Let's Go To Court! - 174: A Determined Mother

Episode Date: May 19, 2021

Patrick Smith called 911, distraught. He told the dispatcher that his wife, Amanda, had just shot herself in the head. When police arrived on the scene, they found gun cleaning equipment near the bed. The room was bloody, but Patrick wasn’t. He told the police what happened that night, but hours later, his story changed. With each iteration, the story got more strange. And Amanda’s mom, Judith Binnie, grew suspicious. Kristin felt like poo poo butter this week, so she didn’t do a case! By the way, you’ve heard the term poo poo butter before, right? And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Killer Fetish” episode Accident, Suicide, or Murder “'I Would Go After Him With My Dying Breath': Mom Gets Justice For Daughter In Suicide-Turned-Murder Case” by Erik Hawkins, Oxygen “Patrick Smith v The State of Texas” justia.com “Jury learns more of sex than killing” by Dave Harmon, Austin American-Statesman “A daughter’s death, a family’s quest” by Dave Harmon, Austin American-Statesman “Patrick Smith’s murder trial goes to jury” by Dave Harmon, Austin American-Statesman    YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about nothing. And I'll be talking about a determined mother.

Hmm. Is this one of those cases where, like, the mom just goes and kills somebody? No. Oh. Nope. Refreshing. Yep. Little plot twist.

How you feeling? Hey. Hey. Here's the deal. I know I sound bad, but I also feel bad. No, I've got something. Yeah.

You got some funk. You got the funk. Not in the good way. No. You know, sometimes having the funk is good. You're really feeling it. Uh-huh. You got the funk. Not in the good way. No. Sometimes having the funk is good. You're really feeling it. You're jamming. I think anyone who's ever seen me dance knows that I don't have the funk

at all. I was telling you about this. Yeah. Okay. It's not like super sick horrible times. I just feel like poo poo butter. Yeah. It's poo poo butter. We say that in my family. That's not like super sick, horrible times. I just feel like poo-poo butter. Yeah. It's poo-poo butter. You know, we say that in my family.

That's not a thing people say. I'm just now realizing. Okay. She said it. I was like, what the fuck is that? We say it all the time in my family. Oh, God. Now I'm coughing fit.

No, so this thing is just tearing ass through my family. The whole family's got it. Not literally tearing ass. You guys aren't like shitting your brains out. You guys have like, yeah, you've got like a head cold situation. We just feel like poo-poo butter, which is a term we've all heard. No. No?

Literally, Kyla. So I texted her because she's got it too. It just makes you super tired and feel like crap. And so I asked her, you know, how are you feeling? And she goes, oh, poo-poo butter. And I was like, yeah, poo-poo butter over here too. That's not a thing people say, folks. Well, I think it should start up.

That will 100% be somebody's Discord name by the end of the week. I think it's a very clear term. It's not like, I'm not going to the hospital. I'm not throwing up. You know, you don't have to worry about, you don't have to, like, bring me soup. It's just I feel like poo-poo butter. Okay. I'm not saying that.

All right. Should we also tell them about how I was afraid that you wouldn't believe me that I was sick? Right, because I often disbelieve you. You know, we both suffer from this, though. I know. This weird thing where we're like, what if I'm not believed? Yeah, it was a weird thing where I had to push back this recording, and then I had to push it back again.

And then I had to be like, hey, Brady, here's the deal. I'm not going to have a case for beer. Because, like, again, the poo-poo butter got me. That's right. Sounds like it's a thing, doesn't it? No, I hate it. Sounds like it might be kind of good. No.

Maybe I just. It in no way sounds like it might be kind of good. Are you picturing, like, spread on toast? Absolutely. No. I'm thinking about how much I love apple butter. I don't think poo poo butter. That sounds

like you got poo smeared on toast. Okay, fair enough. You want to eat that? But it's infused with butter so like how bad can it be? Disgusting. Alright, fair enough. Worse than Vegemite I would assume. Oh my god.

Australia, how do you do it? We just don't know. We don't know. We can't handle it. It's also like a dark and stormy day. Yeah, it's a poo-poo butter day. It's a poo-poo butter day. No!

Stop trying to make poo-poo butter happen. It's happening. It's not happening. Brandi, I'm so glad you're here. I was missing you. I know. I was missing you. I know. I was missing you. Hello.

We're like five minutes into recording here. You've buried the lead. There's big news in the Caruso house. Well, I feel some fear about it. Why? I realize I said that like I was trying to be all intriguing and fake. But no, I really. Okay.

So here's the deal, everyone. and it'd be all intriguing and fake. But no, I really, okay. So here's the deal, everyone. In case you don't know, on the last episode of Rocky and Bullwinkle, Kristen and Norman got a puppy named Dottie. And oh my gosh, we're just obsessed with Dottie.

Yes, I'm trying to win her over. Through the use of hot dogs. She's unsure about me. As many people are. Gotta just keep your distance. So we got a puppy. We're just like crazy about her. Yeah, she's amazing. And then, but like,

after we kind of got settled and got comfortable, we remembered that like at the shelter, she had like five other siblings and we were like, oh man, wouldn't it have been great if we'd gotten one of her siblings too like we could really do two dogs because i've wanted two dogs yeah ever since peanut was like a couple months old yeah that was always my thing

wanting two dogs um but at the time i was renting and then peanut was kind of too old you know tail as old as time anyway so norm was like why don't you call up the shelter and tell them like, hey, if any of those dogs get returned, we want to get it. And I was like, well, that's the longest of long shots. That's never going to happen. Yeah. But I called them anyway. Uh-huh.

And the lady was like, oh, yeah, I'll put you down on a list. And it's like, yeah, right. Yeah, right. It's a list that doesn't exist, first of all. In the circular filing cabinet. But no, sure enough, this week, Dottie's sister was returned. And, oh, my gosh, I love my little reject return, Dottie. I know.

She's so cute. She's so sweet. And she's really little. Oh, my gosh, I love my little reject return dog. I know, she's so cute. She's so sweet, and she's really little. Oh my gosh. Okay, but here's the thing. So we go to the shelter, you know, we're all excited. I was crying.

I was so excited. I could not believe it. We had literally almost adopted another dog the week before. Yeah. But like, we left to go think about it, and then we came back and it was gone. Someone stole my dog.

Anyway, so while we were there, the people at the shelter were like, hey, just so you know, there's this thing called litter mate syndrome to look out for. And we're kind of like, but what? All right. I'm concerned. I'm worried. Well, yeah. If you google it

you'll become even more worried it's kind of like when you have some symptoms and you go to doctor google and you're like it's like you're dying for sure

litter mate syndrome so it's not a scientific thing but if you get on the internet basically the advice is if you're trying to raise two puppies you know yeah

you might as well just kill yourself. Jesus! I don't think that's what they say. I started reading and it was all very harsh. It was like, they become very aggressive, they become loyal

to each other. The risk is like a pack mentality, right? Where they team up and they take over your home. And they murder you. Yeah, in your sleep. So if at some point this podcast is just Brandy, you'll know Dottie and Kit took over.

They've been separated long enough that probably... Also, I kind of... You don't believe in Pac... What's it called? Literally. I believe that it can happen, but part of me also is like, Norman and I are such fucking losers.

Like, hear me out. We work from home. Not just a COVID thing. Like, you guys are always. We're always here. There's no time for them to plot your murder. Yeah, we don't have kids, so it's not like we have other distractions. So, like, one of the things they say is, like, a lot of individual time with the dogs.

And it's like, well, we've got time. Yeah. There's, like, no time that you're not with your dogs. Right. Exactly. So, anyway, it'll be fine. Anyway, that's all to say, like, welcome to the family kit. Yeah.

Please don't murder us. And if you have any stories about litter mate syndrome being real, please keep them to yourself. We're looking for success stories only. i can't handle all the bad stuff all right i know you're not trying to jump into your case right now i am would you be a business cat oh i'm sorry you know what you know what i'd like to do before i start my case i'd like to talk about our patreon very good very good tell them all about it. Unless they want to hear from this cracking voice. Yeah, I mean, you can say it so

nicely. You know, at the $5 level, I just have to say, this is probably going to be the worst episode for people to listen to because you have your, like, cracking voice, and I have, like, some kind of little sinus thing going on, so I feel like every word has a D on the end of it right now.

I think it's terrible. Okay. I'm having that thing where like I can't really hear very well. Oh, yeah. And the other day, Kyla said something about a rock festival at Union Station. And I thought she was saying a croc festival. Oh, like they were honoring crocs? Like everybody shows up in crocs.

That would be a very, I bet a lot of people at the rock festival will have crocs on because they are very popular right now. And I don't understand it. You know, Norman just got a pair of crocs. He did? Okay, this is a whole thing. We're in the middle of an ad for our Patreon. He did. Okay. This is a whole thing. We're in the middle of an ad for our Patreon. Well, anyway.

Okay. Everybody, Norman has wanted Crocs for the longest time. And I'm on a journey here trying to be less judgmental, even though I was born this way, baby. You can't judge me. I'm judging you. That's right. And so, finally, he was like, how would you feel if I got Crocs? And I was like, you know what? Do whatever you want.

Get yourself some Crocs. Do whatever you want. Did your voice get real high? Like, oh, I'm going to burst into tears. He even told my family, you know, he's got a birthday coming up, as you do as well. And he was like, yeah, for my birthday, I want Crocs. Okay. Okay.

So I was at, like, TJ Maxx, as I am wont to do. Yeah, what? I have a prediction. What? Did you get him navy blue Crocs? No. Okay, all right. I just thought I can picture him in a pair of navy blue Crocs.

Maybe that's what he needs. Well, no. Here's the thing. Okay. I saw Crocs and I was like, oh, God. Okay. If I'm really nonjudgmental. Yeah.

I know my husband wants these things. Yeah. I'm here. Yeah. I should buy them. Yeah. So I texted him to see what size he wants because he kind of jumps around size wise. He does.

Well, he didn't respond soon enough. So I was like, ha ha ha. I got out of it. I did the exact perfect thing. Everyone wins. Well, anyway, yada, yada, yada. He got the Crocs. And they don't fit because of his wide feet. Yeah. He needs to size up. No, he did size up. And still they don't fit? Then they're too big. Oh, but then he can put the strap on the back. Okay.

All right. Crocs aren't for Norm then, I guess. He's devastated. I'm sure he is. Anyway. This is just some of the lovely banter. Yeah, would you like more of this type of stuff? You can pay for it at our Patreon.

For just $5 a month, you get exclusive bonus content. Whoops. Episodes. We have 22 bonus episodes right now on our Patreon available at the $5 level. Also at the $5 level, you get into the Discord to talk. It's like a chat room. It's a great time.

At the $7 level, that's the Supreme Court, you get all those bonus episodes, you get in the Discord, you also get a monthly pair of Crocs. Sorry, video. Or, a pair of Crocs.

Are we going to talk about the transition? We're going to transition. Oh. I didn't know if we were going to spring it on folks. Do you want to put it out there or do we just want to say video you want to put it out there or do you want to save video? Let's put it out there Because it will force us to actually do it We're going to do something kind of exciting

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and you get inducted on this very podcast. But there's another level. That's the Bob Moss level. That's the $10 level. You get all that stuff we already talked about. Plus, you get ad-free episodes, and you get them a day early. Plus, 10% off merch. T-shirts and stickers.

T-shirts and stickers. Stickers and T-shirts. Get them. Get them while they're good. Get them while we've got them. Are you ready to talk about a mother I really am

I'm so excited I was really kind of sad about like I really like seeing you I know

but I was this thing whatever the hell this poopoo butter is yeah trademark LGTC what if we started

making money off of poopoo butter no one is making money off of poopoo butter is yeah trademark lgtc what if we started making money off of poopoo butter no no one is making money off of poopoo butter what if what if every month you got to check for five dollars because of poopoo butter boy you'd have to shut up then wouldn't you for five dollars a month yeah you could go to starbucks once a month and be like you know what this is free because poopoo butteroo butter. Does $5 not cover your drink? You were making a face. Yeah.

I think it's like $5 instant change. I get a venti nonfat iced chai latte. You get the venti? Yeah. Okay. Okay, money bags. All right. I think it's like $5.11. You think? I love how you say these. I don't know the exact. I think it's like $5.11. You think? I love how you say these.

No, here's the deal. I don't know the exact. I think it's like $3.11. Somehow, no matter what, I order the exact same drink. Uh-huh. Somehow it's a different price almost every time. Like, I think it depends on how they key it in. Oh. So sometimes it's like $4.86 and sometimes it's $5.11.

Hmm. Okay. And that's sometimes it's $5.11. Hmm. Okay. And that's... That's the story. That's the chai tea latte. You don't get a chai tea latte. I do, too. I get an invented nonfat iced chai latte.

Okay. Okay. God, that sounds good. It's so fucking good. Not sponsored, by the way. We're just saying. All right, here we go. Okay. God, that sounds good. It's so fucking good. Not sponsored, by the way. We're just saying. All right, here we go. Okay.

It was 3.36 a.m. on April 15th, 1995, when a call came in to the 911 dispatch center in Austin, Texas. On the line was a very distraught Patrick Smith. Oh, I need somebody here quick, Patrick cried. What's the problem? The dispatcher asked. My wife just shot herself in the head, in the back of her head. What?

Is she breathing? The dispatcher asked. No, she's dead. I got someone who just died here in my arms, he told the dispatcher. I got someone who just died here in my arms, he told the dispatcher. I got someone who just died here in my arms. Okay. Not like in the song. I just died in your arms tonight.

I shot myself in the back of the head. I don't think that's how it goes. No, because it would never go that way because that makes no sense. At what point did the dispatcher say, bullshit? That'd be kind of funny. Emergency crews were quickly on the scene and Austin Police Department patrolman Terry Gamble. What? For sure how it's pronounced.

Was among the first to respond to the Smiths apartment. Which, okay, I've seen the apartment building. It looks to me like a roadside motel. And they describe this as a very small apartment. So it is like, you know, used to be a motel and now they're renting it out like an apartment. But there was like a kitchen and stuff in there. All right. Anyway, Amanda Smith laid dead across the mattress in the bedroom, dressed only in a T-shirt.

It was clear that she had suffered a gunshot wound to the head. There was blood everywhere. Gun cleaning equipment was laid out near the bed. But, you know, shortly after arriving on the scene, you know, they kind of took it in and Officer Gamble encountered a gentleman acting erratically outside the apartment. This guy was just kind of like cycling through a lot of emotions. He was crying. And then the next second he was yelling.

And then the next second he was laughing. And he even tried to pick a fight with a passerby who had slowed down to see, like, what all the hubbub was at the apartment complex. Officer Gamble quickly learned that this man was Patrick Smith, Amanda's husband, and that he had been the one to call 911. Officer Gamble tried to get a basic statement out of Patrick despite his emotional state. And this is the gist of what he said. They'd been having sex and the gun was just kind of there with them and it went off. Patrick told the officer that he'd been on top of Amanda when the fatal shot rang out. And he told the officer that he didn't know if it was intentional or not, but that Amanda had talked about suicide before. You look skeptical, Kristen.

That's a weird, dumb story. And also, like, okay, you shot your wife and then you cleaned the gun and you didn't even put the gun cleaning equipment away. I mean, come on. While Patrick was giving his statement, a homicide detective, Detective Bob Merrill, arrived on the scene. While they weren't calling this a homicide necessarily, it was a death investigation. And his first assessment of the scene was like, yeah, it looks like it could be a suicide, but he wasn't ready to make that declaration quite yet.

Well, I would hope not. Bob, are you an idiot? So to be sure that the investigation was thorough and they didn't miss anything, he asked Patrick to submit to an atomic absorption analysis test. What do what now? It's just like a swab for gunshot residue. Boy, that sounds really exciting.

And you're just talking about like a Q-tip to the finger, aren't you? Yep, yep. The whole hand. They did the whole hand. Oh, okay. Both sides, all the fingies. Mm-hmm. The whole thing.

I like it when you say fingies. It was while he was swabbing Patrick's hands that Detective Merrill... That they looked into each other's eyes and realized something had been missing. No! I'm sorry, I was ready for a plot twist. Detective Merrill got his first inkling that something sketchy might be... No, a foot. These stories are so stupid.

This was not his first inkling. Patrick had told the other officers on the scene that he had been on top of or maybe behind Amanda when the gun had gone off. And the scene. Wait, on top of or behind? You know, like, was he like, you know, Kristen, picture some sexual positions. Like, was he like, you know, Kristen, picture some sexual positions. He was either like, you know, kneeling behind or maybe like behind but then kind of hunched over her. Okay, okay.

Okay. I'm picturing it perfectly. Okay. Because I am not a virgin. I just want to clear that up. You heard it here first, folks. There's a rumor going around. So he's like, you know, he's heard that he said he was on top of her, behind her, you know. Right.

And remember, this scene was extremely bloody. The bed was covered in so much blood that it was dripping off onto the floor. Oh, God. Yet Patrick had, like, no blood on him. Hmm. So the detective is like, okay, that doesn't really make any sense. Nope.

But he gets the basic statement, and they do the atomic absorption analysis test. Mm-hmm. And then they let Patrick leave so he can compose himself while they finished processing the scene. At this point, they weren't even really sure what kind of scene it was. Was it

an accident? Suicide? Or murder? They were too certain. Come on! I don't know that I need to say this at this point, but this obviously comes from an episode of my favorite oxygen show.

Accident, suicide, or murder. Oh, I'm sorry. I got it all out of order. See, this is why I don't like shows with a premise like this. They have to shoehorn it into the premise. Because it's always murder, first of all. It's not always murder. But, like, I'm sorry,

this scene, if... Here's... Okay, here's the thing. If they really arrived at this scene and they were like, I don't know, could this be suicide or an accident?

Then they should all be fired immediately. Okay, well, just you fucking wait. Wait, are you serious? Just you fucking wait. Are you serious? Keep your fucking pants on, Kristen.

Okay. I did put on my special sweatpants for you today. Am I about to eat crow, as they say? Where does that saying come from? I don't know. Okay, anyway. There's no time to look it up. four hours later Patrick returned

to the station with a lawyer and spoke with wow and spoke with homicide detective Bob Merrill if you think I'm going

to take that out I'm not everybody I'll be editing this episode she's editing this episode and I'm high on life the power

the power Patrick was calmer now Patty's fine she's just on vacation. Sorry. Yeah, Patty's great. She just needed the week off. Patrick was calmer now, and he told police that he and Amanda had actually separated eight weeks earlier.

So they were getting ready to go through a divorce. And that he was actually dating someone else by now, but that he and Amanda were still seeing each other regularly for sex. And then he told them in shocking graphic detail what had really taken place at Amanda's apartment that night. It had actually all started a couple of days earlier on April 13th, 1995. That day, Patrick went to Amanda's apartment. So he was living with his new girlfriend by this time, but he was still coming over to Amanda's apartment regularly to have sex with her. Wow. Cool.

And that day, the two had started to have anal sex. I know you're young, Kristen. I'm not sure that you can, if you're mature enough to handle this. You know what? I know I look like I'm 18, but I'm actually older than you. Huh? That's what a good skincare routine will do.

I'll have you know that you jinxed me and I got a zit this week. Good. You deserve like 20 zits. Do you know how many people have come forward and they're like, I also don't wash my makeup off at night. I hate everyone. Yeah, I had one zit like right over here.

Yeah, and it's totally gone and I think you're maybe making it up. It was a real zit. I had to pop it and everything. Gross. Did you? No. What?

That like, it wasn't until we listened to the edits of that episode that it fully sunk in that you were actually telling me that you just don't wash your face at night. Yeah. Like that. I wash my face every day. I washed in the morning. Yeah. OK.

That like did not. Yes. It couldn't get in there. You couldn. Okay. That like did not. Yes. It couldn't get in there. You couldn't. You can't even cross. You can't even wrap your brain around that. It'd be like if you were like, hey, I arrived at your house on a unicycle. I'd be like, no.

Yeah. Yes. I wash my face every day, but I wash it in the morning. I wash the previous day off in the morning. You know what I do? I wash my face twice a day. Yeah, you have a morning regimen and an evening regimen, right? Mm-hmm.

And look at my pores. You're beautiful. Chocked full of stuff. Okay, so Patrick is making this statement. He's like in an interrogation room with them. He brought his lawyer along and he's like, okay, we've separated but we're still meeting regularly for sex. On the 13th, I came over and we were having anal sex. And Amanda asked him to stop.

And she said it was hurting her. And Patrick was like, no. Having anal sex means so much to me. It is making true love. And I do not want to just have sex with you.

I want to make love to you. And that means, to me, anal sex. What? What, to me, anal sex. Okay. What? What? What? So this is his statement.

This is what he is telling police that he told Amanda that day. Okay, so I'm making love to you. Mm-hmm. So you've asked me to stop, so I'm going to keep going, so I'm raping you. Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. And so he's like, you know what?

I'm raping you. Yep. Mm-hmm. And so he's like, you know what? If you don't want to have anal sex with me, if you don't want me to make love to you, I might as well kill myself. What? Okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then he said, Amanda said, oh, my gosh, what a great idea. Oh, my God. Hang on. I'm sorry. Let's make it a double suicide. Okay. Let's kill ourselves together.

Mm-hmm. He went on to say that she said, we'd have to do it at the same time. If you just killed yourself, I don't think I'd have the courage to kill myself. And then she asked Patrick if he still had his gun. And Patrick told her that it was at the pawn shop and that he didn't have the money to retrieve it. And so Amanda was like, cool, no problem. I have the money in my account. I'll get it out and then you go get it from the pawn shop.

And so Patrick – This is the dumbest, weirdest story. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. It gets weirder. How is that possible? Mm-hmm. So Patrick is like, great.

So, like, great. So like, whatever. He leaves. He comes back later on Friday. So at the pawn shop, only he shows up. Nope. Nope.

Nope. Okay. What? On Friday, he comes back later to Amanda's apartment. So this is the next day. Cause that happened like in the, you know,

late night, whatever. It's now Friday at like 11 a.m. Patrick comes back over and picks up Amanda and they go to the bank together to get the money out of her bank account so that he can go get the gun. They go through the bank's drive-thru. And Patrick tells these investigators that while they're in the drive-thru they are performing sex acts on each other oh my god because they're so turned on by the idea of what they're going to do okay they get the money and Amanda gives the money to Patrick. And then she's got to, like, go somewhere. And so he gives the money to his new girlfriend.

And she is the one who goes to the pawn shop and gets the gun. Oh, my God. Following along so far? I think so. Mm-hmm. So then later that same night, so now it's it's it's what Thursday night late at night. He comes back to or I'm sorry, it's Friday night late at night. And he comes back.

How are you getting confused? He comes back to Amanda's apartment. And this time he has the gun. But he's like, hold on. First of all, I need to show you how to clean the gun. Why would you need to do that? Because he goes on to explain it. He's ready for that question, Kristen. Because if it's just my fingerprints that are on the gun, they're going to think this was a murder suicide, not a double suicide. So we need to wipe it clean first. Well, that doesn't make any sense at all.

He doesn't want to be labeled a murderer posthumously. If they're both going to be dead, someone's fingerprints are going to be on it. Yeah, so it should be Amanda's. Well, then she gets framed as the murderer. No. No? No, Kristen. Oh, what? Yeah, so he's literally like, okay, I've got the murderer. No. No? No, Kristen. Oh, what?

Yeah, so he's literally like, okay, I've got the gun. We're going to go through with your plan. This is your plan. We're going to do a double suicide, but here,

let's clean the gun first so my fingerprints aren't on it because I don't want to be labeled a murderer and I don't want them to think this was a murder-suicide.

Yeah. This is the story that he is telling to investigators in the interrogation room, in the presence of his lawyer. You know what I was thinking? I was thinking the most amazing part of this story is that his attorney was present. That had to be the worst attorney ever to not be like, hey, hey, hey. Shut up. Shut up.

Hey. Back it up there. So they cleaned the gun. Patrick says he showed Amanda how to load it, which she did. And then she just began like swinging it around. Because you know what? What? Patrick then revealed something to the investigators

that he had yet to reveal. What was that? It was just something that happened regularly because Amanda had a gun fetish. Okay. She was sexually aroused by guns, Kristen. Okay. She liked to play with them while they had sex.

I think that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I mean, I'm sure there are people out there who are into that, but it's like, and also anal sex is love. You don't get to have all this. Yeah, you get one piece of this. Yep. You get to have all the pieces of this. Yeah, you get one piece of this.

Yep. So they now are both very turned on because they have the gun and they have the gun fetish. I'm rock hard just hearing about it. Of course. And she was putting the gun in her mouth and sucking on the gun. And he was behind her and caressing her body. And then the gun went off. She told him to put his head in a specific position. And she said she was going to pull the trigger, but he didn't believe her. And he didn't do what she asked.

And the gun went off and Amanda was dead and he was't do what she asked and the gun went off and Amanda was dead and he was still alive. He didn't think that she was serious. He thought this was just another layer of her gun fetish. When the gun went off, he jumped up off the bed.

He couldn't believe that she was dead, and that's when he called 911. He went on to explain that Amanda had recently suffered a miscarriage, and following that miscarriage, she had previously attempted suicide. So investigators are listening to this story that they're telling and that he's telling and they're like, what the fuck? Like, none of this makes any sense. Plus, there was a big hole in Patrick's story. OK. According to him and according to other people in the apartment complex, the gun went off

at 2.20 a.m. The gun went off at 2.20 a.m. Eighty-six minutes passed before Patrick called 911. And he made no attempt to explain. Well, he had to get himself cleaned up and then clean the gun. Yeah. Right? Obviously, investigators' concerns with this case started to grow.rick had changed his story now a couple of times like at first it was the gun was just there and it was an accident and now it was

like a whole planned thing and then what about those 86 minutes what had he done in that time and why wasn't there any blood on patrick if his story was true if his own version was true, there should be a lot of blood on him. And then the swaps came back. The GSR test. Amanda had gunshot residue on one of her hands. But Patrick had it on both of his. So something went wrong with that test, right? Because that can't possibly be the case.

Despite the investigators' concerns and, like, the questions about the gunshot residue, medical examiner looked over the case and determined that Amanda's manner of death was suicide. Are you for real? Based on the fact that there was gunpowder residue on her mouth and based on the trajectory of the bullet. Seriously? Seriously. Listed the manner of death as suicide. I'm stunned.

Yep. Okay. Yep. Okay. Continue. As was Amanda's family. Yeah. They didn't believe Patrick's story for a second. Enter one determined mom who was not going to let the system keep her from getting justice for her daughter.

Judith Benny thought Patrick was fine when he first started dating her daughter. They started dating in the spring of 1994. And Amanda gushed about Patrick. He was so sweet and so handsome. And spoiler alert, he was not handsome. Okay, yeah. And he had completely swept her off her feet. What did he look like?

He just, he's got like some shaggy hair. He's got some problems with his teeth. Oh, you hate bad teeth. I know. I'm very judgy about the teeth situation. He did have dimples, though. So maybe she was like me and into the teeth situation. He did have dimples, though, so maybe she was like me and into the dimples.

Okay. So, they started dating and Judith was like, fine, whatever. But then Judith saw the bruises on Amanda. And it was clear to her

that the relationship was not a good one or a safe one. But Amanda stayed with Patrick. On June 18, 1994, Patrick was arrested and charged with assaulting Amanda. He spent two days in jail. But just a month after he was released, Patrick and Amanda were married. Judith was shocked when she learned that her daughter had married Patrick. Shocked and concerned, obviously, but she knew there was little she could do

to change her daughter's mind about Patrick. But she believed him to be dangerous. Yeah. And at the time, Judith lived in Arizona while Amanda lived in Austin, so it's not like she could physically protect her. So she did what little she could do. She tried to be supportive, but she also tried to show her daughter that she deserved better.

And she hoped that she would come to that conclusion herself and leave him. And on October 17th, 1994, Amanda did leave, kind of. That day, she sought protection at the Austin Center for Battered Women. While she was staying at the shelter, Patrick went to court on his assault charge. He received a year's probation. But when Amanda left the women's shelter after three weeks, she moved back into her apartment with Patrick. Which is super common. Super common.

Extremely common. I'm going to mess up the stat, but I think white women, you go back seven times. And it's just more and more basically depending on your vulnerability and a bunch of other factors. There was another incident in January of 1995 where a neighbor called the police after they heard Patrick throw a glass at Amanda. called the police after they heard Patrick throw a glass at Amanda. Initially in that case, Amanda actually reached out to her brother's girlfriend, who was a lawyer, and asked her to defend Patrick. Amanda was concerned that another assault arrest would result in a probation violation for Patrick, and she was exactly right. But for whatever reason, assault charges for that January incident weren't filed until March. And at that time, his probation officer did actually file a violation notice.

By this time, though, Amanda and Patrick were no longer together. Amanda had told Patrick she wanted a divorce back in February and he had moved out of their apartment. Judith was ecstatic when Amanda told her that she and Patrick had separated and that he had moved out. Amanda told her it was just a matter of saving up the money so she could officially file for divorce, but that she was done with him and ready to move forward with her life. It was just a couple months after that that Judith received the call no parent ever wants to get. It was from someone at the medical examiner's office in Austin and they were calling to let her know that Amanda was dead.

Judith recalls being devastated by that call, obviously, but it was the call that came next that lit a fire in her. The next call came from Patrick.

Oh, fuck off. And he told Judith that Amanda had died by suicide. Oh. Judith would not, could not, did not believe it. No. So she sprung into action. First, Judith had to get a—

I wonder what that phone call was like. I can't even imagine. Because you know she didn't buy that shit for a second. Yeah. First, Judith had to get a court order to block Patrick from cremating Amanda's body. Once she secured that, she called the detective on the case and told him there was no part of Patrick's story that made any sense to her. First of all, Amanda had finally gotten away from him and was looking forward to a new life. away from him and was looking forward to a new life.

Second of all, there was no way Amanda had a gun fetish, as Patrick had told them. The whole family knew she had a serious fear of guns. Her brother regularly carried a weapon, and she made him take it off anytime she was around him. made him take it off any time she was around him. By this point, Detective Merrill actually believed that Amanda's family was on to something. Well, no shit. Yeah. I'm sorry. This is so stupid.

Right. Yeah. But you've got the medical examiner's determination. Well, that medical examiner is an idiot, according to me. Yeah. A better medical examiner is an idiot according to me yeah a better medical examiner at the time of amanda's death patrick was facing that second assault charge and he was looking at most likely a year or two of jail time merrill believed that this could be a motive yeah but he told judith that he'd already talked to the medical examiner and that they had declined to change the manner of death.

Judith, who's a bit of a spitfire with the cutest little like dark blue pixie cut. All right, yeah. Said, that son of a bitch was going to pay for taking my daughter. Hell yeah. Yeah. So she launched an investigation of her own.

She and her husband, Ed, who was Amanda's stepdad, actually moved from Arizona to Texas so they could keep an eye on the case and prod things along. In their own investigation, they turned up a few inconsistencies as well as a few things of concern. First, they learned that the medical examiner had listed Amanda's time of death at 4 a.m. Okay. The initial 911 call came in at 336. At 4 a.m., there were all kinds of people at the apartment already. And multiple people, including Patrick, put the time of the gunshot at 2.20 a.m. Mm-hmm. They also learned that following Amanda's death, Patrick had called her employer, H-E-B Grocers, or the HEB, as I like to say, and inquired about her life insurance policy.

Oh, give me a break. And that he'd also shown up at the bank at Amanda's store and tried to withdraw any remaining funds in her account. But thankfully, the bank manager had been like, uh-uh, I don't fucking think so, buddy. Thankfully, her bank was in her grocery store. And so they knew that they were going through a divorce and all this. So when he showed up, he was like, I'm her husband.

Look, I have a check. Right. And they were like, no, bye-bye. Wow. That's a pretty bold move. a check. Right. And they were like, no, bye-bye. Wow. That's a pretty bold move. No shit. Yeah. So Amanda's mom compiles all of this stuff and they take this evidence and they confront the medical examiner at their office.

They said it looked like the manner of death determination had been based purely on Patrick's account of the events that night. But it is also the medical examiner's responsibility to take into consideration the past relationship between Amanda and Patrick as well as Patrick's behavior following Amanda's death. So they sit down with the medical examiner and they're like, what the fuck, man? Like, look at all of this stuff. Look at his behavior. Look at the stuff leading up to this. Look what he did afterwards. And excuse me, you put her time of death at 4 a.m.

Are you saying she shot herself in a room full of paramedics and police officers? And so they left that meeting that day with the medical examiner saying he the medical examiner said, I'll look into it. Oh, mighty good of you, sir. Was he drunk? I don't know. But she was not suicidal, including the fact that she had in her purse her bills for the month already like paid, like the checks written out in envelopes addressed and stamped. Like that is not the behavior of somebody who was planning to take their life. Right. So they lay all this out with the medical examiner and he's like, I'll look into it.

So they left that meeting and they were just, you know, beyond pissed. But after it, the medical examiner changed Amanda's manner of death to undetermined. Well, yeah, least you could do. So that allowed Detective Merrill to kind of crank up his investigation. He spoke to some of Patrick's exes who all said that he was abusive and that he treated them as sex slaves. And then they talked to Patrick's first wife, and she said that he was planning to leave the state. He was headed to California. And so Detective Merrill is like, well, fuck, we can't let him get out of the state.

And so they quickly got an arrest warrant and charged Patrick with aiding a suicide. So on this episode of this show that I watched, Judith was like, OK, we were glad he was in jail, but aiding suicide. Nope. That's not what we wanted. He needs to be charged with murder. OK, to be fair, the aiding suicide charge was just like a placeholder to keep him from leaving the state. They continued to work on this to try and upgrade the charges. So Detective Merrill went to work to put together enough evidence to upgrade the charges.

And he soon found out that Patrick's violence went back farther than any of these relationships. He actually had a pretty tumultuous childhood. He'd been in and out of like the foster care system. And he'd actually been like kicked out of more than 20 foster homes. Oh, wow. For setting fires and killing animals. Oh. So when they uncovered that evidence, they ordered a psychological evaluation on Patrick Smith.

And this is what the court ordered psychological evaluation determined. It read, Patrick Smith is a psychopath. Oh. He has a high potential for violence. It is not possible to change psychopaths through traditional counseling. Therefore, incarceration is the only way to manage the overwhelming risk he poses to the community.

Smith should be sent to prison for as long as possible. Wow. Yeah. So following that evaluation, so this is like two months later after he's been charged with aiding a suicide, a grand jury is convened and the charges were upgraded to manslaughter. convened and the charges were upgraded to manslaughter. So basically under the manslaughter charge, the argument was that Patrick was acting in a reckless manner by bringing a loaded gun to bed to be used as a sexual instrument.

So Judith was thrilled to see the charges upgraded, but she's still dissatisfied. This charge is still based purely on Patrick's version of events, which there's no way are the truth. Pure bullshit. Yes, they're not the truth. Judith wanted murder charges. This is I cannot imagine how infuriating this would be. Yeah.

When any idiot can hear these basic facts and be like, well, it's very clear what happened here. Yeah. And somehow the powers that be can't see it. Yeah. So investigators went to work to see if they could prove that a murder had occurred. They had new forensic tests done to see if they could prove that Patrick had to have been the one to fire the gun. So through these tests,

they were able to determine that if Patrick's hands had been the way he described that night in the position he said when the gun went off, that there's no way he could have gunshot residue on both of his hands. By his own account, one of his hands had been like under Amanda's body. So there's no way he could have gotten gunshot residue on both sides of both hands.

The more plausible explanation the test showed was that Patrick Smith had gunshot residue on both of his hands because both of his hands were on the gun. He had held the gun in Amanda's hand in a position to make it look like she had fired the gun herself. So investigators now believed that they had enough evidence to prove that Patrick Smith was the one to pull the trigger. He had murdered Amanda Smith. These tests, though, had taken months and Judith was not here for it.

She was getting restless. She was impatient. And so in the meantime, to try and get some attention on the case, she called the press and she was like, hey, so there was a psychological evaluation done in this case. And, you know, psychological evaluations are public records. So if you wanted to look into it, you could find it. Oh, she's brilliant. And so basically she leaked the psychological profile or the psychological evaluation to the press. Yep. And then that got a ton of attention on the case.

Of course it did. Because there's this person just out there in the community. Yep. Who has been deemed a psychopath and extremely dangerous. When talking about this move, Judith said, I would go after him with my dying breath to get justice. There was a real risk of this backfiring, though, because typically this is not something that a juror would get to see a psychological evaluation. It could be brought in by bringing in the psychologist to testify about it, but they don't generally just get to see, like it laid out like this, the psychological evaluation.

And so the defense filed a motion saying that this had huge potential to taint their jury pool by this just being out there in the press. And so they submitted a motion to move the trial out of town. But the judge ultimately denied that motion. But this delayed it again because these motions, these hearings that had to take place took all of this time.

But this time, the prosecution made good use of this delay. They again convened a grand jury, presented this new evidence surrounding the gunshot residue, and they got the charges upgraded to murder. Hell yes. Finally, Patrick Smith was charged with the murder of Amanda Smith. All right.

December of 1996, Prosecutor Gary Cobb told the jurors that Patrick was a master manipulator of women and that he had killed Amanda to keep himself out of jail and to try and get her life insurance money. Yeah, I think that makes plenty of sense. Yeah. So the prosecution wanted to use his original statement to investigators at his trial. In it, he had exhibited extremely manipulative behavior. He talked about like, oh, if you really loved me, you'd have anal sex with me. This is his own version of events, and it shows an extreme level of manipulation. So the defense fought really hard to keep this out of court.

They said Patrick hadn't been Mirandized when he gave that statement. But the investigators argued that they hadn't needed to Mirandize him because he wasn't a suspect. He was just a witness to a death at that time. Any

incriminating stuff he said, he said that because he wanted to, not because he was a suspect, and he said it in the presence of his attorney. Okay. And so ultimately the judge agreed and he allowed the statement in. Okay. Yeah.

And he was like, yeah, he didn't need to be Mirandized. He wasn't a suspect. I mean, he should have been. His lawyer was right there. Yeah. So the jury got to see that whole interview, all of his claims about the big double suicide plot, all of that. Amanda's brother then testified about her fear of guns and how they had to do that court order to keep that the shot was fired at 2.20 a.m. and that he had offered no explanation as to what happened during those 86 minutes that he waited to call 911.

Judith testified, and she testified that Patrick's claims of Amanda being suicidal following a miscarriage were false. She said that she was extremely close with her daughter. And in April of 1995, Amanda had told her she wasn't pregnant. So there was no miscarriage. This was completely fabricated by Patrick. A former girlfriend of Patrick's, April Haig, testified that she had talked to him shortly before Amanda's death and that he had mentioned that he was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. Oh, my God.

And then she spoke to him again shortly after Amanda's death. And she testified that Patrick was very upset because he had just learned that Amanda had changed her beneficiary to her mother. Mm-hmm. Wow. Oh. Mm-hmm. Wow. Yep. April also testified that Patrick asked her to read the book

Slave Girl of Gore. He said it would teach her how to act. So it's like a book about being a sex slave, apparently. I know, I've read it.

She also testified that he asked her to call him master and that he would hit her if she refused. So the prosecution was also able to show that he had given the same book to Amanda and his new girlfriend, actually now wife, the woman he had started dating. Oh, my God. She married him? She married him. Oh, no. She married him like 40 days after Amanda's death. Yeah, he's a master manipulator.

Mm-hmm. Oh, shit. April also testified that when she ended their relationship and kicked him out of her house, he had faked a suicide attempt to try and get her to take him back. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh, I hate this guy so much. now wife, testified for the defense that Patrick had never hit her or forced her to do anything she didn't want to do. Yeah. Mm hmm.

In closing arguments, prosecutors called Patrick an intelligent monster who carefully planned to kill Amanda. who carefully planned to kill Amanda. What this case is all about, they continued, is a lethal combination of control, violence, and sex. These three things are hooked up in Patrick Smith's mind and behavior. And then they kind of laid it all out for the jury. Amanda Smith was never suicidal. She was just a struggling woman whom Patrick had swept off her feet before slowly assuming complete emotional control over her. Enough control to get her to put a gun in her mouth.

They speculated that Amanda, wanting to please Patrick, put what she thought was an empty gun in her mouth for his sexual gratification. Put what she thought was an empty gun in her mouth for his sexual gratification. And then Patrick closed his hands over hers and pulled the trigger. In his closing arguments, the defense attorney. Or he just like pulled out a gun on her. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's possible as well. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's possible as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In his closing arguments, the lead defense attorney, Tom Weber, who had actually left the DA's office like less than a year before this, said, there's not one shred of evidence of a murder, not a piece.

He then reminded the jury how the case had started as aiding a suicide and then it had jumped to manslaughter and then to murder. He said, in this county, you can get a warm glass of milk indicted for anything you want. And that's the truth. They started with a conclusion and they tried to shape the facts around it. I don't know, man. I don't either. I think this looked like a murder from yeah minute one yeah weber said patrick was guilty of aiding a suicide morally he is responsible for her death without question and he is going to answer to a greater authority.

So, yeah. So, jury, don't worry about this. It's in God's hands. That's right. God's got this one. Don't you worry about it. Wow. What a manipulative thing to say.

Yeah. Okay. Yep. In the end, the jury was unconvinced by the defense's claim that the medical examiner had gotten Amanda's manner of death right the first time. And they found him guilty of murder. Wow, they're kind of doing God's job. I don't know how I feel about that. I know, right?

God's going to have to get a side gig or something. One juror later said, would you really put a loaded gun in your mouth for pleasure? That was too much for me. It was like this little old lady and she was like, what? They lost me

when they were talking about a gun fetish. I can't even imagine. That's much different than my fetishes. I'll tell you that. Patrick was sentenced to 40 years in prison. The judge is actually interviewed on this episode of Accident, Suicide or Murder. And he said that his wife was really upset with him for only sentencing Patrick to 40 years. She thought he should be sentenced to life in prison.

And he said, I've seen a lot of murders in my day. And to me, he fell right in the middle there, which should be 40 years. Not the worst. Not the best. That is the weirdest little anecdote that I'm sure is supposed to be really cute. Okay. Yeah. Oh, the old wife was real upset with me.

And then he went on to say, well, you know, nobody gets out on their first parole opportunity anyway, so he's going to have to serve at least 20 years. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Judith said that the outcome of her daughter's case should be a reminder for victims' families seeking justice. She said, question authority. Push authority.

Don't believe everything they want you to believe. Find out for yourself. Wow. Yeah. That's good advice. And that is the story of one determined mother. Oh. God, I

hate it. I know. But if she hadn't... I think that's what's so mind-boggling to me is that you should not have to have an advocate like this step in for you. Right? When the facts are so clear.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Bunch of bullshit. I agree. I am barely hanging in there. Don't go with how Kristen spelled it. I'm not sure where that will take you.

That's my own off-brand cosmetics company. Cosmetics company. Every order comes with a tin of mints. Okay, I'm thinking we should take some questions from our Discord. Oh, you are, are you? Yes. It was an idea that just occurred to me.

That sounds like a great idea. Desert Peach would like to know, do you like to wear socks to bed? Absolutely. Absolutely not. Really? Absolutely. Absolutely not. Really? No. Brandy. Ugh.

Don't your feet get a little chilly? No. No. No. Ugh. I can't imagine wearing socks to bed. That sounds terrible. I wear socks all the time.

I know. You love socks. I am anti-sock. It's pretty chilly out today, and I have flippies on. Yeah. You're wearing your weird ensemble that you love. I know. You love socks. I am anti-sock. It's pretty chilly out today, and I have flippies on. Yeah. You're wearing your weird ensemble that you love. I do. It's the hoodie with the flippies.

Yep. Hoodie and flippies. I absolutely cannot wear socks to bed. And I do the thing, okay, where I, like, you know, I, like, bundle up in my down comforter, and then I tuck one foot out to, like, temperature regulate, I like bundle up in my down comforter and then I tuck one foot out to like temperature regulate. I do the same thing. But with a sock on, what good is that doing? It does a little bit.

Just enough. No, I don't think so. Just enough, ma'am. I don't think so. Wrong. Sheesh. What is this? Skeezy Skunch says tuna mac salad.

Yay or nay? You think that's like tuna casserole? Yeah. Yeah, I like tuna casserole. Do you like tuna casserole? I mean, I'm never going to like ask for it. Do you like it with peas in it? Sure.

I mean, it's one of those things I will eat basically anything except for popcorn salad, we've learned. Yeah. But yeah, I'm never going to be like, you know what I'm going to make tonight? Tuna casserole with peas. Because it's hot date night at the Caruso household. You know, just describing hot tuna casserole, that sounds disgusting. I do like it, though. I was going to say, you're so picky, but you like hot tuna casserole. Yeah,

I eat that. I mean, I haven't eaten it in years, but my mom used to make it when I was a kid. You know, you got your egg noodles, tuna, cream of mushroom soup, peas. Yep. Spread that in, put American cheese on top of it. Oh, that sounds disgusting. No. American cheese on top of it. Oh, that sounds disgusting. No. You know, put some Kraft Singles right on top of that. Are you serious?

Yeah. The things you eat and the things you don't, I'm telling you, you should be studied. It does sound disgusting. It does. It sounds so gross. Did you eat it all the time when I was a kid. Well, hey, you know. Like I said, I haven't eaten it in years, though. Oh, my gosh.

I have one, but I have to look up my answer. Okay. Caitlin wants to know, what's one missing persons case you're absolutely invested in? Let me look it up to make sure I have the name right. Okay. Kyron Horman is mine. He's this little boy. He went missing in Portland, Oregon.

He was like last seen when his stepmom dropped him off at school and was like never seen again. The stepmom has to have been involved in some way. He's never seen leaving the school. She says she dropped him off, but there was a science fair that day and he didn't show up at the science fair.

And I think she's been questioned a bunch, but they just don't have enough to like this happened in 2010. And I think he was like seven. Wow. OK. I'm very invested in this case. But. Yeah, he was seven. Okay. I'm very invested in this case, but yeah, he was seven. Yeah, and it's never gone anywhere.

You know, a local one that I'm still kind of like, I wonder what happened there. Baby Lisa? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Missing baby. I mean, that happened a long time ago. What? What?

What? What? What? There's a lawsuit here on the Kyron Horman case, so I could cover it. There was a civil suit filed. Do it, Brandy. Okay, I'll do it. No nuts. Do it. I'll do it. I just pulled up the Wikipedia page.

I didn't even know that happened. Apparently, I'm not that invested in it. I really thought I was. Yeah, the baby Lisa case. Okay. I did. I think I feel like I've told this story on the podcast already. So I'm very sorry if you're hearing it for the second time.

When she was missing, I mean, she's still missing now. But like when it first happened, I was working an event at the Kansas City Zoo and the family was there handing out flyers. I don't think you have told this story. Yeah. Wait, is that the end of the story? That's the whole story. Boy. I mean, I feel like you always just see that like on the TV shows that the family's handing out flyers.

I experienced it firsthand. You were there. I was there when they were handing out the flyers, Kristen. Wow. My God. So did you hold the flyer? I took a flyer. I did. And you know what?

What? I read it. You heard it here first, folks. Kind of a firsthand experience with that case. Brandi, I think you're too close to that one to ever cover it. Okay. Do you have a theory in that case?

No, I don't. You don't? See, I don't know. I don't know. Let's cover it right now. Okay. Okay. You're one of those, you memorize everything.

I just kind of know some names, and I'm like, I remember I was intrigued by that. Baby goes missing overnight. Mom is home with it. Dad's at work. Comes home. Finds the baby missing. Bedroom window? Was it open? I don't know. Was the mom drunk? Who knows? Okay, this is what I think. What?

I think the mom knows what happened. I think it's very likely that she even accidentally killed the baby and then disposed of it in some way. I think the dad knows what happened. I think it's very likely that she even accidentally killed the baby and then disposed of it in some way. I think the dad has no idea. That would be terrible. Yeah. From a source directly connected to the investigation, authorities believe that baby Lisa is dead, but they can't prove it. So no one's

ever been charged. You know this from a source? Confidential source. Was that person at the zoo that day? It was one of the giraffes. It was somebody I took a flyer from.

I mean, that's probably just statistics, too. Yeah. That she's most likely dead. Yeah. Or. Or. Being raised by someone else.

Yes! A mile from where they live. Oh, I think that's a very interesting question. Veronica H. wants to know, what's your favorite free bread at restaurants? Do you have a restaurant

that you particularly like the bread they have? Yeah, actually. You do? That's so funny. That's one of those questions that I'm like, huh? But no. Okay.

God, I know we just talked about chain restaurants and trash chain restaurants. Cheesecake Factory, they've got a sourdough bread. It is quite good. I will go to town on it. You know what? What? They also have a very good baked potato soup there. You dip that bread in the baked potato soup.

Oh, Brandy's eating tips. You ready, guys? I know no one ever thought to combine bread and soup before, but she's doing it. What about you? It will surprise you none at all. Oh. Mine is Mimi's Cafe. No, Mimi's Cafe doesn't even exist anymore.

Okay, let me tell you about the assortment of bread that you got at Mimi's Cafe. I thought that was a nursing home. You stop it. Are you ready? And a nice crusty baguette. You get yourself that corn chowder. Did you ever see anyone close to your age in that place? No, never.

You also got a carrot raisin bread, which was delicious. And then if you picked the right meal, it came accompanied with a muffin. That is so weird. Buttermilk spice? There is a reason that place is no longer in business. Okay. You know what place I've been craving? What?

The fucking Outback. I don't know why. Like, I'd never in my life have I been like,? What? The fucking Outback. I don't know why. Like, I never in my life have I been like, I want to go to Outback. They got those little loaves of like, it's like a wheat bread. Yeah, and the thing is, it looks like, oh, that's going to be too healthy. I don't like it. Tastes delicious. All I want to do is go everywhere right now.

I know. I do love, okay, here's the deal everywhere right now. I know. I do love. Okay, here's the deal. You said Texas Roadhouse. You do love their rolls. I do, but it's not the roll. Well, it's the butter. It's the butter.

Yeah, the cinnamon butter that they do. Okay. Yeah. So we got it to go for like a little family thing. Uh-huh. And they didn't include the butter. We got it all home. How many people did you kill that day?

We tried to eat those rolls with regular butter. And let me tell you, it's not the fucking same. It's just not. No, I believe it. The rolls. They don't stand alone. You know what? I am genuinely sorry.

Because I know how that is where it's like, I'm so excited. I'm going to eat this thing. And then, oh. A key ingredient is missing. That's right. Veronica H.S., do you ever worry that you're going to be really arrested for murder and you can't talk your way out of it? I'm constantly worried that I'm going to be arrested and I've never broken the law ever. Okay.

I know I've told the story about where I got home and there was a sheriff parked across the street from my house. Just like two days ago I was leaving my house and a sheriff turned onto my street as I was leaving and so I sat there at the stop

sign that I was stopped at and I pulled up my doorbell camera to see if the sheriff stopped in my house. What is with you? What? I'm just convinced that I'm going to be arrested and

have no idea it's coming. I've never broken the law ever. Give me a break. What have you done? I got a speeding ticket once. That's the worst thing I've ever done. And I paid it. I paid double so that it wouldn't go on my driving record. So you like to cover up your crimes.

That's right. Massive cover up. Yeah, I don't know. Oh, gosh. I probably shouldn't think about it because then I'll spin out with the anxiety. You know what is my actual fear? What? Is like not being arrested for murder. That's never been my thing.

But like what if I die doing something that other people deem like, and so there's no sympathy for my family. Sometimes I like to go for walks late at night, and then, of course, I get raped and murdered. Of course. Of course. The natural progression of being a woman walking around town with her vagina is that you get raped and murdered. Do you take your vagina with you when you're out on those walks?

Unfortunately, I do. She comes attached. And then, you know, my family's all boo-hoo because I'm so great. And then, you know, they say boo-hoo, you know. And then everybody in the news, people are like, well, she was out in it. She was out in it. She was out in it. She was out in it.

She was out in it. She was out in it. She was out in it. She brought her vagina out with her that night. Did you see that visor she was wearing? I don't wear my visor at night, Brandy. Jeez. That's for daytime activities only.

You want to know the latest thing? Gosh, I've told you about my visor. I've told you about Norm's Crocs. You know what we have now. What? So, okay. We love to walk the dogs. And we like to walk with like a seltzer water.

You know, just like a do-do-do or maybe like a little coffee or something. But it's tough when you've got the leash and you've got the, you know what I bought? What did you buy? It's a leash that hooks around your waist. No, you did not. And it comes with, it's not quite a fanning pack, but it's a leash that hooks around your waist. No, you did not. And it comes with, it's not quite a fanning pack, but it's a little pack and you can put treats. Christian.

You can put little bags, whatever you want. I won't tell you how to live your life. I legit see that shit sometimes. I'm like, who the fuck would buy that? You're looking at her. You have a belt leash? Sure do. It's mostly belt leash? Sure do. It's mostly

you see it with running. But you're going to see it with me and a seltzer water. And then when people judge me, I'll first of all say, can't judge me, I'm judging you. I'll be like, mmm. Don't you wish you had a seltzer right now?

Yeah. Boy, do you look stupid. Did you ever take like an adult beverage with you? Well, now I can. Yeah. See, Norman and I, we did a couple like months ago, we went on like a little neighborhood walk with Moscow mules. Yeah. It was very fancy. Yeah.

It was so fancy. You probably can't even understand. I can't even fathom how fancy it was. Uh-huh. So jealous of you and your belt leash. Fucking weirdo. We might get two. So you exit both?

Yeah. You didn't get Norm one? You only got one for yourself? No, only Norm has used it. Oh. Let me tell you something about feeling like poo-poo butter. Mm-hmm. I'm like, I'm not going to hold the leash.

I will go on the walk, and that'll be my activity. Wednesday, here's what I accomplished. I took a shower. Yeah. I made a big salad. Uh-huh. Walked the dogs, and then that was it. Yeah.

That was it for the day. Poo-poo butter. I just watched a ton of Survivor. I was going to say, did you watch Survivor? I watched so much Survivor. I'm starting to wonder if I could be quite good on the show. No! You think you could?

No. I wouldn't be able to handle the outdoors. See, I... Aside be able to handle the outdoors. I, see, I. Aside from the physical challenges. Yeah, see, I think I would be so bad on the physical challenges that they'd just vote me out immediately. Oh, yeah. I would vote myself out because I'd be like, did you guys see that giant bug over there? Vote me off the island. But you know what?

With that attitude and stuff, someone would make you their goat. They'd be like, I'm taking Brandy all the way to the island. But you know what? With that attitude and stuff, someone would make you their goat. They'd be like, I'm taking brandy all the way to the end. So then you'd be stuck out there for 39 days. And you're like, I know I'm not going to win the million dollars. Oh wait, then maybe you start making some big moves. I'd look so good, lose so much weight, eat just

rice for 39 days. Man, my swimsuit would be so dirty on that 39 day. And you've touched on the most important part. Would you wear your buff like a tube top? No! Why not?

No, absolutely not. I'd wear it just on my head. I sometimes think it's cute when they wear their buffs as like skirts. Yeah, that's super cute. Alright. I know a lot of people tune in for the Survivor talk. I sometimes think it's cute when they wear their buffs as like skirts. Skirts, yeah, that's super cute. Yeah. All right. I know a lot of people tune in for the survivor talk.

In excess of two people have mentioned it. Oh, TNA wants to know, do you know any good tongue twisters? Oh, God, you love tongue twisters. I do. Do them. Do them. A flea and a fly and a flu were in prison. So what could they do?

So the flea let us fly. So the fly let us flee. So they flew through the flaw and the flu. I messed up the last part. They flew through the flaw and the flu. You didn't mess that up. Didn't you say that? I think I messed up my.

Well, I don't know how. You know what? Okay. I'm sorry. This is not a question that someone in the Discord has asked. No, it's fine. You can. But my niece, she asked me a question this week, and it was about you.

Oh. Okay. So she asked me about you and my writing partner, Kitty. Yeah. She was like, if you could read either of their minds, who would you choose? And I was like, ugh. Isn't that kind of a scary question?

That is a scary question. I don't think I want to read anybody's minds. She said I had to because that's what I said too. She was sympathetic because she understood that you might not want to know someone else's private thoughts. I've already decided whose mind I want to read. Who? I want to read David's mind because David thinks I'm the greatest human being who has ever lived.

So, like, he would just think, like, amazing things about me all the time. You know what, though? What? Here's how that could go wrong. One day he has a negative thought and then you're just boom. Your whole world is shattered. Okay. So yesterday we're just working on our house.

Night cheese. This is big news. Should I tell my big news? Why not? We're moving. Woohoo! Woohoo! So we're getting our house ready to sell.

And so we're like painting trim and painting the bathroom and going through stuff and packing shit and whatever. And I had on shorts and a sweatshirt. And my hair was in the worst ponytail you've ever seen. And like I was just like sweaty and gross. I'm sure you looked cute as hell. And David looks at me and he's like, you are so beautiful. And then I was like, oh, thank you. That's so sweet.

And then like a little bit later, I like walked by a mirror. And I look and I'm like, you have lost your fucking mind. That's what I said to him. I'm like, nothing about me is beautiful today. And he's like, no, you're so beautiful. So, yeah, he's whose mind I would like to read because he just thinks I'm the best person on the universe. And I think that like you know I could hear some more of that.

Yeah. Some positive affirmations. I think all the negative things about myself. Alright so you'd choose nobody? You don't want to hear anybody's thoughts? Well no I really don't. That's fine. I'll let you be that I'll let that be your answer. Thank you. You're much more lenient than my niece was.

Ooh. DeVry Law School wants to know, my birthday is tomorrow. First of all, happy birthday. Happy birthday. So do you two have anything special you do for your birthdays, like traditions or anything? Do you have any birthday traditions? Yeah, it's super lame though. What is it?

I eat pizza for my birthday every year. It's my favorite food. Like every year for my birthday. That's what I do. I eat pizza. That's not lame. That's super lame. No, it's your favorite food.

It is. So yeah, you should eat your favorite food. Yeah, I always like the big thing is picking where I want the pizza from. Wait, do you mix it up? Yeah. Oh, oh, okay. I love all the pizzas. Where are you getting it from this year? You've only

got a few weeks to decide. Okay, so I did original pizza last year. There's a place called Original Pizza? Yeah, it's the food court place. You know this place. We ate it many a times growing Yeah. It's the food court place. You know this place. We ate it many a times growing up. It's the pizza in the food court. But they have like at the mall.

No. At Oak Park Mall. Original Pizza was the place where you get the pizza by the slice. Okay. Okay. Well, there's like a standalone one in Overland Park somewhere. Okay. Yeah. So that's what I picked for my birthday last year.

I was more of a pretzel bites gal. Yeah, pretzel bites, very good. The year before that I picked Minsky's. I don't know what I'm going to do this year. It's tough. It is tough.

You've got time. I do. I've got a little bit of time left. I'm never going to pick dominoes, Kristen. Okay. Fine. They were going to sponsor us, but then they heard that. And now we're screwed. What about you? I mean, not really.

You know why I wanted to ask that question? Because I thought maybe you'd have a cool answer. I know, I have the lamest answer. Well, no, I have the lamest answer, which is like, I can't really think of anything. I have a fun little family thing and it's always real nice. That's an exciting answer. Mandy asks, if you were teachers, college or primary, what would you want to teach? Art, music, math, English, creative writing. What would you teach? Oh, God.

I think I'd be a terrible teacher. I really do. You'd be a great journalism teacher. I don't know. Oh, my self-esteem issues are getting to me. Yeah, maybe I would teach high school journalism. Yeah. But that's, okay, that is a very hard, time-consuming job.

Like, it is a ridiculously time-consuming job to teach, like, newspaper or yearbook or any of that because it just takes so long to do those things. And I feel like, oh, here we go. I feel like people have no idea the time commitment. Yeah. And so, you know, you're basically getting paid pennies on the hour and people go into education for the money and that's why it's so rough you know

I would want to teach like sociology that was my favorite class in high school my favorite teacher that's what I would want to do you know what I would I would want to do. You know what I would actually probably want to do? What?

It's just some elementary level stuff. I feel like I could handle the math. I probably wouldn't do great with the math, but I could handle it. What grade would be the best in elementary school? Fourth grade. You think fourth grade no no you know what sixth grade sixth grade i was gonna say sixth grade yeah i think sixth grade are we just saying this because we had an awesome sixth grade teacher probably i don't know i feel like you're by sixth grade like the kids are old enough. They have their own personalities.

Hormones haven't totally taken over. Yeah. And they're kind of just old enough that they feel like they're kind of like doing some cool stuff academically. You know, that's what I remember from sixth grade. Same. We were learning. Yeah. We felt like pretty grown up.

Well, we were. Yeah, obviously. We're like the oldest kids in the school. We did like reports on different countries. Yeah. Okay. Brandy did Norway. I did Mexico.

So you can ask us anything about those two countries and we will know all the information. That's right. Yeah. From sixth grade. Built a state of church out of popsicle sticks. I built Chichen Itza. I forgot about that. Oh, I did it out of styrofoam. Oh, my gosh.

I forgot. I went to Chichen Itza a couple years ago and I didn't even think about how I built a model. You never even built it. Sixth grade. I think that's the way to go. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Let's quit this and do six. We could never get hired after this freaking podcast. No! Oh, yeah. We're just your nice little sixth grade teachers. We've talked about gobs of cum on our podcast. What do you think of intimidating people? You think that'd be a good look for me?

I don't think so. Shut up, Brittany! I'm super intimidated by you right now. I know you? I don't think so. Shut up, Brandi! I'm super intimidated by you right now. I know you are. I know you are. Worked out perfectly. Oh, no. Oh, death is here.

Take me now. Everyone, we just cut that. Sweet Green Reaper. We just cut that because it was disgusting, but I just coughed. Half of her lung flew out and was on the floor, guys. I wish. I wish I could spit up some of this stuff. Are you going to tell the people about the dream you had? Okay, I had a dream two nights in a row.

First of all, let's preface this by saying Kristen hates when people talk about their dreams. I do hate it. And yet, here I sit, making you listen to my dream stories, and I texted you about it, so you're getting double-dosed. My dream was just that I blew my nose in front of you. Which is my nightmare. I know, you

hate it. I cannot handle it. And I'm telling you, the whole time in the dream, I was like, Brandi hates this. Why am I doing this? I gotta stop. I gotta stop. And I kept doing it anyway. The worst thing someone can do. I don't know. There's two that are really bad.

Blow their nose in my car. Stop it. Blow their nose in my car. Blow their nose at the dinner table. Oh, God. Well, how have you survived so many meals with my dad? Because that's a staple.

At every meal, he blows his nose. We've tried discussing it with him. I cannot handle it. We've tried one of those zapper things you put on dogs. He's got some shot color for it. Yeah, that's disgusting. Yeah. Yep.

How do you feel about people sneezing in your car? I hate it. I almost kicked you out of my car. I know, but like a sneeze, you can't help a sneeze. I think I did it like twice. You did. I've not forgotten. Clearly not.

Man, your car was so wet that day. Oh, God! Anyway, should we do some... You know what? What? London sneezed right on my face. Didn't bother me at all. So you're a hypocrite.

No, she's my baby. You should love me just as much as you love your baby. And the next time I sneeze into your face, you should think I'm adorable. And the next time I sneeze into your face, you should think I'm adorable. Speaking of things that, like, aren't great at all, but, like, because you love something, doesn't matter. Kit, our adorable puppy. Yeah. You know what she likes to do.

What's that? Eat cat turds out of the litter box. Oh, no! Peanut loved the same thing. Oh no! Peanut loved the same thing. Oh no! The only thing that stopped her was the arthritis. She couldn't go up and down the stairs easily, so that's what stopped her. Yeah, a kid came running

up to me the other day with a snout full of kitty litter, and I was like, oh my god. Oh god. Oh, just like Peanut. Oh no. And we give these dogs great food, great treats, but you know, can't beat the homemade organic cat turds. Oh god, it's disgusting.

Well, have you ever tried it? Gross! You seem a little judgy. Join us for next month's bonus video where Brandi tries a cat turd. Oh my god. I can't even joke about it. Would you rather have a cat turd or popcorn salad? Popcorn salad. But you had to think about it for a second, right?

Oh my god. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm like having a physical response to this right now. I'm sorry. I take it all back. I take it all back. Let's talk about cookies instead. Okay, that sounds much better.

Time for Supreme Court Inductions. We're continuing with your names and favorite cookies. Are you alright? I will be fine. I need to take a drink. Let me tell you something. For Kyla's birthday, I made amazing brownies.

Then I went out and got mint chocolate chip ice cream, my favorite. Then I made homemade chocolate sauce. Oh, excuse me. Kind of gilding the lily a little bit. I guess. It was delicious. Oopsies, the brownies were a little undercooked. It was thrilling. That is a crime in my home. David will not eat them if they're undercooked, it was thrilling. That is a crime in my home. David will not eat them if they're undercooked. He does not like a gooey brownie. So I have to cook them for the max amount of time. And then he comes and looks at the edges

and he's like, that'll do. What is wrong with him? He won't eat cookie dough. He doesn't lick the batter. What? Yeah. Why? Does he remember home ec too well?

I think he must. He's like, raw eggs will kill me. Yeah, equals salmonella. Yeah. I think so. He won't eat cookie dough. In a way, that's great, isn't it? You can just keep a tub of cookie dough.

And be like, I know no one's going to come steal this from me. Mm-mm-mm. Okay. All right, let's do this. You're like, I know no one's going to come steal this from me. Okay, now that we've had a palate cleanser, we can talk about Supreme Court inductions. That's right. These are the good folks who have signed up for our Patreon at the $7 level. And these are their favorite cookies. D. Esquire. White chocolate macadamia.

Nut. I thought we could leave that. People know, you don't have to say, well, hmm. You do. I was about to say you don't have to say peanut nut. You can't just say pea. But nut's right there in the name. Then I thought about Brazil nut.

You can't just say Brazil. You can't just say Brazil. Anyway, sorry, D.S. Squire. Kaylee Worley. Brown butter and toffee chocolate chip. Oh, shit, that sounds good. Shannon M. White chocolate cranberry.

Natasha D. Oak wheel chocolate chuck. Leanne M. My great grandma's butter cookies. Caitlin Carr. Tagalong Butter Cookies. Caitlin Carr. Tagalong Girl Scout Cookies. Jessie Margaret. White Chocolate Chip Salted Caramel Cookies.

Okay. Allie Hansen. Triple Chocolate Chip Cookies by Paula Deen. Yikes. Yikes. Yikes. I feel the same way I have a Paula Deen recipe that I'm like. Brooks Vessels.

Chocolate chip. Madison Poston. Chocolate chip. Stephanie Hayes. Chocolate chip. No, she said sugar cookies. Sorry, I was really excited to shout chocolate chip. Christian.

Buck's feet. Book's feet. Book's feet. Okay. Oh. It's a Dutch or Flemish it's a dutch or flemish cookie i could not find a good translation all right google book for a picture okay that that's probably gonna pull up something disgusting but i will do it yeah i'm gonna google it google it oh no that okay i know yeah i've seen these cookies before.

They're quite good. Please describe it to us. Well, you kind of have to see. It's like a long kind of... Why are you looking at me like that? How hard is it to describe a cookie, Kristen? Okay, you know what? Take a look at these bad boys.

Take a look at me now. Oh, yeah. How do you describe them? Exactly. Anyway, they're kind of like long biscotti-like texture cookies that have been dipped in chocolate on either side. Yeah. Side to side. Uh-huh.

Dun-uh. Dun-uh. Aaron M. Chocolate chip. D. My mama's oatmeal raisin chocolate chip cookies. Bethany Reams. Heavily frosted sugar cookies found in your average grocery store bakery.

I also enjoy those. Katie Ryder. Ooh, strawberry shortcake cookies. What is that? Okay, okay. Tiffany Ridge. Star Crunch. And would we? Okay. Okay. Tiffany Ridge. Star Crunch. And would we call that a cookie? Alright. We'll

allow it. We'll allow it. Average Republican Turkey Neck. And they say let's go with Mitch McConnell's favorite cookie, the Mincemeat Special. Gross. What is that? I don't know. Should I Google that? Yeah. Google Mincemeat Special and see what comes up. No. Carrie McGuire. Should I Google that? Yeah. Google mincemeat specials.

No, I will not. Thumbs up. Carrie McGuire. My grandma's orange cookies. What's an orange cookie? That sounds good, too. We're going to have to get her grandma on the horn here. Welcome to the Supreme Court.

Thank you all for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a rating and a five-star review. Actually, leave us a five-star rating and a review.

That's the better way to say it. There we go. And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary, except for when I feel like poo-poo butter and I don't do anything. And I copy and paste from the

best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder, Articles for Oxygen, and the Austin American Statesman, and the Court Record. Oxygen, and the Austin American Statesman, and the court record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com, and don't forget to use the term poo-poo butter in your daily life. Any errors, like saying poo-poo butter, are of course ours. Please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff.