Let's Go To Court! - 179: A Mother-Daughter Bond & A Speech

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

Steven Robards was in rough shape. He’d been perfectly fine just hours earlier, but suddenly, the 38-year-old man’s arms and legs went stiff. He couldn’t swallow. His mouth foamed. By the time paramedics arrived at Steven’s apartment, there was little they could do. Steven died, apparently from a heart attack. For his daughter, Dorothy Marie Robards, his death was yet another tragedy in her already tumultuous life.  Then Kristin tells us about a high school student named Matthew Fraser, who caused a stir when he gave a hilarious, innuendo-laced speech to his fellow Bethel High School students. During a school assembly with nearly 600 students present, Matthew nominated his friend for student body vice president by telling them that his friend was “rock hard -- he’s firm in his pants, he’s firm in his shirt, his character is firm -- but most of all, his belief in you, the students of Bethel, is firm.” The school administrators were not amused. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Bethel School District v. Fraser,” FamousTrials.org “FIRE Starters: Bethel School District v. Fraser,” by Foundation for Individual Rights in Education on YouTube “Bethel School District v. Fraser,” entry on Wikipedia “Matthew Fraser speaks out on 15-year-old supreme court free speech decision,” by David Hudson for the Freedom Forum Institute In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Poisoning Daddy” by Skip Hollandsworth, Texas Monthly “Marie Robards: Deadly Daughter” by DeLani R. Bartlette, Medium “Death Play” episode Forensic Files YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a speech. And I'll be

talking about a bond between a mother and a daughter. I bet this is gonna be terrible. I must confess, I still believe. No. What is that? What? I must confess,

I still believe. Still believe. Yeah, how dare you? Anyway, I went ahead and read your sources down here on the pagey page and Skip Hollinsworth, Texas Monthly It's going to be a good one I'm excited Normally, when you start talking

You just tune it out You know, usually when you say that i think you're joking but i started singing christmas shoes for the second time last episode and you had no idea why because you had just tuned me out okay in my defense at that point we were taking questions from the discord i was reading questions it's It's a lot going on. A lot of multitasking for me, all right? Right off the top here, I have to issue two corrections. Oh, please do.

The first. Did you slander my good vagina? I have to just put it out there to be clear. Kristen did not receive vaginal rejuvenation surgery. That was just a little joke I was making, and I didn't mean for anyone to actually believe that she'd had that done. The funny thing about this is I don't give a shit if people think I had that done. But David and your aunt both heard me talking, and I guess they just believe I have the voice of an angel,

and everything I say is... 100% correct. That's right, and they completely believe that you have the natural origin of an angel surgery. Over the break. Yeah. My favorite part is that it's over the break. Anytime this podcast goes on break, don't believe the reason we tell you. Believe that I'm having my bathing suit zone reworked a little.

Resurfaced. Resurfaced like a tri-point. Anyway, do you have another correction? I do. I have a second correction. Boy. Via my mother. George Washington's teeth were not made of wood. They were made of bone and tusk and probably the teeth of slaves.

Oh. Yes. So my sincerest apologies. You don't sound very sincere. Yeah, I don't care. Oh, wow. Wow. Here's the deal.

He had terrible dental hygiene. By the time he was president, he had one tooth left in his mouth. And so they fashioned him a lovely set of dentures. And the rumors were always that they were made of wood. They were not. And I'm sorry for leading everyone astray. I wonder why the rumor was that they were made of wood. They were not. And I'm sorry for leading everyone astray. I wonder why the rumor was that they were made of wood. I don't know.

I don't know. Wouldn't you like to know? That would be a really bad thing, though, because, I mean, you think about that. Wood can't get wet. I don't know if you know this, Brynn. I don't know if you respect wood, but you're not supposed to get wood all wet. Oh, God, I don't have a single coaster have a single person give me those coasters Norm's gonna attack you is I'm sorry.

Oh, I'm sorry about saying you got measured over your teeth. Here. You b****. Well, how about that? How about that? Anyway, my sincerest apologies about messing up what George Washington's teeth were made of. So what my mom told me was that they were made of ivory and tusk and bone and then I looked it up and also they were made of human

teeth which likely came from enslaved people. That's terrible. Yeah. Breaking news. The founding fathers were terrible. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway. Way to start this podcast. You know what I've been thinking?

What? I've been thinking we're really bad at business because this afternoon we are going to do a Zoom hangout with all of our patrons at the $7 level. They already get the bonus episodes. They already get the stickers. They already get the autograph. They already get into the Discord.

They get so much stuff. Yeah. And tonight they're getting a Zoom call with us fine ladies. And you know what we're doing tonight? Making redemption popcorn. Yeah, we're not making fucking popcorn salad. No, we've got a very good popcorn recipe. I'm excited.

Yeah, you should be. I am. You're not going to vomit this time. I guarantee it. But no, I was thinking we're bad at business because we should probably plan these things out in advance. And then we could promote it on the previous. Yeah. Okay.

All right. Tuck that away for next time. I'm putting my business hat on and we're going to do that next time. Right now, though, what you can do, if you want to see us make that popcorn, you can head on over to our Patreon. Sign up at the $7 level or higher and you can watch the video of it. And if you want to just go for the gold, as they say, you sign up at the $10 level. That gets you ads. I'm sorry.

It gets you no ads. It gets you the opposite of ads. Gets you episodes a day early, ad free, 10% off on merch, and all the stuff that you find at the lower levels. Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo, doggies. I don't really know where to go now.

I can tell. Yeah. Woo! You sign up at that level, Brandi will rejuvenate your vag for you. No. She has no training, but she really believes in herself. Okay.

I've got a lot of crystals. I'm like Spencer Pratt. Oh God, I never. That's a deep cut reference. I was going to say, I never watched any of that stuff. You never watched The Hills?

No, I didn't. Okay. Spencer Pratt like went off the fucking deep end and all of a sudden was just like draped in crystals every day oh because they just made him you know feel better okay well hey boy we're up to a rock but enough talk of our wonderful patreon and crystals and spencer pratt let's talk about, I could just be like a, you know, skeleton here. There's just like a skin suit next to you.

Oh, gross. One of those little purses. Go back and listen to the Ed Gein episode. Yeah, how are your nipples doing? That's rude of you to ask. I will be getting them both rejuvenated in January. Is nipple rejuvenation a thing? I think people do get stuff done to their nipples.

Well, yeah, of course they get them done. Yeah, you know. What are you doing? No one can see these weird gestures. You know, they start pointing down, people get them pointed back up. Okay. Like a nipple tuck, if you want. Everybody, Brandy made a gesture like she had two little pepperonis on her boobs and she was just rotating them like dials.

Anyway, are you going to tell us about a mother and daughter bond? I am. Or not? Yes, I am. Or not. Yes, I am. Couple of shout outs to my sweet friend and client and loyal listener of this podcast, Doreen.

Yes! She is one of our earliest supporters. Yeah. She is recovering from pneumonia right now. Oh no. She's been really sick

but she recommended this case. Okay. So I thought maybe if she heard it that would make her feel better. Oh, you think this podcast cures pneumonia? All right. Well, you claim that makes your hair longer and shinier and your teeth whiter.

So why can't it cure pneumonia? Also, this podcast cures COVID. No, don't people that. Also, shoutiest of shout outs. Oh, okay. From the roofiest of rooftops. To Skip Hollinsworth. Our boy, Skip, over at Texas Monthly, wrote a very in-depth article on this case.

Almost all of this comes from that because every other source. Uh-huh. They all cite him. Yes. He never half-asses it. He's the best in the bigs. He is. Yeah.

I was like, oh, good. Here's another article. And it's just rephrasing all of the stuff from his article. Yeah. So let's. Yeah. Let's hear it for the boy. Skip Hollinsworth.

Let's give the boy a hand. And. Marie Robards stood in the doorway of the apartment that she shared with her father, paralyzed with shock and fear. She watched as the paramedics tried to intubate her father. She watched as he foamed at the mouth. She watched as his body stiffened and he fought for air, no longer even blinking. Finally, Sandra Hudgens, her father's girlfriend, pulled Marie into a hug, her face pressed against her chest so that the 16-year-old girl couldn't watch her father die. 38-year-old Stephen Robard's death seemed to come out of nowhere. That Wednesday

evening, February 18th, 1993, had been pretty run-of-the-mill. Stephen and Marie had eaten Mexican takeout for dinner, and then Stephen had gone to church for Wednesday night service like he always did. He had returned home to his apartment in Fort Worth, Texas, less than an hour later, though, complaining of stomach pains. A short time later, Stephen began vomiting uncontrollably. And so Marie ran to get his girlfriend, Sandra, who lived in the same apartment complex. She told Sandra that her dad wasn't feeling well.

In the short time it took Sandra to get to Stephen, though, he was well beyond not feeling well. Stephen told Sandra that he couldn't swallow, that his throat felt like it was closing up, and that his arms and legs felt stiff. and that his arms and legs felt stiff. Sandra watched in horror as saliva and blood foamed around his mouth. She called 911, but it was too late.

Stephen was dead a short time later. The medical examiner later determined that Stephen Robard' cause of death was a heart attack. The loss of a father at such a delicate age would be a crushing blow to any teenage girl. But to those close to Marie, it seemed even more devastating as she'd already been through so much. Her life had been tumultuous for years, and now it finally seemed like she'd been settling in. Steve Robards and Beth Lomer, who were Marie's parents, were high school sweethearts. They had been together from a young age. They were both tall and beautiful, and they had actually gotten married in 1974 when Beth was 18. I think Stephen was maybe a year or two older than Beth.

They got married right as Stephen left for a four-year tour of duty in the Navy. Oh, shit. While he was serving in the Navy, Beth got pregnant and gave birth to their only child, Dorothy Marie Robards, who went by Marie. They moved around a lot. They were stationed in San Diego for a while, Florida for a while, and then finally they wound up back in Fort Worth, which is the area that they were from originally. Thus, back in Fort Worth. Back in, yeah, exactly.

I like to just double explain it, you know, so everybody falls along fine. What is this green door, though? Exactly. Sorry, didn't mean to make you choke on your, what is that, Bahama Mama? Bahama Mama G Fuel. This podcast is not sponsored by G Fuel, but I would love for it to be. What is, G Fuel seems like. It's a sugar-free, zero-calorie energy drink.

It's a powder that you mix with your water. Are you sure this isn't sponsored? Because it sounds like you're a sponsor to tell me this. It tastes delicious. All right, all right. I'm going to stick to my iced coffees. So, obviously, Stephen and Beth had gotten married pretty young, and then he left for the Navy. And it just didn't lend itself to, you know, a great relationship.

Their marriage was rocky. And Stephen seemed to battle with depression, which at the time was not something that was. Depression didn't exist in the 80s. Right. Or was, yeah, it wasn't talked about. No, it was invented. And Beth didn't really know what to do with Stephen when he was having bouts of depression. She just, like, didn't understand why he couldn't get out of bed, didn't understand why he said that he didn't see a point in going on.

Like, she just didn't get it. Yeah. Because there was no talk around mental health. Right. And so they separated. Did she try telling him to cheer up? Probably. Just a lot of toxic positivity.

Yeah, she sang that song. Cheer up, Charlie. What? That's from Willy Wonka. Oh. Sounds about as good as Christmas shoes. This poor kid's really sad because his grandparents are in bed and there's holes in their roof and they have no money. And he wants to just go to a chocolate factory.

It's fine. So his mom sings that song to him and everything's fine. Well, it's a lesson for us all. It's all up in the old noggin, as they say. Right. All up in the old noggin, as they say. So by 1980, Stephen and Beth separated. Beth moved out, took Marie with her.

And Marie was only like three years old at this point. By 1981, Beth had remarried. She'd met this man who was um had also served in the navy they'd actually met when stephen was stationed in florida oh this guy frank burroughs was also stationed there at this time but there was no hanky panky going on i see that look, Kristen. Just some long glances over the shrubs. There was for sure hanky-panky going on. Maybe not. Maybe just some looks. Maybe like a little light touching.

Oh, you're so funny. Just like a little... I mean, by this... Anyway, they're back in Texas by now, but she marries this guy that she'd met in florida but don't worry there was no overlapping sure everyone that was the weirdest wink i've ever received and you're all lucky to have not seen it

i'm a terrible wink you really are like a pirate your whole face i know i'm a terrible winker. Do it again. Arr. All you need is a parrot and the look is complete. Anyway, Beth's official statement on Frank was that there was nothing between Frank and her when they were in Texas. They were just friends. But after her divorce from Stephen, he relocated to Texas and they thought they'd try out a relationship and then they got married.

He was also recently divorced and had a young son. So together they had, you know, two kids. It was a blended family. Yada, yada, yada. You get the idea. I don't. Can you explain explain maybe with a theme song here's the story there we go i was like is she gonna do it a lovely lady who definitely had an affair. Anyway, Marie really, really bonded with Frank. She saw him as her father figure.

At this point, she really only saw Stephen a couple times a month. She'd go over for like an evening on a weekend every other week or something like that. And so she called Frank Burroughs dad and she called Stephen Robards, her biological dad, Stephen dad. Oh, ouch. Yeah. Yeah. Marie was like the best kid by all accounts. She was like a really good student and she had a great relationship with her mother. But as she got into adolescence,

her relationship with her mother became a point of contention between her mother and Frank. There was like a weird dynamic of jealousy, like with Beth, are you going to pick spending time with your daughter? Are you going to pick spending time with me? And there was a weird jealousy between Frank and Marie. And it just it started to cause problems. And there are some people that were like looked at their relationship and thought Marie and Beth were too close. But it's a mother and daughter. Like what do you mean too close? Like what was going on?

Nothing. Nothing weird. Just that they would finish each other's sentences. They were very affectionate. They just had a very strong mother-daughter bond. And because of that bond, it caused problems between Frank and Beth and Frank and Marie. And it got to the point as Marie got older that she would pick fights with Frank sometimes or, you know, it just caused a big point of contention in their family. Right.

And then something happened when Marie was in high school. She came home. It was like the summer. It was between I think it was between her sophomore and junior year. She came home one day when nobody knew she was going to be home and she found Frank in bed with another woman. Oh, shit. And so she was devastated by this. This was the man that she saw as her father. And then she had to go to her mom and tell her what she had discovered. And her mom was like, you know, I'm really sorry that you had to find that. But Frank and I love each other and and we're going to work this out.

And Marie didn't understand that. She didn't understand why her mom wouldn't just leave Frank. She she just didn't understand. And in Beth's words, she blamed herself for the affair at the time. She was working a lot of hours at the ER. And she said, this is a quote from her. He felt neglected because of all the time I was spending with my own job. And this was his way of reacting.

Boy, that's a real generous. Yeah. Okay. So Marie's devastated by this. This man that she sees as her father has betrayed her mother, which feels like a betrayal to her. And then when she goes to her mother and is like expecting her mother to be like, that's it, we're leaving. She doesn't. She's like, I'm going to stay with this man.

We're going to work this out. We love each other. Yeah. And so she just kind of started to withdraw from the family and she started to act out and it just caused more problems. And one day she went to Beth and she said, I just can't stand being in this house. I can't stand this. I can't stand the way that it feels. I can't think about Frank. I can't I can't handle this dynamic. And she said to Beth, I think you should divorce him. And Beth was like, well, well, that's not going to happen. I love him. Right. And so Marie looked at her mother and said, I have to leave then. I can't stay here.

And so Beth arranged for Marie to go live with her parents in Fort Worth. So she moved to Fort Worth. She didn't go live with her dad? No. That's kind of interesting. I think it's very odd. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So she goes to live with the grandparents.

Yeah. She goes to live with the grandparents. She gets enrolled at a new high school. But like she's gone like five days. And she has like a small amount of spending money. And she spends it all on a bus ticket back to Granbury, Texas, which is I don't know how far away. Forty five minutes, I think, if I would have kept reading my notes. Very good.

She spends all of her money on a cab ride back to Granbury and she shows back up at her mother and Frank's house and she's like, I'm sorry, I want to come back home. But Frank wouldn't allow it. Oh. Frank was a super strict disciplinarian, and he had established these rules in their house. And one of them was that if Marie or his son ever decided to move out and live with the other parent, their other parent, or another family member, they were not allowed to come back home. So he said that the reason for this rule is because he didn't want their kids who had come from divorced homes to play the parents against each other like, oh, I'm going to

go live at mom's or, oh, I'm going to go live at dad's. So that was the reason for this rule. And they had enforced it just a short time earlier when Frank's son had gone to live with his mother and then wanted to come back. Frank wouldn't allow it. And so now Frank was like. That's bullshit. I agree. I think this is such bullshit.

Now, if you get into the situation and then you feel that the kid is playing you, then you address it. But you don't create these weird rules before the bad thing happens. So Marie shows back up at the house and Beth's like, of course, you know, I'm so sorry. I know you're going through a really tough time. But Frank says no. Frank says we have to follow the rule. What about the rules imposed on Frank? Like, don't cheat on your spouse.

Yeah, don't have an affair. Beth recalls this and said it was just terrible. The whole family was standing outside the house just crying and screaming at each other. And Marie was just begging for them to let her come back home and just crying. And Frank was shouting at her, you know the rule and you can't break it. And then he looked at Beth and was like, the same thing applied to my son and now it must apply to her. And Beth said she felt like she had to make a choice in that moment between Frank and Marie.

And she chose her cheating husband. And she chose Frank. Cool. She called Stephen and said, Marie needs to come live with you, and so that's what happened. Marie went and lived with Stephen in his one bedroom apartment. Oh, wow. So by this time, it's like 1992, 1993.

And Stephen had actually done a pretty good job of like getting his life together. He'd gotten help for his mental illness, whatever he was facing, his depression, whatever. He was on medication. He'd gotten a really good job as a mail carrier for the postal service he had a steady girlfriend that he'd met at a parents without partners meeting that lived in the same apartment complex as soon as marie came to live with him he applied for a two-bedroom apartment they just had to wait for one to open up and in the meantime mar Marie had to sleep on like a rollaway bed in the dining room area. But for Stephen, this was like the moment that he'd waited for. He like had gotten his life together. Now he got to have his daughter in his life like full time. And it was just perfect. But Marie had a terrible time adjusting. According to Beth,

Marie sent her letters all the time talking about how much she hated her new school. It was a much bigger high school than where she'd previously gone and that she felt like she'd just been thrown into this house with her dad and her dad didn't have any idea how to take care of her or take care of a household. He didn't really know how to clean. He didn't have like stuffed food in the kitchen and stuff to make dinner. And so they were just like trying to figure out how to live together every day. Yeah, that sounds like a really rough adjustment. Yeah, super rough adjustment. Well, they probably did not need to Ugh. Yeah, it's terrible. But Stephen did everything he could to try and make Marie feel comfortable.

He was constantly anxious that, you know, she was unhappy or she was depressed or that, you know, she wasn't fitting in or didn't have everything she needed. And so he tried to entertain her as much as he could. He took her out to dinner. He took her to the movies. But still, she was constantly like making long distance phone calls back to her mom and begging to come home just because that's the life she knew. Yeah. But Beth kept telling her, no, no, no, you can't come back. You can't come back. no you can't come back you can't come back and even at one point Marie wrote Beth a letter that said that she was feeling suicidal and Beth responded to her by saying your life's too precious for you to say things like that

you've just got to tough this out. Oh, boy. Mm-hmm. She said at the time she just really thought Marie was being overdramatic. You know the way teenagers can be. Oh, gosh. I'm really struggling with trying to be like, it was the 80s. Mm-hmm. But also, like, how could you hear your child?

Your daughter writes you a letter and says, I hate this. I want to come home. I'm suicidal. And you're like, oh, just tough it out, sweetie. Yeah, you, I mean, even if you don't say come back home, you can at least say, talk to the dad and say, I think she needs to be in counseling. Yeah, something. Yeah. Yeah. Or counterpoint, she needs to be in counseling. Yeah, something. Yeah. Yeah.

Or counterpoint, tell her to tough it out. We'll see how that works out for us. Yeah, yeah. Good, good, good. So a few months went by and Beth was like, I was right the whole time because Marie really seemed to settle into her life in her new school. She was doing great in school. She had straight A's. She won some kind of award for keyboarding. Okay. Wait, is this like keyboarding like music or like typing? No, like typing. Oh, that's so lame. Oh, that's so lame. Oh, God.

And by all accounts, she really seemed to settle in, get more comfortable in her dad's apartment. She developed a relationship with Sandra, Stephen's girlfriend. At Christmastime, they wrapped presents together. And Sandra described her as, like, the teenager everyone would want. Just a good kid. So it seemed just as Marie was getting settled into this life with her father and adjusting to the school that she had once hated, this smart, beautiful girl was dealt yet another devastating blow with the sudden loss of her father.

Oh. Remember, he died at the beginning of the sudden loss of her father. Oh. Remember, he died at the beginning of the story. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You mean when she murdered him? Did she? Yeah, she for sure did. It's a brand new case.

It's all terrible. Also, it seems like someone's perfect, so they're usually the one. People recall that at Stephen's funeral, Marie seemed like she was in shock. She seemed dazed. She just kind of stood by the grave with like a blank look on her face. look on her face. And then a short time after that, Beth pulled her aside and said that she was leaving Frank. She was going to take Marie and they were going to move to Florida. And Beth recalls Marie's response to that as being surprising to her. She seemed like incredulous. She was like, you had this plan all along to take

me to Florida and you haven't said anything. And Beth's like, yeah, you know, I was just trying to get everything lined up. I got a job. I found us somewhere to live. And she said that Marie just had this like the color drain from her face. It seemed like she was having trouble breathing and Beth just thought that it was just like you know oh my gosh this is just another thing I'm piling on top of her. She didn't think it was like oh my gosh I killed my dad for no

reason. Yeah maybe. So by the end of March 1993 Marie and Beth had relocated to Panama City, Florida. Beth had a job as an administrative assistant at the State Division of Motor Vehicles. Marie enrolled in the high school there, but she was having a really tough time. She was depressed. There were lots of days

that she couldn't get out of bed and Beth just didn't understand it. Okay, Beth, at some point you got to learn. She was just worried. She worried that whatever that thing that Stephen had had, it had just rubbed off on Marie.

Rubbed off? Yeah. You know, Stephen used to have trouble getting out of bed and he had dark days and now Marie, look at her. She's doing the same thing.

Should have gotten that depression vaccine. But this time she sent Marie to counseling. Oh, not a moment too soon. Which she really seemed to think was helping. Marie seemed to be reacting really well to therapy. And then in June, Frank showed up in Florida. And Frank and Beth were going to work things out. No, there are so many other dudes out there.

And so Beth sat Marie down. She's like, this is going to be so great this time, I promise. We're really going to work hard on our marriage. Everything is going to be great. And Marie was like, OK, if you say so, I'll, you know, I'll go into this with an open mind. Yeah. I mean, what is she going to say? Yeah.

OK. yeah I mean what is she gonna say yeah okay but then like two weeks later Marie was like changing the sheets on her parents bed or something like that and like inside of Frank's pillowcase was a note from another woman he kept it I'm focusing

on the wrong thing yes kept it in the pillowcase in the pillowcase and so fucking Marie had to go to Beth and be like, look at this. You do not have to put up with this. And Beth was like, you know, you don't understand. This is my husband. I love him very much.

And she was like, fine. I'm surprised she said anything. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly. But finally Marie was like, fine. If you want to put up with this, you can. But I don't have to.

I miss Texas. I'm going home. How old was she at this point? She was 17. Whoa. And so she called Stephen's parents and asked them if she could come live with them in Mansfield, Texas. And they were like, of course, you're always welcome here. And so she did. She relocated to Mansfield, Texas, which is part of Fort Worth, I believe.

And she enrolled in the high school there. And she was a perfect student. She got straight A's. She joined the volleyball team. She was on the yearbook. She was like. there. And she was a perfect student. She got straight A's. She joined the volleyball team. She was on the yearbook. She was like. Oh, so she was cool. Let me see where I said that.

Yeah, no. Nowhere. We knew. We knew. If you're on the yearbook, you're pretty cool. She was like this like mysterious girl, though. The new girl who just like shows up and is involved in everything and just looks chic and beautiful all the time. Yeah.

Was she born with it? Was she a murderer? You just have a lot of questions. Students seem to be almost mystified by how elegant Marie was because she was pretty reserved. She wasn't super outgoing, but she was involved in stuff. And hot, right? Yeah, she was pretty reserved. She wasn't super outgoing, but she was, you know, involved in stuff. And hot, right? I mean, that's. Yeah, she was super hot.

All you have to say is she was hot. Yes, she was super hot. We get the picture. Yes. So everybody just kind of like wondered what her story was. And she seemed very unwilling to talk about her family life, her past, any of that. But there was this girl, Stacy, who was like one of the most popular girls in the senior class. She was like voted most humorous.

Yeah, don't point to yourself. But she had come from a very tumultuous background herself. She'd been abused as a young girl. She'd gone through a lot of therapy, seen a lot of psychologists. And she thought just looking at Marie and the way she carried herself, that she looked like someone who had also been through a lot of therapy, someone who had been through a lot of stuff, someone who was carrying a secret. And she wanted to get to the bottom of it. and she wanted to get to the bottom of it. And so she befriended her.

Wait, like, ew, I'm getting creeped out here. She just had, just the way she carried herself, Stacey was like, I know, I know that girl. I know that girl has some kind of past. I know, I know it and I want to know what it is. And they became really good friends, like best friends. They started doing everything together. They got fake IDs together, went into town to go to the bars. When they went to a country western bar.

What happened? Marie wore these tight jeans and this button-up shirt, and everybody called her cowboy barbie oh okay she was quite popular at the bar they were writing partners on the yearbook staff so again super super cool brandy just because you weren't cool enough to be on yearbook doesn't mean you have to be all jealous stacy liked to do the interviews and Marie liked to write the stories. So together, perfect. No, I disagree. That's not the way it should be done.

I don't mean to tell you how to live your life, ladies. Anyway, are you going to admit you're jealous? I'm not jealous. It's okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead and admit it. I'm all set, thanks's okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead and admit it. I'm all set. Thanks.

Anyway, moving on. Anyway, they got very close. Did a lot of stuff together. And then one night in January 1994 was their senior year of high school. And they were studying Hamlet. senior year of high school, and they were studying Hamlet. They were reading through the play when they came upon this, I don't know, Hamlet, and I'm sorry if you do, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners do, because I'm offended already.

There's this big speech that Claudius does, and he's like wondering if he can ever repent, whatever. And this is the passage that they read. My fault is past. But oh, what form of prayer can serve my turn? Forgive me my foul murder. That cannot be since I'm still possessed of those effects for which I did the murder. Did you nod off when I was reading Shakespeare?

Fun fact. You know the one reason I never double majored in English? Because you hate Shakespeare? Yeah. You had to take a Shakespeare class and I was like, nope. Out. Not for me. Goodbye.

So Stacey reads this passage aloud and she's just like in the book, like reading it. And she's like, oh my gosh, isn't that so cool how that's written she's like really into it only she looks up and she sees marie like across the table from her and marie is like as white as a ghost and she's just like shaking and stacy's like what's up yeah and mar Marie looks at her and she goes, Stacey, do you think people can go through life without a conscience? And Stacey's like, I don't know. Like, I mean, I think there are people who can, like, look someone in their eye and then just kill someone in cold blood. Those people don't seem to have a conscience.

And like once she said that, Marie got up out of her chair that she was sitting in. She like backed against the wall and then like did that thing where you like slide down the wall and you like sit on the floor. You don't know what I'm talking about? No, I know exactly what you're talking about. And you know what I'm talking about. No, I know exactly what you're talking about. And you know what? I only remember it happening in like 80s and 90s movies. Well, it's the 90s.

Did this really happen? It really happened! According to Stacey. Okay! That was a move people did. You don't see it today. So Marie gets up, stands against the wall, and then just collapses to a heap on the floor. Young people are going to be like, she did what now? But the rest of us, we can all picture it like, oh, yeah, this is what you do when life has you down.

You back up against a wall and you scoot your butt down. That's exactly right. So she just like is on the floor and she's starting to cry. And Stacey's like, Marie, what's the matter? And Marie goes, guess. Oh, OK. floor and she's starting to cry and stacy's like marie what's the matter and marie goes guess okay no we're not gonna guess and stacy thought of the worst thing that could possibly be going on with a 17 year old girl she goes oh my god you're pregnant Mm-hmm. And Marie's like, no. And she goes, did you wreck your grandparents' car? And Marie says, no.

And then Stacey goes, oh, my God, did you kill somebody? And Marie just started sobbing, and she nodded her head, and she said, my father. I poisoned my father. And then Marie walked Stacy through how one day she'd been in chemistry class and they were talking about different poisons. Oh, no. And the teacher had a bottle of poison out on the table. It was like, as described in this article, it was like a cartoon bottle of poison. Like a big bottle, big brown bottle with a skull and crossbones on it and a cork top.

And while the teacher had their back turned, she went up to it and poured a small amount of it out into a napkin, folded it up and put it in her pocket. Oh, my God. And then that night when she got home, she mixed it in her dad's refried beans. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. And then that night, obviously, we already know. I mean, everybody else does. Kristen has already forgotten the beginning of the story.

New to me. Stephen Robards died after eating his Mexican takeout. After confessing this. This has been like a year now. A year has passed. Yeah. After confessing this to Stacey, Marie begged her to not tell anyone. She's like, you are the only person that knows.

Please keep my secret. Don't tell anyone. And Stacey thought about it. But that night she went home and she told her mom. Good for her. What? Yeah, I mean, that's a good move. Tell your mom. What?

That is a good move. Yeah, so Stacey goes and tells her mom, Libby, and she's like, oh, my gosh. Surely this is not the truth. Surely Marie has made this up or, you know, is like trying to get attention or whatever. But Stacey's like, no, no, I'm pretty sure this is real. She even told me like what she gave him and how he died. And so Libby, who worked in some kind of like nurse educator or something, she decides to call the poison hotline.

She calls the poison hotline and she's like, hey, if someone gave someone this poison. Okay, I have to say, I watched an episode of Forensic Files for this. And they specifically don't name the poison on the episode. They're trying to be responsible. Skip Hollinsworth names it. He gives you all the deets.

He names it in the article. I was really torn on what I was going to do. I don't think I're trying to be responsible. Skip Hollinsworth names it. He gives you all the deets. He names it in the article. I was really torn on what I was going to do. I don't think I'm going to name it. Okay. So she calls the poison hotline. It was popcorn salad. Yeah. Killed a man.

Called the poison hotline, and she was like, if someone was given this poison, could it have these effects? And describes what Stacey described that Maria told her. And the person on the line was like, yeah, that's exactly what would happen. Why are you asking? Yeah, if I were on the line, I'd be like, are you calling for tips? This is not a tip line. And so Stacey's mom, who had it going on, was just like, no reason, asking for a friend and just like hung up.

And then she didn't call the police. Well, come on, Libby. She, this is so weird to me. So she interviewed, so Skip Hollingsworth interviewed her. And this is what he says. He said, So she decided not to call the police and leave that to Stacey to carry around this information and decide if she wanted to call them. Ma'am, are you stupid? I think that's the most ridiculous thing ever.

That's the most irresponsible thing ever. Yeah. Oh, my daughter who's been through a ton of trauma, you know what she needs? She needs a murder on her conscience. Yeah. I'll let that rest with the child. That's cool. Mm-hmm.

And so Stacey was just like, didn't know what she should do. And so Stacey was just, like, didn't know what she should do. She went to, like, the high school counselor, and she talked about, like, a friend of a friend who told her something and wouldn't go into too much specifics and tried to get some guidance there. She confided in a friend of hers who had already graduated and was like, hey, if you knew something, what would you do? But she didn't really know what to do, and no one seemed to believe the story that she was telling yeah like she didn't want to get too detailed and so it just seemed vague and like people were like oh my gosh like you're just lying you're just making stuff up you need a reality check like yeah and so she started having nightmares she had nightmares that she was being chased by marie through a forest and she could like feel her breathing on the back of her neck.

Yeah. And then she had dreams about Marie's dad that he was calling to her from the grave asking her to help him. Oh, God. She stopped like going to class because she didn't want to see Marie anymore. Well, God. She stopped, like, going to class because she didn't want to see Marie anymore. Well, no kidding. She started, like, drinking on the weekends because she just didn't know how to, like, how to handle this.

She didn't know, like, she kept having nightmares of just the trauma that she was carrying around from this giant secret. A yearbook staff member drinking. That's unusual. We were all pretty straight edge. Finally, like after weeks and weeks and weeks of carrying around this secret, she went to her school's like guidance counselor and she asked the counselor to call the police with her and report what she knew about Stephen Robard's death. And so they did.

But the police were like, what is this? Like, this wasn't, there's no mystery here. This guy died of a heart attack. This case is closed. Like, are we going to believe some 17-year-old girl? And so, I don't know. Enough information got to the right person that they were like, okay, we have some tissue samples still left from his autopsy. Why don't we test them and see if we can corroborate her story?

See if we can find traces of this poison in there. if we can find traces of this poison in there. So when they went to go get these preserved samples, they were like days away from like the date that they would destroy them. So like, you know, there's like a expiration date, essentially, like, hey, this this case, there's nothing in question here. There's nothing open here. So on this day, we destroy these samples. Right.

They were like just a couple of days away from that. And they're like, oh, great. Let's take those samples. Just a couple days away from that. And they're like, oh, great. Let's take those samples. Well, then they had to find a lab that had the testing equipment required to test for this specific poison. It was a very specific type of machinery. It was called a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer.

Oh, really? Shut up. Gas chromatograph mass spectrometer. Yeah, I've got one. It's a $150,000 piece of equipment. Yeah, I'm very rich. And it did this very specialized form of testing that would find if this specific poison was in the blood or the tissue. was in the blood or the tissue.

It took them months to just find a laboratory that had this machinery to send this tissue sample off to. And then it took like five months to get any test results back. Wow. So it seems that maybe nobody was like really like nudging this along because it was just the word of a 17 year old girl. And they're like, is there really anything to this? Also, I would add, I bet just just from having worked in a bureaucracy for a little while myself, you don't want to reopen a case. Yeah. The case is closed. That's beautiful. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So like months are going by. The girls have graduated high school at this point. They're in college. And Stacey is second guessing herself as time passes. She's like, oh my gosh, what did I do? Should I have called? Should I not have called? Did I do the right thing?

Her life is like falling apart. She checks herself in to like a psychiatric treatment center because she just feels like she can't hold it together anymore. Meanwhile, Marie is just like. Yes, she enrolled at the University of Texas in Austin, majoring in pathology. Oh, no, no, no. Marie. A little too on the nose for me. Yeah.

Marie and Stacey, like, never spoke again. I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. again. I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Finally, like eight months, nine months after she called the police, Stacey got a call in her dorm room one night from a police detective who said the test results came back. Stephen Robard had 28 times the lethal amount of this specific poison in his blood, and he'd be there the next morning to take her statement. Oh, shit.

Mm-hmm. Where was Stacey at school? She went to Sam Houston State University in Huntsville, Texas. Yeah. There's a big prison there in Huntsville. What's she majoring in? I don't know. Damn it.

Brandy. I'm sorry. I don't know. Damn it. Brandy. I'm sorry. I don't know that part. Hmm. So Stacey gets that call. She's in her dorm room. She gets, she's like so stressed and so relieved at the same point. She's like a flood of emotions.

She said she got out of bed and went to the vending machine and ate five Snickers bars. Okay. I gotta say. I gotta say. I've never ate five Snickers bars. Okay, I gotta say, I gotta say, I've never been a Snickers person. I like a Snickers. Well, of course you do. here's how you do it.

Oh my God. You know, there's a special way to eat it. You unwrap it first, in my opinion. you get the, you get the,

no, you don't unwrap it. You do unwrap them first, yeah. No, actually, you don't do that first. Listen to me. Let me guess, you put it in the freezer? Yeah, you get the Snickers minis. You gotta get the minis. The minis. I understand.

Okay. You throw those in the freezer. Okay. And then you take one out. You unwrap it. Okay? You take that little frozen sucker and stick that right in there. Like chewing tobacco? Chewing tobacco! You stick that right in there. Like chewy tobacco? Like chewed tobacco.

Yeah, it's just like a little treat you just carry around with you. This is why I love trick-or-treating with you. You and I had very different tastes and candy. Yeah. I'm more of a nutless gal myself. So they get the test results back. He's got 28 times the lethal amount of this poison in him. And so they head off to Austin.

They arrest Marie. And she didn't ask any questions. She surrendered without incident. They took her back to the Austin police station and she immediately confessed to the killing. Yeah. She told them exactly what she'd done and how she'd done it. And the detective was like, was your father abusing you? No. And she said, no, sir.

And the detective asked if Stephen had ever done anything to her that he shouldn't have. And again, Marie said, no. And then the detective asked her why she had done it, and she said, because it was the only way I could go back home. And the detective said, who did you want to go back home to? And she said, my mom. I just wanted to be with my mom. Ugh, I think this is so sad.

Yeah. Yeah, she thought this was the only way that she could get to live with her mom again. After her arrest, Marie was let out on bond, and she went back and she lived with her mom and Frank while she awaited trial. She got a job waitressing at TGI Fridays. Hey! You know, I've got a lot in common with this murder. Yearbook staff, waitress at TGI Fridays. Beautiful beyond measure.

So this is how beautiful she was. While she was working as a waitress at TGI Fridays, like a film crew came in to shoot a commercial there. And they were like, you, you must be in the commercial. Oh, damn it. So she was like, come on in for the sizzling cheese. Yes. So she was like in the commercial serving stuff to customers. There really was sizzling chicken and cheese. Yes, sizzling chicken and cheese. Yeah, I remember it.

I thought it looked like the grossest thing. I thought it looked like the best thing we served. I don't like chicken and cheese together, though. What? I don't think cheese belongs on chicken. Well, it's not fish. That's even worse. You're right.

Exactly. Yeah, that's terrible. You're right. Yeah, I love cheese. You know right. Yeah, I love cheese. You know this about me. I know. There are a few things it doesn't belong on. It doesn't belong on fish.

It doesn't belong on chicken. It doesn't belong on barbecue. I feel very strongly about this. All right. All right. You've always been a strange one. Wait, so like, go ahead. You have more questions about my cheese and chicken?

Okay. Okay. The Z-Man sandwich at Joe's KC. No cheese. Would you shut it for just a second? Drink your G Fuel. Hashtag not sponsored anyway. Okay. It's delicious. Hashtag not sponsored anyway. Okay.

It's delicious. It's got brisket. It's got an onion ring. It's got provolone cheese. It's got barbecue sauce. It's like a wonderful sandwich. All over the Food Network. It's, you know, a big deal.

I think Anthony Bourdain said something good about it. Yeah. But you. Hold the cheese. No. The sandwich is great. No cheese. You can continue, but I don't like it.

So Marie had received a $60,000 payout from her father's life insurance. When we were in high school and they had Jesus. you remember the best thing the cafeteria had? It was like chicken tenders and fries. Yeah, and people would get nacho cheese to dip it in. Disgusting.

You never did that? No. Gross. Gross. Okay. I was trying to catch you in a lie. No. No. You never did that? Never did that. I did it. Gross. Gross. Okay. I was trying to catch you in a lie. No. No.

You never did that? Never did that. I did it. Gross. Like every day. You're gross. All right. All right.

Yeah. I saw people do it all the time and I was disgusted by it. Yeah. I mean, you watched me do it. Yeah. And I was disgusted by it. Chicken. Cheese. No, and I was disgusted by it. Chicken, cheese. No, thank you.

Okay. Okay. Here's an exception. What? I like buffalo chicken dip. It's got cheese in it. There you go. But it's not like a piece of chicken with cheese on it.

Oh, what's that? What do I have on the line? A liar. Jesus. piece of chicken with cheese on it. Oh, what's that? What do I have on the line? A liar. Jesus! Jesus! Anyway! Marie had received a $60,000 life

insurance payout from her father's death. Oh, damn. What? That's a lot of money for a kid. It is a lot of money, yeah. So she used that to hire two really well-known defense attorneys in the Fort Worth area. Bill Magnuson and Ward Casey. The name Ward Casey sounds very familiar to me, but I did a quick Google. It's just a cool name.

Yeah, and I couldn't find that I... It's just a cool name. Anyway, they decided that the best defense strategy... Strategy? I have a really decided that the best defense strategy. Strategy? I have a really hard time saying the word strategy. Really? Okay. I wanted to say, like, if I would have kept going, I would have said strategy.

Yeah. That's what I would have said. That would have been a tragedy. It would have been. You know what else is a tragedy? What? Hamlet. Oh. Wow. Verylet. Oh, wow.

Very good. You're welcome. Anyway, so they decided that the best... I didn't say thank you, but... Defense strategy would be to get the jury to believe that Marie didn't know the poison that she had used could kill a person. poison that she had used could kill a person. She'd simply been trying to make her father sick enough that he couldn't take care of her and she'd have to go back and live with her mother. That's pretty weak sauce, man.

I don't know. They thought if they could get the jury to believe this, that maybe they would give her a conviction on manslaughter rather than murder and she'd get a lighter sentence. So the defense attorney told the jury, she only wanted to make her daddy sick. You love the word daddy. She just wanted to go home to mama.

Oh, okay. I hate it. What? I hate it so much. So our boy Skip Hollinsworth attended the entire trial. Naturally. Naturally. He said that the courtroom was packed every day.

One high school civics teacher brought their entire class to sit in during the testimony. He thought it would be really educational. Skip made a note in his article that at one point he looked over and there was one of these high school girls sitting next to him and she was writing a note to her boyfriend that said I am psycho in my love for you. Do you hear my heart pounding? Oh my god.

That is romantic. That's so romantic. So Marie had gotten like her little haircut. You know, they put her in these flowery blouses, you know, tried to do the court makeover, you know, make her, you know, not look too cute. You know, they cut her hair short and wore a headband and all that stuff. Hmm. Okay. It's a tactic. Hmm. Okay. It's a tactic.

Yeah. Okay. To make her, number one, look younger and look plainer as well. Yeah. Yeah. Marie's mother was not allowed in the courtroom during testimony because she was a potential witness. Oh, okay.

And so she could only come in on breaks. And when she did, she came in and she hugged Marie and she was there to support her and whatever. The testimony was really emotional at times. Stephen Robards' dad, Jim Robards, took the stand. And he said that, of course, he was very upset over the death of his son. But that he really believed that Marie should be forgiven or offered a probationary sentence. He said that, you know, she had been through a lot. They brought a psychologist who had examined her on to say that she was suffering from PTSD

and didn't know how to properly express her emotions. And this is kind of what Jim Robard said. He said he didn't blame Marie for what she did. She had been put through something that no kid would know how to deal with. And this shouldn't define her life. I think that's pretty big from someone who lost their child over this. Yeah. In a weird move, like there was this whole plan to put that psychiatrist who had examined

Marie on the stand. His name was Randall Price. He had done several sessions with Marie, but the defense never called him. The prosecution, I believe, called him and he talked a little bit about the post-traumatic stress, but the defense had planned to call him and say that he believed that Marie never wanted her father to die, that that was his assessment over the sessions, but they never did it for some reason. And so the prosecution was kind of left open to just make a lot of assumptions about her mental health. And they talked about how her actions when he was actually like physically dying how she didn't try to help him or tell the paramedics what she had given him or anything that that was a clear sign that she did want him to die not just to be sick

what do you think about that i don't know i think it would be very possible to be like, oh, I'm going to give this to him and he's going to be really sick. And then in the moment when you see that it's actually killed him to just like freeze up and be like, oh, my God, what have I done? But to not necessarily put together, hey, if I tell these professionals exactly what is in his system, they might be able to do something about it. See, and the prosecution believes that she did know that. And they talk about this at the trial because she had pulled the material safety data sheet out of the chemistry lab and brought it home with her. So this is the sheet that tells you exactly what will happen if you ingest this poison and what steps to take to counteract it. She had that was missing from the chemistry lab. Oh, OK. And then they also used her chosen major in college pathology to say to say that she was a great chemistry student. She excelled so much that she'd gone on to seek a profession in pathology. She knew that this particular poison wouldn't be found on a basic toxicology report, wouldn't be traceable in a basic autopsy.

She picked it on purpose. She knew exactly what it would do. She had committed the perfect crime, and she would have gotten away with it had she not told anyone. I think that's pretty compelling. Yeah, the fact that she had that sheet. Absolutely. Yeah.

In the prosecution's closing argument, they said just one stomachache wasn't going to get Marie back to her mama's place. Stephen Robards had to die. The jury deliberated for like an hour. Yeah, there's not much to... Before they convicted Marie of murder. Yeah. So then it was the sentencing phase and the defense decided they needed to have Marie speak at the sentencing. She hadn't testified at the trial, but they wanted to

put her on the stand during the sentencing phase and just have her tell her story, you know, in her own words. And so she did. She took the stand and she was shaking the whole time. Her voice was breaking. And she told the jury that, you know, she'd never broken any law before and that she didn't really know why she'd done it. She just wanted to get back to her mom. And then her defense attorney said, Marie, did you love your dad? And she said, very much. And then he asked her, are you sorry that you killed your dad? And at that time, she just like broke down. She was just sobbing, tears running down her face. And she turned to her grandparents, Stephen's parents, and said, I'm so sorry. I'm so, so sorry. The prosecution told the jury that Marie deserved a life sentence because she had

given her father a death sentence. But the defense asked for probation. They said that she would already be punished enough by having to live with the guilt of her father's death for the rest of her life. What do you think the jury recommended for her sentence? I don't think they did life. They did do life? No, they didn't. You're right. You're right. They recommended a sentence of 28 years, which is what she was sentenced to. In the first few days after her conviction, when she was being held in the county jail before being sent to a prison, conviction when she was being held in the county jail before being sent to a prison. She was placed on suicide watch. During that time, that court-appointed psychiatrist came in and visited her. And she asked him if she could get her college degree while she was in prison. And he was like,

yeah, of course. And she said that it was really important to her that she would spend that time improving herself and she was just going to accept her punishment and move on he said when he went and saw her she was wearing like these this paper outfit which is what they give people who are on suicide watch and she was sitting in this cell and she was just trembling she was shaking because she was so cold and so oh no this psychiatrist was like he's like this is terrible you're cold ask them for clothes you can have clothes they will give you clothes i will tell them that they will that they should give you clothes and she said i don't deserve it i've caused so much suffering this is what i deserve okay that went differently than what did you think

was going to happen i thought that he intending to do something nice like gave her a jacket and then she hung herself oh god oh god yeah no that would be terrible you're right okay anyway yeah well i'm glad that didn't happen initially marie like called her mother collect every single day that she was in prison. And in one conversation, she told her mom that she hoped Stacy didn't feel bad about telling the police what she'd done. She said she hoped that wasn't something that she carried around and that she had really liked Stacy. They'd been best friends. Marie was a model inmate. And in 2003, after serving only seven years of her sentence, she was paroled.

She is believed to be living under a new name and has started a new life and is married. Wow. Yeah. Okay. I've got to look her up she's beautiful marie robards and obviously that's the story of a mother-daughter bond oh gosh yeah she she was beautiful yeah yeah so the majority of that comes from the article Poisoning Daddy by Skip Hollinsworth. Oh, boy, I bet you love that. Okay.

You good, Grandma? I am. All right. You ready for this? Yeah, you gonna talk about a daughter who poisons her dad? No. I'm not that kind of person who delights in those stories. I thought that was a pretty good case that Doreen recommended.

That was a really good case. Yeah. She saw the Forensic Files episode on it. Oh, did she? Yeah. Recommended. Well, to start this off, I need to do a shout out for FamousTrials.com. We love Famous Trials.

We do. Dougie O. Professor Douglas O. Linder, who probably doesn't want us calling him Dougie O., runs that website. And he's got some great write-ups on some trials. Excellent. And this is one of them. Here we go. Okay.

It was April 26, 1983 at Bethel High School in Pierce County, Washington and boy, the whole school was a buzz. Why, you ask? Calm down, I'll tell you. Okay. That day, Bethel High School

was holding its annual student government assembly. That's right, an assembly. Nothing beats an assembly. The energy, the cheering, the pressing up against each other on the bleachers. Yeah, that's not a great part. Depends on who you're pressed up against. Usually you. Oh, you know what?

I had a memory of an assembly sitting next to you. We were, a couple rows in front of us was a girl with like a ton of clips in her hair. Do you remember those like metal ones metal ones that they were kind of... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, everyone. I know you can't see what I'm doing. They're kind of this shaped. Almost like a rounded triangle. They can't see us.

But anyway, they have... Bottom line was, I was like, man, she couldn't get any more of those clips in her hair if she tried. And you said, I knew you were going to say that. That sounds like me. Yep. Yep.

So anyway, that's my memory of assemblies. But this wasn't any old assembly. This was a high-stakes situation. Because during this particular assembly, students nominated one another for student government. Okay. Maybe it's that they were nominating each other. Maybe it's this Matthew guy, like, had to fill in for a friend who wanted to give his own speech. Anyway, you get the gist.

All right. There'd be speech. Sounded like you said you get the gist. What? That's why I thought you said it first, and then I was like, gist. All right. There'd be speech. Sounded like you said you get the gist. What? That's why I thought you said it first. And then I was like, gist. Yes. There's a T.

And then I'm an adult. And so. Uh-huh. You mentioned gist. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Which it looks like I have right here on my shirt.

Yeah. Everybody dripped my lunch on me. I tell you what. Eating with you is kind of like eating with a toddler. I don't get food on myself, like hardly ever. Only in your presence. Oh, so it's on me. I ain't getting so nervous around you.

I'm a star, baby. So, you know, this was a big deal. There'd be speeches. There'd be cheers. Maybe some laughs. Maybe one of the candidates would mock a disabled reporter from the student newspaper. And maybe, like, half the students would vote for that candidate anyway. Not because they were bad people, just because they were sick of the status quo.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway. Uh-huh. Anyone who didn't want to attend the assembly had to go to study hall. status quo. You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway. Anyone who didn't want to attend the assembly had to go to study hall. But who the hell would go to study hall

when you could go to an assembly? I loved assemblies. Me too. Everybody did. They were the best. Oh my god, we had so many good assemblies. My favorite was like when there was homecoming or prom and you got to see all the girls walk out

in their gowns with their updos. It was a big deal. I always loved them when there was a skit. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes the guys they'd walk up and they'd pretend like they had a cactus for the girl to take and she'd be like and had like a cactus for the girl to take. And she'd be like, ah!

And then he'd pull out a bouquet of flowers. Good stuff. That's good stuff. And then he'd throw the cactus to someone else and they'd have to go to the hospital. Anyway. For Matthew Frazier, the stakes were high. For Matthew Frazier, the stakes were high. He was planning to nominate his friend, Jeff Coleman, for Associated Student Body Vice President.

That sounds like a bullshit position. Wow. Very rude to Jeff. I'm just saying. For the occasion, Matthew had prepared a speech. He wrote it rather quickly, but as an enthusiast for the written word myself, I'd say that the speech was quite stirring. He played with word choice, metaphor. He found the areas to pause and the areas to emphasize. It would be a magnificent speech,

perfect for the solemn act of nominating a high school boy to be vice president of Bethel High School. Now, a few of Matthew's teachers heard some of the speech before the assembly, and they didn't care for it. They said it was inappropriate and that he should probably not deliver it and that if he did deliver the speech,

he might face severe consequences. But you know, Brandy, great artists are rarely appreciated in their time. And so young Matthew ignored his haters. And soon, nearly 600 of his peers, most of whom were about 14, assembled for the assembly. The room was alive with energy.

The air smelled of Aquanet, Love's Baby Soft, and designer imposter's perfume for those budget-conscious teens who weren't paying for the label. You look like you're so sick of my shit. I love it. I love your shit, Kristen. Mm-hmm. Soon it came time for Matthew to make his speech. And so he brushed his feathered hair from his face and he adjusted his large tinted glasses. They have the bar across the top. You know they did.

It was the 80s, man. Yes. And he stood before the crowd of hundreds and prepared to tell them about his wonderful friend, Jeff Coleman, who would no doubt make a great, nay, outstanding student body vice president. Here is what young Matthew said that day. Okay, I'm ready. So excited. I know a man who is rock hard. He's firm in his pants. He's firm in his pants. He's firm in his shirt.

His character is firm. But most of all, his belief in you, the students of Bethel, is firm. Jeff Coleman is a man who takes his point and pounds it in. If necessary, he'll take an issue and nail it to the wall. He doesn't attack things in spurts. He drives hard, pushing and pushing until finally... He succeeds. Hold on.

What? Did you write this fucking speech? No. This is legitimately the real speech? This is the real speech. You could have written this. Thank you. I am honored.

Jeff is a man who will go to the very end, even the climax, for each and every one of you. Even the climax for each and every one of you. So please, vote for Jeff Coleman, as he'll never come between us and the best our school can be. Oh my gosh. Reactions? Thoughts? Comments? I love it. If you heard this speech in high school, what would you make of it?

Well, if I was a high school student, I would have thought it was hilarious. What about as an adult woman? Oh, yeah, I would have been very uncomfortable. I'm like, oh, my God, these students are hearing this. This is so inappropriate. The scandal. These parents are going to be pissed. I'm going to get so many angry phone calls.

Well, Matthew's speech really hit home. According to school administrators who witnessed the speech, they said that students in the audience hooted and yelled. Some of them graphically simulated the activities that Matthew alluded to in his speech. Very good, Brandi. Brandi's doing some gestures so that we all know she also knows how to climax. I like some, like... Oh, God.

Did you have to groan? Was that necessary? Yeah, I was getting my point across. I'm suing you. Oh, God. Others sat there confused and maybe a little embarrassed by the speech. Turned on, quite frankly. Too turned on to speak.

That's where I'm at right now. Personally, I'd like to think that those students were merely trying to figure out whether they wanted to vote for a man who was so eager to help them climax. Is that really what they wanted from a student body vice president? Or was that perhaps a job better suited to the treasurer? Yes, I'm sure that's what they were trying to figure out. I just imagine that's what they were trying to figure out. The reaction from the teachers wasn't quite so mixed.

They evidently didn't appreciate a young man who was firm in his pants and firm in his shirts and firm in his beliefs. And so five of them wrote letters to the school administrators describing Matthew's speech and the disruption it had caused. I'm sorry, five teachers wrote or five students wrote? Teachers. Okay. The teachers are the ones who don't appreciate the firmness. The firmness of his pants. Students a little more mixed.

Okay. All right. The next morning, we can only assume that Matthew was greeted with one of these. Matthew Fraser, please report to the principal's office immediately. And everyone around him went, ooh, somebody's in trouble. And once Matthew got to the office, Vice Principal Christy Blair sat him down and she showed him the five letters from the five angry teachers and she was like care to explain yourself and beth you was like i mean yeah i did it i gave the speech it had all the innuendos and he was not ashamed for his speech had been a work of art. But the vice principal, a.k.a.

No Fun McGee, reminded him that Bethel High School had rules, and he'd violated a big one. What? Had he? It was all innuendo! You think you can get up in front of 600 kids and just be

talking about being rock hard in your pants He didn't use any obscenity oh okay okay i'm on matthew's side here oh my god i think it was hilarious i rule it the rule book clearly stated that, quote, Conduct which materially and substantially interferes with the educational process is prohibited, Brandy, including the use of obscene, profane language or gestures. Did he make any gestures? Not that I'm aware of. Then I don't think he's outside the rules.

What about obscenity? He didn't get up there and curse. That's not only what obscenity means. He didn't describe graphically any sex acts. He just... Brandy. He didn't. You'd have to be a dumbass not to know what he was saying.

He's talking about helping everybody climax. Yeah. Because he's so rock hard. They're going to be the best they can be. Climax in high school. My God. Matthew's speech had certainly been disruptive. What a prude, Kristen.

It had disrupted the assembly and one teacher had to spend a portion of their class time discussing Matthew's speech. No, you know what it fucking did? It engaged every student in that auditorium. Oh. Oh, my. Well, in that case, let's all engage in porno talk as long as it keeps the kids engaged.

You know what? Hey, we've got a tip for teachers. If the kids aren't paying attention, just throw porn on. Yeah, that's what I'm fucking saying. I wish you hadn't said that, Brandy. And Brandy, why does it have to be such offensive porn that you're advocating for? So the vice principal handed down Matthew's punishment. He'd be suspended for three days, and he would be removed from the list of candidates for graduation speaker.

Okay. That doesn't seem crazy to me. I'd take my punishment and be like, whatever, I still got to give my speech. Hmm. Interesting. So would you be shocked, surprised that this was the punishment you received? No. I think he knew going in that he was pushing it. And he spoke to a couple of teachers who were like,

Probably shouldn't. Probably shouldn't do that. And he did it anyway. So he knew he'd be facing some consequences. Okay. Well, for the record, Matthew was outraged. Really? Yeah, the punishment wasn't fair. Why did the school administrators have to be so

rigid, so rock hard, so veiny? Matthew felt like they were really giving him a pounding. You did write this. I did write this. You know what's so funny to me? It never even occurred to me that you would think that a speech that a high school boy wrote and got in trouble for would be something that I, an adult woman, would write.

It very closely matched your sense of humor. It absolutely does. I mean, that's why it shouldn't have been surprising that you would just stop me and be like, is this real or is this just a joke? It's all very real, I assure you. His fellow students were on his side. They loved the speech. Jeff Coleman won his election in a landslide. Matthew was a hero for having the courage to discuss boners at an assembly.

I'll ask you something, Brandy. When you're a hero and the man tries to get you down, do you lay down and take it? No. Or do you fight for your right to tell a bunch of 14-year-olds that your friend is rock hard for them? Huh? Yeah, you've got to fight for your right to go ahead and finish it. Bye. Bye. Obviously, the answer is the latter.

And not one of those steppy ones. It's the second thing I said. So Matthew appealed his punishment through the powers that be in the school district. And the hearing officer was like, I'm sorry, you said a guy was firm in his pants in a school assembly and you expected, what, zero consequences? No, we can't have that. described Matthew's speech as, quote, indecent, lewd, and offensive to the modesty and decency of many of the students and faculty in attendance at the assembly. Okay, let's calm the fuck down. It was indecent, lewd, and offensive, Brandy.

Pfft. Pfft. lewd and offensive, Brandy. Okay, so my thought is like, okay, unclutch those pearls. Yeah. But also, yeah, you do this. You know you're going to get in trouble. Yes. Come on. Yes, that's the only part

I disagree with at this point. It's like, yeah, you know you were going to get in trouble. And you really think that you're going to be allowed to then go give another speech? No, of course not. No. Of course not. Yeah, you wrote a hilarious speech. Yes, hats off to you.

Yes. But you're in high school. Yeah, you're done now. You don't get to give any more speeches. And, wow, you went out with a bang. Brandi, you will be suspended for three days. It was obscene

and had absolutely violated the school rules. Matthew was bummed. He'd lost the argument, so he was suspended for two days, but on the third day, he was allowed to come back. And you're probably thinking, cool story, seems like it should be done here.

But you're wrong, because Matthew was firm in his beliefs and firm in his pants, and he knew that the school district had made a grave error. Oh, I just bumped the mic. I was so excited. But, okay, this is dumb. No, it's over now. No, it's not. I assure you, it is not. So Matthew, you know what he did next? He looked himself in the mirror and he said, let's go to court. Why?

Because Matthew Frazier's right to free speech had been violated. Sorry, I had a real aggressive itch on my belly there. You did. Man, what's going on over there? You rolling some poison ivy? I know that's your kink. You're the one who likes it on your anus. Okay, you know what?

People are going to believe that that's true. Mm-hmm. No, so, okay. Pausing. Yeah. I think this is fucking ridiculous. Yes. To go to court for this. Yes, this is dumb. Youusing. Yeah. I think this is fucking ridiculous. Yes. You should go to court for this.

Yes, this is dumb. You did your punishment. Now you're back to your regularly scheduled. Sorry. Brandy's dentures got a little loose there. What if these were dentures? It would make sense. They're really beautiful.

All this time I was like, yeah, these are just my beautiful teeth. Never had a cavity. And then one day, my teeth just fell out on my computer. Okay. Okay.

Truthfully, truthfully, I would die inside. Because it's like, oh my gosh, she has always made such a big thing about her teeth.

And now I know that it was all a lie. And like, she, she has always made such a big thing about her teeth, and now I know that it was all a lie. And, like, she might just end it here now that those things have popped out. That would be terrible. I would feel terrible for you. So, you know, they went to court. Okay. How do you think this played out? What I would think would happen, but it can't be the case because then you wouldn't be covering it,

is a judge would look at it and be like, no, get out of my courtroom. Goodbye. Well, the exact opposite happened. The district court sided with Matthew. They were like, yeah, the school district violated Matthew's right to free speech. Also, their disruptive conduct rule is unconstitutionally vague and overboard. I was going to say, it's super fucking vague. They could apply that to anything.

Okay, but I think most rules have to be kind of vague, right? I mean, what are we going to... It's real vague. Okay, what should it say then? Well, because it says... Now I can't remember the exact wording, but I remember when you read it, I was like, wow, that leaves it really vague. They can tailor that to anything and they can go back and say anything violates that. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is pretty vague.

Yeah. Maybe it makes me happy to rub your anus on poison ivy. But maybe it also makes you happy. How are you getting possession of my anus? I'm just picking you up like a baby. Rubbing you against the earth like the end of a pencil. Just like a razor. By removing Matthew's...

I keep my anus locked down pretty tight. I hear the security guard goes for a smoke break every now and then. By removing Matthew's name from the list of commencement speakers, the school district had violated his right to due process under the 14th Amendment. And that's because if being removed as a commencement speaker was a possible punishment they should have mentioned it as a possibility but they didn't they sprung in on him and that was wrong this is so stupid that's so dumb yeah okay okay the court awarded matthew frazier 278 dollars adjusted for inflation 758 dollars

and almost 13 grand in attorney's fees yeah and boy oh boy matthew marched happily off into the sunset thanks firm as ever. Thanks to a... No, that was his friend. Matthew was quite... Oh, you know what? I shouldn't say any more. These were teenage boys. Stop objectifying these teenage boys, Kristen.

You're a 35-year-old woman. But I look 32. That makes it no better. So thanks to a write-in vote, his classmates nominated him as a graduation speaker. And so he got to give a speech at graduation. No, really? Yes. Oh.

Can you? No, I can't believe that. What? Yeah. And again, oh, this wasn't mentioned as a possible punishment. You go up and you give a speech like this, which, again, I think is hilarious. It's hilarious, yes. I love the speech.

I love it. But, yeah, you don't get to give any more speeches now. Yeah. That's your swan song. You're done, you know. And then you can sit in a bar 20 years from now and be like, remember that time when I did that great thing? Would you like to hear his graduation speech? I sure would.

Okay. So he got up there, brushed his feathered hair back, adjusted those tinted sunnies, and he said, okay, I'm going to wait for you to finish drinking. Okay, I'm ready. wait for you to finish drinking. Okay, I'm ready. He said, no shit. There once was a man from Nantucket whose dick was so big he could suck it. He said with a grin as he wiped off his chin, if my ear were a cunt, I would fuck it. Are you fucking kidding?

No. He said that. He really did that? No. Okay. Jesus. I have no that limerick? No. Okay. Jesus. I have no idea what he said at graduation. I wish I knew.

I just Googled dirty joke. Yeah, that's like the most famous limerick. Thank you. And I wrote it. You did that. For this very podcast. I never knew how it ended, though. Because everybody does it as a joke, but they only... Yeah only yeah yeah there's a lot of different ways it can go so here's the thing the school district was pissed they were like are you serious so a kid can stand

up in an assembly and just say whatever the fuck they want, and we, as the adults, can't punish the kid? We can't have rules? Have y'all ever been around teenagers? That's it. We are taking this thing to the court of appeals. Okay. Yeah, I would appeal it. Absolutely!

Yeah. Because think of the consequences. Yeah. Literally, a kid can say anything. Yeah. And there are no consequences. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

I think they just got to get more specific with those rules. Well, like what? Like specific, you have to define obscenity and define lewdness. To define obscenity and define lewdness. How do you define obscenity? I think it would have to be more explicit than what he did. Because everything he did was, like you said, innuendo. It was implied. It was, yeah, said, innuendo. It was implied.

It was, yeah, it was wordplay. Yeah. I think he'd have to get up there and say the fucking limerick. Yeah. And be like, yes, that's one. Absolutely. That's obscene. That crosses the line. Yes.

The one before it. You're on the line. Yes. Yeah. Your toe's right there. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Yes, yeah. Your toe's right there. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Okay.

Yeah. So at this stage, both sides talked a ton about another court case, Tinker versus the Des Moines Independent Community School District. The Tinker case was huge, and I'm going to give you, like, the CliffsNotes version. Basically, a group of kids who wanted to protest the Vietnam War decided to wear black armbands to school.

They didn't say anything. They didn't do anything. They didn't get violent. They just wore black armbands to protest the war. And the school district handled this horribly. They flipped out, suspended the kids. I mean, it's so stupid. The case went all the way to the United States.

Supreme Court! And the majority of the court sided with the kids. They were like, yeah, it's just armbands. Yeah, they're like, students don't lose their rights to free speech the second they walk into a public school. That doesn't mean they can say anything, but the school administrators need a really good reason to censor them. The majority opinion read that school officials, quote, must be able to show that their action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness

that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Which is funny because looking back, we can all agree that the Vietnam War was a great thing and was handled beautifully. The armbands weren't some major disruption, and the kids had rights, and the school officials had been wrong. So, yeah, but if you let those armbands in, what about those kids that want to wear swastikas on their armbands? Where do you draw the line, Kristen? Yuck.

Yeah. Gross. I hate it. See, here's what I would say to that. A swastika is going to be a hell of a lot more disruptive. Yes, absolutely. But that's the argument, I feel like. People are like, well, if you're going to let those armbands. But that's the argument I feel like.

People are like, well, if you're going to let those armbands in, what about the next arm? Yeah. What if, you know, you're not going to let them wear swastika armbands, are you? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Question for you. Mm-hmm.

Black armbands. Yeah. You're cool with that, right? Yeah. What about a jacket that says, fuck the draft? No, because there's obscene language on it. There you go. Yeah.

Okay, that was another case that was kind of discussed. Yeah. Back to the case at hand. And I'll thank you not to sidetrack me with your limericks. At the appellate court level, both sides, the school district and Matthew Frazier, were talking about the Tinker case. And Matthew's legal team, which at some point the ACLU got involved. It might have been, you know, right at the start. His team was like, oh, yeah, this is just like those Tinker kids and their harmless little armbands. They were just expressing their political opinions.

And so was Matthew when he gave that speech. The Supreme Court already weighed in on this, so I don't even know why we're talking about it now. Let's all get out of here and hit up the mug and munch, am I right? But the school district's legal team was like, um, hold the phone. The Tinker kids wore little black armbands and didn't say anything. Matthew Frazier, on the other hand, gave a lewd speech filled with indecent language to a captive audience of minors at a school-sponsored event.

Those are not the same. One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong. I would agree that they're different. Well, yeah. Hell yeah, they're different. But you know who disagrees with you? The Supreme Court.

We're not there yet. Keep your pants on. The appeals court. Doesn't quite have the same ring. Yeah, the court of appeals disagreed with the school district. They were like, what we have here are twinsies. Black armbands? Telling a bunch of 14-year-olds that your friend is rock hard?

Same thing! Can't tell them apart! They're so similar! Also, who are you, school district, to decide what discourse is decent and indecent? The appellate court said that giving the school district unbridled discretion to determine what is decent would, quote, increase the risk of cementing white middle class standards for determining what is acceptable and proper speech and behavior in our public schools. Mm hmm. Hmm. and proper speech and behavior in our public schools. They're coming close to getting me on that.

Yeah. I will say that. But no, I feel like anywhere, any race, any class, you're going to punish the kid for getting up and doing a bunch of innuendos in a speech. Like, you're not just allowed to do that. Although, I am white and middle class, so maybe I shouldn't weigh in, you know? What do you think? I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, I kind of. I'm really torn. Because of an accident? Yeah. Two different directions there. You sure did. Which is why I'm torn. This podcast is not good. It's full of lewd comments.

An innuendo. That's true. An obscenity. But in our defense, after each episode airs, we suspend ourselves for three days. And then we get back to it. And we don't complain about it either. No, we do the time. And we don't give about it either. That's right. No, we do the time. And we don't give any speeches in the meantime.

So at this point, the school district was like, okay, this is officially coconuts. So they took this case all the way to the United States. A pillow court. That was really rude how you did that. It's all raring to go. Supreme Court! I'm sorry, I could not resist. By this point, Matthew was in college at UC Berkeley, and he was fascinated by this whole thing.

He loved it. He was getting a front row education on the inner workings of the court system, thanks to his little speech about big dongs. But you know what they say, Brandy. All good things must come to an end. And fact check, he never mentioned the size of anyone's dong. Just the firmness. Just the firmness, yeah.

He didn't oversell or undersell anyone. And for that, I admire him greatly. In a 7-2 opinion, the Supreme Court was like, are you guys for real? There's a big

difference between the political message that the Tinker kids conveyed silently with their armbands and the sexual innuendos in Matthew Frazier's speech. And by the way, appellate court, when you decided that this case was just like the Tinker case, you kind of glossed over the part in the Tinker ruling where the court ruled that the armbands did not intrude upon the rights of other students.

But in this case, there were like 600 kids in the room that day just being violated, penetrated, subjugated. Sorry, just spat. And those kids had a right to not hear such juvenile sexual innuendos. Could he have just played dumb? No, come on. I know a guy who's rock hard.

Yeah. Yeah. That would be hilarious. Right? Like, what? I don't understand what you're talking about. yeah that would be hilarious right like what I don't I don't understand what you're talking about oh my god gross what are you saying what are you saying

vice principal Christy please explain it to me explain what you thought I meant and she would have been like never mind please everyone could have saved themselves a ton of time. The court talked a lot about how part of the job of a public school is to teach students the habits and manners of civility. Yes, we can disagree. Yes, we can have political debates.

But you can't subject others to your jackassery. That's a direct quote. I doubt that. Even in Congress, there's protocol for telling another congressperson that they've crossed the line. Fun fact, when Thomas Jefferson wasn't busy raping enslaved women, he wrote some rules about how there can't be indecent language in the House of Representatives. Yes to slavery. No to bad words. I'm getting sidetracked. But my point is, the real world has rules and so should public schools and school officials

should have the authority to enforce the rules. Okay. It is totally normal and expected that a school would prohibit the use of vulgar and offensive terms. Duh. Yeah. Then the court hit below the belt. They insulted the content of Matthew's comedy routine. What'd they say?

They wrote, It wasn't even that funny, and the audio quality was quite bad. They wrote it wasn't even that funny and the audio quality was quite bad. They wrote I tried. I really did. I really did. This was recommended to me. And I have

since slapped the recommender in the face. They said, quote, the pervasive sexual innuendo in Frazier's speech was plainly offensive to both teachers and students. Indeed,

to any mature person. I wasn't offended by it. I thought it was hilarious. I know. That's why I was personally offended by this opinion. Any mature person. That's funny. It's funny.

Come on. It is. They also said by glorifying male sexuality and in its verbal content, the speech was acutely insulting to teenage girl students. Was it? I don't know because he's going to fuck every single one of those kids. Regardless of gender. See, that's their heteronormativity.

That is. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's going to help all of them climax. Yeah. Okay. Regardless of gender identity.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why Jeff Coleman made such a great vice president. They also wrote, the speech could well be seriously damaging to its less mature audience, many of whom were only 14 years old and on the threshold of awareness of human sexuality. Brandy just mimicked jerking off.

No 14-year-old was shocked by that speech. It seriously damaged more like it, right? No, there was nothing they haven't heard in the hallway every day. Interesting that you should say that. In a dissenting opinion,urgood marshall wrote that he agreed with most of what the majority said but not that last part yeah yeah because he'd recently heard of a young girl who at 14 years old named her vagina last so clearly she wasn't on the threshold of awareness of human sexuality.

She was deep in the thick of it. That girl's name? Brandy Egan. I think it's so cool that Thurgood Marshall mentioned you in an opinion. No, what he said, and I didn't go too far into the dissenting opinions, but in one of the dissenting opinions, they were like, you know, back in my day, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn was like super wildly offensive. Like, let's all calm down. Yeah. So, in other words, the court was like, yeah, this speech was out of line.

It was too sexy. Got us all steamed up under the robes. And therefore, the school had the right to punish Matthew. And hot damn, we can't believe this kid sued over this. I wonder if he'll turn out to be a bit of a douche. That's what those are. I can't even agree with that. Yeah, well, in 2001, Matthew was interviewed about his legal battle for the Freedom Forum Institute.

At the time, he was a debate coach at Stanford. Was he like a master debater? Brandy, please don't be lewd. You're causing me serious damage. Because while I may look 32, I'm actually 35. You're still developing sexually. I'm on the verge. I'm actually 35. You're still developing sexually. I'm on the verge. I'm just on the cusp of developing.

So he maintained that the Supreme Court had gotten it all wrong. He said, quote, There should be a heightened level of protection for speech in a student assembly. If there is any hour in the entire year that is entitled to the protections of the First Amendment, Okay. Dude, you gave, like, a speech about boners. Yeah. Calm down. Yeah. Like, calm down. Yeah.

Yeah, that's my thing. It's like, oh, God. But if we don't protect the boner speech, then we can't protect the other types of... I know. I mean, I thought the speech was hilarious and I loved it. But, yeah, I would have just done the punishment and, like, that would have been it. Yeah. And you wouldn't, 15 years later, as a grown- grown ass man be like, you gotta protect boner speeches.

Supreme Court got it wrong. I was right the whole time. I know. Also, I thought they were kind of unprepared. That's the other thing he said was he felt like the Supreme Court justices were kind of unprepared. Oh, the Supreme Court justices were. Okay.

Sure thing, buddy. Yeah. Assuming my Google skills are up to snuff he's now the executive director of like a summer camp thing anyway uh and that's the story of a speech that went too far brandy i loved it i loved it too that was so funny yeah Yeah. But yeah, I think the lawsuit's stupid. I think so, too. I mean, but this is like a, it's a very important case in. If you're going to fight for free speech, you've got to fight for the kooky things, too.

Isn't that what your journalism teacher taught you? Yeah. Yeah. It includes boner speeches. Got to fight for those boner speeches. Gotta fight for those boner speeches. Yeah, the thing is, like... And the Supreme Court mentioned this. I feel like this always comes up anytime someone's like,

freedom of speech, I can say whatever I want. It's like, yeah, and the federal government... Government can't, yeah, the government can't come for you for what you say. But yeah, the school that you're in can have a punishment for it. The business that you're doing it in can have, yes. I loved the speech. I'm very torn from there. Because I think the lawsuit is stupid. It created complicated feelings for me, too.

Because initially you're like, okay, come on, school administrators, just cool. And then you're like, all right, kid, why don't you cool it? Yeah, you cool it. I really enjoyed that. Thank you very much. You're welcome. I'm glad I could give you something so hard. Shall we take questions from our Discord?

Yeah, how do you get in there? Hell if I know. That was a hilarious joke. Yeah, it was very good. That went too far. No, you sign up at the $5 level on our Patreon. That gets you into the Discord. It gets you a monthly bonus episode.

It gets you nothing beyond that. But, you know, if you want more stuff, you sign up at the higher level. You know the drill. Absolutely, I do. Okay, roll it down. When I smell it, wants to know what products have you purchased from an infomercial. Have you ever purchased an infomercial product? I'm sure that I have.

I bet you have, too. I love asking on TV stuff. Yeah. When I was growing up, we had the Showtime rotisserie, but I didn't purchase that. Right. My parents did. We also had that food dehydrator thing. My parents used to make jerky all the time.

Really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's also pretty good. What have I bought that's been an as seen on TV thing? I'm sure something. I know.

You love. I love infomercials. I'm sure something. I know. You love. I love infomercials. I know you do. Yeah. And then I love to go like, so Walgreens has like an as seen on TV section. Love to go in there and look at that stuff. I got David a cup call. What's that?

It's like a phone holder that goes in your cup holder. Wait. Oh. It's like a phone mount. Uh-huh. But it just sits in your cup holder. Oh. It's called a cup call.

It was on clearance. David saw the commercial and really liked it. And then he was like, oh, maybe I want to get one of those. And then it was $20. And he was like, I don't $20 like it. And then one day it was 50% off at Walgreens, so I bought it for him. You're a hero. That's right.

Veronica H. wants to know, is a giant beanbag an acceptable piece of furniture for a grown adult? Asking for a friend. I think it depends on where you have it. In your main living room? Maybe not. In like a hangout, like rec room? Absolutely. Okay.

Norman got really mad at me recently. got really mad at me recently because when we first got married the thing he wanted most in the world was a bean bag for his office. But his bean bag in our first house was like, I'm sorry, his bean bag

his office was like just telling you about my husband's bean bag. Everybody calm down. This bag. Everybody calm down. I can't. This is offensive to any mature person. Everyone, Brandy's confused. She's bewildered even because she doesn't

understand what I mean. My Norman's bean bag. Anyway, I didn't want him to have his beanbag hanging out in the first room you saw in our house. You know what I'm saying, Brandi? You don't want to walk into a house and see a man's beanbag straight away. That's more of a bedroom thing or maybe a hangout room thing. Right? Am I right?

You're absolutely right. Well, the other day, I saw this it looks fucking awesome. It doesn't really look like a beanbag but it's like this gigantic thing. It's just a gigantic beanbag. And I want to jump in it so bad. And it's kind of

expensive. And I was like, is it a love sack? Yeah, it's the love sack! Oh my god! I want one for the basement! Yes! And I was like, hey, what do you think of that? And he was like, are you serious? Yeah, you wouldn't let me have my beanbag out in the office

and now you want one for the basement? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So anyway. It's a fair argument. No, it's not! No, you are asking to put it in a completely different room. You should fucking get that thing. I want one so bad. I want one really bad, too.

So my parents have a very big oversized bean bag in their basement. So when we come over, because they've got a lot of seating and the workroom area. And then Jack always lays in the bean bag when we're all playing games and stuff in their basement. Is that the end of that story? It's the whole story. They got it specifically because they thought Jack would think it was cool, and he does. I wasn't asking for more of the story. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Wagon Hitched Douchebag says, where do you fall on the choogy scale? Oh, I'm super choogy. What's that mean? I'm sorry. I just spat. What's choogy? Let me look up the definition for you. Choogy can be used broadly to describe someone who is out of date or trying too hard. And while a lot of choogy things are associated with millennial women,

the term can be applied to anyone of any gender and any age. And the example on Urban Dictionary is, my friend told me to change out of my favorite pair of Miss Me jeans because they were choogy. I'm pretty choogy. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. We'm pretty cheugy. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. We're both pretty cheugy. Things that are decidedly un-cheugy. Okay. All right. These are the things that make you un-cheugy. Let's see if we have any of these. Thrifting.

No, I don't go thrifting. No, I don't go thrifting. Smells bad. Making your own clothes. No. No. Handmade products? Do you make your own soaps and stuff?

You know, I used to do some of that stuff, but it's never as good as just the stuff you buy. Levi jeans? No. No. Birkenstocks? I got a couple pairs of those. I've been thinking about that. That doesn't count.

That doesn't count. Home got a couple pairs of those. I've been thinking about that. That doesn't count. That doesn't count. Home decor bought somewhere other than Target. Okay, I definitely have that. Yeah. Looking good for yourself and not caring what other people think. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Yeah, I don't know where I fall on that. Okay, I have to clarify this because this is my favorite story. And this someone, this person just doesn't, clearly didn't understand what I was explaining. AJ Beers says, on an old episode, Brandy mentioned a weird interaction with a guy at her salon. She asked what he wanted done. He didn't know. She asked what his hair was like before. He said he didn't know because he'd never been there before.

And then that story ended. Okay, so that's not what happened. Do you remember this story? Okay, so the man came in. So this A.J. Beers goes on to say, the story just ended. I love closure. What did he end up wanting? How did you cut it?

Was he happy with it? Did he ever come back? Okay, none of that stuff matters. That's not the funny part of the story. The part of the story that's important is that he came in, he sat down in my chair and I said, how would you like your haircut today? And he didn't really know. And so then I asked him how he'd got it cut in the past. And again, he didn't really know. And so I said, you know, did they use clippers on you? Did they use scissors?

And his answer was, I don't know. I'm not from around here. As if that somehow clarified that to me. You see, he's from Nebraska. And in Nebraska, they just run a lawnmower over their hair. That's ridiculous. Yes. So, yes, he didn't know if he used clippers or trimmers or scissors or how much he got cut off or how long it had been since his last haircut because he wasn't from around here, which can only mean he was an alien.

Yeah, he was an alien. It was his first day on this planet, and you interacted with him. Yes. Okay, here's Artie Bartz back with a would you rather. Okay. Would you rather have to wear a belt made from salted nipples? Oh, no.

Made by the one-of-a a kind designer, Ed Gein. Uh-huh. Every day for one week and have to tell at least one random person about it as well as show it to them. Oh, no. Or be required to have a day of treatments from Dr. Hazard, including one of her hour-long enemas and her one-hour head-beating massages. That's the Starvation Heights doctor. Yeah, yeah.

I would wear the nipple belt. I would, too. Oh, God. Yeah, it's a dark one. Yeah, because at least then I survive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, salted nipples for a week it is.

But you know what I'd have to do? If I have to tell one person about it, I would have to every day go to like some other place in town. Oh, yeah. And, you know, like, okay, I'm never going to see this person again. Better tell them about my salted nips. Yeah. Oh. I don't think it's made of your salted nips, just for.

If I own the belt of it. at Nips just for... If I own the belt at Nips. Dirty Slut Goblin would like to know is Stranger Things in the horror genre asking for yeet-haw? Yeah, I'd call it in the horror genre. Who the hell's yeet-haw? It's someone else in the...

Oh, okay. Like, who is this fucking yeet-haw and why are we asking questions for them? Well, I was just like... you know, sometimes somebody says a name and it's like, am I supposed to? Is Yeet-Ha famous? No. Is he a yodeler? I would say that Stranger Things is absolutely in the horror genre.

It's also in the sci-fi genre. It's like. in the sci-fi genre. It's like... Do you think my hand gesture was important there? Probably. People are going to be like, what the fuck are they doing? Well, they'll never know.

Kiehl's Mkfm. What? Kiehl's Mkf. So obviously it's Kiehl's MKF. Uh-huh. What are your thoughts on men that say women don't poop? Run from those. Yeah, absolutely.

Guaranteed to be a bad time with that guy, I promise you. What's that? Hold up. What do you got? Stormin Norman wants to know, I know Brandy is against the Diva Cup, but have you ever tried the Bloody Buddy? Is that a real thing? What the hell is that? Is that real? I'm not against the Diva Cup. I'm scared

of the Diva Cup. She protests the Diva Cup on the weekends. The Bloody Buddy. Jesus. Let's look this up. It's shipping now. It just looks like a diva cup it's patent pending features make the bloody buddy cup a perfect choice for beginners or experts how do you achieve experts

i feel like i'm just a few points away at my side. Yeah, I don't... Okay. I'm scared of these things. Hot asthmatic Subaru cat owner wants to know, best baked potato toppings? Okay. People are going to hate this. What do you like. Best baked potato toppings? Okay. People are going to hate this. What do you like on your baked potato?

My favorite combination. Cottage cheese and salt and pepper. I know. I know. Ew, you monster. I know. I know. I know it's a weird thing. It's from childhood. You have kept that a secret because I never knew that about you.

You most certainly have. Sorry. And you blocked it out. Because I know we had baked potatoes all the time growing up. Yeah, we certainly did. I never saw you put cottage cheese on one ever. That's not the truth. Because my mom did it all the time.

Oh, my gosh. That is alarming. I must have blocked that out. That sounds horrifying. It's delicious. I doubt it. I don't know what to tell you. I must have blocked that out. That sounds horrifying. It's delicious. I doubt it. I don't know what to tell you. I doubt it.

Well, you know how I like cottage cheese with the potato chips? Yeah, I know. I mean, it's kind of... Yeah. Kind of same deliciousness, if you ask me. I like my baked potato with chili on it. Oh, kind of a basic bit, huh? You're a real chuga. What's that word? Chugi.

Chugi. Real chugi to put chili on there. The cool kids are putting cottage cheese on it. I doubt that very much. They're going to start it up because some cool podcaster, influencer told them to. Calling yourself an influencer now.

Yeah, I'm definitely an influencer. I've influenced. Are you listening to this? Put some cottage cheese on your potato. Boom. Influenced. I think on that note, we should move to Supreme Court inductions because I can't talk to you anymore, right? Why?

Because I've influenced you and now you have to go get a potato with cottage cheese on it? No. I thought so. No. I thought so. Nope. Doesn't it get hot? What do you mean?

The cottage cheese? No. You know, it stays pretty cool. I mean, you eat it right away because it's so delicious. You don't let it sit. tastes pretty cool. I mean, you eat it right away because it's so delicious. You don't let it sit. Has Norm seen you do this?

Oh, yeah. He thinks it's disgusting. He hates cottage cheese, so I can't imagine that this wouldn't just be the most horrifying thing ever to him. Yeah, he does not understand it. He is not a fan at all. Oh, my God.

But you know, haters gonna hate. I'm just like Matthew Frazier with those school administrators trying to keep him down. You're just firm in your pants and your beliefs. I would say so. Anyway. Anyway. Anyway, on to Supreme Court Attactions! To get into the Supreme Court, you have to sign up at the $7 level on our Patreon.

There's no other way to get in. That's right. Unless you sign up at the $10 level. This week, we are reading your names and your favorite cookies. Christine Martin. My mother's homemade shortbread. Mallory.

Banana Chut. Banana nut chocolate chip cookies. Those banana Chuts are great. I love a good banana Chut. Marissa Tani Thaler. Soft homemade chocolate chip. Pants. Soft in Tani Thaler. Soft homemade chocolate chip pants. Sorry, I shouldn't mess up people's inductions. Soft homemade chocolate chip. Erin Robinson. Girl Scout Thin Mints. Melanie Kleinsorge. Thin Mints. Amy O'Donoghue. Nairns? Coconut and dark chocolate oatmeal?

Nairns? Nairns? That sounds like hair removal. That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. Amy, do you have any hair inside your mouth? Nope. It's because you're eating Nairn.

Sorry, that was lame. Patty, make sure to leave that in so everybody hears how lame this is. Take it out. I just ruined my status as an influencer. Jessica Pappin. My grandma's no-bake chocolate oatmeal cookies. Sarah Shirley. Chocolate chip.

Brandy Louder. What has no one ever said ever? Cream cheese cookies. What is a cream cheese cookie? I don't know It's one of those things that doesn't sound good but it's probably delicious It really is Jay Judd

Your mom Jay says he'll win the your mom battle with this one Okay I hope he won Aaron Durr Snickerdoodles Zoe Pasternak Kona cookie Emmy Johnson Snickerdoodles. Zoe Pasternak. Kona Cookie. Emmy Johnson.

Snickerdoodle. Jordan Gaylord. Lemon shortbread with lemon icing. That sounds amazing. August. They gave us like an explanation of how to pronounce it. Like ah shucks, but aw guns. White chocolate macadamia.

Amanda H. Pumpkin oatmeal chocolate chip. That's like the second person who's had that. That sounds terrible. That's weird. We've never had it, though. We're probably being dicks. Yeah, we probably are.

But that sounds disgusting. Ryan O. Oatmeal rum raisin. Sarah Weeblehouse. Archway lemon cookies. Ryan O. Oatmeal Rum Raisin. Sarah Weeblehouse. Archway Lemon Cookies. Taylor D. Chocolate Junk. Andrew.

Seed'em Pull. Chocolate Chip. Yumiko S. Pumpkin Snickerdoodle Whoopie Pies. Ooh, that sounds good. Welcome to the Appellate Court. Stop it. Supreme Court. Thank everyone for all of your support

we appreciate it so much oh so much you asshole you're the one who said it weird I didn't I mean to anyway I probably did anyway I mean if you guys are looking for other ways to support us or whatever, that'd be cool, too. We're on Facebook.

We're on Twitter. We're totally chill. We're totally cool. We're on Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, you know, if you're into that kind of thing. We're just sitting here in our Levi's and Birkenstocks. Apple podcast. And if you feel like it, leave us a five-star rating and review.

And then, you know, it'd be cool if you joined us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the website FamousTrials.com, Wikipedia, an article for the Freedom Forum Institute, and a video from the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education. I got my info from an article by Skip Hollinsworth for Texas Monthly, an article for Medium by Delaney R. Bartlett, and an episode of Forensic Files. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com.

Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.