Let's Go To Court! - 173: The Kidnapping of Zephany Nurse & the Dionne Quintuplets

Episode Date: May 12, 2021

Celeste lay in her hospital bed, drifting in and out of sleep. Her newborn baby, Zephany, lay sleeping in a cot next to her. At some point, Celeste remembers a woman in a nurse’s uniform coming in to comfort her baby. Celeste didn’t think much of it. She fell back asleep. But when she woke up, the hospital staff was alarmed. Baby Zephany was missing.  Then Kristin tells us about five little girls who became a tourist attraction. In 1934, news of the Dionne Quintuplets spread worldwide. People couldn’t believe it. Five beautiful, identical little girls had been born to surprised parents in Ontario. Thousands of people showed up outside the Dionne’s farmhouse to get a look at the girls. But the girls’ parents, Elzire and Oliva, were torn. They weren’t sure how they could afford to care for their premature newborns, but they didn’t want to exploit them, either. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Dionne quintuplets: The exploitation of five girls raised in a baby zoo,” by Gillian Brockwell for the Washington Post  “BBC1 Miracle Babies - The Story of the Dionne Quintuplets” on YouTube “The story of the Dionne Quintuplets is a cautionary tale for the age of ‘kidfluencers,’” by Shelley Wood for Time Magazine “The dark side of the famous five,” by Ian Parker for the Independent “The babies of Quintland now: Broke, and bitter,” by Anthony Depalma for the New York Times “Dionne Quintuplets” entry on Wikipedia  In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “'The selfie that revealed I was a stolen baby’” by Sarah Mcdermott, BBC News “Search for daughter never-ending” by Bianca Capazorio and Leila Samodien, IOL “How a Teen Girl Learned She Was Abducted As a Baby” by Catie L’Heureux, The Cut “I’m broken, says man who raised Zephany Nurse” by Catherine Rice, IOL “In 2015, Miché met a girl who looked just like her. She had been abducted 17 years earlier.” by Billi Fitzsimmons, MamaMia “Celeste and Morné Nurse back together five years after finding long-lost daughter” by Daily Voice, IOL “My biological dad is a 'lost cause', Zephany Nurse reveals in new book” by Dave Chambers, Times Live “Zephany Nurse kidnapper jailed for 10 years in South Africa” by Jason Burke, The Guardian    YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about the Dionne Quintuplets. And I'll be talking about a kidnapping.

Ooh, back to your roots, huh? Yeah, that's right. I showed up in boots and ruined your black tie affair! Brandi! What? I had a nightmare about you. ruined your black tie affair Brandy what? I had a nightmare about you what happened? did my teeth fall out? I dream constantly

about my teeth falling out you're obsessed with your teeth I am it would be a shame if something happened to you it would be no okay so

I had a dream that you and I were podcasting, doing what we do best, this right here. A show which many people say is mediocre. They tried to love it. I tried, I really did. I really did. Okay. So I had this dream that we were podcasting and you started making fun of the COVID vaccine and like saying a bunch of false stuff.

And I had to be like, Brandy, Brandy, stop, stop. And then I was like, I don't know why, but I was like, oh God, you know what? A lot of people hate hearing about dreams because yeah, like this doesn't make any sense. But you know what? Why I dreamt that? Why? Before I fell asleep, I was reading up on that fucking Joe Rogan stuff where Dr. Fauci had to be like, no, no, that's false. That's false.

Oh, my God. Yeah. For the record, I'm extremely pro-vaccine. Extremely. I did a lot of vaccine research, picked out my favorite one, worked very hard to get it. That's right. That seems really weird. Picked out my favorite one.

I did. I researched all three of them. I got the cherry flavor. Picked out the one I liked best, which, controversial, I liked the Johnson & Johnson. You like blood clots? I'm pro blood clots. A little bit of a different take here. I showed up and was like, please give me anything.

You just whipped out your butt cheek and they were like, ma'am. It goes in her arm. But she did enjoy my butt cheek. I like the idea of you whipping out one butt cheek. Again, to be classy, Brandi. You don't show your whole ass. Just give them a taste. That's all the nurses want.

They just want a taste. That's why they call you the Grace Kelly of mooning. That's all the nurses want. They just want to taste. That's why they call you the Grace Kelly of mooning. That's right. You won't see any holes here. A lot of people can't relate to how classy I am. That's right. You know, we often get reviews that are like, whoa. Whoa, too classy.

This is too classy. I feel like I have to wear a ballgown just to listen. And they should! Yeah! I know we're kind of in sweats right now, but you all should be in tuxes, ballgowns,

black tie, not optional. Brandi? What? There's been some reactions. Black tie, not optional. Not optional. Brandy. What? There's been some reactions to our latest video on Patreon. I had a very violent reaction to it. A lot of people said that just watching the video of us eating popcorn salad made them feel sick. Yes. And if that sounds appealing to you, everyone, that

is available at the $7 level on our Patreon. You too can pay $7 to vomit. Y'all at the $5 level, you get monthly bonus episodes, and they're meaty boys. They're the real deal. The real deal. We don't cheat you. We give you all the meat. Also at that level, I don't cheat you we give you all the meat also at that level i don't know unless you're vegetarian

meat they're meat free but still hearty like a nice lentil a lentil sandwich is that a thing i think you know people use lentils as a meat substitute yeah but not on a sandwich anyway Did I say it was a sandwich? We called it a meat... Oh, you know what? I apologize. When I hear meaty boy, I think sandwich. That's my own paradigm. That's right.

Viewing things through my own lens. Pronounce paradigm. Boy, is my face red. At that level, you also get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. The $7 level, that's when you get to throw up and watch us eat disgusting food. That's right. Also, you get all the stuff from the lower levels, plus a sticker.

Ooh. Our autographs. Oh. Oh. What's the monetary value on a Kristen Caruso autograph these days? I think on eBay they're going for upwards of $3. What would you do if someone was selling one of our cars on eBay? I would feel so flattered.

If they could get $3, I'd be thrilled. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Someone posted in the Discord the other day that they're wearing their juvenile Bigfoot sweatshirt out in the wild in Kansas City, hoping that they see. I would lose my fucking mind. I would piss myself. Yes! They would regret wearing it.

Yes! Because I would want to hug them. Yes! I'd run over and be like, can I have a picture with you? Hello! Hello, it's me! You know what? Okay, this is just the low self-esteem talking.

I have thought about like, oh my God, what would it be like to see someone wearing our merch out in the wild? And I've always thought, oh my gosh, I'd freak out. I'd, I'd go talk to them.

I'd be like, oh my God. Hey. And in my fantasy of this, it always turns out like the person is just borrowing someone else's shirt. They have no idea what it means and so then it's like

really awkward. I got this in good way. I borrowed this from my lame sister. Yeah, she's into a lot of weird shit. You know what? If you'd like to get merch

but you want 10% off of it, you gotta sign up for the Bob Moss level. Bob Moss level. That's a $10 level. At that level, you also get episodes a day early and ad-free. I don't want any ads in my ear holes. Only in the butthole. Oh, okay.

Too much. Too much. That's too far. That wasn't classy. No. Got a kidnapping for me? I do have a kidnapping for you. I'm kind of excited.

I do love a kidnapping. I know. That's what people say when they see you. Ooh, Kristen. She loves kidnapping. No, they say a great deal of other things first. My God, how'd she get to be so beautiful? Is it surgery or is it natural?

Maybe it's Maybelline. I can assure you it isn't. How dare you? And my, what a long ass she has. I watched a video. I'm sorry. I know this. Not everybody likes a tangent,

but I just got to tell you. Tell us. I watched part of a video where a young woman got butt implants and she was crying because turns out having stuff shoved

into your butt cheeks Hurts? Yes. And then you're sitting on it. Well, no, you can't sit, I don't think. Not at first. I think your butt's out of commission for quite some time. You have to stand or lay constantly?

Well, I would assume, wouldn't you? I wouldn't. If I paid to have my butt pumped up, I'd be like, this thing's. Not crushing these things. No. Surely they're uncrushable. They'd be terrible. Find those in the freezer section right next to the uncrustables.

You don't want a crusty ass either. I think those two should pair up. What if we were sitting here and all of a sudden you heard a pop and then all of a sudden I was like leaning to one side. And I was like, no, Brandy, my ass is natural. I've just been doing a bunch of squats. Okay, but is it your current ass? Because I'd be like, Kristen, that's all the bigger you got. Brandy, my ass is natural. I've just been doing a bunch of squats. Okay, but is it your current ass? Because I'd be like, Kristen, that's all the bigger you got.

Brandy, I was going for like, you know, some people like a no makeup look. I wanted a no butt implant look. Why is your ass concave without those? I just wanted an incremental improvement. Nothing would be more embarrassing than someone knowing that I had butt implants.

So I'm just going to keep my current kind of not great ass. This is fine. Sure is. Sure is. Looks like you've gotten the smallest butt implants available on the market.

Anyway, should we move on? That's right. Let's move on. I wish you wouldn't bring up, hey, you did bring up my ass.

Oh, that was going to be a joke, but you did. I did bring up your ass. You're obsessed with me. You're right, I am. All right,

tell me a story. All right, shout outs. First, to Sarah McDermott for an article for the BBC and Bianco Capizorio. Bianco? Did I say Bianco?

I thought so. That's not a name. Bianca Capizorio and Layla Simodian for their article for IOL. And then also to Katie LaRue. Thank you, Katie. LaRue. Such a sexy language. Is that French?

French. It's definitely French. For her article in The Cut. Pronounce the coup. I don't think it is. the cut. Pronounce the coup. I don't think it is. International disclaimer. This goes out to all the hotties in South Africa.

Oh! Why is everyone in South Africa so hot? We don't know. Celeste Nurse was exhausted. It was April 30th, 1997. And she was at Grutcher Hospital. I guarantee you that's exactly how it's pronounced. Nobody bothered to look it up.

In Cape Town, South Africa, where she had just given birth via C-section three days earlier. The 18-year-old new mother was groggy from pain meds and was fighting to stay awake because she heard her baby girl, Zephanie, fussing in her bassinet next to her. Through blurry vision and heavy eyelids, Celeste saw a figure next to the bassinet. She recognized the uniform the figure was wearing, maroon pants and an oatmeal-colored top, and she sighed a breath of relief. It was a maternity ward nurse there to help her. Or steal her baby. The nurse shushed and soothed baby Zephanie and Celeste allowed herself to drift off to sleep.

Sometime later, Celeste was awoken by a nurse who seemed alarmed, even panicked, maybe. Where is your baby? Oh my God. The nurse asked and Celeste was like super confused and she's like, shouldn't you fucking know where my baby is? Yeah. Like, shouldn't the baby be right there? Right. She explained that she had seen a nurse holding her, but she was, you know, in that groggy state.

And she hadn't been able to get a good look at her because she was trying to keep her eyes open. And so she was unable to describe the nurse. She'd only seen, seen like a blurry figure. They searched the maternity ward, but there was no sign of baby Zephanie. Oh, my God. They then searched the hospital like top to bottom and found like almost no clues of any kind. There were little traces. There was like this tunnel

that led from the street to the maternity ward, which was like, it also connected to different parts of the hospital, but it was like a way for women in labor to quickly get to the maternity ward. And in there they found

like the like swaddle that Zephanie had been in they called it a baby nest but I'm guessing that's what that is wow it's funny because like I get what that means yes but that sounds so weird they found up like a they found like a zip-up baby garment. They found some kind of bag. And they found a pillow. And these were all just kind of abandoned along this tunnel. What they determined was that somebody had likely come into the maternity ward through that tunnel and had used that pillow to look as if they were pregnant. Oh, my God. And then at some point, they ditched the pillow and changed into a nurse's uniform and blended right in in the maternity ward.

One person had actually interacted with this nurse. One person had actually interacted with this nurse. She believed it was a nurse, but didn't recognize this person as anyone who she had seen in the ward previously. Which you wouldn't think anything of it. No. And the woman was holding her baby. And she was like, what are you doing? And she's like, oh, the baby was fussing, so I'm just sitting there.

And she's like, okay, give me my baby. Wow. And so. So by doing that oh my gosh yeah she kept her baby from being kidnapped oh my gosh yeah and this woman had seen her face and remembered it could describe it and she said the woman had been friendly but she'd you know been like oh I'll soothe my own baby. That's fine. Thank you. And the nurse had left and continued on to a different part of the maternity ward. So it was clear that this person had come to steal a child and any child they could get, it seemed.

child and any child they could get it seemed the police were called the entire hospital was searched and they found nothing no more clues only that stuff in the tunnel at that point that tunnel was just like an open access thing they closed it down right after this when they were like oh shit that might be a problem but that didn't change the outcome. Baby Zephanie was gone. Five days after Zephanie's birth, Celeste and her husband, Mornay, went home without their daughter. That would be so devastating. Yeah. What year was this again?

1997. Oh, shit. Okay. I was about to ask about the security cameras. Yeah. Never mind. They probably didn't have much of any security measures going on. Yeah, it was like black and white, grainy, totally useless.

A human being. Yes. Oh, there's a blurry figure, which is exactly what Celeste could tell them. Celeste later recalled, we came home to nothing. They had a nursery all prepared for Zephanie. It was decorated in blue, yellow, and white. There were diapers and bottles and lotions and powders and a crib, everything a baby would need. But the crib would remain empty.

For days after this, Celeste was in some sort of, like, denial where she just thought this was all going to be a dream and someone was going to show up and be like, ha ha, just kidding. Here's your baby. Yeah. But that didn't happen. At night, she said she would lay awake and she could hear like cats on the street crying and it sounded to like a baby. Oh, my gosh. In the beginning, there were a few leads that the police followed up on. The story of this stolen baby had gripped the nation.

The idea of a baby being stolen from the hospital right next to its mother was terrifying. Yeah. It seemed everyone had heard about the case and tips came in from all over. In one instance, the neighbors of a woman called and said that the woman, they had never seen her be pregnant

and all of a sudden she had a baby and so those neighbors called in and police followed up on it and the baby had a striking resemblance to Zephanie. It was light-skinned and had black hair, but it turned out to be a boy. Oh. So she kidnapped it from someone else.

I don't know. The case quickly went cold. There were just no more clues to follow up on. Oh. For like a decade. Oh! No! They made no further advances in this case.

The nurses continued to hold out hope. They believed that Zephanie was still alive and that they would bring her home. Through those years, through that decade when nothing was happening in the case, they put up posters, they handed out flyers, but just no advancements were being made in the case. Then one night, July 17th, 2009, it was like three o'clock in the morning and their phone rings and Mornay answered it and there was a woman on the line and she whispered i know about your daughter shut up what would you fucking do i might pass out yeah it's like 10 years later and nothing i think it's actually like what year is it it's 12 years

later like nothing has happened in your case you what year is it it's 12 years later like nothing has happened in your case you get a call out of nowhere in the middle of the night someone's on the line whispering i know about your daughter so okay i feel like if i were the mother of the child i'd be like oh my god i'd be filled with hope if i were the friend of the mother i'd be like all, someone is playing a very cruel prank on you. Yeah. So the person on the line demanded $500,000 Rand for information on Zephanie's whereabouts, which is the equivalent to about $35,000 American dollars. So they arranged that the money would be handed over at a

meeting at the KFC in town. Hey! This was like I said the first time they'd heard anything. It's a prank, right? In 12 years. They called the police and the police took over the whole thing. They wired

Mornay up. They gave him marked money. He went to the K thing. They wired Mornay up. They gave him like marked money. He went to the KFC. He sat there. And no one ever showed. Police were eventually able to trace the calls. And they traced back to this woman named Glenda Dubelle, who was Celeste's mother's neighbor. She was arrested and charged with extortion.

But I couldn't find how that case ended up. Fucking asshole. Right? Oh, man. I'm so mad. I know. Yes. How fucked up.

Seriously. Yeah. Oh, you know what I'll do? I'll torture these people that are already being tortured. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you know what I'll do? I'll torture these people that are already being tortured. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. But this hot take, I don't like that one.

But this didn't do anything to, like, hamper the nurses' belief that they would find Zephanie. They just could feel it. They knew she was out there. They knew she was alive. They knew she would come back to them someday. In 2010, 13 years after Zephanie had been kidnapped, Celeste and Mornay did an interview with the Independent Online or IOL. They talked about how they refused to give up hope and how the daughter that they'd only gotten to know for three days was still a huge part of their lives. They celebrated her birthday every year. They'd had three more children and they made sure that she was like a constant memory in their family. Like their other children knew about Zephanie

they celebrated her birthday there was pictures of her all around the home and Mornay went on to talk about how he believed their three other children could maybe be the key to finding Zephanie someday. He told the publication that their three other children all bore a strong family resemblance and that he believed that would mean that Zephanie would also look a lot like them. And what foreshadowing that would turn out to be. Oh my God, Brandi, I love this story.

I love it. Fast forward to January 2015. Okay, so he makes this statement in an interview in 2010. Okay. I think we'll find her. I think our kids are going to be the key to it.

They all look so much alike. Zephanie has to look just like them. Oh my God. Okay, fast forward. It's five years later. It's January 2015. It was the first day of term at Zwan Swick High School in Cape Town. Beautifully said. Again, exactly how it's pronounced. And Misha Solomon was in her final year. It was the first day of her last year of high school. It was super exciting.

It was the start of the school year and everyone was super jazzed. You get the idea. It was all buzzing. You know how exciting that is. Sure. Now, I don't know for sure that this is exactly how this next part happened. Okay. But this is how I'm picturing it.

All right. Miche was standing at her locker. Okay. She's got her locker open. She's looking in her little mirror. She's, you know, fixing her hair, fixing the wing on her eyeliner, reapplying her signature red lipstick. You know, just looking cool as fuck in her uniform. All of a sudden, a group of her friends run up to her and they're like,

holy shit, Michelle, have you seen the new girl? She looks exactly like you. Oh, my gosh. They were talking about Cassidy Nurse. Oh, my gosh. A new first year student who was like three or four years younger than Michelle. And when Michelle and Cassidy met later that day in the hall, Michelle says she felt an instant connection she couldn't explain. Oh, my God.

Later, Michelle would say, I almost felt like I knew her. It was so scary. I couldn't explain or understand why I was feeling like this. Oh, my God. Despite the age difference, Mache and Cassidy began spending a lot of time together. Mache would call Cassidy baby girl and Cassidy would call Miche big sis. They would like go to the bathroom together between classes and Miche would put lip gloss on Cassidy. She'd brush her hair, fix her up.

People joked all the time that they must be sisters because they looked so much alike. So did it go through Cassidy's head like, oh, my gosh, this could be my missing older sister? That's a great question. I would think so, but I don't know. Okay. Okay. I don't know much from Cassidy's point of view. All right.

And so when people would say that, they'd joke and be like, oh, maybe in another life. Like, oh, my God. Then one day, Miche and Cassidy took a selfie together. And they were showing it to their friends. And somebody asked Miche if she'd been adopted. And she was like, no. No, I know my parents. I look just like my dad. And they just laughed it off.

Then Miche and Cassidy went home and showed their family the pictures. Lavona Solomon was Miche's mother and she called her daughter Princess. Like that was her nickname. When she showed her the picture she was like, oh my gosh, you girls are so cute. When Michael, Michelle's father, looked at the picture, he said he recognized Cassidy.

That was the daughter of this man who owned an electrical store where he shopped sometimes. I don't really know what an electrical store is. I thought maybe it was like an electronics store. I was picturing radio show. Yeah. So they're like, oh, she's cute. That's your new friend. Like, oh.

And Michael was like, oh, yeah, I know her dad. Yeah. But when Cassidy showed her parents the picture, they had a very different reaction. Yeah, they were like, that's our daughter. Yeah. They were like in shock. They couldn't believe it. Mornay was like, when's her birthday?

What's her birthday? Yeah. And Cassidy was like, I don't know. I have no idea. And so like the next day, Cassidy came up to Michelle at school and she was like, hey, were you born April 30th, 1997, which is the day that Zephanie was kidnapped? And Miche was like, why? Have you been stalking me on Facebook? Like that was her initial reaction.

Oh, my God. And Cassidy's like, no, no, no. I just wanted to know when your birthday was. I guess trying to not seem creepy. Well, but when you guess exactly right. And she was like, yes, my birthday is April 30th, 1997. Oh, my God. I don't know how Cassidy reacted to that or what happened when she reported back to her parents that like, yeah, she says her birthday is the day that Zephanie was kidnapped.

But a couple weeks later, Miche was in like math class when she got called to the headmaster's office. She walked in and there were like two social workers sitting there and they sit her down and they tell her the story of a three day old baby named Zephanie Nurse who'd been abducted from Grutcher Hospital 17 years earlier and had never been found. Oh, my God. How do you how do you handle this information? And so Miche's like listening to them tell this story. And she's like, why are they telling me this? Like, this is super weird. And so the social workers go on to say, like, they have reason to believe that Miche is Zephanie. And she's like, no, no, no, that's not possible.

I wasn't born at Grootshire. I was born at Retreat Hospital, which is like 20 miles away from Grootshire. She's like, that's what my birth certificate says. And so the social workers, like they'd already looked into this. And so they're like, yes, we know that's what your birth certificate says, but there's no record of you being born at retreat hospital. Oh, my God. And so they're like, we need you to submit to a DNA test. And Miche says at that moment she was just in shock.

She didn't believe that that could be possible. She said, and this is a quote, I had so much belief in the mother who raised me. She would never lie to me, especially about who I am and where I come from. So my mind was made up that the DNA test wouldn't match. And so she agreed to the DNA test. Like, no problem. Absolutely. Do the DNA test.

I'm not who you think I am. Yeah. do the DNA test. I'm not who you think I am. Yeah. When the test results came back, like they rushed these results. This is 1997.

No, I'm sorry. She went missing in 1997. This is 2015. Yes. She's like they, so they rushed the test results because even in 2015, you don't get like typically next day results.

I don't know. Have you ever seen maury they rushed the results and they came back the following day and it was indisputable that miche solomon was zephanie nurse oh my god when they told Michelle, she said, I sat there in shock. My life was out of control. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine? No.

Just learning like your whole life. You're somebody else. Like your parents aren't your parents. I can understand not wanting to know that. Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. I would not have blamed her if she'd been like, you know what? I'm not going do a dna test

i refuse she probably couldn't refuse it's probably court ordered but i'm sure but still i i can understand wanting to just not even and then so she's already feeling so out of control like this whole my whole life has been a lie i don't know who i am i don't know who my parents are and then she was told that she could not return home. They put her in like a foster care, basically. And she would have to stay there for essentially three months. It would be three months until she was 18 years old and she could decide where she wanted to go. Wow.

Yeah. So, oh, hey, by the way, you were kidnapped as a child. You had no idea. Here, we're telling you this now. Also, your family that you've lived with your whole life. That you love. That you love. Yeah. You can't stay with them anymore. We're putting you in foster care. That would be devastating. To Michelle, though, the most devastating part was when they arrested her mother, LaVonna Solomon. It was the woman she had grown up knowing was her mother. Had she been a good mom, though?

She had been. Okay, so this is the weirdest part. Okay. This goes a whole direction that I didn't see it coming at all. I will stay tuned. Yes, keep your pants on. I'll try. When Livona was arrested, Miche said, it broke me. I needed her.

I needed to ask her why. What's going on? I was so overwhelmed that I belong to someone else. They allowed Miche to be present when Livona's husband, Michael, Miche's father or the man she believed to be her father, was questioned by police. She said that she just watched his face and she could just see like his eyes were all bloodshot from crying. He was scared. And she said, it was my father. My father is soft and he's gentle, but he's my rock. He's my hero. He's my daddy. He's the man. And here's this other man making him look like a small child.

And my father saying, no, no, I didn't do this. This is wrong. Miche is my daughter. How can she not be my daughter? It became very clear very quickly that Michael had no part in this. Yeah. And was completely unaware. Okay. But how?

Okay. Okay. So he said that Livona had been pregnant what the belief is is that lavona miscarried and then faked continuing her pregnancy and then about the time she should have delivered a child came home with a child. With a child. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So, LaVonna Solomon was in custody.

She was awaiting trial. She was charged with kidnapping and fraudulently claiming to be the mother of a child. They said this was like a violation of the Children's Act, which I could have Googled and I didn't bother to. The Children's Act. Not as successful as Sister Act, but still quite good in my opinion. So now you have Celeste and Mornay over here who are finding out that Zephanie is alive. Not only that, she's been living her entire life like less than a mile from them. Oh, my gosh.

There was actually this field right across from the nurse's house where Michelle used to go play all the time while her dad played soccer there. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So while they were mourning the loss of their child, she was right outside. She was literally right outside their door. This case is too damn much. It's crazy. So Miche's like, the rug has just been completely pulled out from under her.

And now they're like, we need to go reunite you with your family. And so she goes and has this dramatic moment with them where they're crying and hugging her and squeezing her and, you know, saying, we knew you were alive this whole time. We never stopped looking for you. But to her, it was just uncomfortable. She didn't know these people. Yeah. She said in the moment she was like, just go with it because it's a shame for these people. And they've been through a lot. But she went on to say, it's sad, but I felt nothing. Yeah. I didn't feel that I'd missed them. I had a mother and father.

This is such a, like a, this is the thing that I didn't expect is that she never really felt a connection to her biological parents. It's so, so I feel like this case has a lot of similarities to the case I did last week. Yeah. With the exception of this, like she was like, these aren't my parents. I have parents. I have great parents who loved me and treated me great my entire life. I don't know these people. Don't you think that's about what age the child is found? I completely. Yes. Yes. Because last week's case, wasn't she found when she was six? Yeah. And this girl, I mean, she's almost an adult. Yeah. And I think when you're at that age, you don't want your life to feel out of control.

You don't want change that you're not a part of. And, I mean, what could be a bigger change than this? Yeah. Oh. So the three months passed and Michelle was given the option to, you know, go where she wanted to go. And she chose to go back to the man she believed was her father her whole life. She went and lived with Michael. Yeah.

Not with Celeste and Mornay. And they were like devastated by that. Yeah. Which I think would be terrible. It would. It would. It would be so hard. But I don't blame Miche at all. Well, and, okay, this is, I would not be big enough to think this way. So I'm not saying this is how they should think of it.

to think this way so i'm not saying this is how they should think but don't you think like when when your child is stolen there's like a million ways that can go even worse yes and you're probably thinking there's a chance someone murdered my child or is doing something terrible with my child yeah doesn't this show that at least she loved the people she was with yeah so there's actually this interview clip with miche like after all of this is kind of resolved and everything and she talks about how the fact that Livona kidnapped her but then raised her and took such great care of her proves to her that she had

unconditional love for her and how badly yeah like the steps that she went to to have a child that's how badly she wanted a child and how badly she needed to love something is a very unpopular yeah opinion like there's a lot of stuff in the comment and she and i watched another interview with her after this and she's like people tore me up for that

statement but she's like that's what i believe i believe my mother loved me unconditionally and that what she did to get me proves that i don't know that's rough yeah so michelle goes and lives with michael the man that she has believed is her father and and he is a victim in this as well yeah Yeah, of course. He completely believed that Miche was his biological daughter for her whole life. Yeah. Livona Solomon's trial at the high court in Cape Town began in August of 2015. Both Miche and her biological parents were there throughout the entire trial listening to the testimony.

her biological parents were there throughout the entire trial listening to the testimony throughout the trial lavona solomon denied any wrongdoing i mean how can you deny it though here's her story she told the court that she had been trying to conceive a child for years and years and years she'd had a number of miscarriages and that she was desperate to adopt a child when she had like her last miscarriage and so she had been going to this clinic after she had her last miscarriage the one that she didn't tell anybody about it she'd been going to this clinic where she met this woman named sylvia who was going to give her fertility treatments. So she

gave this woman like 800 rand for these fertility treatments and she started giving her these tablets. That's really cheap. Yes, it's super, super cheap and that's something the prosecution points out. She's like, you thought this 800 rand was going to get you enough fertility treatments to have a baby? She's like, that doesn't make any sense.

And so she says she started taking these tablets that this woman, Sylvia, gave her and that this woman told her this would help her conceive. And so she's saying all this on the stand and the prosecutor's like, well, you'd already miscarried at this point. So without telling anybody that you'd ended your pregnancy, if you were able to conceive with these tablets, your pregnancy would be like four months behind. And she was like, yeah, I was going to figure out a way to to explain that. I hadn't yet, but I was going to figure it out. What the? Yeah. And so she says she says like this is the plan she was supposed to meet this woman sylvia at the train station to like get more pills but this time instead of showing up with tablets some other woman showed up and had a baby and she said this is from sylvia she says this belonged to a woman who didn't didn't want it you take it go to such and such hospital and call

sylvia she'll fill you in and so she said that she called sylvia and sylvia's like yep it's all everything's all set she's yours tell them at the hospital that you gave birth at home get the birth certificate everything's good and she just didn't question it okay she couldn't remember sylvia's last name though and like she once had a business card with sylvia's name on it and then just said like fertility specialist and had a phone number but she lost that business card yeah sure and also um there's no proof that Sylvia ever existed. No, but she was real. Very real to me. Very real to me.

So remember that woman who had seen the nurse at the maternity ward that day? I sure do. The only one who could remember her face? So she testified at the trial. 17 years later, they brought her in to do a photo lineup. Or, as they call it in South Africa, an identity parade.

Oh, I love it! I love it so much! Yes! God! An identity parade. Hell yeah. And 17 years later, she had pulled LaVonna Solomon. You're kidding me. Out of that identity parade.

Yeah. Are you sure one of the police officers didn't kind of fet them? I know. What are the chances? I don't know. I guess kidnapping keeps you young. I mean, she must have held up pretty well over the years. Maybe they used a picture of her from 17 years ago.

Maybe she had skin like you. And it didn't matter that she fell asleep with her makeup on. You act like I just accidentally fall asleep with my makeup on. No, I go to bed with my makeup on. Wait. Are you, like, one of those creepy ladies who, like, never takes off her makeup? No, no. Brandy.

Okay, first of all, when I wake up in the morning, there's just, like, eyeliner smeared out to here. And there's not a stitch of makeup left anywhere. This is not a 24-hour face. So, yeah, first thing I do in the morning is wash my face. Why are you looking at me like that? How often do you do this? Every day. I very, very rarely

wash my face before I go to bed. I hate you. All week long, ever since I found out that like, this is a thing you do. Every time I go through my many steps

that I take just to get this, just to get what you see here today, I think about you. I think about, oh, Brandi doesn't do any of this. And look at her. It's not that great. Yes, it is. I don't know.

If you're real close up there. You've got dewy, beautiful skin. Your mother has dewy, beautiful skin. I just have good genes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's a true story. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

It's a true story. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think it's great. Okay, we're in the middle of a trial, ma'am. We sure are. I sentence you. So, LaVona's like, I swear I didn't do anything wrong.

A woman gave me this baby I thought it was you know adoption cool everything's cool it's true I lied to my husband about it

I told I never told him about the miscarriage and I came home and I let him believe I let all of our family believe that this was our biological child that's that's the only wrong I've done

I know it's wrong to lie to my husband, but I did it this one time. And it was over something so minor. Yeah, exactly. And then they get the woman up there who's like, I saw her. She is the woman I saw in the maternity ward that day. Michael Solomon testified. Mm hmm. Michael Solomon testified.

And he said that since finding out Michelle was actually Zephanie, that he is a broken man. Yeah. He said on the stand, I'm devastated. I'm broken. I'm shocked. He insisted that Livona never told him of a miscarriage or led him to believe that this was not their child or that this was an adopted child. Right. He also said that he always believed that Miche looked like him and Livona.

He said that she had his complexion and Livona's forehead. That's so weird. Okay. Right. I mean, if that's what you're clinging to, it's not good. You know how you know your kid has been kidnapped? I'm sorry, that's so terrible. Well, the only feature is... She's got my forehead.

She's got her mother's elbows in my forehead. That's not a thing, right? So the prosecutor was like, I'm sorry, you never realized that her pregnancy wasn't progressing? Like, she really tries

to put this on. I thought this was kind of a dick move. Okay. Trying to put it on Michael. You never noticed that LaVonna's pregnancy wasn't continuing?

Like, he's like, I don't know. Her body was changing. We bought stuff for a baby. At one point, the prosecutor asked Livona about this, too. How did you get people to believe that you were still pregnant when you weren't? And she said, I was fat.

I love that. I know. I'm with you on this. Yeah. This prosecutor, if someone, like, assuming you're not, like, the teeniest, tiniest thing on earth. Yeah. You tell me you're pregnant. Exactly.

I'm not going to. Yeah. I'm not going to be like, lift your shirt. I'll be the bump. Yeah, that's weird. I mean, that's. Yeah. And as for her body not progressing, like I think a lot of dudes and well, and me too.

Like, I don't know what what's what's seven months supposed to look like versus six months. And supposed to look like like every woman looks different when they are pregnant. Yes. And supposed to look like, like every woman looks different when they are pregnant. Some don't even look pregnant at all. Why are you saying it like that? Because LaVonna wasn't even pregnant. Celeste and Mornay nurse both testified about you know what it was like the day that Zephanie was kidnapped and how their life had been completely changed by it I believe that this was just like I don't think this is that they do like a jury trial it was just like before the judge in 2016Vonna Solomon was sentenced to 10 years in jail for the kidnapping and for violating the Children's Act, which we all know exactly what that is.

Only 10 years. I know. Man. I know. I think it seems really low. Kidnapping does not have the same stiff penalties I thought it did. It does not. It same stiff penalties I thought it did. Does not. Makes it real tempting. Remember

the Australian case that I did on the bonus episode? Kidnapping is considered... Available at the $5 level on our Patreon. Kidnapping is largely in the rest of the world considered a weird American crime. Well, there's a lot of weird American

stuff. Turducken. That's right. Mass shootings. Kidnappings. What else we got here? That's right. So yeah, it doesn't carry the stiff penalties. The judge

criticized Livona when he sentenced her and said that I've listened to your lies for days. He dismissed her version of events. It really wasn't nice of him to criticize. I'm sorry. You're always so formal. I'm used to the judge admonishing. I've not

heard a criticize. And he also was like, would it have killed you to show a little remorse here? Right? Yeah. She was not remorseful at all. So the whole time she was like, I did nothing wrong. Miche has a strong opinion on this.

Okay. She believes that Livona kidnapped her. She completely believes that. But she also believes that Livona has completely convinced herself that her lies are the truth. Possibly, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, how do you live with yourself?

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, how do you live with yourself? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. She believes that Livona is like stuck in this psychological state where she has convinced herself that someone willingly gave her this baby and that she did not kidnap it. I hate this. Okay. I hate this okay after Livona was sentenced Miche said I felt like death was happening to me I was like how am I gonna cope how am I gonna get through life without the mother that I had every day in my life.

Miche was able to visit Livona shortly after she began serving her sentence. And she said of that visit, she said, the first visit was behind a window. And I saw my mother in the clothing that female prisoners wear, and it broke my heart. I cried and cried. And she asked her mother to tell her the truth. She said, I told her by knowing I'm not your blood that I actually belong to someone else and that you've robbed them of possibilities and changed my whole destiny. It hurts me. How am I supposed to believe your word when you've lied to me, saying that I am your child? You broke your trust with me. You're going to have to come clean if you want to have a relationship with me.

And she said that Livona replied to that saying, one day I will tell you. Oh. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Revised opinion. She's not living in some kind of weird state where she's convinced herself. If she's going to say that, then she's just spitting out bullshit. Yeah.

Yeah, I think the judge might have it right. She's just lying. The judge was right to criticize her. That's right. Miche says that she doesn't hold a grudge against Lavona, though. Dang, okay. She says, I believe she did it. She tells me she didn't do it, but I think she did.

And then she said on forgiving her, forgiving brings so much healing into your heart. Life must go on. She knows that I forgive her and she knows that I still love her. Pretty good kid. Mm hmm. So of her decision not to move in with her biological parents. So at the time that she learned who her biological parents were, they had like just gone through a divorce. She said, she had some harsh words.

Oh, no. Against her biological parents. She said, they were divorced. That family unit had been messed up. So I went with the obvious decision and the stablest decision to move back in with Michael. That was my safe space. That was my home. She has struggled to form a relationship with her biological family.

struggled to form a relationship with her biological family. And Miche says that at times she has even felt like she hated them for taking her mother away. Yeah. Oh, this is so complicated. It is. It is so complicated. I understand that. I do, too. I do, too.

And I think that would be fucking heartbreaking if you were celeste and mornay oh it'd be horrible yeah absolutely horrible yeah you were the victim of this horrible thing and then now you're the villain so so Michelle Solomon actually had to fight her own legal battle to be known as Michelle Solomon so initially when all of this happened her identity was like sealed for her protection yeah and Livona's identity was sealed because it would identify Miche. Jeez, yeah. And so she had to go to court and ask for it to be unsealed so that she could go by

the name that she'd gone by her entire life. She didn't know who Zephanie Nurse was. That's how she was identified in every story about this. This is how she was identified through the entire trial. Livona was not identified by name at all during the trial when all of this broke. She was just the kidnapper or the perpetrator. Yeah. And so she went to court and she was given permission to come out as Michelle solomon and she chose to keep that identity

wow and then once she came out like as miche solomon she released a book a biography she worked with this author joanne joelle to write this biography and to tell her story from her perspective. It's called Zephanie, Two Mothers, One Daughter. In it, she said a lot of things that were very difficult for her biological parents to hear. She said of Mornay, he's a lost cause lost cause oh i just don't love him like a dad i'm sorry if that's offensive or heartbreaking for him for me mornay simply fails as a father he's not there for his other kids either i honestly deeply wish that they could have had a father and mother like my parents. Oh, shit.

Oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah, this case is taking some turns. Yeah. Yeah, this is the direction that I did not see it going in. She went on to say that she had nothing in common with them. She said, I don't think I can get used to the smoking and the drinking. Oh.

I just can't connect. Celeste and Mornay don't feel like family to me. I can see the physical resemblance, especially with Mornay. I can see that they are my parents, but I don't feel it. Wow. The nurses did not appreciate this take and even tried to get the release of the book blocked initially but the book did come out and since then it seems that things have gotten better between michelle celeste and mornay well can only get better from here yeah they have a cordial

relationship and i think they see each other on some holidays and stuff like that it's I think they see each other on some holidays and stuff like that. Yeah, that sounds rough. And Celeste and Mornay have actually reconciled through all of this. They are back together. Wow. Yeah. as her parents and can't wait for Livona to be released from prison so they can have some real in-depth truthful conversations and heal this oh my okay where do I look up pictures um

yeah google Miche M-I-C-H-E. Solomon. Okay. Yep. Here we go. So that first picture, that's the picture that they showed their families and were like. Wow. They do look like. Oh, they look so much alike. They look so much alike there.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I can understand a lot of Miche's feelings. You lived your whole life thinking these people were your parents. That's who you are connected to. Yeah. I feel terrible for Celeste and Mornay, though. Like, they went through this terrible thing, and then somehow they became the villains in the story yeah i can't i can't imagine

any of this huh it's terrible for everybody yeah so part of it reminds me of this movie that came out i don't know late 90s probably it's michelle pfeiffer it's called the what lies beneath the deep end of the ocean oh okay okay when her son is like three years old he wanders off from the family and disappears michelle pfeiffer has two other kids like but she never gets over losing her son they never find him whatever and then like one day she's at home kid rings the doorbell and asks if he can mow the lawn for some money. And she's like, holy shit, it's my fucking kid. It's her missing son. And so she like takes a bunch of pictures of him, takes him to the investigators on the case.

And they're like, OK, let's look into it. And they look into it. And it turns out that the kid's mom has since died. But it is a woman who was at the same event where the kid went missing. And they find out that, yeah, it is. This is her kid. His dad didn't know anything about it. And so they, like, force him, force the kid to go with Michelle Pfeiffer's family, who lives, like, right around the corner. Every night he sneaks out of the house and goes back and sleeps at his dad's house. And like, it's this whole story

about how Michelle Fiverr's trying to make him feel like he belongs in the family. And spoiler alert, this movie's like 25 years old, so get over it. She ends up taking him and letting him go live with his dad because it was what was best for him. Do you want to hear something wild? Mm-hmm.

This weekend, I was planning to see that movie. What? Shut up! Because I spoiled it for you. I guess I'm going to have to find out. You're not going to have to now. I just told you the whole thing. Sounds really good.

That was upsetting. Yeah. Yeah, so when I started this case, I was like, oh, what? Another kidnapping case where it turns out the kid's totally fine? And I was like, this is very dark. I honestly, you've covered murders that were lighter than this. I know. Jeez.

You know what? I need a break from this. All right, you ready for this? First of all. Oh, what? Did you do like a tassel while you were in the bathroom? I did.

It looks fucking great. I did a tassel because sometimes when I air dry and I curl, you gotta switch it to the other side to get the... It looks amazing. Side to side,

as Ariana Grande says. Sometimes when you've banged too much, your hair gets a little flat. Really? I'd like to start out with a shout out to my mom. Who recommended this case to me? Seamless transition. Should I have paused more before I did that? seamless transition.

Should I have paused more before I did that? You should learn about this case on an episode of Antiques Roadshow. What? Yep. Okay, true story. I love Antiques Roadshow. I do too. Love it. Do too. Fucking

love it. I like lose my mind over it. When somebody like finds out that I will cry sometimes. Do you ever? Oh, okay. One time. Sorry. No.

We're like the only people who like 18s. I know. Everybody else is like, please stop talking about 18s. No, we can't. No. One time. I saw this one where this couple, they had these chairs and they were from like the American Revolution. And they'd been in her family for forever.

And, you know, they were like, I don't know, Thomas Jefferson farted in them or something. They were like, oh, and, you know, the best part is these were in such rough shape a few years ago. We went and got them restored. No. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. And so then the guy had to. Oh, idiots. Part is, these were in such rough shape a few years ago, we went and got them restored. No! Yeah. Oh, no! Yeah, and so then the guy had to... Oh, idiots!

Yeah. They were so happy about it. And so then the guy had to be like, okay... These would have been worth... Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But you restored them, and in the process, you scrubbed away like 45 grand.

I don't know what it was. But that clip from Antiques Roadshow sits with me in my heart. I watched, recently watched, just a clip. I didn't see the whole episode. But it was this guy who was like in the military. I can't remember what. But like saved up all of his money to buy this Rolex. I know that one!

Did you watch this? And he got the box and he had all the papers for it. And it ended up being worth like $750,000 or something. I think he was in the Air Force. He was in the Air Force. Oh my God.

You know what? He does. We're pretty cool. We're pretty cool. When you started talking, I was like, what are the chances that I will have seen this exact same one? Because I mean, they've got those clips on YouTube and they're just fun. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, so my mom was watching Antiques Roadshow, like you do, like a cool lady does. And she found out about this thing.

I don't want to give too much away. But she wasn't even telling it to me as like this would be good for the podcast. She was just telling you like an interesting. She was telling me an interesting story. And I was like, oh, my. Oh, my. And then she saw the math and the stuff above my head. And she was like, my God, my genius daughter.

It's like that meme. The woman who's trying to figure out when to wash her hair that's exactly that's half my life so big thank you to a washington post article by gillian brockwell not going to give you the title of it gives too much away also a fabulous article in The Independent by Ian Parker, reporting in The New York Times by Anthony DePalma, and a big shout out to Wikipedia. Oh. Okay, here we go. Do you know anything about the Dionne Quintuplets? I know nothing.

Are they Canadian? Yeah. Okay. What? I don't know. You know, there's just weird facts just floating around up there. I think that's the extent of what I know. Well, get ready to learn slightly more.

What would you do if you, like, prepared that whole big case? Yeah. And I came in, and I was like, the Dionne Quintuplets were Canadian. And then I had, like, one other fact about them. I was like, thanks! That would be hilarious. No, it wouldn't! You wouldn't be like, what the hell?

Kristen, I prepared an entire case and I wasn't apologetic or embarrassed or anything. And I cited all those sources to tell you two things. That'd be pretty funny. Can you keep it together? Are you, like, excited? Yeah.

You're grooving. Oh, so here's why. What? My favorite episodes are where I get to go first, and I get my case out of the way, and then I just get to enjoy yours. Really? And not have to think about having to do mine. Are you nervous to do yours? No, no. It's just, like, sometimes, like, you know, because I do so much of mine from memory. Are you nervous to do yours? No, no.

It's just like sometimes, you know, because I do so much of mine from memory, I feel like I just have like stuff just floating around in there. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's fair. Yeah. So I'm like, don't forget that thing. Don't forget this thing. It's bouncing around over here. How do you do it? I'm just like a free, I'm just free.

I just get to be free fallen. Just completely immersed in your case. How do you do the memorization thing? You know, it's just the way my brain works. It's like Everybody, she did some hand gestures that we're supposed to explain. It's just the way my

brain works. Like I'll read through articles and just like, you know, I picture it as if it's like kind of a dart board up there where a gets kind of, like, thrown into it and it's just hanging there. And then there's, like, another one over here and, like. Okay. You know. All right. Well, very good.

That's not at all how my mind works. It was May of 1934 on a farm in southern Ontario. Oh, quick warning. A lot of French words here. Ajar. It was ajar. Leave the door ajar for me. As I practice my French words.

The farm was just outside Corbeil. C-O-R-B-E-I-L. Yeah. Been there many times myself. And Elzira Dion was pregnant and in tremendous pain. She'd already had six children, so, you know, she knew the deal. You hug your husband at night, and then nine months later, a stork brings you a baby. We're all adults here.

We know that's what happens. But this pregnancy was her most challenging. She figured, I mean, she had to be having twins. But at seven months pregnant, she was in incredible pain. She was going into labor. But that's not the way it's supposed to work. The stork is supposed to come after nine months. So experts now believe that the stork was supposed to take bathroom breaks on his way to Canada, but he wore space diapers instead. And he got to her farmhouse way ahead of schedule. That's what they believe. Those space diapers, you can get somewhere

fast. Luckily, her doctor, Alan Roy Defoe, was there to help. And so were two midwives. And I mean, thank God they were all there because they helped Elzira through labor and

holy shit, what's this? She gave birth to a little girl and another and another and another and another oh my god she gave birth to five identical little girls she'd been pregnant with quintuplets it was nuts brandy that is nuts can you imagine you don't know you're gonna have fucking quintuplets all of a sudden five babies pop out of you what was the item on antiques roadshow a picture of the five girls no okay but isn't it weird that we've not, maybe my mom was catching a fresh ep, you know? That's probably it. I'm not going to tell you.

There's something floating around here. There's a reason I knew they were Canadian. I'm trying to connect to it. It's fine. Move on. We'll get to it. I bet you're going to figure it out. Okay.

This was a time before fertility treatments, before in vitro, but somehow. Before banging. There was still the stork bringing them. Wait, how'd you have London? But she'd given birth to quintuplets. Quintuplets, Brittany. Identical quintuplets, which I feel like is even rarer, right? Would you like to know the odds?

I would. I almost asked you what the odds were, and then I was like, that's rude, because she won't know. Oh, ye of little faith. The odds of naturally occurring identical quintuplets surviving to birth, 1 in 57 holy shit okay yeah here's a saying that people have when something like that happens okay better go buy a lottery ticket which i think is stupid they've already defied the odds so they're not gonna win the lottery now Anyway, that's all I have for you. Continue. I mean, if we're just throwing out sayings that we hate, you know what I don't like? What?

I don't like on a really hot day when you pass somebody and, you know, you wave and they go, hot enough for you? I never know what to say. Like, oh, yeah. It is pretty hot. It sure is. Wish it wasn't so hot. Because now my thighs are sweaty.

What, too much? Did I say too much? So, you know, it's one in 57 million. And people immediately were like, you should buy a lottery ticket. She was like, stop it. I was like, that's stupid because I've already defined the odds. What are the odds that I'd do it twice? They wrapped the babies in sheets and old napkins because, you know, they were a little unprepared for five babies.

But, oh, my God, they were little miracles. They were all so tiny and beautiful and perfect. They had dark hair and big dark eyes. and beautiful and perfect. They had dark hair and big dark eyes. The five little girls weighed a combined 13 pounds, 6 ounces. That's very little. Yeah, I mean, they were preemies.

Yeah. Poor Elzira went into shock. She had barely survived giving birth. But I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, who gives a shit about the mom? What about that doctor? Huh? Let's hear it for the boy. Let's give the boy a hand. Let's hear it for our five babies. Dr. Alan Defoe had just accomplished something major. He hadn't accomplished shit! Brandy, he had delivered quintuplets. Count them! One, two, three, four, five! Al Zyra

pushed him out of her womb! Yeah, well, he was there catching them right and left. Okay, great for you! That's the same as catching one baby. It's not like some big feat for him. Well, I would argue that it's really something to have, you know, five of them come at you at once and you got to keep them all alive. Anyway, amazing.

Pretty soon he left the farmhouse and he ran into the girl's uncle. And he was like, hey, big news. You don't have one new niece. You actually have five new nieces. Yep, that's right. Count them. One, two, three, four, five. Then he went to the post office in the next town, and he walked in, and he was like,

Hear ye, hear ye. I am Dr. Alan Roy Defoe, and I just delivered quintuplets. That's right. I couldn't have done it without me. Then he did a little spin move into a local store, and he grapevined over to the clerk and was like, Oh, hey, oh, my God, I'm so exhausted. spin move into a local store and he grapevined over to the clerk and was like oh hey oh my god i'm so exhausted oh what oh uh yeah i was just up all night delivering quintuplets yeah that's right count them one two three four five they said it couldn't happen but it happened and i did it

tell me what's your favorite one of my greatest accomplishments and the store clerk was like wow that is so amazing you are so fascinating and cool i bet if i asked you what your favorite donut is you wouldn't have a lame answer like glazed okay that's rude this script is full of personal attacks. Dr. Alan Roy Defoe was offended that anyone would even suggest such a boring answer to such an exciting question. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you just took a drink. I thought I'd already gotten past the rudeness and was free to take a drink, but apparently no.

No, you were not past the rudeness. Right smack dab in the middle of it. But before he could say anything, the store clerk was like, quintuplets, that's big news. You should go tell the North Bay Nugget, which is the name of a newspaper and not just something that rolled out of my pants.

But as it turned out, someone had already told the North Bay Nugget. Okay, it was the girl's uncle, and he was all cute about it. He, like, went over and he was like, hey, I've got a birth announcement, but I'm going to be announcing five babies at once, so can I get some kind of discount or do I have to pay five times? And they were like, oh, that's really big news. Sorry, I just spit because I was so excited. So the North Bay Nugget put the news out on the wire service,

and then they sent a reporter and a photographer to Elzira and her husband, Oliver's house. Keep in mind, Elzira had barely survived giving birth, and she had not invited anyone to her home. So she was still in bed, feeling like she'd just shoved five babies out of her vagina. But who cared about that? It was picture time! No, Elzira. Yes, yes, yes.

Picture time. She was in bed, laid out flat, and her five adorable, dark-haired little babies were all swaddled up next to her. And in that picture, the blanket is pulled up to her chin, and she's looking at the camera like she's doing her absolute best just to keep her eyes open. Oh my gosh. And thanks to that picture, soon the whole world was enthralled with little Yvonne, Annette, Cecile, Emily, and Marie. Or as they were collectively known, the Dionne quintuplets. People were so curious about these miracle babies. People came to the Dionne's farmhouse and peeked in the windows trying to catch a glimpse of the quintuplets.

You know how when you have a baby, people just, like, look in your windows? More people came. Then more. Soon, there were thousands of people gathering around the farmhouse. So many people showed up that they turned one of the family's fields into a parking lot. What? Which seems hella rude to farmers. Yes. Journalists came in from all over. They wanted interviews. They wanted pictures. And although that all sounds terrible, some of the journalists brought water-heated incubators and a lot of people

read about the quintuplets and felt compelled to help. So hospitals sent breast milk. The Red Cross donated a team of nurses. Yeah, she's only got the two nipples. Like humans are not set up for nursing five babies. You heard it here first. That's right. So they got this help and thank God because without those incubators and without all that help, the quintuplets probably would not have survived. Right. The whole thing was incredibly overwhelming for Elzira and Oliver. They'd been prepared for one child in two months, but now they had five brand spanking new premature babies in addition to the five children they already had. Yeah. They needed all the help they could get. But that help came at a cost. The public was so curious about their babies. They wanted pictures. They wanted to see them.

But Oliver and Elzira didn't like the idea of their babies being gawked at. But they were between a rock and a hard place. Oliver didn't want his babies to become some weird public commodity. But at the same time, he didn't know how the hell they were going to financially support quintuplets. And business people were making him all kinds of attractive offers for amounts of money he could have only dreamt of. Oliver didn't want to see his babies exploited, but he didn't see how they could possibly make it if they didn't accept some of these offers.

To make this even more complicated, this was all happening in the midst of the Great Depression. And Brandy, I can tell you don't understand because the name of that is confusing. But the truth is the Great Depression wasn't great at all. Wasn't even good. Or okay. It was bad. According to the historic record, it sucked major balls. That's the historic record. Yeah, that's what historians say. So Oliver was conflicted. So he went to his priest

for advice. He told the priest, hey, you know, these people are offering me all kinds of money for pictures of my babies and a chance to see my babies and for the likeness of my babies. What should I do? And the priest was like, hmm, hmm, hmm. Sounds like a real conundrum. Hey, here's an idea. How about I become your business manager? What? By the way, the idea is not coming from me.

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all bent down and whispered it to me. The Holy Trinity itself. Yeah, so if you're questioning this idea, think of who you're really questioning. So, with that, the priest became the Dion Quintuplets business manager. And I know that sounds like an abuse of power, but don't worry, because in the history of the Catholic Church, that's the worst thing a priest ever did to a child. You guys should see brandy's face i wish we had video you were like oh looked like a, yeah, it's a cartoon character.

So Oliver was still very conflicted, though. Within a few days, the promoters for the Chicago World's Fair came to him with an offer. In exchange for tens of thousands of dollars. Kills me. I don't know the exact figure. Damn it! of thousands of dollars kills me. I don't know the exact figure. Damn it. As soon as the girls were healthy enough, they'd be on display in the World's Fair for six months. Gee, what's wrong with that, Brandy? You seem disgusted. On display? Okay, apparently it was common during this time

period for people to go look at the incubator babies. Yeah. Have you seen Boardwalk Empire? No, I haven't. Okay. So we're actually watching Boardwalk Empire right now. So a lot of the show is on the boardwalk in Atlantic City. And there's a babies and incubators storefront, essentially.

And you walk up and you just walk. Look at all the tiny babies in their incubators. It's so weird. It's so weird. So weird. This was not that long ago. So strange. Yes. So it would be life changing money and it would only be for six months.

And it'd be great. People from all over the world would come to see the Dion Quintuplets, all in their little incubators. Oliver was hesitant, but his priest slash business manager, which is never a sentence I want to say again, and the doctor who delivered the babies, Dr. Alan Defoe, were both like, this is a great idea. You should sign the contract. And so Oliver did. And he instantly regretted it. Literally, like the next day, he tried to get out of this contract.

He'd made a mistake. He didn't want his babies to be on display for thousands of people to gawk at. He told the World's Fair people that he wanted out. But they were world-class assholes and told him no way. He tried to argue with them. He was like like but my wife didn't sign the contract surely you need both of our signatures for this to be valid no because she's a woman yeah what you said she your wife don't think so buddy sounds like she don't got a dick. Or as I call it, the instrument of authority. So, you know, they're like, yeah, nice try.

We're going to for sure take your babies. Yeah. But the key was they were going to do it as soon as the babies were healthy. But the health of the Dion Quintuplets was up in the air the babies were already so tiny but they began to lose weight and they did it thanks to beach bodies and now they have more energy than ever their confidence was through the roof and they all had thigh gaps brandy so i guess it turned out pretty great 21 day fix am i right and they all had thigh gaps, Brandy, so I guess it turned out pretty great. 21-day fix, am I right?

It's just about discipline, Brandy. So it turns out weight loss isn't always a good thing. In fact, when you're a premature baby, it's a really bad thing. Yeah, it's really, really bad. But don't worry, because Dr. Alan Roy Defoe, who, stop me if you've heard this, successfully delivered the babies and did a great job of it, was like, please. I'm not a hero. I just did what any good country doctor would have done.

I successfully delivered quintuplets. What? Is it hard? Oh wait, that does make me a hero? Well, I guess it's time for me to step in and save the day. So Dr. Alan Defoe stepped in and he sealed off a room in the farmhouse where he and the nurses would give the quintuplets round-the-clock care. He was very concerned about germs. The babies were already understandably weak, so he decided that the best thing for their health was to limit their contact with germy people. Germy people like the baby's parents. Oh, no.

So now, Elzira and Oliver weren't allowed to hold their babies. They weren't even allowed to touch their babies. They were only allowed to look at their babies, and even that was limited. They were beside themselves. They'd lost all control. All they wanted was to be with their children. But pretty soon the babies would be sent off to the Chicago World's Fair. Oliver and Elzira kept trying to get out of that contract,

but the fair promoters wouldn't budge. It was horrible. The only good thing was that anyone who heard about their plight was like, oh, my God, that's terrible. Those babies shouldn't be exploited. Mm-hmm. So the Ontario Attorney General's office stepped in. They came to Elzira and Oliver and they were like, look, you're in a real pickle with that contract.

You can't get out of it. And even if you did, how would you pay for the care of your quintuplets? We have a solution. Sign over custody of your quintuplets to the Red Cross for two years. Brandy, what's wrong with you? Don't worry. It's going to be great. No. If you do this, we'll build a fabulous hospital right across the street from your house, and your girls will get all the medical attention they need.

And the best part is that the Red Cross didn't sign a contract with the Chicago World's Fair, so the Red Cross isn't legally obligated to hand the girls over. Talk about a win-win situation. I don't think it is. What's wrong? I believe. Or I fear. Uh-huh.

There may be an ulterior motive here. Hmm. Hmm. Okay. I mean, I don't see why you're so worried that girls would be right across the street getting excellent free medical care, and they wouldn't become some weird public spectacle. That's awesome. Elzira and Oliver were like, you've got a deal. So they signed over custody of their daughters.

And sure enough, the Canadian government built this big, nice hospital right across the street. And the girls went over there and Elzira and Oliver could visit them whenever they wanted. Except not so much. Dr. Defoe made it even harder for the parents to see their daughters. Because again, he didn't want the girls exposed to germs. In effect, the girls were totally sealed off from the rest of the world. Elzira and Oliver weren't allowed to be alone with them. They weren't allowed to hold them.

Months passed. It was horrible. Yeah, that sounds horrible which i watched a bbc documentary on this and people were kind of making fun of the germ thing and i mean no you do have to be very careful but i mean can't you take precautions and let the girl's parents be around them yes yes yes elzira argued with the hospital staff but it was useless she didn't have the power to walk in and see her babies but on the bright side all this medical care was free and this arrangement was temporary. It was just for two years and soon enough those two years would be up and Elzira and Oliver would

need to care for and financially support their 10 children. So in February of 1935, the couple decided to make some extra money. They went to Chicago and did a bunch of stage appearances as parents of the world-famous babies. To Elzira and Oliver, this seemed like a good compromise. They were making money, and yeah, it was kind of at the expense of the babies, but they were the ones on display, not the babies. Seemed like a good solution. They were the ones on display, not the babies. Seemed like a good solution. But the Premier of Ontario, Mitchell Hepburn, didn't agree.

By the way, Premier of Ontario is not a title that I had to look up because I definitely already knew that the Premier of Ontario is, of course, the first minister of the crown. Obviously. Obviously. So he was like, you know what? I'm very concerned about the Dionne quintuplets. The girl's parents just went on this weird vaudeville trip to Chicago. I'm concerned that these babies are going to be exploited. So in March of 1935, a month after Elzira and Oliver's trip to Chicago, Mitchell took legal action. He proposed the Dionne Quintuplets Act.

The Dionne Quintuplets Act would make the girls wards of the crown until they were 18 years old. Oh, my gosh. See, I knew this was bad news. My stories are so often great news. Elzira and Oliver were flabbergasted. They spoke out to the media and they were like, we're good parents, please. We already have five children.

We're good parents to them. Let us prove that we'll be good parents to the quintuplets. We haven't even been given a chance. No, the quintuplets are a national treasure and we must protect them. Yeah, basically. Yeah. I'm not saying I agree, but I'm saying that's what their argument is. So most people didn't think that Elzira and Oliver deserved a chance to raise the quintuplets.

The couple had been painted in the media as, at best, like dumb country hicks. And at worst, money hungry parents who would go to Chicago to turn a profit off their children. Clearly, Oliver and Alzira didn't know what was best for the quintuplets. Becoming wards of the crown was the best solution for the babies. And plus, it's not like the girls' parents would lose all control. There would be a board of guardians, and on that board of guardians there'd be four people. Dr. Alan Defoe, of course, plus a respected judge and the minister of welfare and the girl's father, Oliver Dion. It was all for the best, Brandy.

So despite the pleas of the girl's parents, the bill passed and the Dion quintuplets became wards of the crown. This way, Dr. Alan Defoe and the nurses would make sure the quintuplets got excellent care and best of all the girls would not be exploited wards of the crown sounds like a very cool band name just if anyone out there starting up a band they're like why do we call ourselves wards of the crown not warts of the crown no No, not nearly as cool. So, you know, they wouldn't be exploited. Because how gross would that be to exploit children for profit?

The Canadian government would never do that. Yeah, I bet that's exactly what they did. Yeah, they did do that. Because, you see, hear me out, money, turns out, is great. Yeah. And there were a ton of people who wanted to see these kids. Would it really be so bad if the government made a little money off the Dion Quintuplets? No, it wouldn't be so bad.

That's the answer to the question. So they did it up. Bad for who? Yes, it'd be bad for the Quintuplets. That'd be fine. Okay. Brandy.'ll be fine. Okay. Brandy, they did it up big. They made the Chicago World's Fair look like old Shawnee days. Which is a joke that's only funny to local people.

Soon, the hospital became more like a compound. There were housekeepers and nurses and security guards and a seven-foot-tall fence with barbed wire around it. Thousands of tourists showed up every day to get a look at the Dionne quintuplets. And it was easy to get a look at the kids because the compound had an observation gallery where people could watch the girls play behind one-way screens. There was this outdoor playground where the girls played at specific times of day and people could go watch them play. Yeah, that's not creepy as fuck. Yeah, what could be wrong with that? In the compound, the girls had a highly regimented schedule.

In the compound, the girls had a highly regimented schedule. They'd wake up, put on adorable matching outfits, have their hair curled, and have a daily inspection with Dr. Defoe. Everything about them, what they ate, how much they weighed, when they pooped, was meticulously logged for science. It was a little weird because all the girls were healthy, but they were confined to this hospital. But everything they did became data, which was recorded and collected by the staff. If one of the girls got mad, that was recorded. If she was fearful, that was recorded. Everything was logged. Wow. Would you like to hear an example? Yeah, obviously.

Okay. Non-compliance episode. Time, 445. Activity, play. Description of request. To stay in playroom. Description of child's behavior. Ran out.

Cried for one minute. Adult treatment. Isolated five minutes. Brought back. Result. Cooperation. Oh my gosh. What the hell, right? Seriously.

Yeah. Wow. It was a strange way to grow up. The staff had been instructed not to show affection to the girls, and the girls' parents and their other siblings were rarely able to visit. Well, I should say rarely allowed to visit. So they were raised in this weird environment where one of the girls later said she learned the word doctor before she ever said the word mother.

Oh, that makes me so sad. You ready for more creepy stuff? Yeah. All of the items in the compound were like just so. Everything each girl owned had a specific color and a symbol on it to represent her. Everything that belonged to Annette was red and had a maple leaf on it. Everything that belonged to Cecile was green and had a turkey on it. Everything that belonged to Emily was white and had a tulip on it. Everything that belonged to Marie was blue and had a teddy bear on it. Okay, how come someone has to be the fucking turkey when another person gets to be a tulip? It's like, I'm dummies! That's your issue with this?

Hey, I was fine with the zoo of kids. I was fine with locking up perfectly healthy kids. But not with giving them a turkey symbol when her sister's got a perfectly good tulip. I just think those seem like very different symbols. Well, yeah, you want them to be a little different. Yeah. So the stated purpose of making the Dion Quinteplet's wards of the crown

had been to protect them from exploitation. But their new living arrangement was basically a zoo. Yeah. About 3,000 tourists showed up every day to watch the girls Yeah. Holy shit. They were so beautiful. They were just cute as buttons. They had big round faces and big brown eyes and gorgeous dark brown hair. And they always had on pretty matching dresses. And their hair was in perfect sausage curls. What do you call those? I call them sausage curls.

Sausage curls? Yeah, when they looked like links of sausage. You know those old-fashioned like Shirley Temple curlets? Okay, that's much better. Oh, what a thrill. Soon the tourist attraction got a nickname, Quintland. Oh. While people were at Quintland, they could go up to a bin full of rocks and they could take one for free.

And Brandy, I know what you're thinking. Why did they want a stupid old rock? But they weren't stupid old rocks. They were fertility rocks. They had the magical powers of fertility. Because when you shoved them up your hoo-ha, it transformed into super sperm and you got pregnant right on the spot. That's not true. That's not true.

But, I mean, people love these rocks. They had to put out a new bin every single day because people were just grabbing up these rocks. Was there a gift shop or is this the extent of the souvenirs? Was there a gift shop? Hang on to your hat. You know I love a gift shop. Okay, we've got things to discuss. All right, here we go.

So, you know, some people might be listening to this story and getting a little concerned. But don't worry. The government didn't charge anyone to come see the Dion quintuplets. So obviously, if admittance to the child zoo was free, then they weren't being exploited. Nothing weird was going on at all. Yeah. The fertility rocks, free. Admittance to the zoo, free.

The fertility rocks, free. Admittance to the zoo, free. But even though it was free to see the quintuplets, the Dion quintuplets were still a big business. They made a lot of people very rich. Within a year, Quintland became a bigger tourist attraction than Niagara Falls. Wow. Right? You ever been to Niagara Falls. Wow. Right? You ever been to Niagara Falls?

I have. I want to go so bad and I want to go on the Maiden of the Mist and be in the falls. Do you want to get married on it like in the office?

No. Okay. I'm sorry for even suggesting it. No, that would be kind of cool actually. We're watching The Office right now. I'm sorry, this is a tangent on a tangent.

David is forcing me to watch The Office. And every episode, I cringe. Yeah, it's a very cringey show. It's not your type of show. I like the show. There are aspects of it that I like, I find very funny. But then there are every single episode I'm like, mm, can't handle funny. But then there are every single episode I'm like, hmm, can't

handle that. Hear me out. Have you thought about getting a blow-up doll with your features and you just put it next to David? And then when it's office watch in time, you just, you know, set her out. That's right. What if I told you we already have one?

That's right. What if I told you we already have one? That's disgusting. David doesn't know about it. It's just for you to make love to yourself. Anyway, Brandy. This is a bigger tourist attraction than Niagara Falls. I'm sorry, I was just thinking like, what if you went and got the blow-up doll, but then like

it backfired because you like sent her over to do the podcast and I just had to carry this whole thing. Government officials raised the gasoline tax in Quintland to take advantage of all the tourists who showed up. And Oliver, even though he rarely got to see his daughters, did at least run a souvenir shop.

So he got to see pictures of his kids all day and sell those pictures to tourists. And he sold his autograph for 25 cents apiece. And I hate that. Get ready to hate this even more so you know there was all this fascination with them so oliver had to be careful about going into public restrooms because people would follow him in there to try to get a look at his penis because yeah i mean he's the guy who i know i know what fucking weirdest thing ever yes i don't think there's probably anything particularly striking about his penis well you would have to follow him into a public restroom to find out for sure what okay that's the weirdest part of this For sure. What?

That's the weirdest part of this story. I have never heard a story about somebody having multiples and be like, I wonder what that guy's dick looks like. It's the weirdest thing ever. Do you think he's got multiple holes? What the fuck? He's got a super squirter. No, I mean, it's the craziest thing ever. I'm sure he's a normal looking guy. His dick has three holes Just like everyone else

What if He was about to go into a bathroom And he was like people leave me alone I've got three holes in my dick Just like every other guy Nothing to see here. Just a two foot long hose with three holes in it.

Oh my god. My stomach hurts. Oh. so for the locals so for the locals the dion quintuplets Dionne Quintum, let's move on. Oh, no. Oh, my God. You know, it's been a while since we had, like, a total break. Oh, my God.

Poor Oliver. He's supposed to be in, like, a fucking shower head, and the guy's just sitting next to him, and he's supposed to be, it's like a fucking showerhead. And the guy's just sitting next to him. He's like, I knew it! Oh my God. So for the locals, the Dionne quintuplets provided a big opportunity for families who were struggling in the Depression.

Suddenly, are you trying so hard to be serious? I'm fine. Suddenly, they could rent out rooms to tourists. Restaurants and motels sprang up near Quintland. Everything was quintified. Are you all right? Stop talking to me. I'm fine.

Stop. Don't look at me. Sorry. I just, every time I looked up, you looked like you were going to burst. I'm a professional. Yes. That's the way I describe this podcast. Just two pros

telling stories. We did get a review of someone's word. I'm a professional. I have to agree. That's accurate. Were they expecting professionals? I believe so.

That had to be a devastating blow. Oh. Like I said, everything was quintified. People stayed in quint cabins. Oh. Which I'm devastated to tell you was spelled K-W-I-N-T-K-A-B. I know. Why do people do the cutesy K stuff?

Let the KKK have it. You know, that's what I always say. That's exactly what we're all saying here. That's right. There was so much money to be made off these kids. People sold Dion Quintuplet dolls and plates and commemorative plaques and books and postcards. They sold handkerchiefs and fans. They sold bumper stickers that read,

We have seen the Dion Quintuplets. Which is the most hilariously lame. That is so lame! We have seen the Dion Quintuplets. Okay, so this is what my mom saw on Antiques Roadshow. This lady brought in this set of five dolls. I have to confess to you, I went on the eBay. And, you know, you can buy these dolls.

But here's the thing. The only thing creepier than one old doll is five old dolls. But I did see like a fan, a souvenir fan, $17. Did you buy it? No, because I was like, it's a beat-up old fan for $17. But I do want it. Yeah. I might.

Yeah. Probably shouldn't talk about it on the podcast. The price is going way up. Yeah. Now it's $22. This is why I know they're Canadian. What do you mean? Because I used to know someone who was a doll collector.

Really? A very serious doll collector, yes. So anything you could fit five little faces on, they sold. The midwives who had helped deliver the babies, the quintuplets, were a hot commodity. They worked at a bunch of souvenir shops. Dr. Alan Defoe became a celebrity. He became internationally known for his role in bringing the Dion quintuplets into the world. And boy, did he cash in. He got big speaking fees every time he

told his story. He wrote some column for mothers. It was like the quintuplets and your child, which is like, how does that have anything to do with anything? Right. Anyway, he did endorsement deals with Quaker Oats and really healthy stuff like Karo corn syrup. He helped arrange endorsement deals for the girls, too. They were in ads for Heinz ketchup, Lifesavers, and Lysol, and palm olive soap, ice cream, and interestingly, typewriters. What? Why? I would love to see that adwriters. What? What?

I would love to see that ad. Yeah. What? This baby really helped me buy this typewriter. The Dionne quintuplets were a sensation. Between 1936 and 1943, nearly 3 million people showed up to see the little girls in their natural habitat. Oh my gosh. Is this not the wildest thing? Yes.

Is this crazy? Yes. Quintland was a must-see. Clark Gable came to see the girls. So did Jimmy Stewart and Betty Davis. Amelia Earhart showed up just a few weeks before she crashed her plane on an island but secretly survived

and lived well into her 90s. That's my theory. Is that your theory? I want that to be the theory. But not everyone had the time or the money to go to Quintland. Not to worry. Quintland could come to them.

On the silver screen, the girls starred in a variety of feel-good movies. I think we all remember the 1936 classic, The Country Doctor. How about the 1936 hit, Reunion? Oh, but neither of those could compare to 1938's Five of a Kind, which I have on VHS, Blu-ray, and DVD. The girls were also the subject of the 1939 documentary Five Times Five, which, as a mathematician, I feel compelled to point out, doesn't really add up. No! Which, as a mathematician, I feel compelled to point out, doesn't really add up. No! Most of the movies, particularly the first two, really played up the role of Dr. Alan Defoe.

He was universally admired. He was a hero. He'd been amazing. But was he amazing? No! I told you that a long time ago! Yes, he was! How dare you suggest otherwise? Nothing nefarious was going on. Yes, a lot of money was being made off the girls, but all the money went to the girls.

Did it? Yes, don't worry. It went into a trust fund so that one day when the girls were adults, they'd be taken care of. They never have to worry about money. Quit that. The money would all be there. So just stop thinking about money. Quit that. The money would all be there. So just stop thinking about it. The years passed.

And the girls had no way of knowing that they were being raised in a really strange way. But they weren't stupid. And even though the staff always told the tourists and everybody that, oh, it's like a one-way screen. The girls don't even know they're being observed.

The girls, of course, knew that thousands of people were watching them. They were literally being confined and observed. They were only allowed to leave the compound a handful of times over the course of their lives. And when they did leave, it was for like work stuff. It was to meet the king and queen. By the way, they found Elizabeth a little stuffy. Oh, they did enjoy Philip. Okay. It was always for work, always some kind of promotion. Even their birthdays and holidays were promotional activities. They posed for pictures in front of cakes, but they weren't allowed to eat cake because they

weren't allowed to have any sugar. And this whole time, they rarely got to see their actual family. This was torture for Elzira and Oliver. They were just right across the street, but they might as well have been worlds away. Elzira didn't even get to hold any of the babies until they were two years old. Oh, my gosh. Two-year-olds don't like to be held. They don't? No.

I mean, like, she missed, like, the part where they're all snuggly, and they just want you to love on them and hold them. Listen, I'm in a very tough point in London's life where she doesn't like me to snuggle her to bed anymore. And it's been very difficult. It's been very difficult to respect her wishes, isn't it? It is.

You're like, are you sure? Come here. Yeah, my little baby is is a little independent personality on her and she just likes to put herself to sleep for her whole life I have rocked her to sleep every night and then now she just wants to be like

put in her little bed and just go to sleep by herself it's fine I'm fine it's fine does I'm fine. It's fine. Does she sing that song? Misindependent. When did this start happening? It's been a couple weeks now.

And I'm doing great. She's doing great with it. It's totally fine. Don't even want to snuggle her. She's actually teething right now, so she has let me snuggle her other times right now, so that's pretty great. I'm so glad your daughter's in pain. So she... At one point, Oliver just wanted a picture of his girls.

So he went up maybe to the observation window or whatever and took a picture of them. And he was threatened with legal action. He did not have the legal right to take a photo of his children. Oh, my gosh. This just killed Oliver and Elzira. They wanted their children back. The government had stolen their babies. And now, well, not really stolen.

Well, kind of stolen. Yeah, okay. And now the quintuplets. Taking them under false pretenses. Yeah. And now the quintuplets were almost 10 years old. And they barely even knew them. Oliver had been given a seat on the board of guardians for the compound,

but after a while he just stopped going to meetings. He didn't see the point. When things came to a vote, he was always outnumbered by the other board members. So he didn't get basically my opinion. And I think anyone would see like he was given this symbolic role with no actual power, no say whatsoever he was just the guy who sold his autograph to tourists and got followed into bathrooms

showerhead dick brandy this man has been through enough the rumors about his penis have been greatly exaggerated but oliver and elzira refused to give up the quintuplets without a fight they told anyone who would listen that they wanted their children back they wanted their family under one roof it took years but finally people listened. But did they listen? Was it because they realized it was fucked up that these children had been taken from their parents? Or was it because attendance at Quintland was declining?

Yeah, it's not as exciting anymore when they're like... Ten. Yeah. Yeah, so we were in the midst of World War II, and there were rations on gas, people weren't going on vacation, plus the quintuplets were getting older, they weren't as cute anymore. Whatever the reason, in 1943, Oliver and Elzira finally got their wish. The Dion quintuplets were no longer wards of the crown. The trust fund paid for a beautiful 19-bedroom mansion for the whole family, still standing to this day.

Oh, we can look it all up at the end. Okay. And I don't mean to make you jealous, but the house had hot water and electricity. Ooh, it's cutting edge. Finally, they could all be together. One big happy family. But they weren't one big happy family. For the first time in their lives, the Quintuplets had separate bedrooms.

They didn't like it. It felt so weird. And the other siblings didn't like them. Yeah. They resented the quintuplets. They were so famous and special, but they'd ruined the lives of the rest of the family. The quintuplets didn't know how to interact with their new siblings. These siblings had freedom. They could go to a real school. They could wear whatever they wanted. They lived a normal life. No one wear whatever they wanted. They lived a normal life. No one had been like recording all their bowel movements. Can you imagine? No! One

of these ladies' letters said, like, if I wanted to, I could go find out how many poops I took in 1937. How weird is that? That's so weird. That's a direct quote. Plus, even though Quintland was shut down, the Quintuplets were still treated as a public commodity. Everything about them was all of our business. When the girls were 14, each of their weights was published in the newspaper. Yeah. What? Yeah. Wow. Which, fun fact, if I were president, that journalist would be shot on the spot. They were forced to dress exactly the same, way past the point of it being cute.

They were allowed to go to school, but it was a special school back in their old quintland nursery and it was super small and there were only like 10 other outside students and they'd all been like selected for this role it was hard going from the only life they'd ever known to this new one with parents and new siblings. And the worst part was everyone resented them, including Oliver and Elzira. Oliver and Elzira constantly lectured the quintuplets on how much trouble they brought on the family. Elzira physically and emotionally abused the girls. Decades later, three of the surviving sisters said that Oliver sexually abused them. Oh, my gosh. It was a miserable existence.

As the girls grew into young women, they became more and more sick of the limelight, sick of the exploitation, and sick of being abused. Okay, get this. Ironically, they said the nine years that they spent in isolation, you know, basically being part of a zoo, were the happiest, least complicated years of their lives. Holy shit. Yvonne said, we didn't know at that time that the way of life in which we were raised wasn't good for us. Yeah.

Caesar salad. And they're delicious, but you can't have them all the time. Your breath will stink take it from me I love Caesar salad you know what I did the other day had a Caesar salad put a mask on

boy that's a punishment that is rough I think I've told you that like if I have a Caesar salad for lunch and I hug Norman Norm smells it on you yeah

sniff it out hope you're not trying to have any secret seizures. I know what you've been up to. I smell the Caesar salad all over you. So Emily had been having seizures since she was 15. And the family had been very private about her seizures. I didn't realize this, but I guess there was a big stigma about epilepsy, so they just didn't tell people. I didn't know there was a stigma about it either.

I didn't either. Well, we're here to learn about gigantic penises. Did you know? I don't want to make you spit. You know what I'd be interested to know what somebody did a listen through the whole podcast and count out how many times we say penis okay one of my favorite things which i know is douchey because it's like our own podcast but the out of context um instagram account out of context lgtc you really figure out how filthy we are like my god do these two ever tell a true crime story

okay so anyway she'd been having seizures seizures ohizures. Oh, my God. You sound eloquent. Thank you. That's why we teamed up for a podcast. Two months after she became a nun, Emily died when she was 20 years old from a seizure. They said that she had been taking a nap and somebody was supposed to watch her and she's on her pillow. Oh, gosh. Sorry, I don't know why I went into all the detail.

It's so sad. That is really sad. The remaining four sisters were beside themselves with grief. But even that was a spectacle. The four sisters had to pose for photos next to Emily's casket for the press. Holy shit. But as Cecile later put it, Emily's death gave the rest of them a sort of release.

All of a sudden, people were much less interested in the Dion quintuplets. Yeah. Because there were only four of them. They weren't a full set anymore. Yeah. Yeah. How gross is that? Yeah.

So the remaining four sisters moved to Montreal. Yvonne and Cecile went to nursing school, and Marie and Annette roomed together. And about a year after Emily died, the remaining four sisters got their share of the money that they'd spent their whole childhoods earning. How much was it? Each of the sisters received about $170,000, which was a lot of money, but not when you considered that they'd been a bigger tourist attraction than Niagara Falls. Yeah.

Their split of the money seemed suspicious Niagara Falls. Yeah. Their split of the money seemed suspiciously low. Yeah. One source said that the Dionne Quintuplets had brought Ontario more than $50 million in tourist revenue. Another source said $500 million. Has to be $50, right? I would say $50 million. I think that seems right.

Dr. Defoe. Based on nothing. Randy's a tourism expert. Dr. Defoe had become very rich off the girls. A bunch of locals had made plenty of money selling souvenirs and renting rooms. Shouldn't the girls be set for life? Yeah. Yeah, they should be getting millions. Eh, well, maybe.

Guess not. Marie, Annette, and Cecile all got married and had kids, but they all later divorced. Yvonne finished nursing school and later became a librarian. Years went by and the women tried their best to live normal lives. In 1970, Marie had just separated from her husband and she'd placed her children in foster care. And her sisters became worried because they hadn't heard from her for a few days. Okay, one source, actually a couple sources said she died from a brain clot. Another one said that her body was found next to a bunch of bottles of medication.

So now there were three. The three remaining sisters became even more private. They weren't interested in media interviews. They didn't want any publicity. But their dad sure did. One year, he called a press conference to announce that none of his daughters had sent him a Christmas card. What? And that story made international news.

Holy shit. He regularly communicated with them through the newspapers. Wow. When he died in 1979, the three women attended his funeral and saw their mother for the first time in a long time. And she told them that they had killed their father. Holy shit. Yeah, she died a few years later. Overall, the three sisters felt most at ease with each other.

So in the 1990s, Annette, Cecile, and Yvonne all moved in together. But they struggled to pay their bills. Growing up, they'd always been told that the trust fund would, you know, just set them up for life. They would never have to worry about money. So they'd never learned about money. Cecile said that when they were finally forced to deal with money, they didn't even know basic shit. They couldn't tell the difference between a quarter and a nickel. Oh, my gosh. Now they were getting older older and they needed money. So in their 60s, the remaining sisters worked with an author to write a book about their life story. And in that book, they

didn't hold back. For the first time, they told the story of their father sexually abusing them. And their other siblings, who it appears they never really bonded with, all said that the sisters were wrong. Wow. Yeah, which how can you say that? Yeah. The women were in a bad place. They'd been exploited their whole lives and they couldn't support themselves. Annette's adult son paid the mortgage on the house where the three sisters lived in Montreal, and the women paid their bills with their pensions. But Cecile's adult son, whose name is Bertrand Langelis, little kid, was just like flabbergasted by this whole thing. He was like, how is this possible? You all made so much money as kids. Where did it all go?

Someone owes you money. So Bertrand put on his trench coat and monocle and began to investigate. He publicly demanded that the government open up the records from the 1930s and 40s. They'd claimed all the money had gone into a trust fund, so prove it. Eventually, the government was forced to comply. And in doing so, they revealed that the trust fund had been grossly misused. A ton of the money had gone to pay for Quintland. It paid for every aspect of the hospital where the girls lived.

Their money was even used to build bathrooms for tourists. It paid the water bill. It paid for toilet paper for the tourists. Like, anytime doctors would come in from out of town or psychologists, like, the girls would basically pay for fancy dinners out for these people. Oh, my gosh. Ridiculous. One estimate said that about a million dollars had gone missing from the trust fund, which in the 30s and 40s. Yeah, it's a shit ton of money. Uh-huh.

Bertrand was like, we have to do something. And the three sisters agreed. For the first time in decades, they spoke to the press and they didn't hold back. They were like, this is what our lives were like. This is what was done to us.

The Canadian government owes us money. We want to get back the money we are owed. And the Ontario government was like, no, thank you. We don't owe you anything.

Goodbye. But, you know, that was kind of a bad look. Yeah. So then Premier Mike Harris, which is a title I know all about, Mike Harris was like, hey, the government obviously doesn't have any legal responsibility to these ladies. But, you know, we're good people. We're charitable. How about this? Let's make a deal.

You three will get $1,400 a month for the rest of your lives if you agree to drop all legal claims to future compensation. Obviously, we don't owe you anything, but, you know, hey, we want to be nice. Nice guys. Mike told the press, There are lots of people who would like money. Lots of investments that have gone wrong. We decided instead of playing hardball to give a compassionate, caring response. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. What the hell? Wow. Lots of people would like money. Yeah. Wow. The sisters weren't very touched by the gesture. Instead, Cecile said, we want justice, not charity.

People were outraged by the government's cold response to these three women. So a week later in March of 1998, the government of Ontario was like, oops, fudge stripes. Did we say we didn't owe them anything? We were just kidding. We take it all back. They announced that they'd offered the 63-year-old sisters a $2.8 million settlement, and they'd offered to open an inquiry into the nine and a half years that they'd been wards of the crown as children. Ontario's attorney general said, this is clearly a case where our government, and probably I in particular, allowed process and legal technicalities to get in the way of people and compassion. The premier made it very clear that this was not our finest hour. Wow. I know. Wow. I was very impressed by that.

Yeah. Is that a Canadian thing? American politicians don't do the I'm sorry thing. Sorry. Mm hmm. Yeah. So an article from that time says that the women accepted the settlement. But a later article from The Washington Post said that the settlement was four million

dollars. Let's hope it was 11 million. I have to tell you something what because nothing in this story is good you should know that each sister got a share of the money but cecile's adult son who'd help them uncover all the corruption and fight for what was rightfully theirs took all his mom's newfound money and disappeared with it. And she had no money. So she became a ward of the state again and lived in a state run nursing home.

Oh, my gosh. Yep. Yep. Yvonne died in 2001 and Annette and Cecile are still living. And OK, I want to close with something that I thought was really touching. It's an open letter that Yvonne, Cecile and Annette wrote in 1997. So a couple in Des Moines, Iowa, had just had septuplets. The Makahe septuplets were an immediate sensation.

They were the world's first known set of surviving septuplets. The Makahe septuplets were an immediate sensation. They were the world's first known set of surviving septuplets. How thrilling. As soon as that news broke, the three remaining Dionne quintuplets wrote this letter to the parents of the newborn babies. Here's what it says. Dear Bobby and Kenny, if we emerge momentarily from the privacy we have sought all of our adult lives, it is only to send a message to the Makai family. We three would like you to know we feel a natural affinity and tenderness for your children. We hope your children receive more respect than we did. Their fate should be no different from that of other children. Multiple births should not be

confused with entertainment, nor should they be an opportunity to sell products. Our lives have been ruined by the exploitation we suffered at the hands of the Ontario government, our place of birth. We were displayed as a curiosity three times a day for millions of tourists. To this day, we receive letters from all over the world. To all those who have expressed their support in light of the abuse we have endured, we say thank you. And to those who would seek to exploit the growing fame of these children, we say beware. We sincerely hope a lesson will be learned from examining how our lives were forever altered by our childhood experience. If this letter changes the course of events for these newborns, then perhaps our lives will have served a greater purpose. Wow.

And that's the story of the Dion quintuplets. I'm Googling them now. They're so cute. Couldn't you just go watch them play? No. From a hidey hole? Yeah, I mean, they're adorable. Yeah.

Wow. I just... It was so interesting i am fascinated by these stories that like totally captured the attention of this corner of the world and now they're completely forgotten about and people would be disgusted by today. Yeah. Like one of the articles I read talked about how, you know, at the time the doctor was seen as just this hero. And no one would question this doctor. And now you look back and you're like, oh, my God. Yeah.

Gross. Dude. Have you seen the picture of Elzira with the... Yes, in the bed, yes. Poor woman. Oh, my God. She was like, I just popped five babies out of my body. Yeah, leave me alone.

Get the fuck out of here. Mm-hmm. Whew, that was so interesting. Wasn't it so good? Yes. Yeah, my mom started telling me this. I was like, holy what? Yeah.

So the court stuff was obviously sprinkled throughout. Yes. All right. You know what I'm thinking we should do now? You got to hanker in for our Discord. I wouldn't have said that. But sure. Let's take some questions from our Discord.

How do you get in there? All you have to do, bargain of bargains, is sign up for our Patreon at the $5 level. You get monthly bonus episodes, 22 of them right now out there. And you get into the Discord. Yeah, that's exactly right. People are also asking if you join, do you get all the bonus episodes? You sure do. Yes.

Yes. Absolutely. Kristen, this is a question for you from the smoking dildo that solved the case. Do you sleep nude? No. Oh, my God. Never understood. This question is not directed at you at all.

The question is just do you sleep neuter in PJs? I've never understood the nude sleeper. I've always been like, what if there's a fire? Exactly. What if there's a fire? What if there's a tornado? You can't just be naked. Okay, you know what I'm realizing?

If my house is on fire. You're not going to care about running out naked. I'm not going to get two shits. Yeah. Come on out. See my tits. Just as long as I'm not like a flame. You yeah come on out see my tits just as long as i'm not like a flame you'll be walking out of the burning house bush first burning bush i think that's a

bible verse yes we are very well versed on the bible here so a biblical podcast oh god oh i have very strong opinions on this. Okay. Alicia Lee would like to know, waffles or pancakes and why? Waffles, because you get the butter. Brandy, at a certain point. And the syrup stuck in. You don't want me to answer breakfast questions anymore?

You are so obsessed. Obsessed. I had no idea that this was one of your passions in life. It's funny because I never eat breakfast foods and I enjoy them so much. I'm obviously missing them from my life. I was going to say, yeah, I think you need to get on down to the Big Biscuit right away. Anyway, I like that the butter and the syrup gets trapped in the little squares on the waffle and it's delicious. Shame me for answering my waffle questions.

Well, I was about to say I'm not shaming, but I kind of am too. I just think it's like you light up when there's a question about breakfast food. Oh, yes to air fryers would like to know, Kristen, what was your favorite slash go-to restaurant when you were living in Boston oh okay uh they also went on to say mine was the poor house but they closed due to COVID okay here's what I'm gonna say might have to cut this. Hot take. Overall, I think the food in Boston, not that spectacular. Oh, that is a hot take. I know.

I tell you what, you want to offend people, dish their food. The chowder, excellent. A lot of great things in Boston. Yeah. Overall, I got to say, you want to go someplace with good food. You need more diversity. Excellent. A lot of great things in Boston. Yeah. Overall. I got to say, you want to go someplace with good food. You need more diversity. And you need people who are a little less health conscious.

I'm sorry, you look around and if everybody's just wearing their small North face, it's not going to be that great. But I'd say the answer is Zafdiggs. It was in Brookline. I wonder if they're still around. Oh my gosh. Nat likes cats. Are either of you criers while watching TV or movies? If so,

what was the first movie that made you cry? I ask because I just started catching up on Survivor and I cry every single time Loved One visits and the finale. I cry in fucking everything. Yeah. Someone wins Survivor. I'm going to cry.

Stupid sitcom. And, you know, there's like a touching moment. I'm going to cry. I love the show 9-1-1, which is about like emergency crews. They save somebody's life. Cry. I cry. I watch the Olympics.

Somebody has worked their whole life for this one thing and they win a fucking medal and they get to stand on that podium and hear their national anthem. I'm fucking crying. I can't tell you the first thing I cried at because I cry at everything. I'm a big crier with books. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. I don't know. It hits me on a deeper level.

Yeah. But I will say, because I am also going through Survivor right now. Oh, God. It's so embarrassing. I have these moments where I'm like, I hope Norm doesn't come downstairs. Mm-hmm. Because Spencer has finally decided. He's catching me masturbating.

Oh, my God. A lot of people masturbate to Survivor. And I am one of them. No, Brandy. I'll tell you the most recent one that made me cry. Tell me. Listen, Spencer, he's got a he's got a wall around his heart okay and his girlfriend has said she loves him but you know he just he

couldn't say it back because you know he just isn't comfortable he he struggles with that but then she came on the loved one's visit and he he said, I love you. Oh! Oh! That is good. Okay, one thing to kind of ruin that story. When he was talking about his issues with one of the other Survivor contestants, Jeremy, thank you for asking. He was like, my current girlfriend says blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, current girlfriend? Ouch. When I was like, current girlfriend? Ouch. When she sees that, that's going to bite real hard on the butt. No Icing in the Oreos asked, did not know until recently that there is a funeral history museum in Texas. Would either of you go to something like that or is it too weird for you? No, I would go. I would go there in a second. In fact, let's go.

Let's plan a... Oh my gosh. That sounds amazing. You know all I want to do is go on vacation. I know. That's all I want to do right now. I know.

And apparently it's to the few. All I want to do is zoom, zoom, zoom. And you boom, boom. I would join you but I just watched Survivor and obviously I masturbated so... I have to tap out of that. Bronze Heart wants to know I would join you, but I just watched Survivor. And obviously I masturbated, so.

Have to tap out of that. Bronzeheart wants to know if you had to travel forward two weeks or back two weeks, which would you choose? Back two weeks when my baby would still let me cuddle her to sleep at night. I don't know that I do need it. Yeah. Oh, Costco model for hire wants to know, what's the ultimate day off schedule? Money's no object. No obligations. Strictly 24 hours of you time.

We've talked about this. You know what I'm doing. Spa day. I know. Fucking spa day. I know. Brandy just swam in an imaginary pool i know it's funny it's i don't know that that's one i would always say but after all this covid bullshit all i want is spa day you know what i want to do i want to go to a spa i want to get all the stuff

done i want to get a massage i want to get a facial i want to get a micro stuff done. I want to get a massage. I want to get a facial. I want to get a microderm. Get my toes done. But I want to do one of those float sessions. Have you seen these? No. What are you talking about? Do you, like, get in a raft and just – No, you get in, like, a big salt tank thing. Uh-huh.

And you just, like, float there, and it's, like, a sensory, like, thing. Oh, my God. It's supposed to be, like, just like just crazy like rejuvenating. I want to go do that. Yeah. That sounds amazing. Amazing. Can you do facials yet?

Is that not? I mean like you have to keep the mask on. You can't do that. We're still out. We're still Fine. Fine. we're still out we're still fine fine should we do one more you think yeah

oh oh boy does kristin have opinions about this what do either of you drink half lemonade, half tea? Yes. Oh. Yes. Norm and I both love an Arnie Palmy. God. Kristen is very judgy about it. You know what?

Oh, my gosh. Why the hell am I so judgy? I mean, I know I come by it naturally, but oh. You can't judge me. I'm judging you. Yeah, Norm. Okay. God, I'm suchgy. I mean, I know I come by it naturally. You can't judge me. I'm judging you. Yeah, Norm. Okay. God, I'm such an asshole.

You know what? The other day, he got himself an Arnold Palmer. And I was like, ew, gross. Yeah. And it's just now occurring to me. Like, why did I have to say that? He was so excited about it. Oh, that's right. You were there. I was there. You were there. But seriously. Yeah. Why did I have to say that he was so excited about it oh that's right you were there

you were there but seriously yeah that was like the best day we discovered GoPuff we got treats delivered while I was doing your guys hair not a sponsor but we enjoyed it Norm gets a giant

Arnold Palmer he's so excited about it. It was so funny because we were just like shopping through the list of stuff and he's like, oh,

oh, they have Arnold Palmers on here. He's like, get yourself. I think I'm going to get one. And we're like,

get yourself an Arnold Palmer. Should we tell the people how we're trying to lure Norm to stay with the podcast? We are. Okay.

Everybody. Norm's life is getting busier. Yes. He currently, like, does a little audio stuff for us. He edits our monthly videos. Yeah. And he's been like, okay. I don't really have time for it anymore.

You know. And we do pay him. Yes. But he's basically, he's apparently not money motivated. He's not. Damn it. And so we're trying to keep him on with the promise of weekly Taco Bell and a 12-pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar. Okay.

I really want him to think about it. I do, too. I think. And he tried to do the thing of like, well, how much is that really for me? It's not that it might. It's not about the money. The money, money, money. Nope, it's not about the money.

It's not about the money. It's about the Taco Bell. So stay tuned, folks. We'll let you know if we're able to entice him. Can you imagine if you, able to entice him. Can you imagine if you worked for a real company and you were like, I'm sorry, I'm going to you have to leave. And they're like, OK, OK. We hear you.

We hear you. What about this? Taco Bell. Once a week, you get whatever you want. We run a strange business here. It's fine. It is fine. It works for us.

Hey, do you want to do some Supreme Court inductions? I sure do. I'm just not pulled up to the page yet. Hang on. Oh, here I am. Somehow I have to pee again. Already? Well, I've been drinking a lot of beverages.

Yeah, a lot of beverages. But still, I peed like, what, an hour ago? An hour ago. Oh, my God. What if I got space diapers and I peed during the podcast just to save time? Yeah. Do you want to pee real quick? No.

Okay. I want to suffer. It's my kink. No. Also, Survivor is my kink. All right. We are continuing to read your names and favorite cookies. Hannah Brixen.

Oreo cookie balls. Lucy. Chick-fil-A's chocolate chip cookies. Heather Z. Buskin's smiley face cookies. Emily Marazzo. Elephant ears. That's cruel. Chocolate chip. Uh-oh, it looks like I...

Oh, shit. She likes something and Oreos! It looks like I deleted part of her answer, so it just says and Oreos. All right, Stacey. I think we can only assume she likes popcorn salad and Oreos. Michelle Scully. Lemon cookies dipped in dark chocolate.

Oh, my God. Lemon and chocolate? I don't know. Oh, I would try it. I don't know. I would try it. I like lemon. I like dark chocolate.

Okay, we're setting Brandi off here. Sammy Luffman. Shockingly, I've never eaten a cookie before. Sammy, what? What planet are you from? We need to know more. I need to know everything. Please message us immediately.

Thank the wolves who raised you. Mandolin Course. Cherry white chocolate chip. Lydia Cantrell. Peanut butter cookies. Elizabeth Pavlovich. Swig sugar cookies. Amber Garrow.

Whatever oatmeal slash dried fruit nuts concoction my dad comes up with. Lake and real. Monster cookies. Allison Holman. Chocolate chip. Nicole Rail. Anything containing chocolate. Laura Zeems. Cookie dough and ice cream. Haley Gagne Squire. My aunt's snickerdoodles. Laurel Becker. My grandma's oatmeal raisin cookies. James McLenathan. My partner Scott's chocolate walnut oatmeal cookies.

Okay, new idea. We take Haley's aunt, Laurel's grandma, James' partner, and we have a bake-off. Yes, I like it. Top prize, gift card to Taco Bell. Ashley Hill. Potbelly's oatmeal chocolate chip cookies. Okay, here's what you do. Do they have good cookies?

Their cookies are amazing. And they will make you an ice cream sandwich out of their cookies. Oh, okay. Yep. It's huge. It takes like three days to eat it because you eat a little bit, you put it back in the freezer. Well, yeah, if you're a bitch. So fucking good.

Call me a bitch, Kristen. Call me a bitch. Emily J. Homemade ginger cookies. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media.

We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. Woo! Woo! Yeah, balls out just asking for it. Right.

My balls are just fresh out. That sounds rapey. Balls out just asking for it. That's right. My balls are just fresh out. That sounds rapey. Balls out just asking for it. That's not what I meant. I meant like you had the balls. I have the balls to just ask for it. All right. That doesn't sound better.

Anyway. Anyway, be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from a Washington Post article by Gillian Brockwell, an independent article by Ian Parker, reporting in the New York Times by Anthony DeRue. Bless you.

As well as additional articles for The Guardian, IOL, Times Live, and Mamma Mia. Here I go again for a full list of our sources. Visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff