I thought it was my apartment I thought it was my apartment I believe that I don't think she went there like trying to no I completely agree. Yes. But. Yeah.

But yeah. At no point was he. No. Coming at her. Going to attack her. Oh my God. Oh my God. I don't believe that at all.

No. Yeah. I don't. Yes. I do believe that she walked into an apartment. Mm-hmm. Thinking it was hers. Sure.

And saw a man there. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I don't believe he made any move to attack her or threatened her in any way. So the other interesting thing you mentioned about protocol of, like, why wouldn't she be trying to, like, help him in some way. You know what else is protocol? When you get to a place and you think there's been a break-in, you don't go in alone. Yeah. You call for backup.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway, I should really let the prosecution say that in a minute, but I just had to say it now. Meanwhile, journalists were digging into this story, trying to get more information on Amber, and they were perplexed to find no social media presence. It seemed like she'd taken everything down, but she'd evidently forgotten to take down her Pinterest page. So she'd been probably coached to take everything down. Probably. Yeah.

And wow, her Pinterest page revealed a lot about her sense of humor. Would you like to hear about a few memes from Amber Geiger's Pinterest page? Oh, no. Okay, so picture this. It's a minion, you know, from the... That movie... Despicable Me. Oh, no. Okay, so picture this.

It's a minion, you know, from the, what's that movie? Despicable Me. Yeah, yeah. So it's a minion, and the text reads, People are so ungrateful. No one ever thanks me for having the patience not to kill them. Holy shit. She had that on her Love to Laugh page.

Oh, shit. She had that on her love to laugh page. She had another meme, and this image was of a sniper, and the text read, One shot, one kill, no luck, all skill. And under that, she'd commented, by the way, not a punctuation mark in sight. Yeah, I got me a gun, a shovel and gloves. If I were you, back the fuck up and get off my fucking ass.

Cool, man. A police officer. Yikes. You sound fucking unhinged. Yeah. Also, what the hell is that meme? That's like the modern, that's like the grown-up equivalent

of a big dog shirt, right? Yeah. She shared another one. The image was of Colin Kaepernick kneeling to protest police brutality, which, you know, that's a horrible thing to protest. And, you know, I'm fine with them protesting. Okay, I'm fine with that. But do they have to do it there? Huh?

Just not there. Don't do it at the NFL games. And don't do it downtown. And don't you dare throw a brick through a target. And you can protest because that is your right as an American. But just do it quietly in your own home and don't let me see it or hear about it. Thank you. That's all I ask.

That's all I ask. That's all I ask. Who wants to go to the Capitol with me? I'm going to piss on Nancy Pelosi's desk because I'm an American. So, you know, you got the image of Colin Kaepernick. Yeah. And the text read, the NFL died, dot, dot, dot, of Colin cancer. Ha, ha, ha. Oh, my gosh.

Hilarious. What do you think of the people who get so wound up about people kneeling during the anthem? Well, okay, it's the same people who are like, I just don't like violent protests. Well, they do peaceful protests, and you lost your fucking mind over it. So. No one can see that. That was Brandy snaking her head around at the invisible person who was arguing with her. I think the other thing about like.

Destruction and stuff at protests, just speaking for the ones in Kansas City, the police tear gassed people. So I wonder where the violence is coming from. Where the violence was incited. Yeah. I'm also real curious about the people who, like, aren't super upset about people dying at the hands of police, but get just real upset about the property damage. Mm-hmm. Huh? How about that property damage? Yeah.

I don't like the property damage. I'm just never going to be pro-property damage. It's like, nobody's fucking pro-property damage, Karen. Karen. You ready for another hot meme? Oh, no. This image was a skeleton looking out a window. And the text read, waiting on Obama to attend a cop's funeral. Hmm.

At this point, I'd like to pause to debut my new hit single, which I began writing last night when Norm asked me how this episode was coming along. It goes a little something like this. Amber Geiger is a piece of shit and I hate reading about her. Would you like to hear something sad?

Yeah. That's the end of the song, but this script keeps going. So what are your thoughts on that social media presence? Well. Well. I don't find it that surprising. No, not at all. Yeah.

Not at all. And that's a problem when that is the person we're expecting to protect and serve. Yeah. Yeah, so to me, it just reveals like, okay, this is a racist white lady. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She would never.

Now, I want to be very clear. The people who post that stuff, they're never going to describe themselves as racist. No. And they would be super offended. If someone told them that, I guess, that they are racist. But guess what? that they are racist. But guess what?

If you get your panties in a bunch over someone kneeling during the national anthem about police brutality, you might be a little bit racist. It's a good thing you whispered that. Yeah, that's so... That's because I know they're feeling embarrassed, thing you whispered that. Yeah. That's so. That's because I know they're feeling embarrassed.

So I whispered it so they don't feel too ashamed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't give me that crap about. Oh, it's disrespecting the flag. No. Protest is patriotic.

You can want your country to do better. That is patriotic. Yeah. All right. Anyway, here we go. This is, you know, this case isn't bad enough. This is going to be a popular episode, Brandy. Can't wait to hear what that lady has to say about it.

Your number one fan. Woo! Your number one fan. In the lead up to the trial, Judge Tammy Kemp was like, hey, this trial is going to be very intense, a ton of media coverage. So I'm issuing a gag order. And the defense immediately protested. And they were like, that doesn't seem necessary. We're not even prepared for this. But then they reached into their suit pockets and they all pulled out ball gags and they put them on and they pretended they weren't excited to be wearing

them. But everyone could plainly see that they were very excited to be wearing. Like raging mega boners. Brandy, don't be gross. And boy, were they embarrassed when the judge explained that a gag order just means you have to shut up. There's nothing kinky about it. So everybody did a great job not talking to the media. But then the day before the trial started, the freaking D.A. did an interview with the media. The D.A.? Yeah, the district attorney. Thank you for explaining what the D.A. is, Kristen. I'm familiar. I'm sorry. Calm down. Yes, the district attorney. Thank you for explaining what the DA is, Kristen.

I'm familiar. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I told you. It's the district attorney. Brandy's because you're so dumb. How dare you? The worst thing anyone could call Brandy.

Remember a couple weeks ago when you... Oh, my God. Oh, my God, you came in hot. You must have already been feeling kind of stupid that day. You were just ready for someone to insult you. Brandy, you're very smart. Thank you. So, you know, the DA, or district attorney, as Brandy needs to hear, did an interview with the media the day before the trial. And so, of course, the defense was like, and then they took out the ball gags.

They were like, judge, they violated your gag order. We demand a mistrial. And the judge was like, I told you guys to stop wearing those ball gags and know you're not getting a mistrial. Interestingly, the defense had also tried to get the case moved out of Dallas County. They said the trial needed to be moved because of all the publicity. But some people were skeptical about the defense's reasons for wanting to move the trial because Dallas County is super diverse. And the surrounding areas where the defense was like, well, how about over here? Can we get like a nice white jury?

Yeah, we're super white and conservative. And everyone's got to stick up their butts about the NFL. Ultimately, the case stayed in Dallas County and was to hurt. Oh, my God. You know what I almost said? Was to hurt by a haverse jury. Did you hear about this? In opening statements, Assistant District Attorney Jason Hermes set the scene.

He talked about Botham sitting in his apartment in shorts and a t-shirt, watching TV and eating a bowl of vanilla ice cream, when all of a sudden sudden Amber Geiger came in uninvited. The light from the hallway and the noise from the door must have scared him to death. And as he tried to get up from the couch to find out what this intruder was doing trying to get into his home, she leveled off her gun and shot twice. The prosecutor said there was no opportunity for him to surrender. He talked about the way the bullet traveled through Botham's body. The fact that it traveled downward indicated that he was

not standing when he was shot. The prosecution's case also centered around the idea that Amber hadn't gone to the wrong apartment that day because she was tired. The reason she went to the wrong apartment was that she was distracted. She'd been having an affair with her married police partner, Martin Rivera. This is where this gets. Oh, and they were sexting, right? Yeah. This is. Okay.

I had forgotten about that. Yeah. It's weird. Okay. Here we go. So they'd been having an affair for at least two years, and that day they'd been sexting each other. Okay, I'm doing this thing where I'm like, do I tell you this now? No, I'm going to save it.

And before she walked into the wrong apartment and shot both of them, she and Martin had had a 16-minute phone conversation. And I believe it was in the parking garage when she did that. That's why she'd missed all the clear signals, like that she was at the wrong apartment, like, for example, that bright red floor mat in front of Botham's door. The prosecution also argued that even if Amber got to what she thought was her apartment and thought that the door was open because of an intruder, police protocol indicates that she should have called for backup. She shouldn't have gone inside. The station was two blocks away. They would have been there in no time. But the defense argued that on the night in question, Amber had finished up a 13-hour workday and she was exhausted.

The only thing on her mind was, I'm going home. Was it? Because she just spent 16 minutes on the phone with the man she was having an affair with. Okay. So in the episode of this show, they share a theory that maybe he canceled on her that night because I guess they'd been planning to meet up and she was like annoyed and out of it and that's I don't know I mean the guy says he doesn't remember what they talked about but it was probably police work and I'm like yeah yeah I'm sure I'm sure I'm gonna send you a picture of my tits and you tell me about police work.

Give me a break. Can you imagine being this guy's wife? No. Yeah. No. You cheated on me with who? Yeah. Anyway.

The defense also pointed out that the hallways and parking garage levels in the apartment complex all looked the same. It was very common for people to mistakenly put their keys in the wrong doors. No. Very common. It was very common. How often is it happening? He said 48 times. I was kind of like, well, 48 times in hell.

How long? And how do you really know that? How do you know that? Come on. Okay. I do have to say something. Have you done this before? I think I did something weirder.

Okay. What did you do? This was in high school. This is super weird. I was in the parking lot, had my keys out. I, um, you know, I drove a green Toyota Camry. You don't have to tell me.

I know what you drove. Alright, alright. Well, other people are listening, Brayden. We've got 12 other people listening. No, it is you and me having a conversation. I walked up to a green Camry, opened the door. It was unlocked.

I sat in it. And I was sitting in someone else's car. And I looked around and it was really clean. That's when I knew it wasn't my car. And so I got out. I think that happens sometimes yeah i mean the the key is like i didn't take out a gun and shoot anybody no um and again like anyway i'm just saying like i i believe it can happen i believe it can happen. I believe it can happen.

I don't think it happens often. It's happened 48 times in 12 minutes. In 12 minutes, Brandi. It's happened 48 times since the beginning of time. 48 times since the building was built. 48 times this year. I would agree. 48 times this year.

That sounds pretty often. I need a measure of scale. Okay. To be fair to this defense attorney who I accused of burning in hell with Hitler, he might have said he'd give more context, but the article I read, it didn't mention the context. And I was like, well, I'm not including that 48 times. That doesn't mean anything to me. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, very common. No, I disagree. They also downplayed the role that her relationship with her police partner might have played

in this. Yes, they'd had an affair, but that affair was winding down at the time of the shooting. They were sexting that day. What do you mean you're winding? It's going to be like, okay, this is the fourth to last time. You're going to get 12 more nudes and then that's it. That's going to be. OK, this is the fourth to last time. You're going to get 12 more nudes. And that's it. That's it.

It's like a weaning off situation. Absolutely. And I'm going to wean off. OK. You know what? I was like, is she going to? Is she going to? And then I thought, no.

Wow. All right. And then boom. Talk about the Grace Kelly of podcasting. I was going to leave a ween joke just out there. Dangling. A witness for the prosecution talked about the direction of the bullet. I've already mentioned this several times about how there was basically two options.

He was either crouched down or getting up from a seated position. options. He was either crouched down or getting up from a seated position. The prosecution also brought forth three neighbors who lived near Botham, and they all said they did not hear Amber tell Botham Jean to show his hands. Okay. Strange side note. One of the prosecution's key witnesses, a guy named Joshua Brown, who lived across the hall from Botham, was actually killed a few days after the trial. That's a whole other story. It's long and a little complicated, it seems. So I'm just going to leave that there. You know, I don't want people to think, oh, we're not mentioning it.

But, I mean, I guess I'm not really going into details at all because that's all you get. Goodbye. Want to know more? Google it yourself. That's right. Want to know more? Google it yourself. That's right. Perhaps the most memorable part of this trial, at least to me, came when Amber took the stand in her own defense. Did you watch any of this? Yes, I did.

Did you? I don't understand why they would do that. Why? Why? Because if I recall, she didn't, I don't know, come off particularly likable or remorseful or. Oh, you don't think so? That's the reaction I remember having okay yes okay um i'm just now realizing i forgot to tell you like one of your favorite things that happens in trials sometimes okay you love a makeover oh yeah she got a little makeover before the trial so you know before she

always you know um lady police they've always got their hair in a very tight ponytail, slicked back, and usually in dark clothes. And in early stuff, that's how she presented herself. She was in a dark suit, hair in a tight ponytail. At trial, she was in lighter, more feminine clothes. Her hair was loose at her shoulders. I know how you love that shit right there. Like a trial makeover. So there you go. That's what you get.

Thank you. So on the stand, she was super emotional. At times, she cried so hard that the jury couldn't understand her. Wow. I'm going to say an ugly cry. We all know what that means. That's the. Yeah.

That was very. And that's saying something because I look so hot now that you gave me my COVID makeup. At one point, a few of the jury members cried along with her. Wow. Yeah. So they had a very different reaction to her that I did. Well, and I'm wondering if parts of this get to you and then parts of it make you go, I don't think so, because she was on the stand for a long time.

She admitted through tears that she'd killed an innocent man. She said, I wish he was the one with the gun who killed me. I never wanted to take an innocent person's life, and I'm so sorry. She walked the jury through what happened. She said she'd gotten to the parking garage, had a phone conversation with her partner, who she was having an affair with, and she didn't realize that she was on the wrong level. She didn't realize that she was one floor above where she should have been. I think that's my big problem because I just don't buy.

I mean, I guess. Really? I mean, I do. I do. I think that she very much walked into the wrong apartment. I do get that. Like, I can't wrap my head around, like, how you get that far. Like, on the wrong parking garage, in the wrong door, down the wrong hall.

Yeah, I mean, it's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah. I don't have any misconception that that, like, I don't believe that that's made up. I think that's really what happened. Yeah. I really do.

It's what happens after she gets in the apartment that I don't believe. Mm-hmm. But, gosh, you had to be super fucking distracted like to get that far. You are like on the same page as Botham's family. Literally, Alyssa, I don't think I included this quote, but she basically said, I think what she said was she believes the story up until she gets to that door. Yeah. And everything beyond that of coming in and saying, show me your hands and both of them like doesn't show his hands.

She just says, you know, I don't believe any of that. But yeah, I believe that she went to the wrong apartment. See, this is the kind of thing, again, like I'm the type of person who occasionally gets into the wrong behavior. Yes. You know what I should not be? person who occasionally gets into the wrong vehicle. Yes. You know what I should not be? Someone with a gun attached to my head. Yeah. Right?

Right, yeah. Maybe this is not the career for you. Yeah. Maybe you should kick back. Do a podcast. Oh, God. What if Amber Geiger had just gone another way? What if it was like that Gwyneth Paltrow movie, you know, Sliding Doors?

Yeah. And instead she started a right-wing podcast for... I bet it'd be very popular. Oh, God, it probably would be. Yes. There are podcasts out there for... Everyone. Everyone.

Ben Shapiro is a very popular Oh my god. Oh my god. Sure does. Sure does. Okay, so anyway, her story, you know, she put her key in the keyhole, but noticed

that the door was already a little open. Ajar. Ajar. As the French might say. She heard someone moving inside, and she pulled out her gun and pushed open the door and yelled at the person to show his hands. She said she was scared.

She saw a dark silhouette, and he approached her in a fast-paced walk, shouting, hey, hey, hey. She told the jury that she was scared he was going to kill me. Yeah, I think this is where she lost me, because I just don't believe any of this. No! That's stupid! Yeah. That's so ridiculous.

Yeah. She expressed a lot of pain and regret, but under cross-examination, the prosecution gave her a good roasting. And I think this is what maybe you're remembering. They were like, you told him to show you his hands? Really? Why didn't any of the neighbors hear that? And she said, I can't say why. And the prosecutor said, because you didn't say it.

why. And the prosecutor said, because you didn't say it. The prosecution also asked her about her behavior after the shooting. They accused her of being more concerned with her well-being than with his. Yeah. They pointed out that she could have tried to stop the bleeding, but she did nothing. They also pointed out footage of her sitting calmly looking at her phone while Botham's body was rolled away in front of her on a stretcher. They pointed out texts she sent two days after the shooting. She texted her police partner sexually explicit stuff and talked about getting drunk. After closing arguments, the jury needed to decide whether Amber was guilty. You said that was after the shooting? Yeah, two days after.

Yikes. Yeah, that makes me really not like her. You liked her great before this. No, I didn't, but I'm guessing that's probably one of the things that I was like, mm-mm, mm-mm. Yeah, I mean, imagine. Imagine that you had accidentally taken someone's life. That would be horrible. It was a horrible mistake.

Lord only knows how long it would take to recover from that. Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine. Yeah. And you would have to know that your own internalized racism played a role in that and that would make you feel even worse.

Unless, on the other hand, hear me out, you wanted to get banged and get drunk. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's really strange. Yeah. So after closing arguments, the jury needed to decide whether Amber was guilty of murder, but they still had the option to find her guilty of the lesser charge of manslaughter.

And in what I personally think was like an insane move, Judge Tammy Kemp was like, hey, jury, you can feel free to consider Castle Doctrine as a possible defense. No! No! as a possible defense. No!

Oh! Put the brakes on. Yeah. What? So, all right, we talked about castle doctrine before. That's basically stand your ground, and it means that you can use deadly force if someone enters or attempts to enter your home. She entered someone else's home! That's

exactly, I mean, I I don't have the words. I thought it was my apartment, I thought it was my apartment, I thought it was my apartment, I thought it was my apartment. So because she thought she was in her own apartment, you can consider castle doctrine? Wouldn't that mean that potentially

anyone in an apartment condo, anyone in an apartment anyone in a condo anyone in the precedent that that right oh my house is beige

and the house next door is beige and I just I thought I was four doors down turns out I was three doors down not the shitty band

but thought it was my castle turns out someone else's castle who gives a shit because castle doctrine no also fun fact Thought it was my castle. Turns out someone else's castle who gives a shit because Castle Doctrine. No. Also, fun fact, this judge is a black woman.

I don't know. I feel like that needs to be mentioned. Yeah. That sounded like some white bullshit to me. So the prosecution, of course, objected. They were like, this is absurd. That doesn't apply. Amber wasn't in her own home.

But that was the judge's instructions. So the jury went into deliberation and the prosecution was like, well, we're boned. But an hour later, when the jury came out of deliberation, they announced that they'd found Amber Geiger guilty of murder. Yeah, I can't get excited. Don't worry, the party will be real short here. So this was a huge moment for civil rights activists and for Botham Jean's family. They praised God. They couldn't believe it.

People had said it would be impossible to get justice against a white police officer. But it seemed like they'd gotten it. Did they? Then came the punishment. Yeah. The prosecution asked for no less than 28 years. That would have been Botham's age if he'd been alive. They also showed the jury some of the memes from Amber's Pinterest page, and they shared some of her texts. They showed that in March of 2018, her work partner texted her, damn, I was at this area with five different black officers, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, not racist, but damn.

And she responded, not racist, but just have a different way of working. And it shows. What? What? What? Okay, if you say a not racist, but. Yeah, you're racist. Two days before the shooting, she texted someone who'd just gotten a German Shepherd.

And the person said about the German Shepherd, she may be racist. And Amber responded, it's okay dot dot dot, I'm the same. And later added, I hate everything and everyone but y'all. Which I think she added that later because the person got that text back and was like nooooooo

Oh my gosh. Botham's sister, Alyssa, testified about the effect her brother's murder had on the family. She said that her mother cries constantly, that Bertram. So, OK, I don't know if maybe her father is different than Botham's father because she referred to him as Bertram, which feels a little formal for your own dad, but I don't know. So she said, he's a shell. It's like the light behind his eyes is off. And she said that her 18-year-old brother, Brant, Botham's little brother, who had always been quiet, was a shell too.

And she told them, I'm worried about Brant. Amber's mother, Karen Geiger, testified that when Amber was six, her boyfriend had molested her. And he'd actually been arrested for it. She also testified that Amber had been devastated by the shooting. She didn't go there intending to kill him. What? I believe that she didn't go there intending to kill him. Yeah, absolutely.

Sexting two days after the killing makes me think she's not that devastated by it. And when you aim your gun at someone and you pull the trigger, well, you intend to kill them there. Yeah. You know the probable outcome of that and she'd been a police officer for five years so she had plenty of training and she ignored all of that

unless the training is in brutality toward black men. The defense also asked the jury to consider all the good that Amber had done. Ultimately, the jury gave her 10 years. She'd be up for parole in five. To Botham's

family and to anyone who gives a shit about justice, this was a slap in the face. How had they gotten a guilty verdict but with so little time attached to it? People outside the courtroom began to protest. They shouted, no justice, no peace. At this point, Botham's family was invited to give victim impact statements. 18-year-old Brandt was the only one who took them up on the offer. Do you remember this part?

Mm-mm. Okay. So he goes up there, and the walls were lined with armed police officers, which had to feel really fucking weird. No one knew what to expect from his statement. Brant had really struggled with his brother's murder. There had been a time when he said he hated Amber, he wanted her to die. But when he got up on the stand, Brant forgave his brother's killer. He looked right at her and said,

If you truly are sorry, I know I can speak for myself. I forgive you. And I know if you go to God and ask him, he will forgive you. He said he wasn't speaking for his whole family and added, Oh my gosh. Then he asked permission to hug her, and they hugged for almost a full minute. Oh, my gosh. So this was super controversial. A lot of white people loved, loved, loved this. Okay, and this is just anecdotal bullshit, but I remember this story of him forgiving her went all over the place. And I noticed just personally on the Facebook that people who had never posted about police brutality loved this story.

Share it, everyone. Yep. Gave us all the warm fuzzies and maybe absolved us of some guilt. And for that exact same reason, a lot of black people were like, yikes, don't walk away from this with the wrong message. It's not all good. A police officer got 10 years for murdering an innocent man in his own apartment. Yeah. Amongst all this controversy, Bernice King, who's the youngest daughter of Martin Luther King and Coretta Scott King, tweeted,

King, who's the youngest daughter of Martin Luther King and Coretta Scott King, tweeted, God bless Botham Jean's brother, but don't confuse his forgiveness with absolving this nation for its gross, bitter discrimination against black people in a myriad of its systems and policies. Racism and white supremacist ideology can't be hugged out. I really feel for Brant because like he had a lot of people. I think he probably had a lot of people who loved him for the wrong reasons there and a lot of people who were really angry at him. Yeah. And he was just an 18-year-old kid who's dealing with his brother being murdered.

Allison spoke out in defense of her youngest son. kid who's dealing with his brother being murdered. Allison spoke out in defense of her youngest son. She said she was proud of him and that his load was lighter now. She said forgiveness is for the forgiver and it doesn't matter what the forgiven does with it. Okay, so we talked about this in a bonus episode

a long time ago and this has all been a plug for our Patreon. No, but do you remember we talked about like oh shit i didn't remember the quote then and i'm not going to remember it now but it's something to the effect of like holding on to anger or resentment towards someone is like drinking poison and expecting them to die from it and that's what i think about with this. Is like he forgave her not because she did something forgivable, but because he decided I'm not going to carry this any longer. Yeah. And I think there's also probably something about when you're dealing with loss that's so fresh like that, so shocking like that, the idea of somebody else losing something doesn't make that loss any better. Yeah.

And that feels painful. Yeah. And so I think that this could very much be a grief response. That's really interesting. I hadn't thought of it like that. Yeah, that's just my personal take on it. It feels to me more like a grief response. It very well could be.

Yeah. Alyssa was just like, yeah, I'm not there yet. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which I don't blame her. Yeah. So, yeah, Amber Geiger, who knows what she did with that forgiveness. But we do know that she thinks she didn't get a fair deal because she appealed.

You're fucking kidding me. No, I'm not. She requested a new trial on the grounds that there was insufficient evidence to convict her of murder. She walked into someone else's apartment and shot him. Not enough evidence. Holy shit. And those appeals are going on right now. Like, it's literally

happening now. The fucking balls. You got 10 years. Mm-hmm. You're not sorry. No. You're 10 years. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're not sorry. No.

You're not sorry. No. If you were sorry. You'd do your time. You'd do your, and you'd be like, I cannot believe I only got 10 years. And she probably wouldn't even do 10 years. No. Holy shit.

Yeah. Yeah, she's so sorry. Boo-hoo-hoo. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah, she's so sorry. Boo hoo hoo. So sorry. Oh, that 10 years is too much. I shouldn't be going away for that long. Give me a fucking break. The most amazing thing that could happen with that is they could decide that

she needs to be retried and that she gets fucking life in prison. That would be amazing. That's true justice. People who love justice would be all about it. So a few months ago, the Dallas City Council voted to rename part of the street that passes Botham Jean's former apartment and the Dallas police headquarters as Botham Jean Boulevard. Wow. and the Dallas police headquarters as Botham Jean Boulevard.

Wow. Botham Jean was buried in St. Lucia. And before she left Dallas, his mom had this to say. There is much more to be done by the city of Dallas. The corruption that we saw during this process must stop. And it must stop for you. Because after now, I leave Dallas. But you live in dallas and that's the story of the murder of botham sean that was fucking terrible it was yeah

i have just been thinking of that case so much now that the Derek what's his butt mmhmm yeah Chauvin Chauvin I'm probably gonna have to god damn it

I'm gonna have to learn how to pronounce his fucking last name and then I'm gonna have to do that case yeah I'll cover that shit back um

but you know George Floyd did some drugs so yeah so yeah mmhmm so yeah

there's a part that of her story that i can follow and i can relate to and you know absolutely okay and then it's what happens inside the apartment and it's her actions afterward that i'm it's like she didn't value his life no and someone who doesn't value everybody's lives as much as they value their own has no business being in charge of protecting other people's lives. Very well said. Very well said. Yeah.

Someone like that should not be a police officer. Yeah. Full stop. Yeah. Yeah. She just. It just struck me as like, so there's an existing level of racism going on. I think she was probably trigger happy, too. You put that together with, you know, I don't really know that the sexting really had that big an impact to me. I almost more buy the idea that, like, yeah, she was really tired.

She was out of it. And the prosecution had said, oh, but she wasn't doing, you know, really tough work that day. She was doing mostly administrative stuff. I still think if you're at your work for 13 hours, that can make you a little loopy. But no, I I think she's full of shit about everything

that happened after she opened that door. Completely full of shit about everything that happened after she opened that door yeah completely full of shit yep and it's awful that in that 911 call she's like i'm fucked i'm fucked i'm going to lose my job i'm going to lose my job and then like hold on buddy just keep on keeping on over there like oh god you know what i what hadn't occurred to me until just now what if what if he was conscious for that yeah that's like the last thing he heard i'm gonna lose my job oh my god yeah Oh, my God. Yeah. Sorry, everybody. Fuck.

Had to bum you all out. We were all having too much fun. Okay. Let's talk about a fire. Is this terrible? Is this just a terrible episode of terrible things? Okay, great. Jeez.

Shout out to Marie Markey, who sent us this case suggestion on Instagram. And her sister, Beth Markey, would like a shout out as well. But that's simply not how it works, Beth. If you want a shout out, send in your own case recommendation. So consider this not a shout out, Beth, okay? Beth who? Marky Beth Marky, okay. No shout outs for her.

And shout out to the podcast, Crime Lines. Do you know this podcast? No, I don't. It's a Kansas City podcast. What? Yes. I thought we were the only one. I know. Yeah. So it's a Kansas City podcast. What? Yes. I thought we were the only one. I know. Yeah.

So it's a Kansas City true crime podcast. Yeah. They had an episode on this case. It was very good. No, it sucked. We're the best. It's like a straight story. There's no banter.

It's one. It's this wonderful woman, Charlie, who just tells the story in a very straightforward manner. Terrible podcast. We're the only podcast for you. No, that sounds wonderful. Yes. But her coverage of this case really helped fill in like some of the details about the court stuff. Filled in your holes, did it?

Filled in all of my holes. Wow. Much like your drum surgery did. jury did. Luz Cuevas and Pedro Vera were overjoyed. It was December 5th, 1997, and they had just welcomed a beautiful baby girl into the world. She was healthy and perfect and had the cutest little dimple in her cheek that showed when she was sleeping. They named her Delimar. A dimple that showed when she was sleeping. That is really cute. I know, it's super cute.

Luz had two sons from a previous relationship, but this was her first daughter and her first child with Pedro. There are some varying accounts of how and why, but for some reason, Pedro Vera was not listed as the father on Delimar's birth certificate. Some sources say that this is because he questioned the paternity. But other sources say, and I think this is the more likely explanation, that there was a language barrier and Pedro simply didn't understand what was being asked of him when it was time to sign the birth certificate. Yeah, yeah. All right. To me, this is the more likely explanation because Delimar was given Pedro's last name.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, he's there. He's there. Yeah. Come on. Yes. The couple took their little bundle of joy home to their two-story row house in the Feltonville neighborhood of North Philadelphia.

And they started settling into life with a new baby. The early days of Delimar's life were filled with visitors. Friends and family came from near and far to see Luz and Pedro's beautiful baby girl. Is it L-U-Z? Uh-huh. Luz. They pronounced it... Did they?

Uh-huh. Luz? Luz, They pronounced it. Did they? Uh-huh. Luz? Luz, yeah. Okay. Yeah. It was a bit chaotic, but Luz and Pedro wouldn't have it any other way. They loved being surrounded by their loved ones and sharing their new baby with them. It was during one of these chaotic days, though, that tragedy struck.

It was December 15th, 1997. Delimar was 10 days old. The day had been kind of hectic. There had been a lot of visitors. Pedro had been in and out all day. And so had his mother, who may or may not have been living with the family at this point. Again, sources have it kind of different ways. But at the very least, she was a constant figure in the home.

Right, right. She helped with the baby and with Luz's boys, who were like four and five by this point. Anyway, it was evening time now, and Luz sat in the living room having checked on baby Delimar. She was napping. After she checked on the baby though, she was like a little bit annoyed because she had placed Delimar on the bed for her nap and someone had moved her into her crib. Surely it was one of the many visitors just trying to be helpful and thinking about the safety of the baby. But to Luz, it probably felt a bit like someone thought they knew better

how to care for her daughter than she did. Okay. Luz hadn't been sitting long when she heard a loud pop from upstairs, like a bang or a small explosion. Then she smelled smoke, and it was clear very quickly that the second story of their old row house was on fire. The scene became very chaotic pretty quickly. Someone got the boys out of the house. Someone called 911. But Luz was frantic. She needed to get to Delimar. She ran upstairs towards the fire. The smoke was thick. She couldn't see. Her eyes burned. She made it into the baby's room. She felt around, but she

couldn't find Delimar. The flames were intense. The fire was growing. Luz's face and neck burned from the heat. She screamed out for her baby. Oh, God. Someone pulled Luz out of the room. They ran out of the burning house. By this time, neighbors had come to try and help. Armed with garden hoses and small household fire extinguishers, they climbed on the roof of the porch to get to Delimar's bedroom.

They opened the window and sprayed the hoses and extinguishers in, trying to fight the flames enough so that someone could get in and get Delimar. But it wasn't working. and get Delimar. But it wasn't working. Soon, emergency crews arrived and professionals went to work fighting the fire. Luz screamed for her baby. Firefighters entered the room and searched for the infant. Meanwhile, Luz was loaded into an ambulance and restrained. She had suffered burns to her face and neck, and she kept trying to re-enter the house to get to Delimar. Luz watched helplessly from the back of the ambulance. She was inconsolable. They rushed her to Temple University Hospital, the same hospital she'd given birth in just 10 days earlier. They treated her for burns and for intense emotional distress.

And there they delivered the devastating news. Delimar had not survived the fire. news. Delimar had not survived the fire. There was a lot of confusion in the days that followed and in the investigation into the fire. In the chaos of the scene that night and in an attempt to rescue the infant from the burning home, the firefighters had apparently like brought armloads of stuff from the burning home out into the yard and sifted through it looking for the baby. Eventually, they located a bundle of charred stuff that they believed to be the remains of Delimar. But the medical examiner had looked at it. Did someone take a baby and set the room on fire?

I don't know. Did they? Oh, my God. So they had this stuff that they sent to the medical examiner and they were like, this is the baby's remains. And the medical examiner was like, those are not human remains. It turned out to be just some debris from the room that had like fused together during the fire. Oh, my gosh. that had like fused together during the fire.

Oh my gosh. So the fire investigator looked at the scene and determined that the fire had been the result of a homemade extension cord that was being used to power a space heater in the baby's room. So independently, a space heater, fire hazard. A homemade extension cord, fire hazard. Together, major fire hazard.

The fire investigator also determined that due to the size of the newborn and the fact that newborn babies are essentially cartilage, there's not actual bone. They determined that Delimar's small body had been completely incinerated by the fire. This news was devastating. Well, yeah. So devastating that many believed it sent Luz into a full mental breakdown. Luz refused to believe that her baby died. She told anyone and everyone who would listen that delimar was still alive she had to be she said she had searched the room that night in the fire and she wasn't there

initially people just kind of smiled and nodded at lose and you know she had been through so much and now she was clearly in denial about what had happened that night this story is nuts then the years passed and she kept telling that same story and people started to look at her like she'd lost her damn mind. Yeah. She kind of became the woman who couldn't get over the loss of her child. Or couldn't accept the loss. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She just would continually say, you know, where's my baby?

My baby was not in the room that night. I know she's alive. I know she didn't die. Yeah. Who took her baby? She wanted to hire a private investigator to look into it. She just did not believe, would not

accept that Delamar died in that fire. Luz was adamant. She knew in her heart, in her soul, that Delamar was alive. She could feel it. It didn't help that the medical examiner had refused to issue a death certificate.

They said that without physical remains, Luz and Pedro would have to go to court to get Delamar declared legally dead. But, of course, Luz wasn't going to do that. No, no, she didn't believe that it happened. No, yeah. The whole situation put a serious strain on Luz and Pedro's relationship. They had another baby, this time a boy, but Luz just couldn't move forward with her life. She was so focused on Delimar. Eventually, the couple split up. By January of 2003, it seemed that maybe Luz was doing a little better

her sister had been encouraging her to get out of the house more get around people more it could only help her but at this point she was pretty reluctant to be around people because you know people thought she was crazy and she of course thought she wasn't and yeah

and she just felt like you know anytime she was like in a room with a bunch of people, they looked at her like the woman who had lost her mind. And yeah. God, this poor woman. Oh, my God. So her sister's like encouraging her to do more stuff like go to family events and stuff like that. And so one afternoon she went to the birthday party of a family member. It was like her niece's daughter's third birthday or something like that.

So Luz is at this party with some friends, some family, some people she doesn't know, all kinds of people are there when all of a sudden a young girl walked into the room oh my god luce's mouth dropped open she could feel the color drain from her face she began shaking the little girl looked exactly like her she looked just just like her sons. Oh my god, Brandy. And she looked to be about six years old. Shut up. That is the exact age Delimar would be. And then the little girl smiled. And there it was, the cutest little dimple in her cheek. The same one that had shown when baby Delimar would sleep. Luz couldn't believe what she was seeing.

Oh, my God. I'm freaking out over here. Oh, my God. Okay, keep. Yeah. It was her daughter. Yes. She knew it.

She had known it all along. Delimar was still alive, and here she was looking right at her. Can you fucking imagine? No. Can you fucking imagine? No, no. Can you fucking imagine? Nope, nope, nope, nope. Can't imagine it. But what do you do?

Because obviously the crazy person who stole your baby is and your kid doesn't. Oh, my God, this is terrible. Yeah. So Luz made her way over to the girl and learned that her name was Aaliyah Hernandez. And she was like, nope, none. And then an idea popped into her head. She'd seen TV shows where the police had been able to do DNA testing with hair. Let me do your hair.

So she told Aaliyah that there was a piece of bubble gum stuck in her hair. And then she pretended to get it out for her. And she snipped a little clump of hair and she tucked it away in a napkin and put it inside a Ziploc bag and put it into her pocket. Oh my God. There are some varying accounts from people who were at that party that day about what happened next. Some people say after that, Luz ran from the party crying, while others remember a big confrontation between Luz and Aaliyah's mother, Carolyn Correa. Luz knew Carolyn Correa. Luz knew Carolyn Correa. She had been married to Pedro's cousin.

Mm-hmm. And she had been at the house the day of the fire. This story is wild. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She had come to get some work done on her car. Pedro was like a sometimes

mechanic. Sure, yeah. And so she'd come over that day, seen the baby, had Pedro fix a headlight on her car or something, and then she she left. But oh, no.

She forgot her purse. She left it at their house. So she had to come back and get her purse. And it was like right around the time that she came back to get her purse that the fire happened. And she was actually the one who drove to go get Pedro, who was at a friend's house when the fire broke out. She was? So she was at the house when the fire broke out. She was the one who got in the car and went and picked up Pedro to bring him back to the house. And be like, oh my gosh, your house is on fire.

Your baby's inside. So she got the baby out, took the baby home, then went to go get Pedro. Went back to the house to get her purse. I see. Okay. And then, oh, no, there's a fire. I better go get Pedro. Oh, my God.

So Luz had thought for years that Carolyn had to be somehow involved in Delimar's disappearance. She never believed that Delimar was dead. Right. Never. Right. She thought somebody kidnapped the baby. The fire was a cover-up. She had this theory for years, and no one would

fucking listen to her. Oh my god. It just sounded like the ramblings of a woman who could not accept that her baby had died. That would be the worst type of condescension. Because it's not even... It's not even like the douchey aggressive

kind it's yeah it's like people are just feeling so sorry for you oh honey yeah okay okay have you talked to a counselor so uh like a few years after this happened like pedra's like you really got to get some help like this is not healthy and so she went to a counselor for a while and she brought up carolyn to that therapist and was like i think she's involved i think she's involved i she she was there that night and then she left and she came back and then the fire happened and the therapist was like okay sure thing oh my god oh this is wild uh-huh so some people say that luce confronted carolyn right there and then at the party right and that there was this big scene but there's no way to know if that's true because there's just varying accounts and whatever. What we know for sure is that it would be a whole year before any real investigation was launched into the true identity of Aaliyah Hernandez.

Some sources speculate on this and they think it's weird that Luz would wait this long. But here's what I think. Okay. She's been being told for six years that she's crazy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that there's no way that this happened and that she just needs to get a grip on reality and whatever. There has to be a part of her that is battling with that now.

Absolutely. I've completely snapped. I've lost my fucking mind. And what do I have to tell people? Yeah. I saw a little girl who looks like my dead daughter. No one's going to believe that. Maybe I am crazy.

Yeah. And then on Crimelines, they point out another point of view of this, which I think is very important. This area of Philadelphia that they lived in was like a very impoverished area. And it is likely that – so Luz had a language barrier. She spoke Spanish predominantly. Spoke very little English. She likely – What do you do with. She likely didn't.

What do you do with that? She didn't even know, like, what the next step was. She's got a clump of hair. What the fuck do I do with it? Yeah, honestly, I would kind of pay a lot for, like, what do you. Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

So she's battling with a lot of things at this point, I think. Like, nobody's going to believe me. And, like, what even do I do? Right. A lot of things at this point, I think. Like, nobody's going to believe me. And, like, what even do I do? Right.

There's some reports that maybe she looked into independent DNA testing but found out it was, like, $1,500. Yeah, that was a no-go. There was no way that was happening. Yeah. And she approached Pedro again about getting a private detective. And he was like, I'm not going to pay for that and then she couldn't afford it and i don't i don't know that pedro could afford it either right like yeah it just was not gonna happen so like a year goes by and she's like my daughter's alive yeah i've known this whole time So she decides that her best plan of action is to go talk to her state representative.

Oh, my God. Okay. So she goes to her state representative, this guy, Angel Cruz, and he's like – she's like, okay, here's my story. Like, okay, here's my story. And she tells him the whole thing about the fire and how she never believed that her baby died and how she knows that she has now seen her baby. And here, I've got her hair. And please, please help me. Please help me prove that this is my daughter.

She spoke to him for an hour and a half. Uh-huh. And he looked at her and he was like, I don't know, man. Yeah. Oh, God. And he served like this area that was heavily Hispanic and heavily like impoverished and, you know. And something about the story that she told him,

he was like, like pulled on him. He was like, I don't know. I kind of believe it. Yeah. And so he was like, OK, let me let me see what I can do. He was like, I don't know. I believe the whole thing.

But maybe there's like some bit of it that I can do something with. Yeah. And so he made a call to like a police detective and was like, hey, can you help me out by ordering a DNA test here? And they're like, well, let's pump the brakes a little bit. Let's do like just a general investigation into this first and see if this is even warranted. You would feel really weird even calling. You're right. It'd be like, OK, so have I got a story for you?

Yeah. Stop me if you've heard this before. Oh, my you. Yeah. Stop me if you've heard this before. Oh, my God. Yeah. And so they look into it and they specifically look into Carolyn Correa. And they're like, interesting. She had a previous. Fraud conviction?

Arson conviction. Oh. And a fraud charge. Oh. Two fraud charges, in fact. Uh-huh. So her arson and her initial arson and fraud charge stemmed from this time when she was working at like this medical clinic

and she was in charge of something in the billing department and so she was stealing checks from the company because she had access to them. Oh, God. stealing checks from the company because she had access to them. Oh, God. So she gets word that they're interviewing for her position. Uh-huh.

And she's like, fuck, I'm going to get fired. Uh-huh. But it turns out. Let me just light this whole place on fire. It turns out they had no idea about the embezzlement scheme at that part. She was really just going to get fired because she was terrible at showing up to work on time. Well, she didn't have to because she had an independent source of income. And so she figures out that they're going to fire her. And then the new person is going to come in and uncover this embezzlement scheme that she's been running.

And so she's like, well, I guess I better burn the fucking place down. And so she sets a fire while she and her coworkers are there. What? Yes. Yes. So she's arrested and charged with aggravated arson. And then they uncover the embezzlement scheme. And so they charge her with that too okay somehow and i don't

fucking know how somehow she gets this lowered to like third degree arson and she gets five years of probation that's it yeah and community service oh well yeah and so when they're doing this initial investigation, then they uncover that she also had like a welfare fraud case against her. She had been receiving welfare benefits and then she had gotten a job and forgotten to claim that new income. And so she had been just – Oops. Yeah, like double dipping. Yeah. And so she had gotten a little slap on the wrist for that too.

So they're like, okay. This is believable. This looks like maybe we should look into this. This is her M.O. It is what they say. And so I won't say the full Latin term but I could. What do you mean? Modus operandi?

That's right. Ajar. I left that door ajar for you and you walked right through it, my friend. People come to us for their culture. That's right. I've got a hair between my boobs. I didn't see you just reach and just fold down your shirt there. You don't have this problem.

I have this problem frequently. Where you get just hair right in your boobs? A hair will get caught betwixt my titties. Betwixt my titties! And it tickles. Tickle in your titties, huh? And I'm sorry if I'm in front of you. I don't care.

I'll pull it out. Yeah. Just whip that hairy titty out. You would not do it in front of me. I would do it in front of you. If I had a hair in there, I'd get in there. You're a locker room stall changer. I am a locker room stall changer.

I'm an out in the open of the locker room changer. We're two totally different people. I would never take my shirt off in front of you, but if I had something down my shirt, I'd reach. I'd take mine off of you. I know. Don't you. Don't do this. You wouldn't even think twice about it.

You'd probably come downstairs with your fucking titty robe on. I would. I know. You know what hurts my feelings? Is that you don't seem the least bit excited about it. You seem bored by these old things. I know you would. I know you'd get naked in front of me.

That's right. So the police are like, all right, there seems like there might be something to this. I am so sorry. You still have a hairy titty? I didn't get it. How about now? Did you get it now? Jesus.

I'm sorry. She's doing like a juggling act now with her boobs. I'm not. I think I'm okay. I'm sorry. This is a really good story. I want to hear the end of it. But everybody knows.

Well, you don't know how it feels when you get a tit hair. I've never had a tit hair. You've never. In all your years of hairstyling. Maybe that's it. I don't even notice the tit hairs. Because you've gotten so many. I'm so used to having hair all over me. That's got to be it. I don't even notice the tit hairs. Because you've gotten so many. I'm used to having hair all over me.

That's got to be it. It has to be. Yeah. I'm desensitized. To the ticklings. Yeah. Of a prickling hair. Yeah.

Yep. Okay. We've uncovered it here today, folks. Very good. Let's end the podcast here. Nobody wants to know how this case ends, right? I'm so intrigued. I can't believe.

This is one where I'm like, how have we not all heard this story? This is wild. I know. Continue. Continue. So they're like, okay, let's tread lightly here because, like, let's not disrupt a fucking family over nothing. And so. Well, and also this woman seems like a complete nut job.

What if she, like, does something to the kid? Well, yeah. So at first they're like, hey, Carolyn, we're just doing a little... looking into a little something. Could you send us a picture

of your daughter, Aaliyah? They just want to see if there's really the visual resemblance. This is them treading lightly? Apparently. That's not treading lightly. They want to see if the visual resemblance. This is them treading lightly? Apparently. That's not treading lightly. They want to see if the visual

resemblance is as strong as Luz says it is. Couldn't they have just, like, driven by? Yes! Yeah, driven by peeping? Yeah, something. That's ridiculous. Yeah. Oh, that won't tip her off? This kid you stole? Okay.

Yeah, so, I mean, she may have already been tipped off if the scene really happened at the birthday party. Yeah, okay. So she sends them a picture. It's not of Aaliyah. Of course it's not. It's of some other fucking kid. Yeah. And so then they confirm that that's not Aaliyah.

And they're like, okay, well, that's kind of telling that you sent us a picture of another child. Yeah. It's time for a DNA test. Wait, maybe they had her send the picture just to see if she would lie. Maybe. Okay, now that I can get behind. Maybe they did. Maybe they did.

If that wasn't the plan, then I'm not on board. So now it's time for a DNA test. Okay. And so at this point, Carolyn's like knows exactly what's going on. She knows that Luz has made this claim that Aaliyah is her daughter. And she's like, nah, she's not her fucking daughter. She's my fucking daughter. And so she goes off and she has her own independent DNA test done.

What is that? When she like gets on the computer at the library and writes up, this is my child, 100%. At the same time, they do the official DNA test, like at a neutral location. Luz comes in and gets hers taken. Aaliyah is brought in by Carolyn and she gets her DNA taken and then Carolyn gets her, you know, DNA swabbed.

Right before Aaliyah's swab was done, Carolyn sprayed something in her mouth and told her not to swallow it. Ew. She sprayed her own spit. I'm guessing, right? That is disgusting. They don't know what she sprayed, but she attempted to throw off the results of the DNA test. Oh, my God.

But she was unsuccessful. The DNA results came back, and Aaliyah Hernandez was Delimar Vera. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. She just got that call and she was like, she like threw the phone down and she just ran around the room like high-fiving everybody. And she was like, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

No, she didn't. I knew it the whole fucking time. No, she was just like completely beside herself. She couldn't believe. Yeah. That she was right. This is amazing. This is amazing. This is amazing.

Her mother's intuition this whole fucking time was right. Oh, my God. So when they took the DNA test before the results came back, they maybe thought that there was a chance that Carolyn would try and do something sneaky because they actually took Aaliyah into protective custody at that time. And then once the DNA test came back, a warrant was issued for Carolyn Correa's arrest. And she was nowhere to be found. Fancy that.

Yeah. Like two days later, she turned herself in and her attorney was like, listen, she wasn't on the run. She just wanted me to be present when she surrendered herself. And I was tied up with other things. Which bull fucking shit. Yeah. No. No.

Because in those two days they issued like a whole like you know be on the lookout this is the car she'll be driving all that stuff and it made big news yes yeah and then her knees like oh excuse me no she wasn't

on the run was he a crotchety old tiny it's just the voice that came out of me. Excuse me. He had a good self. So she was arrested and she was charged

with kidnapping, arson, conspiracy to commit, kidnapping, and interfering with parental custody. Like a whole bunch of things. And then all of these people

had to fucking eat crow and Lou stood around and watched them all do it and was like, fuck you guys. I would be, can you imagine how vindicated she must have felt? I bet she, it was more sad than anything. Oh yeah, I'm sure it was. Because

see, yeah, I don't, just not being believed like that. And then you're wondering what kind of life. Well, she began to question herself, too. What kind of life did my child have with this person? Yeah. Who would do something like that? I mean, six years. Yeah.

I think it would just feel horrible. She was overjoyed that would just feel horrible. She was overjoyed that her daughter was alive. She was. Well, of course. Well, yes. Yes. They did a custody hearing immediately to determine what the process would be of

reuniting Delamar with them. Because this was a little girl. This was a very traumatic situation for her. Carolyn was the only mother she'd ever known. Yeah. And now she's being told, oh, sorry, she's not your mom. This other woman is your mom. And when they took Aaliyah from Carolyn's custody

and put her in protective custody while they awaited the DNA results, Carolyn made this huge scene and was like, this is the last time you're ever going to see mommy and don't, you'll never see me again. And, like, made this huge show. I mean, as if it wasn't traumatic enough. Right. And so they did. It's all about you.

Yeah. It's whatever you want. Exactly. Oh, you want a kid? Just steal one. Just steal one. Mm-hmm. And so they did.

It's all about you. Yeah. It's whatever you want. Exactly. Oh, you want a kid? Just steal one. Just steal one. Mm-hmm. So they did this hearing to determine what the best process would be.

And they determined they'd do, like, a gradual, like, she'd spend a night and then, you know, a couple nights. And so it would be a gradual transition from essentially foster care is where they put her and back to Luz's custody. So Luz and Pedro were not together anymore. And so there was like about to be like a weird custody battle there about who Delimar should go to. Some time in foster care was better than. That's what they determined. I know.

I don't know, man. Because she's not used to foster care either. No. No. No. So they did this interview with Luz, like, right at the time that they, you know, found out that, yes, it is Delimar. And they were like, how do you think it's going to be? Because she hadn't even gotten to meet her yet essentially at that point and she's like you know I feel in my heart that she will accept me as as her mother I I just feel that that is what will happen yeah and she's like

I felt such a strong connection to her that day I saw her at the party. I just know she will feel it too. And so it became time for their like formal meeting and they met at like this, you know, some weird room at some place. And they go in and Delimar like runs and hides under a table. Yeah. And then she popped out and goes, surprise!

Oh my god! Oh my god! And Luz is like, surprise! Do you know who I am? And she's like, yes, you're my mother. Oh.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes. And it was like not the moment that she was prepared for at all. But it seemed like, I mean, she hugged her and it seemed like things were maybe going to be okay. She was happy and giggly and whatever. And a short time after this, like when the reunification process was completed, Delimar did like a little interview for the news station, like right outside her home where she was, you know, going to now live full time. And they asked her how she was feeling and if she was happy. And she said, yes, I'm at my real home.

I'm happy. Wow. And then she asked them not to come back anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Goodbye. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. back anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Goodbye. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There was a lot of speculation about like the long term psychological effects on this. And I'm sure there are some. I don't have any information on that. But yeah, I can't imagine that that is an easy thing to grasp. No. Children are resilient. And that's what all the psych like the psychologists who commented on this said. Like, yeah, children are resilient and the family bond does mean something and whatever.

But I can't fucking imagine. No. So as I mentioned, there was like a little fight between Luz and Pedro about who was going to get custody of Delimar. And they were about to go to court over it. And finally, Luz was like, this is not what is in the best interest of Delimar. She does not need a court battle. And so they just decided to do joint custody. She has like she lives with Luz and then Pedro had visitation rights. She lives with Luce and then Pedro had visitation rights.

So now what to do with Carolyn Correa? Lock her up. Okay. So they're like – I have a suggestion. No fucking shit, right? Yeah. So they're moving towards trial and pretrial motions are basically showing that the defense is working on an insanity defense. Mm-hmm.

It looked like they were going to claim that Carolyn suffered from pseudosiesis. What's that? It's where someone wants to be pregnant so bad that they believe they actually are. Carolyn had three children from her first marriage. And after her third child, she had her tubes tied. Like everybody in her family knew she had her tubes tied. Like this was not a surprise. And then. The few years later, she started like claiming to have pregnancies and then losing the baby. But there are no medical record that any of this happened.

As far as how she explained all of a sudden having a baby on December 15th, nobody in her family knew or believed that she was pregnant at that time. But her boyfriend at the time says that she did tell him that she was pregnant in the months prior to the fire. months prior to the fire. And then on December 15th, the day of the fire, she showed up at his house with a baby and said she'd given birth three days earlier at home. And he didn't think that was strange. Right. And she like, OK, so it's like the evening of December 15th. OK, she shows up at his house. Hey, here's your newborn daughter. And she like, okay, so it's like the evening of December 15th, okay? She shows up at his house.

Hey, here's your newborn daughter. Hey, I had her at home three days ago feeling great. No big deal. Why don't you take her for a little bit? Bond with her. And then she disappeared for like an hour and a half. Which is oddly like about the exact amount of time from when she was first. Oh my God.

At Luz and Pedro's house. Oh my God. To when she came back. Oh. Yeah. This is sick. Yeah. So the prosecution's theory is that she worked with somebody. She, in that initial visit, she got the baby out of the house.

She handed it to somebody on the roof of the porch, something like that. They took the baby away. And then when she came back, she set that fire or helped the fire start because they would never rule this officially an arson. The fire investigator refused to look into it again, even after all of this came out. And said, no, we investigated this fire and it was caused by a faulty extension cord. There's

no sign that this was arson. Okay, dude. Yeah. So they ended up having to drop the arson charge against her because of that. Anyway, okay. I know, right? Well, do they have enough to really just just you wait. Okay. okay. I know, right? Well, do they have enough to really just just you wait. Okay.

Okay. If she gets 10 years and 5 years probation, I'm just going to lose it. So, that's the prosecution's official theory. Somebody worked with her to get the baby out of the house and then she started the fire to cover up the fact that the baby was missing. Right.

And then she hoped that, yes, they would determine that the baby had died in the fire. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think that's pretty. Yeah, that's also my theory. Yes, I agree. After studying this for many minutes. Yes. So that day, Carolyn shows up with a baby and tells her, you know, her boyfriend, oh,

I had the baby at home. Everything's cool here. Bond with the baby and tells her, you know, her boyfriend, oh, I had the baby at home. Everything's cool here. Bond with the baby. Whatever. But then, like, Carolyn's family started questioning it. They're like, okay, first of all, you had your fucking tubes tied. And excuse me, you've told nobody that you're pregnant and all of a sudden you have a baby? Right.

I don't know, man. Looks pretty weird. Yeah. And, like, people thought it was pretty weird, but nobody really ever did anything with that information. And there is proof that Carolyn was not pregnant, could not have been pregnant. There's not a chance in hell that this is her biological baby. And so another claim that they make during all of this, this is all in pretrial motions where they're trying to determine what defense they're going to take.

There's another claim that like, oh, she had a stillborn baby and then in... Let me guess, no record of that. In a moment, you know,

of psychosis after losing that baby, she stole this baby and, you know, she couldn't, she didn't know right from wrong because of the loss and blah, blah, blah.

Right. So, again, there's proof that this is not possible because Carolyn went to the doctor on December 3rd claiming to have horrible pains in her side. And they asked her, is it possible that you could be pregnant? And she said, yes. I took a pregnancy test. I have a positive pregnancy test. So this is on December 3rd. So they order an ultrasound.

She's not pregnant. There's no sign that she's been pregnant any time recently. There's no sign that she's suffered any kind of miscarriage or anything like that. And this is like December 3rd. That's less than two weeks before she claims to have given birth at home to this baby. So they have her examined by some psychiatrists in this as they're moving towards trial. And so she's interviewed by three independent psychiatrists in this as they're moving towards trial and so she's she's interviewed by three independent psychiatrists and two of them are like no it's it's a ruse it's it's fake

yeah but one of them believed that she was really suffering from pseudosiesis okay apparently her defense team was like i don't if this is the way to go because they dropped this whole thing, removed all of their motions about. Really? Uh-huh. And they went in a different direction. They started to focus on the statute of limitations. Those buttholes. All right.

Those buttholes. All right. So this becomes important. And Pedro not being on Delimar's birth certificate becomes important legally. Okay. So they said that the statute of limitations on kidnapping is like five years from when it happens. Unless, so that's if someone knows it happens. So if Luz and Pedro knew that Delimar had been kidnapped and then chose to do nothing about it, statute of limitations would be out because they knew that their daughter had been kidnapped. They knew where she was.

And that's that. That ends the crime. Okay. she was and that's that that ends the crime right okay so now carolyn claims that pedro gave her the baby she didn't know why she didn't ask any questions she just took the baby and started raising it as her own no questions asked and then no one ever came back and got her. So. Oh, my God, I hate this. Yeah. And so, hey, Pedro knew.

Pedro knew the whole time where the baby was. So statute of limitations. Can't do kidnapping. Nice try. And then they found out that Pedro's not technically on the birth certificate. So. Oh, shit. Maybe that argument doesn't work.

Uh-huh. Because they couldn't prove. They couldn't prove that Pedro knew where the baby was. There was nothing really backing this up. There was a couple of family members because Pedro and Carolyn were related by marriage. Right. Like, she had once been married to a cousin. So, like, occasionally they'd be at the same very large family gathering. And so some family member was like, oh, yeah, like, he's seen her with that kid before.

Right, but he just didn't know. I think even if that is true, he says that he maybe saw her with the kid once. And, like, it was like she was leaving the gathering and he was well i bet she was yeah and so like yeah he says that like no i never i never know saw her and thought oh carolyn has my daughter and like everything's no also the statute of limitations can suck my ass. It is bullshit. Yeah. So now they've put all these pretrial motions in that they're focusing on the statute of limitations. And the prosecution's like, ah, ah, ah, not so quick because you're focusing on Pedro.

And Pedro's not even on the birth certificate. Mm-hmm. And so then the defense is like, well, fudge buckets. Mm-hmm. And they're like, so, prosecution, would you maybe be interested in working a deal? Carolyn would be more than happy to plead guilty to interfering with parental custody as long as she avoids jail time. What? Mm-hmm.

No jail time? Yeah, and the prosecution is like, not a fucking chance. Get out of here. Yes. She avoids jail time. What? Mm-hmm. No jail time? Yeah. And the prosecution is like, not a fucking chance. Get out of here. Yes. Yeah. We're going to trial. And you better believe we're going to convict her of kidnapping.

Yeah. And so the defense has to go back to Carolyn and be like, hey, I know you don't want to go to jail. But this isn't looking good. So pretty sure that we need to try and work another dealer. We're going to trial. And so finally they agree to a deal with the prosecution in February of 2005 where they she pleads no contest to three charges. where she pleads no contest to three charges. Kidnapping, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, and interfering with parental custody.

They had to remove the arson charge because the fire investigator wouldn't declare it an arson to begin with. Your face right now. Are we going to have to title this episode Not Enough Time? Yeah, probably. So she pleads no contest to this, which we know no contest is basically like, oh, I'm not saying I did it. No, I don't want to compete. I'm not even ready.

I'm sorry. Is that not what you were looking for? She gave us... Tell me what she got. She gave a statement at her sentencing where she said that she loved Aaliyah, as she called her. And she believed that she saved Aaliyah and Aaliyah saved her. No. You say that about a rescue dog. You don't say that when you steal someone else's child.

Yeah. And the judge responded to that by saying, you robbed a small girl of a very great deal. And her whole family. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So prior to her sentencing, the defense made this big, bold claim that they were going to name

the co-conspirator because the prosecution believed there was a co-conspirator because the prosecution believed there was a co-conspirator in this case. Somebody helped Carolyn abduct Delimar. Okay. And they made, like, this big, like, hint that they were going to reveal it at the sentencing and then the judge was going to go easy and whatever. But they never did.

Yeah. She was sentenced to 30 years. Oh. What? And she was paroled after nine. It's not great. Wow. She does have to serve the rest of that time on probation.

So that protects Delimar to some degree. Part of her parole requirements would be that she couldn't come near Delimar or contact her in any way. And I don't find that very satisfying. She stole a child and raised it for six. That's nuts. Yes. Are we not a little afraid of what this woman's kid will do, right? So after her sentencing, she sat down with a reporter for, hold on, let me make sure I'm naming the right reporter, with the Philadelphia Daily News.

Okay. And gave an interview. Her side of the story. Oh, my God, Brandi. If you will. Oh, wow. This story has so many contradictions, and it's not even, there's not a chance that any part of it is true. But she wants the world to know that she's not a monster.

Okay. And that Pedro gave her that baby. You stole Pedro's baby and now you're blaming him for it. Pedro gave her that baby. She doesn't know why. They'd never had a conversation about it. He just handed her a baby. He just handed her the baby.

Silently. She just happened to have a car seat all ready to go in her car baby. He just handed her the baby. Silently. She just happened to have a car seat all ready to go in her car. That's great. Mm-hmm. And she just assumed

that's what Pedro and Luz wanted. They wanted her to raise their baby. And Luz, she was there at the house the day it happened.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She assumed she knew about it. So, the house the day it happened she assumed she knew about it so i don't know i think it's very clear that carolyn was suffering for some pretty severe mental illness because she did some very weird things like in the course of this investigation, like sending the picture, that wasn't Aaliyah. She went and got her own independent DNA test, like she was going to prove that Aaliyah was her daughter when she knew the whole time it wasn't. See, to me, that's not indicative of a mental illness. That's just indicative of lying.

See, I think there's part of it where she like maybe had lied so much that she had convinced herself that this was her baby. Because when they told her that the DNA test showed that Aaliyah was not her child, she broke down into hysterics and was screaming, then where's my baby? What happened to my baby? Yeah. You think that's all an act? Yeah. It's possible. Yeah, I do think it's possible

yeah she i mean she just the in the the judge said to her i don't believe anything that comes out of your mouth you've given me no reason to believe that you're anything other than like a master manipulator and a liar exactly what i think Yeah. And in fairness, if you kidnapped someone and you got away with it for six years, maybe you would think, Yeah. I can get out of this.

I can get out of this. Yeah. Let's do my independent test. Yeah. There are people who believe Carolyn's version. Well,

there are anti-vaxxers and flat workers, too. That's right. And that there are anti-vaxxers and flat-ruthers, too. That's right. And that there are people that claim that Pedro, like I said, saw Aaliyah slash Delimar at multiple family events. He very well may have. I agree. He didn't know it was his kid. I completely agree.

And I'm sorry, do these people not have big families? Sometimes when you do a big family party, there's just people everywhere. Yes. And you don't know all the kids' names. Yes. Have you ever been to a big Hispanic gathering? Like, I've been to many. And they are huge.

Everybody's there. Yes. You know less than half the people. Yeah, everybody's a cousin yeah everybody's a cousin and you're like I'm yeah I'm just here for the

Tres Leges that's exactly right Luce sold the rights to their story to Lifetime oh hell yeah Lifetime movie about this

she used the proceeds from that to buy a house for her and her kids. Delimar. I know, I know. I was very excited about it too. Delimar is now an adult. Does she go by Delimar? Uh-huh. She does.

Okay. And according to her Instagram, she is engaged and is working on a book about her story. I would love to know so much more about this story from her point of view. So, oh my gosh, I hope that happens. Yeah, she has like a little in her bio about like, thank you for following my story, book to come.

Yeah. All right. Yeah. All right. And that is, that was wild. With a pretty happy ending. Yeah, absolutely. I was really rooting for Carolyn and I'm so glad she only got nine years.

Boy. Yeah. Nine years! The real question is, what happened to her baby, Brittany? I think, I don't know. So there's people who are like, there are parts of the story that are like, I don't know. I don't know if I believe that. Like the fact that the fire department says that the fire started from the extension cord and the space heater.

Like, well, then how can you say that Carolyn started that fire? I don't think it's a coincidence that that fire happened that day. I really don't. Yeah. That'd be one hell of a fucking coincidence, wouldn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. Look at her track record.

Yeah! Maybe. Maybe it was tunnel vision. Kristen. Yeah, I think it was tunnel vision. The woman who had the child. This is what I hate because obviously tunnel vision's bad. Absolutely. Ruling out other possibilities, bad. Using your common sense, not bad.

Oh my Lord. Can you fucking imagine if you're like, I know my baby's alive. I swear. Everybody has told you you're a fucking crazy person. And then you walk into a party doing your best to just, you know, have yourself together and be out amongst your family. And there's your fucking kid. No. I probably would just drop dead right there.

I don't know what I would do. I don't. I don't either. You know what I think we should do now? I think we should take some questions from the Discord. That's what I was going to say. Oh, my God. We're just on the same wavelength.

With our terrible depressing case. Well, yours wasn't really case. Mine was pretty, yeah. Mine was a bit uplifting. She was alive the whole time. The whole time. The whole time! Okay, so here's the deal, folks. It's a $5 level

on our Patreon. You get into the Discord. That's right. You know what happens in here? You chitty chat the day away. About once a week, we come in. We say, hey, we're recording an episode. Do you have any questions? And then you just send us all kinds of questions. And then we read some of them and we answer some of them.

Have I over explained this? No, I think people get it. Sonia's Garden asks, asks brandy i'm newly pregnant geriatric and damn miserable the heartburn the sickness the bipolar moods any tips tricks of the trade places to hide my husband's body if he keeps laughing at me when i cry my way through two hours of the voice okay i cried constantly while i was pregnant because i'm like a i'm a drop of the hat crier normally and And then all those hormones, man. Okay.

No. The reason I picked this question to answer is because the heartburn. I had insane heartburn when I was pregnant with London. And I finally talked to my doctor about it. And she gave me prescription heartburn medication. She said, I wish more women would talk about their heartburn because it's one of the few pregnancy symptoms that we can actually do something about. So call your doctor. Once I started that prescription medication, which is a pill I took every night, my whole life was changed.

Brandy, who knows how many people you helped just now? That's awesome. Oh my gosh. Yeah. She was like, nobody ever talks about their heartburn because they just think it's like a normal part of pregnancy. It is like one of the very few things we can help you with. You're like, also, there's a kid growing in my body. She's like, yeah, sorry. That's just part of it. Cool, cool, cool.

Wants to know favorite interior design styles. Least favorite. I'm very into like coastal right now. Oh, are you? Okay. I want my house to feel like I'm just like, you know,

on Cape Cod. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you're in the middle of the country, so it's going to be more like a man-made lake.

Hey, a broken dream. That's right. You're like a, what would you call your style? Hmm. Hmm. I don't know. Hmm.

Um. God, I have no idea what I'm saying. It's very eclectic. It is. You like some vintage-y stuff. Some traditional stuff. Some fun stuff. Yeah, a little fun flair sprinkled in.

You know what I'm snobby about? What? I don't want what's popular right now. Oh. Thank you. I like some things that are popular and don't want to overdo it. Yeah. But you know what?

It's just because Norman and I have moved so many times. By so many times, I mean like we've sold two houses and both times we tried to get them as close to what was popular at that moment so it would sell. Oh, yeah. And then I never got to live in it. Yeah. And so it just made me really bitter about any wall that's gray with white trim and white subway tile. Yeah. So there you go.

Okay. subway tile. Yeah. So there you go. Okay. Permafrown wants to know have either of you ever served on a jury?

Would you ever want to? Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I want to so bad. I once got called It's the thrill of my life. I went up to the courthouse. I sat there all day

in a room. I was in a reserve pool. And then like after like six hours they were, you're free to go. I've never even been called. Never even gotten into the room where it happens. The room where it happens. I would love to serve on a jury.

Hold on. Brandy won't take guac with that, asks Brandy. Thoughts on Zac Efron's new face? What new face? I have no idea. Multiple people have said this. I have. There's like a whole, like.

Did he get surgery or something? Yeah, there's a surgery theory going around, apparently. I'm sorry. I just slurped my water right into the mic. That's... What? People love that. Oh! His cheeks do look... Okay, I'm googling Zac Efron

new face. Uh-huh. Okay. Uh-huh. I think... I'm questioning if he got some fillers. Yeah. Maybe that is just some... That might just be some fillers. Yeah. Maybe that is just some, that might just be some fillers. Yeah. And also might just be weight gain, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I told you he's kind of got like a. Oh, God, he's beautiful. He is. He's very handsome. Yeah. I think there's a couple of things going on here.

I think he's just getting older. Mm-hmm. He has put on a little bit of weight and maybe he got some fillers. And also he's still gorgeous. Yes. God, I would hate it if people pulled apart my looks like this. Oh, we actually talked about this. Unity Gooch says, if you had to create a recipe for popcorn salad that wasn't the recipe that you used, what would be in it?

So you and I did talk about this afterwards. And I told you I would make a sweet popcorn salad. And that's exactly what Unity Gooch says. She said, I would do mine in true Midwest fashion. Lots of marshmallows, popcorn, cool whip, and some type of pudding mix. Okay. There. God, I'm so Midwestern.

There's a popcorn recipe. Oh, my gosh. It's from the Taste of Home cookbook. It's for vanilla popcorn. Let me tell you, it is so damn good. What you do, you pop your popcorn. You get some butter going on the stove. You do corn syrup.

You do sugar. You do vanilla. You melt it all down until it's ooey gooey. Then you drizzle that all over the popcorn. You let that harden up. Delicious. Yeah, that sounds really good. It's amazing.

Yeah. Popcorn salad, not amazing. No. That stuff, amazing. So a couple of other people have sent us, there's this woman on TikTok who's like Midwestern mom or something like that, and she shares Midwestern salad recipes. She shared this Snickers recipe on the most recent TikTok. Snickers salad.

It is chopped up Snickers. Okay. Apples. Well, for the health. Cool whip. All mixed together. Sounds delicious. Sounds so good. And you reserve some of those cut up Snickers to

sprinkle on top. That's right. This is the way of our people. She also added Milky Way in hers because she said it tastes like caramel apple, which sounds great. I would not question her. Veronica H. wants to know, what are your go-to shoes? I could wear slides every single day if I could. Flip flops all the way. Flippy floppies. I wear them from the spring.

She's thinking really hard. All the way through the fall until like the very last day that I can. Hoodies and flippies, for sure. Hoodies and flippies make no sense-y. You hate hoodies and flippies make no sensey you hate hoodies and flippies I also am weird about a long sleeve shirt

with shorts I think it's very strange no love it very strange look I do long sleeves and shorts I do long sleeves constantly yeah

you're a mess okay lady you're just you're no can't make any sense out of you. Caitlin wants to know, what's your favorite trash chain restaurant? Applebee's, Chili's, Cheesecake Factory, et cetera.

So many. Oh, my God. See, I told you last week. You're dying to go to the Outback. I'm dying to go anywhere. Yeah. told you last week you're dying to go to the outback i'm dying to go anywhere yeah haven't been to a restaurant haven't sat in a restaurant in over a year and i love restaurants yeah i know um i hate chilies and applebees though okay fucking love chilies easy well i'm sorry i love

their chips and salsa it's so fucking fucking good. At Chili's? Yes. Give me a break. It's so good. I'm going to bring you their salsa, but I'm going to tell you that I got it from some fucking authentic Mexican restaurant. And you're going to be like, this is the best salsa I've ever had.

And then I'm going to peel the label away. It's going to be like those old Domino's commercials. Were those Domino's commercials? And they were like, aha, you fool. I will say, she mentioned Cheesecake Factory. I'm going to tear up some cheesecake. That place is fucking good.

Okay. Their menu is overwhelming, though. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. I don't mind it. It's so 90s style. It's like, you know, 5,000 items. And you think, how can they possibly do this well?

They do it all well. They do it quite well. Like lemon meringue cheesecake. You ever had it? Oh, my God. I want to go so bad. Let's go to all the restaurants. All of them.

Let's eat until we explode. LGTC Fangirl wants to know, if you were a golden girl, who would you be? Obviously, I'd be Dorothy. You think so? Yeah. You're kind of a hoe. Oh. You're kind of a hoe.

Dorothy in the streets, Blanche in the sheets, am I right? Yeah, that's it. Who do you think I would be? It could be like a little bit of Rose. No, you're not gullible enough to be Rose. But I do say a lot of dumb shit. BeesFly22 wants to know thoughts on cannabis legalization. Fucking do it. Do it.

Give me a break. Oh, my gosh. What's the holdup? Kansas is working on it. Yeah, Kansas is usually on the cutting edge of stuff like that. Definitely not. So Missouri has legalized it for medicinal purposes. And we've decriminalized it in Kansas City.

Yeah. We. I was on the ground floor of that. Part of the grassroots movement. No, I voted for it. Yeah, I mean, I don't understand the problem. Just legalize it and, you know, sell it. And quit locking people up for that shit.

That is so ridiculous. Oh, my gosh. Unity Gooch wants to know, have either of you ever gotten into gardening or taking care of plants? Brandy? Mm-hmm. Do you see my poison ivy? Shit, where is it? You got poison ivy again?

I got just a smattering. Just a smattering of poison ivy. It's not going to be like last year where I basically rolled naked in it. That was terrible. Oh, my God. That was the worst. I'm into it. It looks great.

Your yard looks amazing. It's a very much a work in progress. I saw some tulips, some daffodils. Your trees look great. Hedges, freshly trimmed. Thank you for noticing. You got that new little address plaque out there amongst your landscaping. Oh my gosh. It looks great. Becoming very old. I'm so excited about it. And I've been thinking like, so when am I going to just take a couple days and just work on the yard?

Just really get out here. There's a lot of weeds to pull. Just get after it. There's a lot to plant. I'm wondering if I can, okay. I'm wondering if I can do a garden. What kind of garden are you thinking? Oh my God. Like you want to grow some vegetables? All right, calm down. I'm wondering if I can... Okay. I'm wondering if I can do a garden. What kind of garden are you thinking? Oh my god. Like you want to grow some vegetables?

Alright, calm down. I'll tell you. I'll tell you everything. Okay, so there are all these... There's like this area of my yard where we could do a garden. Yeah. Quite excited about it. I want to do herbs. I think I want to... I think I just want to buy a bunch of shit and see

what happens. See what happens. I'm really wild that I think I just want to buy a bunch of shit and see what happens. I'm really wild that way. Throw it in the ground and see what pops up. I'm kind of a free spirit. I don't know if you heard, I recently purchased three tablecloths. So it's kind of wild around here.

With a potential garden. Would you take some produce? Yeah. Can you grow some bell peppers? I love bell peppers. Are you specific about the color? No.

You shocked me. Equal opportunity bell pepper lover. Really? Yeah. Okay. Okay. You're so picky. I didn't know.

Yeah. I love bell peppers. All right. Zucchini. Lots of people love to grow zucchini. It seems to be pretty hearty. I would tear some fucking zucchini up. We're going to do it up Sherry Pitt right. Zucchini. Lots of people love to grow zucchini. It seems to be pretty hearty. I would tear some fucking zucchini up. We're going to do it up Sherry Pitt style.

Oh, yes. Saute covered in cheddar cheese. Yes. Mm, mm, mm, mm. Seven layer salad. I will ask you not to speak about my big butthole. Thank you. What?

Seven layer salad said, did anyone else hear my big butthole when Brandy said big bubble? I was loving my big bubble. It's about time you embraced your big butthole. Veronica H wants to know, what are your most awkward moments with each other's significant other? Oh, huh. I think really Norm and I started out pretty awkward because he thought he was so cool and wanted to show off his cat to me. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. But we've become quite close. God, why did I say it like that? Why did you say that? Quite close. That sounded very inappropriate. You guys, she's saying this while she's sitting in his lap. Until this moment, it didn't occur to me there could be something funky going on.

It's funny because, like, I feel like quarantine hit and then, you know, it's like we're not all hanging out a ton. So we've not had the privilege of some really awkward moments. I'm trying to think if anything happened that time we went to Branson. Did anything go down? I don't know. David and Norm bought matching pants, which in itself is kind of awkward. Oh, my God. I forgot they bought matching pants.

We tore up that outlet mall. We sure did. That was the outlet mall trip that Norm realized he'd been wearing the wrong size shoes his entire life. He's been a wide this whole time. It was amazing. Yep. David and Norm got matching pants. They bought matching pants.

Maybe that's the most awkward thing. I think it is. I think it is our significant other's about pants to match each other. That is the most awkward. Oh, oh. You know what? God.

Oh, God. This whole time, my ego was making me think, what weird, awkward thing has David done in front of me? No, our most awkward moment is when I was weird and awkward and I showed up hungover when we were going to go to the Wren Fest. And he had to walk me through how to behave. He had to nurse you back to hell. Yeah, yeah.

And he really didn't know me all that well. That's true, he didn't. So that's for sure. Our most awkward moment caused by me. Gosh, who would have guessed that I could be awkward? Oh, supermodel with a broken camera. Now, what was your favorite childhood book? Do you have any that are like, I have two that I'm very nostalgic about.

What? So they're both Dr. Seuss books. And my dad and my mom used to read them to us. So my dad used to read Casey and I, Cat in the Hat all the time. Casey was thing one. I was thing two. Right. And then my mom would read us um walk it in my pocket and i used to be able

to recite there's a walk it in my pocket from memory i can't do it anymore though my favorite book from childhood is definitely the joy of sex you guys were very progressive. No. Okay. As a really little kid, Yertle the Turtle. Oh, yeah. Yertle the Turtle. Yeah.

King of the pond. King of all of Salamason. About Hitler. Think on that for a while. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Okay. Okay. I need to know this.

Popcorn Salad Poop wants to know, what are your bedding preferences? Top sheet? Do you use your comforter or is it just for looking good? How many pillows? Now, we've discussed you and I are both anti-top sheets. That's right. But I want to know your thoughts on pillows. Okay.

Okay. Most of my life, I was a two-pillow sleeper. Mm-hmm. Yep. And then I read an article by a chiropractor who says that's terrible for your back. Really? And so I switched to one pillow. What?

And my back feels so much better. Really? Yes. Oh, my. Yeah. Huh. Okay. I have always been a two pillow sleeper.

Uh-huh. Recently changed it to three. That's too many pillows, Kristen. It might be. You got to reverse it. Reverse it. Go down to one pillow. Just feel it out.

See how it goes. What kind of, I think we're on the same page comforter wise. We have a down comforter. Yeah. You have a down comforter as well. I see you guys are pretty bold with your down comforter, though. You don't have a duvet on that fucker or anything. We have a duvet on ours.

I have looked for duvets for that thing. I just haven't found one that I liked. But, yeah, I do live balls out. You do? I live balls out with my bright white down comforter. Here's the thing, though. I have two of those bad boys. And one is in the wash at all times.

See, here's the thing. And one of them is kind of yellow. I told you today that we just ordered a new bed. Very excited about it. My dream is to have a bright white comforter on it.

Yeah. I don't think I can handle it. It makes me too nervous. I don't – okay, here's – here's the thing. Okay. You know I'm terrible with my skin. I'll just go to bed with my fucking – Yeah, what the hell is your deal?

With my fucking makeup on. And so it's just I'm going to wake up and my face is just going to be right there on my bright white comforter. How does this happen that you fall asleep with your makeup on? I've always wondered about these women. I don't like inadvertently fall asleep with it. I'm just like, oh, I'd like to go to bed now. And I don't wash my face. But you get in bed with your makeup on?

Yeah. Yeah, just. Okay, so here bed with your makeup on? Yeah. Yeah, just... Okay, so here's what happens. Okay, okay. I'm sitting in my living room and I'm like, gosh, I'm pretty tired. I think I'd like to go to bed now. And so then I get up and I walk to my bedroom and I get in bed.

I was expecting more of a story. You know what pisses me off about this story? What? You've got really nice skin. Thank you. No, you don't deserve it. It's clearly genetics.

It is genetics. Uh-huh. Me, I'm over here with my gigantic pores visible from outer space. You know what I have? I have a skincare routine. You have beautiful skin. You know what I have? I have a skin care routine. You have beautiful skin. I, you know what I have to do for this? And by the

way, I've got the hugest pimple ever as you say that. I, by the time I slide into bed at night, You've completed a 13 step regimen. I, my skin glistens like a slugs. Okay?

I've got my serums. I've got my lotions. I do this. You like a jade roller? I sure do. Probably doesn't do shit. I do that. I want to do that microneedling.

Oh, God. That scares me. I know because you don't like needles. I know. I bet you don't even know. I bet you don't even know what's happening. I'm sure. What do they do for that, though?

It's like a little roller. But it's needles. Little needles. You know what's terrifying? I have seen those things at like TJ Maxx. Oh, yeah. It's like, hell no.

I need a trained professional. Absolutely. To go into town with that. I'm not letting myself go wild with like a bunch of needles. Yeah. professional. Absolutely. To go into town with that. I'm not letting myself go wild with like a bunch of needles. Anyway, I'm really happy for you and your nice skin. Okay, so this is what I'm thinking I'm going to do. Okay.

I'm going to get a white duvet to put on my already white down comforter. And maybe I'll do what you just said. Get two. Rotate them out. Keep one. Oh, God. I flailed about too much. When you find your white duvet, please send me a link to it. Because I've looked and I've just not found

nothing striking or fancy. Because that would be a lot easier to just take. Yeah, exactly. You just whip that thing off, throw that in the washing machine. Because that's the thing is I piss the bed most nights. No, but I heard about your cat's butthole. What? What?

No, I don't remember any of this what are you talking about it was like a little butthole stamp right there on the pillow. I tend to forget some of the more glamorous moments of my life. What was that you said about my very clean bed? I mean, you washed the pillow. Like, you took the pillowcase off and went and washed it. Nobody got pink eye. Oh, oh, hold on, hold on.

Josie, Josie, Josie says, Brandy, what do you think about the Dr. Phil situation? Three question marks. I have no idea. I don't know what the Dr. Phil. I do not keep up with Dr. Phil. Brandy, you love Dr. Phil. No. I think my love of Dr. Phil has been quite overblown on this podcast.

Now you're just embarrassed. I don't know. I don't know what the Dr. Phil situation is. Okay, well, we'll just have to leave that out there. Here's a one-star review on his TV show that says Dr. Phil is a sexist pig. He is not for women or men or children, for that matter. He is only interested in furthering himself. Well, probably right.

There you have it, folks. Oh, Abby wants to know, have you ever been peer pressured into something? Yes, I have. Just last week, I was peer pressured into tasting popcorn salad. That was your idea. Oh, it was. Making the popcorn salad for the video was my idea. The whole time I was like, I'm not going to try this.

I'm not going to eat it. Are you kidding me? I'm not going to eat this. You were going to make me eat it alone? I can't do it. And then you were like, you got to take a bite. You got to take, come on, all the cool kids are doing it. Come on, just one bite, Brandy, just one bite.

What are you, a loser? And so then I took a bite. And you know what? I was a loser. I lost my lunch that day. And my dinner. I haven't even told you the follow up. What?

I threw my dinner up that night too cause my stomach still just could not are you serious yeah oh my god yeah

that's right well I will say you can't make something and then not try it uh huh see uh huh peer pressure okay what have you peer pressured me to do You can't make something and then not try it. Uh-huh. See?

Uh-huh. Peer pressure. Okay, what have you peer pressured me to do? Let's see here. I'm sure I've been peer pressured into stuff. Oh, you know what? Got peer pressured into using a diva cup. This is what happens when you get a friend who's really enthusiastic about the diva cup.

They peer pressure you into trying it. I use it sometimes. Yeah. Overall, don't love it. Yeah. I'm sorry. I know it's... It's environmentally friendly. Yes.

Yep. But man. Sorry, I don't really have anything to say that's not disgusting. Should we move on to Supreme Court notions? I think we should. Okay, everyone. Today we are continuing reading your names and your favorite cookies. I'm sorry.

I am stuck on Dr. Phil's page here. I need to get to the Supreme Court adductions. Per my last email, we're on. In the future, please. All right. you ready? I am ready. Ophelia Heine. Vanilla wafers.

Okay, Ophelia. Okay. Lacey. Peanut butter blossoms. Amy Lee. Chocolate chup. Allie Hill. Oatmeal Chocolate Chip

Tiffany Chocolate Peanut Butter No-Bake Cookies I have to make them. That sounds so fucking good. I love those. Are you okay? No. Annie Starr Chocolate Chip with Pretzel Pieces Do you want to tell your story?

Well, okay, everybody. I had this idea this week that, so there are these M&M cookies that I make that are quite good. They are delicious. And it occurred to me, what if I made them with the M&M pretzels? That's my favorite kind of M&M. I was like, that'll be delicious. So I got a big thing of them from the grocery store, a big thing of them. And then, you know, I told Norman, oh, yeah, I'm going to make cookies out of these.

We ate them in like two days. And we felt so much shame. Caitlin Shelton. Oatmeal chocolate chip. Danielle Edkins. Soft cinnamon cookies. Elise Jackson. Oh, no. Oh, no. Elise Jackson.

Jammie Dodgers. Karen like the memes. Chocolate chip or Thin Mints. Ashley Bleemers. Soft reverse chocolate chip cookies. What's a reverse chocolate chip cookie? Brad. Cafe style chocolate chip from Post the Toast.

Liz. Snickerdoodle. See Norris. My daughter's softy spicy cookies. Laura Grimkowski. Mint Oreos. Hannah Jane. Canadian maple flavor cookies?

It's got to be flavor cookies. I think we probably just dropped an L there. Okay, all right. La, la, la, la. Maple flavor cookies? It's got to be flavor cookies. I'm guessing. I think you probably just dropped an L there. Okay. All right. La, la, la, la. Brandy with a Y. Crunchy homemade peanut butter cookies. Dr. Fillory.

Oatmeal raisin cookies. Heather. Chocolate chip. Chris. Triple chocolate chip cookies That taste like brownies Okay Alright

Welcome To the Supreme Court Oh my gosh you guys Thank you so much You fucking do it You fucking do it Kristen

Oh my gosh you guys Thank you so much for listening Um If you want to support us You can't do it Send us bras Thank you All much for listening. If you want to support us, send us bras. Thank you, all of you, for all of your support. We appreciate

it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star review and then be sure to join us next week

when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

I got my info from an episode of Impact of Murder titled The Ballad of Botham John, as well as reporting from the New York Times, NPR, and a little Wikipedia. I got my info from an episode of the podcast Crime Lines, as well as articles for The Guardian, The Philadelphia Inquirer, The Philadelphia Daily News,

and The Courier Post. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. That was a long one. Fucking meaty. Meaty boy.